1 00:00:15,316 --> 00:00:26,716 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Around eighteen sixty nine, doctor Emmanuel Erman, a professor 2 00:00:26,716 --> 00:00:31,156 Speaker 1: of economics in Vienna, wrote an article which explained that 3 00:00:31,396 --> 00:00:34,036 Speaker 1: the time and effort involved in writing and mailing a 4 00:00:34,116 --> 00:00:37,796 Speaker 1: letter was out of proportion to the size of the 5 00:00:37,796 --> 00:00:41,196 Speaker 1: message sent. He thought there should be a more practical 6 00:00:41,236 --> 00:00:44,836 Speaker 1: method for people to share shorter bits of correspondence, and 7 00:00:45,116 --> 00:00:49,276 Speaker 1: unlike with most op ed pieces, doctor Erman's suggestions moved 8 00:00:49,316 --> 00:00:53,196 Speaker 1: the needle. On October first of that year, the Austrian 9 00:00:53,196 --> 00:00:59,436 Speaker 1: post introduced the correspondence Karta forgive me Fraus Lawson, my 10 00:01:00,276 --> 00:01:05,356 Speaker 1: tenth grade German teacher. The correspondence Karta was a rectangular 11 00:01:05,436 --> 00:01:08,116 Speaker 1: card with space for an address on the front and 12 00:01:08,236 --> 00:01:11,796 Speaker 1: a message on the back. Postage was printed right on 13 00:01:11,836 --> 00:01:14,396 Speaker 1: the top right corner, and it cost half the price 14 00:01:14,396 --> 00:01:18,716 Speaker 1: of a letter. Over time, the correspondence Karta and its 15 00:01:18,716 --> 00:01:23,476 Speaker 1: descendants would become the platform of choice for four humble, 16 00:01:23,476 --> 00:01:30,076 Speaker 1: braggy words wish you were here the postcard had arrived. 17 00:01:31,876 --> 00:01:35,076 Speaker 1: I love the brevity of a postcard. How the form 18 00:01:35,116 --> 00:01:39,476 Speaker 1: itself forces you to abandon formalities and cut quickly to 19 00:01:39,796 --> 00:01:42,916 Speaker 1: your observations and impressions. And in the hands of an 20 00:01:42,956 --> 00:01:46,636 Speaker 1: inspired writer, it can quickly transport the recipient to where 21 00:01:46,636 --> 00:01:50,156 Speaker 1: it was written. And that's what happened to me when 22 00:01:50,196 --> 00:01:53,676 Speaker 1: a couple weeks back I received a message from my editor, 23 00:01:54,196 --> 00:01:59,236 Speaker 1: Julia Barton, who was visiting Morocco. Tangier sits in the 24 00:01:59,276 --> 00:02:02,116 Speaker 1: lower jaw of the mouth that bites the Mediterranean off 25 00:02:02,156 --> 00:02:06,196 Speaker 1: the Atlantic. I'd never been to North Africa before coming here. 26 00:02:07,116 --> 00:02:10,396 Speaker 1: I'm basically chaperoning a trip of teenagers led by my 27 00:02:10,516 --> 00:02:13,756 Speaker 1: nineteen year old son, who travels the world now but 28 00:02:14,076 --> 00:02:17,316 Speaker 1: is not fully equipped for the realities of stomach bugs 29 00:02:17,436 --> 00:02:21,436 Speaker 1: or airports without computers. I didn't really prepare for Morocco 30 00:02:21,476 --> 00:02:24,916 Speaker 1: before we left, but fortunately Tangier is a place that 31 00:02:24,956 --> 00:02:29,436 Speaker 1: forgives ignorance. The city has been welcoming, or probably has 32 00:02:29,436 --> 00:02:34,156 Speaker 1: been forced to welcome outsiders forever, thanks to its lucrative geography. 33 00:02:35,636 --> 00:02:38,276 Speaker 1: Just one example. On our way up a huge hill 34 00:02:38,316 --> 00:02:41,436 Speaker 1: to get tea at the famous Cafe Haffa, overlooking the 35 00:02:41,476 --> 00:02:46,476 Speaker 1: Straits of Gibraltar, we stumbled upon and Acropolis. Three thousand 36 00:02:46,516 --> 00:02:49,876 Speaker 1: years ago, the Phoenicians carved their tombs into the cliffs here. 37 00:02:50,996 --> 00:02:53,796 Speaker 1: Those tombs are now just empty cavities filled with rain, 38 00:02:53,876 --> 00:02:57,596 Speaker 1: water and trash. But it's still a romantic setting. You 39 00:02:57,636 --> 00:03:01,116 Speaker 1: can imagine the Phoenicians winding up here as far as 40 00:03:01,156 --> 00:03:03,756 Speaker 1: they could get from the center of their empire and 41 00:03:03,916 --> 00:03:08,836 Speaker 1: just lying down to rest. But the strangest place I 42 00:03:09,196 --> 00:03:11,676 Speaker 1: umbled upon was also the closest to our apartment in 43 00:03:11,716 --> 00:03:14,996 Speaker 1: the Old City, on a short alley called Houda mariqu 44 00:03:15,796 --> 00:03:17,716 Speaker 1: You get there through a gate called, at least on 45 00:03:17,796 --> 00:03:22,716 Speaker 1: Google Maps Bobmerican, the American Gate. Try not to be 46 00:03:22,796 --> 00:03:26,156 Speaker 1: distracted by the feral cats copulating on the stairs, and 47 00:03:26,276 --> 00:03:30,836 Speaker 1: head into the whitewashed maze of Tangier's Medina the Old City. 48 00:03:31,316 --> 00:03:33,436 Speaker 1: After a couple of twists and turns, you'll find some 49 00:03:33,556 --> 00:03:38,316 Speaker 1: guards dressed in Universal Guard casual navy blue polyester sacks 50 00:03:38,396 --> 00:03:41,996 Speaker 1: and sweaters with patches that say US Mission to Morocco. 51 00:03:43,196 --> 00:03:46,356 Speaker 1: They stand at the entrance to the only US registered 52 00:03:46,396 --> 00:03:51,596 Speaker 1: historic landmark in a foreign country, the Tangier American Legation. 53 00:03:52,796 --> 00:03:56,276 Speaker 1: I'm fascinated by the official properties of the USA abroad 54 00:03:56,796 --> 00:04:00,516 Speaker 1: are bristling consulates where cell phones are confiscated at security. 55 00:04:01,316 --> 00:04:04,236 Speaker 1: The legation is no longer a consulate that's now in 56 00:04:04,276 --> 00:04:08,396 Speaker 1: the Moroccan capital Robot. Now this shard of America charges 57 00:04:08,436 --> 00:04:12,716 Speaker 1: admission the local equivalent of five bucks to enter, and 58 00:04:12,796 --> 00:04:16,676 Speaker 1: it houses a museum, a library, and cross cultural scholarship. 59 00:04:17,716 --> 00:04:20,716 Speaker 1: The legation building has been in America's hands for more 60 00:04:20,716 --> 00:04:24,036 Speaker 1: than two hundred years. So I paid my fifty deer 61 00:04:24,076 --> 00:04:26,436 Speaker 1: hum and found myself in the entry way of a 62 00:04:26,516 --> 00:04:30,276 Speaker 1: tasteful villa with a fountain, reading a letter from George 63 00:04:30,316 --> 00:04:35,996 Speaker 1: Washington to the Sultan of Morocco December seventeen eighty nine. 64 00:04:37,396 --> 00:04:40,236 Speaker 1: Turns out Morocco was the first nation to recognize the 65 00:04:40,316 --> 00:04:45,076 Speaker 1: United States. Who knew. There's probably more to unpack about 66 00:04:45,116 --> 00:04:48,036 Speaker 1: that story, but this museum does not really linger on 67 00:04:48,076 --> 00:04:51,436 Speaker 1: it or the next two centuries. It's fast forward up 68 00:04:51,436 --> 00:04:58,276 Speaker 1: the stairs to World War Two. We learn all about 69 00:04:58,316 --> 00:05:00,556 Speaker 1: how Tangier had become a den of spies in the 70 00:05:00,596 --> 00:05:03,316 Speaker 1: interwar period, and then it turned out to be a 71 00:05:03,356 --> 00:05:06,356 Speaker 1: great place for the Allies to orchestrate a land invasion 72 00:05:06,356 --> 00:05:09,876 Speaker 1: of North Africa to keep it from falling into Hitler's hands. 73 00:05:11,276 --> 00:05:15,796 Speaker 1: Operation Torch, as it was called, was a big success. Churchill, 74 00:05:15,956 --> 00:05:20,396 Speaker 1: Fdr and ad Hoc local informant Josephine Baker all feature 75 00:05:20,396 --> 00:05:23,636 Speaker 1: in the story, and above a mannequin in a marine 76 00:05:23,756 --> 00:05:27,876 Speaker 1: dress blue uniform. We see a traditional Moroccan knotted rug 77 00:05:28,196 --> 00:05:32,116 Speaker 1: of the US flag offered in friendship after the war. 78 00:05:33,556 --> 00:05:37,636 Speaker 1: Geopolitics now complete, You walk through multiple reception rooms with 79 00:05:37,716 --> 00:05:42,516 Speaker 1: lots of strenuously upholstered furniture and plastic Christmas ornaments, down 80 00:05:42,556 --> 00:05:48,396 Speaker 1: through a lovely courtyard to the Paul bulls Wing. Paul 81 00:05:48,396 --> 00:05:51,236 Speaker 1: Bowles was an American expat who lived in Tangier most 82 00:05:51,276 --> 00:05:54,556 Speaker 1: of his life. His nineteen forty nine novel The Sheltering 83 00:05:54,596 --> 00:05:59,836 Speaker 1: Sky generated a ton of romantic curiosity about Morocco. William S. 84 00:05:59,916 --> 00:06:04,196 Speaker 1: Burrows wrote Naked Lunch Here. Jack Kerouac and Alan Ginsburg 85 00:06:04,276 --> 00:06:09,596 Speaker 1: and Susan Sontag all came on pilgrimages bulls to float 86 00:06:09,596 --> 00:06:13,236 Speaker 1: above it all, writing and composing and hauling an Ampex 87 00:06:13,316 --> 00:06:17,556 Speaker 1: reel to real machine all over Morocco to record traditional music. 88 00:06:20,676 --> 00:06:22,796 Speaker 1: I didn't know that much about him, but enough to 89 00:06:22,836 --> 00:06:26,156 Speaker 1: know what the legation's exhibit leaves out. His fondness for 90 00:06:26,236 --> 00:06:30,636 Speaker 1: hash and sex with Moroccan teenage boys, for instance. Here 91 00:06:30,676 --> 00:06:33,756 Speaker 1: we just see artifacts of his creative life, his old 92 00:06:33,756 --> 00:06:38,356 Speaker 1: typewriter and suitcases, book jackets, and sheet music of his compositions. 93 00:06:38,796 --> 00:06:43,396 Speaker 1: A sort of Bohemian Rhapsody. It's pretty surreal to go 94 00:06:43,476 --> 00:06:46,396 Speaker 1: from George Washington to Paul Bowls in less than ten minutes. 95 00:06:47,076 --> 00:06:50,596 Speaker 1: Also very American feeling, because so much of every story 96 00:06:50,676 --> 00:06:54,436 Speaker 1: is left out. Who is this museum for? Later on, 97 00:06:54,436 --> 00:06:57,196 Speaker 1: I try to read up, irritated by the shallow globs 98 00:06:57,196 --> 00:07:00,956 Speaker 1: of info I gleaned here. The Legation's cultural center does 99 00:07:00,956 --> 00:07:04,396 Speaker 1: good work, such as free Arabic literacy classes for poor women. 100 00:07:05,036 --> 00:07:08,356 Speaker 1: An American expat later tells me The Legation Villa is 101 00:07:08,356 --> 00:07:12,156 Speaker 1: an awesome play for receptions and parties, but the museum 102 00:07:12,276 --> 00:07:15,796 Speaker 1: doesn't really explain its own existence very well. Or Tangier. 103 00:07:16,676 --> 00:07:19,876 Speaker 1: There's almost nothing about the colonial era when Morocco was 104 00:07:19,916 --> 00:07:25,476 Speaker 1: divided under European quote unquote protection, and Tangier's situation was 105 00:07:25,516 --> 00:07:28,996 Speaker 1: even more complicated as a neutral free trade zone from 106 00:07:28,996 --> 00:07:32,676 Speaker 1: the nineteen twenties to nineteen fifty nine. What were we 107 00:07:32,756 --> 00:07:37,556 Speaker 1: Americans doing here besides training spies and mapping Greenwich Village 108 00:07:37,556 --> 00:07:41,996 Speaker 1: onto Tangier. As the Moroccan writer Hishamaiedi puts it, I 109 00:07:42,076 --> 00:07:45,276 Speaker 1: know it's useless to expect cultural criticism from a property 110 00:07:45,316 --> 00:07:49,676 Speaker 1: owned by the US State Department. Ligations do not do negation. 111 00:07:51,476 --> 00:07:53,516 Speaker 1: I start to figure out who this place is for 112 00:07:53,756 --> 00:07:56,036 Speaker 1: as I leave the front door and the guards, the 113 00:07:56,196 --> 00:07:59,596 Speaker 1: cats now sleeping on the stairs, the seagulls squawking over 114 00:07:59,596 --> 00:08:03,836 Speaker 1: the old Jewish cemetery, and the venders hawking spices and 115 00:08:03,916 --> 00:08:08,196 Speaker 1: fake hoodies. As we're sipping mint tea at Cafe Hoffa, 116 00:08:08,356 --> 00:08:12,516 Speaker 1: staring over the straits, it does become clear the tangier 117 00:08:12,596 --> 00:08:16,796 Speaker 1: American legation is for me, not me the visitor who 118 00:08:16,796 --> 00:08:20,156 Speaker 1: would like more irony. I mean me, a citizen of 119 00:08:20,196 --> 00:08:23,396 Speaker 1: the USA. This piece of two hundred year old real 120 00:08:23,516 --> 00:08:27,036 Speaker 1: estate is a hedge. I read that Morocco is the 121 00:08:27,116 --> 00:08:31,236 Speaker 1: largest purchaser of US arms on the African continent. It's 122 00:08:31,276 --> 00:08:35,196 Speaker 1: been hosting joint military exercises with US for nearly two decades. 123 00:08:36,156 --> 00:08:39,076 Speaker 1: And when my government does something really unpleasant to the 124 00:08:39,116 --> 00:08:43,836 Speaker 1: Arab speaking world sometimes happens. At least we have the legation. 125 00:08:44,436 --> 00:08:47,476 Speaker 1: We can host receptions in the presence of the knotted rug, 126 00:08:47,596 --> 00:08:51,356 Speaker 1: stars and stripes, George Washington's vintage letter to the Sultan, 127 00:08:52,156 --> 00:08:56,476 Speaker 1: and maybe even Paul Bowles typewriter, whatever might help us 128 00:08:56,476 --> 00:08:59,476 Speaker 1: stay in good standing with our one old friend in 129 00:08:59,476 --> 00:09:04,316 Speaker 1: the region, our national historic site in Tangier sits at 130 00:09:04,316 --> 00:09:07,956 Speaker 1: the edge of an empire, like those Phoenician tombs of old, 131 00:09:08,596 --> 00:09:11,636 Speaker 1: though that when Romans marched in and took over the city, 132 00:09:12,036 --> 00:09:15,556 Speaker 1: they looted the tombs and removed all signs of Phoenicia. 133 00:09:15,836 --> 00:09:22,436 Speaker 1: It turns out Romans were not romantic at all. A 134 00:09:22,516 --> 00:09:26,716 Speaker 1: postcard from Tangiers, courtesy of my editor, Julia Barton. I've 135 00:09:26,876 --> 00:09:29,596 Speaker 1: never been to Tangiers, but I have wanted to go 136 00:09:30,116 --> 00:09:35,276 Speaker 1: ever since I read yes Paul bowles novel The Sheltering Sky, 137 00:09:35,436 --> 00:09:37,796 Speaker 1: and it was there that he made the observation a 138 00:09:37,836 --> 00:09:42,236 Speaker 1: difference between turists and traveler is that a taurus accepts 139 00:09:42,236 --> 00:09:48,996 Speaker 1: his own civilization without question, not so the traveler. And 140 00:09:49,276 --> 00:09:55,236 Speaker 1: according to that framework, Julia is definitely a traveler. All right, 141 00:09:55,236 --> 00:09:57,196 Speaker 1: we're gonna take a break when we get back. I 142 00:09:57,196 --> 00:10:00,556 Speaker 1: speak with one of the most talented and cranky travel 143 00:10:00,596 --> 00:10:04,316 Speaker 1: writers to ever do it. We are here to accrue 144 00:10:04,676 --> 00:10:08,916 Speaker 1: unredeemable air miles and tear points, to try to be 145 00:10:09,236 --> 00:10:13,596 Speaker 1: graded on aeroplanes and in hotels wherever possible, to try 146 00:10:13,636 --> 00:10:17,436 Speaker 1: to alter our itiners to include Bora, Bora, and to 147 00:10:17,556 --> 00:10:21,636 Speaker 1: wish that the internet connections were faster and more reliable 148 00:10:22,156 --> 00:10:26,076 Speaker 1: writer Jeff Dyer joins me after the break, plus actor 149 00:10:26,156 --> 00:10:29,916 Speaker 1: Coma Domingo stops by to answer your travel questions. It's 150 00:10:29,916 --> 00:10:46,196 Speaker 1: a real barn burner today, folks, welcome back to Not 151 00:10:46,316 --> 00:10:50,276 Speaker 1: Lost Chat, my series of conversations with fellow travelers. I'm 152 00:10:50,316 --> 00:10:54,116 Speaker 1: Brendan Francis, Newnham. And you know, one could argue that 153 00:10:54,156 --> 00:10:58,236 Speaker 1: this whole chat series was an elaborate excuse for me 154 00:10:58,436 --> 00:11:02,236 Speaker 1: to speak with one of my favorite travel writers, Jeff Dyer. 155 00:11:03,556 --> 00:11:06,956 Speaker 1: Now to clarify, Dyer isn't simply a travel writer. He's 156 00:11:06,996 --> 00:11:10,676 Speaker 1: won numerous awards for his books about as photography and film. 157 00:11:11,156 --> 00:11:13,956 Speaker 1: He's also written four novels, including the Color of Memory 158 00:11:14,156 --> 00:11:17,316 Speaker 1: and Jeff and Venice. His latest work is called The 159 00:11:17,396 --> 00:11:20,876 Speaker 1: Last Days of Roger Federer, another subject dear to my heart. 160 00:11:21,236 --> 00:11:24,196 Speaker 1: In that work, Jeff confronts his own middle age by 161 00:11:24,236 --> 00:11:28,556 Speaker 1: examining the last days and plays of famous athletes, writers 162 00:11:28,556 --> 00:11:32,036 Speaker 1: and artists. But I'm not alone in thinking that it's 163 00:11:32,076 --> 00:11:34,596 Speaker 1: in his travel writing where he really shines. And you 164 00:11:34,676 --> 00:11:37,276 Speaker 1: can find it in collections like Yoga for people who 165 00:11:37,356 --> 00:11:41,636 Speaker 1: can't be bothered to do it and White Sands. So 166 00:11:41,876 --> 00:11:43,756 Speaker 1: when I met with him. I asked him to start 167 00:11:43,756 --> 00:11:46,876 Speaker 1: by reading me A Passes from White Sands. And at 168 00:11:46,916 --> 00:11:49,676 Speaker 1: this point in the book, Jeff is on the island 169 00:11:49,716 --> 00:11:52,756 Speaker 1: of iva Ova, nearing the end of his visit to 170 00:11:52,836 --> 00:11:57,876 Speaker 1: French Polynesia. I joined some other tourists for a boat 171 00:11:57,916 --> 00:12:01,796 Speaker 1: trip to a nearby island. The minivan taking us to 172 00:12:01,836 --> 00:12:05,196 Speaker 1: the boat was late. This didn't matter, because when we 173 00:12:05,276 --> 00:12:07,956 Speaker 1: got to the port, the boat was not ready to sail. 174 00:12:09,236 --> 00:12:12,356 Speaker 1: Was the thing about eva Oa. The huge weight to 175 00:12:12,516 --> 00:12:16,996 Speaker 1: leave contained within it other little pockets of waiting, so 176 00:12:17,076 --> 00:12:20,796 Speaker 1: that one was caught in an endless hierarchy of waiting. 177 00:12:21,956 --> 00:12:24,556 Speaker 1: I was always waiting for the next bit of waiting, 178 00:12:24,876 --> 00:12:27,796 Speaker 1: climaxing with the final days waiting, in which I would 179 00:12:27,796 --> 00:12:30,796 Speaker 1: wait to be transferred to the airport, where I would 180 00:12:30,796 --> 00:12:33,956 Speaker 1: wait for the plane taking me back to Tahiti, before 181 00:12:33,996 --> 00:12:37,196 Speaker 1: the wait for the enormous airborne weight of the flight 182 00:12:37,236 --> 00:12:41,036 Speaker 1: back to La more waiting, and on to London itself. 183 00:12:42,316 --> 00:12:46,156 Speaker 1: In a sense, that is what we're here for. To wait. 184 00:12:47,676 --> 00:12:53,076 Speaker 1: While waiting, however, one necessarily ponders other questions, questions that 185 00:12:53,156 --> 00:12:58,116 Speaker 1: don't go away, irrespective of how long one waits. Where 186 00:12:58,116 --> 00:13:01,236 Speaker 1: did I come from? Where am I going? How long 187 00:13:01,276 --> 00:13:05,116 Speaker 1: have I got? But the answers to those big questions 188 00:13:05,156 --> 00:13:07,676 Speaker 1: turn out to be small, or at least they have 189 00:13:07,756 --> 00:13:10,716 Speaker 1: to be itemized in detail if they're to have any 190 00:13:10,796 --> 00:13:14,516 Speaker 1: chance of doing justice to the big questions. We are 191 00:13:14,676 --> 00:13:20,156 Speaker 1: here to accrue unredeemable air miles and tier points, to 192 00:13:20,156 --> 00:13:24,436 Speaker 1: try to be upgraded on aeroplanes and in hotels wherever possible, 193 00:13:24,756 --> 00:13:28,836 Speaker 1: to try to alter our itineries to include Bora Bora, 194 00:13:28,916 --> 00:13:32,436 Speaker 1: and to wish that the internet connections were faster and 195 00:13:32,556 --> 00:13:37,156 Speaker 1: more reliable. We are here to suffer terrible disorientation and 196 00:13:37,276 --> 00:13:41,116 Speaker 1: jet lag, and to be plagued constantly by the desire 197 00:13:41,196 --> 00:13:45,636 Speaker 1: to be somewhere else, either somewhere else in French Polynesia 198 00:13:46,036 --> 00:13:51,596 Speaker 1: or ideally somewhere else altogether, preferably nearer home. We are 199 00:13:51,676 --> 00:13:54,836 Speaker 1: here to wish we'd brought different books to read, and 200 00:13:54,996 --> 00:13:58,676 Speaker 1: to wonder what happened to our lost biography of Gogan. 201 00:13:59,356 --> 00:14:01,836 Speaker 1: We are here to wish the food was better and 202 00:14:02,036 --> 00:14:04,876 Speaker 1: not to be afflicted by the torment of heat rash, 203 00:14:05,196 --> 00:14:08,156 Speaker 1: and to wish that we'd brought some calamine lotion to 204 00:14:08,316 --> 00:14:11,676 Speaker 1: lessen that forment. We are here to buy presents for 205 00:14:11,756 --> 00:14:15,476 Speaker 1: our loved ones, and then to spend long hours constructing 206 00:14:15,516 --> 00:14:19,556 Speaker 1: excuses as to why this was impossible, because everything into 207 00:14:19,636 --> 00:14:23,396 Speaker 1: Heaiti is so expensive and there's nothing worth buying anyway. 208 00:14:24,236 --> 00:14:26,636 Speaker 1: We are here to be bored, rigid, and then to 209 00:14:26,756 --> 00:14:30,196 Speaker 1: wonder how it was possible to be so bored. We 210 00:14:30,236 --> 00:14:33,156 Speaker 1: are here to wait at eva Oa Airport in the 211 00:14:33,276 --> 00:14:38,436 Speaker 1: drenching humidity, and to feel definitively what we have felt before, 212 00:14:38,956 --> 00:14:44,316 Speaker 1: albeit only fleetingly, that we are glad we came, even 213 00:14:44,356 --> 00:14:47,756 Speaker 1: though we spent so much of our time wishing we hadn't. 214 00:14:48,396 --> 00:14:50,556 Speaker 1: We are here to make sure our seat belts are 215 00:14:50,556 --> 00:14:54,916 Speaker 1: securely fastened, our trade tables stowed, and our seats are 216 00:14:54,956 --> 00:14:58,996 Speaker 1: in the upright position before takeoff and landing. We are 217 00:14:59,116 --> 00:15:07,116 Speaker 1: here to go somewhere else. Thank you for that. I 218 00:15:07,156 --> 00:15:10,236 Speaker 1: feel like this essay, I think, on the one hand, 219 00:15:10,356 --> 00:15:14,996 Speaker 1: is like later error Jeff Dyer traveling, But it also 220 00:15:15,116 --> 00:15:17,556 Speaker 1: encapsulates a lot of what you do, which is, you 221 00:15:17,556 --> 00:15:19,756 Speaker 1: take us on this trip with you. You talk about 222 00:15:19,756 --> 00:15:22,796 Speaker 1: the joys and the struggles, you talk about the agony, 223 00:15:23,236 --> 00:15:26,356 Speaker 1: and yet there's permanent desire to go on. And I 224 00:15:26,396 --> 00:15:29,236 Speaker 1: wondered if you could talk about how you gave yourself 225 00:15:29,236 --> 00:15:32,436 Speaker 1: permission to be open about those things, and how that's 226 00:15:32,476 --> 00:15:36,116 Speaker 1: played out. I have this idea, really, it's almost like 227 00:15:36,156 --> 00:15:40,156 Speaker 1: a contract that I feel that nobody should come out 228 00:15:40,196 --> 00:15:44,236 Speaker 1: of anything I write looking worse than me. Really, so 229 00:15:44,276 --> 00:15:48,116 Speaker 1: I feel that typically the object of the satire in 230 00:15:48,196 --> 00:15:53,276 Speaker 1: my book is myself. But certainly one wants to articulate 231 00:15:53,356 --> 00:15:56,076 Speaker 1: the fact that you know, there's no point shying away 232 00:15:56,116 --> 00:15:58,956 Speaker 1: from the fact that a lot of the time places 233 00:15:58,996 --> 00:16:03,796 Speaker 1: are disappointing, and you know the food is bad and 234 00:16:03,836 --> 00:16:06,276 Speaker 1: all that kind of stuff. But what is terrible, I think, 235 00:16:06,396 --> 00:16:10,116 Speaker 1: is if if you go with that as a predetermined 236 00:16:10,276 --> 00:16:13,436 Speaker 1: setting to sort of take things down, because what you 237 00:16:13,516 --> 00:16:17,276 Speaker 1: don't want to do is have that kind of that 238 00:16:17,556 --> 00:16:22,356 Speaker 1: satirical dimension. You don't want that to render you incapable 239 00:16:22,396 --> 00:16:26,036 Speaker 1: of responding to the wonder of the world. Well, something 240 00:16:26,116 --> 00:16:28,156 Speaker 1: that does appear in your books, even for a reader 241 00:16:28,236 --> 00:16:32,676 Speaker 1: not doing some literary analysis, I think was captured by 242 00:16:32,756 --> 00:16:34,836 Speaker 1: James Wood who wrote you up in The New Yorker 243 00:16:34,836 --> 00:16:38,556 Speaker 1: a few years back, and he described your method, or 244 00:16:38,556 --> 00:16:42,676 Speaker 1: how he has perceived your method as quote, a loitering investigation, 245 00:16:43,276 --> 00:16:47,676 Speaker 1: somehow intense and slackerish. The author not quite pursuing his subject, 246 00:16:47,876 --> 00:16:50,676 Speaker 1: but hanging around it like a clever aimless boy in 247 00:16:50,676 --> 00:16:53,956 Speaker 1: a street corner. I don't know about the clever aimless 248 00:16:53,956 --> 00:16:56,316 Speaker 1: boy part, but I do think the idea of loitering 249 00:16:56,836 --> 00:16:59,676 Speaker 1: is interesting. In a lot of your works, some of fiction, 250 00:16:59,796 --> 00:17:04,556 Speaker 1: some nonfiction, the character you go to a place post 251 00:17:04,676 --> 00:17:07,796 Speaker 1: up and just you're kind of present, and you're not 252 00:17:07,996 --> 00:17:10,956 Speaker 1: You're not there for some adventure. You're there just to 253 00:17:10,956 --> 00:17:14,836 Speaker 1: be present. And I wonder if you could speak to 254 00:17:14,916 --> 00:17:17,436 Speaker 1: that mode and talk about how your approach used to 255 00:17:17,436 --> 00:17:20,116 Speaker 1: be about covering a place. Yeah, I think that's a 256 00:17:20,156 --> 00:17:22,636 Speaker 1: good summary of what I was doing. And one of 257 00:17:22,676 --> 00:17:27,436 Speaker 1: the reasons that I've remained interested in traveling is because 258 00:17:27,876 --> 00:17:30,276 Speaker 1: we never went anywhere when I was a kid. You know, 259 00:17:30,396 --> 00:17:32,676 Speaker 1: I didn't get on a plane until I was twenty two, 260 00:17:33,236 --> 00:17:36,076 Speaker 1: and my parents, both of whom are dead now, they 261 00:17:36,156 --> 00:17:39,836 Speaker 1: died without ever having been on a plane. My pre 262 00:17:39,876 --> 00:17:45,556 Speaker 1: adult life was so unadventurous. And then I gradually got 263 00:17:45,596 --> 00:17:48,876 Speaker 1: into going to places, but I think because I wasn't 264 00:17:48,956 --> 00:17:51,236 Speaker 1: used to it, I didn't like it because I missed 265 00:17:51,276 --> 00:17:54,556 Speaker 1: all the conveniences of home and all this kind of stuff. 266 00:17:54,596 --> 00:17:57,436 Speaker 1: And then I hit upon a bit later this way 267 00:17:57,436 --> 00:18:00,756 Speaker 1: of traveling in a way that suited me, which was 268 00:18:00,796 --> 00:18:04,316 Speaker 1: to go somewhere and then stay for a little length 269 00:18:04,396 --> 00:18:07,876 Speaker 1: of time so that I wasn't just moving around all 270 00:18:07,916 --> 00:18:11,316 Speaker 1: the time, which is of course famously tiring. And then 271 00:18:11,356 --> 00:18:14,796 Speaker 1: if I rented a place, as I did in New Orleans, 272 00:18:15,196 --> 00:18:18,236 Speaker 1: I could have my little routine. I could have my 273 00:18:18,396 --> 00:18:21,076 Speaker 1: kettle and all this kind of stuff, do some work 274 00:18:21,076 --> 00:18:24,116 Speaker 1: in the day, which I liked. So on the one hand, 275 00:18:24,156 --> 00:18:29,476 Speaker 1: I had all the excitement and thrills and attentiveness that's 276 00:18:29,556 --> 00:18:32,316 Speaker 1: important of being in a new place. But I had 277 00:18:32,356 --> 00:18:35,676 Speaker 1: all the security of being able to lead my normal 278 00:18:35,756 --> 00:18:38,956 Speaker 1: sort of routine life, and that really suited me. And 279 00:18:39,036 --> 00:18:41,436 Speaker 1: that meant that I was, as you said that, you know, 280 00:18:41,716 --> 00:18:45,596 Speaker 1: without any kind of purpose. So that was your mode 281 00:18:45,596 --> 00:18:49,516 Speaker 1: of travel for a while, and you know, it's particularly 282 00:18:49,516 --> 00:18:52,516 Speaker 1: apparent in your collection Yoga for People who Can't be Bothered. 283 00:18:53,356 --> 00:18:58,236 Speaker 1: Now you continue to do travel writing. Your collection before 284 00:18:58,316 --> 00:19:01,516 Speaker 1: your most recent book, Waite Sands, was mostly a compendium 285 00:19:01,556 --> 00:19:05,556 Speaker 1: of travel writing. And now you're married. You seem to 286 00:19:05,556 --> 00:19:10,116 Speaker 1: live a relatively happy, stable life in Los Angeles, and 287 00:19:10,196 --> 00:19:12,716 Speaker 1: yet you continue to do this. So why do you 288 00:19:12,836 --> 00:19:15,916 Speaker 1: keep at it? Why do you keep traveling? And I 289 00:19:15,956 --> 00:19:18,556 Speaker 1: guess my answer to why I kept at it is 290 00:19:19,236 --> 00:19:22,996 Speaker 1: I always I think I've quoted before that wonderful line 291 00:19:23,036 --> 00:19:26,476 Speaker 1: of Annie Dillard's where she says, you know, it's a 292 00:19:26,596 --> 00:19:30,076 Speaker 1: very interesting planet. We're only here for a short time, 293 00:19:30,116 --> 00:19:32,156 Speaker 1: so we might as well get a feel for the place. 294 00:19:32,956 --> 00:19:35,796 Speaker 1: I mean, it's an utter least stupendous place. So it 295 00:19:35,916 --> 00:19:40,836 Speaker 1: seems crazy not to have been everywhere, everywhere that you 296 00:19:40,916 --> 00:19:45,396 Speaker 1: can go to at least once. And certainly there are 297 00:19:45,436 --> 00:19:48,196 Speaker 1: plenty of places that you only want to go to once, 298 00:19:48,276 --> 00:19:50,596 Speaker 1: And there are plenty of places actually that, having been 299 00:19:50,636 --> 00:19:52,956 Speaker 1: to once, you think, oh, that really wasn't worth going to. 300 00:19:53,156 --> 00:19:55,036 Speaker 1: You know, there's a passage in one of your pieces, 301 00:19:55,076 --> 00:19:57,156 Speaker 1: and I've been rereading all of them and listening to 302 00:19:57,196 --> 00:19:59,276 Speaker 1: the audiobooks, so they're all a jumble in my mind. 303 00:19:59,836 --> 00:20:02,796 Speaker 1: But you're in North London and you walk by where 304 00:20:02,796 --> 00:20:07,396 Speaker 1: you think Julian Barnes's houses, another British writer, and you say, 305 00:20:07,556 --> 00:20:09,636 Speaker 1: you know, I'm sure I'm near Julian Barnes, who writes 306 00:20:09,716 --> 00:20:13,996 Speaker 1: every day in his desk at his home. And essentially 307 00:20:14,076 --> 00:20:15,996 Speaker 1: what you're saying is like, how can you possibly be 308 00:20:16,036 --> 00:20:18,676 Speaker 1: a writer and just be sitting at a desk at 309 00:20:18,676 --> 00:20:21,516 Speaker 1: a home in northern London from nine to five, five 310 00:20:21,596 --> 00:20:23,836 Speaker 1: days a week. And so I guess the question is 311 00:20:24,876 --> 00:20:26,916 Speaker 1: which came first for you. Is it the urge to 312 00:20:26,996 --> 00:20:30,276 Speaker 1: travel and writing kind of helped fuel that, or you 313 00:20:30,356 --> 00:20:33,996 Speaker 1: wanted to be this writer and so your responsibility then 314 00:20:34,076 --> 00:20:35,556 Speaker 1: was to have really taken as much of the world 315 00:20:35,596 --> 00:20:38,396 Speaker 1: as you can in this romantic sense. Yeah, this is 316 00:20:38,676 --> 00:20:42,276 Speaker 1: a really good question, or a really good distinction you raise. 317 00:20:42,436 --> 00:20:44,236 Speaker 1: I mean, I guess the first thing I should say 318 00:20:44,316 --> 00:20:46,116 Speaker 1: is that that was just a little sort of joke 319 00:20:46,236 --> 00:20:48,196 Speaker 1: of a paradox that I came up with, and I 320 00:20:49,236 --> 00:20:54,156 Speaker 1: do believe absolutely along with God. I can't remember who 321 00:20:54,276 --> 00:20:56,556 Speaker 1: said it now, it might have been Camu or somebody 322 00:20:56,556 --> 00:20:59,356 Speaker 1: else who said that it's possible to lead a life 323 00:20:59,436 --> 00:21:03,676 Speaker 1: of great adventure without leaving your desk. So there's that 324 00:21:04,316 --> 00:21:07,756 Speaker 1: for me. I found that by the time my first 325 00:21:07,836 --> 00:21:10,076 Speaker 1: novel had come out, called The Color of Memory, to 326 00:21:10,076 --> 00:21:13,436 Speaker 1: set in this one area of London, Brickson in South London, 327 00:21:13,876 --> 00:21:15,916 Speaker 1: and I didn't really have much that I wanted to 328 00:21:15,956 --> 00:21:19,596 Speaker 1: say about Britain after that, And from that point on, 329 00:21:19,636 --> 00:21:22,396 Speaker 1: the two things went hand in hand in that, Yeah, 330 00:21:22,396 --> 00:21:26,476 Speaker 1: I really wanted to see that the world, and I 331 00:21:26,596 --> 00:21:30,756 Speaker 1: found also that by seeing the world I would have 332 00:21:30,996 --> 00:21:34,476 Speaker 1: more to write about. So the pattern that got repeated 333 00:21:34,676 --> 00:21:37,236 Speaker 1: quite often is that I'd arranged to write some sort 334 00:21:37,276 --> 00:21:39,636 Speaker 1: of article about a place, and that was nice because 335 00:21:39,676 --> 00:21:42,916 Speaker 1: it killed several birds with one stone. I got paid, 336 00:21:43,276 --> 00:21:46,036 Speaker 1: the accommodation was covered, all this kind of stuff. But 337 00:21:46,076 --> 00:21:49,436 Speaker 1: then typically what would happen is I'd write the piece 338 00:21:49,476 --> 00:21:52,316 Speaker 1: about the place, and then I'd find that actually the 339 00:21:52,356 --> 00:21:55,716 Speaker 1: place was far more interesting than I could say in 340 00:21:55,796 --> 00:21:59,116 Speaker 1: so many words, and so a larger book would come about. 341 00:21:59,236 --> 00:22:02,596 Speaker 1: So you know, for example, my wife and I were 342 00:22:02,676 --> 00:22:08,116 Speaker 1: very keen to go to Varanassi Bernars in India, so 343 00:22:08,236 --> 00:22:11,876 Speaker 1: I've arranged write an article for a British paper, And 344 00:22:12,356 --> 00:22:15,316 Speaker 1: almost as soon as I got there, I realized that 345 00:22:15,716 --> 00:22:19,756 Speaker 1: this little novel I was writing about Venice set during 346 00:22:19,796 --> 00:22:22,636 Speaker 1: the Venice B and llet. Almost as soon as we 347 00:22:22,796 --> 00:22:26,356 Speaker 1: arrived at the guts on the banks of the Ganges 348 00:22:26,396 --> 00:22:29,076 Speaker 1: in Varanassi, I knew that that book would have to 349 00:22:29,116 --> 00:22:34,236 Speaker 1: be expanded and there'd be a second part set in Varanassi. 350 00:22:34,316 --> 00:22:39,116 Speaker 1: In this epicenter of Hinduism, and so out of an assignment, 351 00:22:39,756 --> 00:22:45,836 Speaker 1: a straightforward travel writing assignment, very quickly that experience led 352 00:22:45,916 --> 00:22:48,596 Speaker 1: to something which was going to be incorporated into a 353 00:22:48,636 --> 00:22:54,796 Speaker 1: work of fiction. I mean, it was so it's fantastic 354 00:22:54,836 --> 00:22:59,156 Speaker 1: to be in Varanassi, but it was even more wonderful 355 00:22:59,276 --> 00:23:03,076 Speaker 1: to go there for me knowing that I was writing 356 00:23:03,116 --> 00:23:06,956 Speaker 1: about it, because it made me especially attentive to what 357 00:23:07,156 --> 00:23:09,396 Speaker 1: was going on. So I was there with my and 358 00:23:09,596 --> 00:23:13,676 Speaker 1: ten I out noticing things that I might not otherwise 359 00:23:13,716 --> 00:23:17,316 Speaker 1: have done, but also trying to arrive at a way 360 00:23:17,356 --> 00:23:22,036 Speaker 1: of understanding of the place, which is in many ways, 361 00:23:22,076 --> 00:23:26,316 Speaker 1: it's incomprehensibly strange. I mean, it's just so far out. 362 00:23:26,516 --> 00:23:30,076 Speaker 1: And the novel that resulted from that trip, Jeff and Venice, 363 00:23:30,356 --> 00:23:34,756 Speaker 1: Death and Vanity, it reads like both a travelogue and 364 00:23:35,276 --> 00:23:40,596 Speaker 1: a novel, a story of discovery. It's also quite spacey 365 00:23:40,836 --> 00:23:46,196 Speaker 1: in places there's lots of sex, drugs and prosecco, and 366 00:23:46,476 --> 00:23:48,716 Speaker 1: most of your writing has a lot of those elements, 367 00:23:48,836 --> 00:23:52,316 Speaker 1: not always prosecco, And it made me wonder, what does 368 00:23:52,316 --> 00:23:55,516 Speaker 1: your family make of your writing? You. As one gets older, 369 00:23:55,556 --> 00:23:59,996 Speaker 1: one reflects on one's life, and one of the great privileges. 370 00:24:00,036 --> 00:24:01,836 Speaker 1: I think of my life is that I came from 371 00:24:01,876 --> 00:24:04,436 Speaker 1: a family of non readers, And what that means is 372 00:24:04,476 --> 00:24:07,276 Speaker 1: that when I sort of discovered this thing of reading, 373 00:24:07,316 --> 00:24:10,956 Speaker 1: it was a total revel elation. And then the other thing. 374 00:24:11,516 --> 00:24:15,196 Speaker 1: I feel so lucky that my parents, although they read 375 00:24:15,236 --> 00:24:17,356 Speaker 1: some of my articles, I don't think they ever read 376 00:24:17,396 --> 00:24:20,956 Speaker 1: any of my books. And so when I was writing 377 00:24:20,996 --> 00:24:24,356 Speaker 1: say Paris Trance or Jeff in Venice or any of them, 378 00:24:24,356 --> 00:24:28,116 Speaker 1: really it was a real sense of liberation that I 379 00:24:28,196 --> 00:24:33,516 Speaker 1: wasn't having my mum looking over my shoulder when I 380 00:24:33,596 --> 00:24:38,196 Speaker 1: was writing that stuff. That was a real sense of liberation. 381 00:24:39,996 --> 00:24:44,036 Speaker 1: This all reminds me of something the comedian Pete Holmes 382 00:24:44,236 --> 00:24:48,516 Speaker 1: once said about how it feels odd bringing your partner 383 00:24:48,556 --> 00:24:50,756 Speaker 1: home for the first time to meet your parents, because 384 00:24:51,116 --> 00:24:56,836 Speaker 1: you're basically saying, mom, dad, here's what I'm into, this 385 00:24:56,996 --> 00:25:01,516 Speaker 1: big reveal of your private life. Fortunately, my parents don't 386 00:25:01,516 --> 00:25:05,116 Speaker 1: listen to my podcast, So all right, I want to 387 00:25:05,156 --> 00:25:07,716 Speaker 1: step back for a second. You have traveled from Tahiti 388 00:25:08,476 --> 00:25:12,596 Speaker 1: to n Is to New Orleans and everywhere in between. 389 00:25:13,196 --> 00:25:15,876 Speaker 1: What is a lesson that you can pass along to 390 00:25:16,036 --> 00:25:18,916 Speaker 1: other folks? What is traveling taught you. It seems to 391 00:25:18,916 --> 00:25:21,436 Speaker 1: me one of the lessons of travel, and it's a 392 00:25:21,556 --> 00:25:26,156 Speaker 1: very very simple one, but it's a profound one too. 393 00:25:26,516 --> 00:25:30,756 Speaker 1: I mean, we're all aware of the incredible inequality of 394 00:25:30,796 --> 00:25:33,876 Speaker 1: wealth in the world. I was staying one time at 395 00:25:33,876 --> 00:25:36,756 Speaker 1: the Four Seasons in I think it was Bombay, and 396 00:25:36,876 --> 00:25:39,596 Speaker 1: it's one of the quirks of where the Four Seasons 397 00:25:39,716 --> 00:25:43,996 Speaker 1: is this splendid hotel, the right outside it there's this sprawling, 398 00:25:44,316 --> 00:25:48,556 Speaker 1: sprawling slum, and you know, it really is the case 399 00:25:48,756 --> 00:25:51,956 Speaker 1: that as you walk around, you're aware that, oh, I 400 00:25:52,236 --> 00:25:56,236 Speaker 1: actually I've got more value in my hotel safe than 401 00:25:56,276 --> 00:25:59,436 Speaker 1: these people will probably have in their lives. So given 402 00:25:59,476 --> 00:26:04,756 Speaker 1: that terrible inequality, it's amazing really that you don't get 403 00:26:04,836 --> 00:26:07,156 Speaker 1: robbed all the time. And of course you don't want to, 404 00:26:07,716 --> 00:26:10,316 Speaker 1: you know, you don't want to behave stupidly and recklessly. 405 00:26:10,516 --> 00:26:14,996 Speaker 1: But generally speaking, isn't it amazing how little we have 406 00:26:15,196 --> 00:26:19,836 Speaker 1: to fear from other people. Generally most people are no 407 00:26:19,916 --> 00:26:25,556 Speaker 1: more thinking of harming us than we would. Then, you 408 00:26:25,636 --> 00:26:27,836 Speaker 1: said once, the lesson of travel seems to be so 409 00:26:27,956 --> 00:26:30,076 Speaker 1: banal but so great, which is the people are just 410 00:26:30,196 --> 00:26:34,156 Speaker 1: so amazingly decent the world over, which which I've also 411 00:26:34,396 --> 00:26:36,116 Speaker 1: you know, that's the nature of my show is kind 412 00:26:36,116 --> 00:26:38,436 Speaker 1: of going into these towns and you kind of want 413 00:26:38,476 --> 00:26:40,716 Speaker 1: to get invited back to someone's home for dinner to 414 00:26:40,756 --> 00:26:43,756 Speaker 1: see how they really live. And it's incredible how often 415 00:26:44,276 --> 00:26:47,036 Speaker 1: one succeeded. But it is definitely one of the most 416 00:26:47,076 --> 00:26:49,076 Speaker 1: powerful parts of it. Yeah, I mean, that's all true. 417 00:26:49,076 --> 00:26:52,596 Speaker 1: Although I mean I'm so keen to not be a sentimentalist. 418 00:26:53,636 --> 00:26:56,756 Speaker 1: So while preparing for this chat, I came across a 419 00:26:56,916 --> 00:27:00,956 Speaker 1: video online of you and the writer Sam Libsite, the 420 00:27:01,076 --> 00:27:04,756 Speaker 1: lovely and very funny human being that is Sam. You 421 00:27:04,876 --> 00:27:07,956 Speaker 1: two are talking and you start talking about Jack Carowack, 422 00:27:08,636 --> 00:27:10,916 Speaker 1: and Sam was saying that he hadn't read him since 423 00:27:10,996 --> 00:27:13,836 Speaker 1: high school, and you were saying that you still read him, 424 00:27:14,516 --> 00:27:18,316 Speaker 1: And honestly, I was a little bit heartened by a response. 425 00:27:18,676 --> 00:27:23,196 Speaker 1: Although I haven't read him recently, my primary time with 426 00:27:23,276 --> 00:27:26,116 Speaker 1: him was spent in high school. But I don't think 427 00:27:26,156 --> 00:27:29,636 Speaker 1: I've ever really recovered, you know, I think the ripples 428 00:27:30,036 --> 00:27:33,956 Speaker 1: from his writing continue to emanate in my life. So 429 00:27:34,036 --> 00:27:35,236 Speaker 1: I was wondering if you could talk to me a 430 00:27:35,276 --> 00:27:39,196 Speaker 1: little bit about your relationship with this patron saint of 431 00:27:39,276 --> 00:27:43,556 Speaker 1: road trips. In America. Yeah. I mean my experience was 432 00:27:43,796 --> 00:27:47,236 Speaker 1: similar to yours, and I think I first read him 433 00:27:47,436 --> 00:27:51,356 Speaker 1: unsuccessfully when I was young. It was that time at school, 434 00:27:51,476 --> 00:27:54,756 Speaker 1: you know, when the teachers are all trying really hard 435 00:27:54,836 --> 00:27:58,516 Speaker 1: to persuade you that literature is not old and boring. 436 00:27:58,756 --> 00:28:01,836 Speaker 1: But when they first asked us to read On the Road, 437 00:28:01,836 --> 00:28:04,356 Speaker 1: they went too far the other way. It was too cool, 438 00:28:04,676 --> 00:28:06,396 Speaker 1: so I just didn't get it. And then I think 439 00:28:06,436 --> 00:28:09,476 Speaker 1: I successfully read it a few years later, when I 440 00:28:09,556 --> 00:28:14,076 Speaker 1: was nineteen or twenty, and of course I loved it. 441 00:28:15,476 --> 00:28:19,156 Speaker 1: I've ended up rereading On the Road every five years, 442 00:28:19,196 --> 00:28:21,516 Speaker 1: and for me, it just gets better and better. I've 443 00:28:21,556 --> 00:28:24,396 Speaker 1: never grown out of it. I mean, the book changes 444 00:28:24,596 --> 00:28:27,156 Speaker 1: as you become more familiar with it. It just seems 445 00:28:27,156 --> 00:28:32,876 Speaker 1: to become increasingly increasingly moving and wonderful. What about it 446 00:28:32,956 --> 00:28:36,756 Speaker 1: still still grabs you? Is it the writing itself, the energy, 447 00:28:37,036 --> 00:28:40,556 Speaker 1: or his role in America in the history of writing. Well, 448 00:28:40,636 --> 00:28:44,156 Speaker 1: I suppose I could give you a one word answer 449 00:28:44,196 --> 00:28:46,396 Speaker 1: to your question what is it about On the Road, 450 00:28:46,436 --> 00:28:49,916 Speaker 1: And I would say it's the everything about it. But 451 00:28:49,996 --> 00:28:54,236 Speaker 1: I guess I should emphasize two things. One Obviously, as 452 00:28:54,276 --> 00:28:58,676 Speaker 1: soon as you have an actual physical journey. Then you 453 00:28:58,796 --> 00:29:04,636 Speaker 1: have automatic and inherent narrative interest. You start somewhere and 454 00:29:04,716 --> 00:29:07,556 Speaker 1: you end up somewhere else, and you start on page 455 00:29:07,556 --> 00:29:09,916 Speaker 1: one and you end up on page whatever it is. 456 00:29:10,316 --> 00:29:14,756 Speaker 1: I think that's a crucial thing, this combination of geographical 457 00:29:14,916 --> 00:29:18,996 Speaker 1: movement and our movement through the pages. So there's that. 458 00:29:19,196 --> 00:29:23,076 Speaker 1: I think stylistically, it's really I'm in the energy of 459 00:29:23,116 --> 00:29:27,276 Speaker 1: the prose, and crucially it's lyricism. It seems to me 460 00:29:27,836 --> 00:29:32,756 Speaker 1: Karroak is a gorgeously lyrical writer, and of course there's 461 00:29:32,796 --> 00:29:35,916 Speaker 1: a you know, there's a kind of lyrical excess in it. 462 00:29:35,956 --> 00:29:38,156 Speaker 1: But it seems to me a condition of youth in 463 00:29:38,196 --> 00:29:41,036 Speaker 1: a way is that you're not able to rastion the lyricism, 464 00:29:41,476 --> 00:29:45,396 Speaker 1: but the abiding thing which gets stronger as you as 465 00:29:45,436 --> 00:29:50,116 Speaker 1: you age. It's such a wonderful novel about friendship and loss, 466 00:29:50,836 --> 00:29:54,676 Speaker 1: and in particular, you know, there's the famous Dean Moriarty 467 00:29:55,036 --> 00:29:58,996 Speaker 1: Neil Cassidy character, and the sort of poignance of the 468 00:29:59,076 --> 00:30:02,396 Speaker 1: sense of him being sort of left behind, stranded. I mean, 469 00:30:02,436 --> 00:30:06,356 Speaker 1: that really is one of the enduring things about the books. 470 00:30:06,956 --> 00:30:10,396 Speaker 1: That's funny. I don't think of the sadness around Neil 471 00:30:10,436 --> 00:30:13,876 Speaker 1: I just think of their kind of bonhomie enjoy so 472 00:30:14,556 --> 00:30:17,396 Speaker 1: let me maybe I'll have to revisit it soon once 473 00:30:17,476 --> 00:30:21,436 Speaker 1: I'm done reading your latest Jeff, thank you so much 474 00:30:21,516 --> 00:30:24,956 Speaker 1: for coming to chat with me. I really appreciated this conversation. 475 00:30:25,356 --> 00:30:27,716 Speaker 1: Thank you, Brendon. It's been a great pleasure. I've ready 476 00:30:27,796 --> 00:30:39,996 Speaker 1: enjoyed talking with you. Thanks. Hello. All right, once again, 477 00:30:40,036 --> 00:30:43,196 Speaker 1: that was Jeff Dyer. His latest book is called The 478 00:30:43,276 --> 00:30:47,556 Speaker 1: Last Days of Roger Federer, and in it he discusses, 479 00:30:47,596 --> 00:30:53,236 Speaker 1: along with other luminaries, the aforementioned Jack Carrouac. So check 480 00:30:53,236 --> 00:30:56,476 Speaker 1: it out. All right, We're gonna take a quick break, 481 00:30:56,956 --> 00:30:59,036 Speaker 1: and when I get back, I'll be talking to actor, 482 00:30:59,396 --> 00:31:03,116 Speaker 1: writer and director Coleman Domingo, who will be here to 483 00:31:03,316 --> 00:31:06,796 Speaker 1: help answer some of your travel questions. I think it's 484 00:31:06,836 --> 00:31:11,396 Speaker 1: actually a crime for children to sit in business class 485 00:31:11,476 --> 00:31:15,556 Speaker 1: or first class. Do not at me, at him, not me, 486 00:31:16,076 --> 00:31:40,516 Speaker 1: not lost. We'll be right back. Welcome back, everybody. We've 487 00:31:40,556 --> 00:31:44,156 Speaker 1: been on a journey this episode from Tangier to French 488 00:31:44,236 --> 00:31:48,356 Speaker 1: Polynesia to Varanasi, and now we're about to go to 489 00:31:48,396 --> 00:31:52,236 Speaker 1: Los Angeles, where the actor Coleman Domingo is going to 490 00:31:52,276 --> 00:31:56,876 Speaker 1: help me answer your travel questions. Now. His face might 491 00:31:56,916 --> 00:31:59,356 Speaker 1: not immediately pop your mind, but you've certainly seen him. 492 00:31:59,436 --> 00:32:02,236 Speaker 1: He is a writer, director, and actor who is best 493 00:32:02,276 --> 00:32:06,476 Speaker 1: known for his roles in Zola, Candy Man, and most recently, 494 00:32:06,676 --> 00:32:09,556 Speaker 1: he won an Emmy for his performance and You've Fororia, 495 00:32:10,276 --> 00:32:14,436 Speaker 1: in which he plays Ali, the narcotics anonymous sponsor of 496 00:32:14,636 --> 00:32:18,276 Speaker 1: Zendaiah's character. Here's a clip. You think you're hard hack, 497 00:32:18,436 --> 00:32:20,796 Speaker 1: I'm harder. You think you're tough, I'm tougher. You got 498 00:32:20,796 --> 00:32:23,396 Speaker 1: clean and want to kill yourself. Same motherfucking story here. 499 00:32:23,516 --> 00:32:25,236 Speaker 1: You want to know why, You want to know why, 500 00:32:25,236 --> 00:32:26,716 Speaker 1: I'll tell you why. Because you don't know how to 501 00:32:26,756 --> 00:32:29,316 Speaker 1: live life. You don't have the tools. You're too busy 502 00:32:29,556 --> 00:32:32,276 Speaker 1: run around trying to bullshit everybody to think in your heart, 503 00:32:32,276 --> 00:32:33,996 Speaker 1: and you don't give a fuck one of reality. You 504 00:32:33,996 --> 00:32:35,596 Speaker 1: give so much of a fuck you get even bear 505 00:32:35,636 --> 00:32:38,396 Speaker 1: to be alive. So guess what new rule? No more 506 00:32:38,436 --> 00:32:40,796 Speaker 1: waste of my motherfucking time. You want to use us, 507 00:32:40,836 --> 00:32:42,276 Speaker 1: But the least you can do is be honest. Own 508 00:32:42,316 --> 00:32:47,476 Speaker 1: that ship. Yeah it is not a romcom. In addition 509 00:32:47,476 --> 00:32:50,836 Speaker 1: to Ephoria, last year, Coleman released an animated short film 510 00:32:50,956 --> 00:32:53,796 Speaker 1: called New Moon, which was a tribute to his mother 511 00:32:53,916 --> 00:32:56,236 Speaker 1: and a love letter to all black mothers and sons. 512 00:32:56,716 --> 00:32:59,396 Speaker 1: And he recently wrapped production on The Color Purple, the 513 00:32:59,436 --> 00:33:02,756 Speaker 1: newest film adaptation of Alice Walker's book, where he plays 514 00:33:02,756 --> 00:33:07,036 Speaker 1: the abusive and terrifying husband Mister So Yeah. He does 515 00:33:07,276 --> 00:33:10,236 Speaker 1: all sorts of roles. One nice with Coleman, I asked 516 00:33:10,316 --> 00:33:13,916 Speaker 1: him how he keeps his head straight while bouncing between 517 00:33:13,996 --> 00:33:18,116 Speaker 1: such intense and different roles. It's wild. You gotta find, 518 00:33:18,236 --> 00:33:20,476 Speaker 1: you gotta find ways to have light in your life. 519 00:33:20,516 --> 00:33:24,396 Speaker 1: And I think that I think that I've been gifted 520 00:33:24,436 --> 00:33:27,236 Speaker 1: and I'll just say gifted because it's a huge responsibility. 521 00:33:27,676 --> 00:33:31,196 Speaker 1: Roles like Mysta and Rustin pretty much in the same 522 00:33:31,236 --> 00:33:34,516 Speaker 1: calendar year, and they're like heavy duty, heavy lifting work. 523 00:33:35,156 --> 00:33:37,836 Speaker 1: And I now have a practice of making sure that 524 00:33:37,876 --> 00:33:40,716 Speaker 1: I do things like something physical, like I'll go for 525 00:33:40,756 --> 00:33:43,476 Speaker 1: a run, I become a runner. Basically, I'll do things 526 00:33:43,476 --> 00:33:45,436 Speaker 1: to make sure I take care of myself one days off, 527 00:33:45,516 --> 00:33:49,556 Speaker 1: like I buy myself flowers, I eat really well, I 528 00:33:49,676 --> 00:33:52,276 Speaker 1: go to amazing restaurants or wherever I am. And I 529 00:33:52,356 --> 00:33:54,076 Speaker 1: had to tell my business manager that he was like, well, 530 00:33:54,116 --> 00:33:56,476 Speaker 1: you know, You're spending is gone up a little while 531 00:33:56,476 --> 00:33:58,996 Speaker 1: you're in production. I'm like, yeah, because it's called self 532 00:33:59,036 --> 00:34:01,476 Speaker 1: care because I have to really have to eat well, 533 00:34:01,596 --> 00:34:05,596 Speaker 1: I have to nourish my body and my mind in atmosphere, 534 00:34:05,996 --> 00:34:07,756 Speaker 1: I have to do all of those things. So that's 535 00:34:07,756 --> 00:34:08,996 Speaker 1: all a part of the work as well. That I 536 00:34:09,116 --> 00:34:11,236 Speaker 1: realized that it can't just be about the work, because 537 00:34:11,236 --> 00:34:12,876 Speaker 1: if it's just that, I think you may go a 538 00:34:12,876 --> 00:34:14,556 Speaker 1: little nuts in a way, if you're just in that 539 00:34:14,676 --> 00:34:16,196 Speaker 1: dark space all the time, Like, if you're going to 540 00:34:16,276 --> 00:34:17,996 Speaker 1: go this far on one side, you need something to 541 00:34:18,396 --> 00:34:22,236 Speaker 1: bring on the other. Um. Absolutely, I never thought about that, 542 00:34:22,316 --> 00:34:24,756 Speaker 1: how Like, yeah, you're playing a villain all day and 543 00:34:24,796 --> 00:34:26,956 Speaker 1: then yes, like maybe I do need to take a 544 00:34:26,956 --> 00:34:29,276 Speaker 1: bath and have a nice dinner just to remind myself 545 00:34:29,356 --> 00:34:33,756 Speaker 1: that I'm Coleman, I'm human. Yeah, that's that's exactly it. 546 00:34:33,836 --> 00:34:36,396 Speaker 1: That's why you have to remind yourself who you are actually, Like, 547 00:34:36,436 --> 00:34:38,316 Speaker 1: I stay in it. When I'm in it, I'm in it, 548 00:34:38,836 --> 00:34:41,676 Speaker 1: but I still must come home and take care of 549 00:34:41,876 --> 00:34:44,036 Speaker 1: this human being that I am. Yeah, do you still 550 00:34:44,036 --> 00:34:47,356 Speaker 1: have the show? Bottomless Brunch at Coleman's Bottoms A bunch 551 00:34:47,396 --> 00:34:52,316 Speaker 1: of Colemans. We finished our fourth season and we're transitioning 552 00:34:52,316 --> 00:34:55,356 Speaker 1: to another show, which is sort of a takeoff of Bottomless. 553 00:34:55,476 --> 00:34:57,356 Speaker 1: I'm happy to hear that actually com because I wrote 554 00:34:57,356 --> 00:35:00,996 Speaker 1: a book called Brunch as Hell. I've been pretty anti 555 00:35:01,076 --> 00:35:05,036 Speaker 1: brunch for a lot of my your anti why you 556 00:35:05,076 --> 00:35:07,996 Speaker 1: hate brunch? Who hates brunch? I actually said to people, 557 00:35:08,116 --> 00:35:10,276 Speaker 1: no one hates brunch. That's why I had a brunch show. 558 00:35:11,236 --> 00:35:13,156 Speaker 1: No one says, oh, I hate going to brunch. You 559 00:35:13,196 --> 00:35:15,716 Speaker 1: hate going I hate going to brunch. I think I 560 00:35:15,716 --> 00:35:18,636 Speaker 1: think it well, I think it's you have many people 561 00:35:18,676 --> 00:35:20,916 Speaker 1: they work Monday to variety. Maybe it's the filly in me. 562 00:35:21,236 --> 00:35:23,556 Speaker 1: You have two days off a week. You're gonna stab 563 00:35:23,676 --> 00:35:25,516 Speaker 1: one of those days in the heart with a with 564 00:35:25,556 --> 00:35:29,356 Speaker 1: a mimosa at two pm. I feel like, um, well, 565 00:35:29,396 --> 00:35:30,636 Speaker 1: you don't want to you don't want to chill, you 566 00:35:30,636 --> 00:35:33,556 Speaker 1: don't want to have like Funday Sunday. Yeah, so what 567 00:35:33,556 --> 00:35:35,836 Speaker 1: what do you so? What do you do instead? You 568 00:35:35,876 --> 00:35:38,276 Speaker 1: sit mad? What do you do? I mean sometimes I 569 00:35:38,316 --> 00:35:41,116 Speaker 1: do sit mad, but sometimes you know, I work on 570 00:35:41,476 --> 00:35:45,476 Speaker 1: creative projects for myself. I cook breakfast at home. You're 571 00:35:45,516 --> 00:35:48,436 Speaker 1: not no, no, I'm not buying it. What you have 572 00:35:48,476 --> 00:35:50,636 Speaker 1: to do that's still doing creative work. You're still doing 573 00:35:50,676 --> 00:35:54,556 Speaker 1: creative work. You should be doing things like nothing brunches, okay, 574 00:35:54,836 --> 00:35:57,636 Speaker 1: to eat and drink and talk all right? That gives 575 00:35:57,636 --> 00:36:00,836 Speaker 1: me anxiety? Did you nothing? So? Really? But I liked 576 00:36:00,836 --> 00:36:02,356 Speaker 1: your calling me on them. You're not You're not wired. 577 00:36:02,436 --> 00:36:04,916 Speaker 1: You're not wired that you're not. I just feel like, um, 578 00:36:04,956 --> 00:36:06,796 Speaker 1: I feel like, yeah, I got errands to do, I 579 00:36:06,836 --> 00:36:08,836 Speaker 1: got things. Yeah. Why do you think you still have 580 00:36:08,876 --> 00:36:10,636 Speaker 1: a lot of this is I'm turning the tables on you. 581 00:36:10,716 --> 00:36:12,316 Speaker 1: Do you realize that? Why do you feel that you 582 00:36:12,316 --> 00:36:13,796 Speaker 1: have to and now I'm your therapist. Why do you 583 00:36:13,796 --> 00:36:15,436 Speaker 1: always feel like you have something? I don't know. I 584 00:36:15,756 --> 00:36:18,956 Speaker 1: feel like maybe, um, I feel those hours by myself 585 00:36:18,996 --> 00:36:21,916 Speaker 1: like not. I guess I work sometimes I feel anxious, 586 00:36:22,476 --> 00:36:25,036 Speaker 1: and when I just have time to myself, I'm less anxious. 587 00:36:25,076 --> 00:36:26,756 Speaker 1: And then I feel like then I need to take 588 00:36:26,796 --> 00:36:30,556 Speaker 1: advantage of those moments and a product and yeah, productivity. 589 00:36:30,596 --> 00:36:32,036 Speaker 1: And it's a bit of a curse. Maybe it's I 590 00:36:32,076 --> 00:36:35,676 Speaker 1: got I got the flu called capitalism. Dude, I think 591 00:36:35,676 --> 00:36:37,836 Speaker 1: you might need brunch in your life. You could use it, 592 00:36:37,956 --> 00:36:39,596 Speaker 1: all right, Well if I come through because you own 593 00:36:39,596 --> 00:36:42,036 Speaker 1: a bars that right in La the Wolves. Yeah, I'm 594 00:36:42,036 --> 00:36:44,956 Speaker 1: a co owner of the Wolves. I'm of a bar 595 00:36:45,076 --> 00:36:47,036 Speaker 1: in downtown LA and it's a it's a good place 596 00:36:47,116 --> 00:36:49,236 Speaker 1: to go to brunch. And maybe if I'm in LA, 597 00:36:49,556 --> 00:36:51,276 Speaker 1: you can't Yeah, if you're in La, you can't bring 598 00:36:51,316 --> 00:36:52,756 Speaker 1: anything with you. I don't want to look over and like, 599 00:36:52,756 --> 00:36:54,916 Speaker 1: what creative project are you doing over there? All right, 600 00:36:55,036 --> 00:36:56,876 Speaker 1: all right, I'll just show up and we'll do it. 601 00:36:57,116 --> 00:37:00,116 Speaker 1: So you enjoy travel. Do you have any broad travel 602 00:37:00,156 --> 00:37:02,596 Speaker 1: wisdom to share, like when you're when you're going places 603 00:37:02,676 --> 00:37:06,356 Speaker 1: for pleasure? Do you have any guidelines? What's funny? I do? 604 00:37:06,556 --> 00:37:08,756 Speaker 1: I do. Actually, let me just tell you about my 605 00:37:08,796 --> 00:37:14,596 Speaker 1: fifty birthday travels. This will explain everything. For my fiftieth birthday. 606 00:37:14,956 --> 00:37:17,556 Speaker 1: I knew I wanted to spend three weeks in Europe 607 00:37:18,036 --> 00:37:20,876 Speaker 1: where I don't know, but I did book my flights 608 00:37:21,276 --> 00:37:23,796 Speaker 1: in and out of London, and then it was about 609 00:37:23,836 --> 00:37:26,756 Speaker 1: once I'm there, I will go where the weather takes 610 00:37:26,796 --> 00:37:29,276 Speaker 1: me or where I feel like going. So I would 611 00:37:29,316 --> 00:37:33,756 Speaker 1: go from London to Paris, and then I went to Berlin. 612 00:37:34,196 --> 00:37:36,436 Speaker 1: I wanted to go somewhere that never been and I 613 00:37:36,516 --> 00:37:38,716 Speaker 1: was like, huh, is it Prague or is it Vienna, 614 00:37:39,116 --> 00:37:40,916 Speaker 1: and we looked at Vienna and we're like, let's go 615 00:37:40,956 --> 00:37:43,996 Speaker 1: to Vienna. I don't know anything about Vienna, maybe maybe 616 00:37:44,036 --> 00:37:47,996 Speaker 1: the sausages or a Mozart. So we booked a flight, 617 00:37:48,076 --> 00:37:50,556 Speaker 1: got to Vienna, got a hotel, and then was like, 618 00:37:50,716 --> 00:37:53,516 Speaker 1: we're here, what is this place? And then we found 619 00:37:53,516 --> 00:37:57,076 Speaker 1: incredible museums and walks and restaurants and everything and just 620 00:37:57,076 --> 00:37:59,076 Speaker 1: went down a rabbit hole. That's what I love to do. 621 00:37:59,156 --> 00:38:01,596 Speaker 1: I'm going to a major city, I'll try to find 622 00:38:01,716 --> 00:38:04,036 Speaker 1: like it sounds very bougie, but I'll try to find 623 00:38:04,116 --> 00:38:08,676 Speaker 1: like a store like Gucci, so then I know that 624 00:38:08,716 --> 00:38:10,436 Speaker 1: I'm in a decent area. If I want a five 625 00:38:10,476 --> 00:38:13,036 Speaker 1: star hotel, I'll find it near there. If I want 626 00:38:13,076 --> 00:38:15,316 Speaker 1: more of a four star artistic like if I go 627 00:38:15,356 --> 00:38:17,636 Speaker 1: to Mexico City, I'm like, oh, I think I want 628 00:38:17,636 --> 00:38:19,356 Speaker 1: to be in the ault, so I will look up 629 00:38:19,516 --> 00:38:22,716 Speaker 1: hipster coffee shops something like that. So okay, that puts 630 00:38:22,756 --> 00:38:24,876 Speaker 1: me in Roma. I'm going to be in Roma then great, 631 00:38:24,956 --> 00:38:26,676 Speaker 1: so I'll get the hotel there and I'm like, this 632 00:38:26,756 --> 00:38:28,556 Speaker 1: is the neighborhood I need to be love depending on 633 00:38:28,596 --> 00:38:30,796 Speaker 1: the experience, so I just put myself in a place 634 00:38:30,796 --> 00:38:33,076 Speaker 1: and then figure you're like a flaneur who would just 635 00:38:33,076 --> 00:38:35,676 Speaker 1: stroll around cities. But you're like that, and maybe with 636 00:38:35,716 --> 00:38:38,596 Speaker 1: a larger area to rome, You're like, I'll put myself 637 00:38:38,596 --> 00:38:40,356 Speaker 1: in a place and then I'm gonna go where my 638 00:38:40,436 --> 00:38:43,876 Speaker 1: instincts tell me to go and just relax. Yeah. I 639 00:38:43,956 --> 00:38:46,596 Speaker 1: support that, absolutely, I support it, and I feel like 640 00:38:46,596 --> 00:38:48,876 Speaker 1: I'm very like you know, I'm very easy about what 641 00:38:48,916 --> 00:38:50,596 Speaker 1: it has to be at I think when you have 642 00:38:51,116 --> 00:38:54,556 Speaker 1: almost low or no expectations of what this city is 643 00:38:54,596 --> 00:38:57,596 Speaker 1: going to offer, everything, everything is a treat because you 644 00:38:57,636 --> 00:39:00,356 Speaker 1: take the city as it is. You know, I do. 645 00:39:00,556 --> 00:39:04,476 Speaker 1: I do all right, Coleman, despite your blind spot about brunch, 646 00:39:04,836 --> 00:39:07,596 Speaker 1: you strike me as a wise man. Are you ready 647 00:39:07,676 --> 00:39:10,996 Speaker 1: to help my audience with travel eticet questions? Sure? All right? 648 00:39:10,996 --> 00:39:14,036 Speaker 1: This first one comes from the Kole from Chicago and 649 00:39:14,156 --> 00:39:16,956 Speaker 1: Nicole rites. Recently, I went on a trip with some 650 00:39:16,996 --> 00:39:19,956 Speaker 1: old college friends. We went to Nashville for a girls' weekend. 651 00:39:20,436 --> 00:39:22,756 Speaker 1: On the first night, we ordered the tasting menu at 652 00:39:22,756 --> 00:39:25,276 Speaker 1: a Michelin started restaurant, and one of my friends, who 653 00:39:25,276 --> 00:39:28,436 Speaker 1: has gotten increasingly fussy as she's gotten older, felt ill 654 00:39:28,516 --> 00:39:31,796 Speaker 1: after our appetizers, so we ended the dinner early and 655 00:39:31,836 --> 00:39:33,876 Speaker 1: returned to the hotel. So her friend was like, not 656 00:39:33,956 --> 00:39:37,556 Speaker 1: feeling great, kind of short circuited their Michelin dinner. Ultimately, 657 00:39:37,596 --> 00:39:40,276 Speaker 1: she was fine. The next night, we went out to 658 00:39:40,316 --> 00:39:42,516 Speaker 1: see live music, and after one round of drinks, she 659 00:39:42,556 --> 00:39:45,396 Speaker 1: announced she wanted to leave. I offered to get her 660 00:39:45,396 --> 00:39:48,156 Speaker 1: ear an uber, and she was offended that we weren't 661 00:39:48,156 --> 00:39:50,676 Speaker 1: all ready to leave with her. What was the right 662 00:39:50,716 --> 00:39:52,996 Speaker 1: thing to do do when you're making emotion Get her to 663 00:39:53,116 --> 00:39:57,276 Speaker 1: fuck off that trip? Yeah, sorry, old friend, Yeah, old friends. 664 00:39:57,276 --> 00:39:58,956 Speaker 1: She's changed the way. She's not like she used to 665 00:39:58,956 --> 00:40:00,876 Speaker 1: be anymore. She needs be in bed at nine and 666 00:40:00,996 --> 00:40:03,916 Speaker 1: she needs her her little meal whatever, whatever makes her 667 00:40:03,916 --> 00:40:05,836 Speaker 1: feel good. She wasn't meant to go on this trip. 668 00:40:05,996 --> 00:40:08,076 Speaker 1: She should have known. She should have pulled back. I'm like, Yo, 669 00:40:08,116 --> 00:40:10,556 Speaker 1: you get an uber, going to ruin this everybody, And Yo, 670 00:40:10,556 --> 00:40:13,036 Speaker 1: we're gonna talk Missil the Shout restaurant. We're going You're 671 00:40:13,036 --> 00:40:15,076 Speaker 1: gotta be a little cutthroat about stuff like that. You're like, no, 672 00:40:15,116 --> 00:40:17,356 Speaker 1: you're you can handle it. Sorry, that's fair. I think 673 00:40:17,396 --> 00:40:18,956 Speaker 1: like you look him in the eye one time, you're like, 674 00:40:18,996 --> 00:40:21,556 Speaker 1: this is your call, and then after that we're all adults. 675 00:40:21,956 --> 00:40:24,036 Speaker 1: Her friend was gonna have a problem no matter what 676 00:40:25,636 --> 00:40:27,596 Speaker 1: day one. You should have known what she got sick 677 00:40:27,636 --> 00:40:34,796 Speaker 1: off the appetizers. No boy, no Coleman, I agree with him. No, okay. 678 00:40:34,836 --> 00:40:38,436 Speaker 1: This next question comes from Dan from Michigan. Dan asks, 679 00:40:39,396 --> 00:40:42,516 Speaker 1: am I obligated to sit next to someone's pet on 680 00:40:42,556 --> 00:40:46,436 Speaker 1: the airplane? I think like there might be rules and regulations, 681 00:40:46,476 --> 00:40:48,596 Speaker 1: but I guess the question is, how do you feel 682 00:40:48,596 --> 00:40:53,356 Speaker 1: about pets on airplanes and people's politics around them? Well, 683 00:40:54,436 --> 00:40:56,316 Speaker 1: I feel like you should get I don't know. I 684 00:40:56,316 --> 00:40:58,796 Speaker 1: feel like you should get an alert or something, yeah, 685 00:40:58,796 --> 00:41:00,556 Speaker 1: to let you know I feel okay with it, And 686 00:41:00,716 --> 00:41:02,556 Speaker 1: would you want to move or something. I feel like 687 00:41:02,876 --> 00:41:04,476 Speaker 1: I feel like it should be known if you bought 688 00:41:04,476 --> 00:41:06,396 Speaker 1: a dog, you know, if you have a dog or cat, 689 00:41:06,396 --> 00:41:08,756 Speaker 1: because you could be allergic to Yeah to it. I 690 00:41:08,756 --> 00:41:10,996 Speaker 1: mean I am allergic to dogs and cats, but I 691 00:41:10,996 --> 00:41:12,796 Speaker 1: think that's the same. Yeah. I think that's a good thought. 692 00:41:12,836 --> 00:41:15,956 Speaker 1: Like I think in the past five to ten years, 693 00:41:15,956 --> 00:41:20,116 Speaker 1: we've seen pets enter places they never were entering before. Like, 694 00:41:20,196 --> 00:41:22,436 Speaker 1: I feel like they just are more restaurants, more cafes, 695 00:41:22,436 --> 00:41:24,836 Speaker 1: and generally I'm okay with that. Pets make people happy, 696 00:41:24,996 --> 00:41:27,716 Speaker 1: but as someone who has allergies, especially on a long flight, 697 00:41:28,076 --> 00:41:30,156 Speaker 1: sometimes that's the biggest budget purchase of the year as 698 00:41:30,156 --> 00:41:31,916 Speaker 1: a plane ticket, and to sit next to a cat, 699 00:41:32,116 --> 00:41:33,756 Speaker 1: I think a little bit of like, now we're at 700 00:41:33,796 --> 00:41:35,276 Speaker 1: the frit We've been doing this long enough, we need 701 00:41:35,276 --> 00:41:38,596 Speaker 1: to have some rules and regulations. So I think so too, 702 00:41:38,756 --> 00:41:41,156 Speaker 1: that which brings me to something that there has nothing 703 00:41:41,196 --> 00:41:42,436 Speaker 1: to do with this, but something to do with this. 704 00:41:42,836 --> 00:41:46,116 Speaker 1: I think it's I think it's actually a crime for 705 00:41:46,276 --> 00:41:50,676 Speaker 1: children to sit in business class of first, Okay, all right, 706 00:41:50,876 --> 00:41:56,596 Speaker 1: why because what do you? What kind of business do you? Yeah? 707 00:41:56,636 --> 00:41:58,996 Speaker 1: And then a baby there was a baby crying in 708 00:41:59,036 --> 00:42:01,196 Speaker 1: business class. I'm like, these seats cost a lot of 709 00:42:01,236 --> 00:42:05,076 Speaker 1: money and your baby's crying. I sound like a horrible person, 710 00:42:05,116 --> 00:42:07,236 Speaker 1: don't I. But I direct your emails and tweets to 711 00:42:07,316 --> 00:42:11,116 Speaker 1: Colvid Domingo. I'm just I've I've this is not my 712 00:42:11,156 --> 00:42:15,156 Speaker 1: first rodeo going. I can't go on record somewhere. I 713 00:42:15,196 --> 00:42:19,356 Speaker 1: can't go on record supporting that. All right, So going 714 00:42:19,396 --> 00:42:21,916 Speaker 1: on to our next question, Um, here we go. This 715 00:42:21,996 --> 00:42:25,956 Speaker 1: is from Jacob from Los Angeles. He asks for Americans abroad, 716 00:42:26,356 --> 00:42:28,676 Speaker 1: is it better to attempt speaking a few words of 717 00:42:28,676 --> 00:42:32,236 Speaker 1: the local language poorly, yes, or just sheepishly start your 718 00:42:32,236 --> 00:42:35,676 Speaker 1: conversations in English and you Nope, you should always try. 719 00:42:35,916 --> 00:42:38,116 Speaker 1: You should you should always try. Otherwise you look like 720 00:42:38,156 --> 00:42:40,876 Speaker 1: a dumb America. Okay, don't do that to us. And yeah, 721 00:42:40,916 --> 00:42:43,436 Speaker 1: there's enough of us out there already as dumb Americans. 722 00:42:43,716 --> 00:42:45,276 Speaker 1: Don't be in the Yeah. I think what I like 723 00:42:45,356 --> 00:42:47,516 Speaker 1: bout the question, too, is like should I try poorly? 724 00:42:47,596 --> 00:42:49,516 Speaker 1: That at least indicates that you read up on it 725 00:42:49,636 --> 00:42:52,396 Speaker 1: or you're trying, like that's the the effort is here 726 00:42:52,436 --> 00:42:54,636 Speaker 1: and they'll they'll appreciate that. You're like, oh, you came here, 727 00:42:54,716 --> 00:42:59,116 Speaker 1: you want to speak our language? How how nice? You sound? Abysmal? 728 00:42:59,236 --> 00:43:01,916 Speaker 1: But I'm with you. Um, all right, One last question. 729 00:43:01,956 --> 00:43:03,596 Speaker 1: I think you answered this when you were talking about 730 00:43:03,636 --> 00:43:05,796 Speaker 1: your travel habits, but I'll ask it. This is from 731 00:43:05,836 --> 00:43:08,916 Speaker 1: Grant from North Carolina. When I travel somewhere, I often 732 00:43:09,316 --> 00:43:11,996 Speaker 1: to the tourist spots or the top destinations of place 733 00:43:11,996 --> 00:43:14,196 Speaker 1: has to offer. I want to do more off the 734 00:43:14,196 --> 00:43:17,156 Speaker 1: beaten path exploring, but I don't know where to start. 735 00:43:17,196 --> 00:43:22,836 Speaker 1: Any tips. Neighborhoods think about the people who live there 736 00:43:22,956 --> 00:43:25,396 Speaker 1: and start walking more than anything. When I go to 737 00:43:25,436 --> 00:43:28,996 Speaker 1: any city, I will just start walking and walk to 738 00:43:29,036 --> 00:43:32,116 Speaker 1: where you feel safe and get a little lost. It's 739 00:43:32,116 --> 00:43:34,916 Speaker 1: okay these days, you've got you can get an uber, 740 00:43:34,996 --> 00:43:38,276 Speaker 1: you can call it of something. But people are actually 741 00:43:38,276 --> 00:43:39,916 Speaker 1: I think people out in the world when you when 742 00:43:39,956 --> 00:43:42,196 Speaker 1: you travel and know your foreigner. I feel like people 743 00:43:42,196 --> 00:43:44,916 Speaker 1: have always been friendly to me and like, if you're friendly, 744 00:43:44,956 --> 00:43:47,436 Speaker 1: if you're open just saying you need help. I've gone 745 00:43:47,476 --> 00:43:50,796 Speaker 1: to remember one with the Marrakesh and I felt like 746 00:43:50,836 --> 00:43:53,876 Speaker 1: my brain turned inside out because I didn't understand anything, 747 00:43:54,156 --> 00:43:56,996 Speaker 1: the roads, the way cars went, the way the streets 748 00:43:56,996 --> 00:43:59,116 Speaker 1: were crowded, you name it. But I feel like I 749 00:43:59,156 --> 00:44:02,076 Speaker 1: know that people. If I I got lost, like in 750 00:44:02,116 --> 00:44:04,436 Speaker 1: the Sioux I will just go to someone, just go 751 00:44:04,476 --> 00:44:06,596 Speaker 1: to someone who seemed warm and friendly and ask me. 752 00:44:07,156 --> 00:44:09,676 Speaker 1: I believe because I also believe that like what you 753 00:44:09,716 --> 00:44:11,476 Speaker 1: put out is also what you get back. I believe 754 00:44:11,516 --> 00:44:15,076 Speaker 1: that I'm protected and safe in the world, and I 755 00:44:15,116 --> 00:44:18,356 Speaker 1: think that that's exactly what resonates. Yeah, and so I 756 00:44:18,396 --> 00:44:21,556 Speaker 1: will take myself into a neighborhood that I don't know 757 00:44:22,236 --> 00:44:24,716 Speaker 1: and ask a local, where can you get a good 758 00:44:24,836 --> 00:44:28,196 Speaker 1: meal around here? And people feel pride, they want to 759 00:44:28,436 --> 00:44:30,916 Speaker 1: they will go go down there. Yeah, it's great. My 760 00:44:31,196 --> 00:44:34,116 Speaker 1: mother's family's creation. And they have a phrase, God protects 761 00:44:34,196 --> 00:44:36,836 Speaker 1: drunks and idiots, And I feel like I, when you're traveler, 762 00:44:36,836 --> 00:44:39,356 Speaker 1: you're a bit of an idiot, and and there are 763 00:44:39,356 --> 00:44:40,876 Speaker 1: you calling me a drunken an idiot? Is that what 764 00:44:40,916 --> 00:44:45,876 Speaker 1: you call? Yet? Is not? Yet? I was I was projecting. 765 00:44:46,036 --> 00:44:52,956 Speaker 1: I'm sorry. I thought this was my therapy imployment. I'm sorry, 766 00:44:52,996 --> 00:44:57,396 Speaker 1: it's it's my it's my interview with Colman um No. 767 00:44:57,436 --> 00:44:58,836 Speaker 1: But you know, when you're when you're traveling, you're a 768 00:44:58,836 --> 00:45:00,836 Speaker 1: bit of a ding bat. And I think that there 769 00:45:00,876 --> 00:45:02,916 Speaker 1: may be, you know, there could be an aura around 770 00:45:02,916 --> 00:45:06,316 Speaker 1: you that people will will often help you. All Right, Well, look, calmen, 771 00:45:06,396 --> 00:45:09,156 Speaker 1: thank you so much for your travel tips. Congratulate this 772 00:45:09,356 --> 00:45:11,796 Speaker 1: is all the great stuff you're cooking up, and you're 773 00:45:11,836 --> 00:45:14,196 Speaker 1: such a pleasure to chat with. Thank you for coming by. 774 00:45:14,356 --> 00:45:16,236 Speaker 1: This is fine. Thank you so much. I appreciate it. 775 00:45:25,516 --> 00:45:28,996 Speaker 1: Once again, that was Coleman Domingo. Everybody be on the 776 00:45:29,036 --> 00:45:31,556 Speaker 1: lookout because he has two new films coming out later 777 00:45:31,596 --> 00:45:36,716 Speaker 1: this year, Rustin and The Color Purple. And that concludes 778 00:45:36,716 --> 00:45:39,116 Speaker 1: our journey this episode of Not Lost Chat. Thank you 779 00:45:39,156 --> 00:45:42,396 Speaker 1: so much for joining us. If you have travel questions, 780 00:45:42,436 --> 00:45:44,836 Speaker 1: as always, you can email them to me at not 781 00:45:44,956 --> 00:45:47,596 Speaker 1: Lost at Pushkin dot fm and I'll try to get 782 00:45:47,636 --> 00:45:50,236 Speaker 1: them in front of one of our future guests, or 783 00:45:50,516 --> 00:45:52,596 Speaker 1: you can ping me at b f newt him on Twitter. 784 00:45:53,076 --> 00:45:56,876 Speaker 1: Pinging is that what that's called? Sounds better than dming. 785 00:45:58,076 --> 00:46:01,716 Speaker 1: Not Lost Chat was produced by Jordan Billy, who, true 786 00:46:01,716 --> 00:46:03,876 Speaker 1: to form, will be taking a little road trip soon 787 00:46:03,956 --> 00:46:06,156 Speaker 1: to Asheville, so if you're down there, please roll out 788 00:46:06,196 --> 00:46:08,716 Speaker 1: the welcome app for her. This show is written and 789 00:46:08,796 --> 00:46:12,636 Speaker 1: host by me Brendan Francis Nunham. We receive booking assistance 790 00:46:12,756 --> 00:46:16,476 Speaker 1: from the wonderful Laura Morgan. This episode was edited by 791 00:46:16,556 --> 00:46:20,756 Speaker 1: Julia Barton, who also contributed that fantastic postcard at the top. 792 00:46:21,556 --> 00:46:24,956 Speaker 1: Way to outshine your host, Julia, I've got some work 793 00:46:24,956 --> 00:46:28,596 Speaker 1: ahead of me for that next postcard. Our managing producer 794 00:46:28,756 --> 00:46:32,276 Speaker 1: is Jacob Smith, and our mix engineer and co producer 795 00:46:32,436 --> 00:46:36,156 Speaker 1: is the wonderful Sarah brugere Not Lost is a co 796 00:46:36,276 --> 00:46:40,396 Speaker 1: production of Pushkin Industries, Topic Studios and iHeartMedia, who was 797 00:46:40,476 --> 00:46:45,476 Speaker 1: developed at Topic Studios. Executive producers include Me, Brendan, Francis Nunham, 798 00:46:45,556 --> 00:46:50,796 Speaker 1: Christy Gressman, Maria Zuckerman, Lisa Langang and Latommallad. If you 799 00:46:50,836 --> 00:46:53,676 Speaker 1: did what you here, please tell a friend, go talk 800 00:46:53,716 --> 00:46:56,756 Speaker 1: to Apple Podcasts, spread the word. It's all really appreciated. 801 00:46:57,236 --> 00:46:59,316 Speaker 1: You can sign up for the Pushkin newsletter and find 802 00:46:59,316 --> 00:47:02,836 Speaker 1: out everything happening over here at pushkin dot fm slash newsletter. 803 00:47:03,236 --> 00:47:06,076 Speaker 1: And if you'd like to find some more Pushkin podcasts 804 00:47:06,116 --> 00:47:08,596 Speaker 1: great stuff happening now, great Stuff on its way, new 805 00:47:08,636 --> 00:47:11,796 Speaker 1: season of cover you can listen and find them on 806 00:47:11,876 --> 00:47:16,756 Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 807 00:47:17,276 --> 00:47:21,236 Speaker 1: That is it for this episode. Thanks everybody, bon voyage