WEBVTT - Stephen Merchant 0:00:05.480 --> 0:00:07.840 I'm Stephen Merchant. I was the co creator of the 0:00:07.880 --> 0:00:11.479 British version of the Office, and I'm an executive producer 0:00:11.560 --> 0:00:19.239 on the American version. Hello, dear listeners, and welcome to 0:00:19.360 --> 0:00:24.200 another installment of The Office Deep Dive. I'm your host, 0:00:24.520 --> 0:00:29.560 Brian bam Gartner. Now today I am thrilled to present 0:00:29.680 --> 0:00:33.839 you with a guest from across the pond over in 0:00:34.040 --> 0:00:40.760 jolly old England, Mr Stephen Merchant. Stephen was the co 0:00:41.000 --> 0:00:45.320 creator of the original British version of the Office. He 0:00:45.720 --> 0:00:48.880 along with Ricky Gervais. Now, what the two of them 0:00:48.920 --> 0:00:55.840 did with that show was truly groundbreaking and obviously was 0:00:56.280 --> 0:01:00.960 the inspiration and basis of our show, but they have 0:01:01.080 --> 0:01:05.160 also had a huge influence on comedy in general, both 0:01:05.240 --> 0:01:09.639 here in the US and in the UK, where based 0:01:09.640 --> 0:01:13.760 on their accents I'm guessing they are from. So you know, 0:01:14.200 --> 0:01:16.920 when we were setting up these interviews, I was kind 0:01:16.920 --> 0:01:20.839 of thinking, oh, well, I might get a free trip 0:01:20.920 --> 0:01:22.840 to London out of this, right, I mean, I've I've 0:01:22.840 --> 0:01:25.920 got to meet with Ricky and Stephen in person. Of 0:01:25.959 --> 0:01:31.600 course I gotta go to London. And then a global 0:01:31.640 --> 0:01:36.559 pandemic happened, so sadly that was not going to happen, 0:01:37.440 --> 0:01:41.000 but I feel very lucky that we got to speak 0:01:41.040 --> 0:01:44.680 by phone from our respective homes. I think you guys 0:01:44.720 --> 0:01:48.760 are going to love this one. So, without further ado, 0:01:49.600 --> 0:02:00.840 my tallest friend Stephen Merchant, bub I love it. Bubble 0:02:00.880 --> 0:02:07.760 and squiger, bubble and squeaker cooking every more left over 0:02:07.880 --> 0:02:21.840 from the nat popley. How are you doing? You know, 0:02:22.040 --> 0:02:24.040 I mean as well as anyone can be selected to, 0:02:24.240 --> 0:02:28.800 you know, given the crazy circumstances. Yes, you're you're in London, 0:02:29.880 --> 0:02:33.520 I mean London, and same lockdown rules apply here as 0:02:33.560 --> 0:02:37.840 they apply restaurant and yeah, just you know, porting around 0:02:37.960 --> 0:02:42.040 I mean quite as relaxed fit. I think the demarcation 0:02:42.120 --> 0:02:45.799 between my sleepwear and my day wear is very, very blurred. 0:02:47.880 --> 0:02:50.520 I know the people who get dressed up to go 0:02:50.600 --> 0:02:53.280 to work at home, I don't understand those people. I 0:02:53.360 --> 0:02:58.280 do encourage at least showering before you start working. Really. Yeah, 0:02:58.280 --> 0:03:00.320 that's a good idea and it's a good rule of thub. Yeah, 0:03:00.320 --> 0:03:04.560 it's probably good. Um, how did you know Ricky before 0:03:04.680 --> 0:03:07.480 you guys started the office or or how did that 0:03:07.520 --> 0:03:11.240 come about? Well, so I met Ricky Gervaise at radio 0:03:11.320 --> 0:03:14.480 station here in London. I had wanted to get into radio. 0:03:14.520 --> 0:03:16.880 I always thought that being like a radio DJ seemed 0:03:16.880 --> 0:03:19.480 like a very easy job. You could do maybe two 0:03:19.520 --> 0:03:21.720 hours a day, and then you would give you a 0:03:21.720 --> 0:03:23.640 lot of free time to do other stuff, whether it 0:03:23.680 --> 0:03:26.520 was writing or stand up or whatever other aspirations I had. 0:03:26.560 --> 0:03:28.720 So I was keen to get into radio, and I 0:03:28.800 --> 0:03:31.359 am I was quite young. I was in my early twenties. 0:03:31.400 --> 0:03:34.160 And I sent my resume to various radio stations and 0:03:34.200 --> 0:03:37.480 no one cared. But a new radio station was launching 0:03:37.840 --> 0:03:40.400 in London, and one of the guys who happened to 0:03:40.400 --> 0:03:42.800 read my resume was Ricky, who was just got a 0:03:42.880 --> 0:03:46.000 job there, and he had never had any experience in radio. 0:03:46.040 --> 0:03:47.840 And it's not how sweet talked his way into a 0:03:47.920 --> 0:03:51.280 job there. As get this that the head of speech, 0:03:51.880 --> 0:03:54.000 the head of job title, the head of speech. I mean, 0:03:54.040 --> 0:03:57.400 if you've ever heard Ricky Stringer sentence together, often it's incoherent. 0:03:57.480 --> 0:03:59.720 So I don't know how he got that gig. So 0:04:00.320 --> 0:04:03.880 I he immediately decided he needed an assistance, and so 0:04:04.120 --> 0:04:07.120 I was available and keen and eager, and and so 0:04:07.160 --> 0:04:09.120 he called up for an interview and we hit it off, 0:04:09.280 --> 0:04:12.600 and you know, I started working at this radio station together. Right, 0:04:12.640 --> 0:04:14.720 he needed an assistant, but really he needed someone to 0:04:14.760 --> 0:04:19.480 actually teach him speech and also someone who, as he 0:04:19.600 --> 0:04:22.600 himself admitted during the interview, someone who will do all 0:04:22.600 --> 0:04:25.839 the work for me. Um. And I was kind of eager, 0:04:25.880 --> 0:04:28.400 and I didn't have a job, and I had done 0:04:28.400 --> 0:04:31.120 a little bit of sort of amateur radio and student radio, 0:04:31.240 --> 0:04:33.000 so I had a little bit of an understanding of it. 0:04:33.480 --> 0:04:36.080 And so, you know, we we hit it off very quickly, 0:04:36.200 --> 0:04:40.280 similar sense of humor, and within a short while we 0:04:40.279 --> 0:04:43.480 were sort of actually hosting a radio show together on 0:04:43.480 --> 0:04:46.560 on the air, and just had a good, easy rapport, 0:04:46.760 --> 0:04:49.960 you know, and and a similar sensibility, and and we 0:04:50.040 --> 0:04:52.560 sort of very quickly realized we you know, we had 0:04:52.600 --> 0:04:57.080 sort of a chemistry, right. And then you obviously you 0:04:57.080 --> 0:05:01.000 you started working together. What were the influences for you 0:05:01.160 --> 0:05:06.960 at the time to create the UK office. Well, at 0:05:06.960 --> 0:05:09.239 the time in the UK, there had been a number 0:05:09.279 --> 0:05:12.600 of shows on the BBC and other networks that were 0:05:13.000 --> 0:05:17.240 fly on the wall documentaries about very everyday subjects, like 0:05:17.279 --> 0:05:20.280 there was there was one about a driving school, driving school, yes, 0:05:20.520 --> 0:05:22.400 and it was yeah, and so you know, it was 0:05:22.440 --> 0:05:26.920 just following normal people doing driving lessons and driving tests 0:05:26.960 --> 0:05:30.479 and this kind of a wave of popularity in the UK. 0:05:30.560 --> 0:05:34.160 And so when we did our version, we had those 0:05:34.200 --> 0:05:36.520 sorts of shows in our minds. And one of the 0:05:36.640 --> 0:05:40.400 unusual things about those shows was that often, particularly when 0:05:40.400 --> 0:05:44.000 they returned for like a second season, the people within 0:05:44.080 --> 0:05:48.000 them had sort of become moderate, moderately famous, right, So 0:05:48.040 --> 0:05:51.120 they were those first kind of reality TV stars, and 0:05:51.120 --> 0:05:53.159 and they started to act differently in front of the 0:05:53.200 --> 0:05:55.920 cameras or they were aware of the cameras, and so 0:05:55.960 --> 0:05:58.000 I think that was something that was always informing us, 0:05:58.000 --> 0:06:00.520 you know, the idea that this documentary team were following 0:06:00.560 --> 0:06:03.120 this person in the in the case of David brent 0:06:03.320 --> 0:06:06.159 by Ricky who who was also aware that he was 0:06:06.200 --> 0:06:08.400 being filmed and so therefore was trying to give over 0:06:08.440 --> 0:06:12.760 a version of himself that he thought the world would 0:06:12.839 --> 0:06:15.839 love to see. And of course what he didn't realize 0:06:15.920 --> 0:06:17.600 was they are actually looking at him and finding an 0:06:17.640 --> 0:06:22.520 interesting different reasons than those that he intended, right right, Yeah, 0:06:22.560 --> 0:06:25.040 that's very interesting. I mean, now the skips ahead like 0:06:25.320 --> 0:06:28.640 you know, fifteen years or whatever, but it's very interesting. 0:06:29.120 --> 0:06:31.160 You know. That's one of the things that Greg Daniels 0:06:31.240 --> 0:06:35.679 always said was that for the characters on the American 0:06:35.800 --> 0:06:38.479 version of the Office, if they ever saw themselves, like 0:06:38.520 --> 0:06:42.640 if it was ever released, it would change everything right Well, 0:06:42.680 --> 0:06:45.520 in the in the British version, we did because the 0:06:45.520 --> 0:06:48.920 British version had fewer seasons. We did when we returned 0:06:48.920 --> 0:06:51.400 for some Christmas specials towards the end of the run, 0:06:51.480 --> 0:06:53.960 we did actually play with the idea that the characters 0:06:54.000 --> 0:06:57.360 had seen the documentary it aired and that they had 0:06:57.520 --> 0:07:01.400 various particularly case of Ricky's character had disgruntlements about the 0:07:01.400 --> 0:07:04.159 way they've been portrayed, which is often the complaint you'd 0:07:04.160 --> 0:07:06.560 hear from real reality people, right that you know, and 0:07:06.600 --> 0:07:08.839 they kind of in a certain way they maybe look cool, 0:07:09.600 --> 0:07:12.440 And so we were playing with that idea and I 0:07:12.440 --> 0:07:14.600 guess you had it with sort of MTV is the 0:07:14.640 --> 0:07:17.120 real World? I guess did. It was one of the pioneers. 0:07:17.120 --> 0:07:18.760 And in the UK there was that show Big Brother, 0:07:18.800 --> 0:07:21.080 which I know is still on in various versions all 0:07:21.080 --> 0:07:23.200 over the world, and that just kind of hit the 0:07:23.240 --> 0:07:25.640 airwaves as well. And those people were coming out of 0:07:25.680 --> 0:07:29.560 this this house as reality TV stars, So it was 0:07:29.600 --> 0:07:33.920 a big cultural thing at the time, right. Were there 0:07:34.000 --> 0:07:38.800 specific comedies or other television that sort of informed the 0:07:38.840 --> 0:07:41.360 sensibility or the sense of humor that you were looking 0:07:41.360 --> 0:07:44.120 at at the time. Well, certainly This is Final Tap 0:07:44.320 --> 0:07:48.640 was a big influence, and the Larry Sanders Show was 0:07:48.680 --> 0:07:52.120 something that we often referenced. And there's actually been quite 0:07:52.160 --> 0:07:57.000 a few if you have fake documentaries in movies over 0:07:57.000 --> 0:08:00.679 the years, but there have been few of them on TV. 0:08:00.800 --> 0:08:02.920 It seemed to us and and you know, in a 0:08:03.000 --> 0:08:06.280 way because it sort of originated because I happened to 0:08:06.320 --> 0:08:08.680 get a job at the BBC. I was worried in 0:08:08.760 --> 0:08:10.520 my radio job with Ricky that we might end up 0:08:10.520 --> 0:08:12.560 getting fired rich I think we did. So I had 0:08:12.640 --> 0:08:14.720 jumped ship and I joined the BBC, and while I 0:08:14.760 --> 0:08:17.720 was there, I had a training exercise and they gave 0:08:17.760 --> 0:08:19.600 me a camera team for a day and they said, 0:08:19.920 --> 0:08:21.680 you want to go to film something. And I went 0:08:21.680 --> 0:08:23.640 off and went to Ricky and I said, let's film something. 0:08:23.960 --> 0:08:26.280 And what we filmed sort of became a prototype of 0:08:26.280 --> 0:08:28.080 the office. And one of the reasons we did that 0:08:28.960 --> 0:08:32.600 in a documentary style was because it was quick and easy. 0:08:32.640 --> 0:08:35.319 You know, it didn't it didn't need to have all 0:08:35.360 --> 0:08:37.320 the kind of polish and refinement that you get on 0:08:37.320 --> 0:08:39.680 a regular TV So in a way we we slightly 0:08:39.720 --> 0:08:43.920 fell into this format through circumstance, but because we pursued that, 0:08:44.000 --> 0:08:47.120 and we became very obsessive about the reality of this 0:08:47.320 --> 0:08:51.200 world and wherever the cameras being. How would the people 0:08:51.320 --> 0:08:52.920 act in front of the camera if they knew it 0:08:52.920 --> 0:08:56.240 was watching them? Would they be honest? Would Tim say 0:08:56.320 --> 0:08:58.640 to Dawn, Jim and Pan would they would they be 0:08:58.720 --> 0:09:00.440 honest with each other about their fee things for one 0:09:00.440 --> 0:09:02.040 of the well, of course not, because the cameras are 0:09:02.040 --> 0:09:04.120 in their face and they don't want to reveal their 0:09:04.160 --> 0:09:07.079 hidden secrets. And so it sort of started becoming its 0:09:07.120 --> 0:09:10.920 own thing, which I think I felt at the time 0:09:11.000 --> 0:09:14.080 quite new on TV. But it wasn't sort of like 0:09:14.120 --> 0:09:16.160 a you know, a grand design. We didn't sort of 0:09:16.400 --> 0:09:18.880 sit there and think what's fresh and new. It just 0:09:19.440 --> 0:09:22.520 all these things kept suggesting themselves to us, because we 0:09:22.520 --> 0:09:26.760 were trying to make you feel as realistic as possible, 0:09:26.800 --> 0:09:29.719 as though you could stumble on the TV network and 0:09:29.800 --> 0:09:31.000 you'd find it and you might think it was a 0:09:31.000 --> 0:09:34.440 real documentary. In fact, funny enough, after the first episode aired, 0:09:34.920 --> 0:09:37.440 I was on a train and obviously people had no idea. 0:09:37.440 --> 0:09:39.600 Who I was. I was just a writer. And these 0:09:39.640 --> 0:09:41.360 two women were talking on the train and I was 0:09:41.360 --> 0:09:44.360 sat next to them, and they said. One of them said, 0:09:44.440 --> 0:09:46.400 or did you see that documentary on TV last night 0:09:46.400 --> 0:09:49.080 about this crazy guy in this office? It was hilarious, 0:09:49.120 --> 0:09:51.120 And the other woman said, well, no, I think I 0:09:51.120 --> 0:09:54.800 think that was a new comedy. And the first woman said, oh, well, 0:09:54.800 --> 0:09:59.680 it wasn't very funny. Then I didn't understand. But but 0:09:59.720 --> 0:10:01.760 what were interesting was that she had been fooled for 0:10:01.800 --> 0:10:03.680 a second into thinking it was the real thing, which 0:10:03.880 --> 0:10:07.080 was the biggest compliment that we could we could hope for, right, 0:10:07.240 --> 0:10:10.040 I mean, I remember hearing that a lot over here. 0:10:10.320 --> 0:10:13.920 Did how was it received early on? I think it 0:10:14.000 --> 0:10:18.559 was sort of had very low viewership initially. I think 0:10:18.559 --> 0:10:22.199 there's been some good critical notices here and there, but 0:10:22.240 --> 0:10:23.760 no one was really watching. I think it went on 0:10:23.800 --> 0:10:26.560 in the summer, which is not a prime TV time 0:10:26.600 --> 0:10:28.920 in the UK. And I remember they had done it. 0:10:29.080 --> 0:10:30.760 We found this out many years later, but they had 0:10:30.800 --> 0:10:34.120 done a test screening for the general public and it 0:10:34.200 --> 0:10:37.760 had got the lowest test score ever. The only thing 0:10:37.840 --> 0:10:40.520 that beat him, that got the lowest test score was 0:10:40.600 --> 0:10:45.920 women's lawn bowls, the very specific game played by I 0:10:45.960 --> 0:10:48.200 guess women in the UK. They roll balls along the 0:10:48.280 --> 0:10:50.360 lawn and that was the only thing that I didn't 0:10:50.360 --> 0:10:53.000 even though that was on TV. But it scored lower 0:10:53.440 --> 0:10:56.840 in the Office. And yet what happened was it just 0:10:56.880 --> 0:10:59.400 started to pick up steam. It got word of mouth 0:11:00.000 --> 0:11:03.720 recommendations from people, It started to win some awards. It 0:11:03.880 --> 0:11:06.400 was rerun in the in the winter, and more people 0:11:06.440 --> 0:11:09.160 started watching it. And then there was the moment in 0:11:09.200 --> 0:11:11.680 time when DVDs were really big. I would started buying 0:11:11.720 --> 0:11:14.480 DVD players, and so I think that it started selling 0:11:14.480 --> 0:11:16.440 a lot of DVDs because I think people were like, oh, 0:11:16.480 --> 0:11:18.880 I can buy that guy I know in the office 0:11:18.960 --> 0:11:22.720 that show called The Office. And so solely we sold 0:11:22.760 --> 0:11:24.680 so many DVDs because it was called The Office and 0:11:24.720 --> 0:11:26.480 people have a lot of work colleagues they need to 0:11:26.480 --> 0:11:30.480 buy gifts for. It's a and then it and then 0:11:30.520 --> 0:11:32.600 it just became a kind of here in the UK. 0:11:32.720 --> 0:11:35.640 It became a little mini phenomenon. Yes, well in the 0:11:35.679 --> 0:11:39.319 States too, we were getting I remember there were DVDs 0:11:39.400 --> 0:11:42.640 coming over, but the DVDs in the UK were different 0:11:42.640 --> 0:11:44.520 than so you had to make sure you've got an 0:11:44.559 --> 0:11:47.880 America one that would play an American player, right, Yes, 0:11:47.960 --> 0:11:50.240 of course, yes, my sister had an early one who 0:11:50.280 --> 0:11:53.400 was over there. But yeah, I, um, did you think 0:11:54.160 --> 0:11:57.320 that adapting the show when you started to first hear 0:11:57.400 --> 0:12:01.040 about this guy, Ben Silverman be wanting to adapt it 0:12:01.160 --> 0:12:02.680 for the U S, did you think that was a 0:12:02.720 --> 0:12:07.800 good idea? Well, I remember, Ricky, I was. We must 0:12:07.800 --> 0:12:10.040 have been editing something, because Ricky I remember, came in 0:12:10.040 --> 0:12:11.520 the editing for you said, I just ran into this 0:12:11.520 --> 0:12:13.640 guy called Ben Silverman or Ben Silman to track him 0:12:13.640 --> 0:12:16.319 down and called him and he had had this initial 0:12:16.679 --> 0:12:19.679 meeting about doing a version for the United States. And 0:12:20.400 --> 0:12:24.160 I remember staying at the time, oh, well, that would 0:12:24.160 --> 0:12:26.760 be great, but the chances of that working are very slim. 0:12:26.840 --> 0:12:29.120 I when I was a kid, I was a real 0:12:29.240 --> 0:12:32.440 fan of TV and Pomin read a lot about it, 0:12:32.480 --> 0:12:34.360 and I knew a lot about American comedy, and I 0:12:34.440 --> 0:12:37.680 knew that they had tried to adapt very successful British 0:12:37.720 --> 0:12:41.360 shows for America and many of them had failed for 0:12:41.440 --> 0:12:44.360 one reason or another. And so I was aware that 0:12:44.600 --> 0:12:46.840 the success rate was very low, and that and that 0:12:46.880 --> 0:12:50.040 we shouldn't get too excited about this as a sort 0:12:50.040 --> 0:12:53.320 of potential next phase of our careers because I just 0:12:53.440 --> 0:12:55.600 I just thought, well, it's probably not going to work out, 0:12:55.920 --> 0:12:58.080 even with the best will in the world, So why 0:12:58.120 --> 0:12:59.679 not let's let them do it? And you know, but 0:13:00.040 --> 0:13:01.800 to them and it would be fun. And I was 0:13:01.840 --> 0:13:04.360 a big fan and I'm a big fan of American comedy, 0:13:04.360 --> 0:13:06.760 and you know, certainly a big influence on us was 0:13:06.800 --> 0:13:09.160 like Cheers and the idea of you know, the Cheers 0:13:09.200 --> 0:13:12.000 bar is this kind of surrogut family, which is very 0:13:12.080 --> 0:13:14.600 much what the Office is, I guess in anyways, And 0:13:14.679 --> 0:13:17.800 so we were excited about the idea of it being 0:13:17.920 --> 0:13:20.559 on American TV and having an American version, but but 0:13:20.679 --> 0:13:23.520 also very realistic that it seemed unlikely it would it 0:13:23.559 --> 0:13:50.640 would succeed for whatever reason. Yes, so Ben Silverman approaches 0:13:50.679 --> 0:13:55.080 you about adapting the series for America. Do you remember 0:13:55.080 --> 0:13:57.319 the first time you met Ben. I don't think anyone 0:13:57.360 --> 0:13:59.439 can forget the first time they meet Ben Silverman. He 0:13:59.520 --> 0:14:00.959 is a sort of as you well know, a kind 0:14:00.960 --> 0:14:04.920 of force of nature. Um. Just yeah, it's like a 0:14:04.960 --> 0:14:09.920 man who has drunk, you know, fifteen espresso's just directly 0:14:09.960 --> 0:14:15.000 before the meeting, just really get himself awake, and he's 0:14:15.080 --> 0:14:18.760 often running, and he's whenever they do movies about Hollywood, 0:14:18.800 --> 0:14:20.800 they always have like a producer character. It was like 0:14:20.840 --> 0:14:23.280 a tok about a minute, you know what, we're gonna 0:14:23.280 --> 0:14:25.280 make you. We're gonna make you start kid, and he's 0:14:25.400 --> 0:14:26.960 kind of like that. You know, Benny is like the 0:14:27.040 --> 0:14:30.880 kind of Hollywood producer cliche that you see in movies. 0:14:30.880 --> 0:14:35.080 And yet listen, it works. You know, he's dynamic and 0:14:35.120 --> 0:14:39.120 he and he got the thing moving and it seemed like, 0:14:39.240 --> 0:14:41.960 you know, before we knew it, we were having meetings 0:14:41.960 --> 0:14:45.680 in the US, sitting down to talk with potential show 0:14:45.760 --> 0:14:49.960 runners and and we were off to the races. Did 0:14:50.000 --> 0:14:53.640 you so you know, you you trust this guy Ben, 0:14:53.840 --> 0:14:56.640 and you meet Greg and you feel like he understands it. 0:14:56.720 --> 0:14:59.520 Was there a certain point that you thought that it 0:14:59.680 --> 0:15:02.640 might work for American audiences or were you still being 0:15:02.720 --> 0:15:07.480 sort of realists and skeptical that it would translate. You know, 0:15:07.520 --> 0:15:09.920 we were very infused by Greg and Gregg came to 0:15:10.000 --> 0:15:11.800 London and they sat with us and we kind of 0:15:11.840 --> 0:15:15.240 dissected the British version and we tried to explain, you 0:15:15.240 --> 0:15:18.840 know what, you know, the kind of socio economics standing 0:15:18.840 --> 0:15:20.360 of all the characters. So he could kind of get 0:15:20.360 --> 0:15:23.520 his head around where they would be equivalent in the US. 0:15:24.200 --> 0:15:26.840 Where would you know, scranted replace his slough and all 0:15:26.880 --> 0:15:29.240 these other things which he had to kind of understand. 0:15:29.280 --> 0:15:31.440 And he was very sensitive and thoughtful about that stuff, 0:15:31.440 --> 0:15:34.160 which is exciting for us. But then it was obviously 0:15:34.200 --> 0:15:36.440 then he's casting and could they find the guy that 0:15:36.480 --> 0:15:39.440 would replace Ricky? And so I just remember each step 0:15:39.440 --> 0:15:42.920 of the way we were kind of not suspicious or nervous, 0:15:42.920 --> 0:15:46.400 but just thinking, oh, they will probably evaporate, right well, 0:15:46.440 --> 0:15:49.800 and the show struggled, you know, early on for you know, 0:15:49.840 --> 0:15:53.600 people didn't get it, and it was so unlike anything 0:15:53.640 --> 0:15:57.280 that was on television and in America we didn't have 0:15:57.560 --> 0:16:00.880 also the shows that you were sort of directly mocking, 0:16:01.040 --> 0:16:05.320 right there was like, you know, MTV is the real world, right, 0:16:05.400 --> 0:16:08.240 but those were all about sexy young people. There wasn't 0:16:08.320 --> 0:16:11.120 Driving School or shows like that that that you know, 0:16:11.120 --> 0:16:14.120 it was sort of directly mocking. And I heard a 0:16:14.160 --> 0:16:17.040 story as well that you know, when we came back 0:16:17.080 --> 0:16:18.880 and we were going to come back for a season 0:16:18.880 --> 0:16:22.880 two and they only offered six more episodes, and it 0:16:23.000 --> 0:16:26.400 certainly looked like they were you know, because Steve had 0:16:26.400 --> 0:16:28.280 four year old version. They were sort of keeping us 0:16:28.280 --> 0:16:30.520 on life support because they didn't want to look like idiots, 0:16:30.600 --> 0:16:34.680 but they still didn't believe in it. That NBC said, Okay, 0:16:34.720 --> 0:16:37.480 you can do six, but you have to cut the 0:16:37.480 --> 0:16:42.240 budget and everybody has to take less. And Ben went 0:16:42.480 --> 0:16:44.760 first to you and Ricky and thought you guys would 0:16:44.760 --> 0:16:47.120 say like, no, like this is this was the deal 0:16:47.160 --> 0:16:51.080 that we made, but that you, Greg, Ricky, everybody said no, 0:16:51.240 --> 0:16:53.200 let's give it a shot. I mean, do you remember 0:16:53.800 --> 0:16:56.200 was that just based on you wanting the show to 0:16:56.240 --> 0:16:58.920 go on, or did you at that point think that 0:16:58.960 --> 0:17:03.320 there was something that was brewing there. I definitely remember 0:17:03.400 --> 0:17:07.359 thinking I was very pleased with what Greg and everyone 0:17:07.400 --> 0:17:09.680 had done in that first season, but I do remember 0:17:09.760 --> 0:17:12.920 thinking that I actually wanted them to break away from 0:17:12.920 --> 0:17:15.040 the British version more. I still felt there was a 0:17:15.040 --> 0:17:17.679 little bit of a feeling of like clinging onto some 0:17:17.760 --> 0:17:19.919 of the vibes or elements, or or trying to be 0:17:19.960 --> 0:17:22.200 a little too faithful to us. And what was exciting 0:17:22.280 --> 0:17:24.720 was the more that the show was moving away from 0:17:24.840 --> 0:17:27.359 the British version. And I think whether it was a 0:17:27.359 --> 0:17:29.800 conversation with greg Or, but I suddenly felt that that 0:17:29.880 --> 0:17:32.760 was a plan that was starting to brew for the 0:17:32.840 --> 0:17:34.840 second season, and I was very keen, and I know 0:17:34.960 --> 0:17:36.960 Rickie was just to kind of you know, we we 0:17:37.080 --> 0:17:39.000 liked everybody and we wanted to show to do well 0:17:39.040 --> 0:17:41.480 and whatever we could do to help and keep it 0:17:41.520 --> 0:17:43.520 on the air was important to us. I mean. The 0:17:43.560 --> 0:17:45.320 funny thing for us, you remember, is that we were 0:17:45.320 --> 0:17:48.960 here in the UK, so this was before streaming services, 0:17:48.960 --> 0:17:51.920 so we only saw the episodes on like DVDs which 0:17:51.960 --> 0:17:54.440 they had to mail over to us, and we would 0:17:54.440 --> 0:17:56.119 watch them. And you know, what was weird to me 0:17:56.240 --> 0:17:59.440 was that when we did our version, we were so 0:18:00.000 --> 0:18:02.720 old that obviously we never got to kind of enjoy 0:18:02.760 --> 0:18:05.479 it as a viewer, you know, we only ever enjoyed it, 0:18:05.920 --> 0:18:08.439 you know, in little fragments here and there. When we 0:18:08.520 --> 0:18:10.800 got sent these DVDs from America, it was like someone 0:18:10.840 --> 0:18:14.320 had designed this show that was like on our prototype, 0:18:14.320 --> 0:18:16.280 and we were getting to enjoy it as fans, you know. 0:18:16.320 --> 0:18:18.320 We would just sit there and laugh and enjoy it, 0:18:18.359 --> 0:18:20.480 and and it was weird. It was like some kind 0:18:20.480 --> 0:18:24.080 of weird competition where you write in, hey, would you 0:18:24.119 --> 0:18:26.680 make a show about this? And they sort of mail 0:18:26.720 --> 0:18:30.400 into you every week, you know, and so we were 0:18:30.480 --> 0:18:32.560 very keen just as fans, we were keen to have 0:18:32.640 --> 0:18:35.159 it keep on the air. So you liked it? You 0:18:35.280 --> 0:18:39.199 like you like it? Yeah? Oh yeah, yeah absolutely. I 0:18:39.200 --> 0:18:42.560 thought everyone was great and honestly I was, I was 0:18:42.600 --> 0:18:45.720 all in. Yeah. In season two, you know, one of 0:18:45.720 --> 0:18:49.119 the things that you know was done. You talk about 0:18:49.640 --> 0:18:52.119 veering from the British show, and I think a major 0:18:52.200 --> 0:18:55.440 thing that happened there in season two was the decision 0:18:55.520 --> 0:19:00.199 to soften Michael Scott, right, to not make him exactly 0:19:00.240 --> 0:19:02.399 like David Brynn. I mean, David Brent to me is 0:19:02.440 --> 0:19:05.560 a genius character that had a shelf life right like 0:19:05.600 --> 0:19:08.000 after twelve episodes, it's hard for him to still have 0:19:08.040 --> 0:19:11.520 a job, right and to have the show, to have 0:19:11.640 --> 0:19:15.399 the show continue, you know, softening and bringing out more 0:19:15.440 --> 0:19:17.639 of the humanity of Michael Scott. Were you in support 0:19:17.680 --> 0:19:22.600 of that? Well? It's funny because I think again it 0:19:22.640 --> 0:19:25.440 goes to what the traditions are in our two countries 0:19:25.440 --> 0:19:28.480 in terms of comedy, and I think for years in 0:19:28.560 --> 0:19:31.560 the U came in particular, there's been this long tradition 0:19:31.720 --> 0:19:36.679 of TV comedies celebrating losers and sort of laughing and 0:19:36.720 --> 0:19:41.119 losers often losers who have a slightly malevolent quality or 0:19:41.119 --> 0:19:43.840 a selfishness to them. So I think back to in 0:19:43.880 --> 0:19:46.000 the in the sixties, but the biggest TV star in 0:19:46.000 --> 0:19:48.920 the UK was a guy called Tony Hancock whose character 0:19:49.160 --> 0:19:52.320 was a kind of sort of failed actor who was 0:19:52.440 --> 0:19:56.359 kind of snobbish and would happily, you know, screw someone 0:19:56.400 --> 0:19:58.240 over for an opportunity, and that was that was a 0:19:58.280 --> 0:20:00.639 show that cleared the streets when was on, you know. 0:20:01.160 --> 0:20:04.040 And then John Kesar's Basil Faulty in the seventies, the 0:20:04.160 --> 0:20:07.840 kind of sort of obnoxious hotel manager. So there's a 0:20:07.880 --> 0:20:11.400 long tradition in the UK of slightly unlikable leading characters 0:20:11.400 --> 0:20:14.760 in comedy, a plus combined with the fact that somehow 0:20:14.800 --> 0:20:19.280 in the UK we tolerated that bitter sweetness, that melancholy. 0:20:19.440 --> 0:20:20.919 I mean, there was a show on that was a 0:20:20.920 --> 0:20:22.560 big show in the UK when I was growing up 0:20:22.560 --> 0:20:24.800 called Whatever Happened to the Likely Lads? And it had 0:20:24.800 --> 0:20:27.680 a theme tong and the opening lyrics of the theme 0:20:28.200 --> 0:20:31.879 song of this this is a sitcom, Remember where was all? 0:20:32.040 --> 0:20:35.000 What happened to you, Whatever happened to Me? What became 0:20:35.040 --> 0:20:37.040 of the people? We used to be. I mean, it 0:20:37.119 --> 0:20:42.960 was all about failed opportunities and and mischances and lives, 0:20:43.080 --> 0:20:44.760 a life that could have been lived and thereone. So 0:20:45.040 --> 0:20:47.439 there's that sort of tradition in the UK, and I 0:20:47.480 --> 0:20:50.679 think traditionally in the US that has not been so 0:20:50.760 --> 0:20:52.800 much the case in network TV. And when you think 0:20:52.800 --> 0:20:55.560 of Friends, the Friends theme to for instances very different. 0:20:56.000 --> 0:20:57.520 You know, I'll be there for you, You'll be there 0:20:57.520 --> 0:21:00.720 from so so I think it seems sensible to me 0:21:00.840 --> 0:21:03.520 that if they could rewire the Office at all, it 0:21:03.560 --> 0:21:07.040 would just be to maybe downplay some of those more 0:21:08.040 --> 0:21:11.639 sort of syndical sour British elements and just start up 0:21:11.680 --> 0:21:16.080 a bit more of that American can do right optimism, 0:21:16.080 --> 0:21:19.320 which I felt they did without I think, losing the 0:21:19.359 --> 0:21:23.600 fundamental DNA of what makes the show work right. Mike 0:21:23.640 --> 0:21:28.159 Shure specifically talked about Greg mentioning the show in season 0:21:28.160 --> 0:21:31.320 two could exist exactly the same as as in the 0:21:31.359 --> 0:21:34.760 season one. The episode could be exactly the same, but 0:21:34.960 --> 0:21:39.679 just at you know, of just a little bit of hope, 0:21:39.880 --> 0:21:43.960