1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:07,760 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ethan Nadelman, and this is Psychoactive, a production 2 00:00:07,800 --> 00:00:11,600 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. Psychoactive is the 3 00:00:11,640 --> 00:00:15,040 Speaker 1: show where we talk about all things drugs. But any 4 00:00:15,160 --> 00:00:18,760 Speaker 1: views expressed here do not represent those of I Heeart Media, 5 00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:23,480 Speaker 1: Protozoa Pictures, or their executives and employees. Indeed, Heed, as 6 00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:26,400 Speaker 1: an inveterate contrarian, I can tell you they may not 7 00:00:26,560 --> 00:00:30,760 Speaker 1: even represent my own and nothing contained in this show 8 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:33,680 Speaker 1: should be used his medical advice or encouragement to use 9 00:00:33,800 --> 00:00:45,640 Speaker 1: any type of drug. Today's episode is really quite remarkable. U. 10 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:47,960 Speaker 1: First of all, it's because of who our guest is. 11 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:50,680 Speaker 1: It's not often I'm going to be having former presidents 12 00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:54,680 Speaker 1: on this show. And Juan Manuel Santos was the President 13 00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:59,480 Speaker 1: of Columbia for eight years. He also won the Nobel 14 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:03,640 Speaker 1: Piece rise back in sixteen for his very courageous work 15 00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:07,399 Speaker 1: trying to bring and successfully bringing a long civil war 16 00:01:07,440 --> 00:01:10,840 Speaker 1: in Columbia, involving the far to a successful land. And 17 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:14,440 Speaker 1: he's been outspoken on issues the environment and free speech. 18 00:01:14,480 --> 00:01:18,119 Speaker 1: So there's so many reasons I've admired President Santos over 19 00:01:18,160 --> 00:01:21,160 Speaker 1: all these years. And one thing he did when he 20 00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:24,960 Speaker 1: stepped down just shortly after. In twenty eighteen, he joined 21 00:01:25,319 --> 00:01:29,399 Speaker 1: a very distinguished group called the Global Commission on Drug Policy, 22 00:01:29,440 --> 00:01:32,160 Speaker 1: which is a group of former presidents and other world 23 00:01:32,280 --> 00:01:35,000 Speaker 1: leaders who have decided the war on drugs is doing 24 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:37,880 Speaker 1: a lot more harm than good. Half of its members 25 00:01:37,959 --> 00:01:39,880 Speaker 1: of its two days of members or sol our former 26 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:43,360 Speaker 1: Presidents Kofe and Nan the former head of the United Nations, 27 00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:45,280 Speaker 1: used to be on it till his death. George Schultz 28 00:01:45,319 --> 00:01:47,960 Speaker 1: and Paul Voker, the American Statesmen, were on it till 29 00:01:47,960 --> 00:01:52,720 Speaker 1: their recent passing. But a remarkable group. So President Santo's welcome. 30 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:56,200 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining me. Thank you, Ethan, 31 00:01:56,280 --> 00:01:58,760 Speaker 1: and I'm very very glad to be here with you. 32 00:01:59,680 --> 00:02:02,120 Speaker 1: We've on each other for some years and I'm very 33 00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:04,960 Speaker 1: glad to participate in your program. Thank you. Yes, I 34 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:08,000 Speaker 1: we we had a really very interesting meeting for me 35 00:02:08,080 --> 00:02:10,880 Speaker 1: back in twelve when things were really heating up, and 36 00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:13,359 Speaker 1: I visited you in your office in Bogata and we 37 00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:16,480 Speaker 1: had a frank conversation about the developments then. But I 38 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:20,280 Speaker 1: want to start off by asking you first. You joined 39 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:23,520 Speaker 1: the Global Commission a few years ago. Tell me why 40 00:02:23,639 --> 00:02:25,400 Speaker 1: you did that and why you made that one of 41 00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:29,400 Speaker 1: your priorities after leaving office. Well, I come from a 42 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:33,560 Speaker 1: country which perhaps is the country that has suffered most 43 00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:40,679 Speaker 1: in this world War on drugs, Colombia. For years, for decades, 44 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:47,000 Speaker 1: I have been fighting this war, and we have sacrificed 45 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:51,359 Speaker 1: our best leaders, are best journalists, are best judges at 46 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:55,600 Speaker 1: a terrible cost. And we are still the number one 47 00:02:55,760 --> 00:03:00,679 Speaker 1: exporter of cocaine to the world. Marks and my experience 48 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:05,520 Speaker 1: fighting drugs suffered sort of an evolution. I was a 49 00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:10,679 Speaker 1: very hardliner. I was Minister of Defense before being president. 50 00:03:11,520 --> 00:03:19,080 Speaker 1: We sprayed the coca plantations, We interdicted many, many thousands 51 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:23,480 Speaker 1: of tons of drugs. We went after the money of 52 00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:27,520 Speaker 1: the drug traffickers, We went after the consumers, and we 53 00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:31,320 Speaker 1: went after the peasants who were growing mariguana and the 54 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:37,120 Speaker 1: coca plants. And we did that with tremendous intensity, with 55 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:40,600 Speaker 1: the help of the US. The US provided funds and 56 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:48,240 Speaker 1: provided airplanes and provided helicopters, and we continued to have 57 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:52,200 Speaker 1: the problem. The same thing has happened to the world. 58 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:58,120 Speaker 1: We declared university the War a Drugs in the United 59 00:03:58,200 --> 00:04:01,840 Speaker 1: Nations and President Nixon, and we still have the problem. 60 00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:05,920 Speaker 1: So I started to learn that we were doing the 61 00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:09,200 Speaker 1: wrong thing. I call it like in a static bicycle. 62 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:11,680 Speaker 1: You pedal, you pedal, you pedal, and you look to 63 00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 1: the right, you look to the left, and you're in 64 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:18,320 Speaker 1: the same place. So a war that has been going 65 00:04:18,400 --> 00:04:21,680 Speaker 1: on for fifty years that has not been one. It's 66 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:24,320 Speaker 1: a war that has been lost. So you have to 67 00:04:24,440 --> 00:04:27,679 Speaker 1: change your strategy. You have to change your mind frame. 68 00:04:28,240 --> 00:04:32,240 Speaker 1: And so I started two change my mind frame. And 69 00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:37,400 Speaker 1: now I am convinced that the only way to control 70 00:04:38,279 --> 00:04:45,800 Speaker 1: the negative consequences of drug trafficking is by regulating and legalizing. 71 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:50,320 Speaker 1: That's the way to take out the money from the 72 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:55,080 Speaker 1: hands of the mafias and use it to fight the 73 00:04:55,120 --> 00:04:59,640 Speaker 1: consumption of drugs, but with an approach of a public 74 00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:05,040 Speaker 1: health issue. I also used very often in anecdotes that 75 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:08,600 Speaker 1: I read in one of the recent biographies of Western Churchill. 76 00:05:09,279 --> 00:05:14,400 Speaker 1: Back in the twenties, during Prohibition, Churchill went through Canada 77 00:05:14,640 --> 00:05:19,080 Speaker 1: and landed in California, and he asked for a drink 78 00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:22,280 Speaker 1: and they said to him, no, no, Mr Churchill, this 79 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:26,360 Speaker 1: is prohibited here in the United States. And with that 80 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:30,120 Speaker 1: tremendous sense of humor that he had, he said, how 81 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:35,839 Speaker 1: strange this country is these huge profits that come out 82 00:05:35,880 --> 00:05:39,400 Speaker 1: of the sale of liquor, you give them to the mafia's. 83 00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:42,880 Speaker 1: In my country, we give it to the treasury. That 84 00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:47,159 Speaker 1: encapsulates what I think has to be done in the 85 00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:51,200 Speaker 1: war on drugs. And in my country, I have seized 86 00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:54,800 Speaker 1: the largest amount of coke and marijuana in the history. 87 00:05:55,480 --> 00:06:00,360 Speaker 1: I have extradited the largest number of column this to 88 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:05,280 Speaker 1: the US in history, more than fourteen hundred Colombians extradited 89 00:06:05,320 --> 00:06:09,120 Speaker 1: to the United States. And I am now convinced that 90 00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:13,479 Speaker 1: all this sacrifice, all this effort is in vain because 91 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:21,279 Speaker 1: we still today have the same problem as we had five, ten, twenty, 92 00:06:21,560 --> 00:06:24,440 Speaker 1: or thirty years ago. So we have to change. So 93 00:06:24,640 --> 00:06:27,160 Speaker 1: with that introduction, now I'm going to put you just 94 00:06:27,320 --> 00:06:31,040 Speaker 1: a little bit on the spot. Person. Of course, so um, 95 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:33,440 Speaker 1: you know, the Global Commission, I just think has done 96 00:06:33,440 --> 00:06:36,560 Speaker 1: an extraordinary job of opening up the debate and taking 97 00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:40,240 Speaker 1: bold positions in favor of legal regulation. And some people 98 00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:42,840 Speaker 1: will say, well, you know, all these prestigious presidents, why 99 00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:44,800 Speaker 1: don't they just do the right thing when they were 100 00:06:44,839 --> 00:06:47,599 Speaker 1: in office. Now they're coming around to it, and of course, 101 00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:50,160 Speaker 1: you know, I think it's better that they do it 102 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:53,720 Speaker 1: even after office. Than just continuing to pretend that having 103 00:06:53,760 --> 00:06:56,000 Speaker 1: done what they did was right. But the other thing 104 00:06:56,160 --> 00:06:58,400 Speaker 1: is that many of the members of the Global Commission 105 00:06:58,560 --> 00:07:01,760 Speaker 1: say what you just said, which is well, I was 106 00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:04,440 Speaker 1: believed in the war on drugs when I was president, 107 00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:07,640 Speaker 1: and then I came to see it didn't work. But 108 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:10,880 Speaker 1: I'll tell you something funny. So one of your predecessors, 109 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:15,360 Speaker 1: Caesar Gavaria, right, former Colombian president on the Commission, and 110 00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:19,080 Speaker 1: I remember back in nineteen ninety when he was the 111 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:22,200 Speaker 1: president elect, and there's a meeting organized for him in 112 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:24,960 Speaker 1: Miami with a bunch of drug policy experts, and I'm 113 00:07:25,040 --> 00:07:28,240 Speaker 1: part of that and I push it on the issue 114 00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:33,280 Speaker 1: of drug legalization regulation. And first he dismisses me, blows 115 00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:35,840 Speaker 1: me off, etcetera. And finally he looks at me and 116 00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:39,880 Speaker 1: he goes eaton. Of course, I agree that legalization is 117 00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:43,080 Speaker 1: is in my country's interests. But the day I say 118 00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:46,480 Speaker 1: the word, the next day the US invades me by wish. 119 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:48,480 Speaker 1: I think he meant they would cut off coffee exports, 120 00:07:48,800 --> 00:07:50,400 Speaker 1: but I mean there was a sense in which he 121 00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:53,080 Speaker 1: knew better, and just to finish this off, you know, 122 00:07:53,320 --> 00:07:57,520 Speaker 1: in there was a big United Nations General Assembly special 123 00:07:57,640 --> 00:08:01,360 Speaker 1: Session on drugs, and it was a crazy event. They 124 00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:04,120 Speaker 1: were talking about a drug free world, We can do it, 125 00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:07,440 Speaker 1: all this crazy rhetoric, and so I drafted a public 126 00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:10,520 Speaker 1: letter to Kofi Anan who was in the Secretary General, 127 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:14,120 Speaker 1: and it basically called for a major reform, major rethinking. 128 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:17,040 Speaker 1: Didn't call for the legalization, but big rethinking. And we 129 00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:19,680 Speaker 1: got a half a dozen people from Columbia to sign 130 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:22,200 Speaker 1: that letter, and one of them was the former President 131 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:27,000 Speaker 1: edincour Another one was his foreign minister, Augusta Ramirez Ocampo, 132 00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:30,960 Speaker 1: and another one was a part time politician who was 133 00:08:31,040 --> 00:08:35,200 Speaker 1: then running a good Governance foundation named Juan Manuel Santos. 134 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:37,960 Speaker 1: So I don't know if you remember this, President Santos, 135 00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:40,920 Speaker 1: but you signed that letter back in ninety eight saying 136 00:08:40,960 --> 00:08:44,240 Speaker 1: the drug war is failing and it cannot work. So 137 00:08:45,880 --> 00:08:49,720 Speaker 1: I am proud to say I don't want to sound presumptuous, 138 00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:53,680 Speaker 1: but I was the only head of state that, as 139 00:08:53,760 --> 00:08:56,880 Speaker 1: head of state back in the year two thousand and twelve, 140 00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:01,720 Speaker 1: started to talk about league and station started to talk 141 00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:05,839 Speaker 1: about changing the war on drugs. And I found a 142 00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:10,040 Speaker 1: good partner. I found President Obama that said to me, 143 00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 1: you know you are right, And so I said, why 144 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:16,480 Speaker 1: don't we start, because this is an issue that one 145 00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:21,199 Speaker 1: country by itself cannot solve. This has to be an 146 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:26,679 Speaker 1: international issue. Why don't we start trying to assemble a 147 00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:30,800 Speaker 1: special General Assembly in the United Nations that would address 148 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:35,000 Speaker 1: this problem. But before that, we started to work at 149 00:09:35,040 --> 00:09:39,400 Speaker 1: a regional level. This started in the America Summit that 150 00:09:39,600 --> 00:09:42,199 Speaker 1: was held in Cartagena in the year two thousand and twelve, 151 00:09:42,440 --> 00:09:45,079 Speaker 1: and I announced it publicly that we were going to 152 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:49,240 Speaker 1: start a crusade to change the war on drugs. In 153 00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:53,760 Speaker 1: a General Assembly of the o S, by unanimous vote, 154 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:59,559 Speaker 1: they supported the call for a special General Assembly of 155 00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:04,760 Speaker 1: the United Nations to address this issue. What happened, I 156 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:08,480 Speaker 1: underestimated the reaction that we were going to find from 157 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:14,000 Speaker 1: other areas of the world, the Chinese, the Russians, the 158 00:10:14,120 --> 00:10:18,079 Speaker 1: Middle Eastern countries, they were all very much opposed. So 159 00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:21,959 Speaker 1: unfortunately this General Assembly, in a way, it was a failure. 160 00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:25,679 Speaker 1: We managed to make a little progress of introducing the 161 00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:28,280 Speaker 1: public health as an issue of human rights is an issue, 162 00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:32,800 Speaker 1: But what I wanted was the United Nations to change 163 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:37,319 Speaker 1: the paradigm, and we failed. And why I have a 164 00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:42,360 Speaker 1: theory and my own experience when President Garria told you 165 00:10:42,840 --> 00:10:46,000 Speaker 1: they would crucify me in my country. He was right, 166 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:50,360 Speaker 1: not only because at that time the US was with 167 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:54,800 Speaker 1: the policy of hardline punitive treatment to the world drugs, 168 00:10:55,440 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 1: but also because this is a very sensitive political issue 169 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:04,760 Speaker 1: and very easy to manipulate. What happened when I started 170 00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:10,480 Speaker 1: talking about legalization in Colombia, my political adversaries, among them 171 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:15,040 Speaker 1: the former president to really started to tell all the 172 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:20,360 Speaker 1: housewives that I was proposing to poison their kids with drugs. 173 00:11:21,120 --> 00:11:25,040 Speaker 1: But that's what's going to be the consequences of my proposal. 174 00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:29,120 Speaker 1: I used to go to different assemblies and the women 175 00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:31,600 Speaker 1: were furious, why do why do you want to poison 176 00:11:31,679 --> 00:11:33,679 Speaker 1: my kids? And I said what do you mean? And 177 00:11:33,760 --> 00:11:36,880 Speaker 1: said why do you want to legalize drugs? And it 178 00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:40,120 Speaker 1: was very interesting because I said, okay, let's let's talk 179 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:43,520 Speaker 1: about it. And I I asked many of them, listen 180 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:47,720 Speaker 1: to me. You are a mother, and if your kid 181 00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:53,719 Speaker 1: it's caught with drugs, would you prefer your son or 182 00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:57,920 Speaker 1: daughter to go to jail or to go to an 183 00:11:57,960 --> 00:12:02,040 Speaker 1: institution to rehabilitate her or him if they are addicts? 184 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:09,240 Speaker 1: Said the second rehabilitation, and I said, that's precisely what 185 00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:12,800 Speaker 1: I'm proposing, and they said, ah, why don't you explain 186 00:12:12,920 --> 00:12:17,240 Speaker 1: that a bit more? Now I understand. But the immediate 187 00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:23,160 Speaker 1: reaction for many people, the assuming a hardline position is 188 00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:27,000 Speaker 1: very popular. Let's kill the dog traffickers, let's hang them, 189 00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:31,280 Speaker 1: let's crucify, and everybody applaudse. The other issue, it's much 190 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:36,199 Speaker 1: more difficult because it's another type of leadership. It's the 191 00:12:36,280 --> 00:12:40,560 Speaker 1: same issent as making war and making peace. Making war, 192 00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:44,120 Speaker 1: what type of leadership do you need? You need a 193 00:12:44,240 --> 00:12:49,719 Speaker 1: leadership that is vertical. You give orders, you rally the 194 00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:54,959 Speaker 1: forces around you, You satinize and accuse your adversary, and 195 00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:59,440 Speaker 1: so you're a good leader. Making war. Making peace needs 196 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:04,400 Speaker 1: a really different types of leadership, more horizontal. Instead of 197 00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:09,160 Speaker 1: giving orders, you have to persuade, you have to educate. 198 00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:13,600 Speaker 1: And for example in the peace process, that I had 199 00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:21,199 Speaker 1: persuaded a mother to forgive the people who raped and 200 00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:25,319 Speaker 1: killed their daughter. Is very difficult, but it's the type 201 00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:28,599 Speaker 1: of leadership that you need to change the paradigm in 202 00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:31,520 Speaker 1: the world drugs and you have to persevere. And we're 203 00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:36,200 Speaker 1: making progress. We're making progress. You see in the United States, 204 00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:40,199 Speaker 1: which had the most hard life position, many of the 205 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:43,280 Speaker 1: states in the United States have the matter one I legalized, 206 00:13:43,559 --> 00:13:46,199 Speaker 1: and you go to Europe and they're more and more 207 00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:49,679 Speaker 1: convinced that this is the way to go, and we 208 00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:53,800 Speaker 1: need to persevere and hopefully accelerate the work we're doing, 209 00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:58,000 Speaker 1: for example, in the World Commission on Drugs. Yeah, I mean, 210 00:13:58,040 --> 00:14:01,240 Speaker 1: I'll tell you, President, I was really following what you 211 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:04,559 Speaker 1: were doing and saying back then very closely, and I 212 00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:09,280 Speaker 1: was extraordinarily impressed because I knew already back then that 213 00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:12,840 Speaker 1: you were thinking along these lines and we're looking for opportunities. 214 00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:15,079 Speaker 1: And I remember a few months before I saw you 215 00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:18,040 Speaker 1: in your office, I went to see President Calderon in 216 00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:21,240 Speaker 1: Mexico in his office, and you know, here he is 217 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:25,040 Speaker 1: leading this bigjor war on drugs, crematical violence, taking on 218 00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:28,800 Speaker 1: the narcos. But I also know that he had been 219 00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:31,640 Speaker 1: saying some things like maybe we need to look at 220 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:36,000 Speaker 1: alternatives to the prohibitionist approach. And then that summit that 221 00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:39,440 Speaker 1: you described and cart ahead of the Americans. How you 222 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:44,040 Speaker 1: handled that so beautifully, giving Auto Perez, the Guatemalan former 223 00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:47,720 Speaker 1: general president, a chance to present, then giving President Obama 224 00:14:47,960 --> 00:14:50,560 Speaker 1: a chance to respond, and thereby show there was some 225 00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:53,640 Speaker 1: opening of space so I thought you were really being 226 00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:57,280 Speaker 1: masterful in moving this forward in the midst of everything 227 00:14:57,360 --> 00:15:01,040 Speaker 1: else that was going on. Because it's such a sensitive issue, 228 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:04,400 Speaker 1: and people who are in power, the first thing they 229 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:06,720 Speaker 1: want to do is rock the boat. If there's a 230 00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:11,240 Speaker 1: danger that the boat right capsites, and these type of issues, 231 00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:16,160 Speaker 1: it's better to not address them, especially when when you 232 00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:20,320 Speaker 1: are also dependent on other countries. Is one of the 233 00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:24,120 Speaker 1: circumstances that we have to live with is that since 234 00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:28,560 Speaker 1: this is a multinational problem, it's a traffic that is 235 00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:33,320 Speaker 1: multinational world. You need a multinational solution. And that is 236 00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:38,120 Speaker 1: why people in power sort of are reluctant to start 237 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:41,800 Speaker 1: the process of changing. But fortunately we have more and 238 00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:45,000 Speaker 1: more people that have realized this is the way to go. 239 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:49,080 Speaker 1: It's almost because, in a way, the situation of Columbia 240 00:15:49,240 --> 00:15:52,600 Speaker 1: or Mexico or Guatemala or so many other countries is 241 00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:55,480 Speaker 1: being stuck between a rock and a hard place. Right 242 00:15:55,520 --> 00:15:58,440 Speaker 1: on the one hand, a global illegal commodities market in 243 00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:00,720 Speaker 1: which you are in the middle and there's no way 244 00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:04,440 Speaker 1: to really prohibit it effectively, and another hand, these massive 245 00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:08,440 Speaker 1: political pressures both domestically and internationally. And I remember like 246 00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:12,000 Speaker 1: one of the options was almost like imagining for Guatemala 247 00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:15,200 Speaker 1: in this case, if we could only build a pipeline, 248 00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:19,000 Speaker 1: right so that all the cocaine coming out of Columbia 249 00:16:19,560 --> 00:16:23,320 Speaker 1: going through Central America could essentially go through a Guatemalan 250 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:26,840 Speaker 1: pipeline pop out the other end without all the corruption 251 00:16:26,920 --> 00:16:29,000 Speaker 1: and all the black market, and maybe they could just 252 00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:31,760 Speaker 1: tax it. But of course that was just a hypothetical 253 00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:36,000 Speaker 1: and something that was a political and possibility. We'll be 254 00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:46,600 Speaker 1: talking more after we hear this ad. When I look 255 00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:49,640 Speaker 1: at Columbia, I mean Columbia really. I guess if you 256 00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:51,840 Speaker 1: look at all the countries in the world that have 257 00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:56,040 Speaker 1: been highly associated with drug trafficking and drug murders and 258 00:16:56,120 --> 00:16:59,960 Speaker 1: drug crime and drug politics, why is drugs in Columbia 259 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:02,960 Speaker 1: is so fundamentally caught up with modern Columbia history over 260 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:06,200 Speaker 1: the last fifty years. Why do you think, Well, I 261 00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:09,920 Speaker 1: think it's a combination of how we have a great 262 00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:14,880 Speaker 1: entrepreneurs We have an ideal country from the geography point 263 00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:19,680 Speaker 1: of view for marijuana and coca We became because of 264 00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:24,960 Speaker 1: our special circumstances producers of marijuana and of cocaine, and 265 00:17:25,560 --> 00:17:31,280 Speaker 1: the geography helped very much to expand the production and 266 00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:34,600 Speaker 1: we had this war with the farc with the gorillas, 267 00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:40,639 Speaker 1: and the gorillas controlled huge amounts of territory and they 268 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:42,879 Speaker 1: benefit from the drug trafficking. They said that they were 269 00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:45,960 Speaker 1: not drop traffickers, but they taxed the drug traffickers and 270 00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:50,200 Speaker 1: they financed their war with the proceeds of drug trafficking. 271 00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:55,400 Speaker 1: So it's a combination of different circumstances. And they say 272 00:17:55,480 --> 00:18:00,240 Speaker 1: that the way that we started exporting the first exports 273 00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:03,320 Speaker 1: of drugs and Colombia was marijuana from a region called 274 00:18:03,359 --> 00:18:06,000 Speaker 1: the Sierra Nevada Santa Marta, which is a beautiful region, 275 00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:11,480 Speaker 1: and that a Swedish ship arrived in the border Santa 276 00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:15,640 Speaker 1: Marta full of American sailors that had been in Vietnam 277 00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:19,640 Speaker 1: and that they they have heard of this Santa Marta gold, 278 00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:21,399 Speaker 1: which was the best money one and the girl in 279 00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:25,480 Speaker 1: the world. And they asked somebody there, do you have 280 00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:28,560 Speaker 1: money Juanna Santa Marca. Of course, what do you need? 281 00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:31,000 Speaker 1: It said, can you bring me a pack? And they 282 00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:33,840 Speaker 1: brought it back and he was going to pay ten 283 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:36,560 Speaker 1: dollars and they said, don't know, it's tempestos. He said, 284 00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:41,800 Speaker 1: is that cheap? So they bought all the production put 285 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:44,920 Speaker 1: in the Swedish ship, and the legend says, this is 286 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:48,400 Speaker 1: the first big export of money iguana, and that part 287 00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:51,399 Speaker 1: of the Columbia, that's the part where previously during the 288 00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:55,560 Speaker 1: Spanish and the British, the pirates used to be very 289 00:18:55,640 --> 00:18:58,560 Speaker 1: much present. So there was a culture of contraband there, 290 00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:04,120 Speaker 1: and so the marijuana traffic became more and more important. 291 00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:08,760 Speaker 1: And suddenly from another part of Colombia called Medagan, where 292 00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:14,080 Speaker 1: our industry grew. Because they are very effective entrepreneurs, they 293 00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:16,760 Speaker 1: started to discover that there was also a market in 294 00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:20,879 Speaker 1: the US, in Los Angeles, in New York for cocaine. 295 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:25,920 Speaker 1: The coca plantations were in Bolivia and in Peru, and 296 00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:30,920 Speaker 1: they came through Colombia. They had some laboratories and were exported. 297 00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:35,200 Speaker 1: But they found out that a kilo of cocaine was 298 00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:38,760 Speaker 1: much more profitable than the king a kilo of marijuana. 299 00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:42,520 Speaker 1: But the logistics of taking a kilo of coca and 300 00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:45,080 Speaker 1: a kido iguana to the United States market with the same. 301 00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:49,200 Speaker 1: So they started switching or adding of the roots that 302 00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:53,119 Speaker 1: they had in the marijuana exports the cocaine, and that 303 00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:55,800 Speaker 1: grew and grew and grew, and what the what the 304 00:19:55,880 --> 00:19:59,000 Speaker 1: bodon was saying to you, the Central American countries became 305 00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:04,600 Speaker 1: sort of places to export to those countries and then 306 00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:09,200 Speaker 1: re export and that was a great business. And that 307 00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:14,040 Speaker 1: also contamidated the mafia's there, the criminal bands there, the 308 00:20:14,119 --> 00:20:17,880 Speaker 1: corruption there, and the problem they have right now all 309 00:20:17,920 --> 00:20:20,359 Speaker 1: of Central America is huge. Well, there was also you 310 00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:22,840 Speaker 1: left out one drug. I mean, there was a period, 311 00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:26,439 Speaker 1: I think right before you became president in two thousand 312 00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:30,399 Speaker 1: and ten all of the world right was getting their 313 00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:33,520 Speaker 1: heroin from Afghanistan, but the United States most of it 314 00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:36,960 Speaker 1: was coming from Columbia for about a decade until Mexico 315 00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:40,320 Speaker 1: displaced it. And I was curious. I never quite understood that. 316 00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:43,800 Speaker 1: Was it just that the Mexican traffickers were decided they'd 317 00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:45,920 Speaker 1: rather just grow it themselves and ship it and cut 318 00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:49,639 Speaker 1: out the Colombians Or was there actually a successful suppression effort. 319 00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:52,520 Speaker 1: Was it a simple market dynamics and lower costs of 320 00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:57,920 Speaker 1: production in Mexico. I remember, I remember that the early 321 00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:02,320 Speaker 1: part of my government, the police took me to a 322 00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:06,720 Speaker 1: place in the south of Colombia to eradicate supposedly the 323 00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:10,240 Speaker 1: last hector of Amapola in Colombia. I did that, and 324 00:21:10,359 --> 00:21:13,480 Speaker 1: I showed the flower and I said, this is the 325 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:17,320 Speaker 1: last actor. Well it wasn't the last, and as long 326 00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:20,720 Speaker 1: as you have the demand, you will have supply. But yes, 327 00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:25,639 Speaker 1: this very effective suppression. Because the productional Polo was very 328 00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:30,520 Speaker 1: much concentrated, and because the gorillas did not control that region, 329 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:35,119 Speaker 1: we were able to be more effective. But immediately, immediately 330 00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:39,359 Speaker 1: the balloon effect, they went to Mexico, and Mexico was 331 00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:41,919 Speaker 1: much closer to the US, so they became much more 332 00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:47,720 Speaker 1: efficient in providing heroin than Columbia. Well, now there's something 333 00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:52,119 Speaker 1: else interesting and actually very complimentary about Colombia, which is 334 00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:55,719 Speaker 1: obviously Peru has gone through terrible problems. Right, they had 335 00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:58,800 Speaker 1: a shining past Centro Luminoso gorilla group, not unlike the 336 00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:02,720 Speaker 1: FARC or others that was a real threat. Mexico has 337 00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:05,840 Speaker 1: had major problems over the years. Bolivia was almost a 338 00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:09,280 Speaker 1: coca you know, empire at some respects. But one of 339 00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:12,680 Speaker 1: the things that I noticed in Colombia was the extent 340 00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:17,840 Speaker 1: to which not just intellectuals but even politicians would at 341 00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:21,480 Speaker 1: one moment or another step out and say we need 342 00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:24,760 Speaker 1: something different. Why in your country and not in these 343 00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:27,760 Speaker 1: others does this happen? That's a good question. That's a 344 00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:32,480 Speaker 1: good question. Well, I think that our our democracy is 345 00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:36,440 Speaker 1: a bit stronger than the democracy and other countries, and 346 00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:41,880 Speaker 1: the cost of being controversial might be not as as 347 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:46,760 Speaker 1: high politically, and because I think we've suffered more from 348 00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:49,880 Speaker 1: the drug war than the other countries. The other countries, 349 00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:53,480 Speaker 1: they were very very much concentrated. You didn't see in 350 00:22:54,000 --> 00:23:00,359 Speaker 1: Lima the effects of the expectation of coca from to 351 00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:04,879 Speaker 1: Columbia or to the United States. In Colombia, you start 352 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:08,480 Speaker 1: to see the effects of the drug trafficking also in 353 00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:15,720 Speaker 1: the cities Mainta and the violence that generated the big, 354 00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:19,720 Speaker 1: very strong, invincible drug cartels. Remember the Mayan cartel, the 355 00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:23,760 Speaker 1: Counti cartel. They were taking over the country. We reacted 356 00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:26,919 Speaker 1: against that at a very high cost because we were 357 00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:30,960 Speaker 1: feeling how they were just destroying the country, destroying our democracy. 358 00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:34,800 Speaker 1: That did not happen in Peru or in other countries 359 00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:40,560 Speaker 1: because it was a much more low profile mafias that 360 00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:42,800 Speaker 1: did not want to take over the country but want 361 00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:47,160 Speaker 1: to simply run their business. So, President, let me ask 362 00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:49,920 Speaker 1: you if I can about some of your relationships with 363 00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:53,600 Speaker 1: other Latin American leaders on this drug issue. I mean, 364 00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:56,000 Speaker 1: with the exception of the hard left. You know Castro 365 00:23:56,119 --> 00:24:00,919 Speaker 1: in Cuba, Uh, you know Nicaragua, Uh, Venezuela, which are 366 00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:03,119 Speaker 1: totally opposed to any drug reform. As far as I 367 00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:06,520 Speaker 1: could see, you would have support across the spectrum. And 368 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:10,480 Speaker 1: so here you have um we mentioned before Otto Perez Melita, 369 00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:14,080 Speaker 1: a right wing former general. But what about did you 370 00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:16,960 Speaker 1: ever discuss this issue with Mohika, the former left wing 371 00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:20,080 Speaker 1: guerrilla and who became president of Uruguay, who was just 372 00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:23,200 Speaker 1: focused on marijuana, or with Able Morales who was the 373 00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:26,600 Speaker 1: left wing leader, former Coca union leader who you know, 374 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:28,920 Speaker 1: we go to the United Nations meetings in shoot Coca, 375 00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:32,000 Speaker 1: but never seemed to get all that involved. What were 376 00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:36,800 Speaker 1: your conversations with guys like that about during the American summit. 377 00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:42,000 Speaker 1: My approach to diplomacy was very different from the approach 378 00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:45,320 Speaker 1: that Peterson had. Remember that we had a very hard 379 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:49,360 Speaker 1: confrontation with Venezuela and with Ecuador. And when I came 380 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:52,800 Speaker 1: became president, I was thinking about the peace process. So 381 00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:56,639 Speaker 1: I said, listen, in diplomacy, you need to talk, and 382 00:24:56,720 --> 00:25:00,080 Speaker 1: so I started talking to challenge through the Ecuadoria in 383 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:05,040 Speaker 1: a president to everybody, Lula and the Moxica and ever Morales, 384 00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:10,440 Speaker 1: and those were the ones that supported in the oas 385 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:17,520 Speaker 1: the resolution calling for a change in the drug war. Today, 386 00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:21,440 Speaker 1: unfortunately you will not find that support because, for example, 387 00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:26,080 Speaker 1: in Brazil you have now a very hardliner also NATO 388 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:34,320 Speaker 1: in the presidency and he prefers this approach of punitive, 389 00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:39,960 Speaker 1: hardline war against rugs because that sounds politically correct, and 390 00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:44,640 Speaker 1: so he's not going to risk the possibility of sacrifice 391 00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:49,240 Speaker 1: in popularity changing his views. And so we have seen 392 00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:53,800 Speaker 1: a shift to the rights in that America against the 393 00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:58,399 Speaker 1: progressive stance we sa is the drug traffic. That's what 394 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:02,200 Speaker 1: I feel. But yes, I did speak to them. Choice 395 00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:06,040 Speaker 1: at that time was very much in favor, very much 396 00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:09,560 Speaker 1: in favor. Yes, I think what has happened in Venezuela 397 00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:13,320 Speaker 1: is that the drug traffic has become become a part 398 00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:17,480 Speaker 1: of their economy. But at that time that did not happen. 399 00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:21,840 Speaker 1: So when Chows did support that, and he thought that 400 00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:27,160 Speaker 1: that was the the correct way, also because he saw 401 00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:31,120 Speaker 1: it as an anti imperialist stand, the same as Morales. 402 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:34,359 Speaker 1: Now this is this is this war on drugs is 403 00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:38,879 Speaker 1: an imposition of the US of the empire, and so 404 00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:43,000 Speaker 1: for different political reasons. But I remember having long talks 405 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:47,399 Speaker 1: about this issue, because when you are convinced about something 406 00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:51,320 Speaker 1: that has the consequences that we've seen in the last 407 00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:54,560 Speaker 1: decades and we're still having the consequences today, you sort 408 00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:57,520 Speaker 1: of become passionate about about the issue. And that's what 409 00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:01,800 Speaker 1: has happened to be among many issues with this issue. Well, 410 00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:03,359 Speaker 1: you know, it's funny when you tell me the story 411 00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:06,920 Speaker 1: about your conversation with Chaves. I remember hearing that when 412 00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:09,920 Speaker 1: the Guatemalan president Otto Paris was talking to the other 413 00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:13,560 Speaker 1: Central American presidents and there was some interest in Honduras 414 00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:16,320 Speaker 1: and El Salvador et cetera in Costa Rica, and then 415 00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:20,880 Speaker 1: he talked to Artega in um Nicaragua, and I heard 416 00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:24,520 Speaker 1: what Ortega's response to Otto Paris was, Look, if you're 417 00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:27,160 Speaker 1: doing this to get money from the gringoes, I totally 418 00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:32,159 Speaker 1: supported if you're serious, forget about it, right. So it 419 00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:34,480 Speaker 1: was just a kind of cynical kind of response. What 420 00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:38,480 Speaker 1: about with Calderon, the Mexican president, who's a good friend 421 00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:40,240 Speaker 1: of mine and we became very good friends, and we 422 00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:44,800 Speaker 1: still our friends. He was elected president with the banner 423 00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:49,080 Speaker 1: of hardline position against the drug cartels. That was one 424 00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:52,880 Speaker 1: of the issues that got him elected, so this could 425 00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:56,520 Speaker 1: be interpreted as a shift. But he went along even 426 00:27:56,600 --> 00:28:00,520 Speaker 1: though he was reluctant. He supported the resolution, but he 427 00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:03,919 Speaker 1: was not very much convinced that that was the Routetoo. 428 00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:07,120 Speaker 1: I remember my conversation with it. Seemed like he got 429 00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:10,480 Speaker 1: the basic logic of why prohibition was doomed to failure, 430 00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:13,760 Speaker 1: but he was so preoccupied with fighting the narcos and 431 00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:16,560 Speaker 1: the frustrations of that that he felt there was nothing 432 00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:19,680 Speaker 1: in between at all. Um. I think, in fact, he 433 00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:21,760 Speaker 1: in one of the last speeches he ever gave his 434 00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:23,560 Speaker 1: president when he went up to the u n at 435 00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:25,840 Speaker 1: the end of two thousand twelve, he may have been 436 00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:27,800 Speaker 1: one of the first, if not the first president to 437 00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:31,800 Speaker 1: use the phrase drug prohibition to refer to that, which 438 00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:34,920 Speaker 1: was an interesting step out. And what about his successor? 439 00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:40,600 Speaker 1: Pinionetoto was quite open was it was quite the collaborative 440 00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:45,480 Speaker 1: in this stand. However, however, people who surround him, people 441 00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:49,040 Speaker 1: from the army, from the Navy, they had another stand. 442 00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:54,040 Speaker 1: It was very difficult, for example, even to get a 443 00:28:55,560 --> 00:29:01,640 Speaker 1: an agreement that we would working but nature myself for 444 00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:09,120 Speaker 1: the two navies two collaborate interdicting drugs in the c UH. 445 00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:13,480 Speaker 1: The Mexican Navy was not very, very enthusiastic about it, 446 00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:18,840 Speaker 1: and I always thought, why what is the question? Sometimes 447 00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:22,880 Speaker 1: life converted you into a Voltaian. Voltaire used to say, 448 00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:26,560 Speaker 1: think bad about something and you might be right, And 449 00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:31,640 Speaker 1: so I was always puzzled with the people around on 450 00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:35,120 Speaker 1: this particular issue. Yeah, you know, it's interesting you frame 451 00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:38,080 Speaker 1: it that way, because I remember for many years the 452 00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:41,320 Speaker 1: spring of the coca crops with click phost fate, the 453 00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:46,960 Speaker 1: herb side eradicating agent was a very controversial issue. And 454 00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:49,600 Speaker 1: I talked a few days ago with a friend of mine, 455 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:52,800 Speaker 1: Aljandro Gaviria, your former Minister of Health, and he told 456 00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:55,400 Speaker 1: me about meeting with you to discuss this issue about 457 00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:58,200 Speaker 1: ending just ending the aerial eradication, even though there was 458 00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:01,960 Speaker 1: huge US pressure to keep it going, and you simply said, yes, 459 00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:05,080 Speaker 1: let's do it. Why had you, I mean, there was 460 00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:07,800 Speaker 1: gonna be political fallout from my government. Why were you 461 00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:11,760 Speaker 1: so ready to do that then? Because what I told 462 00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:16,440 Speaker 1: you at the beginning, my experience convinced me that that 463 00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:21,480 Speaker 1: didn't work, and that the consequences of spraying were terrible 464 00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:24,440 Speaker 1: in terms of the environment, in terms of public health, 465 00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:28,360 Speaker 1: and we even had a big route with equal equal 466 00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:32,760 Speaker 1: took us to the International Court of Justice, sued Colombia 467 00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:34,800 Speaker 1: and we were going to we were going to lose 468 00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:42,080 Speaker 1: that legal battle. But the the the main reason is 469 00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:47,680 Speaker 1: that it did not work. You sprayed, and immediately those 470 00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:53,240 Speaker 1: campesinos went and replanted, or they even invented ways to 471 00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:58,000 Speaker 1: protect themselves refrained. There's something called panella, which is which 472 00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:01,400 Speaker 1: is extracted from show ground, and they put panella on 473 00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:05,080 Speaker 1: the leaves and the spray did nothing to them. So 474 00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:10,000 Speaker 1: it did work and had terrible consequences. And when at 475 00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:13,320 Speaker 1: another guardian, I said, really it's not working. Oh what 476 00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:18,600 Speaker 1: would the United States? What would they say? And I said, well, 477 00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:21,200 Speaker 1: I don't care what they say. I think it's the 478 00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:24,400 Speaker 1: correct thing to do. Are you convinced the minister and 479 00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:28,320 Speaker 1: he said yes, well I'm convinced also, let's finish it. 480 00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:32,160 Speaker 1: Of course, it's a big reaction. They still today they 481 00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:36,360 Speaker 1: say that Colombia is producing coca and has increased the 482 00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:40,440 Speaker 1: production coca because of that decision. That is absolutely nonsense. 483 00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:43,680 Speaker 1: It's not because of that decision. And so yes, I 484 00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:46,560 Speaker 1: took the decision convinced that I was doing the correct thing, 485 00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:51,280 Speaker 1: and that was about eight years ago. I am still 486 00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:53,760 Speaker 1: convinced that that is correct, the correct decision and the 487 00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:59,520 Speaker 1: worst mistake. Enough said this publicly that President Dookie can 488 00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:05,160 Speaker 1: do right now, and he's thinking of re establishing the 489 00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:09,680 Speaker 1: spray because you will have all these peasants who if 490 00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:13,440 Speaker 1: they don't have an alternative, they will die to continue 491 00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:16,360 Speaker 1: to give food to their children. And that's why in 492 00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:22,400 Speaker 1: the peace agreement we included substituting coca for legal crops. 493 00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:27,520 Speaker 1: And let me give you a comparison. If you eradicate 494 00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:32,360 Speaker 1: by force or you spray, the rate of replanting goes 495 00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:38,400 Speaker 1: up to so after eradicating, they go and replant. We started, 496 00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:41,480 Speaker 1: after the peace process was signed, a very aggressive and 497 00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:47,160 Speaker 1: ambitious program of voluntary substitution. We paid the families and 498 00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:51,800 Speaker 1: we gave them instruments to plant something else that was legal. 499 00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:58,160 Speaker 1: And the United Nations verified how much replanting occurred with 500 00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:03,080 Speaker 1: that policy and they be planted was less than one percent. 501 00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:06,840 Speaker 1: So you see the difference up to sev seven oh 502 00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:10,400 Speaker 1: and less than one percent. That's the way to do it. Well, 503 00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:12,400 Speaker 1: let me challenge you on this, e bit, okay, because 504 00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:15,120 Speaker 1: I have huge amount admiration for what you did. With 505 00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:18,400 Speaker 1: the FARC agreement, obviously, and it had contained obviously an 506 00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:22,480 Speaker 1: entire chapter about drugs, and obviously investing in the livelihoods 507 00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:25,240 Speaker 1: of the camposinos was crucial. But when it comes to 508 00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:28,680 Speaker 1: the big global picture, it's not going to affect the 509 00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:31,680 Speaker 1: drug problem or the global cocaine markets, right, because even 510 00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:34,880 Speaker 1: if you get a hundred thousand Campesinos switching out of coca, 511 00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:38,920 Speaker 1: they'll just be replaced by people elsewhere in Colombia, Bolivia, Peru, 512 00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:42,200 Speaker 1: maybe Ecuador. So for Colombia it may have been crucial, 513 00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:46,480 Speaker 1: but globally it's a wash. I agree with you. That's 514 00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:50,120 Speaker 1: because of the balloon effect. Yes, if you continue to 515 00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:55,360 Speaker 1: have a demand for marijuana, of cocaine, of heroin in 516 00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:59,800 Speaker 1: the consuming countries, you will have to supply. This is 517 00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:04,920 Speaker 1: the contrary of what the econs name the says law. 518 00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:11,839 Speaker 1: This is Frenchshire economists that the production creates its own demand. Well, 519 00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:15,360 Speaker 1: in this case, the demand creates its own production. So 520 00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:18,960 Speaker 1: and it's so profitable that, yes, if we were able 521 00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:23,560 Speaker 1: to eradicate all the production of cocaine in Colombia, you 522 00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:26,840 Speaker 1: will immediately see and you're seeing it in other parts 523 00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:30,000 Speaker 1: of the world, in Asia and Indonesia. And that has 524 00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:32,800 Speaker 1: been the history of this issue since the Open Wars. 525 00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:37,560 Speaker 1: That has been the reality. The problem is that sometimes 526 00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:42,799 Speaker 1: because of political reasons, global leaders and global politicians don't 527 00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:46,880 Speaker 1: like to accept that. Let's take a break here and 528 00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:58,200 Speaker 1: go to an ad. One of the things that I 529 00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:01,279 Speaker 1: take pride in from my work in the US is 530 00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:04,400 Speaker 1: that we really initiated the whole. I mean, the question becomes, 531 00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:07,200 Speaker 1: how could it be that the United States, which championed 532 00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:10,200 Speaker 1: the drug war domestically and globally for almost a hundred years, 533 00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:14,440 Speaker 1: nonetheless became the global leader in marijuana legalization. And a 534 00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:17,000 Speaker 1: lot of it started with a very strategic approach with 535 00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:22,000 Speaker 1: legalizing medical marijuana in California in and then continuing to 536 00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:25,239 Speaker 1: other states and beginning to change the dialogue, and you know, 537 00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:28,120 Speaker 1: and then ultimately resulting in first Colorado and Washington in 538 00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:31,520 Speaker 1: twelve and other states. And I look in Latin America 539 00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:33,879 Speaker 1: now and I see that that's one of the few 540 00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:37,080 Speaker 1: drug reform issues which seems to be moving forward all 541 00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:39,960 Speaker 1: around the continent. And I think you played a key 542 00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:43,040 Speaker 1: role in making Columbia one of the leaders in this. Yes, 543 00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:46,719 Speaker 1: And for example, nobody would have imagined that that would 544 00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:51,400 Speaker 1: happen in Mexico and did in Colombia. Unfortunately, the current 545 00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:56,480 Speaker 1: government very conservative and very hardliner, and they started to 546 00:35:56,520 --> 00:36:01,520 Speaker 1: go back. They started to criminally eyes again the consumption 547 00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:08,000 Speaker 1: of drugs. And there's one exact date that I use 548 00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:10,840 Speaker 1: a lot as an example to tell the Columbians to 549 00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:15,080 Speaker 1: open their eyes. The three of November, when President Biden 550 00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:21,800 Speaker 1: was elected, eight states in the United States legalized bod iguana. 551 00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:26,800 Speaker 1: That same day, the Colombian House of Representatives, because of 552 00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:31,960 Speaker 1: the pressure of the government, rejected a law to do 553 00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:35,040 Speaker 1: the same thing. And so what is the consequence of this? 554 00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:38,359 Speaker 1: The money stays in the US, That's where I tell 555 00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:42,600 Speaker 1: my fellow collumbience, and the violence stays here in Colombia. 556 00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:47,920 Speaker 1: You're exporting your You're being stupid by not legalizing it. 557 00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:50,960 Speaker 1: We are much more efficient producers of bard iguana. And 558 00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:56,279 Speaker 1: then the Californians or in Colorado or Oregon. And when 559 00:36:56,320 --> 00:37:00,360 Speaker 1: you prohibited here, you will continue with a violent and 560 00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:05,000 Speaker 1: the mafia's and the United States is legalizing it. But 561 00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:10,319 Speaker 1: another issue here is how do you explain it. Campasino 562 00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:14,239 Speaker 1: who grows body want but he's doing something illegal and 563 00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:17,480 Speaker 1: he has to go to jail. If you have the 564 00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:22,720 Speaker 1: United States legalizing it, they tell you, is that not stupid? 565 00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:27,400 Speaker 1: It is with the reality. I remember after we legalize 566 00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:32,319 Speaker 1: marijuana and Colorado Washington, reading the papers, President Santo's condemns 567 00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:35,880 Speaker 1: the US for their their hypocrisy. Here you are legalizing 568 00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:39,520 Speaker 1: your own country and still expecting us to keep eradicating 569 00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:41,799 Speaker 1: the plants in our own And I think, I mean, 570 00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:44,239 Speaker 1: I guess in a way what happened in Colorado and Washington, 571 00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:47,080 Speaker 1: and then I guess Mohican Uruguay really did help open 572 00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:50,520 Speaker 1: up space to move this issue forward. And even your successor, 573 00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:54,399 Speaker 1: d K is being respectful on the medical marijuana piece, right, yes, 574 00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:57,239 Speaker 1: because and no, and and the pressure has been a 575 00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:01,120 Speaker 1: big pressure because a lot of companies started to invest 576 00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:05,799 Speaker 1: in Colombia and they said, you can't just go go back. 577 00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:10,880 Speaker 1: So with the medical marijuana, he has been much more positive. 578 00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:16,080 Speaker 1: But for recreational purposes he's still very very reluctant. But 579 00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:20,680 Speaker 1: so now I have because they asked me, I have 580 00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:22,800 Speaker 1: a much more radical stand. I think we have to 581 00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:26,040 Speaker 1: legalize the coca production or not. I know that we're 582 00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:30,040 Speaker 1: years from that, but also we need to regulate and 583 00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:34,480 Speaker 1: legalize all the drugs because otherwise if you if you prohibit, 584 00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:40,000 Speaker 1: the word prohibition is the keyword. If you prohibit, you 585 00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:46,399 Speaker 1: you create all kinds of terrible collateral damages. So as 586 00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:49,279 Speaker 1: we're speaking, it's the middle of May, uh and we 587 00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:51,200 Speaker 1: don't know what will happen by the time people here 588 00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:53,400 Speaker 1: this in this summer. But there is a cocaine, a 589 00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:58,640 Speaker 1: very thoughtful cocaine legalization bill in the Congress of Columbia. 590 00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:01,440 Speaker 1: Now right, it's that, would you know, allow the coca 591 00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:04,720 Speaker 1: products to be sold openly and make cocaine powder cocaine 592 00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:07,960 Speaker 1: strictly regulated and not allow crack cocaine to be sold 593 00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:10,919 Speaker 1: to decriminalized. So are you able and are you willing 594 00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:13,120 Speaker 1: to be speaking out in favor of this bill? Are 595 00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:16,680 Speaker 1: you hesitant to have already spoken in favor of this bill? 596 00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:21,080 Speaker 1: But unfortunately I don't see that this bill will pass. No, 597 00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:23,600 Speaker 1: it's the beginning, though, it's the beginning. Yes, I think 598 00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:28,279 Speaker 1: we have to try again explain much more. The world 599 00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:32,480 Speaker 1: is to teach the Colombians why this is good, because 600 00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:35,120 Speaker 1: the image they have, they said, this is terrible. This 601 00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:39,000 Speaker 1: president is poisoning kids. Well, you need to do on 602 00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:43,080 Speaker 1: a big effort to explain that it's the contrary that 603 00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:49,319 Speaker 1: we are. We're we're doing something to to benefit many 604 00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:51,400 Speaker 1: of the kids that today, for example, are in the 605 00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:55,200 Speaker 1: criminal band because of group trafficy or adds. This is 606 00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:59,480 Speaker 1: precisely to address this issue with much more humane and 607 00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:03,799 Speaker 1: effect to approach. So a question I asked virtually all 608 00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:06,799 Speaker 1: my guests, and I'm gonna ask you. Let me frame 609 00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:10,840 Speaker 1: it in this way. When President Obama wrote his first autobiography, 610 00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:14,080 Speaker 1: he talked about having been a young man smoking marijuana, 611 00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:17,400 Speaker 1: trying a little cocaine. So, if you were writing your 612 00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:21,600 Speaker 1: autobiography and being open about what your own past experience was, 613 00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:24,719 Speaker 1: what is your own past experience with these substancestive and 614 00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:29,919 Speaker 1: illegal the same as Obama's. I smoked my first joint 615 00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:34,600 Speaker 1: of marijuana in Kansas, the University of Kansas, and the 616 00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:39,120 Speaker 1: first time I tried coke was here in Columbia. Uh. 617 00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:44,080 Speaker 1: But so my answer is I follow Obama, I think, okay? 618 00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:48,520 Speaker 1: And another question, Columbia really in somers And I don't 619 00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:50,399 Speaker 1: know if you've ever heard of a professor named Richard 620 00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:55,160 Speaker 1: Schulte's He was the famous Harvard the godfather of ethnobodany, 621 00:40:55,719 --> 00:40:57,800 Speaker 1: and he was he was a mentor of Wade Davis. 622 00:40:58,120 --> 00:41:00,040 Speaker 1: That's right, that's right. He was a great right on 623 00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:03,280 Speaker 1: these issues. And what I've heard is that Colombia probably 624 00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:09,480 Speaker 1: contains more natural psychoactive natural substances and plants. And part 625 00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:12,080 Speaker 1: of this is part of the indigenous culture in Colombia. 626 00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:15,600 Speaker 1: And now we're seeing this blossoming of psychedelics research and 627 00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:17,880 Speaker 1: also in the desire to include, you know, the native 628 00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:21,120 Speaker 1: populations in this. I'm curious, how are where are you 629 00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:23,440 Speaker 1: of this, of this tradition in Colombia and what it 630 00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:29,520 Speaker 1: implications might be. Well again, later in life, I have 631 00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:35,440 Speaker 1: been learning about the the wisdom of the indigenous communities. 632 00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:38,320 Speaker 1: I had an experience with them when I was Minister 633 00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:41,560 Speaker 1: of Defense. There was this friend of mine who was 634 00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:44,840 Speaker 1: after my Minister of the Environment, who took me to 635 00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:50,279 Speaker 1: talk to the indigenous communities in the high mountains of 636 00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:56,640 Speaker 1: the Sierra. But he said, as Minister, you can because 637 00:41:56,680 --> 00:41:59,320 Speaker 1: of the war, their leaders had not been able to 638 00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:02,319 Speaker 1: come together for for a long time. You can help 639 00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:05,440 Speaker 1: them come together simply by picking them up and bring 640 00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:08,360 Speaker 1: them into this place, this beautiful place high the mountain. 641 00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:11,640 Speaker 1: So I did that, and I went there with my family, 642 00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:16,040 Speaker 1: my wife and my few kids, and these governors they 643 00:42:16,040 --> 00:42:20,480 Speaker 1: are called or the mammos, arrived and they said to me, 644 00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:25,759 Speaker 1: we have to speak among ourselves before and then we'll 645 00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:28,680 Speaker 1: speak to you. Well, I thought it was one hour 646 00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:33,240 Speaker 1: or two hours. They spent thirty hours talking and chewing 647 00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:37,920 Speaker 1: coca they called Mambia chewing cocca for thirty hours, and 648 00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:42,080 Speaker 1: then they called me in and they start to explain 649 00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:50,520 Speaker 1: to me other culture, all their their philosophies. There, their 650 00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:55,120 Speaker 1: vision about justice, especially their vision about the environment, and 651 00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:58,359 Speaker 1: how they are our older brothers. So I was very 652 00:42:58,440 --> 00:43:01,600 Speaker 1: much impressed with am and I started to to hear 653 00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:04,800 Speaker 1: them more. And when I got inagurgated as president. The 654 00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:08,600 Speaker 1: day I was innagurgated, I went to them and asked 655 00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:11,719 Speaker 1: for their permission, because they are our older brothers. As 656 00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:17,000 Speaker 1: a gesture to recognize them as the indigenous communities that 657 00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:20,960 Speaker 1: were here before anybody, I asked for their blessing to 658 00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:24,520 Speaker 1: go to Congress and be intagorated, and they said yes, 659 00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:27,640 Speaker 1: and they gave me a mad date. They said, you 660 00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:31,439 Speaker 1: must make peace but not only among people, among human beings. 661 00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:36,160 Speaker 1: You must make peace with nature because we have a 662 00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:40,000 Speaker 1: disconnection with nature, and you, unfortunately going to suffer because 663 00:43:40,040 --> 00:43:42,800 Speaker 1: she is mad, and when she's mad, we all suffer 664 00:43:42,840 --> 00:43:46,920 Speaker 1: the consequences. And one week later, even one week later 665 00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:50,880 Speaker 1: after I got in degradated Colombia was hit by the 666 00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:54,800 Speaker 1: worst Ninia phenomenon in the history of Columbia, that the 667 00:43:54,840 --> 00:43:57,680 Speaker 1: worst natural disaster. The first year I was in office, 668 00:43:57,680 --> 00:44:01,080 Speaker 1: the first year and a half, was administered a fludded country. 669 00:44:01,719 --> 00:44:05,439 Speaker 1: So I became engaged with them. They started to teach 670 00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:09,560 Speaker 1: me about the environment, about how rich our environment in 671 00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:12,719 Speaker 1: Columbias and how we had to protect it. And that's 672 00:44:12,719 --> 00:44:16,120 Speaker 1: why we put in place very aggressive environmental policies to 673 00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:20,319 Speaker 1: protect our biodiversity, to protect our rivers, to protect these 674 00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:24,560 Speaker 1: ecosystems that are only in Colombia. And I am now 675 00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:27,440 Speaker 1: convinced that we have to hear these Indi discribunities all 676 00:44:27,480 --> 00:44:30,640 Speaker 1: around the world in Columbia because they have more wisdom. 677 00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:34,520 Speaker 1: If we hadn't heard them before, we were not facing 678 00:44:35,080 --> 00:44:38,840 Speaker 1: this existential threat, which is climate change. And they have 679 00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:43,840 Speaker 1: been saying this for a long long time. Well, Wammanuel Santos, 680 00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:46,960 Speaker 1: that's a beautiful way to conclude our conversation on the 681 00:44:47,040 --> 00:44:49,640 Speaker 1: wisdom of the indigenous people. So thank you ever so 682 00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:52,279 Speaker 1: much for taking this time to have this conversation, and 683 00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:59,720 Speaker 1: I look forward to our past crossing before long. Syco 684 00:44:59,800 --> 00:45:03,200 Speaker 1: Act is the production of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. 685 00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:06,880 Speaker 1: It's hosted by me Ethan Nadelman. It's produced by Katcha 686 00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:11,120 Speaker 1: Kumkova and Ben Cabrick. The executive producers are Dylan Golden, 687 00:45:11,320 --> 00:45:15,360 Speaker 1: Ari Handel, Elizabeth Geesus and Darren Aronovski for Protozoa Pictures, 688 00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:18,960 Speaker 1: Alice Williams and Matt Frederick for I Heart Radio and 689 00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:22,880 Speaker 1: me Ethan Nadelman. Our music is by Ari Belusian and 690 00:45:22,960 --> 00:45:26,640 Speaker 1: a special thanks to Avivit Brio, Sef Bianca Grimshaw and 691 00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:30,240 Speaker 1: Robert Beatty. If you'd like to share your own stories, 692 00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:33,560 Speaker 1: comments or ideas, please leave us a message at eight 693 00:45:33,680 --> 00:45:39,839 Speaker 1: three three seven seven nine sixty. That's one eight three 694 00:45:39,960 --> 00:45:45,480 Speaker 1: three Psycho zero. You can also email us as Psychoactive 695 00:45:45,520 --> 00:45:48,440 Speaker 1: at protozoa dot com or find me on Twitter at 696 00:45:48,480 --> 00:45:51,239 Speaker 1: Ethan Nadelman. And if you couldn't keep track of all this, 697 00:45:51,560 --> 00:45:59,200 Speaker 1: find the information in the show notes. Next time I'm Psychoactive, 698 00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:02,120 Speaker 1: I'll be talk talking with Dr Nora Vocal, who has 699 00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:04,960 Speaker 1: headed the National Student on drug abuse since two thousand 700 00:46:05,080 --> 00:46:08,840 Speaker 1: and three. That's the lead research funding agency in the 701 00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:11,719 Speaker 1: world about drugs. I have to say I was a 702 00:46:11,800 --> 00:46:14,759 Speaker 1: bit surprised she accepted my invitation to join us, so 703 00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:18,120 Speaker 1: this should be a particularly good episode. There's one issue 704 00:46:18,160 --> 00:46:19,879 Speaker 1: I think, going back a number of years ago, where 705 00:46:19,880 --> 00:46:21,800 Speaker 1: if I pat myself on the back, I think I 706 00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:24,120 Speaker 1: was more right than you were, which is people were saying, 707 00:46:24,160 --> 00:46:27,000 Speaker 1: if you're gonna legalize marijuana, you're gonna see this explosion 708 00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:30,839 Speaker 1: in adolescent used of marijuana and problematic use. You were right. 709 00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:34,040 Speaker 1: I was expecting the use of my one among adolescence 710 00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:38,200 Speaker 1: would go up, and overall it hasn't subscribed to Cycleactive 711 00:46:38,280 --> 00:46:39,360 Speaker 1: now see it, don't miss it.