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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bloomberg Law Podcast. I'm June Grosso. Every

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Speaker 1: day we bring you insight and analysis into the most

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Speaker 1: important legal news of the day. You can find more

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Speaker 1: episodes of the Bloomberg Law Podcast on Apple podcast, SoundCloud

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Speaker 1: and on Bloomberg dot com slash podcasts. Turning now to

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Speaker 1: a stunning development in Special Counsel Robert Mueller's Russia investigation,

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Speaker 1: the arrest of Roger Stone, a longtime Republican strategist and

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Speaker 1: sometimes confidante of President Trump, for obstruction, witness tampering, and

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Speaker 1: false statements. White House Press Secretary Sarah Sanders responded to

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Speaker 1: a reporter's question about whether the President encouraged any of

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Speaker 1: Stone's alleged illegal activity. That is probably one of the

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Speaker 1: more ridiculous and insulting questions to accuse the President of

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Speaker 1: the United States of asking someone to break the law. Um,

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Speaker 1: that is frankly, it's just insulting. It's just not true.

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Speaker 1: Joining me, is Brad Moss, a partner at Mark sade

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Speaker 1: Brett looking at the indictment of Roger Stone, Tell me,

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Speaker 1: on a scale of one to ten, how important this

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Speaker 1: is for Muller's investigation. This is pretty much what I

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Speaker 1: would say is an eight. You know, the way I

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Speaker 1: read this indictment, this is the speaking indictment. Robert Mueller's

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Speaker 1: team laid out a lot of facts in the background

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Speaker 1: that weren't actually necessary or critical to the underlying charges,

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Speaker 1: which were all processed crimes. It was obstruction, you know,

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Speaker 1: fallse statements, witness tampering. But he provided all this background

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Speaker 1: detail about what Roger Stone was doing during the campaign,

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Speaker 1: in particular how senior officials in the Trump campaign, which

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Speaker 1: as far as later reporting is born out, was Steve Bannon,

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Speaker 1: were directed to coordinate with Stone on all WITCHI Leaks

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Speaker 1: related matters, which of course brings out the question, this

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Speaker 1: is what Mueller is hinting at, who was the person

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Speaker 1: who directed Steve Bennon to coordinate with Stone. There's probably

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Speaker 1: about five people on the planet who could have directed

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Speaker 1: Steve Bennon to do anything. All their last names are

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Speaker 1: either Trump or Cushner. So this is Mueller thinking at

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Speaker 1: what where this is going, hinting at what he's got

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Speaker 1: coming down the pike. He did this indictment, he could

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Speaker 1: obviously amend it a superseding indictment if Roger Stone decided

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Speaker 1: not to cut a deal What the question remains is

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Speaker 1: how much does roger Stone have and what would he

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Speaker 1: be willing to cut a deal for now. Roger Stone

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Speaker 1: came out of court on bond of two fifty thousand dollars.

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Speaker 1: He said that he will not quote their false witness

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Speaker 1: against the President. He did not answer whether or not

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Speaker 1: he would cooperate with the Muller investigation, saying his lawyers

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Speaker 1: hadn't been contacted and he didn't want to address that.

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Speaker 1: Do things change when you've been arrested? Absolutely, your calculus changes.

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Speaker 1: And this is even the first time we've heard stuff

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Speaker 1: like this from a Trump associate member. What Michael Cohen

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Speaker 1: used to say, I'll take up bullet for the president.

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Speaker 1: You know what, the moment indictment show up, the moment

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Speaker 1: you faced the prospect of time in a four by

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Speaker 1: four cell without your freedom, your calculus changes. Roger Stone

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Speaker 1: is not a young man anymore. He's sixty six years old.

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Speaker 1: He doesn't want to spend it twilight years in a

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Speaker 1: four by four cell. Once the shock of this immediate

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Speaker 1: moment has worn off, and the prosecution team from Mueller's

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Speaker 1: office coordinates with his defense attorneys and lays out a

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Speaker 1: lot of their evidence, a lot of which I bet

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Speaker 1: you is not in this indictment. Yet, there will be

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Speaker 1: a choice for Roger Stone to make. Is it worth it?

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Speaker 1: Is he ready to take the fall or is he

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Speaker 1: going to cooperate? No, one's going to ask him to lie.

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Speaker 1: If he's got reliable, legitimate, corroborated material evidence he can

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Speaker 1: provide Mueller's team, they'll take it the look to cut

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Speaker 1: him a deal. If he doesn't have anything, there's no

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Speaker 1: deal to be made. And that's alway always the sixty

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Speaker 1: four dollar question. Roger Stone loves the blow viate, he

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Speaker 1: loves the hype. He may not actually have anything else

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Speaker 1: to provide, and if that's the case, then he's going

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Speaker 1: to go to jail. What about his contacts with wiki links?

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Speaker 1: There's no specific charge related to that. Correct. What was

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Speaker 1: laid out in the factual background provided some of the

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Speaker 1: elements of where you could see a potential criminal charge

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Speaker 1: or two coming down the pike. There's a potential for

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Speaker 1: because of the outlined how the campaign, specifically senior campaign

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Speaker 1: officials are directly using Stone as an intermediary to get

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Speaker 1: advanced knowledge and the coordinate production of hacked materials from

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Speaker 1: wiki leaks. There's a potential criminal conspiracy charge they're regarding

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Speaker 1: campaign finance felonies in terms of securing something of value

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Speaker 1: from a foreign national aid Julian Assange for the purpose

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Speaker 1: of influencing the election. And there's a potential criminal conspiracy

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Speaker 1: to defraud the United States charge in terms of interfering

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Speaker 1: in the administration of the election by bringing in hacked

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Speaker 1: illegally hacked information. These are two potential criminal conspiracy charges

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Speaker 1: that could be brought out in superseding indictments. What remains

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Speaker 1: to be seen is what else does Mohler have. Does

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Speaker 1: he believe he's got enough to actually make that charge

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Speaker 1: stick as a matter of law and in court, and

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Speaker 1: is he holding on that is leverage to try to

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Speaker 1: see if Stone will crack and will make a deal

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Speaker 1: to cooperate. Now, Stone's arrest was different from the other

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Speaker 1: arrest in the Mueller investigation. FBI agents arriving at dawn

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Speaker 1: than executing a search warrant, and when he was outside

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Speaker 1: the courthouse he said he was terrorized. Of course, he

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Speaker 1: also said that FBI agents were extraordinarily courteous. What does

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Speaker 1: it say that Muller did not allow him to turn

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Speaker 1: himself in. They had a real legitimate fear, as outlined

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Speaker 1: in motion that was separately filed. What's why the indictment

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Speaker 1: was originally under sealed. They had a legitimate fear that

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Speaker 1: roger Stone would run, that he would destroy evidence, that

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Speaker 1: he would flee. And roger Stone, because of his reputation,

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Speaker 1: he is the political dirty tricks guy. He's not Paul Manafort,

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Speaker 1: He's not RICKI. Roger Stone's ethos is m O is

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Speaker 1: dirty tricks. The government could not take that risk. What

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Speaker 1: the public saw with that pre don raid, that is

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Speaker 1: not you sual. But it's not unusual either. That happens

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Speaker 1: a lot in various criminal cases. It happens when you

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Speaker 1: have a suspect that you can't risk them fleeing, you

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Speaker 1: can't risk them destroying evidence. The amount of people involved,

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Speaker 1: that's entirely routine. It doesn't happen a lot with white

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Speaker 1: collar criminals. Tends to happen for more blue collar, more

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Speaker 1: drug related or gun related charges. But it is still

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Speaker 1: a normal part of police enforcement. You just don't see

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Speaker 1: it every day. And so people went, oh, my lord,

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Speaker 1: it's so shocking. No, it's really not. Roger Stone did

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Speaker 1: not answer questions about whether he was waiting for a pardon,

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Speaker 1: or he would ask for a pardon. Could that be

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Speaker 1: in the back of his mind? Absolutely? Absolutely. If you're

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Speaker 1: Roger Stone, especially if you think that this is all

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Speaker 1: just federal charges and mostly just process crimes, there's an

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Speaker 1: element to which you're wondering, how long can you hold out,

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Speaker 1: how many how much money do you get saved up

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Speaker 1: to try to tow the line, gets the present to

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Speaker 1: pardon you, and you can spend the next fifteen years

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Speaker 1: making money in speeches talking about how you stood up

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Speaker 1: for Donald Trump. All right, thanks so much, Brad. As always,

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Speaker 1: that's Brad Moss. He is a partner at Mark's Sade.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to the Bloomberg Law Podcast. You can

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Speaker 1: subscribe and listen to the show on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud,

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Speaker 1: and on bloomberg dot com slash podcast. I'm June Grosso.

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Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg