1 00:00:00,840 --> 00:00:05,439 Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised. 2 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:14,920 Speaker 2: The message that we were getting was that you can't 3 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:18,360 Speaker 2: bring in your modern day justice to try to respond 4 00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:20,840 Speaker 2: to the tragedy that was Katrina, and that we should 5 00:00:20,880 --> 00:00:27,880 Speaker 2: best leave it alone. 6 00:00:28,120 --> 00:00:31,960 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor 7 00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:34,720 Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the co host of the 8 00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:38,640 Speaker 1: podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right, and throughout my career, 9 00:00:38,880 --> 00:00:42,640 Speaker 1: research for my many audio and book projects has taken 10 00:00:42,680 --> 00:00:45,920 Speaker 1: me around the world. On Wicked Words, I sit down 11 00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:50,720 Speaker 1: with the people I've met along the way, amazing writers, journalists, filmmakers, 12 00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:55,160 Speaker 1: and podcasters who have investigated and reported on notorious true 13 00:00:55,160 --> 00:00:58,920 Speaker 1: crime cases. This is about the choices writers make, both 14 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:01,920 Speaker 1: good and bad, and it's a deep dive into the 15 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:08,839 Speaker 1: unpublished details behind their stories. Hurricane Katrina devastated New Orleans 16 00:01:08,880 --> 00:01:11,520 Speaker 1: in two thousand and five. Four years later, a young 17 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:15,840 Speaker 1: prosecutor in the Justice Department was drawn into examining a 18 00:01:15,880 --> 00:01:19,720 Speaker 1: mysterious death that happened after the storm. Henry Glover was 19 00:01:19,760 --> 00:01:23,360 Speaker 1: found dead in a burned out car two weeks after Katrina, 20 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:27,000 Speaker 1: and who he was last seen with became the center 21 00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:30,919 Speaker 1: of controversy and reform. Jared Fishman tells me the story 22 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:36,480 Speaker 1: from his book Fire on the Levee. So let's just 23 00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:39,640 Speaker 1: talk about how you came across this story, because I 24 00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:43,160 Speaker 1: often talk with nonfiction writers about how they find it 25 00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:44,920 Speaker 1: and it's sort of like a blip on a blog, 26 00:01:45,080 --> 00:01:47,200 Speaker 1: or you know, they've read about it really briefly, but 27 00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:51,160 Speaker 1: you're much more intimate, you know your connection to this story. 28 00:01:51,640 --> 00:01:54,040 Speaker 2: At the time this story came across my desk, I 29 00:01:54,160 --> 00:01:56,960 Speaker 2: was a rookie prosecutor at the US Department of Justice 30 00:01:56,960 --> 00:01:59,920 Speaker 2: in the Civil Rights Division. I worked for the part 31 00:01:59,920 --> 00:02:03,640 Speaker 2: of DOJ that was responsible for enforcing American federal civil 32 00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:08,120 Speaker 2: rights crimes, and that included hate crimes, human trafficking, and 33 00:02:08,200 --> 00:02:11,680 Speaker 2: police misconduct. So at the time that I received the case, 34 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:15,000 Speaker 2: it wound on my desk. There was a mysterious death 35 00:02:15,040 --> 00:02:17,960 Speaker 2: of a man in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, and 36 00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:21,400 Speaker 2: it came across my desk because allegations were beginning to 37 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:23,840 Speaker 2: surface that perhaps the police might have been involved. 38 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:28,560 Speaker 1: Set the scene for where we are. We're in New Orleans. 39 00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:32,120 Speaker 2: Right, We're in New Orleans. It's September two, two thousand 40 00:02:32,120 --> 00:02:36,920 Speaker 2: and five, four days after Hurricane Katrina devastated New Orleans. 41 00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:39,680 Speaker 2: For most of the city, about eighty percent of the 42 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:44,320 Speaker 2: city was underwater after the hurricane breached levees that protected 43 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:45,960 Speaker 2: the city, and about eighty percent of the city then 44 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:49,480 Speaker 2: went underwater. This particular story takes place in one of 45 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:52,160 Speaker 2: the few parts of New Orleans that was above the 46 00:02:52,200 --> 00:02:56,040 Speaker 2: waterline that had stayed dried in Algiers. A lot of 47 00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:59,360 Speaker 2: the people who live in this community were predominantly lower 48 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:03,160 Speaker 2: income African Americans, and the people who were still in 49 00:03:03,200 --> 00:03:06,320 Speaker 2: the city four days after the storm were generally those 50 00:03:06,760 --> 00:03:08,760 Speaker 2: who lack the resources to be able to leave. 51 00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:13,120 Speaker 1: So with Katrina, we know sort of what happens later 52 00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:16,799 Speaker 1: on the aftermath, sort of the long reaching aftermath of Katrina. 53 00:03:16,919 --> 00:03:21,399 Speaker 1: What is happening in the days right after in Algiers 54 00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:24,760 Speaker 1: or really across the city. Does anything set the stage 55 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:27,240 Speaker 1: for what's going to happen to this one man, this victim. 56 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:30,480 Speaker 2: Yes, I mean in the immediate aftermath, there's almost a 57 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:35,680 Speaker 2: total breakdown in normal policing infrastructure. The federal government does 58 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:38,680 Speaker 2: a terrible job in responding, and so in the initial 59 00:03:38,760 --> 00:03:42,480 Speaker 2: days after the storm, the police are primarily responsible for 60 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:47,560 Speaker 2: rescuing people. They're driving around the city, they're piloting boats 61 00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:50,160 Speaker 2: in the parts of town that are underwater, and they're 62 00:03:50,200 --> 00:03:53,920 Speaker 2: rescuing people off of roofs. So in those initial days, 63 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:56,600 Speaker 2: a lot of the response was just trying to deal 64 00:03:56,600 --> 00:03:59,520 Speaker 2: with civilians who were still around. But as those days 65 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:03,080 Speaker 2: continue and new resources did not come in to support 66 00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:06,080 Speaker 2: the community, we see a major breakdown in law and order. 67 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:09,800 Speaker 2: We see people beginning to steal in order to survive, 68 00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:13,800 Speaker 2: everything from things that make sense like food and gasoline, 69 00:04:14,200 --> 00:04:17,760 Speaker 2: do other things like guns and cars and flat screen TVs. 70 00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:20,640 Speaker 2: So in the course of this, the police are both 71 00:04:20,680 --> 00:04:24,040 Speaker 2: trying to exercise in a search and rescue type scenario, 72 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:26,240 Speaker 2: but then they're also dealing with the breakdown of law 73 00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:28,120 Speaker 2: and order that follows afterwards. 74 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:32,640 Speaker 1: Is there a way to look at Katrina when it hits? 75 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:34,600 Speaker 1: When Katrina hits, is there a way to look at 76 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:37,240 Speaker 1: it as the haves versus the have nots? Is it 77 00:04:37,279 --> 00:04:40,000 Speaker 1: the people who were able to leave were the wealthier 78 00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:43,760 Speaker 1: people or exactly how did people leave? Who chose to 79 00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:44,839 Speaker 1: leave who didn't. 80 00:04:45,160 --> 00:04:47,200 Speaker 2: Well, it's a combination. I think if you had the 81 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:50,640 Speaker 2: means to leave, most people did leave. They were predicting 82 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:53,599 Speaker 2: a worse storm than they have historically got. But many 83 00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:55,919 Speaker 2: of the people in New Orleans are also very proud 84 00:04:56,480 --> 00:04:59,800 Speaker 2: they have rode out a number of different hurricanes over 85 00:04:59,839 --> 00:05:02,760 Speaker 2: the years. And so it's a combination of people, those 86 00:05:02,800 --> 00:05:05,440 Speaker 2: who lacked the resources to get out, some who didn't 87 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:08,080 Speaker 2: believe this storm was going to be that bad, people 88 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:10,720 Speaker 2: who wanted to stick around and see what the storm 89 00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 2: actually would look like and feel like. So I think 90 00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:16,279 Speaker 2: there's a mixture of people. But at least as it 91 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:19,560 Speaker 2: relates to Henry Glover and his family, they didn't have 92 00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:22,760 Speaker 2: enough cars to get their entire family out of New Orleans, 93 00:05:23,279 --> 00:05:26,359 Speaker 2: and they simply didn't have the resources to be able 94 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:29,120 Speaker 2: to mobilize for such an uncertain period of time, and 95 00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:32,320 Speaker 2: so they stayed and the family definitely suffered as a 96 00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:32,920 Speaker 2: result of that. 97 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:39,120 Speaker 1: So I'm in Austin, Texas. We don't get hurricanes, we 98 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:42,400 Speaker 1: don't really get tornadoes. We get a lot of flash floods, 99 00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:45,920 Speaker 1: and I know how we try to sort of prepare 100 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:50,440 Speaker 1: for the flash flood What happens with Katrina. Are people 101 00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:53,839 Speaker 1: boarding up windows? What is the protocol? 102 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:56,240 Speaker 2: Just so I don't know, Yeah, I mean people are 103 00:05:56,279 --> 00:06:00,720 Speaker 2: boarding up their their windows and gathering as much as 104 00:06:00,760 --> 00:06:03,160 Speaker 2: they can to get out. And one of the things 105 00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:06,280 Speaker 2: that I think is interesting about Hurricane Katrina and its 106 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:08,440 Speaker 2: impact on New Orleans is a lot of us think 107 00:06:08,440 --> 00:06:10,520 Speaker 2: of it as a natural disaster. It was a hurricane, 108 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:13,919 Speaker 2: it hit the city, but that wasn't really what caused 109 00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:17,159 Speaker 2: all the damage. What really the massive amount of damage 110 00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:20,520 Speaker 2: came from the breaking of the levees. So if you 111 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:22,839 Speaker 2: think of New Orleans as being a bit of a bowl, 112 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:26,400 Speaker 2: much of the city is under sea level, and so 113 00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:29,640 Speaker 2: in order to protect the city, they created this protective 114 00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:34,200 Speaker 2: shield of levees so that as the Mississippi River rised, 115 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:37,640 Speaker 2: it didn't flood the city. Now, those protective levees were 116 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:40,080 Speaker 2: supposed to be able to keep the city safe. However, 117 00:06:40,200 --> 00:06:43,320 Speaker 2: as the storm hit and as the waters rose, they broke. 118 00:06:43,960 --> 00:06:47,560 Speaker 2: And so once those levees broke, the water infiltrated into 119 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:49,680 Speaker 2: the city and then we begin to see that bowl 120 00:06:49,839 --> 00:06:51,000 Speaker 2: begin to fill up with water. 121 00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:54,280 Speaker 1: So, you know, we're talking about the levees breaking, and 122 00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:58,520 Speaker 1: we also talked about the crime and disorder that was happening. 123 00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:00,919 Speaker 1: Can you give me some contact for what's happening with 124 00:07:01,040 --> 00:07:05,320 Speaker 1: the New Orleans Police department before Katrina happens. I know 125 00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:09,720 Speaker 1: there's a long history of Louisiana's corruption in government and 126 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:13,560 Speaker 1: corruption in the police department in New Orleans, but are 127 00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:16,000 Speaker 1: we at the worst before Katrina's happening. 128 00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:18,080 Speaker 2: It was pretty bad. I mean, I would say the 129 00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:22,400 Speaker 2: nineties were probably the worst in terms of what New 130 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:25,520 Speaker 2: Orleans Police department was facing. It has a long history 131 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:29,560 Speaker 2: of corruption of abuse. In the nineties, New Orleans had 132 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:34,440 Speaker 2: two police officers on death row, one for assassinating a 133 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:37,480 Speaker 2: witness against him who made a civil rights complaint, and 134 00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:41,280 Speaker 2: another who assassinated her own partner during a botched robbery 135 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:44,120 Speaker 2: of a restaurant where she moonlighted as security. There were 136 00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:48,960 Speaker 2: a number of New Orleans police officers who were accused 137 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:52,760 Speaker 2: of murder and various other felonies over the time, and 138 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:56,000 Speaker 2: then you mix in that with corruption with other sorts 139 00:07:56,040 --> 00:07:59,080 Speaker 2: of civil rights abuses. It was in pretty bad shape. Now. 140 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:02,360 Speaker 2: There were efforts over the years to combat that, but 141 00:08:02,520 --> 00:08:05,640 Speaker 2: by the time Hurricane Katrina hit many of the reforms 142 00:08:05,640 --> 00:08:08,400 Speaker 2: that had followed the late nineties it began to recede, 143 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:12,560 Speaker 2: and so they were at a point where the department 144 00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:16,800 Speaker 2: was beginning to fall apart. Again, and Hurricane Katrina really 145 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:18,080 Speaker 2: stirred some things up. 146 00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:22,040 Speaker 1: Were they understaffed when Hurricane Katrina hit? I mean, were 147 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:24,400 Speaker 1: they really struggling to get people out onto the streets. 148 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:28,040 Speaker 2: Well, there were a number of officers who abandoned their post. 149 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:30,400 Speaker 2: I want to say it was about two hundred two 150 00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:34,680 Speaker 2: hundred and fifty officers if I'm remembering correctly. So certainly 151 00:08:34,960 --> 00:08:38,440 Speaker 2: understaffed in terms of resources. And you've got to remember 152 00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:41,480 Speaker 2: a lot of the city lost electricity. The thing that 153 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:44,040 Speaker 2: I would hear police officers talk a lot about is 154 00:08:44,080 --> 00:08:48,080 Speaker 2: the absence of communications. So typically police officers there's a 155 00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:51,520 Speaker 2: lot of communications via radio. But as there were issues 156 00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:54,559 Speaker 2: with the electrical grid, as there were issues with communications systems, 157 00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:56,719 Speaker 2: it was harder and harder to get messages back and 158 00:08:56,760 --> 00:08:58,520 Speaker 2: forth between different parts of the city. 159 00:08:58,920 --> 00:09:02,560 Speaker 1: So the hurricane hits and there are several days of 160 00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:05,199 Speaker 1: just trying to get the city in order. I'm sure 161 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:07,200 Speaker 1: people coming back and forth trying to figure out what 162 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:10,560 Speaker 1: happened to their belongings. Let's talk about the racial tension 163 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:12,960 Speaker 1: in the city, because you know, I'm sure there is 164 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:15,760 Speaker 1: a before and an after. What is the before of 165 00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:18,959 Speaker 1: Hurricane Katrina and the racial tensions there. 166 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:21,880 Speaker 2: Well, people were not coming back into the city at 167 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:25,079 Speaker 2: this point. The city was walled off. So by this 168 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:27,880 Speaker 2: point it's becoming more and more clear that the city 169 00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:30,679 Speaker 2: is not going to be rebuilt. So you're actually seeing 170 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:33,480 Speaker 2: a one way movement out of town at this point, 171 00:09:33,559 --> 00:09:36,920 Speaker 2: with increased efforts to get people out. Now, those people 172 00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:39,600 Speaker 2: who are trying to leave around day three, day four 173 00:09:39,760 --> 00:09:44,080 Speaker 2: are predominantly black, predominantly lower income, and there's a lot 174 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:47,560 Speaker 2: of tension between the police force. So you've got the 175 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:50,560 Speaker 2: police force who very much believes that their job is 176 00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:54,120 Speaker 2: to keep this community safe, to prevent crime, to hunker down, 177 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:57,360 Speaker 2: and I think the prevailing view of many officers in 178 00:09:57,400 --> 00:09:59,280 Speaker 2: the aftermath of the storm was very much in us 179 00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:03,480 Speaker 2: versus them. There was a sense that you should have left. 180 00:10:03,880 --> 00:10:07,839 Speaker 2: There was a mandatory evacuation order, there were buses, there 181 00:10:07,840 --> 00:10:11,839 Speaker 2: were opportunities for people to leave, and the prevailing mindset 182 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:14,520 Speaker 2: of many of the officers who remained was if you remained, 183 00:10:14,720 --> 00:10:16,559 Speaker 2: that was because you wanted to stir stuff up and 184 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:20,280 Speaker 2: cause trouble. And so there was an immediate creation of 185 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:23,559 Speaker 2: tension between the police and the people who remained, who 186 00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:26,000 Speaker 2: are predominantly black. But this is not so much a 187 00:10:26,040 --> 00:10:28,959 Speaker 2: white and black issue. The police force at that point 188 00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:32,600 Speaker 2: is very integrated. There's many black officers who are part 189 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:34,920 Speaker 2: of New Orleans. There are white officers who are part 190 00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:37,560 Speaker 2: of the New Orleans Police Department. But the tension that 191 00:10:37,640 --> 00:10:40,000 Speaker 2: follows in the days after Hurricane Katrina are very much 192 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:42,960 Speaker 2: a black and blue story. The story of the blue 193 00:10:43,160 --> 00:10:47,080 Speaker 2: the police against the civilians who remained behind. Now in 194 00:10:47,120 --> 00:10:49,440 Speaker 2: defense of the police department, many of the people that 195 00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:51,640 Speaker 2: they are also saving, that they are rescuing off of 196 00:10:51,720 --> 00:10:54,800 Speaker 2: rooftops that they are transporting to different but are also black. 197 00:10:55,080 --> 00:10:56,920 Speaker 2: Those are the people who are they are saving because 198 00:10:56,920 --> 00:10:58,880 Speaker 2: those are the people who are in the city. And 199 00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:02,880 Speaker 2: so you see different reactions between the police department and 200 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:07,240 Speaker 2: the civilians who remain depending on the context. But I 201 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:09,960 Speaker 2: think as more and more time passed after the storm, 202 00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:12,760 Speaker 2: the predominant feeling was that if you stayed, it was 203 00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:15,320 Speaker 2: because you were here to commit crimes and cause trouble. 204 00:11:15,840 --> 00:11:19,280 Speaker 1: Well, you mentioned Henry Glover, who is the victim in 205 00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:22,040 Speaker 1: this case. So tell me as much as you can 206 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:25,800 Speaker 1: about Henry and his family. You talked about them hunkering down, 207 00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:27,360 Speaker 1: they didn't have the money to leave, They didn't have 208 00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:30,719 Speaker 1: the cars to leave. But before Katrina, what is his 209 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:33,439 Speaker 1: family like? What is he like? What's his family dynamic? 210 00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:36,439 Speaker 2: So? Henry Glover is a thirty one year old black 211 00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:39,080 Speaker 2: man who had grown up and spent his whole life 212 00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:41,480 Speaker 2: in Algiers in New Orleans. He grew up in the 213 00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:46,160 Speaker 2: Fisher Projects, which was one of the low income housing 214 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:50,240 Speaker 2: projects in New Orleans where where life is rough. There's 215 00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:54,760 Speaker 2: a long history of tension between the police and this community. 216 00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:58,960 Speaker 2: Henry worked two jobs, he had kids. He's one of 217 00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:03,320 Speaker 2: five children. His mother, Edna Glover, was the matriarch keeping 218 00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:06,920 Speaker 2: the house together. He was known for fixing electronics and 219 00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:10,200 Speaker 2: the ability to fix things, and people came to him 220 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:11,920 Speaker 2: for help and he did what he could. But he 221 00:12:11,960 --> 00:12:14,480 Speaker 2: was lower income. He didn't have much savings. He didn't 222 00:12:14,559 --> 00:12:18,520 Speaker 2: have a whole lot of opportunities, and he decided he 223 00:12:18,559 --> 00:12:20,679 Speaker 2: needed to stick around New Orleans because there wasn't much 224 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:21,400 Speaker 2: of a way out. 225 00:12:21,559 --> 00:12:23,760 Speaker 1: How big is this family that's actually living in the 226 00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:24,760 Speaker 1: house during Katrina. 227 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:27,800 Speaker 2: Well, there's a group of about twelve of them in 228 00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:30,720 Speaker 2: a few different apartments. It's Henry and his girlfriend and 229 00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:34,960 Speaker 2: their daughter, and then his sister, Patrice and her boyfriend 230 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:38,600 Speaker 2: and their two children, and then his brother Edward and 231 00:12:38,679 --> 00:12:41,200 Speaker 2: his wife and their children, and so they all live 232 00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:45,360 Speaker 2: in different apartments, but in this one neighborhood quite close 233 00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:46,000 Speaker 2: to each other. 234 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:48,360 Speaker 1: Did you get to talk to his family for your book? 235 00:12:48,520 --> 00:12:50,040 Speaker 2: I got to talk to his family a number of 236 00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:50,960 Speaker 2: times over the years. 237 00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:54,720 Speaker 1: So let's talk a little bit about his personality, because 238 00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:56,640 Speaker 1: I'm sure that one of the things they must have 239 00:12:56,679 --> 00:12:59,960 Speaker 1: emphasized to you is just you know Henry as a person, 240 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:01,880 Speaker 1: and what a loss he was to the family. You 241 00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:03,640 Speaker 1: mentioned he has a girlfriend and a little girl. 242 00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:07,480 Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean from all reports of the people who 243 00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:11,080 Speaker 2: knew him best, he was a loving guy. He was funny, 244 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:14,320 Speaker 2: he was helpful, he was working hard to try to 245 00:13:14,360 --> 00:13:17,280 Speaker 2: support his family. I think what I would hear over 246 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:19,480 Speaker 2: and over again from his family members is just what 247 00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:22,280 Speaker 2: a carrying guy he was. You know, he grew up 248 00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:25,960 Speaker 2: in this neighborhood in Algiers and the Fisher Projects, and 249 00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:28,480 Speaker 2: early in his life had a number of run ins 250 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:32,040 Speaker 2: with the police for low level for low level crimes. 251 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:34,520 Speaker 2: But by the time he's thirty one in Hurricane Katrina hits, 252 00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:38,440 Speaker 2: he's basically got his life together and he's trying to 253 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:41,360 Speaker 2: he's trying to do the best he can with the 254 00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:42,319 Speaker 2: cards he's been dealt. 255 00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:44,560 Speaker 1: So that was going to be my next question because 256 00:13:44,559 --> 00:13:46,400 Speaker 1: I was thinking to myself, a thirty one year old 257 00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:49,680 Speaker 1: black man in New Orleans in this time period had 258 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:52,720 Speaker 1: to have, of course, had interactions with the police. What 259 00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:56,080 Speaker 1: did his family say those were like those interactions for 260 00:13:56,160 --> 00:13:57,040 Speaker 1: him specifically? 261 00:13:57,679 --> 00:13:59,880 Speaker 2: Well, I mean, the first story that we hear come 262 00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:02,560 Speaker 2: from a period of time in New Orleans known as 263 00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:06,280 Speaker 2: the Algiers seven. There was a police officer who was killed, 264 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:09,560 Speaker 2: and I want to say it was nineteen eighty and 265 00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:12,960 Speaker 2: the police believed that it had happened in Algiers and 266 00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:17,320 Speaker 2: so they sent a bunch of forces into the projects. 267 00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:20,400 Speaker 2: They killed four people, they committed all sorts of civil 268 00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:23,160 Speaker 2: rights violations. And at that point, Henry was two years old. 269 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:26,200 Speaker 2: So this is the context with which he is growing up. 270 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:29,480 Speaker 2: And his sister said, you know, she remembered his older sister, 271 00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:32,400 Speaker 2: since she remembered the police busting down and hearing all 272 00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:34,880 Speaker 2: the yelling in the background, and there's a mom holding 273 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:37,520 Speaker 2: little Henry in her arms. Now, over the years, you 274 00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:41,920 Speaker 2: just look at the lack of opportunity in that particular neighborhood, 275 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:44,920 Speaker 2: there's a lot of drugs, there's a lot of theft, 276 00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:49,360 Speaker 2: really a total lack of opportunity for most black kids 277 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:52,160 Speaker 2: growing up in that community. And so, you know, I 278 00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:55,800 Speaker 2: think Henry had a very similar childhood as many of 279 00:14:55,840 --> 00:14:58,560 Speaker 2: those people growing up in that space. That being said, 280 00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:02,720 Speaker 2: he's able to get a job, begin to support the family, 281 00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:04,520 Speaker 2: trying to settle down his life, and that's where he 282 00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:06,000 Speaker 2: is when Hurricane Katrina hits. 283 00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:12,760 Speaker 1: What does the family say to you that their experience 284 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:15,800 Speaker 1: was like with Katrina? I mean, was this just they 285 00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:18,640 Speaker 1: thought they were going to lose everything or I mean, 286 00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:21,120 Speaker 1: I know you said that Algiers is on higher ground, 287 00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:23,400 Speaker 1: but still it must have been petrifying for them. 288 00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:26,760 Speaker 2: Well, it's interesting. Henry's sister, Patrece, at the time, was 289 00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:31,960 Speaker 2: working for Harri's Casino, which is in downtown. Harri's Casino 290 00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:35,680 Speaker 2: put her and her boyfriend, Bernard Callaway, and their children 291 00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:40,080 Speaker 2: and mother Edna Glover, and so they're all staying downtown 292 00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:44,080 Speaker 2: when the storm hits. Storm hits, it's breaking windows. It's 293 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:47,960 Speaker 2: certainly a scary experience. But when the storm passes, everyone 294 00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:50,760 Speaker 2: thought that they had survived it. Everyone thought that they 295 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:53,080 Speaker 2: had endured the storm, and that they would go back 296 00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:55,000 Speaker 2: on their way, so they actually leave downtown. They go 297 00:15:55,120 --> 00:15:58,640 Speaker 2: back to Algiers. So Algiers is separated from downtown by 298 00:15:58,640 --> 00:16:00,840 Speaker 2: a bridge, so they cross the bridge back. They go 299 00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:05,080 Speaker 2: to their home. They find some damage. Water's out, electricities out. 300 00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:08,240 Speaker 2: But their assumption at that time was that, yeah, this 301 00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:10,440 Speaker 2: is part for the course for a hurricane in New Orleans. 302 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:12,720 Speaker 2: The electric and the water will be back on in 303 00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:16,520 Speaker 2: a few days. That they had no idea that the 304 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:20,680 Speaker 2: levees had broken, and so the city begins to slowly 305 00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:23,960 Speaker 2: fill up over the course of that first day. So 306 00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:26,960 Speaker 2: for the people who had lived through the storm on 307 00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:30,920 Speaker 2: day one, they think that they're past it. Henry's family, 308 00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:33,920 Speaker 2: Patrece Edward King, they all think that they've beat it. 309 00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:37,200 Speaker 2: And as they get back home and they see the damage, 310 00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:39,240 Speaker 2: they think things are going to come back together. But 311 00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:41,640 Speaker 2: they're also cut off from communications for the rest of 312 00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:45,400 Speaker 2: the city, so they don't even know what's happening in 313 00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:47,120 Speaker 2: the rest of the city. Is it's beginning to fill 314 00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:49,680 Speaker 2: up with water and as law and orders beginning to 315 00:16:49,680 --> 00:16:50,160 Speaker 2: break down. 316 00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:53,080 Speaker 1: Explain to me about the levees. How long was this 317 00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:56,720 Speaker 1: process of the levees breaking from the end of the 318 00:16:56,880 --> 00:16:58,560 Speaker 1: storm when they think we're out of. 319 00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:01,680 Speaker 2: This, I think it's about twenty four hours takes place 320 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:03,280 Speaker 2: for the city to fill up. 321 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:06,119 Speaker 1: And so breakdown of communications. And I'm assuming you have 322 00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:10,000 Speaker 1: the state government, the city government, television stations if they're up, 323 00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:13,640 Speaker 1: anybody saying you need to stay out or stay safe 324 00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:15,520 Speaker 1: because there's more water coming. 325 00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:17,520 Speaker 2: And that we're not able to get to you. But 326 00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:20,040 Speaker 2: then you also have to take into account that it's 327 00:17:20,080 --> 00:17:23,240 Speaker 2: not like they're watching TV. And yes, the world is 328 00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:25,800 Speaker 2: being broadcast the story of what's happening in New Orleans, 329 00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:28,080 Speaker 2: but if you're in Algiers at this point, you're not 330 00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:31,600 Speaker 2: watching TV. Don't you have sporadic cell phone? And so 331 00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:35,280 Speaker 2: what was happening a lot is you're getting rumors coming in, 332 00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:39,960 Speaker 2: some of which sound true, some of which sound crazy. 333 00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:42,719 Speaker 2: But the rumors that were going around were that there 334 00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:45,600 Speaker 2: were mass murders and rapes taking place at the Superdome, 335 00:17:46,359 --> 00:17:49,280 Speaker 2: that people were just getting gunned down in the street. 336 00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:52,040 Speaker 2: A lot of those rumors just simply were not true, 337 00:17:52,520 --> 00:17:54,680 Speaker 2: but as they began to circulate not only among the 338 00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:57,760 Speaker 2: civilians but also among the police, the police believed they 339 00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:00,760 Speaker 2: were true. There was a police officer in Algier's point, 340 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:03,719 Speaker 2: who was in fact shot in the head and survived 341 00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:07,919 Speaker 2: by a group of looters. And so those stories are surfacing, 342 00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:12,320 Speaker 2: and so there's a lot of tensions as the days pass. 343 00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:17,320 Speaker 1: How prepared with equipment is the New Orleans Police Department. 344 00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:20,080 Speaker 1: Are they outfitted with boats? I wonder even they must 345 00:18:20,119 --> 00:18:22,920 Speaker 1: be outfitted with some boats. Now after all of. 346 00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:26,000 Speaker 2: That, they have some boats, but there are a lot 347 00:18:26,040 --> 00:18:29,919 Speaker 2: of stories of police officers bringing out their own boats, 348 00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:34,119 Speaker 2: people gathering up fishing boats, people finding canoes, finding whatever 349 00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:37,560 Speaker 2: was available. I think the department was certainly under equipped. 350 00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:41,200 Speaker 2: They were not equipped for this type of problem. Right. 351 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:44,119 Speaker 2: They did prepared for hurricanes. I don't think anyone was 352 00:18:44,160 --> 00:18:47,720 Speaker 2: anticipating eighty percent of the city being underwater, and so 353 00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:51,160 Speaker 2: people were doing the best they could, including using their 354 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:53,639 Speaker 2: own fishing boats to try to go rescue people. 355 00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:58,840 Speaker 1: So when Henry's sister returns to Algiers and returns to 356 00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:04,440 Speaker 1: the apartment, she finds everything wrecked wet, but nobody's panic 357 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:07,560 Speaker 1: Jeck because they don't know about the levies. Where is Henry? 358 00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:08,080 Speaker 1: Is he there? 359 00:19:08,119 --> 00:19:11,480 Speaker 2: At this point, Henry is in a different apartment complex 360 00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:15,200 Speaker 2: across the street. He stayed behind. He stayed in Algiers 361 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:18,439 Speaker 2: wrote it out there. By this point, on September second, 362 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:22,240 Speaker 2: now Patrece and her boyfriend Bernard have returned back home. 363 00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:25,800 Speaker 2: Edna Glover has now been evacuated out. She needed to 364 00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:28,119 Speaker 2: get out because she was running out of her own medicine, 365 00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:31,159 Speaker 2: and so there was an increasing sense of Okay, we 366 00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:33,840 Speaker 2: need to figure out a way out of this place. 367 00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:36,719 Speaker 2: And on September second, the family had finally decided, all right, 368 00:19:36,760 --> 00:19:38,400 Speaker 2: it's time for us to leave. We need to get 369 00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:38,920 Speaker 2: out of here. 370 00:19:39,119 --> 00:19:40,800 Speaker 1: Now. How would they be able to do that if 371 00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:43,240 Speaker 1: they didn't have enough cars to haul them out the 372 00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:43,840 Speaker 1: first time? 373 00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:48,680 Speaker 2: So there was one car, a small compact Kia, and 374 00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:52,840 Speaker 2: Henry then went to a Firestone Auto Parts star and 375 00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:56,280 Speaker 2: stole a truck, and the plan was that they were 376 00:19:56,320 --> 00:19:57,639 Speaker 2: going to evacuate the family. 377 00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:00,359 Speaker 1: Is this the case with Henry stealing the truck of 378 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:04,040 Speaker 1: just like there were no other options? I mean, I imagine 379 00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:05,439 Speaker 1: that's what you would say, right Or is that the 380 00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:07,240 Speaker 1: way that his family framed it. It's just like we're 381 00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:08,879 Speaker 1: going to do anything we can to get out of 382 00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:10,160 Speaker 1: here because it's life and death. 383 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:14,400 Speaker 2: That is certainly the sense that I got from knowing them. 384 00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:17,280 Speaker 2: Over that time period is they didn't know how to 385 00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:21,639 Speaker 2: get out again, they're cut off from from radio communications. Now, 386 00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:24,760 Speaker 2: people in government and law enforcement said, well, there's Algier's 387 00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:27,280 Speaker 2: Points as evacuation point, not very far away. Why didn't 388 00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:30,080 Speaker 2: they just walk there? Well, you know, that's easy to 389 00:20:30,119 --> 00:20:34,440 Speaker 2: say after the fact. But the plan was Edna Henry's 390 00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:37,560 Speaker 2: mother had already gone to Texas and the goal was 391 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:39,800 Speaker 2: to try to get the entire family together and go 392 00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:41,920 Speaker 2: drive to met her. So between the truck and between 393 00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:44,720 Speaker 2: the Kia, they were going to be able to evacuate together. 394 00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:46,639 Speaker 1: There were an awful lot of people I know who 395 00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:49,160 Speaker 1: ended up in Houston, just because I was here during 396 00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:52,120 Speaker 1: that time period. So yeah, so a lot of people 397 00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:54,439 Speaker 1: were sure. So Edna's mom went to Texas, Did she 398 00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:55,720 Speaker 1: go to Houston or that area? 399 00:20:56,080 --> 00:20:57,840 Speaker 2: I want to say she went to Houston as possible, 400 00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:00,440 Speaker 2: they went to Dallas, but they went one of those 401 00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:01,080 Speaker 2: two places. 402 00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:03,720 Speaker 1: Okay, So Henry has a truck and then they have 403 00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:07,000 Speaker 1: this little tiny Kia. What happens next they all pile 404 00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:08,280 Speaker 1: in and start to head out. 405 00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:12,960 Speaker 2: Well, Henry is going to gather up his stuff from 406 00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:15,159 Speaker 2: his apartment and his plan is to come back and 407 00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:17,320 Speaker 2: gather up everyone else's stuff, and then they're going to 408 00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:21,560 Speaker 2: drive off together. But before they do that, as Henry 409 00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:24,159 Speaker 2: is driving to his apartment, he runs into a family friend. 410 00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:27,959 Speaker 2: That family friend says to him, Hey, we've got some 411 00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:31,120 Speaker 2: stuff that we had just taken from a store, some suitcases, 412 00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:33,720 Speaker 2: some other items that we're going to need for our evacuation. 413 00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:36,680 Speaker 2: Can you go with your truck and pick them up 414 00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:40,240 Speaker 2: in Henry, a good hearted guy, says sure, absolutely, no problem. 415 00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:43,720 Speaker 2: In him and Bernard Calloway, who is his good friend 416 00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:47,119 Speaker 2: and his sister's boyfriend, they go back to the strip 417 00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:50,280 Speaker 2: mall with the truck to try to retrieve those items. 418 00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:53,199 Speaker 1: Okay, so do they make it that far? They make 419 00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:54,640 Speaker 1: it all the way over to the strip mall. 420 00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:57,280 Speaker 2: They make it to the strip mall, they park the car, 421 00:21:57,440 --> 00:21:59,840 Speaker 2: Henry sees the items that he's supposed to pick up. 422 00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:02,760 Speaker 2: Bernard says, Hey, I got it. I'm going to go 423 00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:05,280 Speaker 2: pick him up. He goes to the back and starts 424 00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:07,439 Speaker 2: loading items up in the truck when they hear a 425 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:10,520 Speaker 2: voice that says something to the effect of leave now, 426 00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:14,720 Speaker 2: and both Henry and Bernard take off running. Very Shortly after, 427 00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:18,919 Speaker 2: a single shot fires through the air. Hitting Henry in 428 00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:22,560 Speaker 2: the back. Henry collapses on the ground, and at that 429 00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:24,960 Speaker 2: point Bernard is scrambling what to do. We need to 430 00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:25,760 Speaker 2: get Henry help. 431 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:29,639 Speaker 1: So does Bernard stay or does he run? And I 432 00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:31,320 Speaker 1: don't know the right answer to that. 433 00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:36,920 Speaker 2: Bernard runs. He goes back to his apartment, He finds Patrese, 434 00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:40,560 Speaker 2: Henry's sister, He finds Edward, Henry's brother, and says, we 435 00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:43,680 Speaker 2: need to get help, because you've got to remember there 436 00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:47,240 Speaker 2: are very few resources in this community at this point, 437 00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:49,160 Speaker 2: and so the idea of how do you even get 438 00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:52,359 Speaker 2: help for this man who has been shot? Bernard doesn't 439 00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:54,919 Speaker 2: know what to do. So he gathers up Edward and 440 00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:58,000 Speaker 2: he gathers up Patrese and they begin to come back 441 00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:00,359 Speaker 2: to the Strip Mall to try to give Henry had help. 442 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:04,800 Speaker 2: In the meantime, Edward flags down a man named William Tanner. 443 00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:08,160 Speaker 2: William Tanner is driving around in the neighborhood. He's trying 444 00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:11,000 Speaker 2: to get gasoline for his car so that he can 445 00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:13,719 Speaker 2: evacuate the city. But at this point all of the 446 00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:16,200 Speaker 2: gas stations have been taken over by the police as well, 447 00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:19,840 Speaker 2: and so Tanner doesn't know quite what to do. But 448 00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:23,400 Speaker 2: Edward flags him down, drives over to the scene where 449 00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:26,560 Speaker 2: Henry is bleeding out in the street, and they load 450 00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:30,439 Speaker 2: up Henry. And so the three men Edward the brother, 451 00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:34,200 Speaker 2: Bernard the best friend, and William Tanner, who we call 452 00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:37,000 Speaker 2: the good Samaritan, the stranger who is helping this man 453 00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:41,000 Speaker 2: in need. They load up Henry into his Chevy Malibu 454 00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:42,440 Speaker 2: and they begin to go look for help. 455 00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:46,080 Speaker 1: That's incredible that William Tanner stopped. I mean, I don't 456 00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:48,680 Speaker 1: know how many people would actually do that. So he 457 00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:50,639 Speaker 1: just stopped for a stranger. 458 00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:53,080 Speaker 2: He doesn't know these guys. I mean, when I first 459 00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:56,000 Speaker 2: heard this story and I first met William Tanner, I 460 00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:59,360 Speaker 2: found that so hard to believe. How is it possible 461 00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:03,879 Speaker 2: that he's stopped during this really, really tense period of 462 00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:07,159 Speaker 2: unrest in the city to take a stranger who is 463 00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:09,440 Speaker 2: bleeding profusely, load him in his car and try to 464 00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:11,800 Speaker 2: find help. But that's what William Tanner does, and they 465 00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:13,159 Speaker 2: try to go find help for Henry. 466 00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:16,760 Speaker 1: So what happens next. You've got poor Henry bouncing around 467 00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:19,800 Speaker 1: in the back of this vehicle and they're desperately looking 468 00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:23,040 Speaker 1: for something. The hospitals are they open or are their 469 00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:23,840 Speaker 1: ears open? 470 00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:29,440 Speaker 2: Well? There's one hospital about fifteen minutes away in Jefferson Parish, Louisiana, 471 00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:31,960 Speaker 2: which is adjacent to this part of New Orleans. But 472 00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:35,960 Speaker 2: at that time, the sheriff of Jefferson Parish has basically 473 00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:38,560 Speaker 2: said we don't want any New Orleans riff raff come 474 00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:42,440 Speaker 2: into town, and William Tanner, the Good Samaritan, said, there's 475 00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:44,680 Speaker 2: no way we're going to be able to make it 476 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:47,119 Speaker 2: to the hospital in time to get Henry help. Not 477 00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:49,639 Speaker 2: very far from the Strip Mall, there was also an 478 00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:53,399 Speaker 2: elementary school, and in the days after Hurricane Katrina, this 479 00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:56,639 Speaker 2: elementary school has been taken over by the New Orleans 480 00:24:56,680 --> 00:25:00,000 Speaker 2: swat team. William Tanner, the Good Samaritan, the day before 481 00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:03,760 Speaker 2: is driving around trying to figure out some gas and 482 00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:06,320 Speaker 2: he sees what he believes to be medical supplies at 483 00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:09,080 Speaker 2: the elementary school because that's where the swat team was based. 484 00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:12,280 Speaker 2: On that very same day, he also jump started the 485 00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:15,119 Speaker 2: car of a police officer who had been stranded, and 486 00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:18,320 Speaker 2: so he believed that this would be a place that 487 00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:21,040 Speaker 2: they could go and possibly find help for Henry Glover. 488 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:24,000 Speaker 1: Okay, so tell me what happens next they head over there, 489 00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:25,640 Speaker 1: and what ends up happening. 490 00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:28,840 Speaker 2: Well, they pull up to the elementary school and immediately 491 00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:32,600 Speaker 2: are met by the SWAT team and other police officers 492 00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:36,000 Speaker 2: who are armed to the teeth. The three non wounded 493 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:38,280 Speaker 2: men are taken out of the car handcuffed. Over the 494 00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:40,640 Speaker 2: course of the next hour or two, they allege there 495 00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:43,480 Speaker 2: beaten by the police, while Henry is left to bleed 496 00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:44,639 Speaker 2: out in the back of the car. 497 00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:47,119 Speaker 1: So he is in the back of is it a 498 00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:48,720 Speaker 1: police car or what car? 499 00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:50,960 Speaker 2: Is it? No, he's still in the back of Tanner's 500 00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:52,160 Speaker 2: Chevy Malibu. 501 00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:57,040 Speaker 1: So they are arrested under what pretense? What is the charge? 502 00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:01,439 Speaker 2: They're not really charged with anything the police is claiming. 503 00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:04,439 Speaker 2: They're trying to understand what's happening. There's so much unknown 504 00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:07,240 Speaker 2: and so much uncertainty. You've got three men who come 505 00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:10,440 Speaker 2: they show up. The police don't understand why they would 506 00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:15,000 Speaker 2: possibly be at this elementary school, and they don't take 507 00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:17,760 Speaker 2: too kindly to these civilians showing up at their home 508 00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:20,439 Speaker 2: because at that point, not only is it their base, 509 00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:22,760 Speaker 2: it's where they're keeping their armory, it's where they're keeping 510 00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:25,040 Speaker 2: their cars, it's where they're keeping their boats, but it's 511 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:28,040 Speaker 2: also where everyone's living. So the swat team is about 512 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:32,159 Speaker 2: sixty people large at that time, and everyone is living 513 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:35,320 Speaker 2: at this elementary school, and so when the car pulls up, 514 00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:37,840 Speaker 2: they're in the middle of this shift change. So some 515 00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:40,240 Speaker 2: of the SWAT team is coming in. Some of the 516 00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:42,399 Speaker 2: swat teams about to go out for the day, but 517 00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:45,359 Speaker 2: they do not respond very well to these three men 518 00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:47,959 Speaker 2: with the bleeding man in the back coming to their school. 519 00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:52,800 Speaker 1: So you have Patrice back at Bernard and her apartment 520 00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:56,640 Speaker 1: waiting for her boyfriend and her brother to come back 521 00:26:56,680 --> 00:27:00,119 Speaker 1: with supply so they can go. At what point, and 522 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:03,760 Speaker 1: I imagine it's pretty quick, does she realize something happened 523 00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:04,920 Speaker 1: and it didn't go well. 524 00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:08,440 Speaker 2: Well, she doesn't know. She's wandering around trying to find 525 00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:12,040 Speaker 2: out what happens. At some point she's still at the 526 00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:16,160 Speaker 2: Strip Mall waiting for information, and other police officers show 527 00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:19,800 Speaker 2: up at the Strip Mall. They're told to evacuate in 528 00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:23,080 Speaker 2: not the nicest terms. They're told to get back to 529 00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:26,119 Speaker 2: go away. And there was a belief at that time 530 00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:28,480 Speaker 2: that it was a police officer who shot Henry. No 531 00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:30,600 Speaker 2: one had seen who had shot Henry. No one knew 532 00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:33,639 Speaker 2: for sure. But on the second floor of this strip 533 00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:37,520 Speaker 2: Mall was a New Orleans Police Department substation where the 534 00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:41,280 Speaker 2: fourth District, which policed this part of New Orleans, had 535 00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:46,240 Speaker 2: an investigative office, So there was an idea that perhaps 536 00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:48,960 Speaker 2: the police might have shot them. But when those accusations 537 00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:52,080 Speaker 2: were made at the scene, Patrese and the civilians that 538 00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:54,920 Speaker 2: had gathered nearby were threatened by the police and quickly 539 00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:57,280 Speaker 2: evacuated and went back to their homes to wait for 540 00:27:57,400 --> 00:27:58,879 Speaker 2: word about what to do next. 541 00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:02,520 Speaker 1: And at what point Bernard and William Tanner. When are 542 00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:05,000 Speaker 1: they released or when does it become clear that they 543 00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:08,679 Speaker 1: were not responsible for killing Henry Something else happened well. 544 00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:11,399 Speaker 2: The three men are detained at the school for about 545 00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:14,960 Speaker 2: two hours. During the time period, what the three men 546 00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:19,439 Speaker 2: say is they see an officer jump into the Chevy Malibu. 547 00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:24,520 Speaker 2: This officer has two road flares and he drives off 548 00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:27,000 Speaker 2: with Henry's body in the car, and he's followed by 549 00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:29,359 Speaker 2: a truck. That's all they know is that they see 550 00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:34,119 Speaker 2: the police driving off with Henry's body a few hours later. Initially, 551 00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:38,720 Speaker 2: William Tanner is released. First, he sees the woman whose 552 00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:42,640 Speaker 2: car he had jumped on the previous occasion, and this 553 00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:46,040 Speaker 2: woman says, yeah, I know this guy, and the police 554 00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:48,760 Speaker 2: let him go. So William Tanner leaves first, and he 555 00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:51,960 Speaker 2: goes back and he tells patrese in the family about 556 00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:54,800 Speaker 2: what had happened. A number of minutes after that, Edward 557 00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:59,560 Speaker 2: and Bernard are also released with no charges. They're told 558 00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:02,880 Speaker 2: that Henry's body is under investigation, but they're also told 559 00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:04,800 Speaker 2: leave New Orleans now and never come back. 560 00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:07,560 Speaker 1: Do they have a point of contact at all? I 561 00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:10,760 Speaker 1: guess about Henry? How are they meant to figure out 562 00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:14,200 Speaker 1: what happened to their brother, to this man? 563 00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:18,080 Speaker 2: Well, they don't get any information. They do everything they 564 00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:20,840 Speaker 2: can to try to locate what happened to Henry. They 565 00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:23,959 Speaker 2: call the Morgue, they call the coroner's office. They're calling 566 00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:28,360 Speaker 2: the police department. There's a headquarters, there's the fourth District station. 567 00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:31,760 Speaker 2: They're trying to call everyone they can, but they're getting 568 00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:33,840 Speaker 2: no answers about what happened to Henry. 569 00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:38,400 Speaker 1: At what point do they find out what actually happened 570 00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:42,680 Speaker 1: after Henry was driven off dying or dead in this 571 00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:45,080 Speaker 1: Chevy Malibu by a police officer. 572 00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:49,560 Speaker 2: Well, it's about seven months later that they learn that 573 00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:54,400 Speaker 2: Henry's remains, his burnt remains are found in a Chevy 574 00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:58,320 Speaker 2: Malibu on the levee, not far from the fourth District 575 00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:01,920 Speaker 2: Police station. So about seven months later they learned for 576 00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:04,360 Speaker 2: the first time Henry is in fact dead. His body 577 00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:07,840 Speaker 2: has been burned. But they get no information from the 578 00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:09,840 Speaker 2: police as to what happened or why. 579 00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:13,160 Speaker 1: What are they here? Just yeah, you know, a couple 580 00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:15,880 Speaker 1: days later we found his body. Or are they even 581 00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:19,640 Speaker 1: giving context on when it was discovered, under what circumstances 582 00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:20,440 Speaker 1: it was discovered. 583 00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:23,160 Speaker 2: No, they're not getting any of that information. So Henry 584 00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:27,640 Speaker 2: is killed on September second, his body isn't collected until 585 00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:31,640 Speaker 2: September sixteenth, two weeks later. Part of that is because 586 00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:35,160 Speaker 2: there just is no ability to deal with all of 587 00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:37,800 Speaker 2: the human remains. As I mentioned, eighteen hundred people died 588 00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:42,200 Speaker 2: in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina. The morgue was overwhelmed. 589 00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:45,719 Speaker 2: There were not collection services to go pick up bodies, 590 00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:49,200 Speaker 2: so it wasn't until federal resources began pouring in over 591 00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:52,120 Speaker 2: the following weeks that the body was even collected. By 592 00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:55,600 Speaker 2: the time Henry's body was collected, his skull was missing, 593 00:30:56,280 --> 00:31:01,000 Speaker 2: very few identifiable pieces of his skeleton remains, but it 594 00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:03,320 Speaker 2: was enough to identify him through DNA. 595 00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:06,920 Speaker 1: So obviously, when the family finds out seven months later, 596 00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:11,040 Speaker 1: what happens next? What can the family do about this? 597 00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:14,560 Speaker 2: They just continue calling and calling and calling, and they 598 00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:18,720 Speaker 2: don't get any answers, and eventually somewhat give up. They 599 00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:21,240 Speaker 2: give up and they just accept the idea they probably 600 00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:22,800 Speaker 2: will never know what happened to Henry? 601 00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:27,560 Speaker 1: Is this when the young federal prosecutor who specializes in 602 00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:31,720 Speaker 1: civil rights cases finds the case on his desk and 603 00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:33,360 Speaker 1: decides to pursue it. 604 00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:37,480 Speaker 2: Yes, So there was an investigative journalist named A. C. 605 00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:41,800 Speaker 2: Thompson who worked for Pro Publica, and he wrote an 606 00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:47,440 Speaker 2: article recounting William Tanner's account of these last hours of Henry. 607 00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:50,640 Speaker 2: And so he tells William Tanner's story of rescuing this 608 00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:52,720 Speaker 2: man who had been shod trying to get help, being 609 00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:55,600 Speaker 2: beaten by the police, and how the police then drove 610 00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:58,000 Speaker 2: off with Henry's body and they were the last ones 611 00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:01,040 Speaker 2: to see him. So he publishes is this piece in 612 00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:04,120 Speaker 2: the nation and it winds up on my desk as 613 00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:07,480 Speaker 2: a rookie prosecutor at the DOJ at the time. My 614 00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:09,760 Speaker 2: boss said, you know, I don't know if there's anything 615 00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:13,240 Speaker 2: to it, but it's worth investigating, and so they sent 616 00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:16,400 Speaker 2: me down from Washington down to New Orleans. I teamed 617 00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:19,640 Speaker 2: up with a rookie FBI agent, a young African American 618 00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:22,400 Speaker 2: woman named Ashley Johnson, who was also at the beginning 619 00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:24,880 Speaker 2: of her career, and the two of us teamed up 620 00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:27,240 Speaker 2: to try to figure out war in fact, the police 621 00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:28,320 Speaker 2: involved with what happened. 622 00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:32,280 Speaker 1: Had you done anything on this scale before? I can't 623 00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:36,120 Speaker 1: imagine you hadn't. If you were really this young rookie prosecutor, 624 00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:37,440 Speaker 1: this must have been terrifying. 625 00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:40,280 Speaker 2: Well, I had done a lot of cases inside prisons. 626 00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:44,120 Speaker 2: My office also investigated abuse that takes place in jails 627 00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:47,000 Speaker 2: and prisons around the country, and so for the first 628 00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:49,120 Speaker 2: two years of my time at DJ that's what I did. 629 00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:53,640 Speaker 2: I traveled around to jails and Tennessee and Texas and 630 00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:57,120 Speaker 2: North Carolina and investigated allegations of abuse. So I was 631 00:32:57,480 --> 00:33:00,360 Speaker 2: familiar with the statutes I was used to invest getting 632 00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:04,480 Speaker 2: law enforcement, but nothing of the scale that was involved here. 633 00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:08,080 Speaker 2: And in all the many cases I investigated after this, 634 00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:11,680 Speaker 2: I never investigated another one that was quite as complex 635 00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:13,400 Speaker 2: and uncertain as this one. 636 00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:16,480 Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about that article that you initially read. 637 00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:20,120 Speaker 1: I cannot believe after what he went through, that William 638 00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:23,880 Speaker 1: Tanner was willing to talk about this case to a 639 00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:27,240 Speaker 1: national outlet. That must have been terrifying for him. I 640 00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:29,800 Speaker 1: can't imagine he wouldn't have been afraid. Don't you think 641 00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:31,880 Speaker 1: of some sort of retribution from the police. 642 00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:36,640 Speaker 2: William Tanner is a very very special man. I don't 643 00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:38,840 Speaker 2: know that I've met many people like them over the 644 00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:42,240 Speaker 2: course of my life. He is a good Samaritan in heart. 645 00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:46,200 Speaker 2: He seems to me as a man who feels no fear. Yeah, 646 00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:51,160 Speaker 2: he's very eccentric. He's a fun guy to hang out with, 647 00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:55,640 Speaker 2: and he wanted something to happen. Now. One of the 648 00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:58,280 Speaker 2: things that also was a part of Tanner's incentive was 649 00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:01,920 Speaker 2: Tanner had been paying down his car. So after his 650 00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:05,320 Speaker 2: car gets taken and burned, he's still paying down the 651 00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:07,640 Speaker 2: note and he goes to his insurance company and he says, 652 00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:10,440 Speaker 2: the police stole my car, And what the insurance company 653 00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:12,359 Speaker 2: tells him is, well, when the police take your car, 654 00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:16,719 Speaker 2: it's not stealing. So Tanner continues to pay down the 655 00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:19,480 Speaker 2: note on his car for three and a half years, 656 00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:22,839 Speaker 2: and in two thousand and nine he'd finally paid off 657 00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:25,960 Speaker 2: the note, which in his mind then gave him a 658 00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:28,560 Speaker 2: little bit more freedom to talk about what happened to him. 659 00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:31,280 Speaker 2: So he goes to Ac Thompson, he tells his story 660 00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:34,440 Speaker 2: to him, and simultaneously he comes to the FBI and 661 00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:38,360 Speaker 2: begins reporting what happened to him. Then and Tanner brings 662 00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:41,000 Speaker 2: this case out of the shadows after three and a 663 00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:41,560 Speaker 2: half years. 664 00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:44,800 Speaker 1: So you start to get involved, you and the FBI 665 00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:47,759 Speaker 1: agent Ashley Johnson, and you all start to dig in. 666 00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:52,040 Speaker 1: Do you have any reticence from the black community in 667 00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:54,960 Speaker 1: Algiers when you start digging around with this case once again, 668 00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:59,360 Speaker 1: or do people really want to talk about it? Despite 669 00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:03,399 Speaker 1: I'm sure the ever present tensions with the police, we. 670 00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:07,160 Speaker 2: Did reticence from everyone. I mean, whether or not you're 671 00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:09,880 Speaker 2: a civilian, whether or not you are a police officer, 672 00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:14,800 Speaker 2: whether or not you saw wrongdoing. But we're totally innocent yourself, 673 00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:17,600 Speaker 2: whether or not you were a co conspirator. All of 674 00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:21,600 Speaker 2: those people wanted to keep the ghosts of Katrina locked 675 00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:23,800 Speaker 2: and buried, and so Ashley and I were at a 676 00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:27,840 Speaker 2: huge disadvantage. We were outsiders. Ashley's from Mobile, Alabama. I 677 00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:30,520 Speaker 2: grew up in Atlanta, Georgia. We were not in New 678 00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:33,920 Speaker 2: Orleans in the aftermath of the storm. Time and time again, 679 00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:36,319 Speaker 2: people would ask us were we are and we'd say no, 680 00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:39,680 Speaker 2: and overwhelmingly they would say, well, if you weren't here, 681 00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:43,160 Speaker 2: then you cannot understand. The message that we were getting 682 00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:46,880 Speaker 2: was that you can't bring in your modern day justice 683 00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:49,400 Speaker 2: to try to respond to the tragedy that was Katrina, 684 00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:52,800 Speaker 2: and that we should best leave it alone post Katrina. 685 00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:56,440 Speaker 1: What is the relationship like between the people in Algiers 686 00:35:56,760 --> 00:36:00,520 Speaker 1: and the police, particularly when the information comes out about 687 00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:03,920 Speaker 1: Henry Glover being found in the burned out Chevy Malibu. 688 00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:07,800 Speaker 2: Well, you know, as the days pass after September second, 689 00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:11,600 Speaker 2: there are even fewer people left, So the message is 690 00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:13,520 Speaker 2: becoming more and more clear that you need to leave. 691 00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:16,240 Speaker 2: The city is not coming back. So there's a period 692 00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:19,360 Speaker 2: of months where there's very few people back. There aren't 693 00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:22,360 Speaker 2: a whole lot of people asking questions. People knew about 694 00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:25,000 Speaker 2: the burned out body behind the levee. We would meet 695 00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:27,759 Speaker 2: scores and scores of people who had seen it. But 696 00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:31,640 Speaker 2: what exactly happened and who was this man and why 697 00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:34,160 Speaker 2: did it happen? I think we're murky to a lot 698 00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:37,120 Speaker 2: of people. They might not have known his name, but 699 00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:39,160 Speaker 2: a lot of people knew about the burned body behind 700 00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:39,720 Speaker 2: the levee. 701 00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:42,160 Speaker 1: So you guys are being shut out your neutral which 702 00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:46,200 Speaker 1: is great, but he really it would be probably more 703 00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:49,480 Speaker 1: helpful to you to have an inside track. Where do 704 00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:53,719 Speaker 1: you finally get a foothold in this case before both 705 00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:56,240 Speaker 1: of your bosses say okay, well, you're not getting anywhere. 706 00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:57,359 Speaker 1: You've got other stuff to do. 707 00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:00,160 Speaker 2: Well, you know the hardest part about this case. When 708 00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:02,760 Speaker 2: we started, we didn't even know who to talk to. Normally, 709 00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:05,640 Speaker 2: when you investigate a police case, it's quite easy to 710 00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:09,480 Speaker 2: figure out who was there because the police document virtually 711 00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:12,680 Speaker 2: everything they do. You've got radio calls, you've got logs, 712 00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:15,520 Speaker 2: you've got reports. But in the aftermath of the storm, 713 00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:17,719 Speaker 2: there was none of that. What we did know was 714 00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:20,600 Speaker 2: who got paid for working during that time period, and 715 00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:23,719 Speaker 2: so we had a list of about fifty names from 716 00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:26,239 Speaker 2: the swat team. We had another fifty names from the 717 00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:28,880 Speaker 2: fourth District, and we just tried to figure out, all right, 718 00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:30,880 Speaker 2: we're gonna try to talk to every single one. That 719 00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:34,000 Speaker 2: was not a very effective strategy because for the first 720 00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:37,560 Speaker 2: many many people we talked to, we were getting nowhere 721 00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:39,839 Speaker 2: A lot, a lot of the people telling us that, 722 00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:43,400 Speaker 2: you know, this doesn't sound like it really happened. Eventually, 723 00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:47,680 Speaker 2: an inside source inside NPD provided us with some names 724 00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:49,920 Speaker 2: of people to talk to. We would ask, you know, 725 00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:52,520 Speaker 2: who are these people and what are they gonna tell us? 726 00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:55,359 Speaker 2: And the answer was, I'm not going to tell you. 727 00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:57,960 Speaker 2: You just need to find them. And so Ashley and 728 00:37:58,000 --> 00:37:59,960 Speaker 2: I went out and we began finding some of the 729 00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:04,600 Speaker 2: people on this list. As we began to interview people, 730 00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:08,720 Speaker 2: the story was emerging that on that day, on September second, 731 00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:12,920 Speaker 2: there was an officer named David Warren. David Warren was 732 00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:16,640 Speaker 2: a forty year old rookie officer. He had a number 733 00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:20,200 Speaker 2: of degrees and a professional and business life before he 734 00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:23,200 Speaker 2: became a police officer, but decided in his forties to 735 00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:26,520 Speaker 2: go become a police officer, and that was not long 736 00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:29,600 Speaker 2: before the storm hit. That day. He was partnered with 737 00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:33,920 Speaker 2: another officer, a senior female officer who had about twenty 738 00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:36,399 Speaker 2: five years on the experience of experience on the force 739 00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:39,680 Speaker 2: named Linda Howard, and the two of them were partnered up. 740 00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:43,560 Speaker 2: In our early interviews with people who spoke with Linda Howard, 741 00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:46,239 Speaker 2: the suggestion was that David Warren had fired at this 742 00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:50,239 Speaker 2: man for no good reason, that Linda was hysterical afterwards, 743 00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:52,520 Speaker 2: that was trying to get information, but that she couldn't 744 00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:55,960 Speaker 2: get any information. Slowly we interviewed more and more officers 745 00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:58,480 Speaker 2: and began to expand our circle to the point that 746 00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:02,759 Speaker 2: we met Linda Howard. I was really uncertain whether or 747 00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:06,200 Speaker 2: not Linda Howard would tell us about the bad shooting 748 00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:09,719 Speaker 2: that we were beginning to believe so from callaway, from 749 00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:13,799 Speaker 2: Bernard's perspective, from Patrice Glover's perspective, the allegations was that 750 00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:16,279 Speaker 2: he was shot from the second floor, Henry was on 751 00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:19,040 Speaker 2: the ground level, that the gun was on the second level, 752 00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:22,160 Speaker 2: that Henry was running away. I doubted that we would 753 00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:24,880 Speaker 2: ever find a witness who would testify to that, but 754 00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:27,880 Speaker 2: then we met Linda Howard. Linda Howard, after being initially 755 00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:30,880 Speaker 2: reluctant to talk to Ashley and I, eventually met with 756 00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:35,040 Speaker 2: us and said, no, David Warren used his personally own rifle. 757 00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:39,200 Speaker 2: It was a sniper rifle that we'd later learned he 758 00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:42,680 Speaker 2: used in shooting competitions of hundreds of yards away, and 759 00:39:42,719 --> 00:39:45,080 Speaker 2: that he fired at Henry Glover as he was running 760 00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:47,960 Speaker 2: for no reason. That Henry didn't pose a threat to 761 00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:51,360 Speaker 2: either of them, but that David Warren fired anyways. 762 00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:55,560 Speaker 1: What motivated her as an officer with that many years 763 00:39:56,040 --> 00:39:58,440 Speaker 1: twenty five years? I think you said, what motivated her 764 00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:01,960 Speaker 1: to speak out? Because that must have put her in 765 00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:04,560 Speaker 1: danger in multiple different ways. 766 00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:07,320 Speaker 2: No, I think of all the witnesses in the case, 767 00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:10,440 Speaker 2: Linda Howard was probably one of the most vulnerable in 768 00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:13,840 Speaker 2: terms of threats to her and the potential of harm 769 00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:16,480 Speaker 2: to her in the immediate aftermath of the shooting. She 770 00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:20,600 Speaker 2: knew that day that this was an unjustified shooting. It 771 00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:25,480 Speaker 2: distraught her. She was telling people that day like Henry 772 00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:27,520 Speaker 2: was well, she didn't know his name, Henry, but this 773 00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:30,279 Speaker 2: man was killed for it for no reason. But in 774 00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:34,680 Speaker 2: the immediate aftermath, no one does anything. They don't send 775 00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:38,719 Speaker 2: crime scene, they don't send people to help her. And 776 00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:42,160 Speaker 2: then later that evening when she sees the senior lieutenant, 777 00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:44,319 Speaker 2: the number two for that district, and he asked her 778 00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:46,640 Speaker 2: was it a good shot? And she shakes her head no, 779 00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:49,880 Speaker 2: And no one ever asked her another question until Ashley 780 00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:52,799 Speaker 2: and I show up a number of years later. So 781 00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:55,960 Speaker 2: what happened to Linda? She sees this thing, she thinks 782 00:40:56,000 --> 00:40:58,879 Speaker 2: it's terrible, and then it quickly gets the message from 783 00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:00,719 Speaker 2: the rest of the police department that they're not going 784 00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:03,480 Speaker 2: to do anything about it, so she sinks into her 785 00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:06,839 Speaker 2: own silence for many years. I give a ton of 786 00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:10,800 Speaker 2: credit to Ashley Johnson, the FBI agent, for being able 787 00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:15,520 Speaker 2: to bond with a witness like Linda Howard. Linda Howard 788 00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:18,440 Speaker 2: is a black woman. She was a black woman police 789 00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:20,840 Speaker 2: officer in the eighties and nineties during some of the 790 00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:24,759 Speaker 2: most abusive periods of n OPD. Saw a lot of 791 00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:28,279 Speaker 2: bad stuff over those years, and Ashley Johnson is a 792 00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:33,360 Speaker 2: rare character in the Federal peerau of investigation. She is 793 00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:38,280 Speaker 2: a young black woman, sharp as attack, very skilled investigator, 794 00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:41,399 Speaker 2: and is able to help Linda Howard feel at ease. 795 00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:43,799 Speaker 2: I think Linda Howard wanted to get this off of 796 00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:45,839 Speaker 2: her chest for many, many years and just didn't have 797 00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:47,480 Speaker 2: the opportunity until we showed up. 798 00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:51,920 Speaker 1: Did Linda speculate at all on what was he thinking? 799 00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:54,680 Speaker 1: What in his mind was happening when he picked up 800 00:41:54,719 --> 00:41:57,680 Speaker 1: his own weapon and decided to pick this guy off. 801 00:41:57,719 --> 00:41:59,279 Speaker 1: He didn't even know, you know. 802 00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:02,600 Speaker 2: I think it took her a long time to come up, 803 00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:04,719 Speaker 2: you know, come to gripslie. I don't know that she 804 00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:09,120 Speaker 2: did have any real theory of what happened, other than 805 00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:12,600 Speaker 2: that he was quite twitchy. He was quick to hold 806 00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:16,480 Speaker 2: his gun. This gun is a sig Sour assault rifle. 807 00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:19,480 Speaker 2: It retailed I think for about eight thousand dollars at 808 00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:23,000 Speaker 2: the time. He had a very high powered scope. And 809 00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:25,319 Speaker 2: Linda would say, you know, that morning, he's walking around 810 00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:27,720 Speaker 2: the Strip Mall holding up the gun, looking through the scope, 811 00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:30,160 Speaker 2: kind of scanning. She didn't even tell us this for 812 00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:32,160 Speaker 2: a number of weeks, but eventually she says, you know, 813 00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:34,839 Speaker 2: earlier that morning, when we first got to the Strip Mall, 814 00:42:35,200 --> 00:42:37,839 Speaker 2: there was another guy walking down the street about five 815 00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:41,640 Speaker 2: hundred yards away, and Warren took the gun and fired 816 00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:45,880 Speaker 2: in his direction. The guy, you know, surprised, crouches runs 817 00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:49,000 Speaker 2: away and Linda Howerd's like, what are you doing? And 818 00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:51,200 Speaker 2: David Warren said, wow, I was just trying to see something, 819 00:42:51,480 --> 00:42:54,200 Speaker 2: and Linda is like, you can't do this. So she 820 00:42:54,560 --> 00:42:56,920 Speaker 2: is very much on edge. She doesn't like the idea 821 00:42:56,960 --> 00:42:59,120 Speaker 2: that she's working with this rookie that she does not know. 822 00:42:59,640 --> 00:43:02,040 Speaker 2: Not only is he a rookie, but for his very 823 00:43:02,120 --> 00:43:05,240 Speaker 2: brief policing career, he didn't even work in this area. 824 00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:07,719 Speaker 2: He lived in this area and he was assigned to 825 00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:11,400 Speaker 2: another district, but because that district was underwater, he was 826 00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:13,640 Speaker 2: told to reports of the nearest district to his home, 827 00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:17,400 Speaker 2: which is this district where Lynda Howard and Henry Glover aar. 828 00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:22,600 Speaker 1: So whatud we know about David Warren just as a person, 829 00:43:22,719 --> 00:43:25,759 Speaker 1: as this the first time that anything not like this 830 00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:28,160 Speaker 1: has happened. But I mean, what is his character like 831 00:43:28,280 --> 00:43:30,080 Speaker 1: before the story unfolds? 832 00:43:30,719 --> 00:43:34,440 Speaker 2: Well, what we eventually learn is that he has an 833 00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:37,799 Speaker 2: engineering degree, he has an MBA. He is running the 834 00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:44,200 Speaker 2: family business. He's from Wisconsin originally but is an evangelical Christian. 835 00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:47,479 Speaker 2: Gets introduced to the woman who becomes his wife, who's 836 00:43:47,480 --> 00:43:50,640 Speaker 2: from Louisiana. They live in Wisconsin for a little bit, 837 00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:53,200 Speaker 2: but she wants to move back down to New Orleans. 838 00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:55,839 Speaker 2: They sell the family business, so he has a little 839 00:43:55,840 --> 00:43:58,560 Speaker 2: bit more cash than normal. He loves guns. He is 840 00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:00,440 Speaker 2: a guy who is a gun of you. I know, 841 00:44:00,560 --> 00:44:03,240 Speaker 2: he's got about two dozen or so in his collection. 842 00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:06,440 Speaker 2: He's been participating in all sorts of different use of 843 00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:09,920 Speaker 2: force trainings and gun collections. And he teaches for the 844 00:44:10,040 --> 00:44:12,879 Speaker 2: NRA and he really wants to be a cop, and 845 00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:16,160 Speaker 2: so when he sells the business, they say, all right, 846 00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:18,600 Speaker 2: well we're secure enough that you can go be a cop, 847 00:44:18,719 --> 00:44:21,000 Speaker 2: and he goes off and becomes a police officer at 848 00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:21,719 Speaker 2: forty years old. 849 00:44:22,160 --> 00:44:25,719 Speaker 1: So you and Ashley Johnson have Linda Howard who is 850 00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:28,279 Speaker 1: still working for the police force or she retired by 851 00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:29,040 Speaker 1: this point. 852 00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:30,800 Speaker 2: She's still working in the police department. 853 00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:35,160 Speaker 1: Wow, okay, she's there. She scared witless. I'm assuming by 854 00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:37,640 Speaker 1: even telling you all this information, is that right? Does 855 00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:39,400 Speaker 1: she ask for protection of some kind? 856 00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:42,719 Speaker 2: She does not. I mean, she keeps a low profile. 857 00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:46,480 Speaker 2: I think it's only really knowing her over the years, 858 00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:49,480 Speaker 2: and only in my more recent conversations with her, that 859 00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:52,759 Speaker 2: she has really just unveiled how scary it was. I 860 00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:56,440 Speaker 2: think I certainly underappreciated the risks she was facing in 861 00:44:56,560 --> 00:45:00,000 Speaker 2: real time, but now with the benefit of hindsight, Yeah, 862 00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:03,520 Speaker 2: it was absolutely scary. It was scary in two thousand 863 00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:06,120 Speaker 2: and five, in the immediate aftermath of the shooting. She 864 00:45:06,200 --> 00:45:08,600 Speaker 2: was living alone at the time. She was concerned that 865 00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:11,240 Speaker 2: at any point someone can come by her house. Everyone 866 00:45:11,320 --> 00:45:13,799 Speaker 2: knew where she lived. She didn't live very far from 867 00:45:14,440 --> 00:45:18,400 Speaker 2: the headquarters from the fourth District station, so she definitely 868 00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:19,080 Speaker 2: was afraid. 869 00:45:19,640 --> 00:45:24,320 Speaker 1: So you have Linda Howard, you have the accounts from 870 00:45:24,560 --> 00:45:29,799 Speaker 1: brother Edward, the sister's boyfriend, Bernard, and William Tanner. They 871 00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:32,880 Speaker 1: all seem to match up. And then you have his body, 872 00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:36,440 Speaker 1: even though parts of it have been destroyed, and you 873 00:45:36,560 --> 00:45:39,040 Speaker 1: have sort of these stories that are sketched together. And 874 00:45:39,080 --> 00:45:41,720 Speaker 1: then Linda, of course is a reliable source. What else 875 00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:44,080 Speaker 1: do you need to move forward with this case? 876 00:45:44,640 --> 00:45:47,640 Speaker 2: Well, we just end up picking up lots of little 877 00:45:47,680 --> 00:45:50,319 Speaker 2: pieces of evidence. I mean, unlike any other case I 878 00:45:50,360 --> 00:45:52,960 Speaker 2: ever had. Usually you can tell the whole story in 879 00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:55,879 Speaker 2: two or three witnesses, right, There's usually two or three 880 00:45:55,920 --> 00:45:59,480 Speaker 2: people that give you the narrative arc from beginning to end. 881 00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:02,840 Speaker 2: This one we had to call over thirty witnesses to 882 00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:07,080 Speaker 2: be able to piece it together because Linda Howard only 883 00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:09,560 Speaker 2: knew what happened for the shooting, she didn't really know 884 00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:12,759 Speaker 2: what happened next once they go to the school, then 885 00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:16,799 Speaker 2: we have other witnesses who eventually corroborate that some of 886 00:46:16,840 --> 00:46:20,239 Speaker 2: these officers beat up the men. Eventually we found a 887 00:46:20,239 --> 00:46:23,360 Speaker 2: lot of photographs. This was a case where when we 888 00:46:23,440 --> 00:46:27,160 Speaker 2: started investigating, I couldn't imagine that we would find photographs 889 00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:29,840 Speaker 2: of any part of the crime. Remember, it takes place 890 00:46:29,840 --> 00:46:32,719 Speaker 2: in two thousand and five. People didn't have cameras on 891 00:46:32,760 --> 00:46:36,680 Speaker 2: their phone very often. Back then people were traveling with 892 00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:40,160 Speaker 2: real film cameras, some of them had disposables. What we 893 00:46:40,320 --> 00:46:42,600 Speaker 2: ended up finding over the course of our eighteen month 894 00:46:42,600 --> 00:46:46,560 Speaker 2: investigation were scores of photos that were taken by different 895 00:46:46,600 --> 00:46:50,960 Speaker 2: people at different parts. So we eventually found photographs of 896 00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:54,560 Speaker 2: Henry lying in the back of William Tanner's car with 897 00:46:54,600 --> 00:46:58,160 Speaker 2: a bright red circle on his back, clearly having bled 898 00:46:58,200 --> 00:47:01,240 Speaker 2: out of his front. We found a number of pictures 899 00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:04,920 Speaker 2: of his charred remains in the car by the levee 900 00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:09,480 Speaker 2: at different stages. So we had photographs from September second 901 00:47:09,840 --> 00:47:12,239 Speaker 2: where you can see Henry's skull in the back of 902 00:47:12,239 --> 00:47:15,480 Speaker 2: the car, and then we have photographs from September sixteenth, 903 00:47:15,640 --> 00:47:18,719 Speaker 2: two weeks later where that skull is missing. And so 904 00:47:19,160 --> 00:47:22,919 Speaker 2: what surprised me were just how many different people took 905 00:47:23,040 --> 00:47:25,719 Speaker 2: photographs over that's not none of which were a part 906 00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:29,960 Speaker 2: of an official investigation. So these were pictures that people 907 00:47:29,960 --> 00:47:32,360 Speaker 2: were taking, many of them were just trying to document 908 00:47:32,480 --> 00:47:36,160 Speaker 2: this historic moment in New Orleans and documenting the many 909 00:47:36,200 --> 00:47:38,680 Speaker 2: strange things that they saw in New Orleans. Some of 910 00:47:38,719 --> 00:47:41,400 Speaker 2: them knew they were sitting on some pretty powerful evidence. 911 00:47:41,760 --> 00:47:45,000 Speaker 2: There was one photograph that was in particular, showed up 912 00:47:45,200 --> 00:47:47,359 Speaker 2: when Ashley and I were almost at a low point 913 00:47:47,840 --> 00:47:51,319 Speaker 2: of our investigation. We had identified a number of people 914 00:47:51,360 --> 00:47:54,120 Speaker 2: who were at the school, but no one would give 915 00:47:54,160 --> 00:47:56,239 Speaker 2: us any information, and no one would even confirm that 916 00:47:56,280 --> 00:47:59,120 Speaker 2: they were at the school until we found a photograph 917 00:47:59,239 --> 00:48:04,040 Speaker 2: of offices who were guarding these three men in handcuffs, 918 00:48:04,400 --> 00:48:07,239 Speaker 2: and for the very first time we had evidence of 919 00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:11,000 Speaker 2: who those officers were. We had been hearing rumors that 920 00:48:11,840 --> 00:48:15,279 Speaker 2: lieutenant named Dwayne Sherman had been involved in this, and 921 00:48:15,320 --> 00:48:19,040 Speaker 2: that a junior officer named Greg McCrae had been the 922 00:48:19,080 --> 00:48:23,000 Speaker 2: ones who had driven off with Henry's body. What this 923 00:48:23,160 --> 00:48:26,680 Speaker 2: picture showed us was that not only were both Sherman 924 00:48:26,760 --> 00:48:30,120 Speaker 2: and McCray present, but in the photograph you can see 925 00:48:30,200 --> 00:48:34,480 Speaker 2: McCrae holding two road flares, exactly as William Tanner had said. 926 00:48:34,680 --> 00:48:37,360 Speaker 2: I had never believed that part of William Tanner's story. 927 00:48:37,680 --> 00:48:40,080 Speaker 2: People avan algia, Why didn't you believe it? It seemed 928 00:48:40,120 --> 00:48:41,640 Speaker 2: crazy to me that if you were going to burn 929 00:48:41,680 --> 00:48:43,760 Speaker 2: this guy's body, you would do it with road flares, 930 00:48:43,880 --> 00:48:46,760 Speaker 2: or that anyone would have road flares on a bright morning, 931 00:48:46,960 --> 00:48:49,480 Speaker 2: sunny morning. But when we got that picture and there 932 00:48:49,560 --> 00:48:52,600 Speaker 2: was Greg McRae with those two road flares, it began 933 00:48:52,640 --> 00:48:56,000 Speaker 2: to corroborate that, in fact, this was who drove off 934 00:48:56,040 --> 00:48:59,440 Speaker 2: with Henry's body. Now that being said, we couldn't prove that, 935 00:49:00,160 --> 00:49:03,080 Speaker 2: not feel like we had enough evidence to be able 936 00:49:03,120 --> 00:49:06,680 Speaker 2: to bring those charges. We had plenty of good innuendo, 937 00:49:06,920 --> 00:49:10,200 Speaker 2: we had plenty of circumstantial evidence. But it was only 938 00:49:11,040 --> 00:49:13,720 Speaker 2: when Ashley and I were really just going through the list, 939 00:49:14,280 --> 00:49:16,719 Speaker 2: interviewing every person whose name was on that list, that 940 00:49:16,760 --> 00:49:20,640 Speaker 2: we then came across another officer named Joe Miish. Joe 941 00:49:20,760 --> 00:49:22,760 Speaker 2: Miich had been on our list for a long time, 942 00:49:23,160 --> 00:49:25,680 Speaker 2: but was a low enough priority because we didn't think 943 00:49:25,719 --> 00:49:28,719 Speaker 2: he knew anything. But when we eventually talked to him, 944 00:49:29,080 --> 00:49:32,120 Speaker 2: he became a crucial piece of evidence. He was standing 945 00:49:32,320 --> 00:49:36,839 Speaker 2: by the levee as he observed a car driving down 946 00:49:36,880 --> 00:49:38,719 Speaker 2: the levee. And for those of you've never seen one 947 00:49:38,760 --> 00:49:41,920 Speaker 2: of these, it's a big mound of earth that is 948 00:49:42,160 --> 00:49:45,480 Speaker 2: raised around the river. This particular part of the levee 949 00:49:45,480 --> 00:49:48,480 Speaker 2: has a flat surface at the top, so you can 950 00:49:48,600 --> 00:49:51,920 Speaker 2: drive a car along the top. And so he was 951 00:49:52,000 --> 00:49:55,040 Speaker 2: dealing with a broken water Maine, trying to sort out 952 00:49:55,040 --> 00:49:57,880 Speaker 2: a place where a helicopter could land when he sees 953 00:49:57,920 --> 00:49:59,640 Speaker 2: this car driving and he says, it looks like it 954 00:49:59,719 --> 00:50:02,200 Speaker 2: dropped off the face of the earth. It just disappears. 955 00:50:02,520 --> 00:50:04,680 Speaker 2: So he's concerned about what happened to this car. He 956 00:50:04,719 --> 00:50:07,040 Speaker 2: walks over to the levee and as he's getting there, 957 00:50:07,400 --> 00:50:10,440 Speaker 2: black smoke is beginning to rise from behind the levee. 958 00:50:10,760 --> 00:50:14,520 Speaker 2: He sees Greg McCrae. He knows Greg McCrae from having 959 00:50:14,719 --> 00:50:18,280 Speaker 2: worked at the police department. He sees Dwayne Sherman driving 960 00:50:18,320 --> 00:50:21,399 Speaker 2: this truck along the levee. And so for the very 961 00:50:21,440 --> 00:50:24,439 Speaker 2: first time, not only did we have all the circumstantial 962 00:50:24,440 --> 00:50:27,360 Speaker 2: evidence that Sherman and McCrae were involved in the burning, 963 00:50:27,400 --> 00:50:29,680 Speaker 2: but now we had an eyewitness who put them at 964 00:50:29,719 --> 00:50:32,000 Speaker 2: the scene at the same time period as the fire. 965 00:50:32,400 --> 00:50:35,480 Speaker 1: How long is this investigation that you and Ashley were 966 00:50:35,520 --> 00:50:36,120 Speaker 1: involved with. 967 00:50:36,560 --> 00:50:38,080 Speaker 2: It was about eighteen months. 968 00:50:38,200 --> 00:50:42,400 Speaker 1: And at what point do the two of you say, Okay, 969 00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:46,040 Speaker 1: we think we have enough. Maybe not for everybody, but 970 00:50:46,160 --> 00:50:49,279 Speaker 1: we have eyewitnesses and people who are coming forward and 971 00:50:49,320 --> 00:50:52,200 Speaker 1: we think we can patch together this case and who 972 00:50:52,239 --> 00:50:53,120 Speaker 1: do you pursue? 973 00:50:53,600 --> 00:50:58,720 Speaker 2: Well, we indict five police officers. Those were David Warren 974 00:50:59,120 --> 00:51:03,000 Speaker 2: for shooting Henry Glover. We charged Greg McCrae and Dwayne 975 00:51:03,000 --> 00:51:06,160 Speaker 2: Sherman for the burning of Henry Glover's body, and then 976 00:51:06,160 --> 00:51:09,160 Speaker 2: we charged two other officers as a part of other 977 00:51:09,200 --> 00:51:10,760 Speaker 2: parts of the cover up that followed. 978 00:51:11,000 --> 00:51:14,880 Speaker 1: And is the main evidence these witnesses is that right. 979 00:51:15,160 --> 00:51:20,239 Speaker 2: Well, it's a combination of eyewitnesses, police officers and civilians. 980 00:51:20,280 --> 00:51:24,040 Speaker 2: It's the photographs, it's other pieces of physical evidence that 981 00:51:24,120 --> 00:51:26,000 Speaker 2: we gathered. But a lot of the things that you 982 00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:31,200 Speaker 2: would normally expect in a homicide case, ballistics, a complete autopsy, 983 00:51:31,520 --> 00:51:36,359 Speaker 2: crime scene, none of that existed. So it became very 984 00:51:36,520 --> 00:51:39,359 Speaker 2: much a case of people telling the stories of what 985 00:51:39,400 --> 00:51:44,520 Speaker 2: they witnessed firsthand, supported by some hard evidence. But it 986 00:51:44,560 --> 00:51:45,680 Speaker 2: was an unusual case. 987 00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:49,480 Speaker 1: Did the police officers at the elementary school, so that 988 00:51:49,880 --> 00:51:53,880 Speaker 1: was Dwayne Sherman and Greg McCrae. Did these guys know 989 00:51:54,440 --> 00:51:57,560 Speaker 1: that a police officer had killed this man in the 990 00:51:57,600 --> 00:52:00,520 Speaker 1: back of this car or what did they think happened? 991 00:52:00,640 --> 00:52:02,920 Speaker 1: Because this is totally separate locations, right. 992 00:52:03,320 --> 00:52:06,200 Speaker 2: They have denied to this day that they knew that 993 00:52:06,239 --> 00:52:09,600 Speaker 2: a police officer had shot Henry Glover. For those of 994 00:52:09,600 --> 00:52:12,120 Speaker 2: you who read the book, you can sess out for 995 00:52:12,160 --> 00:52:14,279 Speaker 2: yourself whether or not you think that's credible or not. 996 00:52:14,920 --> 00:52:18,120 Speaker 2: But they have to this day denied that they knew 997 00:52:18,239 --> 00:52:21,839 Speaker 2: that David Warren had shot Henry Glover. According to them, 998 00:52:21,960 --> 00:52:24,480 Speaker 2: the body shows up at the school. They're trying to 999 00:52:24,480 --> 00:52:26,799 Speaker 2: get answers from the men, they claim, the men don't 1000 00:52:26,800 --> 00:52:30,439 Speaker 2: give them any information. They hold them for a number 1001 00:52:30,480 --> 00:52:33,160 Speaker 2: of hours to try to get to the bottom of it, 1002 00:52:33,280 --> 00:52:35,440 Speaker 2: but they don't get any information. That's why they eventually 1003 00:52:35,480 --> 00:52:37,200 Speaker 2: allowed them to be released. 1004 00:52:37,719 --> 00:52:40,840 Speaker 1: So you indict five, Can you give me the shorthand 1005 00:52:40,840 --> 00:52:44,719 Speaker 1: on what happens with these cases? Does everything end positively 1006 00:52:44,800 --> 00:52:45,640 Speaker 1: for you and Ashley? 1007 00:52:45,680 --> 00:52:49,239 Speaker 2: With the story, we win some, we lose some. Some 1008 00:52:49,280 --> 00:52:52,200 Speaker 2: of the ones that we win we later lose. Depends 1009 00:52:52,200 --> 00:52:54,520 Speaker 2: how you think of winning and losing injustice in this 1010 00:52:54,560 --> 00:52:57,160 Speaker 2: whole thing. You know, I've come to a position after 1011 00:52:57,160 --> 00:52:59,920 Speaker 2: being a prosecutor for fifteen years that way too long. 1012 00:53:00,040 --> 00:53:03,640 Speaker 2: Often we think about the individual wrongdoing and holding that 1013 00:53:03,719 --> 00:53:07,360 Speaker 2: individual accountable as being justice what I've learned over the 1014 00:53:07,440 --> 00:53:10,200 Speaker 2: years is our system actually wasn't designed to achieve justice. 1015 00:53:10,480 --> 00:53:13,400 Speaker 2: What our system was designed to achieve his punishment. And 1016 00:53:13,440 --> 00:53:16,240 Speaker 2: so were there people punished for what happened to Henry? 1017 00:53:16,560 --> 00:53:20,520 Speaker 2: Some yes, some know. But what also happened in the 1018 00:53:20,560 --> 00:53:24,040 Speaker 2: aftermath of this case, as well as some other shootings 1019 00:53:24,080 --> 00:53:28,080 Speaker 2: involving police officers both before and after Hurricane Katrina, is 1020 00:53:28,080 --> 00:53:32,040 Speaker 2: that the New Orleans Police Department went under major, major reforms. 1021 00:53:32,440 --> 00:53:35,680 Speaker 2: Over twenty five officers lost their jobs as a result 1022 00:53:35,719 --> 00:53:38,800 Speaker 2: of these cases, and New Orleans entered into a consent 1023 00:53:38,840 --> 00:53:41,920 Speaker 2: degree with the Justice Department to radically rework how they 1024 00:53:41,920 --> 00:53:45,160 Speaker 2: police in New Orleans. So I think in terms of 1025 00:53:45,239 --> 00:53:49,120 Speaker 2: individual accountability, the story is somewhat mixed. In terms of 1026 00:53:49,320 --> 00:53:53,320 Speaker 2: being a vital first step for some much needed reforms 1027 00:53:53,320 --> 00:53:55,840 Speaker 2: in New Orleans, it was great, but there's still a 1028 00:53:55,880 --> 00:53:56,440 Speaker 2: long way to go. 1029 00:53:56,800 --> 00:54:00,160 Speaker 1: Who did you ultimately end up getting, hopefully, David Warren. 1030 00:54:00,520 --> 00:54:04,080 Speaker 2: Well. I mean, the thing is, we convicted David Warren 1031 00:54:04,120 --> 00:54:07,160 Speaker 2: in the first trial, a jury of twelve found that 1032 00:54:07,200 --> 00:54:10,480 Speaker 2: he was guilty of killing Henry Glover, and he was 1033 00:54:10,520 --> 00:54:13,920 Speaker 2: sentenced to I think twenty five years in prison. But 1034 00:54:14,239 --> 00:54:17,960 Speaker 2: he would eventually win a new trial on appeal, and 1035 00:54:18,000 --> 00:54:21,680 Speaker 2: so we had to try him again. The issue on 1036 00:54:21,760 --> 00:54:24,719 Speaker 2: appeal partly because of the point that you had raised earlier. 1037 00:54:24,920 --> 00:54:27,280 Speaker 2: We never had evidence that David Warren knew who burned 1038 00:54:27,280 --> 00:54:30,680 Speaker 2: the body. While we certainly had belief that the people 1039 00:54:30,719 --> 00:54:33,520 Speaker 2: who burned the body knew about the police shooting, we 1040 00:54:33,520 --> 00:54:36,120 Speaker 2: didn't have any evidence going the other way. And so 1041 00:54:36,560 --> 00:54:39,160 Speaker 2: what David Warren's attorney had argued all along was that 1042 00:54:39,239 --> 00:54:42,560 Speaker 2: being tried alongside the people who burned the body was 1043 00:54:42,680 --> 00:54:46,520 Speaker 2: unfairly prejudicial to David Warren. That where you have this 1044 00:54:46,600 --> 00:54:48,880 Speaker 2: man whose body burnt, well, of course the jury's going 1045 00:54:48,920 --> 00:54:51,480 Speaker 2: to come to a conclusion that it was unjustified. Why 1046 00:54:51,520 --> 00:54:54,520 Speaker 2: else would they cover it up. The Fifth Circuit, which 1047 00:54:54,560 --> 00:54:58,600 Speaker 2: is the federal appeals court that represents Mississippi and Texas 1048 00:54:58,600 --> 00:55:01,359 Speaker 2: and Louisiana. It's one of the most conservative in the nation, 1049 00:55:01,719 --> 00:55:05,759 Speaker 2: agreed with his attorney's argument that he should be tried separately, 1050 00:55:05,880 --> 00:55:09,480 Speaker 2: and we had to retried David Warren by himself. But 1051 00:55:09,640 --> 00:55:11,800 Speaker 2: this time in the second trial, we weren't allowed to 1052 00:55:11,840 --> 00:55:14,520 Speaker 2: talk about the burned body, or the beatings at Haben 1053 00:55:14,560 --> 00:55:18,279 Speaker 2: Elementary School, or all sorts of pieces of evidence that 1054 00:55:18,560 --> 00:55:21,400 Speaker 2: implicated other police officers and the cover up of the crime, 1055 00:55:22,000 --> 00:55:25,600 Speaker 2: And so we were left with a much shorter version 1056 00:55:25,600 --> 00:55:29,200 Speaker 2: of events where it was essentially Linda Howard's word against 1057 00:55:29,320 --> 00:55:32,319 Speaker 2: David Warren's word, and the question was, with twelve good 1058 00:55:32,360 --> 00:55:35,080 Speaker 2: people from Louisiana believe that was reasonable doubt? 1059 00:55:35,800 --> 00:55:40,360 Speaker 1: Okay? What ultimately happens with Linda Howard, who I would 1060 00:55:40,360 --> 00:55:41,840 Speaker 1: hope at this point is retired. 1061 00:55:42,400 --> 00:55:47,400 Speaker 2: She eventually retires not long after the retrial and is 1062 00:55:47,440 --> 00:55:49,640 Speaker 2: able to retire with her pension. She's one of the 1063 00:55:49,640 --> 00:55:53,479 Speaker 2: few officers who gets out of this intact. I got 1064 00:55:53,480 --> 00:55:56,160 Speaker 2: to see her during the course of writing the book. 1065 00:55:56,200 --> 00:56:00,000 Speaker 2: I hadn't seen her since the investigation. In the trials, 1066 00:56:00,080 --> 00:56:02,960 Speaker 2: he is trying to help kids. Part of her job 1067 00:56:03,040 --> 00:56:05,440 Speaker 2: she always liked was she volunteered as a police officer 1068 00:56:05,719 --> 00:56:09,640 Speaker 2: to train a young boys and girls coming from Algiers 1069 00:56:09,719 --> 00:56:13,400 Speaker 2: and coaching them in sports like volleyball, and continuing to 1070 00:56:13,440 --> 00:56:17,000 Speaker 2: serve her community and supporting the next generation of people 1071 00:56:17,040 --> 00:56:18,960 Speaker 2: so that they can hopefully have a better life. 1072 00:56:19,160 --> 00:56:23,480 Speaker 1: And what about Henry's family? What happens with Patrice and 1073 00:56:23,600 --> 00:56:26,759 Speaker 1: his girlfriend, his daughter? All of these folks who just 1074 00:56:26,760 --> 00:56:29,920 Speaker 1: suffered so greatly by not having this man around. 1075 00:56:30,280 --> 00:56:32,920 Speaker 2: I mean, they continued to suffer to this day. I 1076 00:56:33,080 --> 00:56:36,240 Speaker 2: just talked to Edna this week. I talked to Patrice 1077 00:56:36,280 --> 00:56:40,840 Speaker 2: fairly frequently, and whenever we talk about Henry, they can't 1078 00:56:40,920 --> 00:56:44,040 Speaker 2: help but cry and break down in tears. And we're 1079 00:56:44,080 --> 00:56:46,920 Speaker 2: almost twenty years since his death. For me, it was 1080 00:56:46,960 --> 00:56:49,919 Speaker 2: a tough one because, on the one hand, they didn't 1081 00:56:49,960 --> 00:56:54,400 Speaker 2: know anything when we started. We uncovered that not only 1082 00:56:54,520 --> 00:56:57,760 Speaker 2: was this loss horrific in taking place during this terrible, 1083 00:56:57,840 --> 00:57:00,560 Speaker 2: terrible period in their life, but it was long enforcement. 1084 00:57:00,600 --> 00:57:03,560 Speaker 2: It was the government who did this, and we uncovered it. 1085 00:57:03,600 --> 00:57:07,040 Speaker 2: And there's no doubt that David Warren killed Henry Glover 1086 00:57:07,320 --> 00:57:09,640 Speaker 2: like that is not in dispute, and it is not 1087 00:57:09,840 --> 00:57:13,840 Speaker 2: in dispute that Greg McCrae burned Henry Glover's body. But 1088 00:57:13,960 --> 00:57:16,880 Speaker 2: when you see the unevenness of the results and the 1089 00:57:17,000 --> 00:57:21,000 Speaker 2: lack of complete justice, it was incredibly debilitating for them. 1090 00:57:21,400 --> 00:57:25,240 Speaker 2: They are still low income black New Orleanians who are 1091 00:57:25,320 --> 00:57:28,320 Speaker 2: living on the margins society, who are struggling to make 1092 00:57:28,440 --> 00:57:32,080 Speaker 2: enough to feed their families and to pay their rents 1093 00:57:32,160 --> 00:57:36,280 Speaker 2: on time every month, and the system doesn't support those people. 1094 00:57:36,800 --> 00:57:39,960 Speaker 2: And so in addition to watching what happened to the 1095 00:57:39,960 --> 00:57:42,560 Speaker 2: people who did this to them, they're also continuing just 1096 00:57:42,560 --> 00:57:44,160 Speaker 2: to live a very hard life in New Orleans. 1097 00:57:44,400 --> 00:57:47,040 Speaker 1: But Henry was not forgotten. And I know we've talked 1098 00:57:47,040 --> 00:57:49,280 Speaker 1: about justice, and I think, you know, the shining the 1099 00:57:49,360 --> 00:57:53,160 Speaker 1: light on an issue that you mentioned is more important 1100 00:57:53,200 --> 00:57:56,480 Speaker 1: than actually having some of these people behind bars. I mean, 1101 00:57:56,520 --> 00:58:00,840 Speaker 1: I certainly I wonder what would have happened this story 1102 00:58:01,240 --> 00:58:05,960 Speaker 1: had you not gotten that little file with an article 1103 00:58:06,000 --> 00:58:08,400 Speaker 1: in it and just thought you're going to take it 1104 00:58:08,400 --> 00:58:10,720 Speaker 1: to your boss and see what happens. I mean, this is, 1105 00:58:10,920 --> 00:58:14,600 Speaker 1: I know, a big investigation, but it was instigated by 1106 00:58:14,600 --> 00:58:15,560 Speaker 1: a journalist and by. 1107 00:58:15,480 --> 00:58:19,600 Speaker 2: You, yeah, and by Ashley, and by William Tanner, and 1108 00:58:19,720 --> 00:58:23,040 Speaker 2: by people who are you know who stepped up, like 1109 00:58:23,240 --> 00:58:26,720 Speaker 2: Linda Howard and people like Joe Mice who had buried 1110 00:58:26,760 --> 00:58:29,480 Speaker 2: that thing for as long as he could and ultimately 1111 00:58:29,600 --> 00:58:33,120 Speaker 2: he eventually came clean. What really shocked me, and I 1112 00:58:33,120 --> 00:58:35,440 Speaker 2: think continues to shock me to this day, was how 1113 00:58:35,440 --> 00:58:38,200 Speaker 2: many people knew like this is not This was not 1114 00:58:38,320 --> 00:58:40,840 Speaker 2: a quiet cover up, Like two people saw it and 1115 00:58:40,880 --> 00:58:43,640 Speaker 2: then they just kept it to themselves for years. Dozens 1116 00:58:43,920 --> 00:58:47,080 Speaker 2: of dozens of people knew what happened to Henry Glover 1117 00:58:47,520 --> 00:58:50,760 Speaker 2: and either did nothing about it or actively helped cover 1118 00:58:50,840 --> 00:58:54,640 Speaker 2: it up. And so that is what has continuously stuck 1119 00:58:54,680 --> 00:58:57,880 Speaker 2: with me all these years. We are so inclined to 1120 00:58:57,920 --> 00:59:00,760 Speaker 2: just think these are bad people doing bad things, but 1121 00:59:01,120 --> 00:59:04,760 Speaker 2: this exists in the context of a culture, inside a 1122 00:59:04,800 --> 00:59:08,120 Speaker 2: culture that was willing to dehumanize people like Henry Glover 1123 00:59:08,440 --> 00:59:11,840 Speaker 2: and other low income black people in that community. It's 1124 00:59:11,880 --> 00:59:16,120 Speaker 2: about cultures and policing that protect their own, that are 1125 00:59:16,160 --> 00:59:19,520 Speaker 2: willing to hide the truth of wrongdoing when it's their 1126 00:59:19,560 --> 00:59:23,960 Speaker 2: own people. And it's about just general societal breakdown in 1127 00:59:24,120 --> 00:59:27,400 Speaker 2: not taking care of some of the most marginalized people 1128 00:59:27,440 --> 00:59:28,280 Speaker 2: in our communities. 1129 00:59:39,560 --> 00:59:42,480 Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime stories, check out the 1130 00:59:42,480 --> 00:59:45,400 Speaker 1: audio versions of my books The Ghost Club, All That 1131 00:59:45,480 --> 00:59:48,720 Speaker 1: Is Wicked, and American Sherlock, and Don't Forget. There are 1132 00:59:48,800 --> 00:59:52,600 Speaker 1: twelve seasons of my historical true crime podcast, Tenfold More 1133 00:59:52,600 --> 00:59:56,240 Speaker 1: Wicked right here in this podcast feed, scroll back and 1134 00:59:56,280 --> 00:59:59,040 Speaker 1: give them a listen if you haven't already. This has 1135 00:59:59,080 --> 01:00:03,600 Speaker 1: been an exactly write production. Our senior producer is Alexis Amrosi. 1136 01:00:03,960 --> 01:00:08,440 Speaker 1: Our Associate producer is Christina Chamberlain. This episode was mixed 1137 01:00:08,440 --> 01:00:12,360 Speaker 1: by John Bradley. Curtis Heath is our composer. Artwork by 1138 01:00:12,480 --> 01:00:16,880 Speaker 1: Nick Toga. Executive produced by Georgia Hardstark, Karen Kilgarriff and 1139 01:00:16,960 --> 01:00:21,320 Speaker 1: Danielle Kramer. Follow Wicked Words on Instagram at tenfold More 1140 01:00:21,360 --> 01:00:24,680 Speaker 1: Wicked and on Facebook at Wicked Words Pod.