1 00:00:07,280 --> 00:00:10,920 Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of Strictly Business, the podcast in 2 00:00:10,960 --> 00:00:13,320 Speaker 1: which we speak with some of the brightest minds working 3 00:00:13,360 --> 00:00:17,480 Speaker 1: in the media business today. I'm Andrew Wallenstein, chief media 4 00:00:17,520 --> 00:00:22,959 Speaker 1: analyst at Variety Intelligence Platform. The annual Game Developers Conference 5 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:26,040 Speaker 1: is under way this week in San Francisco. No better 6 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:28,600 Speaker 1: time to take the temperature of the industry than with 7 00:00:28,640 --> 00:00:31,479 Speaker 1: some of the most informed people on gaming I know. 8 00:00:32,120 --> 00:00:35,280 Speaker 1: So it's my pleasure to have as my guest Peter Levin, 9 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:38,600 Speaker 1: managing director and co founder of the Santa Monica based 10 00:00:38,680 --> 00:00:43,080 Speaker 1: venture capital firm Griffin Gaming Partners. He and his partners 11 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:46,280 Speaker 1: Nick Twasto and Phil Sanderson have a mass more than 12 00:00:46,479 --> 00:00:49,959 Speaker 1: one billion in assets under management in the gaming sphere, 13 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:54,720 Speaker 1: including Discord, Overwolf and fourte Games. Plus he knows the 14 00:00:54,760 --> 00:00:58,800 Speaker 1: world of entertainment quite well with stints at Lionsgate and 15 00:00:58,880 --> 00:01:01,720 Speaker 1: Legendary Entertainment, and has also had a hand in some 16 00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:08,000 Speaker 1: notable adaptations of gaming ip including Amazon's Fallout series. My 17 00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:13,040 Speaker 1: Variety Intelligence Platform colleague and gaming industry expert Corey Erickson 18 00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:16,480 Speaker 1: joins us for the discussion as well. We'll be back 19 00:01:16,520 --> 00:01:30,360 Speaker 1: with them in just a moment, and we are back 20 00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:33,760 Speaker 1: with Peter Levin and Corey Erickson. I know they're both 21 00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:36,440 Speaker 1: going to be at the Game Developers Conference, and so 22 00:01:37,240 --> 00:01:40,360 Speaker 1: I'm wondering what's on their mind in terms of what 23 00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:44,640 Speaker 1: is going to be the big theme or themes this week. Peter, 24 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:47,280 Speaker 1: I want to start with you. Thanks for joining. 25 00:01:47,080 --> 00:01:50,680 Speaker 2: Us, Thank you for having me. Guys. It's Peter. 26 00:01:51,280 --> 00:01:53,600 Speaker 1: What do you think is going to be top of 27 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:56,480 Speaker 1: mind for people assembled in San Francisco at the Game 28 00:01:56,480 --> 00:01:57,520 Speaker 1: Developers Conference? 29 00:01:58,120 --> 00:02:01,000 Speaker 2: Thank you for having me, guys. I appreciate you making 30 00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:04,520 Speaker 2: the time. Excited to chat with you leading into this 31 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:12,360 Speaker 2: week's Game Developers Conference. The GDC traditionally has been an 32 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:18,720 Speaker 2: arena within which you can tackle the established trends within industry, 33 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:22,799 Speaker 2: but also those that are emerging. There is a tendency 34 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:26,200 Speaker 2: at times to gravitate towards a hype cycle. I think 35 00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:29,560 Speaker 2: there is an AI hype cycle now that I think 36 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:33,600 Speaker 2: is somewhat plateaued versus perhaps over the last one to 37 00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:37,560 Speaker 2: two years, but nevertheless, it comes up in a majority 38 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:40,640 Speaker 2: of the conversations you're having, whether that's with a content 39 00:02:40,720 --> 00:02:43,799 Speaker 2: company or a platform or infrastructure player. So I think 40 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:47,280 Speaker 2: we're going to continue to see a bunch of conversations 41 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:51,560 Speaker 2: around AI, its impact on games development, its impact on 42 00:02:51,600 --> 00:02:55,160 Speaker 2: the picks and shovels businesses in and around games development. 43 00:02:55,760 --> 00:02:58,000 Speaker 3: Let's go into the AI of it all a little 44 00:02:58,040 --> 00:03:02,880 Speaker 3: bit more. In what way do you really see investors 45 00:03:02,919 --> 00:03:06,640 Speaker 3: taking an interest in generative AI's involvement in gaming versus 46 00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:09,800 Speaker 3: the sort of AI tech that's always been involved on 47 00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:10,800 Speaker 3: the gaming side of things. 48 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:15,040 Speaker 2: I think that's worth double clicking on. A gaming has 49 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:18,320 Speaker 2: always been tip of the spear in terms of adapting 50 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:23,520 Speaker 2: and adopting innovative technologies from enterprise software. So to your point, 51 00:03:23,639 --> 00:03:26,760 Speaker 2: AI has been prevalent in gaming for what fifteen plus years, 52 00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:29,760 Speaker 2: I mean just the non playable characters the NPCs within 53 00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:34,680 Speaker 2: Call of Duty alone, but in terms of how it 54 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:38,040 Speaker 2: is being embraced and how we're seeing it play a 55 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:41,520 Speaker 2: major role on the product roadmap going forward. Some of 56 00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:46,200 Speaker 2: the more obvious ways are the ability to limit some 57 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:48,320 Speaker 2: of the resources you have to deploy in terms of 58 00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:51,040 Speaker 2: the creation of art assets. So you'll still have to 59 00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:54,080 Speaker 2: create a bible if you will, of art assets and 60 00:03:54,280 --> 00:03:59,280 Speaker 2: architecture a sandbox, if you will, but AI can add 61 00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:03,000 Speaker 2: to that instead of having perhaps dozens, if not hundreds 62 00:04:03,040 --> 00:04:06,760 Speaker 2: of artists that are creating art assets. AI can aid 63 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:10,720 Speaker 2: and abet those efforts. Some of the ways we're very 64 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:15,400 Speaker 2: excited about the practical application of AI are manifesting in 65 00:04:15,480 --> 00:04:20,200 Speaker 2: things like customer acquisition, the ability to lever which social 66 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:23,160 Speaker 2: media platforms, for example, are the best environments within which 67 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:27,159 Speaker 2: to market to a certain customer, Which day parts, which demographic, 68 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:33,480 Speaker 2: which geography, ab testing those marketing strategies, leveraging AI things 69 00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:37,600 Speaker 2: like QA. You know, QA has been it's antiquated, it's 70 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:41,320 Speaker 2: been deployed in the same form factor for almost thirty years. 71 00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:44,880 Speaker 2: Oftentimes it's a lot of kids in their twenties. Perhaps 72 00:04:44,880 --> 00:04:47,120 Speaker 2: they're tired, they're in a bad mood, they're a bit hungover, 73 00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:50,400 Speaker 2: they're coming in. Those are your QA testers. Oftentimes that's 74 00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:53,480 Speaker 2: your cohort. Well. Now, to be able to leverage AI 75 00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:56,839 Speaker 2: to create efficiencies there, to be able to connect those 76 00:04:56,880 --> 00:04:59,760 Speaker 2: dots in a more cost effective and efficient manner. Those 77 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:02,440 Speaker 2: are the types of picks and shovels businesses that we're 78 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:04,039 Speaker 2: also equally as excited about. 79 00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:06,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, at g DC, it is a boon for a 80 00:05:06,839 --> 00:05:10,440 Speaker 3: lot of you know, teams of developers and independent developers 81 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:13,479 Speaker 3: to come and seek funding. Do you think you know, 82 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:17,200 Speaker 3: any given developers, you know, current use of AI for 83 00:05:17,320 --> 00:05:19,640 Speaker 3: a game they're working on is going to be integral 84 00:05:19,720 --> 00:05:21,960 Speaker 3: to getting you know, some of the financial interests involved. 85 00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:24,920 Speaker 2: I think it's almost the converse. I think people will 86 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:27,400 Speaker 2: look a bit sideways at you if you haven't baked 87 00:05:27,400 --> 00:05:31,040 Speaker 2: in you know, m L and AI into your product roadmap. 88 00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:34,159 Speaker 2: Because the tool sets are readily available, you have the 89 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:36,640 Speaker 2: ability to a b tests so much that is out there. 90 00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:40,920 Speaker 2: And you're also at a time within the cycle where 91 00:05:41,120 --> 00:05:43,880 Speaker 2: if you're a developer or even a publisher, a lot 92 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:46,040 Speaker 2: of these folks that are trying to raise capital on 93 00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:50,840 Speaker 2: the AI side of that conversation are offering you, you know, 94 00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:55,360 Speaker 2: very attractive onboarding costs because they're almost eating their own 95 00:05:55,440 --> 00:05:57,920 Speaker 2: young to be able to establish a customer base so 96 00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:01,040 Speaker 2: that they can create that escape velocity, that scale of 97 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:04,040 Speaker 2: their business. So it's an optimal time to be a 98 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:09,120 Speaker 2: developer or publisher and bake in the AI functionality withinto 99 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:11,560 Speaker 2: your product roadmap. So I think you again, you would 100 00:06:11,560 --> 00:06:14,240 Speaker 2: get a lot of sideways glances if you hadn't contemplated 101 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:16,839 Speaker 2: how can you leverage both the tools that are currently 102 00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:21,840 Speaker 2: offered within the marketplace and the prospective opportunity set going. 103 00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:24,800 Speaker 3: Forward, extending that to you know, some of the largest 104 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:28,000 Speaker 3: companies in the triple A space. Obviously, cost cutting and 105 00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:30,960 Speaker 3: layoffs were a big defining trend of twenty twenty four, 106 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:34,320 Speaker 3: still somewhat of a defining trend, you know, in this 107 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:38,000 Speaker 3: early part of twenty twenty five. Do you think, you know, 108 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:41,560 Speaker 3: these use cases for AI are just as integral to 109 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:44,400 Speaker 3: larger companies or is there you know, more of a 110 00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:50,599 Speaker 3: significant issue with working around copyrights, working around engineers and 111 00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:53,280 Speaker 3: game designers who might not be as crazy you know, 112 00:06:53,440 --> 00:06:55,599 Speaker 3: about incorporating AI into their systems. 113 00:06:56,680 --> 00:06:59,680 Speaker 2: Well, I think if they're not crazy about it, I 114 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:02,719 Speaker 2: that that's going to happen with or without their sentiment. Okay, 115 00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:06,440 Speaker 2: And one of the things I say this jently and 116 00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:11,600 Speaker 2: lightly and certainly not celebrating the eradication of anyone's jobs, 117 00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:16,760 Speaker 2: but gaming traditionally has been much more akin to enterprise 118 00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:20,000 Speaker 2: software with respect to recognizing when they need to trim 119 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:23,040 Speaker 2: the fat, and legacy media has been horrible at that, 120 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:25,600 Speaker 2: as evidenced by you can drive on any of the 121 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:27,920 Speaker 2: lots right now and you're going to see high rise 122 00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:29,640 Speaker 2: buildings and you're going to scratch your head and say 123 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:34,360 Speaker 2: what exactly do those thousands of people do within that building? 124 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:36,840 Speaker 2: Or you drive by the music labels in Santa Monica 125 00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:40,680 Speaker 2: and oftentimes queer yourself, why exactly do they need that 126 00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:44,000 Speaker 2: many people to run a music business. In the current 127 00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 2: state of play, I think gaming has been a bit 128 00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:50,000 Speaker 2: more self aware and quite frankly, a bit more mercenary 129 00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:53,760 Speaker 2: about the ability to shed that weight when necessary and 130 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:56,840 Speaker 2: adopting those bleeding edge technologies. I think a lot of 131 00:07:56,840 --> 00:08:00,480 Speaker 2: that comes from in years past. Prior to now gaming 132 00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:03,880 Speaker 2: is somewhat king of the hill. In years past, it 133 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:07,280 Speaker 2: had to be a scrappy industry. You know, margins were volatile. 134 00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:10,720 Speaker 2: You know, you never knew you know, where that quote 135 00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:13,200 Speaker 2: unquote next paycheck was going to come from. And so 136 00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:16,280 Speaker 2: being able to flex that muscle and to get lean 137 00:08:16,320 --> 00:08:18,800 Speaker 2: when you needed to came very naturally to the games industry. 138 00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:21,720 Speaker 2: I also do think again, some of that comes from 139 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:25,400 Speaker 2: the crossover between enterprise software and the DNA of enterprise 140 00:08:25,440 --> 00:08:26,760 Speaker 2: software into gaming. 141 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:31,880 Speaker 3: Speaking to volatility, going into this GDC conference, you know, 142 00:08:32,040 --> 00:08:34,880 Speaker 3: what do you see as the more optimistic trains of 143 00:08:34,920 --> 00:08:37,520 Speaker 3: thoughts and trends that are going to be you know, 144 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:40,320 Speaker 3: defining the experience, whether it is in you know, the 145 00:08:40,320 --> 00:08:42,720 Speaker 3: triple A console, PC sector or mobile. 146 00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:45,560 Speaker 2: You know, I wear two hats, right, So there's part 147 00:08:45,559 --> 00:08:48,760 Speaker 2: of me that celebrates a bumpy market and when things 148 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:52,600 Speaker 2: get more challenging because as an investor, that chases away 149 00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:55,160 Speaker 2: a lot of what we call tourist capital. And there 150 00:08:55,160 --> 00:08:58,440 Speaker 2: were years just coming out of COVID twenty one twenty two, 151 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:01,920 Speaker 2: for example, there was so much taurus capital that got 152 00:09:01,960 --> 00:09:05,480 Speaker 2: attracted to gaming. It artificially inflated a lot of valuations, 153 00:09:05,480 --> 00:09:09,680 Speaker 2: and we found it very hard as an allocator to 154 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:12,440 Speaker 2: underwrite businesses. We were not going to debase ourselves from 155 00:09:12,480 --> 00:09:16,840 Speaker 2: our discipline, and so the zenith moments at times are 156 00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:22,920 Speaker 2: more challenging as an investor. In terms of this year's GDC, however, 157 00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:26,280 Speaker 2: there's a lot of conversation around what's going on in 158 00:09:26,280 --> 00:09:29,760 Speaker 2: the console space. You know, we're between consoles yet at 159 00:09:29,800 --> 00:09:32,719 Speaker 2: the same time, depending on who you believe at any 160 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:35,400 Speaker 2: given moment, you know, GTA six is coming out this year, 161 00:09:35,880 --> 00:09:40,679 Speaker 2: and you also have the launch of Switch to and 162 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:44,480 Speaker 2: as someone who can't get enough of the Switch and 163 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:47,560 Speaker 2: everything you know, Me, Moto and Nintendo bring to the market, 164 00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:51,280 Speaker 2: there's a tremendous amount of excitement around that console, that 165 00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:54,240 Speaker 2: piece of hardware as well. So I think there's a 166 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:57,760 Speaker 2: lot of conversation on the triple A level around launch titles, 167 00:09:58,520 --> 00:10:02,160 Speaker 2: around DLC, around existing titles and what will that suite 168 00:10:02,160 --> 00:10:05,360 Speaker 2: of launch titles look like. There continues to be growth 169 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:09,160 Speaker 2: in mobile. There continues to be growth in emerging markets, 170 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:11,520 Speaker 2: you know that are less sexy to talk about, but 171 00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:15,080 Speaker 2: when you look at markets like the Indian subcontinent, Middle East, 172 00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:18,840 Speaker 2: North Africa, Southeast Asia for example, just continues to be explosive. 173 00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:23,400 Speaker 2: Africa proper, and even parts of Latin America. You've got 174 00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:26,160 Speaker 2: Brazil where regulation is lifting up for the first time 175 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:29,240 Speaker 2: in a very long time. More attractive to external capital, 176 00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:32,640 Speaker 2: you know, certainly as again as an investor that's been 177 00:10:32,679 --> 00:10:37,560 Speaker 2: a gatekeeper no longer Mexico, Columbia, et cetera. So I 178 00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:41,880 Speaker 2: think emerging markets are incredibly exciting, but also the demographics 179 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:45,200 Speaker 2: amount mobile doesn't get talked about enough in our opinion. 180 00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:49,240 Speaker 2: You know, females do comprise fifty percent of that cohort, 181 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:53,520 Speaker 2: and they control actually more spend on the mobile platform. 182 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:56,120 Speaker 2: So there's going to be more and more growth there, 183 00:10:56,679 --> 00:11:01,959 Speaker 2: more product offerings, to that consuming constituency being the female. 184 00:11:02,040 --> 00:11:04,920 Speaker 2: So I think there continues to be excitement around that more. 185 00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:09,000 Speaker 2: You know, venture dollars being deployed against female founders is. 186 00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:12,360 Speaker 3: The basis of this mobile growth in emerging markets, you know, 187 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:17,079 Speaker 3: tied to continued smartphone proliferation, i e. There still aren't 188 00:11:17,080 --> 00:11:19,480 Speaker 3: as many smartphones in places of the world as there 189 00:11:19,520 --> 00:11:19,880 Speaker 3: can be. 190 00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:23,120 Speaker 2: Correct and I think India is a great example of that. Right, 191 00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:25,600 Speaker 2: So you've got Reliance and Geo who got in there 192 00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:29,040 Speaker 2: and really changed the contours of that market almost overnight. 193 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:34,800 Speaker 2: So you traditionally had a demographic with very little disposable income, 194 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:38,160 Speaker 2: you know, an inability to embrace a spending model that 195 00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:41,840 Speaker 2: would be attractive to developers and publishers. You know, turn 196 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:44,679 Speaker 2: around and now you've got Geo and you've got Reliance 197 00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:49,520 Speaker 2: deploying a lot of dollars against attracting a younger demographic 198 00:11:49,559 --> 00:11:54,720 Speaker 2: with more disposable income. Product form factors are a rising 199 00:11:54,720 --> 00:11:57,920 Speaker 2: above the noise. Advertising is pay is playing a large 200 00:11:57,960 --> 00:12:01,600 Speaker 2: role there and so we see sim are signal coming 201 00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:04,560 Speaker 2: out of places like you know, North Africa and Africa proper. 202 00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:07,880 Speaker 2: I think that's a ways off, at least from being underwriteable, 203 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:10,160 Speaker 2: but there's a lot of folks who kind of have 204 00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:13,800 Speaker 2: trained the eye of Saurron, if you will, towards that 205 00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:16,600 Speaker 2: market with a great deal of interest, because the numbers 206 00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:21,160 Speaker 2: are gob smacking, the demographics are gobsmacking, and that applies 207 00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:22,920 Speaker 2: to Middle East North Africa as well. There are markets 208 00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:25,480 Speaker 2: in the Middle East where seventy percent of the population 209 00:12:25,559 --> 00:12:27,880 Speaker 2: is under the age of thirty and they're all gaming. 210 00:12:28,320 --> 00:12:33,760 Speaker 3: What about Europe, I've noticed within Griffin's investment portfolio you've 211 00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:37,760 Speaker 3: invested some money into both Finnish and Swedish gaming studios 212 00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:38,520 Speaker 3: as of late. 213 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:42,679 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean we're all over Europe, Western Europe, Northern Europe. Look, 214 00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:45,920 Speaker 2: I've been to Finland fifty six times. Are One of 215 00:12:45,960 --> 00:12:50,040 Speaker 2: our most recent investments was a bit odd out of Helsinki, 216 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:53,800 Speaker 2: las Lehento, who was one of the co founders of Supercel. 217 00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:56,320 Speaker 2: You know, he was one of the creative geniuses behind 218 00:12:56,360 --> 00:13:00,199 Speaker 2: Clash of Clans. You know, we'll continue to invest in 219 00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:03,480 Speaker 2: markets like that, you know, very bullish on the talent 220 00:13:03,520 --> 00:13:07,640 Speaker 2: that's coming out of the UK, Spain, Italy, France and 221 00:13:07,679 --> 00:13:10,080 Speaker 2: France is a little more challenging just because of labor laws. 222 00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:14,160 Speaker 2: But we've invested there as well, so we continue to 223 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:18,200 Speaker 2: be excited about Western and Northern Europe. 224 00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:20,800 Speaker 3: I want to bring up one finish company, Remedy Games, 225 00:13:21,360 --> 00:13:23,240 Speaker 3: just because they were the subject of one of the 226 00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:26,240 Speaker 3: more interesting deals in gaming to come about last year 227 00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:28,800 Speaker 3: where they struck a deal with an A Picture Anapurna 228 00:13:28,880 --> 00:13:32,120 Speaker 3: Pictures here in Hollywood to you know, invest money into 229 00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:36,240 Speaker 3: their own sequel, Control Too, in exchange for exclusive rights 230 00:13:36,280 --> 00:13:38,760 Speaker 3: to the Control and Alan wakeyps for the film and 231 00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:42,520 Speaker 3: TV side. Do you see a deal like that, as 232 00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:45,440 Speaker 3: you know, a more progressive example of how Hollywood and 233 00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:47,000 Speaker 3: gaming can work in tandem with each other. 234 00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:50,320 Speaker 2: I think it's a great example of thinking outside of 235 00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:52,800 Speaker 2: the box, and I think you're going to continue to 236 00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:57,720 Speaker 2: see both communities trying to figure out how to play together. 237 00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:02,240 Speaker 2: I think a large driver of that is on the 238 00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:05,600 Speaker 2: more legacy media side. On the traditional media side, you 239 00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:09,200 Speaker 2: have folks who now grew up playing games, and they're 240 00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:12,840 Speaker 2: passionate about those games that they grew up playing, and 241 00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:15,800 Speaker 2: so there's a much deeper understanding about the media form 242 00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:19,720 Speaker 2: factor versus just an antiseptic look at oh wow, look 243 00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:22,760 Speaker 2: how many units that game sold, right, or look at 244 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:26,360 Speaker 2: how many eyeballs are on this title, versus you've got 245 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:31,840 Speaker 2: showrunners and writers and producers and directors and CEOs and 246 00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:35,440 Speaker 2: C suite management that grew up obsessed with games, you know, 247 00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:38,320 Speaker 2: as obsessed with the generation prior perhaps were with reading 248 00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:42,400 Speaker 2: books or comic books or graphic novels and whatnot. So 249 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:45,360 Speaker 2: I think that's a huge driver of folks trying to 250 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:49,280 Speaker 2: bridge the gap. You can't ignore the fact that gaming 251 00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:54,200 Speaker 2: is larger than music, movies, and publishing combined. And if 252 00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:57,120 Speaker 2: anyone is looking at that data, they're going to come 253 00:14:57,120 --> 00:15:00,520 Speaker 2: to the conclusion that, hey, this is a this is 254 00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:05,400 Speaker 2: a compelling demographic for us to engage. This is a 255 00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:07,920 Speaker 2: wonderful way to tell stories. And if you just look 256 00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:12,280 Speaker 2: at the track record over the past five years, everything 257 00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:16,640 Speaker 2: from you know, big titles like Super Mario Grand Turismo, 258 00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:20,080 Speaker 2: Five Nights at Freddy's, you know, to what is It 259 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:22,240 Speaker 2: The Gangs of London, you know, and some of the 260 00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:25,600 Speaker 2: more indie titles that are out there. Sonic continues to perform. 261 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:28,520 Speaker 2: You now have world class writers being attracted to these 262 00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:31,000 Speaker 2: ips because again they grew up obsessed playing the games. 263 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:33,240 Speaker 2: You have talent, you know that just want to be 264 00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:34,640 Speaker 2: able to show their kids. Hey, I was in a 265 00:15:34,680 --> 00:15:37,600 Speaker 2: Sonic movie because they love the game or their kids, 266 00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:39,680 Speaker 2: you know, love the game. So I think there's a 267 00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:42,560 Speaker 2: genuine appetite to try to figure out how to play 268 00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:44,440 Speaker 2: together more holistically. 269 00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:47,760 Speaker 1: We'll be back in just a moment with more with 270 00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:48,520 Speaker 1: Peter Levin. 271 00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:49,640 Speaker 2: Stick around. 272 00:15:56,120 --> 00:16:00,640 Speaker 1: And we are back with Peter Levin from Griffin Gaming Partners. 273 00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:05,960 Speaker 1: He's in conversation with Corey Erickson a variety intelligence platform 274 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:08,440 Speaker 1: and we have been talking about the state of the 275 00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:13,800 Speaker 1: gaming business the occasion of the Game Developers Conference. Peter, 276 00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:17,600 Speaker 1: if you could talk a bit more, you've hopscotching the 277 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:22,280 Speaker 1: globe with us talking about various markets. Give a sense 278 00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:26,440 Speaker 1: if you could, about the state of emerging markets out there. 279 00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:29,800 Speaker 1: What is catching your eye and how does it inform 280 00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:31,280 Speaker 1: your investing strategy. 281 00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:35,480 Speaker 2: You knows as mentioned some of the markets that have 282 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:39,200 Speaker 2: percolated to the top for US, Middle East, North Africa. 283 00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:43,480 Speaker 2: There's a tremendous amount of activity there, both from an 284 00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:48,120 Speaker 2: investing into the sector orientation, but also the demographics and 285 00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:52,000 Speaker 2: the consumption patterns cannot be ignored when you look at 286 00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:54,160 Speaker 2: and that's a cross platform by the way, that's not 287 00:16:55,520 --> 00:16:58,960 Speaker 2: discrete to mobile or PC or console, which is also 288 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:03,240 Speaker 2: a fascinating pair of time. You've got an entire youth 289 00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:06,439 Speaker 2: that are engaged in gaming, many of whom would like 290 00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:09,880 Speaker 2: to pursue a career in gaming, many of whom currently 291 00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:14,240 Speaker 2: have to either attend university in Western Europe or North America. 292 00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:16,639 Speaker 2: So I think that's also changing. I think you're seeing 293 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:20,840 Speaker 2: more and more of these markets embrace university curriculum so 294 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:23,199 Speaker 2: that they can. Northern Europe is a great example of that, 295 00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:25,160 Speaker 2: as is Western Europe, but Northern Europe is a great 296 00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:32,120 Speaker 2: example of introducing the curriculum so that kids locally, students locally, 297 00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:35,520 Speaker 2: you know, find themselves with an option to a career 298 00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:38,000 Speaker 2: path within gaming. So you're seeing more and more of 299 00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:41,879 Speaker 2: that happen in markets like Middle East, North Africa and 300 00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:46,880 Speaker 2: again Africa proper. The year numbers are incredible. You've got 301 00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:50,000 Speaker 2: the telco players, whether that's the mittals or the mtns 302 00:17:50,119 --> 00:17:53,199 Speaker 2: or the vodaphones. You know, they're looking at what some 303 00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:56,120 Speaker 2: of the other carriers have done in markets like North 304 00:17:56,160 --> 00:17:58,359 Speaker 2: America where they've left a lot of money on the table. 305 00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:01,160 Speaker 2: You know the fact that these carriers really don't participate 306 00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:05,480 Speaker 2: in these markets in the economics you've got Google gobbling up, 307 00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:08,679 Speaker 2: and you've got obviously Apple and iOS gobbling up their share. 308 00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:12,800 Speaker 2: But at some point these carriers become self commoditizing, big 309 00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:16,119 Speaker 2: fat pipes. And that's a mistake that I think in 310 00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:18,160 Speaker 2: a lot of emerging markets they would like to fix. 311 00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:20,840 Speaker 2: So they're going to invest directly into content. They want 312 00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:22,880 Speaker 2: more skin in the game, they want a more intimate 313 00:18:22,920 --> 00:18:25,520 Speaker 2: relationship with that consuming demographic. 314 00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:29,280 Speaker 3: And do you think the talent coming from emerging markets 315 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:32,399 Speaker 3: is going to be you know, pivotal in getting you know, 316 00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:35,520 Speaker 3: some bigger companies back on track with more consistent release 317 00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:39,000 Speaker 3: pipelines and you know, instead of spending five or even 318 00:18:39,040 --> 00:18:42,800 Speaker 3: more years stuck in sort of endless development cycles for 319 00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:45,960 Speaker 3: you know, some of the bigger Triple A Games is 320 00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:49,919 Speaker 3: investing in smaller developers going to sort of be the 321 00:18:50,080 --> 00:18:51,760 Speaker 3: way to get a more bounced pipeline. 322 00:18:51,760 --> 00:18:54,639 Speaker 2: Again, I think that's the hope, that's the aspiration. I 323 00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:57,680 Speaker 2: think part of the challenge. You can look at anomalist 324 00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:01,560 Speaker 2: you know, outlying markets like Turkey for example. This less 325 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:04,119 Speaker 2: relevant for Triple A Corey, but you know, if you 326 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:06,280 Speaker 2: look at Turkey and how they punch above their weight 327 00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:09,840 Speaker 2: and mobile just an incredible work ethic there. It's an 328 00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:14,280 Speaker 2: incredible talent pool, very much stemming from companies like Peak 329 00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:17,720 Speaker 2: and Graham Selling exiting to Zinga. You know, Peak for 330 00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:20,640 Speaker 2: one point eight billion. I believe those teams once their 331 00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:23,840 Speaker 2: non competes were up, you had the founding teams spinning 332 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:27,159 Speaker 2: up new studios. We saw things very similar happen in 333 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:30,520 Speaker 2: markets like Finland. Israel's another market where we see this 334 00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:33,560 Speaker 2: happen constantly. I think you are going to see that 335 00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:37,000 Speaker 2: start to happen more frequently with Triple A. But there's 336 00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:39,400 Speaker 2: a question mark in emerging markets because of the point 337 00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:41,600 Speaker 2: I brought up earlier, which is I think you do 338 00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:45,880 Speaker 2: have to have a path to learning at a local 339 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:50,760 Speaker 2: university and so that kids can attend school. They can 340 00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:55,280 Speaker 2: they can hone their skills, whether that's on the development side, 341 00:19:55,320 --> 00:19:58,520 Speaker 2: the publishing side, the marketing side. They can start businesses 342 00:19:58,560 --> 00:20:01,359 Speaker 2: up locally, they can attract town because right now you 343 00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:04,439 Speaker 2: see a lot of expats in emerging markets, and I 344 00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:08,120 Speaker 2: think that's one way you know, to address the opportunity. 345 00:20:08,359 --> 00:20:10,520 Speaker 2: But at some point you have to have local talent. 346 00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:16,760 Speaker 2: It's less expensive. They understand not just the localization of content, 347 00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:20,640 Speaker 2: but the culturalization of content, which is a much harder 348 00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:21,720 Speaker 2: needle to threat. 349 00:20:22,359 --> 00:20:24,560 Speaker 3: Speaking to gaming in the Middle East, one of the 350 00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:27,199 Speaker 3: biggest investors in the space is Savvy Games Group. You know, 351 00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:31,879 Speaker 3: they're part of Saudi Arabia's public investment fund. They acquired 352 00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:35,680 Speaker 3: scope Lee for close to five billion in twenty twenty three, 353 00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:38,480 Speaker 3: and scope Lee just of course, is in the process 354 00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:43,399 Speaker 3: of acquiring Niantics gaming assets, including Pokemon Go. Do you 355 00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:48,240 Speaker 3: see you know, MNA seeing more of a resurgence again 356 00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:50,160 Speaker 3: in the gaming space, you know, coming out of this 357 00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:53,720 Speaker 3: out of the past two years of extensive layoffs, similar 358 00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:56,760 Speaker 3: to sort of after twenty twenty when we saw a 359 00:20:56,760 --> 00:20:59,520 Speaker 3: lot of you know, very busy and high activity in 360 00:20:59,520 --> 00:20:59,919 Speaker 3: the space. 361 00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:02,119 Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't. I'm not sure one has anything to 362 00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:04,479 Speaker 2: do with the other. I think you're going to continue 363 00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:06,919 Speaker 2: to see layoffs in the industry if the industry feels 364 00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:10,240 Speaker 2: like there are inefficiencies, and I think that's healthy. I 365 00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:12,399 Speaker 2: think again, as you know, as as I referenced, I 366 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:16,240 Speaker 2: think gaming has always had a a self aware, healthy 367 00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:21,240 Speaker 2: lens through which it looks at kind of trimming the fat, 368 00:21:21,320 --> 00:21:25,720 Speaker 2: you know, the M and A. Depending on whether that's 369 00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:29,080 Speaker 2: early stage or growth or you know, at large scale, 370 00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:30,960 Speaker 2: you're going to continue to see M and A as 371 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:33,960 Speaker 2: new actors entered the theater. Right You recently had Netflix 372 00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:38,040 Speaker 2: purchased their fifth game studio actually out of Helsinki, Next Games, 373 00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:41,240 Speaker 2: and by the way, Next Games two of their big titles, 374 00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:44,320 Speaker 2: two of their the two big titles they had in 375 00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:47,720 Speaker 2: their portfolio were The Walking Dead and Stranger Things, you know, 376 00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:52,280 Speaker 2: both established brand ips. I think Netflix bought them, you know, 377 00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:55,000 Speaker 2: for that reason. So you're going to continue to see 378 00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:57,760 Speaker 2: whether it's the netflixes of the world. You know, does 379 00:21:57,840 --> 00:22:01,119 Speaker 2: Roku jump into the fray? Will the other streaming platforms 380 00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:03,320 Speaker 2: have to jump into the fray? You know, they certainly 381 00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:06,280 Speaker 2: don't want to drive people off platform to engage gaming 382 00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:10,280 Speaker 2: elsewhere because the reacquisition of those customers is expensive. It's 383 00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:15,560 Speaker 2: prohibitive the telcos do they become a viable buyer down 384 00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:18,639 Speaker 2: the road. Certainly, Internationally, you're hearing more and more rumblings 385 00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:22,960 Speaker 2: along those lines. So you've got Discord, you know, as 386 00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:25,520 Speaker 2: announced I think it was yesterday or the day before 387 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:28,080 Speaker 2: or at the end of last week, exploring the public 388 00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:32,080 Speaker 2: markets and interviewing bankers for a potential IPO. So you're 389 00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:35,359 Speaker 2: going to see potentially more liquidity there, you know that 390 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:37,240 Speaker 2: they'll get to play with I mean, Scopoley is just 391 00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:41,320 Speaker 2: to look, we're investors in scope Lee. Full disclosure would 392 00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:42,960 Speaker 2: have been great if they waited a couple of months 393 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:46,080 Speaker 2: to sell as Monopoly Goo came out, you know, just 394 00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:49,760 Speaker 2: a couple of months after that that sale closed. But 395 00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:54,560 Speaker 2: just a great story of a team that scaled intelligently, 396 00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:58,520 Speaker 2: some really sharp m and a along the way. So 397 00:22:58,520 --> 00:22:59,960 Speaker 2: I think you're going to continue to see that. 398 00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:04,200 Speaker 3: Yes, you mentioned Netflix earlier. Yeah, Netflix has built out 399 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:07,119 Speaker 3: its studios, you know, within its gaming division and a 400 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:09,800 Speaker 3: launch into games around twenty twenty one. But in the 401 00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:12,560 Speaker 3: same breath, Netflix also shut down, you know, its own 402 00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:15,360 Speaker 3: Triple A IP it had been working on not too 403 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:19,159 Speaker 3: long ago. Do you do you see that, as you know, 404 00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:22,000 Speaker 3: evidence of difficulty in the market to really get you know, 405 00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:25,520 Speaker 3: sort of top shelf Triple A games as well as 406 00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:27,880 Speaker 3: you know, some of the bigger live services out the door, 407 00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:30,280 Speaker 3: or you know, is this just a kind of typical 408 00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:33,000 Speaker 3: Netflix thing of them wanting to try to do everything 409 00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:35,480 Speaker 3: and you know, struggling to realize it's not that simple. 410 00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:39,240 Speaker 2: Mike takes a little different I think if I look 411 00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:41,320 Speaker 2: at what Google did with Stadia for example. It didn't 412 00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:45,359 Speaker 2: work out. Was it a shot on goal worth taking? Absolutely? 413 00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:48,159 Speaker 2: Will they continue to take shots on goal and gaming 414 00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:51,200 Speaker 2: without a doubt They have to. It's just too big 415 00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:53,119 Speaker 2: of an audience. There's too much money on the table. 416 00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:57,000 Speaker 2: I think similarly with Netflix, I commend them for taking 417 00:23:57,040 --> 00:24:01,280 Speaker 2: the shot on goal. I think they and folks like 418 00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:05,119 Speaker 2: Google and folks like Microsoft again do a better job 419 00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:08,720 Speaker 2: of shelving projects if they're not working out and not 420 00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:12,240 Speaker 2: continuing to throw good money after bad and they'll continue 421 00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:14,040 Speaker 2: to try to problem solve. I think they have to, 422 00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:16,760 Speaker 2: you know, there's no way around it, and that's a 423 00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:19,560 Speaker 2: great thing for us in our position within the industry. 424 00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:22,439 Speaker 2: But I also think it's great for the consumer to 425 00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:25,879 Speaker 2: be able to be on platform and to you know, 426 00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:30,520 Speaker 2: stream longer form content, shorter form content, serialize content, and gaming. 427 00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:33,880 Speaker 2: It makes all the sense in the world. So I'm 428 00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:36,960 Speaker 2: not going to fault them for shutting down you know, 429 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:41,639 Speaker 2: triple A first party intellectual property. I give them credit 430 00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:43,480 Speaker 2: for taking the shot on goal. I give them credit 431 00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:46,320 Speaker 2: for putting a bullet in the head you know of it, 432 00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:49,880 Speaker 2: you know, before it became a drag and I look 433 00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:51,920 Speaker 2: forward to, you know, what they're going to bring next. 434 00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:54,440 Speaker 2: They're smart folks over there. You know, there's a reason 435 00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:56,160 Speaker 2: why they've been able to do what they've been able 436 00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:59,600 Speaker 2: to do. So certainly not counting them out, and you know, 437 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:02,440 Speaker 2: streating my master's degree in the obvious, it's also a 438 00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:05,080 Speaker 2: very good thing for someone in my position to have 439 00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:07,399 Speaker 2: another buyer out there in the market. So we're certainly 440 00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:08,200 Speaker 2: rooting for them. 441 00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:10,639 Speaker 3: And it does help to have a three hundred million 442 00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:14,440 Speaker 3: global subscribers versus you know, Stadia having to start from scratch. 443 00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:18,399 Speaker 2: It without a doubt. And I think that's what I 444 00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:20,320 Speaker 2: meant at the top of the call, where I at 445 00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:23,479 Speaker 2: the top of the conversation, where I think folks are 446 00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:25,959 Speaker 2: going to come at this with different form factors and 447 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:28,639 Speaker 2: that's okay. I think there's going to be a lot 448 00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:32,600 Speaker 2: of ab testing in the market that as well is okay. 449 00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:35,240 Speaker 2: That is really good for the consumer. Let's find out 450 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:38,000 Speaker 2: where there's going to be traction. You know, we never 451 00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:40,320 Speaker 2: know where that's going to come from. But having folks 452 00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:44,040 Speaker 2: like this getting active in our backyard is a good thing. 453 00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:46,640 Speaker 2: They're making the endemics look small, you know. I think 454 00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:48,760 Speaker 2: at the end of the day. That's really good for 455 00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:49,520 Speaker 2: the end user. 456 00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:52,440 Speaker 3: I want to go back to, you know, the Hollywood 457 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:55,520 Speaker 3: element of this current gaming moment we're in. You mentioned, 458 00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:58,879 Speaker 3: you know, Five Nights of Freddy's before as an example 459 00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:02,560 Speaker 3: of a successful trans of gaming IP to the movie space. 460 00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:07,640 Speaker 3: What was the process that led to Russell Binder, who 461 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:12,640 Speaker 3: is involved extensively with that franchise, into joining Griffin as 462 00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:14,280 Speaker 3: a venture partner an IP advisor. 463 00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:16,560 Speaker 2: That was a no brainer. I mean, I think we 464 00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:21,920 Speaker 2: strive to bring on whether they're venture partners, IP advisors, 465 00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:27,199 Speaker 2: operating partners, an elite class of human and he's, in 466 00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:29,160 Speaker 2: my eyes, he's kind of one of one. He's been 467 00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:31,880 Speaker 2: doing this for so very, very long. He really does 468 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:35,879 Speaker 2: understand this hub spoke model. And traditionally that hub was 469 00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:38,720 Speaker 2: either a film or a television series, and the spoke 470 00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:43,520 Speaker 2: would be the toyatak adaptation, the licensing and merchandising, the podcast, 471 00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:46,840 Speaker 2: the comic book, the graphic novel, the game. The inversion 472 00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:49,800 Speaker 2: of that has taken place, and Russell has embraced it 473 00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:54,719 Speaker 2: quite frankly out of necessity, you know, more so than 474 00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:58,000 Speaker 2: out of opportunity, and I like that that scrappy nature 475 00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:01,719 Speaker 2: you know when I stumbled upon Rovio very early on, 476 00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:04,280 Speaker 2: before it was even known to be a thing here 477 00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:06,719 Speaker 2: in the States. Only because again I was one of 478 00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:10,800 Speaker 2: my fifty six trips over to Finland, I founded early on. 479 00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:13,080 Speaker 2: I was able to get introduced to the founders of 480 00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:16,080 Speaker 2: that company. They were kind enough to invite me in 481 00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:18,840 Speaker 2: as a small investor and advisor, And my first phone 482 00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:22,919 Speaker 2: call from Helsinki from Finland was to Russell Binder and 483 00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:24,760 Speaker 2: I said, Russell, I think I'm about to hand you 484 00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:27,159 Speaker 2: the biggest piece of business you've never heard of. And 485 00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:29,400 Speaker 2: within a year that guy had created a billion dollar 486 00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:35,000 Speaker 2: plus licensing a merchandise program. So I think having that fortitude, 487 00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:39,920 Speaker 2: that trust as well from those on the other side 488 00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:43,120 Speaker 2: of the conversation is mission critical. You know, when you've 489 00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:47,320 Speaker 2: spent decades as someone thriving in the licensing and merchandise 490 00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:49,359 Speaker 2: side of the business, that could be a swarmy end 491 00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:52,560 Speaker 2: of the pool. You know, that's where forensic accountants get involved. 492 00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:55,480 Speaker 2: And you know, Russell's a stand up person with a 493 00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:58,359 Speaker 2: reputation really unlike anyone else out there. But he also 494 00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:02,360 Speaker 2: now has a track record of creating unbelievably contemplative programs 495 00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:05,200 Speaker 2: around some of the world's biggest ip. We're talking Hunger 496 00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:08,600 Speaker 2: Games and Twilight and the Walking Dead and Angry Birds. 497 00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:10,960 Speaker 2: You know, what he's done with Five Nights is just 498 00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:14,240 Speaker 2: incredible and it's a great ip you know at the 499 00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:15,880 Speaker 2: heart of it, but it is a bit of that 500 00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:18,960 Speaker 2: inversion of the hub and spoke model. 501 00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:21,520 Speaker 3: And it's also worth mentioning Five Nights at Freddy's does 502 00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:25,159 Speaker 3: have a sequel do this December again from Universal. But 503 00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:28,280 Speaker 3: before then we have April twenty twenty five, which is 504 00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:32,280 Speaker 3: going to be huge for adaptations of gaming IP. We 505 00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:36,080 Speaker 3: have a Minecraft movie from Warner Brothers out the first 506 00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:39,680 Speaker 3: weekend of April. That's I think pretty expensive. The budget 507 00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:42,480 Speaker 3: is reportedly around one hundred and fifty million, but it's 508 00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:45,160 Speaker 3: also with Jack Black comedy, so that's one example on 509 00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:47,080 Speaker 3: the film side at sort of the big budget level. 510 00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:49,960 Speaker 3: Then the next week, The Last of Us returns on 511 00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:52,400 Speaker 3: HBO with a little bit of a smaller season, seven 512 00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:55,120 Speaker 3: episodes this time instead of the nine episodes of the 513 00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:57,840 Speaker 3: debut season. And then towards the end of the month, 514 00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:01,040 Speaker 3: we have Sony's Until Dawn, which you know comes from 515 00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:04,640 Speaker 3: their own Until Dawn game in twenty fifteen. That was 516 00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:09,200 Speaker 3: also remade last year. Do you think between those three 517 00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:13,160 Speaker 3: adaptations that represents a pretty you know, diverse approach to 518 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:16,720 Speaker 3: adapting different gaming ip at the Hollywood level, or do 519 00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:19,680 Speaker 3: you still think there's more that hasn't really been tapped 520 00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:20,280 Speaker 3: into yet. 521 00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:23,320 Speaker 2: I think there's tons more that hasn't been tapped into yet, 522 00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:26,640 Speaker 2: which is super exciting, you know. I think a lot 523 00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:29,800 Speaker 2: of what has been where there has been energy deployed, 524 00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:32,840 Speaker 2: are the titles that we're all very familiar with, right, 525 00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:38,800 Speaker 2: So everybody knows Minecraft, you know, when you look at 526 00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:41,440 Speaker 2: the Last of Us, probably lesser known. I don't want 527 00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:43,920 Speaker 2: to put Minecraft and the Last of Us in the 528 00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:48,040 Speaker 2: same basket and bucket, but lots of folks familiar with 529 00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:50,520 Speaker 2: Last of Us. You know, if you were looking at, hey, 530 00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:54,560 Speaker 2: let's adapt you know, the top ten ips on a 531 00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:56,959 Speaker 2: given sales chart, you know back in the day, right, 532 00:29:56,960 --> 00:30:00,480 Speaker 2: that's why Warcraft the movie got made and almost watchable 533 00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:02,160 Speaker 2: movie back in the day, you know, but for China 534 00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:04,480 Speaker 2: that movie would have been write off. You know. The 535 00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:09,360 Speaker 2: Chinese saved that movie at the box office. But I'm 536 00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:13,440 Speaker 2: not dismissive of what you know, this year's slate of 537 00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:17,920 Speaker 2: adaptations can do. I think it's phenomenal. But to your question, 538 00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:21,040 Speaker 2: I think it's equally as exciting some of the genres 539 00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:23,120 Speaker 2: that have been untapped. You know, if you look at 540 00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:26,160 Speaker 2: again just the size of the female cohort on mobile 541 00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:28,640 Speaker 2: and the types of games that they're engaged in, some 542 00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:33,360 Speaker 2: of which have really rich stories and developed characters and 543 00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:38,280 Speaker 2: a menagerie of characters ensembles, if you will, that I 544 00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:40,600 Speaker 2: think these could be adapted, you know, whether those are 545 00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:43,600 Speaker 2: kind of late night rom comms or more you know, 546 00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:46,960 Speaker 2: evening soap opera type of fair that you find on 547 00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:53,200 Speaker 2: streaming platforms or podcasts, or adapted into you know, publishing vehicles. 548 00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:57,240 Speaker 2: You know, I think that's an area that's the less obvious, 549 00:30:57,360 --> 00:31:00,720 Speaker 2: less sexy, but the numbers are are tremendous and not 550 00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:03,840 Speaker 2: to be ignored. And I think that's just one of many, 551 00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:08,160 Speaker 2: many of the genres and even those kind of crossover 552 00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:10,640 Speaker 2: genres that I think you're going to continue to see 553 00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:16,920 Speaker 2: being tapped into. You know, I think what Netflix has 554 00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:20,920 Speaker 2: been able to do, you know, with its portfolio of 555 00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:24,160 Speaker 2: games intellectual property and how it plays with it even 556 00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:27,480 Speaker 2: from you know, the documentary side of some of the 557 00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:31,959 Speaker 2: vehicles that they've created, when you talk to, you know, 558 00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:35,320 Speaker 2: the execs out there from the legacy media side, again, 559 00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:39,760 Speaker 2: whether that's the showrunners or the producers, you know, writers, directors, 560 00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:44,320 Speaker 2: you know, executives, that there is a recognition now that 561 00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:47,720 Speaker 2: this is a force to be reckoned with. And I 562 00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:51,320 Speaker 2: do think the conversation around tapping into some of these 563 00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:55,960 Speaker 2: lesser explored geographies within the gaming landscape are going to 564 00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:58,640 Speaker 2: start to happen. And I know that just because even 565 00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:01,000 Speaker 2: within our own portfolio, we have companies that are being 566 00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:04,240 Speaker 2: approached by you know, traditional media companies that in years 567 00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:06,640 Speaker 2: past they never would have been. And these are left 568 00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:10,760 Speaker 2: of center eyps, you know that skew to a more 569 00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:14,920 Speaker 2: exotic demographic, if you will, then just middle of the 570 00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:17,680 Speaker 2: fair way, you know, kind of last of us look 571 00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:20,400 Speaker 2: fallout as someone who played a you know, a fun 572 00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:23,360 Speaker 2: role in helping to architect that that was a little 573 00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:25,520 Speaker 2: more obvious to play with. I think some of the 574 00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:27,240 Speaker 2: things you're going to see kind of round two, in 575 00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:29,720 Speaker 2: Round three and years going forward are going to be 576 00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:33,640 Speaker 2: some of these more quote unquote niche genres and sub 577 00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:36,720 Speaker 2: genres whose audience is actually eclipse, you know, some of 578 00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:42,680 Speaker 2: the more mainstream, you know, kind of testosterone injected ips 579 00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:44,120 Speaker 2: that we continue to see adapted. 580 00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:47,200 Speaker 3: Lastly, let's touch upon the reverse of that. You know, 581 00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:49,160 Speaker 3: if you look at a company like Warner Brothers Games, 582 00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:51,959 Speaker 3: they're sort of the perfect example of the duality of 583 00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:55,840 Speaker 3: getting Hollywood IP into the gaming space successfully and unsuccessfully. 584 00:32:56,920 --> 00:33:00,720 Speaker 3: They had Hogwarts Legacy in twenty twenty three, success was 585 00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:02,479 Speaker 3: the best selling game of the year. It beat Call 586 00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:05,960 Speaker 3: of Duty, which typically only Rockstar games do that. Yeah, 587 00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:08,200 Speaker 3: but then a year later, of course we get Suicide 588 00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:12,240 Speaker 3: Squad killed. The Justice League lost about two hundred million 589 00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:14,280 Speaker 3: on the gaming side of Warner Brothers and of course 590 00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:18,120 Speaker 3: Warner Brothers Games has shut down three studios. What do 591 00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:23,120 Speaker 3: you think is crucial to working with Hollywood IP, you know, 592 00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:26,480 Speaker 3: tied around its own games in a way that doesn't 593 00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:29,640 Speaker 3: you know, drag things out in a year's long process, 594 00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:33,240 Speaker 3: and you know, scares Hollywood away from licensing games out. 595 00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:35,880 Speaker 2: I think it's case by case. I think when you 596 00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:38,800 Speaker 2: look at you know, Warner Discovery, there's a lot of 597 00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:43,440 Speaker 2: debt there. The market is looking at that business through 598 00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:47,920 Speaker 2: a very discipline lens. When you see the success of 599 00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:51,360 Speaker 2: Hogwarts Legacy, that that game did eight hundred million in 600 00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:55,200 Speaker 2: the first week of launch, and so regardless of what 601 00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:59,120 Speaker 2: Suic's suicide squad was able to do, that division, if 602 00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:01,640 Speaker 2: you will, was very much in the black. They've done 603 00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:05,120 Speaker 2: an incredible job. What David hadad did there, you know, 604 00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:09,800 Speaker 2: during his tenure, during his reign was absolutely amazing. Both 605 00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:14,839 Speaker 2: some very very well thought out m and a over 606 00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:21,120 Speaker 2: the years, a ton of endemic development amongst the internal 607 00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:24,960 Speaker 2: studios that they had both grown and scaled, and then 608 00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:27,560 Speaker 2: coupled to some of the acquisitions that they had made 609 00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:29,919 Speaker 2: over the years. But so much of that corey early 610 00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:32,920 Speaker 2: on came from the support that they had from corporate 611 00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:36,480 Speaker 2: and you had guys like Jeff Pucus and Kevin Sujihara 612 00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:39,720 Speaker 2: who really believed in the future of gaming and allowed 613 00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:42,440 Speaker 2: for someone like David to build out a portfolio of 614 00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:45,840 Speaker 2: games and put him on par with the other parts 615 00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:49,320 Speaker 2: of that business, film and television and licensing and merchandise 616 00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:55,760 Speaker 2: and whatnot. I think now the rigor with which Warner 617 00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:59,080 Speaker 2: Discovery has to perform, you know, with that kind of 618 00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:02,439 Speaker 2: overhang of debt and the way the market is scrutinizing them, 619 00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:06,920 Speaker 2: that's just going to be a different look than you know, hopefully, 620 00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:12,560 Speaker 2: when David Ellison and his team close on paramount. You know, 621 00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:15,640 Speaker 2: David someone who cares greatly about games, and you know 622 00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:18,279 Speaker 2: they have been vocal about that, and they have that 623 00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:20,560 Speaker 2: d and they screamed that DNA. I think they're going 624 00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:24,480 Speaker 2: to have a much different orientation towards gaming. They're going 625 00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:27,600 Speaker 2: to have a longer runway to play with. I think 626 00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:30,400 Speaker 2: the market will look at them them differently, So I 627 00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:33,600 Speaker 2: don't think it's one size fits all. And I think 628 00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:36,759 Speaker 2: if you look at Disney, for example, just look at 629 00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:39,040 Speaker 2: the success of Disney Rivals, look at the success of 630 00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:42,879 Speaker 2: I'm Sorry, Marvel Rivals and Marvel Snap. You know, these 631 00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:45,919 Speaker 2: are both two incredible adaptations of the IP and much 632 00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:48,960 Speaker 2: different form factors. You look at their recent investment one 633 00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:51,719 Speaker 2: point five billion into Epic. You know, I think the 634 00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:54,120 Speaker 2: times have changed. There was twenty five ish years where 635 00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:57,839 Speaker 2: Disney was just licensing out. They were leaving billions of 636 00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:01,960 Speaker 2: potential revenue on the table because they didn't want to 637 00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:06,239 Speaker 2: take that risk. And you know, now I think you've 638 00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:10,000 Speaker 2: got legacy media looking at the opportunity set of being 639 00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:14,160 Speaker 2: able to engage with that that demographic, that end user, 640 00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:17,920 Speaker 2: having a relationship there, capturing the majority of those economics. 641 00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:21,000 Speaker 2: But I couldn't imagine being a steward of the IP 642 00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:27,800 Speaker 2: that Disney owns, right, Disney, Proper, Pixar, Lucasfilm, you know, Fox, Marvel, 643 00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:32,040 Speaker 2: and not just not only not capturing the line share 644 00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:33,960 Speaker 2: of those economics, but also not having any of that 645 00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:37,480 Speaker 2: data because you've licensed out to a third party. So 646 00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:42,160 Speaker 2: I think that dynamic is changing significantly. And again I 647 00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:44,120 Speaker 2: think that's going to in nerd of the benefit of 648 00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:47,360 Speaker 2: the end user, of the gamer, of the consumer and so. 649 00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:49,879 Speaker 2: But it's not a one size fits all, So it's 650 00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:52,240 Speaker 2: tough for me. I at least can't paint the industry 651 00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:54,640 Speaker 2: with a macro brush. Couldn't be more. Look as the 652 00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:57,120 Speaker 2: guy who helped get John Wick in to Fortnite, you know, 653 00:36:57,160 --> 00:36:59,600 Speaker 2: I had a blast doing that. I think it was 654 00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:03,840 Speaker 2: one of the earlier and better adaptations or integrations, I 655 00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:07,400 Speaker 2: should say, of a Hollywood ip quote unquote into a 656 00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:10,560 Speaker 2: gaming universe. But we were really self aware at Lion Skate, 657 00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:13,520 Speaker 2: like we knew we knew at that point in time 658 00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:16,560 Speaker 2: what Fortnite brought to the table was a lot more 659 00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:18,400 Speaker 2: valuable to us than what we were bringing to the 660 00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:22,440 Speaker 2: table for them with John Wick, right, that that generated 661 00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:25,320 Speaker 2: something like four hundred million hours of gameplay in the 662 00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:27,760 Speaker 2: week leading up to the release of John Wick three 663 00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:30,359 Speaker 2: for a studio the size Alliance Gate. You know, you 664 00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:33,399 Speaker 2: couldn't buy that kind of marketing, like you just didn't 665 00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:38,080 Speaker 2: have the budget to play. So I think these symbiotic relationships, 666 00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:43,239 Speaker 2: you know, these mutually aligned interest models going forward, are 667 00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:44,839 Speaker 2: going to be what you're going to see much more 668 00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:50,200 Speaker 2: of versus this traditional licensee license or dynamic where somebody 669 00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:53,360 Speaker 2: always felt like they were left holding the bag. And 670 00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:56,000 Speaker 2: I think those days, honestly are gaune and you have 671 00:37:56,040 --> 00:37:58,320 Speaker 2: folks that would love to, hey, let's put one plus 672 00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:01,320 Speaker 2: one together and maybe we'll get five, six or seven 673 00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:05,440 Speaker 2: out of it if we respect the brand equity, you 674 00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:07,799 Speaker 2: know that Hubspoke model again at the kernel of this, 675 00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:11,480 Speaker 2: and treat that audience with respect. You know, Let's not 676 00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:14,320 Speaker 2: push a game out, you know, before it's ready for primetime. 677 00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:16,560 Speaker 2: There's no need to do it. And I always reference 678 00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:19,680 Speaker 2: back to Nintendo sixty four Golden Eye. People forget that 679 00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:23,440 Speaker 2: game came out twenty months after the movie and it's 680 00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:25,600 Speaker 2: still regarded as one of the best license ips in 681 00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:28,880 Speaker 2: the history of licensed ip. And that was just Nintendo 682 00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:31,600 Speaker 2: having the confidence to say this thing ain't going live 683 00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:34,320 Speaker 2: until it's ready for primetime. Like the early days of Blizzard. 684 00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:36,880 Speaker 2: You know, that was their mantra. We're not going to 685 00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:39,120 Speaker 2: push it into the market until it's ready for primetime. 686 00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:43,040 Speaker 2: So I think you're seeing aligned interests in a way 687 00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:45,480 Speaker 2: we've never seen before, and I think that's going to 688 00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:47,279 Speaker 2: be fantastic for the end user. 689 00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:50,120 Speaker 3: Well, thank you so much for joining Andy and I today, Peter, 690 00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:50,759 Speaker 3: it's been great. 691 00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:57,840 Speaker 2: Thank you appreciate the time. Guys, thanks for listening. Be 692 00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:00,920 Speaker 2: sure to leave us a review at Apple Podcasts or 693 00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:04,440 Speaker 2: Amazon Music. We love to hear from listeners. Please go 694 00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:07,200 Speaker 2: to Variety dot com and sign up for the free 695 00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:11,400 Speaker 2: weekly Strictly Business newsletter, and don't forget to tune in 696 00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:14,800 Speaker 2: next week for another episode of Strictly Business.