1 00:00:01,360 --> 00:00:04,200 Speaker 1: On Theme is a production of iHeartRadio and fair Weather 2 00:00:04,280 --> 00:00:18,280 Speaker 1: Friends Media. 3 00:00:20,360 --> 00:00:28,440 Speaker 2: I'm Katie and I'm Eves. Today on the podcast, we 4 00:00:28,480 --> 00:00:29,840 Speaker 2: go toward the Danger. 5 00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:34,479 Speaker 1: Okay, Katie, So I have a little pop quiz for you. 6 00:00:35,040 --> 00:00:37,400 Speaker 1: Are you ready for it? 7 00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:37,880 Speaker 2: Yes? 8 00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:40,280 Speaker 1: So it's only one question, So it's a pretty short 9 00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:44,280 Speaker 1: pop quiz. If you were an archetypal character in a 10 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:47,640 Speaker 1: horror movie, which one do you think that you would be? 11 00:00:48,479 --> 00:00:53,440 Speaker 2: Absolutely? No question. I'm the black person against killed first. 12 00:00:55,280 --> 00:00:57,840 Speaker 1: And you know what, I was fully expecting you to 13 00:00:57,880 --> 00:01:00,120 Speaker 1: say that, because I feel like in conversations that we've 14 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:03,200 Speaker 1: had about danger before, you have said that you would 15 00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:05,520 Speaker 1: die quickly. And I've tried to get you out of 16 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:08,480 Speaker 1: saying that because I want. 17 00:01:08,319 --> 00:01:10,320 Speaker 2: That to be ad. Yeah, I would be Not only 18 00:01:10,319 --> 00:01:13,640 Speaker 2: would I die first, I would like actively try to 19 00:01:13,800 --> 00:01:14,520 Speaker 2: die first. 20 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:18,840 Speaker 1: Well, I love horror, and I don't think that I 21 00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:21,039 Speaker 1: would be the person who would die first, at least 22 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:22,959 Speaker 1: not hopefully. 23 00:01:23,040 --> 00:01:27,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you would survive. You think I would survive? Yeah, 24 00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:27,400 Speaker 2: that's you. 25 00:01:28,040 --> 00:01:31,280 Speaker 1: I'm glad you think that highly of me. Anyway, there 26 00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:34,800 Speaker 1: is this running joke that black folks would act way 27 00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:38,679 Speaker 1: differently than white people do in horror movies that a 28 00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:42,520 Speaker 1: black person would like never pull out a flashlight or 29 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:47,280 Speaker 1: go into a pitch black cave looking for answers, like, 30 00:01:47,360 --> 00:01:49,720 Speaker 1: there is no way in the world we would go 31 00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:52,680 Speaker 1: looking for smoke with anyone who had just gone on 32 00:01:53,160 --> 00:01:55,920 Speaker 1: a killing spree or something similar. 33 00:01:56,160 --> 00:01:58,280 Speaker 2: There's this perception that black folks aren't going to do 34 00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:01,400 Speaker 2: anything that puts us in more danger, Like why would 35 00:02:01,440 --> 00:02:04,880 Speaker 2: we choose to do that when we could choose to 36 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:07,800 Speaker 2: survive or at least do what's ever in our power 37 00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:09,480 Speaker 2: to escape exactly. 38 00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:12,080 Speaker 1: And it's such a known joke that black folks be 39 00:02:12,120 --> 00:02:15,280 Speaker 1: screaming at the screen saying that we would never do something. 40 00:02:23,639 --> 00:02:27,919 Speaker 2: And I mean, the joke makes sense because generally people 41 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:31,080 Speaker 2: be doing some wild stuff in horror movies, making the 42 00:02:31,120 --> 00:02:34,040 Speaker 2: wrong decision at literally every turn. 43 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:36,399 Speaker 1: And you know we do that in real life too, 44 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:39,200 Speaker 1: So obviously there's room for that, and that makes sense 45 00:02:39,240 --> 00:02:42,640 Speaker 1: to depict it that way. That's necessary also to build 46 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:46,960 Speaker 1: tension and for entertainment value, so we can actually enjoy 47 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:50,280 Speaker 1: things as we're watching them, even if they're horror. But 48 00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:53,480 Speaker 1: there is a lot more at play when you throw 49 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:57,600 Speaker 1: race into the equation. There is not an overwhelming amount 50 00:02:57,639 --> 00:03:00,680 Speaker 1: of research on it, but there have been studies on 51 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:05,360 Speaker 1: links between race and risk aversion or tolerance as it 52 00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:09,680 Speaker 1: relates to different fields like healthcare, for instance. So we 53 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:13,200 Speaker 1: may tend to be more risk averse in certain situations. 54 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:16,320 Speaker 1: But on the other hand, black people can be perceived 55 00:03:16,440 --> 00:03:19,360 Speaker 1: to be more reckless in their risk taking, and that 56 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:21,800 Speaker 1: was the case in a twenty twenty one study out 57 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:25,920 Speaker 1: of Northwestern University. In it, the authors found that the 58 00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:30,760 Speaker 1: mostly white participants imagined reckless risk takers as black by 59 00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:35,480 Speaker 1: appearance and by stereotypical traits, and they recognize responsible risk 60 00:03:35,560 --> 00:03:36,600 Speaker 1: takers as white. 61 00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:39,119 Speaker 3: So while some of us Black folks. 62 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:42,320 Speaker 1: May swear that we are experts, experts and knowing how 63 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:46,160 Speaker 1: to slide out of tricky situations, racism would have some 64 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:49,040 Speaker 1: belief that we take all of the unnecessary risks. 65 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:53,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's interesting that these, you know, studies contradict 66 00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:57,160 Speaker 2: the way we're seen in some instances, but affirms the 67 00:03:57,200 --> 00:04:00,160 Speaker 2: way we're seeing to some people, because you know, black 68 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:03,880 Speaker 2: people love to say what black people love to say. 69 00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:10,360 Speaker 2: Black people aren't a monolith. It's true though, It's so true. 70 00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:12,800 Speaker 2: So like, of course, there are going to be some 71 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:15,000 Speaker 2: reckless folks, and there are going to be some very 72 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:18,520 Speaker 2: you know, timid folks who aren't going to take any risk. 73 00:04:19,360 --> 00:04:22,640 Speaker 2: You know, we all have different lives. Our risk assessments 74 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:25,520 Speaker 2: depend on what we've been through, you know, lived experience, 75 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:28,719 Speaker 2: how we handle things, and the conditions of our environment. 76 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:31,320 Speaker 2: There are a million and one reasons we may assume 77 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:34,839 Speaker 2: that we don't want to confront danger. We face enough 78 00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:38,680 Speaker 2: terror in everyday live child, and we know that we 79 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:42,080 Speaker 2: are more likely to be harm in certain circumstances. What 80 00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:47,400 Speaker 2: may happen to me doing something risky than a white woman, 81 00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:51,719 Speaker 2: same age, same everything else could be totally different And 82 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:54,920 Speaker 2: guess who's gonna get blamed for it? My black ass. 83 00:04:55,440 --> 00:04:59,800 Speaker 1: So when black people joke about leaving a dangerous situation 84 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:03,640 Speaker 1: with no hesitation, it can be funny, and it can 85 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:08,200 Speaker 1: be true, and it's a legitimate observation and deduction that 86 00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:11,720 Speaker 1: we would be more risk averse, especially in life or 87 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:12,960 Speaker 1: death situations. 88 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:16,919 Speaker 2: But see, I felt a butt coming. 89 00:05:17,760 --> 00:05:18,880 Speaker 3: But at the. 90 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:23,640 Speaker 1: Risk of being that sad, sad soul who takes a 91 00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:28,120 Speaker 1: joke far too seriously. I want to make the case 92 00:05:28,400 --> 00:05:33,240 Speaker 1: for why this joke about black people running away from 93 00:05:33,279 --> 00:05:36,800 Speaker 1: the danger always being too prepared and too ready to 94 00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:40,440 Speaker 1: leave a situation or not even enter it for why 95 00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:45,280 Speaker 1: that joke could be revised or maybe even could be 96 00:05:45,320 --> 00:05:47,240 Speaker 1: put to rest. 97 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:51,000 Speaker 2: Okay, you know I'm ready to hear this case. I'll 98 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:53,960 Speaker 2: be the judge, Judy, excuse me, the judge, Joe Brown, 99 00:05:56,320 --> 00:06:00,280 Speaker 2: the judge maybe Lean period. But there there are a 100 00:06:00,279 --> 00:06:02,120 Speaker 2: lot of reasons that the joke is a vouid thing 101 00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:04,719 Speaker 2: to say, though. You know, I know that this joke 102 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:07,080 Speaker 2: has become a thing because of the actions that people 103 00:06:07,080 --> 00:06:09,279 Speaker 2: take and a lot of horror doesn't resonate with some 104 00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:12,839 Speaker 2: of us. Otherwise we wouldn't be saying the joke. But 105 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:14,720 Speaker 2: you know, our fears can be different, and the way 106 00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:17,560 Speaker 2: we respond to them and write about that can be 107 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:20,200 Speaker 2: different from a lot of those tropes we see written 108 00:06:20,279 --> 00:06:21,560 Speaker 2: by non black creators. 109 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:25,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, black folks have a shared sense of what we 110 00:06:25,760 --> 00:06:29,640 Speaker 1: would and what we wouldn't do in these dire situations 111 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:35,760 Speaker 1: that is based on personal experience and observation and standards 112 00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:40,240 Speaker 1: of safety, et cetera, et cetera. I know that we 113 00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:43,719 Speaker 1: know as entertainment as well, the drama is there on 114 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:47,800 Speaker 1: purpose and the point is not always representing real life 115 00:06:47,839 --> 00:06:51,159 Speaker 1: as accurately as possible. So I had to sit there 116 00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:56,520 Speaker 1: and ask myself, why is this joke bothering me so bad? 117 00:06:57,160 --> 00:06:58,320 Speaker 2: Like, girl, the. 118 00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:01,040 Speaker 1: Joke is based on facts, and obviously it's made in 119 00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:04,440 Speaker 1: good fun. Why am I taking something that is so 120 00:07:04,560 --> 00:07:09,920 Speaker 1: understandable so personally? And I have a theory, but you'll 121 00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:12,880 Speaker 1: have to hear it after the break got me. 122 00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:26,400 Speaker 2: So we want to know, why should this joke about 123 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:30,080 Speaker 2: black people always avoiding danger in horror movies go the 124 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:31,840 Speaker 2: way of extra taties. 125 00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:34,360 Speaker 1: I'm going to start with the low hanging fruit. 126 00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:35,400 Speaker 2: Okay. 127 00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:39,680 Speaker 1: So I know that this is personal, but it just 128 00:07:39,880 --> 00:07:43,120 Speaker 1: didn't feel like it applied to me. I know it's 129 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:46,400 Speaker 1: a joke, and I know it's a generalization. So I 130 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:49,720 Speaker 1: had this kind of strong reaction to it, like I 131 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:52,400 Speaker 1: want to believe that I'm going to protect my home 132 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:55,240 Speaker 1: and my people and that I'm not going to give 133 00:07:55,360 --> 00:07:58,840 Speaker 1: up that easily, and the fact that it's just a 134 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:02,720 Speaker 1: default joke was really getting me in my feels a 135 00:08:02,760 --> 00:08:03,600 Speaker 1: lot more about it. 136 00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:07,280 Speaker 2: Okay, So here's my thing though. So you're in the 137 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:13,200 Speaker 2: apocalypse right the world and then there's no modern comforts, 138 00:08:13,280 --> 00:08:16,800 Speaker 2: like y'all really just out here and you fight, you fight, 139 00:08:16,840 --> 00:08:20,680 Speaker 2: and defend your home, defend your people. Okay, say you win. 140 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:24,520 Speaker 2: Now what, I don't want to live in this world. 141 00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:28,480 Speaker 2: I don't like this, you know what I'm saying. Yeah, 142 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:30,200 Speaker 2: that would be like, what are these people fighting so 143 00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:35,280 Speaker 2: hard for? Like life as you know it is done? 144 00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:37,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, But I guess the thing is there are some 145 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:42,480 Speaker 1: people who still care to live even within that new paradigm. 146 00:08:42,760 --> 00:08:44,400 Speaker 1: Versus there are people who are just like I don't 147 00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:45,600 Speaker 1: even want to experience it. 148 00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:46,680 Speaker 2: I'm cool with what I know. 149 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:50,240 Speaker 1: So I guess that also depends on your tolerance for 150 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:54,679 Speaker 1: a change and a change that is unpredictable to you. 151 00:08:55,320 --> 00:08:59,080 Speaker 1: It's a spectrum of experiences and thoughts on that for 152 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:00,600 Speaker 1: different people. 153 00:09:01,040 --> 00:09:03,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm on the low end of that spect. 154 00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:07,600 Speaker 1: So point number two. In so many of the works 155 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:11,840 Speaker 1: that we create, we involve ourselves in business that we 156 00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:14,800 Speaker 1: shouldn't be involved in. We do things like we follow 157 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:20,960 Speaker 1: the noise, we open the door, we investigate things, we 158 00:09:21,080 --> 00:09:23,439 Speaker 1: try to see what's going on. We might be a 159 00:09:23,480 --> 00:09:25,800 Speaker 1: little bit nervous, a little bit fearful, but we might 160 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:29,120 Speaker 1: still do the thing we do all of the things 161 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:32,040 Speaker 1: that put us in the path of danger. So take 162 00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:35,720 Speaker 1: for example, Jordan Peels Us, in which the father warns 163 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:40,360 Speaker 1: the Doppelganger family that they don't want any smoke with them. 164 00:09:40,120 --> 00:09:43,400 Speaker 3: So if y'all want to get crazy, we can get crazy. 165 00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:47,719 Speaker 1: Of course, getting into trouble is a function of storytelling. 166 00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:50,560 Speaker 1: People have to be involved in things, they have to 167 00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:54,359 Speaker 1: take action, get wrapped up in some sort of problem. 168 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:57,840 Speaker 1: But saying that black people wouldn't look into a creepy 169 00:09:57,880 --> 00:10:00,960 Speaker 1: sound to see what's up, or run right into the 170 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:04,320 Speaker 1: stalker because they took a wrong turn, that's just not 171 00:10:04,559 --> 00:10:07,240 Speaker 1: fair to the black creators who make works with us 172 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:09,920 Speaker 1: falling for these kinds of traps and doing the things 173 00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:11,840 Speaker 1: that just simply make us human. 174 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:15,200 Speaker 2: That's very true. And you know, I think we all 175 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:17,840 Speaker 2: like to think that we're like smarter than the people 176 00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:21,520 Speaker 2: that we see making these choices. You know what the 177 00:10:21,559 --> 00:10:24,439 Speaker 2: thing is, the characters in horror movies do not know 178 00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:27,200 Speaker 2: they are in horror movies. And there's this really good 179 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:31,560 Speaker 2: zz Packer quote that was in her collection of short 180 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:36,199 Speaker 2: stories called Drinking Coffee Elsewhere. She says, when she'd watched 181 00:10:36,200 --> 00:10:38,559 Speaker 2: horror movies, it seemed easy enough to know when the 182 00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:43,280 Speaker 2: victims should leave, run hide. They're always shrieking violins and 183 00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:46,560 Speaker 2: threatening sawing cellos to alert you to danger, but here 184 00:10:47,160 --> 00:10:50,120 Speaker 2: there were none. And I really think about that because 185 00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:53,640 Speaker 2: I've definitely been in situations that if there was an 186 00:10:53,679 --> 00:10:57,200 Speaker 2: audience watching me, they'd be screaming at me to not 187 00:10:57,240 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 2: do the thing that I inevitably do because I just 188 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:02,480 Speaker 2: don't know any better. I don't have perfect information. I'm 189 00:11:02,480 --> 00:11:05,640 Speaker 2: not watching from the comforts of my living room as 190 00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:09,520 Speaker 2: I make these bad decisions or make the wrong turn, 191 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:13,680 Speaker 2: and so without that perfect information, people and characters in 192 00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:18,360 Speaker 2: movies behave imperfectly. And it's easy to say that if 193 00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:20,680 Speaker 2: it were you in that situation, you would do different, 194 00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:23,600 Speaker 2: but come on, be for real, Like if you look 195 00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:26,079 Speaker 2: at your life as a movie, there's definitely some horror 196 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:27,920 Speaker 2: horror movie decisions you. 197 00:11:27,920 --> 00:11:32,680 Speaker 1: Made, plenty of them, plenty of horror movie decisions. And 198 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:37,760 Speaker 1: there's also this sorry history of portrayals in white created 199 00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:43,680 Speaker 1: media of black folks being these scared, meek or subservient negroes. 200 00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:46,680 Speaker 1: And I don't think it does us any favors to 201 00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:49,960 Speaker 1: pile onto the idea that we aren't capable of facing 202 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:50,720 Speaker 1: our fears. 203 00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:52,319 Speaker 2: And this point leads. 204 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:57,000 Speaker 1: Me to number three, which is that we have a solid, 205 00:11:57,160 --> 00:12:01,280 Speaker 1: non fictional history of choosing the path of most resistance 206 00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:05,080 Speaker 1: when necessary. I think this one is the reason why 207 00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:07,800 Speaker 1: my knee jerk reaction to the joke is so dramatic. 208 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:12,560 Speaker 1: It just makes me feel like we believe we are cowardly. 209 00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:15,880 Speaker 1: Of course, our fears aren't all the same, so I 210 00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:19,400 Speaker 1: don't like the idea of confining black folks to a 211 00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:24,439 Speaker 1: single experience of fear response and risk tolerance. It makes 212 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:27,960 Speaker 1: it seem like we always end up choosing safety and 213 00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:32,320 Speaker 1: comfort over courage and defense of a just cause, and 214 00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:36,360 Speaker 1: the optics of that just makes me feel really icky. 215 00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:41,000 Speaker 1: The history of black folks on this earth is exactly 216 00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:44,200 Speaker 1: the opposite of that, So we stay putting ourselves at 217 00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:48,880 Speaker 1: risk to fight for and to protect our own in others. So, 218 00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:52,440 Speaker 1: without even getting into value judgments on that, I am 219 00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:57,440 Speaker 1: uncomfortable with perpetuating this idea that we are always too 220 00:12:57,520 --> 00:13:00,359 Speaker 1: spooked to face a thing that scares ay. 221 00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:04,080 Speaker 2: When you think about it, sometimes the horror movies we see, 222 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:09,600 Speaker 2: it's kind of like this one group of friends are 223 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:12,240 Speaker 2: in a cabin in the woods and there's this one 224 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:16,520 Speaker 2: killer on the loose, right, But I mean having dogs 225 00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:20,040 Speaker 2: sticked on you as you walk asking for your right 226 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:24,360 Speaker 2: to vote. That's horror, that's you know, that's like some 227 00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:28,240 Speaker 2: scary shit. And people did it, you know, day in 228 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:33,320 Speaker 2: and day out, knowing that that danger was not even 229 00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:36,440 Speaker 2: just possible, but probable, you know what I'm saying. It 230 00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:39,199 Speaker 2: wasn't like, oh, they were shocked that these dogs came out, 231 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:41,280 Speaker 2: maybe the first time, but you know, after a while, 232 00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:42,760 Speaker 2: you're like, you know, the dogs are coming out, you 233 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:45,240 Speaker 2: know the fire holes are coming out. You know you're 234 00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:49,319 Speaker 2: gonna get beat with the baton, and yet those people 235 00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:52,760 Speaker 2: still face that danger. So you know what, now I'm 236 00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:57,040 Speaker 2: thinking that this trope is around so black people don't 237 00:13:57,120 --> 00:14:01,240 Speaker 2: rise up in revolution. Think about it, like Harriet Tubman, 238 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:05,280 Speaker 2: you got the dogs on your tail. You know that 239 00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:09,600 Speaker 2: if you get caught, you are going to get beaten, 240 00:14:09,760 --> 00:14:16,120 Speaker 2: probably die. You're using the stars in the moon to 241 00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:19,320 Speaker 2: find your way, and you aren't just doing it for yourself, 242 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:21,160 Speaker 2: but you're doing it for all these other you know, 243 00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:25,360 Speaker 2: enslaved people who are running to Like that's a horror movie. 244 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:30,240 Speaker 1: There is so much about the real world where we 245 00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:33,040 Speaker 1: do the thing that is the hardest thing to do. 246 00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:35,880 Speaker 1: We do the thing that's the scariest thing. To do, 247 00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:41,720 Speaker 1: and you know, these situations in which we're having dogs 248 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:45,080 Speaker 1: sticked on us, in which we're in darkness and having 249 00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:48,360 Speaker 1: to try to find our ways to places we know, 250 00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:53,960 Speaker 1: we are running from situations that meant death and torture 251 00:14:54,040 --> 00:14:59,360 Speaker 1: for us and running into situations that are unknown, which 252 00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:01,920 Speaker 1: is another fear in itself, is like, you know, just 253 00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:03,920 Speaker 1: because we were leaving one place that was full of 254 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:07,200 Speaker 1: danger and we were going toward another, doesn't mean that 255 00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:09,680 Speaker 1: it was going to be a one hundred percent safe 256 00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:12,200 Speaker 1: place for us, and it likely wasn't going to be 257 00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:16,520 Speaker 1: because we live in a world where so many different 258 00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:22,680 Speaker 1: places are dangerous to black people, and it is just 259 00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:26,760 Speaker 1: so much more realistic to think about how we do 260 00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:32,120 Speaker 1: so frequently choose these paths that involve danger out of necessity, 261 00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:39,200 Speaker 1: out of courage and out of a willingness to survive, 262 00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:43,120 Speaker 1: and out of optimism and hope, because I do think 263 00:15:43,160 --> 00:15:46,880 Speaker 1: that it takes a certain amount of optimism and hope 264 00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:49,400 Speaker 1: to be able to think that you're going to overcome 265 00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:52,000 Speaker 1: a situation that you know is already dangerous and that 266 00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:55,600 Speaker 1: you will be a person who's integral into changing that 267 00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:58,120 Speaker 1: situation into one that has a positive outcome. 268 00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:01,560 Speaker 2: All right, let's go to this ad break, but don't 269 00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:04,160 Speaker 2: go too far. We will be waiting for you on 270 00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:19,520 Speaker 2: the other side. Okay, we're back, and we didn't scare 271 00:16:19,560 --> 00:16:21,920 Speaker 2: them enough to keep them away, so clearly that people 272 00:16:21,960 --> 00:16:23,800 Speaker 2: want to hear the rest of this list what you 273 00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:24,440 Speaker 2: got next? 274 00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:27,880 Speaker 1: So number four, this one is kind of a counterpoint 275 00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:31,480 Speaker 1: to the last point. That assumption that we avoid fear 276 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:35,800 Speaker 1: like the plague can imply that we're cowardly, but on 277 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:39,200 Speaker 1: the opposite end of the spectrum, it can also play 278 00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:44,440 Speaker 1: into the idea that we are above making mistakes. But 279 00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:48,120 Speaker 1: are we smarter than getting ourselves caught up? Do we 280 00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:50,840 Speaker 1: know better than to go risking our lives when we 281 00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:54,600 Speaker 1: can just walk away and we know damn well that 282 00:16:54,680 --> 00:16:58,040 Speaker 1: our parents raised us better than that. Saying that we 283 00:16:58,080 --> 00:17:01,360 Speaker 1: would never make an unwise or a logical decision that 284 00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:04,800 Speaker 1: puts us in danger, it really takes away from our 285 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:09,600 Speaker 1: ability to be fallible. We are not superhuman. We don't 286 00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:12,679 Speaker 1: always make the correct choices. We mess up a lot. 287 00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:16,520 Speaker 1: We are flawed, and I want stories about us to 288 00:17:16,600 --> 00:17:19,440 Speaker 1: really reflect that. I don't want to pretend that we're perfect. 289 00:17:19,840 --> 00:17:24,840 Speaker 2: There's this Maya Angelou quote about like pretending that we're 290 00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:27,520 Speaker 2: perfect and we never mess up. So in a nineteen 291 00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:30,560 Speaker 2: ninety five article, she talked about her past, and in 292 00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:35,600 Speaker 2: this interview, she said, I wrote about my experiences because 293 00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:38,520 Speaker 2: I thought too many people tell young folks I never 294 00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:42,840 Speaker 2: did anything wrong. Who why never? I I have no 295 00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:45,600 Speaker 2: skeletons in my closet. In fact, I have no closet. 296 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:48,639 Speaker 2: They lie like that, and then young people find themselves 297 00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:51,320 Speaker 2: in situations and they think, damn, I must be a 298 00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:53,560 Speaker 2: pretty bad guy. You know, my mom and dad never 299 00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:55,880 Speaker 2: did anything wrong, so I'm pretty bad and they can't 300 00:17:55,880 --> 00:17:59,639 Speaker 2: forgive themselves. And I felt that like, if everyone's hiding 301 00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:04,399 Speaker 2: everything that they've ever done that they're not the proudest of, 302 00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:07,960 Speaker 2: then there's nothing to learn from from younger generations coming 303 00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:11,280 Speaker 2: up behind you, whether it's your direct lineage or justlike 304 00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:14,560 Speaker 2: people who who know your story right, they're like getting 305 00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:18,040 Speaker 2: half of the story. So I think, like with tying 306 00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:22,520 Speaker 2: that back to horror movies, like, yeah, these people are 307 00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:27,720 Speaker 2: making like to us, obviously wrong decisions, but maybe they're 308 00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:30,159 Speaker 2: kind of like, hey, this is what I did and 309 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:31,439 Speaker 2: this is what happened from it. 310 00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:33,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think we have a lot to learn from 311 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:37,399 Speaker 1: seeing black people do things wrong in horror movies for 312 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:41,400 Speaker 1: the reasons that you just said. It's actually very edifying 313 00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:44,960 Speaker 1: to see people mess up, and to see people like 314 00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:48,000 Speaker 1: us mess up in ways, especially in where we control 315 00:18:48,119 --> 00:18:51,760 Speaker 1: those narratives. It's hard to make good decisions because how 316 00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:54,879 Speaker 1: can you even determine what is a good decision or 317 00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:56,240 Speaker 1: not before crystal ball? 318 00:18:56,960 --> 00:18:57,520 Speaker 2: And that's it. 319 00:18:57,800 --> 00:18:58,719 Speaker 3: You gotta be magic. 320 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:02,240 Speaker 2: So we reach your fifth and final point, bring it 321 00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:02,720 Speaker 2: all home. 322 00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:07,280 Speaker 1: This one. I just want it to be pretty simple, 323 00:19:08,119 --> 00:19:12,760 Speaker 1: and that's that fear does not save us. That sounds 324 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:16,480 Speaker 1: so serious, but it feels like the idea that our 325 00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:20,000 Speaker 1: fear will keep us out of danger is the message 326 00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:23,320 Speaker 1: that's kind of hovering in the background of this joke. 327 00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:26,679 Speaker 1: But the reality is running away from a threat or 328 00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:30,840 Speaker 1: avoiding a single threat does not guarantee our safety or 329 00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:36,760 Speaker 1: our survival. So avoiding confrontation can absolutely be healthy, but 330 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:40,919 Speaker 1: choosing not to engage is not always the only good option. 331 00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:44,520 Speaker 1: So look, what I Am always going to do is 332 00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:49,040 Speaker 1: hold us to a high standard. I'm a firm believer 333 00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 1: in the power of words, so I just want us 334 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:55,239 Speaker 1: to think about the things that we say. There is 335 00:19:55,320 --> 00:19:59,560 Speaker 1: nothing more to that, Nothing less. I know it's not 336 00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:06,120 Speaker 1: that deep. I know there is a big culture of 337 00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:10,040 Speaker 1: making things deeper than they need to be, although I 338 00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:13,640 Speaker 1: don't always think that's necessarily a bad thing. I think 339 00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:17,239 Speaker 1: it's kind of beautiful that we are so analytical, that 340 00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:20,320 Speaker 1: we have so much access to information, and that we're 341 00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:23,720 Speaker 1: able to share our thoughts and think critically around things 342 00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:28,960 Speaker 1: in ways that can be super impactful and super meaningful. 343 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:34,760 Speaker 1: So I acknowledge that it's not that deep. My point 344 00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:38,520 Speaker 1: is that it's all in the spirit of love. I 345 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:42,840 Speaker 1: just want to make room for curiosity and care. That's it, 346 00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:46,639 Speaker 1: that's real. And this is where doctor Robin R. Means 347 00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:47,760 Speaker 1: Coleman comes in. 348 00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:51,960 Speaker 3: So my name is Robin, middle initial R, last name 349 00:20:52,119 --> 00:20:53,480 Speaker 3: is means Coleman. 350 00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:58,199 Speaker 1: Unlike me, she's a certified expert on the topic of 351 00:20:58,240 --> 00:20:59,400 Speaker 1: black people and horror. 352 00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:04,320 Speaker 3: I am a professor at Northwestern University. One of my 353 00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:07,720 Speaker 3: claim to fames is that I'm the co author of 354 00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:11,239 Speaker 3: The Black Eyed Dies First and also the author of 355 00:21:11,359 --> 00:21:15,959 Speaker 3: Horror Noir, which was also turned into a documentary. And 356 00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:20,280 Speaker 3: perhaps the other thing that people know about me is 357 00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:24,880 Speaker 3: that I am not afraid to say Candyman five times in. 358 00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:29,520 Speaker 1: A mirror well, you are better than me because I 359 00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:32,200 Speaker 1: have held onto that I don't do the candyman thing. 360 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:35,040 Speaker 1: I don't do the bloody Mary thing. None of that 361 00:21:35,119 --> 00:21:37,480 Speaker 1: is within my wheelhouse. And I consider myself a person 362 00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:42,800 Speaker 1: who's pretty tolerant to horror, and I draw my limits somewhere. 363 00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:45,840 Speaker 1: So I guess all of that means that you're also 364 00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:47,360 Speaker 1: a horror fan yourself, right. 365 00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:52,159 Speaker 3: I am to write the books that I've written or 366 00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:56,600 Speaker 3: co authored with my fabulous co author Mark Harris, required 367 00:21:56,680 --> 00:22:01,760 Speaker 3: us to watch not just hundreds, but thousands of horror films, 368 00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:06,520 Speaker 3: and that's been a terrific crazy ride. 369 00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:11,200 Speaker 1: See a consummate professional, a woman dedicated to the enjoyment 370 00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:15,239 Speaker 1: and study of the craft. Okay, anyway, Katie, The thing is, 371 00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:18,320 Speaker 1: I wanted to talk to doctor Means Coleman because all 372 00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:20,879 Speaker 1: of this has been about me trying to figure out 373 00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:24,440 Speaker 1: why I had the emotional response I did. Even after 374 00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:26,879 Speaker 1: digging pretty deep into why the joke rubbed me the 375 00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:30,720 Speaker 1: wrong way, all of these conflicting thoughts were having one 376 00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:33,959 Speaker 1: big ass boss battle in my brain. I still couldn't 377 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:37,679 Speaker 1: reconcile all of the capital t truths buried in the jest. 378 00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:41,000 Speaker 1: Like sure, I feel this way about it. But it's 379 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:42,320 Speaker 1: a well known joke for a reason. 380 00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:45,399 Speaker 2: I think doctor Means Coleman is the perfect person to 381 00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:47,960 Speaker 2: have this conversation with. So I'm excited to see what 382 00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:49,880 Speaker 2: she has to say, and I hope y'all can get 383 00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:52,840 Speaker 2: down to the capital t truths of the matter. 384 00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:58,159 Speaker 1: Okay, back to our conversation. So it really stood out 385 00:22:58,160 --> 00:22:59,960 Speaker 1: to me when I read the first edition of your book, 386 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:03,280 Speaker 1: Hohor and war So in the beginning, there's this forward 387 00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:07,280 Speaker 1: by Steven Toreano Barry, and he talks about in that forward, 388 00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:10,600 Speaker 1: how there's this joke that goes around that has been 389 00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:13,560 Speaker 1: around for quite a while now that if somebody tells 390 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:14,960 Speaker 1: black people to leave. 391 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:16,240 Speaker 2: We're going to leave. 392 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:18,199 Speaker 1: In a horror movie, somebody says get out, We're going 393 00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:19,040 Speaker 1: to get out. 394 00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:20,399 Speaker 3: We won't be in the movie. 395 00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:24,080 Speaker 1: You won't see us. The movie wouldn't even exist if 396 00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:28,159 Speaker 1: it were based around us, you know, investigating the problem, 397 00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:31,520 Speaker 1: and he says in that forward he uses the phrase 398 00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:34,879 Speaker 1: that that joke was quote an off handed justification to 399 00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:38,800 Speaker 1: help explain that absence of black people in horror in 400 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:42,159 Speaker 1: the time before the nineteen seventies. It is such a 401 00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:45,600 Speaker 1: well known sentiment it's so prevalent that it that it 402 00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:47,720 Speaker 1: starts this whole journey through your book. So that says 403 00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:51,440 Speaker 1: something alone. So before we even begin getting into that context, 404 00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:54,320 Speaker 1: could you tell me about the first time that you 405 00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:55,920 Speaker 1: remember hearing that joke. 406 00:23:56,240 --> 00:24:00,560 Speaker 3: I love this question, and I would say that it's 407 00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:07,199 Speaker 3: a trope in popular culture, and where I think we 408 00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:10,480 Speaker 3: have a shared experience is that it isn't just that 409 00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:15,560 Speaker 3: we were introduced to that in popular culture, but sort 410 00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:21,000 Speaker 3: of real life black lived experience. They're that joke, that 411 00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:25,280 Speaker 3: trope that we now it's sort of gallows humor or 412 00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:27,560 Speaker 3: represent and I guess we'll talk about the ways it's 413 00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:33,040 Speaker 3: represented in movies, but that often what we see in 414 00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:38,359 Speaker 3: media comes out of real life experience, and that is 415 00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:43,639 Speaker 3: a necessary mode of survival for black people. You'll see 416 00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:46,720 Speaker 3: people sort of joke about it on the comedy stage, 417 00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:50,399 Speaker 3: but that's real. So on the comedy stage, outside of 418 00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:53,679 Speaker 3: the genre of horror, you'll see comedians say that, you know, 419 00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:57,159 Speaker 3: black people will be gathered somewhere in an auditorium or 420 00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:01,080 Speaker 3: at a party and somebody will are running, and that 421 00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:04,320 Speaker 3: black people are like, wait, wait are we running? Are running? 422 00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:09,399 Speaker 3: Everybody's running, everybody's got everybody runs right, no question. So 423 00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:13,080 Speaker 3: that comes out of a real moment of a necessity 424 00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:20,040 Speaker 3: around survival. Running to drama or trauma is never going 425 00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:23,640 Speaker 3: to be good for black people. So a real life 426 00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:26,679 Speaker 3: example is where you have a black person. There was 427 00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:29,760 Speaker 3: a shooting in a mall, uh, just a couple of 428 00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:36,359 Speaker 3: years ago, where a black male assumed a really heroic 429 00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:40,240 Speaker 3: position and sort of thwarted this mass shooting, and in 430 00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:44,399 Speaker 3: return for that, when police came in, they shot and 431 00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:49,440 Speaker 3: killed him right thinking he was the perpetrator. So there's 432 00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:55,800 Speaker 3: a necessity two for preservation, for real survival, to stay 433 00:25:55,840 --> 00:26:01,440 Speaker 3: away from these kinds of moments, right, these crisis moments, 434 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:08,600 Speaker 3: because we are often not looked at as hero or victim, 435 00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:11,520 Speaker 3: but as perpetrator, as. 436 00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:16,520 Speaker 1: Monstrous whenever we do go towards any situation, even if 437 00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:19,480 Speaker 1: that situation doesn't outwardly seem harmful in the first place, 438 00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:23,280 Speaker 1: and we still end up being the people who violence 439 00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:26,760 Speaker 1: is enacted against in the end. And yet and still 440 00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:31,240 Speaker 1: there is this inner conflict in me. I felt this 441 00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:33,400 Speaker 1: reaction to it, and where I was like, there are 442 00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:37,000 Speaker 1: so many moments in which we are the ones who 443 00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:40,359 Speaker 1: stand up, in which we do run to danger so 444 00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:41,919 Speaker 1: I was relating it to some of the things that 445 00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:45,480 Speaker 1: you talk about in your books about being this sacrificial 446 00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:50,680 Speaker 1: negro or being this fool, this cowardly fool who always 447 00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:53,200 Speaker 1: runs away from the danger. And so I think there's 448 00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:56,800 Speaker 1: this other end of the spectrum of that joke where 449 00:26:56,920 --> 00:27:01,399 Speaker 1: it has this implication that we are too fearful or 450 00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:02,240 Speaker 1: too cowardly. 451 00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:05,560 Speaker 3: So I think context matters. What I do in talking 452 00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:08,399 Speaker 3: about the horror genre is I make a clear distinction, 453 00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:11,680 Speaker 3: and it may be a little bit too on the nose, clear, 454 00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:18,120 Speaker 3: but a clear distinction between black horror and Blacks in horror. 455 00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:21,040 Speaker 3: And so I don't want to conflate the two in 456 00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:25,040 Speaker 3: this reaction. In Blacks in Horror, that's where you see 457 00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:29,359 Speaker 3: the sort of scared, shivering negro, right, the scared negro 458 00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:33,200 Speaker 3: trope that comes up that does the feats don't fail me. Now, 459 00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:35,760 Speaker 3: that's the kind of thing that bothers you. I think 460 00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:39,840 Speaker 3: that doesn't serve black people. That never cast us as smart, 461 00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:45,640 Speaker 3: as heroic, as problem solving that occurs in Blacks in Horror. 462 00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:48,480 Speaker 3: The other thing that you may see in Blacks in 463 00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:53,720 Speaker 3: Horror are these kinds of this white boogeyman in the basement, 464 00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:56,359 Speaker 3: and a black person isn't going to go down there 465 00:27:56,600 --> 00:28:01,000 Speaker 3: and investigate the white boogeyman in the basement. An important 466 00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:04,600 Speaker 3: sort of way that I'm talking about that there's the 467 00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:10,560 Speaker 3: specter of whiteness that we are contending with in that joke, right, 468 00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:16,240 Speaker 3: And so if there's whiteness also or non blackness in 469 00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:19,480 Speaker 3: a range of ways showing up, right, And you don't 470 00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:21,800 Speaker 3: have to be white to be invested in white supremacy. 471 00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:25,119 Speaker 3: So if there's sort of white supremacy showing up, that's 472 00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:28,120 Speaker 3: a danger. It isn't just going as you know, sort 473 00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:32,840 Speaker 3: of descending down the basement steps. The danger is that 474 00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:38,120 Speaker 3: blackness may be treated as monstrous, as other as dangerous, 475 00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:40,680 Speaker 3: and that can lead to the end of our lives. 476 00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:47,240 Speaker 3: Black horror, to correct it, black horror. That's not the 477 00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:51,960 Speaker 3: same sort of response or reaction. It's in black horror 478 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:55,560 Speaker 3: you see people be heroic. It's in black horror that 479 00:28:55,680 --> 00:29:01,120 Speaker 3: you see the discernment, the reasoning. The For example, Nia 480 00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:04,920 Speaker 3: Dacosta's Candy Man twenty twenty one, this sort of the 481 00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:10,440 Speaker 3: ending the spoiler alert where Brianna, she looks in the mirror, 482 00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:14,360 Speaker 3: she summons candy Man, and up until that point, that 483 00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:17,240 Speaker 3: person who looks in the mirror and summons Candy man, 484 00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:21,080 Speaker 3: they're going to be the victim. But she's bravely entering 485 00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:25,840 Speaker 3: into that space to do some real uncivil, critical problem solving. 486 00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:30,440 Speaker 3: I like using Brianna. That character is a contrast because 487 00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:34,640 Speaker 3: this is also the character who, when she's trying to 488 00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:38,600 Speaker 3: figure out what's going on, has a moment where she's 489 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:44,280 Speaker 3: literally looking down into a basement down a darkened stairway 490 00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:47,800 Speaker 3: and she says nope, and she you know, it's a 491 00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:53,040 Speaker 3: funny scene. She closes the door and walks away. That's 492 00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:57,640 Speaker 3: because she does not yet know what the monster is, right, 493 00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:01,360 Speaker 3: she doesn't know what's going on, and until she does 494 00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:04,960 Speaker 3: writes some amazing critical thinking on her part. Until she 495 00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:10,280 Speaker 3: does this investigation, understands the context, then she proceeds. There's 496 00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:13,520 Speaker 3: a real difference between the way black people are treated 497 00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:16,760 Speaker 3: and blacks in horror, right, which is this sort of 498 00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:20,920 Speaker 3: these odd objects or they cannot show up as heroic 499 00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:26,479 Speaker 3: because in black's in horror, it's the white character, often 500 00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:31,360 Speaker 3: the white male character, who is cast as hero. So 501 00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:34,680 Speaker 3: there's no way you can write a black character charging 502 00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:38,280 Speaker 3: in and saving the day, because it's the white character. Again, 503 00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:42,280 Speaker 3: often the white male character who is the hero black 504 00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:46,280 Speaker 3: horror does something very different when we think about what 505 00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:50,080 Speaker 3: heroism and problem solving looks like. I do think an 506 00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:53,440 Speaker 3: example of where you see, you know, sort of an 507 00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:58,840 Speaker 3: infamous example, right, this sacrificial Negro trope where you see 508 00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:01,760 Speaker 3: these characters who who are like, I'm going to run 509 00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:04,560 Speaker 3: into danger and by any means necessary, I'm going to 510 00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:07,760 Speaker 3: help out and save the day. Is you know, sort 511 00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:13,640 Speaker 3: of the infamous scene where Scotman Cruthers, the famed actor 512 00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:19,640 Speaker 3: Scotman Cruthers in the Shining. You know, he is on vacation, 513 00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:25,840 Speaker 3: like in Florida. He gets an sos psychically from you know, Danny, 514 00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:32,320 Speaker 3: this white kid, and he leaves his beachside vacation. He 515 00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:35,880 Speaker 3: puts on a coat, he books a ticket across country. 516 00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:40,240 Speaker 3: He does connecting flights. He does this in a snowstorm. 517 00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:43,240 Speaker 3: He goes as far as he can in his car, 518 00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:46,480 Speaker 3: and then he abandons the car, and then he rents 519 00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:49,640 Speaker 3: a snow cat. Like who's paying for all of this? 520 00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:53,600 Speaker 3: Then the brother gets in a snow cat and he 521 00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:57,120 Speaker 3: drives up the mountain and then he abandons the snow 522 00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:00,520 Speaker 3: cat and he gets out and he's trudging through and 523 00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:05,120 Speaker 3: the feats of snow chloral feats to walk through the 524 00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:10,120 Speaker 3: door to save this white family. And as soon as 525 00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:13,120 Speaker 3: he walks in the door, he gets an axe to 526 00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:16,360 Speaker 3: the chest. Now Black audiences are sitting in the theater 527 00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:21,080 Speaker 3: looking like, I'm skeptical here because in some ways you're saying, 528 00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:24,280 Speaker 3: homeboy couldn't see that axe coming. What is he thinking 529 00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:31,120 Speaker 3: running across country to do this. That's the sacrificial negro. 530 00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:35,600 Speaker 3: That's not his business. He has a family, right, This 531 00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:41,240 Speaker 3: is we're supposed to believe that he centered. This family 532 00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:47,720 Speaker 3: is his priority at the expense of an invisible black family, relatives, children, grandchildren, 533 00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:52,200 Speaker 3: right right. That's what running into that kind of danger 534 00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:55,440 Speaker 3: really means. When I say it's about black survival, it 535 00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:59,000 Speaker 3: means that we no longer have him. His family, who 536 00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:02,120 Speaker 3: doesn't even make this scre green, no longer has him 537 00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:05,480 Speaker 3: of you know, a girlfriend, a partner, friends, All of 538 00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:08,920 Speaker 3: that is denied by him running through the door. 539 00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:16,680 Speaker 1: It also devalues and portrays black people, in this specific case, 540 00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:20,440 Speaker 1: a black man as a person who devalues his connections 541 00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:21,280 Speaker 1: to his own family. 542 00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:25,800 Speaker 3: So the only correction there is that we think about 543 00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:29,000 Speaker 3: that in his relationship to blackness, because we're bringing that 544 00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:32,400 Speaker 3: meana making of a black lens. But remember that's a 545 00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:36,680 Speaker 3: blacks in horror film, which means that the writers they 546 00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:40,600 Speaker 3: weren't thinking, where is this brother's you know, sisters and 547 00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:43,760 Speaker 3: aunties and you know the siblings and all of that. 548 00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:47,440 Speaker 3: Where are his people? So they're not thinking that he's 549 00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:51,520 Speaker 3: absented himself. Right, this character didn't do it, But the 550 00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:55,520 Speaker 3: way to make him seem or appear heroic is to 551 00:33:55,600 --> 00:34:03,840 Speaker 3: be so sacrificing, so selfless in support of whiteness that 552 00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:06,760 Speaker 3: he would give up all of blackness to do it. 553 00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:11,800 Speaker 3: That's not that character that comes out of the imagination 554 00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:17,080 Speaker 3: of those who operate outside of a whole in full blackness. 555 00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:22,480 Speaker 1: How can we portray these black characters as hero is 556 00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:26,799 Speaker 1: going forward and keeping them in these nuanced portrayals? 557 00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:29,000 Speaker 3: So there are two things I think. The first is 558 00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:32,920 Speaker 3: the example I gave of like Brianna and Niadcosta's candy Man, 559 00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:36,200 Speaker 3: which is a contrast to Bernard Rose's candy Man of 560 00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:40,200 Speaker 3: nineteen ninety two, where in that candy Man, the black 561 00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:43,360 Speaker 3: folks were really disempowered and they were like, oh my gosh, 562 00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:46,360 Speaker 3: there's a monster here. And then the entire kind of 563 00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:51,200 Speaker 3: housing project. Cabrini Green turned to Helen, the white savior, 564 00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:55,880 Speaker 3: to come and solve the problem. Right, that's the difference 565 00:34:55,920 --> 00:35:01,360 Speaker 3: between blackhr where Brianna saves the day verse Black's in horror, 566 00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:05,239 Speaker 3: where there's Helen, who's the white protagonist who sort of 567 00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:10,000 Speaker 3: saves the day. What I think is a solution first 568 00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:12,839 Speaker 3: is that we need much more black horror, and that 569 00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:17,239 Speaker 3: is having that part of the genre, which I call 570 00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:22,640 Speaker 3: horror noir, more robustly represented. But it also requires a 571 00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:26,640 Speaker 3: much more diverse writer's room and people who are there 572 00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:31,239 Speaker 3: creating and imagining stories and talking about the ways that 573 00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:34,719 Speaker 3: black people show up, how black people show up in 574 00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:39,440 Speaker 3: black horror. You see all kinds of heroism. But I 575 00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:43,680 Speaker 3: also don't want to discount what that sort of we're 576 00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:47,959 Speaker 3: smart enough not to go their means. That doesn't mean 577 00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:51,600 Speaker 3: that we're the scared negro in a horror movie, whether 578 00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:55,680 Speaker 3: it's Black horror or Black's in horror. There is something 579 00:35:55,719 --> 00:36:00,640 Speaker 3: that is very smart and discerning about This isn't running 580 00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:04,680 Speaker 3: into a fire and saving baby kittens. This is in horror. 581 00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:09,560 Speaker 3: This is about charging in staring a monster in the eye, 582 00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:13,759 Speaker 3: to be slaughtered because horror is about the monster. That's 583 00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:18,160 Speaker 3: what horror films are about. And there's something that doctor 584 00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:22,880 Speaker 3: Barry is getting at when he says, we're like, Nope, 585 00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:26,319 Speaker 3: we're not doing that, which also means we're not gonna 586 00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:30,160 Speaker 3: be sacrificial Negro number two in a horror movie. 587 00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:34,600 Speaker 1: Today, you unlocked something for me, because I feel like 588 00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:38,759 Speaker 1: that became something that is very empowering. There is an 589 00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:41,680 Speaker 1: inherent pause in what you said. Instead of it being 590 00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:46,719 Speaker 1: something like us continually running to this joke because we 591 00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:49,040 Speaker 1: don't believe in ourselves to be able to face a thing, 592 00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:52,480 Speaker 1: It's more like we understand the power in our pause 593 00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:56,560 Speaker 1: and our ability to in a single moment, have this 594 00:36:56,680 --> 00:36:59,719 Speaker 1: risk assessment and have this moment where we can say, 595 00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:02,200 Speaker 1: I know the fears and dangers that I face that 596 00:37:02,239 --> 00:37:05,439 Speaker 1: are very real, and they're my choice is what path 597 00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:08,920 Speaker 1: do I take? So it's also a moment of I 598 00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:12,640 Speaker 1: guess a lot of self awareness and ability to assess 599 00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:14,480 Speaker 1: a moment and choose what to do in the next 600 00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:20,400 Speaker 1: rather than running quickly into something that could be life ending. 601 00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:25,080 Speaker 3: Survival for black people is the greatest gift, it's the 602 00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:30,440 Speaker 3: greatest contribution. That's what we want is the survival of blackness. 603 00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:32,879 Speaker 3: So yes, the pause is a powerful one. 604 00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:39,120 Speaker 1: So do you think that we should continue telling this joke? 605 00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:43,799 Speaker 3: So I'm reminded of a quote, and it's paraphrasing because 606 00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:45,920 Speaker 3: I don't think I have it perfectly right, But George 607 00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:50,239 Speaker 3: Bernard Shaw says, when a thing is funny, search for 608 00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:57,000 Speaker 3: a hidden truth. And this sort of humorous approach is 609 00:37:57,280 --> 00:38:01,480 Speaker 3: pointing to a truth. And I think that that is 610 00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:06,120 Speaker 3: one of many invaluable tools to remind us, both in 611 00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:10,560 Speaker 3: the real and in the imagined, what black people still 612 00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:16,200 Speaker 3: navigating in the US. I think people should love the 613 00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:19,640 Speaker 3: humor behind it. I think that there's something that's interesting 614 00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:24,040 Speaker 3: and reflexive about it, and it doesn't diminish black folks 615 00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:29,440 Speaker 3: or their sort of stature in society, or their discernment 616 00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:33,440 Speaker 3: or their heroism, but that it is really not so 617 00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:36,520 Speaker 3: much a reflection on blackness, but it is a reflection 618 00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:42,200 Speaker 3: on the dangers of whiteness and horror. And so shifting 619 00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:46,720 Speaker 3: that understanding to saying, Okay, what are we stepping back from? 620 00:38:47,239 --> 00:38:51,200 Speaker 3: Oh that danger right there, which we know we have 621 00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:57,640 Speaker 3: experienced centuries of danger right there. That's the importance of 622 00:38:57,680 --> 00:38:59,120 Speaker 3: what he's writing about. 623 00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:02,200 Speaker 1: Could you talk about any other examples of black people 624 00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:06,360 Speaker 1: not high tailing it out of there in a recent 625 00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:07,680 Speaker 1: movie that you've seen that you love. 626 00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:10,800 Speaker 3: Oh, there's a whole there's a whole genre of those movies, 627 00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:12,680 Speaker 3: and those are the black horror movies. 628 00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:13,400 Speaker 1: You know. 629 00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:17,759 Speaker 3: I have favorites. Jay Dillard's Sweetheart is you know where 630 00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:21,960 Speaker 3: you have a black woman who is the heroic person 631 00:39:22,080 --> 00:39:27,480 Speaker 3: who stares down the monster. Spoiler alert, right, I like 632 00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:33,759 Speaker 3: attack the block. John Boyega's character also one who is 633 00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:38,719 Speaker 3: you know, discerning. Sometimes he's not going headlong into the 634 00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:41,520 Speaker 3: monster and other times he's doing battle, right, But that's 635 00:39:41,719 --> 00:39:45,880 Speaker 3: what we expect of complex situations, and he ultimately stares 636 00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:49,040 Speaker 3: down the monster figures out a way another spoiler work 637 00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:53,200 Speaker 3: to do some annihilation of some bad stuff. So that 638 00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:57,440 Speaker 3: that is what black horror does, is that it treats 639 00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:02,439 Speaker 3: black intervention in a very different way, and we don't 640 00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:07,080 Speaker 3: always have to win, but it is a very different 641 00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:09,799 Speaker 3: treatment of the ways in which we show up. 642 00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:18,520 Speaker 1: Katie, I have to tell you, after speaking with Doctor 643 00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:22,319 Speaker 1: Means Coleman, I changed my mind. I went into this 644 00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:25,000 Speaker 1: already like wanting to retire this joke. 645 00:40:25,239 --> 00:40:26,319 Speaker 3: But I'm cool with it all. 646 00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:30,319 Speaker 1: Now, I hold all of these truths together, and it's complicated, 647 00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:32,960 Speaker 1: as our most things, but I'm at peace with that. 648 00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:36,880 Speaker 1: Be free y'all to resort to this joke a million 649 00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:40,879 Speaker 1: more times, because you know we will. And actually, thanks 650 00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:43,680 Speaker 1: to doctor Means Coleman, I feel free to not even 651 00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:46,200 Speaker 1: think of it as this stale joke that I've heard 652 00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:49,680 Speaker 1: so many times before. But instead I get to think 653 00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:52,719 Speaker 1: of it as this kind of wise adage born of 654 00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:56,280 Speaker 1: our breath of experience, concern for our own and others 655 00:40:56,320 --> 00:41:01,479 Speaker 1: well being, and our beautiful propensity for survival and extreme circumstances. 656 00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:05,560 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, the gross I did not think I 657 00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:08,799 Speaker 2: would see the day. And I'm glad that you got 658 00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:11,160 Speaker 2: to talk to doctor Means Coleman because she really broke 659 00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:14,799 Speaker 2: it down. Oh and y'all don't forget to support doctor 660 00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:15,360 Speaker 2: Means Coleman. 661 00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:21,480 Speaker 3: You can follow me on Twitter at Means Coleman. Grab 662 00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:25,880 Speaker 3: a copy of The Black Eyed Dice, first co authored 663 00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:29,680 Speaker 3: with Mark Harris, and if you want a still deeper, 664 00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:33,600 Speaker 3: scholarly dive, grab a copy of Horror and a War, 665 00:41:33,719 --> 00:41:36,960 Speaker 3: the second edition. Both books came out this year twenty 666 00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:39,680 Speaker 3: twenty three. 667 00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:46,960 Speaker 2: Eaves It's My favorite part of the show roll credits, 668 00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:52,640 Speaker 2: where we give credit to a person, place, thing, idea 669 00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:55,880 Speaker 2: that we've encountered during the week that you know, we 670 00:41:55,920 --> 00:41:57,800 Speaker 2: just want to give them some props, give them a 671 00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:02,920 Speaker 2: little shout out. So this week, I would like to 672 00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:09,720 Speaker 2: give credit to the Shrine of the Black Madonna in Atlanta, Georgia, 673 00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:13,799 Speaker 2: the West End. It's known for being one of the 674 00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:18,160 Speaker 2: first churches that showed Mary Jesus' mom is a black woman. 675 00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:21,400 Speaker 2: They've been so helpful for me while I'm writing my 676 00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:25,319 Speaker 2: book about black bookstores. They're the nicest people and it's 677 00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:27,880 Speaker 2: just really nice to have, you know, older black folks 678 00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:31,839 Speaker 2: like looking out for you, helping you on your path 679 00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:34,719 Speaker 2: whatever you're doing, and being like excited for you. So 680 00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:38,000 Speaker 2: shout out to all the folks at the Shrine of 681 00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:41,120 Speaker 2: the Black Madonna. They also have a bookstore connected to 682 00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:44,480 Speaker 2: the church, So if you're ever in Atlanta, hit them up. 683 00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:46,960 Speaker 2: Who do you want to give credit to? Who are what? 684 00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:47,520 Speaker 3: So? 685 00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:51,120 Speaker 1: I would like to give credit to black people who 686 00:42:51,160 --> 00:42:56,360 Speaker 1: write horror, black people who make horror films, black people 687 00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:59,880 Speaker 1: who are invested in horror content and thinking about horror content. 688 00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:02,000 Speaker 2: We'll see you next week. 689 00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:04,160 Speaker 1: And In the meantime, we are going to watch some 690 00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:07,680 Speaker 1: horror and try our best not to yell at the 691 00:43:07,719 --> 00:43:09,000 Speaker 1: screen the whole time. 692 00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:11,560 Speaker 2: Now you know that's impossible, you Right. 693 00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:22,280 Speaker 1: On Theme is a production of iHeartRadio and Fairweather Friends Media. 694 00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:25,960 Speaker 1: This episode was written by Eves, Jeffco and Katie Mitchell. 695 00:43:26,320 --> 00:43:29,759 Speaker 1: It was edited and produced by Tari Harrison. Follow us 696 00:43:29,840 --> 00:43:33,040 Speaker 1: on Instagram at on Theme Show. You can also send 697 00:43:33,120 --> 00:43:36,600 Speaker 1: us an email at hello at on Theme dot show. 698 00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:42,120 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 699 00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:45,920 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. 700 00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:53,040 Speaker 2: Do you think you would recognized someone that looks just 701 00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:56,600 Speaker 2: like you know, I thought that's what you guys stopped cowering. 702 00:43:57,840 --> 00:43:59,640 Speaker 1: Well, some people just freeze, you know. 703 00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:05,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, I would probably the same thing. I would probably 704 00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:05,839 Speaker 2: just die. 705 00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:09,560 Speaker 1: Oh my god, No, you wouldn't 706 00:44:10,239 --> 00:44:11,080 Speaker 2: Have I said this before.