WEBVTT - Bill Schnee 0:00:08.560 --> 0:00:12.440 Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Sets podcast. 0:00:13.039 --> 0:00:18.239 My guest today is a producer engineer, Billie Bill. What's 0:00:18.320 --> 0:00:19.680 keeping you busy these days? 0:00:20.880 --> 0:00:23.799 Well, basically the same old thing, maybe not quite in 0:00:23.840 --> 0:00:26.840 the same way and certainly not quite as much, but 0:00:27.520 --> 0:00:32.280 you know, especially mixing, which is my favorite aspect of engineering. 0:00:33.400 --> 0:00:35.400 So what kind of stuff you're mixing these days? 0:00:36.720 --> 0:00:40.440 Well, I've just done the singles for Steve Percaro from Toto, 0:00:40.600 --> 0:00:43.239 which he's got with a record company. They seem to 0:00:43.240 --> 0:00:47.280 be promoting it pretty well, whatever that means on social 0:00:47.400 --> 0:00:51.440 media at least. It's definitely not the same old game. 0:00:51.720 --> 0:00:55.360 But and there's a new band, I'll call it a band. 0:00:55.440 --> 0:00:58.360 It's with a guy out of Chicago named Joe Vanna 0:00:59.040 --> 0:01:03.480 and he's got quite a few Well Michael o'martian, you know, 0:01:03.640 --> 0:01:07.320 the great producer, he and I started together in nineteen 0:01:07.360 --> 0:01:11.480 sixty seven or eight. He's in the band. And I 0:01:11.520 --> 0:01:14.560 love that they're calling it a band, considering no two 0:01:14.600 --> 0:01:16.759 people ever played in the same room at the same time. 0:01:17.480 --> 0:01:21.800 But I'm getting ready to start that mixing that and 0:01:21.840 --> 0:01:25.280 they've sent me the rough mixes and it's really good. 0:01:26.200 --> 0:01:28.240 So what's the appeal of mixing for you. 0:01:30.480 --> 0:01:35.000 Just you know, it's what started it off. I suppose 0:01:35.040 --> 0:01:41.120 once I decided to engineer the creative aspect of putting 0:01:41.160 --> 0:01:43.440 the elements together and making it come out of a 0:01:43.480 --> 0:01:47.200 couple of speakers so that it moves me, which hopefully 0:01:47.280 --> 0:01:49.040 will move the listeners. 0:01:50.320 --> 0:01:53.000 Now, are you still working out of your own studio? 0:01:53.080 --> 0:01:54.160 You're working out of your home. 0:01:56.400 --> 0:01:59.320 Well, if you can't beat them, you join them. And 0:01:59.440 --> 0:02:01.560 you know, when I had a big studio in Los 0:02:01.600 --> 0:02:05.040 Angeles for thirty five years, and when people started building 0:02:05.080 --> 0:02:08.840 studios in La not a lot of them. This is 0:02:08.840 --> 0:02:10.960 back when it cost you know, at least one hundred 0:02:10.960 --> 0:02:13.280 and fifty two hundred thousand to build a minimal studio. 0:02:13.960 --> 0:02:18.240 You know, before the digital revolution, there was all the 0:02:18.280 --> 0:02:22.160 studios got together to get those outlawed because they were 0:02:23.160 --> 0:02:30.240 messing with whatever they are so so and I remember 0:02:30.280 --> 0:02:33.360 at the time thinking, you know, I know it's in 0:02:33.400 --> 0:02:35.280 the house, but I kind of like getting up in 0:02:35.320 --> 0:02:38.200 the morning, going to work at the studio and then 0:02:38.240 --> 0:02:40.919 coming home at night and going to bed. Now, I 0:02:41.040 --> 0:02:43.120 kind of like getting up at six thirty and mixing 0:02:43.160 --> 0:02:43.880 in my underwear. 0:02:45.400 --> 0:02:47.639 So what'd you do with your studio that you owned. 0:02:50.160 --> 0:02:55.520 I basically I sold it basically to the studio next door. 0:02:56.320 --> 0:02:57.880 And all the equipment in there. 0:02:58.000 --> 0:03:02.440 What happened to that. I took it with me and 0:03:02.560 --> 0:03:06.760 I've been parsing it off, so to speak. I've been 0:03:06.760 --> 0:03:10.280 selling it off as I don't need it anymore. But 0:03:10.320 --> 0:03:13.720 there was a lot of very ESO custom equipment. It 0:03:13.800 --> 0:03:16.480 was a very unique studio in that regard, including the 0:03:16.480 --> 0:03:21.760 console that we built from scratch and those we are 0:03:21.800 --> 0:03:26.640 now have a gentleman here that has a company. He 0:03:26.680 --> 0:03:30.120 builds pre amps and microphones and so on, and he's 0:03:30.160 --> 0:03:32.880 actually taking my pre amps two at a time and 0:03:33.040 --> 0:03:37.040 putting him in a package and we're repurposing those that 0:03:37.080 --> 0:03:39.720 way and all of the I had a huge collection 0:03:39.800 --> 0:03:44.360 of vintage microphones and I've been selling those off as well. 0:03:45.400 --> 0:03:47.600 Okay, so what do you actually have in your house 0:03:47.640 --> 0:03:49.960 and how much of that is from your old studio. 0:03:51.000 --> 0:03:55.840 What I have in the house. So when digital came out, 0:03:55.880 --> 0:03:59.440 I absolutely hated it. I didn't think sixteen forty four 0:03:59.440 --> 0:04:01.520 to one on the technical side, I didn't think that 0:04:01.600 --> 0:04:04.560 sounded very good, and I still don't. But I've done 0:04:04.560 --> 0:04:07.040 everything I can over the year. Of course, we've gotten better. 0:04:07.080 --> 0:04:11.080 We've learned a lot about filtering and sampling rates and 0:04:11.200 --> 0:04:14.160 all different things, so that we're in much better shape 0:04:14.160 --> 0:04:17.680 with digital than we were in the early eighties. But 0:04:17.920 --> 0:04:22.799 I did have in my studio a very technical homemade 0:04:22.880 --> 0:04:26.080 so to speak, from a guy named Josh Flori at 0:04:26.160 --> 0:04:30.680 JCF Audio. So what I have now is I come 0:04:30.680 --> 0:04:37.080 out of pro tools twenty four wide, and those go 0:04:37.240 --> 0:04:43.080 into sixteen custom made by Josh, sixteen transistor DTA a's 0:04:43.400 --> 0:04:48.919 and eight tube DTA a's and then that gets summed 0:04:49.160 --> 0:04:53.359 in a very simple analog summer with no amplifiers and 0:04:53.480 --> 0:04:56.000 goes into a patch pay where I can put any 0:04:56.000 --> 0:05:01.360 one of one, two, three, four, five, seven, seven analogue compressors. 0:05:02.360 --> 0:05:04.800 So I keep as much at the point between the tube, 0:05:04.960 --> 0:05:09.000 especially the tube DTA a and and the tube compressors. 0:05:09.040 --> 0:05:11.520 I keep as much of the old school as I can. 0:05:12.440 --> 0:05:17.840 Okay, why are some transistors and why are some tubes 0:05:17.960 --> 0:05:18.680 in the d DA A. 0:05:21.720 --> 0:05:26.000 I learned early on in my career that there's a 0:05:26.080 --> 0:05:30.560 special there's a special bond between tubes and transducers, either 0:05:30.640 --> 0:05:37.800 microphones or speakers and in and uh so when it 0:05:37.839 --> 0:05:43.919 came to the digital life, we live in now, I 0:05:44.000 --> 0:05:47.400 thought that having a tube DTA A would give me 0:05:47.520 --> 0:05:51.719 something and which it really does. It's a you know, 0:05:51.800 --> 0:05:54.680 it's a it's a much warmer, richer even though the 0:05:54.680 --> 0:05:57.839 frequency response is essentially the same as the transistor ones, 0:05:58.240 --> 0:06:03.160 it's a warmer, richer sound. So that works great on 0:06:03.240 --> 0:06:07.480 anything acoustic, anything you know, from a piano to voices 0:06:07.960 --> 0:06:11.000 and even electric bass, which tubes do a nice thing 0:06:11.040 --> 0:06:15.000 on base. So that's the basic reason. 0:06:16.240 --> 0:06:18.800 So if you have tubes and transistors, when would you 0:06:18.920 --> 0:06:19.880 use transistors. 0:06:21.320 --> 0:06:25.440 Well, the transistors in general, transistors are faster, meaning they 0:06:25.960 --> 0:06:28.720 you know, the sound is quicker. They don't. Tubes react 0:06:28.760 --> 0:06:32.480 a little slower. Tubes are a little rich, definitely a 0:06:32.520 --> 0:06:37.520 little richer, but the transistors are definitely faster. And so 0:06:38.680 --> 0:06:42.239 in fact, in fact, I'll remember I did a short 0:06:42.279 --> 0:06:46.720 stint at CBS as an engineer, and I noticed that 0:06:46.800 --> 0:06:50.799 the old school engineers that were all fifteen years younger 0:06:50.800 --> 0:06:53.560 than I am. Now, all the old school engineers were 0:06:53.640 --> 0:06:57.440 using that a tube mic called the U sixty seven, 0:06:57.880 --> 0:07:00.799 and young three young guys were using the eighty seven. 0:07:00.920 --> 0:07:03.200 The sixty seven was two and the eighty seven was 0:07:03.240 --> 0:07:06.440 the new transistor one. And I asked the older engineers, 0:07:06.440 --> 0:07:08.960 why do you guys use that. He said, well, Neiman 0:07:09.080 --> 0:07:11.240 came over from Germany with the eighty seven. They were 0:07:11.320 --> 0:07:14.880 so excited for us to try it, and they left 0:07:14.920 --> 0:07:17.120 it with us, and then they asked for a report 0:07:17.240 --> 0:07:20.960 a month later, and we told them. They called us 0:07:20.960 --> 0:07:23.480 and we told them, you know, we just liked the 0:07:23.520 --> 0:07:25.880 sound of the sixty seven better, and they said, what 0:07:25.880 --> 0:07:28.160 do you mean. He said, well, it's just kind of 0:07:28.800 --> 0:07:31.800 the eighty seven was kind of harsh. And they said, no, no, 0:07:31.840 --> 0:07:35.320 you don't understand. Transistors are very very fast. You're hearing 0:07:35.360 --> 0:07:38.480 for the first time what's really on the floor. And 0:07:38.520 --> 0:07:43.000 whereas they were correct that the transistors were faster, I 0:07:43.040 --> 0:07:45.640 don't know that anything. Do you really hear what's on 0:07:45.680 --> 0:07:48.200 the floor. It's really a bat matter of whatever sounds, 0:07:48.280 --> 0:07:50.920 you know, whatever's euphonic to the guy doing the work. 0:07:51.520 --> 0:07:54.000 And so they said, okay, but we're going to continue 0:07:54.040 --> 0:07:55.520 to use the old one because we just think it 0:07:55.560 --> 0:07:56.160 sounds better. 0:07:57.760 --> 0:08:01.920 Okay, you wrote a book, Chairman of the Board, Recording 0:08:01.960 --> 0:08:05.080 the Soundtrack of a Generation. You go in that book 0:08:05.320 --> 0:08:09.720 about using different mics for different situations, some ribbon something. 0:08:09.760 --> 0:08:11.240 Can you tell us a little bit more about that. 0:08:12.680 --> 0:08:14.080 Wow, I didn't know you were going to be so 0:08:14.240 --> 0:08:21.680 tech today. Fun. Well, yeah, there's you know, within the 0:08:21.720 --> 0:08:25.600 basic let's say put it down to three basic types 0:08:25.640 --> 0:08:32.280 of microphones condenser, dynamic, and ribbon and not. You know, 0:08:32.320 --> 0:08:34.440 it's a matter I think as you learn, as an 0:08:34.440 --> 0:08:38.160 engineer learns what the palette can do, the different colors 0:08:38.160 --> 0:08:43.360 that different microphones can do, you try things out, maybe 0:08:43.400 --> 0:08:45.640 what you've seen someone or maybe you try it yourself. 0:08:45.679 --> 0:08:48.120 I did a lot of experimenting my early years myself. 0:08:48.960 --> 0:08:52.520 And nothing's worse than trying something and you can't and 0:08:52.600 --> 0:08:53.960 you're in the middle of a session now and you 0:08:54.000 --> 0:08:57.079 can't change it. But oh that's not as good as 0:08:57.080 --> 0:08:59.640 what I used last week at all. But you don't 0:08:59.679 --> 0:09:03.240 make that mistake again anyway. Within each of the those types, 0:09:03.480 --> 0:09:05.920 you know, there's obviously a lot of different models of 0:09:05.920 --> 0:09:09.200 each of those types, and you just you know, have 0:09:09.280 --> 0:09:12.760 to have to figure what works. There's you know, dynamics 0:09:13.200 --> 0:09:15.320 will take level you can put them in, you know, 0:09:15.360 --> 0:09:20.400 in high level situations and they won't crumble. Condensers, some 0:09:20.440 --> 0:09:23.240 of them, a lot of them, almost most of them 0:09:23.880 --> 0:09:26.320 can't take the same kind of level, but they have 0:09:26.400 --> 0:09:30.200 a more extended frequency response, you hear a wider sound 0:09:30.760 --> 0:09:34.880 from a frequency standpoint. Ribbons are great usually most of 0:09:34.920 --> 0:09:37.720 them are good with level also, and they have a 0:09:37.840 --> 0:09:41.120 unique kind of sound that's tough to describe between those 0:09:41.160 --> 0:09:44.839 other two. You just have to experience, I mean, hear 0:09:44.880 --> 0:09:45.480 it to know it. 0:09:46.280 --> 0:09:49.480 So, before you started selling microphones, how many did you own? 0:09:51.559 --> 0:09:55.320 Oh? I don't even know. I couldn't tell you. I mean, 0:09:55.840 --> 0:09:59.360 if there's any tech people listening, I had nine two, 0:09:59.400 --> 0:10:05.360 fifty one, five and forty nine six and fifties eight, eight, 0:10:05.480 --> 0:10:13.880 fifty four's, ten fifty six's, seven fifty threes in that 0:10:14.920 --> 0:10:19.880 Noman old Noyman range, the fifty range. I am a 0:10:19.960 --> 0:10:23.920 huge fan of them, so it was a pretty big collection. 0:10:25.000 --> 0:10:28.960 Now, another thing you mentioned in your book is you know, 0:10:29.040 --> 0:10:31.200 I read Mike Campbell's book and he's talking about working 0:10:31.320 --> 0:10:35.600 with Jimmy Ivan and Shelley Yakis taking a week to 0:10:35.640 --> 0:10:39.960 get drum sounds. You said that a you worked faster, 0:10:40.200 --> 0:10:44.960 you got drum sounds faster. What was your style different 0:10:45.040 --> 0:10:47.240 in how did you make different from the people who 0:10:47.240 --> 0:10:49.400 were spending so much time or was it just a 0:10:49.400 --> 0:10:53.520 matter of they were on their own journey. 0:10:54.400 --> 0:10:58.920 Well, I came up. The first studio I got a 0:10:59.000 --> 0:11:03.079 job in was a very not a very good studio. 0:11:03.600 --> 0:11:06.040 It had egg cartons on the wall for sound absorption. 0:11:06.240 --> 0:11:09.600 It had one wall between the studio and the control room, 0:11:10.120 --> 0:11:14.320 one piece of glass, one door, and it was just stereo. 0:11:14.880 --> 0:11:18.120 It was only you only had two condenser i'll call 0:11:18.160 --> 0:11:22.440 them professional microphones. And the great news about that was 0:11:22.800 --> 0:11:28.160 you I got to learn mixing immediately. It wasn't a 0:11:28.160 --> 0:11:30.959 matter of starting out like most guys you know in 0:11:31.000 --> 0:11:34.679 the last sixty years have with fifty five years anyway, 0:11:34.960 --> 0:11:38.320 I have with the multi channel you know, tape recorder, 0:11:38.679 --> 0:11:41.280 and then taking as much time as you want to mix. 0:11:41.800 --> 0:11:45.000 So when everything was two track, they're playing, you're mixing, 0:11:45.200 --> 0:11:52.800 and the mix is done. And so what was the question, 0:11:53.000 --> 0:11:57.600 I'm off it. The question is Viking drums? Oh so 0:11:58.200 --> 0:12:04.439 one when I started on my own with the experimentation, 0:12:06.000 --> 0:12:08.680 I had met Glenn Johns who has a very unique 0:12:10.240 --> 0:12:14.600 micing for drums with basically three mics, one on the kick, 0:12:14.679 --> 0:12:17.640 one overhead directly overhead, and one off to the side 0:12:17.840 --> 0:12:20.840 equal distant from the overhead to the snare, so that 0:12:20.880 --> 0:12:22.760 when you put them left and right the snare is 0:12:22.800 --> 0:12:26.080 in the center, and I loved the size that he 0:12:26.160 --> 0:12:28.680 would get, but I didn't like the sound of the 0:12:28.720 --> 0:12:33.600 snare without a snare mic. So I started somewhere in there, 0:12:34.320 --> 0:12:37.240 and I was people that trained me were all the 0:12:37.400 --> 0:12:41.280 old school people that you know it starts, you know, 0:12:41.320 --> 0:12:44.520 because when everything was stereo, there wasn't all the equipment 0:12:44.640 --> 0:12:47.679 and all the equalizers. You know, it was basically a 0:12:48.120 --> 0:12:51.920 professional console had just tone controls, a top end boost 0:12:52.080 --> 0:12:55.000 or cut, and a blow end ten thousand cycle, one 0:12:55.080 --> 0:12:58.920 hundred cycle. So the idea was you picked the microphone 0:12:58.960 --> 0:13:02.200 for the sound. You learned about mike placement because that 0:13:02.240 --> 0:13:06.480 can change the sound dramatically. You put, if you don't 0:13:06.520 --> 0:13:08.560 like the sound, you change the position of the mic, 0:13:08.720 --> 0:13:13.400 or you change the mic or both. And that, you know, 0:13:13.559 --> 0:13:16.040 that's what you had to you had to rely on 0:13:16.120 --> 0:13:20.079 to get the sound that you wanted. So then came 0:13:20.120 --> 0:13:24.400 Elton John and I loved him as an artist, and 0:13:24.480 --> 0:13:26.840 there was no question when I heard the early drum 0:13:26.920 --> 0:13:30.360 sounds that were done in a studio called Trident by 0:13:30.880 --> 0:13:35.040 some very good engineers that they were using a lot 0:13:35.080 --> 0:13:37.360 of EQ a lot of microphones. There was a mic 0:13:37.440 --> 0:13:40.760 on every drum and a lot of equalization. You could 0:13:40.760 --> 0:13:43.720 hear it. My joke at the time was the snare 0:13:43.760 --> 0:13:46.680 sound on some of those records was it wasn't the 0:13:46.720 --> 0:13:48.560 sound of a stick hitting a snare, it was the 0:13:48.600 --> 0:13:51.559 sound of a stick hitting an equalizer. Because that's what 0:13:51.640 --> 0:13:55.319 I heard. That's what I heard first, was that equalization. 0:13:56.000 --> 0:13:58.680 But there was something about all that I really liked, 0:13:58.840 --> 0:14:02.920 and so to incorporate that into what I was doing 0:14:03.520 --> 0:14:06.920 and came up with my own version of it. As 0:14:06.960 --> 0:14:11.680 to the speed that you're talking about some people, yeah, 0:14:12.040 --> 0:14:14.960 because I came up in an era where you know, 0:14:15.040 --> 0:14:19.040 everything was live or even went to four track mostly live. 0:14:19.760 --> 0:14:24.880 You know, you had to move fast. Now obviously things 0:14:24.960 --> 0:14:27.240 changed and you had a lot more multi track, and 0:14:27.280 --> 0:14:29.800 you had bigger budget, big budgets than you could take 0:14:29.840 --> 0:14:35.200 more time. But I can't do it. I get bored 0:14:35.640 --> 0:14:38.920 very easily. I like my creativity works when I'm moving fast. 0:14:39.000 --> 0:14:42.320 I move fast and everything, and so I wanted to 0:14:42.320 --> 0:14:45.200 to I couldn't. Let's put it this way, I couldn't 0:14:45.200 --> 0:14:48.040 do what some of these people do, spending you know, 0:14:48.160 --> 0:14:50.800 all kinds of time on it. I mean I trained 0:14:50.800 --> 0:14:55.080 a guy initially named Jack Puig who's gone on to 0:14:55.320 --> 0:14:58.680 have a big career of his own, and he got 0:14:58.760 --> 0:15:02.800 some of the best drums in my studio that anyone did. 0:15:03.320 --> 0:15:06.680 But it was we're talking a day making a high hat, 0:15:06.840 --> 0:15:09.400 getting a high hat sound. I couldn't do that to myself, 0:15:09.680 --> 0:15:12.160 let alone to the drummer, and it was it was 0:15:12.160 --> 0:15:15.120 a band, a real band, and so you know, they 0:15:15.120 --> 0:15:18.280 didn't mind so much. But you know, I grew up 0:15:18.320 --> 0:15:22.560 working with studio musicians, and you know they got You've 0:15:22.560 --> 0:15:25.400 got minutes to get the drum sound and let's get going. 0:15:33.600 --> 0:15:38.880 Okay, it's your career and all these things about Mike Polaceman, 0:15:39.280 --> 0:15:42.280 has it been trial and error? Or to what degree 0:15:42.840 --> 0:15:46.960 have you had people who've instructed you mentor types? 0:15:50.280 --> 0:15:55.000 Basically, well, the initial I'll give you a brief history 0:15:55.040 --> 0:15:59.800 of me. So I my parents moved to southern California 0:16:00.080 --> 0:16:02.400 senior year of high school, and I was a very 0:16:02.440 --> 0:16:05.280 shy person, so I didn't make many friends, but I 0:16:05.280 --> 0:16:07.520 did make it with a couple of guys that were 0:16:07.520 --> 0:16:11.200 starting a band, and I played different instruments, but I said, 0:16:11.240 --> 0:16:14.160 how about an organ? The English Movement was out and 0:16:14.240 --> 0:16:17.360 several bands had used an organ, and so we started 0:16:17.760 --> 0:16:23.040 our band, and funny enough, we thought we wrote some 0:16:23.040 --> 0:16:26.960 pretty good songs and we made some demos and one 0:16:27.000 --> 0:16:30.400 of the kid's mothers knew someone who knew someone that 0:16:30.520 --> 0:16:33.320 was in the business. That guy was Gary Usher. He 0:16:33.360 --> 0:16:35.960 was friends with the Wilson family, the Beach Boy family, 0:16:36.440 --> 0:16:38.800 and actually wanted to be in the Beach Boys, but 0:16:39.880 --> 0:16:42.720 didn't make it, but he did write two of the 0:16:42.720 --> 0:16:45.240 Beach Boys big hits in My Room in four oh nine. 0:16:45.280 --> 0:16:48.280 He wrote with Brian and he had a deal now 0:16:48.320 --> 0:16:52.840 with Decca Records, and so we got a meeting with him, 0:16:52.880 --> 0:16:54.880 went in and he heard I mean, we sent him 0:16:54.920 --> 0:16:56.320 the tape and he liked it. So he said, come 0:16:56.320 --> 0:16:58.000 in for a meeting and he said he really liked it, 0:16:58.040 --> 0:16:59.600 and he thought one of the songs was a hit, 0:17:00.160 --> 0:17:05.280 and he signed us. Uh. We recorded the initials recordings 0:17:05.320 --> 0:17:09.679 at Capitol Studio B, and he brought in a guitarist 0:17:09.720 --> 0:17:13.360 to augment the band. Our guitar player wasn't that good, uh, 0:17:13.440 --> 0:17:17.359 and that his name was Richie Podler, and he was 0:17:17.400 --> 0:17:21.200 an outstanding musician. He just he just passed away recently. 0:17:23.320 --> 0:17:26.040 He was an outstanding musician and as it turns out, 0:17:26.280 --> 0:17:32.639 a phenomenal producer. And engineer as well, and I we 0:17:32.760 --> 0:17:35.040 got dropped. You know, in those days, it was called 0:17:35.040 --> 0:17:38.200 a singles deal. They signed us for four singles we've made. 0:17:38.359 --> 0:17:41.000 We did four songs and they put him out and 0:17:41.040 --> 0:17:43.200 if anything hit, you ran in and cut six more 0:17:43.240 --> 0:17:46.719 and then you had an album. So there was no 0:17:47.280 --> 0:17:51.320 La Teens album. And I always chuckle at that that 0:17:51.480 --> 0:17:54.920 Decker Records, who passed on the Beatles, signed the l 0:17:55.000 --> 0:17:57.679 A Teams. And it's not so much that, not so 0:17:57.800 --> 0:18:00.040 much that they signed the l A Teams, but what 0:18:00.119 --> 0:18:02.840 kind of longevity were they were they hoping for? You know, 0:18:03.080 --> 0:18:06.280 I was six seventeen years old. What did I know 0:18:06.280 --> 0:18:10.960 about longevity? But anyway, so when we got dropped, I 0:18:11.000 --> 0:18:14.040 went over to Richie Podler's studio and told him the 0:18:14.119 --> 0:18:18.240 sad news, and he said, oh, you guys were really good. Here. 0:18:18.320 --> 0:18:20.560 I've got a good connection. I can get you a 0:18:20.560 --> 0:18:23.320 record deal. On my word, go see this guy Mike Curb. 0:18:23.600 --> 0:18:27.160 He's going to go places. And indeed, Mike Curb has 0:18:27.400 --> 0:18:31.439 gone to incredible places. But he signed us to our 0:18:31.480 --> 0:18:38.120 second recording contract and we went in to work with Richie. Now, 0:18:38.119 --> 0:18:41.760 when we worked with Gary Usher at Capitol and actually 0:18:42.119 --> 0:18:46.680 Western and two of the best studios in LA still 0:18:46.720 --> 0:18:52.240 to this day, if Capitol will reopen. You know, they 0:18:52.240 --> 0:18:56.720 were fancy at the time, albeit three track, but that's 0:18:56.840 --> 0:19:02.720 all there was nineteen sixty five. And now we went 0:19:02.720 --> 0:19:06.400 into Richie's studio, which was much funkier, a little homemade 0:19:06.440 --> 0:19:10.280 console and whatnot, and you know, not the cleanest place. 0:19:10.400 --> 0:19:13.919 But I came in for the first playback. We went 0:19:13.920 --> 0:19:16.520 out and did a made a track, came in for 0:19:16.560 --> 0:19:19.760 the first playback, and I remember like it was yesterday, 0:19:20.240 --> 0:19:24.040 looking up at the speakers while while a two track 0:19:24.119 --> 0:19:28.600 basic track was playing, and I heard, and maybe more importantly, 0:19:28.680 --> 0:19:32.000 felt something in what I was hearing out of the 0:19:32.000 --> 0:19:34.360 band that I had never heard or felt at those 0:19:34.400 --> 0:19:37.280 other great studios, and I knew it had to be 0:19:37.520 --> 0:19:40.680 what Richie was doing. And when the song was over, 0:19:40.840 --> 0:19:43.720 I literally pointed at all the equipment and said, can 0:19:43.760 --> 0:19:45.919 you teach me how to do this? And he said, no, 0:19:46.040 --> 0:19:48.280 I'm teaching this guy, Bill Cooper, go out and do 0:19:48.320 --> 0:19:50.800 another take. We got to get a better take. But 0:19:50.880 --> 0:19:53.480 that was the moment that sealed in my mind what 0:19:53.560 --> 0:19:56.800 I would do, as it turns out, once I got 0:19:56.840 --> 0:20:01.040 away from my father. But you can relate to this. 0:20:01.200 --> 0:20:04.080 My father was a Jewish doctor, so you know what 0:20:04.119 --> 0:20:07.119 that means. And I told him, no, Dad, I'm not 0:20:07.160 --> 0:20:09.720 going to be a doctor. Well, then a lawyer, I 0:20:09.760 --> 0:20:13.600 don't know. In fact, In fact, I did start law 0:20:13.640 --> 0:20:17.879 school at Loyola on the part time program when I 0:20:17.960 --> 0:20:21.320 was working for Richie. But I'm getting ahead of myself. 0:20:21.359 --> 0:20:24.720 But I couldn't. I got the grades and the second 0:20:24.720 --> 0:20:28.560 semester started and they were all season of B. I'd 0:20:28.560 --> 0:20:30.679 been faking it because I didn't have time to do 0:20:30.720 --> 0:20:34.720 the reading, go to class and do sessions. Anyway, after 0:20:34.760 --> 0:20:37.840 that first aha moment where I want, I want to 0:20:37.880 --> 0:20:40.640 know how to do that, because that was like magic 0:20:40.720 --> 0:20:43.240 to make the band sound and feel something so different 0:20:43.280 --> 0:20:45.959 than what I'd heard in those other great studios. So 0:20:46.000 --> 0:20:48.320 I went off to that studio I described earlier with 0:20:48.359 --> 0:20:50.800 the egg cartons on the wall and got my start 0:20:50.880 --> 0:20:56.119 learning there and where my left brain and right brain 0:20:56.400 --> 0:21:00.359 met in the middle. Engineering came very very quickly. I 0:21:00.440 --> 0:21:04.320 was very fortunate to meet someone who was an engineer 0:21:04.359 --> 0:21:07.800 that was very patient and heard what I was recording 0:21:07.800 --> 0:21:10.720 in that studio and thought that I had some real talent. 0:21:11.359 --> 0:21:14.320 And he was working in another studio, and I was 0:21:14.600 --> 0:21:18.720 I was back in college at this point, and I 0:21:18.800 --> 0:21:22.160 went over every night after school and would ask him, 0:21:22.280 --> 0:21:25.880 just nail him with question after question after question until 0:21:25.920 --> 0:21:28.840 he couldn't take it anymore, and he would say, all right, enough, 0:21:29.000 --> 0:21:33.040 go ahead, go home, I'll see you tomorrow. But engineering 0:21:33.080 --> 0:21:37.720 came very quickly, and so had we had upgraded that 0:21:39.280 --> 0:21:42.920 Mickey Mouse studio a bit. Still wasn't what I would 0:21:42.960 --> 0:21:47.320 call really professional, but it was closer, and I started 0:21:47.520 --> 0:21:53.800 doing some work that there was an engineer that worked 0:21:53.840 --> 0:21:57.359 for Richie Podler that was quitting the business. He was 0:21:57.440 --> 0:22:00.679 going to move back to Florida. And we're tug boats. 0:22:00.880 --> 0:22:02.720 I don't know what that has to do with engineering, 0:22:02.760 --> 0:22:05.720 but anyway, I said, do you think Richie and This 0:22:06.080 --> 0:22:07.960 would hire me? And he said, well he should because 0:22:08.000 --> 0:22:11.399 he'd heard all of what I was doing. And I said, well, 0:22:12.119 --> 0:22:14.920 let's bug him. And so for two months. I don't 0:22:14.960 --> 0:22:17.560 know how many times Tommy, the other engineer ever bugged him, 0:22:17.560 --> 0:22:21.439 but I bugged him like crazy for two solid months, 0:22:21.480 --> 0:22:24.280 and finally he wouldn't answer my calls a lot of 0:22:24.320 --> 0:22:26.399 the time because he knew why I was calling. I 0:22:26.440 --> 0:22:30.160 went over to corner him one day, and I said, 0:22:30.200 --> 0:22:32.160 you know, just give me a shot. That's all I'm 0:22:32.200 --> 0:22:35.440 asking for. See, I'm telling you now, I don't blame 0:22:35.480 --> 0:22:37.440 him because it only been like two and a half 0:22:37.560 --> 0:22:39.960 years since I had that aha moment where I didn't 0:22:40.160 --> 0:22:42.600 I barely knew what an equalizer from a limiter was. 0:22:43.080 --> 0:22:46.040 So here I am by now that studio American Recording 0:22:46.640 --> 0:22:51.480 was the hottest rock studio in Los Angeles. His biggest 0:22:51.520 --> 0:22:54.080 client was a guy named Gabriel Meckler who produced Three 0:22:54.119 --> 0:23:01.119 dog Nights first album and Steppenwolf's first album. And so 0:23:01.280 --> 0:23:03.560 Richie was really kicking it. But I begged him to 0:23:03.560 --> 0:23:06.080 give me a shot, and finally he said, all right, 0:23:06.119 --> 0:23:08.600 there's a demo session tomorrow morning. Come in and do that. 0:23:09.440 --> 0:23:11.320 Tell me what you know, let's see what you can do. 0:23:11.400 --> 0:23:14.680 So I went in. The demo sessions were like for publishers, 0:23:15.000 --> 0:23:19.120 where songwriter would come in, record four tracks, four new songs, 0:23:19.359 --> 0:23:22.440 put vocals on him, quick mixes, and go out the door. 0:23:22.520 --> 0:23:24.960 And then they would go make acetate little one off 0:23:25.000 --> 0:23:28.800 records that they would send to different artists or record 0:23:28.800 --> 0:23:31.440 companies to try to get their songs placed. So they 0:23:31.440 --> 0:23:35.480 were just demos, and he felt comfortable, comfortable leaving me 0:23:35.520 --> 0:23:39.359 with that. So I did that for screen Gems Lester 0:23:39.440 --> 0:23:46.919 Sills Company and I and I called him that you 0:23:46.960 --> 0:23:49.119 know that afternoon. I said, well, they said, well, they 0:23:49.119 --> 0:23:51.480 said you were great. I said, okay, what now? He said, well, 0:23:52.080 --> 0:23:54.320 tomorrow morning there's a different company, come in and do 0:23:54.400 --> 0:23:57.200 their same thing. Okay. So I went and did that, 0:23:57.680 --> 0:24:00.920 called him the afternoon, same thing. Okay. Now he said, 0:24:00.920 --> 0:24:04.400 all right, come tomorrow night and record three dog night. Okay, 0:24:04.480 --> 0:24:08.000 what now? What sense that makes? I have no idea. 0:24:08.080 --> 0:24:11.199 This was his biggest client and he throws this kid in. 0:24:11.359 --> 0:24:13.919 I don't get it. Scared to death. I went in 0:24:13.960 --> 0:24:17.320 the next night. Both the producer and the band were 0:24:17.359 --> 0:24:21.520 really nice, sweet to me, and I cut a track 0:24:21.560 --> 0:24:24.440 with him and called Richie the next day and I said, 0:24:24.440 --> 0:24:27.040 what did Gabriel say? He said, you were great? Okay, 0:24:27.080 --> 0:24:30.280 what now? He said, come tonight, do it again. Okay. 0:24:31.040 --> 0:24:34.240 I went in and cut a second track next morning, 0:24:34.400 --> 0:24:37.439 same thing, all right. Third night, I'm in with the 0:24:37.480 --> 0:24:41.240 band and the guitar player, Mike alsoon the guitar player 0:24:41.320 --> 0:24:44.879 wanted a guitar effect, and I'm sure that from the 0:24:44.880 --> 0:24:47.920 first album that Richie engineered that he knew that Richie 0:24:47.960 --> 0:24:51.280 could do anything with the guitar and so, and I'm 0:24:51.320 --> 0:24:53.160 being a keyboard player. I didn't know how to get 0:24:53.280 --> 0:24:55.879 any of those effects. So I had to call Richie 0:24:55.920 --> 0:24:57.960 and he came down and finished the session. That was 0:24:57.960 --> 0:24:59.760 the end of me tracking on that album. But I 0:24:59.760 --> 0:25:03.679 did do overdubs, and most importantly, I got in that 0:25:03.800 --> 0:25:06.280 room every chance I could to watch Richie because he 0:25:06.400 --> 0:25:12.200 really was an unbelievably brilliant engineer, and that's what pushed 0:25:12.200 --> 0:25:12.639 me off. 0:25:13.200 --> 0:25:17.160 Let's go back a chapter. You get involved with Bike Kurb. 0:25:18.440 --> 0:25:22.359 Anybody who's ever involved with Bike Kerb could never get 0:25:22.440 --> 0:25:26.520 out of his tentacles. Whereas you say, hey, a couple 0:25:26.560 --> 0:25:29.520 of sides and that was it. There are people might go, 0:25:29.720 --> 0:25:32.000 you know, you still owe me two more albums this 0:25:32.119 --> 0:25:34.440 and that. What was your experience with bike CERB. Was 0:25:34.480 --> 0:25:36.440 it as clean as it what you said just now 0:25:36.480 --> 0:25:37.119 and in the book? 0:25:39.240 --> 0:25:43.480 Yeah, basically it was. It was because you know what 0:25:43.640 --> 0:25:48.320 happened was Richie started. We cut one track, one track 0:25:48.600 --> 0:25:52.399 that day that I had my AHA moment, and then Richie, 0:25:52.640 --> 0:25:54.119 you know, I said, Okay, when do we come back? 0:25:54.160 --> 0:25:56.320 He said, it'll be a few days. I kept calling. 0:25:56.440 --> 0:25:59.280 Finally he said, Mike and I are on the outside. 0:25:59.280 --> 0:26:00.919 Don't think I'm going to be able to work with you. 0:26:01.560 --> 0:26:03.960 And so I went to Mike Curb to his office, 0:26:03.960 --> 0:26:06.639 which at that time was down on Sunset. It was 0:26:06.960 --> 0:26:11.639 Sidewalk Productions Curb Sidewalk. Yeah, and the office consisted of 0:26:12.000 --> 0:26:17.240 his sister Carol. That was it. And I said, well 0:26:17.240 --> 0:26:20.000 what do we do now? And we're sitting there in 0:26:20.040 --> 0:26:22.200 the office and I remember and what a cheeky little 0:26:22.280 --> 0:26:25.480 kid I was, because you know, he started making a 0:26:25.520 --> 0:26:28.560 suggestion of some kind. I said, maybe I could produce us, 0:26:29.119 --> 0:26:31.960 and he said we could try that. He had his 0:26:32.000 --> 0:26:36.440 own studio, so he said, yeah, go ahead and try it. Meanwhile, 0:26:37.359 --> 0:26:41.280 when we got dropped from Decca, our drummer, our drummer's 0:26:41.320 --> 0:26:43.920 father made him quit the band and get a real job, 0:26:45.119 --> 0:26:48.399 and so I said, we don't have a drummer, and 0:26:48.440 --> 0:26:50.840 he said, well, the engineer in my studio is a 0:26:50.880 --> 0:26:53.520 really good drummer. And I said, and he can play 0:26:53.520 --> 0:26:56.840 the drums. And engineer, oh, yeah, it's possible. It'll be fine. 0:26:57.359 --> 0:27:01.280 And so we went in did that. Cute stories about 0:27:01.280 --> 0:27:07.120 that in the book, But the bottom line is everything 0:27:07.160 --> 0:27:12.320 fell apart with the band, and and because he had 0:27:12.480 --> 0:27:16.000 next to nothing literally invested in us, there were no 0:27:16.080 --> 0:27:20.560 there were no tentacles to get wrapped around. So it 0:27:20.600 --> 0:27:23.320 was it was basically a short and sweet relationship. 0:27:24.160 --> 0:27:27.120 Although you did interact with Mike. Did he know anything 0:27:27.160 --> 0:27:29.919 about music? Did you have the sense he was going 0:27:30.000 --> 0:27:36.200 to go somewhere? What? How did he come across back then? 0:27:36.960 --> 0:27:39.680 No, I had no idea he knew anything about music. 0:27:39.680 --> 0:27:43.280 He didn't talk in musical terms. Uh, now I'm going 0:27:43.320 --> 0:27:47.679 by what my meant. My mentor, Richie Podler said the 0:27:47.720 --> 0:27:51.520 reason they broke up was Richie was doing all the 0:27:51.560 --> 0:27:54.600 work and Mike was getting all the credit slash money, 0:27:55.160 --> 0:28:00.199 and Richie demanded that he get credit and or you know, 0:28:00.320 --> 0:28:03.200 points for the work he was doing, and Mike refused. 0:28:03.440 --> 0:28:06.240 That's Richie's story. I'm sure Mike has a different one. 0:28:06.760 --> 0:28:11.080 I will say, however, that in those early years when 0:28:11.119 --> 0:28:13.439 I was able to talk Richie, when he allowed me 0:28:13.480 --> 0:28:17.680 to start working there, a couple of the producers quote 0:28:17.760 --> 0:28:20.520 unquote that I worked with were very much like that. 0:28:20.920 --> 0:28:24.439 They found out that I was very musical and I 0:28:24.600 --> 0:28:29.000 basically was doing more producing than they were, and they 0:28:29.359 --> 0:28:32.920 got all the credit. So there was a bit more 0:28:32.960 --> 0:28:35.159 of that back then. As you know, the business was 0:28:35.720 --> 0:28:40.240 kind of transforming, because you know, in the fifties and sixties, 0:28:40.280 --> 0:28:44.040 the producer most often worked at the record company, and 0:28:44.080 --> 0:28:47.320 it was about you know, finding maybe finding songs, and 0:28:47.360 --> 0:28:50.120 then getting the arranger and the studio and putting it 0:28:50.120 --> 0:28:53.200 all together and there was your record. There were exceptions, 0:28:53.240 --> 0:28:55.800 but that was the bulk of what went on back then. 0:28:56.920 --> 0:29:00.360 And so as we're transitioning into i'll call it rock 0:29:00.360 --> 0:29:02.840 air for lack of anything else, as multi track, and 0:29:03.760 --> 0:29:07.160 ultimately engineering would become a lot more part of the 0:29:07.160 --> 0:29:10.840 production process than just capturing what was going on live 0:29:10.920 --> 0:29:17.800 in the studio. This had this transformation brought in different 0:29:17.880 --> 0:29:21.080 kinds of producers, and unfortunately a lot of them were, 0:29:21.120 --> 0:29:24.400 as I said, kind of that's what they did. So 0:29:24.480 --> 0:29:27.760 I have no first hand experience about Mike in that regard. 0:29:35.800 --> 0:29:39.560 Your father, who wanted you to be a professional, did 0:29:39.600 --> 0:29:43.120 he ever ultimately respect what you did. 0:29:45.320 --> 0:29:48.480 Put it to you this way. Two years before he died, 0:29:49.440 --> 0:29:54.520 I had I had two Grammy nominations and maybe eight 0:29:54.640 --> 0:29:57.920 or ten No, No, six or eight gold records, and 0:29:57.960 --> 0:30:01.160 he literally sat me down and said, Bill, when are 0:30:01.200 --> 0:30:03.600 you going to get a real job. And I looked 0:30:03.680 --> 0:30:05.920 him and I looked at him and I said, Dad, 0:30:06.000 --> 0:30:08.960 I think I found my job. It's something I love doing. 0:30:09.000 --> 0:30:12.320 I think I'm good at it, and I've already had 0:30:12.800 --> 0:30:15.800 some success. I really want to do this. No, you 0:30:15.880 --> 0:30:18.160 can't trust it as a profession. You know a lot 0:30:18.200 --> 0:30:22.800 about that. So he was old school, you know, old 0:30:22.840 --> 0:30:26.640 school guy from Austria, and what can I say? He 0:30:26.760 --> 0:30:32.320 was self made guy and very bright and from what 0:30:32.360 --> 0:30:37.880 I hear, a very good surgeon. He went to NYU 0:30:38.160 --> 0:30:41.960 undergrad and then went to France actually because it was 0:30:42.040 --> 0:30:46.320 cheaper for med school, came back and opened up his 0:30:46.440 --> 0:30:50.480 practice on Long Island. World War two came and government 0:30:50.560 --> 0:30:54.360 said we need you, and so they put him at 0:30:54.400 --> 0:30:58.160 Ford or to California, where he put something like twenty 0:30:58.200 --> 0:31:01.800 six hundred servicemen back to other And when the war 0:31:01.960 --> 0:31:06.240 was over, he was he'd had it with medicine. So 0:31:06.280 --> 0:31:09.960 he took a couple of classes in business and got 0:31:10.000 --> 0:31:14.120 into administrative medicine, managing a clinic or hospital or something. 0:31:15.040 --> 0:31:16.920 And how about your mother? Was she supportive? 0:31:18.880 --> 0:31:23.240 Yeah? She was. Everything Billy does is great, So yeah, 0:31:24.280 --> 0:31:27.560 she was very supportive. But you know, The funny thing 0:31:27.560 --> 0:31:34.280 about that is only since the book, since the book, 0:31:34.320 --> 0:31:36.600 and the people that write me having read the book, 0:31:38.440 --> 0:31:40.600 it may sound silly, I don't know of it. I mean, 0:31:40.640 --> 0:31:43.000 I figured it out halfway through writing the book. I 0:31:43.160 --> 0:31:46.160 just lived my life, you know, and I went from 0:31:46.200 --> 0:31:48.280 this project to that project. And I knew I'd worked 0:31:48.280 --> 0:31:49.680 with a lot of big people. I knew I had 0:31:49.680 --> 0:31:53.040 a lot of awards and all that stuff, but it 0:31:53.080 --> 0:31:58.200 didn't coalesce into something that I could actually be proud of. 0:31:58.280 --> 0:32:01.120 And about halfway through writing the book, and since writing 0:32:01.160 --> 0:32:02.760 the book, the people that write me, some of the 0:32:02.800 --> 0:32:06.160 stories I'm told just are amazing to me that the 0:32:06.360 --> 0:32:09.600 music pop music, R and B music and whatnot meant 0:32:09.640 --> 0:32:13.080 so so, so so much to so many people. And 0:32:13.320 --> 0:32:19.720 I'm especially tickled by the professionals. I've got two aerospace 0:32:19.760 --> 0:32:23.320 engineers in Florida that I communicate with, the head of 0:32:23.400 --> 0:32:29.320 legal for Coca Cola. I communicate with him and he 0:32:29.520 --> 0:32:33.680 actually went to Atlanta and had lunch with him once. 0:32:35.960 --> 0:32:40.000 But yeah, I always used to joke that when I 0:32:40.040 --> 0:32:41.720 tell that about my dad, and I say, if I 0:32:41.760 --> 0:32:44.160 ever go to a psychiatrist, I'm sure that's where it 0:32:44.160 --> 0:32:47.760 will start. Well, funny enough, I've never thought about it 0:32:47.800 --> 0:32:49.880 that way, but I kind of did it in reverse 0:32:49.960 --> 0:32:52.400 when all these people started telling me how much what 0:32:52.520 --> 0:32:54.440 I did meant to them, because I didn't get that 0:32:54.480 --> 0:32:57.600 from my father. So that was cool. 0:32:57.960 --> 0:33:02.640 Okay. Also peeped picture of the music scene in LA 0:33:03.280 --> 0:33:06.480 when the La teens are forming. You know, at that 0:33:06.680 --> 0:33:10.320 point in Los Angeles there were a lot of independent labels. 0:33:10.760 --> 0:33:15.400 There was a lot happening. Was that palpable to everybody 0:33:15.440 --> 0:33:19.240 living in the Los Angeles area? Were people music crazy 0:33:19.280 --> 0:33:21.400 or it was just something you were into? What was 0:33:21.440 --> 0:33:22.120 the scene like? 0:33:24.160 --> 0:33:28.240 Well, you know, as I've learned after becoming professional and 0:33:28.400 --> 0:33:31.280 going back and you know, listening to the records back 0:33:31.320 --> 0:33:34.160 then with a new light and so on. You know, 0:33:34.240 --> 0:33:36.200 we were just we were in a suburb of LA 0:33:36.720 --> 0:33:40.080 doing our own little thing, and you know, we had 0:33:40.280 --> 0:33:42.240 really we did a Battle of the bands and were 0:33:42.240 --> 0:33:47.760 shocked to death. We didn't win, but in Hollywood, amazing 0:33:47.800 --> 0:33:54.360 the things you remember, the hurts. But I have to say, 0:33:54.440 --> 0:33:56.920 we weren't aware of anything really of what was going on. 0:33:57.200 --> 0:33:59.400 We were just were doing our own little thing and 0:33:59.560 --> 0:34:01.560 it happened to work out kind of good. 0:34:03.240 --> 0:34:08.480 Okay, you're working for Richie put Alore and you're doing 0:34:08.520 --> 0:34:11.200 some sessions. What's the next step after that? 0:34:14.080 --> 0:34:18.640 The next step is Richie took over producing. After that 0:34:18.800 --> 0:34:21.640 second Three Dog Night album, he took over producing Three 0:34:21.680 --> 0:34:24.400 Dog Night and he actually produced the lion's share of 0:34:24.440 --> 0:34:27.640 the hits for them through the seventies into the eighties, 0:34:28.080 --> 0:34:32.960 and he took over Steppenwolf and now he was, you know, 0:34:33.360 --> 0:34:35.040 a year and a half, two years into it, he's 0:34:35.080 --> 0:34:38.120 really popular, and so he's getting all kinds of offers. 0:34:38.160 --> 0:34:39.520 And I went to him and I said, Richie, I 0:34:39.600 --> 0:34:43.680 got a great idea. Let's close the studio to outside clients. 0:34:44.200 --> 0:34:46.400 You know, groups are going to be hitting you up. 0:34:46.440 --> 0:34:49.239 They already are you funnel them to me and get 0:34:49.239 --> 0:34:52.200 my production career going, and you know, they signed to 0:34:52.280 --> 0:34:55.399 your production company. And he loved that idea. He said 0:34:55.400 --> 0:34:58.640 that that's great, we'll do it. And so he signed 0:34:58.680 --> 0:35:02.640 a band and gave him to me, and I went 0:35:02.680 --> 0:35:05.879 in and cut one track with them. They were called 0:35:05.880 --> 0:35:13.600 The Realm, and they and then Richie started a See 0:35:13.600 --> 0:35:15.640 in those days, I should back up. In those days, 0:35:16.000 --> 0:35:19.600 in the studios they were a lot of them were 0:35:19.600 --> 0:35:22.320 basically divided to a day client and a night client, 0:35:22.880 --> 0:35:25.680 so quite often that's what it would be. You'd have 0:35:25.760 --> 0:35:29.399 to reset up every night if you were the night client, 0:35:29.400 --> 0:35:32.640 if you had a long booking. So he was starting 0:35:32.640 --> 0:35:35.920 a three dog I mean a Steppenwolf album, and he 0:35:35.960 --> 0:35:38.439 didn't want to have to tear down, so he said, 0:35:38.440 --> 0:35:39.840 you know, you're going to have to take a break 0:35:39.920 --> 0:35:43.920 till I get all my tracks done. Well, you know 0:35:44.160 --> 0:35:46.480 that one week turned into two weeks, turned into I 0:35:46.480 --> 0:35:51.320 don't know how many, and funny enough, his production company 0:35:51.360 --> 0:35:53.840 was only paying me when I was in the studio, 0:35:53.920 --> 0:35:57.440 so I said, I'm going to have to go independent, Richie, 0:35:57.600 --> 0:36:00.560 and he said, fine, go go. So that's when I 0:36:00.600 --> 0:36:04.120 went off on my own, and which was frightening for me, 0:36:04.280 --> 0:36:09.200 because he his studio, he knew what he was doing, 0:36:09.400 --> 0:36:11.840 and I did. I just copied everything he did in 0:36:11.920 --> 0:36:14.759 terms of micing and so on. And I tried doing 0:36:14.800 --> 0:36:16.839 that when I went into the first studio I went 0:36:16.880 --> 0:36:20.680 to and the second, and even though they had brand new, 0:36:20.760 --> 0:36:24.680 beautiful consoles and you know, newer speakers and newer this 0:36:24.760 --> 0:36:27.160 and newer that, I couldn't get anything close to the 0:36:27.200 --> 0:36:30.040 sound that I got at his studio. And that's when 0:36:30.040 --> 0:36:37.040 my experimentation started full bore. So I'm I'm humping along. 0:36:37.600 --> 0:36:41.239 And so that's by the way. Right before I left 0:36:41.360 --> 0:36:43.960 Richie's was when I had started law school to shut 0:36:43.960 --> 0:36:49.120 my dad up, and so I'm independent. When when the 0:36:49.160 --> 0:36:54.279 second semester starts and I said, you know, I quit 0:36:54.480 --> 0:36:56.600 my band. I quit college for two and a half 0:36:56.719 --> 0:36:59.440 years to chase my band. What I'm going to do 0:36:59.480 --> 0:37:01.600 is quit law school for a year and a half 0:37:02.280 --> 0:37:07.319 and see if engineering, producing whatever can support me. So 0:37:07.560 --> 0:37:10.080 that's what I was doing the best best I could. 0:37:10.719 --> 0:37:13.759 And I did get one one record company. It was 0:37:13.800 --> 0:37:15.600 one of my clients that I did all the work 0:37:15.640 --> 0:37:18.000 for had managed to get a job at a record 0:37:18.080 --> 0:37:26.160 company and he I found a gospel a black gospel group, 0:37:26.480 --> 0:37:29.920 and he let me do four sides with him. We 0:37:30.040 --> 0:37:34.600 put them out. There was no hits, but we so 0:37:34.960 --> 0:37:38.560 here I am and was a little over a year. 0:37:38.560 --> 0:37:42.720 It's about time to register for the fall, and I'm thinking, 0:37:42.800 --> 0:37:45.840 I'm pretty much thinking I've got to go back and 0:37:45.840 --> 0:37:48.680 get the degree. Shut him up. Maybe he's right, Look, 0:37:48.719 --> 0:37:51.160 this isn't working. I mean, I'm making a living, but 0:37:51.320 --> 0:37:54.839 I don't know. And so I'm mixing one day and 0:37:54.880 --> 0:37:57.120 the girl in front buzzes in and by myself, and 0:37:57.160 --> 0:37:59.800 she buzzes in on the phone and says, Clive Davis 0:37:59.840 --> 0:38:01.960 on one for you, and I'm going b blah blah 0:38:01.960 --> 0:38:05.920 blah blah blah whah. I picked up the phone very nervously. Hello, 0:38:06.520 --> 0:38:11.280 Hi Bill, Clive Davis, I said Hi. He said, Joel 0:38:11.320 --> 0:38:14.680 still tells me that you are a very good musician 0:38:14.680 --> 0:38:17.800 and engineer. Oh thank you. He said, what do you 0:38:17.840 --> 0:38:19.719 want to do with your life? And I said, well, 0:38:19.800 --> 0:38:22.279 I would love to do music, but and I was 0:38:22.320 --> 0:38:24.839 starting to say but my dad wants me to and 0:38:24.880 --> 0:38:27.800 he said, wait, wait, stop, I went to law school. 0:38:28.000 --> 0:38:29.400 You don't need to go to law school if you 0:38:29.440 --> 0:38:33.680 want to do music, you know. And I said yeah, 0:38:33.760 --> 0:38:36.640 but and basically he took the butt away. He said, 0:38:36.640 --> 0:38:38.719 what if I let you? What if I sign you 0:38:39.000 --> 0:38:42.480 and let you give you a chance to produce? And 0:38:42.520 --> 0:38:45.560 I said, well that works. I'll try that for sure. 0:38:46.640 --> 0:38:51.720 And so the first thing, the first thing I did 0:38:52.040 --> 0:38:57.799 was actually with Joel again, with me basically doing the 0:38:57.880 --> 0:39:00.759 lion's share of the work. And it was a group 0:39:00.800 --> 0:39:04.480 called Sweat Hoog and we funny enough, we got lucky, 0:39:04.640 --> 0:39:07.600 and the first single was a hit, not big one, 0:39:08.160 --> 0:39:10.800 so I think in the high twenties or something, low thirties, 0:39:10.800 --> 0:39:14.959 I don't know. And but that that led led the way, 0:39:16.680 --> 0:39:20.520 that's what and that's what got the ball rolling higher 0:39:20.560 --> 0:39:21.040 and faster. 0:39:21.719 --> 0:39:24.880 Okay, you worked with Clive, he did you a solid, 0:39:24.920 --> 0:39:28.040 he gave you the gig. But what was your experience 0:39:28.120 --> 0:39:30.880 working for Clive to the degree even interacted with. 0:39:30.920 --> 0:39:38.640 Him very very good, And not just because he gave 0:39:38.640 --> 0:39:42.520 me that shot, Because I mean all of my dealings 0:39:42.560 --> 0:39:46.960 with him throughout the years have all been have all 0:39:46.960 --> 0:39:49.400 been good. Did I agree with everything he said or 0:39:49.440 --> 0:39:52.000 wanted to do. No, we all have our opinions, but 0:39:52.040 --> 0:39:54.600 we're not all, you know, the chairman of the board, 0:39:54.640 --> 0:39:57.880 of the head of the company and whatever whatever. And 0:39:57.920 --> 0:40:01.359 I so but everything that all of my in those 0:40:01.400 --> 0:40:04.480 early years, I learned a lot from him. You know, 0:40:04.520 --> 0:40:06.839 he leaned you know, he was seeing what the kid 0:40:06.840 --> 0:40:10.160 could do, and it was really great. One funny one 0:40:10.200 --> 0:40:12.360 funny story is I think the very first thing he 0:40:12.400 --> 0:40:15.560 gave me to do was Boz Skaggs, who I would 0:40:15.600 --> 0:40:18.000 later go on to produce Boz Skags. It was his 0:40:18.080 --> 0:40:25.600 first album for CBS, and again Glenn Johns had produced it, 0:40:23.760 --> 0:40:28.840 and there was a single and you know, in those days, 0:40:29.239 --> 0:40:35.080 especially AM radio, We're talking nineteen seventy AM radio was 0:40:35.400 --> 0:40:37.719 the playlist had to be. You know, they varied, but 0:40:37.760 --> 0:40:40.000 it was like, you know, three minutes and thirty seconds 0:40:40.040 --> 0:40:42.160 and blah blah blah. So he said, I need a 0:40:42.239 --> 0:40:45.600 radio edit on this song. See what you can come 0:40:45.680 --> 0:40:48.920 up with. So I made the edit. He loved it. 0:40:49.440 --> 0:40:53.239 And then the next year was when Glenn came to 0:40:53.320 --> 0:40:58.680 America to master Who's Next Who album And that's when 0:40:58.680 --> 0:41:00.800 I met him at the mastering lab where I'm mastered 0:41:00.800 --> 0:41:04.719 and where Glenn mastered, and I was very nervous meeting 0:41:04.800 --> 0:41:06.759 him for the first time, and I said, you know, 0:41:07.200 --> 0:41:10.440 I'm the guy that did the radio edit on we 0:41:10.440 --> 0:41:12.799 were always sweethearts. And he looked at me in his 0:41:12.880 --> 0:41:15.960 typical dry voice and said, oh, you're the idiot that 0:41:16.040 --> 0:41:18.359 mucked it all up. And then he broke right away 0:41:18.440 --> 0:41:20.839 and said, I'm just kidding. It was a good edit. 0:41:21.440 --> 0:41:23.719 And of course, now to him, I would have said, 0:41:23.760 --> 0:41:25.480 your darn right, it was a good edit. But right 0:41:25.480 --> 0:41:26.440 then I went, thank you. 0:41:27.880 --> 0:41:30.640 So how long did you work for CBS and what 0:41:30.680 --> 0:41:32.920 did you do there other than boz guys. 0:41:34.000 --> 0:41:39.000 Okay. So from there one Sweat, Hog Hit. So went 0:41:39.080 --> 0:41:43.400 to New York to do Blood, Sweat and Tears, the 0:41:43.600 --> 0:41:47.359 new Blood album after which is new Blood because David 0:41:47.360 --> 0:41:51.080 Clayton Thomas, the great singer in those first couple of albums, 0:41:51.440 --> 0:41:57.520 had left the band and they wanted to record near 0:41:57.600 --> 0:42:00.400 their houses. So we recorded a studio and at New 0:42:00.440 --> 0:42:07.480 York and we cut like five tracks, and then the 0:42:07.600 --> 0:42:10.680 plan was we went into the city to record vocals 0:42:10.719 --> 0:42:13.440 with the new singer, who I hadn't met, and so 0:42:13.480 --> 0:42:16.080 we showed up one night and waited and waited, and 0:42:16.239 --> 0:42:19.680 of course no cell phones and everyone's trying to find him, 0:42:19.719 --> 0:42:24.480 and he didn't show And the next day they called 0:42:24.480 --> 0:42:27.720 me in the hotel and said, well, we got a problem. 0:42:28.280 --> 0:42:31.080 We just found out he's an alcoholic and he's on 0:42:31.160 --> 0:42:33.320 a binge. So we got to find a new singer. 0:42:34.400 --> 0:42:39.359 So okay, So, knowing that that was going to take 0:42:39.400 --> 0:42:43.120 a long time, called Clive and said, I don't know 0:42:43.160 --> 0:42:46.960 what to do. He said, well, come back, I'll find 0:42:47.000 --> 0:42:53.160 something funny enough Steve Tyrell. After they found a new singer, 0:42:53.200 --> 0:42:57.279 Steve Tyrell, who many years later I would do it 0:42:57.880 --> 0:43:03.720 mix all of his records was took over and finished 0:43:03.719 --> 0:43:06.520 that new Blood album. One of the many tie ins 0:43:06.520 --> 0:43:08.520 with people from the beginning to the end. That's kind 0:43:08.520 --> 0:43:12.480 of neat. So I came back to LA and he said, okay, 0:43:13.480 --> 0:43:17.279 White Trash. I said, oh great, you know that'll be great. 0:43:17.640 --> 0:43:19.759 I said, who, do I talk to Edgar? And he 0:43:19.760 --> 0:43:24.000 said no, actually Edgar has left White Trash, but the singer, 0:43:24.160 --> 0:43:28.320 the great singer, Jerry Lacroix, is still there. So okay. 0:43:28.520 --> 0:43:31.720 So I met with Jerry. We started talking production ideas. 0:43:32.440 --> 0:43:35.400 He played me the songs he had written, and he 0:43:35.520 --> 0:43:39.000 was not a big writer on Edgar's album, and I 0:43:39.080 --> 0:43:43.320 didn't care for his songs. So I got some songs 0:43:43.920 --> 0:43:46.799 and he didn't care for the songs I did. So 0:43:47.000 --> 0:43:50.600 I got started and it was just an uphill battle. 0:43:50.600 --> 0:43:53.560 It wasn't working, and one of the guys in his 0:43:53.680 --> 0:43:56.960 band really wanted to produce the band, and I called 0:43:56.960 --> 0:43:59.200 Clive and said, you know, I don't think I can 0:43:59.520 --> 0:44:02.440 work on that. You know, you're going to have to 0:44:02.440 --> 0:44:06.120 figure out it's kind of a scene here and he said, okay, 0:44:06.120 --> 0:44:11.040 all right. So that was that and before now you 0:44:11.080 --> 0:44:14.479 can imagine here I thought I was. I thought, oh boy, 0:44:14.880 --> 0:44:18.640 my big break well. Sweat Hog broke up after the 0:44:18.680 --> 0:44:21.560 first album, Sweat Hog breaks up, Blood, Sweat and Tears, 0:44:21.600 --> 0:44:25.160 we can't finish the album, and now White Trash isn't working. 0:44:25.960 --> 0:44:28.839 Every time. It was maybe my dad's right, that's all 0:44:28.840 --> 0:44:31.840 I'm thinking, Maybe my dad's right. And CBS had a 0:44:31.920 --> 0:44:36.200 very strange policy studios at the time. It was very, very, 0:44:36.360 --> 0:44:39.360 very very that's three varies, I'll give it four varies. 0:44:40.760 --> 0:44:46.919 Strange policy from their union, and the union rules were 0:44:46.960 --> 0:44:49.920 that nobody but a union engineer could touch the console 0:44:51.360 --> 0:44:58.000 and okay, and so in the meantime. The other strange 0:44:58.000 --> 0:45:01.240 thing they did. They had a big section I don't remember, 0:45:01.320 --> 0:45:06.759 but about nine ten engineers, but only one assistant engineer. 0:45:07.200 --> 0:45:10.400 And so what they did was if you weren't working 0:45:11.320 --> 0:45:15.000 either mixing or recording, book to record or mix, they 0:45:15.080 --> 0:45:18.239 put you as a second on a session, which was 0:45:18.320 --> 0:45:20.920 kind of weird because one day you could be recording 0:45:20.960 --> 0:45:25.240 some huge artist and the next week you're engineering an 0:45:25.239 --> 0:45:30.280 assistant engineer on a demo. Very strange, but whatever. Anyway, 0:45:31.239 --> 0:45:33.560 I was sitting around with nobody calling me to mix, 0:45:33.600 --> 0:45:37.239 and so they were trying to be respectful, you know, 0:45:37.320 --> 0:45:39.759 I'm sure Clive had told them about me and the 0:45:39.800 --> 0:45:43.000 plans that he had for me, so they didn't let 0:45:43.000 --> 0:45:45.280 me work. But some of the young guys were really 0:45:45.360 --> 0:45:48.200 upset about the fact that I was sitting around not 0:45:48.360 --> 0:45:52.279 doing anything. See, I had been I had been an 0:45:52.320 --> 0:45:55.000 independent engineer, as I mentioned earlier, one of the first 0:45:55.000 --> 0:45:58.880 in LA and I didn't think it was a tremendous 0:45:58.880 --> 0:46:00.440 amount of money, but it was more more than you 0:46:00.440 --> 0:46:04.640 could make working for the CBS. So Clive I told 0:46:04.719 --> 0:46:07.680 him about that problem, and they hired me at top scale. 0:46:08.360 --> 0:46:11.160 And so the young guys were very perturbed about that, 0:46:11.280 --> 0:46:15.879 needless to say, and in fact, I'll never forget when 0:46:15.880 --> 0:46:18.719 I'm the night manager took me around. They put me 0:46:18.760 --> 0:46:21.239 on the night shift. First, took me around to meet 0:46:21.320 --> 0:46:23.400 whoever was there working. And I went into the break 0:46:23.480 --> 0:46:25.920 room and here are the three young guys and one 0:46:25.960 --> 0:46:29.160 of them, you know, he introduces me. That guy introduces me, 0:46:29.160 --> 0:46:30.560 and the one guy looks at him says, are you 0:46:30.600 --> 0:46:33.959 a cop? And I said, no, I'm not a cop. 0:46:34.560 --> 0:46:36.600 And I had been told that they were trying to 0:46:36.600 --> 0:46:39.320 get them fired because they knew they were doing drugs, 0:46:39.320 --> 0:46:44.720 well pot anyway. And so later when I became friends 0:46:44.719 --> 0:46:47.080 with that guy. I said, do you think if there 0:46:47.120 --> 0:46:48.960 was a cop being hired that they would hire him 0:46:48.960 --> 0:46:51.279 at top scale? They'd hire some guy that, you know, 0:46:51.360 --> 0:46:53.000 mealy mouth guy that sat in the back of the 0:46:53.080 --> 0:46:55.560 room and did nothing. You know, you must have been high. 0:46:55.600 --> 0:46:58.680 I don't get it. So they put me in to 0:46:59.000 --> 0:47:01.120 shut those young guys up. They put me in as 0:47:01.120 --> 0:47:05.840 a second on a Barbara Streisand session with Richard Perry producing, 0:47:07.000 --> 0:47:10.080 And I'm just there running the tape machine and you know, 0:47:10.200 --> 0:47:14.960 doing whatever the engineer wants. And after about five days 0:47:14.960 --> 0:47:18.799 in the studio, and I never asked him why, I know, 0:47:18.840 --> 0:47:21.759 I had a You may know, I had a very 0:47:21.800 --> 0:47:25.640 long and prosperous relationship for both of us with Richard Perry, 0:47:25.719 --> 0:47:29.200 a lot of very very big albums. But for some reason, 0:47:29.880 --> 0:47:33.080 after five days of recording, he turned to the engineer 0:47:33.120 --> 0:47:36.560 and said, I want to build an engineer tomorrow. And 0:47:38.520 --> 0:47:40.799 the engineer wasn't too happy about that. He hadn't done 0:47:40.840 --> 0:47:43.839 anything wrong as far as I knew. But that's when 0:47:43.840 --> 0:47:49.160 I started, you know, with basically with Richard, and also 0:47:49.200 --> 0:47:55.200 when I started realizing what engineering could be. Because here 0:47:55.280 --> 0:48:00.160 I was sitting with a holding a fader, hold a 0:48:00.239 --> 0:48:04.560 knob that fifty feet away is a microphone that this 0:48:04.719 --> 0:48:08.839 unbelievable singer is emoting into. And one of my first 0:48:08.880 --> 0:48:11.000 titles for the book was going to be best seat 0:48:11.040 --> 0:48:14.440 in the House, because boy, when you're doing that, you 0:48:14.600 --> 0:48:16.840 have the best seat in the house, a seat that 0:48:16.920 --> 0:48:20.800 might include swearing even sometimes. But no, Barbara didn't swear. 0:48:20.840 --> 0:48:23.319 I don't remember Barbera swearing. But she and I hit 0:48:23.360 --> 0:48:30.160 it off really really well, and had hadn't have a 0:48:30.280 --> 0:48:32.520 great relationship. I worked with her over the years, and 0:48:33.040 --> 0:48:34.880 I may not be the only one, but I'm the 0:48:34.920 --> 0:48:37.480 only engineer that I know of that's worked with Barbara 0:48:37.760 --> 0:48:42.120 any excuse me, any amount of time that I have 0:48:42.200 --> 0:48:44.480 to say, I never had a problem with her. You know, 0:48:44.560 --> 0:48:49.040 she's very demanding, she's extremely intelligent. She is demanding. But 0:48:50.719 --> 0:48:56.360 i've other than other than on a live orchestra session, 0:48:56.600 --> 0:48:59.160 she didn't like her headphone mix. I had to work 0:48:59.280 --> 0:49:02.200 work that out a little bit. You know, there's a 0:49:02.239 --> 0:49:04.759 lot of pressure. You know, I realized that she's sitting 0:49:04.760 --> 0:49:07.759 there with eighty pieces out there, and she has to 0:49:07.760 --> 0:49:10.280 give a performance and so on, so I understand a little. 0:49:10.680 --> 0:49:14.280 But I got her headphones together and everything was fine. Anyway, 0:49:14.320 --> 0:49:21.040 what happened is people like Richard Perry that wanted to 0:49:21.040 --> 0:49:24.640 touch the controls. He wanted to ride the faders, and 0:49:25.160 --> 0:49:29.040 some of the engineers would report him to the union 0:49:29.200 --> 0:49:31.239 and so they would come in and you know, bark 0:49:31.280 --> 0:49:33.840 at Richard. And he wasn't the only one, but Clive 0:49:33.960 --> 0:49:37.040 was getting other people that wanted to be able to, 0:49:37.480 --> 0:49:39.719 you know, touch I don't know that any of them 0:49:39.760 --> 0:49:42.200 wanted to engineer necessarily, but just to be able to, 0:49:42.760 --> 0:49:44.719 you know, touch the faders if they wanted to play 0:49:44.719 --> 0:49:47.440 with the balances. And so he went to the union 0:49:47.480 --> 0:49:50.600 and said, you need to change that rule and they, 0:49:51.880 --> 0:49:56.040 I'm sure, with all the pride they had, they went, well, 0:49:56.080 --> 0:49:59.239 we're not going to And he said, you don't understand. 0:49:59.520 --> 0:50:03.400 I can't let you in your rule affect my creative 0:50:04.880 --> 0:50:07.719 creativity in my record company. I have to be able 0:50:07.719 --> 0:50:10.600 to hire people that I want and if they won't 0:50:10.640 --> 0:50:13.279 work because of your union rule, that that's not going 0:50:13.360 --> 0:50:16.959 to work. And they said, we're sorry, and he said, 0:50:17.760 --> 0:50:20.480 one more time, I'm closing the studios if you don't 0:50:20.560 --> 0:50:24.279 change your rule. He closed the studios, but I don't 0:50:24.280 --> 0:50:26.920 know how many people out of work, just a snap 0:50:27.680 --> 0:50:31.120 and who can blame him? I have to say, you know, 0:50:31.560 --> 0:50:35.040 like I said, the business was definitely changing. And uh, 0:50:35.160 --> 0:50:39.440 you know obviously right after that the engineer producer became 0:50:39.480 --> 0:50:44.759 a thing in England and here, uh and you know 0:50:44.920 --> 0:50:48.000 it wasn't going to work and they didn't, you know, 0:50:48.120 --> 0:50:54.760 they didn't change with the times. 0:50:57.880 --> 0:51:02.359 Okay, Richard's he says, he wants you to engineer. There 0:51:02.440 --> 0:51:05.920 must have been something that Tree inspired, something that you 0:51:06.200 --> 0:51:08.080 did that he wanted you. 0:51:10.080 --> 0:51:13.440 If I knew, Bob, i'd tell you. I promise I have, 0:51:14.080 --> 0:51:16.160 you know, I think of it my time. Back then 0:51:17.640 --> 0:51:20.360 we were in Studio A, and the tape machine was 0:51:20.400 --> 0:51:24.840 in like this secondary room, no walls, been a secondary 0:51:24.920 --> 0:51:27.479 room off to the left of the control room where 0:51:27.560 --> 0:51:29.160 you know, he can see me and I can see him. 0:51:29.200 --> 0:51:32.160 You know, you could you know, throw a tennis ball 0:51:32.200 --> 0:51:35.279 and hit him in the head. But you know, and 0:51:35.360 --> 0:51:38.440 I was, I was so shy, and you know, I 0:51:38.520 --> 0:51:41.359 wasn't scared to run the tape machine or anything. But 0:51:41.719 --> 0:51:43.440 I don't know that, I said. Maybe he asked me 0:51:43.480 --> 0:51:46.040 a couple of questions and I answered them the way 0:51:46.080 --> 0:51:49.359 he liked. I don't know, I have no idea, like 0:51:49.440 --> 0:51:55.600 I said, considering how many hours, days, weeks, months, years 0:51:55.719 --> 0:51:58.439 I spent in a control room with him. I'm really 0:51:58.480 --> 0:52:00.640 sorry I never asked him what was it that made 0:52:00.640 --> 0:52:03.319 you want to give me a shot at the first chair? 0:52:03.600 --> 0:52:04.480 But I never did it. 0:52:04.640 --> 0:52:08.880 Okay, So now you're behind the board with Richard. 0:52:10.440 --> 0:52:10.680 Ay. 0:52:11.200 --> 0:52:14.759 How sophisticated is the board at that point? And what 0:52:14.800 --> 0:52:18.720 does he tell you to do or not to do? Well? 0:52:19.400 --> 0:52:22.160 He he was trying to figure every he you know, 0:52:22.239 --> 0:52:27.560 he was pretty young in his career, he was, yeah, 0:52:27.600 --> 0:52:32.920 he and he was still learning things about about recording. 0:52:33.480 --> 0:52:37.040 So he didn't know what a compressor did or a 0:52:37.040 --> 0:52:39.800 limitter did, but he knew equalizers made things brighter or 0:52:39.880 --> 0:52:44.759 duller or basier or whatever. But I remember, I don't 0:52:44.760 --> 0:52:47.080 remember him even turning those. The main thing he wanted 0:52:47.080 --> 0:52:50.799 to do was, well, the thing was playing. He wanted to, 0:52:51.160 --> 0:52:53.640 you know, pull the piano. Rather than tell the engineer 0:52:53.680 --> 0:52:56.080 what to do, he wanted to just do it, you know, 0:52:56.200 --> 0:52:57.960 so he started That's what he would do, is just 0:52:58.000 --> 0:53:01.360 start playing with the balance on a play back. And 0:53:01.360 --> 0:53:05.759 and not all the time either, but uh, you know, 0:53:06.000 --> 0:53:08.919 basically though, he would trance, you know, he would give 0:53:08.960 --> 0:53:11.640 me his whatever thoughts he had on what to do, 0:53:12.000 --> 0:53:15.480 and I would do them. He was he was very eloquent. 0:53:16.120 --> 0:53:18.640 What was his special sauce? You work with a number 0:53:18.640 --> 0:53:22.080 of producers, what was special about him vis a vis 0:53:22.120 --> 0:53:22.719 somebody else? 0:53:23.920 --> 0:53:26.080 Uh, let's see where do I start? I guess I 0:53:26.120 --> 0:53:31.799 start with a great song, since, especially if he's if 0:53:31.800 --> 0:53:35.120 he's finding songs for an artist, like he did obviously 0:53:35.120 --> 0:53:38.480 for Barbara or the Pointer sisters. He found, you know, 0:53:38.520 --> 0:53:42.920 all the songs for their illustrious career. He gave them. 0:53:44.160 --> 0:53:46.560 He worked best that way. He didn't work as well 0:53:46.560 --> 0:53:52.640 with single artists. I remember I'm independent now and he's 0:53:52.680 --> 0:53:56.920 in England doing the No Secrets album, your Sylvaine album 0:53:56.960 --> 0:54:00.160 with Carl Simon, and he still thought of me. He 0:54:00.239 --> 0:54:02.160 knew that I was this guy that came from Richie 0:54:02.160 --> 0:54:06.440 Podler's rock studio. So and I had done rock, produced 0:54:06.520 --> 0:54:10.200 rock stuff, or tried to when when I was at CBS. 0:54:10.239 --> 0:54:12.880 So that's how he thought of me. So he recorded 0:54:12.920 --> 0:54:16.480 the album and mixed all but two songs in England 0:54:16.480 --> 0:54:21.400 with Robin Cable, and he called me and said, there's 0:54:21.680 --> 0:54:24.239 I'm coming back and next week I want you to 0:54:24.239 --> 0:54:26.480 get a studio. There's two rock songs. That I want 0:54:26.520 --> 0:54:30.520 you to mix and I said okay, and so he 0:54:31.680 --> 0:54:36.720 that's what I did. And he was late for this session, 0:54:36.880 --> 0:54:39.920 as he always was, but Carly was on time the 0:54:39.920 --> 0:54:45.560 first mixing session and she we got She we hit 0:54:45.600 --> 0:54:48.600 it off right away, with her telling me what a 0:54:49.719 --> 0:54:52.360 it was a nightmare. I've never I've never screamed at 0:54:52.400 --> 0:54:55.279 anyone before I had to. I was I had to 0:54:55.320 --> 0:54:59.200 go and get sedatives in England. I said, really said, yeah, 0:54:59.280 --> 0:55:02.719 he was you. He's so stubborn. She's just going through 0:55:02.719 --> 0:55:05.839 all this, you know. Wow. In fact, I remember when 0:55:05.880 --> 0:55:10.480 we mastered that record, she was dating James Taylor and 0:55:11.600 --> 0:55:14.279 James went outside, I think, for a cigarette and I 0:55:14.360 --> 0:55:17.200 went out to talk to him while Doug Sax was 0:55:17.239 --> 0:55:20.720 mastering the album and he was sitting there and he said, 0:55:22.280 --> 0:55:23.839 I told him. I said, you know, she said it 0:55:23.880 --> 0:55:26.080 was really rough on her. And he said, oh my gosh, 0:55:26.200 --> 0:55:30.319 I'll never let her work with him again. And of 0:55:30.360 --> 0:55:35.239 course you know how that works with success. And now 0:55:35.280 --> 0:55:37.759 maybe we can make another exception or two or three. 0:55:39.200 --> 0:55:43.359 But yeah, so yeah. But then so Richard, I mixed 0:55:43.360 --> 0:55:46.880 the two rock songs, and Richard, always looking for something better, 0:55:47.200 --> 0:55:49.160 said why don't we try and mix on this song. 0:55:49.360 --> 0:55:53.400 Oh okay, and that came out great, and yeah, I 0:55:53.520 --> 0:55:54.760 mixed the whole album over. 0:55:56.280 --> 0:56:01.040 Yes, But ultimately he went with Keybles mix of your 0:56:01.120 --> 0:56:02.480 Sylvain correct. 0:56:03.400 --> 0:56:08.160 Yes, And I promised myself I would I would forgive 0:56:08.239 --> 0:56:12.279 Doug for doing this, for he was because of Doug 0:56:12.400 --> 0:56:17.600 Sachs and what it was. I thought my mix was 0:56:17.719 --> 0:56:24.280 better in every way, and Doug did until one time. 0:56:24.400 --> 0:56:27.000 I see about the fourth time he's listening to it. 0:56:27.080 --> 0:56:29.880 Initially he said, oh, yeah, this is really good, and 0:56:29.920 --> 0:56:34.080 then he noticed that before every chorus when Jim Gordon, 0:56:34.160 --> 0:56:38.560 the drummer starts off with Clouds in my Coffee, that 0:56:38.880 --> 0:56:41.440 there's starts with the bass drum going to the toms. 0:56:41.880 --> 0:56:44.879 That the bass trum that was the only the bass 0:56:44.920 --> 0:56:47.799 drum on my mix was a little bit softer than 0:56:47.840 --> 0:56:51.480 it was on Robin's. And it's the kind of thing 0:56:51.920 --> 0:56:55.239 I promise you that the compression on both AM and 0:56:55.360 --> 0:57:00.600 FM radio would more than have taken up and stated 0:57:00.600 --> 0:57:03.840 for But as soon as he showed that to Richard, 0:57:04.120 --> 0:57:06.600 that's all it took. So he went with the mix 0:57:07.120 --> 0:57:08.759 and it is what it is, and it am there. 0:57:09.800 --> 0:57:13.080 So let's say I listened you know you're close to it. 0:57:13.440 --> 0:57:17.440 But if the average person, not completely unsophisticated but not 0:57:17.560 --> 0:57:21.280 a pro, listen to your mix or the single mix 0:57:21.320 --> 0:57:24.160 that went out, how different were they? 0:57:29.280 --> 0:57:36.720 Well? How do I put that in words? Mine? Certainly, 0:57:36.720 --> 0:57:39.840 not Night and Day. Certainly not night and day. There's 0:57:39.840 --> 0:57:42.480 some guitars in there that mine were a little louder 0:57:43.160 --> 0:57:46.640 that when I hear it that because they're down they weren't. 0:57:47.040 --> 0:57:50.040 You know, I know the compression would have done that 0:57:50.120 --> 0:57:53.360 because the only thing playing before every chorus is that 0:57:53.480 --> 0:57:57.360 drum and her voice. And even though even though she's 0:57:57.400 --> 0:58:00.720 louder in every mix than the drum, it would have 0:58:00.800 --> 0:58:02.520 caught it. It would have pulled her to that and 0:58:02.560 --> 0:58:06.480 the drum would have come up. But like the guitars, 0:58:06.520 --> 0:58:09.600 the things that I like about my mix better very 0:58:10.080 --> 0:58:12.680 to this day when I hear it on the radio. Yeah, 0:58:12.840 --> 0:58:15.040 that's one of the things I know was better about mine. 0:58:15.520 --> 0:58:18.400 I don't know that I'd have to hear it again 0:58:18.440 --> 0:58:20.600 to remember to hear them back to back. 0:58:20.640 --> 0:58:25.240 You remember, okay, you track the Barber Streiss in the album. 0:58:25.920 --> 0:58:28.000 Then when it comes to mixing some of it, some 0:58:28.120 --> 0:58:31.280 of it, okay, Then what happens when it comes to mixing. 0:58:34.240 --> 0:58:38.840 Again. The album was halfway done when I got involved, 0:58:39.280 --> 0:58:43.960 and some of it was already mixed by the other 0:58:44.000 --> 0:58:51.000 engineer and whatnot. But the songs that we finished, I mixed, 0:58:51.960 --> 0:58:56.200 I think just about half of them. And that I 0:58:56.240 --> 0:58:58.760 had heard people had told me about working with Richard 0:58:58.800 --> 0:59:01.240 what it was like on the previous album, which is 0:59:01.240 --> 0:59:05.560 the album that that put Barbara in the modern era, 0:59:05.880 --> 0:59:11.520 out of you know, out of her Broadway stuff. They said, 0:59:11.680 --> 0:59:15.720 they said that, you know, they talked about the maniacal 0:59:15.760 --> 0:59:19.840 ways of Richard, and they said, for instance, that he kept, 0:59:20.200 --> 0:59:22.960 whether it was he or Barbara or both, they kept 0:59:23.160 --> 0:59:27.640 an orchestra till one in the morning, which they went 0:59:27.640 --> 0:59:31.240 into overtime. It was at seven o'clock start. They went 0:59:31.280 --> 0:59:35.160 into overtime at ten oh one. And I don't know 0:59:35.200 --> 0:59:38.280 when Golden Times started back then, but you know, those 0:59:38.400 --> 0:59:41.480 musicians made a lot of money. You know, they're also 0:59:41.600 --> 0:59:43.600 not the kind of musicians that are used to playing 0:59:43.640 --> 0:59:47.160 that long, that hard, but my orchestra, but they kept 0:59:47.200 --> 0:59:51.040 them there. So the mixing, another thing I had heard 0:59:51.240 --> 0:59:54.480 is that he'll do lots and lots of mixes, and 0:59:54.840 --> 0:59:59.120 indeed he did lots and lots of mixes. The only 0:59:59.160 --> 1:00:01.440 thing in the mix he he insistent on riding the 1:00:01.520 --> 1:00:06.640 vocal and that would stay till till whenever. The last 1:00:06.640 --> 1:00:09.320 thing I did with him was he always rode the vocal, 1:00:09.360 --> 1:00:14.160 which drove me a little crazy because I like to 1:00:14.240 --> 1:00:17.840 ride the vocal. You know, I'm really big on the vocalist. 1:00:17.880 --> 1:00:19.880 I really try to protect them and put them in 1:00:19.920 --> 1:00:23.280 the best light always because that's that's what they live by. 1:00:24.080 --> 1:00:25.960 And not that he didn't do a good job, but 1:00:26.000 --> 1:00:28.480 it was just frustrating for me with the track because 1:00:28.480 --> 1:00:31.880 I'm kind of usually the vocalist following the track, leading 1:00:31.920 --> 1:00:34.480 the track, albeit but following the track. So here I 1:00:34.520 --> 1:00:38.080 am with the track following him. But we did okay. 1:00:38.640 --> 1:00:42.400 So other than riding the vocal, you do a mix 1:00:43.200 --> 1:00:45.800 and what kind of complaints would he have? What would 1:00:45.840 --> 1:00:48.000 he want redone? What would you want change? 1:00:49.200 --> 1:00:53.400 Oh? He was famous for finding anything and everything. You 1:00:53.440 --> 1:00:57.200 know up you know, it starts with you know, maybe 1:00:57.200 --> 1:01:01.280 the congas are too loud, Okay, turn the congress down. Maybe. 1:01:01.320 --> 1:01:04.240 And by the way, when we started with like with 1:01:04.400 --> 1:01:11.480 Barbara and uh and no Secrets for sure, uh. And 1:01:11.520 --> 1:01:17.040 I think the next album with her, I think there 1:01:17.080 --> 1:01:20.720 was no automation. It was definitely every time you're mixing, 1:01:20.760 --> 1:01:23.960 you mist and that was I love doing that. I 1:01:24.000 --> 1:01:27.000 loved it. In fact, when we finally got moving fader automation, 1:01:27.400 --> 1:01:29.520 where you would move the faders and it went into 1:01:29.560 --> 1:01:32.280 a computer and then the computer would play back your 1:01:32.360 --> 1:01:36.560 moves which you could override. But I had to get 1:01:36.640 --> 1:01:39.000 used to letting the computer help me. I didn't want 1:01:39.000 --> 1:01:43.600 any help. I wanted to do it all myself. And 1:01:43.680 --> 1:01:48.080 so anyway he would find, he would find some excuse 1:01:48.560 --> 1:01:53.240 always and kept doing it. And you never you never 1:01:53.560 --> 1:01:56.240 were satisfied. You never bore that sounds great, you know, 1:01:56.280 --> 1:01:59.200 you never got that. It was like he'll he'll go 1:01:59.640 --> 1:02:02.720 listen to it and mastering, and quite often we'll come 1:02:02.720 --> 1:02:05.600 back and mix it again. In fact, the funny story 1:02:05.600 --> 1:02:08.480 about that if I can jump ahead, although not that 1:02:08.600 --> 1:02:14.720 far ahead, is on the Ringo album. Well before that, 1:02:15.600 --> 1:02:19.200 speaking of that maniacal Ways, Jeff Percaro, the great drummer, 1:02:19.720 --> 1:02:22.560 told me a story about his maniacal ways. This is 1:02:23.160 --> 1:02:28.880 like in nineteen eight, seventy eighty one or something. He said, 1:02:28.920 --> 1:02:32.440 we were doing a tracking session and you know, Richard 1:02:32.480 --> 1:02:34.920 in his usual wake, you know, we did two or 1:02:34.960 --> 1:02:36.840 three takes, and then they came in and listened, and 1:02:36.880 --> 1:02:38.680 he found something to do, and they went out and 1:02:38.680 --> 1:02:42.680 did another take or two came in and listened and 1:02:43.040 --> 1:02:45.840 just one more guys, So they went back out and 1:02:46.360 --> 1:02:49.720 did one more. Jeff said, they came in, they listened 1:02:49.760 --> 1:02:53.320 to it and everyone's that's the one. And Jeff said, 1:02:53.400 --> 1:02:55.560 I turned here and I said, Richard, that's the one, 1:02:55.840 --> 1:02:58.120 and he went, yeah, it's really good. But I think 1:02:58.120 --> 1:03:00.800 if we just do no, Richard, you don't understan that 1:03:01.000 --> 1:03:04.680 is the one we're going with. He said, But just 1:03:04.680 --> 1:03:08.200 what Richard, next song or we leave? And that was it. 1:03:08.760 --> 1:03:12.400 He threw down the gauntlet. But on the Ringo album 1:03:14.200 --> 1:03:19.400 eight years earlier, something we knew that the song Photograph 1:03:19.600 --> 1:03:23.960 was going to be the first single, and so Richard 1:03:24.560 --> 1:03:27.840 and here, you know, this was arguably his biggest shot 1:03:28.000 --> 1:03:31.640 at that time. It was working with all the Beatles, 1:03:32.320 --> 1:03:34.880 and so I knew we were going to mix it 1:03:35.000 --> 1:03:38.400 several times. So we mixed it and again each time 1:03:38.400 --> 1:03:43.320 we mix it, it's like, you know, five mixes printed. You know, 1:03:43.400 --> 1:03:46.360 who knows how many we did that weren't printed. He 1:03:46.440 --> 1:03:49.160 goes in the mastering lab and listens to to it. 1:03:49.400 --> 1:03:50.760 And he goes, you know, I think if we do 1:03:50.840 --> 1:03:53.720 this and do that, we went back in. He said, okay, 1:03:54.320 --> 1:03:56.880 So we did another group of mixes, went back to 1:03:56.920 --> 1:04:01.360 the mastering lab, same thing. Okay, we got it. Now, 1:04:01.400 --> 1:04:03.480 we got it. But can I just hear that first 1:04:03.520 --> 1:04:07.240 mixed first day? Yeah? See that was better there. Okay 1:04:07.880 --> 1:04:10.760 again there's I have to do this by hand. You know, 1:04:11.040 --> 1:04:13.160 it's not like going back like we do today and 1:04:13.240 --> 1:04:16.800 the computer has everything exactly where it was. It's you know, 1:04:17.320 --> 1:04:21.600 it's a new mix every time. So back we go, 1:04:22.320 --> 1:04:25.800 and I thought we had it. We go into the 1:04:25.800 --> 1:04:29.880 mastering lab, play it and he plays them. Doug says, boy, 1:04:30.040 --> 1:04:32.720 I think you got it, Richard, And he said, yeah, Doug, 1:04:32.800 --> 1:04:34.920 it's really good. And he turns to me. But I 1:04:35.000 --> 1:04:37.760 know that if we just and I interrupted him. I said, Richard, no, 1:04:38.320 --> 1:04:41.640 He said no. What I said, you me and that 1:04:41.760 --> 1:04:44.520 sixteen track tape will never be in the same room 1:04:44.560 --> 1:04:47.480 at the same time again. If you want it mixed, 1:04:47.680 --> 1:04:51.040 get someone else, or I go in alone. Oh funny, Bill, 1:04:51.080 --> 1:04:53.960 I've got Richard. I'm not kidding. And I went in 1:04:54.160 --> 1:04:57.760 alone and mixed it by myself, as if I didn't 1:04:57.760 --> 1:04:59.920 know what he wanted out of it after all those. 1:04:59.680 --> 1:05:06.520 Times, okay, all those times. Did it make a difference. 1:05:11.800 --> 1:05:15.600 To the studios in my bank account? Of course not, 1:05:17.200 --> 1:05:19.080 you know, a difference to who. That's the way you 1:05:19.120 --> 1:05:21.600 have to answer that question, because that's what we do 1:05:21.640 --> 1:05:25.080 as creatives. You know, does it make a difference. It 1:05:25.120 --> 1:05:27.840 matters to me. I go through all these gyrations that 1:05:27.880 --> 1:05:31.080 we spoke about earlier with trying to make digital as 1:05:31.080 --> 1:05:33.200 good as I can possibly make it. And I have 1:05:33.280 --> 1:05:37.800 a friend, an engineer friend who's constantly telling me, is 1:05:37.920 --> 1:05:40.920 does it really make a difference? And that's what I say. 1:05:41.040 --> 1:05:44.400 It makes a difference to me. Is it different? Yeah, 1:05:44.480 --> 1:05:48.040 it's that much better. But when I built my studio, 1:05:48.480 --> 1:05:51.560 I knew, I mean, that's just how I've always operated. 1:05:51.680 --> 1:05:54.040 I knew that when I built a studio, how do 1:05:54.120 --> 1:05:57.680 I make an incredible studio? Well, this one, this studio, 1:05:57.760 --> 1:06:00.800 they all have the same stuff. They ad mites got headphones, 1:06:00.840 --> 1:06:02.440 they got you know, they got what they got. But 1:06:02.640 --> 1:06:06.040 this studio has incredible mics. This studio doesn't have such 1:06:06.040 --> 1:06:08.240 a good headphone system. Bail blah blah. You just got 1:06:08.280 --> 1:06:12.480 to have everything nailed. So that's that's what you tried. 1:06:12.520 --> 1:06:16.160 To do and by by you know, by ten percent 1:06:16.200 --> 1:06:18.360 here and ten percent there, and ten percent here and 1:06:18.440 --> 1:06:22.240 five percent there, and eventually you get up to forty 1:06:22.280 --> 1:06:25.440 five fifty percent. That makes a difference. So today with 1:06:25.560 --> 1:06:28.800 the digital, especially with the way things are recorded, so 1:06:28.880 --> 1:06:32.520 many you know, I get so few sessions that are 1:06:32.560 --> 1:06:36.240 done by all professional people. You know, so many people 1:06:36.320 --> 1:06:38.640 are recording. You know, they send it to the bass 1:06:38.640 --> 1:06:40.480 player who puts on the bass, and they send it 1:06:40.480 --> 1:06:42.760 to the drummer who puts on the drums in his house. 1:06:43.080 --> 1:06:44.960 And some of those are very very good, don't get 1:06:45.000 --> 1:06:48.200 me wrong. Some of them are not very good and whatnot. 1:06:48.840 --> 1:06:51.440 But you know, I mean I remember when it started, 1:06:51.920 --> 1:06:56.480 you know, decades ago, with with people and doing home recording, 1:06:57.080 --> 1:07:00.480 and uh, it's just and it doesn't hold it. It's 1:07:00.520 --> 1:07:05.080 not like it used to be that one engineer primarily 1:07:05.480 --> 1:07:09.360 for most parts, sat through the recording process, the tracking process, 1:07:09.440 --> 1:07:12.800 and the overdubbing process. Now maybe they didn't mix. They 1:07:12.800 --> 1:07:16.080 would send it to somebody that who was known for mixing, 1:07:16.280 --> 1:07:18.880 like myself, and they like that because they get a 1:07:18.880 --> 1:07:20.880 fresh look on it as opposed to the guy that's 1:07:20.960 --> 1:07:25.760 been in the trenches for months doing it. But uh, 1:07:26.160 --> 1:07:29.040 you know, I think it's a it's a worthwhile way 1:07:29.080 --> 1:07:33.080 of looking at it. So that's you know, did it 1:07:33.160 --> 1:07:35.240 make a difference to Richard? It did? 1:07:43.680 --> 1:07:46.600 Okay, let me use it because I'm sure Richard was concerned. 1:07:47.160 --> 1:07:51.480 Do you think it made a difference in the commercial success. 1:07:53.440 --> 1:07:57.400 For the most part, And if we're talking about from 1:07:57.520 --> 1:08:01.440 the first time we mixed a song, I won't. I won't. Well, 1:08:01.880 --> 1:08:04.200 from from the first time he mixed a song to 1:08:04.280 --> 1:08:07.360 the whatever time didn't make a difference. No, probably not. 1:08:07.800 --> 1:08:10.440 Those were all close enough on Richard with me mixing 1:08:11.520 --> 1:08:15.000 now what I did sometimes and I remember I had 1:08:15.040 --> 1:08:17.960 a friend from the east visiting me, East coast visiting 1:08:18.000 --> 1:08:24.040 me once and I think it was David Sanborn album 1:08:25.680 --> 1:08:29.080 and had I had the mix before Richard. You know, 1:08:29.120 --> 1:08:32.280 I would get the mix where I liked it, and 1:08:32.400 --> 1:08:35.840 Richard would come in and my friend heard it and 1:08:35.920 --> 1:08:41.920 watched it, watched him destroy it, and uh, and it 1:08:42.040 --> 1:08:45.040 wasn't that album, but on another meaning, meaning what we 1:08:45.120 --> 1:08:47.160 ended up with wasn't as good as where it started. 1:08:48.040 --> 1:08:51.519 And it was one time I can't remember what album, 1:08:51.560 --> 1:08:53.880 but there was definitely one time where where I made 1:08:53.960 --> 1:08:56.559 him go back and listen to the first mix, Richard. 1:08:56.600 --> 1:08:58.439 I want you to hear where I had it when 1:08:58.479 --> 1:09:01.080 you showed up three four hours go. And I played 1:09:01.160 --> 1:09:03.920 him that first mix, and he goes, you're right, it 1:09:03.960 --> 1:09:08.400 does feel better kind And I said, you know, here's 1:09:08.439 --> 1:09:13.280 the thing, Richard could never think. He the way I've 1:09:13.439 --> 1:09:17.479 said is that I want a mix. It's it's not 1:09:17.560 --> 1:09:19.599 a great analogy, but it's the best one I got. 1:09:19.800 --> 1:09:21.920 I want a mix to be a beautiful. 1:09:21.560 --> 1:09:22.400 Lush forest. 1:09:22.840 --> 1:09:26.479 This forest has all kinds of different trees, and I 1:09:26.520 --> 1:09:28.679 want it when you look at it, just to go, wow, 1:09:28.720 --> 1:09:33.080 that is beautiful. Richard wants to investigate every tree. Is 1:09:33.120 --> 1:09:36.000 that pine tree in the back high enough? Okay, let's 1:09:36.000 --> 1:09:39.080 try it higher? You know what? You know? What about 1:09:39.080 --> 1:09:43.280 this palm tree over here? You know, okay, let's try it. 1:09:43.320 --> 1:09:46.080 You'd start playing with all those things, and you got 1:09:46.080 --> 1:09:48.599 all the trees trimmed the way he wants them. And 1:09:48.640 --> 1:09:51.080 it doesn't. But it doesn't feel the same. And you can't. 1:09:51.120 --> 1:09:53.720 You don't know why it isn't you know, because how 1:09:53.760 --> 1:09:56.600 something feels, it's definitely it's a mix. You know. I 1:09:56.920 --> 1:10:00.320 was talking to someone yesterday. Cooking is exactly like mixing. 1:10:00.400 --> 1:10:02.679 To me. Unfortunately, I don't have that skill I wish 1:10:02.760 --> 1:10:05.960 I did. I love eating, but I can't put the 1:10:06.120 --> 1:10:10.000 ingredients together. But really good chefs know how to put 1:10:10.160 --> 1:10:13.480 ingredients together so that when you taste it, you're not analyzing. 1:10:13.560 --> 1:10:15.479 It's just, oh my gosh, that's great. And that's what 1:10:15.560 --> 1:10:17.840 I always wanted from Richard, but he couldn't do it. 1:10:18.040 --> 1:10:21.000 He just he had to look at every single tree. 1:10:21.240 --> 1:10:25.559 So some albums you tracked but didn't mix, how'd you 1:10:25.600 --> 1:10:26.280 feel about that? 1:10:29.720 --> 1:10:33.760 Well, there weren't many, but there were some because of 1:10:34.000 --> 1:10:38.519 scheduling primarily, or like I know on a couple of 1:10:38.600 --> 1:10:45.519 Carly's albums where I did some of the recording and 1:10:45.560 --> 1:10:47.280 then he went to New York to work with New 1:10:47.360 --> 1:10:52.120 York musicians, or in the third album, her second album, 1:10:52.160 --> 1:10:54.360 she was pregnant because she didn't want to be away 1:10:54.360 --> 1:10:57.240 from home so long, and whatever different reasons. He worked 1:10:57.240 --> 1:10:59.880 in New York and there when he had some things going, 1:11:00.120 --> 1:11:02.160 mixed some of the stuff there, and some of them 1:11:02.200 --> 1:11:04.439 I remixed when he came back to LA Some of 1:11:04.479 --> 1:11:10.880 them stood. But I mean the answer to your question 1:11:11.000 --> 1:11:14.360 is I'm insecure enough that I would want to mix 1:11:14.760 --> 1:11:17.000 the things I recorded just because I don't want to 1:11:17.040 --> 1:11:20.320 hear someone critique me and say, oh, wow, that's the 1:11:20.360 --> 1:11:22.760 best Shna could do. I don't know if that ever 1:11:22.760 --> 1:11:23.360 happened or not. 1:11:23.400 --> 1:11:26.760 Okay, how about let's say you're mixing and you get 1:11:26.800 --> 1:11:33.200 an album that has different engineers, different studios. Can you 1:11:33.240 --> 1:11:35.920 make it all sound of a piece or inherently are 1:11:35.960 --> 1:11:36.559 they different? 1:11:38.720 --> 1:11:41.960 Well, that's what I was alluding to earlier. No, I mean, 1:11:42.000 --> 1:11:44.000 you do the best you can with what you've got, 1:11:44.840 --> 1:11:48.800 you know, and if you if you're handed something like 1:11:48.800 --> 1:11:51.160 like the No Secrets album that Robin Cable did an 1:11:51.240 --> 1:11:55.880 outstanding job of recording, you know, I just balanced the 1:11:55.920 --> 1:12:01.640 thing up and go with it. And you know, some 1:12:01.680 --> 1:12:04.519 of the other ones. I know, there was one year 1:12:04.680 --> 1:12:08.080 when I was double nominated for Best Engineered Album, and 1:12:08.120 --> 1:12:11.200 I didn't think either one deserved to be there. But 1:12:11.240 --> 1:12:14.200 that's okay. There's a couple of several albums, three or 1:12:14.240 --> 1:12:16.480 four albums that I always thought should have been nominated 1:12:16.479 --> 1:12:19.920 that weren't. But whatever. But I was double nominated, and 1:12:19.960 --> 1:12:23.040 I remember one of them. It cracked me up because 1:12:23.120 --> 1:12:26.599 it was recorded by the kind of thing you're talking about. 1:12:26.640 --> 1:12:30.280 It was several engineers. They were all professional, but it 1:12:30.400 --> 1:12:33.960 definitely there was not a cohesive kind of thing. You know. 1:12:35.640 --> 1:12:39.080 I think a lot of engineers. I've always thought of 1:12:39.120 --> 1:12:42.439 myself as a musician that happens to who learned how 1:12:42.439 --> 1:12:45.960 to engineer, not an engineer that learned how to engineer, 1:12:46.000 --> 1:12:48.240 and that's what they want to do. I just it's 1:12:48.280 --> 1:12:51.320 like music. For me. First, it's all about music, and 1:12:51.800 --> 1:12:54.000 so when you get something that someone else is recorded 1:12:54.000 --> 1:12:56.920 and you're adding to it, you want to think about 1:12:57.000 --> 1:13:00.000 what's there now as you start to add other things, 1:13:00.000 --> 1:13:02.760 things to make it fit in. Richie Podler taught me 1:13:03.200 --> 1:13:06.719 in the beginning that the mix starts with the tracking session. 1:13:07.160 --> 1:13:09.800 You start right away with the first thing you put down, 1:13:10.120 --> 1:13:13.120 and then you know, he said, and I've tried to 1:13:13.120 --> 1:13:16.280 do it. Every overdub you make, you're putting it where 1:13:16.320 --> 1:13:18.320 you want it in the mix. You're trying to do that. 1:13:19.479 --> 1:13:22.200 The joke with another guy that was like that, Al Schmidt. 1:13:22.520 --> 1:13:24.680 The joke with al Schmidt was if he recorded it, 1:13:24.880 --> 1:13:26.960 you could put all the faders in a straight line 1:13:27.360 --> 1:13:29.760 and with a ruler put them all up at a 1:13:29.760 --> 1:13:32.200 certain level and just push the vocal up a couple 1:13:32.280 --> 1:13:36.400 over that and there's your mix, and whereas that's not 1:13:36.439 --> 1:13:38.600 one hundred percent accurate, it's not that far from the 1:13:38.640 --> 1:13:41.720 truth either. The idea of again of trying to make 1:13:41.720 --> 1:13:43.800 the mix as you go. But a lot of times 1:13:43.800 --> 1:13:46.920 some engineers they know the kind of sound they like 1:13:47.000 --> 1:13:49.960 to get on any instrument and it doesn't fit with 1:13:50.000 --> 1:13:51.760 what's going on, but they're going to do what they 1:13:51.760 --> 1:13:53.200 want to do. I don't know. 1:13:54.000 --> 1:13:58.200 Okay, someone sends you a tape for at this point, 1:13:58.200 --> 1:14:00.840 it won't be a tape in a file. You put 1:14:00.840 --> 1:14:03.840 it up. Then how do you build your mix? 1:14:05.680 --> 1:14:08.320 Okay? For the most I always ask for a rough mix. 1:14:08.520 --> 1:14:11.799 I always want to hear what I'm what I'm doing. 1:14:12.400 --> 1:14:14.960 I may if I if I if my initial reaction 1:14:15.160 --> 1:14:18.479 is oh, that's neat, I may want to listen back 1:14:18.479 --> 1:14:22.080 to that while I'm mixing. If it's like I don't 1:14:22.120 --> 1:14:24.479 get it, then that may be the last time I 1:14:24.520 --> 1:14:28.640 listened to it. But it depends on the kind of 1:14:28.680 --> 1:14:31.120 song and a lot of different aspects. But for the 1:14:31.160 --> 1:14:34.920 most part, if I can generalize after I've listened to 1:14:35.000 --> 1:14:40.280 the to the rough, I usually start with a drum 1:14:40.360 --> 1:14:43.559 sound that I think is going to make sense, And 1:14:43.600 --> 1:14:46.240 that depends on you know, how the drums are recorded 1:14:46.280 --> 1:14:48.960 and what I can do to them for what I think. 1:14:49.000 --> 1:14:51.639 If it's a powerful song and the drums aren't that powerful, 1:14:51.920 --> 1:14:54.840 I'll do whatever I can to make them more powerful, uh, 1:14:55.600 --> 1:15:00.760 that kind of thing. And and I'll usually build the track, 1:15:01.000 --> 1:15:03.880 you know, with the bass bass then and then if 1:15:03.880 --> 1:15:06.120 it's a guitar song, the guitars, if it's a keyboard song, 1:15:06.200 --> 1:15:09.599 the keyboards, and flush out all that stuff to get 1:15:10.120 --> 1:15:13.320 a track that feels good to me, and then put 1:15:13.320 --> 1:15:18.080 in the vocal and background vocals and then start adjusting 1:15:18.160 --> 1:15:23.120 things to surround the vocal and background vocals. 1:15:24.160 --> 1:15:27.919 Okay, my experience in the studio, which is certainly very limited, 1:15:28.600 --> 1:15:33.559 but traditionally the engineer only says yes or if they 1:15:33.600 --> 1:15:37.760 have a different opinion, it's very mild. They don't stand up. 1:15:37.760 --> 1:15:40.920 What's your experience being an engineer vis a v being 1:15:40.960 --> 1:15:42.799 a producer, which you've also done. 1:15:45.000 --> 1:15:49.680 Well before. When I had extremely limited experience going back 1:15:49.720 --> 1:16:00.160 to CBS and Babs, is that I remember, not on 1:16:00.200 --> 1:16:03.639 that first album, but I remember on a subsequent album 1:16:04.000 --> 1:16:07.280 standing up to her and saying, no, you shouldn't do that. 1:16:07.680 --> 1:16:09.479 And I said, I wrote that in the book. You know, 1:16:09.520 --> 1:16:12.880 I don't know if that's whatever I said. We had 1:16:12.920 --> 1:16:15.439 hit it off pretty well from the beginning, and I 1:16:15.479 --> 1:16:17.680 really enjoyed and I've always enjoyed working with her. But 1:16:18.439 --> 1:16:21.760 I'm not afraid to tell an artist no if they've 1:16:21.800 --> 1:16:25.400 got if they've gotten us up on a branch and 1:16:25.439 --> 1:16:28.559 they're wanting me to saw it off, so you know, 1:16:28.800 --> 1:16:31.640 tell them no, But you say and here's why. And 1:16:32.760 --> 1:16:35.160 most of the time they'll respect that. You know, they 1:16:35.760 --> 1:16:38.479 they've hired you to do a job, and I'm telling 1:16:38.479 --> 1:16:41.000 you that. You know, if I'm doing my job, I've 1:16:41.040 --> 1:16:42.759 got to tell you that I don't think you should 1:16:42.760 --> 1:16:46.080 do this, and here's why. So that doesn't have to 1:16:46.080 --> 1:16:51.599 happen that often, but it does happen now. In mixing, 1:16:51.640 --> 1:16:57.280 that's a different thing. I've always said I'm not I 1:16:57.320 --> 1:16:59.320 have no ego with regard I don't think there's a 1:16:59.320 --> 1:17:01.719 proof I don't have any or with regard to mixing. 1:17:01.880 --> 1:17:05.160 I get a mix, I think feels good, you got changes, 1:17:05.200 --> 1:17:07.240 I'll start making changes. We're not going to lose that 1:17:07.280 --> 1:17:10.519 mix anymore these days, especially, I can always go back 1:17:10.520 --> 1:17:15.080 and pick it up where I left off. But but 1:17:15.960 --> 1:17:18.880 I don't I don't mind you asking you know, I 1:17:18.880 --> 1:17:21.719 don't think there's anything as one perfect mix and nothing 1:17:21.720 --> 1:17:27.080 else works. We talked about that already, and I want 1:17:27.240 --> 1:17:29.519 I want the artist to be happy. As I always said, 1:17:30.040 --> 1:17:32.320 their name is in big letters on the front of 1:17:32.360 --> 1:17:35.040 the album. My name is on little teeny letters on 1:17:35.080 --> 1:17:38.120 the back of the album, if not inside. So I 1:17:38.160 --> 1:17:40.720 want them to be happy. And as far as I know, 1:17:40.880 --> 1:17:43.880 I have very good relationship with everyone I worked with. 1:17:44.600 --> 1:17:48.400 So for you personally, what was the difference between producing 1:17:48.439 --> 1:17:49.880 and engineering. 1:17:51.760 --> 1:17:56.800 Control? I mean, in a word, you know, obviously much 1:17:57.080 --> 1:18:03.519 added responsibility producers the person responsible for there once was 1:18:03.520 --> 1:18:06.959 nothing and now there's an album. It was literally produced 1:18:07.280 --> 1:18:12.240 from nothing, so you've got a lot more You've got 1:18:12.240 --> 1:18:14.040 a lot more control, but a lot more pressure on 1:18:14.320 --> 1:18:19.559 all the different pieces. And that's I mean, that's what 1:18:19.600 --> 1:18:22.920 I love the most. But it just you know, it 1:18:22.920 --> 1:18:27.120 doesn't always work. You know, it's a matter of you know, 1:18:27.280 --> 1:18:29.479 both of them, I've always said, both of them are 1:18:29.640 --> 1:18:32.759 servants roles. You're there to serve the artist and their music. 1:18:33.280 --> 1:18:37.240 That's the most important thing. So it's not about my way, 1:18:38.520 --> 1:18:42.040 like I have no problem arguing with somebody. But again, 1:18:42.160 --> 1:18:45.599 their names on the front, so Okay, if you want 1:18:45.600 --> 1:18:47.160 to do it, we'll do it. But I don't agree. 1:18:48.439 --> 1:18:52.760 As a producer, how much did you put your tentacles 1:18:52.840 --> 1:18:56.360 into the creative end of it? Whereas an engineer is 1:18:56.400 --> 1:19:00.200 kneeling the sound, a producer, certainly talking about Richard, be 1:19:00.240 --> 1:19:03.559 selecting the material, but also could say, hey, you need 1:19:03.600 --> 1:19:06.040 a bridge here, let's flip it out, let's start with 1:19:06.040 --> 1:19:08.920 a chorus, or you know, to what degree would you 1:19:08.960 --> 1:19:10.080 put your hands in there. 1:19:12.280 --> 1:19:19.040 I've always equated that aspect as as a contractor. A 1:19:19.040 --> 1:19:21.320 guy that comes into paint or fix whatever's on. He 1:19:21.360 --> 1:19:24.920 goes into one room and it's perfect, doesn't need anything, 1:19:25.000 --> 1:19:27.160 if paint's good and everything. He walks into the next room. 1:19:27.320 --> 1:19:29.680 Oh this this needs a paint job for sure. He 1:19:29.720 --> 1:19:31.960 goes in the next room. Oh my gosh, look at it. 1:19:31.960 --> 1:19:34.040 We're gonna have to bust open that wall and put 1:19:34.120 --> 1:19:36.800 new drywall in, then mud it, and then we'll paint it. 1:19:37.200 --> 1:19:42.519 You do what's what's required, and that that that varies 1:19:42.760 --> 1:19:45.960 within the same album, sometimes not just from artists to artists, 1:19:46.280 --> 1:19:49.400 but for a group that some people hate Pablo Cruz 1:19:49.600 --> 1:19:56.160 wink wink, that that I produced, for instance, I was 1:19:56.800 --> 1:20:00.960 the I was much more involved in on the second 1:20:01.000 --> 1:20:03.880 album I did with them, which was their fourth album. 1:20:04.120 --> 1:20:07.200 I was much more involved in the trenches than I 1:20:07.360 --> 1:20:12.240 was on the previous album because the previous album, which 1:20:12.320 --> 1:20:13.760 was the one that had what You're Going to Do, 1:20:13.800 --> 1:20:17.320 that had the first big hit. They now it was 1:20:17.400 --> 1:20:20.719 like the fourth record was like most artists sophomore record 1:20:20.720 --> 1:20:23.360 if the first record hits, Now they're out on the road, 1:20:24.040 --> 1:20:26.519 they're doing interviews, on and on and on. They don't 1:20:26.560 --> 1:20:28.640 have time to write. So we did a lot of 1:20:28.640 --> 1:20:33.320 that writing in the studio, and so there it was. 1:20:33.360 --> 1:20:35.599 I was a lot more involved. 1:20:35.600 --> 1:20:40.559 For instance, Okay, they were in the seventies and certainly 1:20:40.600 --> 1:20:44.360 the sixties, there were people like Richard who were producers. 1:20:45.120 --> 1:20:47.680 They came from the musical creative inn and then as 1:20:47.720 --> 1:20:52.880 the years went by, you had more engineers that became producers, 1:20:53.680 --> 1:20:57.479 and you were sort of different that you straddled both camps. 1:20:57.960 --> 1:21:01.719 But I thought that when the engineers became a producers, 1:21:01.760 --> 1:21:04.840 a lot of them weren't really that creative. They could 1:21:04.960 --> 1:21:08.160 nael the sound, but sometimes you know, when a being 1:21:08.280 --> 1:21:11.120 needed more. Did you any observations. 1:21:10.320 --> 1:21:16.439 There, Well, you know, I don't I'm not going to 1:21:16.520 --> 1:21:19.160 bad mouth any particular people. But yeah, I mean some 1:21:19.200 --> 1:21:23.960 people are are better at whatever skills. You know, just 1:21:23.960 --> 1:21:27.400 because someone's a great engineer doesn't mean that he has 1:21:27.479 --> 1:21:30.200 the horsepower on the creative side to help an artist. 1:21:31.800 --> 1:21:35.880 So you definitely could see that. And the other The 1:21:35.920 --> 1:21:37.680 other thing is that a lot of times, you know, 1:21:38.160 --> 1:21:40.360 I got to tell you when Clive, when I had 1:21:40.360 --> 1:21:45.759 that first conversation with Clive, my nervous conversation on the phone, 1:21:45.920 --> 1:21:49.000 you know, he didn't even believe that engineers should produce. 1:21:49.720 --> 1:21:52.160 He said, look here, you know what you should do 1:21:52.360 --> 1:21:54.640 has come to work for me. As an engineer. You 1:21:54.720 --> 1:21:58.280 work with an artist like Roy Holly did with Simon 1:21:58.320 --> 1:22:00.839 and Garfunkel, and then when they fire or their producer, 1:22:00.960 --> 1:22:04.040 as they always will, you're in the driver's seat. You 1:22:04.080 --> 1:22:06.920 step into the driver's seat. And I literally said to him, no, 1:22:06.920 --> 1:22:08.920 I don't want to do that. That's not what I 1:22:08.960 --> 1:22:11.360 want to do. You know, if I can't make it 1:22:11.400 --> 1:22:14.639 on my own, then I don't make it, period. And 1:22:15.360 --> 1:22:17.559 what can I say? It's funny, I haven't thought of 1:22:17.600 --> 1:22:21.519 that until just now in a long long time that 1:22:21.640 --> 1:22:23.200 I stood up to him kind of in a way, 1:22:23.400 --> 1:22:25.720 and he went with me anyway. 1:22:26.280 --> 1:22:30.120 So you work with Richard on Barbara Streisian. What do 1:22:30.160 --> 1:22:30.760 you do after that? 1:22:32.720 --> 1:22:36.960 Well, we talked about no secrets, I. 1:22:37.040 --> 1:22:40.360 Well, no secrets for Electra. So at what point do 1:22:40.479 --> 1:22:44.760 you stop working for CBS. 1:22:45.520 --> 1:22:50.639 When Clive closed the studio, plain and simple, I think, 1:22:51.720 --> 1:22:57.000 which was yeah, which was actually very good timing because 1:22:57.960 --> 1:23:01.320 you know, Richard had done the first Harry Nielsen album, 1:23:01.439 --> 1:23:05.000 Nielsen Schmielsen in England, and Harry was good friends with 1:23:05.160 --> 1:23:09.679 Ringo and he introduced the two of them and they 1:23:09.720 --> 1:23:14.439 talked then about doing an album someday. And so when 1:23:15.840 --> 1:23:19.120 you know, Clive has closed the studio and I'm working 1:23:19.120 --> 1:23:23.280 independently and whatnot, and then Richard calls me one day 1:23:23.280 --> 1:23:25.280 and says, I'm going to do an album with Ringo 1:23:25.479 --> 1:23:26.840 and I want you to do it with me the 1:23:26.840 --> 1:23:32.040 whole way. And I said, wow, well that sounds like fun, 1:23:32.640 --> 1:23:34.559 and indeed it certainly was. 1:23:35.160 --> 1:23:38.800 Okay. Everybody has their heyday where you don't have enough 1:23:38.840 --> 1:23:42.000 time to do all the work that you would like 1:23:42.120 --> 1:23:47.000 to do. But at what point do you start you know, 1:23:47.280 --> 1:23:49.840 you just wait for the phone to ring or do 1:23:49.920 --> 1:23:53.080 you start working in in order to get jobs? 1:23:54.720 --> 1:23:59.040 No back and Clive one of the things after he 1:23:59.120 --> 1:24:03.160 hired me. One of the things he said a lot 1:24:03.160 --> 1:24:05.559 of I've got a lot of different pieces of wisdom 1:24:05.560 --> 1:24:08.439 from him, and it's something I'd never thought about. But 1:24:08.479 --> 1:24:10.439 he said, Bill, this is a business of what have 1:24:10.520 --> 1:24:14.479 you done lately? The credits mean everything. And that went 1:24:14.560 --> 1:24:17.280 with what Richie Peddler had told me, you know, a 1:24:17.360 --> 1:24:19.920 year and a half or something before that, when he 1:24:19.960 --> 1:24:23.320 said basically the same thing. He said, the credits are 1:24:23.360 --> 1:24:26.719 more important than the money you make on a project, 1:24:26.960 --> 1:24:29.160 the money you're going to spend and it'll be gone, 1:24:29.479 --> 1:24:32.520 the credit you're going to live with. And Clive modified 1:24:32.560 --> 1:24:37.160 it to say what have you done lately? And so 1:24:37.280 --> 1:24:41.040 that was it. It was just, you know, the record 1:24:41.040 --> 1:24:46.920 companies have the golden goose philosophy, and if this guy 1:24:47.000 --> 1:24:50.559 laid golden eggs with this artist, bring him over. Let's 1:24:50.560 --> 1:24:52.880 get him here and have him lay some eggs for us. 1:24:53.200 --> 1:24:56.600 And that goes. It goes for producers, of course, and 1:24:56.720 --> 1:24:59.479 to a less lesser degree, maybe not from the record company, 1:24:59.479 --> 1:25:04.480 more from the other producers that making the same observation 1:25:04.920 --> 1:25:14.479 and hiring of an engineer, well. 1:25:14.360 --> 1:25:18.200 You've been doing it for sixty years, so is it 1:25:18.240 --> 1:25:20.639 the type of thing where the work has always come 1:25:20.680 --> 1:25:23.640 to you, or if you had to flush that it 1:25:23.680 --> 1:25:25.400 has you haven't had to say, well, you know, I 1:25:25.439 --> 1:25:29.240 better network, or I better you know, make relationships, or 1:25:29.280 --> 1:25:31.559 I may call people. What do you got going? It's 1:25:31.600 --> 1:25:32.719 always come to you. 1:25:32.720 --> 1:25:36.080 No, it's always come to me. And I made a 1:25:36.080 --> 1:25:39.000 big mistake. Well I don't know how big it was, 1:25:39.080 --> 1:25:46.440 but it was when the era of managers for producers 1:25:46.479 --> 1:25:52.839 and engineers started. I remember having a meeting with Michael Austin, 1:25:53.080 --> 1:25:57.200 Mo Austin's son at Warner Ruthers, who was the head 1:25:57.200 --> 1:26:00.400 of A and R at that point, about an artist 1:26:00.560 --> 1:26:04.080 something for me to produce, and he said, you know what, 1:26:04.720 --> 1:26:06.599 I don't have anything right now. But you know, Bill, 1:26:06.640 --> 1:26:11.200 I don't even I don't even pick producers anymore. I call, 1:26:11.720 --> 1:26:14.880 you know, there were five or four or five at 1:26:14.880 --> 1:26:20.559 that point managers of producers. I call one of them 1:26:20.600 --> 1:26:22.439 and I say, I've got this artist, who do you 1:26:22.439 --> 1:26:25.200 think would be good for it? They do my job 1:26:25.280 --> 1:26:28.639 for me. And I met with a couple of them, 1:26:28.680 --> 1:26:31.800 and I always thought, you know, if I want someone 1:26:31.840 --> 1:26:36.519 to quote represent me, I wanted them to, you know, 1:26:36.640 --> 1:26:39.200 to represent me. And I didn't like the people. You know, 1:26:39.479 --> 1:26:42.559 I just didn't hit the right ones, I guess or whatever. 1:26:44.040 --> 1:26:45.960 Well, do you feel you missed out on any work 1:26:45.960 --> 1:26:46.599 as a result? 1:26:46.600 --> 1:26:53.000 Thereof absolutely, without question. Like I said at the point 1:26:53.000 --> 1:26:55.479 that you know Michael Austin, I'm sure it wasn't the 1:26:55.479 --> 1:26:58.439 only one and I made out of I don't remember 1:26:58.439 --> 1:26:59.880 if I had met with any of them. That may 1:26:59.880 --> 1:27:02.120 have been. That meeting with Michael may have been the 1:27:02.240 --> 1:27:04.400 exact reason I went out and met with a couple, 1:27:05.479 --> 1:27:08.400 but I'm pretty sure that they could. They could have 1:27:08.439 --> 1:27:10.439 done it, They could have got me work. 1:27:11.560 --> 1:27:14.240 But it sounds like you had enough work anyway, or 1:27:14.320 --> 1:27:16.880 is that untrue? 1:27:17.200 --> 1:27:23.280 Well, you know, I think I think the the heyday 1:27:23.439 --> 1:27:28.040 shall we call it, could have lasted longer, that's all. 1:27:28.560 --> 1:27:32.080 But I'm not complaining in any way, shape or form. 1:27:32.120 --> 1:27:35.519 I've had a very rich career, that's for darn shore 1:27:36.720 --> 1:27:39.040 and still do. I mean, you know, I'm fortunate that 1:27:39.120 --> 1:27:42.680 I'm seventy eight years old, healthy as I can possibly be. 1:27:42.920 --> 1:27:45.280 That's what the doctors just told me two weeks ago, 1:27:45.720 --> 1:27:48.200 and had The main thing is which a lot of 1:27:48.360 --> 1:27:51.120 my guys, peers my age don't have. I have all 1:27:51.200 --> 1:27:54.360 the energy and passion for music that I had in 1:27:54.439 --> 1:27:57.960 nineteen sixty four when we got signed to Decker Records. 1:27:58.280 --> 1:28:01.200 I still there's nothing I'd rather do then, you know, 1:28:01.240 --> 1:28:04.240 I noticed something early on in the business about all 1:28:04.240 --> 1:28:08.160 the musicians getting divorces and going on a second marriage. 1:28:08.680 --> 1:28:12.599 And I have I wondered if you know, musicians are 1:28:12.640 --> 1:28:16.040 a weird lot and creatives in general, I guess, but 1:28:16.680 --> 1:28:21.640 they you know, it's they're very passionate, you know. We 1:28:21.840 --> 1:28:24.639 I'll put myself in there, We are very passionate about 1:28:24.640 --> 1:28:28.759 what we do. And that to a woman that, for instance, 1:28:29.120 --> 1:28:31.559 grew up with a dad that wore a suit and tie, 1:28:31.920 --> 1:28:36.040 was home at five o'clock every day eating dinner, that 1:28:36.160 --> 1:28:39.519 doesn't always flush well with the guy that will stay 1:28:39.520 --> 1:28:42.280 after work for two hours hanging with his buddy's jamming 1:28:42.479 --> 1:28:46.680 or whatever. And I know I saw that in the 1:28:46.760 --> 1:28:51.320 divorces of a couple of people, for sure. And it's 1:28:51.320 --> 1:28:55.040 funny and funny enough. My wife of forty years now, 1:28:56.320 --> 1:29:00.559 my first wife who divorced me, was a musician, so 1:29:00.640 --> 1:29:03.160 I had nothing to do with that. But my current 1:29:03.200 --> 1:29:08.000 wife has had a father that was an oil executive 1:29:08.000 --> 1:29:09.880 who was home every day at five o'clock at mowing 1:29:09.880 --> 1:29:13.920 the lawn on the weekends, but she sawned up. I 1:29:13.960 --> 1:29:16.200 insisted we had a long engagement. She was in law 1:29:16.200 --> 1:29:19.600 school in Waco. She was at Baylor Law when I 1:29:19.640 --> 1:29:22.599 met her, and I insisted she do her last year 1:29:23.080 --> 1:29:25.559 in la so that she could for a year she 1:29:25.600 --> 1:29:29.880 could see the crazy people, the crazy schedule, everything that 1:29:30.000 --> 1:29:33.120 was there. And funny enough, she did her last year 1:29:33.160 --> 1:29:36.920 at Loyola where I did my one semester, and I 1:29:37.000 --> 1:29:39.280 went back and sat in the same classrooms a couple 1:29:39.320 --> 1:29:40.920 of times to watch a session. 1:29:43.000 --> 1:29:47.080 So when you would say, hey, I got to work 1:29:47.120 --> 1:29:49.559 for the weekend, what would your wife say? 1:29:51.439 --> 1:29:54.040 Well, first of all, I did my best to make 1:29:54.439 --> 1:29:58.600 the family a priority, so I would do my best. 1:29:58.840 --> 1:30:02.400 You know, the the initial the knee jerk is no. 1:30:04.000 --> 1:30:06.439 But if it was something that I really thought that 1:30:06.520 --> 1:30:11.760 I had to she was very understanding and accommodating, and 1:30:12.439 --> 1:30:14.600 so if the relationship worked beautifully. 1:30:15.400 --> 1:30:19.280 So the first wife who was a musician, was it 1:30:19.439 --> 1:30:23.280 the music business and the music business lifestyle they caused 1:30:23.280 --> 1:30:27.320 the divorce or just like everything, it doesn't necessarily work out. 1:30:28.840 --> 1:30:31.920 The latter, for sure had nothing to do with the business. 1:30:32.520 --> 1:30:35.519 She loved the business. In fact, The odd thing was 1:30:36.840 --> 1:30:38.880 she said she was divorcing me because she was tired 1:30:38.920 --> 1:30:42.160 of being missus Bill Schnee. And then as soon as 1:30:42.160 --> 1:30:44.639 we were divorced, she went out and tried to get 1:30:44.640 --> 1:30:48.760 work as a producer with the last name Schnee. So 1:30:48.880 --> 1:30:51.000 go figure. I don't know what to say. No, it 1:30:51.040 --> 1:30:52.360 had nothing to do with the business. 1:30:52.960 --> 1:30:57.000 Okay, so you work with Richard Barber Skreis in Ringo 1:30:57.360 --> 1:31:02.719 no secrets. How did things other than Richard projects come about? 1:31:05.320 --> 1:31:08.880 Just what you were talking about earlier? You know, someone 1:31:08.920 --> 1:31:12.680 calls me to mix a record. In fact, here's a 1:31:12.760 --> 1:31:17.560 funny story. Early on. I'm gonna say, I have to 1:31:17.600 --> 1:31:20.680 look up Touch Me in the Morning, whatever you that was. 1:31:21.200 --> 1:31:26.280 I'm mixing in a studio seventy something, and the girl 1:31:26.320 --> 1:31:28.760 buzzes in and says, there's a phone call for you 1:31:28.800 --> 1:31:31.400 online one. I pick it up and goes, hi, Bill, 1:31:31.680 --> 1:31:33.800 this is Michael Master. You may know me if my 1:31:33.960 --> 1:31:35.960 Touch Me in the Morning by Diana Ross that I 1:31:36.000 --> 1:31:40.759 wrote and produced, And I hung up the phone and 1:31:42.160 --> 1:31:44.559 that I was a little wild in my early days, 1:31:44.720 --> 1:31:46.639 and I just thought, if that's the way the guy 1:31:46.680 --> 1:31:49.280 introduced it, if that's for real, I don't know that 1:31:49.320 --> 1:31:51.439 I want to have anything to do with him. But whatever. 1:31:52.320 --> 1:31:54.680 So the girl buzzes in and says, evidently you got 1:31:54.720 --> 1:31:56.920 cut off, and I said, just take a message, and 1:31:56.960 --> 1:32:01.720 I never called him back. Now, my wife, Sally is 1:32:01.800 --> 1:32:06.559 doing law school at Loyola, finishing her last year at Loyola, 1:32:07.040 --> 1:32:09.679 and I'm in my studio and I get a call 1:32:09.720 --> 1:32:13.559 from Michael Master to mix some songs that he's recorded 1:32:13.600 --> 1:32:16.680 on Peeble Bryson. And he didn't give me the same introduction, 1:32:16.800 --> 1:32:22.080 which was a good thing, and so I'm mixing, as 1:32:22.080 --> 1:32:25.160 it turns out, the big hit if ever, you're in 1:32:25.240 --> 1:32:29.080 my arms again, and Michael was. He's no longer with us, 1:32:29.120 --> 1:32:31.280 but he was, by the way. I don't know if 1:32:31.320 --> 1:32:33.719 you know that name, but he was a Chicago lawyer 1:32:34.000 --> 1:32:37.000 that sat up in his high rise dreaming of making 1:32:37.080 --> 1:32:40.360 music and he realized that dream and did quite well 1:32:42.680 --> 1:32:46.519 and as a songwriter and producer. So anyway, we're mixing 1:32:46.560 --> 1:32:49.800 the song and Sally would between classes. There was like 1:32:49.840 --> 1:32:55.400 a three hour break. Loyola wasn't that far downtown LA 1:32:55.880 --> 1:32:58.280 from my studio, so she would come to the studio 1:32:58.360 --> 1:33:01.720 and read or take an apple whatever. So she was 1:33:01.760 --> 1:33:04.559 going back to class and they had met. I had 1:33:04.600 --> 1:33:07.639 introduced them, and she's walking through the studio and Michael says, 1:33:08.160 --> 1:33:09.680 bring her in, bring her in. So I hit the 1:33:09.720 --> 1:33:11.439 talk back and said, can you come in a second. 1:33:11.479 --> 1:33:13.800 Sally came in. He said, let her sit in your chair. 1:33:14.000 --> 1:33:17.880 So she sits in my chair and he said, I 1:33:17.920 --> 1:33:21.719 want to play her the single, you know, average person 1:33:21.840 --> 1:33:24.920 kind of thing. So he sits. She sits in the 1:33:25.000 --> 1:33:27.719 chair and he's right next to her, and he looks 1:33:27.760 --> 1:33:30.040 at her and I say this by she had to 1:33:30.080 --> 1:33:32.519 meet some of the interesting people that we find in 1:33:32.560 --> 1:33:35.320 the record business. And he turns to her and says, 1:33:35.960 --> 1:33:43.160 let's actualize our peak experiences. Shall we wait a minute. 1:33:43.160 --> 1:33:45.760 I'm engaged to this woman, you leave your peak experiences. 1:33:45.880 --> 1:33:49.479 So I pushed play and then he's sitting there and 1:33:49.520 --> 1:33:53.040 she's looking straight ahead and he's right in, you know, 1:33:53.680 --> 1:33:56.760 a foot from her, a foot from her left ear, 1:33:57.439 --> 1:34:00.280 looking at her eyes and mimicking the words. And when 1:34:00.320 --> 1:34:02.040 it got to the chorus, you know, the high point, 1:34:02.040 --> 1:34:04.840 he's pointing his finger and raising his shoulders and you know, 1:34:05.000 --> 1:34:08.439 just going, you know, all the emotion you could ever 1:34:08.520 --> 1:34:12.639 ask for. And I'm sure he was very disappointed when 1:34:12.680 --> 1:34:15.920 she was done. She was scared spitless. She'd never seen 1:34:15.960 --> 1:34:18.760 anything like that, and quite frankly, I don't think I 1:34:18.800 --> 1:34:19.240 had either. 1:34:20.280 --> 1:34:24.160 But whatever, So, how'd you end up working with Steely Dan? 1:34:26.720 --> 1:34:31.400 Very good question, and the answer is something that funny 1:34:31.520 --> 1:34:35.160 enough I just found out. So Gary Katz, the producer 1:34:35.160 --> 1:34:37.880 of Steely Dan, calls me one day and says, would 1:34:37.880 --> 1:34:40.519 you like to record the next Steely Dan album? And 1:34:41.040 --> 1:34:43.080 I said, let me think about it. Yes, actually I 1:34:43.160 --> 1:34:46.840 think that sounds like fun. And I got off the 1:34:46.840 --> 1:34:48.880 phone and I went wait a minute, because a couple 1:34:48.880 --> 1:34:51.840 of my friends, Michael Omarty and Steve Jeff Paccaro, had 1:34:51.880 --> 1:34:54.920 played on the previous albums, and it told me about 1:34:54.960 --> 1:34:58.240 their maniacal ways in the studio, and as I said earlier, 1:34:58.320 --> 1:35:01.679 that's not my jam to go quick and move fast 1:35:01.720 --> 1:35:05.400 and keep things going. And so I was a little 1:35:05.479 --> 1:35:08.519 nervous about it. But what was interesting at the time, 1:35:08.680 --> 1:35:11.240 they never asked me. They just said tell us where 1:35:11.240 --> 1:35:15.760 to go. So I picked a studio that was originally 1:35:15.800 --> 1:35:19.360 Mike Kurbs that I went in for my one time 1:35:19.400 --> 1:35:22.760 trying to produce the La Teens, which had been now 1:35:22.800 --> 1:35:29.479 bought by another group, and was a very good studio, 1:35:29.720 --> 1:35:37.479 excellent studio called Producers Workshop, and I just said, Okay, 1:35:37.520 --> 1:35:40.439 there's a studio in Hollywood Boulevard that I really like 1:35:40.520 --> 1:35:42.760 working in. And as far as I know, they never 1:35:42.800 --> 1:35:46.000 went to visit it or anything. So they just showed it. 1:35:46.400 --> 1:35:49.080 They showed up, and we did it. We did what 1:35:49.160 --> 1:35:52.400 we did, and as it turns out, that album was 1:35:52.439 --> 1:35:56.639 different than every album before or after in that they 1:35:56.640 --> 1:36:01.240 did it with entirely studio musicians. I'd used studio musicians 1:36:01.240 --> 1:36:04.360 obviously on the previous album or two in with them, 1:36:04.400 --> 1:36:12.040 but this was all studio musicians, like Union sessions one o'clock, 1:36:13.160 --> 1:36:19.400 one to four and six to nine and all Union players. 1:36:19.800 --> 1:36:23.599 Larry Carlton, the great guitar player, had done takedown sheets. 1:36:24.240 --> 1:36:28.920 The guys had always done a piano bassed demo and 1:36:28.960 --> 1:36:30.840 they would send that to Larry, who would do a 1:36:30.960 --> 1:36:34.280 takedown sheet so of the chords and where things went. 1:36:34.400 --> 1:36:37.519 So the band would hear their demo and go from there, 1:36:38.400 --> 1:36:41.479 and they were just there was a no drug zone. 1:36:41.520 --> 1:36:43.720 I think that might have been unique, and at least 1:36:43.760 --> 1:36:48.400 for the tracking, which is all I did, and it 1:36:48.439 --> 1:36:51.439 couldn't have gone smoother or better or easier. So I 1:36:51.520 --> 1:36:55.120 was completely wrong about all that, but I always wondered 1:36:56.160 --> 1:37:00.800 why they hired me. And so that was for the 1:37:00.840 --> 1:37:04.360 album Asia. So a year and a half ago, I 1:37:04.400 --> 1:37:08.400 guess been almost two years ago now. A company called 1:37:08.400 --> 1:37:12.559 Acoustic Sounds that basically licenses albums puts them on LPs. 1:37:13.640 --> 1:37:18.280 Redid that for Asia at forty five rpm, which takes 1:37:18.320 --> 1:37:22.560 two discs instead of one y for forty five rpm. A, 1:37:22.720 --> 1:37:26.040 it sounds better and B when you're on a on 1:37:26.120 --> 1:37:29.320 an LP, when you the closer you get to the label, 1:37:29.520 --> 1:37:32.360 there's a kind of distortion that comes in. It's almost 1:37:32.400 --> 1:37:36.519 completely unavoidable. So this way stays out farther. So they 1:37:36.520 --> 1:37:40.680 do did it at forty five rpm. And and in 1:37:40.720 --> 1:37:44.080 anticipation of that, the owner of the company Acoustic Sounds, 1:37:44.120 --> 1:37:46.360 called and said, I want to do a zoom interview 1:37:46.840 --> 1:37:52.000 with you and Donald and Bernie Grunman who mastered the 1:37:52.040 --> 1:37:55.320 original in the seventies and mastered this forty five version. 1:37:55.680 --> 1:37:58.920 And I said great. So I did the zoom and 1:37:59.000 --> 1:38:02.639 when there was a lull, I said, Donald, there's something 1:38:02.680 --> 1:38:05.479 I've always wanted to ask you. Why did you guys 1:38:05.560 --> 1:38:09.559 hire me to do that record? And he said something like, well, 1:38:09.640 --> 1:38:11.920 we'd heard that you were this guy that got some 1:38:12.000 --> 1:38:15.800 incredible hi fi albums that just sounded incredible, and that's 1:38:15.840 --> 1:38:18.479 what we wanted to do. And I knew right away 1:38:18.520 --> 1:38:24.960 what it was a little history there, the direct to disc. 1:38:25.160 --> 1:38:27.000 I don't know how many people are familiar with that, 1:38:27.120 --> 1:38:30.439 are you by any chance? Yes? Familiar with director is? Yeah? 1:38:30.520 --> 1:38:34.320 So directed disc is where you recorded one side of 1:38:34.360 --> 1:38:38.880 an album. As the title says, direct to disc, the 1:38:38.960 --> 1:38:41.760 disc that is that they make on the lays that 1:38:41.800 --> 1:38:45.960 they make the LPs eventually out of. So what you 1:38:46.080 --> 1:38:49.920 don't do is you don't go to analog tape twice, 1:38:50.479 --> 1:38:52.800 first time in the multi track, second time on the 1:38:52.800 --> 1:38:55.400 two track. You only go through the electronics of a 1:38:55.439 --> 1:38:59.360 console once and by saving all of that, the sound 1:38:59.479 --> 1:39:04.400 quality is superb. It's very you know, almost identical to 1:39:04.439 --> 1:39:07.040 what's quote coming through the glass. It's a lot of 1:39:07.120 --> 1:39:13.200 pressure obviously because you're you're recording everything from start to finish, 1:39:13.280 --> 1:39:15.720 and when you when you were mixing from tape or 1:39:15.760 --> 1:39:19.360 these days from a computer, when you pull up the piano, 1:39:19.439 --> 1:39:22.240 it's the exact same piano part, the exact same dynamics. 1:39:22.439 --> 1:39:25.759 You know, everything is identical. It's locked in for life. 1:39:26.040 --> 1:39:29.240 When you're doing this. You know, you do one side 1:39:29.240 --> 1:39:31.760 of an album, takes fifteen minutes. Something from one side 1:39:31.760 --> 1:39:34.559 of the album, you take a twenty minute break, you 1:39:34.560 --> 1:39:37.240 do it again. You think they play identically to what 1:39:37.280 --> 1:39:40.559 they did before. No, you're mixing every time from get go, 1:39:41.120 --> 1:39:44.160 and sometimes it you know it. The opening cuts are 1:39:44.200 --> 1:39:48.439 the most dangerous in that regard, But you're the point 1:39:48.479 --> 1:39:51.640 being is that you're constantly mixing and there's no relaxing 1:39:51.720 --> 1:39:56.720 for a second, and if somebody makes a mistake, you 1:39:56.720 --> 1:39:59.240 know you're in You're in trouble. At the last song, 1:39:59.360 --> 1:40:01.559 you're in trouble because there's no editing of any kind. 1:40:01.840 --> 1:40:04.720 It's a lathe that cuts into a lacquer master a 1:40:04.800 --> 1:40:08.040 laquer disc, and so there's no stopping. So I had 1:40:08.080 --> 1:40:11.200 engineered Doug Sachs and his partner Lincoln my orga of 1:40:11.240 --> 1:40:13.759 it had the mastering lab that was directly in front 1:40:13.800 --> 1:40:18.000 of this studio. Had done a couple of records of 1:40:18.080 --> 1:40:22.559 Lincoln's music directed disc specifically for that reason because they 1:40:22.600 --> 1:40:27.360 sound so much better. And after the I engineered one, 1:40:27.640 --> 1:40:29.880 and after I engineered it, that was the most fun 1:40:29.920 --> 1:40:34.320 I'd ever had because theretofore you spent you know, two 1:40:34.479 --> 1:40:38.599 three whatever months six and the Ringo album six solid 1:40:38.640 --> 1:40:41.720 months of working on an album and then mixing and 1:40:42.160 --> 1:40:46.439 then mastering. Here in three days we had an album recorded, mixed, 1:40:46.479 --> 1:40:49.280 and mastered. And so when I went back to normal recording, 1:40:49.320 --> 1:40:53.120 it was like slow slow motion. So I went to 1:40:53.160 --> 1:40:55.360 Doug and asked, I really want to produce an album, 1:40:55.439 --> 1:40:59.200 and I wanted to I want to use a vocalist 1:40:59.600 --> 1:41:02.200 and main thing also I wanted to do contemporary, more 1:41:02.240 --> 1:41:05.720 contemporary music than what Lincoln did. And so it took 1:41:05.760 --> 1:41:08.000 me about a week or so to convince Doug to 1:41:08.080 --> 1:41:10.680 let me do it. It took him two months to convince Lincoln. 1:41:10.880 --> 1:41:13.559 Lincoln wasn't going for it. This is not our record label, 1:41:13.600 --> 1:41:15.639 and if we were going to hire someone, why would 1:41:15.680 --> 1:41:17.200 it be a kid? And are you sure he can 1:41:17.240 --> 1:41:19.360 do it? And on and on. I jumped through so 1:41:19.479 --> 1:41:22.439 many hoops, but we got it done. Funny part of 1:41:22.479 --> 1:41:24.240 that is that at that point in time, I'd only 1:41:24.240 --> 1:41:26.200 worked with two artists that I knew could step up 1:41:26.240 --> 1:41:28.360 to the mic on the last song and give a 1:41:28.400 --> 1:41:32.439 real performance. The first one was Barbara Streisan, who at 1:41:32.439 --> 1:41:36.160 that point I had done her three previous albums and 1:41:36.400 --> 1:41:40.519 I called her manager and got very close to this 1:41:40.960 --> 1:41:43.880 go away kid, you're bothering me. He had no time 1:41:43.920 --> 1:41:46.880 for it, and the only other person that I had 1:41:47.000 --> 1:41:50.439 just worked with. I recorded a couple of songs and 1:41:50.800 --> 1:41:55.439 mixed a new artist on Motown named Thelma Houston, who 1:41:55.520 --> 1:41:58.040 had a gorgeous sounding voice and sang like a bird, 1:41:58.640 --> 1:42:00.880 and so I talked to her about it. She loved 1:42:00.880 --> 1:42:02.600 the idea, and I went to Motown and got a 1:42:02.600 --> 1:42:06.840 loan out agreement, and that's what we did, and we did. 1:42:07.320 --> 1:42:10.080 I got the best band. When I look at the 1:42:10.120 --> 1:42:13.639 credits today, it's just it's astounding. That was. You couldn't 1:42:13.640 --> 1:42:16.240 get a better band if you tried in nineteen seventy 1:42:16.280 --> 1:42:21.760 five and did that record and it, yes, it was 1:42:21.800 --> 1:42:25.320 nominated for Best Engineered Album, and yes it was. You know, 1:42:25.360 --> 1:42:27.840 within a year, it was an every high fi store 1:42:27.920 --> 1:42:30.920 in the country. Because the weak link in an audio 1:42:31.120 --> 1:42:33.600 chain is the source. So if you give them a 1:42:33.640 --> 1:42:37.439 better sounding source, their amplifiers sound better, their speakers sound better, 1:42:37.520 --> 1:42:40.680 they just go better. So it was an every high 1:42:40.720 --> 1:42:46.960 fi store and it did incredibly well. Well. That's undoubtedly 1:42:47.600 --> 1:42:50.720 what Donald was making reference to when he said we'd 1:42:50.760 --> 1:42:53.599 heard about these records that you had done. I had 1:42:53.600 --> 1:42:56.080 engineered the previous one that Doug did, and now I 1:42:56.240 --> 1:43:01.120 produced and engineered that one. And what's what's really cool 1:43:03.080 --> 1:43:07.439 is that a I found out about why they hired 1:43:07.479 --> 1:43:12.519 me on that. And then this year in April, the 1:43:12.960 --> 1:43:16.519 film of Houston and Pressure Cooker album was entered into 1:43:16.560 --> 1:43:20.760 the National Recording Registry Library by the Library of Congress. 1:43:21.680 --> 1:43:24.920 Only six six hundred and thirty five records that are 1:43:24.920 --> 1:43:27.600 in there, and I have a couple of records I 1:43:27.640 --> 1:43:31.320 engineered that are in there, but including Asia. But I 1:43:31.320 --> 1:43:34.200 couldn't be more proud of this one. And and what 1:43:34.439 --> 1:43:35.280 what's come from it? 1:43:43.040 --> 1:43:46.639 Okay? Why did you not mix Asia? How'd you feel 1:43:46.680 --> 1:43:47.080 about that? 1:43:49.960 --> 1:43:53.800 Okay? When when we were done with the tracks, they came, 1:43:53.920 --> 1:43:56.559 the boys came to me the last day and they said, okay, 1:43:56.600 --> 1:43:59.000 we're going to go off and do overdubs. It's going 1:43:59.080 --> 1:44:02.680 to be you know, months of you know, experimenting with 1:44:02.720 --> 1:44:04.519 the tracks and seeing what we want to do and 1:44:04.520 --> 1:44:06.680 so on, but we want you to mix it when 1:44:06.720 --> 1:44:10.080 we're done. And I said, guys, don't I don't think 1:44:10.200 --> 1:44:12.400 it would work. And they looked at me and said, 1:44:12.439 --> 1:44:14.519 what do you mean. I said, I have a kind 1:44:14.520 --> 1:44:18.439 of a different mixing style, and I just, you know, 1:44:18.520 --> 1:44:22.040 I knew that they were microscope people. When you talk 1:44:22.080 --> 1:44:25.320 about trees, I mean, you know they should write the 1:44:25.360 --> 1:44:31.599 book because they and they said, well you'll try, won't you, 1:44:31.600 --> 1:44:34.200 you know, kind of sarcastically, and I said, yes, of course, 1:44:34.240 --> 1:44:36.800 I'll be glad to. So I think it was about 1:44:36.840 --> 1:44:41.000 five months later they called with the first song that 1:44:41.160 --> 1:44:43.639 was done, even though it turns out it wasn't done, 1:44:44.640 --> 1:44:48.559 but which was Josie When Josie comes home and we 1:44:48.640 --> 1:44:52.280 went into the studio and I got to mix up 1:44:52.280 --> 1:44:58.240 that I felt was really good, and I don't think 1:44:58.320 --> 1:45:01.720 Walter came in, only Gary Cats and Donald came in, 1:45:02.600 --> 1:45:05.439 and you know, Donald listened to it and he said, 1:45:05.800 --> 1:45:09.519 it feels really good. Oh thank you. He said, okay, 1:45:09.560 --> 1:45:14.799 well let's try this there. Okay, now again there's no computer. 1:45:15.240 --> 1:45:17.920 I'm sitting down. The thing starts. The way I would 1:45:17.960 --> 1:45:20.000 do it back then is I would mark the faders 1:45:20.000 --> 1:45:22.760 on a good starting point and then so I know 1:45:22.840 --> 1:45:25.960 that at least every time I start the mix, it's 1:45:25.960 --> 1:45:28.120 going to have the exact same starting point. Where it 1:45:28.160 --> 1:45:31.040 goes from there is up to my right brain. So 1:45:32.600 --> 1:45:36.680 I tried as he wanted this there and he liked it, 1:45:37.160 --> 1:45:42.400 said maybe we should try that here with that there? Yeah, 1:45:42.479 --> 1:45:46.960 with that there, And so it goes and for an hour, 1:45:47.360 --> 1:45:51.519 two hours, three hours, and finally I think it'd been 1:45:51.800 --> 1:45:54.679 like four hours. I'm worn out. I haven't got it. 1:45:54.720 --> 1:45:58.559 The right brain is asleep. It's on remote control. I can't. 1:45:58.600 --> 1:46:02.400 I don't feel anything anymore. And they knew it, and uh, 1:46:03.040 --> 1:46:05.400 and I pushed back from the chair and I said, guys, 1:46:05.760 --> 1:46:10.280 you've got an unbelievable record here, And you know I couldn't. 1:46:10.520 --> 1:46:13.040 I couldn't be happier. I wish I could be a 1:46:13.080 --> 1:46:15.519 part of it, but I it just it's not It's 1:46:15.520 --> 1:46:18.120 not going to work for me. And so there I was, 1:46:18.240 --> 1:46:21.200 and my good good friend Elliott Shiner, who had mixed 1:46:21.200 --> 1:46:25.200 the previous record, did a mixed most of that. Al 1:46:25.240 --> 1:46:29.879 Schmidt I think mixed one and and Uh did a 1:46:29.960 --> 1:46:32.640 you know, a wonderful job. I wish I believe me, 1:46:32.720 --> 1:46:33.439 I wish I could have. 1:46:34.400 --> 1:46:37.800 Okay, you were in the studio with them. Walter and 1:46:37.880 --> 1:46:41.599 Donald are really opinionated guys. You know what they want? 1:46:42.000 --> 1:46:44.080 What did Geary Katz ad? 1:46:48.360 --> 1:46:59.000 Oh? Boy, not much, not much at all it was 1:46:59.720 --> 1:47:03.560 he he kept the peace and he kept order, and 1:47:05.680 --> 1:47:10.320 nothing creatively, you know, nothing. It was as you say, 1:47:10.400 --> 1:47:14.240 it was primarily Donald and some walter on with regard 1:47:14.240 --> 1:47:17.599 to talking to the musicians and moving things the way 1:47:17.640 --> 1:47:18.680 they wanted them to go. 1:47:19.560 --> 1:47:23.120 Okay, we live in a as you mentioned earlier, inherently 1:47:23.320 --> 1:47:28.440 vinyl is compromised. Yeah, we're in an era of vinyl fetishism. 1:47:28.800 --> 1:47:32.560 What is your take on vinyl visa the digital. 1:47:35.479 --> 1:47:36.880 I don't know if I misheard you or if you 1:47:36.960 --> 1:47:39.880 misunderstood me. I don't look at vinyl as a compromise 1:47:39.920 --> 1:47:40.240 at all. 1:47:40.560 --> 1:47:42.679 Well, let me state what I'm stating as supposed putting 1:47:42.720 --> 1:47:46.599 words in your mouth. When one is cutting a vinyl record, 1:47:46.720 --> 1:47:50.960 you have to worry about amplitude, You have to worry 1:47:50.960 --> 1:47:54.240 about roll off. The more attracts you put on one 1:47:54.320 --> 1:47:56.519 side affects on. You have a different sound on the 1:47:56.600 --> 1:47:58.680 beginning of the groove, different sound on the end of 1:47:58.720 --> 1:48:02.120 the groove. Lot of those issues that you have in 1:48:02.240 --> 1:48:07.160 vinyl it's still music, do not apply to digital. Now 1:48:07.360 --> 1:48:09.439 there's a couple of other things I'll put. 1:48:09.280 --> 1:48:09.840 In the mix. 1:48:10.720 --> 1:48:13.559 Yes, all this stuff in the seventies, certainly before that 1:48:13.600 --> 1:48:17.040 was all cut on tape, So it's analog to begin with, 1:48:17.880 --> 1:48:24.680 whereas almost everything today is cut digital. So what kind 1:48:24.720 --> 1:48:28.360 of sense does it make to go from digital to vinyl, 1:48:29.479 --> 1:48:32.840 especially now where you can there you know, there are 1:48:33.040 --> 1:48:37.800 streaming services that are streaming way above CD quality. So 1:48:38.000 --> 1:48:41.120 what's your take there on the vinyl explosion? 1:48:43.960 --> 1:48:52.880 Okay, so, yes, you point out accurately that vinyl has drawbacks. Well, again, 1:48:53.040 --> 1:48:57.680 analog tape has, in my opinion, more analog tape has 1:48:57.680 --> 1:49:01.440 a sound. It was never a mirror. And the directed 1:49:01.479 --> 1:49:05.880 disc which goes from the console right to the disc 1:49:06.320 --> 1:49:10.000 and you listen to the clarity and reality of that 1:49:10.080 --> 1:49:14.120 compared to two generations of analog tape and then putting 1:49:14.160 --> 1:49:18.840 it on there, it shows that even with its problems, 1:49:20.080 --> 1:49:22.439 disc the disc is more of a mirror than analog 1:49:22.479 --> 1:49:25.920 tape ever was, let alone two generations of it and 1:49:25.960 --> 1:49:31.120 two passes through the console that said today, you know, 1:49:31.880 --> 1:49:35.200 digital is a thing. And it started obviously with artists 1:49:35.800 --> 1:49:38.639 wanting something to sell, primarily I think, you know, I mean, 1:49:38.760 --> 1:49:42.240 I remember when it was gaining traction. I haven't heard recently, 1:49:42.280 --> 1:49:45.439 but you know, it was like in the beginning they 1:49:45.479 --> 1:49:48.120 were saying that, you know, seventy five percent. I'm sure 1:49:48.120 --> 1:49:51.720 it's gone down some seventy five percent of the albums 1:49:51.760 --> 1:49:55.400 sold at least, especially at gigs. It's just for the 1:49:56.520 --> 1:49:58.519 memory thing. And you know they're never put on a 1:49:58.560 --> 1:50:02.880 turntable and listen to I know that turntables are on 1:50:02.920 --> 1:50:07.160 the rise. I know that more people are doing it now. 1:50:07.200 --> 1:50:12.400 To your question about does it make sense, well, no, 1:50:13.479 --> 1:50:17.040 the way you're asking it, absolutely not. When you can 1:50:17.080 --> 1:50:20.479 hear okay, when you can hear something full range. As 1:50:20.520 --> 1:50:23.519 I said in the beginning of the interview, sixteen forty 1:50:23.520 --> 1:50:26.760 four to one, which is CD equality never sounded good 1:50:26.800 --> 1:50:30.360 to me in nineteen eighty two and still doesn't in 1:50:30.400 --> 1:50:34.840 twenty twenty five, and it never is going to. So 1:50:35.800 --> 1:50:38.960 the deal is, though today now we can record much 1:50:39.000 --> 1:50:42.479 higher as in ninety six or even one ninety two, 1:50:43.160 --> 1:50:45.800 And when you get up and with those and thirty 1:50:45.800 --> 1:50:51.760 two bits floating as opposed to sixteen bits, when you 1:50:51.800 --> 1:50:55.879 get up there, you're talking about a really with great converter, 1:50:56.400 --> 1:51:03.200 outstanding mirror of what's coming through this class. So you know, 1:51:03.680 --> 1:51:08.040 there's there's very little reason to put it on disc. 1:51:08.320 --> 1:51:10.519 To me, if you can hear it in those now 1:51:10.720 --> 1:51:17.040 hear it in those operatues. But unfortunately most people, you know, 1:51:17.720 --> 1:51:19.880 I can't tell you most people still don't even record 1:51:19.920 --> 1:51:22.479 it ninety six. They still record it forty eight, which 1:51:22.520 --> 1:51:25.479 is only a NAT's better than forty four to one. 1:51:26.120 --> 1:51:29.360 I don't understand it. Discs are cheap, you know. It 1:51:29.439 --> 1:51:32.320 was one thing in nineteen eighty five, when you know 1:51:32.360 --> 1:51:36.240 it costs a fortune to put the the bits on 1:51:36.320 --> 1:51:39.599 a computer, you know, on a hard drive. But today 1:51:39.840 --> 1:51:43.040 you buy a solid state drive with a lifetime supply 1:51:43.200 --> 1:51:47.880 for a few hundred dollars, and what the heck? You know, 1:51:47.920 --> 1:51:53.000 it's just like, why not record higher? I don't get it, 1:51:53.600 --> 1:51:57.479 but so and yes, if you can get it that 1:51:57.560 --> 1:52:00.880 way and then stream it, yeah, you get on title 1:52:01.280 --> 1:52:06.200 you know or co buzz. It sounds quite good. Nothing 1:52:06.240 --> 1:52:10.960 like a CD plus plus one last thing plus plus. 1:52:11.040 --> 1:52:14.400 The other thing is with the CD. The other thing 1:52:14.439 --> 1:52:18.400 that hurt the CD was the fact that we got 1:52:18.400 --> 1:52:22.080 into level wars. Now we've always had level wars. We 1:52:22.160 --> 1:52:25.680 had Level Wars in the fifties with forty fives, in 1:52:25.720 --> 1:52:28.960 the sixties with forty fives. My take on it was 1:52:29.720 --> 1:52:34.439 everyone wanted a hot record. Why so, you know, when 1:52:34.479 --> 1:52:37.000 it played on the radio. You know, it would try 1:52:37.040 --> 1:52:39.840 to get through all the compression and jump a little bit. 1:52:40.360 --> 1:52:42.479 And I used to always say, you know, the guys, 1:52:42.680 --> 1:52:46.040 the promotion guys would go into a local, smaller radio 1:52:46.040 --> 1:52:48.400 station where they're trying to get you know, they were 1:52:48.400 --> 1:52:51.240 going around the country doing this in smaller markets, not 1:52:51.320 --> 1:52:55.200 the big ones, and like Nashville for instance, And you 1:52:55.200 --> 1:52:57.519 know the DJ. They going to see the DJ. He's 1:52:57.520 --> 1:52:59.640 on the air and he's got two turntables and he 1:52:59.680 --> 1:53:01.400 puts on the next single and here's the new one 1:53:01.439 --> 1:53:03.720 from so and so and plays it out to go. 1:53:04.080 --> 1:53:06.080 Then he turns the speakers in the control room off 1:53:06.080 --> 1:53:07.800 and says, what do you got, Oh, this is a 1:53:07.840 --> 1:53:09.960 new single from this listen to it. And he puts 1:53:09.960 --> 1:53:12.960 it on and he's just heard the other single and 1:53:13.000 --> 1:53:15.040 it's not loud. This isn't as loud, it doesn't jump 1:53:15.080 --> 1:53:17.280 out of the speakers. Promotion guy goes back to the 1:53:17.280 --> 1:53:19.240 record company and says, you've got to get it hotter. 1:53:19.320 --> 1:53:21.800 It's got to be hotter. It's not hot enough. So 1:53:21.960 --> 1:53:24.040 we've always had level wars, but when we got into 1:53:24.080 --> 1:53:29.720 the you can only go so far without insane distortion. Well, unfortunately, 1:53:30.760 --> 1:53:34.720 in digital land, you can you can go crazy without 1:53:35.040 --> 1:53:37.559 the same kind of distortion, a different kind of distortion. 1:53:38.080 --> 1:53:42.439 So CDs, because you know, we finally got a medium 1:53:42.640 --> 1:53:46.959 that had one hundred and ten dB level of dynamic 1:53:47.080 --> 1:53:50.000 level and we use the top all but the top 1:53:50.040 --> 1:53:54.040 five to eight percent. It absolutely is stupid, but that's 1:53:54.080 --> 1:53:56.200 how it was, So that's what you were comparing to. 1:53:56.360 --> 1:53:59.479 So yeah, if you get on those streamings, those two 1:53:59.520 --> 1:54:03.200 streamings services, I'm not familiar with Apple what their's was light, 1:54:03.360 --> 1:54:07.040 but where they're actually doing ninety six k's In addition 1:54:07.200 --> 1:54:11.880 to them being higher quality because of being that high, 1:54:12.000 --> 1:54:14.559 they're also not compressed to living death the way the 1:54:14.560 --> 1:54:15.200 CDs were. 1:54:16.600 --> 1:54:21.800 Okay, in terms of yourself monitoring, one thing we know 1:54:22.000 --> 1:54:26.880 is every speaker sounds different. How important were the speakers 1:54:26.920 --> 1:54:30.040 to you and what do you listen to on playback? 1:54:34.160 --> 1:54:38.440 Well speakers are I'd like to say they're very important. 1:54:39.600 --> 1:54:43.080 You know, when I started through the seventies, before I 1:54:43.120 --> 1:54:46.680 built my studio, I worked in lots of different studios 1:54:46.800 --> 1:54:52.440 and Doug Sachs, my mastering engineer, said you must mix 1:54:52.520 --> 1:54:54.240 by the meters because I don't know how you can 1:54:54.320 --> 1:54:57.720 relate to these different studios, especially back then when some 1:54:57.760 --> 1:55:04.200 of them just had horrific monitoring, terrible monitoring. But speakers 1:55:04.200 --> 1:55:07.640 are definitely very important, and it's how you relate to 1:55:07.720 --> 1:55:11.360 a speaker. It's one of the most important things. Because 1:55:11.840 --> 1:55:14.640 I've heard good engineers that work with speakers that I 1:55:14.680 --> 1:55:18.440 could never mix on or wouldn't want to. Maybe I 1:55:18.480 --> 1:55:21.720 could would have to. I don't know, and I don't understand, 1:55:21.800 --> 1:55:24.840 and they come out with good mixes everywhere. And that's 1:55:24.920 --> 1:55:27.280 the key, is that you want you want to mix. 1:55:27.720 --> 1:55:31.480 In my early days with Doug, I literally would go 1:55:31.520 --> 1:55:34.600 to hi fi stores where you could go in and 1:55:34.720 --> 1:55:37.400 play something and they had push buttons you may remember that, 1:55:37.400 --> 1:55:40.040 where you could go in and go from this speaker 1:55:40.080 --> 1:55:42.800 to that speaker to this speaker. And it was always 1:55:42.800 --> 1:55:44.560 great to see if all of them were in phase, 1:55:44.960 --> 1:55:47.040 because sometimes one of them here they are trying to 1:55:47.040 --> 1:55:49.800 sell their equipment and the speakers are out of phase. 1:55:49.800 --> 1:55:53.920 It's just a wonderful thing. But I digress anyway, and 1:55:54.200 --> 1:55:58.280 that was very helpful in the beginning to see you 1:55:58.320 --> 1:56:01.200 can't go crazy with that because it'll literally drive you crazy. 1:56:01.480 --> 1:56:04.720 The fact that some speakers could be so incredibly different, 1:56:05.000 --> 1:56:07.280 let alone what room they're in and all of that. 1:56:08.280 --> 1:56:13.920 For me personally, I used Richie Podler monitored on one 1:56:15.720 --> 1:56:19.200 six inch speaker, even in this when we went to stereo, 1:56:20.200 --> 1:56:24.520 and I remember him asking him about that, and he said, 1:56:24.600 --> 1:56:26.800 I mix on one speaker because I want to know 1:56:27.200 --> 1:56:29.600 what it's going to sound like on the radio. And 1:56:29.680 --> 1:56:31.440 he said, if it didn't sound good on the radio, 1:56:31.760 --> 1:56:33.520 no one's going to buy it, so it doesn't matter 1:56:33.520 --> 1:56:37.000 how it sounds anywhere else. And I can't say that 1:56:37.040 --> 1:56:39.760 he was wrong back then. So I started off on 1:56:39.840 --> 1:56:43.480 small speakers before small speakers were a thing. And then 1:56:43.520 --> 1:56:45.640 when most people went to small speakers, there were these 1:56:45.640 --> 1:56:49.480 little teeny cubes. What is that three inch or something 1:56:51.120 --> 1:56:55.720 to it? To that, and you know, I never could 1:56:55.840 --> 1:56:58.760 begin to relate to those because I couldn't hear enough, 1:56:58.840 --> 1:57:01.560 you know, And it's what's real. I don't know. In fact, 1:57:01.560 --> 1:57:04.080 I remember the greatest thing happened when we when we 1:57:04.160 --> 1:57:07.440 found an AM transmitter where you could put it in 1:57:07.480 --> 1:57:10.200 the studio, park your cars parked in the parking lot. 1:57:10.320 --> 1:57:12.680 The transmitter wouldn't go very far, but it would go 1:57:12.720 --> 1:57:14.560 to the parking lot and you could go out on 1:57:14.640 --> 1:57:18.560 an unused frequency and hear what it sounded like in 1:57:18.600 --> 1:57:22.680 your car, because cars were always important, because that's by 1:57:22.720 --> 1:57:26.280 and large where people heard still is and today it's 1:57:26.320 --> 1:57:29.280 clearly most people don't have a good stereo system. They 1:57:29.320 --> 1:57:32.640 have their cars and that's what goes on. But for 1:57:32.720 --> 1:57:38.000 me personally, I ended up with a Tannoy speaker that 1:57:38.400 --> 1:57:40.960 was given to me by Tannoy. When I listened to it, 1:57:41.560 --> 1:57:43.720 I liked it better than their previous model, which I 1:57:43.720 --> 1:57:46.520 never liked. But I thought the crossover wasn't good, and 1:57:46.560 --> 1:57:50.360 I gave it to Doug Sachs's acoustical I mean not 1:57:50.960 --> 1:57:54.120 electrical engineer to work on a crossover, and he and 1:57:54.200 --> 1:57:56.720 Doug came up with what they called the Mastering Lab 1:57:56.760 --> 1:58:00.720 crossover and had a little made, a little cartage industry 1:58:00.760 --> 1:58:04.320 out of it. And so I've been on those ever 1:58:04.360 --> 1:58:07.480 since twenty something years. It's a ten inch coax. 1:58:08.600 --> 1:58:12.839 In your book, you stress that it's about the music 1:58:13.320 --> 1:58:16.600 as opposed to the sound. Can you give us some 1:58:16.680 --> 1:58:20.000 practical applications where you have to make that decision? 1:58:22.600 --> 1:58:28.440 Yes, I remember having a tough decision early on when 1:58:28.840 --> 1:58:32.960 I was you know, oftentimes, if you have a really 1:58:33.040 --> 1:58:37.000 good band, and I'm talking studio musicians or people that 1:58:37.120 --> 1:58:40.440 haven't lived with the music. Obviously, bands will rehearse when 1:58:40.440 --> 1:58:42.320 they come in and put down how they've been rehearsing it. 1:58:42.360 --> 1:58:44.640 But when you've got guys that are hearing the music 1:58:44.720 --> 1:58:52.000 basically for the first time and whatnot, quite often, quite 1:58:52.000 --> 1:58:55.320 often you may get an incredible take on the very 1:58:55.320 --> 1:58:58.960 first take. Not a lot, I shouldn't say quite often, 1:58:59.680 --> 1:59:04.520 but it can't happen. And I remember a tracking date 1:59:04.840 --> 1:59:10.400 where the first take felt great and I didn't have 1:59:10.480 --> 1:59:14.960 it quite together because, for instance, you know, when you 1:59:14.960 --> 1:59:17.480 talk about getting drum sounds, you can get it, you 1:59:17.480 --> 1:59:21.360 can work. That's another thing about why it's so weird 1:59:21.360 --> 1:59:24.080 to me to spend you know, two days a week 1:59:24.120 --> 1:59:27.400 whatever on a drum sound, because all that matters is 1:59:27.440 --> 1:59:30.200 what the sound when the guy's playing the song. And 1:59:30.320 --> 1:59:33.120 you know, I'm I'm okay on the drums. I mean, 1:59:33.160 --> 1:59:35.520 it's not my main instrument, but I can I'm doing 1:59:35.560 --> 1:59:38.840 I do okay. And I remember helping someone. Someone said, 1:59:38.840 --> 1:59:40.680 do you help me get a drum sound before the 1:59:40.800 --> 1:59:43.280 guy's the drum drummer gets here, And I went out 1:59:43.280 --> 1:59:44.920 and played for him. He got it. And then when 1:59:44.960 --> 1:59:47.040 the real heat and it sounded really good. The drum 1:59:47.120 --> 1:59:48.880 sound was great. When the guy got there, he said, 1:59:48.880 --> 1:59:51.560 you wouldn't believe it. It sounded totally different. I said, oh yeah, 1:59:51.560 --> 1:59:53.880 I'd believe it. And I've had it where I had 1:59:53.880 --> 1:59:57.120 a one professional drummer, Oh my gosh. Jeff Pacara was 1:59:57.160 --> 2:00:00.440 on a session Boss session I was producing, and Steve 2:00:00.520 --> 2:00:04.120 Jordan was in town, the great drummer, Steve Jordan's, and 2:00:04.200 --> 2:00:07.000 he came in and Jeff, who was always looking to 2:00:07.040 --> 2:00:10.440 give anyone and everyone a break, he said, he said, 2:00:10.640 --> 2:00:13.320 let Steve try a take, really, And I thought we 2:00:13.320 --> 2:00:16.600 were so close to getting the take really yeah, okay, 2:00:16.760 --> 2:00:18.920 And I knew why. Main reason was because Steve l 2:00:18.960 --> 2:00:21.800 liked that real pinky sound. So he goes out and 2:00:21.880 --> 2:00:24.680 destroys the tuning of Jeff's drum to get it up 2:00:24.760 --> 2:00:28.160 high pink, and and he tried a couple of takes, 2:00:28.520 --> 2:00:31.800 and the drum sound was not just the snare, but everything, 2:00:32.240 --> 2:00:35.160 the kick, even the symbols. You know, it's all about 2:00:35.200 --> 2:00:38.560 the dynamics of the four appendages of a drummer. And 2:00:38.880 --> 2:00:42.760 you know how they're their ears are, you know, are 2:00:42.840 --> 2:00:46.880 telling the I guess we'll consider the ears as left 2:00:46.880 --> 2:00:49.240 brain how the ears and the left brain are telling 2:00:49.320 --> 2:00:52.440 the appendages and the and the right. No, the appendages 2:00:52.440 --> 2:00:54.720 will be left too, I don't know. Anyway, they're going 2:00:54.800 --> 2:00:57.280 to tell them how to play what that they think 2:00:57.320 --> 2:01:00.400 feels good, and another drummer comes in and it's totally different. 2:01:01.000 --> 2:01:01.760 What can you do. 2:01:02.680 --> 2:01:05.000 Well, Bill? This has been great. I have a million 2:01:05.040 --> 2:01:09.840 more questions, a lot of them technical questions about boards, eques, whatever, 2:01:09.920 --> 2:01:12.280 but we're going to leave it here for now. I 2:01:12.360 --> 2:01:14.600 want to thank you so much for taking this time 2:01:14.600 --> 2:01:19.920 with my audience. Oh it's my my pleasure. Until next time. 2:01:20.400 --> 2:01:21.800 This is Bob left Sex