1 00:00:01,000 --> 00:00:06,360 Speaker 1: Conversations on life, style, beauty and relationships. It's The Velvet's 2 00:00:06,400 --> 00:00:09,680 Speaker 1: Edge podcast with Kelly Henderson. Kayla Lions is here. She 3 00:00:09,960 --> 00:00:13,200 Speaker 1: is the creator of Joined sob Rig, which is a 4 00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:15,520 Speaker 1: community of people taking their power back from alcohol. And 5 00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:18,800 Speaker 1: also when thousand hours Dry, which you were just explaining 6 00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:22,320 Speaker 1: to me is a dry community, was also a challenge 7 00:00:22,360 --> 00:00:25,960 Speaker 1: you started back in your old influencer days also were 8 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:32,000 Speaker 1: recovering influencers. I understand, um, so talk to us a 9 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:33,959 Speaker 1: little bit. Let's let the listeners know a little bit 10 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:35,440 Speaker 1: more more about you, and I want to know a 11 00:00:35,479 --> 00:00:37,120 Speaker 1: little bit more about you two and how you even 12 00:00:37,159 --> 00:00:41,000 Speaker 1: got here. So take us back to what your life 13 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:48,839 Speaker 1: looked like before being sober ish. Absolutely, I think my 14 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:53,680 Speaker 1: story is pretty similar to a lot of other people's stories. 15 00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:55,840 Speaker 1: You know, when you when you get down to it, 16 00:00:55,920 --> 00:00:59,280 Speaker 1: when you take away all the other you know details. 17 00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:04,920 Speaker 1: But I started drinking at fourteen or fifteen. It was 18 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 1: kind of the societal thing to do here in the US. 19 00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:10,800 Speaker 1: I just moved from overseas. I was really hungry to 20 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:14,720 Speaker 1: fit in. I didn't have any experience with public school 21 00:01:14,880 --> 00:01:19,160 Speaker 1: or really living in America, so coming back was a 22 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:22,240 Speaker 1: big culture shock and then also being public school as 23 00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:25,480 Speaker 1: a culture shock. I was used to a class of 24 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:29,080 Speaker 1: like ten people, right, and everything was super small and 25 00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:33,920 Speaker 1: are and there wasn't clicks, and you know, literally my 26 00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:37,480 Speaker 1: idea of what American high school was going to be 27 00:01:37,560 --> 00:01:41,240 Speaker 1: like came from watching Mean Girls, and so I was terrified. 28 00:01:43,240 --> 00:01:45,080 Speaker 1: I was like, Oh my gosh, how am I gonna 29 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:52,840 Speaker 1: do this? And kind of naturally, alcohol became my vice. 30 00:01:53,400 --> 00:01:58,559 Speaker 1: It was really super attainable. My parents are pretty big 31 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:02,880 Speaker 1: wine drinkers, and it was never something that they hid 32 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:05,880 Speaker 1: from us or you know, told us we couldn't drink 33 00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:07,720 Speaker 1: if we were ever wanting to have like a glass 34 00:02:07,720 --> 00:02:10,639 Speaker 1: of wine at dinner or something, they were okay with it. 35 00:02:11,639 --> 00:02:15,840 Speaker 1: So it just kind of seemed like the natural thing 36 00:02:15,919 --> 00:02:18,880 Speaker 1: to reach for, because that's kind of you know, there 37 00:02:18,919 --> 00:02:22,320 Speaker 1: wasn't any addiction in my direct like my direct group 38 00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:27,080 Speaker 1: of family. There wasn't any restriction of food or something 39 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:29,280 Speaker 1: that would maybe make me lean more towards an eating 40 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:32,400 Speaker 1: disorder or something which I ended up developing anyways, But 41 00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:38,440 Speaker 1: in the beginning, I had that I have arrived moment 42 00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:43,040 Speaker 1: when you know, really getting intoxicated for the first time, 43 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:50,760 Speaker 1: and my relationship with alcohol was very hard like hardcore 44 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:55,720 Speaker 1: from the beginning. It was not in any way like progressive. 45 00:02:55,960 --> 00:02:59,880 Speaker 1: It just I hit the ground running, and I think 46 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:03,240 Speaker 1: by the time I ended up going away to college, 47 00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:07,840 Speaker 1: I had already gotten like three underage alcohol citations, I 48 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:11,320 Speaker 1: had gotten suspended from school, and it was all just drinking. 49 00:03:12,080 --> 00:03:18,120 Speaker 1: You know. It had quickly become my identity because, like 50 00:03:18,160 --> 00:03:20,920 Speaker 1: I said, I was really coming in it as a 51 00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:24,960 Speaker 1: blank slate and really really wanting to fit in and 52 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:27,360 Speaker 1: just wanting to be a part of community. I think, 53 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:30,519 Speaker 1: like anybody any other human being, I just wanted to connect. 54 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:37,400 Speaker 1: And as soon as I adopted this party girl persona, 55 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:40,600 Speaker 1: you know, people wanted to be around me, people wanted 56 00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:43,120 Speaker 1: to know what I was doing. And then I kind 57 00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 1: of just adopted that as who I was, and I 58 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:49,280 Speaker 1: took that into college, and then progressively things just got worse. 59 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:55,120 Speaker 1: I don't know anybody who's drinking got better in college. Um, 60 00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:58,880 Speaker 1: And you know, it's just to me that, especially the 61 00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:02,240 Speaker 1: American college environment is really kind of like a breeding 62 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:06,280 Speaker 1: ground for alcohol used disorder because you're doing all of 63 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:09,560 Speaker 1: this binge drinking all of the time. There's always something 64 00:04:10,560 --> 00:04:13,560 Speaker 1: to drink or to do drugs around and then you're 65 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:15,800 Speaker 1: doing that for four or five or six years, you know, 66 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:18,640 Speaker 1: however long you go, and then you go out into 67 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:24,440 Speaker 1: the real world, and that's kind of when you're supposed 68 00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:27,359 Speaker 1: to go just become a normal person and not drink 69 00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:29,960 Speaker 1: like every day of the week anymore. And I think 70 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:33,279 Speaker 1: for those of us that are, you know, predisposed, or 71 00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:35,200 Speaker 1: who already have a lot of other issues and we're 72 00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:38,280 Speaker 1: using alcohol to medicate, or for me it was also 73 00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:42,839 Speaker 1: like drugs and alcohol. I did not have that transition 74 00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:45,440 Speaker 1: because I didn't make it out of college. I was 75 00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:51,000 Speaker 1: court ordered to to rehab my junior year of college 76 00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:55,479 Speaker 1: because I just could not. I couldn't hack it, to 77 00:04:55,560 --> 00:05:00,600 Speaker 1: be honest, it was really hard. It was first taste 78 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:06,680 Speaker 1: of freedom from like a pretty strict household, and I 79 00:05:06,760 --> 00:05:12,480 Speaker 1: was struggling with mental health issues which were undiagnosed properly 80 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:15,240 Speaker 1: at the time. I know now I have O c D, 81 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:21,360 Speaker 1: I have PTSD, and so I think, like anybody else, 82 00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:25,520 Speaker 1: if you're walking around with untreated mental disorder and you're 83 00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:30,440 Speaker 1: drinking all the time and you're misusing your drugs, um 84 00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:33,680 Speaker 1: my antidepressants clearly were not working properly because it was 85 00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:37,200 Speaker 1: either not taking them you know, every day, or I 86 00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:39,640 Speaker 1: was drinking most of the time so that they weren't 87 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:42,600 Speaker 1: really working. And then I was also taking benzos for 88 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:45,120 Speaker 1: panic attacks because I was getting a lot of panic attacks, 89 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:50,120 Speaker 1: and any combination obviously of of benzos and alcohol is 90 00:05:50,680 --> 00:05:54,000 Speaker 1: no buyo. So I was just like the blackout queen, 91 00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:58,760 Speaker 1: like I don't recollect most of my college experience until 92 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:02,479 Speaker 1: you know, standing in the courtroom, I remember in the 93 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:05,240 Speaker 1: dress that I had bought to go to UM like 94 00:06:05,279 --> 00:06:08,320 Speaker 1: a horse race, because I didn't end up getting getting 95 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:10,000 Speaker 1: to the horse race because it wasn't allowed end because 96 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:12,320 Speaker 1: I was too drunk. So I was like, I'm never 97 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:14,160 Speaker 1: going to get to wear this dress. And then I'm like, oh, 98 00:06:14,279 --> 00:06:21,360 Speaker 1: just kidding, I need a nice dress for court. So yeah, right, 99 00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:23,679 Speaker 1: I'm like, damn it, this is such a cute dress 100 00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:29,279 Speaker 1: to what a waste of audience? UM. But then I 101 00:06:29,320 --> 00:06:34,480 Speaker 1: went out and this was two thousand fifteen. And I 102 00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:37,440 Speaker 1: only say this not because it was so long ago, 103 00:06:37,520 --> 00:06:40,160 Speaker 1: but if you're in the recovery community, a lot has 104 00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:44,720 Speaker 1: changed in the last seven years, and so I had 105 00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:47,800 Speaker 1: kind of my first taste. And I've done outpatient programs before, 106 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:50,919 Speaker 1: but I had never done like a full intensive inpatient. 107 00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:54,560 Speaker 1: So I did that for thirty days, and I wish 108 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:59,520 Speaker 1: I had taken it more seriously, but I didn't. And 109 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:03,280 Speaker 1: you know, we went to a meetings and I got 110 00:07:03,279 --> 00:07:05,440 Speaker 1: to meet other young sober people because I was in 111 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:10,000 Speaker 1: Los Angeles, which has a really good young sober like 112 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:14,480 Speaker 1: alcoholics anonymous community. So the plant there, I always say, 113 00:07:14,520 --> 00:07:17,560 Speaker 1: like the seed was definitely planted, but it still took 114 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:20,720 Speaker 1: me another I would say, about a year of what 115 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:26,800 Speaker 1: is now called sober curiosity two make that final decision 116 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:31,520 Speaker 1: like Okay, this really isn't going to work because obviously 117 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:34,400 Speaker 1: going to rehab, like I had to tell myself, okay, 118 00:07:34,440 --> 00:07:37,720 Speaker 1: well you're not a normal drinker, because normal drinkers don't 119 00:07:37,760 --> 00:07:41,320 Speaker 1: go to rehab. But I was still trying to find 120 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:44,200 Speaker 1: ways to, you know, kind of get out of it, 121 00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:47,280 Speaker 1: like oh, well, you know, you just have a dual diagnosis, 122 00:07:47,320 --> 00:07:50,400 Speaker 1: so it's really more your mental illness. Or well, I 123 00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:52,960 Speaker 1: got clean, but then I was like, well, I'm not 124 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:56,600 Speaker 1: taking drugs anymore, so I can probably drink right. And 125 00:07:56,960 --> 00:08:00,880 Speaker 1: even though a lot of situations didn't like they used 126 00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:03,880 Speaker 1: to because I wasn't taking drugs anymore, I was still 127 00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:07,440 Speaker 1: drinking to self medicate. I was still drinking for the 128 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:11,920 Speaker 1: wrong reasons. And so I think, just like with anything else, 129 00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:15,040 Speaker 1: if your intention is to escape your situation, then you 130 00:08:15,040 --> 00:08:22,040 Speaker 1: shouldn't be doing it. And so finally, after like I said, 131 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:24,880 Speaker 1: about a year of coming in and out of the rooms, 132 00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:27,600 Speaker 1: dating another addict, kind of getting a taste of my 133 00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:31,080 Speaker 1: own medicine, being in a really volatile relationship with that person, 134 00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:35,760 Speaker 1: and just looking at my life and being so young 135 00:08:35,800 --> 00:08:38,400 Speaker 1: I was twenty three and being like, is this really 136 00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:40,400 Speaker 1: what I want to do with the rest of my life, 137 00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:45,600 Speaker 1: Like live in the middle of like nowhere, California and 138 00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:49,720 Speaker 1: be a waitress and be dating somebody who's terrible to me. 139 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:53,680 Speaker 1: When I was literally in pre med and had Lacrosse 140 00:08:53,679 --> 00:08:57,000 Speaker 1: scholarships and you know, went to a top engineering school, 141 00:08:57,600 --> 00:09:01,480 Speaker 1: and I'd thrown all of it away for nothing. And 142 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:05,679 Speaker 1: so I had that kind of enlightened moment of like, 143 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:07,800 Speaker 1: all right, Kaylee, you have two paths. You can keep 144 00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:10,599 Speaker 1: going down this path and you can overdose again, or 145 00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:14,040 Speaker 1: you can end up in a trunk, or you can 146 00:09:14,080 --> 00:09:16,800 Speaker 1: get your ass back to a meeting and take this 147 00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:19,640 Speaker 1: seriously and see what happens. And so I did that, 148 00:09:20,240 --> 00:09:25,040 Speaker 1: and that was a little over six years ago. Okay, 149 00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:28,200 Speaker 1: so that was the journey to getting what you would 150 00:09:28,200 --> 00:09:31,880 Speaker 1: call sober. I'm assuming right, you quit? Did you quit everything? 151 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:37,040 Speaker 1: Like cold turkey, no drugs, no alcohol. Yeah. So for 152 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:39,920 Speaker 1: a period like three and a half years, I was 153 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:44,680 Speaker 1: completely absinate, okay, um so, and like I said, I 154 00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:48,160 Speaker 1: got sober in in the room. So for probably about 155 00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:51,880 Speaker 1: two years. The first two years of my recovery were 156 00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:55,920 Speaker 1: in traditional programming, and so I was very strict about 157 00:09:56,840 --> 00:10:00,960 Speaker 1: nothing like I was taking my antidepressants. Um. But this 158 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:04,680 Speaker 1: again I say with the timeline because at that time, 159 00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:09,439 Speaker 1: at least in the in the L a a A Circle, 160 00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:12,360 Speaker 1: I had some people tell me that I wasn't really 161 00:10:12,360 --> 00:10:15,720 Speaker 1: sober because I was taking that medication. And I know 162 00:10:15,880 --> 00:10:20,079 Speaker 1: now it's different, like there's a lot more openness in 163 00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:22,360 Speaker 1: that community to that, which I think is just amazing. 164 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:25,640 Speaker 1: But at that time it was something I was really 165 00:10:25,640 --> 00:10:27,760 Speaker 1: struggling with because I was still really having a hard 166 00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:31,600 Speaker 1: time with my panic attacks and with my like compulsions 167 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:36,920 Speaker 1: and stuff, and I really wanted to be fully sober, 168 00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:39,760 Speaker 1: you know, whatever that meant. But then later on I 169 00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:44,280 Speaker 1: had to really kind of design my own pathway to 170 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:47,160 Speaker 1: recovery because I was like, well, this box that they 171 00:10:47,160 --> 00:10:48,920 Speaker 1: want me to fit and is not going to work 172 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:50,880 Speaker 1: for me. I'm not going to be able to heal 173 00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:52,720 Speaker 1: a hundred percent, I'm not going to be able to 174 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:56,480 Speaker 1: live the life that I want to live, um on 175 00:10:56,600 --> 00:10:59,280 Speaker 1: their terms. So I kind of had to create my 176 00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:02,880 Speaker 1: own term. And so that's how kind of fast forward now. 177 00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:07,240 Speaker 1: I truthfully don't really identify as anything. I just tell 178 00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:12,040 Speaker 1: people I don't drink. I think it's not really anybody's business. Um. 179 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:16,800 Speaker 1: But really the term soberish came from It's it's the 180 00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:19,600 Speaker 1: name of my book, and it's really just it's it's 181 00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:23,319 Speaker 1: supposed to be a little bit ironic, um, with just 182 00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:25,880 Speaker 1: this idea of like how are we in the year 183 00:11:27,920 --> 00:11:31,680 Speaker 1: and we still have such a binary view of sobriety 184 00:11:31,760 --> 00:11:37,239 Speaker 1: and recovery when everything else has gray areas and multiple 185 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:40,240 Speaker 1: selections of things you can identify as whatever you want 186 00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:44,000 Speaker 1: to be. But then in this one area we've chosen 187 00:11:44,080 --> 00:11:48,160 Speaker 1: that you have to be this or you're not it 188 00:11:48,280 --> 00:11:52,960 Speaker 1: at all, And that just doesn't seem accurate to me. Yeah, 189 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:54,960 Speaker 1: it's a hard one, you know. Like, as I was 190 00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:57,640 Speaker 1: researching for this podcast and kind of reading a lot 191 00:11:57,720 --> 00:12:01,040 Speaker 1: about the soberish world, and I've talked a lot about 192 00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:03,280 Speaker 1: on here about being sober curious. I didn't even know 193 00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:06,000 Speaker 1: there was anything for it when I went on that journey, 194 00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:09,400 Speaker 1: and UM, for me, it was just like I was 195 00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:11,160 Speaker 1: out of place in my life. I really needed a 196 00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:14,680 Speaker 1: clear head. And so to me, I was like, I 197 00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:17,960 Speaker 1: have to remove alcohol from this equation right now. And 198 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:20,360 Speaker 1: then I just kept going and so and then I 199 00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:23,199 Speaker 1: realized a lot of people were going through that same thing. 200 00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 1: And it seems like maybe the pandemic did bring some 201 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:32,640 Speaker 1: things forward for a lot of people. UM, and the 202 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:37,040 Speaker 1: d s M has now I've switched the terminology from 203 00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:42,480 Speaker 1: alcoholic alcohol use disorder, Is that right, am? I? And 204 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:46,160 Speaker 1: so there's all these different things happening that are maybe 205 00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:49,360 Speaker 1: making people start to have different conversations around what we 206 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:53,040 Speaker 1: used to refer to as alcoholism. I don't really still 207 00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:55,320 Speaker 1: know where to file all this stuff. I grew up 208 00:12:55,320 --> 00:13:00,360 Speaker 1: in a recoversehold, and so a lot of that is 209 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:03,480 Speaker 1: pretty black and white, because what and what I've learned 210 00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:07,160 Speaker 1: about addiction is that if it's not black and white, well, 211 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:10,920 Speaker 1: you know, like people who have that kind of minds 212 00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:13,000 Speaker 1: that are are in the throes of that kind of 213 00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:18,880 Speaker 1: medicating talk themselves out of anything. Right, It's like a 214 00:13:18,920 --> 00:13:24,080 Speaker 1: spiritual disease. It's a mental emotional um problem. I know, 215 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:26,400 Speaker 1: diseases also being questioned as a words. It's like, I 216 00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:29,240 Speaker 1: don't even talk about it. It's hard right now. Um. 217 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:34,439 Speaker 1: But because those things are all pretty black and white. 218 00:13:34,440 --> 00:13:37,319 Speaker 1: To get sober and to get like you're distorted, thinking, 219 00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:41,640 Speaker 1: cleared up, and all of those things, it's very interesting 220 00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:43,200 Speaker 1: for me to think about it in a different way 221 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:44,920 Speaker 1: where it can be a little more fluid or like 222 00:13:44,920 --> 00:13:47,640 Speaker 1: it's on a scale. And how do you kind of 223 00:13:47,679 --> 00:13:51,120 Speaker 1: like talk to people about that, like someone who maybe 224 00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:52,959 Speaker 1: has been in the place you were when you went 225 00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:55,880 Speaker 1: to rehab and just from not in a good place 226 00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:59,199 Speaker 1: of having a good relationship with alcohol or drugs, Like 227 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:01,680 Speaker 1: they're not going to be like, hey, let me quit. 228 00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:04,880 Speaker 1: You know, that's not fun. It's not fun to stop 229 00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:09,920 Speaker 1: any of this stuff. No, And I think, you know, 230 00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:13,800 Speaker 1: like you said, the term sober curious, like Ruby Warrington 231 00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:18,040 Speaker 1: kind of you know coin that, but so many of 232 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:20,440 Speaker 1: us went through that phase without even knowing what it 233 00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:24,240 Speaker 1: was because, like you said, I don't know any former 234 00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:29,280 Speaker 1: recovering I'll caholic, addict, you know, substance abuse user, whatever 235 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:32,280 Speaker 1: you want to identify as. Who was like I'm just 236 00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:36,240 Speaker 1: gonna stop, and then that was the story because if 237 00:14:36,280 --> 00:14:38,880 Speaker 1: you if you can do that right, then it's probably 238 00:14:38,920 --> 00:14:41,840 Speaker 1: that you didn't actually have a problem. And that's kind 239 00:14:41,880 --> 00:14:46,520 Speaker 1: of the narration that I want to bring forward. And 240 00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:50,400 Speaker 1: I think people get a little bit confused because I've 241 00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:53,880 Speaker 1: had people comment on even the fact like joints so 242 00:14:54,040 --> 00:14:57,280 Speaker 1: versus very new, like I literally be launched August first, 243 00:14:57,800 --> 00:15:02,600 Speaker 1: so in and that that term too, Like I kind 244 00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:06,560 Speaker 1: of came up with it because it felt like for 245 00:15:06,640 --> 00:15:10,560 Speaker 1: me personally, my I call it just my recovery because 246 00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:14,120 Speaker 1: that's how I see it instead of using you know, 247 00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:20,400 Speaker 1: like a sobriety or absinence or I'll call use disorder, etcetera. Um. 248 00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:23,480 Speaker 1: You know, I I overall look at it as like 249 00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:26,320 Speaker 1: this is my recovery journey because for me, like there's 250 00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:29,560 Speaker 1: so many other pieces outside of my alcohol used disorder 251 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:32,280 Speaker 1: and my substance a used disorder. You know, there's an 252 00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:37,200 Speaker 1: eating disorder in there, there's mental health in there, there's trauma. UM. 253 00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:39,720 Speaker 1: So I think to simplify it down to like one thing, 254 00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:42,640 Speaker 1: especially when we all know like it, alcohol is not 255 00:15:42,760 --> 00:15:48,280 Speaker 1: what the problem is. It's the way that we think. UM, 256 00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:51,920 Speaker 1: So why would I just you know, claim this one thing? Yeah? 257 00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:55,840 Speaker 1: Will you help me kind of understand a little more 258 00:15:55,880 --> 00:16:01,400 Speaker 1: between the new d s M UH definition of alcohol 259 00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:05,200 Speaker 1: use disorder and then the difference between that and alcoholism. 260 00:16:05,320 --> 00:16:07,800 Speaker 1: And I think maybe the listeners probably don't understand either. 261 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:11,680 Speaker 1: I didn't even realize it was official until today, So 262 00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:15,000 Speaker 1: you understand this. I've heard this conversation a little bit, 263 00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:17,880 Speaker 1: but I want to know more. So what is alcohol 264 00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:23,640 Speaker 1: use disorder? So really what the d s M. And 265 00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:25,320 Speaker 1: for anybody who doesn't know what the d s M 266 00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:30,120 Speaker 1: five that's just the diagnostic manual that Americans use UM 267 00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:34,800 Speaker 1: for mental health disorders. So like your psychiatrist or psychologist UM, 268 00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:39,080 Speaker 1: they use this manual to diagnose you UM. And it's 269 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:43,000 Speaker 1: updated every couple of years. And in the most recent 270 00:16:43,080 --> 00:16:45,840 Speaker 1: one it was changed, and it actually might have been 271 00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:49,480 Speaker 1: changed in four I'd have to double check. But what 272 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:57,160 Speaker 1: was once considered like the correct terminology for alcoholism. It 273 00:16:57,200 --> 00:17:01,320 Speaker 1: was just alcoholism. Now it's called call use disorder or 274 00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:08,760 Speaker 1: substance abuse disorder for substances And really, what's why this 275 00:17:08,840 --> 00:17:11,280 Speaker 1: is such a big deal. And why it's such a 276 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:16,160 Speaker 1: positive change, in my opinion, is because it puts alcohol 277 00:17:16,240 --> 00:17:21,359 Speaker 1: use disorder formerly alcoholism on a spectrum. So when you 278 00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:24,399 Speaker 1: think of the word alcoholism, I think a lot of 279 00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:27,680 Speaker 1: people just automatically think like someone who's addicted alcohol, which 280 00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:31,399 Speaker 1: is also not true even for that term in itself. 281 00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:34,639 Speaker 1: Like I identified as an alcoholic for two years, and 282 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:38,240 Speaker 1: I never had a physical dependency on alcohol. I did 283 00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:41,040 Speaker 1: have an emotional dependency on alcohol, and I mixed it 284 00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:44,160 Speaker 1: with other things, but I was I was addicted to drugs, 285 00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:48,280 Speaker 1: not alcohol. So it gets really confusing, right when you 286 00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:51,880 Speaker 1: start mixing like, well, is it addicted or dependent or 287 00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:54,119 Speaker 1: you know this or that, and at the end of 288 00:17:54,119 --> 00:17:56,200 Speaker 1: the day, like it's just whatever gets your foot on 289 00:17:56,240 --> 00:18:01,280 Speaker 1: the door, right. So, and why raanging it to a disorder, 290 00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:03,760 Speaker 1: I think is helpful is because you're putting it on 291 00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:07,640 Speaker 1: a spectrum in the same way autism is on a spectrum. Right, 292 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:12,120 Speaker 1: You're now saying, well, this person who's coming in, so 293 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:14,440 Speaker 1: like let's say the gray are age drinker. Right. And 294 00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:16,280 Speaker 1: another kind of new term that has come around in 295 00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:20,160 Speaker 1: the last couple of years, which is somebody who maybe 296 00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:22,320 Speaker 1: they have a been drinking problem. So maybe you know, 297 00:18:22,359 --> 00:18:24,600 Speaker 1: they don't drink on the weekdays, but they go way 298 00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:26,440 Speaker 1: too hard on the weekends and they always have that 299 00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:30,760 Speaker 1: nasty hangover and they're making poor decisions and it's directly 300 00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:34,359 Speaker 1: impacting their health. Um, but it's not bad enough for 301 00:18:34,359 --> 00:18:37,879 Speaker 1: anybody to be like, hey, you need to go to rehab. Well, also, 302 00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:41,879 Speaker 1: that's so acceptable in our exactly. I mean, it's basically 303 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:44,840 Speaker 1: how everyone I know drinks. And so it's this like 304 00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:48,440 Speaker 1: really weird thing where you're like, wait, something doesn't feel right, 305 00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:51,040 Speaker 1: but then you see everyone else around you doing it, 306 00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:53,880 Speaker 1: and so it doesn't seem like, you know, I'm doing 307 00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:56,919 Speaker 1: air quotes right now. But an issue like this is 308 00:18:56,960 --> 00:19:00,119 Speaker 1: just how people drink. Well, that's why it's so dangerous 309 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:05,760 Speaker 1: because when society tells us that something is normal or okay, 310 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:08,600 Speaker 1: we just kind of say okay and then we keep going. 311 00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:11,000 Speaker 1: Or like you said, when everybody else is doing it, 312 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:14,960 Speaker 1: then it must be okay. But we've done plenty of 313 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:18,640 Speaker 1: fun up things this society. We've had slaves, we've had 314 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:23,119 Speaker 1: heroin on the shelves, like, we've you know, done terrible 315 00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:26,280 Speaker 1: things to gay people. Like so let's not sit here 316 00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:28,840 Speaker 1: and say like, we make really great decisions and we're 317 00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:36,080 Speaker 1: always right because we're absolutely not. What alcohol use disorder 318 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:40,920 Speaker 1: does is it opens up this fold for Okay, there's 319 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:43,479 Speaker 1: all different kinds of people who can have a problem 320 00:19:43,480 --> 00:19:47,919 Speaker 1: with drinking. It can be extremely severe, which is alcohol dependent, right, 321 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:50,360 Speaker 1: kind of what you think of as the traditional alcoholic. 322 00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:53,879 Speaker 1: It could be someone who has a gray area drinking problem, um, 323 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:57,000 Speaker 1: or it could be just somebody who is kind of 324 00:19:57,040 --> 00:20:00,280 Speaker 1: teetering on having you know, one or two glasses more 325 00:20:00,359 --> 00:20:03,159 Speaker 1: than they should a day. But we all have to 326 00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:06,000 Speaker 1: remember where unique individuals, so like your rock bottom in 327 00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:08,120 Speaker 1: my rock bottom are going to be different, and one 328 00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:10,320 Speaker 1: person could get one d U I and be like, 329 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:14,160 Speaker 1: I'm absolutely done. I cannot believe I did that. And 330 00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:16,240 Speaker 1: I know other people who have left the like left 331 00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:17,879 Speaker 1: their baby at a crack house, and that wasn't even 332 00:20:17,920 --> 00:20:21,399 Speaker 1: the rock bottom, you know. So we can't just assume, well, 333 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:27,840 Speaker 1: if it gets this bad, you know, then or I 334 00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:29,679 Speaker 1: have to wait for it to get this bad, because 335 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:31,840 Speaker 1: my bad in your bad are going to be different. 336 00:20:32,119 --> 00:20:36,199 Speaker 1: I mean, I've done horrible things, unspeakable things that I've 337 00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:40,160 Speaker 1: definitely spoken about, but um, I'm pretty open about my 338 00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:44,160 Speaker 1: my my journey, but you would I would have liked 339 00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:46,760 Speaker 1: to think in the past that any of those things 340 00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:49,800 Speaker 1: would have stopped me, and they absolutely did not. But 341 00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:53,000 Speaker 1: for a lot of other people who to me, don't 342 00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:55,919 Speaker 1: have mental health issues, who don't have the trauma that 343 00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:58,600 Speaker 1: I do, who weren't brought up in the environment I have, 344 00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:03,600 Speaker 1: maybe they had better cope skills, maybe they had better parenting. Uh, 345 00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:08,040 Speaker 1: you know, maybe they're not predisposed to alcohol or you know, 346 00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:12,040 Speaker 1: drug dependency. They're probably going to handle the situation differently, 347 00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:14,679 Speaker 1: you know. So it's kind of like you just can't. 348 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:19,600 Speaker 1: We're also unique, and so to just try and pigeonhole 349 00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:22,119 Speaker 1: everybody in to just say well, you were there, are this, 350 00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:25,560 Speaker 1: or you're not, it makes it easier to go. You know, 351 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:29,359 Speaker 1: you're on this scale, you're mild, moderate, or severe, And 352 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:31,119 Speaker 1: how we're going to treat it is going to be 353 00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:36,040 Speaker 1: based on that. So and the way that I watch 354 00:21:36,119 --> 00:21:38,880 Speaker 1: this workshop that a friend of mine, Dr Natalie did, 355 00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:42,240 Speaker 1: and it helped me, really I thought of it in 356 00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:45,480 Speaker 1: a totally different way because when we think now of like, 357 00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:47,200 Speaker 1: what's the first thing you want to tell somebody who 358 00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:50,120 Speaker 1: has a drinking problem, Well, you need to go to rehab, right, 359 00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:53,679 Speaker 1: Like that's usually the first thing that's out of people's mouths. 360 00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:56,720 Speaker 1: But the way that she explains it is, because everybody 361 00:21:56,760 --> 00:21:59,280 Speaker 1: is so different, what we really need to do is 362 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:01,080 Speaker 1: start from the body him and go up. So the 363 00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:03,680 Speaker 1: first one would be like peer support, and then after 364 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:06,040 Speaker 1: that would be a therapist, and then after that would 365 00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:09,359 Speaker 1: be an outpatient program, and then an intense intensive outpatient 366 00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:12,960 Speaker 1: and then after that would be in patient sober living, 367 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:14,920 Speaker 1: et cetera. So it's kind of like you should start 368 00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:16,840 Speaker 1: from the bottom and see what works for you and 369 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:19,879 Speaker 1: then add more as you need it, versus going to 370 00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:23,439 Speaker 1: the most intense thing, freaking people out who don't need 371 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:28,280 Speaker 1: to be there, and then possibly pushing them away. And 372 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:30,280 Speaker 1: it's just I've talked to so many kind of gray 373 00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:33,680 Speaker 1: area drinkers, people who got sober for the healthy reasons, 374 00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:37,240 Speaker 1: people who got sober after one bad night, and I 375 00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:39,000 Speaker 1: think in the past I kind of maybe would have 376 00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:41,600 Speaker 1: snubbed them, like that's all it took for you, you know, 377 00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:45,080 Speaker 1: like you've had really bad hangovers. I'm like, I've literally 378 00:22:45,119 --> 00:22:49,679 Speaker 1: almost been debt, you know, multiple times. But who is 379 00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:52,320 Speaker 1: it for me to kind of get keep you know, 380 00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:54,400 Speaker 1: if that's what's going to get you to the door, 381 00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:57,360 Speaker 1: then welcome, please come in, Like we should be so 382 00:22:57,440 --> 00:23:00,880 Speaker 1: stoked as people and recovery to have more people want 383 00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:02,760 Speaker 1: to come and see what we're doing. And that's kind 384 00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:05,080 Speaker 1: of how I'm seeing it, is like this opens up 385 00:23:05,119 --> 00:23:07,960 Speaker 1: the door from like a little crack to like a 386 00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:14,119 Speaker 1: much wider, more inclusive environment and community. And yeah, maybe 387 00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:17,280 Speaker 1: some people think that we're watering it down or you know, 388 00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:20,639 Speaker 1: now it's not going to be taken as seriously, but 389 00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:22,800 Speaker 1: the truth in the matter is there's always going to 390 00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:26,000 Speaker 1: be a space for people who have severe alcohol us disorder. 391 00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:28,239 Speaker 1: There's always gonna be rehabs, there's always going to be 392 00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:31,760 Speaker 1: a a and smart recovery and traditional programming and things 393 00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:34,240 Speaker 1: like that. We're not taking any of those things away. 394 00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:37,760 Speaker 1: We're just adding in new communities for other people. So 395 00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:39,879 Speaker 1: it doesn't make sense to me why people are getting 396 00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:42,840 Speaker 1: upset about it when it's like nothing is being taken 397 00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:46,160 Speaker 1: away from anybody. We're just making more room for other 398 00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:51,359 Speaker 1: people who, you know, if the difference between them getting 399 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:54,520 Speaker 1: better and them not getting better is that they don't 400 00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:59,240 Speaker 1: want to identify as an alcoholic who fucking cares, but 401 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:03,240 Speaker 1: as we know it. Whether it's in whether you want 402 00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:06,160 Speaker 1: to call it a disease or disorder, the truth still 403 00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:09,560 Speaker 1: remains that it's progressive. It's not going to get better, right, 404 00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:13,040 Speaker 1: so if you're actively drinking or actively using and not 405 00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:16,520 Speaker 1: getting treatment, it will only get worse. And so the 406 00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:19,600 Speaker 1: way I see it is if people are gray area drinking, 407 00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:23,400 Speaker 1: ben shrinking anything you want to call it, right before 408 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:25,800 Speaker 1: they get to severe alcohol US disorder and they want 409 00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:29,840 Speaker 1: to stop, that's awesome because then we're in prevention mode 410 00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:32,760 Speaker 1: rather than treatment road. And it's a lot easier to 411 00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:36,119 Speaker 1: prevent somebody from doing something than it is to treat 412 00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:39,399 Speaker 1: a problem that's already happened, right, like catching a vase 413 00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:44,840 Speaker 1: versus fixing a broken vase. Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. I'm 414 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:48,520 Speaker 1: processing all of this. I can't say I'm fully on board. 415 00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:51,400 Speaker 1: I think it's like in this is you know, everyone's 416 00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:53,520 Speaker 1: open to their own opinions about this stuff, which I 417 00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:58,800 Speaker 1: think is the interesting piece. I think what and I'm 418 00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:00,760 Speaker 1: wondering if maybe this is some of the line of 419 00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:02,719 Speaker 1: the You said you'd get a little bit of negative 420 00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:05,359 Speaker 1: feedback sometimes, and I'm curious what that would be, because 421 00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:09,960 Speaker 1: when I'm hearing it I think the slippery slope with 422 00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:13,760 Speaker 1: alcohol used disorder, I guess would be I'm getting used 423 00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:17,440 Speaker 1: to saying that instead of alcoholism um and any sort 424 00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:22,000 Speaker 1: of addiction or codependency. As I said, it's sort of 425 00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:25,240 Speaker 1: dynamic that could be called that, Like our fall under 426 00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:30,439 Speaker 1: these these umbrellas is that none of us want to 427 00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:33,159 Speaker 1: get to those places, Like nobody wants to hit a 428 00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:35,840 Speaker 1: rock bottom, right, and then nobody really wants to have 429 00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:40,400 Speaker 1: to do the work to recover it's And even if 430 00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:44,000 Speaker 1: you remove the substance, like you remove alcohol, you remove whatever, 431 00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:48,439 Speaker 1: the emotional work that follows is a lifelong process and 432 00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:52,520 Speaker 1: is hard as shit, like for me. You know, people 433 00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:55,000 Speaker 1: are always like, oh, god, well he's an alcoholic, Like 434 00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:57,159 Speaker 1: if someone's been sober for a really long time, like 435 00:25:57,200 --> 00:25:59,199 Speaker 1: they have the most fucked up problems. And I'm like, well, 436 00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:02,359 Speaker 1: if he's working a recovery program of some kind, he's 437 00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:05,840 Speaker 1: actually the I'm the most courageous person in this whole room, 438 00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:08,080 Speaker 1: And I like have the most respect for those people 439 00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:11,200 Speaker 1: because they're doing the work. And as humans, I think 440 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:14,960 Speaker 1: we want to avoid pain at all costs and so 441 00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:19,359 Speaker 1: putting ourselves with all of these options, like I don't 442 00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:22,760 Speaker 1: I don't look at like the recovery of twelve Step 443 00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:25,320 Speaker 1: as easy by any means. And so if I was 444 00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:28,600 Speaker 1: given all these other options, I probably would have tried 445 00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:31,199 Speaker 1: every single other thing, but like there was something that 446 00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:33,680 Speaker 1: I needed to rest in. My my stuff is not alcoholism, 447 00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:39,760 Speaker 1: but like um, my codependency needed the process of twelve 448 00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:43,600 Speaker 1: Step because I was I couldn't stop myself from like 449 00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:47,160 Speaker 1: abandoning myself, you know. And I still the work that 450 00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:51,680 Speaker 1: program for those reasons. And so anyway, I do all 451 00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:53,520 Speaker 1: the other stuff too, and so I can as a 452 00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:56,359 Speaker 1: human look at it and go I wouldn't be anywhere 453 00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:58,679 Speaker 1: without the other spiritual aspects of the things that I 454 00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:01,399 Speaker 1: do and the deeper dive. And for me, it is 455 00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:05,800 Speaker 1: a journey of like healing the brokenness inside or whatever 456 00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:08,399 Speaker 1: it is that I'm trying to mask, whatever pain that 457 00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:13,240 Speaker 1: is um And as you know you said already, it's 458 00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:16,640 Speaker 1: it's progressive. And so if I don't continue with a 459 00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:19,880 Speaker 1: certain process, I'm probably going to fall back into old 460 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:22,760 Speaker 1: patterns at some point, because life is painful and life 461 00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:25,720 Speaker 1: is hard, and if I give myself the options of 462 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:28,560 Speaker 1: certain things, like I'll still try to go back to 463 00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:31,480 Speaker 1: the thing that I knew didn't work, probably, do you 464 00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:33,800 Speaker 1: know what I'm saying? Like, I think it's just such 465 00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:36,919 Speaker 1: a fine line, and I get nervous. I get nervous 466 00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:40,120 Speaker 1: even talking about this publicly to like, you know, if 467 00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:44,520 Speaker 1: there's someone that is really struggling and really in the 468 00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:46,960 Speaker 1: throes of what I would look at as an addiction, 469 00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:49,520 Speaker 1: I think you would be like, oh, yeah, well maybe 470 00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:53,600 Speaker 1: I'll just be slight, I'll cut back. But you can't 471 00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:57,480 Speaker 1: if you're in that place, Like it's like physically impossible 472 00:27:57,520 --> 00:27:59,879 Speaker 1: for a lot of people. So is that some of 473 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:02,120 Speaker 1: a feedback you get from people or what? What are 474 00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:05,720 Speaker 1: you hearing? Like, what are the arguments against this kind 475 00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:09,760 Speaker 1: of movement? Yeah, I think you're kind of you know, 476 00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:11,439 Speaker 1: hitting it right on the head, which is just the 477 00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:15,160 Speaker 1: idea that it's too much of a slippery slope, um, 478 00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:19,280 Speaker 1: you know, and that harm reduction doesn't work. But it 479 00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:23,639 Speaker 1: absolutely like there's too much evidence and people who are 480 00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:26,800 Speaker 1: alive today because of harm reduction to say that it 481 00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:29,240 Speaker 1: doesn't work. And that's why other countries are doing it 482 00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:32,560 Speaker 1: and why I don't know why we haven't done more 483 00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:37,560 Speaker 1: of it. I'd love to see it. Um, But once again, 484 00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:41,480 Speaker 1: it comes back to the individual, right Like, so there 485 00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:45,880 Speaker 1: are so many people out there that do need one accidents, Like, 486 00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:47,880 Speaker 1: it's just not going to work for them to do 487 00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:51,400 Speaker 1: anything else, and so they should be practicing abtinence and 488 00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:55,360 Speaker 1: a program that promotes that, and there are so many 489 00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:58,160 Speaker 1: options out there now, like and I think that's amazing, 490 00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:01,320 Speaker 1: But there's also a people who don't need to be 491 00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:07,000 Speaker 1: and figuring out where you fit on that is your 492 00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:09,600 Speaker 1: own journey, right So, and that's not something I think 493 00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:15,240 Speaker 1: anybody should take lightly. Um, I think you know, it's 494 00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:17,680 Speaker 1: also a matter of what's available to you, right, Like, 495 00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:19,840 Speaker 1: it's a privilege to be able to have a therapist 496 00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:22,440 Speaker 1: and to be able to have you know, medical insurance. 497 00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:26,640 Speaker 1: Not everybody has that or have access that something with medication, 498 00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:29,800 Speaker 1: you know. So there are things I'd love to be 499 00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:31,200 Speaker 1: able to throw out. You know, you should go on 500 00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:33,320 Speaker 1: all these retreats or you know, it really bothers me 501 00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:38,040 Speaker 1: and I read stuff or you know, people are saying, 502 00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:39,520 Speaker 1: go do this, go to that, and I'm like that 503 00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:42,960 Speaker 1: sounds great, but like maybe only like the top five 504 00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:45,560 Speaker 1: percent of the world has access to any of that. 505 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:49,600 Speaker 1: So why are we not giving people more resources that 506 00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:52,520 Speaker 1: are available to everybody, and a lot of that just 507 00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:56,560 Speaker 1: looks like information, and I think just giving people other 508 00:29:56,720 --> 00:30:01,320 Speaker 1: options and other communities. Once again, um, when I was 509 00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:05,080 Speaker 1: working at Reframe and we originally were just an absentence track, 510 00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:07,400 Speaker 1: and why we decided to open it up to the 511 00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:09,920 Speaker 1: harm reduction and the cutback track was because what we 512 00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:15,800 Speaker 1: realized was, you know, and when you look back and 513 00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:17,600 Speaker 1: I'm sure you had this, but I had to cut 514 00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:21,000 Speaker 1: back phase, you know, it didn't work, but I still 515 00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:23,840 Speaker 1: had the phase. But if I had had a place 516 00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:26,880 Speaker 1: to go to cut back, where I could you know, 517 00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:30,920 Speaker 1: count my drinks and have a meeting specifically for other 518 00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:35,640 Speaker 1: people cutting back and have that community support, I probably 519 00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:38,120 Speaker 1: would have gotten in the door faster. Because what a 520 00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:41,120 Speaker 1: lot of people on our cutback track realizes. For the 521 00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:44,080 Speaker 1: people that it does work, they usually are on the 522 00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:47,120 Speaker 1: milder side of the alcohous disorder. Right, So there are 523 00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:50,280 Speaker 1: people who, like you said, maybe their pandemic drinking just 524 00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:54,520 Speaker 1: got really at hand. Maybe they don't handle stressful situations 525 00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:57,000 Speaker 1: very well and they need to learn new coping skills. 526 00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:00,160 Speaker 1: And after they've learned new coping skills, they no longer 527 00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:03,240 Speaker 1: reach for alcohol as that vice. It just kind of 528 00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:07,000 Speaker 1: goes back to being you know, something you shouldn't do 529 00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:10,560 Speaker 1: very often anyways, right, Like it's it's not good for you, period. 530 00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:14,720 Speaker 1: But I'm not anti alcohol because I think we're all 531 00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:19,720 Speaker 1: consenting adults. You should be able to do whatever you want. Um. 532 00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:23,440 Speaker 1: But what we realized, and what I realized because I 533 00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:25,360 Speaker 1: was running a lot of those meetings in the beginning, 534 00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:29,280 Speaker 1: was it took having that space for a lot of 535 00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:32,760 Speaker 1: people to realize, oh, this doesn't work for me, or 536 00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:36,600 Speaker 1: and I would say to people, well, hey, keep going. 537 00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:38,560 Speaker 1: You know, I don't want you to give up, because 538 00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:40,320 Speaker 1: the worst thing I think you can tell somebody is 539 00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:43,120 Speaker 1: that they don't belong or that this you know they 540 00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:48,280 Speaker 1: shouldn't be here, or you know, you don't want to discourage. 541 00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:51,160 Speaker 1: You always want to encourage. So how can I be 542 00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:54,600 Speaker 1: more positive in this situation to keep this person wanting 543 00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:57,280 Speaker 1: to keep trying, because it's we know, it's a really 544 00:31:57,320 --> 00:32:00,120 Speaker 1: hard process, and when you're not, when you're not going 545 00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:02,080 Speaker 1: up for yourself in the way that you want to be, 546 00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:05,800 Speaker 1: it's really discouraging. So I'll say something like, you know, 547 00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:09,560 Speaker 1: moderation works for a lot of people, but it also 548 00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:11,760 Speaker 1: doesn't work for a lot of people. And how you 549 00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:15,760 Speaker 1: figure out if that's you or not is by trying, right, 550 00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:17,520 Speaker 1: And they they talk about it in the Big Book 551 00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:19,880 Speaker 1: to write, like the Big Book kind of says if 552 00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:21,560 Speaker 1: you can go out and drink like a gentleman, go 553 00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:24,800 Speaker 1: you know, and then and then you can and so 554 00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:27,240 Speaker 1: people do. They just don't talk about it because they 555 00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:28,600 Speaker 1: don't come back to the room. So how are we 556 00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:31,920 Speaker 1: going to know about it? Um? But then you have 557 00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:34,360 Speaker 1: that other group of people, and then I would say 558 00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:38,480 Speaker 1: to them, hey, literally made the name. Hey, Robert, I 559 00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:41,400 Speaker 1: know you've been on the cutback track now for you know, 560 00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:44,320 Speaker 1: three months, and you're still having a really hard time. 561 00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:47,720 Speaker 1: Let's set a timeline. Let's do like another month. We're 562 00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:49,880 Speaker 1: going to keep on the goals that we've been setting. 563 00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:54,080 Speaker 1: And if it's still not working, let's reassess and let's 564 00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:56,960 Speaker 1: do a dry month, you know, and and and if 565 00:32:57,000 --> 00:33:00,200 Speaker 1: you slip, that's okay too. It's not about consecutive time time. 566 00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:04,840 Speaker 1: It's about doing as much as possible in that thirty days. 567 00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:07,480 Speaker 1: So you know what, like let's just aim and once 568 00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:09,920 Speaker 1: again going back to old school, like let's do this 569 00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:11,720 Speaker 1: one day at a time. Let's see how much time 570 00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:13,640 Speaker 1: we can get under a belt. Let's see how many 571 00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:16,640 Speaker 1: benefits we can feel from drinking less during that time. 572 00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:19,120 Speaker 1: And let's just see how much better we feel. And 573 00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:21,760 Speaker 1: a lot of people find, like I did in the beginning, 574 00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:25,840 Speaker 1: it's just easier to be absinent. Like I was, like, 575 00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:28,320 Speaker 1: there's I don't feel like I'm you know, breaking all 576 00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:30,840 Speaker 1: these rules consistently, and like, you know, it was just 577 00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:37,040 Speaker 1: I think Emily Paulson Um, a good friend of mine, 578 00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:39,120 Speaker 1: set at best, which was just you know, when I 579 00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:41,920 Speaker 1: was controlling my drinking, I wasn't enjoying it. And when 580 00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:44,560 Speaker 1: I was enjoying my drinking, I was not in control 581 00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:51,000 Speaker 1: of it. And so that to me kind of I 582 00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:54,840 Speaker 1: say that to them, just you know, give yourself the 583 00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:58,760 Speaker 1: open idea that maybe you will need absinence, maybe not forever, 584 00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:02,920 Speaker 1: but whatever you're going through that you're using alcohol to 585 00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:06,600 Speaker 1: either self medicaid or cope with. Um, you need to 586 00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:10,040 Speaker 1: take a look at it. Because it's kind of like 587 00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:14,160 Speaker 1: the untethered soul talks about with chakras. You know, when 588 00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:16,840 Speaker 1: we have good and bad experiences, you know, we have 589 00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:19,080 Speaker 1: them kind of moved through us. Like imagine this little 590 00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:21,640 Speaker 1: like little light of a little ball of light come 591 00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:24,239 Speaker 1: through you. But if you're keeping them all inside of you, 592 00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:26,520 Speaker 1: not only are you blocking the way for anything to 593 00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:30,200 Speaker 1: get through, you're they're also expanding. So now you have 594 00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:33,120 Speaker 1: all these traumas, you have all these negative experiences or 595 00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:36,520 Speaker 1: even even good ones just kind of chilling your body, 596 00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:40,000 Speaker 1: which is also why your your body manifests that your 597 00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:43,719 Speaker 1: mind is manifesting it. You know, you're probably super uncomfortable 598 00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:45,920 Speaker 1: all the time and you're wondering why. It's because you 599 00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:48,760 Speaker 1: have all the ship. And then the last thing you 600 00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:51,000 Speaker 1: need to be able to do is process all of this, 601 00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:54,000 Speaker 1: and you can't do that when you're drinking because or 602 00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:59,920 Speaker 1: using because or really like anything, right even exactly if 603 00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:05,000 Speaker 1: sucking whatever, Yeah, exactly, you are blocked. You're literally like 604 00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:08,640 Speaker 1: making a damn and you cannot process. And that has 605 00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:13,520 Speaker 1: been like scientifically proven, like you cannot process emotions and 606 00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:16,560 Speaker 1: traumas when you're still using. And so I just tell people, 607 00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:19,839 Speaker 1: you know what, give yourself time to like empty out, 608 00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:23,480 Speaker 1: you know, and then reevaluate. And most people find that 609 00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:26,680 Speaker 1: kind of like you said, they empty it out or 610 00:35:26,719 --> 00:35:28,279 Speaker 1: they begin to and they're like, woh, I feel so 611 00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:31,680 Speaker 1: much better, or even I'm just sleeping better, my mood 612 00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:34,759 Speaker 1: is better, you know, I'm losing weight. Whatever it is 613 00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:37,800 Speaker 1: that kind of starts to spark their interest in sobriety, 614 00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:40,640 Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden they're like, wow, I 615 00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:42,640 Speaker 1: was planning on doing the three days you said, Caleb, 616 00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:45,600 Speaker 1: but now I'm six months sober, you know, or something 617 00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:50,400 Speaker 1: like that. So that positive reinforcement is so important because 618 00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:57,400 Speaker 1: I think in other ways we might tell those people like, well, 619 00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:00,399 Speaker 1: you're you're doing it wrong right, or you can't do that. 620 00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:04,280 Speaker 1: And I know if you tell me I can't do something, 621 00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:07,239 Speaker 1: I'm gonna really go and try and do it right, 622 00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:09,960 Speaker 1: especially people who are prone to addiction. So like, the 623 00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:12,000 Speaker 1: last thing you want to tell somebody is that they 624 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:14,480 Speaker 1: can't do something right. You have to kind of use 625 00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:17,359 Speaker 1: their verse psychology on them, say Okay, well, you know, 626 00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:20,000 Speaker 1: let's try this, and if it doesn't work, let's try this, 627 00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:24,000 Speaker 1: you know. But it's always staying positive because it's just 628 00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:28,440 Speaker 1: kind of what we've learned in the last thirty years 629 00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:33,680 Speaker 1: with the positive psychology movement, and behavioral psychology tells us 630 00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:38,040 Speaker 1: that punishment doesn't really work right, like on children, Like 631 00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:42,160 Speaker 1: beating kids doesn't work, you know, yelling at people doesn't work. 632 00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:45,520 Speaker 1: Calling people names doesn't work. You know, time out like 633 00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:50,080 Speaker 1: those things they might work a little, but usually explaining 634 00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:52,879 Speaker 1: to somebody like, hey, you know, this is what's going 635 00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:54,719 Speaker 1: this is what you're doing wrong. Have you thought about 636 00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:57,399 Speaker 1: doing it this way? Or you know, it's like it's 637 00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:01,080 Speaker 1: like talking to a child. Like once you give somebody 638 00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:04,480 Speaker 1: a chance and you give them positive reinforcement, it works 639 00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:08,120 Speaker 1: so much better and you see them thrive and they're 640 00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:11,719 Speaker 1: not just so like ashamed of themselves and disengaged from 641 00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:14,160 Speaker 1: what's going on, and they really start to open up 642 00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:16,640 Speaker 1: and get kind of excited about what's going on. And 643 00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:19,799 Speaker 1: so it's just kind of this whole movement of having 644 00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:22,400 Speaker 1: more of a growth mindset and just having more of 645 00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:25,359 Speaker 1: a positive outlook on this because like you said, there's 646 00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:30,160 Speaker 1: always gonna people be people like myself who I could 647 00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:31,879 Speaker 1: never go back to drinking the way that I did 648 00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:36,359 Speaker 1: or I have to be clean like it just and 649 00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:39,200 Speaker 1: also I don't have any desire to go back to using, 650 00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:43,799 Speaker 1: you know, um, but over the years and what where 651 00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:47,160 Speaker 1: the kind of idea of sobersh comes in is for 652 00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:50,399 Speaker 1: some people, not even me, Like I don't use marijuana, 653 00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:53,560 Speaker 1: but I do use micro dosing, and for me, that's 654 00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:58,680 Speaker 1: significantly helped my depression. Um So it's not that I'm 655 00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:02,439 Speaker 1: recreationally using rooms every day, you know, I'm using such 656 00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:05,080 Speaker 1: a small dose that it literally affects me, you know, 657 00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:08,319 Speaker 1: above the neck, so to speak, less than a cup 658 00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:11,520 Speaker 1: of coffee. Like I'm not feeling high, I'm not feeling 659 00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:14,759 Speaker 1: you fork. It's like almost the same thing for me 660 00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:18,479 Speaker 1: as taking my inntidepressants. But the difference I was able 661 00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:21,120 Speaker 1: to see after a couple of weeks of taking it 662 00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:25,920 Speaker 1: was significant. Um My mood, how my outlook on things, 663 00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:30,200 Speaker 1: just my general foundational level of depression was. I couldn't 664 00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:33,239 Speaker 1: believe it, and I've been so averse to it for 665 00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:36,600 Speaker 1: so many years, and finally I was just like, fuck it, 666 00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:39,000 Speaker 1: I'm going to try it. I'm so glad I did. 667 00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:43,719 Speaker 1: But in a traditional sense, you know, does that really 668 00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:46,279 Speaker 1: make me clean now that I'm taking it, But I'm 669 00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:48,960 Speaker 1: also not taking it recreationally. And then we could go 670 00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:51,799 Speaker 1: back to the really really gold, good old argument of 671 00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:55,239 Speaker 1: well what about cigarettes and coffee, because tobacco is the 672 00:38:55,320 --> 00:39:00,800 Speaker 1: number one, you know killer of people, uh a ventable deaths, 673 00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:05,839 Speaker 1: and coffee absolutely gives you a buzz. You know, so 674 00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:10,640 Speaker 1: we're out here picking and choosing, right, we're like cherry picking, 675 00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:13,240 Speaker 1: like what we can and can't do or what somebody 676 00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:16,080 Speaker 1: else can and can't do in their recovery. When I 677 00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:18,840 Speaker 1: know a lot of people who California sober so to 678 00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:23,640 Speaker 1: speak right works for them. But with chronic pain, people 679 00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:26,680 Speaker 1: who it helps them with anxiety, and once again it 680 00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:30,360 Speaker 1: goes by cont reduction. As somebody you know, recovering benzo addict, 681 00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:34,200 Speaker 1: I would rather see somebody using weed to help their 682 00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:38,040 Speaker 1: anxiety than benzos because that's gonna that's going to kill 683 00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:41,520 Speaker 1: them way faster, right or alcohol. So it's kind of 684 00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:45,920 Speaker 1: it's being more realistic with a lot of people who 685 00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:48,640 Speaker 1: are saying a lot of people don't want to be absent, 686 00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:51,080 Speaker 1: and so if you're going to give them no choice 687 00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:53,719 Speaker 1: at all, then they're going to die. But if you're 688 00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:56,520 Speaker 1: going to give them some wiggle room and some harm reduction, 689 00:39:57,120 --> 00:40:00,880 Speaker 1: then they have a chance of maybe open up to 690 00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:04,240 Speaker 1: abstinence because they don't see it as this really intense, 691 00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:08,480 Speaker 1: stuffy like you know, cognitive distortion and be you're just 692 00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:11,040 Speaker 1: gonna save more lives this way, and you need that's 693 00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:12,960 Speaker 1: kind of at the end of the day, what should 694 00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:15,400 Speaker 1: be the most important thing is like are we saving 695 00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:22,680 Speaker 1: lives or are we not? I think that that that 696 00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:25,400 Speaker 1: right there, to me, would be the point of any 697 00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:28,080 Speaker 1: of this movement is not even to like put down 698 00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:32,359 Speaker 1: any version of healing that works for people. It's like, 699 00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:35,520 Speaker 1: I think in a lot of cases, you know, people 700 00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:38,480 Speaker 1: do need the extreme version and that might be the 701 00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:40,600 Speaker 1: only thing that works. The other thing I know about 702 00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:42,920 Speaker 1: anything like this that we and we've talked about this 703 00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:46,360 Speaker 1: a little bit, but like alcohol, like I believe it 704 00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:49,160 Speaker 1: is just a symptom of something. And so that's like 705 00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:52,080 Speaker 1: when people say, like you're an alcoholic, well, they're using 706 00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:55,840 Speaker 1: alcohol to medicate what you described like some form of 707 00:40:55,880 --> 00:41:00,000 Speaker 1: emotional pain, whether it's trauma, whether it's a dysfunctional family system, 708 00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:02,359 Speaker 1: and they came from and they're holding you know, like 709 00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:05,239 Speaker 1: that's being held in our bodies whatever. And so if 710 00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:08,399 Speaker 1: you're not dealing with that, you have to find medicators. 711 00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:16,240 Speaker 1: And again it's like it's all the same, whether it's drugs, alcohol, sex, gambling, relationships, codependency. 712 00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:22,920 Speaker 1: It's like we're literally trying to medicate away the internal pain. 713 00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:27,880 Speaker 1: And so all of the healing processes or recovery or 714 00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:32,439 Speaker 1: treatment or whatever. Really, to me, if you're targeting that, 715 00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:35,440 Speaker 1: it doesn't matter what it is like, if you're looking 716 00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:39,880 Speaker 1: at that and you're actually addressing the root problem. Unfortunately, 717 00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:41,839 Speaker 1: I do feel like that's what gets missed a lot 718 00:41:41,840 --> 00:41:44,759 Speaker 1: in our society, is not addressing the root. And so 719 00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:47,160 Speaker 1: you could sit in twelve steps, you could sit in 720 00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:50,759 Speaker 1: eight hundred different kinds of intensives or rehab and never 721 00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:53,440 Speaker 1: actually grow if you're only focusing on I have to 722 00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:57,439 Speaker 1: stop drinking like you do for a minute. But that's 723 00:41:57,520 --> 00:42:00,239 Speaker 1: just like the symptom, what's the root? So in a way, 724 00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:03,680 Speaker 1: I think that it's great to give people multiple options. 725 00:42:03,719 --> 00:42:06,040 Speaker 1: Like I said, I don't identify as an alcoholic or 726 00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:10,520 Speaker 1: someone with alcoholic disorder. I was going through a major 727 00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:14,880 Speaker 1: shift in my life and I needed some trauma healing, 728 00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:18,760 Speaker 1: and um I decided to remove anything that I could 729 00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:22,759 Speaker 1: that would help me push those feelings back down. And 730 00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:28,760 Speaker 1: it was so fucking uncomfortable. Yeah, of course I wanted 731 00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:31,759 Speaker 1: to reach for a drink or you know, whatever it was. 732 00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:34,200 Speaker 1: But what I what I've realized and what I think 733 00:42:34,239 --> 00:42:36,560 Speaker 1: I hear you saying a lot about these apps and 734 00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:39,279 Speaker 1: kind of the movements that you're talking about is when 735 00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:41,759 Speaker 1: you really just get curious with yourself, like what's the 736 00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:44,200 Speaker 1: moment you're reaching for the drink, what are you actually feeling? 737 00:42:44,480 --> 00:42:46,920 Speaker 1: What it was like, what's coming up? What are you 738 00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:50,480 Speaker 1: trying to run from? And those ways to healing is 739 00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:53,359 Speaker 1: to really start recognizing those patterns because it's really not 740 00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:57,040 Speaker 1: about whatever the drug of choices, that's just trying to 741 00:42:57,080 --> 00:43:00,600 Speaker 1: cover it exactly. Yeah. I always used to it. Like 742 00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:02,120 Speaker 1: what I would say to people is like, you know, 743 00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:05,480 Speaker 1: when I was a drinker, Like my drink of choice 744 00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:07,920 Speaker 1: was like a triple gen and tonic. Okay, that's disgusting, 745 00:43:08,239 --> 00:43:11,000 Speaker 1: Like you know, it doesn't taste good at all, Like 746 00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:14,279 Speaker 1: there's at no point was I like craving a gen 747 00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:17,000 Speaker 1: and tonic triple like and this is like, well gin, okay, 748 00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:20,920 Speaker 1: we're not even talking good gen. So you know something 749 00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:23,400 Speaker 1: we explained a lot when I was at Reframe, and 750 00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:25,200 Speaker 1: I think that was helpful is like what you just 751 00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:27,560 Speaker 1: said is like what really is a craving? Right, Like 752 00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:29,759 Speaker 1: what we say, I'm craving a drug, I'm craving I 753 00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:31,799 Speaker 1: need to talk to this person, I need tough sex, 754 00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:34,480 Speaker 1: I need to do whatever. But what you're really doing 755 00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:37,800 Speaker 1: is you're trying to escape from whatever you are actually feeling, 756 00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:42,880 Speaker 1: which is maybe because anxiety, sadness, loneliness, anger, you know, 757 00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:48,319 Speaker 1: one of those foundational primary emotions, fear, rejection, any of it. 758 00:43:48,760 --> 00:43:50,959 Speaker 1: The only way you're going to not feel that way 759 00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:54,839 Speaker 1: long term is sitting with it and really digesting it 760 00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:57,200 Speaker 1: and once kind kind of letting it, allowing it to 761 00:43:57,239 --> 00:44:01,560 Speaker 1: pass through. Otherwise, yeah, you might, you know, temporarily kind 762 00:44:01,560 --> 00:44:04,600 Speaker 1: of numbing out with doing what you're gonna go do, 763 00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:07,400 Speaker 1: but we all know that you're just gonna feel worse 764 00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:12,120 Speaker 1: afterwards and then it just multiplies itself, so you know, 765 00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:15,520 Speaker 1: it's disavoidance. I think we as a society do with 766 00:44:15,560 --> 00:44:19,560 Speaker 1: so much instant gratification and you know, like pain events 767 00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:22,640 Speaker 1: in general, we're just like you're It's like funny to 768 00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:25,240 Speaker 1: me when people say, like how are you? You're good right, 769 00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:27,799 Speaker 1: and I'm like, wait, do you really want to know 770 00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:30,279 Speaker 1: how I am? Or like like are we even really 771 00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:33,239 Speaker 1: asking each other those real questions? It's just like a formality, 772 00:44:33,320 --> 00:44:36,480 Speaker 1: you know, and like absolutely we're so uncomfortable with the 773 00:44:36,520 --> 00:44:39,600 Speaker 1: real answers from people. Oh I love I love being 774 00:44:39,680 --> 00:44:43,840 Speaker 1: like so straightforward with people, and I love the discomfort 775 00:44:43,880 --> 00:44:46,480 Speaker 1: it gives them because to your point, right, I'm like, 776 00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:49,240 Speaker 1: I'm just that person, like I want to know your trauma, 777 00:44:49,520 --> 00:44:52,600 Speaker 1: Like let's talk, like, let's actually talk and connect as 778 00:44:53,080 --> 00:44:56,359 Speaker 1: And I think it's because I was so disconnected for 779 00:44:56,440 --> 00:44:59,640 Speaker 1: so long that I crave real connection. I don't want 780 00:44:59,640 --> 00:45:01,560 Speaker 1: to talk about the weather. I don't want to talk 781 00:45:01,560 --> 00:45:04,480 Speaker 1: about pop culture. I don't care you know, how are 782 00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:07,160 Speaker 1: you exactly? If I'm asking somebody that I want to, 783 00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:09,319 Speaker 1: I want to genuinely know because I have the time 784 00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:10,880 Speaker 1: to sit down and listen for a second. I'm not 785 00:45:10,920 --> 00:45:12,160 Speaker 1: going to ask you if I don't have the time 786 00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:14,920 Speaker 1: to listen. So I kind of I would hope the 787 00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:18,360 Speaker 1: reciprocation for that person, and I make people who I 788 00:45:18,440 --> 00:45:20,080 Speaker 1: know clear if you're gonna ask me, I'm going to 789 00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:23,279 Speaker 1: tell you right, and then you know, people can take 790 00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:25,720 Speaker 1: it or leave it if it makes you uncomfortable. Once again, 791 00:45:25,760 --> 00:45:29,520 Speaker 1: you got to figure out why is that triggering to you? Right, Like, 792 00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:32,799 Speaker 1: that's your problem, that's not my problem. I'm doing me well. 793 00:45:32,840 --> 00:45:35,200 Speaker 1: I also think as a society and a culture, like 794 00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:38,080 Speaker 1: we haven't really been taught how to be intimate with 795 00:45:38,120 --> 00:45:40,920 Speaker 1: each other, and so we have such a surface relationship 796 00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:44,719 Speaker 1: with most things, with even our deepest relationships, and like 797 00:45:45,080 --> 00:45:49,680 Speaker 1: it can become really uncomfortable to be truly intimate and vulnerable. 798 00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:53,359 Speaker 1: And I do think I feel a shift happening there, 799 00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:55,719 Speaker 1: and I think, you know, these kind of conversations are 800 00:45:55,760 --> 00:45:58,560 Speaker 1: part of it. Like I think that I get nervous 801 00:45:58,640 --> 00:46:02,560 Speaker 1: having the conversation because I don't want to downplay the 802 00:46:03,120 --> 00:46:07,440 Speaker 1: negative aspects of what I've seen from it's using alcohol 803 00:46:07,560 --> 00:46:10,239 Speaker 1: or drugs or you know, the way that it can 804 00:46:10,280 --> 00:46:13,439 Speaker 1: affect lives and relationships and all of them. I grew 805 00:46:13,520 --> 00:46:16,600 Speaker 1: up in a household like that. But I do think 806 00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:19,920 Speaker 1: it's also really important to have these conversations for maybe 807 00:46:19,920 --> 00:46:23,680 Speaker 1: people who aren't that extreme on the scale, and to 808 00:46:23,840 --> 00:46:27,400 Speaker 1: just address as a culture, how we're living our lives. 809 00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:30,120 Speaker 1: Why is binge drinking the norm? Like these are the 810 00:46:30,160 --> 00:46:32,759 Speaker 1: kind of questions I started to ask the second but 811 00:46:32,840 --> 00:46:34,800 Speaker 1: I stopped drinking and I read that book Quit Like 812 00:46:34,840 --> 00:46:36,920 Speaker 1: a Woman, which I've talked about a lot on the podcast, 813 00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:39,319 Speaker 1: but like she kind of talks about that, like in 814 00:46:39,360 --> 00:46:46,160 Speaker 1: a culture that really glamorizes and just makes binge drinking 815 00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:48,480 Speaker 1: the norm, it feels really weird to go to a 816 00:46:48,480 --> 00:46:52,359 Speaker 1: bar in order a water or a mobile, you know, 817 00:46:52,600 --> 00:46:55,640 Speaker 1: like people look at you like you have two heads. Yeah, 818 00:46:55,880 --> 00:47:00,439 Speaker 1: but I think society and the way things have kind 819 00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:04,319 Speaker 1: of played out, it's a it's a purposeful thing, you know, 820 00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:07,319 Speaker 1: like and I don't I won't go on thatch Field 821 00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:10,120 Speaker 1: because you know, Holly is great and it's kind of 822 00:47:10,200 --> 00:47:12,560 Speaker 1: you know, part of what I'm writing my book on 823 00:47:12,640 --> 00:47:17,160 Speaker 1: two um. But you know, big alcohol has its hand 824 00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:20,279 Speaker 1: and has its hand in a lot of different pockets, right, 825 00:47:20,320 --> 00:47:24,080 Speaker 1: So it's not going anywhere in the same way that tobacco, 826 00:47:24,680 --> 00:47:26,879 Speaker 1: you know, the anti tobacco movement was able to move 827 00:47:27,000 --> 00:47:31,200 Speaker 1: because unfortunately, and as stoked as I am to see 828 00:47:31,239 --> 00:47:34,080 Speaker 1: these big brands have zero proof stuff because it means 829 00:47:34,160 --> 00:47:37,000 Speaker 1: that it's going to get into other places quicker. I'm 830 00:47:37,040 --> 00:47:41,120 Speaker 1: also like, you won't see you won't catch me buying it, right, 831 00:47:41,200 --> 00:47:43,880 Speaker 1: Like I'll support the small businesses and the ones that 832 00:47:43,920 --> 00:47:46,879 Speaker 1: aren't owned by big alcohol. But at the same time, 833 00:47:46,920 --> 00:47:52,680 Speaker 1: I also recognize that like you know, uh, Heineken, Like 834 00:47:53,160 --> 00:47:55,879 Speaker 1: I can find that at a lot of restaurants now, right, 835 00:47:56,400 --> 00:47:58,480 Speaker 1: and it's gonna be a lot harder for these smaller 836 00:47:58,520 --> 00:48:01,800 Speaker 1: brands to get into place, is versus these big names 837 00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:05,200 Speaker 1: that have way more reach and way more money. So 838 00:48:05,760 --> 00:48:08,320 Speaker 1: it kind of goes back to right, like is it harmful? 839 00:48:08,440 --> 00:48:11,000 Speaker 1: Is it helpful? Like making a deal with the devil, 840 00:48:11,040 --> 00:48:13,319 Speaker 1: you know, and just kind of realizing like, yeah, I 841 00:48:13,360 --> 00:48:16,320 Speaker 1: don't really love giving my money to big alcohol because 842 00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:18,560 Speaker 1: I see all the damage that they've done. But I 843 00:48:18,600 --> 00:48:22,440 Speaker 1: also see and I'm stoked that they're participating in this, 844 00:48:22,719 --> 00:48:25,240 Speaker 1: especially for those companies that said that they never would 845 00:48:25,320 --> 00:48:29,480 Speaker 1: and they are eating their words. And then to also know, well, 846 00:48:29,800 --> 00:48:32,879 Speaker 1: on a bigger scale, you know, like I said, if 847 00:48:32,920 --> 00:48:36,479 Speaker 1: it enables more people to you know, go wow, there's 848 00:48:36,480 --> 00:48:38,040 Speaker 1: a zero proof this, so I'm going to try that 849 00:48:38,120 --> 00:48:40,880 Speaker 1: instead of drinking, then that's a win, you know. And 850 00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:43,920 Speaker 1: it's kind of we have to realize we don't live 851 00:48:43,960 --> 00:48:45,960 Speaker 1: in a perfect world where we're gonna get everything that 852 00:48:46,000 --> 00:48:48,359 Speaker 1: we want and everyone's going to be sober and we're 853 00:48:48,360 --> 00:48:50,600 Speaker 1: gonna have another prohibition that's just not going to happen. 854 00:48:51,200 --> 00:48:55,680 Speaker 1: But we can give people the informed consent, which to 855 00:48:55,800 --> 00:48:59,959 Speaker 1: me is having more policies where there's actual warning label 856 00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:02,600 Speaker 1: on alcohol that give you real information that are not 857 00:49:02,719 --> 00:49:05,879 Speaker 1: the Surgeon General's warnings of like you know, don't drink 858 00:49:05,880 --> 00:49:09,799 Speaker 1: when you're pregnant and like this may you know, give 859 00:49:09,840 --> 00:49:11,920 Speaker 1: you not even give you cancer. I think it's like 860 00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:16,160 Speaker 1: this may like it's whatever it is. It's like literally 861 00:49:16,200 --> 00:49:19,160 Speaker 1: from the nine eighties and it's not updated at all. 862 00:49:19,800 --> 00:49:23,640 Speaker 1: Literally even called the local, like even called California to 863 00:49:23,640 --> 00:49:25,600 Speaker 1: ask them about it, and they gave me some like 864 00:49:25,640 --> 00:49:30,239 Speaker 1: bullshit answer of course, but what But I think a 865 00:49:30,280 --> 00:49:34,319 Speaker 1: lot of like cancer societies and other lobbyists for the 866 00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:36,600 Speaker 1: good are doing are they're trying to do that, you know, 867 00:49:36,640 --> 00:49:39,080 Speaker 1: get nutrition labels on, get it so that it can't 868 00:49:39,120 --> 00:49:41,319 Speaker 1: be advertised in the way it was because you look 869 00:49:41,320 --> 00:49:43,799 Speaker 1: at it. They basically took and ripped the playbook right 870 00:49:43,800 --> 00:49:47,839 Speaker 1: out of Big Tobacco's you know they're Big book and 871 00:49:47,920 --> 00:49:50,960 Speaker 1: just went with it when Tobacco kind of went away, this, 872 00:49:51,200 --> 00:49:53,560 Speaker 1: oh it's gotta be you want to be sexy, you 873 00:49:53,560 --> 00:49:55,400 Speaker 1: have to have a drink. You know, you want to 874 00:49:55,400 --> 00:49:58,480 Speaker 1: be cool, you need to have a drink. Like you 875 00:49:58,520 --> 00:49:59,959 Speaker 1: want to have fun, you need to have a drink. 876 00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:03,000 Speaker 1: Like those are the exact same things that cigarettes were 877 00:50:03,000 --> 00:50:06,680 Speaker 1: being pushed on. And then they're like but also like 878 00:50:06,760 --> 00:50:09,160 Speaker 1: drink responsibly. We're not going to tell you what that means. 879 00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:12,920 Speaker 1: But that's our disclaimer. We're not going to tell you 880 00:50:12,960 --> 00:50:15,520 Speaker 1: that this causes severn different types of cancers, or that 881 00:50:15,600 --> 00:50:19,640 Speaker 1: it's highly addictive substance, or that we're not actually regulated 882 00:50:19,640 --> 00:50:22,120 Speaker 1: by the f d A. You know, none of that is. 883 00:50:23,000 --> 00:50:26,520 Speaker 1: It's just glamorized. But once again, like for me, I 884 00:50:26,520 --> 00:50:29,640 Speaker 1: studied consumer psychology, So this is like, this is what 885 00:50:29,680 --> 00:50:35,000 Speaker 1: advertisers do. Like it's from an advertising standpoint, this is 886 00:50:35,040 --> 00:50:39,560 Speaker 1: a home run. Well they killed it. But as a consumer, 887 00:50:40,200 --> 00:50:43,759 Speaker 1: we have been made to believe that something is kind 888 00:50:43,760 --> 00:50:46,759 Speaker 1: of an essential part of our lives that isn't and 889 00:50:46,800 --> 00:50:51,520 Speaker 1: that it's also less harmful than it actually is. And 890 00:50:51,600 --> 00:50:56,359 Speaker 1: so what I also aim for with these movements and 891 00:50:56,400 --> 00:51:01,200 Speaker 1: with more people asking questions, is that we get more 892 00:51:01,239 --> 00:51:05,440 Speaker 1: answers and that you know that it's not allowed to 893 00:51:05,560 --> 00:51:08,600 Speaker 1: be served everywhere, you know, and that you can only 894 00:51:08,600 --> 00:51:10,880 Speaker 1: go to the alcohol store to get alcohol. You know, 895 00:51:10,960 --> 00:51:13,640 Speaker 1: the fact that it was considered an essential business during 896 00:51:13,640 --> 00:51:17,239 Speaker 1: the pandemic really showed you where the government's priorities were. 897 00:51:17,840 --> 00:51:22,960 Speaker 1: Because the the argument there was, well, because the alcoholics 898 00:51:23,040 --> 00:51:25,399 Speaker 1: quote unquote right, like, we can't shut them down because 899 00:51:25,440 --> 00:51:29,200 Speaker 1: then the alcoholics will go into seizures and die like, well, 900 00:51:29,400 --> 00:51:31,560 Speaker 1: you know, the truth in the matter is, out of 901 00:51:31,640 --> 00:51:36,760 Speaker 1: every alcoholic, only one in thirty people are actually alcohol dependent. 902 00:51:36,840 --> 00:51:41,200 Speaker 1: The rest are just emotionally dependent, been drinking, grayer drinking, etcetera. Right, 903 00:51:41,640 --> 00:51:46,000 Speaker 1: So you're keeping a business open for one out of 904 00:51:46,000 --> 00:51:50,560 Speaker 1: every thirty people, and also forgetting to mention that alcohol 905 00:51:50,560 --> 00:51:53,640 Speaker 1: is still available at pharmacies and grocery stores, which are 906 00:51:53,640 --> 00:51:59,040 Speaker 1: also essential businesses that are also open. So m M, 907 00:52:00,280 --> 00:52:08,319 Speaker 1: you know totally, and I think these Yeah, I'm just 908 00:52:08,360 --> 00:52:10,680 Speaker 1: I'm happy these kind of conversations are hapn'ty even when 909 00:52:10,680 --> 00:52:13,000 Speaker 1: you mentioned the zero proof stuff, and like, I'm seeing 910 00:52:13,000 --> 00:52:15,359 Speaker 1: that on a lot of different menus. I think that's 911 00:52:15,360 --> 00:52:18,800 Speaker 1: exciting because for me, one of the things I realized 912 00:52:18,800 --> 00:52:22,440 Speaker 1: when I just completely cut it out was that half 913 00:52:22,480 --> 00:52:26,080 Speaker 1: of the the like process for me was just the 914 00:52:26,200 --> 00:52:29,600 Speaker 1: habit of moving something to my mouth. And so if 915 00:52:29,640 --> 00:52:31,719 Speaker 1: I go out and I have a mocktail, most of 916 00:52:31,719 --> 00:52:34,640 Speaker 1: the time, I still feel included or I can still 917 00:52:34,680 --> 00:52:37,680 Speaker 1: do social aspects, and like, I think it's just an 918 00:52:37,680 --> 00:52:39,920 Speaker 1: interesting concept to be like, hey, you don't have to 919 00:52:39,960 --> 00:52:42,800 Speaker 1: have four drinks, Like you could have a drink and 920 00:52:42,840 --> 00:52:46,520 Speaker 1: then have a mocktail, like just introducing the ideas because 921 00:52:46,520 --> 00:52:50,080 Speaker 1: we have more options. I'm also a big proponent of 922 00:52:50,320 --> 00:52:54,920 Speaker 1: um psychedelics and healing, and I love the psilocybin conversation 923 00:52:55,000 --> 00:52:58,040 Speaker 1: happening as well, and so um that's a whole another 924 00:52:58,080 --> 00:53:00,560 Speaker 1: podcast we'll have to do one day. We will. But 925 00:53:00,960 --> 00:53:03,560 Speaker 1: I mean I was so closed off to it, like 926 00:53:04,640 --> 00:53:07,960 Speaker 1: I really a very cut and dry background. Yeah, but 927 00:53:08,080 --> 00:53:11,000 Speaker 1: even the n A stuff, right, like I was, I 928 00:53:11,000 --> 00:53:13,800 Speaker 1: was taught that's a no no, like that's the game itself. 929 00:53:14,400 --> 00:53:16,239 Speaker 1: Well I wasn't. I think I had like three and 930 00:53:16,239 --> 00:53:18,839 Speaker 1: a half years of sobriety before I even had my 931 00:53:18,880 --> 00:53:22,800 Speaker 1: first n A beer. And once again, for some people 932 00:53:24,080 --> 00:53:28,720 Speaker 1: a good idea, but for other people it's a great, 933 00:53:29,320 --> 00:53:32,040 Speaker 1: you know, added tool to their tool kit. And so 934 00:53:33,560 --> 00:53:36,239 Speaker 1: I kind of you know, now I have all these 935 00:53:36,239 --> 00:53:39,080 Speaker 1: brands send me stuff, and you know, I think because 936 00:53:39,120 --> 00:53:41,879 Speaker 1: my sobriety was just water and sell surface so long, 937 00:53:41,920 --> 00:53:44,880 Speaker 1: that's still what I prefer. So you know, I'll do 938 00:53:44,920 --> 00:53:47,759 Speaker 1: it for special occasion, right when an out, I'll order one, 939 00:53:47,800 --> 00:53:50,040 Speaker 1: because it does like it's hard as a grown up 940 00:53:50,320 --> 00:53:52,920 Speaker 1: to order a fucking Chirley temple or a coat or 941 00:53:53,320 --> 00:53:56,400 Speaker 1: you know, like I'm drinking a club set inline, but 942 00:53:56,440 --> 00:53:58,279 Speaker 1: that tastes terrible. That just tastes as bad as a 943 00:53:58,360 --> 00:54:00,799 Speaker 1: gin and tonic. Like you know, so I I think 944 00:54:00,800 --> 00:54:04,200 Speaker 1: it's so cool. Like never in my wildest sober dreams 945 00:54:04,200 --> 00:54:08,920 Speaker 1: that I think that sobriety was going to be an industry. 946 00:54:09,400 --> 00:54:11,600 Speaker 1: And I think once again people are worried it's gonna 947 00:54:11,680 --> 00:54:13,680 Speaker 1: water it down. But I think we have to kind 948 00:54:13,680 --> 00:54:16,400 Speaker 1: of flip the script and be like, once again, like 949 00:54:17,280 --> 00:54:20,000 Speaker 1: we are informing more people, were opening up the door 950 00:54:20,120 --> 00:54:24,160 Speaker 1: for more people, and the more people who are sober 951 00:54:24,200 --> 00:54:27,239 Speaker 1: curious or who drink even less, Like you said, that's 952 00:54:27,280 --> 00:54:29,359 Speaker 1: a win. If if you can get somebody to have 953 00:54:29,400 --> 00:54:31,759 Speaker 1: two beers and two n A beers instead of four 954 00:54:31,760 --> 00:54:34,959 Speaker 1: regular beers, that's better for them, that's better for you. 955 00:54:35,040 --> 00:54:37,600 Speaker 1: Like I was in a relationship like that that the 956 00:54:37,640 --> 00:54:40,279 Speaker 1: person was cutting back and they did that. I call 957 00:54:40,360 --> 00:54:43,080 Speaker 1: it like drink stacking. And that's one of the one 958 00:54:43,120 --> 00:54:44,600 Speaker 1: of the tools that I would give to like our 959 00:54:44,640 --> 00:54:47,719 Speaker 1: cutback users, that reframe. Would you know, I'd say, like 960 00:54:47,760 --> 00:54:50,400 Speaker 1: set a timer, really focus on how much you're in 961 00:54:50,480 --> 00:54:54,160 Speaker 1: taking and how much time, and then switch that for 962 00:54:54,520 --> 00:54:56,040 Speaker 1: you know, an n a beer and a drink, your 963 00:54:56,080 --> 00:54:58,640 Speaker 1: body doesn't really know the difference. And a lot of 964 00:54:58,640 --> 00:55:02,800 Speaker 1: the time, like for the person who's at home cooking 965 00:55:03,320 --> 00:55:06,040 Speaker 1: or cleaning, and that's kind of part of their ritual. 966 00:55:06,560 --> 00:55:08,720 Speaker 1: Even just having that glass in your hand and having 967 00:55:08,760 --> 00:55:12,360 Speaker 1: like self certain berries in it instead, right, or cracking 968 00:55:12,400 --> 00:55:14,719 Speaker 1: open that beer after a motorcycle ride or while you're 969 00:55:14,760 --> 00:55:18,840 Speaker 1: watching a football game. Your brain doesn't know the difference exactly. 970 00:55:19,280 --> 00:55:25,040 Speaker 1: It's seeking dopamine. And what I really noticed and and 971 00:55:25,080 --> 00:55:27,319 Speaker 1: I think a lot of people it's helpful for them 972 00:55:27,520 --> 00:55:31,080 Speaker 1: to realize, is it's more the anticipation of the drink 973 00:55:31,239 --> 00:55:33,640 Speaker 1: or the drug or the talking that person than it 974 00:55:33,840 --> 00:55:38,840 Speaker 1: is actually doing it. Like it never actually like lived 975 00:55:38,920 --> 00:55:42,680 Speaker 1: up to the expectation, But the funnest part was always 976 00:55:42,719 --> 00:55:45,600 Speaker 1: getting ready to go out or driving to the store, 977 00:55:46,080 --> 00:55:49,479 Speaker 1: or going to get my drugs right, or getting ready 978 00:55:49,520 --> 00:55:52,840 Speaker 1: to see the person. I was always disappointed by the 979 00:55:52,880 --> 00:55:57,160 Speaker 1: actual event. But it's and and that's how we get 980 00:55:57,200 --> 00:55:59,680 Speaker 1: addicted to things, or that's how triggers start to work too, 981 00:55:59,760 --> 00:56:03,880 Speaker 1: is we convince ourselves that the dopamine that we're feeling 982 00:56:03,960 --> 00:56:07,439 Speaker 1: from the anticipation is connected to what we're actually doing. 983 00:56:07,520 --> 00:56:10,799 Speaker 1: When in reality it's not. It's just that anticipation. So 984 00:56:10,880 --> 00:56:14,000 Speaker 1: it's how can we create that for other things we do? Now, 985 00:56:14,280 --> 00:56:16,239 Speaker 1: Now I get stoked to go to yoga, you know. 986 00:56:16,239 --> 00:56:17,719 Speaker 1: Now I get stoked to go hang out with my 987 00:56:17,800 --> 00:56:21,319 Speaker 1: friends or doing other stuff. And so it's you know, 988 00:56:21,680 --> 00:56:25,759 Speaker 1: unlearning and relearning new patterns in your brain and right 989 00:56:25,800 --> 00:56:28,400 Speaker 1: where the sala sybin or mushrooms you know, comes in. 990 00:56:28,560 --> 00:56:31,839 Speaker 1: That helps the brain do that too. Like I'm doing that. 991 00:56:32,280 --> 00:56:35,280 Speaker 1: I'm doing like e m dr therapy for some reprocessing, 992 00:56:35,400 --> 00:56:39,200 Speaker 1: and it's only making my brain soak up everything and 993 00:56:39,239 --> 00:56:42,080 Speaker 1: rewire itself a little bit faster and a little bit 994 00:56:42,080 --> 00:56:46,000 Speaker 1: more efficient. And that's a huge wind for me, you know. 995 00:56:46,160 --> 00:56:48,839 Speaker 1: So I kind of, you know, give my old self 996 00:56:48,880 --> 00:56:51,040 Speaker 1: compassion and just go. You know, I'm really glad that 997 00:56:51,239 --> 00:56:55,360 Speaker 1: I allowed myself to be open and evolved to the process. 998 00:56:55,520 --> 00:57:00,000 Speaker 1: Because if you can heal faster, if you can get 999 00:57:00,080 --> 00:57:03,600 Speaker 1: better quicker, and not in a kind of cheating way, right, 1000 00:57:03,640 --> 00:57:08,920 Speaker 1: like we're not talking like cutting corners, but if you 1001 00:57:08,960 --> 00:57:12,319 Speaker 1: can find something that works for you that allows you 1002 00:57:12,400 --> 00:57:17,080 Speaker 1: to process quicker, by all means like you can become 1003 00:57:17,080 --> 00:57:24,280 Speaker 1: a whole person faster. That's please do right. Yes, So, 1004 00:57:24,600 --> 00:57:26,240 Speaker 1: I mean I love this conversation. I feel like we 1005 00:57:26,240 --> 00:57:27,600 Speaker 1: can go on forever. I know we have to go, 1006 00:57:27,760 --> 00:57:30,600 Speaker 1: but um, I want to put the disclaimer out there. 1007 00:57:30,600 --> 00:57:33,280 Speaker 1: If you're listening, there is a difference between some of 1008 00:57:33,280 --> 00:57:35,240 Speaker 1: the stuff we're talking about and if you have you 1009 00:57:35,280 --> 00:57:37,720 Speaker 1: feel like this is something you can't think it is 1010 00:57:37,760 --> 00:57:40,400 Speaker 1: destroying your life. There are places to go for that. 1011 00:57:40,440 --> 00:57:43,000 Speaker 1: So we're not trying to discount any of that stuff either. 1012 00:57:43,520 --> 00:57:46,040 Speaker 1: And so these are just conversations to open up in 1013 00:57:46,080 --> 00:57:49,880 Speaker 1: a kind of expanded version of more healing. And that's 1014 00:57:49,920 --> 00:57:52,720 Speaker 1: that is something I fully can get behind in any capacity, 1015 00:57:52,880 --> 00:57:56,920 Speaker 1: is just giving people tools. And I think having conversations 1016 00:57:56,960 --> 00:57:59,360 Speaker 1: and us just getting way more honest with ourselves and 1017 00:57:59,440 --> 00:58:02,120 Speaker 1: with each other. Are like, there's no harm in that, 1018 00:58:02,360 --> 00:58:05,640 Speaker 1: and so that's the whole point of these conversations. And 1019 00:58:05,680 --> 00:58:07,760 Speaker 1: then we mentioned that you have a book coming out 1020 00:58:07,840 --> 00:58:11,040 Speaker 1: and so we can look for that. Ine is that 1021 00:58:11,640 --> 00:58:15,640 Speaker 1: tell us more? It should be dropping September. That's what 1022 00:58:15,720 --> 00:58:18,360 Speaker 1: we're aiming for. But the book is also called Soberish 1023 00:58:18,520 --> 00:58:21,680 Speaker 1: and the subtitle is kind of in a working but 1024 00:58:21,720 --> 00:58:25,640 Speaker 1: it's around what it's looking at now. Is um soberish, 1025 00:58:25,800 --> 00:58:30,000 Speaker 1: how to the scientific backed guide to taking your power 1026 00:58:30,000 --> 00:58:33,480 Speaker 1: back from alcohol, and so really, and why I chose 1027 00:58:33,760 --> 00:58:36,560 Speaker 1: the words soberish is the play on the word sober. Right, 1028 00:58:36,640 --> 00:58:39,440 Speaker 1: everybody kind of knows what sober means. It means to 1029 00:58:39,520 --> 00:58:44,080 Speaker 1: not drink alcohol. But like I said, there's you know, 1030 00:58:44,160 --> 00:58:47,240 Speaker 1: a whole other group of people out there who don't 1031 00:58:47,320 --> 00:58:50,040 Speaker 1: drink alcohol, who don't really feel like they fit in 1032 00:58:50,160 --> 00:58:52,680 Speaker 1: or that they get to have the title of being 1033 00:58:52,680 --> 00:58:57,320 Speaker 1: in recovery because they're not completely absentent and so or 1034 00:58:57,360 --> 00:59:01,520 Speaker 1: they're not willing right, Like maybe they're they to quit drinking, 1035 00:59:01,640 --> 00:59:03,440 Speaker 1: but they don't want to give up smoking weed, and 1036 00:59:03,520 --> 00:59:06,400 Speaker 1: so they won't do either. And so I'm trying to 1037 00:59:06,440 --> 00:59:09,400 Speaker 1: create a space and go, this is just focused on alcohol. 1038 00:59:09,520 --> 00:59:12,720 Speaker 1: We're taking our power back from alcohol. We're doing one 1039 00:59:12,760 --> 00:59:15,000 Speaker 1: thing at a time, because sometimes doing multiple things at 1040 00:59:15,040 --> 00:59:18,600 Speaker 1: a time doesn't work for people, right, And I wouldn't 1041 00:59:18,600 --> 00:59:20,400 Speaker 1: suggest like when people are like I'm gonna quitt during 1042 00:59:20,480 --> 00:59:25,880 Speaker 1: alcohol and cut out sugar, I'm like, no, let's not 1043 00:59:26,840 --> 00:59:30,640 Speaker 1: up for failure. Like, so, what the book is going 1044 00:59:30,680 --> 00:59:34,360 Speaker 1: to be about is really just in the beginning, I 1045 00:59:34,440 --> 00:59:37,080 Speaker 1: just kind of explain who I am and a little 1046 00:59:37,120 --> 00:59:40,000 Speaker 1: bit about my story and how my journey has evolved. 1047 00:59:40,600 --> 00:59:42,520 Speaker 1: I'm gonna be talking about a little bit of what 1048 00:59:42,600 --> 00:59:44,600 Speaker 1: we talked about today, which is, you know, where did 1049 00:59:44,600 --> 00:59:47,200 Speaker 1: the idea of kind of binary sobriety come from? And 1050 00:59:47,480 --> 00:59:49,600 Speaker 1: how can we make space for more people. It's not 1051 00:59:49,640 --> 00:59:54,200 Speaker 1: about making spaces smaller. It's just making more spaces, making water, 1052 00:59:54,480 --> 00:59:58,600 Speaker 1: making more watering holes, like no, no current watering holes 1053 00:59:58,640 --> 01:00:02,000 Speaker 1: will be touched in the making of new watering holes. 1054 01:00:02,040 --> 01:00:04,280 Speaker 1: Like I just want to say that, right, I just 1055 01:00:04,320 --> 01:00:07,080 Speaker 1: want to make room for more people. Um. And then 1056 01:00:07,280 --> 01:00:09,520 Speaker 1: it's really just going to be a guide And like 1057 01:00:09,560 --> 01:00:13,040 Speaker 1: I said, that's going to be focused on resources that 1058 01:00:13,080 --> 01:00:15,160 Speaker 1: are going to be available to more people. So I'm 1059 01:00:15,160 --> 01:00:17,800 Speaker 1: gonna be talking about things like cold therapy. I'm gonna 1060 01:00:17,800 --> 01:00:22,840 Speaker 1: be talking things like aroma therapy, sound therapy, things that 1061 01:00:22,880 --> 01:00:27,640 Speaker 1: are going to be super accessible to nutrition, psychology. UM. 1062 01:00:27,800 --> 01:00:30,240 Speaker 1: I've been talking to a lot of awesome experts, so 1063 01:00:30,280 --> 01:00:34,240 Speaker 1: I'm really excited. Um, it's gonna be uh something that 1064 01:00:34,280 --> 01:00:37,200 Speaker 1: you can write in. It's gonna be something interactive, So 1065 01:00:38,000 --> 01:00:39,880 Speaker 1: it's just gonna be rad and I'm hoping what people 1066 01:00:39,880 --> 01:00:43,520 Speaker 1: can take away from it is just in the beginning 1067 01:00:43,520 --> 01:00:45,400 Speaker 1: gonna be asking you know, what do you want? What 1068 01:00:45,440 --> 01:00:47,040 Speaker 1: do you want to take away from this book? Like 1069 01:00:48,000 --> 01:00:51,520 Speaker 1: how is alcohol serving your life now? And what do 1070 01:00:51,520 --> 01:00:53,920 Speaker 1: you what part do you want it to play when 1071 01:00:53,960 --> 01:00:56,080 Speaker 1: you're done, when you put this book down. And I'm 1072 01:00:56,120 --> 01:00:59,840 Speaker 1: hoping that through the resources and through the information I 1073 01:01:00,080 --> 01:01:03,920 Speaker 1: of them, and then more resources at the end, because 1074 01:01:03,960 --> 01:01:06,280 Speaker 1: I am all for making your tool k AT as 1075 01:01:06,320 --> 01:01:09,200 Speaker 1: big as possible, UM, that they can have a better 1076 01:01:09,280 --> 01:01:12,960 Speaker 1: understanding of you know, like you said, it's about asking 1077 01:01:13,000 --> 01:01:16,280 Speaker 1: the right questions. It's not am I an alcoholic or not? 1078 01:01:16,480 --> 01:01:20,240 Speaker 1: It's is alcohol serving my life in a positive way 1079 01:01:20,360 --> 01:01:25,280 Speaker 1: right now we're not? Or is alcohol benefiting me or not? 1080 01:01:25,640 --> 01:01:28,040 Speaker 1: Or is it benefiting Like I'm somebody who I look 1081 01:01:28,080 --> 01:01:30,520 Speaker 1: at my list and every year I make a goals list. 1082 01:01:30,600 --> 01:01:33,080 Speaker 1: I have my financial goals, my professional goals, and my 1083 01:01:33,120 --> 01:01:37,440 Speaker 1: personal goals on there. And one way I know how 1084 01:01:37,480 --> 01:01:41,280 Speaker 1: to reevaluate for me too, as a recovering codependent, as 1085 01:01:41,280 --> 01:01:45,520 Speaker 1: someone still currently you know, working on their eating disorder UM, 1086 01:01:45,560 --> 01:01:48,520 Speaker 1: and as somebody recovered from alcohol us disorder and substance 1087 01:01:48,520 --> 01:01:51,720 Speaker 1: abuse to supporder many and somebody in mental health, like 1088 01:01:51,720 --> 01:01:55,919 Speaker 1: I just have like a nice, smotest sport of um. 1089 01:01:55,960 --> 01:01:58,680 Speaker 1: But it's almost like a little bit of a guiding 1090 01:01:58,720 --> 01:02:01,040 Speaker 1: light for me to priority eyes because I look at 1091 01:02:01,040 --> 01:02:04,360 Speaker 1: that list and when I'm thinking about could I should 1092 01:02:04,400 --> 01:02:06,320 Speaker 1: have a drink now, or you know, should I get high? 1093 01:02:06,400 --> 01:02:09,400 Speaker 1: Or should I text my crazy ex boyfriend that literally 1094 01:02:09,440 --> 01:02:12,120 Speaker 1: like threw me out of his truck, and is it 1095 01:02:12,120 --> 01:02:14,520 Speaker 1: going to get me closer to any of these? And 1096 01:02:14,560 --> 01:02:19,040 Speaker 1: the answers now, the answers always know. So it's kind 1097 01:02:19,080 --> 01:02:24,480 Speaker 1: of creating that life for yourself, right and prioritizing and 1098 01:02:24,520 --> 01:02:29,360 Speaker 1: making goals to which alcohol or whatever substance you're struggling 1099 01:02:29,440 --> 01:02:33,560 Speaker 1: with hinders and that way, you start to prioritize and 1100 01:02:33,640 --> 01:02:36,800 Speaker 1: make your goals and other parts of your life more 1101 01:02:36,840 --> 01:02:40,200 Speaker 1: important that way, And then I think that's really when 1102 01:02:40,240 --> 01:02:43,240 Speaker 1: you can start to break the chains, when you finally go, 1103 01:02:43,320 --> 01:02:45,840 Speaker 1: you know what, this is actually more important than this, 1104 01:02:46,520 --> 01:02:49,919 Speaker 1: and I'm able to, for the first time maybe ever, 1105 01:02:50,440 --> 01:02:54,920 Speaker 1: actually step away from it and go do this and 1106 01:02:54,960 --> 01:02:57,200 Speaker 1: realize that this is really what I want long term, 1107 01:02:57,560 --> 01:03:00,320 Speaker 1: not this instant gratification that we talked about earlier, which 1108 01:03:00,360 --> 01:03:02,120 Speaker 1: is I don't want to feel this way right now. 1109 01:03:03,600 --> 01:03:06,480 Speaker 1: Let's you know whatever, smoke it out, suck it out, 1110 01:03:06,960 --> 01:03:10,720 Speaker 1: drink it. I won't drink it away. So that is 1111 01:03:10,760 --> 01:03:13,040 Speaker 1: a really big tool that I use, you know, going 1112 01:03:13,080 --> 01:03:16,320 Speaker 1: into my seventh three of recovery, that I found it 1113 01:03:17,040 --> 01:03:19,040 Speaker 1: is really helpful to just come back to myself if 1114 01:03:19,080 --> 01:03:22,439 Speaker 1: I'm ever feeling like making bad decisions, which I still 1115 01:03:22,480 --> 01:03:27,560 Speaker 1: do like absolutely imperfect human. My journey has not been consecutive. 1116 01:03:27,600 --> 01:03:32,000 Speaker 1: I've had slips without call you know, I've had slips 1117 01:03:32,000 --> 01:03:34,800 Speaker 1: with calling x Is. I've you know, had slips with 1118 01:03:35,400 --> 01:03:38,160 Speaker 1: binging and you know, all kinds of things. But for me, 1119 01:03:38,360 --> 01:03:40,520 Speaker 1: I kind of like to think of it as falling 1120 01:03:40,600 --> 01:03:43,360 Speaker 1: forward rather than backwards because I always get up and 1121 01:03:43,400 --> 01:03:47,720 Speaker 1: I always continue to move on and learn from what 1122 01:03:47,800 --> 01:03:49,880 Speaker 1: I did rather than allow it to kind of take 1123 01:03:49,920 --> 01:03:52,680 Speaker 1: me down. And I think that's when you know you're 1124 01:03:52,680 --> 01:03:55,640 Speaker 1: really in recovery and when you're really healing. Yeah, my 1125 01:03:55,760 --> 01:03:59,320 Speaker 1: dad always says, um that nothing's lost in your healing process. 1126 01:04:00,000 --> 01:04:02,040 Speaker 1: Of the things we view as mess ups or whatever, 1127 01:04:02,160 --> 01:04:05,160 Speaker 1: nothing is lost. Um. So you also have a podcast. 1128 01:04:05,160 --> 01:04:07,880 Speaker 1: It's called the Generation Dry Pod. Tell us a little 1129 01:04:07,920 --> 01:04:10,640 Speaker 1: about the podcast and where people can find it. Yes, 1130 01:04:10,880 --> 01:04:16,160 Speaker 1: and we'll be talking either UM. So The Generation Drives 1131 01:04:16,160 --> 01:04:19,040 Speaker 1: the second podcast that I've been a host for and 1132 01:04:19,160 --> 01:04:23,000 Speaker 1: I'm currently hosting it with UM. A therapist named Leah 1133 01:04:23,400 --> 01:04:26,200 Speaker 1: LEAs been on this podcast a bunch of times. Leah 1134 01:04:26,240 --> 01:04:31,280 Speaker 1: Gary Yeah so UM, she's rad and we met through Reframe. 1135 01:04:31,760 --> 01:04:34,800 Speaker 1: But it's really a kind of a niche podcast. It's 1136 01:04:35,160 --> 01:04:38,439 Speaker 1: mental health focused, but for the sober, sober ish, sober 1137 01:04:38,520 --> 01:04:41,720 Speaker 1: curious community. So we really just talk about a bunch 1138 01:04:41,760 --> 01:04:45,120 Speaker 1: of different topics. Like last week we talked about narcissistic abuse. 1139 01:04:45,600 --> 01:04:48,520 Speaker 1: The week before that, we talked about loneliness, We talked 1140 01:04:48,520 --> 01:04:50,720 Speaker 1: about boundaries, you know, we talked about things that are 1141 01:04:50,760 --> 01:04:55,480 Speaker 1: relevant to our lives UM. And we talk about personal 1142 01:04:55,520 --> 01:04:59,920 Speaker 1: experiences and then also our professional experiences UM and clinical 1143 01:05:00,040 --> 01:05:03,760 Speaker 1: viewpoints on the top on the topics. So you know, 1144 01:05:03,960 --> 01:05:09,400 Speaker 1: we're there's a lot of swearing um um and and uh, 1145 01:05:09,680 --> 01:05:11,439 Speaker 1: we just try and keep it real. And once again, 1146 01:05:11,480 --> 01:05:13,440 Speaker 1: it kind of goes back to how can we give 1147 01:05:13,480 --> 01:05:16,760 Speaker 1: people resources? How can we you know, inform the people 1148 01:05:17,480 --> 01:05:21,000 Speaker 1: UM and make it digestible, because you know, nobody wants 1149 01:05:21,000 --> 01:05:23,360 Speaker 1: to go read a peer review journal. I certainly don't. 1150 01:05:23,520 --> 01:05:27,120 Speaker 1: I read a lot of them. And for the everyday person. 1151 01:05:27,120 --> 01:05:30,720 Speaker 1: I wouldn't recommend it, but if you can listen to 1152 01:05:30,760 --> 01:05:33,200 Speaker 1: it and learn the same thing, then I think that's 1153 01:05:33,280 --> 01:05:36,400 Speaker 1: rad and I think that you're accomplishing something really good totally. 1154 01:05:37,080 --> 01:05:39,360 Speaker 1: That one's called generation dry And I will put all 1155 01:05:39,360 --> 01:05:42,920 Speaker 1: the links to um kayless stuff in the description of 1156 01:05:42,920 --> 01:05:45,560 Speaker 1: this podcast. Then on Instagram, if people want to follow 1157 01:05:46,000 --> 01:05:49,680 Speaker 1: along with the Soberish journey, where do they find that? Yeah, 1158 01:05:49,760 --> 01:05:53,840 Speaker 1: so we're just at Joined Soberish. We're on Instagram and 1159 01:05:53,840 --> 01:05:56,720 Speaker 1: we're also on TikTok Um. I'm not on the TikTok 1160 01:05:56,760 --> 01:06:00,680 Speaker 1: I have a manager because it terrifies me. You can 1161 01:06:00,720 --> 01:06:05,040 Speaker 1: find us on both, and then we are currently working 1162 01:06:05,040 --> 01:06:10,880 Speaker 1: on a platform which I'm hoping to launch next year. Amazing. Well, 1163 01:06:10,920 --> 01:06:13,360 Speaker 1: you guys go check out Kayla Kayla, thank you so 1164 01:06:13,440 --> 01:06:16,440 Speaker 1: much for being here. I mean, I'm learning so much 1165 01:06:16,440 --> 01:06:18,640 Speaker 1: about this process too, and so it's just a very 1166 01:06:18,680 --> 01:06:22,120 Speaker 1: interesting conversation to just keep having. And you guys hit 1167 01:06:22,160 --> 01:06:24,560 Speaker 1: me up with your feedback, because I think there's probably 1168 01:06:24,560 --> 01:06:26,600 Speaker 1: a lot of people who are like one, you know, 1169 01:06:26,640 --> 01:06:28,640 Speaker 1: I mean, I think we're all processing what this means 1170 01:06:28,640 --> 01:06:32,320 Speaker 1: and absolutely many changes, as you said, even since two 1171 01:06:32,320 --> 01:06:34,920 Speaker 1: thousand and sixteen, so it's a lot to take in 1172 01:06:35,040 --> 01:06:37,800 Speaker 1: and I think it's just keep asking questions and keep 1173 01:06:37,840 --> 01:06:41,600 Speaker 1: having the conversations exactly. Well, thank you so much for 1174 01:06:41,680 --> 01:06:44,960 Speaker 1: having me, and you know, I'm excited to have you 1175 01:06:45,240 --> 01:06:47,800 Speaker 1: on our podcast. Yes, you guys, check that out. I'll 1176 01:06:47,800 --> 01:06:52,520 Speaker 1: beyond generation dry sometimes soon. Yes, all right, thanks so 1177 01:06:52,600 --> 01:06:55,840 Speaker 1: much for listening. Thanks for listening to The Velvet's Edge 1178 01:06:55,840 --> 01:06:59,040 Speaker 1: podcast with Kelly Henderson, where we believe everyone has a 1179 01:06:59,040 --> 01:07:02,440 Speaker 1: little velvet and a little edge. Subscribe for more conversations 1180 01:07:02,480 --> 01:07:06,760 Speaker 1: on life, style, beauty and relationships. Search Velvet's Edge wherever 1181 01:07:06,800 --> 01:07:11,480 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. M h m hm