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Speaker 1: Diversion Audio.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to a special bonus episode of the greatest true

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Speaker 2: Crime Stories Ever told. I'm Emma Demuth from Diversion Audio,

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Speaker 2: where I work behind the scenes on the show. Diversion

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Speaker 2: Audio was born from the book publishing company Diversion Books,

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Speaker 2: back in twenty twenty. Our mission is to tell stories

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Speaker 2: that spark dialogue, rooted and compelling stories. In fact, stories

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Speaker 2: from the Diversion Library served as key sources for many

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Speaker 2: of our stories in season one. Today, we have a

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Speaker 2: special guest who is no stranger to the world of

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Speaker 2: ripping narratives and to many of the stories from the season.

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Speaker 2: Joining us is Keith Wollman, the editor in chief of

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Speaker 2: Diversion Books. Keith is an expert in curating stories that captivate.

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Speaker 2: In this episode, we'll unravel the mystery behind the enduring

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Speaker 2: fascination with true crime books and podcasts. Why do people

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Speaker 2: find solace in the genre? What is it about these

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Speaker 2: narratives that keep us on the edge of our seats,

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Speaker 2: and what does that say about society about us? Stay

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Speaker 2: tuned as we embark on a conversation with Keith Wallman

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Speaker 2: about the why behind the true crime genre. This is

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Speaker 2: the greatest True Crime Stories Ever Told. Thank you Keith

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Speaker 2: for us today. I'm really interested to hear about your

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Speaker 2: perspective and true crime, specifically from the book Angle. And

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Speaker 2: this episode also marks the end of season one of

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Speaker 2: our new show, The Greatest True Crime Stories Ever Told.

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Speaker 2: Speaking of I'd like to start by asking you what

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Speaker 2: your favorite story was from the season.

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Speaker 3: It's a pleasure to be here, Emma, thanks for having me.

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Speaker 3: I've got to go with the episode that was titled

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Speaker 3: Knife Through Hot Butter. It's based on a diversion title,

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Speaker 3: a Diversion Books title called Dancing with Death. And you've

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Speaker 3: got this multi layer Jeckyl and Hide character at the

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Speaker 3: center of Marjorie Orban. She's a former stripper and Vegas

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Speaker 3: showgirl turned into a suburban housewife. And you've got these

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Speaker 3: different settings, those different personalities, the showgirl versus the suburban

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Speaker 3: housewife mil you and the murder of her seventh husband,

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Speaker 3: and I think there's just so much tension between the

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Speaker 3: different sides of her personality and the different environments that

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Speaker 3: she inhabits. So to me, that's the best one of

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Speaker 3: the season. It's great.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think characters that have very multi dimensional personalities

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Speaker 2: do make the best stories. It kind of reminds me

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Speaker 2: of my personal favorite three episodes of the season was

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Speaker 2: the first female American serial Killer, which was actually our host,

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Speaker 2: Mary Kay mcraer. She wrote a book all about Jane Toppin,

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Speaker 2: and it was really fascinating because it starts off with

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Speaker 2: her childhood and you kind of get a good understanding

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Speaker 2: of not necessarily the why behind her crimes, but it

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Speaker 2: makes a little bit more sense knowing that backstory. A

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Speaker 2: lot of true crime is about stories with men killing women, unfortunately,

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Speaker 2: and with our show, our focus was to tell stories

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Speaker 2: in which women were not just the victim. I'm curious

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Speaker 2: in your experience, has there been any type of characters

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Speaker 2: that you've seen most often in the stories that have

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Speaker 2: been submitted to you and why do you think that

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Speaker 2: is sure thing?

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Speaker 3: Back to that check and Hide example, to have a

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Speaker 3: woman as the jeckal and Hyde is really unique because

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Speaker 3: most of the time it's the mild mannered man, the

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Speaker 3: doting husband, the businessman who's got the psychopathic impulses at night.

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Speaker 3: So this flips that script. But you know, there's almost

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Speaker 3: always the murdered or assaulted woman, and it's a good

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Speaker 3: thing to have a series that changes the perspective here

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Speaker 3: and gives us a look at humans in general who

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Speaker 3: have these evil impulses. In these true crime books, you've

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Speaker 3: often got the grieving family members, but there's usually one

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Speaker 3: or two who are determined, determined to get to the

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Speaker 3: bottom of the case, and those are the ones you

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Speaker 3: latch onto as the reader or the listener or the viewer.

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Speaker 3: Sometimes there's a journalist, a detective, an FBI agent trying

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Speaker 3: to piece it together. They've got their flaws as well well,

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Speaker 3: so they're really human and you can empathize with them,

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Speaker 3: and they're trying to piece together the clues, and you

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Speaker 3: can do it along with them. And I think that's

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Speaker 3: one of the thrills of true crime stories, is trying

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Speaker 3: to get to the bottom of it and having an

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Speaker 3: ally within the story itself.

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Speaker 2: You kind of just answer this, but I'm curious, what

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Speaker 2: do you look for in true crime writers and in

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Speaker 2: true crime stories.

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Speaker 3: One of the things I look for is an author's

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Speaker 3: understanding that a reader engaging in a book is looking

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Speaker 3: for escape. It's an escape and to double down on that. Sure,

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Speaker 3: you want action, you want the crime, you want some

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Speaker 3: heroes to follow, but you also want milieu. You want

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Speaker 3: to go someplace, another time, another geographic region, an interesting

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Speaker 3: culture or workplace. So the story of a crime set

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Speaker 3: in Prohibition era Kentucky, for example, takes you to the

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Speaker 3: world of bootleggers and moonshine in a different place. So

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Speaker 3: it's a form of escape. And if the author can

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Speaker 3: really paint that picture, well, they've done a great job.

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Speaker 3: So the setting of a true crime story is very important.

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Speaker 3: Night Through Hot Butter is a great example. Take me

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Speaker 3: to Las Vegas and the early two thousands among the showgirls.

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Speaker 3: I've never been there before, but I need an escape.

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Speaker 3: It's a diversion, right, diversion, books, diversion.

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Speaker 2: Audience, see what you do.

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Speaker 3: And then there's also if you're going to go with

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Speaker 3: a recognizable setting, if it's going to be in a

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Speaker 3: suburb that's familiar to what you're used to, you know,

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Speaker 3: the average everyday American town, then there is a way

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Speaker 3: that the author has to lean into the evil of

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Speaker 3: the perpetrator. So there are different elements depending on what

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Speaker 3: ingredients you have. You add a bit more of that,

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Speaker 3: a bit more of that. So the author is really

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Speaker 3: a chef taking the facts of the story, putting it

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Speaker 3: all together so that it's delicious, sometimes it's spicy, sometimes

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Speaker 3: you're a little nauseous, but it gets the emotions going.

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Speaker 3: And it's a challenging craft because we're dealing with crime

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Speaker 3: murder often, so how to make that entertaining or at

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Speaker 3: least to put us through a realm of emotions as

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Speaker 3: a reader. It's a hard challenge, and the best authors

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Speaker 3: do it well with different ingredients in different times.

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Speaker 2: A recent study by you gov, a lengthy studies in

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Speaker 2: the show Notes, has shown more than fifty percent of

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Speaker 2: Americans enjoy true crime content. Thirty five percent of Americans

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Speaker 2: consume true crime content, whether that be podcasts, movies, TV shows,

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Speaker 2: or books, at least once a week. In addition, sixty

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Speaker 2: two percent of American adults report being fans of media

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Speaker 2: specifically about serial killers. This same survey found that seventy

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Speaker 2: six percent Americans can are themselves fans of true crime.

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Speaker 2: That's a lot of people that love true crime. Keith,

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Speaker 2: in your opinion, why do you think people like true

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Speaker 2: crime contient so much?

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Speaker 3: I haven't quite done the research that you have. I'm impressed,

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Speaker 3: but absent of those statistics, I'd say there's that challenge

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Speaker 3: of trying to figure out who did it, and to

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Speaker 3: do that before the book or the podcast explains or

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Speaker 3: reveals who did it. So there's the puzzle aspect to

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Speaker 3: the whole thing. And just like any storytelling genre, I

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Speaker 3: think there's also that sympathy empathy element. You can put yourself,

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Speaker 3: If you can put yourself in the shoes of the

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Speaker 3: people who are in this story, that's a powerful, powerful thing,

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Speaker 3: and we want to do that. We want to escape

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Speaker 3: our everyday lives, and even if it's in a milieu

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Speaker 3: of evil, of something awful happening, it's a way to

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Speaker 3: have a change in our ordinary existence. There's the fear

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Speaker 3: factor elements. You can't ignore that. It's a jolt of energy.

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Speaker 3: And the books that really give you those cliffhangers at

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Speaker 3: the end of chapters and those little boosts of fear

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Speaker 3: are really great. So I think there's a lot of reasons,

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Speaker 3: and I think unless you're listening to or reading or

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Speaker 3: watching true crime to study law enforcement techniques, that you're

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Speaker 3: really in it for entertainment, but also to trigger that

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Speaker 3: sense of empathy in your being. And those are different things,

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Speaker 3: but they can work well together.

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Speaker 2: Another thing that one of our other producers, Mark told

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Speaker 2: me recently, was that men overwhelmingly love this. I forget

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Speaker 2: what the show is called, but there's this show about

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Speaker 2: airplane tragedies and how to survive different tragedies that can

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Speaker 2: happen on airplanes, and women overwhelmingly love true crime podcast.

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Speaker 2: I think a lot of the reason why men and

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Speaker 2: women are both attracted to both kinds of content is

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Speaker 2: because they want to understand how to survive if they're

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Speaker 2: ever in these kind of circumstances. So I do think

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Speaker 2: in a way there is an educational component. You want

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Speaker 2: to understand how serial colors think, what kind of tactics

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Speaker 2: they use to lure people. It's an education on how

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Speaker 2: to not be a victim in the future. And I

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Speaker 2: think that's fascinating and who would want to.

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Speaker 3: Learn that in a dry, boring way. Nobody exactly. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: So to have the entertainment, the storytelling aspect is really

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Speaker 3: really important. I'm with you. It's it's strange. I wonder

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Speaker 3: why men are so interested in the ancient Roman Empire too?

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Speaker 3: Do they want to learn how to be gladiators?

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Speaker 2: Yes, you've heard of True Crime is My Roman Empire?

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Speaker 2: Are you on TikTok Keith? You know that?

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Speaker 3: You know that, Yes, yes, exactly, yep.

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Speaker 2: I love it. You know, something else as producer that

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Speaker 2: I think about a lot, and we've touched upon this

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Speaker 2: a little bit, is at the end of the day,

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Speaker 2: we want to tell an entertaining story. But these are

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Speaker 2: true victims, true people, whether they're they're gone now or

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Speaker 2: if they have family members that are still suffering to

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Speaker 2: this day because of these losses. These are real people.

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Speaker 2: And how can we tell these stories in a way

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Speaker 2: that is respectful and tasteful. You know, I personally never

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Speaker 2: really thought about it until a few years ago. My

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Speaker 2: very best friend in the whole world, her boyfriend was

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Speaker 2: actually really tragically murdered and witnessing the aftermath of that

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Speaker 2: and how people around her treated her, strangers treated her,

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Speaker 2: you know, she and one day she got over ten

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Speaker 2: thousand follow requests on Instagram. And it's fascinating to me

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Speaker 2: how much people are drawn to tragedy in a way

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Speaker 2: like people want to feel close to tragedy. And it's

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Speaker 2: been a struggle to try to understand that while also

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Speaker 2: you know, working in entertainment and right telling these stories.

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Speaker 2: And I don't know if I have an answer of

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Speaker 2: how we can tell a true crime story in the

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Speaker 2: most tasteful way, and if that is even possible, I'm

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Speaker 2: curious on your thoughts. I know it's a hard question.

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Speaker 3: I think one of the important things is to remember

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Speaker 3: that these are stories of heightened human emotion, and we're

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Speaker 3: attracted to that. But we're not publishing horror, and we're

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Speaker 3: not doing podcasts that are in the horror genre. This

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Speaker 3: isn't about leaning into gruesomeness and pure evil. Although you

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Speaker 3: can explore evil in psychological ways. I don't think you

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Speaker 3: want to have an author convey a sense that they're

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Speaker 3: taking some sort of pleasure in writing about this. It's

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Speaker 3: different than that. There's a distinct difference between a challenging

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Speaker 3: and intriguing read versus pure shock.

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Speaker 2: Yep.

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Speaker 3: And I'm not interested in publishing or frankly reading pure shock.

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Speaker 3: I want to make those human connections as a reader.

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Speaker 3: So if it's in the midst of tragedy, there has

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Speaker 3: to be some sensitivity there, I think, and that's really

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Speaker 3: important in this genre for sure.

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Speaker 2: This is a special episode of the greatest true crime

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Speaker 2: Stories ever told. We'll be right back after the break.

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Speaker 2: So what is the most fascinating true crime story you've

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Speaker 2: ever published?

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Speaker 3: It's a great question. There are so many. I've done

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Speaker 3: lots of books in this genre. I'm going to point

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Speaker 3: to the first title that I published with Diversion called

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Speaker 3: The Bourbon King, The Life and Crimes of George Remus,

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Speaker 3: who's we call pro Prohibition's Evil Genius. So you're in

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Speaker 3: Cincinnati and Kentucky in the nineteen twenties. It's Prohibition and

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Speaker 3: he's got one of the largest illegal booze operations going

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Speaker 3: in the whole country, this guy named Remus, and he

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Speaker 3: goes to prison, and while he's in prison, a federal

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Speaker 3: agent seduces his wife and ends up having a relationship

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Speaker 3: with his wife. He finds out about it, he gets

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Speaker 3: out of prison somehow and he murders him. And then

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Speaker 3: you've got this fantastic trial and he's pumping money into

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Speaker 3: bribing the jurors and everything like that. But it's really

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Speaker 3: that Miliu getting to go to basically the bootleg capital

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Speaker 3: of America in the nineteen twenties, like jazz Age America,

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Speaker 3: where they're pumping out moonshine. That's really fantastic. So that

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Speaker 3: speaks to the element of Milliu again. And there's another

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Speaker 3: one that I'd point to that this book years ago.

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Speaker 3: It was called Terror in the City of Champions and

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Speaker 3: it was about the city of Detroit in the Great

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Speaker 3: Depression era. And what's really fascinating are all the things

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Speaker 3: that are happening around this one central murder. So Detroit

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Speaker 3: is suffering, people are looking for jobs, they're down on

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Speaker 3: their luck, but the sports teams in Detroit are winning

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Speaker 3: championships left and right, So there's this inspirational aspect to

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Speaker 3: the time and place. At the same time, you had

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Speaker 3: all of these people moving from the South up north

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Speaker 3: for jobs, and some of them brought elements of the

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Speaker 3: KKK to the North. So there was this offshoot group

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Speaker 3: in Detroit called the Black Legion. And at the center

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Speaker 3: of this story, in the Terror of the City of Champions,

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Speaker 3: there's a murder of a black man and one of

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Speaker 3: the Black Legion members who's I guess then you would

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Speaker 3: have called them, but he's not one of the higher ups,

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Speaker 3: but he's the star witness. And it's just an amazing story.

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Speaker 3: And again for me, the historical crime is really fascinating

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Speaker 3: because it's truly an escape. You're distant time, distant place,

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Speaker 3: and yet all of those human elements come through. So

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Speaker 3: those are my favorite kinds of true crime, but the

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Speaker 3: ones that you have on the podcast are all fantastic too.

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Speaker 2: This makes me think of another question when it comes

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Speaker 2: to historical crime. How much do you think the crime

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Speaker 2: is influenced from the environment versus the human being. It's interesting,

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Speaker 2: even in the first season we have characters from the

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Speaker 2: two thousands all the way to the eighteen hundreds. It

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Speaker 2: seems to me people haven't changed that much. But for instance,

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Speaker 2: the Prohibition story, if this man lived in the early

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Speaker 2: two thousands, do you think he still would have murdered

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Speaker 2: someone or do you think it's very circumstantial to Prohibition specifically.

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Speaker 3: It's a good question, and I think it is circumstantial.

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Speaker 3: George Remis was a lawyer and he got his start

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Speaker 3: in bootlegging by representing these low level rum runners and moonshiners.

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Speaker 3: And he realized that he could make a lot of

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Speaker 3: money if he went into it whole hog and do

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Speaker 3: it himself. So that's how he got involved. And then

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Speaker 3: he accumulated so much wealth and so much power that

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Speaker 3: he thought he was a king. And when this federal

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Speaker 3: agent took his wife, he felt like he could get

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Speaker 3: retribution and he went for it. But it's clearly the

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Speaker 3: environments and the setting that influenced the people. But I

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Speaker 3: don't know. I don't think it's that way all the time. Sometimes,

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Speaker 3: you know, there are people with these inclinations towards evil

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Speaker 3: and violence in every setting, and to combine the two

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Speaker 3: is the task of the author, or the podcast producer

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Speaker 3: or the filmmaker.

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Speaker 2: I agree, Yeah, I think it's a combination of circumstance

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Speaker 2: slash environment, but also who you are as a human being.

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Speaker 2: All Right, Keith, Well, thank you so much for joining

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Speaker 2: us today. This is a lot of fun discussing true

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Speaker 2: crime as a whole in and media. So hey, really

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Speaker 2: appreciate your time.

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Speaker 3: Thanks for having me. Emma, I appreciate it too.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for tuning in to this special episode of

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Speaker 2: the Greatest True Crime Stories Ever told. To learn more

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Speaker 2: about Diversion, check out Diversion Audio dot com or Diversion

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Speaker 2: Books dot com.

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Speaker 1: Diversion Audio