1 00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:08,000 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha. Welcome to Stephan ever 2 00:00:08,039 --> 00:00:19,680 Speaker 1: told your productive I Heeart Radio, Samantha, has there ever 3 00:00:19,760 --> 00:00:22,880 Speaker 1: been a divorce, like a public divorce in your wife 4 00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:25,919 Speaker 1: that really rocked you, really upset you public as in 5 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:31,640 Speaker 1: like famous or I mean either or I was thinking 6 00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:36,200 Speaker 1: famous but famous? Okay. Um. I think there's many times 7 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:39,800 Speaker 1: where I have gotten shocked and saddened because you just 8 00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:43,000 Speaker 1: want them to be forever and I'm trying to think, 9 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:47,920 Speaker 1: who's oh Danny DeVito Rita Parliament. They just seemed like 10 00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:51,919 Speaker 1: forever to me, and it was really sad because they 11 00:00:51,960 --> 00:00:54,360 Speaker 1: just genuinely seem to like each other. Then they divorced. 12 00:00:55,160 --> 00:00:57,760 Speaker 1: I guess everything is okay, there's not. It wasn't a 13 00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:00,240 Speaker 1: big splash. I didn't remember that, but yeah, may be 14 00:01:00,320 --> 00:01:05,679 Speaker 1: really sad. Yeah there. I mean, obviously we don't know 15 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:09,600 Speaker 1: the ins and outs of celebrities lives and how that 16 00:01:09,680 --> 00:01:13,640 Speaker 1: looks on an everyday basis, and it sometimes it just 17 00:01:13,720 --> 00:01:16,480 Speaker 1: feels so different talking about it. I remember when we 18 00:01:16,520 --> 00:01:19,840 Speaker 1: had Um the lawyer on who dealt with you know 19 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:22,560 Speaker 1: these big and I was listening to her talk like 20 00:01:22,720 --> 00:01:26,000 Speaker 1: whoa I've seen her named in a couple of more 21 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:28,240 Speaker 1: divorces since then, and I was like, oh, well, you 22 00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:33,960 Speaker 1: know her. Yeah, I can't think of one that comes 23 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:38,200 Speaker 1: immediately to mind, but there's definitely been couples where I 24 00:01:38,600 --> 00:01:40,959 Speaker 1: have a sort of similar moment of like, oh, they 25 00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:44,640 Speaker 1: seemed happy and I wanted you to be happy. One 26 00:01:44,760 --> 00:01:47,840 Speaker 1: the I think it's a big one. Maybe Prince Charles 27 00:01:47,840 --> 00:01:52,200 Speaker 1: and Prince Diana that made some huge splash. Definitely. I 28 00:01:52,280 --> 00:01:55,120 Speaker 1: know this is probably a little dated, especially, but I 29 00:01:55,200 --> 00:01:58,960 Speaker 1: remember it. I remember being a huge, huge thing and 30 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:02,840 Speaker 1: everybody's losing their mind. Maybe also Tom Cruise and Katie 31 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:07,480 Speaker 1: Holmes because the initial way they got together. Yeah. Well, 32 00:02:07,520 --> 00:02:11,160 Speaker 1: and certainly you know Brad Pitt and Jennifer Aniston and 33 00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:14,280 Speaker 1: then Brad Pitt and Angelina usually yeah, you got the 34 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:18,680 Speaker 1: team Angelina, team Jennifer. Yeah. That is one interesting thing 35 00:02:18,680 --> 00:02:22,679 Speaker 1: about these high profile divorces is you get that kind 36 00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:25,600 Speaker 1: of discourse which is so ridiculous because we're like, wait, 37 00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:29,760 Speaker 1: what about Brad. He's the denominator and this whole thing. 38 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:33,800 Speaker 1: He's the kind of the jerk that is to happen. 39 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:37,720 Speaker 1: But okay, cool, right, Yeah, And this was on my 40 00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:40,480 Speaker 1: mind because I know recently we talked about Bill Melinda 41 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:42,960 Speaker 1: Gates and then it feels like the very next week 42 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:46,600 Speaker 1: it was an outs they're getting divorced, and from as 43 00:02:46,639 --> 00:02:50,960 Speaker 1: someone who doesn't know much about their relationship, I was 44 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:53,720 Speaker 1: still sad to hear that, because you know, you hear 45 00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:56,920 Speaker 1: about the work they've done together, um and the kind 46 00:02:56,960 --> 00:03:00,400 Speaker 1: of nonprofit space and and so I did have a 47 00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:05,680 Speaker 1: kind of paying like, oh for me being the maybe 48 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:08,320 Speaker 1: you can call me Jade or whatever. In my head, 49 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:11,600 Speaker 1: I was like, but how much of that was really Melinda? Sure? 50 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:15,600 Speaker 1: I'm guessing the bigger portion was probably kind of like 51 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:19,399 Speaker 1: the Bezos splash that happened when he and his wife divorced. 52 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:22,399 Speaker 1: His wife became pretty much the philanthropus and just gave 53 00:03:22,400 --> 00:03:24,680 Speaker 1: away all the money. And I love that, and I 54 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:29,240 Speaker 1: feel like not to be too stereotypical in that, but 55 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:34,040 Speaker 1: I'm like, I do wonder sure, and I guess we'll see. Yeah. 56 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:36,320 Speaker 1: I feel like there's been a lot of announcements of 57 00:03:36,320 --> 00:03:40,840 Speaker 1: divorce lately. John Laney just announcing divorce. Do you see 58 00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:44,760 Speaker 1: the statement from the wife, No, I saw a heartbreaking 59 00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:47,920 Speaker 1: Her statement said that she was heartbroken that he asked 60 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:52,680 Speaker 1: for divorce, so absolutely put it in his corner. MM hmm. Yeah. 61 00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:55,280 Speaker 1: I mean, again, we don't know these people and we 62 00:03:55,280 --> 00:03:59,520 Speaker 1: don't to because it is that's a difficult experience. I 63 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:02,120 Speaker 1: can't being public about all these things because again when 64 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:04,440 Speaker 1: we talked about the private level, he's just in a 65 00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:08,720 Speaker 1: small community. Oh, it's a certain ridiculous so being on 66 00:04:08,800 --> 00:04:12,119 Speaker 1: that kind of scale, yeah, I And I was thinking 67 00:04:12,160 --> 00:04:14,120 Speaker 1: about that too when we decided to bring back this 68 00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:16,000 Speaker 1: episode because a lot of it does go into the 69 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:20,479 Speaker 1: conversation of gold digging, which is obviously in a case 70 00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:25,160 Speaker 1: like Bill Willenda Gates, it's way bigger than on a 71 00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:30,880 Speaker 1: regular everyday person. But I've already heard that conversation around um. 72 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:32,520 Speaker 1: And then I was thinking about when I was young 73 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:35,640 Speaker 1: and in my small town, if somebody got a divorced 74 00:04:35,960 --> 00:04:42,120 Speaker 1: that was like right and the failure and heavy quotes 75 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:48,159 Speaker 1: the family even Yeah. Yeah, So there's a lot of 76 00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:54,039 Speaker 1: misguided ideas we have around divorce and women who are 77 00:04:54,120 --> 00:04:58,000 Speaker 1: divorced for sure, and we thought we would bring back 78 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:00,800 Speaker 1: this classic episode to dig into some of the those ideas. 79 00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:07,720 Speaker 1: So please enjoy. Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You 80 00:05:07,960 --> 00:05:15,279 Speaker 1: from how stup works dot com. Hello, and welcome to 81 00:05:15,279 --> 00:05:18,560 Speaker 1: the podcast. I'm Caroline and I'm Kristin, and this week 82 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:21,400 Speaker 1: krist and I are talking about a couple of different 83 00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:25,160 Speaker 1: groups of women, but all of them are sort of 84 00:05:25,480 --> 00:05:32,760 Speaker 1: maligned and mistrusted wives. Yeah, there's definitely stigma and sctereotype 85 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:39,400 Speaker 1: surrounding both women who go through divorces, particularly first wives 86 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:44,080 Speaker 1: and particularly first wives who are in very wealthy unions, 87 00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:48,760 Speaker 1: and then trophy wives. Yeah, so two groups of women 88 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:52,479 Speaker 1: that people are sort of suspicious of, to say the least. Um. 89 00:05:52,520 --> 00:05:55,320 Speaker 1: But yeah, without further ado, let's let's dive into talking 90 00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:59,920 Speaker 1: about the divorcee. The woman that we tend to think 91 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:04,680 Speaker 1: of as older. Probably she's wealthy, she's swilling a martini 92 00:06:05,520 --> 00:06:09,719 Speaker 1: holding a little dog, she's she's probably a real housewife, honestly, 93 00:06:09,920 --> 00:06:13,840 Speaker 1: or she's a struggling single mom. Yeah, honestly, that is 94 00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:20,120 Speaker 1: the more accurate representation of a divorce in the US. Well, 95 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:23,080 Speaker 1: and when it comes to divorce, it's no big surprise 96 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:28,760 Speaker 1: that America is pretty divorced happy. According to statistics from 97 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:34,599 Speaker 1: January two thousand eleven, we have the highest divorce rate 98 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:40,120 Speaker 1: really in the Western hemisphere. Uh, there were three points 99 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:44,600 Speaker 1: seven divorces per one thousand people, which is higher than 100 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:48,600 Speaker 1: the average EU country, which is at two point one 101 00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:51,279 Speaker 1: divorces per one thousand people. So we get married all 102 00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:53,360 Speaker 1: the time in the US and then we get divorced 103 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:55,600 Speaker 1: all the time of the US, but the divorce rate 104 00:06:55,640 --> 00:06:58,760 Speaker 1: is not at an all time high and actually dropped. Yeah, 105 00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:01,120 Speaker 1: it's it's sort of been kind of plateauing for the 106 00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:04,279 Speaker 1: past several years. And I don't know. I mean, people 107 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:07,359 Speaker 1: fret so much about our divorce rate in America, but 108 00:07:07,440 --> 00:07:10,640 Speaker 1: I also think that maybe that's a good sign that 109 00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:13,160 Speaker 1: both our marriage and divorce rates are really high. People 110 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:17,720 Speaker 1: are seeking happiness, except that divorce can have bad effects 111 00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:21,000 Speaker 1: on families. So anyway, like Kristen said, the divorce rate 112 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:23,760 Speaker 1: has actually gone down a little in the past twenty years. 113 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:27,040 Speaker 1: But let's break it down further. From nineteen sixty to 114 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:30,360 Speaker 1: two thousand and eight, the share of currently divorced or 115 00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:35,080 Speaker 1: separated Americans jumped from five percent to fourteen percent. Divorce 116 00:07:35,120 --> 00:07:38,720 Speaker 1: itself hit an all time high background the late seventies 117 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:42,760 Speaker 1: and early eighties after rising sharply in the sixties and seventies. 118 00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:45,040 Speaker 1: So it's interesting to think about the context of the time, 119 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:48,360 Speaker 1: what's going on socially in our country. We're getting women's 120 00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:51,280 Speaker 1: lib We're getting civil rights movements, were getting birth control, 121 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 1: and then suddenly people are like, I think I'm gonna go. Yeah, 122 00:07:56,840 --> 00:08:01,800 Speaker 1: divorce becomes easier in a way or legally speaking. And 123 00:08:02,240 --> 00:08:05,160 Speaker 1: one of the most fascinating sources that we ran across 124 00:08:05,640 --> 00:08:09,680 Speaker 1: was a nineteen sixty two Harper's bizarre article about the 125 00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:16,040 Speaker 1: young divorcee and tracks her path from her first marriage 126 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:20,200 Speaker 1: and having kids, then getting divorced and dealing with her 127 00:08:20,240 --> 00:08:24,520 Speaker 1: social life and personal life post divorce, and then leading 128 00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:28,760 Speaker 1: up to remarriage because that at the time seems like 129 00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:33,000 Speaker 1: the only option for her. Yeah, it was super It 130 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:36,120 Speaker 1: was an interesting, you know, faux profile of a woman, 131 00:08:36,320 --> 00:08:39,199 Speaker 1: and it it noted the article noted the uptick and 132 00:08:39,280 --> 00:08:42,720 Speaker 1: divorce in the country, and it really sort of fretted 133 00:08:42,760 --> 00:08:46,240 Speaker 1: about the weird limbo that divorced women find themselves in 134 00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:51,000 Speaker 1: because it didn't speak super negatively about the issue of 135 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:53,520 Speaker 1: a woman being independent. I mean, it was kind of 136 00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:55,719 Speaker 1: like poo pooing it, but it wasn't saying that, oh, 137 00:08:55,760 --> 00:08:58,480 Speaker 1: a divorced woman is a terrible person. But then it 138 00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:02,520 Speaker 1: was sort of worried about the issue shoes of sex. Yeah, 139 00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:05,680 Speaker 1: I mean, because if a divorced woman has kids. Obviously 140 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:10,240 Speaker 1: she has had sex before, so it's there. There's not 141 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:14,120 Speaker 1: the chastity kind of crown for her to wear around, right, 142 00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:17,720 Speaker 1: And the article quoted a divorce attorney who had watched 143 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:21,160 Speaker 1: as his clients over the years morphed from older men 144 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:25,120 Speaker 1: who were leaving their wives for younger women into middle 145 00:09:25,160 --> 00:09:28,600 Speaker 1: aged women who just wanted out despite the guilt they 146 00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:32,040 Speaker 1: might feel. And also quote being felt by everyone around 147 00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:37,599 Speaker 1: her to be selfish and irresponsible at the least seriously neurotic. 148 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:40,720 Speaker 1: And reading this article, Caroline, especially since it came out 149 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:44,040 Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty two, made me think so much about 150 00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:48,920 Speaker 1: Mad Men and Betty Draper getting divorced from Don Draper 151 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:52,280 Speaker 1: and immediately getting remarried, And I was trying to think 152 00:09:52,280 --> 00:09:56,040 Speaker 1: in the context of the show whether there were similar 153 00:09:56,080 --> 00:09:58,680 Speaker 1: echoes of this Harper's bizarre article, but at least as 154 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:01,880 Speaker 1: it was portrayed in the show. She segues so quickly 155 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:06,920 Speaker 1: into her second marriage and it's too well to do politician, 156 00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:10,480 Speaker 1: and she's a beautiful woman, so she's immediately kind of 157 00:10:10,520 --> 00:10:15,000 Speaker 1: set back up as an esteemed wife and mother and 158 00:10:15,120 --> 00:10:19,760 Speaker 1: not having to go through that divorce efe is Yeah, well, 159 00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:23,839 Speaker 1: this article looked at sort of why a wife would 160 00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:26,559 Speaker 1: just walk away from a husband. You've got a family, 161 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:29,080 Speaker 1: you've got a husband, what could possibly be wrong? And 162 00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:31,400 Speaker 1: they spell it out. They say that it has everything 163 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:37,680 Speaker 1: to do with sex, sexual incompatibility, sexual limitations, simply looking 164 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:40,760 Speaker 1: beyond her husband for the first time, trying to escape 165 00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:45,120 Speaker 1: the quote malaise of life, and asking herself in general, 166 00:10:45,559 --> 00:10:48,160 Speaker 1: is this all there's going to be forever? And they 167 00:10:48,200 --> 00:10:50,320 Speaker 1: write about it as if this is the first time 168 00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:53,920 Speaker 1: that women are having these thoughts at all, that they're 169 00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:56,800 Speaker 1: finally feeling the freedom to be like, oh wait, I'm 170 00:10:56,800 --> 00:10:59,760 Speaker 1: not satisfied, not that that freedom to think that is 171 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:01,800 Speaker 1: not sincerely good. They do kind of frame it in 172 00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:04,720 Speaker 1: a way of like, why why isn't this good enough 173 00:11:04,720 --> 00:11:07,440 Speaker 1: for you? Well, and there seems to be this period 174 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:12,439 Speaker 1: post divorce that this young divorce in nineteen sixty two 175 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:17,599 Speaker 1: really enjoys her single hood. She doesn't want to say 176 00:11:17,640 --> 00:11:21,080 Speaker 1: that the loss of her marriage, the divorce, having to 177 00:11:21,120 --> 00:11:24,079 Speaker 1: take care of her children as a single mom are tragic, 178 00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:26,600 Speaker 1: and she doesn't want to ask anyone's forgiveness, and she 179 00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:30,000 Speaker 1: might in a way feel a little bit entitled to 180 00:11:30,160 --> 00:11:33,680 Speaker 1: some admiration. But then she quickly notices that her married 181 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:37,040 Speaker 1: friends disappear and might this jumped out to me, and 182 00:11:37,120 --> 00:11:40,680 Speaker 1: might be hanging out with her ex husband because she 183 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:44,199 Speaker 1: is more of a threat, she realizes, to the fabric 184 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:46,720 Speaker 1: of society, because she is a woman who will fully 185 00:11:46,840 --> 00:11:51,000 Speaker 1: chooses to step away from the safety and security of 186 00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:55,480 Speaker 1: being a suburban wife and mother. Yeah, and then it 187 00:11:55,520 --> 00:11:58,599 Speaker 1: paints this sort of grim picture of this woman, this 188 00:11:58,760 --> 00:12:03,080 Speaker 1: divorce who's going on dates where maybe she chooses to 189 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:05,240 Speaker 1: go home with the man, or maybe she just has 190 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:07,360 Speaker 1: to sit there through the whole dinner and figure out 191 00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:09,520 Speaker 1: a safe way to tell him she doesn't want to 192 00:12:09,559 --> 00:12:11,679 Speaker 1: go home with him. But so then they end up 193 00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:14,080 Speaker 1: describing the men that she's going on dates with. These 194 00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:19,600 Speaker 1: either fellow divorced people or no longer young bachelors, and 195 00:12:19,640 --> 00:12:23,680 Speaker 1: they write, these men are vast consumers of female companionship, 196 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:27,240 Speaker 1: being as they are inhabitants of a world that makes 197 00:12:27,240 --> 00:12:30,080 Speaker 1: it somehow unpleasant for people to do such things as 198 00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:34,200 Speaker 1: eden restaurants, attend the theater, or even arrive at parties alone. 199 00:12:34,880 --> 00:12:38,040 Speaker 1: And they seem to consume women, either by not being 200 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:40,200 Speaker 1: pleased with them or by marrying them. At a rate 201 00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:44,040 Speaker 1: much faster than women of suitable age and circumstance can 202 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:46,520 Speaker 1: be produced. So then that leads us into a whole 203 00:12:46,520 --> 00:12:50,400 Speaker 1: conversation in this article about people sort of feeling like 204 00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:52,440 Speaker 1: they're at the end of their rope and they've just 205 00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:55,839 Speaker 1: got to remarry or find someone who can fill that gap, 206 00:12:55,920 --> 00:12:59,040 Speaker 1: because that's just what you do. Yeah, And and because 207 00:12:59,080 --> 00:13:03,440 Speaker 1: of that, they usually end up remarrying for factors like 208 00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:08,320 Speaker 1: the convenience that well why not, the companionship factor, and 209 00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:12,319 Speaker 1: also it making more economic sense, and maybe even for 210 00:13:12,600 --> 00:13:17,360 Speaker 1: sex without judgment. Yeah. Really, it was a really interesting article. 211 00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:20,520 Speaker 1: It was a really interesting snapshot into this period in 212 00:13:20,559 --> 00:13:24,800 Speaker 1: time when divorce was skyrocketing. But let's move back to 213 00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:29,319 Speaker 1: some Pew Research Center statistics looking at what does actually 214 00:13:29,320 --> 00:13:32,960 Speaker 1: increase the risk of divorce beyond just that malaise of 215 00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:37,559 Speaker 1: life trying to escape it, and Pew lists having less education, 216 00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:43,319 Speaker 1: marrying younger, just being younger and marrying during the seventies 217 00:13:44,440 --> 00:13:47,560 Speaker 1: is in itself a factor. Well, thankfully, Caroline, we're in 218 00:13:47,559 --> 00:13:50,840 Speaker 1: the clear. If we were to get married anytime, yes, 219 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:52,920 Speaker 1: I would have been negative a couple of years old. 220 00:13:53,160 --> 00:13:56,120 Speaker 1: And so when you look at that age factor, men's 221 00:13:56,240 --> 00:13:59,240 Speaker 1: median age a divorce is a little it's almost thirty 222 00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:02,040 Speaker 1: two years old, and for women it's just about twenty 223 00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:04,480 Speaker 1: nine and a half. Oh man, we're we we should 224 00:14:04,520 --> 00:14:07,720 Speaker 1: have gone through our first divorces, Caroline. I know we divorced, 225 00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:10,360 Speaker 1: and I feel like, and correct me if I'm wrong 226 00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:11,840 Speaker 1: or if I'm just making this up, but I feel 227 00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:14,880 Speaker 1: like the stereotype of a divorcee is that she's she's 228 00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:18,640 Speaker 1: much older and that she's been abandoned for a younger woman. 229 00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:23,359 Speaker 1: But only about eleven percent of women six up are divorced. 230 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:26,840 Speaker 1: So well, yeah, because by that point probably if you 231 00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:30,640 Speaker 1: stuck it out, then you're like, well, we've been together 232 00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:34,000 Speaker 1: for thirty years, might as well make it fifty. Go 233 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:37,640 Speaker 1: for it. Um. I will say one thing though, about 234 00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:40,240 Speaker 1: the rate of divorce kind of leveling off in recent 235 00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:43,400 Speaker 1: years too. It's not so much because we've fallen in 236 00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:48,040 Speaker 1: love more and more effectively, but largely because of the recession, 237 00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:50,960 Speaker 1: because we didn't have money to divorce, so we stuck together. 238 00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:54,080 Speaker 1: So people think that we will soon be seeing more 239 00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:57,880 Speaker 1: of an uptick and divorce if we haven't already. But 240 00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:00,360 Speaker 1: with that uptick and divorce, the question is will we 241 00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:04,680 Speaker 1: see an uptick in this divorce stereotype which does feel 242 00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:08,280 Speaker 1: very mad Men era when you start reading about it, 243 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:12,440 Speaker 1: thinking about women swelling. Martini's not so much the small 244 00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:16,880 Speaker 1: dogs thing, but I am thinking of Roger Sterling's divorced. Sorry, 245 00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:21,200 Speaker 1: I've been catching up on Mattman's lately. But Roger Sterling 246 00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:25,200 Speaker 1: an older guy. He's probably in his fifties early sixties. 247 00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:27,800 Speaker 1: He's a silver fox and he divorces his wife, who 248 00:15:27,920 --> 00:15:34,400 Speaker 1: is the older divorce, classic wealthy Manhattan stereotype. Oh yeah, 249 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:37,440 Speaker 1: I was definitely interested in going into this episode and 250 00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:43,160 Speaker 1: finding out how true the stereotype is. And basically, spoiler, 251 00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:48,080 Speaker 1: what we uncovered is that the stereotype of this older, 252 00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:53,360 Speaker 1: wealthy woman who's perhaps a little bit gold digging, it's 253 00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:57,280 Speaker 1: only really, it only really crops up among the wealthy. 254 00:15:57,360 --> 00:16:00,640 Speaker 1: It's not like your average divorce is always going to 255 00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:04,760 Speaker 1: be gold digging, you know, with the small dog and everything. Um, 256 00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:07,840 Speaker 1: And there's one example that's stuck out in the news 257 00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:13,000 Speaker 1: from January, uh that sort of fit into this ugly 258 00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:16,000 Speaker 1: stereotype that we have culturally. This is coming from the 259 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:18,800 Speaker 1: New York Posts, so you know, they had nothing nice 260 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:22,360 Speaker 1: to say. About the people involved. But Sue and Arnold's 261 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:26,600 Speaker 1: fifty six and her ex husband, oil tycoon Harold Ham 262 00:16:26,920 --> 00:16:29,480 Speaker 1: were married for twenty six years they got a divorce. 263 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:33,960 Speaker 1: He writes her a check for more than nine and 264 00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:37,160 Speaker 1: seventy four million dollars after paying her more than twenty 265 00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:41,280 Speaker 1: million during their actual divorce proceedings, and the New York 266 00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:44,920 Speaker 1: Post went crazy, frothing at the mouth over the fact 267 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:49,040 Speaker 1: that Sue Anne Arnold turned down the check for being 268 00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:52,440 Speaker 1: too little, and they dubbed her angry. They definitely painted 269 00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:56,040 Speaker 1: her as the typical angry gold digging divorce. Of course, 270 00:16:56,040 --> 00:16:59,360 Speaker 1: her lawyers clarified that, like Well, accepting this check would 271 00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:02,720 Speaker 1: actually risk the dismissal of her appeal that is in court, 272 00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:07,919 Speaker 1: the appeal having granted her million dollars. So there's a 273 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:12,080 Speaker 1: lot of money at play in these sort of big name, 274 00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:16,080 Speaker 1: top of the heat divorce proceedings. Well in the media 275 00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:23,240 Speaker 1: love either uh super wealthy or celebrity divorce, and usually 276 00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:27,160 Speaker 1: the women in these stories are painted as, like you said, 277 00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:29,320 Speaker 1: either a little bit gold digging who are trying to 278 00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:32,399 Speaker 1: grasp onto every penny in every vacation house they can 279 00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:37,720 Speaker 1: possibly sink their manicured claws into or their objects to 280 00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:40,800 Speaker 1: be pitied because they lost their looks and then their 281 00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:46,080 Speaker 1: husbands moved on to someone younger, as in the case 282 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:50,600 Speaker 1: of say a Carol McCain, Senator John McCain's first wife, 283 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:55,560 Speaker 1: who in another grain of salt quote unquote news story 284 00:17:55,680 --> 00:18:00,680 Speaker 1: in the Daily Mail profiling the dissolving of air marriage 285 00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:06,040 Speaker 1: after McCain came back from the Vietnam War and ended 286 00:18:06,119 --> 00:18:09,720 Speaker 1: up leaving her for his now wife, Cindy McCain. And 287 00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:12,600 Speaker 1: was there an overlap in the marriage, Yes, there was. 288 00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:17,680 Speaker 1: And while McCain was in the Hanoi Hilton in Vietnam, 289 00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:20,560 Speaker 1: Carol McCain, who they report and used to be a 290 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:24,360 Speaker 1: beautiful swimsuit model, she was in this horrific car accident 291 00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:26,920 Speaker 1: and it disfigured her and it was basically like, oh 292 00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:31,399 Speaker 1: and now she you know, she wasn't attractive enough, essentially, 293 00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:34,560 Speaker 1: and they did painted as a kind of a disgusting 294 00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:38,200 Speaker 1: story on his end, But it always fits into these 295 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:42,239 Speaker 1: kinds of narratives are very formulaic in the way that 296 00:18:42,320 --> 00:18:47,560 Speaker 1: they are told in such kinds of similarly salacious details. Yeah, 297 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:51,159 Speaker 1: and in addition to the whole Carol McCain being left 298 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:54,640 Speaker 1: behind by her ex. We've got the Jane Hawking narrative. 299 00:18:55,320 --> 00:18:57,760 Speaker 1: She was left by Stephen Hawking, he left her for 300 00:18:57,880 --> 00:19:02,680 Speaker 1: his nurse. And the guard In newspaper doesn't treat Jane 301 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:05,480 Speaker 1: Hawking in their story about her nearly as badly as 302 00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:08,280 Speaker 1: the Daily Mail treated McCain, but they still write about 303 00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:11,720 Speaker 1: her life with Hawking. Quote has left her a legacy 304 00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:16,679 Speaker 1: of deep regret and though she tries to hide it, bitterness. Yeah. 305 00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:20,520 Speaker 1: I mean, both of these stories were highly sympathetic to 306 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:25,840 Speaker 1: these women because both of them were left for other women. 307 00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:28,480 Speaker 1: And I gotta say, Okay, I have not seen a 308 00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:33,080 Speaker 1: theory of everything. The Stephen Hawking biopic that got all 309 00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:37,040 Speaker 1: the Oscar attention, But during the Oscars and throughout all 310 00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:39,399 Speaker 1: of the publicity for that film, you know that that 311 00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:42,600 Speaker 1: is about Jane and Stephen Hawking's early romance. I could 312 00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:45,840 Speaker 1: only think, Dear God, are we really creating this? I mean, 313 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:48,879 Speaker 1: there's this love story, but I'm just curious whether it 314 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:53,640 Speaker 1: includes the not so romantic ending of that marriage. I mean, 315 00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:56,480 Speaker 1: and even within the marriage while it was still intact, 316 00:19:56,920 --> 00:20:02,280 Speaker 1: she talks about how their relationship was not a perfect 317 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:06,560 Speaker 1: one at all. But you know, reality check again, no 318 00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:11,240 Speaker 1: marriage is perfect. What I know, party pooper aller talk 319 00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:14,959 Speaker 1: about a spoiler jeez um, Well yeah, I mean speaking 320 00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:20,159 Speaker 1: of reality checks, this whole wealthy couple news story or 321 00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:23,800 Speaker 1: the narrative that we're so used to hearing about divorces 322 00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:28,240 Speaker 1: really hides the reality that, hey, it's not typically the 323 00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:32,720 Speaker 1: woman who becomes super wealthy after a divorce. Men become 324 00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:36,480 Speaker 1: richer by about a third after divorce and their earning 325 00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:40,760 Speaker 1: potential does not get dinged because of it, while women 326 00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:44,000 Speaker 1: tend to lose more than a fifth of their income. 327 00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:47,920 Speaker 1: And also typically if women end up getting custody of 328 00:20:47,960 --> 00:20:52,000 Speaker 1: the kids, they give up reaching their full earning potential 329 00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:54,280 Speaker 1: to care for them. And plus it's hard to make 330 00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:57,280 Speaker 1: up for those lost years of not working well married. 331 00:20:57,400 --> 00:21:00,239 Speaker 1: So while you know, in these wealthy marriages, a man 332 00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:04,480 Speaker 1: might have kept working, kept earning, kept moving at that ladder, 333 00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:07,880 Speaker 1: and the woman didn't work. Then if she's suddenly divorced 334 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:09,600 Speaker 1: and she has to re enter the workforce, she has 335 00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:12,320 Speaker 1: a lot of time that's left out on her resume. 336 00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:14,639 Speaker 1: And that was one thing too that jumped out to 337 00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:18,440 Speaker 1: me in that nineteen six Harper's bizarre piece The Sympathy 338 00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:22,440 Speaker 1: with which the author notes that the young deforce has 339 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:25,840 Speaker 1: to go back to work. He's like, well, and then 340 00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:29,359 Speaker 1: there's a whole job thing. Yeah, I mean it talks. 341 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:31,600 Speaker 1: It talks about how this woman, and in the beginning 342 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:34,080 Speaker 1: of her marriage, was so eager to to join the 343 00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:37,440 Speaker 1: workforce to help out. But I'll thank god once once 344 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:39,920 Speaker 1: the husband got on a stable professional footing, she could 345 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:42,640 Speaker 1: get out of there. Well. And even not to say 346 00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:46,959 Speaker 1: that that all of these divorce days don't have jobs before, 347 00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:51,280 Speaker 1: but they might simply, especially in these wealthy relationships, their 348 00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:54,600 Speaker 1: career was probably taking a back seat in whatever way 349 00:21:54,680 --> 00:22:00,640 Speaker 1: that meant um to their husband's. And also too quick 350 00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:04,239 Speaker 1: acknowledgment that this is a straight up pun had her 351 00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:08,800 Speaker 1: enormative conversation right now, this is still I mean, because 352 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:12,720 Speaker 1: gay marriage is not. It has not been around legally 353 00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:17,360 Speaker 1: long enough for us to even have built these stereotypes 354 00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:21,480 Speaker 1: around gay deporsys. Yeah, exactly. Well, I mean, if you 355 00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:23,840 Speaker 1: want to talk about a wife's career taking a backseat 356 00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:27,000 Speaker 1: to a husband's, just look no further than the relationship 357 00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:30,359 Speaker 1: between Elon and Justine Musk. And of course, Elon Musk 358 00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:34,760 Speaker 1: is the PayPal founder who made a bajillion dollars, and 359 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:38,840 Speaker 1: Justine read a column from Marie Claire back in, and 360 00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:41,800 Speaker 1: her narrative is one that's pretty familiar to anyone who's 361 00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:45,280 Speaker 1: ever you know, watched a movie or seen a soap opera. 362 00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:50,000 Speaker 1: Her wealthy, controlling husband leaves her, and she's a writer 363 00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:54,800 Speaker 1: turned in her words, trophy wife, and she had loved 364 00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:57,719 Speaker 1: books and reading and wanted to really shape and nurture 365 00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:01,000 Speaker 1: her writing career. And her husband was like, no, no, 366 00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:05,120 Speaker 1: you're not um and anyway, so he leaves his trophy 367 00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:09,800 Speaker 1: wife and children in five children for a super young 368 00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:15,480 Speaker 1: British actress whom he has since divorced and remarried. Um. 369 00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:17,959 Speaker 1: But fortunately Justine Musk claims that she and the new 370 00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:21,800 Speaker 1: wife actually get along. Yeah, I mean, and that adds 371 00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:25,240 Speaker 1: a little bit of nuance reality nuance to this whole 372 00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:28,440 Speaker 1: kind of trophy narrative as well, because oh, we don't 373 00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:31,920 Speaker 1: have to start yet another stereotypical narrative about two women 374 00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:36,399 Speaker 1: quote unquote catfighting over the quote unquote possession of a 375 00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:39,160 Speaker 1: quote unquote man. Okay, no quote unquote around the man. 376 00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:42,840 Speaker 1: But the thing is too them getting along might not 377 00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:46,520 Speaker 1: matter so much because this jumped out to me, divorce 378 00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:51,920 Speaker 1: rates for second marriages are higher than for first marriages, 379 00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:56,240 Speaker 1: and the biggest reason why kids not getting along with 380 00:23:56,320 --> 00:24:00,000 Speaker 1: their parents new love interest blame it on those kids, 381 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:04,879 Speaker 1: does Yeah, anybody who has seen down Nabby knows that 382 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:07,520 Speaker 1: even when the children are adults, that can really interfere 383 00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:10,560 Speaker 1: with a new love match. I won't say anymore. I 384 00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:12,359 Speaker 1: don't know what that means. I can only make Madmin 385 00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:15,879 Speaker 1: references right now, I think, and I can't make Madmin references, 386 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:19,040 Speaker 1: so it works out perfectly. But one thing that's not 387 00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:23,399 Speaker 1: really part of the popular stereotypes about divorces is the 388 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:26,000 Speaker 1: fact that women tend to be the ones who file 389 00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:29,440 Speaker 1: for divorce or separation first. And we're going to talk 390 00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:38,560 Speaker 1: about that more in detail in just a second. So 391 00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:40,399 Speaker 1: in the first half of the podcast, we're talking a 392 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:46,160 Speaker 1: lot about this usually wealthier divorce a stereotype and how 393 00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:49,280 Speaker 1: she has been largely stigmatized in a lot of ways, 394 00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:53,320 Speaker 1: and at least starting in the nineteen sixties, when divorce 395 00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:56,199 Speaker 1: was really on the rise, was presented with just the 396 00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:59,879 Speaker 1: option of remarriage. So we were trying to add some 397 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:04,560 Speaker 1: nuance to that and ground it more in reality. And 398 00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:07,119 Speaker 1: the next reality we want to talk about is how 399 00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:14,640 Speaker 1: women statistically are likelier to file for divorce compared to husbands. 400 00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:17,080 Speaker 1: And this is a little bit of a dated study, 401 00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:22,880 Speaker 1: but nonetheless as a fabulous title coming from two thousand 402 00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:27,160 Speaker 1: Margaret f. Brnnigg's and Douglas w Allen's these boots are 403 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:31,720 Speaker 1: made for walking? Why most divorce filers are women? Yeah, 404 00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:34,719 Speaker 1: so we have this assumption that because of post divorce 405 00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:37,520 Speaker 1: financial and social hardship, men end up being the ones 406 00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:41,800 Speaker 1: to instigate the divorce in most cases. After all, women's 407 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:45,840 Speaker 1: standard of living usually declines, and as she ages, especially 408 00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:49,120 Speaker 1: if she has kids, her quote unquote market value as 409 00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:53,880 Speaker 1: a marriage prospect decreases, while the husband's market value increases. 410 00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:58,119 Speaker 1: But the reality is a little different. The proportion of 411 00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:01,800 Speaker 1: wife file cases hovers around two thirds, and a large 412 00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:05,000 Speaker 1: portion of those women say that they're happier post divorce 413 00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:08,040 Speaker 1: because of this sense of relief if they're getting out 414 00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:11,120 Speaker 1: of a bad situation. Uh. And women are also more 415 00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:14,520 Speaker 1: likely to instigate a separation, not just a divorce. And 416 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:17,760 Speaker 1: looking at why this is, there are a couple different 417 00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:20,920 Speaker 1: reasons in this study. It partly has to do with 418 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:25,440 Speaker 1: assuring their innocence in any divorce proceedings to possibly secure 419 00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:29,320 Speaker 1: custody or support rights. Maybe it's more convenient for them 420 00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:32,960 Speaker 1: to file, but they also might be escaping a cruel 421 00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:37,760 Speaker 1: or exploitative situation. And also, though Brinnigan Allen right that 422 00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:41,200 Speaker 1: filing behavior is driven by self interest at the time 423 00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:45,480 Speaker 1: of divorce, such as when there are marital assets that 424 00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:49,679 Speaker 1: can be appropriated, and also again when they're being exploited 425 00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:52,679 Speaker 1: within the marriage, like when the other person violates the 426 00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:57,359 Speaker 1: marriage contract somehow, such as running around or being a 427 00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:01,320 Speaker 1: super controlling, just being a really really wells you spouse 428 00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:04,240 Speaker 1: in one way or another. And then, of course, when 429 00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:08,080 Speaker 1: it comes to custody, who gets the kids is by 430 00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:12,639 Speaker 1: far the most important component in deciding who files, and 431 00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:16,840 Speaker 1: usually because women are the primary caregivers, they're going to 432 00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:20,200 Speaker 1: be the ones to step in first and probably get 433 00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:26,280 Speaker 1: primary custody for those kids. But Brinnigan Allan also predict 434 00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:31,200 Speaker 1: that as men and women's labor force income becomes more 435 00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:35,240 Speaker 1: nearly equal, they rte In other words, as things like 436 00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:39,440 Speaker 1: the gender wage gap clothes and women continue entering the workforce, 437 00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:45,960 Speaker 1: the difference in filing rates should disappear, so equal opportunity 438 00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:49,280 Speaker 1: divorce filings for all Yeah, and so it seems like 439 00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:53,639 Speaker 1: this whole women filing first thing is less about gold digging, 440 00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:56,280 Speaker 1: our stereotype about gold digging and just wanting to get 441 00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:58,760 Speaker 1: the money, and really more about for a lot of 442 00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:01,600 Speaker 1: women being able to har a out a secure place 443 00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:05,639 Speaker 1: after leaving a bad situation, trying to leave possibly a 444 00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:09,360 Speaker 1: bad marriage, make sure that they have custody of the kids, 445 00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:14,320 Speaker 1: less about trying to completely deplete their ex husband's bank account. 446 00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:18,480 Speaker 1: But the thing is, there's also this this blame on 447 00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:22,879 Speaker 1: women a lot of times for heterosexual marriages falling apart, 448 00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:26,040 Speaker 1: whether they're the ones who filed or not, and sometimes 449 00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:31,359 Speaker 1: whether the spouse was violating that marital contract or not. 450 00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:34,679 Speaker 1: And this was something that Lynn Stewart Paramore at Alternate 451 00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:39,760 Speaker 1: was railing against in response to this blog post she 452 00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:41,840 Speaker 1: had read. I think it was featured on the Huffington's 453 00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:46,320 Speaker 1: Post homepage about five ways that women were failing their 454 00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:50,200 Speaker 1: marriages and basically saying, you know what, women, you are 455 00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:54,880 Speaker 1: in charge of creating an emotionally safe environment, making sure 456 00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:58,200 Speaker 1: that sex is happening on the rags, and if you're 457 00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:01,320 Speaker 1: not doing these kinds of things and really maintaining the 458 00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:06,960 Speaker 1: emotional health of your marriage. Well, it's on you because 459 00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:11,760 Speaker 1: the guy's job is to make the money. They're pragmatic 460 00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:15,479 Speaker 1: their logic. They're thinking about numbers and baseball. They're not 461 00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:20,400 Speaker 1: thinking about, you know, emotional nurturance, which is really just 462 00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:24,040 Speaker 1: an insult to everybody across the board, and of course 463 00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:29,760 Speaker 1: plays into very antiquated gender stereotypes. Yeah, and and Paramore 464 00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:33,120 Speaker 1: says that these, all of these stereotypes about our behavior 465 00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:36,720 Speaker 1: obscure the driving forces that can split a marriage. And 466 00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:39,640 Speaker 1: she says that all of this finger wagging at women 467 00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:42,960 Speaker 1: usually comes along with the off sided statistic that we 468 00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:46,560 Speaker 1: also cited that women file for divorce twice as often 469 00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:49,880 Speaker 1: as men. And what we hear less often Paramore rights 470 00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:53,640 Speaker 1: is straight talk about the social and economic factors that 471 00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:57,840 Speaker 1: drive the engine of divorce. The fact is that college 472 00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:00,520 Speaker 1: educated people are more likely to stay together there and 473 00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:02,480 Speaker 1: that there's a higher risk of divorce for people with 474 00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:06,160 Speaker 1: lower incomes and less education. And she goes on to 475 00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:08,320 Speaker 1: say that when people are struggling to pay the rent 476 00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:10,920 Speaker 1: and keep a roof over their heads, the marriage problem 477 00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:16,240 Speaker 1: isn't likely to be some kind of deficiency in managing intimacy. 478 00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:19,680 Speaker 1: The sole thing, the glue that holds the marriage or 479 00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:23,400 Speaker 1: any type of relationship together is not purely just intimacy 480 00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:25,840 Speaker 1: or how often you're getting laid. All those sex is 481 00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:28,360 Speaker 1: a huge reason for a lot of divorces to happen. 482 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:31,440 Speaker 1: There's so much more to it. And the fact that 483 00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:33,400 Speaker 1: the more money you have and the older you are, 484 00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:35,680 Speaker 1: the less likely you are to get divorced. That just 485 00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:38,200 Speaker 1: means that there are other things that we need to 486 00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:41,560 Speaker 1: dig into here about the reasons behind marriage is breaking up? Yeah, 487 00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:44,120 Speaker 1: Because she goes on to site this u c L 488 00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:47,920 Speaker 1: a study about how low income versus high income study 489 00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:52,240 Speaker 1: respondents held similar romantic standards and had similar kinds of 490 00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:56,360 Speaker 1: problems in relationships, and that is no big surprise. But 491 00:30:57,160 --> 00:31:00,440 Speaker 1: the low income respondents were likelier to report that their 492 00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:04,040 Speaker 1: relationships for being affected by economic and social issues like 493 00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:08,480 Speaker 1: financial struggles, alcohol and drug abuse, etcetera. So when you 494 00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:13,480 Speaker 1: have more resources, it can make it easier to cope 495 00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:17,240 Speaker 1: with those relationship stressors that usually put a strain on 496 00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:20,400 Speaker 1: any kind of marriage. Because and I can attest to this, 497 00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:25,040 Speaker 1: if you're worried about money, you add something else to 498 00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:29,120 Speaker 1: that and it just everything is just even more intensified. 499 00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:32,720 Speaker 1: And that's just finance. Yeah, yeah, I mean, especially if 500 00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:36,320 Speaker 1: somebody or both people are working multiple jobs, maybe somebody 501 00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:39,760 Speaker 1: doesn't have health benefits. I mean, there's so many things 502 00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:42,080 Speaker 1: that are rooted in money that can put so much 503 00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:44,400 Speaker 1: strain on a relationship. Well, and that would probably go 504 00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:47,080 Speaker 1: into the age factor as well in terms of people 505 00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:49,880 Speaker 1: who marry younger are likelier to get divorced, because I 506 00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:53,400 Speaker 1: think that also speaks to probably your earning potential at 507 00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:55,400 Speaker 1: the time when you get married, but also the kinds 508 00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:57,840 Speaker 1: of tools that you might be bringing in terms of 509 00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:04,440 Speaker 1: life experience into conflict resolution. Thinking about myself getting married 510 00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:08,440 Speaker 1: when I was twenty two, no, I would be divorced. 511 00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:12,760 Speaker 1: I would absolutely be divorced. Oh yeah, it is horrifying 512 00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:17,040 Speaker 1: to think about. I So I started going to therapy 513 00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:20,360 Speaker 1: almost a year ago and it has changed my life. 514 00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:23,440 Speaker 1: Would I say that everybody should go to therapy, Yes, 515 00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:27,360 Speaker 1: I would, But it has been so helpful. This process 516 00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:30,080 Speaker 1: of digging through like all the jumble that is my 517 00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:32,760 Speaker 1: brain and my pile of emotions has been so helpful 518 00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:36,240 Speaker 1: not only for making me a more functional human, but 519 00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:40,880 Speaker 1: also more functional human in my relationships and so imagining. 520 00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:43,280 Speaker 1: Like my boyfriend and I talked all the time about 521 00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:46,280 Speaker 1: our faulty tool sets that we were provided with when 522 00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:51,040 Speaker 1: we were younger, and so not having been able to 523 00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:53,200 Speaker 1: add to that tool set getting married at a super 524 00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:56,200 Speaker 1: young age. Not that I'm saying that there aren't totally 525 00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:59,400 Speaker 1: mature like with it having it all together younger people, 526 00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:03,720 Speaker 1: but I would also be in that probably divorced category. Okay, 527 00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:06,959 Speaker 1: but let's say that we had gotten married in our 528 00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:10,600 Speaker 1: early twenties and thanks to our faulty tool said's respectively, 529 00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:16,600 Speaker 1: our marriages dissolved. Now let's talk about remarriage, because as 530 00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:20,360 Speaker 1: common as divorces and also as probably painful as it 531 00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:24,720 Speaker 1: can be, remarriage is still highly common. And this was 532 00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:29,400 Speaker 1: reported on in November in Time magazine, and I believe 533 00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:32,360 Speaker 1: that they were reporting on statistics out of the Pew 534 00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:35,120 Speaker 1: Research Center, which we cite so often on the podcast, 535 00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:40,680 Speaker 1: and they were writing about how round about there of 536 00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:46,320 Speaker 1: all the new marriages in we're not first marriages. In 537 00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:51,040 Speaker 1: half of those cases both spouses had been married before. 538 00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:54,640 Speaker 1: So a big bulk of our marriage statistics are people saying, 539 00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:57,800 Speaker 1: you know what, I'll give it another go. Why not? 540 00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:00,440 Speaker 1: There is a huge drive for a lot of people 541 00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:04,080 Speaker 1: to remarry, whether it is that nineteen two Harper's bizarre 542 00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:08,920 Speaker 1: life convenience companionship thing or you know, a multitude of 543 00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:11,920 Speaker 1: other things because you can fall in love again, Caroline, 544 00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:15,560 Speaker 1: It's true. Oh my gosh. Well yeah, and Pew talked 545 00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:19,960 Speaker 1: about these reasons possibly people wanting more life satisfaction because 546 00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:22,640 Speaker 1: only half of divorced or separated people said they were 547 00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:26,759 Speaker 1: happy with their family lives compared with married folks of 548 00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:29,360 Speaker 1: whom were satisfied. So maybe there's just this drive to 549 00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:31,760 Speaker 1: have a richer family life. But there's also the issue 550 00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:35,080 Speaker 1: of commitment and stability. Uh. Pew writes about how divorced 551 00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:38,480 Speaker 1: or separated people put more emphasis on making a lifelong 552 00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:44,080 Speaker 1: commitment and financial stability than do singles or cohabitating partners, 553 00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:47,000 Speaker 1: and they are more likely to say that these are 554 00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:51,200 Speaker 1: reasons to get married. And men, as echoed in our 555 00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:57,480 Speaker 1: podcast on Widowhood, men are more interested than women in remarriage. 556 00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:01,120 Speaker 1: Men are more likely than women to view companionship as 557 00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:04,600 Speaker 1: important to marriage, as compared with just thirty percent whose 558 00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:07,759 Speaker 1: second marriage is quote unquote for love, and to say 559 00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:11,200 Speaker 1: that financial stability is a very important reason to get married. 560 00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:13,880 Speaker 1: And when it comes to men's reasons, for remarriage are 561 00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:18,120 Speaker 1: also likelier than women to just like, companionship and financial 562 00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:23,239 Speaker 1: stability is too big motivators. Yeah, as opposed to the 563 00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:26,760 Speaker 1: thirty percent whose second marriage was for love. That can't 564 00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:29,920 Speaker 1: be right. Come on, it seems like if you were 565 00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:33,000 Speaker 1: going to go through that a second time, that wouldn't 566 00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:34,719 Speaker 1: you be more motivated to do it? Well no, I 567 00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:36,880 Speaker 1: was about to say, wouldn't be more motivated to do 568 00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:38,880 Speaker 1: it for love? But no, By that point you probably 569 00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:40,400 Speaker 1: realize that love can dissolve and you might be a 570 00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:43,400 Speaker 1: little more pragmatic. Yeah. Well, I mean we've talked about this. 571 00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:46,480 Speaker 1: We've done a previous episode looking at issues of divorce 572 00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:51,200 Speaker 1: and widowhood, and men have typically typically are more driven 573 00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:54,760 Speaker 1: to form those person to person bonds with a partner 574 00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:57,279 Speaker 1: than women are. Women are like, I've got my girlfriends, 575 00:35:57,320 --> 00:36:00,320 Speaker 1: I'm cool, I'm fine, I'm happy, I'm I've got healthy 576 00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:02,560 Speaker 1: relationships all around me, whereas men are like, I need 577 00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:05,759 Speaker 1: a cruise director. Well, that's why I'm really curious to 578 00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:11,319 Speaker 1: see in emerging literature in the coming years similar kinds 579 00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:14,839 Speaker 1: of data on gay couples, specifically looking at gay men. 580 00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:18,719 Speaker 1: I wonder if the motivations would shift at all when 581 00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:21,160 Speaker 1: you have two guys or two women, and how those 582 00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:28,440 Speaker 1: kinds of gender stereotypical marital roles than maybe mix and 583 00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:33,160 Speaker 1: match when it's it's two fellows or two ladies. Yeah, well, 584 00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:36,080 Speaker 1: something that I thought about reading about this whole Like 585 00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:41,200 Speaker 1: men are motivated by financial security and and remarrying. You know, 586 00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:44,239 Speaker 1: earlier we talked about how women are way more likely 587 00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:47,880 Speaker 1: to have their finances and their earning potential dinged post 588 00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:51,120 Speaker 1: divorced than men are men. Just like I've just continued 589 00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:53,720 Speaker 1: on this trajectory of my career and my earning potential 590 00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:56,160 Speaker 1: this whole time, whereas a lot of women step off 591 00:36:56,200 --> 00:36:58,600 Speaker 1: the track, you know, lean in all that good stuff. 592 00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:01,360 Speaker 1: They've stepped off the track to there be at home 593 00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:04,080 Speaker 1: or be with the kids or whatever. And there have 594 00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:08,880 Speaker 1: been study findings talking about how like attracts like, especially 595 00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:11,560 Speaker 1: when it comes to important things like money, beyond just 596 00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:15,480 Speaker 1: personality and interests and those kinds of things. And so 597 00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:19,279 Speaker 1: it almost seems like with finances being so important to men, 598 00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:22,640 Speaker 1: they might be seeking out someone who has equal earning 599 00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:26,799 Speaker 1: potential to themselves, like potentially a trophy wife. But for 600 00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:30,440 Speaker 1: a woman who's already been financially danged after a divorce, 601 00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:33,719 Speaker 1: she might not be able to sort of find a 602 00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:36,719 Speaker 1: new mate who's earning potential is as great as her 603 00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:39,920 Speaker 1: ex husband's, And so that would be something I'd like 604 00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:41,680 Speaker 1: to learn more about. But that's just kind of a 605 00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:43,600 Speaker 1: question that popped into my head as I was reading 606 00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:46,680 Speaker 1: well and talking about the earning potential to and how 607 00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:51,400 Speaker 1: divorce can impact women's incomes, especially as they get older. 608 00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:55,320 Speaker 1: Sort of the sadder reality, the bleaker reality, I should 609 00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:58,160 Speaker 1: say of divorce for women is that, according to the 610 00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:03,120 Speaker 1: Social Security Administration, of divorced women over sixty five live 611 00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:07,080 Speaker 1: in poverty compared with eighteen percent of never married women 612 00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:12,759 Speaker 1: and fift percent of widowed women. So two percent is 613 00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:16,239 Speaker 1: not huge, and even five percent is not doesn't sound 614 00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:19,680 Speaker 1: like a huge percentage, is not this gaping gap, but still, 615 00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:24,440 Speaker 1: when we're talking about across the country, that adds up 616 00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:27,320 Speaker 1: to a number of people. Yeah, And the Social Security 617 00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:31,239 Speaker 1: Administration was spelling out like, hey, well, at least widows 618 00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:35,480 Speaker 1: have some sort of pension or um or women who 619 00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:39,239 Speaker 1: have been in the workforce have accrued Social Security benefits. 620 00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:41,200 Speaker 1: So like, there are different types of women in different 621 00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:44,080 Speaker 1: types of life situations who are still having money come in, 622 00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:46,880 Speaker 1: but those women who completely stepped off the career track 623 00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:50,680 Speaker 1: haven't been accruing any social security benefits, which form a 624 00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:54,080 Speaker 1: nice net for a lot of people. Yeah, but when 625 00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:56,359 Speaker 1: it comes to the good, and there is a lot 626 00:38:56,360 --> 00:39:00,480 Speaker 1: of good, especially because I would argue that this the 627 00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:03,960 Speaker 1: divorce stigma is probably lower than it's ever been. We 628 00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:06,480 Speaker 1: except that it is in a lot of ways a 629 00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:09,719 Speaker 1: fact of life. It's kind of a roll of the 630 00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:14,160 Speaker 1: dice at this point. And there was a column at 631 00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:18,279 Speaker 1: More magazine from divorce coach Jill Brook, who I mean 632 00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:21,160 Speaker 1: by virtue of her being a divorce coach, she's pretty 633 00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:24,560 Speaker 1: pro divorce, but I mean she's she's really optimistic about it, 634 00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:27,319 Speaker 1: saying that most over forty women realize, you know what, 635 00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:30,520 Speaker 1: I might not get married again, but I really don't care. 636 00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:34,439 Speaker 1: And she says the research finds it overall women are 637 00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:38,640 Speaker 1: happier post divorced. Yeah. She says that they're finally able 638 00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:41,920 Speaker 1: to focus on themselves, particularly obviously if the kids have 639 00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:44,920 Speaker 1: left home and they have the resources to do so, 640 00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:48,640 Speaker 1: which is also key. Um, you know, they're not responsible 641 00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:52,120 Speaker 1: for anyone else's housework and shoes. They're no longer picking 642 00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:55,240 Speaker 1: up a husband or a boyfriend's underwear off of the floor. 643 00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:58,840 Speaker 1: And she talks about Dr. Barbara Bartlett, who's a sex 644 00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:02,080 Speaker 1: therapist and psychio trist at New York Presbyterian Hospital, and 645 00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:05,880 Speaker 1: says that Bartle sees a growing trend of financially secure 646 00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:09,959 Speaker 1: women preferring to stay single and date. They enjoy having 647 00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:12,560 Speaker 1: their own schedules without having to report to anyone, And 648 00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:15,600 Speaker 1: plus you get the whole cougar factor that that's also 649 00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:18,080 Speaker 1: becoming less and less stigmatized for an older woman and 650 00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:20,800 Speaker 1: a younger man to get together. So there are options, 651 00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:26,680 Speaker 1: There are options and more more stereotypes in which you 652 00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:28,920 Speaker 1: can You can be an animal when you grow up, 653 00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:33,160 Speaker 1: like a cougar um and I will stay though anecdotally 654 00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:38,279 Speaker 1: I am want. One divorce story that makes my heart 655 00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:43,959 Speaker 1: sing is a friend of mines mom who got divorced 656 00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:50,160 Speaker 1: when she was probably in her mid forties, and it 657 00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:54,040 Speaker 1: was a kind of nasty divorce. It was pretty heart wrenching. 658 00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:56,279 Speaker 1: There were kids, you know, they had had a lot 659 00:40:56,280 --> 00:40:57,719 Speaker 1: that she had been with her husband for a very 660 00:40:57,760 --> 00:41:02,040 Speaker 1: long time. But she met this guy and they are 661 00:41:02,239 --> 00:41:05,360 Speaker 1: in love and she seems younger than ever ever before 662 00:41:05,640 --> 00:41:08,719 Speaker 1: and it really is like a second life for her, 663 00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:14,080 Speaker 1: and it's just been really amazing to see her coming 664 00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:16,880 Speaker 1: to life, especially being in what was in a lot 665 00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:20,680 Speaker 1: of ways a very unhappy marriage, and it's like it 666 00:41:20,719 --> 00:41:24,560 Speaker 1: couldn't have come soon enough. And her boyfriend also is 667 00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:26,840 Speaker 1: divorced as well, and he has his kids too, and 668 00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:28,760 Speaker 1: it's like for both of them, they're like, oh my god, 669 00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:32,600 Speaker 1: you're amazing humans. So yeah, I mean I think that 670 00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:37,480 Speaker 1: they're I'm I'm heartened to see that because we have 671 00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:41,080 Speaker 1: longer lifespans than ever before, you know, like that that's 672 00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:43,640 Speaker 1: also a reason why divorce happens. It's because, like humans 673 00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:46,120 Speaker 1: really weren't built to like hang out with one human 674 00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:53,359 Speaker 1: like fifty years. And one example of how we are 675 00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:58,920 Speaker 1: ritualizing this kind of romantic transition, I don't even want 676 00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:01,439 Speaker 1: to call it a loss, this romantic transition is through 677 00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:06,880 Speaker 1: the more recent trend of divorce parties. How interesting this 678 00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:09,480 Speaker 1: sounds like another thing that you sort of have to 679 00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:12,719 Speaker 1: have those resources for. Well, yeah, you have to be 680 00:42:12,719 --> 00:42:15,200 Speaker 1: able to, you know, buy a cake perhaps if you want. 681 00:42:15,239 --> 00:42:20,120 Speaker 1: There are bakers who will sell you a divorce cake, 682 00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:22,160 Speaker 1: and a lot of times they'll have a similar kind 683 00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:24,360 Speaker 1: of wedding cake topper on it with the bride and 684 00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:27,040 Speaker 1: the groom, but usually it's something really funny, like the 685 00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:30,560 Speaker 1: bread dragging the groom out to a trash bin and 686 00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:34,160 Speaker 1: just to drive home. Caroline. How how significant of a 687 00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:37,959 Speaker 1: trend this has become. There's a BBC News headline from 688 00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:46,480 Speaker 1: late the red hot business of divorce celebration. Interesting, so 689 00:42:46,640 --> 00:42:48,560 Speaker 1: not not really too far I mean, it's on the 690 00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:50,480 Speaker 1: other end of the spectrum, but not too far removed 691 00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:53,440 Speaker 1: from the gender revealed parties that we've talked about before. 692 00:42:54,160 --> 00:42:56,920 Speaker 1: People wanting an excuse to to throw a party and 693 00:42:56,960 --> 00:43:00,239 Speaker 1: eat some cake, maybe be go to Vegas and live 694 00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:02,800 Speaker 1: it up. Yeah. I also thought it was interesting that 695 00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:06,920 Speaker 1: there's even a Wikipedia entry for divorce parties. And in 696 00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:11,600 Speaker 1: that BBC News article they profile this woman who has 697 00:43:11,719 --> 00:43:16,480 Speaker 1: now become a divorce party planner, who went to Vegas 698 00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:19,920 Speaker 1: with her girl friends post divorce to kind of, you know, 699 00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:23,640 Speaker 1: kickstart the whole post divorce process. They went to a 700 00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:27,600 Speaker 1: shooting range. She brought her bridal gown and she shot 701 00:43:27,640 --> 00:43:30,200 Speaker 1: it up with a machine gun and she had so 702 00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:33,120 Speaker 1: much fun doing it she turned it into a business. 703 00:43:33,480 --> 00:43:39,520 Speaker 1: And common kinds of things include skydiving parties where you're 704 00:43:39,680 --> 00:43:44,239 Speaker 1: jumping into being single again. And there's even in the 705 00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:47,759 Speaker 1: Netherlands a divorce hotel where couples can go together to 706 00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:49,640 Speaker 1: like take care of the whole thing. You can file 707 00:43:49,719 --> 00:43:52,960 Speaker 1: your papers, you know, get divorced, maybe have a little 708 00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:56,520 Speaker 1: like post divorce pampering, and you're just like, all right, cool, yeah, 709 00:43:56,719 --> 00:44:00,200 Speaker 1: see you later. Divorce interesting, but that is so far 710 00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:03,480 Speaker 1: removed from the average woman's divorce experience. Well yeah, I 711 00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:05,920 Speaker 1: mean the thing if you have the money at hand, 712 00:44:06,280 --> 00:44:09,319 Speaker 1: after paying a divorce lawyer and like going through all 713 00:44:09,360 --> 00:44:12,520 Speaker 1: of that and you know, renegotiating all of your finances, 714 00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:15,359 Speaker 1: is now a single person and you can then go 715 00:44:15,560 --> 00:44:20,120 Speaker 1: to Vegas with your girlfriends. It does seem like a 716 00:44:20,120 --> 00:44:24,080 Speaker 1: bit of a Real Housewives e kind of pursuit. Yeah yeah, 717 00:44:24,280 --> 00:44:27,480 Speaker 1: And and just like the Real Housewives, it's sort of 718 00:44:27,480 --> 00:44:30,600 Speaker 1: tacky but also sort of just living your life by 719 00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:33,640 Speaker 1: your own rules exactly. I mean, in the BBC did 720 00:44:33,640 --> 00:44:37,799 Speaker 1: talk to a psychologist who said, yeah, this is you know, 721 00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:40,680 Speaker 1: this could be seen as a healthy way to you 722 00:44:40,840 --> 00:44:45,520 Speaker 1: create this new kind of ritual. I mean, we we 723 00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:50,200 Speaker 1: it happens so commonly. I mean, it happens half as 724 00:44:50,239 --> 00:44:55,759 Speaker 1: often as marriage does. So why not eat some cake? Why, Well, 725 00:44:55,800 --> 00:45:00,359 Speaker 1: that's my attitude about everything. Why not? Yeah, it's true. Um, 726 00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:03,800 Speaker 1: So I am curious to know if any podcast listeners 727 00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:08,440 Speaker 1: have either thrown or attended a divorce party. Yeah, I'm 728 00:45:08,480 --> 00:45:12,880 Speaker 1: just curious about knowing, Like, what's what's your divorce reality? 729 00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:16,040 Speaker 1: Or is your life more like the nineteen sixty two 730 00:45:16,080 --> 00:45:19,040 Speaker 1: Harper's Bizarre article where your fellow women and married people 731 00:45:19,040 --> 00:45:22,600 Speaker 1: see you as sort of a suspicious threat or somebody 732 00:45:22,600 --> 00:45:25,080 Speaker 1: to be pitied or are you just out there living 733 00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:28,319 Speaker 1: your life excited to sort of be free of your 734 00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:32,560 Speaker 1: you know, marital bonds. Yeah, what is the status of 735 00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:36,400 Speaker 1: the divorce stigma? Mom Stuff at how stuffworks dot com 736 00:45:36,520 --> 00:45:38,960 Speaker 1: is our email address. You can also tweet us at 737 00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:42,399 Speaker 1: mom Stuff podcast or messages on Facebook, and we've got 738 00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:50,040 Speaker 1: a couple of messages to share with you right now. Well, so, 739 00:45:50,280 --> 00:45:53,600 Speaker 1: Christian and I have gotten an overwhelmingly awesome response to 740 00:45:53,600 --> 00:45:56,120 Speaker 1: our O c D episode. A lot of you guys, 741 00:45:56,320 --> 00:45:59,160 Speaker 1: whether you have O c D or just no with 742 00:45:59,160 --> 00:46:01,800 Speaker 1: with O c D, wrote in thanking us for talking 743 00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:04,719 Speaker 1: about the topic. And we have two letters here from 744 00:46:04,760 --> 00:46:08,000 Speaker 1: women who are dealing with this thing called pure oh, 745 00:46:08,040 --> 00:46:10,279 Speaker 1: and so we're going to read them now. This one's 746 00:46:10,280 --> 00:46:13,279 Speaker 1: from Whitney. She says, First of all, I live in 747 00:46:13,280 --> 00:46:15,360 Speaker 1: an area where it's not a good thing to be 748 00:46:15,480 --> 00:46:17,920 Speaker 1: liberal or a feminist, So you guys have been like 749 00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:22,279 Speaker 1: my feminist besties over the past year. Thanks Whitney. She 750 00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:23,880 Speaker 1: goes on to say, thank you so much for your 751 00:46:23,880 --> 00:46:26,880 Speaker 1: wonderful episode on O c D. I was diagnosed at 752 00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:29,480 Speaker 1: the age of fifteen. I suffer from a form of 753 00:46:29,480 --> 00:46:32,520 Speaker 1: O c D known as pure oh. I have intrusive 754 00:46:32,520 --> 00:46:35,400 Speaker 1: thoughts of harming myself or loved ones, even though I 755 00:46:35,440 --> 00:46:39,480 Speaker 1: am neither violent nor suicidal, and I've never really had compulsions. 756 00:46:39,960 --> 00:46:42,279 Speaker 1: If you want further inside. This is also discussed in 757 00:46:42,320 --> 00:46:46,759 Speaker 1: the first episode of another fantastic podcast called Invisibilia. I 758 00:46:46,760 --> 00:46:49,879 Speaker 1: am very fortunate to have almost no symptoms eleven years later, 759 00:46:49,920 --> 00:46:54,440 Speaker 1: thanks to antidepressants and cognitive behavioral therapy. Thank you, Thank you, 760 00:46:54,600 --> 00:46:58,000 Speaker 1: Thank you for calling out shows like Monk for misrepresenting 761 00:46:58,040 --> 00:47:00,560 Speaker 1: O c D. It is not a cute, fun, or 762 00:47:00,600 --> 00:47:04,200 Speaker 1: beneficial illness. Ever since I was a teenager, I loathed 763 00:47:04,239 --> 00:47:06,880 Speaker 1: shows like Monk and What About Bob because they aren't 764 00:47:06,920 --> 00:47:09,080 Speaker 1: helpful to o c D suffers and those with other 765 00:47:09,120 --> 00:47:13,120 Speaker 1: mental illnesses. Either our experiences are invalidated because the o 766 00:47:13,239 --> 00:47:15,719 Speaker 1: c D is seen as something minor, or we're seen 767 00:47:15,760 --> 00:47:18,640 Speaker 1: as weird and our opinions don't matter. Every time I 768 00:47:18,680 --> 00:47:21,120 Speaker 1: try to express opinions about those types of jokes in 769 00:47:21,120 --> 00:47:23,560 Speaker 1: the media, I've gotten brushed off by both friends and 770 00:47:23,600 --> 00:47:27,560 Speaker 1: family for overreacting because it's just a show. It may 771 00:47:27,680 --> 00:47:29,759 Speaker 1: just be a TV show, but the things we watch 772 00:47:29,920 --> 00:47:35,080 Speaker 1: both reflect and influence our attitudes. So thanks Whitney, and 773 00:47:35,120 --> 00:47:39,040 Speaker 1: I've got one here from Rebecca. Also about pure Oh, 774 00:47:39,160 --> 00:47:41,560 Speaker 1: she writes, I have a version of o c D 775 00:47:41,719 --> 00:47:44,680 Speaker 1: called pure OH since childhood and was finally diagnosed as 776 00:47:44,680 --> 00:47:47,600 Speaker 1: past fall. Purero is basically o c D without the 777 00:47:47,600 --> 00:47:51,239 Speaker 1: outward physical compulsions. I spend hours and hours obsessing about 778 00:47:51,239 --> 00:47:53,279 Speaker 1: all kinds of things, from the food that I eat 779 00:47:53,320 --> 00:47:55,799 Speaker 1: to how my lesson plans are written out. I've had 780 00:47:55,840 --> 00:47:58,400 Speaker 1: obsessions since I was a little girl. We once at 781 00:47:58,400 --> 00:48:00,759 Speaker 1: our house bombed for fleas, and without telling anyone, I 782 00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:03,560 Speaker 1: slowly but surely threw away or refuse to touch any 783 00:48:03,600 --> 00:48:06,759 Speaker 1: of my belongings that I imagined may have been exposed 784 00:48:06,800 --> 00:48:10,840 Speaker 1: to the mysteriously killing chemicals. I spent seven years in 785 00:48:10,880 --> 00:48:12,840 Speaker 1: therapy with someone who didn't believe in O c D 786 00:48:12,960 --> 00:48:16,480 Speaker 1: without compulsions, and it was an unbelievable relief to finally 787 00:48:16,520 --> 00:48:18,960 Speaker 1: find someone who understood what was happening in my brain. 788 00:48:19,600 --> 00:48:22,279 Speaker 1: I also have other anxiety issues in clinical depression, but 789 00:48:22,320 --> 00:48:24,600 Speaker 1: I'm very high functioning, and I'm trying to spread the 790 00:48:24,640 --> 00:48:27,279 Speaker 1: words so that others who have these disorders can get 791 00:48:27,320 --> 00:48:30,279 Speaker 1: the help and compassion that they deserve. I'm hoping that 792 00:48:30,320 --> 00:48:32,120 Speaker 1: you can help spread the word the pure o o 793 00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:35,759 Speaker 1: c D is a real diagnosis. Just because someone isn't 794 00:48:35,840 --> 00:48:38,400 Speaker 1: lining up their pencils and checking the oven over and 795 00:48:38,400 --> 00:48:42,160 Speaker 1: over doesn't mean they aren't struggling. Thanks as always for 796 00:48:42,239 --> 00:48:45,879 Speaker 1: helping to keep us all educated about current issues, and 797 00:48:45,920 --> 00:48:49,239 Speaker 1: thank you Rebecca, and thanks to everybody who's written into us. 798 00:48:49,280 --> 00:48:51,600 Speaker 1: Mom stuff at how stuff works dot com is our 799 00:48:51,640 --> 00:48:54,320 Speaker 1: email address, and thrilling to all of our social media 800 00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:57,759 Speaker 1: as well as all of our blogs, videos and podcasts, 801 00:48:57,760 --> 00:49:00,959 Speaker 1: including this one with our sources. So you can read 802 00:49:01,000 --> 00:49:04,479 Speaker 1: more about divorced women, head on over to stuff Mom 803 00:49:04,520 --> 00:49:10,759 Speaker 1: Never Told You dot com for more on this and 804 00:49:10,840 --> 00:49:21,520 Speaker 1: thousands of other topics isn't how stuff works. Dot com