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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio News.

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Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots podcast.

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Speaker 3: I'm Joe Wisenthal and I'm Tracy Alloway.

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Speaker 4: Tracy, guess what what. I'm going to Vegas tomorrow.

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Speaker 3: I know you are. I'm trying to I'm trying to

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Speaker 3: restrain myself. The irony is that you left me high

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Speaker 3: and dry in Vegas last time. But now for the

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Speaker 3: next week, I'm going to hear how much you love Vegas.

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Speaker 4: Come out. It's not too late to get a ticket.

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Speaker 3: I would love to come out.

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Speaker 4: You're welcome.

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Speaker 3: But I'm doing the opposite of Vegas. I'm going to Vermont.

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Speaker 4: Oh yeah, you're going antiquing.

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Speaker 3: That's right.

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Speaker 4: I'm not sure if I was supposed to say that.

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Speaker 3: The pinnacle of middle age. Thank you, Joe.

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Speaker 4: It's the well, it's both.

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Speaker 2: It's it's two expressions of middle aged news, right, like

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Speaker 2: I'm going out with or friends. We're I'm gonna go

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Speaker 2: see a dead end Coo show at the Sphere.

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Speaker 3: That's something other than middle aged.

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Speaker 2: I think like post middle age. I'm going to take

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Speaker 2: a road trip to the Hoover Dam. Maybe I'll get

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Speaker 2: some good infrastructure photos. And you have some good gamble.

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Speaker 2: I like to play poker, and you're gonna be in

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Speaker 2: Vermont antiquing. But you know what's something I find really interesting, Tracy,

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Speaker 2: and Vegas is booming despite the fact that for years

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Speaker 2: Vegas had this monopoly on gambling, and you would think, Okay,

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Speaker 2: now gambling is everywhere, it's on your phone, many more

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Speaker 2: jurisdictions have opened up casinos, and yet that doesn't really

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Speaker 2: seem to have slowed it down. Well.

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Speaker 3: I will say the last time I was in Vegas,

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Speaker 3: which was I guess October of last year, I did

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Speaker 3: notice some differences. So I was wandering around the big casinos,

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Speaker 3: as one does, and I was going past you know

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Speaker 3: those big sports spading areas where they have like the

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Speaker 3: armchairs and all recline in them and stare at this.

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Speaker 4: Big theater of like fifty.

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Speaker 3: Yeah exactly, and those looked pretty empty. So I kind

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Speaker 3: of wonder if, like, okay, people still like gambling at

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Speaker 3: table games or whatever, but maybe you're getting less interest

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Speaker 3: in the sports aspect of it, because why go all

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Speaker 3: the way to Vegas to watch a basketball game and

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Speaker 3: bet on it if you can do it from your

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Speaker 3: couch at home.

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Speaker 4: No, that is a good question. It would be interesting.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I feel like the last time I was

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Speaker 2: in Vegas, I don't remember exactly when, Like I think

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Speaker 2: there was like a big game going on, so like

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Speaker 2: that environment of the casino can get like super raucous

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Speaker 2: and exciting, but it still does raise questions.

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Speaker 4: I mean about the rise of being able to.

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Speaker 2: Bet literally on your phone everywhere and basically every state

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Speaker 2: I think, or close to it.

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Speaker 3: I have a random collection of thoughts on this topic,

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Speaker 3: which is kind of ironic because I know absolutely nothing

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Speaker 3: about sports better and now you're going to rattle off

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Speaker 3: a p now I'm gonna rat it. Here. Here are

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Speaker 3: all my thoughts on it. Well, one, I remember when

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Speaker 3: I used to come to the US from other places,

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Speaker 3: a big culture shock was when you would watch TV

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Speaker 3: and there would be all those ads from metas and

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Speaker 3: it would be like talk to your doctor and request

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Speaker 3: the specific medicine, which doesn't happen as far as I know,

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Speaker 3: in any other country in the world. Now, I think

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Speaker 3: the big culture shock is all the gambling ads. Like

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Speaker 3: you watch TV and there are all these ads going, oh,

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Speaker 3: you know, we'll pay you an initial lump sum to

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Speaker 3: get on our platform. And make a few bets and

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Speaker 3: you're gonna win all this money and it's gonna be

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Speaker 3: loads of fun. Blah blah blah blah blah. And then

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Speaker 3: the other thing I was thinking is I feel like

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Speaker 3: a lot of the gambling operators, and this isn't exclusive

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Speaker 3: to the sports betters, but maybe to the casinos in

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Speaker 3: Vegas as well, I think like, I feel like they're

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Speaker 3: getting smarter with a lot of the way they're operating.

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Speaker 3: So again, the last time I was in Vegas, I noticed,

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Speaker 3: for instance, this isn't necessarily new, but it was kind

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Speaker 3: of more extreme. The minimum bets on tables change a

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Speaker 3: lot between the weekend and the weekdays, but I feel

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Speaker 3: like they change even more than they used to, Like,

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Speaker 3: I feel like the pricing is more dynamic. And Joe,

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Speaker 3: I know you make fun of me, but it ruined.

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Speaker 3: It ruined my cap system.

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Speaker 2: Tracy claims to have had a crap system and my

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Speaker 2: response says, no, she didn't.

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Speaker 4: And if you think you, I never said it was.

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Speaker 3: A good system. I just said it was a system. Okay, okay,

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Speaker 3: it was a way of betting. And I couldn't do

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Speaker 3: it last time because.

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Speaker 2: You know, it's getting more sophisticated about pricing strategies. But

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Speaker 2: you're right, like sports media, as everyone knows these days,

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Speaker 2: is just completely suffused with gambling and it sort of

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Speaker 2: funds the whole thing. And gambling has become not just

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Speaker 2: more prevalent and more exotic. And of course you can

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Speaker 2: bet on the games, and you can always bet on

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Speaker 2: the spread, but now you can bet on like who's

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Speaker 2: going to be winning at the end of each quarter,

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Speaker 2: or you could be betting on how many home runs

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Speaker 2: a certain player will hit, or how many three pointers

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Speaker 2: a certain hit like, and you know, it's basically just

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Speaker 2: like what we've seen in the stock market. Used to

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Speaker 2: just be able to buy stocks and now everyone's doing

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Speaker 2: like zero day options and stuff and endless sort of

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Speaker 2: like exotic number of bets have just become, you know,

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Speaker 2: become part of how people talk about sports.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that was the other thing I was going to say.

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Speaker 3: So a weird thing now is watching sports some of

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Speaker 3: the commentators will like call out these specific plays and

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Speaker 3: like mention the odds and the payouts and things, which

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Speaker 3: is completely different to the way sports used to be.

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Speaker 4: Totally I forget what it was.

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Speaker 2: There was some screenshots someone took recently of like a

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Speaker 2: baseball game, and you know, it used to be like

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Speaker 2: you look at a batter and it was like the

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Speaker 2: stats they would show would be like batting average, home

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Speaker 2: runs and RBIs and that was kind of it, and

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Speaker 2: maybe steals or something like that. And now like there's

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Speaker 2: all these other stats that are not really even probably

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Speaker 2: that interested interesting to normal fans unless you have a

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Speaker 2: bet placed. And so there's been this proliferation. Of course,

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Speaker 2: this a lot of like anxiety, tons of articles about

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Speaker 2: young men getting addicted to gambling and what does it

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Speaker 2: say about this generation and all kinds of stuff, and

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Speaker 2: so there's a lot going on in sports better.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, we need to dig into it. As I said,

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Speaker 3: I know nothing about this particular area. I don't think

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Speaker 3: I've ever placed a sports bet in my life. What

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Speaker 3: horse racing? Yeah, but does that even I don't know if. Okay,

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Speaker 3: but this is something that I feel like it's growing

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Speaker 3: a lot.

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Speaker 1: Ye.

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Speaker 3: Clearly there's a lot of money involved here. So I'm

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Speaker 3: very excited about digging into it.

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Speaker 2: I'm very excited. Well, I pleased to say. We really

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Speaker 2: do have the perfect guest today. We're going to be

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Speaker 2: speaking with Isaac rose Berman. He is himself a professional

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Speaker 2: sports better. He also writes about the industry on a website,

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Speaker 2: how Gambling Works dot com. He also talks about the

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Speaker 2: regulatory side and some of the tactics that businesses us to,

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Speaker 2: as you say, hook people in for the first time

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Speaker 2: and keep them betting, and I guess, from the perspective

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Speaker 2: of the businesses, keep them losing money. So, Isaac, thank

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Speaker 2: you so much for coming out nod Laws.

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Speaker 5: Thank you so much for having me a big fan

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Speaker 5: of the show. Happy to be here.

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Speaker 4: Thank you so much.

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Speaker 2: I introduced you as a professional sports better. Is that

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Speaker 2: really true? You can be a professional sports better. I mean,

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Speaker 2: I'm aware of it, but what actually do you do?

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Speaker 5: That's a great question. So, unlike other casino games, it

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Speaker 5: is possible to win on sports betting because the odds

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Speaker 5: are dynamic and they're constantly changing. So when you know

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Speaker 5: Tracy's going to play craps whenever she sits down at

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Speaker 5: the table, that the odds are always stacked against her

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Speaker 5: and they're never changing, she cactus in, Yeah, but when

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Speaker 5: it comes to sports betting, things are constantly changing. So

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Speaker 5: to give you a super simple example, you know, let's

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Speaker 5: say the Lakers are playing and Lebron James gets announced injured.

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Speaker 5: If you rush to your sports book and you place

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Speaker 5: a bet on the opposing team before they've factored in

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Speaker 5: the information that Lebron is injured, you're going to lock

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Speaker 5: in a really good price before the odds update. And

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Speaker 5: so when it comes to being a professional sports better,

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Speaker 5: it's all about identifying value. And by value we mean

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Speaker 5: bets which have a greater expected return than the amount staked.

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Speaker 5: So if someone offers you, you know, bet ten dollars

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Speaker 5: to win eleven dollars on a coin flip, and it's

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Speaker 5: a fair coin flip, even if you place that and

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Speaker 5: you guess the wrong side ten times in a row

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Speaker 5: and you keep losing. In the long run, if you

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Speaker 5: keep doing that, you're going to make money. And that's

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Speaker 5: how professional sports betters make money, by constantly placing bets

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Speaker 5: which have a positive expected return.

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Speaker 3: So, just so we can better understand this dynamic, walk

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Speaker 3: us through your sort of day to day as a

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Speaker 3: professional sports gambler. What kind of opportunities are you trying

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Speaker 3: to identify? And then how do you decide how much money,

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Speaker 3: for instance, to apply to each individual bet.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, that's a great question. So it really depends on

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Speaker 5: you know, what sports are in season. So right now

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Speaker 5: you know end of the NBA, but there's a lot

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Speaker 5: of MLB things like tennis or year round, and so

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Speaker 5: it does depend on the sports they're in general. Two

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Speaker 5: ways of identifying profitable sports bets. The first is you

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Speaker 5: can take sort of a market based approach. And by

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Speaker 5: a market based approach, what we mean is there are

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Speaker 5: tons of sportsbooks out there, and as Joe mentioned, they're

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Speaker 5: all offering all of these different kind of bets, and

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Speaker 5: you if you constantly scroll through all of the odds,

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Speaker 5: you're going to find slight miss pricings. So let's say

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Speaker 5: you know everybody has you know that Yankees is two

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Speaker 5: to one underdogs, and one sportsbook has them as a

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Speaker 5: three to one underdog. You know, you can identify that

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Speaker 5: as off market and you can place that bet. So

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Speaker 5: so one part is, I.

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Speaker 3: See, so you're you're not saying that like the platforms

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Speaker 3: have the odds wrong, You're trying to identify like outliers

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Speaker 3: among the platforms.

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Speaker 5: That's exactly right. Yeah, So that's that's probably the main

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Speaker 5: way that the majority of professional or winning sports betters

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Speaker 5: make moneies by identa defying markets. Which are simply mispriced.

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Speaker 5: And for that you don't need any special sports knowledge.

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Speaker 5: You just need to have a screen with all the

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Speaker 5: odds and constantly be scrolling through them and looking for

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Speaker 5: price changes and looking for, you know, books that are

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Speaker 5: slow to update. The other way to do it, which

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Speaker 5: is a lot harder and a lot rare, is to

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Speaker 5: basically create your own numbers. So you say, Okay, you know,

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Speaker 5: I know exactly how much each player is worth. I

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Speaker 5: know what the weather is going to be today, I

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Speaker 5: know these matchups, and so I'm going to generate kind

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Speaker 5: of from scratch, from my own model the odds and

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Speaker 5: then apply that to the market. And when it comes

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Speaker 5: to major liquid markets like the NFL or the NBA

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Speaker 5: or the MLB, that's really really hard to do, and

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Speaker 5: there are very very few people who can do that,

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Speaker 5: but those are the people who make the most money.

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Speaker 4: To zoom out even further.

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Speaker 2: So it's like there's some big gang crosstown rivalry Yankees

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Speaker 2: versus Mets, there's some odds or something. Where does that

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Speaker 2: price initially come from? Well, guess through how that line

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Speaker 2: gets established.

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Speaker 5: It's a great question. So when you log onto your

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Speaker 5: DraftKings or FanDuel account, you're going to see all of

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Speaker 5: these different bets, and you're going to see all these

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Speaker 5: different prices, and those prices come from one or two places.

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Speaker 5: The first type of bet you're going to see is

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Speaker 5: the major market odds, like you mentioned. You know who's

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Speaker 5: going to win, how much they're going to win by

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Speaker 5: the total, and what those those odds come from a

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Speaker 5: price discovery process. And what that means is that a

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Speaker 5: market maker sports book, not Draft Kings or FanDuel, but

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Speaker 5: places like Pinnacle, places like bet Chris. What they do is, well,

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Speaker 5: before the game starts, they basically throw out a price

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Speaker 5: and they don't really know if that price is good.

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Speaker 5: And what they say is, you know, anybody can come

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Speaker 5: bet here. You can only bet a very small amount,

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Speaker 5: maybe fifty dollars, maybe one hundred dollars, and they keep

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Speaker 5: taking bets on both sides. And what happens is all

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Speaker 5: of the smart people they go there and they say,

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Speaker 5: you know, we're going to bet on this side because

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Speaker 5: it's good, and they keep adjusting their price based on

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Speaker 5: the action. And then eventually, when sort of that betting

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Speaker 5: flurry has has settled, then DraftKings comes in and says Okay,

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Speaker 5: you know, now we know that this price is roughly accurate,

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Speaker 5: we're going to take it. And then when it comes

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Speaker 5: to all of the derivative bets like you mentioned before,

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Speaker 5: stuff like how many home runs someone is going to hit,

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Speaker 5: you know, whether or not this player is going to

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Speaker 5: get seven threes. All that stuff is generated by third

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Speaker 5: party content providers who take the input of the odds

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Speaker 5: from those liquid markets and generate the odds for all

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Speaker 5: these other things. So when you look at a sportsbook,

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Speaker 5: you know either the odds are coming from a market

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Speaker 5: maker or they're coming from a model based on that

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Speaker 5: market maker price.

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Speaker 3: Wait, can you talk a little bit more about those

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Speaker 3: sort of like single plays or exotic bets or whatever

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Speaker 3: you call them, because to me, it seems almost if

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Speaker 3: you're watching a baseball game, to me, it seems almost

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Speaker 3: random whether or not there's going to be a home

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Speaker 3: run or two home runs or whatever. And I take

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Speaker 3: the point that they're deriving those odds from maybe the

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Speaker 3: more liquid markets, like which team is better overall or whatever,

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Speaker 3: but it still seems kind of hard to price.

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Speaker 5: No, it's really really hard, and that's why there's you know,

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Speaker 5: in general, there are lots of different content providers. So

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Speaker 5: the person who's deriving the prices for how many home

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Speaker 5: runs there are in a game is not going to

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Speaker 5: be the same person who's deriving, you know, how many

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Speaker 5: three pointers there are in a game. So a sportsbook

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Speaker 5: is going to work with a bunch of different content

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Speaker 5: providers to get the odds for all these different markets

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Speaker 5: and their jobs. That's all they're trying to do. And

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Speaker 5: in general, the sports book knows that these lines aren't perfect,

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Speaker 5: which is why. You know, if you want to walk

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Speaker 5: into a sport, into a casino or go to a

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Speaker 5: sportsbook and bet a million dollars on the Yankees, they're

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Speaker 5: going to say, you know, oh sure, come on in.

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Speaker 5: You know, he'll give you a free hotel room, we'll

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Speaker 5: give you anything. But if you walk in you say

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Speaker 5: I want to bet, you know, a million dollars on

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Speaker 5: this player to get under one point five three pointers,

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Speaker 5: obviously they're not going to accept that bet because they

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Speaker 5: know there's inside information. And so that's why in general,

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Speaker 5: in these markets there are both lower limits and there's

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Speaker 5: higher scrutiny on the sportsbook side, and they also add

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Speaker 5: a higher house edge, so you have to win by

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Speaker 5: a much higher margin compared to betting on just who's

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Speaker 5: going to win or how much they're going to win by.

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Speaker 3: That was exactly what I was going to ask. So

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Speaker 3: presumably they sort of like pad their own edge in

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Speaker 3: order to offset the uncertainty.

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Speaker 5: That's exactly the right. So if you're if you're throwing

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Speaker 5: darts at a sportsbook and you know you're picking winners

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Speaker 5: and losers randomly, you're going to lose four to five percent.

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Speaker 5: But if you're throwing darts at you know, this player

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Speaker 5: to get X number of home runs, you're going to

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Speaker 5: lose ten percent, twenty percent. When we talk about things

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Speaker 5: like same game parlays, these bets where you're combining this

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Speaker 5: team to win, this guy to get a home run

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Speaker 5: in this picture, to get a lot of strikeouts, unless

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Speaker 5: you're doing it in a way that really beats the market,

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Speaker 5: you're going to be losing thirty to forty percent, really

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Speaker 5: really high margins in a way that's really that's very

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Speaker 5: new and not seen until quite recently.

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Speaker 2: And of course those are the bets that they really

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Speaker 2: are like pushing more, and that's why we're flooded with

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Speaker 2: all these exotic statistics to encourage this kind of action.

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Speaker 2: I have to imagine that with these exotic bets, whether

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Speaker 2: it's like, again, how many home runs someone's going to

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Speaker 2: win in or you mentioned tennis, how many sets it'll

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Speaker 2: take for one player to beat another, that while the

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Speaker 2: house does have a structurally higher edge for reasons that

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Speaker 2: you've described, I assume these are the markets also which

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Speaker 2: because they're less efficiently prized, because the fans just don't

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Speaker 2: set the line that one can find actual I don't know,

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Speaker 2: maybe alpha is the word, but true mispriced bets.

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Speaker 4: Is that correct?

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Speaker 5: That's exactly right. So I think, you know, people think

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Speaker 5: that the hard part is finding profitable bets or even

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Speaker 5: you know, pure arbitrages, but it's really not the case,

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Speaker 5: especially when you look at the total number of bets

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Speaker 5: these companies are putting out. It's just impossible to price

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Speaker 5: everything perfectly all of the time. The issue is, you know,

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Speaker 5: once again, if you go into a sports book and

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Speaker 5: you say, I want to bet a million dollars on

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Speaker 5: this one person to get X number of strikeouts, they're gonna,

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Speaker 5: you know, raise their eyebrows at you. And if there's

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Speaker 5: a systemic error, they might fix it, or if you're

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Speaker 5: you keep winning, they're gonna shut you down. And so

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Speaker 5: the problem from a professional standpoint is not just identifying

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Speaker 5: those mispricings, but actually being able to bet enough money

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Speaker 5: and not get kicked out to make it work.

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Speaker 4: Well out, Tracy.

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Speaker 2: I had a friend years ago who is a semi

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Speaker 2: professional blackjack player. Most of the work that he did

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Speaker 2: was not really and the strategy, but just like, how

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Speaker 2: can he maximize his time at the table without the

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Speaker 2: odds of getting kicked out of the casino?

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Speaker 3: I never okay, hot take, I never understood why counting

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Speaker 3: cards is like not allowed at casinos. Isn't that just

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Speaker 3: playing the game? Well, I don't get it.

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Speaker 5: I agree with that, but the answer is that the

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Speaker 5: casinos make the rules and they.

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Speaker 4: Don't want to lose money. Yeah, okay, well seems like nonsense.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so you mentioned this idea that and Joe kind

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Speaker 3: of riffed on it. Just then, this idea that a

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Speaker 3: lot of the expertise of being a professional better is

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Speaker 3: just figuring out how you can stay at the table

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Speaker 3: for as long as possible or stay on the app

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Speaker 3: for as long as possible. How do the platforms I

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Speaker 3: know how the casinos do it, but how do the

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Speaker 3: platforms like identify you and then say, actually, we don't

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Speaker 3: want you to bet anymore or in this particular size.

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Speaker 5: It's a great question. So we kind of call it

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Speaker 5: the science versus the art of sports betting. So the

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Speaker 5: science of sports betting is figuring out what bets you

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Speaker 5: want to place. The art of sports betting is figuring

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Speaker 5: out how to place your bets in a way that

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Speaker 5: you don't actually kicked out. And so the problem is

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Speaker 5: that the way that sports books identify who's good is

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Speaker 5: the same way that professional betters place good bets, and

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Speaker 5: it's through something called CLV or closing line value. And

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Speaker 5: the idea there is that markets, in general, they get

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Speaker 5: more efficient, and so by the time a game has started,

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Speaker 5: the market is considered to be very efficient. And so

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Speaker 5: what I mean by that is, let's say you place

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Speaker 5: a bet on the Celtics, and when you place a bet,

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Speaker 5: they're big underdog, so you risk one dollar to win

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Speaker 5: five dollars. By the time the game starts, it's now

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Speaker 5: fifty to fifty, so it's one dollar to win one

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Speaker 5: dollar no matter what happens in that game. Even if

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Speaker 5: the Celtics lose, you placed a good bet. The odds

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Speaker 5: moved in your favor, and so from a professional standpoint,

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Speaker 5: that's how you know you placed a good bet. But

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Speaker 5: of course from the sportsbook side, they can also track

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Speaker 5: that on there end and say, Okay, this guy is

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Speaker 5: constantly getting the better of us. It doesn't matter if

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Speaker 5: he lost this specific bet, we're still going to kick

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Speaker 5: him out. And that's why, you know, I know many

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Speaker 5: people who have lost many thousands of dollars in sports

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Speaker 5: betting apps and they've still been limited or kicked out

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Speaker 5: of sports books because it's not that hard to tell

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Speaker 5: when someone is placing really good bets. It's pretty difficult

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Speaker 5: to be able to disguise the bets that you're placing.

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Speaker 3: Wait, and then what is the actual message? They just

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Speaker 3: say like you've been cut off.

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Speaker 5: So it really varies in general. When it comes to legal,

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Speaker 5: regulated sports books, they don't kick you out, but they'll

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Speaker 5: just limit the bet. They'll limit the bets that you

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Speaker 5: can place to a very very small amount. So you know,

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Speaker 5: if you might open up an account and at first

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Speaker 5: you can bet let's say a thousand dollars in this game,

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Speaker 5: once you place a few bets and they identified as

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Speaker 5: you you as good, maybe you can only bet fifty

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Speaker 5: dollars or sometimes you know, even as little as a

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Speaker 5: couple of dollars, or I've seen people limited to literal cents.

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Speaker 5: And that's because in general, the laws and a lot

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Speaker 5: of states are that they aren't allowed to kick you out.

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Speaker 5: But from a professional standpoint, if they're only letting you

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Speaker 5: bet a few dollars, it's really just not worth your while,

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Speaker 5: and so it's essentially the same as getting kicked out.

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Speaker 2: All right, Well, we've been leading up to the question,

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Speaker 2: but let's just go to it directly. Your professional sports better.

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Speaker 2: You've mentioned a couple of different strategies. What do you

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Speaker 2: do and how do you overcome the challenge of just

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Speaker 2: sort of these constraints.

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Speaker 5: So it's the million dollar question. Unfortunately, I can't tell

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Speaker 5: you all the specifics of what I do me a

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Speaker 5: bunch of money, but I can tell you in general

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Speaker 5: how people get around these links. The first thing is

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Speaker 5: you need a lot of accounts. If you go to

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Speaker 5: a place like New Jersey, there's twenty twenty five I

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Speaker 5: think legal regulated sportsbooks, and so any professional sports better

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Speaker 5: will have an account at all of those different sports books.

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Speaker 5: And that's important for two reasons. Not only does it

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Speaker 5: mean that if you get kicked out of one, you

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Speaker 5: have another to go to. But also it means that

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Speaker 5: you can constantly compare prices. So you know, let's say

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Speaker 5: if the best price for a game is on a

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Speaker 5: sportsbook that I don't have, it means that I can't

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Speaker 5: bet there, and that's bad. You know, this is a

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Speaker 5: game of relatively small margins, A few percent difference really,

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Speaker 5: you know, makes all the difference. And so you need

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Speaker 5: to have all of those different sports books to be

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Speaker 5: able to find the best price and when you get

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Speaker 5: kicked out, to make sure. So that's one way. The

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Speaker 5: other way is that you use you know, non non

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Speaker 5: regulated sports books. So there's two different types of ways

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Speaker 5: to bet on sports that's not on your legal regulated

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Speaker 5: sports books like your DraftKings and your FanDuel. The first

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Speaker 5: is offshore sites, and these are sites where you know

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00:18:57,119 --> 00:18:59,600
Speaker 5: you're going to be depositing and withdrawing and crypto. Most

436
00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:03,760
Speaker 5: likely they've been around for a while and they're still around,

437
00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:06,320
Speaker 5: and they're used by a lot of both professionals and

438
00:19:06,359 --> 00:19:09,440
Speaker 5: recreational betters, and in general they're a little bit lax

439
00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:11,520
Speaker 5: or when it comes to kicking you out. The other

440
00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:15,399
Speaker 5: is bookies. Like if you think of what Shoho Tani's

441
00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:17,600
Speaker 5: interpreter was using to place all those bets, he wasn't

442
00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:20,480
Speaker 5: betting on DraftKings. He was using a bookie. And the

443
00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:23,440
Speaker 5: benefit there is that a you're dealing with an individual,

444
00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:25,880
Speaker 5: so they might be you know, less savvy in terms

445
00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:28,919
Speaker 5: of detecting you if you're really good. And also you

446
00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:32,119
Speaker 5: can bet on credit, so instead of depositing one hundred

447
00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:34,080
Speaker 5: dollars like you would need to unfanduel, you can settle

448
00:19:34,119 --> 00:19:36,080
Speaker 5: up at the end of the week and a leverage exactly.

449
00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:38,080
Speaker 5: And so that's why a lot of the you know,

450
00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:42,240
Speaker 5: particularly high rollers, use bookies, like was the case with

451
00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:44,600
Speaker 5: ipeing Uzuhara. So another thing that a lot of people do,

452
00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:46,960
Speaker 5: obviously is you bet on other people's accounts. You know,

453
00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:50,960
Speaker 5: you go and you get your roommate's account, your mom's account,

454
00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:54,040
Speaker 5: your friend's account, and you're just constantly cycling through different accounts.

455
00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:56,280
Speaker 5: I'm not advocating for that, that's against the terms and

456
00:19:56,280 --> 00:19:58,560
Speaker 5: conditions of these sites, but that's just a reality. And

457
00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:01,719
Speaker 5: that's how a lot of betters able to get down

458
00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:04,240
Speaker 5: a sufficient amount of volume, especially when they're constantly getting

459
00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:06,280
Speaker 5: kicked out and the real thing is that you know,

460
00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:08,280
Speaker 5: you're just you have to disguise your bets in a

461
00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:11,080
Speaker 5: way that they don't they don't see or they don't

462
00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:13,639
Speaker 5: realize that what you're doing. And so one of the

463
00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:16,679
Speaker 5: one of the common ways that sportsbooks identify and profile

464
00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:19,240
Speaker 5: their customers is based on the first few bets that

465
00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:21,919
Speaker 5: you place. So one thing that a lot of people

466
00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:24,560
Speaker 5: do that's really quite silly, in my opinion, is you know,

467
00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:26,280
Speaker 5: you go into a book and you bet a bunch

468
00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:29,639
Speaker 5: of stuff that's pretty obviously a really smart bet. You know,

469
00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:31,800
Speaker 5: if you open up an account and you're betting the

470
00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:35,080
Speaker 5: maximum amount on you know, Bulgarian table tennis, and you

471
00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:37,239
Speaker 5: keep winning. And then you know, I have friends who

472
00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:38,840
Speaker 5: come to me and they're like, Isaac, you know, why

473
00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:40,080
Speaker 5: did I get kicked out of this book? And I

474
00:20:40,080 --> 00:20:41,960
Speaker 5: look at their bet history and they're betting on the

475
00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:45,280
Speaker 5: most obscure stuff at like random times for very large amounts,

476
00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:47,800
Speaker 5: and it's like, yeah, you know, these these companies aren't dumb.

477
00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:50,320
Speaker 5: So the main way is, you know, you when you

478
00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:52,480
Speaker 5: open up an account, you place a bunch of bets

479
00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:54,879
Speaker 5: which look kind of normal. You bet on some NBA.

480
00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:57,639
Speaker 5: Maybe these bets won't have a positive expect bet for

481
00:20:57,640 --> 00:20:59,919
Speaker 5: the home team exactly exactly. You know you're in New

482
00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:02,120
Speaker 5: yor you want to bet on the Yankees, you place

483
00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:03,760
Speaker 5: a bunch of bets, which in the short run they

484
00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:05,639
Speaker 5: might lose a little bit of money, but in the

485
00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:07,320
Speaker 5: long run they'll make you money because they're kind of

486
00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:08,639
Speaker 5: putting the sportsbook.

487
00:21:08,119 --> 00:21:11,000
Speaker 3: Off your set. This reminds me. So I finally opened

488
00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:13,439
Speaker 3: a Spotify account the other day. I didn't have it

489
00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:15,200
Speaker 3: for a long time because I was an Abu Dhabi

490
00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:17,760
Speaker 3: and you weren't allowed to have Spotify over there, and

491
00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:20,080
Speaker 3: so I just waited a long time. And I felt

492
00:21:20,119 --> 00:21:23,879
Speaker 3: so much pressure choosing that first song because I was like,

493
00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:26,840
Speaker 3: this is going to be my identity and it's dictated

494
00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:29,240
Speaker 3: by the algo forever. What did I pick?

495
00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:29,399
Speaker 5: Oh?

496
00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:32,920
Speaker 3: I did Beyonce Texas hold on okay solid, Yeah, we'll see,

497
00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:35,399
Speaker 3: We'll see how that goes. My impression is that the

498
00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:38,760
Speaker 3: American market, because in many ways it's a lot more liberalized,

499
00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:42,880
Speaker 3: at least compared to Europe and the UK, that it's

500
00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:45,600
Speaker 3: kind of seen as like this holy grail money maker

501
00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:48,439
Speaker 3: for a lot of international operators. And you touched on

502
00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:51,000
Speaker 3: some of the offshore operators just then. But I think

503
00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:54,960
Speaker 3: we have big European gambling companies that are coming in

504
00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:58,320
Speaker 3: as well. Do you notice a big difference between the

505
00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:00,680
Speaker 3: US platforms versus the European ones.

506
00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:03,560
Speaker 5: It's a great question. So this in general, that the

507
00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:06,280
Speaker 5: European book making model has been adopted in the US.

508
00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:08,840
Speaker 5: You know, FanDuel, the largest sports book is owned by Flutter,

509
00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:10,879
Speaker 5: which is which is based in the UK. You know,

510
00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:14,399
Speaker 5: William Hill partners with Caesars, also a UK based company.

511
00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:17,880
Speaker 5: And in general, the European model is viewed as much

512
00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:20,119
Speaker 5: less friendly towards winning players, and what that means is

513
00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:23,240
Speaker 5: much more aggressive in terms of how quickly you limit

514
00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:25,920
Speaker 5: people in terms of, you know, even if there is,

515
00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:28,040
Speaker 5: let's say a seventy five percent chance that this person

516
00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:30,520
Speaker 5: might be a winner, the European book making model is

517
00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:32,040
Speaker 5: we don't we don't want their action at all. And

518
00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:34,560
Speaker 5: it's in general, you know, the way it used to

519
00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:36,720
Speaker 5: work is if you were a professional better or a

520
00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:39,720
Speaker 5: smart better, sometimes sportsbooks would accept your action because then

521
00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:41,680
Speaker 5: they could shade their lines. You know, they say, Okay,

522
00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:43,719
Speaker 5: this guy's winning and he's betting on this team, so

523
00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:46,280
Speaker 5: maybe we can move the line over in general these

524
00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:49,120
Speaker 5: companies today. Part of that is the European book making model.

525
00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:51,119
Speaker 5: Part of that is just you know, there's more information now,

526
00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:53,480
Speaker 5: they don't need information from the individual better, they don't

527
00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:55,000
Speaker 5: care as much, and so they're more willing to just

528
00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:56,879
Speaker 5: kick you out or limit you to one or two dollars.

529
00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:01,400
Speaker 2: I want to go back to this constraint on bedsizing,

530
00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:05,320
Speaker 2: because this seems to be a way that sports betting

531
00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:11,280
Speaker 2: is fundamentally different than'd say, trading options. Whereas if you know,

532
00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:14,280
Speaker 2: if you're trading options and you're really good at it,

533
00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:17,680
Speaker 2: suddenly like you know, you're broker is not going to say, oh,

534
00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:20,320
Speaker 2: you can only trade a thousand dollars or options. And

535
00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:23,639
Speaker 2: in fact, I think generally speaking with financial markets, the

536
00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:26,159
Speaker 2: better you are, probably the more liberal line of credit

537
00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:28,959
Speaker 2: you're going to get, and you know, the more leverage

538
00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:32,560
Speaker 2: you can get and so forth. This seems really unfair.

539
00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:36,320
Speaker 2: It seems like, Okay, here's this platform that anyone can use,

540
00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:39,000
Speaker 2: but they're pretty good at identifying who's good at it,

541
00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:41,720
Speaker 2: and they're pretty good at identifying who's bad at it.

542
00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:42,760
Speaker 2: It seems unfair to.

543
00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:45,120
Speaker 5: Me, you know, I mean, I completely agree. I don't

544
00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:46,880
Speaker 5: spend too much time thinking about it, because I don't

545
00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:48,840
Speaker 5: think it's good a champion, and the reality is that

546
00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:50,760
Speaker 5: these are private companies. They can they can do what

547
00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:53,479
Speaker 5: they want. I think actually the more predatory thing is

548
00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:56,560
Speaker 5: not that they limit winners, but that they actually expand

549
00:23:56,600 --> 00:23:59,360
Speaker 5: those limits if you're a big loser and about that sure,

550
00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:01,240
Speaker 5: and so you know, when you open up an account,

551
00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:03,359
Speaker 5: let's say the limit is, you know, one thousand dollars

552
00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:05,119
Speaker 5: on a bet. If you place a few bets and

553
00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:07,080
Speaker 5: they think that you're really smart, it might go down

554
00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:09,040
Speaker 5: to you know, ten dollars. But if they if you

555
00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:10,840
Speaker 5: keep losing a lot of money and you keep losing

556
00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:13,880
Speaker 5: and redepositing, maybe you get into their VIP program, those

557
00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:17,040
Speaker 5: limits often can increase to five ten. I've seen accounts

558
00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:19,199
Speaker 5: where you know, the person is able to bet fifty

559
00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:21,520
Speaker 5: times what a standard person is able to bet. And

560
00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:24,080
Speaker 5: obviously the only reason that's the case is because the

561
00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:26,760
Speaker 5: companies know that these people are our losers. And so

562
00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:29,800
Speaker 5: from a professional standpoint, the holy grail is what we

563
00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:32,560
Speaker 5: call flipping a whale, which is basically what you take

564
00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:35,080
Speaker 5: someone who historically has lost a lot of money and

565
00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:36,720
Speaker 5: is you know, in good with the casino, they can

566
00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:38,840
Speaker 5: bet however much they want, and you say, okay, we're

567
00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:40,440
Speaker 5: going to work together now, and you're going to place

568
00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:44,760
Speaker 5: these bets for me. And because they've already been profiled

569
00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:46,960
Speaker 5: as someone who's not a good better, the sports book

570
00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:48,760
Speaker 5: is more likely to take their action for large amounts.

571
00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:50,760
Speaker 5: And so that's sort of the real holy grail of

572
00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:53,600
Speaker 5: professional sports betting, and that's you know, people like Phil

573
00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:58,080
Speaker 5: Mickelson Ashton Kutcher famously work with professional betting groups because

574
00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:01,320
Speaker 5: they were high profile figures who identify who were identified

575
00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:03,720
Speaker 5: as you know, whales and then they were flipped.

576
00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:06,199
Speaker 3: Do professional sports betters do you have a lot of

577
00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:08,640
Speaker 3: privacy concerns in the sense that you want to make

578
00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:12,000
Speaker 3: sure that like a platform isn't using cookies to trace

579
00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:14,639
Speaker 3: where you're going around the Internet, and you use a

580
00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:16,480
Speaker 3: VPN and stuff like that to make that.

581
00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:20,720
Speaker 5: So yes, and know that one thing that modern sports books,

582
00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:23,399
Speaker 5: especially legal regulated sports books, are really good at doing

583
00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:25,800
Speaker 5: is telling where you are, telling your location. So if

584
00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:28,359
Speaker 5: you try to, you know, have a VPN that puts

585
00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:29,960
Speaker 5: you in a different state, you won't be able to

586
00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:32,280
Speaker 5: use fandul or draft cans. They're very good at that.

587
00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:35,800
Speaker 5: So you know, obviously these companies like any you know,

588
00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:38,159
Speaker 5: modern technology company, they're getting all this data about you.

589
00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:40,000
Speaker 5: When you sign up for a sports book. They know

590
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:42,680
Speaker 5: what your birthday is, they know how old you are,

591
00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:45,000
Speaker 5: they know where you live, your address, they know all

592
00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:46,719
Speaker 5: of you know, the New York source security number, all

593
00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:48,840
Speaker 5: this information, so you do kind of give that up.

594
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:50,720
Speaker 5: They also probably know a lot more, you know, when

595
00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:53,719
Speaker 5: you log into the app. They're tracking everything, but there's

596
00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:54,919
Speaker 5: nothing you can really do about it.

597
00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:59,320
Speaker 2: Going back to pricing, and you mentioned tennis, but you

598
00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:02,440
Speaker 2: mentioned these you know, the more obscure, the less like

599
00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:05,800
Speaker 2: you know, Bulgarian soccer, tennis, et cetera.

600
00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:07,960
Speaker 4: Talk to us a little bit more about.

601
00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:10,640
Speaker 3: Like how you just suggested all of tennis is obscure.

602
00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:14,840
Speaker 2: Well, you know, it sounds in the yeah, right, Tennis

603
00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:17,479
Speaker 2: is not in itself obscure, but I guess compared to

604
00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:20,840
Speaker 2: some of the major sports. Talk to us about that process,

605
00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:24,879
Speaker 2: because again, it doesn't sound like a science where it's like, okay,

606
00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:28,600
Speaker 2: you have the liquid markets setting the line and then

607
00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:31,880
Speaker 2: you try to back out implications. It sounds like back

608
00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:34,960
Speaker 2: out implications from that line for what it means. So

609
00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:38,200
Speaker 2: imagine if like who's even big at tennis, And I'm

610
00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:40,280
Speaker 2: still my head is still in like the federal Nadal

611
00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:44,720
Speaker 2: era or Djokovic, but Djokovic, Nadal, Djokovic is the edge.

612
00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:47,000
Speaker 2: Then you try to derive some price where he's going

613
00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:49,520
Speaker 2: to win. In three four, talk us a little bit

614
00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:52,480
Speaker 2: more about that process of backing out the price for

615
00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:57,040
Speaker 2: the derivatives from from the sort of headline liquid.

616
00:26:56,800 --> 00:26:58,960
Speaker 5: Per It's a great question. So the reality is it's

617
00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:00,639
Speaker 5: it's just not a science at all. And I think

618
00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:03,200
Speaker 5: what's what's really important here is what Tracy mentioned before,

619
00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:06,320
Speaker 5: which is that they add a huge additional margin to

620
00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:09,080
Speaker 5: these derivative and prop markets. And so what that means

621
00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:11,600
Speaker 5: is that if there's you know, a thirty percent house

622
00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:13,760
Speaker 5: edge in a market, even if you can have a

623
00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:16,199
Speaker 5: huge edge, you know, of twenty or twenty five percent,

624
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:20,280
Speaker 5: it's still very very difficult to actually beat these markets.

625
00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:23,399
Speaker 5: And the incentives from a betting company standpoint are not

626
00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:26,520
Speaker 5: actually necessarily to have these prices be super super efficient.

627
00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:29,640
Speaker 5: They don't really care. They know that most people are

628
00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:32,480
Speaker 5: not going to bet, you know, on these random niche

629
00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:34,399
Speaker 5: markets that might be mispriced, and if they can, they

630
00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:36,880
Speaker 5: set the limits very low. What they They reason they

631
00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:38,720
Speaker 5: have these there is that they can have an expanded

632
00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:41,320
Speaker 5: betting menu so that when you log into the app,

633
00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:43,320
Speaker 5: you see, oh my god, you know there's all of

634
00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:45,440
Speaker 5: these options. And that's why you know, I'm going to

635
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:48,000
Speaker 5: use fan Duel as opposed to some random sportsbook which

636
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:50,560
Speaker 5: doesn't and FanDuel they know that, you know, you might

637
00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:51,760
Speaker 5: be able to get an edge here, and you know

638
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:53,520
Speaker 5: they're going to monitor that market and if you win,

639
00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:56,880
Speaker 5: they're going to limit you. But they don't really actually

640
00:27:56,960 --> 00:27:59,320
Speaker 5: care that much about getting the prices perfectly because a

641
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:01,080
Speaker 5: lot of these markets there just so that you know,

642
00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:02,919
Speaker 5: you can say, hey, we offer all these different markets.

643
00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:06,400
Speaker 3: What's been the impact on sports themselves? So we mentioned

644
00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:08,520
Speaker 3: you know, some of the commentators will sometimes bring up

645
00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:11,000
Speaker 3: specific plays if there are odds on them and they

646
00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:14,880
Speaker 3: suddenly pay off. But do you see like the actual

647
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:19,200
Speaker 3: activity of sports start to react to all this gambling

648
00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:21,280
Speaker 3: activity and all the money that's involved with it.

649
00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:23,800
Speaker 5: Sure, So I think it really depends, as Joe mentioned,

650
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:27,400
Speaker 5: you know, between these high profile and lower profile sports.

651
00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:30,280
Speaker 5: So in the NBA, these guys are making so much

652
00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:33,679
Speaker 5: money that it really doesn't impact the actual play. You know,

653
00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:36,960
Speaker 5: if you're making thirty million dollars a year, you know,

654
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:39,000
Speaker 5: you're not really ever going to be incentivized to throw

655
00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:42,320
Speaker 5: a game or really change the way you play. And

656
00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:44,480
Speaker 5: it doesn't really factor into there when it comes to

657
00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:46,960
Speaker 5: smaller sports. You know, we talk about tennis. There was

658
00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:49,480
Speaker 5: this big scandal last year where it turned out that

659
00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:52,120
Speaker 5: someone was running a giant match fixing ring, and it's

660
00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:54,440
Speaker 5: because the players playing were making you know, a few

661
00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:56,240
Speaker 5: hundred dollars a match, and the guy was able to

662
00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:58,240
Speaker 5: bet tens of thousands of dollars in their match. And

663
00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:00,680
Speaker 5: so when there's that mismatch, that's when you really get

664
00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:03,160
Speaker 5: these game integrity issues. You know, in the NBA there

665
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:06,120
Speaker 5: is recently the scandal with John tay Porter, and you know,

666
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:09,080
Speaker 5: he was a very low level player. He wasn't that

667
00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:12,800
Speaker 5: significant to the team. He wasn't able to impact the overall, uh,

668
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:15,320
Speaker 5: you know, the overall outcome of the game. But if

669
00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:17,720
Speaker 5: you bet, the fact is, you know, at modern sportsbook,

670
00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:19,760
Speaker 5: you can bet on anything. You can bet on whether

671
00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:22,280
Speaker 5: or not John tay Porter will have one or two threes, right,

672
00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:24,120
Speaker 5: And so that's really the issue when you get into

673
00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:28,400
Speaker 5: these player props for very niche unimportant players. For college

674
00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:30,320
Speaker 5: player props, this is a big debate right now whether

675
00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:31,920
Speaker 5: or not you should be able to bet on how

676
00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:34,080
Speaker 5: many points a college basketball player is going to have,

677
00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:36,960
Speaker 5: because obviously, you know, it's easier to control how many

678
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:38,760
Speaker 5: points you have versus throwing an entire game, and so

679
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:41,440
Speaker 5: from a game integrity standpoint from the major sports, I

680
00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:43,680
Speaker 5: don't really think it's an issue, but especially for smaller

681
00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:45,560
Speaker 5: markets and for prop markets, it really can be.

682
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:49,520
Speaker 3: But beyond the big risk of match fixing, do you see,

683
00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:53,880
Speaker 3: like I guess, more of an urge towards like satisfying

684
00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:57,000
Speaker 3: some of those like single plays like maybe I don't know,

685
00:29:57,160 --> 00:29:58,280
Speaker 3: like maybe the game like.

686
00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:00,000
Speaker 4: Which are really hard to hit a home run?

687
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:03,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, but not just I mean like rebounds or whatever.

688
00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:06,680
Speaker 5: So I think I think not from the player's standpoint,

689
00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:09,480
Speaker 5: but more from the viewer and the media standpoint. Like

690
00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:11,760
Speaker 5: you mentioned before, I think it's I think it's quite sad,

691
00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:13,960
Speaker 5: you know, even as someone who bets on sports is

692
00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:16,200
Speaker 5: my job, it's quite sad that when you watch a

693
00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:18,520
Speaker 5: game now you can't escape the betting. And you know,

694
00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:21,200
Speaker 5: you imagine a kid watching a game today he just

695
00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:24,600
Speaker 5: loves basketball or he loves baseball. He can't appreciate that

696
00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:27,480
Speaker 5: without being inundated with betting advertisements. And so I think

697
00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:30,480
Speaker 5: it's it's less about the game itself, but more every

698
00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:31,800
Speaker 5: everything surrounding.

699
00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:32,320
Speaker 3: It, the experience.

700
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:51,560
Speaker 2: Exactly, if I started sports betting, I don't think I'd

701
00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:53,120
Speaker 2: be very good at it, which is why I don't

702
00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:55,239
Speaker 2: do it. But I probably wouldn't be very good at it.

703
00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:57,800
Speaker 2: And then because you know, then the sports books would

704
00:30:57,840 --> 00:30:59,560
Speaker 2: let me bet more and more and I would lose

705
00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:00,480
Speaker 2: more more.

706
00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:02,320
Speaker 3: Money, but then you could sell your This is what

707
00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:03,240
Speaker 3: I was gonna ask.

708
00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:05,680
Speaker 2: Is there some you know, I don't need the u

709
00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:08,760
Speaker 2: URLs here or anything, but are there places where someone

710
00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:11,200
Speaker 2: like me, or a listener to odd laws who hasn't

711
00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:16,040
Speaker 2: been a successful uh sports better? No, seriously, Like, are

712
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:19,320
Speaker 2: you mentioned hunting whales? Yeah, I'm I'm actually curious about

713
00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:20,480
Speaker 2: how the whalehunt process worth.

714
00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:22,200
Speaker 5: Yes, so, no, it goes, it goes, It goes both

715
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:24,840
Speaker 5: ways both. You know, you can be let's say, you know,

716
00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:27,640
Speaker 5: a VIP customer and get really fed up, and you know,

717
00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:28,080
Speaker 5: I'm not.

718
00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:30,640
Speaker 2: Encouraging anyone to break it, of course, but I do

719
00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:32,440
Speaker 2: want to understand, of.

720
00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:35,560
Speaker 5: Course, of course, Yes, So It can work both ways.

721
00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:37,640
Speaker 5: You know, maybe if you're a professional better, you can

722
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:39,800
Speaker 5: go out and try to network and meet a bunch

723
00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:41,959
Speaker 5: of rich people who are all betting on sports and say, hey,

724
00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:43,520
Speaker 5: you know, give me give me your sportsman account.

725
00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:43,920
Speaker 3: I can win.

726
00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:46,120
Speaker 5: It can also work from the other way, where you

727
00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:48,239
Speaker 5: can maybe be a VIP customer who's lost, you know,

728
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:50,280
Speaker 5: tens hundreds of thousands of dollars and get really fed

729
00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:52,160
Speaker 5: up at STAMP some point, and then you can reach

730
00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:54,560
Speaker 5: out to a professional better or a betting group. You know,

731
00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:57,000
Speaker 5: maybe you DM them on Twitter and you say, hey,

732
00:31:57,000 --> 00:31:58,560
Speaker 5: you know, I have this betting account where they let

733
00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:00,360
Speaker 5: me bet whatever I want. You know, you're really good

734
00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:03,080
Speaker 5: at this, obviously, can we partner up? That's sort of

735
00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:03,960
Speaker 5: how it can work.

736
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:06,800
Speaker 3: So how does all of this play out in the end?

737
00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:08,240
Speaker 3: You know, if you had to make a bet on

738
00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:12,480
Speaker 3: the overall direction of the sports betting industry, what would

739
00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:14,600
Speaker 3: it look like. We've had this, you know, massive like

740
00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:17,760
Speaker 3: liberalization of the market. Lots of people are making money.

741
00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:21,240
Speaker 3: There's all these new book makers and platforms that are

742
00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:24,520
Speaker 3: coming in. Everyone has an app. Now what happens in

743
00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:27,800
Speaker 3: the end, do we see like a crackdown eventually as

744
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:29,440
Speaker 3: this becomes a bigger and bigger market.

745
00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:31,440
Speaker 5: So I think, just to take a slight issue with

746
00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:33,280
Speaker 5: part of that, which is that everybody's making a lot

747
00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:36,160
Speaker 5: of money, everybody's not making a lot of money. FanDuel

748
00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:38,840
Speaker 5: and Draftings, I think both just became profitable for the

749
00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:42,760
Speaker 5: first time this year, and pretty much every other sports

750
00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:44,120
Speaker 5: book is is losing money.

751
00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:47,200
Speaker 3: It's pretty great. How is that possible because they control

752
00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:50,040
Speaker 3: the odds, like I would have assumed as I just

753
00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:51,120
Speaker 3: said that they're minting.

754
00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:53,880
Speaker 5: Yes, so they're minting when you go in and place

755
00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:55,840
Speaker 5: a bet. But there are tons of other costs. You know,

756
00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:58,960
Speaker 5: every time you see fanduels the official sponsor of major

757
00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:00,760
Speaker 5: of a major sports league, that cost them a lot

758
00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:04,440
Speaker 5: of money. Customer acquisition costs are incredibly high. Actually, six

759
00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:07,800
Speaker 5: years ago today the Supreme Court struck down the rule

760
00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:11,560
Speaker 5: that prevented states from legalizing sports betting. But ever since then,

761
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:13,800
Speaker 5: these companies have spent a ton of money trying to

762
00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:17,360
Speaker 5: acquire customers, to increase their market share, to do all

763
00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:19,440
Speaker 5: sorts of branding deals. And so it's not just the

764
00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:23,120
Speaker 5: betting itself, but all of the things surrounding it. And

765
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:26,920
Speaker 5: in reality, sports betting is a relatively low margin game

766
00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:30,280
Speaker 5: compared to other casino games. So all of these companies,

767
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:33,480
Speaker 5: they actually don't care that much about sports betting. Most

768
00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:36,440
Speaker 5: of this is all an angle for online casino gambling,

769
00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:38,720
Speaker 5: because that's where the real money is. You know, even

770
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:41,720
Speaker 5: if you, let's say, lose five percent on every bet

771
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:44,320
Speaker 5: you place, that bet gives you entertainment for two hours.

772
00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:46,880
Speaker 5: If you're losing five percent at the roulette wheel and

773
00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:48,680
Speaker 5: you have that on your phone and you can click

774
00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:51,400
Speaker 5: it and play a new spin every five seconds, that's

775
00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:53,360
Speaker 5: where the real money comes. And so when we look

776
00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:56,520
Speaker 5: at more mature markets like Australia and the UK, where

777
00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:59,560
Speaker 5: online gambling has been around for longer, the vast majority

778
00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:01,920
Speaker 5: of profits for these companies come from online gambling. When

779
00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:04,680
Speaker 5: we look at the US right now, online it's called

780
00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:07,600
Speaker 5: ie gaming is legal in certain states. It's it's illegal

781
00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:09,400
Speaker 5: in most states. But in the states that it's legal,

782
00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:12,240
Speaker 5: the vast majority of the revenue is coming from eye gaming.

783
00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:14,680
Speaker 5: And and it's and that's uh and that's probably where

784
00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:16,520
Speaker 5: you're gonna see the industry headed. And that's what FanDuel

785
00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:19,000
Speaker 5: and draftings, that's where they envisioned most of their revenue

786
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:19,800
Speaker 5: coming from in the future.

787
00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:22,560
Speaker 2: I like gambling, I don't really like the table games.

788
00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:25,239
Speaker 2: I like casinos. The thought of like sitting there, like

789
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:26,319
Speaker 2: playing a virtual.

790
00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:27,680
Speaker 3: Spinning everything that depressed.

791
00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:28,360
Speaker 5: It's really depressive.

792
00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:29,120
Speaker 4: It's really depressing.

793
00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:32,560
Speaker 2: Actually, the most depressing thing that I've seen gambling wise

794
00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:35,560
Speaker 2: is not even a phone thing. I was in Iceland

795
00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:37,600
Speaker 2: one time and I was watching this one of the

796
00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:40,600
Speaker 2: TV channels. It was just a woman on the TV channel,

797
00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:44,120
Speaker 2: like spinning this roulette wheel on TV, and my god,

798
00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:46,640
Speaker 2: that's so bleak. But it also like it gets very

799
00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:48,680
Speaker 2: bleak when you sort of think about the person at

800
00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:52,440
Speaker 2: home watching a TV network it's a roulette wheel.

801
00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:55,040
Speaker 5: And and and then sorry and and so in the UK,

802
00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:57,279
Speaker 5: for example, we don't have this data yet in the US,

803
00:34:57,320 --> 00:35:00,319
Speaker 5: but it's incredibly concentrated. So in the UK, yeah, five

804
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:03,359
Speaker 5: percent of customers make up about eighty five percent of

805
00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:06,399
Speaker 5: the of the gambling operators revenue, and so we don't

806
00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:08,160
Speaker 5: have those numbers in the US, but you can assume

807
00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:10,359
Speaker 5: that it's relatively similar for sports betting. With eye game,

808
00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:12,880
Speaker 5: it's going to be even more, even more extreme.

809
00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:16,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, Joe, you mentioned bleak. You haven't seen bleak until

810
00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:20,600
Speaker 3: you've seen like Patty Power on Edgeware Road on like

811
00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:23,560
Speaker 3: a Sunday morning. That's depressing.

812
00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:26,239
Speaker 2: And it's like, you know, sometimes they show those you

813
00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:28,400
Speaker 2: see those like gifts or videos on Twitter of like

814
00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:31,560
Speaker 2: a bunch of old elderly people the casino, like hitting

815
00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:33,480
Speaker 2: the bed over them. At least they're like kind of

816
00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:35,600
Speaker 2: around their friends or something. But the idea of like

817
00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:38,080
Speaker 2: doing that equivalent, and like casinos are fun and maybe

818
00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:40,319
Speaker 2: even get a free drink or it's like lively and

819
00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:41,480
Speaker 2: whatever and you can smoke there.

820
00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:43,479
Speaker 3: But oh, that was the other thing that I noticed

821
00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:45,279
Speaker 3: when I was last in Vegas. You know a lot

822
00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:47,040
Speaker 3: of them. You can just put your like card in

823
00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:50,680
Speaker 3: down and just keep drawing on the same machine.

824
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:53,640
Speaker 4: It's super grim. But then so how bad you know?

825
00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:56,360
Speaker 2: The other element of this, and Tracy brought up to

826
00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:59,000
Speaker 2: concerns about like match fixing is like sort of like

827
00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:02,799
Speaker 2: one idle concern and is particularly acute at the NC

828
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:05,319
Speaker 2: double A level where there's no the players aren't really

829
00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:08,359
Speaker 2: making much money, if any, and you know, it's sort

830
00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:14,239
Speaker 2: of disturbs the purity of non professional amateur sports. But

831
00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:16,600
Speaker 2: then the other big concern is this sort of like

832
00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:18,719
Speaker 2: you know, people. There are tons of articles the world

833
00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:22,440
Speaker 2: of like young men out there, predominantly men addicted losing

834
00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:23,160
Speaker 2: tons of money.

835
00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:24,640
Speaker 4: How I don't know.

836
00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:27,680
Speaker 2: I guess it's subjective question because everyone's gonna have a

837
00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:31,000
Speaker 2: different perspective, but like, what is your view on what's

838
00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:31,359
Speaker 2: going on?

839
00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:33,799
Speaker 5: So it's a huge problem. And after I started writing

840
00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:36,319
Speaker 5: about this issue, a bunch of different addiction counselors and

841
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:38,560
Speaker 5: social workers who were working with these people reached out

842
00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:41,760
Speaker 5: to me. And you know, the predominant segment of the population,

843
00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:43,560
Speaker 5: as you mentioned that it was having problems, was was

844
00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:46,799
Speaker 5: young men. And in particular, what they told me is

845
00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:49,440
Speaker 5: that sports spinning is different than other forms of gambling

846
00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:52,080
Speaker 5: because we have this emotional attachment to it. You know,

847
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:54,400
Speaker 5: if you go to the casino, you're always gonna have

848
00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:56,480
Speaker 5: one friend who's like, you know, five reads. The next

849
00:36:56,480 --> 00:36:58,880
Speaker 5: one must be a black classic Classica.

850
00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:01,400
Speaker 3: I don't understand probabilities, so I never.

851
00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:03,240
Speaker 5: Have and but it's total But that's kind of fine.

852
00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:05,040
Speaker 5: But you know, when it comes to sports betting, people

853
00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:07,560
Speaker 5: are much more delusional when it comes to their ability

854
00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:10,400
Speaker 5: to win. So, you know, addiction counselors will tell me

855
00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:11,759
Speaker 5: it's like, you know, I have a sixteen year old

856
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:13,560
Speaker 5: boy who comes in. He says, you know, I'm a

857
00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:16,160
Speaker 5: huge Yankees fan. I know the Yankees are a lock tonight.

858
00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:18,280
Speaker 5: It doesn't matter if they're you know, three to one favorites,

859
00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:19,920
Speaker 5: four to one favorites, five to one favorites. I know

860
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:23,040
Speaker 5: they're a lock. And when you're delusional about your ability

861
00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:25,720
Speaker 5: to win, that's when this activity can get really risky

862
00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:28,760
Speaker 5: and you're more likely to double down, chase your losses,

863
00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:31,399
Speaker 5: and really exhibit signs of problem gambling. And so it's

864
00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:34,480
Speaker 5: not necessarily that that sports spending is riskier than other

865
00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:37,640
Speaker 5: forms of gambling, but particularly when it comes to young men,

866
00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:39,560
Speaker 5: and you know, it gets into this ego and you

867
00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:41,880
Speaker 5: think you have an edge when you don't, and that's

868
00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:44,319
Speaker 5: that's what's really scaring, what's really dangering. And there are

869
00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:46,440
Speaker 5: all of these companies which are actually you know, catering

870
00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:49,560
Speaker 5: to minors. Really they are these things called social sports

871
00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:52,840
Speaker 5: books where you don't necessarily deposit with real money, you

872
00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:56,600
Speaker 5: use like coins, and they're really targeting young kids. Apps

873
00:37:56,719 --> 00:38:00,279
Speaker 5: like Prize Picks an Underdog Daily Fantasy, which are essentially

874
00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:02,799
Speaker 5: just sports betting, and they're available to people you know

875
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:04,960
Speaker 5: that are eighteen and over instead of twenty one and over.

876
00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:08,239
Speaker 5: And you know, this, this delusion, combined with a lack

877
00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:10,880
Speaker 5: of understanding of you know, how much the house actually wins,

878
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:14,839
Speaker 5: is creating a huge swaths of the population who were

879
00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:17,040
Speaker 5: losing a lot of money, but they maybe don't even

880
00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:18,719
Speaker 5: realize it, or they think that, you know, they're just

881
00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:20,959
Speaker 5: one they're one bet away from from winning big.

882
00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:24,240
Speaker 3: I just have one more question, and you know, taking

883
00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:26,839
Speaker 3: all of this into account, what advice would you give

884
00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:29,200
Speaker 3: to Joe as he heads to Vegas.

885
00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:32,520
Speaker 5: It's a great question. I would say, you know, go

886
00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:34,359
Speaker 5: with go with the amount of money that that you're

887
00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:36,000
Speaker 5: willing to lose in and you know, try to stick

888
00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:40,320
Speaker 5: to it. Obviously easier, obviously easier said than done. You

889
00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:41,080
Speaker 5: don't have a good time.

890
00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:44,320
Speaker 2: So I recently lost my debit card and I realized,

891
00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:46,360
Speaker 2: you know, because Vegas needs cash.

892
00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:47,560
Speaker 4: So I asked my wife.

893
00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:49,160
Speaker 2: I was like, oh, I need to bring your debit

894
00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:51,799
Speaker 2: card to Vegas and she was like, why don't I.

895
00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:53,480
Speaker 4: Just get her cash? No I did.

896
00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:55,200
Speaker 2: I said, why didn't can I bring your debit card

897
00:38:55,239 --> 00:38:57,560
Speaker 2: to Vegas? And she said, well, how about I just

898
00:38:57,600 --> 00:39:01,040
Speaker 2: give you some cash? And then the limit you're gambling

899
00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:03,120
Speaker 2: to whatever the amount of cash, and I'm like, no,

900
00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:05,640
Speaker 2: I'm not setting a cap.

901
00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:06,799
Speaker 4: So she agreed, thank you.

902
00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:09,680
Speaker 3: Do you want me to share my now obsolete crap

903
00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:12,640
Speaker 3: system with you and then you can make you make

904
00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:13,400
Speaker 3: negative money.

905
00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:16,200
Speaker 2: One way to address the societal concerns would be to

906
00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:18,640
Speaker 2: ban sports betting, but it doesn't seem like that. It

907
00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:20,640
Speaker 2: seems like we're going full on in the other direction.

908
00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:27,439
Speaker 2: Are there regulatory moves that I guess could actually sort

909
00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:31,160
Speaker 2: of curb the addiction side and the devastation that can

910
00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:34,720
Speaker 2: cause to whatever percentage of betters do get hooked while

911
00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:37,680
Speaker 2: maintaining these viable businesses.

912
00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:40,400
Speaker 5: Sure, so when it comes to sort of the optimal

913
00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:42,520
Speaker 5: regulations or what we can do, I kind of think

914
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:45,480
Speaker 5: that there are three things that we can do. The

915
00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:49,040
Speaker 5: first is, you know, better regulations. When it comes to advertising.

916
00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:52,000
Speaker 5: As Tracy mentioned, it's not just the frequency of the ads,

917
00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:53,920
Speaker 5: but that they're really deceptive. You shouldn't be able to

918
00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:55,960
Speaker 5: run a sports betting ad where it's a guy with

919
00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:57,879
Speaker 5: a big check in hand and it's like join now

920
00:39:57,880 --> 00:39:59,520
Speaker 5: and you'll win big. And then there's you know a

921
00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:01,279
Speaker 5: little thing at the bottom of the screen which says

922
00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:03,480
Speaker 5: gamble responsibly. What the heck does that mean? There's a

923
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:05,520
Speaker 5: one eight hundred number, you know, it's twenty twenty four.

924
00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:08,040
Speaker 5: No one is calling those you know why instead of

925
00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:11,160
Speaker 5: gamble responsibly, isn't there you know, a mandatory message that

926
00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:13,399
Speaker 5: says nine to nine percent of people who gamble will

927
00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:15,520
Speaker 5: lose money and you know, maybe even if you win,

928
00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:17,239
Speaker 5: we're going to kick you out. So that that's the

929
00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:19,760
Speaker 5: first thing, just the deceptiveness of the ads. The second

930
00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:23,240
Speaker 5: thing is some things that should be done in app

931
00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:25,960
Speaker 5: to make them more transparent. So if you're on you

932
00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:27,799
Speaker 5: know a lot of these sports betting apps, it's very

933
00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:30,440
Speaker 5: difficult to figure out how much money you've won or lost.

934
00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:34,279
Speaker 5: And that's intentional. You know, it should be mandated that

935
00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:37,080
Speaker 5: when you go to the Maya account page on any sportsbook,

936
00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:39,080
Speaker 5: they show you how much money you've won or lost

937
00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:40,960
Speaker 5: in the last month or over the course of the

938
00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:44,359
Speaker 5: lifetime account. Fairly simple stuff. And then the last thing

939
00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:47,440
Speaker 5: I would say is we need we need more research.

940
00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:49,920
Speaker 5: Right I don't know all of the exact solutions. I

941
00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:52,719
Speaker 5: don't think anybody does, but we need good research and

942
00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:54,520
Speaker 5: a lot of the research out there right now, isn't

943
00:40:54,520 --> 00:40:57,680
Speaker 5: that good. It's funded by the industry, which has obvious problems,

944
00:40:58,120 --> 00:40:59,960
Speaker 5: But there are some simple things you can do. For example,

945
00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:02,880
Speaker 5: a lot of these sites like to use things like

946
00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:06,600
Speaker 5: responsible gambling tools like deposit or time limits where you say,

947
00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:08,279
Speaker 5: you know, if you had set a deposit limit of

948
00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:10,120
Speaker 5: one thousand dollars a month, once you reach that, you

949
00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:12,680
Speaker 5: can't deposit anymore. And all of these are opt in

950
00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:14,680
Speaker 5: and the reality is that we know that no one

951
00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:17,919
Speaker 5: uses these tools, why not try to have these things

952
00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:20,359
Speaker 5: be opt out instead of opt in like we do

953
00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:22,600
Speaker 5: for you know, organ donation when it comes to you know,

954
00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:25,240
Speaker 5: when you're getting your driver's license. That might increase adoption,

955
00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:28,080
Speaker 5: but the reality is, you know, you make make you know,

956
00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:30,560
Speaker 5: these sports betting companies team up with some researchers, have

957
00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:33,200
Speaker 5: it be government or impartial funding that's not funded by

958
00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:35,680
Speaker 5: the research to see what stuff actually can work, as

959
00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:38,000
Speaker 5: opposed to the industry giving a bunch of money and saying,

960
00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:39,600
Speaker 5: you know, here's what we think would happen. Because we

961
00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:40,480
Speaker 5: know that's not going to work.

962
00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:45,040
Speaker 2: Identifying flaws and actually having that alpha to identify mispricing

963
00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:46,440
Speaker 2: still seems like kind of a mystery to me.

964
00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:49,520
Speaker 5: Sure, yeah, so I'll give you one example, which is

965
00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:51,080
Speaker 5: from a buddy that I work with. He made a

966
00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:54,080
Speaker 5: lot of money off this, which was sportsbooks used to

967
00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:57,160
Speaker 5: offer and they still offer this bet on which basketball

968
00:41:57,200 --> 00:41:59,959
Speaker 5: team is going to score the first point. And in general,

969
00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:01,879
Speaker 5: the way that they would price this bet is it's,

970
00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:04,480
Speaker 5: you know, roughly a fifty to fifty and sometimes the

971
00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:06,560
Speaker 5: better team would be slightly favored. And because you know,

972
00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:08,319
Speaker 5: there's a tip off at the beginning, and whoever wins

973
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:10,640
Speaker 5: that it's roughly fifty percent and whoever you know gets

974
00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:12,120
Speaker 5: the ball first, that team is going to be more

975
00:42:12,120 --> 00:42:14,279
Speaker 5: likely to score. But what they didn't factor in, and

976
00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:16,240
Speaker 5: what my buddy and a bunch of other people realized,

977
00:42:16,520 --> 00:42:18,680
Speaker 5: is that it's not actually a fifty to fifty because

978
00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:21,000
Speaker 5: some teams have centers who are much taller than the

979
00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:23,879
Speaker 5: other team. So, for example, if you know, our two

980
00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:25,719
Speaker 5: teams are going up against each other, and my guy

981
00:42:25,719 --> 00:42:28,040
Speaker 5: who's jumping is seven foot two and your guy who's

982
00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:30,440
Speaker 5: jumping is six foot nine, my guy is going to

983
00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:33,160
Speaker 5: win the ball toss a lot more of the time,

984
00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:35,600
Speaker 5: and as a result, our team is going to start

985
00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:37,160
Speaker 5: with the ball a lot more, and that means that

986
00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:40,160
Speaker 5: they're going to score the first point much more often.

987
00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:42,040
Speaker 5: So that's kind of a simple example of how you

988
00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:44,840
Speaker 5: can identify an edge in a market. And the important

989
00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:47,120
Speaker 5: thing there is that that's a market that's derived from

990
00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:49,080
Speaker 5: a model. It's not a market which is where the

991
00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:51,719
Speaker 5: prices are derived through price discovery. So knowing how tall

992
00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:53,560
Speaker 5: a center is is not going to give you an

993
00:42:53,640 --> 00:42:55,200
Speaker 5: edge when betting on who's going to win a game,

994
00:42:55,360 --> 00:42:56,799
Speaker 5: but it might give you an edge when betting on

995
00:42:56,800 --> 00:42:58,040
Speaker 5: who's going to score the first point.

996
00:42:58,080 --> 00:43:00,239
Speaker 2: I'd have one last short question, actually re guized if

997
00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:03,440
Speaker 2: someone wants to be a professional sports better, what should

998
00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:06,359
Speaker 2: they know about themselves to say, Actually, I'm the type

999
00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:07,759
Speaker 2: of person that can live this life.

1000
00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:12,279
Speaker 5: The key is being able to handle variants. I think

1001
00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:14,719
Speaker 5: it's really easy to win, and everybody is, you know,

1002
00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:17,240
Speaker 5: everybody's really happy when you win. But it's really hard

1003
00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:20,960
Speaker 5: to lose, and especially if you're if you're gambling professionally

1004
00:43:21,080 --> 00:43:23,799
Speaker 5: or even if you're gambling recreationally, that's that's when it

1005
00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:25,600
Speaker 5: gets hard. Even if you're betting with an edge, you

1006
00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:28,319
Speaker 5: can still lose. You know, five ten bets in a row,

1007
00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:30,399
Speaker 5: you can lose a lot of money. And the real

1008
00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:33,080
Speaker 5: problems people have is when you start doubling down, you're

1009
00:43:33,120 --> 00:43:35,400
Speaker 5: chasing these losses, all of these problems, and so the

1010
00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:39,480
Speaker 5: emotional regulation involved, especially when you're losing, to try to

1011
00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:42,200
Speaker 5: you know, keep your cool and not and not go crazy.

1012
00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:46,120
Speaker 5: That's the most important thing, both for anybody who wants

1013
00:43:46,160 --> 00:43:48,760
Speaker 5: to try to do this professionally, which I probably wouldn't recommend,

1014
00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:51,239
Speaker 5: and anybody who even wants to do this for fun

1015
00:43:51,320 --> 00:43:53,960
Speaker 5: is just make sure that that you're able to control

1016
00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:55,440
Speaker 5: your emotions, especially when you're losing.

1017
00:43:55,640 --> 00:43:58,640
Speaker 3: Can you put a stop loss order on your gambling book.

1018
00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:00,920
Speaker 5: So you can pre program one you you can you

1019
00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:03,720
Speaker 5: can use these you know, deposit limits where you say, okay,

1020
00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:05,920
Speaker 5: I'm not going to do more than you know, a

1021
00:44:05,960 --> 00:44:07,560
Speaker 5: thousand dollars a month, and at that point you know

1022
00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:10,359
Speaker 5: they won't allow you to. In reality, they just don't

1023
00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:12,000
Speaker 5: really work and that no one uses them.

1024
00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:12,520
Speaker 3: Uh.

1025
00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:14,360
Speaker 5: And then you can always just go to another sportsbook

1026
00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:15,759
Speaker 5: where you haven't put that in and then and then

1027
00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:18,560
Speaker 5: go gamble there so you can. But the problem is

1028
00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:20,799
Speaker 5: when we put the entire onus on the user and

1029
00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:23,520
Speaker 5: we have this personal responsibility, it's just it's just not

1030
00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:26,040
Speaker 5: going to work. What we need is more active regulation

1031
00:44:26,120 --> 00:44:26,800
Speaker 5: of these companies.

1032
00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:30,120
Speaker 2: Isaac Roseberman, that was fantastic. Thank you so much for

1033
00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:31,040
Speaker 2: coming on Odd Loves.

1034
00:44:31,080 --> 00:44:32,400
Speaker 5: Thank you so much. It's been a pleasure.

1035
00:44:45,560 --> 00:44:47,160
Speaker 4: Tracy. I thought that was great.

1036
00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:51,640
Speaker 2: That demystified several things about this industry that I hadn't appreciated.

1037
00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:55,640
Speaker 3: Same again, like this is something I'm totally unfamiliar with,

1038
00:44:55,680 --> 00:44:58,400
Speaker 3: but I thought Isaac laid it out all really clearly.

1039
00:44:58,600 --> 00:45:01,560
Speaker 3: Is it bad that I've come away wanting to make

1040
00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:02,319
Speaker 3: sports that.

1041
00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:06,080
Speaker 2: Our listeners stick away from that? I guess if you

1042
00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:08,680
Speaker 2: want to make a few sports, I trust you to

1043
00:45:08,719 --> 00:45:09,359
Speaker 2: handle your.

1044
00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:12,520
Speaker 3: The world's most complicated single game park.

1045
00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:14,080
Speaker 2: You know it would be fun. Now, Actually I want

1046
00:45:14,120 --> 00:45:17,400
Speaker 2: to do it. We should, you know, we should do Actually,

1047
00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:19,840
Speaker 2: this should be fun. We should both open up accounts

1048
00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:22,719
Speaker 2: and you like bet on the yank or you like

1049
00:45:23,520 --> 00:45:27,440
Speaker 2: bet on like you know, Austrian rules football or some

1050
00:45:27,520 --> 00:45:28,279
Speaker 2: other sports.

1051
00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:30,920
Speaker 4: That I've never heard, and I'll bet on the Yankees.

1052
00:45:31,040 --> 00:45:32,759
Speaker 2: Let's do this, this is an experiment, and I'll just

1053
00:45:32,760 --> 00:45:34,919
Speaker 2: like bet on the Yankees and the Mets, and let's

1054
00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:37,359
Speaker 2: just watch what happens to our position limits over time.

1055
00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:40,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, Actually, I think that'd be fun. We start with

1056
00:45:40,120 --> 00:45:41,840
Speaker 3: like the same amount of money and then take it

1057
00:45:41,840 --> 00:45:43,360
Speaker 3: from there. All right, I would do that.

1058
00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:44,239
Speaker 4: All right, let's do that.

1059
00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:45,840
Speaker 3: I mean, I have to say, when it comes to

1060
00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:49,640
Speaker 3: soccer football, I've kind of I've given up on the

1061
00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:53,400
Speaker 3: purity of the sport as as a long time football

1062
00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:56,600
Speaker 3: fan who's watched FIFA for a long time, I like,

1063
00:45:57,040 --> 00:45:58,840
Speaker 3: it just doesn't matter to me anymore. So yeah, I

1064
00:45:58,920 --> 00:46:00,040
Speaker 3: might as well make some money.

1065
00:46:00,200 --> 00:46:04,720
Speaker 2: That I also thought, you know, even though Isaac didn't

1066
00:46:04,760 --> 00:46:09,959
Speaker 2: identify it as like the key issue here, the very

1067
00:46:10,120 --> 00:46:13,320
Speaker 2: the betting constraints and the fact that basically if you're good,

1068
00:46:13,480 --> 00:46:15,360
Speaker 2: you're not allowed to bet very much, and the idea

1069
00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:18,880
Speaker 2: that if you're good like that strikes me it's very unfair,

1070
00:46:19,200 --> 00:46:21,520
Speaker 2: and that seems like kind of obvious. But again, you know,

1071
00:46:21,640 --> 00:46:23,640
Speaker 2: thinking about because people look at them, you know, and

1072
00:46:23,920 --> 00:46:27,240
Speaker 2: when people get anxious and for other brows about sports betting,

1073
00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:29,040
Speaker 2: they're like, well, why don't you get the you know,

1074
00:46:29,360 --> 00:46:32,319
Speaker 2: you don't. You know, financial markets are casino too, and

1075
00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:36,000
Speaker 2: that's kind of true. But if you're good at financial markets,

1076
00:46:36,200 --> 00:46:37,680
Speaker 2: or if you're good at trading, if you're good at

1077
00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:40,120
Speaker 2: investing or stock selection, they're not going to like cut

1078
00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:41,919
Speaker 2: you off for de facto cut you off by telling

1079
00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:44,360
Speaker 2: you can only like invest a dollar in a stock totally.

1080
00:46:44,440 --> 00:46:47,160
Speaker 3: It's very it feels very animal farm to me. It's

1081
00:46:47,239 --> 00:46:49,600
Speaker 3: like everyone is allowed to make money, but everyone is

1082
00:46:49,600 --> 00:46:52,200
Speaker 3: also allowed to be prevented from making money.

1083
00:46:52,280 --> 00:46:54,520
Speaker 2: The other thing we'll do after you and I do

1084
00:46:54,600 --> 00:46:56,560
Speaker 2: our experiment. Now, I won't do this, but it would

1085
00:46:56,600 --> 00:46:58,400
Speaker 2: be fun to see who would buy one of our

1086
00:46:58,520 --> 00:47:01,480
Speaker 2: I won't do that because that is violation, but you know,

1087
00:47:01,520 --> 00:47:04,440
Speaker 2: I'd be curious what the market rate for my account

1088
00:47:04,440 --> 00:47:06,399
Speaker 2: where I lost a lot of our naivete.

1089
00:47:06,520 --> 00:47:08,839
Speaker 3: We can put a price on our lack of expertise.

1090
00:47:09,320 --> 00:47:11,919
Speaker 3: The other thing that was really interesting and I would

1091
00:47:11,960 --> 00:47:13,920
Speaker 3: love to dig into this sport, but the sort of

1092
00:47:14,040 --> 00:47:19,160
Speaker 3: third party pricing some of the more exotic plays. I

1093
00:47:19,160 --> 00:47:21,520
Speaker 3: would love to know, like who those companies actually are

1094
00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:24,360
Speaker 3: and how they come up with those numbers. Some of

1095
00:47:24,360 --> 00:47:29,160
Speaker 3: it just to return to traditional finance and market Some

1096
00:47:29,239 --> 00:47:32,280
Speaker 3: of it reminds me of like the third party pricing

1097
00:47:32,360 --> 00:47:36,120
Speaker 3: providers and credit yeah exactly. And they use like matrix

1098
00:47:36,160 --> 00:47:39,600
Speaker 3: modeling where they're sort of triangulating the market price for

1099
00:47:39,680 --> 00:47:41,439
Speaker 3: something that doesn't actually trade that much.

1100
00:47:41,600 --> 00:47:44,080
Speaker 4: Now, there's so much good stuff here. I like, you know.

1101
00:47:44,320 --> 00:47:46,719
Speaker 2: One of the things that's fun about these types of

1102
00:47:46,719 --> 00:47:49,399
Speaker 2: episodes that we explore a new market is we learn

1103
00:47:50,080 --> 00:47:53,800
Speaker 2: things about traditional markets that we didn't necessarily see before,

1104
00:47:53,880 --> 00:47:56,719
Speaker 2: but by looking at them in another context, suddenly things

1105
00:47:56,760 --> 00:47:59,160
Speaker 2: were more familiar with become like legible in a new way.

1106
00:47:59,200 --> 00:48:00,759
Speaker 3: Absolutely, shall we leave it there?

1107
00:48:00,840 --> 00:48:01,480
Speaker 4: Let's leave it there.

1108
00:48:01,640 --> 00:48:04,719
Speaker 3: This has been another episode of the Authoughts podcast. I'm

1109
00:48:04,719 --> 00:48:07,840
Speaker 3: Tracy Alloway. You can follow me at Tracy Alloway.

1110
00:48:07,480 --> 00:48:10,400
Speaker 2: And I'm Joe Wisenthal. You can follow me at the Stalwart.

1111
00:48:10,440 --> 00:48:13,560
Speaker 2: Follow our guest Isaac rose Berman He's at Round Robin

1112
00:48:13,680 --> 00:48:17,239
Speaker 2: forty two. Follow our producers Kerman Rodriguez at Kerman Arman,

1113
00:48:17,640 --> 00:48:21,319
Speaker 2: Dashel Bennett at Dashbot, and Kelbrooks at Kilbrooks. Thank you

1114
00:48:21,360 --> 00:48:24,239
Speaker 2: to our producer Moses Ondem. More odd Laws content go

1115
00:48:24,280 --> 00:48:27,160
Speaker 2: to bloomberg dot com slash od Loots. We have transcripts

1116
00:48:27,160 --> 00:48:29,680
Speaker 2: of all our episodes. A blog and a newsletter comes

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Speaker 2: out every Friday. Go sign up for it and you

1118
00:48:31,960 --> 00:48:34,279
Speaker 2: can chaut about all of these topics. Twenty four to

1119
00:48:34,320 --> 00:48:39,400
Speaker 2: seven with fellow listeners of the podcast. In our discord, Discord, GG, slash,

1120
00:48:39,440 --> 00:48:40,560
Speaker 2: Odlots and.

1121
00:48:40,600 --> 00:48:42,440
Speaker 3: If you enjoy All Bots, if you like it when

1122
00:48:42,480 --> 00:48:45,640
Speaker 3: we do deep dives into new markets like sports gambling,

1123
00:48:45,680 --> 00:48:48,480
Speaker 3: then please leave us a positive review on your favorite

1124
00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:52,279
Speaker 3: podcast platform. And remember, if you are a Bloomberg subscriber,

1125
00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:55,560
Speaker 3: you can listen to all of our episodes absolutely ad free.

1126
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Speaker 3: with Apple Podcasts. In order to do that, just go

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Speaker 3: to the Bloomberg channel on Apple Podcasts and it'll give

1129
00:49:04,960 --> 00:49:06,880
Speaker 3: you instructions. Thanks for listening.

1130
00:50:13,400 --> 00:50:16,040
Speaker 2: Welcome to the Odd Lots podcast on Bloomberg Radio.

1131
00:50:16,080 --> 00:50:18,320
Speaker 3: I'm Joe Wisenthal and I'm Tracy Alloway.

1132
00:50:18,320 --> 00:50:21,160
Speaker 2: Today you are listening to our conversation with professional Sports

1133
00:50:21,160 --> 00:50:24,680
Speaker 2: Better and writer Isaac rose Berman about how is sports

1134
00:50:24,680 --> 00:50:26,360
Speaker 2: Better actually makes money.

1135
00:50:27,280 --> 00:50:30,280
Speaker 3: Stay tuned for more of our interview with Isaac rose Berman.

1136
00:50:30,360 --> 00:50:32,719
Speaker 3: He is a professional Sports Better and we are talking

1137
00:50:32,719 --> 00:50:36,200
Speaker 3: about the explosion in gambling in the US. To hear

1138
00:50:36,200 --> 00:50:39,160
Speaker 3: the full conversation, subscribe to All Thoughts wherever you get

1139
00:50:39,160 --> 00:50:41,399
Speaker 3: your podcasts. I'm Tracy Alloway and.

1140
00:50:41,360 --> 00:50:44,040
Speaker 2: I'm Joe Wisenthal, and this is Odd Lots on Bloomberg Radio.

1141
00:50:44,760 --> 00:50:46,480
Speaker 2: This is Odd Lots on Bloomberg Radio.

1142
00:50:46,560 --> 00:50:48,720
Speaker 3: I'm Joe Wisenthal and I'm Tracy Alloway.

1143
00:50:48,800 --> 00:50:53,160
Speaker 2: Today's episode is looking at the business of Today's episode

1144
00:50:53,160 --> 00:50:55,560
Speaker 2: is looking at the business of sports gambling. How do

1145
00:50:55,640 --> 00:50:58,680
Speaker 2: the gamblers make and lose money? How do the casinos

1146
00:50:58,760 --> 00:51:01,840
Speaker 2: make and lose money? Our guest Isaac rose Berman, a

1147
00:51:01,840 --> 00:51:03,520
Speaker 2: professional sports better and writer.

1148
00:51:04,480 --> 00:51:07,960
Speaker 3: More to come from our conversation with professional sports better

1149
00:51:08,040 --> 00:51:11,520
Speaker 3: and writer Isaac rose Berman. We are talking all things

1150
00:51:11,560 --> 00:51:12,280
Speaker 3: sports betting.

1151
00:51:12,520 --> 00:51:15,200
Speaker 2: I'm Tracy Alloway, I'm Joe Wisenthal, and this is Odd

1152
00:51:15,200 --> 00:51:16,319
Speaker 2: Lots on Bloomberg Radio.

1153
00:51:16,560 --> 00:51:18,640
Speaker 3: To hear all of our episodes in full, be sure

1154
00:51:18,680 --> 00:51:21,280
Speaker 3: to subscribe to the podcast on your favorite platform.

1155
00:51:21,680 --> 00:51:24,560
Speaker 2: You're listening to the Odd Lots podcast on Bloomberg Radio.

1156
00:51:24,640 --> 00:51:26,920
Speaker 3: I'm Joe Wisenthal and I'm Tracy Alloway.

1157
00:51:27,000 --> 00:51:30,800
Speaker 2: On today's show, we are discussing the explosion of sports betting.

1158
00:51:30,920 --> 00:51:34,000
Speaker 2: Our guest is Isaac rose Berman, a professional sports better

1159
00:51:34,080 --> 00:51:36,440
Speaker 2: and a writer at how Gambling Works dot Com.

1160
00:51:36,920 --> 00:51:40,240
Speaker 3: This has been all Thoughts on Bloomberg Radio. I'm Tracy Alloway.

1161
00:51:39,880 --> 00:51:41,000
Speaker 4: And I'm Joe Wisenthal.

1162
00:51:41,160 --> 00:51:43,080
Speaker 3: To hear the rest of this episode and all of

1163
00:51:43,120 --> 00:51:45,960
Speaker 3: our other interviews. Be sure to subscribe to Odd Lots

1164
00:51:46,000 --> 00:51:50,160
Speaker 3: wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for listening, all.

1165
00:51:50,120 --> 00:51:53,880
Speaker 4: Right, we good? Thanks great, Well that was a lot

1166
00:51:53,880 --> 00:51:54,240
Speaker 4: of fun.

1167
00:51:54,400 --> 00:51:54,719
Speaker 2: Thank you.

1168
00:51:55,000 --> 00:51:56,000
Speaker 4: Was so good.