WEBVTT - High-Class Fail 0:00:11.760 --> 0:00:14.440 Good morning, keeps, and welcome to ook f Daily with 0:00:14.520 --> 0:00:19.280 Meet your Girl Danielle Moody recording from the home Bunker. Folks. 0:00:19.800 --> 0:00:23.200 Oh my fucking god, there is good news to report 0:00:23.440 --> 0:00:28.040 and it couldn't come soon enough. This week was election 0:00:28.200 --> 0:00:32.600 week in America and on the ballot our rights as 0:00:32.920 --> 0:00:39.360 per usual, since the dawn of MAGA in Ohio, in Kentucky, 0:00:39.800 --> 0:00:47.000 in Virginia, the voters had their voices heard. In Ohio, 0:00:47.240 --> 0:00:53.440 they have now enshrined abortion protection into the constitution. After 0:00:53.479 --> 0:00:58.920 the Republicans spent twenty eight million dollars to try and 0:00:59.000 --> 0:01:05.440 deny this right to Ohioans, they fought back and now 0:01:06.120 --> 0:01:10.600 abortion and abortion access will be the law of the land. 0:01:11.120 --> 0:01:18.840 Over in Kentucky, Governor Andy Basheer, Democrat, won handedly against 0:01:18.840 --> 0:01:23.400 the Trump backed and supported Daniel Cameron. You may remember 0:01:23.520 --> 0:01:28.400 Daniel Cameron because he was the ag who, you know, 0:01:28.800 --> 0:01:32.000 just kind of didn't do his job when Breonna Taylor 0:01:32.480 --> 0:01:35.400 was killed in her fucking sleep because of a no 0:01:35.480 --> 0:01:40.520 knock warrant that was issued for the wrong address and 0:01:40.600 --> 0:01:45.200 it cost her her life, Daniel Cameron didn't really give 0:01:45.240 --> 0:01:48.400 a fuck because you know what, folks, just a reminder 0:01:48.800 --> 0:01:53.360 not all skin folk are kinfolk. I think most surprisingly 0:01:53.400 --> 0:01:58.000 and most excitingly is what took place in the state 0:01:58.000 --> 0:02:02.960 of Virginia. Glenn Youngkin, the Republican in a vest, basically 0:02:03.280 --> 0:02:06.920 Trump and a vest, thought that he was going to 0:02:06.960 --> 0:02:12.560 be able to win back the Republican state legislature so 0:02:12.600 --> 0:02:16.240 that he could push through a fifteen week abortion ban 0:02:16.520 --> 0:02:22.600 in Virginia. And once again, the voters said hell no. 0:02:23.280 --> 0:02:27.720 Not only did the Democrats hold on to the state Senate, 0:02:28.120 --> 0:02:34.079 they also flipped the House blue. So Glenn Younkin can 0:02:34.120 --> 0:02:38.960 hang his hopes nowhere because the people of Virginia spoke out. 0:02:39.400 --> 0:02:42.000 So what does this say to us, folks? What can 0:02:42.040 --> 0:02:46.680 we understand and know from this moment? And I think 0:02:46.720 --> 0:02:53.200 it's this. It's the fact that when the people understand 0:02:53.280 --> 0:02:57.839 what is at stake, when the message is clear, when 0:02:57.880 --> 0:03:04.320 the messengers, the representatives that are voting for, are quality 0:03:04.360 --> 0:03:11.359 candidates who care about them, who care about democracy, they 0:03:11.440 --> 0:03:18.640 show out and they show up. Now Republican and now 0:03:18.800 --> 0:03:24.680 talking head Rick Santorum said the quiet part out loud 0:03:25.639 --> 0:03:29.320 when he said, oh, first of all, this motherfucker referred 0:03:29.320 --> 0:03:33.519 to abortion as a quote unquote sexy issue. So make 0:03:33.600 --> 0:03:37.680 that make sense? But on top of which, he also 0:03:37.720 --> 0:03:43.240 suggested that this is why what happened in Ohio means 0:03:43.240 --> 0:03:49.440 that democracy doesn't work, meaning that allowing people to vote 0:03:49.640 --> 0:03:52.080 right on the issues that affect their day to day 0:03:52.160 --> 0:03:58.760 life don't work because what Republicans want, and what they 0:03:58.800 --> 0:04:06.440 are saying very clearly is a theocracy layered with fascism, 0:04:07.960 --> 0:04:12.720 because nothing that the Republican Party is offering to the 0:04:12.800 --> 0:04:19.839 American people is popular or wanted by the majority, which 0:04:19.880 --> 0:04:23.120 is why they want to anoint Donald Trump their king, 0:04:23.520 --> 0:04:26.360 so that he can weaponize the Department of Justice, he 0:04:26.400 --> 0:04:30.680 can weaponize the military against the American people, and they 0:04:30.800 --> 0:04:37.000 can by force have their way. That's what Rick Santorum said. 0:04:37.240 --> 0:04:40.800 That's what all of the Republican candidates that are vying 0:04:41.120 --> 0:04:44.359 quote unquote for the presidency when we all know that 0:04:44.400 --> 0:04:48.760 they're really vying to be Donald Trump's vice president. That's 0:04:49.080 --> 0:04:51.880 what they are saying right now. We have somebody that 0:04:52.000 --> 0:04:56.320 is sitting two heartbeats away from the presidency, who believes 0:04:56.320 --> 0:04:59.279 in a national abortion van, who believes in a national 0:04:59.320 --> 0:05:03.680 divorce ban, who believes that gay people should be beaten 0:05:03.720 --> 0:05:09.240 and shocked out of their gatum. They are telling us 0:05:09.279 --> 0:05:12.760 with each candidate with each vote, with each person who 0:05:12.800 --> 0:05:18.680 they are, believe them. Coming up next today we welcome 0:05:18.720 --> 0:05:23.640 back to the show on gidridadis, the author of The Persuaders, 0:05:24.000 --> 0:05:27.240 to talk to us about democratic messaging, to talk to 0:05:27.320 --> 0:05:30.159 us about the moment that we are in where we 0:05:30.279 --> 0:05:33.880 need to find hope in and how we continue to 0:05:33.960 --> 0:05:42.600 fight for justice and equity. That conversation is coming up next, folks. 0:05:42.680 --> 0:05:45.680 I am very happy to welcome back to wok F 0:05:46.080 --> 0:05:53.200 Daily author writer thinker on On Gidatas, who has been 0:05:53.240 --> 0:05:57.479 on this show before. When your book, which is now out, 0:05:57.600 --> 0:06:00.960 has been out in paperback, The Persuaders at the front 0:06:01.000 --> 0:06:06.400 lines of the fight for hearts, minds and democracy. I 0:06:06.440 --> 0:06:11.480 can think of no better book, no better timing than yours. 0:06:11.880 --> 0:06:15.000 And I just want to start off with how I've 0:06:15.000 --> 0:06:17.560 been starting off most conversations, which is asking people how 0:06:17.600 --> 0:06:22.760 they are and how you are managing through what has 0:06:22.839 --> 0:06:27.200 become and every day, multiple day alerts on our phones 0:06:27.960 --> 0:06:31.400 about whether it's a mass shooting, whether it's war, whether 0:06:31.440 --> 0:06:35.000 it's someone being pushed on a subway. There's just violence, 0:06:35.560 --> 0:06:39.160 anger and rage everywhere. So how are you managing? 0:06:41.080 --> 0:06:42.480 I mean, aside from the state of the world and 0:06:42.600 --> 0:06:49.000 then great, you know, the world, the world complicates that. 0:06:49.120 --> 0:06:55.039 Right now, it's just such an awful time, and I 0:06:55.080 --> 0:06:58.640 think it's you know, we've lived through a lot, not 0:06:58.760 --> 0:07:01.800 just right now but in the last decade or two. 0:07:01.880 --> 0:07:07.160 But I think this time feels really heavy. 0:07:06.920 --> 0:07:07.680 And kind of. 0:07:09.440 --> 0:07:12.680 You know, pushing the limits of like whether we can 0:07:12.720 --> 0:07:16.520 all live together to the kind of edge, you know. 0:07:16.840 --> 0:07:21.040 And I use that phrase carefully because that's basically the 0:07:21.120 --> 0:07:24.480 question of democracy, you know, can we live together? Democracy 0:07:24.520 --> 0:07:27.360 is a fancy Greek word for can we live together? 0:07:27.440 --> 0:07:29.520 Or can we not live together? Can we live together 0:07:29.560 --> 0:07:33.440 and choose things together? And you know, here there, everywhere. 0:07:35.280 --> 0:07:37.240 I think it is more of an open question right 0:07:37.280 --> 0:07:39.120 now of whether. 0:07:38.880 --> 0:07:39.440 We can. 0:07:41.640 --> 0:07:48.080 You know, and that's that is actually a really good question. 0:07:48.760 --> 0:07:52.000 Can we all live together? Can we and not just 0:07:52.080 --> 0:07:56.600 live together in a way that ignores each other's differences? Right? 0:07:56.760 --> 0:07:59.280 Like I think that you and I broke both probably 0:07:59.320 --> 0:08:02.560 grew up in age where it was about people being 0:08:02.600 --> 0:08:06.120 quote unquote tolerant, right, and then we watched as that 0:08:06.200 --> 0:08:10.240 move from tolerance of other people moved into acceptance. Right. 0:08:10.720 --> 0:08:13.640 We never quite got to the place of celebration. I 0:08:13.680 --> 0:08:16.720 don't think you know, I think that we we kind 0:08:16.720 --> 0:08:20.200 of stopped right at that door and then backslid, And 0:08:20.280 --> 0:08:25.440 so I wonder, you know, if this has all been 0:08:25.480 --> 0:08:29.200 a project, which it's been, right, a project of figuring 0:08:29.240 --> 0:08:33.480 out how to live together, how to bring more people 0:08:33.640 --> 0:08:37.800 to the table, how to open up more conversations, and 0:08:37.880 --> 0:08:41.240 the place that we find ourselves in. If we're looking 0:08:41.240 --> 0:08:43.720 at it as in a house that all the doors 0:08:43.720 --> 0:08:47.320 are slowly shutting one by one, what does it look 0:08:47.480 --> 0:08:51.840 like then, for for people to put themselves in that 0:08:51.920 --> 0:08:56.240 doorway to say no, don't close this one, right? You know, 0:08:56.320 --> 0:08:59.520 what what does that look and what does that feel like? 0:09:00.360 --> 0:09:02.200 Yeah? And first of all, let me say this, and 0:09:02.240 --> 0:09:06.680 this may I don't know sound people may disagree with this, 0:09:06.960 --> 0:09:10.319 but you know, we all casually, many of us kind 0:09:10.360 --> 0:09:17.360 of revere our ancestors and speak well of our ancestors 0:09:18.240 --> 0:09:22.080 in all communities. But the truth is around the world, 0:09:22.240 --> 0:09:25.480 if you go back far enough into your ancestry, wherever 0:09:25.520 --> 0:09:29.280 you're from, I'm going to bet that your ancestors were 0:09:29.280 --> 0:09:33.000 pretty intolerant people. Right, if you go back beyond the 0:09:33.040 --> 0:09:36.160 twentieth century, I don't care what community or what place 0:09:37.000 --> 0:09:41.880 it was not great to be gay in basically anywhere. 0:09:42.600 --> 0:09:44.400 It was not great to be trands in a whole 0:09:44.400 --> 0:09:47.440 bunch of places. Right, Most of our ancestors had not 0:09:47.720 --> 0:09:52.200 met people in their lifetimes who didn't look like them, 0:09:52.840 --> 0:09:57.360 who didn't participate in the same religion, go to the 0:09:57.360 --> 0:10:00.480 same sub denomination of the same religion, didn't eat the 0:10:00.480 --> 0:10:03.520 same kind of you know, cast food in India, who 0:10:03.600 --> 0:10:06.360 didn't you know, farm this, do the same kind of work. 0:10:06.600 --> 0:10:12.440 So our ancestors were able to live together because they 0:10:12.480 --> 0:10:15.760 didn't very often. I mean, there's some exceptions, there's places 0:10:16.120 --> 0:10:18.480 Istanbul where people have been living together and you know, 0:10:18.559 --> 0:10:21.360 for a very long time. But for most of our 0:10:21.400 --> 0:10:24.320 ancestors everywhere, they were able to live together because they 0:10:24.320 --> 0:10:28.040 live with people who were exactly like them, and small 0:10:28.120 --> 0:10:31.800 numbers of people controlled everything. Right, That was like some 0:10:32.040 --> 0:10:35.439 level one video game of living together. 0:10:36.040 --> 0:10:36.240 Right. 0:10:36.800 --> 0:10:38.959 If you look at what we are trying to do 0:10:39.040 --> 0:10:42.560 in the United States now, in much of the modern 0:10:42.600 --> 0:10:48.080 world today, we are trying to do something completely running. 0:10:47.840 --> 0:10:49.720 Laps around what our ancestors try to do. 0:10:49.920 --> 0:10:52.320 We're trying to live with all kinds of different people 0:10:52.840 --> 0:10:57.800 who share no basic code of how to be, who 0:10:57.800 --> 0:11:02.439 were raised differently, who have all kinds of historical beefs 0:11:02.440 --> 0:11:05.839 and conflicts with each other, who have different religions, who 0:11:06.360 --> 0:11:08.439 have a different idea of what freedom means, of what 0:11:09.120 --> 0:11:13.240 safety means, of what love means, of what having each 0:11:13.280 --> 0:11:19.200 other's back means. Particularly in America, we're trying to do 0:11:19.280 --> 0:11:23.920 something that is gravity defying, That is law of physics defying, 0:11:24.440 --> 0:11:28.559 you know. And I always like to set the table 0:11:28.640 --> 0:11:31.920 with that because I think it's important to remember that 0:11:31.960 --> 0:11:36.440 the that the like seeming disaster of our politics right 0:11:36.480 --> 0:11:39.280 now is occurring in a context. 0:11:39.040 --> 0:11:40.959 It is a very high class. 0:11:40.640 --> 0:11:45.000 Fail, right, Like we are failing at doing something super 0:11:45.480 --> 0:11:49.480 super hard, you know, which is really different than failing 0:11:49.480 --> 0:11:53.400 at doing something super easy. Right, We're actually engaged in 0:11:53.440 --> 0:11:56.520 a very worthy project to see if you look at 0:11:56.520 --> 0:11:59.120 the United States and focus on that if three million, 0:11:59.360 --> 0:12:02.760 three fifty million people who look really really different from 0:12:02.800 --> 0:12:06.160 each other and don't share a lot of foundational things 0:12:06.679 --> 0:12:10.000 can live together and do so through everybody participating in 0:12:10.000 --> 0:12:12.200 the conversation about how they should live, instead of like 0:12:12.240 --> 0:12:16.240 giving it to a king. And so I think I, 0:12:16.480 --> 0:12:18.560 you know, at the heart of the persuaders' idea of like, 0:12:18.800 --> 0:12:21.480 let's start with a little mercy for ourselves about how 0:12:21.760 --> 0:12:26.200 hard the project is, right, and remember what the project is, 0:12:26.200 --> 0:12:28.600 because it's really easy to just ask one guy to 0:12:28.640 --> 0:12:31.640 decide everything. We're not doing that. It's really easy to 0:12:31.679 --> 0:12:34.040 be Norway and just have like a bunch of blonde 0:12:34.080 --> 0:12:38.600 people you know, who look alike redistributing resources to each other. 0:12:38.720 --> 0:12:42.840 Congratulations on your strong safety net, right, but kind of easy, 0:12:43.280 --> 0:12:46.679 kind of easy. Yeah, we're trying to do something hard, 0:12:47.200 --> 0:12:50.360 and the persuaders is in many ways about I think, 0:12:50.480 --> 0:12:54.280 starting from that recognition and then thinking about people who 0:12:54.320 --> 0:12:57.080 I profound the book, who are figuring out ways of 0:12:57.120 --> 0:13:02.240 doing that hard thing and enlarging people sense of willingness 0:13:02.520 --> 0:13:06.679 to live together, you know. 0:13:06.840 --> 0:13:10.680 And I love the fact that what you are, how 0:13:10.720 --> 0:13:14.200 you were setting this table is honestly from a place 0:13:14.240 --> 0:13:18.040 of grace. Right to give ourselves some grace in this 0:13:18.160 --> 0:13:21.400 idea that what we're trying to do has never been 0:13:21.440 --> 0:13:26.280 done right, and it is this exceptional feat to say 0:13:26.559 --> 0:13:30.880 that I'm going to look past whatever has come up 0:13:30.880 --> 0:13:38.240 for me epigenetically, whatever traumas have plagued our histories, whatever issues, 0:13:38.720 --> 0:13:41.880 and are working to try and live side by side, 0:13:41.920 --> 0:13:44.720 to try and live with one another in a way 0:13:44.800 --> 0:13:47.160 that has never been done, and I do I think 0:13:47.200 --> 0:13:52.280 that maybe to that point, we haven't talked about how 0:13:52.320 --> 0:13:56.840 difficult it is. We've just kind of pushed past and said, 0:13:56.880 --> 0:13:59.480 why isn't it happening and why isn't it happening fast 0:13:59.600 --> 0:14:03.920 enough when we have these extraordinary backslides, because where we 0:14:03.960 --> 0:14:07.720 are in is in an extraordinary backslide. But I think 0:14:07.760 --> 0:14:10.960 that we weren't moving forward with the intentionality that you 0:14:11.200 --> 0:14:14.440 just laid out, which is that we're doing something that 0:14:14.480 --> 0:14:17.120 no one else in the world is doing because everywhere 0:14:17.120 --> 0:14:21.480 else that you look, the people still majority look like 0:14:21.520 --> 0:14:24.080 each other, pray like each other. You know, what have you? 0:14:24.160 --> 0:14:28.680 The United States is really this hodgepodge. 0:14:28.240 --> 0:14:30.600 And I travel a bunch. I travel around the world 0:14:30.640 --> 0:14:33.840 for my work, and it's a really meaningful difference that 0:14:33.880 --> 0:14:36.600 we should that we should own and be proud of. 0:14:36.720 --> 0:14:40.200 You know, China fantastic country. China is not a country 0:14:40.200 --> 0:14:42.640 made of people from around the world. China is a 0:14:42.680 --> 0:14:45.440 country of Chinese people. India is not a country made 0:14:45.480 --> 0:14:47.960 of people from all around the world, country of Indian people. 0:14:48.680 --> 0:14:52.640 Right Europe, they have, you know, minority populations, but it's 0:14:52.720 --> 0:14:55.760 it's not the size and level of ours. It's very 0:14:55.800 --> 0:14:59.600 carefully managed. It's a lot of guest workers. You don't 0:14:59.640 --> 0:15:04.440 even have natural birth citizenship in a lot of those countries. Right. 0:15:04.680 --> 0:15:07.440 We make a million or so citizens a year in 0:15:07.480 --> 0:15:12.000 this country. Even when Trump was president, that didn't stop. Right, 0:15:12.240 --> 0:15:16.440 So we are engaged in a project of attempting to 0:15:16.520 --> 0:15:19.240 build a kind of country that is an awesome pursuit, 0:15:19.280 --> 0:15:21.320 a country made of the world. And this is not 0:15:21.360 --> 0:15:23.760 just something happening in a handful of elite spaces in 0:15:23.880 --> 0:15:26.560 Brooklyn and Berkeley. Right, I travel to the length and 0:15:26.600 --> 0:15:28.760 breadth of this country. I'm just in North Carolina. I'm 0:15:28.800 --> 0:15:32.240 not like rural North Carolina. You go to rooms, you 0:15:32.240 --> 0:15:36.480 go to companies, you go to restaurants. Look around. This 0:15:36.560 --> 0:15:38.280 is where our ancestors would have been, like what are 0:15:38.280 --> 0:15:40.000 all these people doing in a restaurant together? 0:15:40.960 --> 0:15:41.160 Right? 0:15:42.080 --> 0:15:44.200 Like what happens? Is this the beginning of a joke? 0:15:44.760 --> 0:15:48.560 Like like why? Like why is this happening? Right? I 0:15:48.720 --> 0:15:50.760 just start from that. I'm still amazed by it, even 0:15:50.760 --> 0:15:52.560 though it's the only thing I've ever known in a 0:15:52.600 --> 0:15:55.640 deep way, like this country is trying a hard thing 0:15:56.120 --> 0:16:00.880 and an unintuitive thing. And then the second point, which 0:16:00.880 --> 0:16:04.120 relates to what you were just saying about. The backsliding 0:16:04.880 --> 0:16:07.960 is when we have this attitude of like, ah, everything 0:16:08.000 --> 0:16:09.760 is so terrible, Why is it all so terrible? Why 0:16:09.800 --> 0:16:13.960 is this happening? It's often asked in this way of 0:16:14.040 --> 0:16:17.440 like this shouldn't be happening. There's no there's no logical 0:16:17.480 --> 0:16:22.000 reason that we're having, you know, a kind of handmaid's 0:16:22.000 --> 0:16:26.760 tail political backlash, or there's no logical reason why, you know, 0:16:26.840 --> 0:16:31.880 white people are gravitating to authoritarian movements. And I actually 0:16:31.920 --> 0:16:36.280 think this is a very dangerous logic, Like it's an 0:16:36.320 --> 0:16:38.960 emotional reaction, right, It's it's just an anger. I mean, 0:16:38.960 --> 0:16:41.320 everybody who I ever meet, who's watched me in MSNBC, 0:16:41.440 --> 0:16:44.000 like this is why they're watching MSNBC eight hours day. 0:16:44.000 --> 0:16:45.840 They just want to have this like therapeutic thing of 0:16:45.960 --> 0:16:49.320 like it's so outrageous that anybody would be behaving like this. 0:16:49.760 --> 0:16:51.520 And I kind of have a different view, which is 0:16:51.720 --> 0:16:53.840 when I look at most of what I see happening 0:16:54.040 --> 0:17:00.040 to me, these are very logical, predictable, almost inevitable results 0:17:00.120 --> 0:17:04.560 of the kinds of conditions we are living through. So 0:17:04.720 --> 0:17:08.440 if you are as we are have been in the 0:17:08.520 --> 0:17:12.720 last fifty sixty years. I would say changing the status 0:17:12.720 --> 0:17:15.600 of women more in the last fifty sixty years than 0:17:15.600 --> 0:17:21.879 we probably did in the previous five thousand. Is it 0:17:22.119 --> 0:17:28.439 so weird that a significant fraction of men who were 0:17:28.520 --> 0:17:34.280 raised in the old way and who have anxiety status, 0:17:34.280 --> 0:17:37.280 anxiety about who they're going to be and how they're 0:17:37.280 --> 0:17:40.160 going to fit and what their sources of esteem are 0:17:40.160 --> 0:17:43.360 going to be, and whether their wife will still respect them, 0:17:43.400 --> 0:17:47.359 whether their kids all of that. Is it really that 0:17:47.520 --> 0:17:50.320 weird that that would become a constituency that can be 0:17:50.400 --> 0:17:54.880 weaponized to try to put women in their place. None 0:17:54.920 --> 0:17:58.080 of this is saying it's right. On the other hand, 0:17:59.400 --> 0:18:01.800 if someone hold you in nineteen fifty, all right, here's 0:18:01.840 --> 0:18:03.359 what we're going to do to the status of women, 0:18:04.080 --> 0:18:06.359 and we're gonna do it at like one hundred x 0:18:06.480 --> 0:18:10.119 the pace of normal human change, and we're gonna see 0:18:10.280 --> 0:18:13.040 what happens. And then you were to ask follow up 0:18:13.119 --> 0:18:15.240 questions like and do we have a plan for like 0:18:15.359 --> 0:18:16.720 managing men down. 0:18:16.600 --> 0:18:18.000 From privileged psychologically? 0:18:18.000 --> 0:18:20.000 Like do we have a plan for helping men see 0:18:20.040 --> 0:18:21.640 who they're going to be on the other side of change? 0:18:21.680 --> 0:18:24.920 Like what happens when men like no longer are breadwinners 0:18:24.920 --> 0:18:28.400 in families, like do they will there be replacement sources 0:18:28.400 --> 0:18:30.160 of value and esteem for them that we will help 0:18:30.240 --> 0:18:33.720 teach them. And you're like, now, we'll just we'll just see, 0:18:33.800 --> 0:18:38.320 like we'll play it by ear. You know, if you 0:18:38.400 --> 0:18:40.440 told me that in nineteen fifty, I'd be like, Okay, cool, 0:18:41.080 --> 0:18:43.800 you can get some backsliding around like twenty twenty three, 0:18:44.040 --> 0:18:48.399 like you're gonna you know, you know, you're gonna have 0:18:48.440 --> 0:18:51.120 some demagogic movements. And by the way, it's not even 0:18:51.200 --> 0:18:54.240 necessarily a majority of men. It's just like enough men 0:18:56.800 --> 0:19:00.400 have no idea. It's pain, right that that fame phrase, 0:19:00.440 --> 0:19:02.320 I forget who said it. Anger is what pain looks 0:19:02.359 --> 0:19:05.200 like in public, right, It's they're just like people who 0:19:05.800 --> 0:19:08.679 honestly don't know who they're going to be on the 0:19:08.680 --> 0:19:11.479 far side of change. I'm focusing on men for a second, 0:19:11.480 --> 0:19:13.639 but you can then make the same one about white people. 0:19:14.160 --> 0:19:17.239 Right again, A lot of folks that you and I 0:19:17.320 --> 0:19:20.560 know probably are more focused on how much more we 0:19:20.640 --> 0:19:24.000 need to change. But let's be honest, we have changed 0:19:24.280 --> 0:19:28.440 a ton, a ton, and we disrespect the people who 0:19:28.960 --> 0:19:32.760 achieve those victories by kind of minimizing the fact that 0:19:32.920 --> 0:19:37.440 like they achieved a lot over the next over the 0:19:37.520 --> 0:19:41.080 last thirty forty fifty sixty seventy years, a lot, right, 0:19:41.520 --> 0:19:43.720 a lot in making this country truer to what it 0:19:43.760 --> 0:19:46.440 promised it would be on race and other things. And 0:19:46.880 --> 0:19:48.600 if you were to look at that and say, and 0:19:48.640 --> 0:19:50.280 by the way, do we've planned for white people like 0:19:50.680 --> 0:19:57.920 it's it's a pretty different psychological experience to have completely 0:19:58.040 --> 0:20:00.920 unearned privilege that guides and un or girds your life 0:20:00.960 --> 0:20:04.480 and then to kind of slowly have that not be 0:20:04.640 --> 0:20:08.200 the thing anymore in one institution after another and start 0:20:08.240 --> 0:20:10.919 to try to have a more fair society. Do we 0:20:10.960 --> 0:20:12.879 have a plan for that? Are going to help educate 0:20:12.920 --> 0:20:16.000 people to like, not good with that, to actually realize 0:20:16.160 --> 0:20:18.880 now we're just gonna it's less a fair we have done. 0:20:19.160 --> 0:20:21.160 I am so obsessed with this topic. You can tell 0:20:21.200 --> 0:20:23.480 my passion. Like we have. You know, we talk about 0:20:23.520 --> 0:20:25.919 less a fair economics, just like let people do like 0:20:26.400 --> 0:20:31.480 good luck, We have done less a fair psychology on 0:20:32.200 --> 0:20:36.359 all of the kind of social transitions involved in moving 0:20:36.359 --> 0:20:40.399 towards justice, greater justice right, in moving towards a gender 0:20:40.440 --> 0:20:43.760 equal future, and moving towards rethinking what gender even means 0:20:43.800 --> 0:20:47.320 it's happening right now, in moving towards racial progress, in 0:20:47.440 --> 0:20:50.480 moving towards giving immigrants, to the right state, all these 0:20:50.520 --> 0:20:53.560 things that I support one hundred and eighty five percent, 0:20:55.480 --> 0:21:01.240 we've kind of just been like, hope everybody are yeah, right. 0:21:01.840 --> 0:21:06.040 And to me, I say all that to say that, 0:21:06.760 --> 0:21:09.720 I look at everything happening now, all the backlashes, the 0:21:09.800 --> 0:21:11.879 things that make me as mad as anybody listening to this, 0:21:12.119 --> 0:21:17.000 and I think not weird, not random, not outrageous, logical, 0:21:17.400 --> 0:21:24.880 predictable symptoms erupting over our body politic given what we've 0:21:24.920 --> 0:21:27.200 been doing, what we've been putting in our body, what 0:21:27.680 --> 0:21:32.160 we have been going through, And that, to me actually 0:21:32.240 --> 0:21:35.320 opens up the conversation about how should we be guiding 0:21:35.359 --> 0:21:38.480 people through this era. What kinds of meaning making and 0:21:38.640 --> 0:21:43.119 organizing and storytelling could there be, Because if you just say, 0:21:43.240 --> 0:21:46.520 like there are some outrageous people doing outrageous things in 0:21:46.560 --> 0:21:48.720 our politics, there's nothing you can do. 0:21:49.080 --> 0:21:51.040 You just have to think, right, because you've just it's 0:21:51.119 --> 0:21:53.600 just a statement, right, It's not a solution. It's not 0:21:54.000 --> 0:21:58.120 oriented and really in understanding. My question though for you, 0:21:58.359 --> 0:22:02.880 is that if there were to be and you are 0:22:02.920 --> 0:22:08.399 one of those guides, with the books, conversations, and work 0:22:08.440 --> 0:22:10.480 that you put out into the universe to try and 0:22:10.600 --> 0:22:14.359 alter how people think and how they examine this moment. 0:22:15.680 --> 0:22:19.480 On one side, you would say that progressives and folks on 0:22:19.520 --> 0:22:21.520 the left would say, well, why do we have to 0:22:21.560 --> 0:22:26.000 handhold them? We've been handholding them, We've been catering to men, 0:22:26.240 --> 0:22:29.280 we've been handholding white people and telling them that their 0:22:29.320 --> 0:22:33.800 tears are okay and collectively holding them right like, I'm done, 0:22:33.960 --> 0:22:38.160 I'm exhausted, I'm over it, so honestly, because those are 0:22:38.200 --> 0:22:40.960 more so likely the people that are listening to this 0:22:41.000 --> 0:22:45.439 show right now, what's your response to that versus we 0:22:45.600 --> 0:22:49.800 know what the opposition, we know where the true opposition 0:22:50.280 --> 0:22:53.120 to that is. But what about those folks that are 0:22:53.160 --> 0:22:56.160 just like I'm tired, I don't want to hold your hand. 0:22:56.240 --> 0:22:58.520 I think you just as you always do, Like you 0:22:58.680 --> 0:23:04.840 just perfectly encounterated I think the idea that is behind 0:23:04.880 --> 0:23:07.240 why we don't do the thing I was describing earlier, 0:23:07.920 --> 0:23:11.760 And I think you perfectly encapsulated what I think is 0:23:11.920 --> 0:23:18.760 in some ways the biggest progressive mistake of the era. Right, 0:23:19.200 --> 0:23:21.240 And so let me start with like a mantra of mine, 0:23:21.560 --> 0:23:24.800 which is that I think the burden of citizenship is 0:23:24.840 --> 0:23:34.200 accepting that what is not your fault is sometimes your problem. Whooh, Okay, 0:23:34.440 --> 0:23:36.560 a lot of things are not any of our fault, 0:23:36.640 --> 0:23:40.800 but they are our problem. Okay, if you're nineteen, climate 0:23:40.880 --> 0:23:44.959 change is definitely not your fault. It's unfortunately your problem. 0:23:46.000 --> 0:23:47.639 You can't just say it's a problem with people who 0:23:47.680 --> 0:23:50.640 were like, lived longest and polluted the longest. Right part 0:23:50.640 --> 0:23:53.240 of citizenship, it is not your fault, is your problem. 0:23:54.359 --> 0:23:56.760 I think the real I one hundred percent get the 0:23:56.800 --> 0:23:58.800 emotion behind what you just said. 0:23:58.600 --> 0:23:59.320 And I hear it a lot. 0:24:00.720 --> 0:24:06.600 But I think we have to separate the fact that 0:24:06.720 --> 0:24:10.680 the opposition to some of these changes is not correct. 0:24:10.760 --> 0:24:11.399 It's wrong. 0:24:11.760 --> 0:24:15.520 Wanting to cling to white privilege and supremacy is wrong. 0:24:15.560 --> 0:24:18.520 It's substantively a wrong position. It's a wrong thing to 0:24:18.560 --> 0:24:21.680 cling to. It's a thing that can't be abolished fast enough. 0:24:22.359 --> 0:24:26.000 Wanting to cling to patriarchy and the ability to slap 0:24:26.040 --> 0:24:29.520 your secretary on the butt at work with impunity is wrong. 0:24:29.960 --> 0:24:33.760 And like, as fast as we can dismantle that, the better. Okay, 0:24:33.840 --> 0:24:39.600 So that's like point number one, point number two is that, 0:24:40.480 --> 0:24:44.560 and it's a more morally neutral point. Managing human beings 0:24:44.880 --> 0:24:52.000 from one state of being to another is very hard, okay, 0:24:52.359 --> 0:24:55.399 and people can seldom do it alone. And doing one 0:24:55.480 --> 0:25:00.200 hundred million people at the same time is like a 0:25:00.240 --> 0:25:06.480 social tsunami. Right, And someone I talked to for the 0:25:06.480 --> 0:25:10.320 persuader has made this very clear, Like people get a 0:25:10.320 --> 0:25:14.520 heart attack, okay, and you and that doctor will say 0:25:14.520 --> 0:25:18.000 to them, okay, like you can't eat this anymore, You 0:25:18.040 --> 0:25:21.240 can't eat that anymore, Like it will die within a 0:25:21.320 --> 0:25:27.000 year if you don't listen to these four rules of 0:25:27.000 --> 0:25:28.879 what you can and can I eat, right, and I 0:25:28.880 --> 0:25:32.040 forget the number, but like the overwhelming majority of people 0:25:32.840 --> 0:25:38.760 cannot comply with it. Don't compete, okay, I need you 0:25:38.840 --> 0:25:45.960 to change what you eat to stay alive. Yes, welcome 0:25:46.000 --> 0:25:49.440 to who we are. Most of us are like, ah, 0:25:49.520 --> 0:25:54.119 it's a lot, okay. So now think about an entire 0:25:54.240 --> 0:26:00.199 country built on certain ideas of race, white domination. Who 0:26:00.240 --> 0:26:03.080 gets to decide getting to be mediocre but still run 0:26:03.119 --> 0:26:09.200 the company, et cetera. On the gender side, like an 0:26:09.560 --> 0:26:15.639 entire elaborate structure of respect, esteem rewards for men for women, 0:26:15.800 --> 0:26:19.320 different ideas, roles. You want to get all rid of 0:26:19.359 --> 0:26:23.640 all of that rightfully in a five to six seven 0:26:23.720 --> 0:26:30.960