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Speaker 1: Who Zone Media.

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Speaker 2: We're back for part two. In our conversation with Ava,

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Speaker 2: when we left off, Ava was describing her experience in

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Speaker 2: the West Bank. I wanted to know what it was

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Speaker 2: like traveling into leslay Rafah, in particular from the West Bank.

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Speaker 2: So now we are going to jump back into that conversation.

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Speaker 2: What was that process of even entering what like from

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Speaker 2: the West Bank?

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Speaker 3: So there is no direct way for the West Bank.

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Speaker 3: I mean, it's it's hilarious because, like, you know, like

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Speaker 3: the conventional wisdom is like, oh, the entire land of

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Speaker 3: Palestine is like smaller in New Jersey, but you don't

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Speaker 3: really notice it until like I am in Yaffa, I'm

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Speaker 3: in Tel Aviv, I am like thirty kilometers or something

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Speaker 3: from Gaza. I am in the West Bank. I am

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Speaker 3: so close, but you have to go a long way

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Speaker 3: over a long there are a lot of like logistical

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Speaker 3: hurdles to get there, just kind of like any kind

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Speaker 3: of travel in the West Bank or any kind of

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Speaker 3: occupied space. But basically my journey looked like leaving Masafriata,

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Speaker 3: the area of villages in the south hibern Hills or

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Speaker 3: southern West Bank, going north to Ramala, crossing into Kouds

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Speaker 3: and then hanging out and then taking and I got

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Speaker 3: to be in the Goods for e which was amazing

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Speaker 3: to see that, But then hopping on a bus and

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Speaker 3: riding all the way down to a Lats like a

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Speaker 3: kind of a horrible tourist town at the southern end

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Speaker 3: of forty eight. Then cut a bus into Tapa on

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Speaker 3: the Egyptian side in Sinai. Crossing took forever, so I

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Speaker 3: spent basically twelve hours overnight circuling the Sinai, which wasn't

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Speaker 3: my original plan, it is what happened. And then I

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Speaker 3: went to Cairo, and I spent some time in Cairo.

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Speaker 3: I got there a little bit early. Our entry was delayed,

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Speaker 3: so I ended up having some basic chirot to do compass,

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Speaker 3: which was fine and good, and then went in with

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Speaker 3: a UN convoy, which is really the only way that

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Speaker 3: you can go in crossing the northern Sinai. There's a

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Speaker 3: lot of checks with Egyptian officials out then you get

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Speaker 3: to the border, go through a bunch of checks with

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Speaker 3: Egyptian officials, then you cross over have a comparatively fewer

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Speaker 3: but still plenty checks with gasand officials. I also almost

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Speaker 3: cried like looking at a Palaestinian seal crossing in because

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Speaker 3: I was like getting a stamp in my passport the

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Speaker 3: Palestinian authority in Gaza, because I was like, I've never

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Speaker 3: like it's always every court of entry into Palestine is

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Speaker 3: otherwise controlled by the Israelis. This is like the only

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Speaker 3: one that is under Palestinian control. Even if it's like

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Speaker 3: Palestinian control in a giant open air prison, it's like

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Speaker 3: still something under And then we're inside and I've been

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Speaker 3: working and you know, driving in cars and movement is

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Speaker 3: pretty limited for security reasons. The murdering of the World

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Speaker 3: Central Kitchen workers that happened not long before I came,

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Speaker 3: when like basically a targeted drones strike took out three

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Speaker 3: vehicles and six or seven people. Still very unclear reasons,

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Speaker 3: but it was not an accident, maybe not directed from

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Speaker 3: the top, but very scary. So there's a lot of

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Speaker 3: controlled movements. So basically you have to kind of a

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Speaker 3: preapproved plan for where you're going to go and what

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Speaker 3: you're going to do when you're going to move. But yeah,

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Speaker 3: there's a lot of there's for a number of international

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Speaker 3: aid workers here right now, and I'm really privileged to

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Speaker 3: work with mostly Palestinian ones, but a few good internationals too.

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Speaker 2: I wanted to get Avia's perspective about social media and

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Speaker 2: the actions of college protesters, how much coverage of the

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Speaker 2: protests actually gets to Palestinians.

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Speaker 3: I was watching coverage with one of the doctors here

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Speaker 3: of campus protests and other like international protests just this afternoon.

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Speaker 3: People are talking about it. People are talking about global

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Speaker 3: resistance and support. I don't know how representative that is

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Speaker 3: outside of that space. Like I interact with a lot

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Speaker 3: of members of the public who are not healthcare workers,

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Speaker 3: but most of my conversations are with healthcare workers. I

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Speaker 3: do speak a little bit of Arabic, but not at

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Speaker 3: like a deep conversational level, like enough to do some

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Speaker 3: basic assessments and pleasantries and you know, meet my needs.

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Speaker 3: A lot of people are aware and are feeling hopeful

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Speaker 3: in this moment with the negotiations, in part because of

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Speaker 3: the international pressure. It's interesting a lot. I feel like

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Speaker 3: there's a lot more hopefulness in Gaza than I've experienced

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Speaker 3: just talking with people that I experienced in the West Bank.

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Speaker 3: And I think that partly that might be the moment,

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Speaker 3: but also I think it's partly sometimes in In fact,

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Speaker 3: they noticed in the West Bank too, where it's like

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Speaker 3: it is horrible and horrifying and terrifying to be in

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Speaker 3: the eye of the storm or to be in the storm,

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Speaker 3: but it's like you're in it and you don't have

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Speaker 3: to imagine it elsewhere, if that makes sense. When that

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Speaker 3: all started, like I tried to plug in as best

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Speaker 3: as I could with you know, protest movements around the States,

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Speaker 3: and as I'm sure a lot of people, maybe you

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Speaker 3: and a lot of people might be listening, could like

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Speaker 3: resonate with. It felt very like exciting to have that

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Speaker 3: much motivation or that many people caring about Palestine, but

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Speaker 3: also really inadequate and really hopeless. Just feel like you're

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Speaker 3: throwing yourself against a wall and nothing's going to change,

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Speaker 3: and feels are really hopeless. And in the West Bank

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Speaker 3: I had Palestinian activists say, I think this has proven

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Speaker 3: that no protest movements do anything, but like in this

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Speaker 3: moment and in this location, I don't hear that, and

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Speaker 3: I don't believe that that's the case. Like I think

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Speaker 3: that protest movements have a limited capacity to change those people,

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Speaker 3: like the the policies and just those people in power

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Speaker 3: that said, it's so little, so late as far as

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Speaker 3: like any kind of political change in the West and

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Speaker 3: in the US and in Europe. Like today, I visited

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Speaker 3: a cemetery that was built by like a guy and

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Speaker 3: his volunteers he worked with since October seventh, and like

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Speaker 3: visited the site of the remains of his family. What

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Speaker 3: remains were covered and of like another person's remains of

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Speaker 3: her family, and just like a field of some quality

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Speaker 3: and a lot of just like pavers, stones just thrown

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Speaker 3: down with names written on them in the sand, surrounded

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Speaker 3: by tent encampments, with children fighting to water the plants

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Speaker 3: in order to get a couple of shekels their nation.

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Speaker 3: Like it also really really sucks, and the fact that

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Speaker 3: it's gotten to this point is unimaginably horrific.

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Speaker 2: Ava had been on the ground, its say, and helping

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Speaker 2: in what little remains because its hospitals. This is what

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Speaker 2: she had to say about that experience.

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Speaker 3: There is no space. Most of the sickest and most

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Speaker 3: seriously injured patients are treated on the floor because there's

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Speaker 3: no space, and they were brought in screaming, bleeding, dying

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Speaker 3: or dead. The first few days I saw several people

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Speaker 3: die on the floor. You know, saw several bodies on

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Speaker 3: the floor. It's incredibly hard space. Most of the difficulty

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Speaker 3: that I have seen, like I said before, has not

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Speaker 3: been direct violence from the genocide, such as a missile falling,

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Speaker 3: such as shopnels, such as conclassifores, such as gunshots. I've

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Speaker 3: seen all of those, but that has not been the

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Speaker 3: majority of what I have seen. The majority of what

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Speaker 3: I have seen is children who do not have access

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Speaker 3: to their anti seasure medications. So the child comes in

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Speaker 3: and what's called satasphoaloptigus, which is a teacher that lasts

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Speaker 3: longer than thirty minutes, and it's gotten to a point

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Speaker 3: where it's self reinforcing and it can't be stopped easily,

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Speaker 3: and it's often and it can be easily fail even

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Speaker 3: with critical care resources. They have seen children whose parents

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Speaker 3: had to a different form of a medication and with

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Speaker 3: a different dosing and things, and that got confusing because

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Speaker 3: they were either like find someone who's bringing in medication,

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Speaker 3: or like find it from another place and it's not

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Speaker 3: written in Arabic and it's not clear, and so they

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Speaker 3: end up getting a wrong dose. It's like that on

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Speaker 3: the shot is now the only provider of dialysis in there,

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Speaker 3: there's another hospital that provides, but everywhere is so overly,

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Speaker 3: there's way too many people drawing on those resources that

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Speaker 3: they're having to run people shorter periods of time, more

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Speaker 3: spread out schedule, so people get critically sick. It's like

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Speaker 3: a lack of clean water because oft of infrastructure, because

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Speaker 3: of mass displacement, because of a extended period where in

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Speaker 3: the Israelis were and the Egyptians were preventing flow of

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Speaker 3: clean water resources into Gaza. So children, adults are getting hepatitis,

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Speaker 3: a turning yellow with jaundice, having persistin diarrhea, dehydration, incredibly

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Speaker 3: high rates of septic shock, and like severe systemic infection

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Speaker 3: due to all kinds of untreated conditions. Because it's so

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Speaker 3: much work and so dangerous for people to access care,

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Speaker 3: let alone just live that people put things off till

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Speaker 3: they're literally dying. It's not a stable situation, but it's

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Speaker 3: like a tenuously like I said, hanging on my thread situation.

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Speaker 3: And again I just I am. I am terrified of

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Speaker 3: what will happen if then everybody has to relocate again,

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Speaker 3: because it's going to be like people not going back

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Speaker 3: to square one it'll be going, you know, backward in

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Speaker 3: the whole new depths of pain and suffering, because like

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Speaker 3: if they're pushed out of Raupa to han Uness, it'll

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Speaker 3: be to an already devastated city with now tent cities

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Speaker 3: and people trying to rebuild a hospital where there is

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Speaker 3: no water infrastructure.

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Speaker 2: Despite the terrible suffering, Ava was able to find time

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Speaker 2: to connect with her faith and her heritage while she

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Speaker 2: was in Les.

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Speaker 3: I am also Jewish. That is not the reason I

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Speaker 3: am here, but it is not not a reason that

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Speaker 3: I am here. And during like the first few months

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Speaker 3: since the seventh of October, Jews took up a lot

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Speaker 3: of space in protest movements, and I think for good reason,

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Speaker 3: because frankly, white supremacy and time with sami Arab Antipolsinian

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Speaker 3: bias and people not knowing what to think or do

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Speaker 3: about Palestine, and so having Voicesjewish Americans saying like, no, actually,

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Speaker 3: this is bad, Like you can all see that and

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Speaker 3: just go ahead and acknowledge it's bad and we can

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Speaker 3: move forward. I think is important that said. I think

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Speaker 3: that the voices of Jewish people the voices of white people.

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Speaker 3: Not all Jews are white, of course, but many Jews

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Speaker 3: experienced whiteness and do not generally experience Islamophobia or anti Arabias,

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Speaker 3: although planet some.

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Speaker 2: New Here's a voice note Eva shared with us after

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Speaker 2: a long day at the hospital in the data.

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Speaker 3: Back at our house, I made some soup with noodles

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Speaker 3: and some beans are food. It's shaba scandals. For the

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Speaker 3: first time in a long time, I find myself interestingly

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Speaker 3: less estranged from my practice then I have been. It

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Speaker 3: feels very in line with my faith, practice and my

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Speaker 3: ethics to be here, and that feels good. And it's

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Speaker 3: been the first time in a long time that I've

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Speaker 3: felt like lighting. There's been several times that people have

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Speaker 3: asked me my faith and I've answered I'm Jewish, and

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Speaker 3: some of them were interested or excited, some of them

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Speaker 3: were surprised or confused, most who were like, yeah, no problem.

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Speaker 3: And obviously, and nobody has said anything negative about me

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Speaker 3: for that, or for being American for that matter. My

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Speaker 3: experience of Palestinians continues to be of the most understanding,

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Speaker 3: welcoming and people in hospitable people and people most capable

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Speaker 3: of holding complexity. People here obviously are not fans of

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Speaker 3: the US, not fans in the State of Israel, not

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Speaker 3: fans of most of their experience of Jews, but have

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Speaker 3: no problem with people from the US or people who

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Speaker 3: are Jewish. And that much is my experience in the

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Speaker 3: last Bank. So there's that I've been offered people's foods

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Speaker 3: so many times, and I consistently decline, except for when

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Speaker 3: I've just fed them and I eat something and then

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Speaker 3: I'm like, that's enough, thank you. I don't know, it's

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Speaker 3: a really magical place. It's a really hard place to be,

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Speaker 3: and I'm grateful I get to be here.

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Speaker 2: It's obvious how much help there is great, but to

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Speaker 2: give the people a pleasant With their hospitals bombed and

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Speaker 2: their doctors killed, they desperately need medical help. But she

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Speaker 2: says they have given her help as well.

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Speaker 3: And I think it's really important, like you say, to

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Speaker 3: be focused on, like the people who are experiencing the

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Speaker 3: genocide and are resisting the genocide, because truly, in no

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Speaker 3: small part, I came to Palestine hoping to be, you know,

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Speaker 3: to do something to help, and also to be reinspired,

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Speaker 3: because Palestinians are experts in resisting colonialism, experts in resisting genocide,

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Speaker 3: experts in maintaining whatever can be considered hopefulness towards the

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Speaker 3: future beyond occupation and colonial It is not fair that

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Speaker 3: Palestinians have to bear that burden of maintaining that kind

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Speaker 3: of optimism and resilience and all that kind of stuff

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Speaker 3: in the face of all the horrors that they've experienced,

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Speaker 3: like nobody should have to experience that.

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Speaker 2: We then asked Ava what the impact of solidarity actions

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Speaker 2: around the world have on the people of Palestine.

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Speaker 3: I think it is important to talk. I think it's

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Speaker 3: really unsatisfying kind of activism, as many kinds of activism are,

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Speaker 3: because it's hard to convince people who are already decided

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Speaker 3: they're against you, and it's also painful and exhausting and

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Speaker 3: usually not helpful. And also it doesn't feel particularly helpful

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Speaker 3: just to like rev up people that do agree with you.

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Speaker 3: But I think that people continuing to show up and

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Speaker 3: not letting it rest, not letting that energy die, not

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Speaker 3: letting this administration feel like anyone's forgotten about the ways

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Speaker 3: that they failed. Also, BDS, please learn about BOYCOPDA investment

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Speaker 3: and instinction. The Israeli government also really is scared of that.

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Speaker 3: They view it as terrorism to do more of it.

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Speaker 3: Not saying that people should do terrorism, but do BDS,

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Speaker 3: which is not terrorism. Decidedly no.

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Speaker 2: I'm glad you brought that up, because that's what the

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Speaker 2: students are protesting. They want their universities to divest.

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Speaker 3: I do think that people should learn more about BDS

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Speaker 3: because a lot of the public knowledge and information promoted

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Speaker 3: about BDS stuff is different from it, and that's fine.

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Speaker 3: I think that Starbucks and McDonald's and all these other

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Speaker 3: companies that are actually not BDS targets being scared to

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Speaker 3: be associated with Israeli occupation state is also good. Don't

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Speaker 3: get so much on a high horse about colonialism. Also

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Speaker 3: learn about like the colonial history and reality of North

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Speaker 3: America and try to work towards like supporting nentip clinial

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Speaker 3: struggle there, because to me feels like the utmost of

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Speaker 3: hypocrisy to be like I know and the last ongoing

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Speaker 3: occupation in the world and ignore the occupation that you

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Speaker 3: might be living on and benefit from. Personally, I think

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Speaker 3: that I think it insulates. I think it does important

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Speaker 3: work towards BILLY and building international solidarity and building anti

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Speaker 3: colonial resistance around the world. To talk about the interconnection

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Speaker 3: between different kinds of colonialism and anti colonial struggle, and

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Speaker 3: it also insulates our movements against claims of anti Semitism

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Speaker 3: and other things to be like, no, it's nothing special

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Speaker 3: about the Israeli state. Israeli state is a really bad

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Speaker 3: example of settler colonialism, as is the United States, as

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Speaker 3: is Canada, and be able to talk about all of

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Speaker 3: those things as different sides of the same kinds of

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Speaker 3: like genocidal systems.

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Speaker 2: In addition to sharing her impressions of Palestine with us,

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Speaker 2: Ava also shared some moments of her day to day

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Speaker 2: life there. These small moments of joy are something that war,

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Speaker 2: genocide and violence try to take from Palestinian people, and

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Speaker 2: so the experience of joy is a form of resistance

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Speaker 2: in itself.

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Speaker 3: I am here in a tiny courtyard. There are birds

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Speaker 3: chirping you can see, or some sounds of the street.

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Speaker 3: I can see some flowers and beautiful plants, next to

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Speaker 3: an incredibly fancy house that a family fled from and

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Speaker 3: is now renting to the organization I'm working with, and

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Speaker 3: in turn housing also another family of one of the

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Speaker 3: doctors here. And so it feels so strangely peaceful, very

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Speaker 3: confusing to the senses. Anyway, that's enough for now. I'm

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Speaker 3: signing off by.

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Speaker 2: If there's anything that you want people to know that

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Speaker 2: we haven't seen or like that hasn't been being showed,

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Speaker 2: Like I know, the actual atrocity is far, far greater

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Speaker 2: than the stiffers we're seeing, But I guess, having been

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Speaker 2: on the ground, what is something that maybe you want

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Speaker 2: people to know that we aren't getting across on our phones.

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Speaker 3: I guess the best way I can answer that is, like,

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Speaker 3: it's not particularly original, but remembering that cousins are just people,

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Speaker 3: and they're living their lives and trying to exist. They're

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Speaker 3: just people, and everyone and everything that they've known has

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Speaker 3: been irrevocably altered, whether they've been murdered, seriously injured, had

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Speaker 3: their entire family taken from them and never recovered. All

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Speaker 3: the landmarks they grew up around, all the trees that

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Speaker 3: they hung out under, all the places that they prayed

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Speaker 3: and ate and got into trouble, everything has gone. And

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Speaker 3: thirty some thousand murdered, sixty some thousand injured does not

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Speaker 3: represent any part of anywhere near the majority of the

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Speaker 3: horror that people are experiencing. But I think it's worthwhile

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Speaker 3: remembering that and also that like numbers are not at

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Speaker 3: all representative, and also just thought like some people are

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Speaker 3: political here, some people are critical, most of them They'll

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Speaker 3: give you damn. I just want to live.

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Speaker 1: It Could Happen Here as a production of cool Zone Media.

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Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

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Speaker 1: monthly at cool zonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening,