1 00:00:04,960 --> 00:00:08,280 Speaker 1: On this episode of Newts World. Each year, Gallup releases 2 00:00:08,320 --> 00:00:12,440 Speaker 1: a World Happiness Report. In their twenty twenty four report, 3 00:00:12,720 --> 00:00:15,840 Speaker 1: the United States is now ranked twenty third, falling from 4 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:20,360 Speaker 1: fifteenth place a year ago, with Finland, Denmark, Iceland, and 5 00:00:20,440 --> 00:00:24,160 Speaker 1: Sweden ranked as the top four happiest countries in the world. 6 00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:26,840 Speaker 1: And it turns out that the reason the US rankings 7 00:00:26,840 --> 00:00:29,040 Speaker 1: have fallen is due to the point of view of 8 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:33,360 Speaker 1: people under thirty in the United States. So today we're 9 00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:36,040 Speaker 1: going to talk about how the report measures happiness and 10 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:39,040 Speaker 1: why the US has fallen out of the top twenty. 11 00:00:39,479 --> 00:00:42,440 Speaker 1: So I'm really pleased to welcome my guest, John Halliwell. 12 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:45,160 Speaker 1: He is one of the chief editors of the World 13 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:49,159 Speaker 1: Happiness Report. He is a Canadian Institute for Advanced Research 14 00:00:49,479 --> 00:00:54,320 Speaker 1: Distinguished Fellow and Professor Emeritus of Economics at the University 15 00:00:54,320 --> 00:01:08,880 Speaker 1: of British Columbia. John, welcome and thank you for joining 16 00:01:08,920 --> 00:01:09,959 Speaker 1: me on Newts World. 17 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:11,360 Speaker 2: My pleasure. 18 00:01:11,920 --> 00:01:14,679 Speaker 1: You know, British Columbia is so beautiful. I wonder to 19 00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:17,360 Speaker 1: what extent that gives you an interest in happiness. 20 00:01:19,319 --> 00:01:22,280 Speaker 3: Well, it's the search for happiness that has kept over 21 00:01:22,319 --> 00:01:24,840 Speaker 3: the years, drawing me back to my roots. Even though 22 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:27,600 Speaker 3: I have lived fifteen years in other countries. 23 00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:31,760 Speaker 1: Your PhD is in economics, but you've actually devoted the 24 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:36,240 Speaker 1: last quarter century of your academic career to studying subjective 25 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:41,080 Speaker 1: well being. I think an instant title subjective wellbeing talk 26 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:44,319 Speaker 1: a little bit about what subjective wellbeing means well. 27 00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:48,200 Speaker 3: The key measure that we use in the science of 28 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:51,400 Speaker 3: well being in general, there's sort of three options. You 29 00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:54,440 Speaker 3: can look for life evaluations as a whole, what do 30 00:01:54,520 --> 00:01:57,200 Speaker 3: people think about their lives? And then you can look 31 00:01:57,240 --> 00:02:01,600 Speaker 3: at positive emotions and negative emotions, And for us, the 32 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:06,400 Speaker 3: central measure is a life evaluation question. In a lot 33 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:09,400 Speaker 3: of the earlier research it was on life satisfaction. The 34 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:15,000 Speaker 3: recommended international measure is life satisfaction on a scale of 35 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:18,640 Speaker 3: zero to ten. A Gallop World Poll, which we use 36 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:21,800 Speaker 3: in the World Happiness Report and have used in the 37 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:26,120 Speaker 3: World Happiness Report since the first one in twenty twelve, 38 00:02:26,919 --> 00:02:30,640 Speaker 3: uses something called the Cantrall ladder, where people are asked 39 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:33,040 Speaker 3: to think of their lives as a ladder, with the 40 00:02:33,080 --> 00:02:35,840 Speaker 3: best possible life as a tent and the worst is 41 00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:38,800 Speaker 3: a zero, and where would you rank your life today? 42 00:02:39,560 --> 00:02:43,560 Speaker 3: And those are averaged over three years. A thousand people 43 00:02:43,600 --> 00:02:47,480 Speaker 3: each year, and that gives us a basis for the rankings, 44 00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:50,840 Speaker 3: which are a central part of the report alone. Nothing 45 00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:53,960 Speaker 3: like it's their way of getting people in to read 46 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:57,200 Speaker 3: the report, and then the report tries to get them 47 00:02:57,200 --> 00:02:59,240 Speaker 3: interested in what makes for better lives. 48 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:03,120 Speaker 1: Well, you know, it's deubinely interesting because the Gallop world 49 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:08,919 Speaker 1: Pole system is kind of an astonishing commitment to gathering data. 50 00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:10,640 Speaker 1: It's an enormous undertaking. 51 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:14,280 Speaker 3: It's an enormous undertaking, and the rest of the world 52 00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:17,880 Speaker 3: is very appreciative of that. When we wrote the first 53 00:03:17,919 --> 00:03:21,680 Speaker 3: World Happiness Support for a High Level Meeting on Happiness 54 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:25,080 Speaker 3: and well Being in twenty twelve, we used all the 55 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:28,680 Speaker 3: available sources all over the world. But even then, the 56 00:03:28,720 --> 00:03:33,680 Speaker 3: Gallop World Pole was the most broad measure available in 57 00:03:33,760 --> 00:03:37,360 Speaker 3: most countries, and it has been ever since, and thanks 58 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:41,760 Speaker 3: to Gallop's cooperation in making the data available to us, 59 00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:45,280 Speaker 3: it has been a centerpiece of the report ever since. 60 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:49,840 Speaker 3: I've been admiring of Jim Clifton and Gail Muller right 61 00:03:49,880 --> 00:03:54,200 Speaker 3: at the beginning, having the courage and the willingness to 62 00:03:54,320 --> 00:03:56,800 Speaker 3: take on something that right at the beginning they said, 63 00:03:56,880 --> 00:04:00,360 Speaker 3: this is something for a century and so they made 64 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:03,000 Speaker 3: that long bet and they've now been doing it for 65 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:06,280 Speaker 3: almost twenty years, and they get a lot of credit 66 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:10,760 Speaker 3: for that, because there has never been anything like as 67 00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:15,760 Speaker 3: comparable measures of almost anything in the world. The international 68 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:19,480 Speaker 3: comparisons of income are not yet as good as Gallops 69 00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:23,800 Speaker 3: already managed to make with these surveys, because they're run 70 00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:26,960 Speaker 3: essentially by the same people and the same methods all 71 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:27,760 Speaker 3: over the world. 72 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:30,840 Speaker 1: It's amazing. And I think that the Gallop system in 73 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:33,520 Speaker 1: the way in which they hire local people, so that 74 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:38,440 Speaker 1: you really have women in Saudi Arabia interviewing women, you 75 00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:42,880 Speaker 1: have people in the countryside in Africa interviewing people, and 76 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:48,839 Speaker 1: their effort to get accurate information I think is way 77 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:51,880 Speaker 1: beyond almost any organization I know of, And the result 78 00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:54,160 Speaker 1: is the value of their data is stunning. 79 00:04:54,760 --> 00:04:55,679 Speaker 2: It is very good. 80 00:04:55,720 --> 00:04:59,640 Speaker 3: And we have, of course many other sources of data 81 00:04:59,839 --> 00:05:04,240 Speaker 3: for restricted sets of countries, and Gallop ranks right up 82 00:05:04,279 --> 00:05:08,160 Speaker 3: there in terms of the quality of their interviewers. Of course, 83 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:11,640 Speaker 3: they cover more languages than anybody else does, and their 84 00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:16,400 Speaker 3: commitment to give surveys as long as a substantial fraction 85 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:19,600 Speaker 3: of a country's population speaks a language, then they use 86 00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:24,400 Speaker 3: that language as well, so they're getting very broad coverage. 87 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:33,039 Speaker 1: I noticed that the top ten countries Finland, Denmark, Iceland, Sweden, Israel, 88 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:38,760 Speaker 1: and then answer my question, Netherlands comes in next, Norway, Luxembourg, 89 00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:44,320 Speaker 1: Switzerland and Australia. You really have all five Nordic countries 90 00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:47,840 Speaker 1: in the top ten. What do you draw from the 91 00:05:47,839 --> 00:05:50,560 Speaker 1: top ten countries? In some ways, Australia, I guess, is 92 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:54,640 Speaker 1: the biggest outlier in this group, But what do you 93 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:56,600 Speaker 1: make of the ten of them being there? 94 00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:01,320 Speaker 3: Well, the Nordic countries always been in the top ten. 95 00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:04,440 Speaker 3: Sweden at least has been outside the top ten now 96 00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:07,800 Speaker 3: and again Switzerland, who was at the launch event in 97 00:06:07,960 --> 00:06:11,920 Speaker 3: Washington this year their ambassador has been number one at 98 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:15,600 Speaker 3: one stage. Norway has been number one, Denmark has been 99 00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:19,400 Speaker 3: number one twice. Finland has now landed and stayed in 100 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:22,400 Speaker 3: the top spot. I used to say it's a little 101 00:06:22,440 --> 00:06:25,160 Speaker 3: bit like saying when you go to first class football league, 102 00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:27,440 Speaker 3: you don't spend all your time looking at the team 103 00:06:27,480 --> 00:06:29,440 Speaker 3: that's best, because there are a lot of teams up 104 00:06:29,480 --> 00:06:32,120 Speaker 3: there with the potential to be right at the top. 105 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:33,800 Speaker 2: And what they. 106 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:36,160 Speaker 3: Offer, of course, is lessons for the rest of us 107 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:37,800 Speaker 3: about how we might do better. 108 00:06:38,320 --> 00:06:41,600 Speaker 1: When you look at the top ten, only two of them, 109 00:06:41,640 --> 00:06:45,400 Speaker 1: the Netherlands in Australia, have populations over fifteen million. 110 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:47,000 Speaker 2: It is interesting, isn't it. 111 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:50,960 Speaker 1: Well, it's almost like being a relatively small country gives 112 00:06:51,040 --> 00:06:53,839 Speaker 1: you some advantages. And of course I think the survey 113 00:06:53,960 --> 00:06:58,680 Speaker 1: was done before the tragic attack of October seventh. But Israel, 114 00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:01,000 Speaker 1: with all of the challenges that had and all of 115 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:03,880 Speaker 1: the threats against it, manages to be in the top ten, 116 00:07:04,279 --> 00:07:05,640 Speaker 1: which is pretty remarkable. 117 00:07:05,960 --> 00:07:09,080 Speaker 3: Is astonishing, And it's worth noting that we use a 118 00:07:09,080 --> 00:07:13,360 Speaker 3: three year average, and if the ranking had been based 119 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:17,280 Speaker 3: on their current measures, which were taken after October seventh, 120 00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:20,000 Speaker 3: they would have been out of the top twenty. I 121 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:22,560 Speaker 3: think they would have been twenty or twenty one. And 122 00:07:22,720 --> 00:07:27,040 Speaker 3: in terms of negative emotions, they had the highest degrees 123 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:30,760 Speaker 3: of sorrow of almost any country in those polls. And 124 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:35,000 Speaker 3: you could well see why the Palestinian survey was taken 125 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:40,760 Speaker 3: before the attacks and showed lowest in Gaza even relative 126 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:43,720 Speaker 3: to the rest of Palestine even then, and of course 127 00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:44,920 Speaker 3: they'll be far lower now. 128 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:47,280 Speaker 1: Do you know if somebody had asked me this the 129 00:07:47,320 --> 00:07:52,320 Speaker 1: other day, when you talk about the Israeli Happiness Report. 130 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:57,400 Speaker 1: Does that conclude the Arab population in Israel? Is it 131 00:07:57,440 --> 00:07:58,080 Speaker 1: blended in? 132 00:07:58,480 --> 00:07:58,680 Speaker 2: Yes? 133 00:07:58,720 --> 00:07:59,040 Speaker 3: It is. 134 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:00,520 Speaker 2: Yes, it does. So. 135 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:04,360 Speaker 1: Even with whatever the tensions might be among the Arabs 136 00:08:04,360 --> 00:08:07,880 Speaker 1: inside Israel, they still end up in the top ten 137 00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:11,440 Speaker 1: of happiest countries in the world, which is pretty remarkable. 138 00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:16,040 Speaker 3: It's interesting that it's especially true among the young. Israel 139 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:18,280 Speaker 3: as a whole has always been in the top twenty. 140 00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:22,800 Speaker 3: It's been roughly eleven twelve and down more recently in 141 00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:23,520 Speaker 3: the top ten. 142 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:26,200 Speaker 1: And then to go to the opposite level of happiness, 143 00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:33,640 Speaker 1: the bottom ten countries starting from the least happiest Afghanistan, Lebanon, Lesoto, 144 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:42,079 Speaker 1: Sierra Leone, Congo, Zimbabwe, Botswana, Malawi, Swutini, Zambia. Two of them, 145 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:45,480 Speaker 1: of course, Afghanistan and Lebanon On Asia. The rest are 146 00:08:45,520 --> 00:08:50,640 Speaker 1: all in Africa. Is there any common characteristic that places 147 00:08:50,679 --> 00:08:51,680 Speaker 1: them in the bottom ten? 148 00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:53,520 Speaker 2: Overall? 149 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:56,480 Speaker 3: We say, to be in the top ten, you've got 150 00:08:56,520 --> 00:08:58,800 Speaker 3: to rank high in all the things we look at. 151 00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:01,760 Speaker 3: To be in the bottom ten, you have to rank 152 00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:04,319 Speaker 3: pretty low in all of the things that we look at. 153 00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:08,160 Speaker 3: So these are how people rank their own lives. Nothing 154 00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:10,720 Speaker 3: more is added to that. But as you know, we 155 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:13,560 Speaker 3: spend quite a lot of effort trying to explain these 156 00:09:13,679 --> 00:09:18,600 Speaker 3: differences across countries over time and in terms of levels now, 157 00:09:19,679 --> 00:09:23,600 Speaker 3: and these six factors that we look at there are 158 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:26,560 Speaker 3: all low. In the lowest countries, we actually have a 159 00:09:26,600 --> 00:09:30,800 Speaker 3: country we call dystopia, which is the level of happiness 160 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:34,839 Speaker 3: that there would be in an imaginary country if they 161 00:09:34,880 --> 00:09:37,920 Speaker 3: had the world's lowest values of each of the six 162 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:42,160 Speaker 3: variables we look at, which are GDP per capita, healthy 163 00:09:42,240 --> 00:09:46,240 Speaker 3: life expectancy, and probably the most important of all, you 164 00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:50,360 Speaker 3: have someone to count on in times of trouble, generosity, 165 00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:55,240 Speaker 3: sense of freedom to make key life decisions, and the 166 00:09:55,320 --> 00:09:59,000 Speaker 3: lack of corruption, and those countries at the bottom have 167 00:09:59,120 --> 00:10:04,360 Speaker 3: them all. We don't have very good general data for 168 00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:09,440 Speaker 3: the state of internal conflict and warfare because of sample size, 169 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:13,079 Speaker 3: and you can't even run surveys in war torn places, 170 00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:16,480 Speaker 3: but we know that's very important. So countries that have 171 00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:21,760 Speaker 3: either been the victims of conflict or are charged with 172 00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:35,040 Speaker 3: very high levels of internal dispute are very unhappy. 173 00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:45,120 Speaker 1: You know, I noticed it. Interestingly, two of the countries 174 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:48,199 Speaker 1: that fell out of the top twenty are big countries 175 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:52,080 Speaker 1: in United States, which dropped from fifteen to twenty three, 176 00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:56,000 Speaker 1: and Germany, which dropped from sixteen to twenty four. Is 177 00:10:56,000 --> 00:11:00,440 Speaker 1: there any commonality in the German and American responses that 178 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:03,199 Speaker 1: would help explain why both of them dropped. 179 00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:04,920 Speaker 2: That's an interesting question. 180 00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:08,040 Speaker 3: I haven't heard it posed quite that way, But it 181 00:11:08,160 --> 00:11:10,800 Speaker 3: is true that one of the key features that are 182 00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:15,120 Speaker 3: behind the drops in both Germany and the United States 183 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:18,560 Speaker 3: are the happiness of the young, So that it isn't 184 00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:21,240 Speaker 3: everywhere in the world that the young are dropping relative 185 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:24,360 Speaker 3: to the old, but it was true in both those countries. 186 00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:28,040 Speaker 3: In the case of both those countries, the thing that's 187 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:30,200 Speaker 3: in common is that there's some. 188 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:31,680 Speaker 2: Other countries coming along. 189 00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:35,360 Speaker 3: While there were slipping a little bit or fair amount, 190 00:11:35,760 --> 00:11:39,280 Speaker 3: other countries were rising. And in particular, we know that 191 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:43,800 Speaker 3: three countries of Central and Eastern Europe are now above 192 00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:46,480 Speaker 3: them and the rankings that I think nineteen twenty and 193 00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:52,280 Speaker 3: twenty one, and that's part of the convergence between Eastern 194 00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:55,720 Speaker 3: and Western Europe that's been now going on for almost 195 00:11:55,800 --> 00:11:59,200 Speaker 3: as long as the Pole has been in operation. And 196 00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:02,480 Speaker 3: for the young, they're now equally happy in Eastern and 197 00:12:02,559 --> 00:12:06,480 Speaker 3: Western Europe, and so that marks a convergence the old 198 00:12:06,679 --> 00:12:09,480 Speaker 3: that's not the case, because many more of them bear 199 00:12:09,559 --> 00:12:12,800 Speaker 3: the scars of previous lives. That's certainly true in the 200 00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:13,760 Speaker 3: Balkans as well. 201 00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:18,680 Speaker 1: We've just been through a historic moment in which there's 202 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:23,160 Speaker 1: been a worldwide pandemic with COVID, and yet apparently, if 203 00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:27,200 Speaker 1: I understand it correctly, there's no particular net increase or 204 00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:31,400 Speaker 1: decrease in life evaluations even though we've been through this 205 00:12:32,040 --> 00:12:33,640 Speaker 1: remarkably challenging period. 206 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:37,280 Speaker 3: One of the most popular, most red reports we had 207 00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:39,920 Speaker 3: was in twenty twenty one, which is the first report 208 00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:43,199 Speaker 3: that came out with the first year of evidence from 209 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:46,840 Speaker 3: twenty twenty of COVID, and there was almost no budge. 210 00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:50,600 Speaker 3: And we've continued to found that through COVID, very little 211 00:12:50,679 --> 00:12:54,880 Speaker 3: change in average levels of life evaluation. Will clearly lives 212 00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:58,320 Speaker 3: were torn asunder, and this was in its own way 213 00:12:58,760 --> 00:13:03,880 Speaker 3: akin to natural disasters that we've seen before, like earthquakes 214 00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:07,920 Speaker 3: and tsunamis where you can see what I'm doing now, 215 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:10,240 Speaker 3: I'm trying to set the stage for saying, how could 216 00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:15,280 Speaker 3: life evaluations not drop under this enormous twist. I don't 217 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:17,240 Speaker 3: have to go through all the negative things that were 218 00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:18,640 Speaker 3: happening in people's lives. 219 00:13:18,920 --> 00:13:19,800 Speaker 2: What I'm now. 220 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:24,080 Speaker 3: Countering up is a story that can explain why people's 221 00:13:24,080 --> 00:13:28,120 Speaker 3: life evaluations didn't drop on average. Obviously, where some people 222 00:13:28,320 --> 00:13:33,640 Speaker 3: were more damaged than others. But like other natural disasters, 223 00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:38,880 Speaker 3: we have found that there's an underlying negativity effect that 224 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:42,880 Speaker 3: people pay attention to bad news and it ends up 225 00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:47,840 Speaker 3: having them think worse of other people than other people merit. 226 00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:49,719 Speaker 2: And so what. 227 00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:53,120 Speaker 3: Happens in a natural disaster is that you find out 228 00:13:53,160 --> 00:13:55,640 Speaker 3: what your neighbors are like and others. Some places where 229 00:13:55,679 --> 00:13:59,640 Speaker 3: a natural disaster just leads to looting and even confirms 230 00:13:59,679 --> 00:14:03,079 Speaker 3: the word view of the other person. But in most 231 00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:06,880 Speaker 3: cases in natural disasters, people rush out to help others, 232 00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:09,920 Speaker 3: to do what they can to make life better for them, 233 00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:12,760 Speaker 3: And not only does that make them feel better doing that, 234 00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:15,920 Speaker 3: it helplessly makes the people they're helping feel better, but 235 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:19,800 Speaker 3: makes both of them more convinced that people they share 236 00:14:20,120 --> 00:14:23,520 Speaker 3: their communities with our good people. And that makes you 237 00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:27,280 Speaker 3: feel better because to feel someone else happier back makes 238 00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:30,720 Speaker 3: you feel better. Okay, one piece of evidence, And we 239 00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:34,160 Speaker 3: didn't know this when we first knew that the life 240 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:38,680 Speaker 3: evaluations were dropping, but in twenty twenty, but especially twenty 241 00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:41,640 Speaker 3: twenty one, and we've seen it since. There was a 242 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:46,240 Speaker 3: huge increase in benevolence all over the world. And people 243 00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:50,160 Speaker 3: may initially have simply reached out to others because they 244 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:54,240 Speaker 3: needed it, but they've kept doing it, and that benevolence, 245 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:58,320 Speaker 3: when done and when seen, is a fundamental support to 246 00:14:58,360 --> 00:14:59,440 Speaker 3: life evaluations. 247 00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:02,320 Speaker 2: Four kinds of benevolence. 248 00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:06,880 Speaker 3: We look at our helping of strangers, donations and volunteering, 249 00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:10,440 Speaker 3: well all of them were up, especially helping of strangers, 250 00:15:10,840 --> 00:15:13,520 Speaker 3: and they're up by about fifteen to twenty percent all 251 00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:18,280 Speaker 3: over the world. So that gives you some inkling about 252 00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:22,480 Speaker 3: how this reshaping of lives can make people feel better. 253 00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:24,360 Speaker 3: And you go and ask your friends, how was it 254 00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:27,400 Speaker 3: for you during the pandemic? Just as people always used 255 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:30,040 Speaker 3: about the war, what sort of a war did you have? 256 00:15:30,280 --> 00:15:34,400 Speaker 3: How did you look after yourself during these awful times? 257 00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:38,360 Speaker 3: And a striking number of people said, our family has 258 00:15:38,440 --> 00:15:41,800 Speaker 3: rediscovered each other. They were forced to be in the 259 00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:45,560 Speaker 3: same boot camp, playpen, whatever you call it together, but 260 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:48,320 Speaker 3: a lot of them have done very well in that context. 261 00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:53,120 Speaker 3: People have and I've certainly found it that having not 262 00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:56,000 Speaker 3: to jump on a plane to meet someone across the 263 00:15:56,040 --> 00:16:00,440 Speaker 3: world to do a collaboration. Everyone shifted immediately to zoom 264 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:05,160 Speaker 3: and its equivalent, and that ended up actually creating many 265 00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:10,160 Speaker 3: more lively connections than had existed before. And so we 266 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:13,480 Speaker 3: find among older people that's a special surprise, right. They 267 00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:16,680 Speaker 3: were most threatened by the disease, they were most subject 268 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:22,000 Speaker 3: to mortality and morbidity, and yet their subjective well being 269 00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:25,440 Speaker 3: didn't draw And you ask them about their lives and 270 00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:28,880 Speaker 3: they say, I hear more from my younger members of 271 00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:32,200 Speaker 3: my family than I ever did before the pandemic. And 272 00:16:32,280 --> 00:16:37,400 Speaker 3: so the luck of having effective social media on hand 273 00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:41,320 Speaker 3: at that time really enable people. I'm imagine what it 274 00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:43,760 Speaker 3: would have been like had we all been locked in 275 00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:47,600 Speaker 3: our houses with no ability to essentially work from home 276 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:52,040 Speaker 3: or learn from home, or contact family from home. It 277 00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:54,800 Speaker 3: really would have been bad. So part of it is 278 00:16:54,840 --> 00:16:58,720 Speaker 3: simply a rejigging of the technical possibilities that had been 279 00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:01,440 Speaker 3: used for lesser purposes for greater pots. 280 00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:04,800 Speaker 1: As I listened to you, I can't help but think 281 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:09,200 Speaker 1: that all of the talk about social distancing actually brought 282 00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:12,119 Speaker 1: us together. I mean, it's kind of wild if you 283 00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:14,960 Speaker 1: think about the effort with the mask, with being six 284 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:17,840 Speaker 1: feet apart and all these things. I mean, I think 285 00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:21,320 Speaker 1: this is fascinating that it may well turn out that 286 00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:24,960 Speaker 1: this was a positive experience, even though it was a 287 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:28,399 Speaker 1: personal tragedy for people who died from it. But that, 288 00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:31,320 Speaker 1: to me is one of the biggest surprises of the 289 00:17:31,359 --> 00:17:34,760 Speaker 1: Gallup pole that we're talking about. But now there's a 290 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:38,720 Speaker 1: second surprise, which I wasn't shocked by given other things 291 00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:42,160 Speaker 1: I've looked at, but I was really disturbed by, and 292 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:45,280 Speaker 1: that is that the gap that is now building in 293 00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:49,640 Speaker 1: the US is between those who were under thirty and 294 00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:53,080 Speaker 1: those who are over sixty. That people over sixty are 295 00:17:53,119 --> 00:17:58,119 Speaker 1: actually substantially happier than people who are under thirty. I mean, 296 00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:00,040 Speaker 1: how do you analyze that. 297 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:02,720 Speaker 3: We've got three issues right, We mustn't forget the people 298 00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:03,320 Speaker 3: in the middle. 299 00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:05,320 Speaker 2: So it's been. 300 00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:09,600 Speaker 3: Known for quite a while in most countries, not all countries. 301 00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:13,199 Speaker 3: Most times people start out happy when they're young, and 302 00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:17,120 Speaker 3: then they get less happy in the midlife crunch stage, 303 00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:19,440 Speaker 3: and then they come out of that and get happier 304 00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:22,680 Speaker 3: later on. So if you think of a U what's 305 00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:25,440 Speaker 3: happened in the United States, that's twisted with a big 306 00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:29,080 Speaker 3: drop in the happiness of the young and a maintenance, 307 00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:33,240 Speaker 3: not quite a maintenance, but almost maintenance for the older populations, 308 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:36,240 Speaker 3: and the middle sort of dropping down too. So the 309 00:18:36,359 --> 00:18:39,679 Speaker 3: United States drop is in all three age groups, but 310 00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:42,879 Speaker 3: especially for the young. And I think one of the 311 00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:47,919 Speaker 3: striking things in the report is that we rank countries 312 00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:50,920 Speaker 3: by how happy they're young were and how happy they 313 00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:55,199 Speaker 3: old were. The US was tenth for the over sixties, 314 00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:59,800 Speaker 3: so punching above its weight for the over sixties, and 315 00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:03,960 Speaker 3: I think sixty second for the under thirties, So that 316 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:07,879 Speaker 3: gave a gap of fifty two between the two ranks 317 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:10,720 Speaker 3: for the young and the old, and Canada was almost 318 00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:12,680 Speaker 3: in as bad a situation as that. 319 00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:16,840 Speaker 1: Do Canada and the US tend to run parallel on 320 00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:18,720 Speaker 1: these kind of measures, The. 321 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:24,119 Speaker 3: Simple answer is no. It is true among Western European countries, 322 00:19:24,359 --> 00:19:29,120 Speaker 3: and especially among the North America plus Australia and New Zealand, 323 00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:32,560 Speaker 3: that there's this twist taking place of the young happiness 324 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:36,040 Speaker 3: dropping relative to the old. There are many countries of 325 00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:38,719 Speaker 3: the world where the reverse is true, where the twist 326 00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:41,199 Speaker 3: is the other way around, where the young are rising 327 00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:45,520 Speaker 3: faster than the old. The Scandinavian countries, I think, if 328 00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:48,360 Speaker 3: you look at those rankings, then look at the very 329 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:53,760 Speaker 3: top countries. Finland, for example, is number seven for the 330 00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:57,760 Speaker 3: young and number one for the lower middle, one for 331 00:19:57,840 --> 00:19:58,920 Speaker 3: the upper middle. 332 00:19:58,680 --> 00:19:59,960 Speaker 2: And two for the old. 333 00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:04,360 Speaker 3: So they end up talk everywhere, but doing better for 334 00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:07,240 Speaker 3: the old and for the young. The same is true 335 00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:12,399 Speaker 3: for the other Denmark is second overall, fifth for the young, 336 00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:15,679 Speaker 3: so you could see, as you suggest, there is some 337 00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:19,639 Speaker 3: parallelism in those countries of the lower ranking for the 338 00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:20,560 Speaker 3: young than the old. 339 00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:42,320 Speaker 1: Do we have some analytical insights into why the young 340 00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:48,000 Speaker 1: are more pessimistic or have a lower level of satisfaction 341 00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:50,200 Speaker 1: than they head, say, twenty years ago. 342 00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:54,760 Speaker 3: We're still in the guesswork stage, but there's lots of 343 00:20:55,480 --> 00:21:01,399 Speaker 3: potential culprits. If you look around at various institutions of 344 00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:06,600 Speaker 3: our private lives and our public lives. People are disputing 345 00:21:07,119 --> 00:21:12,200 Speaker 3: the rights of others to speak. They're feeling guilty either 346 00:21:12,359 --> 00:21:16,480 Speaker 3: blaming others for what's going on in terms of warfare, 347 00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:22,360 Speaker 3: in terms of gender issues, in terms of colonial history issues. 348 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:27,480 Speaker 3: There's a whole range of the past that's being unearthed 349 00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:33,080 Speaker 3: in ways that so far are leading people to feel 350 00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:39,680 Speaker 3: discouraged about what has happened and not yet working collaboratively 351 00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:42,879 Speaker 3: to do something better for the future. So it's as 352 00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:47,159 Speaker 3: though we can see this earthquake in opinion and people 353 00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:52,080 Speaker 3: getting disputatious without yet coming out to join together to 354 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:55,439 Speaker 3: find solutions, better ways forward. So it's still in that 355 00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:59,639 Speaker 3: blaming stage, and that's an unhappy stage because they're seeing 356 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:03,719 Speaker 3: people those enemies rather than friends to collaborate with. And 357 00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:07,280 Speaker 3: I think that's more common among the young than the 358 00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:12,240 Speaker 3: old for two reasons. One is that they're more subject 359 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:18,560 Speaker 3: to the media that are amplifying these disputed positions. I 360 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:21,960 Speaker 3: think it's kind of a commonplace that our media are 361 00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:25,840 Speaker 3: now more polarized, even the sort of official media, more 362 00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:29,120 Speaker 3: polarized than they would have been forty years ago. And 363 00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:33,840 Speaker 3: the social media in some sense invite polarization because it's 364 00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:38,639 Speaker 3: very much easier to form groups of likes people like yourself, 365 00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:42,639 Speaker 3: and then that creates an information vacuum where you don't 366 00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:45,800 Speaker 3: really know what other people not like you are thinking, 367 00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:48,840 Speaker 3: so you're more likely to believe the worst about them 368 00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:53,840 Speaker 3: than think the worst about them. And that recycling and 369 00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:59,159 Speaker 3: building up of information in conflicting stories is not a 370 00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:02,679 Speaker 3: secret for happiness, it's a secret for unhappiness because it 371 00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:06,240 Speaker 3: makes people think about climate change. For example, that's been 372 00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:11,080 Speaker 3: an area of increasing worry for young people now for 373 00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:15,080 Speaker 3: thirty forty years. They're feeling cross that the world that's 374 00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:19,119 Speaker 3: being left to them and they don't have no easy 375 00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:22,199 Speaker 3: ways of doing something about it in their own lives. 376 00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:25,200 Speaker 3: You chalk that up with the other issues I mentioned, 377 00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:28,760 Speaker 3: and you say, well, that's a pretty nasty newsfeed. We 378 00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:33,760 Speaker 3: know that within the news business it has a negativity 379 00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:36,960 Speaker 3: bias that we all have, so it focuses on the 380 00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:39,800 Speaker 3: bad because people are drawn to the bad. 381 00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:42,639 Speaker 2: So if you tell the bad news stories, you'll sell 382 00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:43,800 Speaker 2: more newspapers. 383 00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:47,120 Speaker 3: Well that may be okay for selling newspapers, but it's 384 00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:50,920 Speaker 3: not a good way of giving people a realistic view 385 00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:53,920 Speaker 3: of the quality of life around them. 386 00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:55,480 Speaker 2: Let me give you just one. 387 00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:59,640 Speaker 3: Example of that that we know, because we've now got 388 00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:00,560 Speaker 3: experience or mental. 389 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:01,119 Speaker 2: Evidence on this. 390 00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:03,679 Speaker 3: That people love living in a country where if they 391 00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:06,760 Speaker 3: drop their wallet, it would be returned the society of 392 00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:12,040 Speaker 3: other people watching you back. And early experiments in Helsinki, 393 00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:14,400 Speaker 3: ten out of tend wallets were returned. Well, that wasn't 394 00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:16,880 Speaker 3: true in all the other places where they were done. 395 00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:21,080 Speaker 3: We now these experiments everywhere the important point for this 396 00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:25,040 Speaker 3: discussion is that people are generally much better than we 397 00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:28,160 Speaker 3: think they are. So we know the proportion of wallets 398 00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:31,439 Speaker 3: who are returned. We now have surveys that ask people 399 00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:34,359 Speaker 3: how likely is your wallet to be returned if you 400 00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:40,360 Speaker 3: dropped it? On average, they underguess the row wallet returned dramatically. Well, 401 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:44,120 Speaker 3: now play that into the current environment, where you're hearing 402 00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:47,920 Speaker 3: all kinds of bad news. You probably find people actually 403 00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:51,760 Speaker 3: thinking that all those nasty people out there who disagree 404 00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:54,840 Speaker 3: with me on everything from gender to the Civil War, 405 00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:57,480 Speaker 3: they wouldn't do anything for me, and I wouldn't do 406 00:24:57,520 --> 00:24:58,320 Speaker 3: anything for them. 407 00:24:58,359 --> 00:24:58,960 Speaker 2: And so you. 408 00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:04,520 Speaker 3: Get a degradation of these positive instincts that are enormously 409 00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:08,840 Speaker 3: life supporting. And I suspect those new circles are probably 410 00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:12,840 Speaker 3: running faster and are not in check as much for 411 00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:15,520 Speaker 3: the young as for the old. I can add one 412 00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:19,680 Speaker 3: more piece of information, which is part of the puzzle 413 00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:22,240 Speaker 3: we face as to why the old are getting happier. 414 00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:25,200 Speaker 3: It's not just that the older now on average happier 415 00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:27,800 Speaker 3: than the young. Within the old age group, people are 416 00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:30,280 Speaker 3: getting happier every year of their lives. Well, we know 417 00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:33,160 Speaker 3: their health status is getting worse every year on average, 418 00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:36,000 Speaker 3: we know it matters to them more that they're about 419 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:40,320 Speaker 3: their health status. Their actual social contacts are getting less 420 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:43,480 Speaker 3: frequent than they were before. But yet they're happier with 421 00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:47,119 Speaker 3: their social contacts, and they're more satisfied with their lives, 422 00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:50,120 Speaker 3: and they're less lonely than their younger people year by year. 423 00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:53,800 Speaker 3: And so this is something that's called the positivity effect. 424 00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:56,680 Speaker 3: The idea is as you get older, you get wiser, 425 00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:00,520 Speaker 3: and so you learn to see the bad things, learn 426 00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:03,439 Speaker 3: the lessons you have to learn, and then close the 427 00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:07,200 Speaker 3: door while you pull out the good things and polish them, 428 00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:10,159 Speaker 3: and you manage your social relations different. You may not 429 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:12,359 Speaker 3: have as many of them, but you know how to 430 00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:15,080 Speaker 3: choose the ones that'll be good for the other person 431 00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:18,080 Speaker 3: and good for you. Some people argue it's only when 432 00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:21,280 Speaker 3: you see that life is finite you ask yourself the question, 433 00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:23,879 Speaker 3: how do I want to live the rest of my life? 434 00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:26,200 Speaker 3: And you say, I don't want to spend it all fighting, 435 00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:28,080 Speaker 3: I don't want to be angry with people. 436 00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:29,760 Speaker 2: I want to enjoy life. 437 00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:32,320 Speaker 3: I want to make life better for other people in me, 438 00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:35,360 Speaker 3: And so more and more people do that as they 439 00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:38,159 Speaker 3: get older, and of course it makes them happier, but 440 00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:40,760 Speaker 3: it shouldn't take that long to start learning that lesson. 441 00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:44,040 Speaker 1: I'm very curious to what degree the current sense of 442 00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:48,080 Speaker 1: loneliness among younger people is a combination of the rise 443 00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:52,159 Speaker 1: of social media and the rise of smartphones, so people 444 00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:56,119 Speaker 1: literally spend less time with other human beings directly and 445 00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:59,600 Speaker 1: more time electronically. Is there any kind of study or 446 00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:01,119 Speaker 1: an is that would help us with that. 447 00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:03,760 Speaker 3: There are a lot of studies of that sort, and 448 00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:06,240 Speaker 3: indeed there are a lot of people who are asking 449 00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:09,679 Speaker 3: people just on an experimental basis to put their phones 450 00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:12,119 Speaker 3: away for a week and see how they do. And 451 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:15,640 Speaker 3: another study that asks people to find their way across 452 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:19,640 Speaker 3: campus by asking people for help or use their smartphone 453 00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:22,840 Speaker 3: to get directions, and the people who use other people 454 00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:26,119 Speaker 3: rather than their smartphones were indeed happier at the end 455 00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:29,080 Speaker 3: of that process. There is lots of that evidence the 456 00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:31,919 Speaker 3: drop in young people's happiness is due not only to 457 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:36,439 Speaker 3: the devices they're overusing, but actually what they're finding on 458 00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:40,040 Speaker 3: those devices. I think I think I can add one 459 00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:44,040 Speaker 3: bit of optimism to that, because there's some talk about 460 00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:47,320 Speaker 3: there being a downward trend, and is that a trend 461 00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:50,199 Speaker 3: that's going to carry on. One of the things we 462 00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:54,159 Speaker 3: looked at is benevolence, finding it up for all generations, 463 00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:58,040 Speaker 3: but even most for the millennials and their successors. So 464 00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:01,879 Speaker 3: despite the fact that they're not happy, they're obviously still 465 00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:04,679 Speaker 3: ready to reach out and help others, just as ready 466 00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:08,880 Speaker 3: as those in earlier generations. And so that's the hopefulness 467 00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:12,960 Speaker 3: to harness that willingness to help and make them more 468 00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:17,560 Speaker 3: willing to use those efforts and inclinations that they obviously 469 00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:18,160 Speaker 3: still have. 470 00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:21,840 Speaker 1: I noticed that this whole notion of some kind of 471 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:27,919 Speaker 1: support relationship is really vital to the whole measurement of 472 00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:31,720 Speaker 1: your attitude. It's kind of sad, but you also report 473 00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:35,639 Speaker 1: that the peak of loneliness is twenty. I mean to 474 00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:39,080 Speaker 1: imagine that you feel the most isolated and the most 475 00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:42,520 Speaker 1: without hope at twenty years of age, which I used 476 00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:45,520 Speaker 1: to think was a time when life would be exciting 477 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:48,640 Speaker 1: and the future would be interesting. And we seem to 478 00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:49,840 Speaker 1: almost switch roles. 479 00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:54,520 Speaker 3: Well, whether we lay that on the social media or elsewhere, 480 00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:58,400 Speaker 3: I don't know. But if you don't feel their people around, 481 00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:01,280 Speaker 3: if you don't feel their groups round to which you belong, 482 00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:04,400 Speaker 3: if you feel excluded, then you're going to start feeling 483 00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:07,000 Speaker 3: lonely right, because you're rather short of people who you 484 00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:11,080 Speaker 3: will feel supported by. It is striking. It's not in 485 00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:13,560 Speaker 3: every country, by the way, that that is happening. 486 00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:16,200 Speaker 2: Nonetheless, the loneliness levels in. 487 00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:19,160 Speaker 3: The United States for the young are not all that 488 00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:23,760 Speaker 3: much higher than in other countries, indeed lower than most 489 00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:26,960 Speaker 3: At average loneliness levels in the United States, and that 490 00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:30,400 Speaker 3: group of countries are almost at the world's lowest levels. 491 00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:33,160 Speaker 3: So you wouldn't want to say the United States as 492 00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:34,920 Speaker 3: a whole is in the loneliness crunch. 493 00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:37,160 Speaker 2: That ain't the case looking at those numbers. 494 00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:40,920 Speaker 1: There's one other area here where this whole approach to 495 00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:44,560 Speaker 1: well being, which is something Jim Clifton and I have 496 00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:48,320 Speaker 1: talked about for over twenty years. But apparently there's a 497 00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:54,440 Speaker 1: real correlation between well being and dementia in a way 498 00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:57,320 Speaker 1: that's actually very encouraging and very positive. Can you talk 499 00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:00,680 Speaker 1: a little bit about how well being affects the risk 500 00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:01,880 Speaker 1: of developing dementia? 501 00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:06,200 Speaker 3: Sure, we have a special chapter on that in this 502 00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:10,120 Speaker 3: year's report, So it's the right time to address this topic. 503 00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:11,920 Speaker 2: It isn't just. 504 00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:14,880 Speaker 3: Dementia, by the way. We used to looking for risk 505 00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:19,520 Speaker 3: factors for disease. They're now looking for positive risks II. 506 00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:22,560 Speaker 3: Things that are done right, you'll have less disease well. 507 00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:28,400 Speaker 3: Having a high life evaluation after standardizing for all the 508 00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:33,400 Speaker 3: other risk characteristics, then is a future predictor of mortality 509 00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:38,920 Speaker 3: and morbidity for many sources, among which dementia is one. Dementia, 510 00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:41,800 Speaker 3: of course can kill because it kills the sense of 511 00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:46,040 Speaker 3: life aslong with other things. But you could imagine that 512 00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:50,200 Speaker 3: there's kind of a positive circle that goes on between 513 00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:51,640 Speaker 3: happiness and activities. 514 00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:55,719 Speaker 2: Right, we know other evidence that people had that. In 515 00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:56,280 Speaker 2: order to. 516 00:30:56,600 --> 00:31:01,760 Speaker 3: Keep your mind alive and well, it needs exercise and 517 00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:06,480 Speaker 3: benefits from physical exercise as well as mental exercise, and increasingly, 518 00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:10,520 Speaker 3: of course we're learning in this report and elsewhere social exercise. 519 00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:15,160 Speaker 3: So you really want to exercise all your human capacities, 520 00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:18,560 Speaker 3: and if you do, they last longer and they remain healthier, 521 00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:23,320 Speaker 3: and so that the actual onset of dementia is less 522 00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:27,240 Speaker 3: likely and the severity of it is less likely. And 523 00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:32,320 Speaker 3: what's more, of course, by inducing positive states of living, 524 00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:35,360 Speaker 3: this is not sitting someone in front of a television 525 00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:39,440 Speaker 3: set learning reasons to die. It's connecting them with other 526 00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:42,840 Speaker 3: people in a lively way giving them reasons to live, 527 00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:46,400 Speaker 3: and that not only makes them live longer even if 528 00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:50,200 Speaker 3: they are in some state of mental decline, but happier 529 00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:53,080 Speaker 3: all along the way. And surely that should be the objective. 530 00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:56,800 Speaker 1: That's wonderful. Now I'm curious. I noticed that you've given 531 00:31:56,840 --> 00:32:01,400 Speaker 1: a lot of talks about subjective well being to guide 532 00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:05,640 Speaker 1: public policy. If you were talking to the Congress or 533 00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:08,200 Speaker 1: talking to the president of the Sectory of Health and 534 00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:11,080 Speaker 1: Human Services, what do you think of the key things 535 00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:15,880 Speaker 1: we should be thinking about in public policy to maximize 536 00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:19,560 Speaker 1: both his whole sense of happiness but also the sense 537 00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:22,440 Speaker 1: of wellness and well being well. 538 00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:25,480 Speaker 3: I think the first thing, and I think when David Cameron, 539 00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:29,960 Speaker 3: the British Prime Minister, was the first nation beyond Bhutan 540 00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:34,400 Speaker 3: to really take it seriously when he launched his program 541 00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:37,400 Speaker 3: in twenty ten, I think he had the three pillars right. 542 00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:41,240 Speaker 3: First of all, he was making a pitch and government 543 00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:44,160 Speaker 3: so ought to take this seriously. But then he sat 544 00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:47,040 Speaker 3: on the platform with the head of the Statistical Agency 545 00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:50,480 Speaker 3: and said, we really need to have these measures of 546 00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:54,240 Speaker 3: the quality of life, not just incomes and whether you're 547 00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:57,360 Speaker 3: employed or whether you're sick, but the actual quality of 548 00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:01,880 Speaker 3: your life measured everywhere in all our major surveys. Secondly, 549 00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:06,120 Speaker 3: the civil service needs to be trained and brought on board, 550 00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:08,800 Speaker 3: because you're not going to change things on the ground 551 00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:12,320 Speaker 3: unless all of participants think that's important. Of course, we 552 00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:15,800 Speaker 3: know from the happiness research that's the way to get 553 00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:19,240 Speaker 3: things done right. You do things collaboratively, not by orders 554 00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:22,320 Speaker 3: from the top. You do them, and with little luck, 555 00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:25,440 Speaker 3: most of these actual changes will be coming from the 556 00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:29,280 Speaker 3: bottom up, in which case it's for the legislatures to 557 00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:31,280 Speaker 3: get out of the way and open the doors and 558 00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:34,760 Speaker 3: make things possible. Let me give you one particular example 559 00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:38,520 Speaker 3: that I use for very easy public policy change that 560 00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:43,000 Speaker 3: would dramatically improve lives. We've been studying a program called 561 00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:46,600 Speaker 3: Iyegen in Saskatoon that takes a grade six class and 562 00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:49,160 Speaker 3: puts it in an eldercare facility for a whole year. 563 00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:54,000 Speaker 3: It changes the lives of those students forever, It changes 564 00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:57,280 Speaker 3: the lives of the elders in that and doesn't cost 565 00:33:57,360 --> 00:34:00,760 Speaker 3: anything because it's just a classroom one building versus another, 566 00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:03,400 Speaker 3: and the teacher just goes to a different place for work. 567 00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:06,880 Speaker 3: But they end up spending a lot of their time 568 00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:09,839 Speaker 3: with people they otherwise never would have met, never would 569 00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:13,000 Speaker 3: have understood. They are of a broader life, They care 570 00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:16,040 Speaker 3: for each other. It's life changing for the people who 571 00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:19,160 Speaker 3: work there, because we've been studying it right through COVID 572 00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:23,560 Speaker 3: and before, and yet nobody doesn't. Why don't they do it? 573 00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:27,440 Speaker 3: It's because the general public policy set up now for 574 00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:31,120 Speaker 3: the last twenty years, there's been an increasing risk aversion. 575 00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:35,880 Speaker 3: Cover your rear, make sure nothing goes wrong on your watch. 576 00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:39,920 Speaker 3: So what happens. You lock the schools, keep everybody out, 577 00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:44,040 Speaker 3: You lock the elder care facilities, keeping everybody in. And 578 00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:48,720 Speaker 3: while you could dramatically by opening doors rather than closing doors, 579 00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:52,640 Speaker 3: you will actually end up giving people safer, longer and 580 00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:55,759 Speaker 3: happier lives. It's easy to do, but it does need 581 00:34:56,080 --> 00:35:01,040 Speaker 3: governments at higher levels to say, we encourage you to 582 00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:05,000 Speaker 3: take whatever risks are required, to bend your rules to 583 00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:08,840 Speaker 3: open doors for people, to create the social relations that 584 00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:12,040 Speaker 3: are going to keep them alive, keep them healthy. And 585 00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:16,960 Speaker 3: that's kind of trivial, but it isn't trivial. It's absolutely fundamental, 586 00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:20,480 Speaker 3: and yet we don't see it happening. And so you 587 00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:23,000 Speaker 3: have to tell some stories like that to people who 588 00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:25,719 Speaker 3: make policies, say well, if you believe me that this 589 00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:28,560 Speaker 3: is as wonderful as our evidence says it is, why 590 00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:32,560 Speaker 3: aren't you encouraging school boards and elder care facilities to 591 00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:36,240 Speaker 3: get together? Why aren't you joining these silos of public 592 00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:39,799 Speaker 3: policy so they're not getting narrower and narrower and more 593 00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:43,279 Speaker 3: and more protected by their own rules and regulations and 594 00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:46,319 Speaker 3: who's allowed in the facility and who isn't allowed in 595 00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:50,120 Speaker 3: the facility. We have to link with each other and 596 00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:53,360 Speaker 3: help each other, and to do that across silos is 597 00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:56,799 Speaker 3: got to be the cheapest way of creating a happier society. 598 00:35:57,320 --> 00:36:00,200 Speaker 1: I think that's very encouraging, you know, John, want to 599 00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:04,359 Speaker 1: thank you for joining me. I've always admired Gallop. They 600 00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:07,760 Speaker 1: do a remarkable job. I want to encourage our listeners 601 00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:11,959 Speaker 1: to read the World Happiness Support twenty twenty four, which 602 00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:16,640 Speaker 1: can be found by going to Worldhappiness Dot Report. Your 603 00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:20,879 Speaker 1: work is fascinating and groundbreaking, and I think we'd be 604 00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:27,200 Speaker 1: better off if our leaders understood that pursuing methodical efforts 605 00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:31,600 Speaker 1: at maximizing happiness in a very practical way might in 606 00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:34,880 Speaker 1: fact be the most effective health policy we could have. 607 00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:38,200 Speaker 1: And what you're doing is pioneering work, and I'm very 608 00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:41,319 Speaker 1: grateful that you would spend time with us talking about it. 609 00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:44,480 Speaker 3: It's a great pleasure and it's the sort of thing 610 00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:47,839 Speaker 3: I love talking about, and only by talking about it 611 00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:48,640 Speaker 3: can we spread it. 612 00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:54,919 Speaker 1: Thank you to my guest John Helliwell. You can get 613 00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:58,480 Speaker 1: a link to read the World Happiness Report twenty twenty 614 00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:02,600 Speaker 1: four on our show page at newtsworld dot com. News 615 00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:06,319 Speaker 1: World is produced by Gangrish three sixty and iHeartMedia. Our 616 00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:11,480 Speaker 1: executive producer is Guarnsey Sloan. Our researcher is Rachel Peterson. 617 00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:15,200 Speaker 1: The artwork for the show was created by Steve Penley. 618 00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:19,120 Speaker 1: Special thanks to the team at Gingrids three sixty. If 619 00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:21,560 Speaker 1: you've been enjoying Nutsworld, I hope you'll go to Apple 620 00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:24,759 Speaker 1: Podcasts and both rate us with five stars and give 621 00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:27,680 Speaker 1: us a review so others can learn what it's all about. 622 00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:31,360 Speaker 1: Right now, listeners of newts World can sign up for 623 00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:36,320 Speaker 1: my three free weekly columns at gingrichscree sixty dot com 624 00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:40,160 Speaker 1: slash newsletter. I'm newt Gingrich. This is Newtsworld.