1
00:00:08,560 --> 00:00:12,440
Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Sets podcast.

2
00:00:13,039 --> 00:00:18,239
Speaker 1: My guest today is a producer engineer, Billie Bill. What's

3
00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:19,680
Speaker 1: keeping you busy these days?

4
00:00:20,880 --> 00:00:23,799
Speaker 2: Well, basically the same old thing, maybe not quite in

5
00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:26,840
Speaker 2: the same way and certainly not quite as much, but

6
00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:32,280
Speaker 2: you know, especially mixing, which is my favorite aspect of engineering.

7
00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:35,400
Speaker 1: So what kind of stuff you're mixing these days?

8
00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:40,440
Speaker 2: Well, I've just done the singles for Steve Percaro from Toto,

9
00:00:40,600 --> 00:00:43,239
Speaker 2: which he's got with a record company. They seem to

10
00:00:43,240 --> 00:00:47,280
Speaker 2: be promoting it pretty well, whatever that means on social

11
00:00:47,400 --> 00:00:51,440
Speaker 2: media at least. It's definitely not the same old game.

12
00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:55,360
Speaker 2: But and there's a new band, I'll call it a band.

13
00:00:55,440 --> 00:00:58,360
Speaker 2: It's with a guy out of Chicago named Joe Vanna

14
00:00:59,040 --> 00:01:03,480
Speaker 2: and he's got quite a few Well Michael o'martian, you know,

15
00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:07,320
Speaker 2: the great producer, he and I started together in nineteen

16
00:01:07,360 --> 00:01:11,480
Speaker 2: sixty seven or eight. He's in the band. And I

17
00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:14,560
Speaker 2: love that they're calling it a band, considering no two

18
00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:16,759
Speaker 2: people ever played in the same room at the same time.

19
00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:21,800
Speaker 2: But I'm getting ready to start that mixing that and

20
00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:25,280
Speaker 2: they've sent me the rough mixes and it's really good.

21
00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:28,240
Speaker 1: So what's the appeal of mixing for you.

22
00:01:30,480 --> 00:01:35,000
Speaker 2: Just you know, it's what started it off. I suppose

23
00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:41,120
Speaker 2: once I decided to engineer the creative aspect of putting

24
00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:43,440
Speaker 2: the elements together and making it come out of a

25
00:01:43,480 --> 00:01:47,200
Speaker 2: couple of speakers so that it moves me, which hopefully

26
00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:49,040
Speaker 2: will move the listeners.

27
00:01:50,320 --> 00:01:53,000
Speaker 1: Now, are you still working out of your own studio?

28
00:01:53,080 --> 00:01:54,160
Speaker 1: You're working out of your home.

29
00:01:56,400 --> 00:01:59,320
Speaker 2: Well, if you can't beat them, you join them. And

30
00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:01,560
Speaker 2: you know, when I had a big studio in Los

31
00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:05,040
Speaker 2: Angeles for thirty five years, and when people started building

32
00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:08,840
Speaker 2: studios in La not a lot of them. This is

33
00:02:08,840 --> 00:02:10,960
Speaker 2: back when it cost you know, at least one hundred

34
00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:13,280
Speaker 2: and fifty two hundred thousand to build a minimal studio.

35
00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:18,240
Speaker 2: You know, before the digital revolution, there was all the

36
00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:22,160
Speaker 2: studios got together to get those outlawed because they were

37
00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:30,240
Speaker 2: messing with whatever they are so so and I remember

38
00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:33,360
Speaker 2: at the time thinking, you know, I know it's in

39
00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:35,280
Speaker 2: the house, but I kind of like getting up in

40
00:02:35,320 --> 00:02:38,200
Speaker 2: the morning, going to work at the studio and then

41
00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:40,919
Speaker 2: coming home at night and going to bed. Now, I

42
00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:43,120
Speaker 2: kind of like getting up at six thirty and mixing

43
00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:43,880
Speaker 2: in my underwear.

44
00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:47,639
Speaker 1: So what'd you do with your studio that you owned.

45
00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:55,520
Speaker 2: I basically I sold it basically to the studio next door.

46
00:02:56,320 --> 00:02:57,880
Speaker 1: And all the equipment in there.

47
00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:02,440
Speaker 2: What happened to that. I took it with me and

48
00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:06,760
Speaker 2: I've been parsing it off, so to speak. I've been

49
00:03:06,760 --> 00:03:10,280
Speaker 2: selling it off as I don't need it anymore. But

50
00:03:10,320 --> 00:03:13,720
Speaker 2: there was a lot of very ESO custom equipment. It

51
00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:16,480
Speaker 2: was a very unique studio in that regard, including the

52
00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:21,760
Speaker 2: console that we built from scratch and those we are

53
00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:26,640
Speaker 2: now have a gentleman here that has a company. He

54
00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:30,120
Speaker 2: builds pre amps and microphones and so on, and he's

55
00:03:30,160 --> 00:03:32,880
Speaker 2: actually taking my pre amps two at a time and

56
00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:37,040
Speaker 2: putting him in a package and we're repurposing those that

57
00:03:37,080 --> 00:03:39,720
Speaker 2: way and all of the I had a huge collection

58
00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:44,360
Speaker 2: of vintage microphones and I've been selling those off as well.

59
00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:47,600
Speaker 1: Okay, so what do you actually have in your house

60
00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:49,960
Speaker 1: and how much of that is from your old studio.

61
00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:55,840
Speaker 2: What I have in the house. So when digital came out,

62
00:03:55,880 --> 00:03:59,440
Speaker 2: I absolutely hated it. I didn't think sixteen forty four

63
00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:01,520
Speaker 2: to one on the technical side, I didn't think that

64
00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:04,560
Speaker 2: sounded very good, and I still don't. But I've done

65
00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:07,040
Speaker 2: everything I can over the year. Of course, we've gotten better.

66
00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:11,080
Speaker 2: We've learned a lot about filtering and sampling rates and

67
00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:14,160
Speaker 2: all different things, so that we're in much better shape

68
00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:17,680
Speaker 2: with digital than we were in the early eighties. But

69
00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:22,799
Speaker 2: I did have in my studio a very technical homemade

70
00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:26,080
Speaker 2: so to speak, from a guy named Josh Flori at

71
00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:30,680
Speaker 2: JCF Audio. So what I have now is I come

72
00:04:30,680 --> 00:04:37,080
Speaker 2: out of pro tools twenty four wide, and those go

73
00:04:37,240 --> 00:04:43,080
Speaker 2: into sixteen custom made by Josh, sixteen transistor DTA a's

74
00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:48,919
Speaker 2: and eight tube DTA a's and then that gets summed

75
00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:53,359
Speaker 2: in a very simple analog summer with no amplifiers and

76
00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:56,000
Speaker 2: goes into a patch pay where I can put any

77
00:04:56,000 --> 00:05:01,360
Speaker 2: one of one, two, three, four, five, seven, seven analogue compressors.

78
00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:04,800
Speaker 2: So I keep as much at the point between the tube,

79
00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:09,000
Speaker 2: especially the tube DTA a and and the tube compressors.

80
00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:11,520
Speaker 2: I keep as much of the old school as I can.

81
00:05:12,440 --> 00:05:17,840
Speaker 1: Okay, why are some transistors and why are some tubes

82
00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:18,680
Speaker 1: in the d DA A.

83
00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:26,000
Speaker 2: I learned early on in my career that there's a

84
00:05:26,080 --> 00:05:30,560
Speaker 2: special there's a special bond between tubes and transducers, either

85
00:05:30,640 --> 00:05:37,800
Speaker 2: microphones or speakers and in and uh so when it

86
00:05:37,839 --> 00:05:43,919
Speaker 2: came to the digital life, we live in now, I

87
00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:47,400
Speaker 2: thought that having a tube DTA A would give me

88
00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:51,719
Speaker 2: something and which it really does. It's a you know,

89
00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:54,680
Speaker 2: it's a it's a much warmer, richer even though the

90
00:05:54,680 --> 00:05:57,839
Speaker 2: frequency response is essentially the same as the transistor ones,

91
00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:03,160
Speaker 2: it's a warmer, richer sound. So that works great on

92
00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:07,480
Speaker 2: anything acoustic, anything you know, from a piano to voices

93
00:06:07,960 --> 00:06:11,000
Speaker 2: and even electric bass, which tubes do a nice thing

94
00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:15,000
Speaker 2: on base. So that's the basic reason.

95
00:06:16,240 --> 00:06:18,800
Speaker 1: So if you have tubes and transistors, when would you

96
00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:19,880
Speaker 1: use transistors.

97
00:06:21,320 --> 00:06:25,440
Speaker 2: Well, the transistors in general, transistors are faster, meaning they

98
00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:28,720
Speaker 2: you know, the sound is quicker. They don't. Tubes react

99
00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:32,480
Speaker 2: a little slower. Tubes are a little rich, definitely a

100
00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:37,520
Speaker 2: little richer, but the transistors are definitely faster. And so

101
00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:42,239
Speaker 2: in fact, in fact, I'll remember I did a short

102
00:06:42,279 --> 00:06:46,720
Speaker 2: stint at CBS as an engineer, and I noticed that

103
00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:50,799
Speaker 2: the old school engineers that were all fifteen years younger

104
00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:53,560
Speaker 2: than I am. Now, all the old school engineers were

105
00:06:53,640 --> 00:06:57,440
Speaker 2: using that a tube mic called the U sixty seven,

106
00:06:57,880 --> 00:07:00,799
Speaker 2: and young three young guys were using the eighty seven.

107
00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:03,200
Speaker 2: The sixty seven was two and the eighty seven was

108
00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:06,440
Speaker 2: the new transistor one. And I asked the older engineers,

109
00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:08,960
Speaker 2: why do you guys use that. He said, well, Neiman

110
00:07:09,080 --> 00:07:11,240
Speaker 2: came over from Germany with the eighty seven. They were

111
00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:14,880
Speaker 2: so excited for us to try it, and they left

112
00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:17,120
Speaker 2: it with us, and then they asked for a report

113
00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:20,960
Speaker 2: a month later, and we told them. They called us

114
00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:23,480
Speaker 2: and we told them, you know, we just liked the

115
00:07:23,520 --> 00:07:25,880
Speaker 2: sound of the sixty seven better, and they said, what

116
00:07:25,880 --> 00:07:28,160
Speaker 2: do you mean. He said, well, it's just kind of

117
00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:31,800
Speaker 2: the eighty seven was kind of harsh. And they said, no, no,

118
00:07:31,840 --> 00:07:35,320
Speaker 2: you don't understand. Transistors are very very fast. You're hearing

119
00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:38,480
Speaker 2: for the first time what's really on the floor. And

120
00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:43,000
Speaker 2: whereas they were correct that the transistors were faster, I

121
00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:45,640
Speaker 2: don't know that anything. Do you really hear what's on

122
00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:48,200
Speaker 2: the floor. It's really a bat matter of whatever sounds,

123
00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:50,920
Speaker 2: you know, whatever's euphonic to the guy doing the work.

124
00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:54,000
Speaker 2: And so they said, okay, but we're going to continue

125
00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:55,520
Speaker 2: to use the old one because we just think it

126
00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:56,160
Speaker 2: sounds better.

127
00:07:57,760 --> 00:08:01,920
Speaker 1: Okay, you wrote a book, Chairman of the Board, Recording

128
00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:05,080
Speaker 1: the Soundtrack of a Generation. You go in that book

129
00:08:05,320 --> 00:08:09,720
Speaker 1: about using different mics for different situations, some ribbon something.

130
00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:11,240
Speaker 1: Can you tell us a little bit more about that.

131
00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:14,080
Speaker 2: Wow, I didn't know you were going to be so

132
00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:21,680
Speaker 2: tech today. Fun. Well, yeah, there's you know, within the

133
00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:25,600
Speaker 2: basic let's say put it down to three basic types

134
00:08:25,640 --> 00:08:32,280
Speaker 2: of microphones condenser, dynamic, and ribbon and not. You know,

135
00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:34,440
Speaker 2: it's a matter I think as you learn, as an

136
00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:38,160
Speaker 2: engineer learns what the palette can do, the different colors

137
00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:43,360
Speaker 2: that different microphones can do, you try things out, maybe

138
00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:45,640
Speaker 2: what you've seen someone or maybe you try it yourself.

139
00:08:45,679 --> 00:08:48,120
Speaker 2: I did a lot of experimenting my early years myself.

140
00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:52,520
Speaker 2: And nothing's worse than trying something and you can't and

141
00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:53,960
Speaker 2: you're in the middle of a session now and you

142
00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:57,079
Speaker 2: can't change it. But oh that's not as good as

143
00:08:57,080 --> 00:08:59,640
Speaker 2: what I used last week at all. But you don't

144
00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:03,240
Speaker 2: make that mistake again anyway. Within each of the those types,

145
00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:05,920
Speaker 2: you know, there's obviously a lot of different models of

146
00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:09,200
Speaker 2: each of those types, and you just you know, have

147
00:09:09,280 --> 00:09:12,760
Speaker 2: to have to figure what works. There's you know, dynamics

148
00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:15,320
Speaker 2: will take level you can put them in, you know,

149
00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:20,400
Speaker 2: in high level situations and they won't crumble. Condensers, some

150
00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:23,240
Speaker 2: of them, a lot of them, almost most of them

151
00:09:23,880 --> 00:09:26,320
Speaker 2: can't take the same kind of level, but they have

152
00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:30,200
Speaker 2: a more extended frequency response, you hear a wider sound

153
00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:34,880
Speaker 2: from a frequency standpoint. Ribbons are great usually most of

154
00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:37,720
Speaker 2: them are good with level also, and they have a

155
00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:41,120
Speaker 2: unique kind of sound that's tough to describe between those

156
00:09:41,160 --> 00:09:44,839
Speaker 2: other two. You just have to experience, I mean, hear

157
00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:45,480
Speaker 2: it to know it.

158
00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:49,480
Speaker 1: So, before you started selling microphones, how many did you own?

159
00:09:51,559 --> 00:09:55,320
Speaker 2: Oh? I don't even know. I couldn't tell you. I mean,

160
00:09:55,840 --> 00:09:59,360
Speaker 2: if there's any tech people listening, I had nine two,

161
00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:05,360
Speaker 2: fifty one, five and forty nine six and fifties eight, eight,

162
00:10:05,480 --> 00:10:13,880
Speaker 2: fifty four's, ten fifty six's, seven fifty threes in that

163
00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:19,880
Speaker 2: Noman old Noyman range, the fifty range. I am a

164
00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:23,920
Speaker 2: huge fan of them, so it was a pretty big collection.

165
00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:28,960
Speaker 1: Now, another thing you mentioned in your book is you know,

166
00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:31,200
Speaker 1: I read Mike Campbell's book and he's talking about working

167
00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:35,600
Speaker 1: with Jimmy Ivan and Shelley Yakis taking a week to

168
00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:39,960
Speaker 1: get drum sounds. You said that a you worked faster,

169
00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:44,960
Speaker 1: you got drum sounds faster. What was your style different

170
00:10:45,040 --> 00:10:47,240
Speaker 1: in how did you make different from the people who

171
00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:49,400
Speaker 1: were spending so much time or was it just a

172
00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:53,520
Speaker 1: matter of they were on their own journey.

173
00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:58,920
Speaker 2: Well, I came up. The first studio I got a

174
00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:03,079
Speaker 2: job in was a very not a very good studio.

175
00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:06,040
Speaker 2: It had egg cartons on the wall for sound absorption.

176
00:11:06,240 --> 00:11:09,600
Speaker 2: It had one wall between the studio and the control room,

177
00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:14,320
Speaker 2: one piece of glass, one door, and it was just stereo.

178
00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:18,120
Speaker 2: It was only you only had two condenser i'll call

179
00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:22,440
Speaker 2: them professional microphones. And the great news about that was

180
00:11:22,800 --> 00:11:28,160
Speaker 2: you I got to learn mixing immediately. It wasn't a

181
00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:30,959
Speaker 2: matter of starting out like most guys you know in

182
00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:34,679
Speaker 2: the last sixty years have with fifty five years anyway,

183
00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:38,320
Speaker 2: I have with the multi channel you know, tape recorder,

184
00:11:38,679 --> 00:11:41,280
Speaker 2: and then taking as much time as you want to mix.

185
00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:45,000
Speaker 2: So when everything was two track, they're playing, you're mixing,

186
00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:52,800
Speaker 2: and the mix is done. And so what was the question,

187
00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:57,600
Speaker 2: I'm off it. The question is Viking drums? Oh so

188
00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:04,439
Speaker 2: one when I started on my own with the experimentation,

189
00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:08,680
Speaker 2: I had met Glenn Johns who has a very unique

190
00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:14,600
Speaker 2: micing for drums with basically three mics, one on the kick,

191
00:12:14,679 --> 00:12:17,640
Speaker 2: one overhead directly overhead, and one off to the side

192
00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:20,840
Speaker 2: equal distant from the overhead to the snare, so that

193
00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:22,760
Speaker 2: when you put them left and right the snare is

194
00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:26,080
Speaker 2: in the center, and I loved the size that he

195
00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:28,680
Speaker 2: would get, but I didn't like the sound of the

196
00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:33,600
Speaker 2: snare without a snare mic. So I started somewhere in there,

197
00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:37,240
Speaker 2: and I was people that trained me were all the

198
00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:41,280
Speaker 2: old school people that you know it starts, you know,

199
00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:44,520
Speaker 2: because when everything was stereo, there wasn't all the equipment

200
00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:47,679
Speaker 2: and all the equalizers. You know, it was basically a

201
00:12:48,120 --> 00:12:51,920
Speaker 2: professional console had just tone controls, a top end boost

202
00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:55,000
Speaker 2: or cut, and a blow end ten thousand cycle, one

203
00:12:55,080 --> 00:12:58,920
Speaker 2: hundred cycle. So the idea was you picked the microphone

204
00:12:58,960 --> 00:13:02,200
Speaker 2: for the sound. You learned about mike placement because that

205
00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:06,480
Speaker 2: can change the sound dramatically. You put, if you don't

206
00:13:06,520 --> 00:13:08,560
Speaker 2: like the sound, you change the position of the mic,

207
00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:13,400
Speaker 2: or you change the mic or both. And that, you know,

208
00:13:13,559 --> 00:13:16,040
Speaker 2: that's what you had to you had to rely on

209
00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:20,079
Speaker 2: to get the sound that you wanted. So then came

210
00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:24,400
Speaker 2: Elton John and I loved him as an artist, and

211
00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:26,840
Speaker 2: there was no question when I heard the early drum

212
00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:30,360
Speaker 2: sounds that were done in a studio called Trident by

213
00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:35,040
Speaker 2: some very good engineers that they were using a lot

214
00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:37,360
Speaker 2: of EQ a lot of microphones. There was a mic

215
00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:40,760
Speaker 2: on every drum and a lot of equalization. You could

216
00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:43,720
Speaker 2: hear it. My joke at the time was the snare

217
00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:46,680
Speaker 2: sound on some of those records was it wasn't the

218
00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:48,560
Speaker 2: sound of a stick hitting a snare, it was the

219
00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:51,559
Speaker 2: sound of a stick hitting an equalizer. Because that's what

220
00:13:51,640 --> 00:13:55,319
Speaker 2: I heard. That's what I heard first, was that equalization.

221
00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:58,680
Speaker 2: But there was something about all that I really liked,

222
00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:02,920
Speaker 2: and so to incorporate that into what I was doing

223
00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:06,920
Speaker 2: and came up with my own version of it. As

224
00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:11,680
Speaker 2: to the speed that you're talking about some people, yeah,

225
00:14:12,040 --> 00:14:14,960
Speaker 2: because I came up in an era where you know,

226
00:14:15,040 --> 00:14:19,040
Speaker 2: everything was live or even went to four track mostly live.

227
00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:24,880
Speaker 2: You know, you had to move fast. Now obviously things

228
00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:27,240
Speaker 2: changed and you had a lot more multi track, and

229
00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:29,800
Speaker 2: you had bigger budget, big budgets than you could take

230
00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:35,200
Speaker 2: more time. But I can't do it. I get bored

231
00:14:35,640 --> 00:14:38,920
Speaker 2: very easily. I like my creativity works when I'm moving fast.

232
00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:42,320
Speaker 2: I move fast and everything, and so I wanted to

233
00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:45,200
Speaker 2: to I couldn't. Let's put it this way, I couldn't

234
00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:48,040
Speaker 2: do what some of these people do, spending you know,

235
00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:50,800
Speaker 2: all kinds of time on it. I mean I trained

236
00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:55,080
Speaker 2: a guy initially named Jack Puig who's gone on to

237
00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:58,680
Speaker 2: have a big career of his own, and he got

238
00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:02,800
Speaker 2: some of the best drums in my studio that anyone did.

239
00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:06,680
Speaker 2: But it was we're talking a day making a high hat,

240
00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:09,400
Speaker 2: getting a high hat sound. I couldn't do that to myself,

241
00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:12,160
Speaker 2: let alone to the drummer, and it was it was

242
00:15:12,160 --> 00:15:15,120
Speaker 2: a band, a real band, and so you know, they

243
00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:18,280
Speaker 2: didn't mind so much. But you know, I grew up

244
00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:22,560
Speaker 2: working with studio musicians, and you know they got You've

245
00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:25,400
Speaker 2: got minutes to get the drum sound and let's get going.

246
00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:38,880
Speaker 1: Okay, it's your career and all these things about Mike Polaceman,

247
00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:42,280
Speaker 1: has it been trial and error? Or to what degree

248
00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:46,960
Speaker 1: have you had people who've instructed you mentor types?

249
00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:55,000
Speaker 2: Basically, well, the initial I'll give you a brief history

250
00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:59,800
Speaker 2: of me. So I my parents moved to southern California

251
00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:02,400
Speaker 2: senior year of high school, and I was a very

252
00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:05,280
Speaker 2: shy person, so I didn't make many friends, but I

253
00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:07,520
Speaker 2: did make it with a couple of guys that were

254
00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:11,200
Speaker 2: starting a band, and I played different instruments, but I said,

255
00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:14,160
Speaker 2: how about an organ? The English Movement was out and

256
00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:17,360
Speaker 2: several bands had used an organ, and so we started

257
00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:23,040
Speaker 2: our band, and funny enough, we thought we wrote some

258
00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:26,960
Speaker 2: pretty good songs and we made some demos and one

259
00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:30,400
Speaker 2: of the kid's mothers knew someone who knew someone that

260
00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:33,320
Speaker 2: was in the business. That guy was Gary Usher. He

261
00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:35,960
Speaker 2: was friends with the Wilson family, the Beach Boy family,

262
00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:38,800
Speaker 2: and actually wanted to be in the Beach Boys, but

263
00:16:39,880 --> 00:16:42,720
Speaker 2: didn't make it, but he did write two of the

264
00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:45,240
Speaker 2: Beach Boys big hits in My Room in four oh nine.

265
00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:48,280
Speaker 2: He wrote with Brian and he had a deal now

266
00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:52,840
Speaker 2: with Decca Records, and so we got a meeting with him,

267
00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:54,880
Speaker 2: went in and he heard I mean, we sent him

268
00:16:54,920 --> 00:16:56,320
Speaker 2: the tape and he liked it. So he said, come

269
00:16:56,320 --> 00:16:58,000
Speaker 2: in for a meeting and he said he really liked it,

270
00:16:58,040 --> 00:16:59,600
Speaker 2: and he thought one of the songs was a hit,

271
00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:05,280
Speaker 2: and he signed us. Uh. We recorded the initials recordings

272
00:17:05,320 --> 00:17:09,679
Speaker 2: at Capitol Studio B, and he brought in a guitarist

273
00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:13,360
Speaker 2: to augment the band. Our guitar player wasn't that good, uh,

274
00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:17,359
Speaker 2: and that his name was Richie Podler, and he was

275
00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:21,200
Speaker 2: an outstanding musician. He just he just passed away recently.

276
00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:26,040
Speaker 2: He was an outstanding musician and as it turns out,

277
00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:32,639
Speaker 2: a phenomenal producer. And engineer as well, and I we

278
00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:35,040
Speaker 2: got dropped. You know, in those days, it was called

279
00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:38,200
Speaker 2: a singles deal. They signed us for four singles we've made.

280
00:17:38,359 --> 00:17:41,000
Speaker 2: We did four songs and they put him out and

281
00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:43,200
Speaker 2: if anything hit, you ran in and cut six more

282
00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:46,719
Speaker 2: and then you had an album. So there was no

283
00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:51,320
Speaker 2: La Teens album. And I always chuckle at that that

284
00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:54,920
Speaker 2: Decker Records, who passed on the Beatles, signed the l

285
00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:57,679
Speaker 2: A Teams. And it's not so much that, not so

286
00:17:57,800 --> 00:18:00,040
Speaker 2: much that they signed the l A Teams, but what

287
00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:02,840
Speaker 2: kind of longevity were they were they hoping for? You know,

288
00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:06,280
Speaker 2: I was six seventeen years old. What did I know

289
00:18:06,280 --> 00:18:10,960
Speaker 2: about longevity? But anyway, so when we got dropped, I

290
00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:14,040
Speaker 2: went over to Richie Podler's studio and told him the

291
00:18:14,119 --> 00:18:18,240
Speaker 2: sad news, and he said, oh, you guys were really good. Here.

292
00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:20,560
Speaker 2: I've got a good connection. I can get you a

293
00:18:20,560 --> 00:18:23,320
Speaker 2: record deal. On my word, go see this guy Mike Curb.

294
00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:27,160
Speaker 2: He's going to go places. And indeed, Mike Curb has

295
00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:31,439
Speaker 2: gone to incredible places. But he signed us to our

296
00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:38,120
Speaker 2: second recording contract and we went in to work with Richie. Now,

297
00:18:38,119 --> 00:18:41,760
Speaker 2: when we worked with Gary Usher at Capitol and actually

298
00:18:42,119 --> 00:18:46,680
Speaker 2: Western and two of the best studios in LA still

299
00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:52,240
Speaker 2: to this day, if Capitol will reopen. You know, they

300
00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:56,720
Speaker 2: were fancy at the time, albeit three track, but that's

301
00:18:56,840 --> 00:19:02,720
Speaker 2: all there was nineteen sixty five. And now we went

302
00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:06,400
Speaker 2: into Richie's studio, which was much funkier, a little homemade

303
00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:10,280
Speaker 2: console and whatnot, and you know, not the cleanest place.

304
00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:13,919
Speaker 2: But I came in for the first playback. We went

305
00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:16,520
Speaker 2: out and did a made a track, came in for

306
00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:19,760
Speaker 2: the first playback, and I remember like it was yesterday,

307
00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:24,040
Speaker 2: looking up at the speakers while while a two track

308
00:19:24,119 --> 00:19:28,600
Speaker 2: basic track was playing, and I heard, and maybe more importantly,

309
00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:32,000
Speaker 2: felt something in what I was hearing out of the

310
00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:34,360
Speaker 2: band that I had never heard or felt at those

311
00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:37,280
Speaker 2: other great studios, and I knew it had to be

312
00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:40,680
Speaker 2: what Richie was doing. And when the song was over,

313
00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:43,720
Speaker 2: I literally pointed at all the equipment and said, can

314
00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:45,919
Speaker 2: you teach me how to do this? And he said, no,

315
00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:48,280
Speaker 2: I'm teaching this guy, Bill Cooper, go out and do

316
00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:50,800
Speaker 2: another take. We got to get a better take. But

317
00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:53,480
Speaker 2: that was the moment that sealed in my mind what

318
00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:56,800
Speaker 2: I would do, as it turns out, once I got

319
00:19:56,840 --> 00:20:01,040
Speaker 2: away from my father. But you can relate to this.

320
00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:04,080
Speaker 2: My father was a Jewish doctor, so you know what

321
00:20:04,119 --> 00:20:07,119
Speaker 2: that means. And I told him, no, Dad, I'm not

322
00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:09,720
Speaker 2: going to be a doctor. Well, then a lawyer, I

323
00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:13,600
Speaker 2: don't know. In fact, In fact, I did start law

324
00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:17,879
Speaker 2: school at Loyola on the part time program when I

325
00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:21,320
Speaker 2: was working for Richie. But I'm getting ahead of myself.

326
00:20:21,359 --> 00:20:24,720
Speaker 2: But I couldn't. I got the grades and the second

327
00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:28,560
Speaker 2: semester started and they were all season of B. I'd

328
00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:30,679
Speaker 2: been faking it because I didn't have time to do

329
00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:34,720
Speaker 2: the reading, go to class and do sessions. Anyway, after

330
00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:37,840
Speaker 2: that first aha moment where I want, I want to

331
00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:40,640
Speaker 2: know how to do that, because that was like magic

332
00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:43,240
Speaker 2: to make the band sound and feel something so different

333
00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:45,959
Speaker 2: than what I'd heard in those other great studios. So

334
00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:48,320
Speaker 2: I went off to that studio I described earlier with

335
00:20:48,359 --> 00:20:50,800
Speaker 2: the egg cartons on the wall and got my start

336
00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:56,119
Speaker 2: learning there and where my left brain and right brain

337
00:20:56,400 --> 00:21:00,359
Speaker 2: met in the middle. Engineering came very very quickly. I

338
00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:04,320
Speaker 2: was very fortunate to meet someone who was an engineer

339
00:21:04,359 --> 00:21:07,800
Speaker 2: that was very patient and heard what I was recording

340
00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:10,720
Speaker 2: in that studio and thought that I had some real talent.

341
00:21:11,359 --> 00:21:14,320
Speaker 2: And he was working in another studio, and I was

342
00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:18,720
Speaker 2: I was back in college at this point, and I

343
00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:22,160
Speaker 2: went over every night after school and would ask him,

344
00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:25,880
Speaker 2: just nail him with question after question after question until

345
00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:28,840
Speaker 2: he couldn't take it anymore, and he would say, all right, enough,

346
00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:33,040
Speaker 2: go ahead, go home, I'll see you tomorrow. But engineering

347
00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:37,720
Speaker 2: came very quickly, and so had we had upgraded that

348
00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:42,920
Speaker 2: Mickey Mouse studio a bit. Still wasn't what I would

349
00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:47,320
Speaker 2: call really professional, but it was closer, and I started

350
00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:53,800
Speaker 2: doing some work that there was an engineer that worked

351
00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:57,359
Speaker 2: for Richie Podler that was quitting the business. He was

352
00:21:57,440 --> 00:22:00,679
Speaker 2: going to move back to Florida. And we're tug boats.

353
00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:02,720
Speaker 2: I don't know what that has to do with engineering,

354
00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:05,720
Speaker 2: but anyway, I said, do you think Richie and This

355
00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:07,960
Speaker 2: would hire me? And he said, well he should because

356
00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:11,399
Speaker 2: he'd heard all of what I was doing. And I said, well,

357
00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:14,920
Speaker 2: let's bug him. And so for two months. I don't

358
00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:17,560
Speaker 2: know how many times Tommy, the other engineer ever bugged him,

359
00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:21,439
Speaker 2: but I bugged him like crazy for two solid months,

360
00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:24,280
Speaker 2: and finally he wouldn't answer my calls a lot of

361
00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:26,399
Speaker 2: the time because he knew why I was calling. I

362
00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:30,160
Speaker 2: went over to corner him one day, and I said,

363
00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:32,160
Speaker 2: you know, just give me a shot. That's all I'm

364
00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:35,440
Speaker 2: asking for. See, I'm telling you now, I don't blame

365
00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:37,440
Speaker 2: him because it only been like two and a half

366
00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:39,960
Speaker 2: years since I had that aha moment where I didn't

367
00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:42,600
Speaker 2: I barely knew what an equalizer from a limiter was.

368
00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:46,040
Speaker 2: So here I am by now that studio American Recording

369
00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:51,480
Speaker 2: was the hottest rock studio in Los Angeles. His biggest

370
00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:54,080
Speaker 2: client was a guy named Gabriel Meckler who produced Three

371
00:22:54,119 --> 00:23:01,119
Speaker 2: dog Nights first album and Steppenwolf's first album. And so

372
00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:03,560
Speaker 2: Richie was really kicking it. But I begged him to

373
00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:06,080
Speaker 2: give me a shot, and finally he said, all right,

374
00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:08,600
Speaker 2: there's a demo session tomorrow morning. Come in and do that.

375
00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:11,320
Speaker 2: Tell me what you know, let's see what you can do.

376
00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:14,680
Speaker 2: So I went in. The demo sessions were like for publishers,

377
00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:19,120
Speaker 2: where songwriter would come in, record four tracks, four new songs,

378
00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:22,440
Speaker 2: put vocals on him, quick mixes, and go out the door.

379
00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:24,960
Speaker 2: And then they would go make acetate little one off

380
00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:28,800
Speaker 2: records that they would send to different artists or record

381
00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:31,440
Speaker 2: companies to try to get their songs placed. So they

382
00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:35,480
Speaker 2: were just demos, and he felt comfortable, comfortable leaving me

383
00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:39,359
Speaker 2: with that. So I did that for screen Gems Lester

384
00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:46,919
Speaker 2: Sills Company and I and I called him that you

385
00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:49,119
Speaker 2: know that afternoon. I said, well, they said, well, they

386
00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:51,480
Speaker 2: said you were great. I said, okay, what now? He said, well,

387
00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:54,320
Speaker 2: tomorrow morning there's a different company, come in and do

388
00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:57,200
Speaker 2: their same thing. Okay. So I went and did that,

389
00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:00,920
Speaker 2: called him the afternoon, same thing. Okay. Now he said,

390
00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:04,400
Speaker 2: all right, come tomorrow night and record three dog night. Okay,

391
00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:08,000
Speaker 2: what now? What sense that makes? I have no idea.

392
00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:11,199
Speaker 2: This was his biggest client and he throws this kid in.

393
00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:13,919
Speaker 2: I don't get it. Scared to death. I went in

394
00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:17,320
Speaker 2: the next night. Both the producer and the band were

395
00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:21,520
Speaker 2: really nice, sweet to me, and I cut a track

396
00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:24,440
Speaker 2: with him and called Richie the next day and I said,

397
00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:27,040
Speaker 2: what did Gabriel say? He said, you were great? Okay,

398
00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:30,280
Speaker 2: what now? He said, come tonight, do it again. Okay.

399
00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:34,240
Speaker 2: I went in and cut a second track next morning,

400
00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:37,439
Speaker 2: same thing, all right. Third night, I'm in with the

401
00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:41,240
Speaker 2: band and the guitar player, Mike alsoon the guitar player

402
00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:44,879
Speaker 2: wanted a guitar effect, and I'm sure that from the

403
00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:47,920
Speaker 2: first album that Richie engineered that he knew that Richie

404
00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:51,280
Speaker 2: could do anything with the guitar and so, and I'm

405
00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:53,160
Speaker 2: being a keyboard player. I didn't know how to get

406
00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:55,879
Speaker 2: any of those effects. So I had to call Richie

407
00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:57,960
Speaker 2: and he came down and finished the session. That was

408
00:24:57,960 --> 00:24:59,760
Speaker 2: the end of me tracking on that album. But I

409
00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:03,679
Speaker 2: did do overdubs, and most importantly, I got in that

410
00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:06,280
Speaker 2: room every chance I could to watch Richie because he

411
00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:12,200
Speaker 2: really was an unbelievably brilliant engineer, and that's what pushed

412
00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:12,639
Speaker 2: me off.

413
00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:17,160
Speaker 1: Let's go back a chapter. You get involved with Bike Kurb.

414
00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:22,359
Speaker 1: Anybody who's ever involved with Bike Kerb could never get

415
00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:26,520
Speaker 1: out of his tentacles. Whereas you say, hey, a couple

416
00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:29,520
Speaker 1: of sides and that was it. There are people might go,

417
00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:32,000
Speaker 1: you know, you still owe me two more albums this

418
00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:34,440
Speaker 1: and that. What was your experience with bike CERB. Was

419
00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:36,440
Speaker 1: it as clean as it what you said just now

420
00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:37,119
Speaker 1: and in the book?

421
00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:43,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, basically it was. It was because you know what

422
00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:48,320
Speaker 2: happened was Richie started. We cut one track, one track

423
00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:52,399
Speaker 2: that day that I had my AHA moment, and then Richie,

424
00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:54,119
Speaker 2: you know, I said, Okay, when do we come back?

425
00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:56,320
Speaker 2: He said, it'll be a few days. I kept calling.

426
00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:59,280
Speaker 2: Finally he said, Mike and I are on the outside.

427
00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:00,919
Speaker 2: Don't think I'm going to be able to work with you.

428
00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:03,960
Speaker 2: And so I went to Mike Curb to his office,

429
00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:06,639
Speaker 2: which at that time was down on Sunset. It was

430
00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:11,639
Speaker 2: Sidewalk Productions Curb Sidewalk. Yeah, and the office consisted of

431
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:17,240
Speaker 2: his sister Carol. That was it. And I said, well

432
00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:20,000
Speaker 2: what do we do now? And we're sitting there in

433
00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:22,200
Speaker 2: the office and I remember and what a cheeky little

434
00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:25,480
Speaker 2: kid I was, because you know, he started making a

435
00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:28,560
Speaker 2: suggestion of some kind. I said, maybe I could produce us,

436
00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:31,960
Speaker 2: and he said we could try that. He had his

437
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:36,440
Speaker 2: own studio, so he said, yeah, go ahead and try it. Meanwhile,

438
00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:41,280
Speaker 2: when we got dropped from Decca, our drummer, our drummer's

439
00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:43,920
Speaker 2: father made him quit the band and get a real job,

440
00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:48,399
Speaker 2: and so I said, we don't have a drummer, and

441
00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:50,840
Speaker 2: he said, well, the engineer in my studio is a

442
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:53,520
Speaker 2: really good drummer. And I said, and he can play

443
00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:56,840
Speaker 2: the drums. And engineer, oh, yeah, it's possible. It'll be fine.

444
00:26:57,359 --> 00:27:01,280
Speaker 2: And so we went in did that. Cute stories about

445
00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:07,120
Speaker 2: that in the book, But the bottom line is everything

446
00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:12,320
Speaker 2: fell apart with the band, and and because he had

447
00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:16,000
Speaker 2: next to nothing literally invested in us, there were no

448
00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:20,560
Speaker 2: there were no tentacles to get wrapped around. So it

449
00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:23,320
Speaker 2: was it was basically a short and sweet relationship.

450
00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:27,120
Speaker 1: Although you did interact with Mike. Did he know anything

451
00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:29,919
Speaker 1: about music? Did you have the sense he was going

452
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:36,200
Speaker 1: to go somewhere? What? How did he come across back then?

453
00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:39,680
Speaker 2: No, I had no idea he knew anything about music.

454
00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:43,280
Speaker 2: He didn't talk in musical terms. Uh, now I'm going

455
00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:47,679
Speaker 2: by what my meant. My mentor, Richie Podler said the

456
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:51,520
Speaker 2: reason they broke up was Richie was doing all the

457
00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:54,600
Speaker 2: work and Mike was getting all the credit slash money,

458
00:27:55,160 --> 00:28:00,199
Speaker 2: and Richie demanded that he get credit and or you know,

459
00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:03,200
Speaker 2: points for the work he was doing, and Mike refused.

460
00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:06,240
Speaker 2: That's Richie's story. I'm sure Mike has a different one.

461
00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:11,080
Speaker 2: I will say, however, that in those early years when

462
00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:13,439
Speaker 2: I was able to talk Richie, when he allowed me

463
00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:17,680
Speaker 2: to start working there, a couple of the producers quote

464
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:20,520
Speaker 2: unquote that I worked with were very much like that.

465
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:24,439
Speaker 2: They found out that I was very musical and I

466
00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:29,000
Speaker 2: basically was doing more producing than they were, and they

467
00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:32,920
Speaker 2: got all the credit. So there was a bit more

468
00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:35,159
Speaker 2: of that back then. As you know, the business was

469
00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:40,240
Speaker 2: kind of transforming, because you know, in the fifties and sixties,

470
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:44,040
Speaker 2: the producer most often worked at the record company, and

471
00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:47,320
Speaker 2: it was about you know, finding maybe finding songs, and

472
00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:50,120
Speaker 2: then getting the arranger and the studio and putting it

473
00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:53,200
Speaker 2: all together and there was your record. There were exceptions,

474
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:55,800
Speaker 2: but that was the bulk of what went on back then.

475
00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:00,360
Speaker 2: And so as we're transitioning into i'll call it rock

476
00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:02,840
Speaker 2: air for lack of anything else, as multi track, and

477
00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:07,160
Speaker 2: ultimately engineering would become a lot more part of the

478
00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:10,840
Speaker 2: production process than just capturing what was going on live

479
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:17,800
Speaker 2: in the studio. This had this transformation brought in different

480
00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:21,080
Speaker 2: kinds of producers, and unfortunately a lot of them were,

481
00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:24,400
Speaker 2: as I said, kind of that's what they did. So

482
00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:27,760
Speaker 2: I have no first hand experience about Mike in that regard.

483
00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:39,560
Speaker 1: Your father, who wanted you to be a professional, did

484
00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:43,120
Speaker 1: he ever ultimately respect what you did.

485
00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:48,480
Speaker 2: Put it to you this way. Two years before he died,

486
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:54,520
Speaker 2: I had I had two Grammy nominations and maybe eight

487
00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:57,920
Speaker 2: or ten No, No, six or eight gold records, and

488
00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:01,160
Speaker 2: he literally sat me down and said, Bill, when are

489
00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:03,600
Speaker 2: you going to get a real job. And I looked

490
00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:05,920
Speaker 2: him and I looked at him and I said, Dad,

491
00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:08,960
Speaker 2: I think I found my job. It's something I love doing.

492
00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:12,320
Speaker 2: I think I'm good at it, and I've already had

493
00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:15,800
Speaker 2: some success. I really want to do this. No, you

494
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:18,160
Speaker 2: can't trust it as a profession. You know a lot

495
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:22,800
Speaker 2: about that. So he was old school, you know, old

496
00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:26,640
Speaker 2: school guy from Austria, and what can I say? He

497
00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:32,320
Speaker 2: was self made guy and very bright and from what

498
00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:37,880
Speaker 2: I hear, a very good surgeon. He went to NYU

499
00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:41,960
Speaker 2: undergrad and then went to France actually because it was

500
00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:46,320
Speaker 2: cheaper for med school, came back and opened up his

501
00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:50,480
Speaker 2: practice on Long Island. World War two came and government

502
00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:54,360
Speaker 2: said we need you, and so they put him at

503
00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:58,160
Speaker 2: Ford or to California, where he put something like twenty

504
00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:01,800
Speaker 2: six hundred servicemen back to other And when the war

505
00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:06,240
Speaker 2: was over, he was he'd had it with medicine. So

506
00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:09,960
Speaker 2: he took a couple of classes in business and got

507
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:14,120
Speaker 2: into administrative medicine, managing a clinic or hospital or something.

508
00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:16,920
Speaker 1: And how about your mother? Was she supportive?

509
00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:23,240
Speaker 2: Yeah? She was. Everything Billy does is great, So yeah,

510
00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:27,560
Speaker 2: she was very supportive. But you know, The funny thing

511
00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:34,280
Speaker 2: about that is only since the book, since the book,

512
00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:36,600
Speaker 2: and the people that write me having read the book,

513
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:40,600
Speaker 2: it may sound silly, I don't know of it. I mean,

514
00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:43,000
Speaker 2: I figured it out halfway through writing the book. I

515
00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:46,160
Speaker 2: just lived my life, you know, and I went from

516
00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:48,280
Speaker 2: this project to that project. And I knew I'd worked

517
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:49,680
Speaker 2: with a lot of big people. I knew I had

518
00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:53,040
Speaker 2: a lot of awards and all that stuff, but it

519
00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:58,200
Speaker 2: didn't coalesce into something that I could actually be proud of.

520
00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:01,120
Speaker 2: And about halfway through writing the book, and since writing

521
00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:02,760
Speaker 2: the book, the people that write me, some of the

522
00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:06,160
Speaker 2: stories I'm told just are amazing to me that the

523
00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:09,600
Speaker 2: music pop music, R and B music and whatnot meant

524
00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:13,080
Speaker 2: so so, so so much to so many people. And

525
00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:19,720
Speaker 2: I'm especially tickled by the professionals. I've got two aerospace

526
00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:23,320
Speaker 2: engineers in Florida that I communicate with, the head of

527
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:29,320
Speaker 2: legal for Coca Cola. I communicate with him and he

528
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:33,680
Speaker 2: actually went to Atlanta and had lunch with him once.

529
00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:40,000
Speaker 2: But yeah, I always used to joke that when I

530
00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:41,720
Speaker 2: tell that about my dad, and I say, if I

531
00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:44,160
Speaker 2: ever go to a psychiatrist, I'm sure that's where it

532
00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:47,760
Speaker 2: will start. Well, funny enough, I've never thought about it

533
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:49,880
Speaker 2: that way, but I kind of did it in reverse

534
00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:52,400
Speaker 2: when all these people started telling me how much what

535
00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:54,440
Speaker 2: I did meant to them, because I didn't get that

536
00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:57,600
Speaker 2: from my father. So that was cool.

537
00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:02,640
Speaker 1: Okay. Also peeped picture of the music scene in LA

538
00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:06,480
Speaker 1: when the La teens are forming. You know, at that

539
00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:10,320
Speaker 1: point in Los Angeles there were a lot of independent labels.

540
00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:15,400
Speaker 1: There was a lot happening. Was that palpable to everybody

541
00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:19,240
Speaker 1: living in the Los Angeles area? Were people music crazy

542
00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:21,400
Speaker 1: or it was just something you were into? What was

543
00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:22,120
Speaker 1: the scene like?

544
00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:28,240
Speaker 2: Well, you know, as I've learned after becoming professional and

545
00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:31,280
Speaker 2: going back and you know, listening to the records back

546
00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:34,160
Speaker 2: then with a new light and so on. You know,

547
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:36,200
Speaker 2: we were just we were in a suburb of LA

548
00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:40,080
Speaker 2: doing our own little thing, and you know, we had

549
00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:42,240
Speaker 2: really we did a Battle of the bands and were

550
00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:47,760
Speaker 2: shocked to death. We didn't win, but in Hollywood, amazing

551
00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:54,360
Speaker 2: the things you remember, the hurts. But I have to say,

552
00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:56,920
Speaker 2: we weren't aware of anything really of what was going on.

553
00:33:57,200 --> 00:33:59,400
Speaker 2: We were just were doing our own little thing and

554
00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:01,560
Speaker 2: it happened to work out kind of good.

555
00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:08,480
Speaker 1: Okay, you're working for Richie put Alore and you're doing

556
00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:11,200
Speaker 1: some sessions. What's the next step after that?

557
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:18,640
Speaker 2: The next step is Richie took over producing. After that

558
00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:21,640
Speaker 2: second Three Dog Night album, he took over producing Three

559
00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:24,400
Speaker 2: Dog Night and he actually produced the lion's share of

560
00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:27,640
Speaker 2: the hits for them through the seventies into the eighties,

561
00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:32,960
Speaker 2: and he took over Steppenwolf and now he was, you know,

562
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:35,040
Speaker 2: a year and a half, two years into it, he's

563
00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:38,120
Speaker 2: really popular, and so he's getting all kinds of offers.

564
00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:39,520
Speaker 2: And I went to him and I said, Richie, I

565
00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:43,680
Speaker 2: got a great idea. Let's close the studio to outside clients.

566
00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:46,400
Speaker 2: You know, groups are going to be hitting you up.

567
00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:49,239
Speaker 2: They already are you funnel them to me and get

568
00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:52,200
Speaker 2: my production career going, and you know, they signed to

569
00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:55,399
Speaker 2: your production company. And he loved that idea. He said

570
00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:58,640
Speaker 2: that that's great, we'll do it. And so he signed

571
00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:02,640
Speaker 2: a band and gave him to me, and I went

572
00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:05,879
Speaker 2: in and cut one track with them. They were called

573
00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:13,600
Speaker 2: The Realm, and they and then Richie started a See

574
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:15,640
Speaker 2: in those days, I should back up. In those days,

575
00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:19,600
Speaker 2: in the studios they were a lot of them were

576
00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:22,320
Speaker 2: basically divided to a day client and a night client,

577
00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:25,680
Speaker 2: so quite often that's what it would be. You'd have

578
00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:29,399
Speaker 2: to reset up every night if you were the night client,

579
00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:32,640
Speaker 2: if you had a long booking. So he was starting

580
00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:35,920
Speaker 2: a three dog I mean a Steppenwolf album, and he

581
00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:38,439
Speaker 2: didn't want to have to tear down, so he said,

582
00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:39,840
Speaker 2: you know, you're going to have to take a break

583
00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:43,920
Speaker 2: till I get all my tracks done. Well, you know

584
00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:46,480
Speaker 2: that one week turned into two weeks, turned into I

585
00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:51,320
Speaker 2: don't know how many, and funny enough, his production company

586
00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:53,840
Speaker 2: was only paying me when I was in the studio,

587
00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:57,440
Speaker 2: so I said, I'm going to have to go independent, Richie,

588
00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:00,560
Speaker 2: and he said, fine, go go. So that's when I

589
00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:04,120
Speaker 2: went off on my own, and which was frightening for me,

590
00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:09,200
Speaker 2: because he his studio, he knew what he was doing,

591
00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:11,840
Speaker 2: and I did. I just copied everything he did in

592
00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:14,759
Speaker 2: terms of micing and so on. And I tried doing

593
00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:16,839
Speaker 2: that when I went into the first studio I went

594
00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:20,680
Speaker 2: to and the second, and even though they had brand new,

595
00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:24,680
Speaker 2: beautiful consoles and you know, newer speakers and newer this

596
00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:27,160
Speaker 2: and newer that, I couldn't get anything close to the

597
00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:30,040
Speaker 2: sound that I got at his studio. And that's when

598
00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:37,040
Speaker 2: my experimentation started full bore. So I'm I'm humping along.

599
00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:41,239
Speaker 2: And so that's by the way. Right before I left

600
00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:43,960
Speaker 2: Richie's was when I had started law school to shut

601
00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:49,120
Speaker 2: my dad up, and so I'm independent. When when the

602
00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:54,279
Speaker 2: second semester starts and I said, you know, I quit

603
00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:56,600
Speaker 2: my band. I quit college for two and a half

604
00:36:56,719 --> 00:36:59,440
Speaker 2: years to chase my band. What I'm going to do

605
00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:01,600
Speaker 2: is quit law school for a year and a half

606
00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:07,319
Speaker 2: and see if engineering, producing whatever can support me. So

607
00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:10,080
Speaker 2: that's what I was doing the best best I could.

608
00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:13,759
Speaker 2: And I did get one one record company. It was

609
00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:15,600
Speaker 2: one of my clients that I did all the work

610
00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:18,000
Speaker 2: for had managed to get a job at a record

611
00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:26,160
Speaker 2: company and he I found a gospel a black gospel group,

612
00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:29,920
Speaker 2: and he let me do four sides with him. We

613
00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:34,600
Speaker 2: put them out. There was no hits, but we so

614
00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:38,560
Speaker 2: here I am and was a little over a year.

615
00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:42,720
Speaker 2: It's about time to register for the fall, and I'm thinking,

616
00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:45,840
Speaker 2: I'm pretty much thinking I've got to go back and

617
00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:48,680
Speaker 2: get the degree. Shut him up. Maybe he's right, Look,

618
00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:51,160
Speaker 2: this isn't working. I mean, I'm making a living, but

619
00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:54,839
Speaker 2: I don't know. And so I'm mixing one day and

620
00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:57,120
Speaker 2: the girl in front buzzes in and by myself, and

621
00:37:57,160 --> 00:37:59,800
Speaker 2: she buzzes in on the phone and says, Clive Davis

622
00:37:59,840 --> 00:38:01,960
Speaker 2: on one for you, and I'm going b blah blah

623
00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:05,920
Speaker 2: blah blah blah whah. I picked up the phone very nervously. Hello,

624
00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:11,280
Speaker 2: Hi Bill, Clive Davis, I said Hi. He said, Joel

625
00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:14,680
Speaker 2: still tells me that you are a very good musician

626
00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:17,800
Speaker 2: and engineer. Oh thank you. He said, what do you

627
00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:19,719
Speaker 2: want to do with your life? And I said, well,

628
00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:22,279
Speaker 2: I would love to do music, but and I was

629
00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:24,839
Speaker 2: starting to say but my dad wants me to and

630
00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:27,800
Speaker 2: he said, wait, wait, stop, I went to law school.

631
00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:29,400
Speaker 2: You don't need to go to law school if you

632
00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:33,680
Speaker 2: want to do music, you know. And I said yeah,

633
00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:36,640
Speaker 2: but and basically he took the butt away. He said,

634
00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:38,719
Speaker 2: what if I let you? What if I sign you

635
00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:42,480
Speaker 2: and let you give you a chance to produce? And

636
00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:45,560
Speaker 2: I said, well that works. I'll try that for sure.

637
00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:51,720
Speaker 2: And so the first thing, the first thing I did

638
00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:57,799
Speaker 2: was actually with Joel again, with me basically doing the

639
00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:00,759
Speaker 2: lion's share of the work. And it was a group

640
00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:04,480
Speaker 2: called Sweat Hoog and we funny enough, we got lucky,

641
00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:07,600
Speaker 2: and the first single was a hit, not big one,

642
00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:10,800
Speaker 2: so I think in the high twenties or something, low thirties,

643
00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:14,959
Speaker 2: I don't know. And but that that led led the way,

644
00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:20,520
Speaker 2: that's what and that's what got the ball rolling higher

645
00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:21,040
Speaker 2: and faster.

646
00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:24,880
Speaker 1: Okay, you worked with Clive, he did you a solid,

647
00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:28,040
Speaker 1: he gave you the gig. But what was your experience

648
00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:30,880
Speaker 1: working for Clive to the degree even interacted with.

649
00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:38,640
Speaker 2: Him very very good, And not just because he gave

650
00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:42,520
Speaker 2: me that shot, Because I mean all of my dealings

651
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:46,960
Speaker 2: with him throughout the years have all been have all

652
00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:49,400
Speaker 2: been good. Did I agree with everything he said or

653
00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:52,000
Speaker 2: wanted to do. No, we all have our opinions, but

654
00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:54,600
Speaker 2: we're not all, you know, the chairman of the board,

655
00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:57,880
Speaker 2: of the head of the company and whatever whatever. And

656
00:39:57,920 --> 00:40:01,359
Speaker 2: I so but everything that all of my in those

657
00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:04,480
Speaker 2: early years, I learned a lot from him. You know,

658
00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:06,839
Speaker 2: he leaned you know, he was seeing what the kid

659
00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:10,160
Speaker 2: could do, and it was really great. One funny one

660
00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:12,360
Speaker 2: funny story is I think the very first thing he

661
00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:15,560
Speaker 2: gave me to do was Boz Skaggs, who I would

662
00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:18,000
Speaker 2: later go on to produce Boz Skags. It was his

663
00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:25,600
Speaker 2: first album for CBS, and again Glenn Johns had produced it,

664
00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:28,840
Speaker 2: and there was a single and you know, in those days,

665
00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:35,080
Speaker 2: especially AM radio, We're talking nineteen seventy AM radio was

666
00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:37,719
Speaker 2: the playlist had to be. You know, they varied, but

667
00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:40,000
Speaker 2: it was like, you know, three minutes and thirty seconds

668
00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:42,160
Speaker 2: and blah blah blah. So he said, I need a

669
00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:45,600
Speaker 2: radio edit on this song. See what you can come

670
00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:48,920
Speaker 2: up with. So I made the edit. He loved it.

671
00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:53,239
Speaker 2: And then the next year was when Glenn came to

672
00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:58,680
Speaker 2: America to master Who's Next Who album And that's when

673
00:40:58,680 --> 00:41:00,800
Speaker 2: I met him at the mastering lab where I'm mastered

674
00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:04,719
Speaker 2: and where Glenn mastered, and I was very nervous meeting

675
00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:06,759
Speaker 2: him for the first time, and I said, you know,

676
00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:10,440
Speaker 2: I'm the guy that did the radio edit on we

677
00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:12,799
Speaker 2: were always sweethearts. And he looked at me in his

678
00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:15,960
Speaker 2: typical dry voice and said, oh, you're the idiot that

679
00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:18,359
Speaker 2: mucked it all up. And then he broke right away

680
00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:20,839
Speaker 2: and said, I'm just kidding. It was a good edit.

681
00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:23,719
Speaker 2: And of course, now to him, I would have said,

682
00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:25,480
Speaker 2: your darn right, it was a good edit. But right

683
00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:26,440
Speaker 2: then I went, thank you.

684
00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:30,640
Speaker 1: So how long did you work for CBS and what

685
00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:32,920
Speaker 1: did you do there other than boz guys.

686
00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:39,000
Speaker 2: Okay. So from there one Sweat, Hog Hit. So went

687
00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:43,400
Speaker 2: to New York to do Blood, Sweat and Tears, the

688
00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:47,359
Speaker 2: new Blood album after which is new Blood because David

689
00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:51,080
Speaker 2: Clayton Thomas, the great singer in those first couple of albums,

690
00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:57,520
Speaker 2: had left the band and they wanted to record near

691
00:41:57,600 --> 00:42:00,400
Speaker 2: their houses. So we recorded a studio and at New

692
00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:07,480
Speaker 2: York and we cut like five tracks, and then the

693
00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:10,680
Speaker 2: plan was we went into the city to record vocals

694
00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:13,440
Speaker 2: with the new singer, who I hadn't met, and so

695
00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:16,080
Speaker 2: we showed up one night and waited and waited, and

696
00:42:16,239 --> 00:42:19,680
Speaker 2: of course no cell phones and everyone's trying to find him,

697
00:42:19,719 --> 00:42:24,480
Speaker 2: and he didn't show And the next day they called

698
00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:27,720
Speaker 2: me in the hotel and said, well, we got a problem.

699
00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:31,080
Speaker 2: We just found out he's an alcoholic and he's on

700
00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:33,320
Speaker 2: a binge. So we got to find a new singer.

701
00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:39,359
Speaker 2: So okay, So, knowing that that was going to take

702
00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:43,120
Speaker 2: a long time, called Clive and said, I don't know

703
00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:46,960
Speaker 2: what to do. He said, well, come back, I'll find

704
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:53,160
Speaker 2: something funny enough Steve Tyrell. After they found a new singer,

705
00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:57,279
Speaker 2: Steve Tyrell, who many years later I would do it

706
00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:03,720
Speaker 2: mix all of his records was took over and finished

707
00:43:03,719 --> 00:43:06,520
Speaker 2: that new Blood album. One of the many tie ins

708
00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:08,520
Speaker 2: with people from the beginning to the end. That's kind

709
00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:12,480
Speaker 2: of neat. So I came back to LA and he said, okay,

710
00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:17,279
Speaker 2: White Trash. I said, oh great, you know that'll be great.

711
00:43:17,640 --> 00:43:19,759
Speaker 2: I said, who, do I talk to Edgar? And he

712
00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:24,000
Speaker 2: said no, actually Edgar has left White Trash, but the singer,

713
00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:28,320
Speaker 2: the great singer, Jerry Lacroix, is still there. So okay.

714
00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:31,720
Speaker 2: So I met with Jerry. We started talking production ideas.

715
00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:35,400
Speaker 2: He played me the songs he had written, and he

716
00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:39,000
Speaker 2: was not a big writer on Edgar's album, and I

717
00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:43,320
Speaker 2: didn't care for his songs. So I got some songs

718
00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:46,799
Speaker 2: and he didn't care for the songs I did. So

719
00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:50,600
Speaker 2: I got started and it was just an uphill battle.

720
00:43:50,600 --> 00:43:53,560
Speaker 2: It wasn't working, and one of the guys in his

721
00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:56,960
Speaker 2: band really wanted to produce the band, and I called

722
00:43:56,960 --> 00:43:59,200
Speaker 2: Clive and said, you know, I don't think I can

723
00:43:59,520 --> 00:44:02,440
Speaker 2: work on that. You know, you're going to have to

724
00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:06,120
Speaker 2: figure out it's kind of a scene here and he said, okay,

725
00:44:06,120 --> 00:44:11,040
Speaker 2: all right. So that was that and before now you

726
00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:14,479
Speaker 2: can imagine here I thought I was. I thought, oh boy,

727
00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:18,640
Speaker 2: my big break well. Sweat Hog broke up after the

728
00:44:18,680 --> 00:44:21,560
Speaker 2: first album, Sweat Hog breaks up, Blood, Sweat and Tears,

729
00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:25,160
Speaker 2: we can't finish the album, and now White Trash isn't working.

730
00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:28,839
Speaker 2: Every time. It was maybe my dad's right, that's all

731
00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:31,840
Speaker 2: I'm thinking, Maybe my dad's right. And CBS had a

732
00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:36,200
Speaker 2: very strange policy studios at the time. It was very, very,

733
00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:39,360
Speaker 2: very very that's three varies, I'll give it four varies.

734
00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:46,919
Speaker 2: Strange policy from their union, and the union rules were

735
00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:49,920
Speaker 2: that nobody but a union engineer could touch the console

736
00:44:51,360 --> 00:44:58,000
Speaker 2: and okay, and so in the meantime. The other strange

737
00:44:58,000 --> 00:45:01,240
Speaker 2: thing they did. They had a big section I don't remember,

738
00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:06,759
Speaker 2: but about nine ten engineers, but only one assistant engineer.

739
00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:10,400
Speaker 2: And so what they did was if you weren't working

740
00:45:11,320 --> 00:45:15,000
Speaker 2: either mixing or recording, book to record or mix, they

741
00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:18,239
Speaker 2: put you as a second on a session, which was

742
00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:20,920
Speaker 2: kind of weird because one day you could be recording

743
00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:25,240
Speaker 2: some huge artist and the next week you're engineering an

744
00:45:25,239 --> 00:45:30,280
Speaker 2: assistant engineer on a demo. Very strange, but whatever. Anyway,

745
00:45:31,239 --> 00:45:33,560
Speaker 2: I was sitting around with nobody calling me to mix,

746
00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:37,239
Speaker 2: and so they were trying to be respectful, you know,

747
00:45:37,320 --> 00:45:39,759
Speaker 2: I'm sure Clive had told them about me and the

748
00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:43,000
Speaker 2: plans that he had for me, so they didn't let

749
00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:45,280
Speaker 2: me work. But some of the young guys were really

750
00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:48,200
Speaker 2: upset about the fact that I was sitting around not

751
00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:52,279
Speaker 2: doing anything. See, I had been I had been an

752
00:45:52,320 --> 00:45:55,000
Speaker 2: independent engineer, as I mentioned earlier, one of the first

753
00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:58,880
Speaker 2: in LA and I didn't think it was a tremendous

754
00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:00,440
Speaker 2: amount of money, but it was more more than you

755
00:46:00,440 --> 00:46:04,640
Speaker 2: could make working for the CBS. So Clive I told

756
00:46:04,719 --> 00:46:07,680
Speaker 2: him about that problem, and they hired me at top scale.

757
00:46:08,360 --> 00:46:11,160
Speaker 2: And so the young guys were very perturbed about that,

758
00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:15,879
Speaker 2: needless to say, and in fact, I'll never forget when

759
00:46:15,880 --> 00:46:18,719
Speaker 2: I'm the night manager took me around. They put me

760
00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:21,239
Speaker 2: on the night shift. First, took me around to meet

761
00:46:21,320 --> 00:46:23,400
Speaker 2: whoever was there working. And I went into the break

762
00:46:23,480 --> 00:46:25,920
Speaker 2: room and here are the three young guys and one

763
00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:29,160
Speaker 2: of them, you know, he introduces me. That guy introduces me,

764
00:46:29,160 --> 00:46:30,560
Speaker 2: and the one guy looks at him says, are you

765
00:46:30,600 --> 00:46:33,959
Speaker 2: a cop? And I said, no, I'm not a cop.

766
00:46:34,560 --> 00:46:36,600
Speaker 2: And I had been told that they were trying to

767
00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:39,320
Speaker 2: get them fired because they knew they were doing drugs,

768
00:46:39,320 --> 00:46:44,720
Speaker 2: well pot anyway. And so later when I became friends

769
00:46:44,719 --> 00:46:47,080
Speaker 2: with that guy. I said, do you think if there

770
00:46:47,120 --> 00:46:48,960
Speaker 2: was a cop being hired that they would hire him

771
00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:51,279
Speaker 2: at top scale? They'd hire some guy that, you know,

772
00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:53,000
Speaker 2: mealy mouth guy that sat in the back of the

773
00:46:53,080 --> 00:46:55,560
Speaker 2: room and did nothing. You know, you must have been high.

774
00:46:55,600 --> 00:46:58,680
Speaker 2: I don't get it. So they put me in to

775
00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:01,120
Speaker 2: shut those young guys up. They put me in as

776
00:47:01,120 --> 00:47:05,840
Speaker 2: a second on a Barbara Streisand session with Richard Perry producing,

777
00:47:07,000 --> 00:47:10,080
Speaker 2: And I'm just there running the tape machine and you know,

778
00:47:10,200 --> 00:47:14,960
Speaker 2: doing whatever the engineer wants. And after about five days

779
00:47:14,960 --> 00:47:18,799
Speaker 2: in the studio, and I never asked him why, I know,

780
00:47:18,840 --> 00:47:21,759
Speaker 2: I had a You may know, I had a very

781
00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:25,640
Speaker 2: long and prosperous relationship for both of us with Richard Perry,

782
00:47:25,719 --> 00:47:29,200
Speaker 2: a lot of very very big albums. But for some reason,

783
00:47:29,880 --> 00:47:33,080
Speaker 2: after five days of recording, he turned to the engineer

784
00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:36,560
Speaker 2: and said, I want to build an engineer tomorrow. And

785
00:47:38,520 --> 00:47:40,799
Speaker 2: the engineer wasn't too happy about that. He hadn't done

786
00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:43,839
Speaker 2: anything wrong as far as I knew. But that's when

787
00:47:43,840 --> 00:47:49,160
Speaker 2: I started, you know, with basically with Richard, and also

788
00:47:49,200 --> 00:47:55,200
Speaker 2: when I started realizing what engineering could be. Because here

789
00:47:55,280 --> 00:48:00,160
Speaker 2: I was sitting with a holding a fader, hold a

790
00:48:00,239 --> 00:48:04,560
Speaker 2: knob that fifty feet away is a microphone that this

791
00:48:04,719 --> 00:48:08,839
Speaker 2: unbelievable singer is emoting into. And one of my first

792
00:48:08,880 --> 00:48:11,000
Speaker 2: titles for the book was going to be best seat

793
00:48:11,040 --> 00:48:14,440
Speaker 2: in the House, because boy, when you're doing that, you

794
00:48:14,600 --> 00:48:16,840
Speaker 2: have the best seat in the house, a seat that

795
00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:20,800
Speaker 2: might include swearing even sometimes. But no, Barbara didn't swear.

796
00:48:20,840 --> 00:48:23,319
Speaker 2: I don't remember Barbera swearing. But she and I hit

797
00:48:23,360 --> 00:48:30,160
Speaker 2: it off really really well, and had hadn't have a

798
00:48:30,280 --> 00:48:32,520
Speaker 2: great relationship. I worked with her over the years, and

799
00:48:33,040 --> 00:48:34,880
Speaker 2: I may not be the only one, but I'm the

800
00:48:34,920 --> 00:48:37,480
Speaker 2: only engineer that I know of that's worked with Barbara

801
00:48:37,760 --> 00:48:42,120
Speaker 2: any excuse me, any amount of time that I have

802
00:48:42,200 --> 00:48:44,480
Speaker 2: to say, I never had a problem with her. You know,

803
00:48:44,560 --> 00:48:49,040
Speaker 2: she's very demanding, she's extremely intelligent. She is demanding. But

804
00:48:50,719 --> 00:48:56,360
Speaker 2: i've other than other than on a live orchestra session,

805
00:48:56,600 --> 00:48:59,160
Speaker 2: she didn't like her headphone mix. I had to work

806
00:48:59,280 --> 00:49:02,200
Speaker 2: work that out a little bit. You know, there's a

807
00:49:02,239 --> 00:49:04,759
Speaker 2: lot of pressure. You know, I realized that she's sitting

808
00:49:04,760 --> 00:49:07,759
Speaker 2: there with eighty pieces out there, and she has to

809
00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:10,280
Speaker 2: give a performance and so on, so I understand a little.

810
00:49:10,680 --> 00:49:14,280
Speaker 2: But I got her headphones together and everything was fine. Anyway,

811
00:49:14,320 --> 00:49:21,040
Speaker 2: what happened is people like Richard Perry that wanted to

812
00:49:21,040 --> 00:49:24,640
Speaker 2: touch the controls. He wanted to ride the faders, and

813
00:49:25,160 --> 00:49:29,040
Speaker 2: some of the engineers would report him to the union

814
00:49:29,200 --> 00:49:31,239
Speaker 2: and so they would come in and you know, bark

815
00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:33,840
Speaker 2: at Richard. And he wasn't the only one, but Clive

816
00:49:33,960 --> 00:49:37,040
Speaker 2: was getting other people that wanted to be able to,

817
00:49:37,480 --> 00:49:39,719
Speaker 2: you know, touch I don't know that any of them

818
00:49:39,760 --> 00:49:42,200
Speaker 2: wanted to engineer necessarily, but just to be able to,

819
00:49:42,760 --> 00:49:44,719
Speaker 2: you know, touch the faders if they wanted to play

820
00:49:44,719 --> 00:49:47,440
Speaker 2: with the balances. And so he went to the union

821
00:49:47,480 --> 00:49:50,600
Speaker 2: and said, you need to change that rule and they,

822
00:49:51,880 --> 00:49:56,040
Speaker 2: I'm sure, with all the pride they had, they went, well,

823
00:49:56,080 --> 00:49:59,239
Speaker 2: we're not going to And he said, you don't understand.

824
00:49:59,520 --> 00:50:03,400
Speaker 2: I can't let you in your rule affect my creative

825
00:50:04,880 --> 00:50:07,719
Speaker 2: creativity in my record company. I have to be able

826
00:50:07,719 --> 00:50:10,600
Speaker 2: to hire people that I want and if they won't

827
00:50:10,640 --> 00:50:13,279
Speaker 2: work because of your union rule, that that's not going

828
00:50:13,360 --> 00:50:16,959
Speaker 2: to work. And they said, we're sorry, and he said,

829
00:50:17,760 --> 00:50:20,480
Speaker 2: one more time, I'm closing the studios if you don't

830
00:50:20,560 --> 00:50:24,279
Speaker 2: change your rule. He closed the studios, but I don't

831
00:50:24,280 --> 00:50:26,920
Speaker 2: know how many people out of work, just a snap

832
00:50:27,680 --> 00:50:31,120
Speaker 2: and who can blame him? I have to say, you know,

833
00:50:31,560 --> 00:50:35,040
Speaker 2: like I said, the business was definitely changing. And uh,

834
00:50:35,160 --> 00:50:39,440
Speaker 2: you know obviously right after that the engineer producer became

835
00:50:39,480 --> 00:50:44,759
Speaker 2: a thing in England and here, uh and you know

836
00:50:44,920 --> 00:50:48,000
Speaker 2: it wasn't going to work and they didn't, you know,

837
00:50:48,120 --> 00:50:54,760
Speaker 2: they didn't change with the times.

838
00:50:57,880 --> 00:51:02,359
Speaker 1: Okay, Richard's he says, he wants you to engineer. There

839
00:51:02,440 --> 00:51:05,920
Speaker 1: must have been something that Tree inspired, something that you

840
00:51:06,200 --> 00:51:08,080
Speaker 1: did that he wanted you.

841
00:51:10,080 --> 00:51:13,440
Speaker 2: If I knew, Bob, i'd tell you. I promise I have,

842
00:51:14,080 --> 00:51:16,160
Speaker 2: you know, I think of it my time. Back then

843
00:51:17,640 --> 00:51:20,360
Speaker 2: we were in Studio A, and the tape machine was

844
00:51:20,400 --> 00:51:24,840
Speaker 2: in like this secondary room, no walls, been a secondary

845
00:51:24,920 --> 00:51:27,479
Speaker 2: room off to the left of the control room where

846
00:51:27,560 --> 00:51:29,160
Speaker 2: you know, he can see me and I can see him.

847
00:51:29,200 --> 00:51:32,160
Speaker 2: You know, you could you know, throw a tennis ball

848
00:51:32,200 --> 00:51:35,279
Speaker 2: and hit him in the head. But you know, and

849
00:51:35,360 --> 00:51:38,440
Speaker 2: I was, I was so shy, and you know, I

850
00:51:38,520 --> 00:51:41,359
Speaker 2: wasn't scared to run the tape machine or anything. But

851
00:51:41,719 --> 00:51:43,440
Speaker 2: I don't know that, I said. Maybe he asked me

852
00:51:43,480 --> 00:51:46,040
Speaker 2: a couple of questions and I answered them the way

853
00:51:46,080 --> 00:51:49,359
Speaker 2: he liked. I don't know, I have no idea, like

854
00:51:49,440 --> 00:51:55,600
Speaker 2: I said, considering how many hours, days, weeks, months, years

855
00:51:55,719 --> 00:51:58,439
Speaker 2: I spent in a control room with him. I'm really

856
00:51:58,480 --> 00:52:00,640
Speaker 2: sorry I never asked him what was it that made

857
00:52:00,640 --> 00:52:03,319
Speaker 2: you want to give me a shot at the first chair?

858
00:52:03,600 --> 00:52:04,480
Speaker 2: But I never did it.

859
00:52:04,640 --> 00:52:08,880
Speaker 1: Okay, So now you're behind the board with Richard.

860
00:52:10,440 --> 00:52:10,680
Speaker 2: Ay.

861
00:52:11,200 --> 00:52:14,759
Speaker 1: How sophisticated is the board at that point? And what

862
00:52:14,800 --> 00:52:18,720
Speaker 1: does he tell you to do or not to do? Well?

863
00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:22,160
Speaker 2: He he was trying to figure every he you know,

864
00:52:22,239 --> 00:52:27,560
Speaker 2: he was pretty young in his career, he was, yeah,

865
00:52:27,600 --> 00:52:32,920
Speaker 2: he and he was still learning things about about recording.

866
00:52:33,480 --> 00:52:37,040
Speaker 2: So he didn't know what a compressor did or a

867
00:52:37,040 --> 00:52:39,800
Speaker 2: limitter did, but he knew equalizers made things brighter or

868
00:52:39,880 --> 00:52:44,759
Speaker 2: duller or basier or whatever. But I remember, I don't

869
00:52:44,760 --> 00:52:47,080
Speaker 2: remember him even turning those. The main thing he wanted

870
00:52:47,080 --> 00:52:50,799
Speaker 2: to do was, well, the thing was playing. He wanted to,

871
00:52:51,160 --> 00:52:53,640
Speaker 2: you know, pull the piano. Rather than tell the engineer

872
00:52:53,680 --> 00:52:56,080
Speaker 2: what to do, he wanted to just do it, you know,

873
00:52:56,200 --> 00:52:57,960
Speaker 2: so he started That's what he would do, is just

874
00:52:58,000 --> 00:53:01,360
Speaker 2: start playing with the balance on a play back. And

875
00:53:01,360 --> 00:53:05,759
Speaker 2: and not all the time either, but uh, you know,

876
00:53:06,000 --> 00:53:08,919
Speaker 2: basically though, he would trance, you know, he would give

877
00:53:08,960 --> 00:53:11,640
Speaker 2: me his whatever thoughts he had on what to do,

878
00:53:12,000 --> 00:53:15,480
Speaker 2: and I would do them. He was he was very eloquent.

879
00:53:16,120 --> 00:53:18,640
Speaker 1: What was his special sauce? You work with a number

880
00:53:18,640 --> 00:53:22,080
Speaker 1: of producers, what was special about him vis a vis

881
00:53:22,120 --> 00:53:22,719
Speaker 1: somebody else?

882
00:53:23,920 --> 00:53:26,080
Speaker 2: Uh, let's see where do I start? I guess I

883
00:53:26,120 --> 00:53:31,799
Speaker 2: start with a great song, since, especially if he's if

884
00:53:31,800 --> 00:53:35,120
Speaker 2: he's finding songs for an artist, like he did obviously

885
00:53:35,120 --> 00:53:38,480
Speaker 2: for Barbara or the Pointer sisters. He found, you know,

886
00:53:38,520 --> 00:53:42,920
Speaker 2: all the songs for their illustrious career. He gave them.

887
00:53:44,160 --> 00:53:46,560
Speaker 2: He worked best that way. He didn't work as well

888
00:53:46,560 --> 00:53:52,640
Speaker 2: with single artists. I remember I'm independent now and he's

889
00:53:52,680 --> 00:53:56,920
Speaker 2: in England doing the No Secrets album, your Sylvaine album

890
00:53:56,960 --> 00:54:00,160
Speaker 2: with Carl Simon, and he still thought of me. He

891
00:54:00,239 --> 00:54:02,160
Speaker 2: knew that I was this guy that came from Richie

892
00:54:02,160 --> 00:54:06,440
Speaker 2: Podler's rock studio. So and I had done rock, produced

893
00:54:06,520 --> 00:54:10,200
Speaker 2: rock stuff, or tried to when when I was at CBS.

894
00:54:10,239 --> 00:54:12,880
Speaker 2: So that's how he thought of me. So he recorded

895
00:54:12,920 --> 00:54:16,480
Speaker 2: the album and mixed all but two songs in England

896
00:54:16,480 --> 00:54:21,400
Speaker 2: with Robin Cable, and he called me and said, there's

897
00:54:21,680 --> 00:54:24,239
Speaker 2: I'm coming back and next week I want you to

898
00:54:24,239 --> 00:54:26,480
Speaker 2: get a studio. There's two rock songs. That I want

899
00:54:26,520 --> 00:54:30,520
Speaker 2: you to mix and I said okay, and so he

900
00:54:31,680 --> 00:54:36,720
Speaker 2: that's what I did. And he was late for this session,

901
00:54:36,880 --> 00:54:39,920
Speaker 2: as he always was, but Carly was on time the

902
00:54:39,920 --> 00:54:45,560
Speaker 2: first mixing session and she we got She we hit

903
00:54:45,600 --> 00:54:48,600
Speaker 2: it off right away, with her telling me what a

904
00:54:49,719 --> 00:54:52,360
Speaker 2: it was a nightmare. I've never I've never screamed at

905
00:54:52,400 --> 00:54:55,279
Speaker 2: anyone before I had to. I was I had to

906
00:54:55,320 --> 00:54:59,200
Speaker 2: go and get sedatives in England. I said, really said, yeah,

907
00:54:59,280 --> 00:55:02,719
Speaker 2: he was you. He's so stubborn. She's just going through

908
00:55:02,719 --> 00:55:05,839
Speaker 2: all this, you know. Wow. In fact, I remember when

909
00:55:05,880 --> 00:55:10,480
Speaker 2: we mastered that record, she was dating James Taylor and

910
00:55:11,600 --> 00:55:14,279
Speaker 2: James went outside, I think, for a cigarette and I

911
00:55:14,360 --> 00:55:17,200
Speaker 2: went out to talk to him while Doug Sax was

912
00:55:17,239 --> 00:55:20,720
Speaker 2: mastering the album and he was sitting there and he said,

913
00:55:22,280 --> 00:55:23,839
Speaker 2: I told him. I said, you know, she said it

914
00:55:23,880 --> 00:55:26,080
Speaker 2: was really rough on her. And he said, oh my gosh,

915
00:55:26,200 --> 00:55:30,319
Speaker 2: I'll never let her work with him again. And of

916
00:55:30,360 --> 00:55:35,239
Speaker 2: course you know how that works with success. And now

917
00:55:35,280 --> 00:55:37,759
Speaker 2: maybe we can make another exception or two or three.

918
00:55:39,200 --> 00:55:43,359
Speaker 2: But yeah, so yeah. But then so Richard, I mixed

919
00:55:43,360 --> 00:55:46,880
Speaker 2: the two rock songs, and Richard, always looking for something better,

920
00:55:47,200 --> 00:55:49,160
Speaker 2: said why don't we try and mix on this song.

921
00:55:49,360 --> 00:55:53,400
Speaker 2: Oh okay, and that came out great, and yeah, I

922
00:55:53,520 --> 00:55:54,760
Speaker 2: mixed the whole album over.

923
00:55:56,280 --> 00:56:01,040
Speaker 1: Yes, But ultimately he went with Keybles mix of your

924
00:56:01,120 --> 00:56:02,480
Speaker 1: Sylvain correct.

925
00:56:03,400 --> 00:56:08,160
Speaker 2: Yes, And I promised myself I would I would forgive

926
00:56:08,239 --> 00:56:12,279
Speaker 2: Doug for doing this, for he was because of Doug

927
00:56:12,400 --> 00:56:17,600
Speaker 2: Sachs and what it was. I thought my mix was

928
00:56:17,719 --> 00:56:24,280
Speaker 2: better in every way, and Doug did until one time.

929
00:56:24,400 --> 00:56:27,000
Speaker 2: I see about the fourth time he's listening to it.

930
00:56:27,080 --> 00:56:29,880
Speaker 2: Initially he said, oh, yeah, this is really good, and

931
00:56:29,920 --> 00:56:34,080
Speaker 2: then he noticed that before every chorus when Jim Gordon,

932
00:56:34,160 --> 00:56:38,560
Speaker 2: the drummer starts off with Clouds in my Coffee, that

933
00:56:38,880 --> 00:56:41,440
Speaker 2: there's starts with the bass drum going to the toms.

934
00:56:41,880 --> 00:56:44,879
Speaker 2: That the bass trum that was the only the bass

935
00:56:44,920 --> 00:56:47,799
Speaker 2: drum on my mix was a little bit softer than

936
00:56:47,840 --> 00:56:51,480
Speaker 2: it was on Robin's. And it's the kind of thing

937
00:56:51,920 --> 00:56:55,239
Speaker 2: I promise you that the compression on both AM and

938
00:56:55,360 --> 00:57:00,600
Speaker 2: FM radio would more than have taken up and stated

939
00:57:00,600 --> 00:57:03,840
Speaker 2: for But as soon as he showed that to Richard,

940
00:57:04,120 --> 00:57:06,600
Speaker 2: that's all it took. So he went with the mix

941
00:57:07,120 --> 00:57:08,759
Speaker 2: and it is what it is, and it am there.

942
00:57:09,800 --> 00:57:13,080
Speaker 1: So let's say I listened you know you're close to it.

943
00:57:13,440 --> 00:57:17,440
Speaker 1: But if the average person, not completely unsophisticated but not

944
00:57:17,560 --> 00:57:21,280
Speaker 1: a pro, listen to your mix or the single mix

945
00:57:21,320 --> 00:57:24,160
Speaker 1: that went out, how different were they?

946
00:57:29,280 --> 00:57:36,720
Speaker 2: Well? How do I put that in words? Mine? Certainly,

947
00:57:36,720 --> 00:57:39,840
Speaker 2: not Night and Day. Certainly not night and day. There's

948
00:57:39,840 --> 00:57:42,480
Speaker 2: some guitars in there that mine were a little louder

949
00:57:43,160 --> 00:57:46,640
Speaker 2: that when I hear it that because they're down they weren't.

950
00:57:47,040 --> 00:57:50,040
Speaker 2: You know, I know the compression would have done that

951
00:57:50,120 --> 00:57:53,360
Speaker 2: because the only thing playing before every chorus is that

952
00:57:53,480 --> 00:57:57,360
Speaker 2: drum and her voice. And even though even though she's

953
00:57:57,400 --> 00:58:00,720
Speaker 2: louder in every mix than the drum, it would have

954
00:58:00,800 --> 00:58:02,520
Speaker 2: caught it. It would have pulled her to that and

955
00:58:02,560 --> 00:58:06,480
Speaker 2: the drum would have come up. But like the guitars,

956
00:58:06,520 --> 00:58:09,600
Speaker 2: the things that I like about my mix better very

957
00:58:10,080 --> 00:58:12,680
Speaker 2: to this day when I hear it on the radio. Yeah,

958
00:58:12,840 --> 00:58:15,040
Speaker 2: that's one of the things I know was better about mine.

959
00:58:15,520 --> 00:58:18,400
Speaker 2: I don't know that I'd have to hear it again

960
00:58:18,440 --> 00:58:20,600
Speaker 2: to remember to hear them back to back.

961
00:58:20,640 --> 00:58:25,240
Speaker 1: You remember, okay, you track the Barber Streiss in the album.

962
00:58:25,920 --> 00:58:28,000
Speaker 1: Then when it comes to mixing some of it, some

963
00:58:28,120 --> 00:58:31,280
Speaker 1: of it, okay, Then what happens when it comes to mixing.

964
00:58:34,240 --> 00:58:38,840
Speaker 2: Again. The album was halfway done when I got involved,

965
00:58:39,280 --> 00:58:43,960
Speaker 2: and some of it was already mixed by the other

966
00:58:44,000 --> 00:58:51,000
Speaker 2: engineer and whatnot. But the songs that we finished, I mixed,

967
00:58:51,960 --> 00:58:56,200
Speaker 2: I think just about half of them. And that I

968
00:58:56,240 --> 00:58:58,760
Speaker 2: had heard people had told me about working with Richard

969
00:58:58,800 --> 00:59:01,240
Speaker 2: what it was like on the previous album, which is

970
00:59:01,240 --> 00:59:05,560
Speaker 2: the album that that put Barbara in the modern era,

971
00:59:05,880 --> 00:59:11,520
Speaker 2: out of you know, out of her Broadway stuff. They said,

972
00:59:11,680 --> 00:59:15,720
Speaker 2: they said that, you know, they talked about the maniacal

973
00:59:15,760 --> 00:59:19,840
Speaker 2: ways of Richard, and they said, for instance, that he kept,

974
00:59:20,200 --> 00:59:22,960
Speaker 2: whether it was he or Barbara or both, they kept

975
00:59:23,160 --> 00:59:27,640
Speaker 2: an orchestra till one in the morning, which they went

976
00:59:27,640 --> 00:59:31,240
Speaker 2: into overtime. It was at seven o'clock start. They went

977
00:59:31,280 --> 00:59:35,160
Speaker 2: into overtime at ten oh one. And I don't know

978
00:59:35,200 --> 00:59:38,280
Speaker 2: when Golden Times started back then, but you know, those

979
00:59:38,400 --> 00:59:41,480
Speaker 2: musicians made a lot of money. You know, they're also

980
00:59:41,600 --> 00:59:43,600
Speaker 2: not the kind of musicians that are used to playing

981
00:59:43,640 --> 00:59:47,160
Speaker 2: that long, that hard, but my orchestra, but they kept

982
00:59:47,200 --> 00:59:51,040
Speaker 2: them there. So the mixing, another thing I had heard

983
00:59:51,240 --> 00:59:54,480
Speaker 2: is that he'll do lots and lots of mixes, and

984
00:59:54,840 --> 00:59:59,120
Speaker 2: indeed he did lots and lots of mixes. The only

985
00:59:59,160 --> 01:00:01,440
Speaker 2: thing in the mix he he insistent on riding the

986
01:00:01,520 --> 01:00:06,640
Speaker 2: vocal and that would stay till till whenever. The last

987
01:00:06,640 --> 01:00:09,320
Speaker 2: thing I did with him was he always rode the vocal,

988
01:00:09,360 --> 01:00:14,160
Speaker 2: which drove me a little crazy because I like to

989
01:00:14,240 --> 01:00:17,840
Speaker 2: ride the vocal. You know, I'm really big on the vocalist.

990
01:00:17,880 --> 01:00:19,880
Speaker 2: I really try to protect them and put them in

991
01:00:19,920 --> 01:00:23,280
Speaker 2: the best light always because that's that's what they live by.

992
01:00:24,080 --> 01:00:25,960
Speaker 2: And not that he didn't do a good job, but

993
01:00:26,000 --> 01:00:28,480
Speaker 2: it was just frustrating for me with the track because

994
01:00:28,480 --> 01:00:31,880
Speaker 2: I'm kind of usually the vocalist following the track, leading

995
01:00:31,920 --> 01:00:34,480
Speaker 2: the track, albeit but following the track. So here I

996
01:00:34,520 --> 01:00:38,080
Speaker 2: am with the track following him. But we did okay.

997
01:00:38,640 --> 01:00:42,400
Speaker 1: So other than riding the vocal, you do a mix

998
01:00:43,200 --> 01:00:45,800
Speaker 1: and what kind of complaints would he have? What would

999
01:00:45,840 --> 01:00:48,000
Speaker 1: he want redone? What would you want change?

1000
01:00:49,200 --> 01:00:53,400
Speaker 2: Oh? He was famous for finding anything and everything. You

1001
01:00:53,440 --> 01:00:57,200
Speaker 2: know up you know, it starts with you know, maybe

1002
01:00:57,200 --> 01:01:01,280
Speaker 2: the congas are too loud, Okay, turn the congress down. Maybe.

1003
01:01:01,320 --> 01:01:04,240
Speaker 2: And by the way, when we started with like with

1004
01:01:04,400 --> 01:01:11,480
Speaker 2: Barbara and uh and no Secrets for sure, uh. And

1005
01:01:11,520 --> 01:01:17,040
Speaker 2: I think the next album with her, I think there

1006
01:01:17,080 --> 01:01:20,720
Speaker 2: was no automation. It was definitely every time you're mixing,

1007
01:01:20,760 --> 01:01:23,960
Speaker 2: you mist and that was I love doing that. I

1008
01:01:24,000 --> 01:01:27,000
Speaker 2: loved it. In fact, when we finally got moving fader automation,

1009
01:01:27,400 --> 01:01:29,520
Speaker 2: where you would move the faders and it went into

1010
01:01:29,560 --> 01:01:32,280
Speaker 2: a computer and then the computer would play back your

1011
01:01:32,360 --> 01:01:36,560
Speaker 2: moves which you could override. But I had to get

1012
01:01:36,640 --> 01:01:39,000
Speaker 2: used to letting the computer help me. I didn't want

1013
01:01:39,000 --> 01:01:43,600
Speaker 2: any help. I wanted to do it all myself. And

1014
01:01:43,680 --> 01:01:48,080
Speaker 2: so anyway he would find, he would find some excuse

1015
01:01:48,560 --> 01:01:53,240
Speaker 2: always and kept doing it. And you never you never

1016
01:01:53,560 --> 01:01:56,240
Speaker 2: were satisfied. You never bore that sounds great, you know,

1017
01:01:56,280 --> 01:01:59,200
Speaker 2: you never got that. It was like he'll he'll go

1018
01:01:59,640 --> 01:02:02,720
Speaker 2: listen to it and mastering, and quite often we'll come

1019
01:02:02,720 --> 01:02:05,600
Speaker 2: back and mix it again. In fact, the funny story

1020
01:02:05,600 --> 01:02:08,480
Speaker 2: about that if I can jump ahead, although not that

1021
01:02:08,600 --> 01:02:14,720
Speaker 2: far ahead, is on the Ringo album. Well before that,

1022
01:02:15,600 --> 01:02:19,200
Speaker 2: speaking of that maniacal Ways, Jeff Percaro, the great drummer,

1023
01:02:19,720 --> 01:02:22,560
Speaker 2: told me a story about his maniacal ways. This is

1024
01:02:23,160 --> 01:02:28,880
Speaker 2: like in nineteen eight, seventy eighty one or something. He said,

1025
01:02:28,920 --> 01:02:32,440
Speaker 2: we were doing a tracking session and you know, Richard

1026
01:02:32,480 --> 01:02:34,920
Speaker 2: in his usual wake, you know, we did two or

1027
01:02:34,960 --> 01:02:36,840
Speaker 2: three takes, and then they came in and listened, and

1028
01:02:36,880 --> 01:02:38,680
Speaker 2: he found something to do, and they went out and

1029
01:02:38,680 --> 01:02:42,680
Speaker 2: did another take or two came in and listened and

1030
01:02:43,040 --> 01:02:45,840
Speaker 2: just one more guys, So they went back out and

1031
01:02:46,360 --> 01:02:49,720
Speaker 2: did one more. Jeff said, they came in, they listened

1032
01:02:49,760 --> 01:02:53,320
Speaker 2: to it and everyone's that's the one. And Jeff said,

1033
01:02:53,400 --> 01:02:55,560
Speaker 2: I turned here and I said, Richard, that's the one,

1034
01:02:55,840 --> 01:02:58,120
Speaker 2: and he went, yeah, it's really good. But I think

1035
01:02:58,120 --> 01:03:00,800
Speaker 2: if we just do no, Richard, you don't understan that

1036
01:03:01,000 --> 01:03:04,680
Speaker 2: is the one we're going with. He said, But just

1037
01:03:04,680 --> 01:03:08,200
Speaker 2: what Richard, next song or we leave? And that was it.

1038
01:03:08,760 --> 01:03:12,400
Speaker 2: He threw down the gauntlet. But on the Ringo album

1039
01:03:14,200 --> 01:03:19,400
Speaker 2: eight years earlier, something we knew that the song Photograph

1040
01:03:19,600 --> 01:03:23,960
Speaker 2: was going to be the first single, and so Richard

1041
01:03:24,560 --> 01:03:27,840
Speaker 2: and here, you know, this was arguably his biggest shot

1042
01:03:28,000 --> 01:03:31,640
Speaker 2: at that time. It was working with all the Beatles,

1043
01:03:32,320 --> 01:03:34,880
Speaker 2: and so I knew we were going to mix it

1044
01:03:35,000 --> 01:03:38,400
Speaker 2: several times. So we mixed it and again each time

1045
01:03:38,400 --> 01:03:43,320
Speaker 2: we mix it, it's like, you know, five mixes printed. You know,

1046
01:03:43,400 --> 01:03:46,360
Speaker 2: who knows how many we did that weren't printed. He

1047
01:03:46,440 --> 01:03:49,160
Speaker 2: goes in the mastering lab and listens to to it.

1048
01:03:49,400 --> 01:03:50,760
Speaker 2: And he goes, you know, I think if we do

1049
01:03:50,840 --> 01:03:53,720
Speaker 2: this and do that, we went back in. He said, okay,

1050
01:03:54,320 --> 01:03:56,880
Speaker 2: So we did another group of mixes, went back to

1051
01:03:56,920 --> 01:04:01,360
Speaker 2: the mastering lab, same thing. Okay, we got it. Now,

1052
01:04:01,400 --> 01:04:03,480
Speaker 2: we got it. But can I just hear that first

1053
01:04:03,520 --> 01:04:07,240
Speaker 2: mixed first day? Yeah? See that was better there. Okay

1054
01:04:07,880 --> 01:04:10,760
Speaker 2: again there's I have to do this by hand. You know,

1055
01:04:11,040 --> 01:04:13,160
Speaker 2: it's not like going back like we do today and

1056
01:04:13,240 --> 01:04:16,800
Speaker 2: the computer has everything exactly where it was. It's you know,

1057
01:04:17,320 --> 01:04:21,600
Speaker 2: it's a new mix every time. So back we go,

1058
01:04:22,320 --> 01:04:25,800
Speaker 2: and I thought we had it. We go into the

1059
01:04:25,800 --> 01:04:29,880
Speaker 2: mastering lab, play it and he plays them. Doug says, boy,

1060
01:04:30,040 --> 01:04:32,720
Speaker 2: I think you got it, Richard, And he said, yeah, Doug,

1061
01:04:32,800 --> 01:04:34,920
Speaker 2: it's really good. And he turns to me. But I

1062
01:04:35,000 --> 01:04:37,760
Speaker 2: know that if we just and I interrupted him. I said, Richard, no,

1063
01:04:38,320 --> 01:04:41,640
Speaker 2: He said no. What I said, you me and that

1064
01:04:41,760 --> 01:04:44,520
Speaker 2: sixteen track tape will never be in the same room

1065
01:04:44,560 --> 01:04:47,480
Speaker 2: at the same time again. If you want it mixed,

1066
01:04:47,680 --> 01:04:51,040
Speaker 2: get someone else, or I go in alone. Oh funny, Bill,

1067
01:04:51,080 --> 01:04:53,960
Speaker 2: I've got Richard. I'm not kidding. And I went in

1068
01:04:54,160 --> 01:04:57,760
Speaker 2: alone and mixed it by myself, as if I didn't

1069
01:04:57,760 --> 01:04:59,920
Speaker 2: know what he wanted out of it after all those.

1070
01:04:59,680 --> 01:05:06,520
Speaker 1: Times, okay, all those times. Did it make a difference.

1071
01:05:11,800 --> 01:05:15,600
Speaker 2: To the studios in my bank account? Of course not,

1072
01:05:17,200 --> 01:05:19,080
Speaker 2: you know, a difference to who. That's the way you

1073
01:05:19,120 --> 01:05:21,600
Speaker 2: have to answer that question, because that's what we do

1074
01:05:21,640 --> 01:05:25,080
Speaker 2: as creatives. You know, does it make a difference. It

1075
01:05:25,120 --> 01:05:27,840
Speaker 2: matters to me. I go through all these gyrations that

1076
01:05:27,880 --> 01:05:31,080
Speaker 2: we spoke about earlier with trying to make digital as

1077
01:05:31,080 --> 01:05:33,200
Speaker 2: good as I can possibly make it. And I have

1078
01:05:33,280 --> 01:05:37,800
Speaker 2: a friend, an engineer friend who's constantly telling me, is

1079
01:05:37,920 --> 01:05:40,920
Speaker 2: does it really make a difference? And that's what I say.

1080
01:05:41,040 --> 01:05:44,400
Speaker 2: It makes a difference to me. Is it different? Yeah,

1081
01:05:44,480 --> 01:05:48,040
Speaker 2: it's that much better. But when I built my studio,

1082
01:05:48,480 --> 01:05:51,560
Speaker 2: I knew, I mean, that's just how I've always operated.

1083
01:05:51,680 --> 01:05:54,040
Speaker 2: I knew that when I built a studio, how do

1084
01:05:54,120 --> 01:05:57,680
Speaker 2: I make an incredible studio? Well, this one, this studio,

1085
01:05:57,760 --> 01:06:00,800
Speaker 2: they all have the same stuff. They ad mites got headphones,

1086
01:06:00,840 --> 01:06:02,440
Speaker 2: they got you know, they got what they got. But

1087
01:06:02,640 --> 01:06:06,040
Speaker 2: this studio has incredible mics. This studio doesn't have such

1088
01:06:06,040 --> 01:06:08,240
Speaker 2: a good headphone system. Bail blah blah. You just got

1089
01:06:08,280 --> 01:06:12,480
Speaker 2: to have everything nailed. So that's that's what you tried.

1090
01:06:12,520 --> 01:06:16,160
Speaker 2: To do and by by you know, by ten percent

1091
01:06:16,200 --> 01:06:18,360
Speaker 2: here and ten percent there, and ten percent here and

1092
01:06:18,440 --> 01:06:22,240
Speaker 2: five percent there, and eventually you get up to forty

1093
01:06:22,280 --> 01:06:25,440
Speaker 2: five fifty percent. That makes a difference. So today with

1094
01:06:25,560 --> 01:06:28,800
Speaker 2: the digital, especially with the way things are recorded, so

1095
01:06:28,880 --> 01:06:32,520
Speaker 2: many you know, I get so few sessions that are

1096
01:06:32,560 --> 01:06:36,240
Speaker 2: done by all professional people. You know, so many people

1097
01:06:36,320 --> 01:06:38,640
Speaker 2: are recording. You know, they send it to the bass

1098
01:06:38,640 --> 01:06:40,480
Speaker 2: player who puts on the bass, and they send it

1099
01:06:40,480 --> 01:06:42,760
Speaker 2: to the drummer who puts on the drums in his house.

1100
01:06:43,080 --> 01:06:44,960
Speaker 2: And some of those are very very good, don't get

1101
01:06:45,000 --> 01:06:48,200
Speaker 2: me wrong. Some of them are not very good and whatnot.

1102
01:06:48,840 --> 01:06:51,440
Speaker 2: But you know, I mean I remember when it started,

1103
01:06:51,920 --> 01:06:56,480
Speaker 2: you know, decades ago, with with people and doing home recording,

1104
01:06:57,080 --> 01:07:00,480
Speaker 2: and uh, it's just and it doesn't hold it. It's

1105
01:07:00,520 --> 01:07:05,080
Speaker 2: not like it used to be that one engineer primarily

1106
01:07:05,480 --> 01:07:09,360
Speaker 2: for most parts, sat through the recording process, the tracking process,

1107
01:07:09,440 --> 01:07:12,800
Speaker 2: and the overdubbing process. Now maybe they didn't mix. They

1108
01:07:12,800 --> 01:07:16,080
Speaker 2: would send it to somebody that who was known for mixing,

1109
01:07:16,280 --> 01:07:18,880
Speaker 2: like myself, and they like that because they get a

1110
01:07:18,880 --> 01:07:20,880
Speaker 2: fresh look on it as opposed to the guy that's

1111
01:07:20,960 --> 01:07:25,760
Speaker 2: been in the trenches for months doing it. But uh,

1112
01:07:26,160 --> 01:07:29,040
Speaker 2: you know, I think it's a it's a worthwhile way

1113
01:07:29,080 --> 01:07:33,080
Speaker 2: of looking at it. So that's you know, did it

1114
01:07:33,160 --> 01:07:35,240
Speaker 2: make a difference to Richard? It did?

1115
01:07:43,680 --> 01:07:46,600
Speaker 1: Okay, let me use it because I'm sure Richard was concerned.

1116
01:07:47,160 --> 01:07:51,480
Speaker 1: Do you think it made a difference in the commercial success.

1117
01:07:53,440 --> 01:07:57,400
Speaker 2: For the most part, And if we're talking about from

1118
01:07:57,520 --> 01:08:01,440
Speaker 2: the first time we mixed a song, I won't. I won't. Well,

1119
01:08:01,880 --> 01:08:04,200
Speaker 2: from from the first time he mixed a song to

1120
01:08:04,280 --> 01:08:07,360
Speaker 2: the whatever time didn't make a difference. No, probably not.

1121
01:08:07,800 --> 01:08:10,440
Speaker 2: Those were all close enough on Richard with me mixing

1122
01:08:11,520 --> 01:08:15,000
Speaker 2: now what I did sometimes and I remember I had

1123
01:08:15,040 --> 01:08:17,960
Speaker 2: a friend from the east visiting me, East coast visiting

1124
01:08:18,000 --> 01:08:24,040
Speaker 2: me once and I think it was David Sanborn album

1125
01:08:25,680 --> 01:08:29,080
Speaker 2: and had I had the mix before Richard. You know,

1126
01:08:29,120 --> 01:08:32,280
Speaker 2: I would get the mix where I liked it, and

1127
01:08:32,400 --> 01:08:35,840
Speaker 2: Richard would come in and my friend heard it and

1128
01:08:35,920 --> 01:08:41,920
Speaker 2: watched it, watched him destroy it, and uh, and it

1129
01:08:42,040 --> 01:08:45,040
Speaker 2: wasn't that album, but on another meaning, meaning what we

1130
01:08:45,120 --> 01:08:47,160
Speaker 2: ended up with wasn't as good as where it started.

1131
01:08:48,040 --> 01:08:51,519
Speaker 2: And it was one time I can't remember what album,

1132
01:08:51,560 --> 01:08:53,880
Speaker 2: but there was definitely one time where where I made

1133
01:08:53,960 --> 01:08:56,559
Speaker 2: him go back and listen to the first mix, Richard.

1134
01:08:56,600 --> 01:08:58,439
Speaker 2: I want you to hear where I had it when

1135
01:08:58,479 --> 01:09:01,080
Speaker 2: you showed up three four hours go. And I played

1136
01:09:01,160 --> 01:09:03,920
Speaker 2: him that first mix, and he goes, you're right, it

1137
01:09:03,960 --> 01:09:08,400
Speaker 2: does feel better kind And I said, you know, here's

1138
01:09:08,439 --> 01:09:13,280
Speaker 2: the thing, Richard could never think. He the way I've

1139
01:09:13,439 --> 01:09:17,479
Speaker 2: said is that I want a mix. It's it's not

1140
01:09:17,560 --> 01:09:19,599
Speaker 2: a great analogy, but it's the best one I got.

1141
01:09:19,800 --> 01:09:21,920
Speaker 2: I want a mix to be a beautiful.

1142
01:09:21,560 --> 01:09:22,400
Speaker 1: Lush forest.

1143
01:09:22,840 --> 01:09:26,479
Speaker 2: This forest has all kinds of different trees, and I

1144
01:09:26,520 --> 01:09:28,679
Speaker 2: want it when you look at it, just to go, wow,

1145
01:09:28,720 --> 01:09:33,080
Speaker 2: that is beautiful. Richard wants to investigate every tree. Is

1146
01:09:33,120 --> 01:09:36,000
Speaker 2: that pine tree in the back high enough? Okay, let's

1147
01:09:36,000 --> 01:09:39,080
Speaker 2: try it higher? You know what? You know? What about

1148
01:09:39,080 --> 01:09:43,280
Speaker 2: this palm tree over here? You know, okay, let's try it.

1149
01:09:43,320 --> 01:09:46,080
Speaker 2: You'd start playing with all those things, and you got

1150
01:09:46,080 --> 01:09:48,599
Speaker 2: all the trees trimmed the way he wants them. And

1151
01:09:48,640 --> 01:09:51,080
Speaker 2: it doesn't. But it doesn't feel the same. And you can't.

1152
01:09:51,120 --> 01:09:53,720
Speaker 2: You don't know why it isn't you know, because how

1153
01:09:53,760 --> 01:09:56,600
Speaker 2: something feels, it's definitely it's a mix. You know. I

1154
01:09:56,920 --> 01:10:00,320
Speaker 2: was talking to someone yesterday. Cooking is exactly like mixing.

1155
01:10:00,400 --> 01:10:02,679
Speaker 2: To me. Unfortunately, I don't have that skill I wish

1156
01:10:02,760 --> 01:10:05,960
Speaker 2: I did. I love eating, but I can't put the

1157
01:10:06,120 --> 01:10:10,000
Speaker 2: ingredients together. But really good chefs know how to put

1158
01:10:10,160 --> 01:10:13,480
Speaker 2: ingredients together so that when you taste it, you're not analyzing.

1159
01:10:13,560 --> 01:10:15,479
Speaker 2: It's just, oh my gosh, that's great. And that's what

1160
01:10:15,560 --> 01:10:17,840
Speaker 2: I always wanted from Richard, but he couldn't do it.

1161
01:10:18,040 --> 01:10:21,000
Speaker 2: He just he had to look at every single tree.

1162
01:10:21,240 --> 01:10:25,559
Speaker 1: So some albums you tracked but didn't mix, how'd you

1163
01:10:25,600 --> 01:10:26,280
Speaker 1: feel about that?

1164
01:10:29,720 --> 01:10:33,760
Speaker 2: Well, there weren't many, but there were some because of

1165
01:10:34,000 --> 01:10:38,519
Speaker 2: scheduling primarily, or like I know on a couple of

1166
01:10:38,600 --> 01:10:45,519
Speaker 2: Carly's albums where I did some of the recording and

1167
01:10:45,560 --> 01:10:47,280
Speaker 2: then he went to New York to work with New

1168
01:10:47,360 --> 01:10:52,120
Speaker 2: York musicians, or in the third album, her second album,

1169
01:10:52,160 --> 01:10:54,360
Speaker 2: she was pregnant because she didn't want to be away

1170
01:10:54,360 --> 01:10:57,240
Speaker 2: from home so long, and whatever different reasons. He worked

1171
01:10:57,240 --> 01:10:59,880
Speaker 2: in New York and there when he had some things going,

1172
01:11:00,120 --> 01:11:02,160
Speaker 2: mixed some of the stuff there, and some of them

1173
01:11:02,200 --> 01:11:04,439
Speaker 2: I remixed when he came back to LA Some of

1174
01:11:04,479 --> 01:11:10,880
Speaker 2: them stood. But I mean the answer to your question

1175
01:11:11,000 --> 01:11:14,360
Speaker 2: is I'm insecure enough that I would want to mix

1176
01:11:14,760 --> 01:11:17,000
Speaker 2: the things I recorded just because I don't want to

1177
01:11:17,040 --> 01:11:20,320
Speaker 2: hear someone critique me and say, oh, wow, that's the

1178
01:11:20,360 --> 01:11:22,760
Speaker 2: best Shna could do. I don't know if that ever

1179
01:11:22,760 --> 01:11:23,360
Speaker 2: happened or not.

1180
01:11:23,400 --> 01:11:26,760
Speaker 1: Okay, how about let's say you're mixing and you get

1181
01:11:26,800 --> 01:11:33,200
Speaker 1: an album that has different engineers, different studios. Can you

1182
01:11:33,240 --> 01:11:35,920
Speaker 1: make it all sound of a piece or inherently are

1183
01:11:35,960 --> 01:11:36,559
Speaker 1: they different?

1184
01:11:38,720 --> 01:11:41,960
Speaker 2: Well, that's what I was alluding to earlier. No, I mean,

1185
01:11:42,000 --> 01:11:44,000
Speaker 2: you do the best you can with what you've got,

1186
01:11:44,840 --> 01:11:48,800
Speaker 2: you know, and if you if you're handed something like

1187
01:11:48,800 --> 01:11:51,160
Speaker 2: like the No Secrets album that Robin Cable did an

1188
01:11:51,240 --> 01:11:55,880
Speaker 2: outstanding job of recording, you know, I just balanced the

1189
01:11:55,920 --> 01:12:01,640
Speaker 2: thing up and go with it. And you know, some

1190
01:12:01,680 --> 01:12:04,519
Speaker 2: of the other ones. I know, there was one year

1191
01:12:04,680 --> 01:12:08,080
Speaker 2: when I was double nominated for Best Engineered Album, and

1192
01:12:08,120 --> 01:12:11,200
Speaker 2: I didn't think either one deserved to be there. But

1193
01:12:11,240 --> 01:12:14,200
Speaker 2: that's okay. There's a couple of several albums, three or

1194
01:12:14,240 --> 01:12:16,480
Speaker 2: four albums that I always thought should have been nominated

1195
01:12:16,479 --> 01:12:19,920
Speaker 2: that weren't. But whatever. But I was double nominated, and

1196
01:12:19,960 --> 01:12:23,040
Speaker 2: I remember one of them. It cracked me up because

1197
01:12:23,120 --> 01:12:26,599
Speaker 2: it was recorded by the kind of thing you're talking about.

1198
01:12:26,640 --> 01:12:30,280
Speaker 2: It was several engineers. They were all professional, but it

1199
01:12:30,400 --> 01:12:33,960
Speaker 2: definitely there was not a cohesive kind of thing. You know.

1200
01:12:35,640 --> 01:12:39,080
Speaker 2: I think a lot of engineers. I've always thought of

1201
01:12:39,120 --> 01:12:42,439
Speaker 2: myself as a musician that happens to who learned how

1202
01:12:42,439 --> 01:12:45,960
Speaker 2: to engineer, not an engineer that learned how to engineer,

1203
01:12:46,000 --> 01:12:48,240
Speaker 2: and that's what they want to do. I just it's

1204
01:12:48,280 --> 01:12:51,320
Speaker 2: like music. For me. First, it's all about music, and

1205
01:12:51,800 --> 01:12:54,000
Speaker 2: so when you get something that someone else is recorded

1206
01:12:54,000 --> 01:12:56,920
Speaker 2: and you're adding to it, you want to think about

1207
01:12:57,000 --> 01:13:00,000
Speaker 2: what's there now as you start to add other things,

1208
01:13:00,000 --> 01:13:02,760
Speaker 2: things to make it fit in. Richie Podler taught me

1209
01:13:03,200 --> 01:13:06,719
Speaker 2: in the beginning that the mix starts with the tracking session.

1210
01:13:07,160 --> 01:13:09,800
Speaker 2: You start right away with the first thing you put down,

1211
01:13:10,120 --> 01:13:13,120
Speaker 2: and then you know, he said, and I've tried to

1212
01:13:13,120 --> 01:13:16,280
Speaker 2: do it. Every overdub you make, you're putting it where

1213
01:13:16,320 --> 01:13:18,320
Speaker 2: you want it in the mix. You're trying to do that.

1214
01:13:19,479 --> 01:13:22,200
Speaker 2: The joke with another guy that was like that, Al Schmidt.

1215
01:13:22,520 --> 01:13:24,680
Speaker 2: The joke with al Schmidt was if he recorded it,

1216
01:13:24,880 --> 01:13:26,960
Speaker 2: you could put all the faders in a straight line

1217
01:13:27,360 --> 01:13:29,760
Speaker 2: and with a ruler put them all up at a

1218
01:13:29,760 --> 01:13:32,200
Speaker 2: certain level and just push the vocal up a couple

1219
01:13:32,280 --> 01:13:36,400
Speaker 2: over that and there's your mix, and whereas that's not

1220
01:13:36,439 --> 01:13:38,600
Speaker 2: one hundred percent accurate, it's not that far from the

1221
01:13:38,640 --> 01:13:41,720
Speaker 2: truth either. The idea of again of trying to make

1222
01:13:41,720 --> 01:13:43,800
Speaker 2: the mix as you go. But a lot of times

1223
01:13:43,800 --> 01:13:46,920
Speaker 2: some engineers they know the kind of sound they like

1224
01:13:47,000 --> 01:13:49,960
Speaker 2: to get on any instrument and it doesn't fit with

1225
01:13:50,000 --> 01:13:51,760
Speaker 2: what's going on, but they're going to do what they

1226
01:13:51,760 --> 01:13:53,200
Speaker 2: want to do. I don't know.

1227
01:13:54,000 --> 01:13:58,200
Speaker 1: Okay, someone sends you a tape for at this point,

1228
01:13:58,200 --> 01:14:00,840
Speaker 1: it won't be a tape in a file. You put

1229
01:14:00,840 --> 01:14:03,840
Speaker 1: it up. Then how do you build your mix?

1230
01:14:05,680 --> 01:14:08,320
Speaker 2: Okay? For the most I always ask for a rough mix.

1231
01:14:08,520 --> 01:14:11,799
Speaker 2: I always want to hear what I'm what I'm doing.

1232
01:14:12,400 --> 01:14:14,960
Speaker 2: I may if I if I if my initial reaction

1233
01:14:15,160 --> 01:14:18,479
Speaker 2: is oh, that's neat, I may want to listen back

1234
01:14:18,479 --> 01:14:22,080
Speaker 2: to that while I'm mixing. If it's like I don't

1235
01:14:22,120 --> 01:14:24,479
Speaker 2: get it, then that may be the last time I

1236
01:14:24,520 --> 01:14:28,640
Speaker 2: listened to it. But it depends on the kind of

1237
01:14:28,680 --> 01:14:31,120
Speaker 2: song and a lot of different aspects. But for the

1238
01:14:31,160 --> 01:14:34,920
Speaker 2: most part, if I can generalize after I've listened to

1239
01:14:35,000 --> 01:14:40,280
Speaker 2: the to the rough, I usually start with a drum

1240
01:14:40,360 --> 01:14:43,559
Speaker 2: sound that I think is going to make sense, And

1241
01:14:43,600 --> 01:14:46,240
Speaker 2: that depends on you know, how the drums are recorded

1242
01:14:46,280 --> 01:14:48,960
Speaker 2: and what I can do to them for what I think.

1243
01:14:49,000 --> 01:14:51,639
Speaker 2: If it's a powerful song and the drums aren't that powerful,

1244
01:14:51,920 --> 01:14:54,840
Speaker 2: I'll do whatever I can to make them more powerful, uh,

1245
01:14:55,600 --> 01:15:00,760
Speaker 2: that kind of thing. And and I'll usually build the track,

1246
01:15:01,000 --> 01:15:03,880
Speaker 2: you know, with the bass bass then and then if

1247
01:15:03,880 --> 01:15:06,120
Speaker 2: it's a guitar song, the guitars, if it's a keyboard song,

1248
01:15:06,200 --> 01:15:09,599
Speaker 2: the keyboards, and flush out all that stuff to get

1249
01:15:10,120 --> 01:15:13,320
Speaker 2: a track that feels good to me, and then put

1250
01:15:13,320 --> 01:15:18,080
Speaker 2: in the vocal and background vocals and then start adjusting

1251
01:15:18,160 --> 01:15:23,120
Speaker 2: things to surround the vocal and background vocals.

1252
01:15:24,160 --> 01:15:27,919
Speaker 1: Okay, my experience in the studio, which is certainly very limited,

1253
01:15:28,600 --> 01:15:33,559
Speaker 1: but traditionally the engineer only says yes or if they

1254
01:15:33,600 --> 01:15:37,760
Speaker 1: have a different opinion, it's very mild. They don't stand up.

1255
01:15:37,760 --> 01:15:40,920
Speaker 1: What's your experience being an engineer vis a v being

1256
01:15:40,960 --> 01:15:42,799
Speaker 1: a producer, which you've also done.

1257
01:15:45,000 --> 01:15:49,680
Speaker 2: Well before. When I had extremely limited experience going back

1258
01:15:49,720 --> 01:16:00,160
Speaker 2: to CBS and Babs, is that I remember, not on

1259
01:16:00,200 --> 01:16:03,639
Speaker 2: that first album, but I remember on a subsequent album

1260
01:16:04,000 --> 01:16:07,280
Speaker 2: standing up to her and saying, no, you shouldn't do that.

1261
01:16:07,680 --> 01:16:09,479
Speaker 2: And I said, I wrote that in the book. You know,

1262
01:16:09,520 --> 01:16:12,880
Speaker 2: I don't know if that's whatever I said. We had

1263
01:16:12,920 --> 01:16:15,439
Speaker 2: hit it off pretty well from the beginning, and I

1264
01:16:15,479 --> 01:16:17,680
Speaker 2: really enjoyed and I've always enjoyed working with her. But

1265
01:16:18,439 --> 01:16:21,760
Speaker 2: I'm not afraid to tell an artist no if they've

1266
01:16:21,800 --> 01:16:25,400
Speaker 2: got if they've gotten us up on a branch and

1267
01:16:25,439 --> 01:16:28,559
Speaker 2: they're wanting me to saw it off, so you know,

1268
01:16:28,800 --> 01:16:31,640
Speaker 2: tell them no, But you say and here's why. And

1269
01:16:32,760 --> 01:16:35,160
Speaker 2: most of the time they'll respect that. You know, they

1270
01:16:35,760 --> 01:16:38,479
Speaker 2: they've hired you to do a job, and I'm telling

1271
01:16:38,479 --> 01:16:41,000
Speaker 2: you that. You know, if I'm doing my job, I've

1272
01:16:41,040 --> 01:16:42,759
Speaker 2: got to tell you that I don't think you should

1273
01:16:42,760 --> 01:16:46,080
Speaker 2: do this, and here's why. So that doesn't have to

1274
01:16:46,080 --> 01:16:51,599
Speaker 2: happen that often, but it does happen now. In mixing,

1275
01:16:51,640 --> 01:16:57,280
Speaker 2: that's a different thing. I've always said I'm not I

1276
01:16:57,320 --> 01:16:59,320
Speaker 2: have no ego with regard I don't think there's a

1277
01:16:59,320 --> 01:17:01,719
Speaker 2: proof I don't have any or with regard to mixing.

1278
01:17:01,880 --> 01:17:05,160
Speaker 2: I get a mix, I think feels good, you got changes,

1279
01:17:05,200 --> 01:17:07,240
Speaker 2: I'll start making changes. We're not going to lose that

1280
01:17:07,280 --> 01:17:10,519
Speaker 2: mix anymore these days, especially, I can always go back

1281
01:17:10,520 --> 01:17:15,080
Speaker 2: and pick it up where I left off. But but

1282
01:17:15,960 --> 01:17:18,880
Speaker 2: I don't I don't mind you asking you know, I

1283
01:17:18,880 --> 01:17:21,719
Speaker 2: don't think there's anything as one perfect mix and nothing

1284
01:17:21,720 --> 01:17:27,080
Speaker 2: else works. We talked about that already, and I want

1285
01:17:27,240 --> 01:17:29,519
Speaker 2: I want the artist to be happy. As I always said,

1286
01:17:30,040 --> 01:17:32,320
Speaker 2: their name is in big letters on the front of

1287
01:17:32,360 --> 01:17:35,040
Speaker 2: the album. My name is on little teeny letters on

1288
01:17:35,080 --> 01:17:38,120
Speaker 2: the back of the album, if not inside. So I

1289
01:17:38,160 --> 01:17:40,720
Speaker 2: want them to be happy. And as far as I know,

1290
01:17:40,880 --> 01:17:43,880
Speaker 2: I have very good relationship with everyone I worked with.

1291
01:17:44,600 --> 01:17:48,400
Speaker 1: So for you personally, what was the difference between producing

1292
01:17:48,439 --> 01:17:49,880
Speaker 1: and engineering.

1293
01:17:51,760 --> 01:17:56,800
Speaker 2: Control? I mean, in a word, you know, obviously much

1294
01:17:57,080 --> 01:18:03,519
Speaker 2: added responsibility producers the person responsible for there once was

1295
01:18:03,520 --> 01:18:06,959
Speaker 2: nothing and now there's an album. It was literally produced

1296
01:18:07,280 --> 01:18:12,240
Speaker 2: from nothing, so you've got a lot more You've got

1297
01:18:12,240 --> 01:18:14,040
Speaker 2: a lot more control, but a lot more pressure on

1298
01:18:14,320 --> 01:18:19,559
Speaker 2: all the different pieces. And that's I mean, that's what

1299
01:18:19,600 --> 01:18:22,920
Speaker 2: I love the most. But it just you know, it

1300
01:18:22,920 --> 01:18:27,120
Speaker 2: doesn't always work. You know, it's a matter of you know,

1301
01:18:27,280 --> 01:18:29,479
Speaker 2: both of them, I've always said, both of them are

1302
01:18:29,640 --> 01:18:32,759
Speaker 2: servants roles. You're there to serve the artist and their music.

1303
01:18:33,280 --> 01:18:37,240
Speaker 2: That's the most important thing. So it's not about my way,

1304
01:18:38,520 --> 01:18:42,040
Speaker 2: like I have no problem arguing with somebody. But again,

1305
01:18:42,160 --> 01:18:45,599
Speaker 2: their names on the front, so Okay, if you want

1306
01:18:45,600 --> 01:18:47,160
Speaker 2: to do it, we'll do it. But I don't agree.

1307
01:18:48,439 --> 01:18:52,760
Speaker 1: As a producer, how much did you put your tentacles

1308
01:18:52,840 --> 01:18:56,360
Speaker 1: into the creative end of it? Whereas an engineer is

1309
01:18:56,400 --> 01:19:00,200
Speaker 1: kneeling the sound, a producer, certainly talking about Richard, be

1310
01:19:00,240 --> 01:19:03,559
Speaker 1: selecting the material, but also could say, hey, you need

1311
01:19:03,600 --> 01:19:06,040
Speaker 1: a bridge here, let's flip it out, let's start with

1312
01:19:06,040 --> 01:19:08,920
Speaker 1: a chorus, or you know, to what degree would you

1313
01:19:08,960 --> 01:19:10,080
Speaker 1: put your hands in there.

1314
01:19:12,280 --> 01:19:19,040
Speaker 2: I've always equated that aspect as as a contractor. A

1315
01:19:19,040 --> 01:19:21,320
Speaker 2: guy that comes into paint or fix whatever's on. He

1316
01:19:21,360 --> 01:19:24,920
Speaker 2: goes into one room and it's perfect, doesn't need anything,

1317
01:19:25,000 --> 01:19:27,160
Speaker 2: if paint's good and everything. He walks into the next room.

1318
01:19:27,320 --> 01:19:29,680
Speaker 2: Oh this this needs a paint job for sure. He

1319
01:19:29,720 --> 01:19:31,960
Speaker 2: goes in the next room. Oh my gosh, look at it.

1320
01:19:31,960 --> 01:19:34,040
Speaker 2: We're gonna have to bust open that wall and put

1321
01:19:34,120 --> 01:19:36,800
Speaker 2: new drywall in, then mud it, and then we'll paint it.

1322
01:19:37,200 --> 01:19:42,519
Speaker 2: You do what's what's required, and that that that varies

1323
01:19:42,760 --> 01:19:45,960
Speaker 2: within the same album, sometimes not just from artists to artists,

1324
01:19:46,280 --> 01:19:49,400
Speaker 2: but for a group that some people hate Pablo Cruz

1325
01:19:49,600 --> 01:19:56,160
Speaker 2: wink wink, that that I produced, for instance, I was

1326
01:19:56,800 --> 01:20:00,960
Speaker 2: the I was much more involved in on the second

1327
01:20:01,000 --> 01:20:03,880
Speaker 2: album I did with them, which was their fourth album.

1328
01:20:04,120 --> 01:20:07,200
Speaker 2: I was much more involved in the trenches than I

1329
01:20:07,360 --> 01:20:12,240
Speaker 2: was on the previous album because the previous album, which

1330
01:20:12,320 --> 01:20:13,760
Speaker 2: was the one that had what You're Going to Do,

1331
01:20:13,800 --> 01:20:17,320
Speaker 2: that had the first big hit. They now it was

1332
01:20:17,400 --> 01:20:20,719
Speaker 2: like the fourth record was like most artists sophomore record

1333
01:20:20,720 --> 01:20:23,360
Speaker 2: if the first record hits, Now they're out on the road,

1334
01:20:24,040 --> 01:20:26,519
Speaker 2: they're doing interviews, on and on and on. They don't

1335
01:20:26,560 --> 01:20:28,640
Speaker 2: have time to write. So we did a lot of

1336
01:20:28,640 --> 01:20:33,320
Speaker 2: that writing in the studio, and so there it was.

1337
01:20:33,360 --> 01:20:35,599
Speaker 2: I was a lot more involved.

1338
01:20:35,600 --> 01:20:40,559
Speaker 1: For instance, Okay, they were in the seventies and certainly

1339
01:20:40,600 --> 01:20:44,360
Speaker 1: the sixties, there were people like Richard who were producers.

1340
01:20:45,120 --> 01:20:47,680
Speaker 1: They came from the musical creative inn and then as

1341
01:20:47,720 --> 01:20:52,880
Speaker 1: the years went by, you had more engineers that became producers,

1342
01:20:53,680 --> 01:20:57,479
Speaker 1: and you were sort of different that you straddled both camps.

1343
01:20:57,960 --> 01:21:01,719
Speaker 1: But I thought that when the engineers became a producers,

1344
01:21:01,760 --> 01:21:04,840
Speaker 1: a lot of them weren't really that creative. They could

1345
01:21:04,960 --> 01:21:08,160
Speaker 1: nael the sound, but sometimes you know, when a being

1346
01:21:08,280 --> 01:21:11,120
Speaker 1: needed more. Did you any observations.

1347
01:21:10,320 --> 01:21:16,439
Speaker 2: There, Well, you know, I don't I'm not going to

1348
01:21:16,520 --> 01:21:19,160
Speaker 2: bad mouth any particular people. But yeah, I mean some

1349
01:21:19,200 --> 01:21:23,960
Speaker 2: people are are better at whatever skills. You know, just

1350
01:21:23,960 --> 01:21:27,400
Speaker 2: because someone's a great engineer doesn't mean that he has

1351
01:21:27,479 --> 01:21:30,200
Speaker 2: the horsepower on the creative side to help an artist.

1352
01:21:31,800 --> 01:21:35,880
Speaker 2: So you definitely could see that. And the other The

1353
01:21:35,920 --> 01:21:37,680
Speaker 2: other thing is that a lot of times, you know,

1354
01:21:38,160 --> 01:21:40,360
Speaker 2: I got to tell you when Clive, when I had

1355
01:21:40,360 --> 01:21:45,759
Speaker 2: that first conversation with Clive, my nervous conversation on the phone,

1356
01:21:45,920 --> 01:21:49,000
Speaker 2: you know, he didn't even believe that engineers should produce.

1357
01:21:49,720 --> 01:21:52,160
Speaker 2: He said, look here, you know what you should do

1358
01:21:52,360 --> 01:21:54,640
Speaker 2: has come to work for me. As an engineer. You

1359
01:21:54,720 --> 01:21:58,280
Speaker 2: work with an artist like Roy Holly did with Simon

1360
01:21:58,320 --> 01:22:00,839
Speaker 2: and Garfunkel, and then when they fire or their producer,

1361
01:22:00,960 --> 01:22:04,040
Speaker 2: as they always will, you're in the driver's seat. You

1362
01:22:04,080 --> 01:22:06,920
Speaker 2: step into the driver's seat. And I literally said to him, no,

1363
01:22:06,920 --> 01:22:08,920
Speaker 2: I don't want to do that. That's not what I

1364
01:22:08,960 --> 01:22:11,360
Speaker 2: want to do. You know, if I can't make it

1365
01:22:11,400 --> 01:22:14,639
Speaker 2: on my own, then I don't make it, period. And

1366
01:22:15,360 --> 01:22:17,559
Speaker 2: what can I say? It's funny, I haven't thought of

1367
01:22:17,600 --> 01:22:21,519
Speaker 2: that until just now in a long long time that

1368
01:22:21,640 --> 01:22:23,200
Speaker 2: I stood up to him kind of in a way,

1369
01:22:23,400 --> 01:22:25,720
Speaker 2: and he went with me anyway.

1370
01:22:26,280 --> 01:22:30,120
Speaker 1: So you work with Richard on Barbara Streisian. What do

1371
01:22:30,160 --> 01:22:30,760
Speaker 1: you do after that?

1372
01:22:32,720 --> 01:22:36,960
Speaker 2: Well, we talked about no secrets, I.

1373
01:22:37,040 --> 01:22:40,360
Speaker 1: Well, no secrets for Electra. So at what point do

1374
01:22:40,479 --> 01:22:44,760
Speaker 1: you stop working for CBS.

1375
01:22:45,520 --> 01:22:50,639
Speaker 2: When Clive closed the studio, plain and simple, I think,

1376
01:22:51,720 --> 01:22:57,000
Speaker 2: which was yeah, which was actually very good timing because

1377
01:22:57,960 --> 01:23:01,320
Speaker 2: you know, Richard had done the first Harry Nielsen album,

1378
01:23:01,439 --> 01:23:05,000
Speaker 2: Nielsen Schmielsen in England, and Harry was good friends with

1379
01:23:05,160 --> 01:23:09,679
Speaker 2: Ringo and he introduced the two of them and they

1380
01:23:09,720 --> 01:23:14,439
Speaker 2: talked then about doing an album someday. And so when

1381
01:23:15,840 --> 01:23:19,120
Speaker 2: you know, Clive has closed the studio and I'm working

1382
01:23:19,120 --> 01:23:23,280
Speaker 2: independently and whatnot, and then Richard calls me one day

1383
01:23:23,280 --> 01:23:25,280
Speaker 2: and says, I'm going to do an album with Ringo

1384
01:23:25,479 --> 01:23:26,840
Speaker 2: and I want you to do it with me the

1385
01:23:26,840 --> 01:23:32,040
Speaker 2: whole way. And I said, wow, well that sounds like fun,

1386
01:23:32,640 --> 01:23:34,559
Speaker 2: and indeed it certainly was.

1387
01:23:35,160 --> 01:23:38,800
Speaker 1: Okay. Everybody has their heyday where you don't have enough

1388
01:23:38,840 --> 01:23:42,000
Speaker 1: time to do all the work that you would like

1389
01:23:42,120 --> 01:23:47,000
Speaker 1: to do. But at what point do you start you know,

1390
01:23:47,280 --> 01:23:49,840
Speaker 1: you just wait for the phone to ring or do

1391
01:23:49,920 --> 01:23:53,080
Speaker 1: you start working in in order to get jobs?

1392
01:23:54,720 --> 01:23:59,040
Speaker 2: No back and Clive one of the things after he

1393
01:23:59,120 --> 01:24:03,160
Speaker 2: hired me. One of the things he said a lot

1394
01:24:03,160 --> 01:24:05,559
Speaker 2: of I've got a lot of different pieces of wisdom

1395
01:24:05,560 --> 01:24:08,439
Speaker 2: from him, and it's something I'd never thought about. But

1396
01:24:08,479 --> 01:24:10,439
Speaker 2: he said, Bill, this is a business of what have

1397
01:24:10,520 --> 01:24:14,479
Speaker 2: you done lately? The credits mean everything. And that went

1398
01:24:14,560 --> 01:24:17,280
Speaker 2: with what Richie Peddler had told me, you know, a

1399
01:24:17,360 --> 01:24:19,920
Speaker 2: year and a half or something before that, when he

1400
01:24:19,960 --> 01:24:23,320
Speaker 2: said basically the same thing. He said, the credits are

1401
01:24:23,360 --> 01:24:26,719
Speaker 2: more important than the money you make on a project,

1402
01:24:26,960 --> 01:24:29,160
Speaker 2: the money you're going to spend and it'll be gone,

1403
01:24:29,479 --> 01:24:32,520
Speaker 2: the credit you're going to live with. And Clive modified

1404
01:24:32,560 --> 01:24:37,160
Speaker 2: it to say what have you done lately? And so

1405
01:24:37,280 --> 01:24:41,040
Speaker 2: that was it. It was just, you know, the record

1406
01:24:41,040 --> 01:24:46,920
Speaker 2: companies have the golden goose philosophy, and if this guy

1407
01:24:47,000 --> 01:24:50,559
Speaker 2: laid golden eggs with this artist, bring him over. Let's

1408
01:24:50,560 --> 01:24:52,880
Speaker 2: get him here and have him lay some eggs for us.

1409
01:24:53,200 --> 01:24:56,600
Speaker 2: And that goes. It goes for producers, of course, and

1410
01:24:56,720 --> 01:24:59,479
Speaker 2: to a less lesser degree, maybe not from the record company,

1411
01:24:59,479 --> 01:25:04,480
Speaker 2: more from the other producers that making the same observation

1412
01:25:04,920 --> 01:25:14,479
Speaker 2: and hiring of an engineer, well.

1413
01:25:14,360 --> 01:25:18,200
Speaker 1: You've been doing it for sixty years, so is it

1414
01:25:18,240 --> 01:25:20,639
Speaker 1: the type of thing where the work has always come

1415
01:25:20,680 --> 01:25:23,640
Speaker 1: to you, or if you had to flush that it

1416
01:25:23,680 --> 01:25:25,400
Speaker 1: has you haven't had to say, well, you know, I

1417
01:25:25,439 --> 01:25:29,240
Speaker 1: better network, or I better you know, make relationships, or

1418
01:25:29,280 --> 01:25:31,559
Speaker 1: I may call people. What do you got going? It's

1419
01:25:31,600 --> 01:25:32,719
Speaker 1: always come to you.

1420
01:25:32,720 --> 01:25:36,080
Speaker 2: No, it's always come to me. And I made a

1421
01:25:36,080 --> 01:25:39,000
Speaker 2: big mistake. Well I don't know how big it was,

1422
01:25:39,080 --> 01:25:46,440
Speaker 2: but it was when the era of managers for producers

1423
01:25:46,479 --> 01:25:52,839
Speaker 2: and engineers started. I remember having a meeting with Michael Austin,

1424
01:25:53,080 --> 01:25:57,200
Speaker 2: Mo Austin's son at Warner Ruthers, who was the head

1425
01:25:57,200 --> 01:26:00,400
Speaker 2: of A and R at that point, about an artist

1426
01:26:00,560 --> 01:26:04,080
Speaker 2: something for me to produce, and he said, you know what,

1427
01:26:04,720 --> 01:26:06,599
Speaker 2: I don't have anything right now. But you know, Bill,

1428
01:26:06,640 --> 01:26:11,200
Speaker 2: I don't even I don't even pick producers anymore. I call,

1429
01:26:11,720 --> 01:26:14,880
Speaker 2: you know, there were five or four or five at

1430
01:26:14,880 --> 01:26:20,559
Speaker 2: that point managers of producers. I call one of them

1431
01:26:20,600 --> 01:26:22,439
Speaker 2: and I say, I've got this artist, who do you

1432
01:26:22,439 --> 01:26:25,200
Speaker 2: think would be good for it? They do my job

1433
01:26:25,280 --> 01:26:28,639
Speaker 2: for me. And I met with a couple of them,

1434
01:26:28,680 --> 01:26:31,800
Speaker 2: and I always thought, you know, if I want someone

1435
01:26:31,840 --> 01:26:36,519
Speaker 2: to quote represent me, I wanted them to, you know,

1436
01:26:36,640 --> 01:26:39,200
Speaker 2: to represent me. And I didn't like the people. You know,

1437
01:26:39,479 --> 01:26:42,559
Speaker 2: I just didn't hit the right ones, I guess or whatever.

1438
01:26:44,040 --> 01:26:45,960
Speaker 1: Well, do you feel you missed out on any work

1439
01:26:45,960 --> 01:26:46,599
Speaker 1: as a result?

1440
01:26:46,600 --> 01:26:53,000
Speaker 2: Thereof absolutely, without question. Like I said at the point

1441
01:26:53,000 --> 01:26:55,479
Speaker 2: that you know Michael Austin, I'm sure it wasn't the

1442
01:26:55,479 --> 01:26:58,439
Speaker 2: only one and I made out of I don't remember

1443
01:26:58,439 --> 01:26:59,880
Speaker 2: if I had met with any of them. That may

1444
01:26:59,880 --> 01:27:02,120
Speaker 2: have been. That meeting with Michael may have been the

1445
01:27:02,240 --> 01:27:04,400
Speaker 2: exact reason I went out and met with a couple,

1446
01:27:05,479 --> 01:27:08,400
Speaker 2: but I'm pretty sure that they could. They could have

1447
01:27:08,439 --> 01:27:10,439
Speaker 2: done it, They could have got me work.

1448
01:27:11,560 --> 01:27:14,240
Speaker 1: But it sounds like you had enough work anyway, or

1449
01:27:14,320 --> 01:27:16,880
Speaker 1: is that untrue?

1450
01:27:17,200 --> 01:27:23,280
Speaker 2: Well, you know, I think I think the the heyday

1451
01:27:23,439 --> 01:27:28,040
Speaker 2: shall we call it, could have lasted longer, that's all.

1452
01:27:28,560 --> 01:27:32,080
Speaker 2: But I'm not complaining in any way, shape or form.

1453
01:27:32,120 --> 01:27:35,519
Speaker 2: I've had a very rich career, that's for darn shore

1454
01:27:36,720 --> 01:27:39,040
Speaker 2: and still do. I mean, you know, I'm fortunate that

1455
01:27:39,120 --> 01:27:42,680
Speaker 2: I'm seventy eight years old, healthy as I can possibly be.

1456
01:27:42,920 --> 01:27:45,280
Speaker 2: That's what the doctors just told me two weeks ago,

1457
01:27:45,720 --> 01:27:48,200
Speaker 2: and had The main thing is which a lot of

1458
01:27:48,360 --> 01:27:51,120
Speaker 2: my guys, peers my age don't have. I have all

1459
01:27:51,200 --> 01:27:54,360
Speaker 2: the energy and passion for music that I had in

1460
01:27:54,439 --> 01:27:57,960
Speaker 2: nineteen sixty four when we got signed to Decker Records.

1461
01:27:58,280 --> 01:28:01,200
Speaker 2: I still there's nothing I'd rather do then, you know,

1462
01:28:01,240 --> 01:28:04,240
Speaker 2: I noticed something early on in the business about all

1463
01:28:04,240 --> 01:28:08,160
Speaker 2: the musicians getting divorces and going on a second marriage.

1464
01:28:08,680 --> 01:28:12,599
Speaker 2: And I have I wondered if you know, musicians are

1465
01:28:12,640 --> 01:28:16,040
Speaker 2: a weird lot and creatives in general, I guess, but

1466
01:28:16,680 --> 01:28:21,640
Speaker 2: they you know, it's they're very passionate, you know. We

1467
01:28:21,840 --> 01:28:24,639
Speaker 2: I'll put myself in there, We are very passionate about

1468
01:28:24,640 --> 01:28:28,759
Speaker 2: what we do. And that to a woman that, for instance,

1469
01:28:29,120 --> 01:28:31,559
Speaker 2: grew up with a dad that wore a suit and tie,

1470
01:28:31,920 --> 01:28:36,040
Speaker 2: was home at five o'clock every day eating dinner, that

1471
01:28:36,160 --> 01:28:39,519
Speaker 2: doesn't always flush well with the guy that will stay

1472
01:28:39,520 --> 01:28:42,280
Speaker 2: after work for two hours hanging with his buddy's jamming

1473
01:28:42,479 --> 01:28:46,680
Speaker 2: or whatever. And I know I saw that in the

1474
01:28:46,760 --> 01:28:51,320
Speaker 2: divorces of a couple of people, for sure. And it's

1475
01:28:51,320 --> 01:28:55,040
Speaker 2: funny and funny enough. My wife of forty years now,

1476
01:28:56,320 --> 01:29:00,559
Speaker 2: my first wife who divorced me, was a musician, so

1477
01:29:00,640 --> 01:29:03,160
Speaker 2: I had nothing to do with that. But my current

1478
01:29:03,200 --> 01:29:08,000
Speaker 2: wife has had a father that was an oil executive

1479
01:29:08,000 --> 01:29:09,880
Speaker 2: who was home every day at five o'clock at mowing

1480
01:29:09,880 --> 01:29:13,920
Speaker 2: the lawn on the weekends, but she sawned up. I

1481
01:29:13,960 --> 01:29:16,200
Speaker 2: insisted we had a long engagement. She was in law

1482
01:29:16,200 --> 01:29:19,600
Speaker 2: school in Waco. She was at Baylor Law when I

1483
01:29:19,640 --> 01:29:22,599
Speaker 2: met her, and I insisted she do her last year

1484
01:29:23,080 --> 01:29:25,559
Speaker 2: in la so that she could for a year she

1485
01:29:25,600 --> 01:29:29,880
Speaker 2: could see the crazy people, the crazy schedule, everything that

1486
01:29:30,000 --> 01:29:33,120
Speaker 2: was there. And funny enough, she did her last year

1487
01:29:33,160 --> 01:29:36,920
Speaker 2: at Loyola where I did my one semester, and I

1488
01:29:37,000 --> 01:29:39,280
Speaker 2: went back and sat in the same classrooms a couple

1489
01:29:39,320 --> 01:29:40,920
Speaker 2: of times to watch a session.

1490
01:29:43,000 --> 01:29:47,080
Speaker 1: So when you would say, hey, I got to work

1491
01:29:47,120 --> 01:29:49,559
Speaker 1: for the weekend, what would your wife say?

1492
01:29:51,439 --> 01:29:54,040
Speaker 2: Well, first of all, I did my best to make

1493
01:29:54,439 --> 01:29:58,600
Speaker 2: the family a priority, so I would do my best.

1494
01:29:58,840 --> 01:30:02,400
Speaker 2: You know, the the initial the knee jerk is no.

1495
01:30:04,000 --> 01:30:06,439
Speaker 2: But if it was something that I really thought that

1496
01:30:06,520 --> 01:30:11,760
Speaker 2: I had to she was very understanding and accommodating, and

1497
01:30:12,439 --> 01:30:14,600
Speaker 2: so if the relationship worked beautifully.

1498
01:30:15,400 --> 01:30:19,280
Speaker 1: So the first wife who was a musician, was it

1499
01:30:19,439 --> 01:30:23,280
Speaker 1: the music business and the music business lifestyle they caused

1500
01:30:23,280 --> 01:30:27,320
Speaker 1: the divorce or just like everything, it doesn't necessarily work out.

1501
01:30:28,840 --> 01:30:31,920
Speaker 2: The latter, for sure had nothing to do with the business.

1502
01:30:32,520 --> 01:30:35,519
Speaker 2: She loved the business. In fact, The odd thing was

1503
01:30:36,840 --> 01:30:38,880
Speaker 2: she said she was divorcing me because she was tired

1504
01:30:38,920 --> 01:30:42,160
Speaker 2: of being missus Bill Schnee. And then as soon as

1505
01:30:42,160 --> 01:30:44,639
Speaker 2: we were divorced, she went out and tried to get

1506
01:30:44,640 --> 01:30:48,760
Speaker 2: work as a producer with the last name Schnee. So

1507
01:30:48,880 --> 01:30:51,000
Speaker 2: go figure. I don't know what to say. No, it

1508
01:30:51,040 --> 01:30:52,360
Speaker 2: had nothing to do with the business.

1509
01:30:52,960 --> 01:30:57,000
Speaker 1: Okay, so you work with Richard Barber Skreis in Ringo

1510
01:30:57,360 --> 01:31:02,719
Speaker 1: no secrets. How did things other than Richard projects come about?

1511
01:31:05,320 --> 01:31:08,880
Speaker 2: Just what you were talking about earlier? You know, someone

1512
01:31:08,920 --> 01:31:12,680
Speaker 2: calls me to mix a record. In fact, here's a

1513
01:31:12,760 --> 01:31:17,560
Speaker 2: funny story. Early on. I'm gonna say, I have to

1514
01:31:17,600 --> 01:31:20,680
Speaker 2: look up Touch Me in the Morning, whatever you that was.

1515
01:31:21,200 --> 01:31:26,280
Speaker 2: I'm mixing in a studio seventy something, and the girl

1516
01:31:26,320 --> 01:31:28,760
Speaker 2: buzzes in and says, there's a phone call for you

1517
01:31:28,800 --> 01:31:31,400
Speaker 2: online one. I pick it up and goes, hi, Bill,

1518
01:31:31,680 --> 01:31:33,800
Speaker 2: this is Michael Master. You may know me if my

1519
01:31:33,960 --> 01:31:35,960
Speaker 2: Touch Me in the Morning by Diana Ross that I

1520
01:31:36,000 --> 01:31:40,759
Speaker 2: wrote and produced, And I hung up the phone and

1521
01:31:42,160 --> 01:31:44,559
Speaker 2: that I was a little wild in my early days,

1522
01:31:44,720 --> 01:31:46,639
Speaker 2: and I just thought, if that's the way the guy

1523
01:31:46,680 --> 01:31:49,280
Speaker 2: introduced it, if that's for real, I don't know that

1524
01:31:49,320 --> 01:31:51,439
Speaker 2: I want to have anything to do with him. But whatever.

1525
01:31:52,320 --> 01:31:54,680
Speaker 2: So the girl buzzes in and says, evidently you got

1526
01:31:54,720 --> 01:31:56,920
Speaker 2: cut off, and I said, just take a message, and

1527
01:31:56,960 --> 01:32:01,720
Speaker 2: I never called him back. Now, my wife, Sally is

1528
01:32:01,800 --> 01:32:06,559
Speaker 2: doing law school at Loyola, finishing her last year at Loyola,

1529
01:32:07,040 --> 01:32:09,679
Speaker 2: and I'm in my studio and I get a call

1530
01:32:09,720 --> 01:32:13,559
Speaker 2: from Michael Master to mix some songs that he's recorded

1531
01:32:13,600 --> 01:32:16,680
Speaker 2: on Peeble Bryson. And he didn't give me the same introduction,

1532
01:32:16,800 --> 01:32:22,080
Speaker 2: which was a good thing, and so I'm mixing, as

1533
01:32:22,080 --> 01:32:25,160
Speaker 2: it turns out, the big hit if ever, you're in

1534
01:32:25,240 --> 01:32:29,080
Speaker 2: my arms again, and Michael was. He's no longer with us,

1535
01:32:29,120 --> 01:32:31,280
Speaker 2: but he was, by the way. I don't know if

1536
01:32:31,320 --> 01:32:33,719
Speaker 2: you know that name, but he was a Chicago lawyer

1537
01:32:34,000 --> 01:32:37,000
Speaker 2: that sat up in his high rise dreaming of making

1538
01:32:37,080 --> 01:32:40,360
Speaker 2: music and he realized that dream and did quite well

1539
01:32:42,680 --> 01:32:46,519
Speaker 2: and as a songwriter and producer. So anyway, we're mixing

1540
01:32:46,560 --> 01:32:49,800
Speaker 2: the song and Sally would between classes. There was like

1541
01:32:49,840 --> 01:32:55,400
Speaker 2: a three hour break. Loyola wasn't that far downtown LA

1542
01:32:55,880 --> 01:32:58,280
Speaker 2: from my studio, so she would come to the studio

1543
01:32:58,360 --> 01:33:01,720
Speaker 2: and read or take an apple whatever. So she was

1544
01:33:01,760 --> 01:33:04,559
Speaker 2: going back to class and they had met. I had

1545
01:33:04,600 --> 01:33:07,639
Speaker 2: introduced them, and she's walking through the studio and Michael says,

1546
01:33:08,160 --> 01:33:09,680
Speaker 2: bring her in, bring her in. So I hit the

1547
01:33:09,720 --> 01:33:11,439
Speaker 2: talk back and said, can you come in a second.

1548
01:33:11,479 --> 01:33:13,800
Speaker 2: Sally came in. He said, let her sit in your chair.

1549
01:33:14,000 --> 01:33:17,880
Speaker 2: So she sits in my chair and he said, I

1550
01:33:17,920 --> 01:33:21,719
Speaker 2: want to play her the single, you know, average person

1551
01:33:21,840 --> 01:33:24,920
Speaker 2: kind of thing. So he sits. She sits in the

1552
01:33:25,000 --> 01:33:27,719
Speaker 2: chair and he's right next to her, and he looks

1553
01:33:27,760 --> 01:33:30,040
Speaker 2: at her and I say this by she had to

1554
01:33:30,080 --> 01:33:32,519
Speaker 2: meet some of the interesting people that we find in

1555
01:33:32,560 --> 01:33:35,320
Speaker 2: the record business. And he turns to her and says,

1556
01:33:35,960 --> 01:33:43,160
Speaker 2: let's actualize our peak experiences. Shall we wait a minute.

1557
01:33:43,160 --> 01:33:45,760
Speaker 2: I'm engaged to this woman, you leave your peak experiences.

1558
01:33:45,880 --> 01:33:49,479
Speaker 2: So I pushed play and then he's sitting there and

1559
01:33:49,520 --> 01:33:53,040
Speaker 2: she's looking straight ahead and he's right in, you know,

1560
01:33:53,680 --> 01:33:56,760
Speaker 2: a foot from her, a foot from her left ear,

1561
01:33:57,439 --> 01:34:00,280
Speaker 2: looking at her eyes and mimicking the words. And when

1562
01:34:00,320 --> 01:34:02,040
Speaker 2: it got to the chorus, you know, the high point,

1563
01:34:02,040 --> 01:34:04,840
Speaker 2: he's pointing his finger and raising his shoulders and you know,

1564
01:34:05,000 --> 01:34:08,439
Speaker 2: just going, you know, all the emotion you could ever

1565
01:34:08,520 --> 01:34:12,639
Speaker 2: ask for. And I'm sure he was very disappointed when

1566
01:34:12,680 --> 01:34:15,920
Speaker 2: she was done. She was scared spitless. She'd never seen

1567
01:34:15,960 --> 01:34:18,760
Speaker 2: anything like that, and quite frankly, I don't think I

1568
01:34:18,800 --> 01:34:19,240
Speaker 2: had either.

1569
01:34:20,280 --> 01:34:24,160
Speaker 1: But whatever, So, how'd you end up working with Steely Dan?

1570
01:34:26,720 --> 01:34:31,400
Speaker 2: Very good question, and the answer is something that funny

1571
01:34:31,520 --> 01:34:35,160
Speaker 2: enough I just found out. So Gary Katz, the producer

1572
01:34:35,160 --> 01:34:37,880
Speaker 2: of Steely Dan, calls me one day and says, would

1573
01:34:37,880 --> 01:34:40,519
Speaker 2: you like to record the next Steely Dan album? And

1574
01:34:41,040 --> 01:34:43,080
Speaker 2: I said, let me think about it. Yes, actually I

1575
01:34:43,160 --> 01:34:46,840
Speaker 2: think that sounds like fun. And I got off the

1576
01:34:46,840 --> 01:34:48,880
Speaker 2: phone and I went wait a minute, because a couple

1577
01:34:48,880 --> 01:34:51,840
Speaker 2: of my friends, Michael Omarty and Steve Jeff Paccaro, had

1578
01:34:51,880 --> 01:34:54,920
Speaker 2: played on the previous albums, and it told me about

1579
01:34:54,960 --> 01:34:58,240
Speaker 2: their maniacal ways in the studio, and as I said earlier,

1580
01:34:58,320 --> 01:35:01,679
Speaker 2: that's not my jam to go quick and move fast

1581
01:35:01,720 --> 01:35:05,400
Speaker 2: and keep things going. And so I was a little

1582
01:35:05,479 --> 01:35:08,519
Speaker 2: nervous about it. But what was interesting at the time,

1583
01:35:08,680 --> 01:35:11,240
Speaker 2: they never asked me. They just said tell us where

1584
01:35:11,240 --> 01:35:15,760
Speaker 2: to go. So I picked a studio that was originally

1585
01:35:15,800 --> 01:35:19,360
Speaker 2: Mike Kurbs that I went in for my one time

1586
01:35:19,400 --> 01:35:22,760
Speaker 2: trying to produce the La Teens, which had been now

1587
01:35:22,800 --> 01:35:29,479
Speaker 2: bought by another group, and was a very good studio,

1588
01:35:29,720 --> 01:35:37,479
Speaker 2: excellent studio called Producers Workshop, and I just said, Okay,

1589
01:35:37,520 --> 01:35:40,439
Speaker 2: there's a studio in Hollywood Boulevard that I really like

1590
01:35:40,520 --> 01:35:42,760
Speaker 2: working in. And as far as I know, they never

1591
01:35:42,800 --> 01:35:46,000
Speaker 2: went to visit it or anything. So they just showed it.

1592
01:35:46,400 --> 01:35:49,080
Speaker 2: They showed up, and we did it. We did what

1593
01:35:49,160 --> 01:35:52,400
Speaker 2: we did, and as it turns out, that album was

1594
01:35:52,439 --> 01:35:56,639
Speaker 2: different than every album before or after in that they

1595
01:35:56,640 --> 01:36:01,240
Speaker 2: did it with entirely studio musicians. I'd used studio musicians

1596
01:36:01,240 --> 01:36:04,360
Speaker 2: obviously on the previous album or two in with them,

1597
01:36:04,400 --> 01:36:12,040
Speaker 2: but this was all studio musicians, like Union sessions one o'clock,

1598
01:36:13,160 --> 01:36:19,400
Speaker 2: one to four and six to nine and all Union players.

1599
01:36:19,800 --> 01:36:23,599
Speaker 2: Larry Carlton, the great guitar player, had done takedown sheets.

1600
01:36:24,240 --> 01:36:28,920
Speaker 2: The guys had always done a piano bassed demo and

1601
01:36:28,960 --> 01:36:30,840
Speaker 2: they would send that to Larry, who would do a

1602
01:36:30,960 --> 01:36:34,280
Speaker 2: takedown sheet so of the chords and where things went.

1603
01:36:34,400 --> 01:36:37,519
Speaker 2: So the band would hear their demo and go from there,

1604
01:36:38,400 --> 01:36:41,479
Speaker 2: and they were just there was a no drug zone.

1605
01:36:41,520 --> 01:36:43,720
Speaker 2: I think that might have been unique, and at least

1606
01:36:43,760 --> 01:36:48,400
Speaker 2: for the tracking, which is all I did, and it

1607
01:36:48,439 --> 01:36:51,439
Speaker 2: couldn't have gone smoother or better or easier. So I

1608
01:36:51,520 --> 01:36:55,120
Speaker 2: was completely wrong about all that, but I always wondered

1609
01:36:56,160 --> 01:37:00,800
Speaker 2: why they hired me. And so that was for the

1610
01:37:00,840 --> 01:37:04,360
Speaker 2: album Asia. So a year and a half ago, I

1611
01:37:04,400 --> 01:37:08,400
Speaker 2: guess been almost two years ago now. A company called

1612
01:37:08,400 --> 01:37:12,559
Speaker 2: Acoustic Sounds that basically licenses albums puts them on LPs.

1613
01:37:13,640 --> 01:37:18,280
Speaker 2: Redid that for Asia at forty five rpm, which takes

1614
01:37:18,320 --> 01:37:22,560
Speaker 2: two discs instead of one y for forty five rpm. A,

1615
01:37:22,720 --> 01:37:26,040
Speaker 2: it sounds better and B when you're on a on

1616
01:37:26,120 --> 01:37:29,320
Speaker 2: an LP, when you the closer you get to the label,

1617
01:37:29,520 --> 01:37:32,360
Speaker 2: there's a kind of distortion that comes in. It's almost

1618
01:37:32,400 --> 01:37:36,519
Speaker 2: completely unavoidable. So this way stays out farther. So they

1619
01:37:36,520 --> 01:37:40,680
Speaker 2: do did it at forty five rpm. And and in

1620
01:37:40,720 --> 01:37:44,080
Speaker 2: anticipation of that, the owner of the company Acoustic Sounds,

1621
01:37:44,120 --> 01:37:46,360
Speaker 2: called and said, I want to do a zoom interview

1622
01:37:46,840 --> 01:37:52,000
Speaker 2: with you and Donald and Bernie Grunman who mastered the

1623
01:37:52,040 --> 01:37:55,320
Speaker 2: original in the seventies and mastered this forty five version.

1624
01:37:55,680 --> 01:37:58,920
Speaker 2: And I said great. So I did the zoom and

1625
01:37:59,000 --> 01:38:02,639
Speaker 2: when there was a lull, I said, Donald, there's something

1626
01:38:02,680 --> 01:38:05,479
Speaker 2: I've always wanted to ask you. Why did you guys

1627
01:38:05,560 --> 01:38:09,559
Speaker 2: hire me to do that record? And he said something like, well,

1628
01:38:09,640 --> 01:38:11,920
Speaker 2: we'd heard that you were this guy that got some

1629
01:38:12,000 --> 01:38:15,800
Speaker 2: incredible hi fi albums that just sounded incredible, and that's

1630
01:38:15,840 --> 01:38:18,479
Speaker 2: what we wanted to do. And I knew right away

1631
01:38:18,520 --> 01:38:24,960
Speaker 2: what it was a little history there, the direct to disc.

1632
01:38:25,160 --> 01:38:27,000
Speaker 2: I don't know how many people are familiar with that,

1633
01:38:27,120 --> 01:38:30,439
Speaker 2: are you by any chance? Yes? Familiar with director is? Yeah?

1634
01:38:30,520 --> 01:38:34,320
Speaker 2: So directed disc is where you recorded one side of

1635
01:38:34,360 --> 01:38:38,880
Speaker 2: an album. As the title says, direct to disc, the

1636
01:38:38,960 --> 01:38:41,760
Speaker 2: disc that is that they make on the lays that

1637
01:38:41,800 --> 01:38:45,960
Speaker 2: they make the LPs eventually out of. So what you

1638
01:38:46,080 --> 01:38:49,920
Speaker 2: don't do is you don't go to analog tape twice,

1639
01:38:50,479 --> 01:38:52,800
Speaker 2: first time in the multi track, second time on the

1640
01:38:52,800 --> 01:38:55,400
Speaker 2: two track. You only go through the electronics of a

1641
01:38:55,439 --> 01:38:59,360
Speaker 2: console once and by saving all of that, the sound

1642
01:38:59,479 --> 01:39:04,400
Speaker 2: quality is superb. It's very you know, almost identical to

1643
01:39:04,439 --> 01:39:07,040
Speaker 2: what's quote coming through the glass. It's a lot of

1644
01:39:07,120 --> 01:39:13,200
Speaker 2: pressure obviously because you're you're recording everything from start to finish,

1645
01:39:13,280 --> 01:39:15,720
Speaker 2: and when you when you were mixing from tape or

1646
01:39:15,760 --> 01:39:19,360
Speaker 2: these days from a computer, when you pull up the piano,

1647
01:39:19,439 --> 01:39:22,240
Speaker 2: it's the exact same piano part, the exact same dynamics.

1648
01:39:22,439 --> 01:39:25,759
Speaker 2: You know, everything is identical. It's locked in for life.

1649
01:39:26,040 --> 01:39:29,240
Speaker 2: When you're doing this. You know, you do one side

1650
01:39:29,240 --> 01:39:31,760
Speaker 2: of an album, takes fifteen minutes. Something from one side

1651
01:39:31,760 --> 01:39:34,559
Speaker 2: of the album, you take a twenty minute break, you

1652
01:39:34,560 --> 01:39:37,240
Speaker 2: do it again. You think they play identically to what

1653
01:39:37,280 --> 01:39:40,559
Speaker 2: they did before. No, you're mixing every time from get go,

1654
01:39:41,120 --> 01:39:44,160
Speaker 2: and sometimes it you know it. The opening cuts are

1655
01:39:44,200 --> 01:39:48,439
Speaker 2: the most dangerous in that regard, But you're the point

1656
01:39:48,479 --> 01:39:51,640
Speaker 2: being is that you're constantly mixing and there's no relaxing

1657
01:39:51,720 --> 01:39:56,720
Speaker 2: for a second, and if somebody makes a mistake, you

1658
01:39:56,720 --> 01:39:59,240
Speaker 2: know you're in You're in trouble. At the last song,

1659
01:39:59,360 --> 01:40:01,559
Speaker 2: you're in trouble because there's no editing of any kind.

1660
01:40:01,840 --> 01:40:04,720
Speaker 2: It's a lathe that cuts into a lacquer master a

1661
01:40:04,800 --> 01:40:08,040
Speaker 2: laquer disc, and so there's no stopping. So I had

1662
01:40:08,080 --> 01:40:11,200
Speaker 2: engineered Doug Sachs and his partner Lincoln my orga of

1663
01:40:11,240 --> 01:40:13,759
Speaker 2: it had the mastering lab that was directly in front

1664
01:40:13,800 --> 01:40:18,000
Speaker 2: of this studio. Had done a couple of records of

1665
01:40:18,080 --> 01:40:22,559
Speaker 2: Lincoln's music directed disc specifically for that reason because they

1666
01:40:22,600 --> 01:40:27,360
Speaker 2: sound so much better. And after the I engineered one,

1667
01:40:27,640 --> 01:40:29,880
Speaker 2: and after I engineered it, that was the most fun

1668
01:40:29,920 --> 01:40:34,320
Speaker 2: I'd ever had because theretofore you spent you know, two

1669
01:40:34,479 --> 01:40:38,599
Speaker 2: three whatever months six and the Ringo album six solid

1670
01:40:38,640 --> 01:40:41,720
Speaker 2: months of working on an album and then mixing and

1671
01:40:42,160 --> 01:40:46,439
Speaker 2: then mastering. Here in three days we had an album recorded, mixed,

1672
01:40:46,479 --> 01:40:49,280
Speaker 2: and mastered. And so when I went back to normal recording,

1673
01:40:49,320 --> 01:40:53,120
Speaker 2: it was like slow slow motion. So I went to

1674
01:40:53,160 --> 01:40:55,360
Speaker 2: Doug and asked, I really want to produce an album,

1675
01:40:55,439 --> 01:40:59,200
Speaker 2: and I wanted to I want to use a vocalist

1676
01:40:59,600 --> 01:41:02,200
Speaker 2: and main thing also I wanted to do contemporary, more

1677
01:41:02,240 --> 01:41:05,720
Speaker 2: contemporary music than what Lincoln did. And so it took

1678
01:41:05,760 --> 01:41:08,000
Speaker 2: me about a week or so to convince Doug to

1679
01:41:08,080 --> 01:41:10,680
Speaker 2: let me do it. It took him two months to convince Lincoln.

1680
01:41:10,880 --> 01:41:13,559
Speaker 2: Lincoln wasn't going for it. This is not our record label,

1681
01:41:13,600 --> 01:41:15,639
Speaker 2: and if we were going to hire someone, why would

1682
01:41:15,680 --> 01:41:17,200
Speaker 2: it be a kid? And are you sure he can

1683
01:41:17,240 --> 01:41:19,360
Speaker 2: do it? And on and on. I jumped through so

1684
01:41:19,479 --> 01:41:22,439
Speaker 2: many hoops, but we got it done. Funny part of

1685
01:41:22,479 --> 01:41:24,240
Speaker 2: that is that at that point in time, I'd only

1686
01:41:24,240 --> 01:41:26,200
Speaker 2: worked with two artists that I knew could step up

1687
01:41:26,240 --> 01:41:28,360
Speaker 2: to the mic on the last song and give a

1688
01:41:28,400 --> 01:41:32,439
Speaker 2: real performance. The first one was Barbara Streisan, who at

1689
01:41:32,439 --> 01:41:36,160
Speaker 2: that point I had done her three previous albums and

1690
01:41:36,400 --> 01:41:40,519
Speaker 2: I called her manager and got very close to this

1691
01:41:40,960 --> 01:41:43,880
Speaker 2: go away kid, you're bothering me. He had no time

1692
01:41:43,920 --> 01:41:46,880
Speaker 2: for it, and the only other person that I had

1693
01:41:47,000 --> 01:41:50,439
Speaker 2: just worked with. I recorded a couple of songs and

1694
01:41:50,800 --> 01:41:55,439
Speaker 2: mixed a new artist on Motown named Thelma Houston, who

1695
01:41:55,520 --> 01:41:58,040
Speaker 2: had a gorgeous sounding voice and sang like a bird,

1696
01:41:58,640 --> 01:42:00,880
Speaker 2: and so I talked to her about it. She loved

1697
01:42:00,880 --> 01:42:02,600
Speaker 2: the idea, and I went to Motown and got a

1698
01:42:02,600 --> 01:42:06,840
Speaker 2: loan out agreement, and that's what we did, and we did.

1699
01:42:07,320 --> 01:42:10,080
Speaker 2: I got the best band. When I look at the

1700
01:42:10,120 --> 01:42:13,639
Speaker 2: credits today, it's just it's astounding. That was. You couldn't

1701
01:42:13,640 --> 01:42:16,240
Speaker 2: get a better band if you tried in nineteen seventy

1702
01:42:16,280 --> 01:42:21,760
Speaker 2: five and did that record and it, yes, it was

1703
01:42:21,800 --> 01:42:25,320
Speaker 2: nominated for Best Engineered Album, and yes it was. You know,

1704
01:42:25,360 --> 01:42:27,840
Speaker 2: within a year, it was an every high fi store

1705
01:42:27,920 --> 01:42:30,920
Speaker 2: in the country. Because the weak link in an audio

1706
01:42:31,120 --> 01:42:33,600
Speaker 2: chain is the source. So if you give them a

1707
01:42:33,640 --> 01:42:37,439
Speaker 2: better sounding source, their amplifiers sound better, their speakers sound better,

1708
01:42:37,520 --> 01:42:40,680
Speaker 2: they just go better. So it was an every high

1709
01:42:40,720 --> 01:42:46,960
Speaker 2: fi store and it did incredibly well. Well. That's undoubtedly

1710
01:42:47,600 --> 01:42:50,720
Speaker 2: what Donald was making reference to when he said we'd

1711
01:42:50,760 --> 01:42:53,599
Speaker 2: heard about these records that you had done. I had

1712
01:42:53,600 --> 01:42:56,080
Speaker 2: engineered the previous one that Doug did, and now I

1713
01:42:56,240 --> 01:43:01,120
Speaker 2: produced and engineered that one. And what's what's really cool

1714
01:43:03,080 --> 01:43:07,439
Speaker 2: is that a I found out about why they hired

1715
01:43:07,479 --> 01:43:12,519
Speaker 2: me on that. And then this year in April, the

1716
01:43:12,960 --> 01:43:16,519
Speaker 2: film of Houston and Pressure Cooker album was entered into

1717
01:43:16,560 --> 01:43:20,760
Speaker 2: the National Recording Registry Library by the Library of Congress.

1718
01:43:21,680 --> 01:43:24,920
Speaker 2: Only six six hundred and thirty five records that are

1719
01:43:24,920 --> 01:43:27,600
Speaker 2: in there, and I have a couple of records I

1720
01:43:27,640 --> 01:43:31,320
Speaker 2: engineered that are in there, but including Asia. But I

1721
01:43:31,320 --> 01:43:34,200
Speaker 2: couldn't be more proud of this one. And and what

1722
01:43:34,439 --> 01:43:35,280
Speaker 2: what's come from it?

1723
01:43:43,040 --> 01:43:46,639
Speaker 1: Okay? Why did you not mix Asia? How'd you feel

1724
01:43:46,680 --> 01:43:47,080
Speaker 1: about that?

1725
01:43:49,960 --> 01:43:53,800
Speaker 2: Okay? When when we were done with the tracks, they came,

1726
01:43:53,920 --> 01:43:56,559
Speaker 2: the boys came to me the last day and they said, okay,

1727
01:43:56,600 --> 01:43:59,000
Speaker 2: we're going to go off and do overdubs. It's going

1728
01:43:59,080 --> 01:44:02,680
Speaker 2: to be you know, months of you know, experimenting with

1729
01:44:02,720 --> 01:44:04,519
Speaker 2: the tracks and seeing what we want to do and

1730
01:44:04,520 --> 01:44:06,680
Speaker 2: so on, but we want you to mix it when

1731
01:44:06,720 --> 01:44:10,080
Speaker 2: we're done. And I said, guys, don't I don't think

1732
01:44:10,200 --> 01:44:12,400
Speaker 2: it would work. And they looked at me and said,

1733
01:44:12,439 --> 01:44:14,519
Speaker 2: what do you mean. I said, I have a kind

1734
01:44:14,520 --> 01:44:18,439
Speaker 2: of a different mixing style, and I just, you know,

1735
01:44:18,520 --> 01:44:22,040
Speaker 2: I knew that they were microscope people. When you talk

1736
01:44:22,080 --> 01:44:25,320
Speaker 2: about trees, I mean, you know they should write the

1737
01:44:25,360 --> 01:44:31,599
Speaker 2: book because they and they said, well you'll try, won't you,

1738
01:44:31,600 --> 01:44:34,200
Speaker 2: you know, kind of sarcastically, and I said, yes, of course,

1739
01:44:34,240 --> 01:44:36,800
Speaker 2: I'll be glad to. So I think it was about

1740
01:44:36,840 --> 01:44:41,000
Speaker 2: five months later they called with the first song that

1741
01:44:41,160 --> 01:44:43,639
Speaker 2: was done, even though it turns out it wasn't done,

1742
01:44:44,640 --> 01:44:48,559
Speaker 2: but which was Josie When Josie comes home and we

1743
01:44:48,640 --> 01:44:52,280
Speaker 2: went into the studio and I got to mix up

1744
01:44:52,280 --> 01:44:58,240
Speaker 2: that I felt was really good, and I don't think

1745
01:44:58,320 --> 01:45:01,720
Speaker 2: Walter came in, only Gary Cats and Donald came in,

1746
01:45:02,600 --> 01:45:05,439
Speaker 2: and you know, Donald listened to it and he said,

1747
01:45:05,800 --> 01:45:09,519
Speaker 2: it feels really good. Oh thank you. He said, okay,

1748
01:45:09,560 --> 01:45:14,799
Speaker 2: well let's try this there. Okay, now again there's no computer.

1749
01:45:15,240 --> 01:45:17,920
Speaker 2: I'm sitting down. The thing starts. The way I would

1750
01:45:17,960 --> 01:45:20,000
Speaker 2: do it back then is I would mark the faders

1751
01:45:20,000 --> 01:45:22,760
Speaker 2: on a good starting point and then so I know

1752
01:45:22,840 --> 01:45:25,960
Speaker 2: that at least every time I start the mix, it's

1753
01:45:25,960 --> 01:45:28,120
Speaker 2: going to have the exact same starting point. Where it

1754
01:45:28,160 --> 01:45:31,040
Speaker 2: goes from there is up to my right brain. So

1755
01:45:32,600 --> 01:45:36,680
Speaker 2: I tried as he wanted this there and he liked it,

1756
01:45:37,160 --> 01:45:42,400
Speaker 2: said maybe we should try that here with that there? Yeah,

1757
01:45:42,479 --> 01:45:46,960
Speaker 2: with that there, And so it goes and for an hour,

1758
01:45:47,360 --> 01:45:51,519
Speaker 2: two hours, three hours, and finally I think it'd been

1759
01:45:51,800 --> 01:45:54,679
Speaker 2: like four hours. I'm worn out. I haven't got it.

1760
01:45:54,720 --> 01:45:58,559
Speaker 2: The right brain is asleep. It's on remote control. I can't.

1761
01:45:58,600 --> 01:46:02,400
Speaker 2: I don't feel anything anymore. And they knew it, and uh,

1762
01:46:03,040 --> 01:46:05,400
Speaker 2: and I pushed back from the chair and I said, guys,

1763
01:46:05,760 --> 01:46:10,280
Speaker 2: you've got an unbelievable record here, And you know I couldn't.

1764
01:46:10,520 --> 01:46:13,040
Speaker 2: I couldn't be happier. I wish I could be a

1765
01:46:13,080 --> 01:46:15,519
Speaker 2: part of it, but I it just it's not It's

1766
01:46:15,520 --> 01:46:18,120
Speaker 2: not going to work for me. And so there I was,

1767
01:46:18,240 --> 01:46:21,200
Speaker 2: and my good good friend Elliott Shiner, who had mixed

1768
01:46:21,200 --> 01:46:25,200
Speaker 2: the previous record, did a mixed most of that. Al

1769
01:46:25,240 --> 01:46:29,879
Speaker 2: Schmidt I think mixed one and and Uh did a

1770
01:46:29,960 --> 01:46:32,640
Speaker 2: you know, a wonderful job. I wish I believe me,

1771
01:46:32,720 --> 01:46:33,439
Speaker 2: I wish I could have.

1772
01:46:34,400 --> 01:46:37,800
Speaker 1: Okay, you were in the studio with them. Walter and

1773
01:46:37,880 --> 01:46:41,599
Speaker 1: Donald are really opinionated guys. You know what they want?

1774
01:46:42,000 --> 01:46:44,080
Speaker 1: What did Geary Katz ad?

1775
01:46:48,360 --> 01:46:59,000
Speaker 2: Oh? Boy, not much, not much at all it was

1776
01:46:59,720 --> 01:47:03,560
Speaker 2: he he kept the peace and he kept order, and

1777
01:47:05,680 --> 01:47:10,320
Speaker 2: nothing creatively, you know, nothing. It was as you say,

1778
01:47:10,400 --> 01:47:14,240
Speaker 2: it was primarily Donald and some walter on with regard

1779
01:47:14,240 --> 01:47:17,599
Speaker 2: to talking to the musicians and moving things the way

1780
01:47:17,640 --> 01:47:18,680
Speaker 2: they wanted them to go.

1781
01:47:19,560 --> 01:47:23,120
Speaker 1: Okay, we live in a as you mentioned earlier, inherently

1782
01:47:23,320 --> 01:47:28,440
Speaker 1: vinyl is compromised. Yeah, we're in an era of vinyl fetishism.

1783
01:47:28,800 --> 01:47:32,560
Speaker 1: What is your take on vinyl visa the digital.

1784
01:47:35,479 --> 01:47:36,880
Speaker 2: I don't know if I misheard you or if you

1785
01:47:36,960 --> 01:47:39,880
Speaker 2: misunderstood me. I don't look at vinyl as a compromise

1786
01:47:39,920 --> 01:47:40,240
Speaker 2: at all.

1787
01:47:40,560 --> 01:47:42,679
Speaker 1: Well, let me state what I'm stating as supposed putting

1788
01:47:42,720 --> 01:47:46,599
Speaker 1: words in your mouth. When one is cutting a vinyl record,

1789
01:47:46,720 --> 01:47:50,960
Speaker 1: you have to worry about amplitude, You have to worry

1790
01:47:50,960 --> 01:47:54,240
Speaker 1: about roll off. The more attracts you put on one

1791
01:47:54,320 --> 01:47:56,519
Speaker 1: side affects on. You have a different sound on the

1792
01:47:56,600 --> 01:47:58,680
Speaker 1: beginning of the groove, different sound on the end of

1793
01:47:58,720 --> 01:48:02,120
Speaker 1: the groove. Lot of those issues that you have in

1794
01:48:02,240 --> 01:48:07,160
Speaker 1: vinyl it's still music, do not apply to digital. Now

1795
01:48:07,360 --> 01:48:09,439
Speaker 1: there's a couple of other things I'll put.

1796
01:48:09,280 --> 01:48:09,840
Speaker 2: In the mix.

1797
01:48:10,720 --> 01:48:13,559
Speaker 1: Yes, all this stuff in the seventies, certainly before that

1798
01:48:13,600 --> 01:48:17,040
Speaker 1: was all cut on tape, So it's analog to begin with,

1799
01:48:17,880 --> 01:48:24,680
Speaker 1: whereas almost everything today is cut digital. So what kind

1800
01:48:24,720 --> 01:48:28,360
Speaker 1: of sense does it make to go from digital to vinyl,

1801
01:48:29,479 --> 01:48:32,840
Speaker 1: especially now where you can there you know, there are

1802
01:48:33,040 --> 01:48:37,800
Speaker 1: streaming services that are streaming way above CD quality. So

1803
01:48:38,000 --> 01:48:41,120
Speaker 1: what's your take there on the vinyl explosion?

1804
01:48:43,960 --> 01:48:52,880
Speaker 2: Okay, so, yes, you point out accurately that vinyl has drawbacks. Well, again,

1805
01:48:53,040 --> 01:48:57,680
Speaker 2: analog tape has, in my opinion, more analog tape has

1806
01:48:57,680 --> 01:49:01,440
Speaker 2: a sound. It was never a mirror. And the directed

1807
01:49:01,479 --> 01:49:05,880
Speaker 2: disc which goes from the console right to the disc

1808
01:49:06,320 --> 01:49:10,000
Speaker 2: and you listen to the clarity and reality of that

1809
01:49:10,080 --> 01:49:14,120
Speaker 2: compared to two generations of analog tape and then putting

1810
01:49:14,160 --> 01:49:18,840
Speaker 2: it on there, it shows that even with its problems,

1811
01:49:20,080 --> 01:49:22,439
Speaker 2: disc the disc is more of a mirror than analog

1812
01:49:22,479 --> 01:49:25,920
Speaker 2: tape ever was, let alone two generations of it and

1813
01:49:25,960 --> 01:49:31,120
Speaker 2: two passes through the console that said today, you know,

1814
01:49:31,880 --> 01:49:35,200
Speaker 2: digital is a thing. And it started obviously with artists

1815
01:49:35,800 --> 01:49:38,639
Speaker 2: wanting something to sell, primarily I think, you know, I mean,

1816
01:49:38,760 --> 01:49:42,240
Speaker 2: I remember when it was gaining traction. I haven't heard recently,

1817
01:49:42,280 --> 01:49:45,439
Speaker 2: but you know, it was like in the beginning they

1818
01:49:45,479 --> 01:49:48,120
Speaker 2: were saying that, you know, seventy five percent. I'm sure

1819
01:49:48,120 --> 01:49:51,720
Speaker 2: it's gone down some seventy five percent of the albums

1820
01:49:51,760 --> 01:49:55,400
Speaker 2: sold at least, especially at gigs. It's just for the

1821
01:49:56,520 --> 01:49:58,519
Speaker 2: memory thing. And you know they're never put on a

1822
01:49:58,560 --> 01:50:02,880
Speaker 2: turntable and listen to I know that turntables are on

1823
01:50:02,920 --> 01:50:07,160
Speaker 2: the rise. I know that more people are doing it now.

1824
01:50:07,200 --> 01:50:12,400
Speaker 2: To your question about does it make sense, well, no,

1825
01:50:13,479 --> 01:50:17,040
Speaker 2: the way you're asking it, absolutely not. When you can

1826
01:50:17,080 --> 01:50:20,479
Speaker 2: hear okay, when you can hear something full range. As

1827
01:50:20,520 --> 01:50:23,519
Speaker 2: I said in the beginning of the interview, sixteen forty

1828
01:50:23,520 --> 01:50:26,760
Speaker 2: four to one, which is CD equality never sounded good

1829
01:50:26,800 --> 01:50:30,360
Speaker 2: to me in nineteen eighty two and still doesn't in

1830
01:50:30,400 --> 01:50:34,840
Speaker 2: twenty twenty five, and it never is going to. So

1831
01:50:35,800 --> 01:50:38,960
Speaker 2: the deal is, though today now we can record much

1832
01:50:39,000 --> 01:50:42,479
Speaker 2: higher as in ninety six or even one ninety two,

1833
01:50:43,160 --> 01:50:45,800
Speaker 2: And when you get up and with those and thirty

1834
01:50:45,800 --> 01:50:51,760
Speaker 2: two bits floating as opposed to sixteen bits, when you

1835
01:50:51,800 --> 01:50:55,879
Speaker 2: get up there, you're talking about a really with great converter,

1836
01:50:56,400 --> 01:51:03,200
Speaker 2: outstanding mirror of what's coming through this class. So you know,

1837
01:51:03,680 --> 01:51:08,040
Speaker 2: there's there's very little reason to put it on disc.

1838
01:51:08,320 --> 01:51:10,519
Speaker 2: To me, if you can hear it in those now

1839
01:51:10,720 --> 01:51:17,040
Speaker 2: hear it in those operatues. But unfortunately most people, you know,

1840
01:51:17,720 --> 01:51:19,880
Speaker 2: I can't tell you most people still don't even record

1841
01:51:19,920 --> 01:51:22,479
Speaker 2: it ninety six. They still record it forty eight, which

1842
01:51:22,520 --> 01:51:25,479
Speaker 2: is only a NAT's better than forty four to one.

1843
01:51:26,120 --> 01:51:29,360
Speaker 2: I don't understand it. Discs are cheap, you know. It

1844
01:51:29,439 --> 01:51:32,320
Speaker 2: was one thing in nineteen eighty five, when you know

1845
01:51:32,360 --> 01:51:36,240
Speaker 2: it costs a fortune to put the the bits on

1846
01:51:36,320 --> 01:51:39,599
Speaker 2: a computer, you know, on a hard drive. But today

1847
01:51:39,840 --> 01:51:43,040
Speaker 2: you buy a solid state drive with a lifetime supply

1848
01:51:43,200 --> 01:51:47,880
Speaker 2: for a few hundred dollars, and what the heck? You know,

1849
01:51:47,920 --> 01:51:53,000
Speaker 2: it's just like, why not record higher? I don't get it,

1850
01:51:53,600 --> 01:51:57,479
Speaker 2: but so and yes, if you can get it that

1851
01:51:57,560 --> 01:52:00,880
Speaker 2: way and then stream it, yeah, you get on title

1852
01:52:01,280 --> 01:52:06,200
Speaker 2: you know or co buzz. It sounds quite good. Nothing

1853
01:52:06,240 --> 01:52:10,960
Speaker 2: like a CD plus plus one last thing plus plus.

1854
01:52:11,040 --> 01:52:14,400
Speaker 2: The other thing is with the CD. The other thing

1855
01:52:14,439 --> 01:52:18,400
Speaker 2: that hurt the CD was the fact that we got

1856
01:52:18,400 --> 01:52:22,080
Speaker 2: into level wars. Now we've always had level wars. We

1857
01:52:22,160 --> 01:52:25,680
Speaker 2: had Level Wars in the fifties with forty fives, in

1858
01:52:25,720 --> 01:52:28,960
Speaker 2: the sixties with forty fives. My take on it was

1859
01:52:29,720 --> 01:52:34,439
Speaker 2: everyone wanted a hot record. Why so, you know, when

1860
01:52:34,479 --> 01:52:37,000
Speaker 2: it played on the radio. You know, it would try

1861
01:52:37,040 --> 01:52:39,840
Speaker 2: to get through all the compression and jump a little bit.

1862
01:52:40,360 --> 01:52:42,479
Speaker 2: And I used to always say, you know, the guys,

1863
01:52:42,680 --> 01:52:46,040
Speaker 2: the promotion guys would go into a local, smaller radio

1864
01:52:46,040 --> 01:52:48,400
Speaker 2: station where they're trying to get you know, they were

1865
01:52:48,400 --> 01:52:51,240
Speaker 2: going around the country doing this in smaller markets, not

1866
01:52:51,320 --> 01:52:55,200
Speaker 2: the big ones, and like Nashville for instance, And you

1867
01:52:55,200 --> 01:52:57,519
Speaker 2: know the DJ. They going to see the DJ. He's

1868
01:52:57,520 --> 01:52:59,640
Speaker 2: on the air and he's got two turntables and he

1869
01:52:59,680 --> 01:53:01,400
Speaker 2: puts on the next single and here's the new one

1870
01:53:01,439 --> 01:53:03,720
Speaker 2: from so and so and plays it out to go.

1871
01:53:04,080 --> 01:53:06,080
Speaker 2: Then he turns the speakers in the control room off

1872
01:53:06,080 --> 01:53:07,800
Speaker 2: and says, what do you got, Oh, this is a

1873
01:53:07,840 --> 01:53:09,960
Speaker 2: new single from this listen to it. And he puts

1874
01:53:09,960 --> 01:53:12,960
Speaker 2: it on and he's just heard the other single and

1875
01:53:13,000 --> 01:53:15,040
Speaker 2: it's not loud. This isn't as loud, it doesn't jump

1876
01:53:15,080 --> 01:53:17,280
Speaker 2: out of the speakers. Promotion guy goes back to the

1877
01:53:17,280 --> 01:53:19,240
Speaker 2: record company and says, you've got to get it hotter.

1878
01:53:19,320 --> 01:53:21,800
Speaker 2: It's got to be hotter. It's not hot enough. So

1879
01:53:21,960 --> 01:53:24,040
Speaker 2: we've always had level wars, but when we got into

1880
01:53:24,080 --> 01:53:29,720
Speaker 2: the you can only go so far without insane distortion. Well, unfortunately,

1881
01:53:30,760 --> 01:53:34,720
Speaker 2: in digital land, you can you can go crazy without

1882
01:53:35,040 --> 01:53:37,559
Speaker 2: the same kind of distortion, a different kind of distortion.

1883
01:53:38,080 --> 01:53:42,439
Speaker 2: So CDs, because you know, we finally got a medium

1884
01:53:42,640 --> 01:53:46,959
Speaker 2: that had one hundred and ten dB level of dynamic

1885
01:53:47,080 --> 01:53:50,000
Speaker 2: level and we use the top all but the top

1886
01:53:50,040 --> 01:53:54,040
Speaker 2: five to eight percent. It absolutely is stupid, but that's

1887
01:53:54,080 --> 01:53:56,200
Speaker 2: how it was, So that's what you were comparing to.

1888
01:53:56,360 --> 01:53:59,479
Speaker 2: So yeah, if you get on those streamings, those two

1889
01:53:59,520 --> 01:54:03,200
Speaker 2: streamings services, I'm not familiar with Apple what their's was light,

1890
01:54:03,360 --> 01:54:07,040
Speaker 2: but where they're actually doing ninety six k's In addition

1891
01:54:07,200 --> 01:54:11,880
Speaker 2: to them being higher quality because of being that high,

1892
01:54:12,000 --> 01:54:14,559
Speaker 2: they're also not compressed to living death the way the

1893
01:54:14,560 --> 01:54:15,200
Speaker 2: CDs were.

1894
01:54:16,600 --> 01:54:21,800
Speaker 1: Okay, in terms of yourself monitoring, one thing we know

1895
01:54:22,000 --> 01:54:26,880
Speaker 1: is every speaker sounds different. How important were the speakers

1896
01:54:26,920 --> 01:54:30,040
Speaker 1: to you and what do you listen to on playback?

1897
01:54:34,160 --> 01:54:38,440
Speaker 2: Well speakers are I'd like to say they're very important.

1898
01:54:39,600 --> 01:54:43,080
Speaker 2: You know, when I started through the seventies, before I

1899
01:54:43,120 --> 01:54:46,680
Speaker 2: built my studio, I worked in lots of different studios

1900
01:54:46,800 --> 01:54:52,440
Speaker 2: and Doug Sachs, my mastering engineer, said you must mix

1901
01:54:52,520 --> 01:54:54,240
Speaker 2: by the meters because I don't know how you can

1902
01:54:54,320 --> 01:54:57,720
Speaker 2: relate to these different studios, especially back then when some

1903
01:54:57,760 --> 01:55:04,200
Speaker 2: of them just had horrific monitoring, terrible monitoring. But speakers

1904
01:55:04,200 --> 01:55:07,640
Speaker 2: are definitely very important, and it's how you relate to

1905
01:55:07,720 --> 01:55:11,360
Speaker 2: a speaker. It's one of the most important things. Because

1906
01:55:11,840 --> 01:55:14,640
Speaker 2: I've heard good engineers that work with speakers that I

1907
01:55:14,680 --> 01:55:18,440
Speaker 2: could never mix on or wouldn't want to. Maybe I

1908
01:55:18,480 --> 01:55:21,720
Speaker 2: could would have to. I don't know, and I don't understand,

1909
01:55:21,800 --> 01:55:24,840
Speaker 2: and they come out with good mixes everywhere. And that's

1910
01:55:24,920 --> 01:55:27,280
Speaker 2: the key, is that you want you want to mix.

1911
01:55:27,720 --> 01:55:31,480
Speaker 2: In my early days with Doug, I literally would go

1912
01:55:31,520 --> 01:55:34,600
Speaker 2: to hi fi stores where you could go in and

1913
01:55:34,720 --> 01:55:37,400
Speaker 2: play something and they had push buttons you may remember that,

1914
01:55:37,400 --> 01:55:40,040
Speaker 2: where you could go in and go from this speaker

1915
01:55:40,080 --> 01:55:42,800
Speaker 2: to that speaker to this speaker. And it was always

1916
01:55:42,800 --> 01:55:44,560
Speaker 2: great to see if all of them were in phase,

1917
01:55:44,960 --> 01:55:47,040
Speaker 2: because sometimes one of them here they are trying to

1918
01:55:47,040 --> 01:55:49,800
Speaker 2: sell their equipment and the speakers are out of phase.

1919
01:55:49,800 --> 01:55:53,920
Speaker 2: It's just a wonderful thing. But I digress anyway, and

1920
01:55:54,200 --> 01:55:58,280
Speaker 2: that was very helpful in the beginning to see you

1921
01:55:58,320 --> 01:56:01,200
Speaker 2: can't go crazy with that because it'll literally drive you crazy.

1922
01:56:01,480 --> 01:56:04,720
Speaker 2: The fact that some speakers could be so incredibly different,

1923
01:56:05,000 --> 01:56:07,280
Speaker 2: let alone what room they're in and all of that.

1924
01:56:08,280 --> 01:56:13,920
Speaker 2: For me personally, I used Richie Podler monitored on one

1925
01:56:15,720 --> 01:56:19,200
Speaker 2: six inch speaker, even in this when we went to stereo,

1926
01:56:20,200 --> 01:56:24,520
Speaker 2: and I remember him asking him about that, and he said,

1927
01:56:24,600 --> 01:56:26,800
Speaker 2: I mix on one speaker because I want to know

1928
01:56:27,200 --> 01:56:29,600
Speaker 2: what it's going to sound like on the radio. And

1929
01:56:29,680 --> 01:56:31,440
Speaker 2: he said, if it didn't sound good on the radio,

1930
01:56:31,760 --> 01:56:33,520
Speaker 2: no one's going to buy it, so it doesn't matter

1931
01:56:33,520 --> 01:56:37,000
Speaker 2: how it sounds anywhere else. And I can't say that

1932
01:56:37,040 --> 01:56:39,760
Speaker 2: he was wrong back then. So I started off on

1933
01:56:39,840 --> 01:56:43,480
Speaker 2: small speakers before small speakers were a thing. And then

1934
01:56:43,520 --> 01:56:45,640
Speaker 2: when most people went to small speakers, there were these

1935
01:56:45,640 --> 01:56:49,480
Speaker 2: little teeny cubes. What is that three inch or something

1936
01:56:51,120 --> 01:56:55,720
Speaker 2: to it? To that, and you know, I never could

1937
01:56:55,840 --> 01:56:58,760
Speaker 2: begin to relate to those because I couldn't hear enough,

1938
01:56:58,840 --> 01:57:01,560
Speaker 2: you know, And it's what's real. I don't know. In fact,

1939
01:57:01,560 --> 01:57:04,080
Speaker 2: I remember the greatest thing happened when we when we

1940
01:57:04,160 --> 01:57:07,440
Speaker 2: found an AM transmitter where you could put it in

1941
01:57:07,480 --> 01:57:10,200
Speaker 2: the studio, park your cars parked in the parking lot.

1942
01:57:10,320 --> 01:57:12,680
Speaker 2: The transmitter wouldn't go very far, but it would go

1943
01:57:12,720 --> 01:57:14,560
Speaker 2: to the parking lot and you could go out on

1944
01:57:14,640 --> 01:57:18,560
Speaker 2: an unused frequency and hear what it sounded like in

1945
01:57:18,600 --> 01:57:22,680
Speaker 2: your car, because cars were always important, because that's by

1946
01:57:22,720 --> 01:57:26,280
Speaker 2: and large where people heard still is and today it's

1947
01:57:26,320 --> 01:57:29,280
Speaker 2: clearly most people don't have a good stereo system. They

1948
01:57:29,320 --> 01:57:32,640
Speaker 2: have their cars and that's what goes on. But for

1949
01:57:32,720 --> 01:57:38,000
Speaker 2: me personally, I ended up with a Tannoy speaker that

1950
01:57:38,400 --> 01:57:40,960
Speaker 2: was given to me by Tannoy. When I listened to it,

1951
01:57:41,560 --> 01:57:43,720
Speaker 2: I liked it better than their previous model, which I

1952
01:57:43,720 --> 01:57:46,520
Speaker 2: never liked. But I thought the crossover wasn't good, and

1953
01:57:46,560 --> 01:57:50,360
Speaker 2: I gave it to Doug Sachs's acoustical I mean not

1954
01:57:50,960 --> 01:57:54,120
Speaker 2: electrical engineer to work on a crossover, and he and

1955
01:57:54,200 --> 01:57:56,720
Speaker 2: Doug came up with what they called the Mastering Lab

1956
01:57:56,760 --> 01:58:00,720
Speaker 2: crossover and had a little made, a little cartage industry

1957
01:58:00,760 --> 01:58:04,320
Speaker 2: out of it. And so I've been on those ever

1958
01:58:04,360 --> 01:58:07,480
Speaker 2: since twenty something years. It's a ten inch coax.

1959
01:58:08,600 --> 01:58:12,839
Speaker 1: In your book, you stress that it's about the music

1960
01:58:13,320 --> 01:58:16,600
Speaker 1: as opposed to the sound. Can you give us some

1961
01:58:16,680 --> 01:58:20,000
Speaker 1: practical applications where you have to make that decision?

1962
01:58:22,600 --> 01:58:28,440
Speaker 2: Yes, I remember having a tough decision early on when

1963
01:58:28,840 --> 01:58:32,960
Speaker 2: I was you know, oftentimes, if you have a really

1964
01:58:33,040 --> 01:58:37,000
Speaker 2: good band, and I'm talking studio musicians or people that

1965
01:58:37,120 --> 01:58:40,440
Speaker 2: haven't lived with the music. Obviously, bands will rehearse when

1966
01:58:40,440 --> 01:58:42,320
Speaker 2: they come in and put down how they've been rehearsing it.

1967
01:58:42,360 --> 01:58:44,640
Speaker 2: But when you've got guys that are hearing the music

1968
01:58:44,720 --> 01:58:52,000
Speaker 2: basically for the first time and whatnot, quite often, quite

1969
01:58:52,000 --> 01:58:55,320
Speaker 2: often you may get an incredible take on the very

1970
01:58:55,320 --> 01:58:58,960
Speaker 2: first take. Not a lot, I shouldn't say quite often,

1971
01:58:59,680 --> 01:59:04,520
Speaker 2: but it can't happen. And I remember a tracking date

1972
01:59:04,840 --> 01:59:10,400
Speaker 2: where the first take felt great and I didn't have

1973
01:59:10,480 --> 01:59:14,960
Speaker 2: it quite together because, for instance, you know, when you

1974
01:59:14,960 --> 01:59:17,480
Speaker 2: talk about getting drum sounds, you can get it, you

1975
01:59:17,480 --> 01:59:21,360
Speaker 2: can work. That's another thing about why it's so weird

1976
01:59:21,360 --> 01:59:24,080
Speaker 2: to me to spend you know, two days a week

1977
01:59:24,120 --> 01:59:27,400
Speaker 2: whatever on a drum sound, because all that matters is

1978
01:59:27,440 --> 01:59:30,200
Speaker 2: what the sound when the guy's playing the song. And

1979
01:59:30,320 --> 01:59:33,120
Speaker 2: you know, I'm I'm okay on the drums. I mean,

1980
01:59:33,160 --> 01:59:35,520
Speaker 2: it's not my main instrument, but I can I'm doing

1981
01:59:35,560 --> 01:59:38,840
Speaker 2: I do okay. And I remember helping someone. Someone said,

1982
01:59:38,840 --> 01:59:40,680
Speaker 2: do you help me get a drum sound before the

1983
01:59:40,800 --> 01:59:43,280
Speaker 2: guy's the drum drummer gets here, And I went out

1984
01:59:43,280 --> 01:59:44,920
Speaker 2: and played for him. He got it. And then when

1985
01:59:44,960 --> 01:59:47,040
Speaker 2: the real heat and it sounded really good. The drum

1986
01:59:47,120 --> 01:59:48,880
Speaker 2: sound was great. When the guy got there, he said,

1987
01:59:48,880 --> 01:59:51,560
Speaker 2: you wouldn't believe it. It sounded totally different. I said, oh yeah,

1988
01:59:51,560 --> 01:59:53,880
Speaker 2: I'd believe it. And I've had it where I had

1989
01:59:53,880 --> 01:59:57,120
Speaker 2: a one professional drummer, Oh my gosh. Jeff Pacara was

1990
01:59:57,160 --> 02:00:00,440
Speaker 2: on a session Boss session I was producing, and Steve

1991
02:00:00,520 --> 02:00:04,120
Speaker 2: Jordan was in town, the great drummer, Steve Jordan's, and

1992
02:00:04,200 --> 02:00:07,000
Speaker 2: he came in and Jeff, who was always looking to

1993
02:00:07,040 --> 02:00:10,440
Speaker 2: give anyone and everyone a break, he said, he said,

1994
02:00:10,640 --> 02:00:13,320
Speaker 2: let Steve try a take, really, And I thought we

1995
02:00:13,320 --> 02:00:16,600
Speaker 2: were so close to getting the take really yeah, okay,

1996
02:00:16,760 --> 02:00:18,920
Speaker 2: And I knew why. Main reason was because Steve l

1997
02:00:18,960 --> 02:00:21,800
Speaker 2: liked that real pinky sound. So he goes out and

1998
02:00:21,880 --> 02:00:24,680
Speaker 2: destroys the tuning of Jeff's drum to get it up

1999
02:00:24,760 --> 02:00:28,160
Speaker 2: high pink, and and he tried a couple of takes,

2000
02:00:28,520 --> 02:00:31,800
Speaker 2: and the drum sound was not just the snare, but everything,

2001
02:00:32,240 --> 02:00:35,160
Speaker 2: the kick, even the symbols. You know, it's all about

2002
02:00:35,200 --> 02:00:38,560
Speaker 2: the dynamics of the four appendages of a drummer. And

2003
02:00:38,880 --> 02:00:42,760
Speaker 2: you know how they're their ears are, you know, are

2004
02:00:42,840 --> 02:00:46,880
Speaker 2: telling the I guess we'll consider the ears as left

2005
02:00:46,880 --> 02:00:49,240
Speaker 2: brain how the ears and the left brain are telling

2006
02:00:49,320 --> 02:00:52,440
Speaker 2: the appendages and the and the right. No, the appendages

2007
02:00:52,440 --> 02:00:54,720
Speaker 2: will be left too, I don't know. Anyway, they're going

2008
02:00:54,800 --> 02:00:57,280
Speaker 2: to tell them how to play what that they think

2009
02:00:57,320 --> 02:01:00,400
Speaker 2: feels good, and another drummer comes in and it's totally different.

2010
02:01:01,000 --> 02:01:01,760
Speaker 2: What can you do.

2011
02:01:02,680 --> 02:01:05,000
Speaker 1: Well, Bill? This has been great. I have a million

2012
02:01:05,040 --> 02:01:09,840
Speaker 1: more questions, a lot of them technical questions about boards, eques, whatever,

2013
02:01:09,920 --> 02:01:12,280
Speaker 1: but we're going to leave it here for now. I

2014
02:01:12,360 --> 02:01:14,600
Speaker 1: want to thank you so much for taking this time

2015
02:01:14,600 --> 02:01:19,920
Speaker 1: with my audience. Oh it's my my pleasure. Until next time.

2016
02:01:20,400 --> 02:01:21,800
Speaker 1: This is Bob left Sex