1 00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:07,160 Speaker 1: Als Media. Welcome to It could happen here a podcast 2 00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:09,160 Speaker 1: that I introduced the same way almost every time. I 3 00:00:09,160 --> 00:00:12,240 Speaker 1: don't know, you listen to the show, right, you're listening 4 00:00:12,360 --> 00:00:15,800 Speaker 1: at like some point in the future, you probably know 5 00:00:15,920 --> 00:00:18,400 Speaker 1: the things falling apart putting back together again Intro. I 6 00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:20,400 Speaker 1: don't have to do it. We are doing something that 7 00:00:20,400 --> 00:00:22,680 Speaker 1: we have done before and I guess we'll continue to do, 8 00:00:22,760 --> 00:00:26,279 Speaker 1: which is talking to other anarchist media projects about their 9 00:00:26,360 --> 00:00:31,000 Speaker 1: work and how things are going, and yeah, the general why, 10 00:00:31,080 --> 00:00:35,040 Speaker 1: how what of it all? And today we're talking with 11 00:00:35,080 --> 00:00:38,600 Speaker 1: the Collective Anarchist Writers, and very specifically we're talking to 12 00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:41,720 Speaker 1: Shirley Branson, who is a writer, translator, and teacher currently 13 00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:45,440 Speaker 1: living in so called New York. Carla joy Bergman who 14 00:00:45,520 --> 00:00:48,080 Speaker 1: lives across the border in Canada and is a mom, writer, 15 00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:50,879 Speaker 1: artist and loves crows. Very important. We'll be coming that 16 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:54,000 Speaker 1: back to that in a second. And Vicky osteriwhil who 17 00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:56,840 Speaker 1: is a worker, writer and agitator based in Philadelphia, And 18 00:00:56,920 --> 00:00:58,320 Speaker 1: all three of you, welcome to the show. 19 00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:01,480 Speaker 2: Hi, thanks for having us, Thanks so much for having us, 20 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:04,800 Speaker 2: for having us, love your project. I also just wanted 21 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:07,240 Speaker 2: to give a shout out to our fourth member, Danny 22 00:01:07,360 --> 00:01:11,280 Speaker 2: or listen, who's not here today because she's working paid work, 23 00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:14,880 Speaker 2: who just rounds us out so beautifully and wanted to 24 00:01:14,920 --> 00:01:15,520 Speaker 2: say her name. 25 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:18,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm excited to talk about this, and partly I'm 26 00:01:18,720 --> 00:01:21,840 Speaker 1: excited to talk about it because so the acronym for 27 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:24,720 Speaker 1: this is caw and there's a whole crow theme going on, 28 00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:27,920 Speaker 1: and we love a crow here in Portland. It is 29 00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:29,119 Speaker 1: maybe our big thing. 30 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:31,319 Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm in Vancouver. 31 00:01:31,760 --> 00:01:33,960 Speaker 2: Well I was in Vancouver, just stopped from there, but 32 00:01:34,080 --> 00:01:38,520 Speaker 2: Pacific Northwest and so it's pro highway, you know, thousands 33 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:39,600 Speaker 2: and thousands of crows. 34 00:01:40,160 --> 00:01:41,280 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I got it. 35 00:01:41,480 --> 00:01:43,880 Speaker 4: I think the crow is like what ultimately sealed the 36 00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:46,839 Speaker 4: project for us, honestly, Yeah, hell. 37 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:49,720 Speaker 5: Yeah it was. It really came together around around the 38 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:51,240 Speaker 5: Corvid theme, I think. 39 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:51,520 Speaker 6: Yeah. 40 00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:55,960 Speaker 5: Yeah, in the combination of enjoying shiny things, extreme intelligence, 41 00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:58,240 Speaker 5: and never ending spite. I think you're all sort of 42 00:01:58,280 --> 00:01:59,480 Speaker 5: motivating factors for all. 43 00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:04,280 Speaker 2: Of us, and that they are collective and have meetings 44 00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 2: often throughout the day. 45 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:09,440 Speaker 4: A collective called the Murder, which is also pretty badass. 46 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:13,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a huge thing in Portland here where we 47 00:02:13,919 --> 00:02:17,680 Speaker 1: have the Mega Murder. So every every like morning, all 48 00:02:17,720 --> 00:02:19,520 Speaker 1: the crows sort of fly off into their different like 49 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:22,160 Speaker 1: little murders, and they go they you know, they go 50 00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:24,440 Speaker 1: out and hang out in the city. And then at 51 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:27,399 Speaker 1: a round sunset every day, all of the crows fly 52 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:29,880 Speaker 1: back into the city. They have their like giant mega 53 00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:32,280 Speaker 1: murdering meeting. There's thousands and thousands of them. You know, 54 00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:34,320 Speaker 1: you look up and you just see them like the herds, 55 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:36,760 Speaker 1: like that, the murders. The crow is flying past. And 56 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:38,919 Speaker 1: if you there's bificent spots in Portland where you can 57 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:41,720 Speaker 1: just go see all of the all all all the 58 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:45,560 Speaker 1: crows hanging out and you know, doing doing doing whatever 59 00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:48,560 Speaker 1: the things crows do. When literally in entire cities where 60 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:50,120 Speaker 1: the crows gathered together every night. 61 00:02:50,200 --> 00:02:53,400 Speaker 4: Oh no, it's a spokes council. 62 00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:56,760 Speaker 1: I don't it's not a spokes assel because all of 63 00:02:56,760 --> 00:02:59,960 Speaker 1: them are there. I feel like that's an assembly. 64 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:04,800 Speaker 2: Yeah yeah. On Vancouver called it's called the Crow Highway. Yeah, 65 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:08,320 Speaker 2: hell yeah, because it's so massive and goes forever and 66 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:09,120 Speaker 2: ever and ever. 67 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:10,760 Speaker 3: To their roost. 68 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:15,320 Speaker 2: Brief story on crows and resistance A really incredible story 69 00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:19,880 Speaker 2: in Vancouver when a park was a colonial person created 70 00:03:19,880 --> 00:03:23,160 Speaker 2: a park in the downtown, which was like displaced a 71 00:03:23,240 --> 00:03:27,120 Speaker 2: lot of Indigenous people in their homes and designed this 72 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:30,160 Speaker 2: park that was filled with crows as well. They also 73 00:03:30,160 --> 00:03:33,400 Speaker 2: brought in animals from Europe as well to make it pretty, 74 00:03:33,720 --> 00:03:37,040 Speaker 2: and the crows made it really hard for these animals. 75 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:42,040 Speaker 2: And so the City of Vancouver for fifty years from 76 00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:47,640 Speaker 2: nineteen hundred to nineteen fifty gave free range to the 77 00:03:47,760 --> 00:03:52,280 Speaker 2: Vancouver Gun people to go into the park and shoot 78 00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:53,040 Speaker 2: crows every day. 79 00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:54,040 Speaker 1: Oh my god. 80 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:58,520 Speaker 2: And when I see like the amount of crows that 81 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:02,680 Speaker 2: are still alive, it's just some metaphor for Indigenous resilience, 82 00:04:02,840 --> 00:04:05,320 Speaker 2: you know, Like it's just so powerful. So it's another 83 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:08,560 Speaker 2: reason why I'm like interested in and in terms of 84 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:09,480 Speaker 2: where I was like. 85 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:13,080 Speaker 4: Living, as I been gathering images for our project that 86 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:17,880 Speaker 4: I've been specifically trying to find images of crows attacking 87 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:21,360 Speaker 4: people because I think that's good. So it's like, you know, 88 00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:23,599 Speaker 4: the follow up to what you were saying, Carla, is 89 00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:25,080 Speaker 4: the crow's revenge. 90 00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:25,960 Speaker 5: Yes. 91 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:27,400 Speaker 4: Yeah. 92 00:04:27,640 --> 00:04:29,200 Speaker 1: One of the things that you know you kind of 93 00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:30,760 Speaker 1: have to do here in Portland is you have to 94 00:04:30,839 --> 00:04:33,159 Speaker 1: kind of like negotiate with the crows. You have to 95 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:36,040 Speaker 1: like you leave them like peace offerings and you sort 96 00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:38,640 Speaker 1: of you know, when your friends come, you let you 97 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:40,680 Speaker 1: introduce them to the crows, or the crows know that 98 00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:45,560 Speaker 1: you're okay. It's very sweet shiny things. Yeah, we love 99 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:48,920 Speaker 1: a crow based society. And speaking of a crow based society, yeah, 100 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:50,800 Speaker 1: do you want to, I guess, give a brief sort 101 00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:54,320 Speaker 1: of overview of what Cause is before we get sort 102 00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:54,960 Speaker 1: of more into it. 103 00:04:55,560 --> 00:04:58,400 Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm happy to take a spin at that as VICKI. 104 00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:00,680 Speaker 5: By the way, Yeah, so cause of like I mean, 105 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:03,880 Speaker 5: it's an anarchist journal of arts and culture that is 106 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:07,000 Speaker 5: a collective of anarchist writers. It's also a Corvid appreciation 107 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:09,440 Speaker 5: working group. There's a lot of different acronyms for it. 108 00:05:09,880 --> 00:05:12,400 Speaker 5: And what we are doing is we are bringing all 109 00:05:12,440 --> 00:05:15,600 Speaker 5: for at first, just all four of our efforts together. 110 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:18,560 Speaker 5: So a lot of us work on separate podcasts. We 111 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 5: have pedagological tasks, We have many activist projects that center 112 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:24,440 Speaker 5: around culture. You know, I have a newsletter, Surely has 113 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:28,840 Speaker 5: a Patreon, Kyla has a newsletter, Danny has has also 114 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:30,640 Speaker 5: has like an email list. There's just all these different 115 00:05:30,640 --> 00:05:34,360 Speaker 5: projects and we realize that like for all of our 116 00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:37,600 Speaker 5: talk about mutual aid and working collectively when it comes 117 00:05:37,600 --> 00:05:42,040 Speaker 5: to writing and creativity, the market has been so fractured 118 00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:45,040 Speaker 5: and so alienated and sort of turned into like everyone 119 00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:47,480 Speaker 5: has an individual newsletter that they're competing with one another, 120 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:49,560 Speaker 5: you know, even though they don't want to be like 121 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:51,240 Speaker 5: they want to be. But that's sort of ultimately what's 122 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:53,920 Speaker 5: happening is that there's limited sort of customers. And there's 123 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:56,960 Speaker 5: also this other trend going on right now of this 124 00:05:57,120 --> 00:06:00,240 Speaker 5: really exciting kind of worker owned journals, a lot of 125 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:03,160 Speaker 5: them local journalisms. There's some in New York and Chicago, 126 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:05,680 Speaker 5: and there's one in Ashville and all over the country 127 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:08,280 Speaker 5: as well as like on special topics like aftermath, which 128 00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:10,000 Speaker 5: like does I think the other video games, and there's 129 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 5: four or four media it is tech. There's just like 130 00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:14,400 Speaker 5: all these different sort of sites doing this sort of thing, 131 00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:15,960 Speaker 5: and I think in some ways all of us are 132 00:06:15,960 --> 00:06:18,880 Speaker 5: sort of collectively reinventing the newspapers that have been sort 133 00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:21,320 Speaker 5: of stolen and destroyed by capital, you know. 134 00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:22,080 Speaker 6: In a big way. 135 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:22,839 Speaker 2: Yeah. 136 00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:24,440 Speaker 5: So there's sort of two goals that we have, and 137 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:27,039 Speaker 5: I think Carla Carla speaks really eloquently to some of this, 138 00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:31,239 Speaker 5: but one of which is to make writing radical culture 139 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:36,159 Speaker 5: work beautiful, joyful, fun and also critical like movement work, 140 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:38,920 Speaker 5: to make it sustainable for us and for anyone else 141 00:06:38,920 --> 00:06:41,720 Speaker 5: who wants to share in this project, who we can 142 00:06:41,760 --> 00:06:44,560 Speaker 5: sort of expand towards, but also to make it easier 143 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:46,599 Speaker 5: for people who are reading to have access to these things, 144 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:48,720 Speaker 5: like in one place, instead of having to, you know, 145 00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:50,960 Speaker 5: decide who they care for and who they like in 146 00:06:51,040 --> 00:06:53,440 Speaker 5: order to sort of, you know, do that mac of 147 00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:55,760 Speaker 5: like who can I afford to subscribe to? Like I personally, 148 00:06:55,760 --> 00:06:57,080 Speaker 5: I don't know if it's true for everyone else, but 149 00:06:57,240 --> 00:06:59,400 Speaker 5: personally I usually have about two or three people I 150 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:01,279 Speaker 5: can afford to subscribe to a month, and I switch 151 00:07:01,279 --> 00:07:03,840 Speaker 5: it out just like on a very arbitrary basis, you know, 152 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:08,200 Speaker 5: or something like that. That was very technical and financially focused. 153 00:07:08,279 --> 00:07:10,880 Speaker 5: But what we're really excited to do mostly is support 154 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:13,600 Speaker 5: each other's work, because I think we all really love 155 00:07:13,640 --> 00:07:15,480 Speaker 5: and admire each other's work and have for a long time, 156 00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:18,400 Speaker 5: and this is just this really exciting opportunity. Instead of 157 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:22,160 Speaker 5: my writing just being for me, it's for Julie and 158 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:24,560 Speaker 5: Carla and Danino, and that just makes it feel more 159 00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:27,680 Speaker 5: inspiring and exciting as well as a collective process. 160 00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:31,200 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean connected to the financial aspect. But I 161 00:07:31,240 --> 00:07:34,880 Speaker 4: think when we are initially discussing this, the experience of 162 00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:38,239 Speaker 4: being a writer is trying to find outlets for your writing. Yeah, 163 00:07:38,280 --> 00:07:40,080 Speaker 4: and if you're trying to get paid for that, you 164 00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:43,200 Speaker 4: have to sell it to people, right, And so it's 165 00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:45,360 Speaker 4: very hard to get paid at all for writing, and 166 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:48,880 Speaker 4: it's very hard to place your writing in venues to 167 00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:51,760 Speaker 4: publish it, especially if you're coming from an anarchist angle, 168 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:54,680 Speaker 4: because people do not really want to publish things that 169 00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:57,440 Speaker 4: come to anarchist conclusions, Like they want you to do 170 00:07:57,520 --> 00:08:00,120 Speaker 4: all the analysis and whatever, but they don't want you 171 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:02,960 Speaker 4: to think about like what an action is like. 172 00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:06,320 Speaker 6: So like, you know, you could write for some of 173 00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:07,600 Speaker 6: the lefty. 174 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:12,280 Speaker 4: So called lefty socialist whatever rags, but they don't. Yeah, 175 00:08:12,320 --> 00:08:15,280 Speaker 4: they won't feature anarchists. They basically even just act as 176 00:08:15,280 --> 00:08:19,480 Speaker 4: if anarchism doesn't exist, never exists, you know, never existed. 177 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:20,800 Speaker 6: They erase the whole history of it. 178 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 4: The only serious kind of political forces some kind of 179 00:08:23,640 --> 00:08:27,640 Speaker 4: democratic socialism. So to us, we wanted to create a 180 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:30,040 Speaker 4: place where we can do the writing we want to 181 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:32,760 Speaker 4: do without having to make compromises in what we want 182 00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:36,600 Speaker 4: to say. Just to get published because that, yeah, just 183 00:08:36,679 --> 00:08:39,640 Speaker 4: that game of like of shopping your stuff around is 184 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:43,960 Speaker 4: it's demeaning, It's totally time consuming. It distracts you from 185 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:48,080 Speaker 4: actually doing the work. So we were like, let's band 186 00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:51,959 Speaker 4: together instead of each of us going off wasting our 187 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:53,880 Speaker 4: time trying to write. 188 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:56,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think one of the other issues with 189 00:08:56,360 --> 00:08:58,480 Speaker 1: this too also like the pay is just so bad, 190 00:08:58,760 --> 00:09:02,560 Speaker 1: like even though almost especially the leftiscroops like page is 191 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:05,600 Speaker 1: so rancid, and all of the combinations of those things 192 00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:08,679 Speaker 1: make it really really hard to just sort of be 193 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:12,800 Speaker 1: an independent writer. And also, okay, jumping back a second, 194 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:15,679 Speaker 1: so they're raising anarchism exists. This is why. The one 195 00:09:15,679 --> 00:09:17,640 Speaker 1: that makes me always lose my mind is like I'm 196 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:20,480 Speaker 1: specifically gonna name Jocobin here because I don't like them. 197 00:09:20,559 --> 00:09:22,040 Speaker 1: But like, one of the things that jack Wum will 198 00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:24,520 Speaker 1: do is they'll be covering a strike that is organized 199 00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:27,360 Speaker 1: by the IWW. It is an IWW union, that they 200 00:09:27,400 --> 00:09:29,880 Speaker 1: will have pictures of the strike where there are a 201 00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:32,360 Speaker 1: bunch of people holding IWW banners, and they will never 202 00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:34,880 Speaker 1: mention that it was the IWW who organized the strike. 203 00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:38,960 Speaker 1: So like, yeah, there is this real sort of conspiracy 204 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:42,959 Speaker 1: of silence, I guess about our politics and the stuff 205 00:09:42,960 --> 00:09:43,840 Speaker 1: that we do in the world. 206 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:47,040 Speaker 4: It's so claring. Jacobin is definitely a big culprit. And 207 00:09:47,040 --> 00:09:50,080 Speaker 4: then the podcast associated with the dig, like they will 208 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:53,240 Speaker 4: specifically will be talking about history where anarchists have been 209 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:57,080 Speaker 4: very involved, and then they just will not mention them. 210 00:09:57,120 --> 00:09:59,760 Speaker 4: I'm like, and they sometimes there's really good history and 211 00:09:59,840 --> 00:10:02,960 Speaker 4: now that podcast, but like this is an omission that 212 00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:04,440 Speaker 4: they clearly are choosing. 213 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:09,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think, you know, self organization is effectively 214 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:12,000 Speaker 1: the only way out of this because why you just 215 00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:13,880 Speaker 1: sort of I don't know, have to deal with all 216 00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:16,240 Speaker 1: of the sort of media gatekeepers like sitting there in 217 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:20,160 Speaker 1: front of you with a stick going no anarchism of balk. 218 00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:23,400 Speaker 5: Yeah, and even the projects that have sustained, that have survived, 219 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:26,360 Speaker 5: which are all really awesome, you know, like and exciting, 220 00:10:26,679 --> 00:10:30,280 Speaker 5: Like very few of them have offered real sustainability, like 221 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:33,160 Speaker 5: on a professional level, and like I've been publishing like 222 00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:36,600 Speaker 5: quote unquote professionally for fifteen years and like I'm the 223 00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:39,600 Speaker 5: like newest writer on the scene, like from our crew basically, 224 00:10:39,640 --> 00:10:43,000 Speaker 5: like we're incredibly experienced, and all of us have books out, 225 00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:44,920 Speaker 5: all of us have edited volumes all of us have 226 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:47,520 Speaker 5: like podcasts, and like are people who I like, really 227 00:10:47,520 --> 00:10:49,640 Speaker 5: respect whose names I think are big and important in 228 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:52,880 Speaker 5: the world of theory and activism and like in the 229 00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:56,560 Speaker 5: anglophone world especially, And none of us can sustain ourselves 230 00:10:56,600 --> 00:10:59,840 Speaker 5: as writers as such because of the way that just 231 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:01,760 Speaker 5: you know, both politically but also just like the way 232 00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:04,800 Speaker 5: the market has come down. Yeah, and it just feels 233 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:07,240 Speaker 5: like something we could apply our politics to solving as 234 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:09,840 Speaker 5: a workplace issue rather than just sort of as like 235 00:11:09,880 --> 00:11:12,520 Speaker 5: a you know, are you committed enough to sacrifice all 236 00:11:12,559 --> 00:11:15,680 Speaker 5: your time issue? And so hopefully like that will also 237 00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:19,800 Speaker 5: function to make more work available to produce and to 238 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:23,480 Speaker 5: platform and to yeah, to to sort of work as 239 00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:24,720 Speaker 5: an example simultaneously. 240 00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:28,240 Speaker 1: Unfortunately, speaking of speaking of sustaining work as a platform, 241 00:11:28,520 --> 00:11:30,960 Speaker 1: unfortunately the way we are sustained here is with these ads. 242 00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:44,280 Speaker 1: So hold on and we are back, And this, I 243 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:47,199 Speaker 1: guess brings us to the kind of work that's happening here. 244 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:50,400 Speaker 1: And I was very excited because one of the things 245 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:53,520 Speaker 1: you all have done is an interview with Raouls of Becky, 246 00:11:53,679 --> 00:11:56,760 Speaker 1: who is the author of like one of my favorite 247 00:11:56,800 --> 00:11:58,760 Speaker 1: quotes of all time. I think I've said on this 248 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:01,920 Speaker 1: show like multiple times. I really ran into in a 249 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:04,920 Speaker 1: sort of completely unrelated book called Rhythms of the Patchacuti, 250 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:07,000 Speaker 1: which is about the sort of the water and gas 251 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:09,120 Speaker 1: wars in Bolivia. I talked about this book on the 252 00:12:09,160 --> 00:12:13,360 Speaker 1: show like all the time. This quote goes roughly like 253 00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:16,760 Speaker 1: struggle illuminates the divisions of a society like lightning illuminates 254 00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:18,440 Speaker 1: the sky. And I love it. It's like it's like 255 00:12:18,559 --> 00:12:20,720 Speaker 1: it's the best explanation of what happened during twenty twenty 256 00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:22,320 Speaker 1: that I've ever seen. And this is sort of what's 257 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:26,200 Speaker 1: happening like right now too. Is like you have these 258 00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:29,440 Speaker 1: sort of flashpoint moments where where you know, suddenly like 259 00:12:29,679 --> 00:12:32,960 Speaker 1: all of how society works very briefly becomes visible and 260 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:35,079 Speaker 1: you have this sort of moment when you're illuminated by 261 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:37,079 Speaker 1: it to act. And so I'm I don't know, I'm 262 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:41,199 Speaker 1: really excited that y'all are talking to him, And yeah, 263 00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:43,440 Speaker 1: because you talked at a bit more about what's been 264 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:44,560 Speaker 1: going on and what's to come. 265 00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:46,080 Speaker 3: I'm sure. Thanks. 266 00:12:46,240 --> 00:12:49,160 Speaker 2: That was a highlight definitely this year was talking to 267 00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:52,800 Speaker 2: Raoul obviously, you know a podcastco We talked for quite 268 00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:56,680 Speaker 2: a bit longer than what was on the show, and I. 269 00:12:56,600 --> 00:12:59,439 Speaker 3: Think like reading his newest book that was. 270 00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:03,480 Speaker 2: Translated and then doing that show with him, it was 271 00:13:03,640 --> 00:13:07,520 Speaker 2: completely connected to me, like reaching out to Suley about 272 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:11,480 Speaker 2: doing Call, because there is a way that we that 273 00:13:11,559 --> 00:13:15,120 Speaker 2: he talked about this whole idea of disappearing symmetries that 274 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:18,320 Speaker 2: those Bapatistas are working on, like this idea of really 275 00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:23,160 Speaker 2: truly looking at all the fault lines within horizontality or 276 00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:26,199 Speaker 2: automy that we don't actually enact in our day to 277 00:13:26,280 --> 00:13:29,200 Speaker 2: day lives. And so I really started to reflect on 278 00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:32,880 Speaker 2: my own life that way, and not so much Vicky 279 00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:35,520 Speaker 2: at this point yet, but like Suley and Danny, both 280 00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:38,160 Speaker 2: of them, like we just were blurbing each other's books 281 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:42,400 Speaker 2: and like supporting each other, connecting to publishers or trying 282 00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:46,319 Speaker 2: to connect each other to publishers, and just like trying 283 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:49,440 Speaker 2: to disrupt a competitive nature that's running underneath even when 284 00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:52,439 Speaker 2: we're all really committed to not being competitive, but there's 285 00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:55,960 Speaker 2: it is, like there's a you know. So all is 286 00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:59,080 Speaker 2: to say that for me, like collaboration is at the 287 00:13:59,120 --> 00:14:02,440 Speaker 2: heart of we're doing here in a deep, deep way, 288 00:14:02,559 --> 00:14:07,080 Speaker 2: and for me, collaboration just means that when something is 289 00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:10,640 Speaker 2: created that wouldn't be created otherwise without this collaboration. So 290 00:14:10,880 --> 00:14:13,360 Speaker 2: I'm just really excited to see what sparks and comes 291 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:16,520 Speaker 2: up individually, but also like with each other and even 292 00:14:16,640 --> 00:14:19,800 Speaker 2: like through collaborations like the show with Raoul and like 293 00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:25,080 Speaker 2: how that spreads seeds and ideas. Yeah, So like for myself, 294 00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:28,600 Speaker 2: I'm going to definitely focus on collaboration in a deep way. 295 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:30,840 Speaker 2: I don't think I'll write very much solo stuff for 296 00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:33,960 Speaker 2: the for call. I think it will always be in 297 00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:38,040 Speaker 2: conversation with others and just trying to double down on 298 00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:43,440 Speaker 2: on doing it together instead of individual pursuits. 299 00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:45,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's something I think this is useful for 300 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:47,880 Speaker 1: everyone listening to this, is that, like it's a lot 301 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:51,840 Speaker 1: easier to develop better ideas, and you know, it makes 302 00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:55,040 Speaker 1: your writing more clear. It makes the way that you, you know, 303 00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:56,520 Speaker 1: just the way you act in the world a lot 304 00:14:56,600 --> 00:14:59,160 Speaker 1: more clear when you're working with other people and it's 305 00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:01,040 Speaker 1: you know, it's it's it's the process by which the 306 00:15:01,040 --> 00:15:02,920 Speaker 1: best stuff gets created. 307 00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:05,600 Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean I think that's really like true. And 308 00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:08,640 Speaker 5: I think like I have for a long time now 309 00:15:08,840 --> 00:15:11,600 Speaker 5: sort of accepted that writing is never going to support 310 00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:14,160 Speaker 5: or sustain me and all I needed was a push 311 00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:15,880 Speaker 5: from a few other people to be like, wait, what 312 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:18,000 Speaker 5: if we like actually tried to do it collectively, to 313 00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:20,120 Speaker 5: be like, oh yeah, like I could actually try that, 314 00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:21,760 Speaker 5: Like I don't have to just accept that, like I'll 315 00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:25,360 Speaker 5: always have like a full time job plus whatever writing, 316 00:15:25,480 --> 00:15:27,640 Speaker 5: like in whatever hours I can steal, you know, and like, 317 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:31,480 Speaker 5: you know, with great difficulty put out some writing sometimes 318 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:33,200 Speaker 5: and then always feel guilty when I'm not putting out 319 00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:36,040 Speaker 5: enough to like sustain myself. Like that whole process. I 320 00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:38,440 Speaker 5: think a lot of creatives right now know that struggle, 321 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:41,840 Speaker 5: you know, of having gigs and work and lots of 322 00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:44,920 Speaker 5: other important things to do and and you know, sort 323 00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:46,960 Speaker 5: of accepting that that's the conditions. And I think, like, 324 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:49,680 Speaker 5: what's so inspiring about, you know, because Carla and and 325 00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:51,600 Speaker 5: as Carlo was just mentioning, they sort of brought I'm 326 00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:53,200 Speaker 5: the last one on the on the crew, and I 327 00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:55,400 Speaker 5: was sort of the closer, you know or whatever. But 328 00:15:55,440 --> 00:15:58,000 Speaker 5: I think, like, I don't know what that means genuinely, 329 00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:01,680 Speaker 5: but but I was broughtup. And I think just having 330 00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:04,920 Speaker 5: them propose it already just as a project that we've 331 00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:06,600 Speaker 5: been thinking of, has like changed the way I've been 332 00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:09,440 Speaker 5: thinking about what is possible with the writing I'm already doing. 333 00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:11,840 Speaker 5: And then so I think, like just to underline that 334 00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:15,040 Speaker 5: point and go on and on, collaborations really really like 335 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:19,040 Speaker 5: important and supporting one another is so is so powerful. 336 00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:22,280 Speaker 4: Yeah, when carl and I initially had like the seed 337 00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:27,400 Speaker 4: conversation of this, like Carla said something about collectivizing as writers, 338 00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:30,200 Speaker 4: like we talk about it with all these other other 339 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:34,240 Speaker 4: workplaces and industries and whatever, and it was like like 340 00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:36,360 Speaker 4: when when she said that, I was like, oh, yeah, 341 00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:38,920 Speaker 4: like that makes so much sense that we're off here 342 00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:42,240 Speaker 4: doing our own thing. And as Vicky said, you do 343 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:45,640 Speaker 4: it sort of with the knowledge that it's not sustainable. 344 00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:47,760 Speaker 4: You steal your time to do it. 345 00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:48,800 Speaker 6: Right, Even the. 346 00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:52,600 Speaker 4: Supposed jobs that are there to enable you to write 347 00:16:53,280 --> 00:16:55,840 Speaker 4: actually make you do all this other work. So like 348 00:16:56,200 --> 00:17:00,400 Speaker 4: the time for writing is always like endlessly deferred. And 349 00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:02,400 Speaker 4: you know, we have that image also, like of the 350 00:17:02,440 --> 00:17:04,720 Speaker 4: patron or something, or like Virginia Woolf says, you need 351 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:07,159 Speaker 4: money enough to have a room of one's own. But 352 00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:11,800 Speaker 4: if we put ourselves together in this way, then we 353 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:14,200 Speaker 4: are trying to, yeah, I don't know, create more time 354 00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:16,439 Speaker 4: for ourselves to write. And then like going back to 355 00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:20,120 Speaker 4: something Vicky said earlier about like reinventing the newspaper, there 356 00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:23,280 Speaker 4: was a time in anarchism where like I think we 357 00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:26,080 Speaker 4: talked about this amongst ourselves, like where like every block 358 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:29,480 Speaker 4: had like a Yiddish anarchist newspaper, right. It wasn't like, yeah, 359 00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:32,400 Speaker 4: you had one newspaper telling all the anarchists what to think. 360 00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:34,360 Speaker 4: It was like it was hyper local in a way, 361 00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:37,280 Speaker 4: and there was so many voices. And so I think 362 00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:39,040 Speaker 4: that's another thing that we want to do, is like 363 00:17:39,119 --> 00:17:42,520 Speaker 4: help for that proliferation, because in the sort of spirit 364 00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:45,520 Speaker 4: of collaboration, like the reason to write as an anarchist 365 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:48,720 Speaker 4: for me is to have conversations to produce the possibility 366 00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:52,040 Speaker 4: for people to like receive it and then contact me 367 00:17:52,119 --> 00:17:54,520 Speaker 4: into and I get into conversations with people and learn 368 00:17:54,560 --> 00:17:55,240 Speaker 4: things from them. 369 00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:57,639 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's an angle there too, where like 370 00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:00,439 Speaker 1: I think we're kind of okay, So I was a 371 00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:03,520 Speaker 1: tiny baby when all this was happening, So I'm I'm 372 00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:05,320 Speaker 1: gonna have to rely on y'all for this. But like 373 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:07,320 Speaker 1: you know, one of the things I get sort of 374 00:18:07,359 --> 00:18:11,240 Speaker 1: reading the record about like the older anarchist movement, I 375 00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:13,680 Speaker 1: mean When I say older, I mean like like anti 376 00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:16,399 Speaker 1: anti globalization era stuff was like there seems like there 377 00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:18,240 Speaker 1: was a lot more of a kind of like anarchist 378 00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:18,879 Speaker 1: media sphere. 379 00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:21,720 Speaker 3: Are you talking about like the late nineties. 380 00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:23,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, like like like to the two thousands, to. 381 00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:25,400 Speaker 3: Some extent like a Battle Seattle. 382 00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:28,680 Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, I mean that was like the you know, 383 00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:33,119 Speaker 2: the birth of anarchy again, right, yeah, I was definitely around. 384 00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:38,160 Speaker 2: I'm in my late fifties, but the same struggle was there, 385 00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:42,480 Speaker 2: like that that we're swimming in liberalism and like that 386 00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:47,159 Speaker 2: socialist worker like capturing of the movement was just as 387 00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:49,240 Speaker 2: powerful then, and it was you saw it at all 388 00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:53,000 Speaker 2: the rallies and stuff, and you know, immediately anarchism was 389 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:57,439 Speaker 2: marginalized and pushed off as irrelevant and not practical for 390 00:18:57,480 --> 00:19:00,320 Speaker 2: the revolution. And this is why it's clinch off and 391 00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:03,639 Speaker 2: all these kind of sectarian movements in the That's my 392 00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:04,840 Speaker 2: take anyway. 393 00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:07,280 Speaker 1: I think that no, it makes sense. It makes sense. 394 00:19:07,520 --> 00:19:10,080 Speaker 2: I mean I've hashed this out with so many older 395 00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:12,800 Speaker 2: anarchists that I was part of Institute for Anarchist Studies, 396 00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:15,720 Speaker 2: Like we talked about this a lot phenomena with Scott 397 00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:18,280 Speaker 2: Crow and you can just see the direct line of 398 00:19:18,359 --> 00:19:22,560 Speaker 2: where it went into sectarianism from this sort of rebirth. 399 00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:24,800 Speaker 2: Sorry I went off on a different thing instead of 400 00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:25,879 Speaker 2: like journals and media. 401 00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:28,400 Speaker 1: But yeah, no, no, well this is good too, because 402 00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:30,120 Speaker 1: like I think that's the other thing I've been realizing 403 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:32,680 Speaker 1: is like people don't I mean in my generation too, 404 00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:35,439 Speaker 1: but like people younger than me don't really know the 405 00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:37,240 Speaker 1: history of this stuff. Like all the time I have 406 00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:39,240 Speaker 1: conversations with people where I start talking about like the 407 00:19:39,280 --> 00:19:42,080 Speaker 1: Wojaca uprising, and they have no idea what I'm talking about, 408 00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:44,800 Speaker 1: And I'm like, oh, no, we need to, like we 409 00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:46,800 Speaker 1: need to like resuscitate the history of like the two 410 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:48,920 Speaker 1: thousands because stuff happened there. 411 00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:52,200 Speaker 5: So I wasn't actually active at that point, but I 412 00:19:52,359 --> 00:19:55,479 Speaker 5: was like very adjacent to some of that stuff at 413 00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:58,280 Speaker 5: the moment. And some of that was actually because a 414 00:19:58,320 --> 00:20:01,040 Speaker 5: lot of what was going on in the globalization movement 415 00:20:01,119 --> 00:20:04,680 Speaker 5: in that period was happening through culture. I think most famously, 416 00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:08,600 Speaker 5: like touring punk bands would also bring zene libraries with them, 417 00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:11,359 Speaker 5: so they would have someone destroying zines and playing the show. 418 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:13,359 Speaker 5: And like, I mean I got radicalized through punk. I 419 00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:14,720 Speaker 5: know a lot of people who did that. Was you 420 00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:16,560 Speaker 5: know when I finally did, it was after that movement 421 00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:19,040 Speaker 5: had largely crusted, But I think there was a lot 422 00:20:19,119 --> 00:20:22,800 Speaker 5: of focus on culture, and also a critique of culture 423 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:27,600 Speaker 5: was also pretty central to how people were thinking and moving, 424 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:30,560 Speaker 5: And I think the explosion of social media and like 425 00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:35,359 Speaker 5: posting and like the sort of quote unquote democratization and 426 00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:39,440 Speaker 5: leveling of communication capabilities, which in some ways was more 427 00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:41,879 Speaker 5: real in the early twenty tens than it is certainly 428 00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:44,640 Speaker 5: than it is now. It wasn't totally like a made 429 00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:46,840 Speaker 5: up narrative, but there was also it was also over 430 00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:49,600 Speaker 5: relied on. I think people sort of reached for a 431 00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:52,399 Speaker 5: kind of like, well, anyone who can use these tools 432 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:55,760 Speaker 5: to communicate, like, that's valuable. So critiquing sort of media 433 00:20:56,320 --> 00:20:58,680 Speaker 5: in general, or critiquing sort of capitalist media is sort 434 00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:00,600 Speaker 5: of beside the point because we can around it. We 435 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:02,159 Speaker 5: can sort of go we can you know, go on 436 00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:03,840 Speaker 5: Twitter and subvert it, and we can like do all 437 00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:06,800 Speaker 5: these you know, go sideways around it. So I was, 438 00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:08,840 Speaker 5: you know, a participant in to Occupy Wall Street in 439 00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:11,080 Speaker 5: two's eleven, which people also don't know anything about because 440 00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:15,399 Speaker 5: that's just being older. But Occupy Wall Street was started 441 00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:18,360 Speaker 5: by a magazine called Adbusters, which came out of the 442 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:21,520 Speaker 5: WTO movement and sort of managed to stick around, and 443 00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:24,160 Speaker 5: that by twenty eleven. When they did that, we thought 444 00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:25,840 Speaker 5: it was like a joke. It was like, oh, these 445 00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:28,919 Speaker 5: culture jammers who like make fun of advertisements, like they 446 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:31,680 Speaker 5: started the movement. Like that's ridiculous, right, Like that's silly, 447 00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:35,280 Speaker 5: and like this is not to defend Adbusters, I think, whatever. 448 00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:37,400 Speaker 1: We yeah, there's some issues with them, but yeah, yeah, 449 00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:38,959 Speaker 1: they also did I don't know. 450 00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:41,639 Speaker 5: Yeah, But also I think that reaction of like culture 451 00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:43,600 Speaker 5: jamming is sort of stupid or like, you know, like 452 00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:46,480 Speaker 5: talking about who wants to talk about culture? At this point, 453 00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:49,399 Speaker 5: I think that that made sense in the context in 454 00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:52,000 Speaker 5: which we were moving and organizing, but like, now, once 455 00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:54,760 Speaker 5: again it is clear that by abandoning the cultural sphere 456 00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:57,840 Speaker 5: in many ways, we have in fact lost a tremendous 457 00:21:57,840 --> 00:22:00,000 Speaker 5: amount of ground. So I think it's actually really important 458 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:03,280 Speaker 5: to have cultural organizations that aren't just theory, that aren't 459 00:22:03,359 --> 00:22:06,520 Speaker 5: just news, but that are like really talking about art 460 00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:10,520 Speaker 5: and beauty and excitement and joy and fiction and all 461 00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:14,000 Speaker 5: these things that we find really important. Because you know, 462 00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:15,520 Speaker 5: I think a lot of people sort of think, well, 463 00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:17,479 Speaker 5: it's a crisis moment. You know, the world's ending. Why 464 00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:19,000 Speaker 5: would you do that? But like the world has been 465 00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:21,960 Speaker 5: ending since fourteen ninety two, Like the world worth defending 466 00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:24,480 Speaker 5: has been ending since then, and it hasn't ended yet. 467 00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:27,119 Speaker 5: And one of the ways it hasn't ended is by 468 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:32,359 Speaker 5: indigenous and black and other marginalized cultures and stories and 469 00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:35,400 Speaker 5: narratives and works of art has been an important mode 470 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:38,320 Speaker 5: of history and resistance just as much as organizing and struggle. 471 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:41,800 Speaker 5: And yeah, I think we can move some struggle into 472 00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:43,200 Speaker 5: that terrain right now. And I think there's a lot 473 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:46,679 Speaker 5: of craving for it now because I think also for 474 00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:50,320 Speaker 5: a while things felt really oversaturated. But the last five years, 475 00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:53,359 Speaker 5: the internet doesn't feel helpful anymore. No, everything feels like 476 00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:55,760 Speaker 5: streaming is a mess. Like everything's a mess. There's no 477 00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:58,640 Speaker 5: access to culture that feels good. Everyone hates what they're doing. 478 00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:00,960 Speaker 5: They know it's exploiting the artists. They know, you know, 479 00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:03,960 Speaker 5: Spotify is giving people pennies, and that you know, Hbo 480 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:06,040 Speaker 5: and all those you know, all the all the streaming 481 00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:09,560 Speaker 5: services you know support Amazon, and they're they're just miserable, right, 482 00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:11,840 Speaker 5: And I think there's there's a real opening and a 483 00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:15,359 Speaker 5: real desire for something else at this moment, at the 484 00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:20,080 Speaker 5: same time that things are indeed quite on fire literally ecocidally, 485 00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:21,640 Speaker 5: but also also sort of politically. 486 00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:23,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, speaking of everything being on fire, we need to 487 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:25,560 Speaker 1: take an ad break and then we will come back. 488 00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:27,680 Speaker 1: And I think the deliberate political intervention here. 489 00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:37,280 Speaker 4: We are. 490 00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:41,120 Speaker 1: We are back from capital healthscape to mild do less 491 00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:43,760 Speaker 1: capital healthscape. Yu, you were gonna say. 492 00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:46,720 Speaker 4: Yeah, I wanted to just build on this culture thing, 493 00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:50,080 Speaker 4: because when you know, when after October seventh, people are 494 00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:52,399 Speaker 4: getting together to try to figure out how in the 495 00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:55,359 Speaker 4: United States to do some kind of work and action 496 00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:59,320 Speaker 4: and support and solidarity with Gaza and the Palestinian liberation movement, 497 00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:01,080 Speaker 4: Like people were sort of like, what the hell can 498 00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:02,960 Speaker 4: we even do? And one of the things that I 499 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:05,720 Speaker 4: would say to people is like just putting up stickers 500 00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:08,879 Speaker 4: and writing about Gaza on the walls, like in graffiti 501 00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:12,120 Speaker 4: has a huge impact in it. It's overlooked often, I think, 502 00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:16,200 Speaker 4: as like something that's effective. But we can see that 503 00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:19,520 Speaker 4: there has been a giant cultural shift after October seventh 504 00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:23,560 Speaker 4: in terms of people's awareness of the Israeli ginocide against 505 00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:26,680 Speaker 4: the Palestinians and then support for the Palestinians. I think 506 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:30,680 Speaker 4: that it has to do really, you know, post October seventh, 507 00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:33,440 Speaker 4: with the fact that this was like kind of plastered everywhere, 508 00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:36,040 Speaker 4: and so it's easy to kind of think that that 509 00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:39,399 Speaker 4: isn't action. But to me, in a way, doing something 510 00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:41,600 Speaker 4: like that is more effective than the kind of marching 511 00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:45,160 Speaker 4: in circles that we can do that we call protest. 512 00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:48,640 Speaker 4: And you know, like going back to punk, I think 513 00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:52,119 Speaker 4: also Punk has gets a bad rap sometimes because you know, 514 00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:55,080 Speaker 4: in that line of like the kind of bookschin lifestylism. 515 00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:59,200 Speaker 4: But I don't think we should downplay like punk created 516 00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:04,360 Speaker 4: its own culture of people doing everything themselves to make 517 00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:07,520 Speaker 4: it happen. It's where I got radicalized too, and they 518 00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:10,960 Speaker 4: were like it was anarchist, right, It was like explicitly anarchist, 519 00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:14,119 Speaker 4: and you were living in an anarchist way and like 520 00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:16,479 Speaker 4: creating things in an anarchist way, and it was this 521 00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:20,119 Speaker 4: whole other world. So like, if we put our anarchist 522 00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:24,040 Speaker 4: energy into culture, it's part of making a world that 523 00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:26,960 Speaker 4: we want to live in, you know, over and against 524 00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:29,560 Speaker 4: this world, this hell world that we're also trying to 525 00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:32,760 Speaker 4: destroy at the same time. So I think we shouldn't 526 00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:36,760 Speaker 4: kind of just like dismiss this as as less important 527 00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:40,160 Speaker 4: than the other kinds of actions that we can take. 528 00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:43,359 Speaker 1: You're here, Yeah, And that brings me to something I 529 00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:46,600 Speaker 1: wanted to sort of ask about, like more deliberately, which is, like, 530 00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:50,200 Speaker 1: what's the kind of specific political intervention that you're trying 531 00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:53,000 Speaker 1: to make into this moment with this project? And both sorts, 532 00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:56,119 Speaker 1: I guess a bit more generally, too big question. 533 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:01,960 Speaker 2: I mean, I my work has always been about intervening 534 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:06,800 Speaker 2: around any kind of dominant narratives that things are just 535 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:10,679 Speaker 2: now bad, or that people don't know what anything, or 536 00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:14,080 Speaker 2: pedagogically they're lacking. Like I've always tried to intervene around 537 00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:16,800 Speaker 2: this idea that we've always been otherwise and we always are, 538 00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:21,840 Speaker 2: and there's always cracks everywhere and eruptions of radical ways 539 00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:25,199 Speaker 2: of being and knowing and doing, and so it's like 540 00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:27,679 Speaker 2: a deepening of that. And I think probably on a 541 00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:33,359 Speaker 2: systemic thinking, systemically is really about disrupting individualism or liberalism 542 00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:37,040 Speaker 2: or empire, whatever you want, of colonialism to really like 543 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:38,280 Speaker 2: live it in the everyday. 544 00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:40,320 Speaker 3: So that's partly that. 545 00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:43,480 Speaker 2: And then on just a super practical level, like you know, 546 00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:47,040 Speaker 2: all of us don't have wealth, don't have generational wealth, 547 00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:50,639 Speaker 2: are working all the time to try to meet and 548 00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:54,040 Speaker 2: meant and some of us are have housing insecurity and 549 00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:59,119 Speaker 2: other real basic needs are insecure and health stuff and 550 00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:02,800 Speaker 2: so like actually showing up for each of us is 551 00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:05,240 Speaker 2: at the core of it. For me, Like I it 552 00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:09,080 Speaker 2: feels so good in my body to know that I'm 553 00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:11,639 Speaker 2: not just showing up to think about what to do 554 00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:14,520 Speaker 2: for cow. For me, it's like in the act of 555 00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:19,240 Speaker 2: collectivism for each other. And so I'm just open to 556 00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:23,399 Speaker 2: what sparks and emerges with our work. I don't have 557 00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:29,320 Speaker 2: an agenda except for to disrupt and intervene belief systems 558 00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:33,600 Speaker 2: that are ideologically driven by empire. And I also came 559 00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:36,280 Speaker 2: of age in the early eighties in the punk scene 560 00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:38,800 Speaker 2: and had a venue space, and to me, punk is 561 00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:41,520 Speaker 2: and I would say hip hop is well underground hip 562 00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:45,880 Speaker 2: hop stuff is like always the way to disrupt being 563 00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:49,000 Speaker 2: captured by empire or from liberalism is to keep that 564 00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:52,320 Speaker 2: punk ethos of doing it together and keeping it low 565 00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:52,919 Speaker 2: to the ground. 566 00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:56,119 Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I just like to build on that, Carl, 567 00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:58,960 Speaker 5: because I think that was really beautiful. Second, everything that 568 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:01,280 Speaker 5: you said is it like many of us have a perspective. 569 00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:03,639 Speaker 5: You know that huge structural change is going to need 570 00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:05,600 Speaker 5: to come, and that often that will come through these 571 00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:09,199 Speaker 5: big social movements, that these explosions of energy that you know, 572 00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:12,679 Speaker 5: these lightning strikes, right, but you can't force those, you 573 00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:16,600 Speaker 5: can't make those happen. Yeah, and in the meantime you can. 574 00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:18,960 Speaker 5: I think I've spent a lot of my in the 575 00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:23,240 Speaker 5: meantimes in trying to sort of organize stuff that sort 576 00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:25,720 Speaker 5: of oriented towards mass movement, you know, and it just 577 00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:28,160 Speaker 5: feels often feels like wheal spinning, you know, like I'm 578 00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:30,960 Speaker 5: build I'm trying to build mass movement organizing like you know, 579 00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:33,639 Speaker 5: like whatever that means. And in the twenty tens, like 580 00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:36,159 Speaker 5: one of the things that happens from like twenty eleven 581 00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:38,920 Speaker 5: are youdly two thousand nine, but definitely twenty eleven to 582 00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:41,520 Speaker 5: twenty twenty was that wherever you were, it was never 583 00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:44,000 Speaker 5: more than probably eighteen months before there was like something 584 00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:46,920 Speaker 5: else going off in the streets. And so although those 585 00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:49,120 Speaker 5: could be very hard, those waves could be very difficult, 586 00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:52,600 Speaker 5: you still had a lot of periods where you know, 587 00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:54,160 Speaker 5: you could just sort of be waiting and it would 588 00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:54,760 Speaker 5: just sort of happened. 589 00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:55,000 Speaker 3: Again. 590 00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:57,200 Speaker 5: That was certainly what I was doing in that decade 591 00:28:57,240 --> 00:28:59,280 Speaker 5: and in a way that I don't think I appreciated 592 00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:02,360 Speaker 5: until it was over. Yea, because the last four years 593 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:04,560 Speaker 5: has been very different. The rhythm has been very different 594 00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:08,400 Speaker 5: since the pandemic started. And I can't just say Panini 595 00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:13,680 Speaker 5: on this podcast, Okay, everyone does it right, Yeah, since 596 00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:17,800 Speaker 5: since the dynamics started, you know, those rhythms have been disrupted, 597 00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:20,320 Speaker 5: and I think the Biden counter revolution against Way twenty 598 00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:22,840 Speaker 5: which has also really disrupted those things. And in that 599 00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:25,800 Speaker 5: space it has felt very clear to me personally, and 600 00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:27,920 Speaker 5: I'm older, you know whatever. I'm like, you know, a 601 00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:30,040 Speaker 5: movement elder at this point, just because our movements are 602 00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:34,600 Speaker 5: so you focused now, because I'm actually old. Like the 603 00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:37,960 Speaker 5: decade before twenty eleven, from like two thousand and one, 604 00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:40,320 Speaker 5: you know, from nine to eleven until sort of occupies 605 00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:43,000 Speaker 5: sort of how I periodize it a bit, There wasn't 606 00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:44,760 Speaker 5: a ton of street movement. You had the Iraq War 607 00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:46,920 Speaker 5: stuff that was really really big, and there were important 608 00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:49,240 Speaker 5: exceptions to that in the US. I'm doing a potted 609 00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:52,320 Speaker 5: history here. Obviously there's exceptions to this, but you definitely 610 00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:54,880 Speaker 5: had all this time and the stuff that was sustained 611 00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:57,600 Speaker 5: and remembered were largely like sort of cultural projects. And 612 00:29:57,680 --> 00:29:59,320 Speaker 5: so like I think like now as we're moving into 613 00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:03,600 Speaker 5: this era here in North America on Turtle Island of 614 00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:08,160 Speaker 5: extreme repressive danger, right, like we shouldn't like joke about 615 00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:09,920 Speaker 5: it or downplay it. Like we're facing a lot of 616 00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:12,520 Speaker 5: extreme repression and fascists back in the streets in a 617 00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:16,800 Speaker 5: big way. It doesn't feel like big political organizing of 618 00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:18,880 Speaker 5: the kind that happened during the first Trump administration where 619 00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:20,840 Speaker 5: people did a lot of marching in circles, but there 620 00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:23,160 Speaker 5: were targets for the pressure, you know, like they don't 621 00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:26,440 Speaker 5: feel as relevant now. But now I'm really off, way off. 622 00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:28,880 Speaker 5: But no, I think so I think like I think 623 00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:32,640 Speaker 5: like we're in this moment where the fascists both are 624 00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:36,840 Speaker 5: quite empowered and very unfocused. They're they're confused. They don't 625 00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:39,440 Speaker 5: really have us in their sights, like they think Liz 626 00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:41,880 Speaker 5: Cheney is just as much a revolutionary as Assada Shakur 627 00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:44,920 Speaker 5: or whatever, right, And like that leaves us some space 628 00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:48,360 Speaker 5: to move and to build things that can maintain the 629 00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:51,240 Speaker 5: spirit of resistance, that can reproduce a culture of resistance 630 00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:55,160 Speaker 5: that can also organize. And another thing that has really 631 00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:57,480 Speaker 5: been important for me recently with KA is that I've 632 00:30:57,520 --> 00:30:59,480 Speaker 5: been doing an organizing project that I won't talk about 633 00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:02,720 Speaker 5: the details of, but that the skills have largely come 634 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:05,520 Speaker 5: from punk music that I did in the twenties twenty 635 00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:07,520 Speaker 5: is being in a touring punk band, and those skills 636 00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:11,160 Speaker 5: have made this organizing really easy. And that's been a 637 00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:13,240 Speaker 5: huge thing for me because I'm working with other people 638 00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:15,400 Speaker 5: who are younger who don't have that experiential like, oh, 639 00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:16,840 Speaker 5: how do you do this? I'm like, oh no, no, it's 640 00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:18,960 Speaker 5: so easy. You just like do this. You know, here's 641 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:21,479 Speaker 5: these skills I learned just from doing music, And like, 642 00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:25,320 Speaker 5: I don't think that's just like accidental, as Shirley was saying, 643 00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:27,600 Speaker 5: like the DIY nature of some of that work, the 644 00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:30,600 Speaker 5: culture work. You know, maybe the band wasn't revolutionary. The 645 00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:32,960 Speaker 5: bands I was in certainly weren't like the revolution or whatever, 646 00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:35,440 Speaker 5: but they gave me all of these powerful skills and 647 00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:38,720 Speaker 5: ideas and concepts for doing really important work. And I 648 00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:41,840 Speaker 5: think that that's also a reason to pursue DIY culture 649 00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:45,000 Speaker 5: in a way that's genuinely sustainable and world building. 650 00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:47,600 Speaker 4: I think like, if I can build off this too, 651 00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:51,160 Speaker 4: and I'm going to try to do some tying together 652 00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:53,520 Speaker 4: of things. But like one of the ways that I 653 00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:56,880 Speaker 4: think about my contribution is to think about like let's 654 00:31:56,960 --> 00:31:57,520 Speaker 4: not like. 655 00:31:57,480 --> 00:31:59,480 Speaker 6: Don't look there, let's look over here. 656 00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:02,840 Speaker 4: And that can mean of multiple things, which is often 657 00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:06,800 Speaker 4: when people think politically, they're looking at these big moments 658 00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:10,720 Speaker 4: or big actions or like top down solutions, which means 659 00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:13,760 Speaker 4: that we take our attention away from these other places 660 00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:16,640 Speaker 4: where we're doing all this stuff, like carlois saying, like 661 00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:19,320 Speaker 4: we're already doing a lot of important kind of like 662 00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:22,840 Speaker 4: life making work. And then also there's movements in our 663 00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:25,600 Speaker 4: movements where we have to be like you all look 664 00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:28,320 Speaker 4: over here while we do stuff over right, Like you 665 00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:30,240 Speaker 4: don't want to be seen all the time, So we 666 00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:32,040 Speaker 4: have to be able to direct our attention to the 667 00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:34,400 Speaker 4: things that we do and then also keep some of 668 00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:37,200 Speaker 4: that stuff under wraps. And that means it's hard sometimes 669 00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:40,600 Speaker 4: to see and because it's so decentralized, and anarchism really 670 00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:44,720 Speaker 4: functions through decentralization, like we're not always aware of how 671 00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:48,600 Speaker 4: much power we actually have and what's going on at 672 00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:52,080 Speaker 4: any one moment. And going back to the kind of moments, 673 00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:54,800 Speaker 4: even tracing back to the Battle of Seattle, and I 674 00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:57,520 Speaker 4: think it's like ever more present today in all of 675 00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:00,160 Speaker 4: the kinds of organizing for street actions that are being 676 00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:03,040 Speaker 4: done that a lot of the groundwork for any of 677 00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:05,800 Speaker 4: these moments is done by anarchists, and then it's not 678 00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:09,400 Speaker 4: either claimed by anarchists or it's stolen from anarchists. Like 679 00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:15,880 Speaker 4: we make everything sort of run, and anarchism makes everything run, 680 00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:19,000 Speaker 4: and then it just gets ignored because it's not about 681 00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:22,160 Speaker 4: taking credit, it's not about kind of imposing itself. And 682 00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:25,400 Speaker 4: so I think like that kind of in between of 683 00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:28,880 Speaker 4: saying what we're doing and sharing that knowledge and then 684 00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:31,880 Speaker 4: keeping under wrap so that we can keep chugging along, 685 00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:34,280 Speaker 4: and then just also being aware of when our work 686 00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:36,920 Speaker 4: is being stolen and then repurposed for something that goes 687 00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:38,040 Speaker 4: against what we want. 688 00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:38,840 Speaker 6: I think these are. 689 00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:41,400 Speaker 4: All ways for us to prepare for those moments of 690 00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:46,440 Speaker 4: like explosion or eruption where anarchy really manifests and then 691 00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:48,640 Speaker 4: we can kind of taste freedom for a moment. 692 00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:53,240 Speaker 1: Yeah. I think the way I've always thought about it 693 00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:56,040 Speaker 1: was just kind of like, is this like flame tending 694 00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:59,920 Speaker 1: process where in these sort of low cycles, your job 695 00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:03,840 Speaker 1: is to keep the flame alive, and eventually you know 696 00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:05,760 Speaker 1: that you're going to see it, like you know, you're 697 00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:07,520 Speaker 1: you're you're going to see the explosion again, right, You're 698 00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:10,279 Speaker 1: going to see the flame for uh, But like that 699 00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:13,120 Speaker 1: that doesn't happen unless the flame is still there and 700 00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:15,319 Speaker 1: unless people have been tending it and people have been 701 00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:18,359 Speaker 1: trying to make it grow. And you can't necessarily just 702 00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:20,719 Speaker 1: like add fuel to it and be like, ah, it's 703 00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:23,000 Speaker 1: gonna it's gonna grow now, right it. You know, you 704 00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:25,480 Speaker 1: don't you don't really have control of how it sort 705 00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:28,440 Speaker 1: of moves and grows it expands, but you have control 706 00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:31,320 Speaker 1: over your ability to like make sure that it keeps going. 707 00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:34,560 Speaker 3: Absolutely all about Bambers. 708 00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:38,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think also, like I thinking about the 709 00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:39,840 Speaker 1: punk metaphor a lot. Like one of the ways that 710 00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:41,680 Speaker 1: I've been thinking a lot about like what we're doing 711 00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:43,400 Speaker 1: here and it could happen here is we kind of 712 00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:46,800 Speaker 1: took the like we took the ridge against the machine gambit, 713 00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:49,880 Speaker 1: which is to say we were like we're like, Okay, 714 00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:52,320 Speaker 1: we're going to go to try to go somewhat mainstream 715 00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:54,399 Speaker 1: in order to I mean bridge but obviously like went 716 00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:55,800 Speaker 1: way bigger than we did, but like we're gonna go 717 00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:58,000 Speaker 1: try to We're going to go like somewhat mainstream so 718 00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:01,080 Speaker 1: we can like spread this thing to a larger group 719 00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:04,239 Speaker 1: of people. That's also very very dangerous in the sense that, 720 00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:07,000 Speaker 1: like it's very easy to sort of just lose yourself 721 00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:09,480 Speaker 1: in the kind of mire of like the field you've 722 00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:12,080 Speaker 1: walked into. But on the other hand, the upside about 723 00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:15,640 Speaker 1: it is that we're not the only people doing this, right, 724 00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:17,840 Speaker 1: and there's all of you out there who are doing this, 725 00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:20,719 Speaker 1: Like everyone on this call is doing this, like is 726 00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:24,239 Speaker 1: doing the like like the DIY work that is going 727 00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:27,800 Speaker 1: to be the core of what this whole thing becomes. 728 00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:30,200 Speaker 1: And the more the more of these media products we 729 00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:31,920 Speaker 1: get and the more that people are able to sustain 730 00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:34,560 Speaker 1: themselves doing this, the more that we're sort of able 731 00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:37,200 Speaker 1: to break like I don't know, just like the modelmaniacal 732 00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:40,880 Speaker 1: substack control of like taking your money and giving it 733 00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:44,640 Speaker 1: the transphobes kind of thing. The better shape we're going 734 00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:46,920 Speaker 1: to be in in the years to come exactly. 735 00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:50,040 Speaker 5: And speaking of which, one thing anarchists are famously bad 736 00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:53,200 Speaker 5: at doing is accepting that we do wire money and 737 00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:54,719 Speaker 5: asking for it. So I'm going to do that for 738 00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:58,040 Speaker 5: the squad. Yeah, we are currently fundraising because it's actually 739 00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:01,719 Speaker 5: really hard to make something sustainable for people. Yeah, so 740 00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:03,960 Speaker 5: we have a fundraiser going on. If you like what 741 00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:06,960 Speaker 5: we're talking about here, you can donate to our Indiegogo 742 00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:10,480 Speaker 5: literally anything helps. Once we fully launch in February, we're 743 00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:12,400 Speaker 5: going to have a pay what you want subscription model, 744 00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:15,160 Speaker 5: so everything will be subscribed. But we really want to 745 00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:18,080 Speaker 5: have three months worth of living wage for all of 746 00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:19,640 Speaker 5: us to do two days a week on it, right, 747 00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:22,280 Speaker 5: so we're not even you know, we're not talking full salaries, 748 00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:24,719 Speaker 5: and that's forty five thousand dollars because four people for 749 00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:26,920 Speaker 5: three months, it's not even a tremendous amount of money 750 00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:29,480 Speaker 5: because we're including solidarity funds in that and like paying 751 00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:32,239 Speaker 5: any writers who contribute, like lots of other stuff. So yeah, 752 00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:34,439 Speaker 5: if you have a few bucks and you know, maybe 753 00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:36,320 Speaker 5: you're thinking about, you know, getting off of one of 754 00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:38,400 Speaker 5: those substacks or something, and you want to throw our away, 755 00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:41,200 Speaker 5: we would be absolutely honored. I'm very excited to accept 756 00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:44,479 Speaker 5: anything in this launch. And if you don't have that money, 757 00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:46,160 Speaker 5: which is I know true for a lot of us, 758 00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:48,080 Speaker 5: which is why we feel bad asking for the money 759 00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:50,359 Speaker 5: because there are so many people who need it right now, 760 00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:53,480 Speaker 5: you can subscribe online. You can find us on social 761 00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:55,920 Speaker 5: media and keep in touch until we do launch, and 762 00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:58,200 Speaker 5: then you can join and subscribe that way. That's also 763 00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:00,719 Speaker 5: a really great way to support us. But if you 764 00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:02,360 Speaker 5: have a few bucks you want to throw, if you 765 00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:04,600 Speaker 5: want to give someone a present of a year's membership, 766 00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:06,960 Speaker 5: you can get that for one hundred dollars for the holidays, 767 00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:10,759 Speaker 5: you know, radicalize your uncle, you know, just with our work, 768 00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:12,200 Speaker 5: we'd really really appreciate it. 769 00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:14,320 Speaker 3: And yeah, thanks Vicky. 770 00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:17,839 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I don't know, I'm excited for this. There's 771 00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:20,200 Speaker 1: already been a bunch of great stuff that's up on 772 00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:23,200 Speaker 1: the site. We will have links to everything in the description. Yeah, 773 00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:25,280 Speaker 1: thank you, Thank you three for coming on the show. 774 00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:26,960 Speaker 1: And I'm really excited about this. 775 00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:28,480 Speaker 3: Well, thanks for having us. 776 00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:30,640 Speaker 4: Yeah, thanks for the chance to share it. And like 777 00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:33,040 Speaker 4: I always say, like if anyone is interested and wants 778 00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:34,759 Speaker 4: to get in touch, I'm happy to hear from you. 779 00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:37,839 Speaker 2: And yeah, yeah, same and reach out to us too. 780 00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:40,600 Speaker 2: A few ideas on what cost stands for. We love 781 00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:44,359 Speaker 2: hearing from people. My favorite is kin the anarchist right, 782 00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:47,440 Speaker 2: that's what it stands for. I don't know who came 783 00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:47,759 Speaker 2: up with that. 784 00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:49,320 Speaker 3: I think that might have been scherlier Vicky. 785 00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:54,759 Speaker 2: But it's a good one TVD TBD, So yeah, send 786 00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:56,920 Speaker 2: in what you think. And we also are going to 787 00:37:56,960 --> 00:37:59,919 Speaker 2: have an advice column that's going to be lunched soon. Yeah, 788 00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:03,200 Speaker 2: so send us questions or individually or whatever, but you know, 789 00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:05,520 Speaker 2: disrupt individualism, reach out to us. 790 00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:09,480 Speaker 5: Yeah, thanks so much. And yeah, as a long time listener, 791 00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:11,640 Speaker 5: first time caller, it's really exciting to be on here. 792 00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:13,080 Speaker 5: So thank you Mia so much. 793 00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:14,880 Speaker 1: That's not true old time. 794 00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:19,520 Speaker 5: Second a right, sorry I was on. I just go 795 00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:22,319 Speaker 5: on so many podcasts like. 796 00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:24,160 Speaker 6: Sorry. 797 00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:27,440 Speaker 5: Yeah, well, anyway, it's really exciting to be here and 798 00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:29,680 Speaker 5: talking to everyone, and we hope to meet y'all in 799 00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:31,640 Speaker 5: the future and we'll have a well, we will have 800 00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:34,480 Speaker 5: a discord community, we'll be having like writing class, We're 801 00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:36,200 Speaker 5: gonna have a lot of like really exciting stuff. So 802 00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:38,680 Speaker 5: even if you can't throw in money right now, please 803 00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:41,640 Speaker 5: sign up to our website, cosh anythings dot com stay 804 00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:44,200 Speaker 5: in touch and find out all the really cool stuff 805 00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:44,560 Speaker 5: we're doing. 806 00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:47,560 Speaker 4: And just to reiterate, like all the stuff that we're 807 00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:50,279 Speaker 4: already doing is now going to have a home and call. 808 00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:56,560 Speaker 4: So like my essays and podcasts, Vicki's review reviews and essays, 809 00:38:57,000 --> 00:39:01,160 Speaker 4: and Carla's many projects which include pot podcasts and writing 810 00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:04,759 Speaker 4: and these interviews, Danny's writing and classes. 811 00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:07,160 Speaker 6: Yeah, this is all moving there. 812 00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:10,040 Speaker 3: Plus new things doing it together. 813 00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:14,759 Speaker 1: Yeah in that spirit YouTube, dear listener, can can do 814 00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:17,680 Speaker 1: things together and go to rup this world. So go 815 00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:20,960 Speaker 1: do that now instead of listening to whatever else it's 816 00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:24,480 Speaker 1: happening on the show. This ending exactly only well, but 817 00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:25,920 Speaker 1: go go go tosruugh things. 818 00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:28,000 Speaker 3: I get it, Thanks so much. 819 00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:33,640 Speaker 1: It could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. 820 00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:36,880 Speaker 2: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 821 00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:40,560 Speaker 2: Foolzonemedia dot com or check us out from the iHeartRadio app, 822 00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:44,200 Speaker 2: Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts, you can 823 00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:46,560 Speaker 2: now find sources for It could Happen Here listened directly 824 00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:47,759 Speaker 2: in episode descriptions. 825 00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:48,880 Speaker 3: Thanks for listening.