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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, your guide to

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Speaker 1: the whitetail woods, presented by First Light, creating proven versatile

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Speaker 1: hunting apparel for the stand, saddle or blind. First Light

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Speaker 1: Go Farther, Stay Longer, and now your host, Mark Kenyon.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast. This week on

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Speaker 2: the show, I'm joined by Kip Adams, the Chief Conservation

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Speaker 2: Officer for the National Deer Association, and we are discussing

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Speaker 2: the state of white tails in America in twenty twenty six.

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Speaker 2: We're to cover many of the most pressing and concerning

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Speaker 2: issues facing deer, as well as deer harvest and population

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Speaker 2: trends and much more. All Right, welcome back to the

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Speaker 2: Wired to Hunt podcast, brought to you by First Light.

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Speaker 2: Today on the show, as I just mentioned, we are

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Speaker 2: chatting with Kip Adams from the National Deer Association about

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Speaker 2: all things white tails and the state of our favorite

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Speaker 2: big game animal all across the country. When we're walking

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Speaker 2: through a bunch of different things that were covered in

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Speaker 2: the twenty twenty six Deer Report that the National Deer

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Speaker 2: Association just put out. This is a report that covers

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Speaker 2: many different topics, many different issues, many different trends, and

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Speaker 2: data related to deer and deer hunting across the country. So,

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Speaker 2: as I mentioned at the top, we're going to talk

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Speaker 2: through some of the most important issues facing deer. Some

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Speaker 2: of that's policy issues, some of those are updates on

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Speaker 2: disease and hunter you know, participation numbers. We talk through

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Speaker 2: a lot of things related to the deer harvest trends

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Speaker 2: across the America, how the age structure is changing, how

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Speaker 2: bucks versus antler lists, deer harvest is changing. We talk

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Speaker 2: through some position statements that the National Deer Association has

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Speaker 2: recently released about technology with deer hunting, and much much

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Speaker 2: more above and beyond that. So I'm going to let

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Speaker 2: us get right to that interview because, as you can hear,

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Speaker 2: I'm a little bit under the weather right now. So

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Speaker 2: let's get to my chat with Kip Adams from a

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Speaker 2: little bit earlier when I was feeling a lot better.

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Speaker 2: And this is a great conversation with Kip that I

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Speaker 2: know you're all going to enjoy. All right, joining me

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Speaker 2: once again is Kip Adams.

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Speaker 3: Welcome back, Kip, Hey, good to see you, Mark, Thanks

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Speaker 3: for having.

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Speaker 2: Me you too. I always enjoy our check ins, And

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Speaker 2: I was thinking to myself this morning that we've done

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Speaker 2: this almost every single year for at least a decade,

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Speaker 2: if not more than that. And then I remember that

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Speaker 2: last year we didn't do it because I pulled in

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Speaker 2: Nick and Matt instead. So glad to get you back

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Speaker 2: on here for this one, for our annual check in

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Speaker 2: all things kind of state of the white Tail and

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Speaker 2: taking a look at your most recent dear report that

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Speaker 2: you guys put together every year, which I always enjoy,

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Speaker 2: so I want to jump right into it. There's so

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Speaker 2: much in here, There's always a lot. I can't imagine

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Speaker 2: how much time it takes you and Matt whoever else

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Speaker 2: on the team helps you compile all of this. But

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Speaker 2: I'm curious if you had to pick the number one

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Speaker 2: headline from the twenty twenty six Deer Report, the thing

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Speaker 2: that stands out above everything else as most important in

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Speaker 2: your eyes? What is that?

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Speaker 3: Well, I think the thing is certainly from a hunter's

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Speaker 3: end anyway, what they would look at as being most

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Speaker 3: important is is literally the age structure of the buck harvest.

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Speaker 3: It is better than it has ever been in any

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Speaker 3: of our lifetimes. It is more natural for deer herds

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Speaker 3: than it's ever been. The fact that today, you know,

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Speaker 3: for all of the you know, the antler bucks that

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Speaker 3: we shoot for all of those that are only one

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Speaker 3: and a half, we shoot two that are at least

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Speaker 3: three and a half. So it's crazy how far we

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Speaker 3: have come. It's such a good natural aige structure. It's

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Speaker 3: so healthy for deer, and it is providing incredible opportunities

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Speaker 3: for hunters, And it literally is the best age structure

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Speaker 3: we've had in at least the last one hundred years.

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Speaker 2: So I think your diehard deer hunters understand what that

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Speaker 2: means and why that's important. But I gather I would

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Speaker 2: think maybe that there's probably some newer folks out there

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Speaker 2: who hear that and they don't quite understand why that

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Speaker 2: matters beyond maybe just Okay, I see more old bucks

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Speaker 2: and that sounds cool, But why is that actually important?

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Speaker 2: Can you give us the cliff notes real quick for

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Speaker 2: those people on why that is actually a meaningful change

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Speaker 2: not just for deer hunters, but also the population of

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Speaker 2: deer in the wider landscape too. Maybe.

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Speaker 3: Sure, deer are far more social than most people realize.

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Speaker 3: They evolved under a very complex social order that works

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Speaker 3: best when you have all age classes representative and that's

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Speaker 3: all ages of bucks and ohs, and historically, because of

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Speaker 3: our over harvest of bucks, we skewed that to a

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Speaker 3: very young age structure. So deer still you know, they lived,

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Speaker 3: and you know they bred and they provided follows, but

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Speaker 3: they wasn't allowed to really be deer. So that deer

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Speaker 3: heard works best when it has a full compliment of

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Speaker 3: age classes, and that's what we have today. It's important

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Speaker 3: from a hunter's end because yeah, we'd like to see

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Speaker 3: and you don't have the chance to hunt older bucks.

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Speaker 3: But even people who don't hunt should like that because

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Speaker 3: that means as managers we are doing a good job.

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Speaker 3: If you look at unhunted deer population today, they have

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Speaker 3: full complement of ages. If you look historically at age structures,

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Speaker 3: they had a full compliment. Today's deer managers have now

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Speaker 3: returned existing deer hurts to that. So it's a real

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Speaker 3: success story from a deer management end, whether you hunt

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Speaker 3: deer or not.

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Speaker 2: So this is kind of an absurd question that I

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Speaker 2: never would have thought we'd be asking, but I do

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Speaker 2: remember a handful of years ago in this chat, you

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Speaker 2: discussed how we were expecting that this decline of you know,

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Speaker 2: yearlings being harvested, was going to kind of plateau, was

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Speaker 2: going to settle in somewhere at this mark and kind

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Speaker 2: of stay right around there at some kind of natural stasis.

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Speaker 2: And it's largely done that for the last number of years,

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Speaker 2: and now we've actually seen it drop a decent little

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Speaker 2: bit again to a new record. So this begs the

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Speaker 2: question is there I guess let me take it by

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Speaker 2: it begs the question is there ever a point where

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Speaker 2: it would become too much, that it has declined too much,

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Speaker 2: that we have gotten this so that there's so few

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Speaker 2: yearlings being harvested and so much of a focus on

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Speaker 2: mature bucks that in some way it was negative. Is

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Speaker 2: that a possibility or could could that? Is there no

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Speaker 2: negative to be reached?

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Speaker 3: Well, I think that you know what we'd have to

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Speaker 3: watch for is if only if the total buck harvest

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Speaker 3: also was coming down, if we were doing everything we

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Speaker 3: could to protect that yearling buck age class to the

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Speaker 3: detriment of harvesting enough bucks anyway, then there would be

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Speaker 3: a threat of what you were saying. But we are

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Speaker 3: having record high buck harvest. So what it is is

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Speaker 3: hunters are passing those one and a half year old

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Speaker 3: bucks and killing a larger number of those once you know,

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Speaker 3: there are three four five years old. So as long

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Speaker 3: as we maintain harvest you know where or at least

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Speaker 3: harvest bucks the way we do now, there's no threat

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Speaker 3: of any bad issue relative to protecting some yearlings. Now.

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Speaker 3: The only potential issue down the road is from a

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Speaker 3: disease end. You know, if any deer are being saved,

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Speaker 3: you know that that may be spreading disease to others,

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Speaker 3: you know, And that's a different conversation than just this.

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Speaker 3: So there is the potential from that end, But for

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Speaker 3: a large part with what you're asking in today's modern

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Speaker 3: deer world and the way we hunt now, we're not

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Speaker 3: negatively impact anything by saving those yearlings because we're harvesting

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Speaker 3: an even greater number of them once they get older.

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Speaker 2: So one thing when I look at the charts and

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Speaker 2: the data for a lot of the states and how

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Speaker 2: they report their age structure, there's some states that it's

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Speaker 2: really really, really dramatic, and I wonder if that is

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Speaker 2: skewing the numbers for some states where we're not seeing

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Speaker 2: that change as much. Do any do you see any

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Speaker 2: discrepancies between like those very aggressive, you know, mature buck

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Speaker 2: states versus some of these other states. They have a

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Speaker 2: lot of hunters and a lot of participation, but they

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Speaker 2: are not seeing that. Does that a concern you at all?

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Speaker 2: Be is that something you're that you're seeing or do

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Speaker 2: not see that as much as I'm thinking, maybe there is.

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Speaker 3: No You're right and there are. There are some states

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Speaker 3: that have vastly different age structures. Part of that are

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Speaker 3: actually more of that is a reflection of how they

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Speaker 3: collect that data. And so states collect this age data differently.

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Speaker 3: Some do it at you know, biological checkstations, Some do

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Speaker 3: it where they have one hundred cent teeth in, some

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Speaker 3: do it at deer processors or taxims. So there's lots

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Speaker 3: of different ways that agencies can estimate the age structure,

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Speaker 3: you know, of the harvest. And a lot of hunters

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Speaker 3: will say, well, how do they know they didn't age

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Speaker 3: my dear? Well, biologis don't need to age every dear,

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Speaker 3: They just need to get their hand on a sample

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Speaker 3: of that harvest. So the way some states do that

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Speaker 3: is they only collect it from say, DMAT clubs, or

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Speaker 3: they may collect it from everybody. The ones that are

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Speaker 3: only collecting it from, particularly Deer Management Assistance Program or

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Speaker 3: DMAT clubs. Those clubs have a little more invested in

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Speaker 3: getting bucks into older age classes anyway, so those states

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Speaker 3: tend to see even advanced age structure over what's average.

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Speaker 3: So what I say is, even though that's not an

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Speaker 3: apples to apples comparison that specific state to your state

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Speaker 3: of Michigan or that state to my state of Pennsylvania,

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Speaker 3: we track this long term and have been doing this

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Speaker 3: for twenty years, so states seem to collect that data

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Speaker 3: the same way each year. So even every state is

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Speaker 3: in an apples apples across time, it is very comparable

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Speaker 3: because they're still collecting it the same way. So that's

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Speaker 3: why I feel very comfortable saying, yes, this is the actual,

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Speaker 3: you know, current state of where we are age structure wise.

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Speaker 3: I can't say that Mississippi does a better job than

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Speaker 3: Michigan or or other states, but long term, when you're

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Speaker 3: looking at everything, where it's very clear we have the

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Speaker 3: best age structure on the buck side that we ever have.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the trend line, you know, that's that's probably the

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Speaker 2: biggest thing, right watching.

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Speaker 3: That, Yeah, that is exactly.

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Speaker 2: So what about on the antler list side, the last

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Speaker 2: I don't know, three four four or five years. As

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Speaker 2: we've discussed this, the analyst side of things has continued

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Speaker 2: to rise as a possible area of concern. Where does

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Speaker 2: that stand this year?

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Speaker 3: Fortunately, this past the data that's in this report, So

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Speaker 3: the twenty six report actually shares data from the twenty

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Speaker 3: four to twenty five deer season, the reason being the

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Speaker 3: report is published in January, so the twenty five to

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Speaker 3: twenty six season is still going, so it's the harvest

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Speaker 3: data from the most recent season that's in the books. Fortunately,

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Speaker 3: the analysts harvest increased during that which is very good,

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Speaker 3: and it got back above the antler buck harvest for

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Speaker 3: the first time in a few years. And this is

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Speaker 3: so important because long term, some states can shoot more

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Speaker 3: bucks than dose each year and be okay, that's not

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Speaker 3: the norm for most of white tail country. You have

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Speaker 3: to harvest more analysts deer than handler bucks to keep

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Speaker 3: a healthy deer herd. Our buck harvest are at historically

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Speaker 3: high levels. We have only shot more than three million

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Speaker 3: antler bucks three times since the turn of the century,

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Speaker 3: So twenty four twenty five hundred season, it's only had

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Speaker 3: three times and they've all happened within the last five years.

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Speaker 3: So what it is Mark that is an index to

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Speaker 3: deer population size. So we are at historically high population

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Speaker 3: levels in many states right now, and that comes from

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Speaker 3: a function of shooting too many bucks and not enough

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Speaker 3: analysts deer. You know, because we can shoot all the bucks,

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Speaker 3: move on, that's not controlling population growth. That's why so

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Speaker 3: many states have been at begging hunters please shoot more

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Speaker 3: analysts deer because deer herds are just getting higher and

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Speaker 3: higher and higher above where they should be. So the

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Speaker 3: fact is this last season we actually the analyst harvest

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Speaker 3: was higher than the buck harvest, very good, and it

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Speaker 3: was higher than it's five year average, very good. So

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Speaker 3: hunters answered the call, and that's that's exactly what we

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Speaker 3: need because we were going the wrong way with the

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Speaker 3: declining analysts harvest to cross many states.

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Speaker 2: I'm sure you have kind of off the record kind

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Speaker 2: of personal conversations with a lot of folks across these

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Speaker 2: different states and managing agencies and everything like that. Do

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Speaker 2: you have a sense, just like a temperature check on

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Speaker 2: how folks are feeling about this. I mean, this latest

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Speaker 2: data is encouraging, but are the folks on the ground

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Speaker 2: managing these deer populations are they feeling like, oh, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: we're good. Trends are looking great and we're happy with

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Speaker 2: the where things are going out. Or do you still

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Speaker 2: sense that there's some of that you know, five alarm

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Speaker 2: fire going on that some of these states have expressed

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Speaker 2: in recent years. Is that continuing?

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Speaker 3: It is? And there's a lot of state deer managers

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Speaker 3: that were extremely happy to see the data. You know,

243
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Speaker 3: we're okay analyst harvest or above buck harvest again, but

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Speaker 3: they're certainly not confident that that is going to continue

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Speaker 3: long term without repeated you know work on their part,

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Speaker 3: and you know, and I get it. We can't just

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Speaker 3: ask hunters one time shoot more. Does you know it's

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Speaker 3: a thing that they need to feel. Hey, this isn't

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Speaker 3: my best interest if I do shoot more, because you're

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Speaker 3: you know, as hunter's more. We don't want to see

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Speaker 3: fewer deer. How many times have you gone hunting? Are

252
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Speaker 3: taking your kids hunting? And say, man, I hope we

253
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Speaker 3: see fewer deer than we did yesterday. That doesn't happen.

254
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Speaker 3: We don't say that, you know, and I get it

255
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Speaker 3: as well, you know, like I want to see deer too,

256
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Speaker 3: and I like to see a lot of deer, so

257
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Speaker 3: I understand it. So it's important for people like you

258
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Speaker 3: and US and state deer managers to let folks know, Hey,

259
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Speaker 3: I know you want to, but hey, here's why we

260
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Speaker 3: actually need to shoot more does. We're still going to

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Speaker 3: maintain a very healthy herd. But here's why this is

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Speaker 3: in the deer hurd's best interest, in your future hunting's

263
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Speaker 3: best interests. You know, if we actually shoot more does,

264
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Speaker 3: because it seems like the most larger thing. If we

265
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Speaker 3: shoot more does, there's fewer deer. I'm negatively impacting by

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Speaker 3: future hunting. And there are absolutely places where that's true,

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Speaker 3: where deer herds are very low, but most of Waytail

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Speaker 3: Country that that's not the case. So and I'm not

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Speaker 3: saying we need to shoot more does everywhere, but across

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Speaker 3: much of white Tail country that is the case today.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so give me the sixty second elevator, you know,

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Speaker 2: pitch on why killing more antlerless deer is probably a

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Speaker 2: good thing. For someone who's listening, who who hasn't heard

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Speaker 2: this yet and is thinking of themselves the exact same

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Speaker 2: thing that you just set a second ago, that doesn't

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Speaker 2: make sense, Convince them why this is actually the case.

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Speaker 3: Deer herds across much of the country are above what

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Speaker 3: the habitats can support with regard to providing maximum nutrition

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Speaker 3: for deer. If we balance deer herds with habitat, that's

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Speaker 3: when deer herds are healthiest. The habitat is the healthiest.

281
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Speaker 3: The habitat for all those other wildlife species is the healthiest.

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Speaker 3: And it's also very good hunting for us. So we

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Speaker 3: need to shoot enough anlist deer to keep deer herds there.

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Speaker 3: And the reality today is only about forty percent of

285
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Speaker 3: all the hunters that go afield shoot a single deer

286
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Speaker 3: in a year. Sixty percent of all hunters will not

287
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Speaker 3: shoot a single deer this year, even though we hear

288
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Speaker 3: you know, hey, multiple bag limits and all these opportunities,

289
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Speaker 3: most hunters don't shoot a single deer. That's why we

290
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Speaker 3: impress upon ours. Hey, here's the need. We need you

291
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Speaker 3: to shoot, you know, an antler, this deer this year.

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Speaker 3: Keep deer herds healthy and habitats healthy.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. In the report, it broke down the average age

294
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Speaker 2: for antless harvest across the country, and it was pretty

295
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Speaker 2: It was a lower number, you know, for fawns. The

296
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Speaker 2: lower is like nineteen percent for fawns, nineteen percent for

297
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Speaker 2: year and a half holes nineteen twenty something like that

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Speaker 2: for two and a half and then I believe it's

299
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Speaker 2: forty two percent of the antlerless harvest was three and

300
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Speaker 2: a half plus. And I'm curious if that is the ski,

301
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Speaker 2: if that's the distribution that we ideally want, is that

302
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Speaker 2: a good distribution? Is that too much? Too little? What

303
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Speaker 2: are your thoughts on how that actually kind of maps

304
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Speaker 2: out currently?

305
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Speaker 3: Is that is a really old age structure for dose,

306
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Speaker 3: and what that means is in many places we are

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Speaker 3: not applying very heavy harvest pressure to those deer herds,

308
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Speaker 3: because if we were applying more harvest pressure, it would

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Speaker 3: be a more balanced age structure from fawnds up through

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Speaker 3: mature deer. So now we say it like in the

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Speaker 3: buck side forty three percent we're three and older, but

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Speaker 3: that's have antler bucks. There's no fawns in that. So

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Speaker 3: you say, well, if it's forty three percent mature bucks

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Speaker 3: and forty two percent mature dose, which you need to

315
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Speaker 3: remember is the antalyst side includes fonds, that nineteen percent fawns.

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Speaker 3: So if you just looked at adult dose, those that

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Speaker 3: are one have and older, the complement that's three and

318
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Speaker 3: a half plus would be way over forty two percent.

319
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Speaker 3: So that means that's a very advanced age structure, much

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Speaker 3: much older than the average buck that's on the landscape.

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Speaker 3: So is that good? From a dough in what we

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Speaker 3: have shows that, Yeah, we have deer in all age classes,

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Speaker 3: but we just have a lot of them way at

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Speaker 3: the you know, the right end of that graph. If

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Speaker 3: we harvested more and brought the average age structure a

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Speaker 3: little younger, that would be more representative of a natural

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Speaker 3: heard and that would be much healthier for those deer.

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Speaker 3: And let us know, as a manager standpoint, Hey, we're

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Speaker 3: doing a better job. So, yes, we have those in

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Speaker 3: all age classes, but they're skewed to the old end.

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Speaker 3: We need to reduce that age class a little bit

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Speaker 3: for dose to make them even healthier.

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Speaker 2: And is the is the suggested action that we actually

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Speaker 2: start targeting younger deer on purpose younger dos on purpose,

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Speaker 2: or is it suggested to action simply just just shoot

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Speaker 2: more does in general? I don't care what age class

337
00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:32,200
Speaker 2: they are. If you have a shot, take the shot.

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Speaker 2: Assuming you're in one of these places that has a

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Speaker 2: very abundant population.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, this is an easy one. The answer is just

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Speaker 3: shoot more does, and that would correct the age structure

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Speaker 3: by itself, because dose don't necessarily get larger, you know,

343
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Speaker 3: as they get older. With bucks in general, we can

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Speaker 3: use body characteristics testimony at age. We can't with dose.

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Speaker 3: I've seen two year old dos win big dough contests.

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Speaker 3: I've seen five year old dos that we're tiny in structing.

347
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Speaker 3: So it's kind of like humans are taller, some are shorter,

348
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Speaker 3: some get big, some don't. So with those just I

349
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Speaker 3: tell people to shoot the biggest dough in the group

350
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Speaker 3: because you're guaranteed then that it's at least most likely

351
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Speaker 3: an adult, and then you get the most meat for

352
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Speaker 3: the freezer. That deer might be two and a half,

353
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Speaker 3: three and a half, four and a half, or five

354
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Speaker 3: and a half years old. So yeah, no, not many

355
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Speaker 3: things are easy in life. This is one that gets

356
00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:23,840
Speaker 3: very easy. Don't try to pick an old young or

357
00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:27,040
Speaker 3: just shoot the biggest deer in the group and shoot

358
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Speaker 3: more does and that'll all take care of itself.

359
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Speaker 2: There you go. So as far as the harvest reports

360
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Speaker 2: that you guys have collected from all across the state,

361
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Speaker 2: is there any other key finding or trend or data

362
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Speaker 2: point that you found really surprising or particularly either exciting

363
00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:49,320
Speaker 2: or concerning. Does any last thing really stand out to

364
00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:49,960
Speaker 2: you want to mention?

365
00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:52,919
Speaker 3: I think one thing and it ties right into what

366
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Speaker 3: we just said. We found out that the average deer

367
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Speaker 3: hunter hunts twelve days a year. And I know my

368
00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:04,040
Speaker 3: wife laughs at that, which he sees that to think

369
00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:07,520
Speaker 3: only twelve days, you know. So yeah, so the average

370
00:19:07,520 --> 00:19:11,399
Speaker 3: deer hunter last year hunted twelve days for deer. I mean,

371
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Speaker 3: they may hunt for turkeys and ducks on a for deer,

372
00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:19,280
Speaker 3: but the average successful deer hunter last year required fifteen

373
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Speaker 3: days to harvest a deer. So what that showing is, okay,

374
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Speaker 3: the average person of twelve This isn't from a lack

375
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Speaker 3: of opportunity in most places. It's not from a lack

376
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Speaker 3: of access for most hunters, or a lack of deer,

377
00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:34,359
Speaker 3: or even a lack of days you know when the

378
00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:39,000
Speaker 3: season's back. It's selectivity. They are specifically choosing, like I'll

379
00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:41,480
Speaker 3: wait till later to shoot that dough or now I'm

380
00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:43,560
Speaker 3: going to wait for a bigger bug. So I thought

381
00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:46,000
Speaker 3: that was pretty market. It didn't surprise me that the

382
00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:49,439
Speaker 3: average hunter hundred twelve days. It did surprise me that

383
00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:52,080
Speaker 3: the average day number of days you know to shoot

384
00:19:52,119 --> 00:19:54,479
Speaker 3: a dear was fifteen. But I think that that plays

385
00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:57,600
Speaker 3: in perfectly with what we're talking about, you know, the

386
00:19:57,680 --> 00:20:00,560
Speaker 3: need to harvest more analyst deer. You know, just people

387
00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:04,159
Speaker 3: just aren't pulling the trigger or releasing that arrow, you know,

388
00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:06,880
Speaker 3: with a lot of the opportunities that they have earlier

389
00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:07,520
Speaker 3: in the sixties.

390
00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:22,240
Speaker 2: So another thing that I would assume is possibly impacting

391
00:20:23,080 --> 00:20:25,800
Speaker 2: you know, harvest rates and actual numbers of deer getting

392
00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:28,760
Speaker 2: killed is the actual number of hunters heading a field.

393
00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:31,600
Speaker 2: And for you know, a decade or two now, we've

394
00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:35,520
Speaker 2: been hearing about the threat of declining hunter numbers, the

395
00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:39,160
Speaker 2: baby boomers aging out, all of that. You guys took

396
00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:42,160
Speaker 2: a look at that at a deer hunting specific level

397
00:20:42,359 --> 00:20:45,720
Speaker 2: this year. Did anything coming out of that work surprise you?

398
00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:48,840
Speaker 2: Was there anything different than what the historical trends that

399
00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:51,359
Speaker 2: we've seen from the US Fish and Wildlife surveys have

400
00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:51,879
Speaker 2: told us.

401
00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:56,760
Speaker 3: It was a little concern in that total of your

402
00:20:56,840 --> 00:20:59,719
Speaker 3: hunter numbers have dropped. Again, we asked this question two

403
00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:01,520
Speaker 3: with three years ago on one of our Dear reports,

404
00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:04,119
Speaker 3: because we keep a close eye on this. Once we

405
00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:07,720
Speaker 3: have numbers of total deer armors. But then also we've

406
00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:11,560
Speaker 3: put it on deer hunters per square mile because that

407
00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:15,080
Speaker 3: statistic mark, more than anything else, dictates how many deer

408
00:21:15,119 --> 00:21:18,160
Speaker 3: die in any state, not when opening day is, whether

409
00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:19,800
Speaker 3: it's in the rut or not, or how long your

410
00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:23,040
Speaker 3: archer season is. It's the number of hunters on the

411
00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:25,840
Speaker 3: ground that has more to do with total number of

412
00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:28,280
Speaker 3: deer that die than any other. So we watched this

413
00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:31,280
Speaker 3: really closely. So it's a little concerning that that number

414
00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:34,560
Speaker 3: has come down again over the last few years. So

415
00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:38,480
Speaker 3: I certainly don't like that. So not only from a

416
00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:42,679
Speaker 3: total hunter number standpoint, because hunters are ambassadors, you know,

417
00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:45,080
Speaker 3: for hunting. They pay the bills for hunting, so fewer

418
00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:48,119
Speaker 3: hunters is not good. But then also then that negatively

419
00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:52,840
Speaker 3: impacts other conservation funding, and you know, it negatively impacts

420
00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:55,119
Speaker 3: the number of deer they get shot, the number of

421
00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:57,879
Speaker 3: pounds of venison that get donated to food banks. You

422
00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:00,399
Speaker 3: know that all is tied in together. So it is

423
00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:03,119
Speaker 3: a little concern in that, you know, we are losing

424
00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:06,520
Speaker 3: hunter numbers because for a long time, while for the

425
00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:11,240
Speaker 3: past decade to two this talk centers around loss of hunters,

426
00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:14,240
Speaker 3: but the number of hunters has been very stable. The

427
00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:17,240
Speaker 3: problem is we're getting older and we're about to the

428
00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:20,000
Speaker 3: tipping point where the baby boomers are falling off. So

429
00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:22,480
Speaker 3: here in the next decade, we're going to really have

430
00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:25,400
Speaker 3: a drop in hunter numbers. So we've been preparing for

431
00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:29,520
Speaker 3: this by trying to identify what the problem is and

432
00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:31,840
Speaker 3: how to get more people in the fold. Even though

433
00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:34,960
Speaker 3: hunter numbers were pretty stable, well now we're starting to

434
00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:37,879
Speaker 3: see the first steps of that decline, and we know,

435
00:22:38,359 --> 00:22:41,040
Speaker 3: you know, it's not just to gradual, it's we're about

436
00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:43,360
Speaker 3: to a cliff, you know, and we're taking those first

437
00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:46,120
Speaker 3: few steps. We're getting really really close to the edge.

438
00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:47,960
Speaker 3: So that's pretty concerning to me.

439
00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:51,919
Speaker 2: See, you know, when I was looking at that, a

440
00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:57,200
Speaker 2: specific subsection of the data was particularly surprising me, which

441
00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:00,000
Speaker 2: was they they mentioned they gave you a total number

442
00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:02,800
Speaker 2: of hunters, but then they told you the percentage of

443
00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:06,159
Speaker 2: those that identify as deer hunters. And it wasn't just

444
00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:09,240
Speaker 2: that total numbers were declining, it was actually that the

445
00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:13,680
Speaker 2: percentage of those hunters that deer hunt was declining too.

446
00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:16,399
Speaker 2: So what that tells me is why is deer hunting

447
00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:21,280
Speaker 2: participation declining faster or declining at a greater rate than

448
00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:24,240
Speaker 2: just hunting in general. What's that about? I started wondering,

449
00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:27,639
Speaker 2: have you guys given that any thought? Why is it

450
00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:32,960
Speaker 2: that in twenty twenty one, for example, seventy eight percent

451
00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:36,800
Speaker 2: of reported hunters pursued deer, but now as of twenty

452
00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:40,520
Speaker 2: four percent, that's down to only sixty five percent of

453
00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:43,560
Speaker 2: hunters identify as hunting deer. Why is it that deer

454
00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:50,160
Speaker 2: hunting participation specifically is declining within the broader hunting community.

455
00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:52,880
Speaker 3: I don't know the exact answer to that. I do

456
00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:55,960
Speaker 3: have assumptions, though, I do think that that is related

457
00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:59,960
Speaker 3: to the average age of hunters and more older hunters

458
00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:04,520
Speaker 3: that now are you know, there's still small game hunting something.

459
00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:07,280
Speaker 3: Maybe they're score hunting, or they're walking behind some beagles

460
00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:10,040
Speaker 3: or whatever. Get out of times, you know, when it's

461
00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:12,560
Speaker 3: a lot easier to be out, there's less you know, cold,

462
00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:15,720
Speaker 3: there's no snow. I do think that that is having

463
00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:18,240
Speaker 3: an impact on that mark. We don't have data to

464
00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:21,280
Speaker 3: just show that, but I'm pretty confident that it is

465
00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:24,520
Speaker 3: firmly related just to the average age of hunters today

466
00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:27,040
Speaker 3: and as it gets older, you know, that plays directly

467
00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:30,240
Speaker 3: into it and also there is probably a decade ago.

468
00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:32,320
Speaker 3: I used to have a slide that I used when

469
00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:34,600
Speaker 3: I gave talks to kind of set up to talk

470
00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:37,840
Speaker 3: of the importance of deer, and at that time showed

471
00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:39,960
Speaker 3: the map of the US or the eastern two thirds

472
00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:43,560
Speaker 3: of the US Rocky Mountains east those thirty seven states,

473
00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:46,840
Speaker 3: deer were the number one species hunted and thirty six

474
00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:49,719
Speaker 3: of the thirty seven, the only one that had anything

475
00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:53,360
Speaker 3: else hunting more than deer was South Dakota. And so

476
00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:57,240
Speaker 3: just because you know, the insanely good bird populations area

477
00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:00,560
Speaker 3: Uplandberg and it was like a long I wasn't even

478
00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:03,960
Speaker 3: close with all those other states. But we're starting to

479
00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:06,159
Speaker 3: see erosion in that today too. And that's exactly what

480
00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:08,760
Speaker 3: you were just alluding to, where there's not as many people.

481
00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:12,000
Speaker 3: So you know, if I make another map like that,

482
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:14,840
Speaker 3: you know here in a few years, it's probably going

483
00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:17,119
Speaker 3: to be more than just South Dakota where where hunters

484
00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:19,080
Speaker 3: are hunting something besides here, or at least there's the

485
00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:21,760
Speaker 3: opportunity for that, you know, And that was wouldn't have

486
00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:24,440
Speaker 3: even been considered a decade ago. It's like, you know, deer,

487
00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:27,639
Speaker 3: we're so far and away the most important thing above

488
00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:33,119
Speaker 3: everything else outside of Spencer's home state, I guess. But anyway,

489
00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:35,280
Speaker 3: that is starting to look a little different today, and

490
00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:37,320
Speaker 3: that's and that's very concerned.

491
00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:40,480
Speaker 2: Well, And I also wonder if it might have something

492
00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:48,000
Speaker 2: to do with the disproportionately challenging aspect today of deer

493
00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:52,879
Speaker 2: hunting access in particular. Right, Like, you can still go

494
00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:55,600
Speaker 2: out on any piece of public land and probably shoot squirrels,

495
00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:58,680
Speaker 2: but there's a lot of folks that might say trying

496
00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:00,680
Speaker 2: to kill a deer on public land these is getting

497
00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:03,040
Speaker 2: to be a tougher experience, or maybe it's you know,

498
00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:05,680
Speaker 2: with everybody used to have free permission everywhere to deer

499
00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:07,760
Speaker 2: hunt on private land, on their neighbors and everyone. But

500
00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:10,480
Speaker 2: nowadays more and more land is being bought for one

501
00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:12,639
Speaker 2: or two hunters, more and more land is being leased,

502
00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:16,560
Speaker 2: and so deer hunting specifically seems like the access challenge

503
00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:19,240
Speaker 2: is unique there a little bit. I'm curious that that

504
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:22,199
Speaker 2: could be having some of this impact as well. Some

505
00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:23,800
Speaker 2: people were like, Yeah, I used to deer hunt when

506
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:25,720
Speaker 2: it was easy to get places to do it. Now

507
00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:27,320
Speaker 2: if I want a deer hunt, it's going to cost

508
00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:29,000
Speaker 2: me a bunch of money. Or I've got to become

509
00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:31,520
Speaker 2: a ninja on public land and I don't love it

510
00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:36,679
Speaker 2: that much. That's that's purely anecdotal, you know, spitball in there.

511
00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:38,080
Speaker 2: But I wonder if there's something there too.

512
00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:41,560
Speaker 3: There absolutely could be, And you're right, it's it's more

513
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:45,760
Speaker 3: difficult to get deer hunting access than anything else across

514
00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:48,400
Speaker 3: most of the country. You know, the folks in Arkansas.

515
00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:51,640
Speaker 3: That's probably not true with regard to ducks in some places,

516
00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:53,639
Speaker 3: but for the most part, you're right. And I know

517
00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:56,439
Speaker 3: people even wry Am they know deer hunting is very, very,

518
00:26:56,760 --> 00:26:59,719
Speaker 3: you know, serious, and there's Pennsylvania's more deer hunters per

519
00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:03,360
Speaker 3: square with anybody, and growing up here you could get

520
00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:06,600
Speaker 3: permission anywhere. That's certainly not the case anymore. You have

521
00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:09,560
Speaker 3: a hard time, you know, because every acre of land

522
00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:13,439
Speaker 3: is hunted for deer. But when season's over, you can

523
00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:16,320
Speaker 3: you can kyo hunt on just about any place here

524
00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:19,240
Speaker 3: you are. You can late season small game hunt on

525
00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:21,840
Speaker 3: a lot of places. You're right. You can still get

526
00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:24,480
Speaker 3: access to do a lot of other things after deer

527
00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:28,640
Speaker 3: season's over. But yeah, but it's hard to get permission

528
00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:30,640
Speaker 3: to deer hunt a lot of places so you probably

529
00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:31,879
Speaker 3: you probably correct with that.

530
00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:36,680
Speaker 2: So kind of along somewhat similar lines. If we're looking

531
00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:44,560
Speaker 2: at popular boogeymen within the hunting world, access is one

532
00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:47,360
Speaker 2: of them, of course, but another one is the impact

533
00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:53,520
Speaker 2: that crossbows might have on increasing archery participation, possible impacts

534
00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:55,600
Speaker 2: on deer populations. There's a lot of I mean, for

535
00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:57,360
Speaker 2: years and years and years people have liked to talk

536
00:27:57,359 --> 00:28:00,399
Speaker 2: about this. They still like to talk about this, and

537
00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:02,119
Speaker 2: so we're still going to address it every once in

538
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:04,960
Speaker 2: a while. You guys do a breakdown by weapon, you

539
00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:08,600
Speaker 2: explore this a little bit, and I'm just curious when

540
00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:14,679
Speaker 2: it comes to crossbow participation and possible impacts, have you

541
00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:17,240
Speaker 2: ever seen have we ever seen any kind of notable

542
00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:22,520
Speaker 2: change in harvest structure or harvest percentage during archery versus

543
00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:24,800
Speaker 2: gun season or anything like that when a state has

544
00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:26,560
Speaker 2: brought crossboards on board.

545
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:30,240
Speaker 3: Yeah. And so I'll preface this by saying, I am

546
00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:32,919
Speaker 3: a die hard bowhunter. I spend more time hunting bow

547
00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:35,400
Speaker 3: bow in my hand than anything else. Once both season

548
00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:37,159
Speaker 3: is over, I'm glad to pick up my rifle and

549
00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:42,160
Speaker 3: keep going. But bow hunting is my thing. My kids

550
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:44,680
Speaker 3: both started with a crossbow and I am totally fine

551
00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:47,440
Speaker 3: sharing the woods with people using a crossbow. I think

552
00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:50,280
Speaker 3: it's a great tool to get new hunters in. I

553
00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:53,000
Speaker 3: think it's a great tool to have senior hunters, you know,

554
00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:57,080
Speaker 3: be able to still hunt. So I'm not against crossbows. However,

555
00:28:57,160 --> 00:28:59,640
Speaker 3: I know a lot of people, friends and colleagues are.

556
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:02,560
Speaker 3: While you know, I've had this discussion lots of times.

557
00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:06,280
Speaker 3: We have monetists for a long time, and that's you know,

558
00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:11,160
Speaker 3: the percentage of the deer take that's harvested by bows, rifles, muszlaws,

559
00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:16,040
Speaker 3: et cetera. Fifteen years ago, the percentage total deer harvest

560
00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:20,680
Speaker 3: that was taken by bows was fifteen percent. Today that's

561
00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:24,280
Speaker 3: about twenty five percent, So that's a jump. However, that

562
00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:28,240
Speaker 3: percentage taken by bows or crossbowst has stayed very similar

563
00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:30,720
Speaker 3: for the past five to ten years. You know, basically

564
00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:33,240
Speaker 3: that fifteen years ago, I say that why there was jumpers.

565
00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:35,680
Speaker 3: That's when a bunch of states were starting to legalize

566
00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:39,760
Speaker 3: crossbows for all hunters during archery season. So because there

567
00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:42,560
Speaker 3: was more opportunity, you saw a lot hot more deer

568
00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:46,080
Speaker 3: taken with a boat. However, that number has been very

569
00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:49,000
Speaker 3: constant now for a while at about twenty five percent,

570
00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:51,800
Speaker 3: so firearms are still taken, you know, the vast majority

571
00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:54,360
Speaker 3: of about two thirds of the annual deer harvest. And

572
00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:58,440
Speaker 3: what states see is some states can break their harvest

573
00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:01,560
Speaker 3: down vertical bow and cross boat. Some states can't. They

574
00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:03,920
Speaker 3: just know it was shot during archery season. So we

575
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:07,760
Speaker 3: don't have real fine scale data across the white tails

576
00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:10,560
Speaker 3: range of this, but we do know the percentage of

577
00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:12,840
Speaker 3: deer that are taken by bows, whether it's a bow

578
00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:16,560
Speaker 3: or a crossbow. And even though it has increased mark,

579
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:19,800
Speaker 3: what we see now is it has absolutely stabilized. You know,

580
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:23,720
Speaker 3: we're still begging hunters to shoot more deer in most places,

581
00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:27,080
Speaker 3: and it hasn't really moved the needle with with hunter

582
00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:30,400
Speaker 3: numbers like many thought it would by yeah, allow crossblinds,

583
00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:32,520
Speaker 3: you're going to add all these hunters. It really hasn't.

584
00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:35,080
Speaker 3: So what it's done and my home state is a

585
00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:37,920
Speaker 3: perfect example of this. There's more deer being shot with

586
00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:40,360
Speaker 3: a crossbow today, you know, than a decade or fifteen

587
00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:44,479
Speaker 3: years ago, but the total deer harvest has an increase.

588
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:47,640
Speaker 3: So it's essentially people that used to shoot that one

589
00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:52,560
Speaker 3: deer with a rifle in December now shoot it with

590
00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:55,800
Speaker 3: a crossbow, like in October. So what it's done is

591
00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:58,440
Speaker 3: it's widened the range of when most deer are shot,

592
00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:02,479
Speaker 3: which actually helps deers. It's allowing people to shoot them

593
00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:04,480
Speaker 3: earlier in the year when it's a lot nicer to

594
00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:08,480
Speaker 3: be in the woods. So while there are hardcore bone

595
00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:11,920
Speaker 3: hunters who are very upset about the crossbow end and

596
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:15,680
Speaker 3: feel the competition during bow season, maybe for specific buch

597
00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:19,280
Speaker 3: or whatever, the reality of it is, it hasn't increased

598
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:23,480
Speaker 3: deer harvest at all, and it hasn't negatively impacted deer

599
00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:25,560
Speaker 3: harvest at all. It's just moving a lot of it

600
00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:28,080
Speaker 3: earlier in the year and put more people in the

601
00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:32,040
Speaker 3: woods during archery season and fewer people in the woods

602
00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:35,040
Speaker 3: during firearm season in many places. So you know, it's

603
00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:38,560
Speaker 3: probably helped us maintain deer hunter numbers longer than if

604
00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:41,040
Speaker 3: we didn't have them, you know, because you know, it's

605
00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:43,280
Speaker 3: a lot easier to be out in September or October,

606
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:46,720
Speaker 3: particularly for brand new hunters or earlder hunters. But as

607
00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:49,560
Speaker 3: far as killing extra deer, it hasn't done that at all.

608
00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:54,280
Speaker 3: So it hasn't negatively impacted deer herds. And we started

609
00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:56,760
Speaker 3: this by saying we had the best age structure we've

610
00:31:56,800 --> 00:32:00,240
Speaker 3: ever had for bucks, so it hasn't hurt buck age structure.

611
00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:04,040
Speaker 3: So the real beef today is just people upset that

612
00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:07,040
Speaker 3: there's others in the woods at a certain time earlier

613
00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:09,880
Speaker 3: in the archery season with them. That's so it's more

614
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:13,760
Speaker 3: of a social problem then there's certainly no biological problem

615
00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:15,040
Speaker 3: at all with crossboats.

616
00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:15,280
Speaker 4: Event.

617
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:18,560
Speaker 2: Okay, so I want to I want to stay on

618
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:20,920
Speaker 2: this line of topic just a little bit further. So

619
00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:22,720
Speaker 2: we're going to step away from the report for a

620
00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:25,280
Speaker 2: moment because you guys don't address this in the report,

621
00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:28,520
Speaker 2: but I wanted to get your take on this, and

622
00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:32,040
Speaker 2: I know the National Deer Association has spent some time

623
00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:35,960
Speaker 2: thinking about this, and that being continuing down this line

624
00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:38,560
Speaker 2: of technology and how we hunt and the tools we

625
00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:42,760
Speaker 2: use to hunt. An increasingly popular tool in the hunting

626
00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:48,000
Speaker 2: world are drones, whether that be simple camera drones or

627
00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:51,640
Speaker 2: now even thermal imaging drones that can actually allow you

628
00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:54,000
Speaker 2: to see the heat signature of deer and very very

629
00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:56,280
Speaker 2: quickly identify all the deer in an area and zoom

630
00:32:56,320 --> 00:33:01,760
Speaker 2: in right on them like like a CIA satellite image.

631
00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:03,480
Speaker 2: And so I know the NDA has spent a little

632
00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:05,440
Speaker 2: bit of time thinking about that and put out a

633
00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:09,280
Speaker 2: position statement on that. Can you speak at all about

634
00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:13,000
Speaker 2: how your organization is thinking about how drones are being

635
00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:15,600
Speaker 2: used today, how they might be used in the future,

636
00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:19,600
Speaker 2: and where that fine line of fair chase might lie

637
00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:22,280
Speaker 2: with this technology, and you know, the ways that it's

638
00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:23,720
Speaker 2: all changing so quickly.

639
00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:28,800
Speaker 3: Sure, h man, it is that the technology that's involved

640
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:30,520
Speaker 3: with that is insane. You know, it wasn't that long

641
00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:32,640
Speaker 3: ago we had these little drones that, yeah, you could

642
00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:34,520
Speaker 3: go up you know, one hundred feet and take a

643
00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:36,920
Speaker 3: picture of your house, and then oh, now we can

644
00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:38,800
Speaker 3: do video, and you know, this is all the way

645
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:41,880
Speaker 3: up to drones today with thermal imagers, drones today that

646
00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:45,320
Speaker 3: are carrying herbicide, drones today that are carrying seeds and

647
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:48,240
Speaker 3: they're seeding plots with them. Drones today that are carrying

648
00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:51,320
Speaker 3: you know, stuff that you can use for a prescribed fire.

649
00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:55,560
Speaker 3: They're starting you know fires with these. So the technology

650
00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:59,320
Speaker 3: has greatly expanded and the technology has greatly outgrown what

651
00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:01,680
Speaker 3: we have for for laws in many states with them.

652
00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:04,080
Speaker 3: And I'll say this, you know, as an organization, the

653
00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:07,400
Speaker 3: National Deer Association, you know, we we fight for hunters rights.

654
00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:10,840
Speaker 3: You know, we're hunters. We understand, you know, why people

655
00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:14,400
Speaker 3: want to hunt and want to pursue deer. So like,

656
00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:18,400
Speaker 3: we want to support everything possible to allow hunters, you know,

657
00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:22,000
Speaker 3: to maximize time and field, to maximize efficiency and fun

658
00:34:22,160 --> 00:34:25,520
Speaker 3: and all that. However, we're first and foremost, you know,

659
00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:27,839
Speaker 3: we have to protect the resource. So we look at

660
00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:30,160
Speaker 3: any issue like this very carefully and say, hey, let's

661
00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:33,359
Speaker 3: make sure we stay within fair chase rules. Let's make

662
00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:36,799
Speaker 3: sure we're not crossing an ethical boundary. So from from

663
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:39,799
Speaker 3: a drone end, we'll start, you know, like with some

664
00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:41,880
Speaker 3: of the uses for them. We think it's awesome that

665
00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:44,000
Speaker 3: outside of a hunting season you can use them to

666
00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:47,600
Speaker 3: better understand the landscape to then go in and enhance habitat,

667
00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:49,960
Speaker 3: you know, to make that habitat better for d er

668
00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:52,640
Speaker 3: and other wildlife. I think it's great then to be

669
00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:54,520
Speaker 3: able to use those to be able to figure out, hey,

670
00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:56,680
Speaker 3: this is where I should set a stand. Well, this

671
00:34:56,840 --> 00:34:58,759
Speaker 3: is the best way to access this stand. Those are

672
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:02,200
Speaker 3: all great uses. From a recovery end, we think hunters

673
00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:06,520
Speaker 3: should do everything possible to recover every single animal that's

674
00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:08,160
Speaker 3: been hit, you know, with a bow or with an

675
00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:12,400
Speaker 3: arrow or you know, or a bullet. However, with drones,

676
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:16,040
Speaker 3: there is a real opportunity to cross that ethical line

677
00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:21,680
Speaker 3: to either find game illegally to hunt them, to find

678
00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:24,160
Speaker 3: deer that maybe why you're trying to look for one

679
00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:26,640
Speaker 3: that you've you've hit. Ooh, there's actually a bigger one

680
00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:30,640
Speaker 3: over here or more over here. And even outside the season,

681
00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:34,760
Speaker 3: there is a tremendous opportunity to harass wildlife with the drones.

682
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:37,719
Speaker 3: And this is especially true in the Midwest and other

683
00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:41,200
Speaker 3: open areas more difficult, you know, in the heavily forested regions.

684
00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:43,640
Speaker 3: But there's a real concern and I've seen it, and

685
00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:45,520
Speaker 3: I'm sure you've seen it too. I've seen people videos,

686
00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:47,840
Speaker 3: you know, people harassing you know, deer in a in

687
00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:50,040
Speaker 3: a swatheing field during the summer, you know, or in

688
00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:53,399
Speaker 3: a hayfield. So our take on it is, Hey, we

689
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:57,520
Speaker 3: want to be very genuine with how we approach this

690
00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:01,560
Speaker 3: and want to give hunters every advance while staying within

691
00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:04,680
Speaker 3: those ethical boundaries and making sure that we don't even

692
00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:06,520
Speaker 3: take a half a step across that line from an

693
00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:10,959
Speaker 3: ethical standpoint. And states are really wrangling with this trend

694
00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:14,320
Speaker 3: because it's hard to capture this in because the technology

695
00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:17,280
Speaker 3: moves so fast. By the time the states get laws

696
00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:19,960
Speaker 3: or whatever to take care of what's happened now or

697
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:22,480
Speaker 3: the issue they had last year, you know, drones are

698
00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:24,919
Speaker 3: ten steps ahead of that. There's very few other things

699
00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:27,640
Speaker 3: we talk about there like that. When trail cameras came out,

700
00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:30,080
Speaker 3: this was one of the single biggest things that hunters

701
00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:33,160
Speaker 3: or landos now had to survey deer herds and get

702
00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:35,680
Speaker 3: a feel and people say, man, this is way across

703
00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:38,200
Speaker 3: the ethical boundary. Well, today, we've had them for a

704
00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:40,000
Speaker 3: long time and people don't even look at it that

705
00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:42,600
Speaker 3: way anymore. The drone is the new thing with that

706
00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:45,400
Speaker 3: and that has the ability to go even farther, you know,

707
00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:48,880
Speaker 3: on the unethical side. So we look at it very closely.

708
00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:51,000
Speaker 3: We want folks to be able to use them, but

709
00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:55,280
Speaker 3: you know, absolutely not from a harassment end or anything

710
00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:57,680
Speaker 3: that crosses the line of fair chase, because you know

711
00:36:57,680 --> 00:37:00,640
Speaker 3: that that is the line in the sand that all

712
00:37:00,719 --> 00:37:03,080
Speaker 3: hunters have to abide by, and if we want to

713
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:05,399
Speaker 3: continue hunting, that's what we need to go bye bye.

714
00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:08,080
Speaker 3: For all of the non hunting public that allows us

715
00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:10,319
Speaker 3: to hunt, they want to make sure we're stopping at

716
00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:11,160
Speaker 3: that line as well.

717
00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:16,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's a great point. I think we oftentimes

718
00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:20,600
Speaker 2: forget that we get to deer hunt as a privilege

719
00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:22,919
Speaker 2: within this country, right, and that could be taken away

720
00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:26,799
Speaker 2: if the majority no longer supported that opportunity. So not

721
00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:29,960
Speaker 2: only is it important to be following fairchase, you know,

722
00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:33,760
Speaker 2: principles for our own selves and the sake of the activity,

723
00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:38,040
Speaker 2: but also, like very practically, there's like long term hunter

724
00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:41,640
Speaker 2: opportunity and rights ramifications to this stuff too. So even

725
00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:43,759
Speaker 2: if you know you personally think the line should be

726
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:46,040
Speaker 2: here and not here, let's also think about how the

727
00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:47,759
Speaker 2: rest of the world might look at these things and

728
00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:50,319
Speaker 2: how that could influence our opportunity to do what we love.

729
00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:03,439
Speaker 2: So I want to kind of circle back a little

730
00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:06,680
Speaker 2: bit to some things in the report and a little

731
00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:11,040
Speaker 2: bit of this, you know, I guess broader sort of

732
00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:16,120
Speaker 2: policy slash state program type topics. Something I know you

733
00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:18,120
Speaker 2: guys have been spending a lot of time on at

734
00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:22,200
Speaker 2: the NDA you talk about here in the report is

735
00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:26,920
Speaker 2: getting a better understanding of where there are donation programs

736
00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:31,319
Speaker 2: for deer meat, where there are deer processors, so that

737
00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:33,080
Speaker 2: if people need to get that meat taken care of,

738
00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:35,879
Speaker 2: they have that possibility to them to all of these

739
00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:40,200
Speaker 2: kinds of support structures that enable appropriate harvest levels. Right,

740
00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:42,640
Speaker 2: can you give us an update on where that stands.

741
00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:44,880
Speaker 2: What do you guys have found what you're working on

742
00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:45,440
Speaker 2: on that front?

743
00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:48,319
Speaker 3: Sure, And you know, we talked a little earlier about

744
00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:51,920
Speaker 3: the need to shoot more analysts deer. What you just

745
00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:54,480
Speaker 3: asked about is kind of a continuation of that because

746
00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:57,040
Speaker 3: we recognize the need for that. But we don't just

747
00:38:57,120 --> 00:38:59,759
Speaker 3: want to say, yep, go shoot more. We want to

748
00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:02,600
Speaker 3: prove I have real solutions for hunters. Let's figure out

749
00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:05,239
Speaker 3: why they're not shooting more, and then let's remove some

750
00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:08,719
Speaker 3: of those barriers, you know, and then enable them to

751
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:11,319
Speaker 3: be easier or you know, to make decisions to shoot more.

752
00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:15,520
Speaker 3: This Venison processor map and donations place perfectly into this.

753
00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:19,040
Speaker 3: I already said about forty percent of our hunters are

754
00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:20,879
Speaker 3: going to shoot a single deer this year, that's it,

755
00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:23,239
Speaker 3: and only about eighteen percent are going to shoot more

756
00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:26,640
Speaker 3: than one. This is not because they don't have the

757
00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:29,600
Speaker 3: opportunity to go afield. This is not because we don't

758
00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:32,320
Speaker 3: have abundant deer on the landscape, and it's not because

759
00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:34,799
Speaker 3: they don't have tags. Almost every hundred goes the field,

760
00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:37,239
Speaker 3: you know, with multiple buck tags and multiple inless tags.

761
00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:41,560
Speaker 3: It's selectivity, it's making that decision. So part of that

762
00:39:41,719 --> 00:39:44,200
Speaker 3: is some people just don't need that much deer. They're

763
00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:47,000
Speaker 3: gonna eat one deer and that's it. My family, we

764
00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:49,760
Speaker 3: put you know, five to seven deer in our freezer

765
00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:52,000
Speaker 3: every year and then give some more away to needy

766
00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:56,640
Speaker 3: families because we eat that much. I recognize not everybody does. However,

767
00:39:57,000 --> 00:39:59,359
Speaker 3: there's a lot of people that have the choice during

768
00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:01,920
Speaker 3: the year to shoot a dough that choose not to

769
00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:05,280
Speaker 3: because they don't need another one or don't want another one. Well,

770
00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:08,600
Speaker 3: there's two things that want. Hey, maybe we can convince

771
00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:11,239
Speaker 3: them to shoot that deer if they had an outlet

772
00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:15,839
Speaker 3: for that. Venison donation programs are a perfect outlet. But unfortunately,

773
00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:18,120
Speaker 3: there's a lot of hunters that just are not aware

774
00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:22,360
Speaker 3: of those opportunities today to get food into homes that

775
00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:24,920
Speaker 3: need it. Today, in this great country of ours, it's

776
00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:28,359
Speaker 3: insane that one in seven households are food insecure. So

777
00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:29,960
Speaker 3: think of that. All the kids that go to school

778
00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:31,680
Speaker 3: with your kids, you know, one out of every sect

779
00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:33,920
Speaker 3: they don't have enough protein at home, but yet we

780
00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:36,360
Speaker 3: have too many deer on the landscape in many places.

781
00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:39,719
Speaker 3: So we can connect hunters, let them know, hey, there

782
00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:43,399
Speaker 3: are needy families. Here is a place you can take

783
00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:46,440
Speaker 3: this deer to be processed. Because unfortunately, mark there's way

784
00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:49,319
Speaker 3: fewer venics and processors today than there have been in

785
00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:51,680
Speaker 3: the past. They go out of business. They just aren't

786
00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:55,320
Speaker 3: taking as many through COVID, through this, that disease, whatever.

787
00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:58,040
Speaker 3: There's a lot that have closed their shops. So what

788
00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:00,840
Speaker 3: we did is we worked with every single state wildlife

789
00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:04,640
Speaker 3: agency and their venison donation programs to put a national

790
00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:07,319
Speaker 3: map together. You can go on our website. There's an

791
00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:09,919
Speaker 3: interactive map, find your state and it shows every single

792
00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:13,879
Speaker 3: venison processor there. So hunter now can locate, hey, who

793
00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:18,160
Speaker 3: is closest to me. We identify which ones participate in

794
00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:22,160
Speaker 3: the state's venison donation programs. You can go drop it

795
00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:24,480
Speaker 3: off there, you go, doesn't cost you anything, and the

796
00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:27,319
Speaker 3: meat is going to a needy family. That's perfect. So

797
00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:31,920
Speaker 3: we are making raising this awareness to hunters, talking about

798
00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:33,960
Speaker 3: the need to do it. Here's they are an outlet

799
00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:37,560
Speaker 3: for it. And unfortunately, every one of those state donation

800
00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:39,839
Speaker 3: programs they run out of money during the year. You know,

801
00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:43,400
Speaker 3: they are all the runoff donations and there's some state funding,

802
00:41:43,480 --> 00:41:46,960
Speaker 3: but most part donations. However, we also know that there

803
00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:49,399
Speaker 3: are t FAB dollars that can be used for those

804
00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:53,040
Speaker 3: t FAB is a federal program that's the Emergency Food

805
00:41:53,160 --> 00:41:55,719
Speaker 3: Assistance Program. A lot of people have heard of that.

806
00:41:56,280 --> 00:41:59,719
Speaker 3: Very few people know that those dollars can go to

807
00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:03,600
Speaker 3: venison donation programs through the state. We currently work with

808
00:42:03,600 --> 00:42:05,799
Speaker 3: this through the state of Massachusetts right now on their

809
00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:10,120
Speaker 3: mass Wildlife venison donation programs. So our director of Policy

810
00:42:10,239 --> 00:42:13,480
Speaker 3: is working with many state wilife agencies to connect those dots.

811
00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:17,319
Speaker 3: Because now we provide a national map hunters, here's where

812
00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:19,719
Speaker 3: you can find a processor. Here are the ones that

813
00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:23,400
Speaker 3: it's free to you that goes to a venison donation program,

814
00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:25,560
Speaker 3: and here are the t FAB dollars to mean that

815
00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:29,480
Speaker 3: that state has way more money to pay those processors

816
00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:32,960
Speaker 3: to increase numbers of deer for those programs. And by

817
00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:36,400
Speaker 3: doing so, this reduces the barrier for hunters, makes it

818
00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:39,440
Speaker 3: very simple for them, makes it free for them, and

819
00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:42,000
Speaker 3: then they get to you to solve a problem and

820
00:42:42,040 --> 00:42:45,040
Speaker 3: help communities in need. And the best part is we

821
00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:47,279
Speaker 3: harvest deer the need to be harvested, so deer herds

822
00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:51,000
Speaker 3: are healthier, habitats are healthier, people get fed.

823
00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:54,640
Speaker 4: And who are the champion Hunters? Hunters are the champions,

824
00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:56,440
Speaker 4: are the ones that make this whole thing work. So

825
00:42:56,480 --> 00:42:59,600
Speaker 4: it's super cool that once we connect all these parts,

826
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:02,319
Speaker 4: this is what happens. So this is what we are

827
00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:04,200
Speaker 4: right in the middle of all of this. And you

828
00:43:04,239 --> 00:43:07,920
Speaker 4: are questioning about, you know, the the venison map. We

829
00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:10,000
Speaker 4: don't want to just say hunters, go shoot more deer,

830
00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:11,880
Speaker 4: say yes, we want you to.

831
00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:14,719
Speaker 3: Here's why. And man, we're gonna rolled this out and

832
00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:16,920
Speaker 3: made it as easy as possible for you to do this.

833
00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:19,560
Speaker 3: Be the champion in your society.

834
00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:22,799
Speaker 2: That's incredible. Just you know, there's a win win, and

835
00:43:22,840 --> 00:43:24,640
Speaker 2: then there's things like this where it's like a win

836
00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:27,600
Speaker 2: win win win win. There's so many across the board there,

837
00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:29,919
Speaker 2: so it's hard to argue with that. And if somebody

838
00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:31,920
Speaker 2: is listening and they'd like to see that map, I

839
00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:34,319
Speaker 2: just pulled it up. If you go to Deer Association

840
00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:37,960
Speaker 2: dot com and then underneath the you know, the menu there,

841
00:43:38,040 --> 00:43:40,759
Speaker 2: you'll see NBA programs selected that and then there's a

842
00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:43,720
Speaker 2: drop down and you'll see the National Deer Processor Map.

843
00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:47,200
Speaker 2: Very easy to get to, terrific program. Really good. Glad

844
00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:50,400
Speaker 2: you guys are working on that. You mentioned TFAB dollars.

845
00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:53,200
Speaker 2: Is that program part of the you know, associated with

846
00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:53,960
Speaker 2: the farm bill at all?

847
00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:59,440
Speaker 3: It is? Yep, it absolutely is. And so many states

848
00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:02,000
Speaker 3: were away that Yes they can use that for you know,

849
00:44:02,040 --> 00:44:04,120
Speaker 3: food assistants and that, but they weren't aware of the

850
00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:07,320
Speaker 3: connection to the venison donation part. So, uh, there's a

851
00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:10,200
Speaker 3: lot of education there at the policy level, you know,

852
00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:12,919
Speaker 3: to to allow folks, you know, the understanding of how

853
00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:17,640
Speaker 3: to incorporate those dollars. So, yep, Farm Program Bill super important.

854
00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:20,920
Speaker 3: Let me say this mark before we leave the map part.

855
00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:24,480
Speaker 3: That is an interactive map. So at any point if

856
00:44:24,520 --> 00:44:27,560
Speaker 3: somebody wants, you know, knows of a processor to be added,

857
00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:29,720
Speaker 3: just reach out to us and we'll get them added

858
00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:31,800
Speaker 3: on there. I mean, we want to have as complete

859
00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:34,200
Speaker 3: of the map as possible. If we understand there's a

860
00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:37,160
Speaker 3: lot of mom and pop processing you know that goes on,

861
00:44:37,560 --> 00:44:39,480
Speaker 3: we can get any of that on here. Anything to

862
00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:43,000
Speaker 3: help hunters, you know, connect and find a processor we

863
00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:45,960
Speaker 3: want to do. So uh, yeah, we'll update that you know,

864
00:44:46,040 --> 00:44:48,600
Speaker 3: at a moment's notice, So anybody can hit let us

865
00:44:48,640 --> 00:44:51,279
Speaker 3: know where processor is that we don't have, and we'd

866
00:44:51,360 --> 00:44:52,120
Speaker 3: love to get them at it.

867
00:44:53,440 --> 00:44:56,279
Speaker 2: That's great. Uh So I was gonna ask related to

868
00:44:56,320 --> 00:45:00,600
Speaker 2: the farm bell then, Yeah, we've talked about the farm

869
00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:02,920
Speaker 2: bill here on the podcast, you know, every couple of

870
00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:05,440
Speaker 2: years for quite a while now, and for the last

871
00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:07,520
Speaker 2: few years it has been pushed. It has you know,

872
00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:12,120
Speaker 2: been needing reauthorization for several years now, continues to be

873
00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:14,440
Speaker 2: pushed and pushed and pushed. I'm curious if you have

874
00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:17,400
Speaker 2: any update on on where things stand with the farm

875
00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:21,600
Speaker 2: bill these days and the and the conservation program specifically

876
00:45:21,680 --> 00:45:24,759
Speaker 2: tied to that, any updates that that deer hunters should

877
00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:25,160
Speaker 2: know about.

878
00:45:26,120 --> 00:45:28,319
Speaker 3: I have some updates, and none of it's good for us.

879
00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:32,279
Speaker 3: And this is this comes from our director policy and

880
00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:35,520
Speaker 3: a and a federal policy person that we work with

881
00:45:35,560 --> 00:45:38,320
Speaker 3: that updated me and our staff on this here recently

882
00:45:38,640 --> 00:45:40,839
Speaker 3: and essentially just with what's going on in the world

883
00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:43,719
Speaker 3: today and where we are with all the other big issues.

884
00:45:44,040 --> 00:45:46,320
Speaker 3: Well they said, is you know, basically the can is

885
00:45:46,360 --> 00:45:49,480
Speaker 3: still just being kicked down the road with reauthorization for

886
00:45:49,560 --> 00:45:52,640
Speaker 3: farm bill. So I don't know the ins and outs

887
00:45:52,680 --> 00:45:54,680
Speaker 3: of it. I know they're the ones that work on

888
00:45:54,719 --> 00:45:57,000
Speaker 3: this on a daily basis, so uh, that's what they

889
00:45:57,040 --> 00:46:00,240
Speaker 3: shared with me. So now, that's so not good news

890
00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:03,440
Speaker 3: for sportsmen and women by any means, but apparently that

891
00:46:03,520 --> 00:46:05,560
Speaker 3: is that is the reality of where we are today.

892
00:46:07,080 --> 00:46:09,200
Speaker 2: Okay, Well, I hate to do this then, because I'm

893
00:46:09,239 --> 00:46:12,120
Speaker 2: going to continue to ask you about not good news things.

894
00:46:13,320 --> 00:46:16,160
Speaker 2: The next the next topic that we have to address

895
00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:19,440
Speaker 2: and we have to talk about is where things stand

896
00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:21,920
Speaker 2: on the disease front, which I think is every deer

897
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:29,280
Speaker 2: hunter's least favorite topic, but it is also an important one. So, Kip,

898
00:46:29,640 --> 00:46:32,480
Speaker 2: can you get us the latest on what you guys

899
00:46:32,760 --> 00:46:37,080
Speaker 2: saw when you reported this most recent year on trends

900
00:46:37,320 --> 00:46:40,640
Speaker 2: with CWD and EHD, which which tend to be the

901
00:46:40,640 --> 00:46:44,480
Speaker 2: two most high profile disease issues in the country. And

902
00:46:44,520 --> 00:46:46,840
Speaker 2: then I've got some more specific CWD questions, but I

903
00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:49,040
Speaker 2: guess high level, what were the trends that we saw

904
00:46:49,080 --> 00:46:50,160
Speaker 2: in those two fronts.

905
00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:53,719
Speaker 3: Let's start with with hemorrhagic disease. There were there were

906
00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:57,839
Speaker 3: twenty seven states that confirmed the disease last year, which

907
00:46:57,920 --> 00:47:02,480
Speaker 3: was a couple more than the year before. Twenty four

908
00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:06,760
Speaker 3: was considered a lower moderate year for it last year

909
00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:10,200
Speaker 3: most places, even though there was a couple more states,

910
00:47:10,239 --> 00:47:14,000
Speaker 3: most places that were the gain was low to moderate severity. However,

911
00:47:14,160 --> 00:47:17,239
Speaker 3: there were some places that were absolutely hammered with it,

912
00:47:17,760 --> 00:47:21,000
Speaker 3: the Ohio River Valley being being you know that that

913
00:47:21,200 --> 00:47:24,600
Speaker 3: was number one place, So you know they're in southeast

914
00:47:24,600 --> 00:47:27,680
Speaker 3: Ohio and across the line into West Virginia. Those year

915
00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:33,120
Speaker 3: got just absolutely slammed. So the thing with him rragic

916
00:47:33,239 --> 00:47:35,960
Speaker 3: disease that that I that I tell deer hunters to

917
00:47:36,200 --> 00:47:38,680
Speaker 3: I think we really need to watch is one. You know,

918
00:47:38,880 --> 00:47:41,680
Speaker 3: this used to be considered a disease of southeastern deer.

919
00:47:41,719 --> 00:47:45,440
Speaker 3: You know, it wasn't everywhere. That's not the case anymore, man.

920
00:47:45,440 --> 00:47:48,200
Speaker 3: This thing is all across the US and up into Canada.

921
00:47:48,280 --> 00:47:50,000
Speaker 3: You know, we see it every year in my home

922
00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:52,719
Speaker 3: state of Pennsylvania now, and you know that. I mean

923
00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:55,319
Speaker 3: in the past that just never happened, you know. But

924
00:47:55,400 --> 00:47:57,960
Speaker 3: with a warmer climate, you know, the vector which are

925
00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:02,600
Speaker 3: the midges, they're moving way farther north, becoming much more common.

926
00:48:02,840 --> 00:48:06,040
Speaker 3: And we're also seeing new strains of hemorrhagic disease. So

927
00:48:06,200 --> 00:48:09,080
Speaker 3: even the deer in the southeast, you know that typically

928
00:48:09,239 --> 00:48:11,640
Speaker 3: would get exposed to it, you know, but the wouldn't die.

929
00:48:12,200 --> 00:48:14,120
Speaker 3: And this is a big thing with Hemorrhaget's not all

930
00:48:14,160 --> 00:48:17,800
Speaker 3: deer die from it in the southeast because they're exposed

931
00:48:17,840 --> 00:48:20,640
Speaker 3: every year, you know, Yeah, a few deer die here

932
00:48:20,680 --> 00:48:24,520
Speaker 3: that well, there's these new strains. I mean, deer in

933
00:48:24,520 --> 00:48:27,160
Speaker 3: the southeast in many cases are just as naive to

934
00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:30,040
Speaker 3: those strains as our northern deer are. So we're seeing

935
00:48:30,080 --> 00:48:32,760
Speaker 3: some bigger die offs in places in the south as well.

936
00:48:32,920 --> 00:48:36,520
Speaker 3: So long term, it looks like hemorrhagic disease will continue

937
00:48:36,560 --> 00:48:42,600
Speaker 3: to grow and expand, largely because of our current climate. Fortunately,

938
00:48:43,040 --> 00:48:47,279
Speaker 3: it's not devastating to most deer herds. Some deer that

939
00:48:47,400 --> 00:48:50,200
Speaker 3: get it don't die. Those that do tend to die

940
00:48:50,320 --> 00:48:53,040
Speaker 3: very quickly, so they're not giving it to other deer.

941
00:48:53,080 --> 00:48:55,000
Speaker 3: They can't do that, so that is a good thing.

942
00:48:55,480 --> 00:48:59,279
Speaker 3: So it's an increasing concern. And may I feel for

943
00:48:59,280 --> 00:49:01,560
Speaker 3: people that want to it's bad where you are, because

944
00:49:01,640 --> 00:49:04,080
Speaker 3: I get it. I mean, it's easy for me to say, yeah,

945
00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:05,919
Speaker 3: it wasn't that bad of a year. You know, none

946
00:49:05,920 --> 00:49:07,560
Speaker 3: of the deer on the farm and I hunt died.

947
00:49:07,920 --> 00:49:11,160
Speaker 3: You know, so I sympathize with with people who haven't.

948
00:49:11,200 --> 00:49:14,479
Speaker 3: So it's a big deal for sure. The other half

949
00:49:14,520 --> 00:49:17,840
Speaker 3: of that is a CWD, and this continues to be

950
00:49:17,920 --> 00:49:20,760
Speaker 3: the single largest threat to the future of our deer herbs.

951
00:49:20,880 --> 00:49:23,120
Speaker 3: And that's not just me saying that mark or NDA.

952
00:49:23,360 --> 00:49:26,840
Speaker 3: The vast majority of wildlife professionals believe that's the single

953
00:49:26,920 --> 00:49:31,000
Speaker 3: largest threat. The reason for that is, unlike hemorrhagic disease,

954
00:49:31,480 --> 00:49:35,279
Speaker 3: CWD is fatal to one hundred percent of deer. Every

955
00:49:35,360 --> 00:49:38,440
Speaker 3: deer that gets it's going to die. Also different from

956
00:49:38,440 --> 00:49:42,120
Speaker 3: hemorrhagic disease. If a deer has CWD, it can infect

957
00:49:42,160 --> 00:49:45,160
Speaker 3: other deer that it comes in contact with, and it

958
00:49:45,160 --> 00:49:47,840
Speaker 3: can infect other deer that it doesn't come in contact with,

959
00:49:48,200 --> 00:49:52,400
Speaker 3: just by things that it leaves in the environment like urine, feces, saliva,

960
00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:54,640
Speaker 3: other deer that come in contact with that, or it

961
00:49:54,840 --> 00:49:58,839
Speaker 3: remains after it dies. So it's just so much more contagious.

962
00:49:58,960 --> 00:50:02,160
Speaker 3: That's the big thing with CWD. It's in thirty six

963
00:50:02,200 --> 00:50:04,840
Speaker 3: states now, Georgia being the most recent, so you know,

964
00:50:04,880 --> 00:50:07,879
Speaker 3: it continues to expand. But what I want to tell

965
00:50:07,920 --> 00:50:10,200
Speaker 3: people is in uh, you know, we're in battles of

966
00:50:10,280 --> 00:50:13,320
Speaker 3: this all the time. People say, well, hamorrhagic disease is worse,

967
00:50:13,840 --> 00:50:16,360
Speaker 3: And what I tell people is that's not true. And

968
00:50:17,440 --> 00:50:19,399
Speaker 3: I think that we missed the point by saying, well

969
00:50:19,440 --> 00:50:22,960
Speaker 3: CWD is worse, or hemorrhagic disease is worse. So I

970
00:50:22,960 --> 00:50:26,640
Speaker 3: tell people is they're both bad. They're both really bad.

971
00:50:26,760 --> 00:50:29,640
Speaker 3: It's not a one or it's both. We need to

972
00:50:29,680 --> 00:50:33,240
Speaker 3: work on both. We attack those two diseases very differently,

973
00:50:34,280 --> 00:50:36,960
Speaker 3: but I think people like to fight over one or

974
00:50:37,000 --> 00:50:39,040
Speaker 3: the other and they just lose sight of the big picture.

975
00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:42,040
Speaker 3: The big picture is they are both really really bad

976
00:50:42,080 --> 00:50:45,800
Speaker 3: diseases for deer. They both negatively impact the future of

977
00:50:45,800 --> 00:50:48,480
Speaker 3: our hunting. So as sportsmen and women, we need to

978
00:50:48,520 --> 00:50:51,160
Speaker 3: engage with our state wilife agencies and do everything we

979
00:50:51,239 --> 00:50:55,480
Speaker 3: can to battle those to limit, you know, spread of

980
00:50:55,520 --> 00:50:58,600
Speaker 3: both of those diseases. And that's really the reality of

981
00:50:58,640 --> 00:51:00,960
Speaker 3: where we are today. When when our kids there were

982
00:51:01,000 --> 00:51:03,040
Speaker 3: different things that were the biggest threats we had to

983
00:51:03,040 --> 00:51:06,760
Speaker 3: deal with. Today it's disease, and both of those diseases

984
00:51:06,800 --> 00:51:08,400
Speaker 3: are very bad and getting worse.

985
00:51:10,040 --> 00:51:14,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just it's so tricky to see and feel

986
00:51:14,880 --> 00:51:18,520
Speaker 2: and understand the ramifications of one of them compared to

987
00:51:18,600 --> 00:51:21,120
Speaker 2: the other. And I feel like that just continuously leads

988
00:51:21,120 --> 00:51:25,320
Speaker 2: to conspiracy and folks, you know, being in denial. You know,

989
00:51:25,400 --> 00:51:27,440
Speaker 2: there was just somebody on social media the other day.

990
00:51:27,440 --> 00:51:29,319
Speaker 2: He has a large platform, and I ran across this

991
00:51:29,440 --> 00:51:32,799
Speaker 2: video and he said something like, you know, do this

992
00:51:32,880 --> 00:51:36,839
Speaker 2: thought experiment with me. Think about you know, if if

993
00:51:36,920 --> 00:51:40,120
Speaker 2: you didn't have the media, and if the media told

994
00:51:40,120 --> 00:51:44,480
Speaker 2: you nothing about EHD, and all you had to go

995
00:51:44,560 --> 00:51:47,000
Speaker 2: from was your personal lived experience and those in your

996
00:51:47,360 --> 00:51:50,080
Speaker 2: family and your community, would you know that EHD existed

997
00:51:50,080 --> 00:51:52,040
Speaker 2: and then it might impact you. And so just think

998
00:51:52,080 --> 00:51:53,759
Speaker 2: about that. And it's like, okay, and now take a

999
00:51:53,760 --> 00:51:57,360
Speaker 2: look at CWD. If the media wasn't continuously preaching to

1000
00:51:57,400 --> 00:51:59,600
Speaker 2: you about this and all these so called experts weren't

1001
00:51:59,600 --> 00:52:02,920
Speaker 2: preaching about it, would you have any idea that CWD

1002
00:52:03,080 --> 00:52:05,560
Speaker 2: is impacting something in your life and in your community?

1003
00:52:05,880 --> 00:52:07,399
Speaker 2: Could you see it and feel it? Yeah, just think

1004
00:52:07,440 --> 00:52:10,600
Speaker 2: about that. And the point he was getting at is

1005
00:52:10,640 --> 00:52:13,480
Speaker 2: that he was claiming that the media is feeding you

1006
00:52:13,560 --> 00:52:16,080
Speaker 2: this thing, these so called experts are feeding you this thing.

1007
00:52:16,120 --> 00:52:19,640
Speaker 2: But no one's actually experienced any downsides of CWD. But

1008
00:52:19,719 --> 00:52:22,160
Speaker 2: we've all experienced some kind of real downside to EHD.

1009
00:52:22,239 --> 00:52:25,320
Speaker 2: Because it's immedia, it can be very concentrated and noticeable.

1010
00:52:25,320 --> 00:52:26,680
Speaker 2: We're all of a sudden, a bunch of deer die

1011
00:52:26,680 --> 00:52:29,239
Speaker 2: in a week, and it's like obvious. With CWD, it's

1012
00:52:29,360 --> 00:52:31,880
Speaker 2: much much harder to see that firsthand and to recognize

1013
00:52:31,880 --> 00:52:34,160
Speaker 2: that firsthand. Of course, that doesn't mean it's not a

1014
00:52:34,200 --> 00:52:35,680
Speaker 2: real thing, and that doesn't mean it's not going to

1015
00:52:35,719 --> 00:52:39,680
Speaker 2: have very real long term implications. But for the average

1016
00:52:39,719 --> 00:52:42,520
Speaker 2: everyday person, it's a harder, you know, two series of

1017
00:52:42,560 --> 00:52:45,319
Speaker 2: dots to connect the lines between what do you say

1018
00:52:45,360 --> 00:52:47,520
Speaker 2: to somebody who hears that and thought to themselves like,

1019
00:52:47,560 --> 00:52:49,879
Speaker 2: oh yeah, I don't know. This is hard to wrap

1020
00:52:49,920 --> 00:52:52,160
Speaker 2: my head around. This is this has been going on,

1021
00:52:52,200 --> 00:52:54,120
Speaker 2: add no ousen for you for twenty years. I know,

1022
00:52:54,400 --> 00:52:56,520
Speaker 2: I know you're sick of having to make this case,

1023
00:52:56,640 --> 00:52:59,759
Speaker 2: but bear with me and do it one more time.

1024
00:53:00,040 --> 00:53:01,879
Speaker 3: You know. And I'm fine to this because you're right

1025
00:53:01,920 --> 00:53:03,600
Speaker 3: because it is such a big issue and there's a

1026
00:53:03,600 --> 00:53:05,920
Speaker 3: lot of hunters that that wonder that exact same thing.

1027
00:53:06,400 --> 00:53:10,760
Speaker 3: I liken the two diseases to hemorrhagic disease. Incubation period

1028
00:53:10,840 --> 00:53:12,920
Speaker 3: is only five to nine days, So if it is

1029
00:53:12,960 --> 00:53:15,080
Speaker 3: gonna die, it's gonna die. You know, within five to

1030
00:53:15,160 --> 00:53:18,040
Speaker 3: nine days we see them. They all congregate the water,

1031
00:53:18,280 --> 00:53:22,080
Speaker 3: so it's very simple to find them. I liken that too.

1032
00:53:22,480 --> 00:53:25,920
Speaker 3: That's the hornet's nest in that bush in your front yard.

1033
00:53:27,040 --> 00:53:29,239
Speaker 3: If you walk out and you kick that hornet's nest,

1034
00:53:29,480 --> 00:53:32,480
Speaker 3: there is an immediate reaction. You're gonna You can see it,

1035
00:53:32,800 --> 00:53:37,000
Speaker 3: and you know that's heemorrhagic disease. CWD is very different.

1036
00:53:37,680 --> 00:53:42,200
Speaker 3: Incubation is eighteen to twenty four months, so way lower.

1037
00:53:42,840 --> 00:53:47,600
Speaker 3: CWD is like the termite under your house. You might

1038
00:53:47,640 --> 00:53:49,879
Speaker 3: see that hornet's nest in your front yard every day.

1039
00:53:50,040 --> 00:53:53,279
Speaker 3: You don't see the termites under your house, but every

1040
00:53:53,360 --> 00:53:56,360
Speaker 3: day they weaken the foundation, and when you do figure

1041
00:53:56,400 --> 00:53:59,560
Speaker 3: it out, in many cases it's too late to save

1042
00:53:59,600 --> 00:54:04,960
Speaker 3: the house. That's the CWD in deer because it goes

1043
00:54:05,000 --> 00:54:08,200
Speaker 3: so slowly, but it just keeps wearing away the foundation

1044
00:54:08,760 --> 00:54:10,879
Speaker 3: of that deer herd. And for the people to say, well,

1045
00:54:10,880 --> 00:54:15,560
Speaker 3: there's no declines in are in wildlife because of CWD,

1046
00:54:15,719 --> 00:54:20,040
Speaker 3: that's not true. We have absolute published declines and out populations.

1047
00:54:20,040 --> 00:54:24,280
Speaker 3: In Wyoming. We have population declines and mule deer populations

1048
00:54:24,320 --> 00:54:28,400
Speaker 3: in the west now and in white tails in northwest Nebraska,

1049
00:54:28,440 --> 00:54:33,719
Speaker 3: we have population declines specifically due to CWD. University of

1050
00:54:33,760 --> 00:54:36,720
Speaker 3: Georgia researchers finished this project up about a year ago.

1051
00:54:36,920 --> 00:54:40,000
Speaker 3: They have three different study sites in Arkansas in the

1052
00:54:40,040 --> 00:54:42,600
Speaker 3: area that they first found the disease, and they have

1053
00:54:42,760 --> 00:54:45,680
Speaker 3: monitored all kinds of stuff with that. The long and

1054
00:54:45,760 --> 00:54:50,400
Speaker 3: short of it is those three study sites deer herds today.

1055
00:54:50,680 --> 00:54:53,120
Speaker 3: So think about the deer per square mile, or you

1056
00:54:53,160 --> 00:54:55,600
Speaker 3: hunt how many deer per square mile. Most hunters don't

1057
00:54:55,600 --> 00:54:57,520
Speaker 3: want to hunt if there's less than twenty to thirty

1058
00:54:57,560 --> 00:54:59,879
Speaker 3: deer per square mile, and they're not happy unless there's

1059
00:55:00,280 --> 00:55:04,719
Speaker 3: deer per square mile there are those populations today have

1060
00:55:04,960 --> 00:55:08,919
Speaker 3: between one and five deer per square mile. That's it,

1061
00:55:10,000 --> 00:55:13,480
Speaker 3: and it's because of CWD. They started way higher than that,

1062
00:55:13,560 --> 00:55:17,120
Speaker 3: and that's how far. Look when they found CWD in

1063
00:55:17,120 --> 00:55:20,160
Speaker 3: that area, Oh it's brand new. Well now, it had

1064
00:55:20,280 --> 00:55:22,200
Speaker 3: been there a while and they now believe that it

1065
00:55:22,280 --> 00:55:25,239
Speaker 3: probably was there for twenty years before they found it,

1066
00:55:25,480 --> 00:55:28,000
Speaker 3: so it had a twenty year head start to just

1067
00:55:28,520 --> 00:55:31,560
Speaker 3: that's why the prevalence rates there are so high. In deerers,

1068
00:55:32,239 --> 00:55:34,279
Speaker 3: and this is exactly what we're seeing there.

1069
00:55:34,320 --> 00:55:34,560
Speaker 4: Now.

1070
00:55:34,840 --> 00:55:36,520
Speaker 3: Do you want to go go hunt where there's five

1071
00:55:36,560 --> 00:55:39,440
Speaker 3: deer per square mile? You know I have hunted in

1072
00:55:39,440 --> 00:55:41,880
Speaker 3: those situations, and I know you probably have as well.

1073
00:55:41,960 --> 00:55:44,200
Speaker 3: You don't see many deer. You certainly don't see if

1074
00:55:44,239 --> 00:55:46,879
Speaker 3: any where there's one one deer per square mile, you're

1075
00:55:46,880 --> 00:55:49,520
Speaker 3: like on averagers, one deer for every six hundred and

1076
00:55:49,520 --> 00:55:53,720
Speaker 3: forty acres. This is because of CWD. And what shows

1077
00:55:53,800 --> 00:55:56,239
Speaker 3: that this is the first example, you know, in a

1078
00:55:56,520 --> 00:55:58,279
Speaker 3: place in the US where we have a bunch of

1079
00:55:58,320 --> 00:56:00,879
Speaker 3: deer and a lot of deer owners, you know, Wisconsin

1080
00:56:01,040 --> 00:56:02,719
Speaker 3: or somebody is going to be next. I mean, this

1081
00:56:02,880 --> 00:56:05,080
Speaker 3: is the thing we're going to see grow. So just

1082
00:56:05,120 --> 00:56:07,799
Speaker 3: like those termites under your house, you don't see them today,

1083
00:56:07,920 --> 00:56:10,400
Speaker 3: you know, but twenty years down the road, you're like, oh, man,

1084
00:56:10,440 --> 00:56:13,279
Speaker 3: we should have done something about this. That that's the

1085
00:56:13,320 --> 00:56:19,120
Speaker 3: big difference between CWD and hamorrhagic disease. And so that's

1086
00:56:19,120 --> 00:56:20,400
Speaker 3: why we fight so hard for that.

1087
00:56:21,520 --> 00:56:26,400
Speaker 2: So for years now, in these discussions, the next question

1088
00:56:26,520 --> 00:56:28,760
Speaker 2: is always well, what can we do or what what

1089
00:56:28,760 --> 00:56:31,680
Speaker 2: what happens next? And for a long time the answer

1090
00:56:31,760 --> 00:56:35,239
Speaker 2: has been well, follow your state's best guidelines to slow

1091
00:56:35,280 --> 00:56:37,200
Speaker 2: the spread as much as possible, because if you don't

1092
00:56:37,200 --> 00:56:38,880
Speaker 2: have it, you don't want it. So let's follow all

1093
00:56:38,880 --> 00:56:42,200
Speaker 2: the best practices, and then let's advocate for, you know,

1094
00:56:42,680 --> 00:56:46,920
Speaker 2: more funding for research. Let's support you know, hopefully finding

1095
00:56:46,960 --> 00:56:48,880
Speaker 2: solutions because right now we don't have a great solution,

1096
00:56:48,960 --> 00:56:52,520
Speaker 2: so we need to fund studies and research and different

1097
00:56:52,600 --> 00:56:55,160
Speaker 2: projects that might get us to some kind of better solution.

1098
00:56:56,160 --> 00:56:59,240
Speaker 2: In your report, you have a long list of different

1099
00:56:59,280 --> 00:57:02,800
Speaker 2: studies results coming out when it comes to CWD research

1100
00:57:03,080 --> 00:57:06,680
Speaker 2: and new findings. Is there anything from that list that

1101
00:57:06,760 --> 00:57:09,480
Speaker 2: stands out to as worth you know, the general public

1102
00:57:09,560 --> 00:57:11,879
Speaker 2: knowing a little bit more about well.

1103
00:57:11,800 --> 00:57:13,800
Speaker 3: I think that we know more today than ever before

1104
00:57:13,840 --> 00:57:16,400
Speaker 3: about it, which is good. There's a lot of research

1105
00:57:16,480 --> 00:57:20,240
Speaker 3: going on about it, which is good. There's multiple studies

1106
00:57:20,280 --> 00:57:23,320
Speaker 3: out there looking at developing a vaccine for it, which

1107
00:57:23,360 --> 00:57:25,760
Speaker 3: is great because that's the first step, you know, and

1108
00:57:25,920 --> 00:57:28,760
Speaker 3: having that, you know, it takes a while. There's a

1109
00:57:28,760 --> 00:57:31,320
Speaker 3: bunch of trials, So the fact that there's not just

1110
00:57:31,400 --> 00:57:34,800
Speaker 3: one but multiple people trying to develop that, I think

1111
00:57:34,920 --> 00:57:37,920
Speaker 3: is very positive and that's all the more incentive for

1112
00:57:38,040 --> 00:57:41,560
Speaker 3: me anyway to continue fighting to limit spread so that

1113
00:57:41,600 --> 00:57:43,920
Speaker 3: once we do find a vaccine, you know, we can

1114
00:57:43,960 --> 00:57:46,360
Speaker 3: apply it to a larger number of deer, you know,

1115
00:57:46,600 --> 00:57:50,000
Speaker 3: or at least a larger percentage of those deer more quickly.

1116
00:57:50,520 --> 00:57:53,960
Speaker 3: So I tell people every single hunter can get engaged.

1117
00:57:54,160 --> 00:57:56,920
Speaker 3: Keep hunting. First of all, every time you shoot a

1118
00:57:56,960 --> 00:57:59,720
Speaker 3: deer that has the disease, hey, you've helped the battle,

1119
00:58:00,160 --> 00:58:02,880
Speaker 3: removed a positive animal for the landscape. That is good.

1120
00:58:03,320 --> 00:58:07,280
Speaker 3: Now it can't infect any others. So keep hunting. Provide

1121
00:58:07,320 --> 00:58:09,840
Speaker 3: samples to our agencies so we know where the disease

1122
00:58:09,960 --> 00:58:11,880
Speaker 3: is and the prevalence rate. You know, there's stuff that

1123
00:58:11,920 --> 00:58:14,520
Speaker 3: has hunters we can do every single day, and I'm

1124
00:58:14,520 --> 00:58:17,360
Speaker 3: more encouraged with the amount of research for that than

1125
00:58:17,400 --> 00:58:20,600
Speaker 3: in the past. We finally do have some success stories,

1126
00:58:20,920 --> 00:58:23,439
Speaker 3: you know, with regard to that, so you know we're

1127
00:58:23,480 --> 00:58:25,720
Speaker 3: on the right path. We just need time, and that's

1128
00:58:25,720 --> 00:58:28,600
Speaker 3: why it's important for every deer hunter to engage do

1129
00:58:28,680 --> 00:58:31,560
Speaker 3: what they can, you know, with this fight, because man,

1130
00:58:31,640 --> 00:58:33,880
Speaker 3: it's a fight worth fighting for sure. If there ever

1131
00:58:34,240 --> 00:58:36,840
Speaker 3: was a fight worth fighting in the deer world, this

1132
00:58:36,920 --> 00:58:37,240
Speaker 3: is one.

1133
00:58:38,920 --> 00:58:42,160
Speaker 2: So all that said, Kip, how do you feel about

1134
00:58:42,240 --> 00:58:46,200
Speaker 2: the fact that some states are seemingly pulling back on

1135
00:58:46,280 --> 00:58:50,720
Speaker 2: their CWD management efforts. You know, Missouri just announced, you know,

1136
00:58:50,840 --> 00:58:52,400
Speaker 2: end of last year or beginning of this year, that

1137
00:58:52,440 --> 00:58:55,880
Speaker 2: they are going to stop their targeted removal program. States

1138
00:58:55,880 --> 00:58:59,000
Speaker 2: like my home state of Michigan are in real discussions

1139
00:58:59,040 --> 00:59:02,080
Speaker 2: about bringing BATA back. And I know that's you know,

1140
00:59:02,120 --> 00:59:04,560
Speaker 2: just a couple example of things happening all across the state.

1141
00:59:05,680 --> 00:59:07,840
Speaker 2: What's your what's your take on that trend?

1142
00:59:08,320 --> 00:59:10,720
Speaker 3: Man, that's not headed the right way, and I feel

1143
00:59:10,760 --> 00:59:14,120
Speaker 3: so bad, particularly for Missouri. There is very clear the

1144
00:59:14,320 --> 00:59:17,720
Speaker 3: single best thing we can do to remove the most

1145
00:59:17,920 --> 00:59:22,240
Speaker 3: CWD positive deer from the landscape while simultaneously having the

1146
00:59:22,520 --> 00:59:26,640
Speaker 3: minimum negative impact to hunters is targeted removal. Because you

1147
00:59:26,800 --> 00:59:30,440
Speaker 3: know where a CWD positive is, you are guaranteed there's

1148
00:59:30,560 --> 00:59:34,240
Speaker 3: other positive deer around it. So the strategical removal of

1149
00:59:34,240 --> 00:59:38,200
Speaker 3: those sharpshooting programs does more for removing positive deer from

1150
00:59:38,200 --> 00:59:40,760
Speaker 3: the landscape than anything else. And then you're removing the

1151
00:59:40,840 --> 00:59:44,120
Speaker 3: least number of deer from a hunting standpoint, so it

1152
00:59:44,200 --> 00:59:47,280
Speaker 3: hurts hunters the least. It actually helps hunters the most.

1153
00:59:47,600 --> 00:59:52,280
Speaker 3: You know, they notice impacts the least. Unfortunately, though, public

1154
00:59:52,360 --> 00:59:56,160
Speaker 3: outcry around sharp shooting programs goes crazy and people lose

1155
00:59:56,240 --> 00:59:58,840
Speaker 3: their minds with you know, they're killing all the deer

1156
00:59:58,880 --> 01:00:01,600
Speaker 3: and this is bad, and and some celebrities get involved

1157
01:00:01,640 --> 01:00:05,000
Speaker 3: and just make it worse. Missouri is the shining star example.

1158
01:00:05,320 --> 01:00:07,960
Speaker 3: No state has done a better job of keeping prevalence

1159
01:00:08,040 --> 01:00:10,520
Speaker 3: rates as low as they have for as long as

1160
01:00:10,560 --> 01:00:13,280
Speaker 3: they have as the state of Missouri. The Missouri Department

1161
01:00:13,320 --> 01:00:16,880
Speaker 3: of Conservation has done a fantastic job. Just past year

1162
01:00:16,880 --> 01:00:20,720
Speaker 3: and a half, public outcry, mostly through social media campaigns,

1163
01:00:20,720 --> 01:00:24,680
Speaker 3: has been so bad that the agency just can't withstand

1164
01:00:24,680 --> 01:00:27,080
Speaker 3: it anymore. And I don't mean that they're given up.

1165
01:00:27,120 --> 01:00:31,240
Speaker 3: I mean from political there's political motivations now, so you

1166
01:00:31,360 --> 01:00:33,400
Speaker 3: can't just say, well, yeah, they should just continue to

1167
01:00:33,400 --> 01:00:36,520
Speaker 3: fight when all of those people are so upset and

1168
01:00:36,520 --> 01:00:39,640
Speaker 3: they're going to the legislators, that negatively impacts other things

1169
01:00:39,680 --> 01:00:44,360
Speaker 3: that MDC can do. So I understand why Missouri's going

1170
01:00:44,440 --> 01:00:47,080
Speaker 3: that route. I think that's a real loss for the

1171
01:00:47,120 --> 01:00:50,880
Speaker 3: future of CWD management and a loss of hunters. Four

1172
01:00:50,960 --> 01:00:54,640
Speaker 3: hunters in Missouri moving away from those sharpshooting programs because

1173
01:00:54,640 --> 01:00:58,000
Speaker 3: there's nothing else that works that good every moving positive

1174
01:00:58,080 --> 01:01:00,880
Speaker 3: CWD positive deer from the landscape.

1175
01:01:01,800 --> 01:01:04,200
Speaker 2: What about the baiting trend, I feel like that's popping

1176
01:01:04,240 --> 01:01:07,200
Speaker 2: up again more and more places. I know you guys

1177
01:01:07,200 --> 01:01:11,480
Speaker 2: have a nuanced position on baiting at the NDA, can

1178
01:01:11,520 --> 01:01:13,120
Speaker 2: you can you give us some thoughts there.

1179
01:01:13,720 --> 01:01:17,640
Speaker 3: Sure, it's very clear that there's nothing that spreads disease

1180
01:01:17,760 --> 01:01:21,480
Speaker 3: faster than when deer are congregated and they're swapping spit

1181
01:01:21,600 --> 01:01:24,120
Speaker 3: and urine in saliva, and that happens more a bait

1182
01:01:24,160 --> 01:01:27,280
Speaker 3: sites than anywhere else. The science is very very clear

1183
01:01:27,320 --> 01:01:29,800
Speaker 3: on that. We don't talk about the ethical part, whether

1184
01:01:29,840 --> 01:01:31,680
Speaker 3: you should use bait from a hunting end or not,

1185
01:01:31,800 --> 01:01:34,680
Speaker 3: I don't care about that, But from a science end,

1186
01:01:34,880 --> 01:01:37,560
Speaker 3: the biology is very clear that if you have a disease,

1187
01:01:37,920 --> 01:01:40,480
Speaker 3: that's where it's going to spread first and spread fastest.

1188
01:01:40,800 --> 01:01:43,320
Speaker 3: So baiting is not good in disease zones. And we

1189
01:01:43,480 --> 01:01:47,680
Speaker 3: absolutely oppose baiting in any disease zones because we don't

1190
01:01:47,720 --> 01:01:51,520
Speaker 3: want deer you know, trading spit and urine and feces

1191
01:01:51,560 --> 01:01:53,800
Speaker 3: and all that way better. And I'm had that bait,

1192
01:01:53,840 --> 01:01:56,320
Speaker 3: So those deer stays spread out, you know, they're not

1193
01:01:56,400 --> 01:01:58,960
Speaker 3: coming into contact with each other as much. And it's

1194
01:01:58,960 --> 01:02:01,800
Speaker 3: not just CWD. There's lots of research that shows that

1195
01:02:02,240 --> 01:02:06,120
Speaker 3: mange is greatly the spread of it is greatly increased

1196
01:02:06,120 --> 01:02:11,080
Speaker 3: at bait sites. Brucellosis greatly increased there, tuberculosis of course

1197
01:02:11,080 --> 01:02:14,040
Speaker 3: here you had that in Michigan, CWD it also, I mean,

1198
01:02:14,120 --> 01:02:17,120
Speaker 3: it was all kinds of diseases and ailments that are

1199
01:02:17,160 --> 01:02:22,040
Speaker 3: bad for deer. That spread is greatly increased at bait sites.

1200
01:02:22,200 --> 01:02:23,840
Speaker 3: So because of that, we don't think that you should

1201
01:02:23,840 --> 01:02:26,560
Speaker 3: be able to bait anywhere where there's a disease concern.

1202
01:02:27,000 --> 01:02:29,760
Speaker 3: Baiting is really culturally tied though, and people who grew

1203
01:02:29,800 --> 01:02:33,080
Speaker 3: up baiting, you know, man, they don't want to hunt

1204
01:02:33,080 --> 01:02:34,880
Speaker 3: without it. To the point where I was at a

1205
01:02:34,880 --> 01:02:37,880
Speaker 3: class that we were teaching last fall. We had a

1206
01:02:37,920 --> 01:02:39,760
Speaker 3: guy came in and was talking to me about I'm like,

1207
01:02:39,800 --> 01:02:42,320
Speaker 3: how is your season? Yeah? About so he's going on

1208
01:02:42,400 --> 01:02:45,200
Speaker 3: and on about excited to hunt. He goes, well, yeah,

1209
01:02:45,280 --> 01:02:46,919
Speaker 3: I got off to my stand it was like peak

1210
01:02:47,000 --> 01:02:48,920
Speaker 3: rud or whatever, and got to it. And this was

1211
01:02:48,960 --> 01:02:51,520
Speaker 3: in the state where baiting was legal. And he walked

1212
01:02:51,520 --> 01:02:54,240
Speaker 3: over to his feeder, he said, and it was empty,

1213
01:02:54,640 --> 01:02:57,520
Speaker 3: there was nothing in it. He goes wasted that day,

1214
01:02:57,680 --> 01:03:02,919
Speaker 3: so I went home. There was a zero percent chance

1215
01:03:02,960 --> 01:03:05,720
Speaker 3: to kill a deer if there wasn't bait. So the

1216
01:03:05,760 --> 01:03:09,440
Speaker 3: fact he's in the woods, but it's just I'm not

1217
01:03:09,520 --> 01:03:12,080
Speaker 3: picking on him. This is how he was brought up hunting,

1218
01:03:12,640 --> 01:03:15,480
Speaker 3: so to his mind, that's the only way to hunt. So,

1219
01:03:15,880 --> 01:03:19,320
Speaker 3: you know, I get it. Baiting is really ingrained in

1220
01:03:19,400 --> 01:03:22,680
Speaker 3: places where you know that's up. So it's a big issue.

1221
01:03:22,680 --> 01:03:25,480
Speaker 3: And that's why it's so hard to emotional tie. And

1222
01:03:25,480 --> 01:03:28,960
Speaker 3: the cultural tie is so strong that even as dangerous

1223
01:03:29,040 --> 01:03:32,160
Speaker 3: as disease is in many cases, you know, that can't

1224
01:03:32,160 --> 01:03:36,240
Speaker 3: even override how tightly people are tied to that. So

1225
01:03:36,440 --> 01:03:39,240
Speaker 3: I get that, you know, I understand that part of it,

1226
01:03:39,280 --> 01:03:41,960
Speaker 3: and so it's on us as managers to be able

1227
01:03:42,000 --> 01:03:44,760
Speaker 3: to really show hey, we understand that. But from a

1228
01:03:44,800 --> 01:03:47,720
Speaker 3: disease end, here's why we really need you to not

1229
01:03:47,880 --> 01:03:48,280
Speaker 3: use bait.

1230
01:03:49,320 --> 01:03:52,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, kit, I want to zoom out, zoom

1231
01:03:52,440 --> 01:03:55,960
Speaker 2: out and away from baiting, CWD all these different things.

1232
01:03:56,440 --> 01:04:01,480
Speaker 2: Potentially Imagine I am a deer hunter listening to this

1233
01:04:01,600 --> 01:04:03,720
Speaker 2: podcast right now. I'm on the other side of the

1234
01:04:03,880 --> 01:04:06,520
Speaker 2: of the airwaves. I'm in my car, I'm driving to work,

1235
01:04:06,600 --> 01:04:08,320
Speaker 2: or driving to go for a hike, to go look

1236
01:04:08,360 --> 01:04:10,640
Speaker 2: for sheds, or do some work on the property, or

1237
01:04:10,680 --> 01:04:13,920
Speaker 2: scout some public land. And I'm listening to this podcast

1238
01:04:14,000 --> 01:04:17,080
Speaker 2: because I love deer hunting, and I want to make

1239
01:04:17,120 --> 01:04:18,760
Speaker 2: sure that I can keep deer hunting and have a

1240
01:04:18,840 --> 01:04:21,200
Speaker 2: quality experience into the future. And I want to make

1241
01:04:21,200 --> 01:04:23,400
Speaker 2: sure that my kids can do this kind of stuff.

1242
01:04:23,440 --> 01:04:26,000
Speaker 2: And so I am a deer hunter who cares about

1243
01:04:26,240 --> 01:04:28,200
Speaker 2: the future, and I want to be a part of

1244
01:04:28,240 --> 01:04:31,080
Speaker 2: the solutions that will lead us to a better future

1245
01:04:31,240 --> 01:04:34,760
Speaker 2: for deer and deer hunting. If I'm that kind of person,

1246
01:04:35,560 --> 01:04:40,160
Speaker 2: what are two tangible, actionable things that I can do

1247
01:04:40,560 --> 01:04:44,680
Speaker 2: over the next twelve months to help perpetuate that better

1248
01:04:44,720 --> 01:04:49,120
Speaker 2: future for deer and deer hunting. Two tangible examples.

1249
01:04:49,000 --> 01:04:53,320
Speaker 3: Two tangible things. One, I would say, become an NBA member.

1250
01:04:53,640 --> 01:04:55,640
Speaker 3: You can do so for free, because then we can

1251
01:04:55,720 --> 01:04:58,880
Speaker 3: keep you updated on all this important stuff that's going on.

1252
01:04:59,160 --> 01:05:02,240
Speaker 3: We can share whatever information you want, how to enhance habitat,

1253
01:05:02,560 --> 01:05:05,240
Speaker 3: how to introduce new hunters, how to be involved in policy,

1254
01:05:05,320 --> 01:05:08,400
Speaker 3: whatever it is that will keep you engaged in the

1255
01:05:08,440 --> 01:05:11,720
Speaker 3: game to know, hey, here's really what's going on. That's

1256
01:05:11,800 --> 01:05:14,880
Speaker 3: number one and number two. Go hunting this year and

1257
01:05:14,880 --> 01:05:17,920
Speaker 3: shoot an handle this deer. That will be do so

1258
01:05:18,160 --> 01:05:21,080
Speaker 3: much for our sport. And you're doing your part for

1259
01:05:21,200 --> 01:05:23,800
Speaker 3: deer eat that you can get some of it away

1260
01:05:23,800 --> 01:05:26,160
Speaker 3: to friends or family, whatever you want. But those two

1261
01:05:26,200 --> 01:05:29,640
Speaker 3: things will keep you engaged and will be extremely I

1262
01:05:29,680 --> 01:05:33,040
Speaker 3: allow you to be a very productive hunter, to be

1263
01:05:33,080 --> 01:05:35,920
Speaker 3: doing something very good for the future of our dear hurd.

1264
01:05:37,040 --> 01:05:38,840
Speaker 2: That's not too much to ask, Kip. I think that's

1265
01:05:38,880 --> 01:05:42,640
Speaker 2: a very reasonable ask. I'm on boards. I'm here for it, Kip.

1266
01:05:42,720 --> 01:05:45,360
Speaker 2: I appreciate everything you do and that the National Deer

1267
01:05:45,360 --> 01:05:49,640
Speaker 2: Association does. They can become a member at dear Association

1268
01:05:49,720 --> 01:05:54,880
Speaker 2: dot com. Correct, that's correct, that's correct, excellent. Well, any

1269
01:05:55,000 --> 01:05:57,240
Speaker 2: final words be a Kip or should we wrap this

1270
01:05:57,280 --> 01:05:57,640
Speaker 2: one up?

1271
01:05:58,280 --> 01:05:59,840
Speaker 3: I think we're at a good spot there. So it's

1272
01:06:00,000 --> 01:06:02,320
Speaker 3: great to see you Mark as always, and thank you

1273
01:06:02,400 --> 01:06:06,160
Speaker 3: for everything you do for our wild deer resource and

1274
01:06:06,200 --> 01:06:08,800
Speaker 3: for wild places. Glad to be here today and talk

1275
01:06:08,880 --> 01:06:09,080
Speaker 3: with you.

1276
01:06:09,920 --> 01:06:12,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, always a pleasure, Kip, Thanks so much. Let's do

1277
01:06:12,200 --> 01:06:17,200
Speaker 2: it again next year. Sounds good, all right, and that's

1278
01:06:17,240 --> 01:06:19,040
Speaker 2: going to do it for us today. Thank you for

1279
01:06:19,080 --> 01:06:21,600
Speaker 2: being here. Thanks for being a part of this chat

1280
01:06:21,640 --> 01:06:23,520
Speaker 2: today with Kip Adams. I hope you learned a lot.

1281
01:06:23,760 --> 01:06:26,320
Speaker 2: Be sure to check out the twenty twenty six Dear

1282
01:06:26,440 --> 01:06:29,480
Speaker 2: Report for yourself. If you'd like some more information along

1283
01:06:29,480 --> 01:06:32,160
Speaker 2: these lines, you can find that at the Dear Association

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Speaker 2: dot com website. And until next time, thanks for being

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Speaker 2: here and stay wired to hunt.