Speaker 1: On Theme is a production of iHeartRadio and fair Weather
Speaker 1: Friends Media.
Speaker 2: I'm Katie and I'm Eves. Today on the podcast, we
Speaker 2: go toward the Danger.
Speaker 1: Okay, Katie, So I have a little pop quiz for you.
Speaker 1: Are you ready for it?
Speaker 2: Yes?
Speaker 1: So it's only one question, So it's a pretty short
Speaker 1: pop quiz. If you were an archetypal character in a
Speaker 1: horror movie, which one do you think that you would be?
Speaker 2: Absolutely? No question. I'm the black person against killed first.
Speaker 1: And you know what, I was fully expecting you to
Speaker 1: say that, because I feel like in conversations that we've
Speaker 1: had about danger before, you have said that you would
Speaker 1: die quickly. And I've tried to get you out of
Speaker 1: saying that because I want.
Speaker 2: That to be ad. Yeah, I would be Not only
Speaker 2: would I die first, I would like actively try to
Speaker 2: die first.
Speaker 1: Well, I love horror, and I don't think that I
Speaker 1: would be the person who would die first, at least
Speaker 1: not hopefully.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you would survive. You think I would survive? Yeah,
Speaker 2: that's you.
Speaker 1: I'm glad you think that highly of me. Anyway, there
Speaker 1: is this running joke that black folks would act way
Speaker 1: differently than white people do in horror movies that a
Speaker 1: black person would like never pull out a flashlight or
Speaker 1: go into a pitch black cave looking for answers, like,
Speaker 1: there is no way in the world we would go
Speaker 1: looking for smoke with anyone who had just gone on
Speaker 1: a killing spree or something similar.
Speaker 2: There's this perception that black folks aren't going to do
Speaker 2: anything that puts us in more danger, Like why would
Speaker 2: we choose to do that when we could choose to
Speaker 2: survive or at least do what's ever in our power
Speaker 2: to escape exactly.
Speaker 1: And it's such a known joke that black folks be
Speaker 1: screaming at the screen saying that we would never do something.
Speaker 2: And I mean, the joke makes sense because generally people
Speaker 2: be doing some wild stuff in horror movies, making the
Speaker 2: wrong decision at literally every turn.
Speaker 1: And you know we do that in real life too,
Speaker 1: So obviously there's room for that, and that makes sense
Speaker 1: to depict it that way. That's necessary also to build
Speaker 1: tension and for entertainment value, so we can actually enjoy
Speaker 1: things as we're watching them, even if they're horror. But
Speaker 1: there is a lot more at play when you throw
Speaker 1: race into the equation. There is not an overwhelming amount
Speaker 1: of research on it, but there have been studies on
Speaker 1: links between race and risk aversion or tolerance as it
Speaker 1: relates to different fields like healthcare, for instance. So we
Speaker 1: may tend to be more risk averse in certain situations.
Speaker 1: But on the other hand, black people can be perceived
Speaker 1: to be more reckless in their risk taking, and that
Speaker 1: was the case in a twenty twenty one study out
Speaker 1: of Northwestern University. In it, the authors found that the
Speaker 1: mostly white participants imagined reckless risk takers as black by
Speaker 1: appearance and by stereotypical traits, and they recognize responsible risk
Speaker 1: takers as white.
Speaker 3: So while some of us Black folks.
Speaker 1: May swear that we are experts, experts and knowing how
Speaker 1: to slide out of tricky situations, racism would have some
Speaker 1: belief that we take all of the unnecessary risks.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's interesting that these, you know, studies contradict
Speaker 2: the way we're seen in some instances, but affirms the
Speaker 2: way we're seeing to some people, because you know, black
Speaker 2: people love to say what black people love to say.
Speaker 2: Black people aren't a monolith. It's true though, It's so true.
Speaker 2: So like, of course, there are going to be some
Speaker 2: reckless folks, and there are going to be some very
Speaker 2: you know, timid folks who aren't going to take any risk.
Speaker 2: You know, we all have different lives. Our risk assessments
Speaker 2: depend on what we've been through, you know, lived experience,
Speaker 2: how we handle things, and the conditions of our environment.
Speaker 2: There are a million and one reasons we may assume
Speaker 2: that we don't want to confront danger. We face enough
Speaker 2: terror in everyday live child, and we know that we
Speaker 2: are more likely to be harm in certain circumstances. What
Speaker 2: may happen to me doing something risky than a white woman,
Speaker 2: same age, same everything else could be totally different And
Speaker 2: guess who's gonna get blamed for it? My black ass.
Speaker 1: So when black people joke about leaving a dangerous situation
Speaker 1: with no hesitation, it can be funny, and it can
Speaker 1: be true, and it's a legitimate observation and deduction that
Speaker 1: we would be more risk averse, especially in life or
Speaker 1: death situations.
Speaker 2: But see, I felt a butt coming.
Speaker 3: But at the.
Speaker 1: Risk of being that sad, sad soul who takes a
Speaker 1: joke far too seriously. I want to make the case
Speaker 1: for why this joke about black people running away from
Speaker 1: the danger always being too prepared and too ready to
Speaker 1: leave a situation or not even enter it for why
Speaker 1: that joke could be revised or maybe even could be
Speaker 1: put to rest.
Speaker 2: Okay, you know I'm ready to hear this case. I'll
Speaker 2: be the judge, Judy, excuse me, the judge, Joe Brown,
Speaker 2: the judge maybe Lean period. But there there are a
Speaker 2: lot of reasons that the joke is a vouid thing
Speaker 2: to say, though. You know, I know that this joke
Speaker 2: has become a thing because of the actions that people
Speaker 2: take and a lot of horror doesn't resonate with some
Speaker 2: of us. Otherwise we wouldn't be saying the joke. But
Speaker 2: you know, our fears can be different, and the way
Speaker 2: we respond to them and write about that can be
Speaker 2: different from a lot of those tropes we see written
Speaker 2: by non black creators.
Speaker 1: Yeah, black folks have a shared sense of what we
Speaker 1: would and what we wouldn't do in these dire situations
Speaker 1: that is based on personal experience and observation and standards
Speaker 1: of safety, et cetera, et cetera. I know that we
Speaker 1: know as entertainment as well, the drama is there on
Speaker 1: purpose and the point is not always representing real life
Speaker 1: as accurately as possible. So I had to sit there
Speaker 1: and ask myself, why is this joke bothering me so bad?
Speaker 2: Like, girl, the.
Speaker 1: Joke is based on facts, and obviously it's made in
Speaker 1: good fun. Why am I taking something that is so
Speaker 1: understandable so personally? And I have a theory, but you'll
Speaker 1: have to hear it after the break got me.
Speaker 2: So we want to know, why should this joke about
Speaker 2: black people always avoiding danger in horror movies go the
Speaker 2: way of extra taties.
Speaker 1: I'm going to start with the low hanging fruit.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 1: So I know that this is personal, but it just
Speaker 1: didn't feel like it applied to me. I know it's
Speaker 1: a joke, and I know it's a generalization. So I
Speaker 1: had this kind of strong reaction to it, like I
Speaker 1: want to believe that I'm going to protect my home
Speaker 1: and my people and that I'm not going to give
Speaker 1: up that easily, and the fact that it's just a
Speaker 1: default joke was really getting me in my feels a
Speaker 1: lot more about it.
Speaker 2: Okay, So here's my thing though. So you're in the
Speaker 2: apocalypse right the world and then there's no modern comforts,
Speaker 2: like y'all really just out here and you fight, you fight,
Speaker 2: and defend your home, defend your people. Okay, say you win.
Speaker 2: Now what, I don't want to live in this world.
Speaker 2: I don't like this, you know what I'm saying. Yeah,
Speaker 2: that would be like, what are these people fighting so
Speaker 2: hard for? Like life as you know it is done?
Speaker 1: Yeah, But I guess the thing is there are some
Speaker 1: people who still care to live even within that new paradigm.
Speaker 1: Versus there are people who are just like I don't
Speaker 1: even want to experience it.
Speaker 2: I'm cool with what I know.
Speaker 1: So I guess that also depends on your tolerance for
Speaker 1: a change and a change that is unpredictable to you.
Speaker 1: It's a spectrum of experiences and thoughts on that for
Speaker 1: different people.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm on the low end of that spect.
Speaker 1: So point number two. In so many of the works
Speaker 1: that we create, we involve ourselves in business that we
Speaker 1: shouldn't be involved in. We do things like we follow
Speaker 1: the noise, we open the door, we investigate things, we
Speaker 1: try to see what's going on. We might be a
Speaker 1: little bit nervous, a little bit fearful, but we might
Speaker 1: still do the thing we do all of the things
Speaker 1: that put us in the path of danger. So take
Speaker 1: for example, Jordan Peels Us, in which the father warns
Speaker 1: the Doppelganger family that they don't want any smoke with them.
Speaker 3: So if y'all want to get crazy, we can get crazy.
Speaker 1: Of course, getting into trouble is a function of storytelling.
Speaker 1: People have to be involved in things, they have to
Speaker 1: take action, get wrapped up in some sort of problem.
Speaker 1: But saying that black people wouldn't look into a creepy
Speaker 1: sound to see what's up, or run right into the
Speaker 1: stalker because they took a wrong turn, that's just not
Speaker 1: fair to the black creators who make works with us
Speaker 1: falling for these kinds of traps and doing the things
Speaker 1: that just simply make us human.
Speaker 2: That's very true. And you know, I think we all
Speaker 2: like to think that we're like smarter than the people
Speaker 2: that we see making these choices. You know what the
Speaker 2: thing is, the characters in horror movies do not know
Speaker 2: they are in horror movies. And there's this really good
Speaker 2: zz Packer quote that was in her collection of short
Speaker 2: stories called Drinking Coffee Elsewhere. She says, when she'd watched
Speaker 2: horror movies, it seemed easy enough to know when the
Speaker 2: victims should leave, run hide. They're always shrieking violins and
Speaker 2: threatening sawing cellos to alert you to danger, but here
Speaker 2: there were none. And I really think about that because
Speaker 2: I've definitely been in situations that if there was an
Speaker 2: audience watching me, they'd be screaming at me to not
Speaker 2: do the thing that I inevitably do because I just
Speaker 2: don't know any better. I don't have perfect information. I'm
Speaker 2: not watching from the comforts of my living room as
Speaker 2: I make these bad decisions or make the wrong turn,
Speaker 2: and so without that perfect information, people and characters in
Speaker 2: movies behave imperfectly. And it's easy to say that if
Speaker 2: it were you in that situation, you would do different,
Speaker 2: but come on, be for real, Like if you look
Speaker 2: at your life as a movie, there's definitely some horror
Speaker 2: horror movie decisions you.
Speaker 1: Made, plenty of them, plenty of horror movie decisions. And
Speaker 1: there's also this sorry history of portrayals in white created
Speaker 1: media of black folks being these scared, meek or subservient negroes.
Speaker 1: And I don't think it does us any favors to
Speaker 1: pile onto the idea that we aren't capable of facing
Speaker 1: our fears.
Speaker 2: And this point leads.
Speaker 1: Me to number three, which is that we have a solid,
Speaker 1: non fictional history of choosing the path of most resistance
Speaker 1: when necessary. I think this one is the reason why
Speaker 1: my knee jerk reaction to the joke is so dramatic.
Speaker 1: It just makes me feel like we believe we are cowardly.
Speaker 1: Of course, our fears aren't all the same, so I
Speaker 1: don't like the idea of confining black folks to a
Speaker 1: single experience of fear response and risk tolerance. It makes
Speaker 1: it seem like we always end up choosing safety and
Speaker 1: comfort over courage and defense of a just cause, and
Speaker 1: the optics of that just makes me feel really icky.
Speaker 1: The history of black folks on this earth is exactly
Speaker 1: the opposite of that, So we stay putting ourselves at
Speaker 1: risk to fight for and to protect our own in others. So,
Speaker 1: without even getting into value judgments on that, I am
Speaker 1: uncomfortable with perpetuating this idea that we are always too
Speaker 1: spooked to face a thing that scares ay.
Speaker 2: When you think about it, sometimes the horror movies we see,
Speaker 2: it's kind of like this one group of friends are
Speaker 2: in a cabin in the woods and there's this one
Speaker 2: killer on the loose, right, But I mean having dogs
Speaker 2: sticked on you as you walk asking for your right
Speaker 2: to vote. That's horror, that's you know, that's like some
Speaker 2: scary shit. And people did it, you know, day in
Speaker 2: and day out, knowing that that danger was not even
Speaker 2: just possible, but probable, you know what I'm saying. It
Speaker 2: wasn't like, oh, they were shocked that these dogs came out,
Speaker 2: maybe the first time, but you know, after a while,
Speaker 2: you're like, you know, the dogs are coming out, you
Speaker 2: know the fire holes are coming out. You know you're
Speaker 2: gonna get beat with the baton, and yet those people
Speaker 2: still face that danger. So you know what, now I'm
Speaker 2: thinking that this trope is around so black people don't
Speaker 2: rise up in revolution. Think about it, like Harriet Tubman,
Speaker 2: you got the dogs on your tail. You know that
Speaker 2: if you get caught, you are going to get beaten,
Speaker 2: probably die. You're using the stars in the moon to
Speaker 2: find your way, and you aren't just doing it for yourself,
Speaker 2: but you're doing it for all these other you know,
Speaker 2: enslaved people who are running to Like that's a horror movie.
Speaker 1: There is so much about the real world where we
Speaker 1: do the thing that is the hardest thing to do.
Speaker 1: We do the thing that's the scariest thing. To do,
Speaker 1: and you know, these situations in which we're having dogs
Speaker 1: sticked on us, in which we're in darkness and having
Speaker 1: to try to find our ways to places we know,
Speaker 1: we are running from situations that meant death and torture
Speaker 1: for us and running into situations that are unknown, which
Speaker 1: is another fear in itself, is like, you know, just
Speaker 1: because we were leaving one place that was full of
Speaker 1: danger and we were going toward another, doesn't mean that
Speaker 1: it was going to be a one hundred percent safe
Speaker 1: place for us, and it likely wasn't going to be
Speaker 1: because we live in a world where so many different
Speaker 1: places are dangerous to black people, and it is just
Speaker 1: so much more realistic to think about how we do
Speaker 1: so frequently choose these paths that involve danger out of necessity,
Speaker 1: out of courage and out of a willingness to survive,
Speaker 1: and out of optimism and hope, because I do think
Speaker 1: that it takes a certain amount of optimism and hope
Speaker 1: to be able to think that you're going to overcome
Speaker 1: a situation that you know is already dangerous and that
Speaker 1: you will be a person who's integral into changing that
Speaker 1: situation into one that has a positive outcome.
Speaker 2: All right, let's go to this ad break, but don't
Speaker 2: go too far. We will be waiting for you on
Speaker 2: the other side. Okay, we're back, and we didn't scare
Speaker 2: them enough to keep them away, so clearly that people
Speaker 2: want to hear the rest of this list what you
Speaker 2: got next?
Speaker 1: So number four, this one is kind of a counterpoint
Speaker 1: to the last point. That assumption that we avoid fear
Speaker 1: like the plague can imply that we're cowardly, but on
Speaker 1: the opposite end of the spectrum, it can also play
Speaker 1: into the idea that we are above making mistakes. But
Speaker 1: are we smarter than getting ourselves caught up? Do we
Speaker 1: know better than to go risking our lives when we
Speaker 1: can just walk away and we know damn well that
Speaker 1: our parents raised us better than that. Saying that we
Speaker 1: would never make an unwise or a logical decision that
Speaker 1: puts us in danger, it really takes away from our
Speaker 1: ability to be fallible. We are not superhuman. We don't
Speaker 1: always make the correct choices. We mess up a lot.
Speaker 1: We are flawed, and I want stories about us to
Speaker 1: really reflect that. I don't want to pretend that we're perfect.
Speaker 2: There's this Maya Angelou quote about like pretending that we're
Speaker 2: perfect and we never mess up. So in a nineteen
Speaker 2: ninety five article, she talked about her past, and in
Speaker 2: this interview, she said, I wrote about my experiences because
Speaker 2: I thought too many people tell young folks I never
Speaker 2: did anything wrong. Who why never? I I have no
Speaker 2: skeletons in my closet. In fact, I have no closet.
Speaker 2: They lie like that, and then young people find themselves
Speaker 2: in situations and they think, damn, I must be a
Speaker 2: pretty bad guy. You know, my mom and dad never
Speaker 2: did anything wrong, so I'm pretty bad and they can't
Speaker 2: forgive themselves. And I felt that like, if everyone's hiding
Speaker 2: everything that they've ever done that they're not the proudest of,
Speaker 2: then there's nothing to learn from from younger generations coming
Speaker 2: up behind you, whether it's your direct lineage or justlike
Speaker 2: people who who know your story right, they're like getting
Speaker 2: half of the story. So I think, like with tying
Speaker 2: that back to horror movies, like, yeah, these people are
Speaker 2: making like to us, obviously wrong decisions, but maybe they're
Speaker 2: kind of like, hey, this is what I did and
Speaker 2: this is what happened from it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think we have a lot to learn from
Speaker 1: seeing black people do things wrong in horror movies for
Speaker 1: the reasons that you just said. It's actually very edifying
Speaker 1: to see people mess up, and to see people like
Speaker 1: us mess up in ways, especially in where we control
Speaker 1: those narratives. It's hard to make good decisions because how
Speaker 1: can you even determine what is a good decision or
Speaker 1: not before crystal ball?
Speaker 2: And that's it.
Speaker 3: You gotta be magic.
Speaker 2: So we reach your fifth and final point, bring it
Speaker 2: all home.
Speaker 1: This one. I just want it to be pretty simple,
Speaker 1: and that's that fear does not save us. That sounds
Speaker 1: so serious, but it feels like the idea that our
Speaker 1: fear will keep us out of danger is the message
Speaker 1: that's kind of hovering in the background of this joke.
Speaker 1: But the reality is running away from a threat or
Speaker 1: avoiding a single threat does not guarantee our safety or
Speaker 1: our survival. So avoiding confrontation can absolutely be healthy, but
Speaker 1: choosing not to engage is not always the only good option.
Speaker 1: So look, what I Am always going to do is
Speaker 1: hold us to a high standard. I'm a firm believer
Speaker 1: in the power of words, so I just want us
Speaker 1: to think about the things that we say. There is
Speaker 1: nothing more to that, Nothing less. I know it's not
Speaker 1: that deep. I know there is a big culture of
Speaker 1: making things deeper than they need to be, although I
Speaker 1: don't always think that's necessarily a bad thing. I think
Speaker 1: it's kind of beautiful that we are so analytical, that
Speaker 1: we have so much access to information, and that we're
Speaker 1: able to share our thoughts and think critically around things
Speaker 1: in ways that can be super impactful and super meaningful.
Speaker 1: So I acknowledge that it's not that deep. My point
Speaker 1: is that it's all in the spirit of love. I
Speaker 1: just want to make room for curiosity and care. That's it,
Speaker 1: that's real. And this is where doctor Robin R. Means
Speaker 1: Coleman comes in.
Speaker 3: So my name is Robin, middle initial R, last name
Speaker 3: is means Coleman.
Speaker 1: Unlike me, she's a certified expert on the topic of
Speaker 1: black people and horror.
Speaker 3: I am a professor at Northwestern University. One of my
Speaker 3: claim to fames is that I'm the co author of
Speaker 3: The Black Eyed Dies First and also the author of
Speaker 3: Horror Noir, which was also turned into a documentary. And
Speaker 3: perhaps the other thing that people know about me is
Speaker 3: that I am not afraid to say Candyman five times in.
Speaker 1: A mirror well, you are better than me because I
Speaker 1: have held onto that I don't do the candyman thing.
Speaker 1: I don't do the bloody Mary thing. None of that
Speaker 1: is within my wheelhouse. And I consider myself a person
Speaker 1: who's pretty tolerant to horror, and I draw my limits somewhere.
Speaker 1: So I guess all of that means that you're also
Speaker 1: a horror fan yourself, right.
Speaker 3: I am to write the books that I've written or
Speaker 3: co authored with my fabulous co author Mark Harris, required
Speaker 3: us to watch not just hundreds, but thousands of horror films,
Speaker 3: and that's been a terrific crazy ride.
Speaker 1: See a consummate professional, a woman dedicated to the enjoyment
Speaker 1: and study of the craft. Okay, anyway, Katie, The thing is,
Speaker 1: I wanted to talk to doctor Means Coleman because all
Speaker 1: of this has been about me trying to figure out
Speaker 1: why I had the emotional response I did. Even after
Speaker 1: digging pretty deep into why the joke rubbed me the
Speaker 1: wrong way, all of these conflicting thoughts were having one
Speaker 1: big ass boss battle in my brain. I still couldn't
Speaker 1: reconcile all of the capital t truths buried in the jest.
Speaker 1: Like sure, I feel this way about it. But it's
Speaker 1: a well known joke for a reason.
Speaker 2: I think doctor Means Coleman is the perfect person to
Speaker 2: have this conversation with. So I'm excited to see what
Speaker 2: she has to say, and I hope y'all can get
Speaker 2: down to the capital t truths of the matter.
Speaker 1: Okay, back to our conversation. So it really stood out
Speaker 1: to me when I read the first edition of your book,
Speaker 1: Hohor and war So in the beginning, there's this forward
Speaker 1: by Steven Toreano Barry, and he talks about in that forward,
Speaker 1: how there's this joke that goes around that has been
Speaker 1: around for quite a while now that if somebody tells
Speaker 1: black people to leave.
Speaker 2: We're going to leave.
Speaker 1: In a horror movie, somebody says get out, We're going
Speaker 1: to get out.
Speaker 3: We won't be in the movie.
Speaker 1: You won't see us. The movie wouldn't even exist if
Speaker 1: it were based around us, you know, investigating the problem,
Speaker 1: and he says in that forward he uses the phrase
Speaker 1: that that joke was quote an off handed justification to
Speaker 1: help explain that absence of black people in horror in
Speaker 1: the time before the nineteen seventies. It is such a
Speaker 1: well known sentiment it's so prevalent that it that it
Speaker 1: starts this whole journey through your book. So that says
Speaker 1: something alone. So before we even begin getting into that context,
Speaker 1: could you tell me about the first time that you
Speaker 1: remember hearing that joke.
Speaker 3: I love this question, and I would say that it's
Speaker 3: a trope in popular culture, and where I think we
Speaker 3: have a shared experience is that it isn't just that
Speaker 3: we were introduced to that in popular culture, but sort
Speaker 3: of real life black lived experience. They're that joke, that
Speaker 3: trope that we now it's sort of gallows humor or
Speaker 3: represent and I guess we'll talk about the ways it's
Speaker 3: represented in movies, but that often what we see in
Speaker 3: media comes out of real life experience, and that is
Speaker 3: a necessary mode of survival for black people. You'll see
Speaker 3: people sort of joke about it on the comedy stage,
Speaker 3: but that's real. So on the comedy stage, outside of
Speaker 3: the genre of horror, you'll see comedians say that, you know,
Speaker 3: black people will be gathered somewhere in an auditorium or
Speaker 3: at a party and somebody will are running, and that
Speaker 3: black people are like, wait, wait are we running? Are running?
Speaker 3: Everybody's running, everybody's got everybody runs right, no question. So
Speaker 3: that comes out of a real moment of a necessity
Speaker 3: around survival. Running to drama or trauma is never going
Speaker 3: to be good for black people. So a real life
Speaker 3: example is where you have a black person. There was
Speaker 3: a shooting in a mall, uh, just a couple of
Speaker 3: years ago, where a black male assumed a really heroic
Speaker 3: position and sort of thwarted this mass shooting, and in
Speaker 3: return for that, when police came in, they shot and
Speaker 3: killed him right thinking he was the perpetrator. So there's
Speaker 3: a necessity two for preservation, for real survival, to stay
Speaker 3: away from these kinds of moments, right, these crisis moments,
Speaker 3: because we are often not looked at as hero or victim,
Speaker 3: but as perpetrator, as.
Speaker 1: Monstrous whenever we do go towards any situation, even if
Speaker 1: that situation doesn't outwardly seem harmful in the first place,
Speaker 1: and we still end up being the people who violence
Speaker 1: is enacted against in the end. And yet and still
Speaker 1: there is this inner conflict in me. I felt this
Speaker 1: reaction to it, and where I was like, there are
Speaker 1: so many moments in which we are the ones who
Speaker 1: stand up, in which we do run to danger so
Speaker 1: I was relating it to some of the things that
Speaker 1: you talk about in your books about being this sacrificial
Speaker 1: negro or being this fool, this cowardly fool who always
Speaker 1: runs away from the danger. And so I think there's
Speaker 1: this other end of the spectrum of that joke where
Speaker 1: it has this implication that we are too fearful or
Speaker 1: too cowardly.
Speaker 3: So I think context matters. What I do in talking
Speaker 3: about the horror genre is I make a clear distinction,
Speaker 3: and it may be a little bit too on the nose, clear,
Speaker 3: but a clear distinction between black horror and Blacks in horror.
Speaker 3: And so I don't want to conflate the two in
Speaker 3: this reaction. In Blacks in Horror, that's where you see
Speaker 3: the sort of scared, shivering negro, right, the scared negro
Speaker 3: trope that comes up that does the feats don't fail me. Now,
Speaker 3: that's the kind of thing that bothers you. I think
Speaker 3: that doesn't serve black people. That never cast us as smart,
Speaker 3: as heroic, as problem solving that occurs in Blacks in Horror.
Speaker 3: The other thing that you may see in Blacks in
Speaker 3: Horror are these kinds of this white boogeyman in the basement,
Speaker 3: and a black person isn't going to go down there
Speaker 3: and investigate the white boogeyman in the basement. An important
Speaker 3: sort of way that I'm talking about that there's the
Speaker 3: specter of whiteness that we are contending with in that joke, right,
Speaker 3: And so if there's whiteness also or non blackness in
Speaker 3: a range of ways showing up, right, And you don't
Speaker 3: have to be white to be invested in white supremacy.
Speaker 3: So if there's sort of white supremacy showing up, that's
Speaker 3: a danger. It isn't just going as you know, sort
Speaker 3: of descending down the basement steps. The danger is that
Speaker 3: blackness may be treated as monstrous, as other as dangerous,
Speaker 3: and that can lead to the end of our lives.
Speaker 3: Black horror, to correct it, black horror. That's not the
Speaker 3: same sort of response or reaction. It's in black horror
Speaker 3: you see people be heroic. It's in black horror that
Speaker 3: you see the discernment, the reasoning. The For example, Nia
Speaker 3: Dacosta's Candy Man twenty twenty one, this sort of the
Speaker 3: ending the spoiler alert where Brianna, she looks in the mirror,
Speaker 3: she summons candy Man, and up until that point, that
Speaker 3: person who looks in the mirror and summons Candy man,
Speaker 3: they're going to be the victim. But she's bravely entering
Speaker 3: into that space to do some real uncivil, critical problem solving.
Speaker 3: I like using Brianna. That character is a contrast because
Speaker 3: this is also the character who, when she's trying to
Speaker 3: figure out what's going on, has a moment where she's
Speaker 3: literally looking down into a basement down a darkened stairway
Speaker 3: and she says nope, and she you know, it's a
Speaker 3: funny scene. She closes the door and walks away. That's
Speaker 3: because she does not yet know what the monster is, right,
Speaker 3: she doesn't know what's going on, and until she does
Speaker 3: writes some amazing critical thinking on her part. Until she
Speaker 3: does this investigation, understands the context, then she proceeds. There's
Speaker 3: a real difference between the way black people are treated
Speaker 3: and blacks in horror, right, which is this sort of
Speaker 3: these odd objects or they cannot show up as heroic
Speaker 3: because in black's in horror, it's the white character, often
Speaker 3: the white male character, who is cast as hero. So
Speaker 3: there's no way you can write a black character charging
Speaker 3: in and saving the day, because it's the white character. Again,
Speaker 3: often the white male character who is the hero black
Speaker 3: horror does something very different when we think about what
Speaker 3: heroism and problem solving looks like. I do think an
Speaker 3: example of where you see, you know, sort of an
Speaker 3: infamous example, right, this sacrificial Negro trope where you see
Speaker 3: these characters who who are like, I'm going to run
Speaker 3: into danger and by any means necessary, I'm going to
Speaker 3: help out and save the day. Is you know, sort
Speaker 3: of the infamous scene where Scotman Cruthers, the famed actor
Speaker 3: Scotman Cruthers in the Shining. You know, he is on vacation,
Speaker 3: like in Florida. He gets an sos psychically from you know, Danny,
Speaker 3: this white kid, and he leaves his beachside vacation. He
Speaker 3: puts on a coat, he books a ticket across country.
Speaker 3: He does connecting flights. He does this in a snowstorm.
Speaker 3: He goes as far as he can in his car,
Speaker 3: and then he abandons the car, and then he rents
Speaker 3: a snow cat. Like who's paying for all of this?
Speaker 3: Then the brother gets in a snow cat and he
Speaker 3: drives up the mountain and then he abandons the snow
Speaker 3: cat and he gets out and he's trudging through and
Speaker 3: the feats of snow chloral feats to walk through the
Speaker 3: door to save this white family. And as soon as
Speaker 3: he walks in the door, he gets an axe to
Speaker 3: the chest. Now Black audiences are sitting in the theater
Speaker 3: looking like, I'm skeptical here because in some ways you're saying,
Speaker 3: homeboy couldn't see that axe coming. What is he thinking
Speaker 3: running across country to do this. That's the sacrificial negro.
Speaker 3: That's not his business. He has a family, right, This
Speaker 3: is we're supposed to believe that he centered. This family
Speaker 3: is his priority at the expense of an invisible black family, relatives, children, grandchildren,
Speaker 3: right right. That's what running into that kind of danger
Speaker 3: really means. When I say it's about black survival, it
Speaker 3: means that we no longer have him. His family, who
Speaker 3: doesn't even make this scre green, no longer has him
Speaker 3: of you know, a girlfriend, a partner, friends, All of
Speaker 3: that is denied by him running through the door.
Speaker 1: It also devalues and portrays black people, in this specific case,
Speaker 1: a black man as a person who devalues his connections
Speaker 1: to his own family.
Speaker 3: So the only correction there is that we think about
Speaker 3: that in his relationship to blackness, because we're bringing that
Speaker 3: meana making of a black lens. But remember that's a
Speaker 3: blacks in horror film, which means that the writers they
Speaker 3: weren't thinking, where is this brother's you know, sisters and
Speaker 3: aunties and you know the siblings and all of that.
Speaker 3: Where are his people? So they're not thinking that he's
Speaker 3: absented himself. Right, this character didn't do it, But the
Speaker 3: way to make him seem or appear heroic is to
Speaker 3: be so sacrificing, so selfless in support of whiteness that
Speaker 3: he would give up all of blackness to do it.
Speaker 3: That's not that character that comes out of the imagination
Speaker 3: of those who operate outside of a whole in full blackness.
Speaker 1: How can we portray these black characters as hero is
Speaker 1: going forward and keeping them in these nuanced portrayals?
Speaker 3: So there are two things I think. The first is
Speaker 3: the example I gave of like Brianna and Niadcosta's candy Man,
Speaker 3: which is a contrast to Bernard Rose's candy Man of
Speaker 3: nineteen ninety two, where in that candy Man, the black
Speaker 3: folks were really disempowered and they were like, oh my gosh,
Speaker 3: there's a monster here. And then the entire kind of
Speaker 3: housing project. Cabrini Green turned to Helen, the white savior,
Speaker 3: to come and solve the problem. Right, that's the difference
Speaker 3: between blackhr where Brianna saves the day verse Black's in horror,
Speaker 3: where there's Helen, who's the white protagonist who sort of
Speaker 3: saves the day. What I think is a solution first
Speaker 3: is that we need much more black horror, and that
Speaker 3: is having that part of the genre, which I call
Speaker 3: horror noir, more robustly represented. But it also requires a
Speaker 3: much more diverse writer's room and people who are there
Speaker 3: creating and imagining stories and talking about the ways that
Speaker 3: black people show up, how black people show up in
Speaker 3: black horror. You see all kinds of heroism. But I
Speaker 3: also don't want to discount what that sort of we're
Speaker 3: smart enough not to go their means. That doesn't mean
Speaker 3: that we're the scared negro in a horror movie, whether
Speaker 3: it's Black horror or Black's in horror. There is something
Speaker 3: that is very smart and discerning about This isn't running
Speaker 3: into a fire and saving baby kittens. This is in horror.
Speaker 3: This is about charging in staring a monster in the eye,
Speaker 3: to be slaughtered because horror is about the monster. That's
Speaker 3: what horror films are about. And there's something that doctor
Speaker 3: Barry is getting at when he says, we're like, Nope,
Speaker 3: we're not doing that, which also means we're not gonna
Speaker 3: be sacrificial Negro number two in a horror movie.
Speaker 1: Today, you unlocked something for me, because I feel like
Speaker 1: that became something that is very empowering. There is an
Speaker 1: inherent pause in what you said. Instead of it being
Speaker 1: something like us continually running to this joke because we
Speaker 1: don't believe in ourselves to be able to face a thing,
Speaker 1: It's more like we understand the power in our pause
Speaker 1: and our ability to in a single moment, have this
Speaker 1: risk assessment and have this moment where we can say,
Speaker 1: I know the fears and dangers that I face that
Speaker 1: are very real, and they're my choice is what path
Speaker 1: do I take? So it's also a moment of I
Speaker 1: guess a lot of self awareness and ability to assess
Speaker 1: a moment and choose what to do in the next
Speaker 1: rather than running quickly into something that could be life ending.
Speaker 3: Survival for black people is the greatest gift, it's the
Speaker 3: greatest contribution. That's what we want is the survival of blackness.
Speaker 3: So yes, the pause is a powerful one.
Speaker 1: So do you think that we should continue telling this joke?
Speaker 3: So I'm reminded of a quote, and it's paraphrasing because
Speaker 3: I don't think I have it perfectly right, But George
Speaker 3: Bernard Shaw says, when a thing is funny, search for
Speaker 3: a hidden truth. And this sort of humorous approach is
Speaker 3: pointing to a truth. And I think that that is
Speaker 3: one of many invaluable tools to remind us, both in
Speaker 3: the real and in the imagined, what black people still
Speaker 3: navigating in the US. I think people should love the
Speaker 3: humor behind it. I think that there's something that's interesting
Speaker 3: and reflexive about it, and it doesn't diminish black folks
Speaker 3: or their sort of stature in society, or their discernment
Speaker 3: or their heroism, but that it is really not so
Speaker 3: much a reflection on blackness, but it is a reflection
Speaker 3: on the dangers of whiteness and horror. And so shifting
Speaker 3: that understanding to saying, Okay, what are we stepping back from?
Speaker 3: Oh that danger right there, which we know we have
Speaker 3: experienced centuries of danger right there. That's the importance of
Speaker 3: what he's writing about.
Speaker 1: Could you talk about any other examples of black people
Speaker 1: not high tailing it out of there in a recent
Speaker 1: movie that you've seen that you love.
Speaker 3: Oh, there's a whole there's a whole genre of those movies,
Speaker 3: and those are the black horror movies.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 3: I have favorites. Jay Dillard's Sweetheart is you know where
Speaker 3: you have a black woman who is the heroic person
Speaker 3: who stares down the monster. Spoiler alert, right, I like
Speaker 3: attack the block. John Boyega's character also one who is
Speaker 3: you know, discerning. Sometimes he's not going headlong into the
Speaker 3: monster and other times he's doing battle, right, But that's
Speaker 3: what we expect of complex situations, and he ultimately stares
Speaker 3: down the monster figures out a way another spoiler work
Speaker 3: to do some annihilation of some bad stuff. So that
Speaker 3: that is what black horror does, is that it treats
Speaker 3: black intervention in a very different way, and we don't
Speaker 3: always have to win, but it is a very different
Speaker 3: treatment of the ways in which we show up.
Speaker 1: Katie, I have to tell you, after speaking with Doctor
Speaker 1: Means Coleman, I changed my mind. I went into this
Speaker 1: already like wanting to retire this joke.
Speaker 3: But I'm cool with it all.
Speaker 1: Now, I hold all of these truths together, and it's complicated,
Speaker 1: as our most things, but I'm at peace with that.
Speaker 1: Be free y'all to resort to this joke a million
Speaker 1: more times, because you know we will. And actually, thanks
Speaker 1: to doctor Means Coleman, I feel free to not even
Speaker 1: think of it as this stale joke that I've heard
Speaker 1: so many times before. But instead I get to think
Speaker 1: of it as this kind of wise adage born of
Speaker 1: our breath of experience, concern for our own and others
Speaker 1: well being, and our beautiful propensity for survival and extreme circumstances.
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, the gross I did not think I
Speaker 2: would see the day. And I'm glad that you got
Speaker 2: to talk to doctor Means Coleman because she really broke
Speaker 2: it down. Oh and y'all don't forget to support doctor
Speaker 2: Means Coleman.
Speaker 3: You can follow me on Twitter at Means Coleman. Grab
Speaker 3: a copy of The Black Eyed Dice, first co authored
Speaker 3: with Mark Harris, and if you want a still deeper,
Speaker 3: scholarly dive, grab a copy of Horror and a War,
Speaker 3: the second edition. Both books came out this year twenty
Speaker 3: twenty three.
Speaker 2: Eaves It's My favorite part of the show roll credits,
Speaker 2: where we give credit to a person, place, thing, idea
Speaker 2: that we've encountered during the week that you know, we
Speaker 2: just want to give them some props, give them a
Speaker 2: little shout out. So this week, I would like to
Speaker 2: give credit to the Shrine of the Black Madonna in Atlanta, Georgia,
Speaker 2: the West End. It's known for being one of the
Speaker 2: first churches that showed Mary Jesus' mom is a black woman.
Speaker 2: They've been so helpful for me while I'm writing my
Speaker 2: book about black bookstores. They're the nicest people and it's
Speaker 2: just really nice to have, you know, older black folks
Speaker 2: like looking out for you, helping you on your path
Speaker 2: whatever you're doing, and being like excited for you. So
Speaker 2: shout out to all the folks at the Shrine of
Speaker 2: the Black Madonna. They also have a bookstore connected to
Speaker 2: the church, So if you're ever in Atlanta, hit them up.
Speaker 2: Who do you want to give credit to? Who are what?
Speaker 3: So?
Speaker 1: I would like to give credit to black people who
Speaker 1: write horror, black people who make horror films, black people
Speaker 1: who are invested in horror content and thinking about horror content.
Speaker 2: We'll see you next week.
Speaker 1: And In the meantime, we are going to watch some
Speaker 1: horror and try our best not to yell at the
Speaker 1: screen the whole time.
Speaker 2: Now you know that's impossible, you Right.
Speaker 1: On Theme is a production of iHeartRadio and Fairweather Friends Media.
Speaker 1: This episode was written by Eves, Jeffco and Katie Mitchell.
Speaker 1: It was edited and produced by Tari Harrison. Follow us
Speaker 1: on Instagram at on Theme Show. You can also send
Speaker 1: us an email at hello at on Theme dot show.
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Speaker 2: Do you think you would recognized someone that looks just
Speaker 2: like you know, I thought that's what you guys stopped cowering.
Speaker 1: Well, some people just freeze, you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would probably the same thing. I would probably
Speaker 2: just die.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, No, you wouldn't
Speaker 2: Have I said this before.