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Speaker 1: This is Gavin Newsom and tune in for more with

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Speaker 1: Doctor Phil. Well, look, I appreciate everything you said, but

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Speaker 1: I also appreciate the spirit, uh that that behind it,

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Speaker 1: and I think, look, it's one of the reasons we

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Speaker 1: started this podcast, and it's been really interesting, doctor Phil.

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Speaker 1: It's really underscored the nature and you've talked a lot

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Speaker 1: about cancel culture and this incapacity to to to be

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Speaker 1: willing to engage people you may disagree with and and

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Speaker 1: as you say, focus on the things we have in common.

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Speaker 1: But it's interesting how quick people are to judge, and

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Speaker 1: how quickly we are all judged. I imagine just the

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Speaker 1: response you got coming out of that Madison Square Garden rally.

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Speaker 1: I imagine just now you're sort of foray with ice

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Speaker 1: and maybe just a little bit more into the political realm,

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Speaker 1: how quick people are to judge. And so I think

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Speaker 1: it's incredibly important because divorce is not an option. We're

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Speaker 1: all in this together, and you know, it's becoming more

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Speaker 1: and more exhausting, and as you have rightfully highlighted you

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Speaker 1: did it in your book. We've got issues the nature

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Speaker 1: of social media and algorithms and what's going on in

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Speaker 1: terms of how things have become weaponized, and how we

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Speaker 1: are increasingly feeling out of control, isolated, disconnected from a

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Speaker 1: larger sense of purpose, Meaning all the things you've been

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Speaker 1: talking about in your show and the work you've been doing,

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Speaker 1: and so just on that, what more can we be doing,

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Speaker 1: What can we be doing to soften the edges of

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Speaker 1: this discourse and begin the process of being repairs proverbially

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Speaker 1: the breach.

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Speaker 2: Do you think freedom of speech is under attack?

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Speaker 1: I think it is. And I've made this point. One

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Speaker 1: of the reasons I have long admired Bill Maher and

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Speaker 1: gone on a show a dozen times since my mayor

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Speaker 1: days is I didn't like the way he was being

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Speaker 1: attacked the freedom of speech, his expression was being attacked

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Speaker 1: in my own UC campuses. I've watched cancel culture, never

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Speaker 1: been a champion of cancel culture. Of course, I've seen

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Speaker 1: it on all sides. We saw with bud Light, we

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Speaker 1: saw it with Target last year. You know, it occurs.

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Speaker 1: You know there's boycotts all the time, coming from both

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Speaker 1: prisms and the political parties. But I think I think

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Speaker 1: it's out of control, and I think it's something we

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Speaker 1: need to push back again. So we need to own

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Speaker 1: up to.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it seems to be worse in California than you know.

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Speaker 2: I've moved back to Texas, and you know, no place

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Speaker 2: is perfect. But I see things like, what was it

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Speaker 2: Berkeley where Ann Coulter got canceled? They said it was

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Speaker 2: for security concerns. You can always have security.

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Speaker 1: But that my litt guy, I can't remember his name.

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Speaker 1: I remember sort of the peak of that cancer culture.

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Speaker 2: You know, why do you think that is? When I

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Speaker 2: went to school a long time ago, but we always

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Speaker 2: if somebody was coming that we disagreed with, I always

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Speaker 2: wanted to go here what they had to say, so

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Speaker 2: I had ammunition to debate them with or their positions with.

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Speaker 2: And you never grow until you disprove yourself, until you

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Speaker 2: find something wrong with the way you look at it.

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Speaker 2: But it seems like in California we've got the Heckler's veto.

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Speaker 2: It's like boo them down or block them from coming.

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Speaker 2: And I see it at Berkeley, U C, L a

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Speaker 2: USC and it just seems like, how are we ever

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Speaker 2: going to broaden our perspectives? If we don't get out

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Speaker 2: of the bubble and at least listen to the other side,

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Speaker 2: you may find out that's exactly why I don't agree

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Speaker 2: with that, sob exactly how to hear them to do it.

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Speaker 1: I couldn't agree with you. More needs to be called out.

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Speaker 1: I've been trying to do what I can on that.

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Speaker 2: I mean, be candidate.

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Speaker 1: That's why I've been calling out all these book bands.

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Speaker 1: Two hundred and forty books and titles were banned last

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Speaker 1: year in this country. I mean, we're censoring, you know,

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Speaker 1: speech in the boardroom, not just in the classroom. You've

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Speaker 1: got folks are rewriting history. You've talked a lot about that,

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Speaker 1: but on both sides of the aisle. I mean they

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Speaker 1: were trying to One textbook in Florida tried to take

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Speaker 1: out Rosa Park's race and said, oh no, she was

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Speaker 1: just a woman who wanted to move, needed to move

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Speaker 1: her seat. So I think we have to own up

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Speaker 1: to this. And I think again, there's plenty of plenty

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Speaker 1: of fingers point or at least twenty people that we

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Speaker 1: can point to, but all of us need to look

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Speaker 1: in the mirror on this issue.

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Speaker 2: I agree with you as California taking a position on

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Speaker 2: transgender athletes. I hadn't seen what the latest.

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Speaker 1: Well it did in twenty and thirteen ind Team Governor

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Speaker 1: Brown signed a bill allowing for people to participate. As

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Speaker 1: you know, that issue is very raw and emotional, and

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Speaker 1: it's obviously very pointed this moment because of some state championships.

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Speaker 1: There was two bills in the California legislature, doctor Phil

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Speaker 1: just a few weeks ago. Neither got out of the

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Speaker 1: committee to change that rule, so it currently is law

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Speaker 1: in the state of California and cif that that does

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Speaker 1: the innercollegiate founded, you know, does all the sports. They're

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Speaker 1: trying to find some accommodation that addresses the legitimate concerns

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Speaker 1: around fairness and I say legitimate concerns about fairness and

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Speaker 1: make sure that those that may have been displaced because

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Speaker 1: they were outperformed by a transgender athlete I have the

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Speaker 1: opportunity to still participate and be recognized for that participation.

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Speaker 1: We're also just trying to balance some grace, some humility,

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Speaker 1: some humanity, particularly with transgender youth that just want to

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Speaker 1: survive and don't want to be belittled and demeaned at

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Speaker 1: the same time. So a very tough issue, and I

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Speaker 1: know you've tackled that issue. I think you've done it

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Speaker 1: reasonably thoughtfully. I think you've tried to find the nuances here,

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Speaker 1: but it's incredibly difficult issue. And I say this as

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Speaker 1: someone who's been an advocate for trans writes, but I

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Speaker 1: do not think it's fair these athletic competitions, and I've

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Speaker 1: made that point of view very very public Well.

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Speaker 2: This is one of the things where I say that

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Speaker 2: I believe that activists are pushing an agenda. And I've

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Speaker 2: had so many transgender individuals on the show over the

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Speaker 2: last twenty five years, and I can tell you that

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Speaker 2: they have said to me on the air and off

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Speaker 2: mostly off the air, that they'd wish those people would

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Speaker 2: shut up. These shrill activists that are pushing these extreme positions.

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Speaker 2: They're not speaking for us, they're not speaking for the

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Speaker 2: community at large. And they say, look, we're living our

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Speaker 2: lives and there are enough challenges as it is without

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Speaker 2: them pushing these extreme controversial issues that we don't particularly

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Speaker 2: ascribe to. They're not helping us. That's something that they

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Speaker 2: are just trying to rewrite biology on or they're trying

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Speaker 2: to make a battleground, and they do it effectively. I

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Speaker 2: had Professor Carol Hooven on from university at Harvard University

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Speaker 2: and She didn't even do the research. She was just reporting.

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Speaker 2: Did a meta analysis on I think it was fifty

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Speaker 2: plus studies of others that had looked at the biological

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Speaker 2: markers to see whether or not you could balance the

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Speaker 2: playing field among elit athletes. And she looked at if

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Speaker 2: you have testosterone blockers, if you have hormone suppression therapy,

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Speaker 2: and for the required two years before and after poverty,

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Speaker 2: looked puberty, looked at every possible way, and the meta

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Speaker 2: conclusion for good methodology, with good in right number of subjects,

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Speaker 2: and they concluded you just can't get there. You, I mean,

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Speaker 2: even if it's ten percent difference in swimming competition among

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Speaker 2: the lead athletes as you know everything, they measure that

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Speaker 2: by hundreds of a second off a fingernail touching the wall. Uh,

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Speaker 2: and in a four lap race ten percent. They can

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Speaker 2: be down there kicking off the wall and they're standing

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Speaker 2: there with their arms crossed waiting for him to make

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Speaker 2: the last lamp.

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Speaker 1: Now, it wasn't one of the what wasn't, And forgive me,

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Speaker 1: it wasn't. She admonished by the administration over there as

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Speaker 1: well for just concluding.

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Speaker 2: Those completely driven down of the university. Yeah, they're transphobic, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: spawning hate speech.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we had well, doctor, I trust me, I know

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Speaker 1: a thing or two about this. I expressed my point

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Speaker 1: of view. I lost a few. I don't need to

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Speaker 1: went on the public therapy session here, but I lost

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Speaker 1: some good friends. I mean they're just then won't talk

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Speaker 1: to me. They're done, And you know, I appreciate they

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Speaker 1: felt hurt. They felt that point of view was, you know,

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Speaker 1: somehow diminishing. I I someone has been an advocate that

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Speaker 1: I put up against any other elected official. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I have a very strong record, as you know. I

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Speaker 1: think the first time I was on your show, it

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Speaker 1: was was on the issue of lgbt rights, and I've

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Speaker 1: been an advocate for decades and decades, but on the

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Speaker 1: issue of sports and and what you just you know,

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Speaker 1: you laid out as it relates to many different factors

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Speaker 1: that are unique and regardless of puberty blockers. I just

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Speaker 1: think this issue we have to address and h and

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Speaker 1: to not address, we are in denial.

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Speaker 2: Well that's a good point, because I remember when you

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Speaker 2: were there and you and I agreed on that we

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Speaker 2: were both advocates for LGBTQ rights. But this is this

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Speaker 2: is a bridge too far. This is you have these

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Speaker 2: these elite athletes. These are kids that get up oftentimes

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Speaker 2: an hour or two before school. I mean they're up

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Speaker 2: at four and five o'clock in the morning working out

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Speaker 2: before school four years oh yeah, and then all of

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Speaker 2: a sudden somebody steps in and bumps them out of

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Speaker 2: the competition, and it's I hate to see that. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Well, which I got four young kids, all athletes, wife

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Speaker 1: who has played for the junior national soccer team. I

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Speaker 1: got into college, only got into a four year college

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Speaker 1: because of sports. And it's many ways the reason I'm here.

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Speaker 1: So I deeply appreciate how resident this issue and passionate

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Speaker 1: this issue is. At the same time, you know, it's

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Speaker 1: I humbly submit doctor that I think it's been weaponized

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Speaker 1: by some groups. I'm not suggesting by any stretch you have.

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Speaker 1: I think I've listened to you on this topic, and

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Speaker 1: I think you've tried to be very thoughtful on it.

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Speaker 1: Other though, are a little less thoughtful and have used

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Speaker 1: this in a way that I don't think advanced the

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Speaker 1: larger call that I think you and I are calling for.

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Speaker 1: Just that's just finding our common humanity and try to

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Speaker 1: unify with as you suggest common sense.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And the sad thing is, I think you've it's

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Speaker 2: kind of identity politics. If you don't agree with everything,

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Speaker 2: you're immediately labeled transphobic. And I think they lose some

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Speaker 2: very strong advocates by throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

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Speaker 1: Well, and I'd be in that category. And anyone who

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Speaker 1: suggests that that is they don't know who I am,

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Speaker 1: what I've done, And so I'm very sensitive the point

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Speaker 1: you just made, and I certainly appreciate it, just on

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Speaker 1: the issues of broader issues that I think just in

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Speaker 1: the spirit of this conversation, you know, when you wrote

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Speaker 1: this book, We've Got issues, what was was this was

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Speaker 1: this sort of the gateway to the new media a company?

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Speaker 1: Was this sort of the transition book? What I mean,

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Speaker 1: you haven't transitioned on your passion for family as sort

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Speaker 1: of the core unit. Uh and and faith as well,

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Speaker 1: which I appreciate your commitment to faith, including your new

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Speaker 1: role under the Trump administration. Just tell us a little

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Speaker 1: bit more in the spirit of of of that book,

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Speaker 1: what we what we were trying to achieve.

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Speaker 2: You know, I I've I've always thought, you know, it's

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Speaker 2: funny they they talk about the general category of talk show,

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Speaker 2: and it's it's really interesting that it's if you're going

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Speaker 2: to be successful, they really should probably call it listening show,

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Speaker 2: because if you don't listen to your audience and let

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Speaker 2: them tell you what you need to focus on, you're

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Speaker 2: not going to last very long. And we always refer

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Speaker 2: to Hollywood is a thirteen week town, and if you

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Speaker 2: get thirteenth weeks in Hollywood, you're lucky. And you know,

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Speaker 2: I was on for twenty one years, and they wanted

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Speaker 2: me to renew for three more. When I said no,

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Speaker 2: I'm going to go do my own thing, and there

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Speaker 2: was a difference because a cross those twenty one years.

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Speaker 2: Very unusually, I owned my own show, which is you

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Speaker 2: probably know that's very rare in Hollywood. The network likes

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Speaker 2: to own the show. But I owned my own show.

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Speaker 2: So I did thirty eight hundred shows and I owned

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Speaker 2: them lock Stock and Beryl, so that whole library is

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Speaker 2: something I own, and most of those shows are pretty

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Speaker 2: evergreen and across time. I had a great staff, and

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Speaker 2: for the whole twenty one years, I had one executive producer.

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Speaker 2: I had you know, five supervising producers that were there

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Speaker 2: pretty much the whole time. I had the same seven

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Speaker 2: cameramen for twenty one years. For god, I've had the

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Speaker 2: same secretary or they changed what they call them across

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Speaker 2: the years. She's been with me forty five years, So

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Speaker 2: I mean I've had the same team around me. I'm

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Speaker 2: so blessed to have them. And things change, Governor, think

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Speaker 2: about this. I started in two and the first text

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Speaker 2: message had never been sent when I started. And think

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Speaker 2: how much things have changed in like nine is when

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Speaker 2: they started dropping smartphones on all of us. And I

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Speaker 2: think that's the biggest change in our civilization since the

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Speaker 2: Industrial Revolution. And I know there were kind of four

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Speaker 2: industrial revolutions kind of jammed together there, but I think

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Speaker 2: this was the biggest change since mechanization.

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Speaker 1: And by the way, just speaking of jam together, I

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Speaker 1: remember being jammed together right there at the Moscone Center

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Speaker 1: in San Francisco in January of two thousand and seven

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Speaker 1: when Steve Jobs comes out with some damn device. Little

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Speaker 1: did we know, but what hit I'll never forget. It

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Speaker 1: wasn't the device. It was that damn app store in

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Speaker 1: July of two thousand and eight, that, to your point,

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Speaker 1: changed everything in more ways.

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Speaker 2: On more days, well, you know, kids were going through

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Speaker 2: life like this, and then all of a sudden, they

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Speaker 2: were going through like this.

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Speaker 1: And.

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Speaker 2: I and we listen, and for example, the words cyber

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Speaker 2: and bully had never been used together in the same

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Speaker 2: sentence because there was no such thing. And then all

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Speaker 2: of a sudden, I had to start dealing with cyber bullying.

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Speaker 2: And in fact, I went to Capitol Hill. They asked

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Speaker 2: me to come testify on reauthorization of the Elementary and

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Speaker 2: Secondary Education Act, and a lot of my testimony was about,

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Speaker 2: you have to start allocating some funds to dealing with

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Speaker 2: cyber bullying because it's become Bullies used to be in

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Speaker 2: the lunch room or the gym or the bus docks,

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Speaker 2: but now these bullies follow the children home. They can't

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Speaker 2: get away from it. And we have to start educating

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Speaker 2: our teachers and start making preparations to deal with this

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Speaker 2: because kids are killing themselves and online predators are getting

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Speaker 2: to our children. And so, you know, it started evolving

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Speaker 2: and changing, and and I had to evolve and change

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Speaker 2: with it. And I remember the first interview I ever

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Speaker 2: gave about the doctor phil Show, Roger King, who was,

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Speaker 2: you know, the biggest force in syndication. He asked me

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Speaker 2: one day, without giving me any warning, he's going to

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Speaker 2: make a sizzle reel to go out and sell the show.

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Speaker 2: And he said, okay, Doc, what's the show going to

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Speaker 2: be about? And I'm like a little caught short. And

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Speaker 2: I remember saying, I'm going to talk about things that

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Speaker 2: matter to people who care. And I wanted to deliver

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Speaker 2: common sense, usable information to people's homes every day for free.

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Speaker 2: And ir'd argue with that, if that doesn't work, then

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Speaker 2: I was busy when you when you called me, you know,

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Speaker 2: I have and and I followed that formula all along,

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Speaker 2: and when I got when I sat down to write

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Speaker 2: We've Got Issues, it was in reaction to hearing my

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Speaker 2: audience move. I think that's my eleventh book or tenth book.

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Speaker 2: I said I was going to write another book, and

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Speaker 2: then I wrote that one, and it was from listening

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Speaker 2: to them, and they were becoming much more socially conscious.

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Speaker 2: Whereas you know, early on I was focusing on marriage

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Speaker 2: and family and individual psychological functioning and all of those

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Speaker 2: sorts of individual issues. But I saw it changed to

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Speaker 2: start to include things like cyberbullying and predators and online

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Speaker 2: scams and things like that. And then of late I

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Speaker 2: saw him start to really become much more socially conscious

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Speaker 2: about psychosocial issues. And I think it's because they were

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Speaker 2: on the internet all the time. They were reading things that,

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Speaker 2: you know, eight nine years earlier, they just weren't available

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Speaker 2: to read. And that's when I say, I started being

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Speaker 2: aware that like some let's say you had some crazy

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Speaker 2: conspiracy theories some guy in Omaha or something, well, that

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Speaker 2: wouldn't spread very far because he didn't have the ability

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Speaker 2: to reach anyone. But it's estimated right now that there

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Speaker 2: are between five and ten thousand cults acting in the

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Speaker 2: United States of America because they operate online, they solicit

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Speaker 2: money online, they get follows online. Then they might have

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Speaker 2: an annual meeting and recruit people in the real world

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Speaker 2: to come to some compound or whatever. And so I

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Speaker 2: started seeing how people were concerned about what was going

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Speaker 2: on at school and what was being taught at school.

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Speaker 2: Was critical race theory being taught, should it be taught,

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Speaker 2: Should parents be notified if their children were wanting to

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Speaker 2: change their pronouns? And there were pros and cons about that.

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Speaker 2: I think parents know their kids the best and deserve

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Speaker 2: to know what's going on with them. But people react

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Speaker 2: to that, like there's this massive movement in the schools

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Speaker 2: to recruit people children into transgenderism. That's just not true.

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Speaker 2: It is a minuscule number of cases in which is happening,

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Speaker 2: and they talk like there's this huge recruitment. It isn't true.

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Speaker 2: I do think parents should be involved, and those on

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Speaker 2: the other side of the issue say, well, there are

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Speaker 2: a lot of parents who don't react well to that,

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Speaker 2: and so the kids can get kicked to the curb

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Speaker 2: or whatever if they take that home. Well, that's why

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Speaker 2: we have the Department of Child and Family Services, That's

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Speaker 2: why we have these social services to support that if

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Speaker 2: they got some mouth breather parent who doesn't stand by

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Speaker 2: their child or whatever. So there are two sides to

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Speaker 2: the issue. I get that. But they weren't talking about

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Speaker 2: these things before for and now they were, and that's

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Speaker 2: that's what moved me to us. We've got issues. We've

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Speaker 2: got issues and what's going on in the school. We've

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Speaker 2: got issues regarding our economy, and people talk about we

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Speaker 2: have this inequality of income. I think the problem is

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Speaker 2: we have a quality of income. If you look at

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Speaker 2: all the giveaway programs and I hear people talking about

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Speaker 2: they want a quality of outcome, the quality of opportunity.

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Speaker 1: Yeah no, those are things that found me out on

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Speaker 1: the outcome side. Yeah No, it's about the opportunity. We

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Speaker 1: can talk about some of the tax breaks as well,

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Speaker 1: some of the carried interest is on those subsidies as well. Look,

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Speaker 1: there's so much doctor to talk about, and I appreciate

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Speaker 1: the spirit to which you've engaged with me in our eyes.

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Speaker 1: And one of the things I loved about your book,

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Speaker 1: which I did have a chance to read. But more importantly,

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of good life lessons in there. And

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Speaker 1: one of the one of those statements that you made

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Speaker 1: in the book that sort of spoke to me is

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Speaker 1: be who you are on purpose, which is a good

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Speaker 1: way to describe you, this notion of intentionality. But I

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Speaker 1: think that's an important life lesson is to be authentic,

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Speaker 1: learn from don't follow others, have some humility and grace,

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Speaker 1: but stand on your ground, but also recognize we need

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Speaker 1: to find common ground. And I hope we found a

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Speaker 1: little bit today and I appreciate your efforts to try

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Speaker 1: to find more of that with Merritt Street Media.

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Speaker 2: Well, I appreciate having the opportunity to talk about these things.

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Speaker 2: I think, like I say, you and I might be

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Speaker 2: on the different side of certain issues and the same

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Speaker 2: side on certain issues, but I think if people could

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Speaker 2: sit down and have civil conversations like this, I mean,

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Speaker 2: that's what it's all about. To me. I think it's

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Speaker 2: important to do and I'm I'm glad you're doing this podcast.

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Speaker 2: I think people get to hear from you and get

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Speaker 2: to know you better, and I think it's I think

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Speaker 2: people are interested in doing that and in knowing you,

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Speaker 2: and I think it's a courageous thing to do, because

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Speaker 2: when you open up an unscripted conversation like this, that's

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Speaker 2: a that's a courageous thing to do. It's not campaign speak,

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Speaker 2: it's it's just it's just letting people get to know you.

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Speaker 2: And you dodged my question. Are you going to run

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Speaker 2: in twenty.

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Speaker 1: Eight that's face will determine that. But we'll see doctor.

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Speaker 1: I'mse you know better than anybody as a former California residence.

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Speaker 1: I got my hand full in the next year and

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Speaker 1: a half couple of years.

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Speaker 2: You're not ruling it out, I don't.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you're not rolling anything out out about your

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Speaker 1: future either, So we'll leave it at that. I appreciate

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Speaker 1: you spend any time and UH, and I'm very grateful,

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Speaker 1: particularly uh, particularly considering where the heck you are, UH

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Speaker 1: and all the other folks that are there that are

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Speaker 1: buying for your time and attention. So thank you.

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Speaker 2: Anytime, anytime I can spend time with you, I'm I'm

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Speaker 2: proud to do it, on here to do it and UH.

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Speaker 2: I'll be inviting you to be on my podcast soon

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Speaker 2: and we'll talk about that and UH and have you

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Speaker 2: weigh in on some uh some big issues. And I

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Speaker 2: hope we can do I hope we can do this

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Speaker 2: again and do it soon.

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Speaker 1: I look forward to it.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Governor, Thank you best to you