Speaker 1: Good morning, keeps, and welcome to ook f Daily with
Speaker 1: Meet your Girl Danielle Moody recording from the home Bunker. Folks.
Speaker 1: Oh my fucking god, there is good news to report
Speaker 1: and it couldn't come soon enough. This week was election
Speaker 1: week in America and on the ballot our rights as
Speaker 1: per usual, since the dawn of MAGA in Ohio, in Kentucky,
Speaker 1: in Virginia, the voters had their voices heard. In Ohio,
Speaker 1: they have now enshrined abortion protection into the constitution. After
Speaker 1: the Republicans spent twenty eight million dollars to try and
Speaker 1: deny this right to Ohioans, they fought back and now
Speaker 1: abortion and abortion access will be the law of the land.
Speaker 1: Over in Kentucky, Governor Andy Basheer, Democrat, won handedly against
Speaker 1: the Trump backed and supported Daniel Cameron. You may remember
Speaker 1: Daniel Cameron because he was the ag who, you know,
Speaker 1: just kind of didn't do his job when Breonna Taylor
Speaker 1: was killed in her fucking sleep because of a no
Speaker 1: knock warrant that was issued for the wrong address and
Speaker 1: it cost her her life, Daniel Cameron didn't really give
Speaker 1: a fuck because you know what, folks, just a reminder
Speaker 1: not all skin folk are kinfolk. I think most surprisingly
Speaker 1: and most excitingly is what took place in the state
Speaker 1: of Virginia. Glenn Youngkin, the Republican in a vest, basically
Speaker 1: Trump and a vest, thought that he was going to
Speaker 1: be able to win back the Republican state legislature so
Speaker 1: that he could push through a fifteen week abortion ban
Speaker 1: in Virginia. And once again, the voters said hell no.
Speaker 1: Not only did the Democrats hold on to the state Senate,
Speaker 1: they also flipped the House blue. So Glenn Younkin can
Speaker 1: hang his hopes nowhere because the people of Virginia spoke out.
Speaker 1: So what does this say to us, folks? What can
Speaker 1: we understand and know from this moment? And I think
Speaker 1: it's this. It's the fact that when the people understand
Speaker 1: what is at stake, when the message is clear, when
Speaker 1: the messengers, the representatives that are voting for, are quality
Speaker 1: candidates who care about them, who care about democracy, they
Speaker 1: show out and they show up. Now Republican and now
Speaker 1: talking head Rick Santorum said the quiet part out loud
Speaker 1: when he said, oh, first of all, this motherfucker referred
Speaker 1: to abortion as a quote unquote sexy issue. So make
Speaker 1: that make sense? But on top of which, he also
Speaker 1: suggested that this is why what happened in Ohio means
Speaker 1: that democracy doesn't work, meaning that allowing people to vote
Speaker 1: right on the issues that affect their day to day
Speaker 1: life don't work because what Republicans want, and what they
Speaker 1: are saying very clearly is a theocracy layered with fascism,
Speaker 1: because nothing that the Republican Party is offering to the
Speaker 1: American people is popular or wanted by the majority, which
Speaker 1: is why they want to anoint Donald Trump their king,
Speaker 1: so that he can weaponize the Department of Justice, he
Speaker 1: can weaponize the military against the American people, and they
Speaker 1: can by force have their way. That's what Rick Santorum said.
Speaker 1: That's what all of the Republican candidates that are vying
Speaker 1: quote unquote for the presidency when we all know that
Speaker 1: they're really vying to be Donald Trump's vice president. That's
Speaker 1: what they are saying right now. We have somebody that
Speaker 1: is sitting two heartbeats away from the presidency, who believes
Speaker 1: in a national abortion van, who believes in a national
Speaker 1: divorce ban, who believes that gay people should be beaten
Speaker 1: and shocked out of their gatum. They are telling us
Speaker 1: with each candidate with each vote, with each person who
Speaker 1: they are, believe them. Coming up next today we welcome
Speaker 1: back to the show on gidridadis, the author of The Persuaders,
Speaker 1: to talk to us about democratic messaging, to talk to
Speaker 1: us about the moment that we are in where we
Speaker 1: need to find hope in and how we continue to
Speaker 1: fight for justice and equity. That conversation is coming up next, folks.
Speaker 1: I am very happy to welcome back to wok F
Speaker 1: Daily author writer thinker on On Gidatas, who has been
Speaker 1: on this show before. When your book, which is now out,
Speaker 1: has been out in paperback, The Persuaders at the front
Speaker 1: lines of the fight for hearts, minds and democracy. I
Speaker 1: can think of no better book, no better timing than yours.
Speaker 1: And I just want to start off with how I've
Speaker 1: been starting off most conversations, which is asking people how
Speaker 1: they are and how you are managing through what has
Speaker 1: become and every day, multiple day alerts on our phones
Speaker 1: about whether it's a mass shooting, whether it's war, whether
Speaker 1: it's someone being pushed on a subway. There's just violence,
Speaker 1: anger and rage everywhere. So how are you managing?
Speaker 2: I mean, aside from the state of the world and
Speaker 2: then great, you know, the world, the world complicates that.
Speaker 2: Right now, it's just such an awful time, and I
Speaker 2: think it's you know, we've lived through a lot, not
Speaker 2: just right now but in the last decade or two.
Speaker 2: But I think this time feels really heavy.
Speaker 3: And kind of.
Speaker 2: You know, pushing the limits of like whether we can
Speaker 2: all live together to the kind of edge, you know.
Speaker 2: And I use that phrase carefully because that's basically the
Speaker 2: question of democracy, you know, can we live together? Democracy
Speaker 2: is a fancy Greek word for can we live together?
Speaker 2: Or can we not live together? Can we live together
Speaker 2: and choose things together? And you know, here there, everywhere.
Speaker 2: I think it is more of an open question right
Speaker 2: now of whether.
Speaker 3: We can.
Speaker 1: You know, and that's that is actually a really good question.
Speaker 1: Can we all live together? Can we and not just
Speaker 1: live together in a way that ignores each other's differences? Right?
Speaker 1: Like I think that you and I broke both probably
Speaker 1: grew up in age where it was about people being
Speaker 1: quote unquote tolerant, right, and then we watched as that
Speaker 1: move from tolerance of other people moved into acceptance. Right.
Speaker 1: We never quite got to the place of celebration. I
Speaker 1: don't think you know, I think that we we kind
Speaker 1: of stopped right at that door and then backslid, And
Speaker 1: so I wonder, you know, if this has all been
Speaker 1: a project, which it's been, right, a project of figuring
Speaker 1: out how to live together, how to bring more people
Speaker 1: to the table, how to open up more conversations, and
Speaker 1: the place that we find ourselves in. If we're looking
Speaker 1: at it as in a house that all the doors
Speaker 1: are slowly shutting one by one, what does it look
Speaker 1: like then, for for people to put themselves in that
Speaker 1: doorway to say no, don't close this one, right? You know,
Speaker 1: what what does that look and what does that feel like?
Speaker 2: Yeah? And first of all, let me say this, and
Speaker 2: this may I don't know sound people may disagree with this,
Speaker 2: but you know, we all casually, many of us kind
Speaker 2: of revere our ancestors and speak well of our ancestors
Speaker 2: in all communities. But the truth is around the world,
Speaker 2: if you go back far enough into your ancestry, wherever
Speaker 2: you're from, I'm going to bet that your ancestors were
Speaker 2: pretty intolerant people. Right, if you go back beyond the
Speaker 2: twentieth century, I don't care what community or what place
Speaker 2: it was not great to be gay in basically anywhere.
Speaker 2: It was not great to be trands in a whole
Speaker 2: bunch of places. Right, Most of our ancestors had not
Speaker 2: met people in their lifetimes who didn't look like them,
Speaker 2: who didn't participate in the same religion, go to the
Speaker 2: same sub denomination of the same religion, didn't eat the
Speaker 2: same kind of you know, cast food in India, who
Speaker 2: didn't you know, farm this, do the same kind of work.
Speaker 2: So our ancestors were able to live together because they
Speaker 2: didn't very often. I mean, there's some exceptions, there's places
Speaker 2: Istanbul where people have been living together and you know,
Speaker 2: for a very long time. But for most of our
Speaker 2: ancestors everywhere, they were able to live together because they
Speaker 2: live with people who were exactly like them, and small
Speaker 2: numbers of people controlled everything. Right, That was like some
Speaker 2: level one video game of living together.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 2: If you look at what we are trying to do
Speaker 2: in the United States now, in much of the modern
Speaker 2: world today, we are trying to do something completely running.
Speaker 3: Laps around what our ancestors try to do.
Speaker 2: We're trying to live with all kinds of different people
Speaker 2: who share no basic code of how to be, who
Speaker 2: were raised differently, who have all kinds of historical beefs
Speaker 2: and conflicts with each other, who have different religions, who
Speaker 2: have a different idea of what freedom means, of what
Speaker 2: safety means, of what love means, of what having each
Speaker 2: other's back means. Particularly in America, we're trying to do
Speaker 2: something that is gravity defying, That is law of physics defying,
Speaker 2: you know. And I always like to set the table
Speaker 2: with that because I think it's important to remember that
Speaker 2: the that the like seeming disaster of our politics right
Speaker 2: now is occurring in a context.
Speaker 3: It is a very high class.
Speaker 2: Fail, right, Like we are failing at doing something super
Speaker 2: super hard, you know, which is really different than failing
Speaker 2: at doing something super easy. Right, We're actually engaged in
Speaker 2: a very worthy project to see if you look at
Speaker 2: the United States and focus on that if three million,
Speaker 2: three fifty million people who look really really different from
Speaker 2: each other and don't share a lot of foundational things
Speaker 2: can live together and do so through everybody participating in
Speaker 2: the conversation about how they should live, instead of like
Speaker 2: giving it to a king. And so I think I,
Speaker 2: you know, at the heart of the persuaders' idea of like,
Speaker 2: let's start with a little mercy for ourselves about how
Speaker 2: hard the project is, right, and remember what the project is,
Speaker 2: because it's really easy to just ask one guy to
Speaker 2: decide everything. We're not doing that. It's really easy to
Speaker 2: be Norway and just have like a bunch of blonde
Speaker 2: people you know, who look alike redistributing resources to each other.
Speaker 2: Congratulations on your strong safety net, right, but kind of easy,
Speaker 2: kind of easy. Yeah, we're trying to do something hard,
Speaker 2: and the persuaders is in many ways about I think,
Speaker 2: starting from that recognition and then thinking about people who
Speaker 2: I profound the book, who are figuring out ways of
Speaker 2: doing that hard thing and enlarging people sense of willingness
Speaker 2: to live together, you know.
Speaker 1: And I love the fact that what you are, how
Speaker 1: you were setting this table is honestly from a place
Speaker 1: of grace. Right to give ourselves some grace in this
Speaker 1: idea that what we're trying to do has never been
Speaker 1: done right, and it is this exceptional feat to say
Speaker 1: that I'm going to look past whatever has come up
Speaker 1: for me epigenetically, whatever traumas have plagued our histories, whatever issues,
Speaker 1: and are working to try and live side by side,
Speaker 1: to try and live with one another in a way
Speaker 1: that has never been done, and I do I think
Speaker 1: that maybe to that point, we haven't talked about how
Speaker 1: difficult it is. We've just kind of pushed past and said,
Speaker 1: why isn't it happening and why isn't it happening fast
Speaker 1: enough when we have these extraordinary backslides, because where we
Speaker 1: are in is in an extraordinary backslide. But I think
Speaker 1: that we weren't moving forward with the intentionality that you
Speaker 1: just laid out, which is that we're doing something that
Speaker 1: no one else in the world is doing because everywhere
Speaker 1: else that you look, the people still majority look like
Speaker 1: each other, pray like each other. You know, what have you?
Speaker 1: The United States is really this hodgepodge.
Speaker 2: And I travel a bunch. I travel around the world
Speaker 2: for my work, and it's a really meaningful difference that
Speaker 2: we should that we should own and be proud of.
Speaker 2: You know, China fantastic country. China is not a country
Speaker 2: made of people from around the world. China is a
Speaker 2: country of Chinese people. India is not a country made
Speaker 2: of people from all around the world, country of Indian people.
Speaker 2: Right Europe, they have, you know, minority populations, but it's
Speaker 2: it's not the size and level of ours. It's very
Speaker 2: carefully managed. It's a lot of guest workers. You don't
Speaker 2: even have natural birth citizenship in a lot of those countries. Right.
Speaker 2: We make a million or so citizens a year in
Speaker 2: this country. Even when Trump was president, that didn't stop. Right,
Speaker 2: So we are engaged in a project of attempting to
Speaker 2: build a kind of country that is an awesome pursuit,
Speaker 2: a country made of the world. And this is not
Speaker 2: just something happening in a handful of elite spaces in
Speaker 2: Brooklyn and Berkeley. Right, I travel to the length and
Speaker 2: breadth of this country. I'm just in North Carolina. I'm
Speaker 2: not like rural North Carolina. You go to rooms, you
Speaker 2: go to companies, you go to restaurants. Look around. This
Speaker 2: is where our ancestors would have been, like what are
Speaker 2: all these people doing in a restaurant together?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 2: Like what happens? Is this the beginning of a joke?
Speaker 2: Like like why? Like why is this happening? Right? I
Speaker 2: just start from that. I'm still amazed by it, even
Speaker 2: though it's the only thing I've ever known in a
Speaker 2: deep way, like this country is trying a hard thing
Speaker 2: and an unintuitive thing. And then the second point, which
Speaker 2: relates to what you were just saying about. The backsliding
Speaker 2: is when we have this attitude of like, ah, everything
Speaker 2: is so terrible, Why is it all so terrible? Why
Speaker 2: is this happening? It's often asked in this way of
Speaker 2: like this shouldn't be happening. There's no there's no logical
Speaker 2: reason that we're having, you know, a kind of handmaid's
Speaker 2: tail political backlash, or there's no logical reason why, you know,
Speaker 2: white people are gravitating to authoritarian movements. And I actually
Speaker 2: think this is a very dangerous logic, Like it's an
Speaker 2: emotional reaction, right, It's it's just an anger. I mean,
Speaker 2: everybody who I ever meet, who's watched me in MSNBC,
Speaker 2: like this is why they're watching MSNBC eight hours day.
Speaker 2: They just want to have this like therapeutic thing of
Speaker 2: like it's so outrageous that anybody would be behaving like this.
Speaker 2: And I kind of have a different view, which is
Speaker 2: when I look at most of what I see happening
Speaker 2: to me, these are very logical, predictable, almost inevitable results
Speaker 2: of the kinds of conditions we are living through. So
Speaker 2: if you are as we are have been in the
Speaker 2: last fifty sixty years. I would say changing the status
Speaker 2: of women more in the last fifty sixty years than
Speaker 2: we probably did in the previous five thousand. Is it
Speaker 2: so weird that a significant fraction of men who were
Speaker 2: raised in the old way and who have anxiety status,
Speaker 2: anxiety about who they're going to be and how they're
Speaker 2: going to fit and what their sources of esteem are
Speaker 2: going to be, and whether their wife will still respect them,
Speaker 2: whether their kids all of that. Is it really that
Speaker 2: weird that that would become a constituency that can be
Speaker 2: weaponized to try to put women in their place. None
Speaker 2: of this is saying it's right. On the other hand,
Speaker 2: if someone hold you in nineteen fifty, all right, here's
Speaker 2: what we're going to do to the status of women,
Speaker 2: and we're gonna do it at like one hundred x
Speaker 2: the pace of normal human change, and we're gonna see
Speaker 2: what happens. And then you were to ask follow up
Speaker 2: questions like and do we have a plan for like
Speaker 2: managing men down.
Speaker 3: From privileged psychologically?
Speaker 2: Like do we have a plan for helping men see
Speaker 2: who they're going to be on the other side of change?
Speaker 2: Like what happens when men like no longer are breadwinners
Speaker 2: in families, like do they will there be replacement sources
Speaker 2: of value and esteem for them that we will help
Speaker 2: teach them. And you're like, now, we'll just we'll just see,
Speaker 2: like we'll play it by ear. You know, if you
Speaker 2: told me that in nineteen fifty, I'd be like, Okay, cool,
Speaker 2: you can get some backsliding around like twenty twenty three,
Speaker 2: like you're gonna you know, you know, you're gonna have
Speaker 2: some demagogic movements. And by the way, it's not even
Speaker 2: necessarily a majority of men. It's just like enough men
Speaker 2: have no idea. It's pain, right that that fame phrase,
Speaker 2: I forget who said it. Anger is what pain looks
Speaker 2: like in public, right, It's they're just like people who
Speaker 2: honestly don't know who they're going to be on the
Speaker 2: far side of change. I'm focusing on men for a second,
Speaker 2: but you can then make the same one about white people.
Speaker 2: Right again, A lot of folks that you and I
Speaker 2: know probably are more focused on how much more we
Speaker 2: need to change. But let's be honest, we have changed
Speaker 2: a ton, a ton, and we disrespect the people who
Speaker 2: achieve those victories by kind of minimizing the fact that
Speaker 2: like they achieved a lot over the next over the
Speaker 2: last thirty forty fifty sixty seventy years, a lot, right,
Speaker 2: a lot in making this country truer to what it
Speaker 2: promised it would be on race and other things. And
Speaker 2: if you were to look at that and say, and
Speaker 2: by the way, do we've planned for white people like
Speaker 2: it's it's a pretty different psychological experience to have completely
Speaker 2: unearned privilege that guides and un or girds your life
Speaker 2: and then to kind of slowly have that not be
Speaker 2: the thing anymore in one institution after another and start
Speaker 2: to try to have a more fair society. Do we
Speaker 2: have a plan for that? Are going to help educate
Speaker 2: people to like, not good with that, to actually realize
Speaker 2: now we're just gonna it's less a fair we have done.
Speaker 2: I am so obsessed with this topic. You can tell
Speaker 2: my passion. Like we have. You know, we talk about
Speaker 2: less a fair economics, just like let people do like
Speaker 2: good luck, We have done less a fair psychology on
Speaker 2: all of the kind of social transitions involved in moving
Speaker 2: towards justice, greater justice right, in moving towards a gender
Speaker 2: equal future, and moving towards rethinking what gender even means
Speaker 2: it's happening right now, in moving towards racial progress, in
Speaker 2: moving towards giving immigrants, to the right state, all these
Speaker 2: things that I support one hundred and eighty five percent,
Speaker 2: we've kind of just been like, hope everybody are yeah, right.
Speaker 2: And to me, I say all that to say that,
Speaker 2: I look at everything happening now, all the backlashes, the
Speaker 2: things that make me as mad as anybody listening to this,
Speaker 2: and I think not weird, not random, not outrageous, logical,
Speaker 2: predictable symptoms erupting over our body politic given what we've
Speaker 2: been doing, what we've been putting in our body, what
Speaker 2: we have been going through, And that, to me actually
Speaker 2: opens up the conversation about how should we be guiding
Speaker 2: people through this era. What kinds of meaning making and
Speaker 2: organizing and storytelling could there be, Because if you just say,
Speaker 2: like there are some outrageous people doing outrageous things in
Speaker 2: our politics, there's nothing you can do.
Speaker 1: You just have to think, right, because you've just it's
Speaker 1: just a statement, right, It's not a solution. It's not
Speaker 1: oriented and really in understanding. My question though for you,
Speaker 1: is that if there were to be and you are
Speaker 1: one of those guides, with the books, conversations, and work
Speaker 1: that you put out into the universe to try and
Speaker 1: alter how people think and how they examine this moment.
Speaker 1: On one side, you would say that progressives and folks on
Speaker 1: the left would say, well, why do we have to
Speaker 1: handhold them? We've been handholding them, We've been catering to men,
Speaker 1: we've been handholding white people and telling them that their
Speaker 1: tears are okay and collectively holding them right like, I'm done,
Speaker 1: I'm exhausted, I'm over it, so honestly, because those are
Speaker 1: more so likely the people that are listening to this
Speaker 1: show right now, what's your response to that versus we
Speaker 1: know what the opposition, we know where the true opposition
Speaker 1: to that is. But what about those folks that are
Speaker 1: just like I'm tired, I don't want to hold your hand.
Speaker 2: I think you just as you always do, Like you
Speaker 2: just perfectly encounterated I think the idea that is behind
Speaker 2: why we don't do the thing I was describing earlier,
Speaker 2: And I think you perfectly encapsulated what I think is
Speaker 2: in some ways the biggest progressive mistake of the era. Right,
Speaker 2: And so let me start with like a mantra of mine,
Speaker 2: which is that I think the burden of citizenship is
Speaker 2: accepting that what is not your fault is sometimes your problem. Whooh, Okay,
Speaker 2: a lot of things are not any of our fault,
Speaker 2: but they are our problem. Okay, if you're nineteen, climate
Speaker 2: change is definitely not your fault. It's unfortunately your problem.
Speaker 2: You can't just say it's a problem with people who
Speaker 2: were like, lived longest and polluted the longest. Right part
Speaker 2: of citizenship, it is not your fault, is your problem.
Speaker 2: I think the real I one hundred percent get the
Speaker 2: emotion behind what you just said.
Speaker 3: And I hear it a lot.
Speaker 2: But I think we have to separate the fact that
Speaker 2: the opposition to some of these changes is not correct.
Speaker 3: It's wrong.
Speaker 2: Wanting to cling to white privilege and supremacy is wrong.
Speaker 2: It's substantively a wrong position. It's a wrong thing to
Speaker 2: cling to. It's a thing that can't be abolished fast enough.
Speaker 2: Wanting to cling to patriarchy and the ability to slap
Speaker 2: your secretary on the butt at work with impunity is wrong.
Speaker 2: And like, as fast as we can dismantle that, the better. Okay,
Speaker 2: So that's like point number one, point number two is that,
Speaker 2: and it's a more morally neutral point. Managing human beings
Speaker 2: from one state of being to another is very hard, okay,
Speaker 2: and people can seldom do it alone. And doing one
Speaker 2: hundred million people at the same time is like a
Speaker 2: social tsunami. Right, And someone I talked to for the
Speaker 2: persuader has made this very clear, Like people get a
Speaker 2: heart attack, okay, and you and that doctor will say
Speaker 2: to them, okay, like you can't eat this anymore, You
Speaker 2: can't eat that anymore, Like it will die within a
Speaker 2: year if you don't listen to these four rules of
Speaker 2: what you can and can I eat, right, and I
Speaker 2: forget the number, but like the overwhelming majority of people
Speaker 2: cannot comply with it. Don't compete, okay, I need you
Speaker 2: to change what you eat to stay alive. Yes, welcome
Speaker 2: to who we are. Most of us are like, ah,
Speaker 2: it's a lot, okay. So now think about an entire
Speaker 2: country built on certain ideas of race, white domination. Who
Speaker 2: gets to decide getting to be mediocre but still run
Speaker 2: the company, et cetera. On the gender side, like an
Speaker 2: entire elaborate structure of respect, esteem rewards for men for women,
Speaker 2: different ideas, roles. You want to get all rid of
Speaker 2: all of that rightfully in a five to six seven
Speaker 2: decade period, right, And you think it'd be easier than
Speaker 2: just like people have so much less motivation to make
Speaker 2: those changes than they do to stop eating bacon to
Speaker 2: stay alive. If people cannot stop eating bacon to stay alive,
Speaker 2: if people often, through their choices, choose death over diet alteration,
Speaker 2: how are we expecting large numbers of white people, of men,
Speaker 2: of whoever to change unilaterally themselves, change how they are
Speaker 2: to live in this different way? Right? Like, this is hard.
Speaker 2: I am not saying this to say to slow walk
Speaker 2: to I am as in favor of doing these changes
Speaker 2: as fast and as in as far going away as anybody.
Speaker 2: But I think there's this huge blind spot around thinking
Speaker 2: that people are not going to need help getting there. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and so this is not about holding people's hands. And
Speaker 2: I understand like you're saying, we've got to fuss over
Speaker 2: these people, Like the whole last four hundred years was
Speaker 2: fussing over these people. Is this just the replacement of
Speaker 2: like one fussing with another. I think this leads us
Speaker 2: to a very dark place because those people will get
Speaker 2: fussed over. Okay, the people who feel kind of homeless
Speaker 2: between the old ways and the new ways, between the
Speaker 2: old ideas of gender and the new ones, between the
Speaker 2: old ideas of privilege and power and race and the
Speaker 2: new ones. Like they will get catered to, but they're
Speaker 2: a market that they're like a hungry market that will
Speaker 2: be fed. Okay, that is not optional. What is the
Speaker 2: choice is who feeds them? Okay? Do you want Donald
Speaker 2: Trump talking them through? So if you are a man
Speaker 2: who feels like you can't be like your daddy was,
Speaker 2: and then your son's coming home acting in all these
Speaker 2: new ways that seem to you effeminate and weird and
Speaker 2: or just makes you feel like you don't understand the world,
Speaker 2: and you're caught literally between your daddy and your son,
Speaker 2: which I think you know a lot of fifty year
Speaker 2: old men in this country would feel. Donald Trump's very
Speaker 2: happy to talk you through those feelings. And if you
Speaker 2: actually look at what Donald Trump's saying, it's not a
Speaker 2: policy and this and that he's actually trying in many
Speaker 2: ways to talk you through those feelings. They don't want
Speaker 2: you to being a man anymore or just the way
Speaker 2: he performs, right, He's actually he actually recognizes that that's
Speaker 2: a feel you have and he's trying to resolve that.
Speaker 3: Sense of homelessness or alienation. Right.
Speaker 2: I would much rather Joe Biden help talk that man
Speaker 2: through the era, or AOC talk that man through the era,
Speaker 2: or activists or organizers. I'd rather door knockers are going
Speaker 2: and talking to them. Like I think, if we get
Speaker 2: into this notion that people don't need to be helped
Speaker 2: with their psychological transitions in an era of extraordinary power shifts,
Speaker 2: we're not like righteously avoiding emotional labor that we shouldn't
Speaker 2: have to do. We're just handing people to fascists who
Speaker 2: are very happy to talk people through psychological displacement.
Speaker 1: I mean, god, damn, yeah, you have just once again
Speaker 1: convinced me that that you know, it isn't about the
Speaker 1: emotion labor of the thing. It is who who do
Speaker 1: we want them to be educated through and educated by?
Speaker 1: Because they will be right? And I think that that,
Speaker 1: to me, that's the perfect place for us to land today.
Speaker 1: But that is that is the question. And I think
Speaker 1: that your book and every everything is about that people
Speaker 1: are stuck and you just you just this was so succinct,
Speaker 1: and thank you so much. It was so succinct because
Speaker 1: people are stuck, and it's like, how do we want
Speaker 1: to get them unstuck? Is is truly the question, folks,
Speaker 1: if you have not gotten it yet, the book is
Speaker 1: the persuaders at the front lines of the fight for
Speaker 1: hearts and minds, hearts, minds and democracy, which is everything
Speaker 1: of where we are. Thank you so much, thank you,
Speaker 1: thank you for talking to you. I mean I could
Speaker 1: talk to you for like literally, I need you to
Speaker 1: talk me through life. We'll do a series, but thank you.
Speaker 1: That is it for me today, dear friends, on woke
Speaker 1: a app as always power to the people and to
Speaker 1: all the people. Power, get woke and stay woke as fuck.