WEBVTT - Yolk with Doak 6: George Thomas 0:00:00.280 --> 0:00:03.160 Welcome back to part two of the latest episode of 0:00:03.200 --> 0:00:06.880 The Yoke with Doak. In this three part episode, we 0:00:06.960 --> 0:00:10.400 talk with Tom Doak and his associate to Eric Iverson, 0:00:10.840 --> 0:00:15.400 Brian Schneider, as well as shapers Kai Golby and Blake Conan. 0:00:16.000 --> 0:00:18.639 If you haven't listened to part one of the podcasts 0:00:18.640 --> 0:00:22.639 where we detail how Renaissance golf design works, check it out. 0:00:23.440 --> 0:00:26.159 In this episode, we talk about George Thomas and the 0:00:26.200 --> 0:00:30.000 work that Renaissance has done at Iconic bel Air Country Club. 0:00:30.760 --> 0:00:34.000 I've put together some before and after comparisons on the 0:00:34.040 --> 0:00:38.280 website on the podcast page that should help the listening experience, 0:00:38.680 --> 0:00:42.199 So check that out at the fried egg dot com 0:00:42.240 --> 0:00:47.040 backslash podcasts and you should see a variety of old 0:00:47.159 --> 0:00:52.040 aerols and then before and after photos. Enjoy this podcast 0:00:52.200 --> 0:00:56.000 and look for part three to come out on Wednesday 0:00:56.240 --> 0:01:01.240 of this week. Thanks. 0:01:05.600 --> 0:01:08.559 Tom Doak is back and as usual he's not holding back. 0:01:10.959 --> 0:01:13.800 But don't toss the yolk and. 0:01:13.760 --> 0:01:16.560 The famously candied Doak doesn't pull any punches. 0:01:17.880 --> 0:01:21.320 How do I make natural looking contour here of the 0:01:21.360 --> 0:01:22.600 biggest pool in the village. 0:01:22.640 --> 0:01:24.919 I told him to make it flat first? 0:01:24.959 --> 0:01:30.200 Overrated, underrated, rough, terribly overrated over the years. 0:01:37.560 --> 0:01:40.840 Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to part two of the 0:01:40.920 --> 0:01:45.680 Latest Yoke with Doak. On this episode, we've still got 0:01:45.680 --> 0:01:50.040 the Renaissance Golf team with us. We've got Tom as always, 0:01:50.160 --> 0:01:55.680 Eric Iverson, Blake Conant, Kai Golby, and Brian Schneider and 0:01:56.200 --> 0:02:01.120 for this edition, we are talking about their current project 0:02:01.120 --> 0:02:05.560 at bell Air Country Club, George Thomas, the architect and 0:02:05.800 --> 0:02:09.560 Southern California Golf. Tom Welcome back. 0:02:10.200 --> 0:02:11.919 Thanks Andy. Nice to be at bell Air. 0:02:12.320 --> 0:02:14.560 Yeah, still nice to be. 0:02:14.600 --> 0:02:16.200 Here, even with the rain. 0:02:16.880 --> 0:02:19.520 This is the first day, I'm told, you know this 0:02:19.600 --> 0:02:21.600 is It's January. I'm told this is the first day 0:02:21.600 --> 0:02:23.519 it's rained at LA since last March. 0:02:25.120 --> 0:02:29.520 I escaped Chicago winter, and it the day before I 0:02:29.560 --> 0:02:31.760 came out here was like the first day above ten 0:02:31.800 --> 0:02:34.359 degrees and ten days or something like that. 0:02:35.000 --> 0:02:38.120 I escaped Charleston winter. There was about five inches of 0:02:38.160 --> 0:02:39.680 snow on the ground when I left yesterday. 0:02:40.160 --> 0:02:43.320 I don't feel bad for you. It's sixty today, I'm told. 0:02:44.400 --> 0:02:47.240 But then I looked at the forecast, I'm like, wait, rain. 0:02:48.639 --> 0:02:52.960 So to kick this podcast off, I think it'd be 0:02:53.000 --> 0:02:57.280 great for everybody to learn a little bit about George Thomas, 0:02:57.320 --> 0:03:01.120 the architect, you know, a revered architect that didn't do 0:03:01.160 --> 0:03:03.680 a lot of work. So Tom tell us a little 0:03:03.720 --> 0:03:05.440 bit about who George Thomas was. 0:03:07.400 --> 0:03:12.320 Well, he's an architect that's really well known, even though 0:03:12.320 --> 0:03:14.720 he only did a few courses, which has a lot 0:03:14.760 --> 0:03:16.400 to do with the fact that he wrote one of 0:03:16.440 --> 0:03:20.640 the great books on golf course architecture back in nineteen 0:03:20.680 --> 0:03:28.119 twenty seven. He grew up in Philadelphia. Family was from 0:03:28.160 --> 0:03:34.480 back East, and he was a good golfer, good amateur player, 0:03:35.040 --> 0:03:39.920 and was buddies and played golf all the time with 0:03:40.840 --> 0:03:44.960 a bunch of guys who are now famous as golf 0:03:44.960 --> 0:03:51.720 course architects Aw Tilling Hast, George Crump who built Pine Valley, 0:03:54.160 --> 0:03:59.240 Hugh Wilson who built Marion, William Flynn who followed up 0:03:59.280 --> 0:04:01.680 Wilson and Mary and then built a lot of the 0:04:01.720 --> 0:04:06.520 best courses around Philadelphia. They were just all golfers, like 0:04:06.880 --> 0:04:09.800 this group sitting with me today that you know, like 0:04:09.880 --> 0:04:12.800 to play golf together and talk about architecture back when 0:04:12.840 --> 0:04:16.159 it wasn't really a thing, and just why this golf 0:04:16.160 --> 0:04:18.920 course isn't good enough. We should we should do something 0:04:19.000 --> 0:04:22.039 better than this. And then they wound up going out 0:04:22.080 --> 0:04:25.200 and doing it. You know, each of them on his own. 0:04:26.480 --> 0:04:29.440 All of them had a little input into Pine Valley 0:04:29.440 --> 0:04:34.680 and what Crump did at Pine Valley, and then Thomas 0:04:35.160 --> 0:04:38.559 Thomas his first I guess he was like a green 0:04:38.640 --> 0:04:40.720 chairman at one of the clubs in Philadelphia that Donald 0:04:40.760 --> 0:04:43.440 Ross built. So that's how he learned something about how 0:04:43.480 --> 0:04:46.279 you build a golf course. And his first project on 0:04:46.360 --> 0:04:48.680 his own, or maybe a second, was to go out 0:04:48.720 --> 0:04:52.880 and build a course on his family's farm, which is 0:04:53.080 --> 0:04:55.040 Brian You know what course that is now? Like oh, 0:04:55.120 --> 0:04:57.280 White merch Valley, White Mersh Valley where they used to 0:04:57.279 --> 0:05:00.520 have the tour event in the sixties and seventies, little 0:05:00.520 --> 0:05:02.360 thing now I can't when you go there now, it's 0:05:02.400 --> 0:05:04.320 hard to imagine they had a tour event because it's 0:05:04.320 --> 0:05:07.960 on like one hundred and ten acres. It's really tight 0:05:08.000 --> 0:05:09.760 and there's there's one hole that the green is right 0:05:09.800 --> 0:05:11.919 next to the road. I don't know how they played 0:05:11.960 --> 0:05:14.039 that for a tour event. I don't know if they 0:05:14.120 --> 0:05:18.279 closed the road or what. So he did that, but 0:05:18.400 --> 0:05:22.359 then I don't know exactly what circumstances. But right after 0:05:22.400 --> 0:05:24.800 the end of World War One, after he got back 0:05:24.839 --> 0:05:27.760 from serving in World War One, he came to California 0:05:27.800 --> 0:05:32.400 instead of staying back in Philadelphia, and so he came 0:05:32.440 --> 0:05:37.839 to Los Angeles just as California was starting to boom, 0:05:38.320 --> 0:05:42.400 and when most of this area and now that's so 0:05:42.520 --> 0:05:47.400 incredibly developed, was incredibly undeveloped. I mean, you look at 0:05:47.400 --> 0:05:51.119 pictures of the land that they built La Country Club 0:05:51.160 --> 0:05:54.840 on in nineteen twenty and it was like a ranch 0:05:54.920 --> 0:06:00.800 in Colorado, just no buildings of any kind for four 0:06:00.839 --> 0:06:04.599 miles in any direction, and you know, it's it's so 0:06:04.760 --> 0:06:09.040 hard to imagine now. And then bell Air, the first 0:06:09.120 --> 0:06:13.240 version of you know bell Air. Originally he was going 0:06:13.279 --> 0:06:17.280 to have holes where the Front nine is and then 0:06:17.360 --> 0:06:20.919 holes south of where the Front nine is, which is 0:06:20.960 --> 0:06:26.000 the UCLA campus. And just as they were starting to 0:06:26.400 --> 0:06:32.640 get the project finally planned out and go ahead and 0:06:32.680 --> 0:06:36.640 do it, the landowners said, no, no, well I gave 0:06:36.680 --> 0:06:39.400 some of that land to them to build a university, 0:06:40.120 --> 0:06:44.039 so we don't have that anymore. So, you know, for 0:06:44.080 --> 0:06:45.800 a while, they didn't know if they had enough land 0:06:45.839 --> 0:06:48.200 to bild eighteen holes. And then he found another canyon 0:06:48.200 --> 0:06:53.560 and said, oh, we'll use that canyon there. So it 0:06:53.680 --> 0:06:56.640 was the wild West of golf course design, and he was, 0:06:57.600 --> 0:07:00.760 you know, in on the ground floor, and you know, 0:07:01.120 --> 0:07:03.200 had his chance to pick from some of the best 0:07:03.200 --> 0:07:08.919 topography in the West and build three great golf courses 0:07:08.920 --> 0:07:13.920 that still exist and a handful of others that have 0:07:14.000 --> 0:07:18.080 been badly abused or wiped out completely for other development. 0:07:18.680 --> 0:07:22.560 But La Country Club and bel Air and Riviera are 0:07:22.680 --> 0:07:24.960 still revered as some of the best golf course in 0:07:25.000 --> 0:07:25.720 the United States. 0:07:27.120 --> 0:07:32.600 So with the guys they started with in Philadelphia, Tilling 0:07:32.720 --> 0:07:37.240 asked William Flynn, Hugh Wilson, and you look at the 0:07:37.360 --> 0:07:41.120 resume of courses, and these are some of the courses 0:07:41.200 --> 0:07:45.400 that have best stood the test of time. What would 0:07:45.440 --> 0:07:46.840 you attribute that to. 0:07:49.600 --> 0:07:54.040 I think they had really good foresight in planning them 0:07:54.360 --> 0:08:00.880 and to some degree and given them enough space that 0:08:00.960 --> 0:08:04.520 they didn't become obsolete as the game grew. They weren't 0:08:04.520 --> 0:08:07.880 so tight together that they were a safety issue or 0:08:07.880 --> 0:08:11.040 a liability issue, and you weren't hitting it out onto 0:08:11.080 --> 0:08:13.560 the street, and they had to change the whole thing. 0:08:13.560 --> 0:08:15.400 And then they didn't have enough land to change the 0:08:15.440 --> 0:08:17.800 whole thing. So you know, that's the golf course that 0:08:17.840 --> 0:08:21.679 becomes a mall instead of stay in a golf course. 0:08:22.600 --> 0:08:26.560 You know, some of the Golden Age thing is I 0:08:26.600 --> 0:08:29.320 think the reason we review all those courses from that 0:08:29.480 --> 0:08:32.840 certain time is there's no question when they built the courses, 0:08:32.840 --> 0:08:36.520 they were building them for the really good amateur player. 0:08:38.559 --> 0:08:41.000 They didn't think so much about pro golf in nineteen twenty. 0:08:41.000 --> 0:08:43.839 They thought about the really good amateur player, which was 0:08:44.000 --> 0:08:46.840 Bobby Jones, but it was also themselves. I mean, all 0:08:46.880 --> 0:08:49.120 these guys were talking about were really good players and 0:08:49.200 --> 0:08:52.560 playing a US amateurs and whatever else. And the funny 0:08:52.559 --> 0:08:55.800 thing is, at that time, to build a really good 0:08:55.800 --> 0:08:59.000 golf course for a top flight amateur, you would build 0:08:59.040 --> 0:09:04.040 a sixty five hunder yard golf course. And today those 0:09:04.080 --> 0:09:07.920 sixty five hundred yard tees are the teas that appeal 0:09:08.040 --> 0:09:13.320 to guys that are interested in golf but aren't scratch players. 0:09:13.360 --> 0:09:16.600 They're the five or ten handicappers that love golf and 0:09:16.679 --> 0:09:19.240 support golf financially, and there's a lot more of them 0:09:19.760 --> 0:09:24.760 than there are scratch players. So now all these older 0:09:24.800 --> 0:09:28.600 courses that were built for scratch players are really popular 0:09:28.640 --> 0:09:33.440 golf courses for a much bigger mass of people then 0:09:33.480 --> 0:09:35.520 would have appreciated them, and you know, they'd have been 0:09:35.559 --> 0:09:39.360 way too hard for the ten handicappers in nineteen twenty, 0:09:40.320 --> 0:09:42.320 but they work just great for them now. 0:09:44.000 --> 0:09:48.000 So a Thomas question that we got from Steven Britton, 0:09:48.760 --> 0:09:53.479 he asks. In George Thomas's book Golf Course Golf Architecture 0:09:53.480 --> 0:09:57.960 in America, he mentions a typical course should set up 0:09:57.960 --> 0:10:02.200 as follows two part five, one reachable in two and 0:10:02.240 --> 0:10:06.800 the other not reachable into five par threes ranging from 0:10:07.160 --> 0:10:12.120 longwood to wedge, eleven par fours, four long holes, four 0:10:12.160 --> 0:10:16.160 medium holes, three short holes, which would be driver chip. 0:10:16.640 --> 0:10:19.319 He says, this seems like a really fun setup to me. 0:10:20.000 --> 0:10:23.600 Have you taken any of that idea into your own design? 0:10:25.880 --> 0:10:29.520 I don't have. I don't have that much of a 0:10:29.600 --> 0:10:32.760 formula in mind. I mean I have a broader range 0:10:32.840 --> 0:10:35.400 of I don't care what par works out to seventy 0:10:35.480 --> 0:10:39.920 or seventy two. You know, it's kind of like, what's 0:10:40.600 --> 0:10:42.960 what's happening when I fit this together? I know, if 0:10:43.000 --> 0:10:45.040 I build up, you know, if I if I do 0:10:45.160 --> 0:10:47.400 a routing and it's par sixty eight and now the 0:10:47.400 --> 0:10:49.800 client's not gonna like that, I'm I have to go 0:10:49.840 --> 0:10:52.920 work on that some more. But but other than that, 0:10:53.080 --> 0:10:56.600 I'm not as you know, like I built out of 0:10:56.800 --> 0:11:00.520 thirty five golf courses, I've built maybe seven or eight 0:11:00.600 --> 0:11:02.840 that had more than four part three's. Like Thomas said 0:11:02.840 --> 0:11:05.400 he would build five par threes, So I'm not opposed 0:11:05.440 --> 0:11:06.400 to that, but. 0:11:06.400 --> 0:11:08.040 I'm not looking to do it either. 0:11:09.960 --> 0:11:12.080 And the funny thing is, I don't think like George 0:11:12.120 --> 0:11:17.800 Thomas didn't necessarily feel entirely responsible to follow his own guidelines. 0:11:18.200 --> 0:11:23.240 Bel Air does have five par threes, it has three 0:11:23.280 --> 0:11:25.280 par fives to make up for it, so it's still 0:11:25.280 --> 0:11:26.480 a par seventy golf course. 0:11:26.720 --> 0:11:30.040 Would do those numbers, sorry, Briant. Those only add up 0:11:30.080 --> 0:11:34.120 to sixteen holes though, eleven par four's, three par three's 0:11:34.160 --> 0:11:34.600 and two. 0:11:34.440 --> 0:11:38.600 Part five fives up to par sixty nine though, yeah, 0:11:39.080 --> 0:11:39.360 up to. 0:11:39.320 --> 0:11:40.079 Par sixty nine. 0:11:40.120 --> 0:11:44.280 If you read closely, and he didn't actually build any 0:11:44.320 --> 0:11:45.320 par sixty nine. 0:11:45.200 --> 0:11:50.400 Golf courses, maybe that's a you know, a flaw like 0:11:50.920 --> 0:11:52.520 it's supposed to be par sixty nine. 0:11:52.559 --> 0:11:55.079 More well, one of the things that he did believe 0:11:56.120 --> 0:11:59.240 pretty strongly. And you only have to go look at 0:11:59.280 --> 0:12:02.360 these three golf RSUs bel Air and La country Club 0:12:02.400 --> 0:12:08.360 and Riviera to see it is the first two holes 0:12:08.920 --> 0:12:12.320 are they're either both par fives, or one's a par 0:12:12.520 --> 0:12:15.160 five and one's a really long part four. That was 0:12:15.200 --> 0:12:18.400 probably a par five in the day, and you know 0:12:18.440 --> 0:12:20.480 it's just it's four seventy, so now they call it 0:12:20.520 --> 0:12:21.000 a part four. 0:12:21.600 --> 0:12:23.959 So he started out with two long. 0:12:23.760 --> 0:12:29.680 Holes on all of his best courses, and you know, 0:12:29.880 --> 0:12:33.120 he talked about the first hole especially. You know, he 0:12:33.200 --> 0:12:35.440 thought in terms of match play, so he thought of 0:12:35.520 --> 0:12:37.920 the first hall as a first hal and potentially the 0:12:38.040 --> 0:12:41.320 nineteenth hall. So he described the first hole as being 0:12:41.400 --> 0:12:44.640 like it's a par five for the first time around, 0:12:45.440 --> 0:12:48.120 and you want to make birdie on it, but it's 0:12:48.120 --> 0:12:51.680 a comfortable part five. But if you get back around 0:12:51.679 --> 0:12:53.840 and you're all square in the match at the end, 0:12:54.640 --> 0:12:57.080 now somebody's got to make four on this hole. You know, 0:12:57.120 --> 0:12:59.040 if you don't make four, you're probably going to lose. 0:13:00.080 --> 0:13:03.800 So you know, that was very strong in his thinking. 0:13:03.840 --> 0:13:06.240 And all three of these courses start out the same 0:13:06.280 --> 0:13:09.320 way that the holes aren't exactly the same, but you do. 0:13:09.840 --> 0:13:11.680 You have the par five right out of the blocks, 0:13:11.760 --> 0:13:14.320 and it's a fairly short par five, and the next 0:13:14.320 --> 0:13:14.640 hole is. 0:13:14.640 --> 0:13:18.319 A bear of a par four unless the USGA comes 0:13:18.320 --> 0:13:21.560 in and changes it to four, like they did at 0:13:21.559 --> 0:13:25.000 the USAM this year, but that's another subject for another day. 0:13:25.160 --> 0:13:27.920 Ben Vennon wants to know why did George Thomas build 0:13:28.000 --> 0:13:29.280 so few golf courses. 0:13:30.440 --> 0:13:34.080 He built a little more than people think, and they're gone, 0:13:34.240 --> 0:13:37.800 you know. I think he probably built. 0:13:38.320 --> 0:13:41.200 Twelve or fifteen golf courses in southern California, and there's 0:13:41.240 --> 0:13:46.560 only like six or eight of them left now, you know. 0:13:46.600 --> 0:13:50.400 And some of them are the munis that are You 0:13:50.440 --> 0:13:52.800 can barely tell who designed them or that there was 0:13:52.840 --> 0:13:56.280 any design quality in them at all, because so little 0:13:56.320 --> 0:13:57.239 of it's left. 0:13:58.880 --> 0:14:01.240 But I think I think he did so few because 0:14:01.280 --> 0:14:01.760 he didn't. 0:14:02.600 --> 0:14:05.600 I mean, I I don't know his biography well enough 0:14:05.640 --> 0:14:07.839 to know. I've read Jeff Sackel for his biography, but 0:14:07.840 --> 0:14:09.520 it's been a while since I really read all the 0:14:09.559 --> 0:14:15.160 personal stuff. He didn't travel very far, so he didn't, 0:14:15.160 --> 0:14:17.880 you know. He wasn't like McKenzie working all over the 0:14:17.920 --> 0:14:21.000 globe and spending three days on somewhere and then going 0:14:21.040 --> 0:14:21.800 away and never. 0:14:21.640 --> 0:14:24.040 Seeing it again. I mean, what he did do. 0:14:24.960 --> 0:14:27.400 Was close to home, and he stuck around and spent 0:14:27.520 --> 0:14:30.200 time on which is part of the reason they all 0:14:30.200 --> 0:14:33.800 turned out so good. But so but he worked in 0:14:33.840 --> 0:14:38.480 a fairly limited area and really only from nineteen twenty 0:14:38.560 --> 0:14:43.160 to he died in nineteen thirty two, so he didn't 0:14:43.200 --> 0:14:45.240 have that long of an active career. 0:14:45.960 --> 0:14:49.000 He I think I remember reading that he was really 0:14:49.520 --> 0:14:52.160 like his family was really wealthy too, so it wasn't 0:14:52.200 --> 0:14:54.360 like a business kind of like McDonald, he didn't need 0:14:54.400 --> 0:14:56.960 to do design for a business. 0:14:56.600 --> 0:14:57.960 Right right, Yeah? 0:14:58.360 --> 0:15:04.440 So, uh, Jordan Benson wants to know how did the 0:15:04.600 --> 0:15:06.840 bel Air job come about? 0:15:09.320 --> 0:15:12.240 That's an interesting story. I was doing an interview for. 0:15:13.840 --> 0:15:17.880 The second volume of the Confidential Guide that covers, you know, 0:15:17.960 --> 0:15:21.520 all the California courses as part of the Americas, but 0:15:21.960 --> 0:15:23.800 you know the places that you can play in the Winner, 0:15:23.840 --> 0:15:27.640 so California is part of that. And I think it 0:15:27.680 --> 0:15:30.320 was with Rand Morrisset from Golf Clubattles. I can't remember 0:15:30.360 --> 0:15:33.520 for sure, but somebody asked me, so, if you could 0:15:33.880 --> 0:15:37.760 renovate any one of the golf courses in this book, 0:15:37.800 --> 0:15:41.240 what one would you do? And you know, I've learned 0:15:41.280 --> 0:15:46.600 over the years, don't answer those questions because because somebody 0:15:46.640 --> 0:15:48.600 is the consultant there now and they're not going to 0:15:48.640 --> 0:15:49.680 appreciate it very much. 0:15:50.360 --> 0:15:53.160 And and I'm not really I don't campaign for work. 0:15:53.360 --> 0:15:56.480 I mean, we consult a lot of places. We get 0:15:56.480 --> 0:15:58.880 a lot of calls about consulting. So I don't think 0:15:59.160 --> 0:16:01.280 I want to consult there. I want to poach that 0:16:01.360 --> 0:16:03.880 job away from whoever's there. I never try to do that. 0:16:05.320 --> 0:16:07.480 But because it was a friend asking me the question, 0:16:07.520 --> 0:16:10.000 I just blurted out, bel air, you know, I just 0:16:10.280 --> 0:16:12.720 it's one of the coolest routings that I've ever seen, 0:16:12.840 --> 0:16:14.760 and it just seems like it's a mess. 0:16:14.480 --> 0:16:18.440 Now and I don't understand the direction that they're going. 0:16:19.160 --> 0:16:22.680 And I said that absolutely, not thinking that I was 0:16:23.320 --> 0:16:26.040 they were going to call me about it, because I 0:16:26.040 --> 0:16:28.640 didn't think I knew anybody here. I had only played 0:16:28.640 --> 0:16:32.320 the golf course twice and not for fifteen or twenty years, 0:16:33.000 --> 0:16:34.560 and I, as far as I knew, I didn't know 0:16:34.600 --> 0:16:37.400 any members. In fact, I knew two members on the 0:16:37.400 --> 0:16:42.360 Green Committee, and the next Green Committee meeting, they both 0:16:42.400 --> 0:16:44.360 took that interview and plopped it down on the desk 0:16:44.400 --> 0:16:45.240 and said, why aren't we. 0:16:45.200 --> 0:16:46.680 Talking to this guy? 0:16:46.840 --> 0:16:48.760 You know, we're getting ready to do a bunch of 0:16:48.840 --> 0:16:50.800 work on the golf course, and we've been doing work 0:16:50.840 --> 0:16:52.760 on it for years and it doesn't seem to be. 0:16:52.680 --> 0:16:55.560 Getting any better. Well, let's get a second opinion. 0:16:56.520 --> 0:16:59.520 So they asked me to come out and play golf 0:16:59.520 --> 0:17:04.680 with him, just give them perspective on what they were 0:17:04.720 --> 0:17:08.520 doing and what I thought. And you know, Eric came 0:17:08.560 --> 0:17:10.359 out with me and I played. That's one of the 0:17:10.400 --> 0:17:11.119 worst rounds of call. 0:17:11.200 --> 0:17:12.320 But I played a long time. 0:17:12.600 --> 0:17:14.760 I sure didn't get the job because I impressed him 0:17:14.760 --> 0:17:16.000 with my playing ability. 0:17:16.560 --> 0:17:18.760 I don't think I made any pars all day. 0:17:21.359 --> 0:17:23.439 And you know, and we went back in after we 0:17:23.440 --> 0:17:26.320 were done playing and sat down and they asked me, well, 0:17:26.320 --> 0:17:27.960 what do you think of the golf course? And I said, 0:17:29.240 --> 0:17:33.520 I just don't understand. You talk so much about George 0:17:33.520 --> 0:17:36.439 Thomas and everybody thinks of it as one of his 0:17:36.520 --> 0:17:42.960 best golf courses, and yet the most famous holes had 0:17:43.000 --> 0:17:46.480 been gone for fifty years. Everybody talks about the May 0:17:46.560 --> 0:17:49.520 West Hole, and you blew that up in nineteen sixty two, 0:17:50.720 --> 0:17:53.760 you know. And and there's you know, there's an aerial 0:17:53.800 --> 0:17:55.919 photo on the wall right behind you of what this 0:17:55.960 --> 0:17:58.959 golf course looked like when George Thomas built it, and 0:17:59.000 --> 0:18:01.760 it doesn't look anything like that now. And I don't 0:18:01.840 --> 0:18:06.440 understand why you're what direction you're trying to go besides 0:18:06.480 --> 0:18:12.639 that one. And I had to tell that story to 0:18:12.720 --> 0:18:15.560 a few more people a few more times. But that's 0:18:15.560 --> 0:18:16.920 basically how we wound up working. 0:18:18.760 --> 0:18:22.159 So you mentioned the routing and being one of the 0:18:22.160 --> 0:18:26.000 most spectacular routings. We talked about, you know, routing in 0:18:26.040 --> 0:18:30.080 the last episode, and you're writing a book about routing. 0:18:30.760 --> 0:18:34.560 So what about bel Air's routing is so impressive. 0:18:36.640 --> 0:18:40.800 Well, there's there's a lot of nuance to it that 0:18:40.880 --> 0:18:43.159 I don't really have time to get into in that 0:18:43.320 --> 0:18:46.720 much detail, but just just the general description of how 0:18:46.720 --> 0:18:50.639 this golf course works. I mean, there is nothing else 0:18:50.800 --> 0:18:54.119 like it in the world anywhere, you know, and I 0:18:54.119 --> 0:18:56.959 don't really understand exactly why, because it's been here for 0:18:57.359 --> 0:18:59.800 ninety years and a lot of people have seen it. 0:19:00.080 --> 0:19:02.159 They could have tried to do some of these things, 0:19:02.200 --> 0:19:06.080 and nobody really as So it starts out, you know, 0:19:06.119 --> 0:19:08.680 the clubhouse is on a ridge, and the first tee 0:19:08.800 --> 0:19:11.679 is right out the clubhouse porch basically, and you're looking 0:19:11.840 --> 0:19:14.640 down into Los Angeles and you play down the hill 0:19:15.640 --> 0:19:20.800 part five, going straight toward USIL and a big broad area, 0:19:21.040 --> 0:19:23.840 and then you go back. The second hole kind of 0:19:23.880 --> 0:19:28.679 winds back into a narrow area, and you know by 0:19:28.720 --> 0:19:30.919 the time you get to the third is like a 0:19:31.040 --> 0:19:32.480 narrow little Part three. 0:19:32.280 --> 0:19:33.400 Hole in a canyon. 0:19:34.080 --> 0:19:37.240 And when you get to the fifth green, another part three, 0:19:37.880 --> 0:19:40.119 you're in the end of a canyon and you're like, 0:19:41.640 --> 0:19:45.320 where am I going? I don't see another hole, And 0:19:45.880 --> 0:19:47.720 you know behind the green on the right there's a 0:19:47.760 --> 0:19:52.360 tunnel and you either walk or take your golf cart 0:19:53.160 --> 0:19:55.960 through the tightest tunnel that you can possibly imagine, because 0:19:55.960 --> 0:19:59.720 they designed a golf cart around fitting through the tunnels. 0:20:01.920 --> 0:20:06.160 And you tunnel under this ridge for like one hundred 0:20:06.200 --> 0:20:09.160 and fifty yards or something like that. It's a long tunnel, 0:20:09.440 --> 0:20:11.320 and you come out in a valley on the other side, 0:20:11.359 --> 0:20:14.200 and oh, there's another golf ho there's actually two, six 0:20:14.280 --> 0:20:14.760 and seven. 0:20:14.920 --> 0:20:16.640 And then you work back up. 0:20:16.560 --> 0:20:18.879 To the to the ninth green, and now you're in 0:20:18.920 --> 0:20:22.040 another canyon and the clubhouse is right there and there's 0:20:22.080 --> 0:20:24.320 no place to go again. And this one's really tight. 0:20:24.359 --> 0:20:26.439 I mean there's like barely room for a green in 0:20:26.480 --> 0:20:31.000 the canyon and there's nowhere else to go. You're like, okay, oh, 0:20:31.080 --> 0:20:34.199 there's another tunnel, and you go into the tunnel and 0:20:34.240 --> 0:20:36.439 you go halfway through the tunnel and you take an 0:20:36.440 --> 0:20:39.320 elevator up into the clubhouse and you can walk out 0:20:39.359 --> 0:20:43.359 the door and you're on the tenth tee hitting over 0:20:43.440 --> 0:20:46.199 another canyon on the other side of the clubhouse with 0:20:46.280 --> 0:20:48.919 a suspension bridge from high to high to get you 0:20:48.960 --> 0:20:52.399 over to the other side. There is nothing else I 0:20:52.440 --> 0:20:55.000 can tell you. You know, Eric and I have seen 0:20:55.040 --> 0:20:58.120 a lot of crazy things built in Japan and Korea 0:20:58.440 --> 0:21:01.119 where they spent hundreds of million of dollars putting a 0:21:01.119 --> 0:21:02.840 golf course in canyons. 0:21:02.320 --> 0:21:06.600 In the mountains. They never did anything like that, never 0:21:06.640 --> 0:21:07.359 even thought of. 0:21:09.480 --> 0:21:12.000 Let's say it goes back to the story he said 0:21:12.080 --> 0:21:15.639 earlier about Thomas's background, is how they just found another 0:21:15.720 --> 0:21:18.040 canyon and they said, oh, we can build. 0:21:17.800 --> 0:21:18.560 A golf course. 0:21:18.640 --> 0:21:21.159 Well, yeah, I mean the story of the routing is 0:21:21.200 --> 0:21:25.520 that he thought he was stuck and didn't have a way, 0:21:26.040 --> 0:21:28.240 you know, he didn't have enough land, and they had 0:21:28.280 --> 0:21:33.880 never looked where the back nine was. And then when 0:21:33.920 --> 0:21:35.560 he thought he was stuck, he was up there with 0:21:35.600 --> 0:21:38.679 Billy bell and actually there was you know, there was 0:21:38.720 --> 0:21:41.840 a third co designer at bell Air for a little bit. 0:21:41.960 --> 0:21:44.560 I can't tell how much he actually had to do 0:21:44.640 --> 0:21:48.040 with it, who was another great amateur player in California. 0:21:48.520 --> 0:21:50.720 Jack Neville, the guy who designed Pebble Beach, or it 0:21:50.720 --> 0:21:53.239 gets the credit for designing Pebble Beach, was involved at 0:21:53.240 --> 0:21:55.639 bell Air too, And they were all standing on the 0:21:55.680 --> 0:21:58.800 ridge where the clubhouse is, and Thomas said, do you 0:21:58.800 --> 0:22:01.480 think he could play like over it? You know, kid 0:22:01.560 --> 0:22:04.640 across this canyon and played with a green up there. 0:22:05.200 --> 0:22:08.679 And they tried with whatever they had around to hit 0:22:08.720 --> 0:22:10.720 a ball, and they were like, yeah, I think that'll work. 0:22:11.359 --> 0:22:14.000 And so they went over there and then they look 0:22:14.520 --> 0:22:16.639 from you know, now you have to go across a 0:22:16.720 --> 0:22:19.000 road to the eleventh tee, but you didn't back then. 0:22:19.800 --> 0:22:22.760 And you know, once you get just over that ridge 0:22:22.800 --> 0:22:26.600 where ten green is, there is that great valley where 0:22:26.640 --> 0:22:30.040 eleven through sixteen are, and they'd never really looked up 0:22:30.080 --> 0:22:32.320 in there at all. And that valley is really tight, 0:22:32.600 --> 0:22:37.720 like it's by by the standards we used to lay 0:22:37.720 --> 0:22:40.080 out golf courses. Now, it's not wide enough to have 0:22:40.119 --> 0:22:42.000 a hole going up in a hole coming back in 0:22:42.000 --> 0:22:42.560 that valley. 0:22:42.720 --> 0:22:45.040 But they got him in there and it works just fun. 0:22:46.359 --> 0:22:49.919