1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:04,240 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Mollie John Fast and this is Fast Politics. Well, 2 00:00:04,280 --> 00:00:07,280 Speaker 1: we discussed the top political headlines with some of today's 3 00:00:07,320 --> 00:00:09,280 Speaker 1: best minds. 4 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:12,200 Speaker 2: And Congressman Mike Collins is trying to blame the assassination 5 00:00:12,280 --> 00:00:15,600 Speaker 2: attempt on Donald Trump on President Biden with no evidence 6 00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:17,560 Speaker 2: at all. We have such a great show for you today, 7 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:20,119 Speaker 2: Slate Stalia Lithmics stops by to talk to us about 8 00:00:20,120 --> 00:00:23,400 Speaker 2: the further implications of the Supreme Court's recent rulings. De 9 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:26,640 Speaker 2: will talk to author Dave Agers, director Arthur Bradford, and 10 00:00:26,720 --> 00:00:30,240 Speaker 2: public school teacher Jill Westbrook about their new documentary To 11 00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:33,160 Speaker 2: Be Destroyed, which covers the book banning in Rapid City, 12 00:00:33,240 --> 00:00:35,920 Speaker 2: South Dakota. But first we're going to actually hear a 13 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:39,120 Speaker 2: word from Mollie since we felt our previously taped discussion 14 00:00:39,159 --> 00:00:40,680 Speaker 2: was not appropriate for today's show. 15 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:42,960 Speaker 3: Hi, this is Molly John Fast. 16 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:47,559 Speaker 1: This is a special kind of introduction today just because 17 00:00:47,640 --> 00:00:49,879 Speaker 1: I want to talk about a couple of things. This 18 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:55,080 Speaker 1: weekend was you know, there was an incredibly tragic incident 19 00:00:55,360 --> 00:01:00,160 Speaker 1: of political violence. Donald Trump was shot. He's okay, hey, 20 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:02,960 Speaker 1: thank god, but it is really scary and we all 21 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:07,240 Speaker 1: have to remember just how we're so lucky to live 22 00:01:07,319 --> 00:01:11,040 Speaker 1: now in twenty twenty four, and if you look back 23 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:13,720 Speaker 1: in the sixties, there was a ton of this kind 24 00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:16,800 Speaker 1: of political violence, and I hope, I think that if 25 00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:20,200 Speaker 1: we're all really if we all really focus on it, 26 00:01:20,240 --> 00:01:23,759 Speaker 1: that we can take the temperature down. And that really 27 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:26,280 Speaker 1: should be our goal no matter what, because violence is 28 00:01:26,319 --> 00:01:29,160 Speaker 1: never okay, and you know, we don't want anyone to 29 00:01:29,160 --> 00:01:31,920 Speaker 1: get hurt here. We all have strong feelings about how 30 00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:35,600 Speaker 1: we want America to look like, but the guiding principle 31 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:37,720 Speaker 1: has to be to be kind to each other and 32 00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:40,440 Speaker 1: not hurt anyone. The other thing I wanted to mention 33 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:43,520 Speaker 1: because this is such a hot time and a lot 34 00:01:43,560 --> 00:01:46,280 Speaker 1: of people have come over to me and felt really despairing, 35 00:01:46,720 --> 00:01:49,760 Speaker 1: and they felt like, now, you know, this has been 36 00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:53,800 Speaker 1: a really bad news cycle for Democrats. There's no sugarcoating that. 37 00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:56,160 Speaker 1: But I just want to point out a few things. 38 00:01:56,200 --> 00:01:59,200 Speaker 1: First of all, we're still four months away from the election, 39 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:01,800 Speaker 1: so that's a one hundred and fourteen days, so that's 40 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:04,120 Speaker 1: a long time, and as we've seen from the last 41 00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:06,720 Speaker 1: three weeks, a lot can happen in one hundred and 42 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:10,280 Speaker 1: fourteen days. I also think that as much as we 43 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:13,560 Speaker 1: feel for what happened to Donald Trump, and it is 44 00:02:13,760 --> 00:02:17,839 Speaker 1: absolutely awful, does not necessarily mean that he will then 45 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:21,080 Speaker 1: win the election. Remember, we are in a super polarized 46 00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:25,240 Speaker 1: moment in American life. What he is selling is not 47 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:27,720 Speaker 1: the kind of America that a lot of us want 48 00:02:27,760 --> 00:02:29,680 Speaker 1: to live in. And I also want to add that, 49 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:34,440 Speaker 1: in fact, there's historical precedent for this. So Teddy Roosevelt lost, 50 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:37,040 Speaker 1: there was an attempt on his life. Ronald Reagans on 51 00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:40,280 Speaker 1: eight point boost in popularity that was entirely gone in 52 00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:43,640 Speaker 1: three months, and that was in a much less polarized time. 53 00:02:43,840 --> 00:02:46,720 Speaker 1: So again, and I think this is a really important point, 54 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:49,639 Speaker 1: and we've talked about it before. We were talking about 55 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:52,280 Speaker 1: whether or not Joe Biden should drop out and who 56 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:55,359 Speaker 1: was the Democrat's best chance at being Donald Trump. Because 57 00:02:55,400 --> 00:02:58,240 Speaker 1: Donald Trump, even though we feel for him and we 58 00:02:58,320 --> 00:03:01,320 Speaker 1: want him to be safe and we understand that political 59 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:03,840 Speaker 1: violence is not okay, we also can say at the 60 00:03:03,880 --> 00:03:06,760 Speaker 1: same time that he continues to be an existential threat 61 00:03:06,760 --> 00:03:10,239 Speaker 1: to democracy, and that the only way that it's important 62 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:14,200 Speaker 1: that he loses fairly at the ballot box and no 63 00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:17,040 Speaker 1: other way, But he continues to be an existential threat 64 00:03:17,040 --> 00:03:19,240 Speaker 1: to democracy. But the point of what I'm saying is 65 00:03:19,240 --> 00:03:22,320 Speaker 1: that all of the people who are telling you that 66 00:03:22,400 --> 00:03:26,280 Speaker 1: this we know how this thing that happens in July 67 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 1: is going to play in November are wrong. No one knows. 68 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:33,000 Speaker 1: We can see polls, but they are merely trend lines. 69 00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:36,880 Speaker 1: We do not know. So when people tell you that 70 00:03:36,920 --> 00:03:40,200 Speaker 1: they're sure you should run, screaming in the other direction. 71 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:42,360 Speaker 1: None of us know what November is going to look like. 72 00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:45,560 Speaker 1: All we know is that if you're worried about democracy, 73 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:49,400 Speaker 1: there are solid things you can do. You can write postcards, 74 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:53,600 Speaker 1: You can support your local everyone from the dog catcher 75 00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:56,440 Speaker 1: to the school board. There are local elections that you 76 00:03:56,520 --> 00:03:59,400 Speaker 1: can support. You can be a poll worker and make 77 00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:03,560 Speaker 1: sure that are counted fairlight. There are so many opportunities 78 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:07,840 Speaker 1: for you to protect democracy, and so no one should despair. 79 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:11,760 Speaker 1: There are many months left and no one really knows 80 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:21,160 Speaker 1: what's going to happen. Spring is here, and I bet 81 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:24,160 Speaker 1: you are trying to look fashionable, So why not pick 82 00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:29,359 Speaker 1: up some fashionable, all new fast politics merchandise. We just 83 00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:33,000 Speaker 1: opened a news store with all new designs just for you. 84 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:37,200 Speaker 1: Get t shirts, hoodies, hats, and top bags to grab 85 00:04:37,279 --> 00:04:40,200 Speaker 1: some head to Fastpolitics dot com. 86 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:43,239 Speaker 2: Dalia Withwick is a senior editor at Slate and author 87 00:04:43,279 --> 00:04:46,080 Speaker 2: of Lady Justice, Women, The Law, and the Battle to 88 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:47,080 Speaker 2: Save America. 89 00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:53,640 Speaker 1: Welcome back to I want you to explain Chevron because 90 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:57,120 Speaker 1: it's enormous and it seems like it hasn't made a blip. 91 00:04:57,279 --> 00:05:00,280 Speaker 4: First of all, Hi, Molly, it's really good to see 92 00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:04,200 Speaker 4: your face. I think two things, and then we can 93 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:05,240 Speaker 4: talk about the nuts and bolts. 94 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:05,760 Speaker 3: So Chevron. 95 00:05:05,839 --> 00:05:08,800 Speaker 4: One is that I'm starting to realize that when the 96 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:14,479 Speaker 4: court like drops the ten or fifteen biggest cases not 97 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:17,720 Speaker 4: just of the term, but like of our lifetimes, in 98 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:21,040 Speaker 4: the last ten days of the term, that's a really 99 00:05:21,279 --> 00:05:26,000 Speaker 4: deliberate act of obfuscation, right, Like that is a very 100 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:30,120 Speaker 4: purposeful way of saying, there is no possibility you can 101 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:30,840 Speaker 4: keep up with this. 102 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:33,680 Speaker 3: So Chevron's going to get a day. And that happened. 103 00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:37,800 Speaker 4: And speaking of Canada, I just happened to interview from 104 00:05:37,880 --> 00:05:41,720 Speaker 4: my podcast former justice from the Supreme Court of Canada, 105 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:44,240 Speaker 4: and I was like, do you all like drop all 106 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:46,880 Speaker 4: the biggest cases of the term, like in the last 107 00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:50,080 Speaker 4: five days, like with no warning of what's coming. And 108 00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:53,440 Speaker 4: she's like, no, no, that would be insane, so like 109 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:56,440 Speaker 4: no other court does this, but it does have the 110 00:05:56,520 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 4: effect of making it impossible to fully parse what happened. 111 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:03,520 Speaker 4: And I think Loper Bray and Relentless, which are the 112 00:06:03,560 --> 00:06:07,680 Speaker 4: two Chevron cases, might be the most important cases that 113 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:12,640 Speaker 4: nobody understands. And I think they got obscured by the 114 00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:15,479 Speaker 4: abortion case. I think they got obscured by Fisher, the 115 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:18,560 Speaker 4: January sixth cases and then the immunity case. But this 116 00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:24,320 Speaker 4: like fundamentally reorders how government happens. I guess the very 117 00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:27,960 Speaker 4: shortest version I can give you is like, since FDR, 118 00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:32,320 Speaker 4: government happens by way of agencies. It's not like the 119 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:38,800 Speaker 4: president single handedly setting out environmental policy or drug regulations. 120 00:06:39,080 --> 00:06:42,280 Speaker 4: You have agencies, all those ABC agencies, you know, the 121 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:47,760 Speaker 4: EPA and the FDA and the SEC. Hundreds and hundreds 122 00:06:47,839 --> 00:06:51,160 Speaker 4: of very smart people at the heads of agencies, and 123 00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:55,480 Speaker 4: like millions of lawyers and scientists who decide things, and 124 00:06:55,720 --> 00:07:00,559 Speaker 4: Congress if it's doing its job, rights regulations and those 125 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:04,760 Speaker 4: agencies apply them. And this is not a controversial proposition 126 00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:08,000 Speaker 4: until it is. But the basic idea is, if you 127 00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:12,280 Speaker 4: write a statute and it's trying really hard to be clear, 128 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:17,000 Speaker 4: but it cannot possibly be specific enough to anticipate every 129 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:20,800 Speaker 4: single percentage point of particulate matter that you are trying 130 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:23,720 Speaker 4: to regulate, like with the Clean Air Act since nineteen 131 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:27,280 Speaker 4: eighty four. In the Chevron case, the rule was, if 132 00:07:27,280 --> 00:07:31,440 Speaker 4: there's an agency regulation that is ambiguous, the courts defer 133 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:35,640 Speaker 4: to the agency's own interpretation of that regulation. So it's 134 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:38,080 Speaker 4: the tie goes to the runner who knows what he's 135 00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:39,160 Speaker 4: freaking talking about. 136 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:42,960 Speaker 3: That's Chevron. This is really the death of expertise, right. 137 00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:46,920 Speaker 4: It's the death of expertise, it's the death of science, 138 00:07:47,520 --> 00:07:50,560 Speaker 4: it's the death of in a deep way, and I 139 00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:53,000 Speaker 4: mean this is a structural point, but it's important, the 140 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:57,720 Speaker 4: death of conferring decision making power on elected branches, right, 141 00:07:57,800 --> 00:08:00,960 Speaker 4: because not only does this kick out the legs from 142 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:04,080 Speaker 4: agencies to do their own regulating, it kicks the legs 143 00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:04,960 Speaker 4: out from Congress. 144 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:05,320 Speaker 3: Right. 145 00:08:05,640 --> 00:08:08,520 Speaker 4: So this is if you don't like what the EPA 146 00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:11,080 Speaker 4: is doing, you can vote and in a couple of 147 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:14,160 Speaker 4: years you get a new head of the EPA. If 148 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:18,640 Speaker 4: you don't like how a judge regulates the environment, when 149 00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:21,160 Speaker 4: a judge does what Neil Gorsitch did in the Big 150 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:24,760 Speaker 4: EPA case this year, where he under the guise of 151 00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:28,200 Speaker 4: like scuppering the good neighbor rule. First of all, confused 152 00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:32,760 Speaker 4: nitrogen oxide the pollutant with nitrous oxide, laughing gas, Like 153 00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:35,520 Speaker 4: my favorite part, it's the best part, but it's also 154 00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:39,320 Speaker 4: goes to you know what, lifetime appointed judges and justices 155 00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:43,640 Speaker 4: are not experts on climate, they're not experts on CDC 156 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:47,360 Speaker 4: health legs, they're not experts as Matthew Kesmerick taught us. 157 00:08:47,640 --> 00:08:48,920 Speaker 3: On a mifipristone. 158 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:51,319 Speaker 4: And yet when they give themselves the power to do that, 159 00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:53,959 Speaker 4: there's no way to remove that judge. So this is 160 00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:55,760 Speaker 4: an actual threat to democracy. 161 00:08:56,360 --> 00:08:57,200 Speaker 3: It is a. 162 00:08:57,040 --> 00:09:03,480 Speaker 1: Power grab because of right has more judges than electeds 163 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:06,200 Speaker 1: right now, they know what they want to do is 164 00:09:06,280 --> 00:09:09,360 Speaker 1: not what the majority wants, right right. 165 00:09:09,480 --> 00:09:12,320 Speaker 4: I mean, this is part of those conversations you and 166 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:14,680 Speaker 4: I've been having, like for a couple of years, about 167 00:09:14,679 --> 00:09:16,760 Speaker 4: how do you impose minority rule. 168 00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:18,800 Speaker 3: And you can either do it. 169 00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:22,720 Speaker 4: By way of having popular ideas that people vote for, 170 00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:27,520 Speaker 4: like we would like to have gun regulations, right, and 171 00:09:27,559 --> 00:09:30,960 Speaker 4: then when you can't win because the vast majorities of 172 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:35,559 Speaker 4: Americans want saying gun regulations, they want clean air. The 173 00:09:35,679 --> 00:09:39,080 Speaker 4: vast majority of Americans actually think people should vote. The 174 00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:43,520 Speaker 4: vast majority of Americans want abortion care. When you can't win, what. 175 00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:44,959 Speaker 3: You do is you go through the courts. 176 00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:49,000 Speaker 4: And what we have learned from the Heritage Foundation and 177 00:09:49,080 --> 00:09:52,640 Speaker 4: Leonard Leo and the conservative legal movement is it's really 178 00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:55,959 Speaker 4: not that hard. It's pretty expensive, but you know it's 179 00:09:56,080 --> 00:10:00,480 Speaker 4: it's sofa cushion change for the Cookes and for Harlan 180 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:03,640 Speaker 4: Crowe to buy courts, and so they have purchased courts, 181 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:07,600 Speaker 4: and as you said, every piece of this is part 182 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:10,160 Speaker 4: of a structural effort to say we are going to 183 00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:12,640 Speaker 4: have minority rule. And not only are we going to 184 00:10:12,640 --> 00:10:15,600 Speaker 4: have minority rule, but it almost doesn't matter Molly, if 185 00:10:15,640 --> 00:10:18,480 Speaker 4: Biden wins or Trump wins, because if all of the 186 00:10:18,559 --> 00:10:24,280 Speaker 4: agencies can be controlled by not just Trump judges, but 187 00:10:24,440 --> 00:10:27,080 Speaker 4: now they're in, they are at the mercy of the 188 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:28,640 Speaker 4: people who hate regulations. 189 00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:28,880 Speaker 3: Right. 190 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:31,400 Speaker 4: I mean, the way Loper Bright and the end of 191 00:10:31,520 --> 00:10:36,120 Speaker 4: Chevron plays out is that the polluters and the people 192 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:40,480 Speaker 4: who want to get rid of regulations, they're going to 193 00:10:40,559 --> 00:10:43,880 Speaker 4: win because their lawyers are going to effectively be writing 194 00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:47,160 Speaker 4: the regulations. Now that's what's scary about this. 195 00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:51,120 Speaker 1: Can you give us a little backstory on the Supreme 196 00:10:51,160 --> 00:10:54,840 Speaker 1: Court EPA decision is one of the that sets the 197 00:10:54,880 --> 00:11:01,160 Speaker 1: groundwork for this new powerless federal government is really an 198 00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:03,520 Speaker 1: arm of whatever the president wants. 199 00:11:03,920 --> 00:11:07,240 Speaker 4: I mean, I think it's one of a huge chunk 200 00:11:07,360 --> 00:11:10,520 Speaker 4: of cases that all slid under the radar Molly. So 201 00:11:10,600 --> 00:11:13,880 Speaker 4: this specifically is a case about something called the good 202 00:11:13,920 --> 00:11:17,680 Speaker 4: neighbor rule that basically has to do with regulating air 203 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:21,320 Speaker 4: pollution that comes like from you know, downwind states and 204 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:24,440 Speaker 4: the states bocking at that and on the merits like 205 00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:26,360 Speaker 4: you can have a conversation. 206 00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:27,400 Speaker 3: About that rule. 207 00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:31,360 Speaker 4: But what Justice Gorsich does is he not only says 208 00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:34,640 Speaker 4: like I'm going to tell the EPA how to regulate climate, 209 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:37,480 Speaker 4: but then he goes on to sort of like give 210 00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:42,920 Speaker 4: himself the authority to explain how we do air pollution. 211 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:45,400 Speaker 4: And I want to just link it up to because 212 00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:48,520 Speaker 4: we had right there was a bump stock case where 213 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:54,320 Speaker 4: Trump's own ATF, right after the mass shooting in Las Vegas, 214 00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:58,800 Speaker 4: his own ATF takes the position, we're going to regulate bumpstocks, 215 00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:02,199 Speaker 4: which convert guns into machine guns. We're going to regulate 216 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:05,720 Speaker 4: them like their machine guns. Clarence Thomas comes along same 217 00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:10,040 Speaker 4: move right, I am an expert on how machine guns work. 218 00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:13,040 Speaker 4: I'm fixing some photographs. 219 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:13,000 Speaker 3: To my opinion. 220 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:16,240 Speaker 4: I'll tell you that these are not in fact machine guns, 221 00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:20,760 Speaker 4: because the gun industry has sent me these like slides. 222 00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:21,120 Speaker 3: Right. 223 00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:24,559 Speaker 4: And we have the SEC case where the court decides 224 00:12:24,640 --> 00:12:29,240 Speaker 4: that the way the SEC does adjudication procedures, every SEC 225 00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:32,360 Speaker 4: adjudication needs to go to a jury. So this is 226 00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:35,080 Speaker 4: a whole and this is Methipristo like really, at bottom, 227 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:38,320 Speaker 4: this is Judge Cosmerick saying I don't care what the 228 00:12:38,440 --> 00:12:41,199 Speaker 4: FDA thinks about how we regulate drugs. 229 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:42,040 Speaker 3: I know better. 230 00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:45,080 Speaker 4: And so it's almost I would say, like, this whole 231 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:49,200 Speaker 4: bunch of cases that seem so obscure are in fact 232 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:53,960 Speaker 4: the materialization of what Chevron does, which is take regulations 233 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:57,000 Speaker 4: out of the hands of regulators, as you said, scientists, 234 00:12:57,440 --> 00:13:01,439 Speaker 4: experts the ability to which is why we want federal 235 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:04,959 Speaker 4: agencies move nimbly and quickly and not wait for Congress 236 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:05,920 Speaker 4: to you know. 237 00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:07,600 Speaker 3: Pass a specific law. 238 00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:10,840 Speaker 4: All that is gone, and it's at the mercy of 239 00:13:10,880 --> 00:13:13,880 Speaker 4: federal judges who are like, I know better than you 240 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:15,400 Speaker 4: how clean water works. 241 00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:16,800 Speaker 3: I'm sam Alito. 242 00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:20,680 Speaker 4: And by the way, I confuse laughing gas with nitrogen 243 00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:24,199 Speaker 4: oxide because I'm Neil Gorsich, like this is really dangerous, 244 00:13:24,640 --> 00:13:26,240 Speaker 4: and I guess the last thing I want to say 245 00:13:26,280 --> 00:13:28,160 Speaker 4: about it is, not only is it going to be 246 00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:32,320 Speaker 4: impossible for agencies to work, like agency can't function if 247 00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:36,040 Speaker 4: they don't know what the parameters because everything has to 248 00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:38,920 Speaker 4: go to a judge. But this really makes us all 249 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:42,040 Speaker 4: at the mercy of the one most Bonker's judge who 250 00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:44,760 Speaker 4: wants to wigh in, and that really is Matthew Kesmerick 251 00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:47,680 Speaker 4: and people in Texas who are just like, I'm just 252 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:51,240 Speaker 4: going to like start to do nationwide injunctions on every 253 00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:53,520 Speaker 4: agency that I don't like how they run things. It 254 00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:58,480 Speaker 4: so dismantles the way government works, and it preys on 255 00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:03,640 Speaker 4: public suspicion of like nameless faceless bureaucrats that are regulating everything. 256 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:07,680 Speaker 4: Those nameless faceless bureaucrats are often like lawyers and doctors 257 00:14:07,679 --> 00:14:10,080 Speaker 4: and scientists who are really trying to make sure that 258 00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:12,880 Speaker 4: the food we eat is not going to make us dead. 259 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:15,280 Speaker 1: I mean a lot of the regulations we have are 260 00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:19,840 Speaker 1: actually not that severe, and in fact, probably should be 261 00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:23,040 Speaker 1: more severe. And a good example of that is Boeing 262 00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:26,680 Speaker 1: or that train disaster in Ohio or the lead in 263 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:29,840 Speaker 1: the baby food. We actually don't do a great job 264 00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:32,680 Speaker 1: of regulating things, but this will mean even less. 265 00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:34,480 Speaker 3: Right, That's exactly right. 266 00:14:34,560 --> 00:14:37,320 Speaker 4: And I think again, this is one of those sort 267 00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:40,600 Speaker 4: of follow the money issues where it's like who has 268 00:14:40,640 --> 00:14:45,400 Speaker 4: an interest in making sure that planes aren't safe, that 269 00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:49,160 Speaker 4: water isn't clean, that drugs get rushed onto the market 270 00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:54,040 Speaker 4: without being tested, Like whose interest is that in? And like, surprise, surprise, 271 00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:57,120 Speaker 4: it's some of the same people that have like secret 272 00:14:57,160 --> 00:15:00,640 Speaker 4: meetings in California at all men's clubs where they bring 273 00:15:00,880 --> 00:15:04,640 Speaker 4: Clarence Thomas out and let the high donors like pay 274 00:15:04,720 --> 00:15:06,560 Speaker 4: to spend time with Clarence Thomas. 275 00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:07,800 Speaker 3: Like this is not a. 276 00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:11,400 Speaker 4: Mystery, right if this was like Harriet the Spy, like 277 00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:15,000 Speaker 4: you kind of know who benefits from being able to, 278 00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:17,960 Speaker 4: you know, dump pollutants into the air in the water. 279 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:23,040 Speaker 4: And this has been a decades long plan and it's funny, 280 00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:24,440 Speaker 4: you know. The one other thing I would just say 281 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:27,560 Speaker 4: about Chevron, and I think this is important. The big 282 00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:30,640 Speaker 4: fans of Chevron in the nineteen eighties were like antonin 283 00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:33,560 Speaker 4: Scalia and believe it or not, Clarence Thomas because what 284 00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:38,080 Speaker 4: they wanted was to constrain judges from like jumping in 285 00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:41,280 Speaker 4: and telling regulatory entities how to do their job, because 286 00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:44,760 Speaker 4: it was like Reagan era regulations, right, Like these were 287 00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:48,240 Speaker 4: people who were trying to deregulate. Now it's flipped on 288 00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:51,960 Speaker 4: its head. Clarence Thomas famously says, like, I'm not evolving. 289 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:54,560 Speaker 4: There's no issue on which I've changed my position. This 290 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:56,880 Speaker 4: happens to be a thing he's changed his view on. 291 00:15:57,120 --> 00:15:59,840 Speaker 4: He was for Chevron deference until he was against it. 292 00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:03,720 Speaker 4: But this is so clearly was an effort in the 293 00:16:03,760 --> 00:16:08,240 Speaker 4: nineteen eighties by the conservative legal movement to constrain what 294 00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:11,840 Speaker 4: they thought was like free willing judges like making up policy. 295 00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:14,440 Speaker 4: And now they're like, free willing judges should totally make 296 00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:17,280 Speaker 4: up policy because they're us. And that's the kind of 297 00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:20,560 Speaker 4: totality of where this story begins and ends. 298 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:25,680 Speaker 1: Can you speak to what this means for Project twenty 299 00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:28,520 Speaker 1: twenty five, because it feels like it's setting the stage 300 00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:29,920 Speaker 1: for Project twenty twenty five. 301 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:32,120 Speaker 4: One of the reasons I love you this is like 302 00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:35,040 Speaker 4: not me blowing smoke is that, like almost everybody has 303 00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:38,320 Speaker 4: failed to connect this to Project twenty twenty five, And 304 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:42,840 Speaker 4: it's so obvious to me that so much of what 305 00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:45,680 Speaker 4: the Court did this term that was shocking to us 306 00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:51,040 Speaker 4: is being like put into pay you know, on paper, 307 00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:54,240 Speaker 4: and codified in twenty twenty five. Like this is the 308 00:16:54,320 --> 00:16:56,440 Speaker 4: plan and we are seeing it. I mean, it's nine 309 00:16:56,520 --> 00:16:59,520 Speaker 4: hundred pages. There's a lot to chew over, but huge 310 00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:04,040 Speaker 4: parts of it are already being previewed and kind of 311 00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:07,440 Speaker 4: built into law even before twenty twenty five is put 312 00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:09,800 Speaker 4: into action. And so one huge part of it, you're 313 00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:15,160 Speaker 4: exactly right, Molly, is the sort of dismantling the regulatory state. Right, 314 00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:17,919 Speaker 4: whatever was it Grover Norquist who is like, we're going 315 00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:20,400 Speaker 4: to shrink government down to the size that we can 316 00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:22,879 Speaker 4: you know, drown it in a bathtub. And this was 317 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:25,720 Speaker 4: the Steve Bannon wish list, right, this was the dream 318 00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:28,560 Speaker 4: that we're going to end the administrative state as we 319 00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:32,240 Speaker 4: know it. And that is all absolutely in the pages 320 00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:35,400 Speaker 4: of Project twenty twenty five and the other stuff that's 321 00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:38,120 Speaker 4: in the pages of Project twenty twenty five. The Court 322 00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:42,359 Speaker 4: has absolutely hand delivered. Whether it's you know, making it 323 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:45,800 Speaker 4: harder to vote, whether it's cracking down on immigrants, I mean, 324 00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:50,960 Speaker 4: the Court is embodying an enthusiasm for Project twenty twenty five. 325 00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:55,639 Speaker 4: That really belies the idea that we're kind of having 326 00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:58,320 Speaker 4: in the conversation now of like, is next year going 327 00:17:58,359 --> 00:18:01,440 Speaker 4: to be Project twenty twenty five or not. It's already happening. 328 00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:03,080 Speaker 4: It's just happening in the judiciary. 329 00:18:03,359 --> 00:18:05,280 Speaker 1: One of the things that Protect twenty twenty five wants 330 00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:08,480 Speaker 1: to do is to dismantle a bunch of government agencies, 331 00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:12,400 Speaker 1: including the Department of Education. You can't do these things 332 00:18:13,040 --> 00:18:18,720 Speaker 1: unless you empower the judiciary to stamp them, right, right, I. 333 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:21,120 Speaker 4: Mean Project twenty twenty five. A lot of it can 334 00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:23,600 Speaker 4: exist without the judiciary, right. A lot of it is 335 00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:28,240 Speaker 4: going to be you know, sees Biden regulatory attempts to 336 00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:31,400 Speaker 4: make abortion accessible and flip it on its head and 337 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:33,520 Speaker 4: use it to make abortion inaccessible. 338 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:36,200 Speaker 3: Right, So a lot of it is going to flip. 339 00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:38,120 Speaker 4: What agencies do you know, We're going to do away 340 00:18:38,119 --> 00:18:40,080 Speaker 4: with food stamps, and we're going to do away with 341 00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:43,720 Speaker 4: you know, all sorts of ways of ameliorating poverty and stuff. 342 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:46,680 Speaker 4: So part of it is going to happen by Fiat 343 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:50,040 Speaker 4: by way of agencies. But you're exactly right that once 344 00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:53,639 Speaker 4: you have conferred on the judicial branch, the power to 345 00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:57,480 Speaker 4: decide whether or not that is lawful. Then you're exactly right. 346 00:18:57,800 --> 00:19:01,560 Speaker 4: The judicial branch becomes the rubber stamp. One of the 347 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:04,880 Speaker 4: most interesting cases this year that I think got kind 348 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:07,080 Speaker 4: of a lot of headlines but people didn't deep dive 349 00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:09,040 Speaker 4: on it was the case that was like the most 350 00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:11,280 Speaker 4: heartless case at the end of the term, which was 351 00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:14,320 Speaker 4: the one about you know, criminalizing sleeping in parks. The 352 00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:17,080 Speaker 4: thing that was I thought most fascinating. I mean, there's 353 00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:19,640 Speaker 4: a lot that was fascinating about that. The Court's just like, oh, well, 354 00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:21,399 Speaker 4: homelessness is a problem. What are you going to do 355 00:19:21,520 --> 00:19:23,840 Speaker 4: if you know they want to put them and put 356 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:26,600 Speaker 4: them in jail, so be it. I thought that Justice 357 00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:29,679 Speaker 4: Soto mayors dissent in that case is really worth a 358 00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:33,880 Speaker 4: read because she connects it as you just did, what 359 00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:36,800 Speaker 4: the judicial branch is doing to what government can do. 360 00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:40,879 Speaker 3: And so she starts with this sort of like really deep. 361 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:44,119 Speaker 4: Dive on what has given us a homelessness problem, and 362 00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:49,800 Speaker 4: she's like climate change bing epa right housing policy bing, Like, 363 00:19:49,840 --> 00:19:53,960 Speaker 4: she goes through all of the ways in which government 364 00:19:54,359 --> 00:19:59,320 Speaker 4: agencies can either ameliorate social problems or they can exacerbate them. 365 00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:01,840 Speaker 3: And I I think it was like a very. 366 00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:06,480 Speaker 4: Sly way of making exactly this point that homelessness didn't 367 00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:10,840 Speaker 4: just happen. Homelessness happens because government either has skin in 368 00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:13,400 Speaker 4: the game of fixing it or not. And I thought 369 00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:16,920 Speaker 4: it was just a very very subtle way of saying, 370 00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:21,760 Speaker 4: none of these agencies that you are hobbling in all 371 00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:24,919 Speaker 4: those other cases this year, they can't do their job 372 00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:30,320 Speaker 4: to curb homelessness. So please don't like sanctimoniously say, oh, homelessness, 373 00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:32,760 Speaker 4: where does it come from? Like it comes from what 374 00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:35,440 Speaker 4: you do, and if you don't care about climate change, 375 00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:36,080 Speaker 4: there's going to be. 376 00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:38,479 Speaker 3: More of it. I thought that was a really smart, 377 00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:39,400 Speaker 3: subtle point. 378 00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:44,040 Speaker 1: How does the immunity decision factor into Project twenty twenty 379 00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:47,320 Speaker 1: five because I think of it as it empowers the 380 00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:49,880 Speaker 1: executive in ways we have never seen before. 381 00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:54,280 Speaker 4: Correct, And you're one hundred percent right that, I think again, 382 00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:56,800 Speaker 4: we failed to connect it to Project twenty twenty five 383 00:20:56,800 --> 00:20:59,200 Speaker 4: when we came down right, we were all like doing 384 00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:01,760 Speaker 4: this super lower early thing of like, well, there's official 385 00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:04,560 Speaker 4: acts and unofficial acts, and you know, maybe it's the 386 00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:07,640 Speaker 4: outer perimeter, and maybe it's a core executive function, and 387 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:10,720 Speaker 4: like trying to lawyer, this decision is kind of pointless, 388 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:15,960 Speaker 4: you know, because maybe Jack Smith can like recraft the 389 00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:18,879 Speaker 4: Trump indictment and go back to Judge Chuckkins courtroom and 390 00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:22,000 Speaker 4: you know, follow the path. But like maybe the Supreme 391 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:23,560 Speaker 4: Court will just be like, oh no, what we meant 392 00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:26,560 Speaker 4: was those are all also official acts. So I don't 393 00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:29,440 Speaker 4: know that lawyering these decisions, which is like the very 394 00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:33,000 Speaker 4: reflexive impulse is the answer. I think your impulse is 395 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:34,160 Speaker 4: the correct one, which is what. 396 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:36,600 Speaker 3: Does this seek to do? What this seeks to do 397 00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:37,840 Speaker 3: is exactly what is. 398 00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:40,359 Speaker 4: In the pages of Project twenty twenty five, which is 399 00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:44,439 Speaker 4: create a bulletproof executive branch, which is to sort of 400 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:49,960 Speaker 4: breathe life into this very frightening notion called the unitary executive. 401 00:21:50,119 --> 00:21:53,320 Speaker 4: People may remember the words unitary executive because when they 402 00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:57,400 Speaker 4: were torturing people right at Guantanamo, when they were torturing 403 00:21:57,480 --> 00:22:01,120 Speaker 4: people at Abu grab the defense was us something called 404 00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:04,080 Speaker 4: the unitary executive, which is a version of when the 405 00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:06,880 Speaker 4: president does it, it is in illegal right that there 406 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:11,199 Speaker 4: is such a capacious power around the presidency and what 407 00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:14,680 Speaker 4: he orders people to do that it can't be checked. 408 00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:17,520 Speaker 4: And that is the immunity decision, like that is the 409 00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:21,480 Speaker 4: beating heart of the immunity decision. And I think you're right, Mollie, 410 00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:24,800 Speaker 4: we kind of missed that. That is one of the 411 00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:29,560 Speaker 4: sort of like wishless like checkboxes in Project twenty twenty 412 00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:33,280 Speaker 4: five that the Court just conferred in like open daylight 413 00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:38,320 Speaker 4: in the Biden administration. This theory that there is almost 414 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:44,720 Speaker 4: boundless executive control. This was like the bush Cheney wet 415 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:48,840 Speaker 4: dream that has now been written into constitutional law. You're 416 00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:51,760 Speaker 4: absolutely right, and shame on us that we missed it. 417 00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:53,800 Speaker 3: John, you wrote that decision. 418 00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:57,639 Speaker 4: I mean, he wrote the Office of Legal Council memo 419 00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:02,840 Speaker 4: famously that said, right, unless there's organ damage, it's not torture. 420 00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:07,480 Speaker 4: But yes, it was rooted in this theory of presidential power, which, 421 00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:11,440 Speaker 4: by the way, just like sidebar when people are surprised 422 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:14,960 Speaker 4: that John Roberts and Brett Kavanaugh signed off on this 423 00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:22,280 Speaker 4: immunity decision, this theory of expansive, almost boundless executive power, 424 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:25,040 Speaker 4: this was their dream, right, This is not a surprise. 425 00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:28,240 Speaker 4: This is how John Roberts has thought about the executive 426 00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:31,040 Speaker 4: branch for a really long time. And so while the 427 00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:34,200 Speaker 4: opinion is sort of shocking on its face for reasons 428 00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:36,439 Speaker 4: that you know, we can talk about or not. The 429 00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:39,439 Speaker 4: fact that Brett Kavanaugh and John Roberts signed up for 430 00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:42,560 Speaker 4: this project should not surprise people. This has been things 431 00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:45,400 Speaker 4: something that they have been working on in their capacity 432 00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:47,320 Speaker 4: before they came to the court for a long time. 433 00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:49,160 Speaker 3: This made so much sense. 434 00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:54,159 Speaker 1: I appreciate you so much. We needed this little caveat 435 00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:57,399 Speaker 1: to close the loop on Project twenty twenty five. I 436 00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:01,400 Speaker 1: love you, I appreciate you. Continue to be my north star. 437 00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:03,480 Speaker 3: Oh thank you, back at you. 438 00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:08,920 Speaker 2: Dave Aggers is the author of The Circle, Joe Westbrook 439 00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:11,960 Speaker 2: is a public schools teacher, and Arthur Bradford is the 440 00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:14,439 Speaker 2: director of the documentary To Be Destroyed. 441 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:24,080 Speaker 1: Welcome to fast Politics. Everyone's going to have to say hi, 442 00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:26,400 Speaker 1: so we can identify people. 443 00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:30,800 Speaker 3: Who've got Arthur. Hi, I'm Arthur. Arthur's the director of 444 00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:32,200 Speaker 3: this movie. And then we have. 445 00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:38,200 Speaker 1: Dave, who is the author and the subject of this documentary. 446 00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:39,880 Speaker 5: Hi. This is Dave. 447 00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:42,679 Speaker 6: Although I would say I am just a participant in 448 00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:46,880 Speaker 6: that documentary. The subject is Rapid City and what they 449 00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:50,200 Speaker 6: did to fight back when their school board went rogue. 450 00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:53,639 Speaker 3: Tell us sort of how this movie came into being. 451 00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:57,600 Speaker 6: Right a couple of years ago, Amanda Ewley, who is 452 00:24:57,600 --> 00:24:59,840 Speaker 6: the publisher of McSweeney's, that we work on a lot 453 00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:03,479 Speaker 6: of projects together. She called one day and said, you 454 00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:06,760 Speaker 6: hear your book was banned in Rapid City in South Dakota. 455 00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:09,080 Speaker 6: And I had never been banned before, and I couldn't 456 00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:10,680 Speaker 6: even think of what book it would be. 457 00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:13,080 Speaker 5: She told me it was The Circle, which really. 458 00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:15,200 Speaker 6: Didn't make any sense because I couldn't think of anything 459 00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:18,640 Speaker 6: highly objectionable in that book unless it was banned by 460 00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:21,760 Speaker 6: Silicon Valley Company or something. So it didn't make any 461 00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:23,840 Speaker 6: sense that it was being banned in South Dakota. But 462 00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:26,480 Speaker 6: we got to the bottom of it and figured out 463 00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:29,640 Speaker 6: that there were maybe three or four pages that were 464 00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:34,840 Speaker 6: vaguely sexual in nature. There's some very very awkward sex 465 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:37,679 Speaker 6: scenes in the book that are kind of meant to 466 00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:41,040 Speaker 6: be very awkward, and sort of the hech company that 467 00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:43,480 Speaker 6: the center of the book is pre you. It's such 468 00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:46,240 Speaker 6: an atmosphere that everybody's awkward all the time. And so 469 00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:49,920 Speaker 6: it turns out that the book had been assigned as 470 00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:53,200 Speaker 6: not a sign but made available as an option for 471 00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:58,000 Speaker 6: seniors in advanced literature classes in Rapid City. A new 472 00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:02,280 Speaker 6: school board came in a more conservative than the one 473 00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:05,120 Speaker 6: before it, and four new members were elected. 474 00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:07,639 Speaker 1: I just want to pause for a second here and 475 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:11,040 Speaker 1: just mentioned that this school board was part of this 476 00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:16,080 Speaker 1: Mom's for Liberty carsh to replace members of the school 477 00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:20,640 Speaker 1: board who were less ideological with people who were ideologically 478 00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:23,879 Speaker 1: aligned with Moms for Liberty, And also that some of 479 00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:26,760 Speaker 1: the members of the school board, these three new members, 480 00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:30,399 Speaker 1: or maybe all of them, didn't have children at the school. 481 00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:35,240 Speaker 6: Right right, It wasn't Moms for Liberty directly participating. There 482 00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:38,359 Speaker 6: were two groups called one called Family Heritage Alliance and 483 00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:42,440 Speaker 6: the other one called the Free Republic Pack. But they're 484 00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:45,000 Speaker 6: doing the same thing that Moms for Liberty do. They 485 00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:47,680 Speaker 6: work from the same playbook. They have the same list 486 00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:50,520 Speaker 6: of books that they tried to take out of school 487 00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:54,359 Speaker 6: libraries and off school reading lists. And yet the incoming 488 00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:57,960 Speaker 6: president of the school board, Kate Thomas, had seven kids, 489 00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:00,560 Speaker 6: none of them were in the school district, all of 490 00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:04,200 Speaker 6: whom were homeschooled. So had a new group of school 491 00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:06,880 Speaker 6: board members, none of whom had kids in the district. 492 00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:10,240 Speaker 6: But what was really interesting was that the school board 493 00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:14,760 Speaker 6: itself did not overtly ban these books. It was a 494 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:17,960 Speaker 6: group of principles from the high school that when this 495 00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:22,119 Speaker 6: new school board was swept in, they pre banned the books. 496 00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:25,600 Speaker 6: They series of emails went around these three principles saying, 497 00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:27,960 Speaker 6: now that we have a new school board, you should 498 00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:31,440 Speaker 6: be very careful. We should eliminate any risks. We better 499 00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:35,760 Speaker 6: be more conservative than before. And so they started looking 500 00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:39,600 Speaker 6: through the school reading lists and libraries to see which 501 00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:42,920 Speaker 6: books school board might object to, and they pulled them 502 00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:46,080 Speaker 6: even before there was any sort of formal activity. 503 00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:47,159 Speaker 5: Did that make sense? 504 00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:51,640 Speaker 1: So, Jill, explain to me how you got involved in 505 00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:54,399 Speaker 1: this pushback against book banning. 506 00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:57,320 Speaker 7: Well, I'm an English teacher in the Rapid city school 507 00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:01,560 Speaker 7: districts and our first indication that there was anything wrong 508 00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:04,439 Speaker 7: with the books that had been chosen for these senior 509 00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:08,679 Speaker 7: English classes was an email over the summer, the summer 510 00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:13,560 Speaker 7: of twenty twenty one, and it was from our administrator, 511 00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:17,440 Speaker 7: our principal at our school, and had an excerpt from 512 00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:21,000 Speaker 7: one of the books that were in question that had 513 00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:25,280 Speaker 7: a little sexual activity in that particular section of the book, 514 00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:28,920 Speaker 7: and an email that told us to remove those from 515 00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:32,920 Speaker 7: our classrooms when we came back to school a month later. 516 00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:34,160 Speaker 7: And then it sort of snowballed. 517 00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:35,560 Speaker 3: We got another email about a. 518 00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:38,840 Speaker 7: Different book, and then a third, and then we just 519 00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:42,800 Speaker 7: started asking questions and trying to figure out where this 520 00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:46,080 Speaker 7: was coming from and were all of our books in 521 00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:50,880 Speaker 7: jeopardy that we taught and where it originated from. 522 00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:55,840 Speaker 1: Can you sort of explain to us what South Dakota 523 00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:58,880 Speaker 1: kind of what it's like there, and like, had anything 524 00:28:58,920 --> 00:28:59,200 Speaker 1: like this. 525 00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:02,840 Speaker 7: Ever happened for not in the education community, as far 526 00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:07,160 Speaker 7: as we were all aware of the larger conversation of 527 00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:11,800 Speaker 7: books that are appropriate for certain levels of classrooms to teach. 528 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:16,320 Speaker 7: And we're professionals, so we take it very seriously when 529 00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:19,280 Speaker 7: we choose literature to teach to our classes. But this 530 00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:23,120 Speaker 7: was brand new as far as polling books that had 531 00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:27,160 Speaker 7: been approved and ordered and were on the curriculum. It 532 00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:30,560 Speaker 7: took us by surprise. Maybe it shouldn't have, but it did, 533 00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:35,840 Speaker 7: and we started to investigate and it made everybody really nervous. 534 00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:38,600 Speaker 7: As far as the five books that were pulled have 535 00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:42,160 Speaker 7: content in them that is not that different from the 536 00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:45,640 Speaker 7: classics that we teach and other modern literature that's been 537 00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:47,360 Speaker 7: in the classrooms for decades. 538 00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:50,560 Speaker 1: That's what I'm curious about, Like, were you just shocked 539 00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:53,640 Speaker 1: or because you had seen stuff about this on the news, 540 00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:56,360 Speaker 1: did you sort of think it might eventually come to you. 541 00:29:56,760 --> 00:30:00,200 Speaker 7: I think as far as were we shocked, yes, that 542 00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:03,840 Speaker 7: it was immediate pull the books, get them out of 543 00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:06,880 Speaker 7: the classrooms, and then it sort of kind of heightened 544 00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:10,520 Speaker 7: into a frenzy at some point where there were people 545 00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:13,720 Speaker 7: running around making sure that we didn't have specific books 546 00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:15,960 Speaker 7: on our shelves, whether they were in a class set 547 00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:19,960 Speaker 7: or teachers' personal copies of books that we loaned out 548 00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:20,760 Speaker 7: to students. 549 00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:21,440 Speaker 3: It did. 550 00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:25,200 Speaker 7: It took us by surprise, and no one had questioned 551 00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:28,760 Speaker 7: book orders in the past or books that we had chosen. 552 00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:31,960 Speaker 7: They just let us be professional and know that we 553 00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:34,040 Speaker 7: know our students and we know our curriculum. 554 00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:36,800 Speaker 1: One of the things that I think you guys did 555 00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:39,120 Speaker 1: which was amazing, and I don't know if you can 556 00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:41,440 Speaker 1: speak to this because it was more of on the 557 00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:47,600 Speaker 1: administration side, but there were small things that were enacted 558 00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:51,680 Speaker 1: to change the way because these people who joined who 559 00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:56,200 Speaker 1: were involved, right, the superintendent and the people on the 560 00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:59,360 Speaker 1: school board, none of them had kids at the school, right, 561 00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:02,160 Speaker 1: So it was a way to sort of just change 562 00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:04,840 Speaker 1: the rules to make sure that if you are on 563 00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:08,280 Speaker 1: the school board making decisions for the students. You need 564 00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:10,320 Speaker 1: to have kids who go to the school, and that 565 00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:12,280 Speaker 1: prevented a lot of those right. 566 00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:15,760 Speaker 7: Well, it would have, yes, And while that's not a 567 00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:20,080 Speaker 7: direct change in any policy, it has become such a 568 00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:24,320 Speaker 7: conversation that the newest members who've been elected either have 569 00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:28,360 Speaker 7: students who went through our school system, have students who 570 00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:31,440 Speaker 7: are currently in our school system, and we have at 571 00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:35,320 Speaker 7: least one member who doesn't have children but is a 572 00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:38,480 Speaker 7: former teacher at the school where this was happening. So 573 00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:42,600 Speaker 7: people who were invested in the local school district more 574 00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:47,840 Speaker 7: than as an oversight or pushing policy, and were interested 575 00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:51,080 Speaker 7: in actually the education of the children in the community. 576 00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:55,120 Speaker 3: Yes, Arthur, explain to us how you got involved in this. 577 00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:55,760 Speaker 2: Sure. 578 00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:58,200 Speaker 8: Yeah, Dave and I have been friends for a long time, 579 00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:02,280 Speaker 8: and I'm a documentary film maker. So I had reached 580 00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:06,040 Speaker 8: out to Dave years earlier, or maybe a year earlier, 581 00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:09,520 Speaker 8: just to ask him if he was doing anything interesting 582 00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:12,800 Speaker 8: that he might allow us to film. There's always some 583 00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:15,920 Speaker 8: project that he's doing that is interesting in some way. 584 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:18,840 Speaker 8: So we had gone over a bunch of different ideas, 585 00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:22,520 Speaker 8: but this one wasn't something we had discussed. It kind 586 00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:24,960 Speaker 8: of just came up. He mentioned that he was going 587 00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:28,040 Speaker 8: to Rapid City. Kind of it was almost like last minute, 588 00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:31,200 Speaker 8: and we just asked if we could please come along 589 00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:33,560 Speaker 8: and film and see what had happened. 590 00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:36,440 Speaker 5: It seemed like it could be interesting. I first went 591 00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:37,520 Speaker 5: as a journalist. 592 00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:40,480 Speaker 6: I wrote about the book band for the Washington Post 593 00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:43,200 Speaker 6: because I'd been reading about the band, you know, elsewhere 594 00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:45,480 Speaker 6: in the country for years. You know, we have an 595 00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:48,920 Speaker 6: epidemic right now at over four thousand books ban just 596 00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:51,400 Speaker 6: in the first half of twenty twenty four. So I 597 00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:54,080 Speaker 6: just wanted to see how it was done, the actual 598 00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:57,040 Speaker 6: mechanics of it. And they're really interesting in that it 599 00:32:57,280 --> 00:32:59,960 Speaker 6: happened a lot of different ways. But one thing that 600 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:02,960 Speaker 6: it never really happens is that these bands are never 601 00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:09,240 Speaker 6: or very rarely authentic from the grassroots parents actually objecting 602 00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:12,240 Speaker 6: that sort of thing. Those things very rarely happen. It's 603 00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:15,800 Speaker 6: always sort of engineered by an outside group. And the 604 00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:19,040 Speaker 6: number of complaints from actual parents that have kids in 605 00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:21,720 Speaker 6: the district that don't want their kids reading a certain 606 00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:25,920 Speaker 6: book are just incredibly rare. Those things almost never happen. 607 00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:30,400 Speaker 6: It's almost always one person, usually an agitator affiliated with 608 00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:33,160 Speaker 6: Moms for Liberty that makes all of the complaints, and 609 00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:36,880 Speaker 6: some districts you have six hundred books that are challenged 610 00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:39,800 Speaker 6: and they're all challenged by one person. So this is 611 00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:41,720 Speaker 6: not an organic movement. 612 00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:45,400 Speaker 1: Arthur, when you got there, I've never been to South Dakota. 613 00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:49,120 Speaker 1: I don't think there's a direct flight from Manhattan. I'm 614 00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:50,640 Speaker 1: just curious if you could talk to us a little 615 00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:53,160 Speaker 1: bit about what sort of life in South Dakota is 616 00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:55,120 Speaker 1: like or how you found it. 617 00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:59,640 Speaker 8: Well, it's a small American city. Yeah, so yeah, it's true. 618 00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:02,920 Speaker 8: You have you fly through Denver. I live in Portland, Oregon, 619 00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:06,840 Speaker 8: so it wasn't a totally foreign place. But in some ways, 620 00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:09,400 Speaker 8: I think living on the coast, I was expecting it 621 00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:12,719 Speaker 8: to be almost more conservative than I think it really is. 622 00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:15,319 Speaker 8: And maybe this is what was a function of that. 623 00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:18,240 Speaker 8: We were meeting a lot of the teachers and people 624 00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:20,919 Speaker 8: like Jill, who will be talking to soon. 625 00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:21,360 Speaker 5: I guess. 626 00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:24,560 Speaker 8: You know, it's a very flat landscape, although there's the 627 00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:28,840 Speaker 8: Black Hills are nearby, and I found that it's not 628 00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:33,480 Speaker 8: that different than your typical American places. But there was 629 00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:37,520 Speaker 8: a sense of you know, the pandemic was just kind 630 00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:40,640 Speaker 8: of easing up as we were starting to film. So 631 00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:44,160 Speaker 8: there was a sense, like all over America, that things 632 00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:47,640 Speaker 8: had changed, things had shifted, and that people were maybe 633 00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:50,320 Speaker 8: a little bit wary of outsiders there. 634 00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:53,040 Speaker 5: I think Rapid City, it's a great town. 635 00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:55,840 Speaker 6: We ended up spending well, I've spent a lot of 636 00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:57,560 Speaker 6: time there at this point. I spent a lot of 637 00:34:57,560 --> 00:35:00,319 Speaker 6: time in Idaho. I didn't find a very different that, 638 00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:03,440 Speaker 6: but you know, it's a pretty sophisticated small city. We 639 00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:07,120 Speaker 6: had a rally, sort of sort of information speaking night 640 00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:09,680 Speaker 6: where people could, you know, town hall kind of thing 641 00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:13,239 Speaker 6: that's in the documentary, and we did expect maybe that 642 00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:16,880 Speaker 6: there would be people standing up saying let's ban some books. 643 00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:20,440 Speaker 5: We don't want these books in our libraries. Whatever. There 644 00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:21,000 Speaker 5: was nobody. 645 00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:23,200 Speaker 6: You could not find anybody, And I think that so 646 00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:26,640 Speaker 6: many the people there are so embarrassed by having this 647 00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:28,759 Speaker 6: take place in their town because I don't think it 648 00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:32,160 Speaker 6: has any popular support. So whether South Dakota as a 649 00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:34,439 Speaker 6: whole is red state, I guess it votes that way. 650 00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:37,520 Speaker 6: But in this town, and in almost any town in 651 00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:40,520 Speaker 6: the US, you're going to find piny, little pockets of 652 00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:44,520 Speaker 6: support for book bands and overwhelming sentiment against them, and 653 00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:47,279 Speaker 6: I have sort of incident faiths and people to do 654 00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:49,560 Speaker 6: the right thing when they have the right information and 655 00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:53,120 Speaker 6: if they know that something so Unamerican and embarrassing like 656 00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:55,200 Speaker 6: a book ban is happening in their town, they will 657 00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:58,200 Speaker 6: act to restore the right to read freely. I would 658 00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:01,120 Speaker 6: encourage anybody to go Rapid City. It's a and the 659 00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:03,919 Speaker 6: surrounding area. You know, Mount rushports about half an hour away, 660 00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:07,240 Speaker 6: and the Black Hills are there. It's a gorgeous area actually, 661 00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:10,680 Speaker 6: And the people restored our faith in sort of just 662 00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:13,520 Speaker 6: any community anywhere doing the right thing. 663 00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:16,480 Speaker 8: I think that is probably the impression a lot of 664 00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:19,000 Speaker 8: like people would have never been there. It's a really 665 00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:23,000 Speaker 8: cool place. The downtown is very interesting. One thing that 666 00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:25,799 Speaker 8: we notice and you'll see in the film is like 667 00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:29,320 Speaker 8: on every corner downtown is a statue of a different 668 00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:33,200 Speaker 8: US president in the Rapid City, which is it's very striking. 669 00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:37,960 Speaker 8: It's just all these You've got Richard Nixon, Jimmy Carter, fdr. 670 00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:42,000 Speaker 6: All that most of them are surprisingly short. It's really interesting. 671 00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:46,600 Speaker 6: There's some very short presidents, like in the five two, 672 00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:49,759 Speaker 6: five three. It's either that or they can drunk. All 673 00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:52,760 Speaker 6: of these statues just a little bit and make pastors 674 00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:57,000 Speaker 6: by feel better about themselves. It was really weird, but 675 00:36:57,080 --> 00:37:00,480 Speaker 6: I will say, like everybody that we called really early on, 676 00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:02,440 Speaker 6: you know, the first thing that we did when we 677 00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:05,319 Speaker 6: heard the Circle was banned and four other books, is 678 00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:09,359 Speaker 6: that we called Mitzi's with local independent bookstore, and we said, hey, 679 00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:12,360 Speaker 6: if the seniors in high school that had been offered 680 00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:14,799 Speaker 6: these books but now they can't access them, what if 681 00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:17,440 Speaker 6: we allowed any of these seniors to come into your 682 00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:20,600 Speaker 6: store and get all five banned books for free, We'll 683 00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:21,160 Speaker 6: pay for it. 684 00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:23,040 Speaker 5: And Mitzies immediately said. 685 00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:25,239 Speaker 6: Yes, like they didn't have to think about it, and 686 00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:27,200 Speaker 6: we got started with that the next day. 687 00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:30,000 Speaker 5: Basically, so any seniors could just. 688 00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:32,320 Speaker 6: Walk in and say give me those five banned books 689 00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:35,239 Speaker 6: and they'd walk away with five books for free. And 690 00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:37,799 Speaker 6: then there's a t shirt maker across the street that 691 00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:40,600 Speaker 6: we said, hey, can we make shirts here it's say 692 00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:44,600 Speaker 6: let readers read and let teachers teach, And they said shirt. 693 00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:46,879 Speaker 6: They put them in the front window and people could 694 00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:49,080 Speaker 6: also go in and get those shirts for free. So 695 00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:51,279 Speaker 6: it was just sort of like it kind of has 696 00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:53,719 Speaker 6: the feel of a college town even though there are 697 00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:56,839 Speaker 6: a few small schools there, but I think everybody there 698 00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:01,320 Speaker 6: was completely aboard with the idea of fighting this rogue 699 00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:04,320 Speaker 6: schoolboard that didn't represent their value. 700 00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:06,640 Speaker 1: One of the things I wanted to ask you, guys, 701 00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:10,680 Speaker 1: which is part of this idea, is that I wonder 702 00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:12,759 Speaker 1: because when I saw the movie, this is what I 703 00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:16,919 Speaker 1: was thinking about, was just how much of this is organic? 704 00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:18,240 Speaker 3: These book bands? 705 00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:21,240 Speaker 1: And you've talked about this already with the one person 706 00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:23,840 Speaker 1: reporting the books again and again, and how much of 707 00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:27,600 Speaker 1: this is actually AstroTurf? So can you talk about the 708 00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:31,120 Speaker 1: ways in which these book bands are actually you know, 709 00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:33,080 Speaker 1: there's sort of a template for doing it. 710 00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:35,640 Speaker 6: You know, there's Moms for Liberty, which is the sort 711 00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:38,080 Speaker 6: of the leader in this. They're pretty well funded, pretty 712 00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:41,560 Speaker 6: well organized. They have a playbook that they can sort 713 00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:45,160 Speaker 6: of map onto any town, especially a smaller town or 714 00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:48,080 Speaker 6: a more valuable district. And then there's a website called 715 00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:52,440 Speaker 6: booklooks dot org. What they've analyzed like hundreds and maybe 716 00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:55,120 Speaker 6: thousands by now of books and they pull out all 717 00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:58,320 Speaker 6: of the objectionable parts to each book so that anybody 718 00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:02,040 Speaker 6: that wants to and any books can just go there 719 00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:06,239 Speaker 6: and just get immediately to the page and passage from 720 00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:11,520 Speaker 6: each book, from It's twenty two to Beloved to Mouse 721 00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:14,480 Speaker 6: to the Diary of Anne Frank. If you can believe it, 722 00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:17,560 Speaker 6: that is also a book that's being hanned a lot 723 00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:21,200 Speaker 6: right now because of some references to her body changing 724 00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:23,759 Speaker 6: and being attracted to another girl. If anybody wants to 725 00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:25,480 Speaker 6: do that, they can just sort of go to the 726 00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:28,520 Speaker 6: mom's for a liberty playbook, go to booklooks org and 727 00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:31,600 Speaker 6: then at first blush. Some of these books can look like, 728 00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:36,000 Speaker 6: oh wow, yeah, that shouldn't be taught to my third 729 00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:39,720 Speaker 6: grader or whatever. But what you don't find in almost 730 00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:44,080 Speaker 6: any community, you do not find actual parents going on 731 00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:47,000 Speaker 6: the recue saying I don't want my kid reading this. 732 00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:50,719 Speaker 6: And one of the reasons I have teenagers myself. One 733 00:39:50,719 --> 00:39:52,600 Speaker 6: of the reasons that, first of all, I don't think 734 00:39:52,640 --> 00:39:55,480 Speaker 6: people in general believe in banning books. I think that 735 00:39:56,320 --> 00:40:01,960 Speaker 6: overwhelmingly bipartisan issues that the overwhelming majority of Americans say, 736 00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:04,080 Speaker 6: this is just not our way of life. 737 00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:04,640 Speaker 3: Yeah. 738 00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:07,160 Speaker 6: The other thing I thought about being around teenagers too 739 00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:11,160 Speaker 6: much is that no teenagers want to be that family 740 00:40:11,719 --> 00:40:14,919 Speaker 6: that is banning books. You know, they don't want their 741 00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:19,080 Speaker 6: parents embarrassing them by being out front in the newspaper 742 00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:22,319 Speaker 6: saying that, you know, my son or daughters shouldn't have 743 00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:26,719 Speaker 6: access to these books because it's so mortified for them. 744 00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:30,600 Speaker 6: And so I think that for those two reasons. One 745 00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:35,320 Speaker 6: it's an American and unenlightened. Second, it's embarrassing for the family. 746 00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:38,520 Speaker 6: And third, the craziest thing of all, And it comes up, 747 00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:40,920 Speaker 6: you know, in our town hall with teenagers, is that 748 00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:42,960 Speaker 6: again and again when they came up to speak at 749 00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:45,399 Speaker 6: the microphone at the town all the teenagers would pull 750 00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:48,399 Speaker 6: out their phones and say, I have everything I could 751 00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:51,399 Speaker 6: ever want and more on this phone. So why are 752 00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:54,640 Speaker 6: we banning a book when I can get infinitely more 753 00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:58,440 Speaker 6: lewd information on this phone at any time. So it's 754 00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:02,600 Speaker 6: a very strange thing. It's coming from a very strange place. 755 00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:05,480 Speaker 6: It's say, we're not going to ban phones, we're not 756 00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:09,319 Speaker 6: even commenting on that issue. But these books from how 757 00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:13,879 Speaker 6: to symbolize values or symbolized ways of life or kid's 758 00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:17,000 Speaker 6: information that we don't want them getting. And then you 759 00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:21,480 Speaker 6: get into how many of the books have LGBTQ themes 760 00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:25,239 Speaker 6: and many of the books sort of present non white narratives, 761 00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:30,480 Speaker 6: narratives go against sort of the farthest right version of 762 00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:34,520 Speaker 6: the history of the US. And then then you get 763 00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:38,080 Speaker 6: to sort of the essence of moms or moms for liberty, 764 00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:42,680 Speaker 6: and that is that they don't want these narratives and 765 00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:47,760 Speaker 6: these stories being taught in schools and then thus being 766 00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:52,160 Speaker 6: endorsed by teachers who have a position of trust and 767 00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:56,719 Speaker 6: power in their children's lives. And so that's where a 768 00:41:56,760 --> 00:41:58,879 Speaker 6: lot of this is coming from. You know, the vast 769 00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:02,160 Speaker 6: majority of the books that are these banned lists are 770 00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:06,240 Speaker 6: presenting these kinds of themes and these stories and narratives 771 00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:11,360 Speaker 6: that they don't want their children exposed to. And obviously, 772 00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:16,040 Speaker 6: the tragedy is that so many places, like more remote 773 00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:19,799 Speaker 6: towns where if you're a gay kid that's looking for 774 00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:22,680 Speaker 6: a book like Perks of Being a Wallflower, that might 775 00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:26,520 Speaker 6: present story that reflects your own experience or helps you 776 00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:30,000 Speaker 6: get through adolescents or helps you sort of see yourself 777 00:42:30,120 --> 00:42:30,680 Speaker 6: in a book. 778 00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:31,959 Speaker 5: If those kids are. 779 00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:35,400 Speaker 6: Prevented from seeing these books or being sort of guided 780 00:42:35,440 --> 00:42:39,000 Speaker 6: through these books by trusted teachers, then that's tragic because 781 00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:40,759 Speaker 6: those are the kids that need it most, that are 782 00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:43,080 Speaker 6: sort of in more remote areas where they don't have 783 00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:45,120 Speaker 6: a lot of role models that have lived the same 784 00:42:45,239 --> 00:42:48,759 Speaker 6: that are sort of guide them through their adolescence. And 785 00:42:48,920 --> 00:42:52,920 Speaker 6: so this is obviously that at the core of it, 786 00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:56,480 Speaker 6: because Moms for Liberty again are not saying don't look 787 00:42:56,520 --> 00:43:00,439 Speaker 6: at your phone or information about being a gay kids 788 00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:03,880 Speaker 6: and not saying that. They're saying they don't want teachers 789 00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:06,400 Speaker 6: teaching them and they don't want them to be tactically 790 00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:09,600 Speaker 6: endorsed by being on library so and that I think 791 00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:12,960 Speaker 6: is sort of the our darker truth and the more 792 00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:15,920 Speaker 6: insidious effect of Facebook bands. 793 00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:17,680 Speaker 1: One of the cool things about the movie is that 794 00:43:17,719 --> 00:43:22,279 Speaker 1: you really see what a thriving, fabulous little city you 795 00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:25,000 Speaker 1: guys have. Do you think that the sort of you 796 00:43:25,120 --> 00:43:28,040 Speaker 1: can be a spot of I don't know what the 797 00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:30,840 Speaker 1: voting pattern in the city is, but there certainly is 798 00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:34,799 Speaker 1: a feeling that people are very progressive and open to 799 00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:39,759 Speaker 1: things and intellectual things. And I'm wondering if that's sort 800 00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:41,320 Speaker 1: of a lesson to take from the movie. 801 00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:44,440 Speaker 7: I think it is, and if I could even expand 802 00:43:44,480 --> 00:43:47,879 Speaker 7: on that Furli, I think the lesson here is that 803 00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:51,440 Speaker 7: we as educators, as parents. I have a student at 804 00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:52,120 Speaker 7: the high school. 805 00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:54,200 Speaker 3: We didn't back down. 806 00:43:54,560 --> 00:43:57,880 Speaker 7: We faced the fear of what comes next, if we 807 00:43:57,960 --> 00:44:01,239 Speaker 7: say these things out loud that were feeling, that are reasonable, 808 00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:05,440 Speaker 7: and we send them out loud, and we the community listened. 809 00:44:05,719 --> 00:44:08,200 Speaker 7: And one of the things that I think we learned 810 00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:11,080 Speaker 7: as a community that I think is a broader picture, 811 00:44:11,560 --> 00:44:15,680 Speaker 7: is that the majority of people are reasonable and the 812 00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:20,000 Speaker 7: voices that our loudest are not the reasonable ones. And 813 00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:23,920 Speaker 7: so the louder we got and the more we just 814 00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:28,360 Speaker 7: didn't sit in our fear, we were able to enact change. 815 00:44:28,680 --> 00:44:32,240 Speaker 1: I mean, that is absolutely true. Thank you so much 816 00:44:32,320 --> 00:44:34,719 Speaker 1: for coming on and just talking to me about this. 817 00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:37,840 Speaker 1: The movie is amazing and thank you are doing in 818 00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:39,160 Speaker 1: your community is really cool. 819 00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:42,680 Speaker 7: Thank you. I appreciate the opportunity to be the spokesperson 820 00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:43,520 Speaker 7: for our school. 821 00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:45,680 Speaker 3: Thanks you, guys, really appreciate you. 822 00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:46,919 Speaker 5: Oh okay, thank the lot. 823 00:44:47,080 --> 00:44:47,800 Speaker 3: Thank you.