Speaker 1: We're actually going to add a laugh track into this episode,
Speaker 1: perfect so that everyone knows when we're being funny.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 3: That's part of my rider whenever I do a podcast,
Speaker 3: is that I need to come laughter.
Speaker 2: She's sheen Ami, no ma, not my name? Yo? What
Speaker 2: is your childhood? I am a chuck, yo?
Speaker 4: What's going down?
Speaker 3: Before one.
Speaker 1: Round? Welcome to like a virgin. I'm rose dom you.
Speaker 1: Fran is not here at the moment because she is
Speaker 1: on fire Island for no know the millionth time this.
Speaker 1: I was going to say this summer, but it's not
Speaker 1: even summer anymore. It's literally fall. We took a few
Speaker 1: weeks off, but we are back today with a brand
Speaker 1: new episode and it's a good one. We've been holding
Speaker 1: onto this for a while. Today we have an episode
Speaker 1: with George Siveris, comedian and host of Stradio Lab, which
Speaker 1: Frand and I were on a couple of months ago.
Speaker 1: Definitely go listen to that. And we talked to George
Speaker 1: all about Will and Grace. Yes, this is all about
Speaker 1: musty TV. This is must listen podcasting. Will and Grace
Speaker 1: is obviously, you know, very iconic and like formative gay media,
Speaker 1: and we had a lot of fun talking about it.
Speaker 1: So without further ado, here comes George to talk with
Speaker 1: us all about Will and Grace and Jack and Karen.
Speaker 1: I'm imagining that as one of those T shirts where
Speaker 1: it's like, you know, the different characters listed like Harry
Speaker 1: and Hermione and Ron. Oh, it all comes back to
Speaker 1: Harry Potter, doesn't it. Do you want even more like
Speaker 1: a virgin content? Well, you should become a patron at
Speaker 1: patreon dot com slash like a virgin. We do weekly
Speaker 1: bonus episodes talking about you know, the TV shows, we're watching,
Speaker 1: the books, we're reading DBD commentaries, all that good stuff.
Speaker 1: So become a patron now and get into the gig. Honey. Okay, George,
Speaker 1: I want to know are you Are you a Will,
Speaker 1: a Jack, a Grace or a Karen?
Speaker 3: I mean the deepest, darkest Before I answered, let me
Speaker 3: just say this because I sent you guys or yeah,
Speaker 3: what if I was like I'm a Rosario Born, you know,
Speaker 3: like through and through, I'm actually more of a Leslie
Speaker 3: Jordan may hear rest in peace. Okay, I sent you
Speaker 3: guys three topic and I was sort of looking at
Speaker 3: them and I was like, this is the most like
Speaker 3: white faggot, like could.
Speaker 2: Not be it was true.
Speaker 3: The three topics were literally a forgotten Madonna album, Will
Speaker 3: and Grace, forgotten by the world maybe but by me,
Speaker 3: and and the which I appreciate.
Speaker 2: And the third one was Joan.
Speaker 3: Rivers And I was like, this is because there is
Speaker 3: a world in which I could have tried to be
Speaker 3: like you know, I like you know, highbrow things too.
Speaker 3: I could have been like b York, you know Apple,
Speaker 3: But I was like, no, I want to look into
Speaker 3: like the depths of my depravity, of like what are
Speaker 3: the things that truly, if I'm being honest with myself,
Speaker 3: like affected me, even if they're embarrassing now. And and sadly, no,
Speaker 3: I appreciate that. That was very brave of you.
Speaker 1: And when our producer texted us, I did hear the
Speaker 1: sound of a giant fan with the words clash.
Speaker 2: Whenever I sound on an email.
Speaker 5: Yes, it was giving, like it was giving like the
Speaker 5: gay it It was like, all are the most extreme
Speaker 5: versions of like that of the culture. But like I
Speaker 5: actually am curious because they I thought they were great topics.
Speaker 5: I had no I cast no judgment on that trio.
Speaker 5: But what is aside from being gay? What is the
Speaker 5: through line of those three cultural objects, because they said,
Speaker 5: I felt like I knew I learned so much about
Speaker 5: you just by the volunteering of those things.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I mean there's a sort of like grotesque ye in,
Speaker 3: sort of like the late nineties early aughts, white gay
Speaker 3: male It's like when it was starting to peek into
Speaker 3: the mainstream. And I feel like Will and Grace was
Speaker 3: part of that. I feel like people like, I mean,
Speaker 3: Joan Rivers has such a rich history without you know,
Speaker 3: she's not just a gay ac on, She's many other
Speaker 3: things and whatever. But like, in terms of my life,
Speaker 3: it was like these female comedians like Joan Rivers and
Speaker 3: Kathy Griffin and Margaret cho it was like people that
Speaker 3: appealed to basically the the Jack McFarlands of the world.
Speaker 2: Hmmm.
Speaker 1: I was gonna say that when you presented us with
Speaker 1: those three options, I was thinking of them as sort
Speaker 1: of a maiden mother Crone archetype. But Madonna and Joan
Speaker 1: Rivers are both the Krone, and they're also both the Mother. Okay,
Speaker 1: but I still want to know who are you of it?
Speaker 3: I mean again, I mean the really sort of human
Speaker 3: If I'm being honest with myself. The humiliating thing of
Speaker 3: it is that I am a will like I am
Speaker 3: like a basic sort of as much as I would
Speaker 3: like to pretend otherwise, a sort of like on the
Speaker 3: way to assimilation, white gay guy who works a desk job.
Speaker 2: You know what I mean?
Speaker 3: Like it's I mean every I mean, yes, I sort of.
Speaker 3: You could argue I'm a creative like Jack, but it's
Speaker 3: with a sort of like I'm not like punk rock
Speaker 3: doing cabaret shows like I am very much doing it.
Speaker 2: By the book, was Jack punk?
Speaker 4: Right?
Speaker 2: I mean, listen to many he was Jack? Jack is
Speaker 2: Jack is the vomit artist from is.
Speaker 1: A performance artist. Jack is rave culture. Jack is a
Speaker 1: yeah jacket. Jack is Byork Yeah yeah so, And and
Speaker 1: just if I have the bravery to be a Jack
Speaker 1: McFarland in the sense of being b York, I would,
Speaker 1: But instead I am Katie Perry witness Era fran fran
Speaker 1: I'm gonna ask you the same question, who of the
Speaker 1: four are you? This is the sex and the citification
Speaker 1: of pop culture.
Speaker 4: I think I I think I'm Debra Messing. I think
Speaker 4: I'm I think I'm.
Speaker 6: Grace Oh my god, you so I think that?
Speaker 5: But George you know, I see Will for you in
Speaker 5: like a more positive way.
Speaker 4: Like Will is the character.
Speaker 5: That tends to have like the bird's eye view of
Speaker 5: like what's going on totally, like the kind of the
Speaker 5: one that's like, hey, can we all keep it together
Speaker 5: for like one second, you know, but also like manages
Speaker 5: to slide into hysteria very quick, yes, which is very
Speaker 5: relatable and human relatable.
Speaker 3: He's also I mean, he's a neurotic. He feels constantly slighted.
Speaker 3: Again I'm describing both me myself and him, you know, neurotic,
Speaker 3: constantly slighted, sort of like really loves uh, really embraces
Speaker 3: being gay and loves being in gay spaces, but then
Speaker 3: there's always something that sets him off and he's like,
Speaker 3: I'm god, you know, like that's sort of me at
Speaker 3: a gay bar.
Speaker 1: But also like but he also like there's this thing
Speaker 1: of like he doesn't he's not like a certain kind.
Speaker 2: Right, well, that's the dream.
Speaker 1: He's a very like corporate gay like Matt, like straight
Speaker 1: passing gay in some ways interesting for any I Okay,
Speaker 1: I know we've we've gotten pretty far into this convo,
Speaker 1: but for the virgins listening, I do want to just
Speaker 1: provide a little context. We are talking about Will and Grace,
Speaker 1: the NBC sitcom which started in nineteen ninety eight, starring
Speaker 1: Deborah Messing, Eric McCormick, Megan Malalley, and Sean Hayes. It's
Speaker 1: about a duo of best friends. I think the series
Speaker 1: starts because Grace breaks up with the boyfriend and has
Speaker 1: to move in with her gay friend Will, who she
Speaker 1: at one point was in love with Taylor as old
Speaker 1: as time. She has an assistant who's wealthy and works
Speaker 1: for her for some reason, Karen. And then Will's next
Speaker 1: door neighbor is Jack, a very flamboyant gay man who
Speaker 1: is very much the sort of like other gays that
Speaker 1: Will is not like, and yet he absolutely is. So yeah,
Speaker 1: that's what the show's about. It ran from It ran
Speaker 1: for eight seasons in the original run, and then came
Speaker 1: back for I think a two season revival. Okay, so George,
Speaker 1: your Will, fran Is Grace.
Speaker 6: And you are Rosario. Now I'm Karen.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean it's you're You're the character most capable
Speaker 5: of murder.
Speaker 4: Splash has murdered probably.
Speaker 6: I'll never tell, just like Britney Murphy.
Speaker 3: But I also sort of appreciate Abou Karen is that
Speaker 3: there's a sort of mythology around her, as though she's
Speaker 3: kind of an otherworldly like she could be one hundred
Speaker 3: and fifty years old. She like will talk about her
Speaker 3: past and like imply that she was, you know, in
Speaker 3: the civil in like World War two or something like.
Speaker 2: It's very.
Speaker 3: I don't know, it's very it's almost I mean, it's
Speaker 3: a it's sort of on par with maybe not a Phoebe,
Speaker 3: but like definitely a Samantha from Sex and the City.
Speaker 6: Totally.
Speaker 1: Yeah, she is a figure who we are meant to
Speaker 1: understand like is kind of primordial and like has existed
Speaker 1: since Adonic time. She also, like I mean, the thing is,
Speaker 1: as with many sitcoms, if you go back and watch
Speaker 1: the first season of Will and Grace, it's like a
Speaker 1: little bit different than The characterizations especially are a little
Speaker 1: bit different than what they evolved into. Like Karen is
Speaker 1: not quite as much of a pill pop in Boozehound
Speaker 1: as she would come to be in later seasons.
Speaker 6: I will never forget that.
Speaker 1: I think they did two live episodes and there's one
Speaker 1: in which Karen there's a visual gag where Karen opens
Speaker 1: up her pill cabinet and it's just like a shoot
Speaker 1: with pills, like like shooting out of it, and it's
Speaker 1: so credible.
Speaker 2: That episode also guest stars Matt Lower.
Speaker 6: Yeah, well it is.
Speaker 3: It's an NBC and in fact, I'm sorry to you know,
Speaker 3: sort of go down this path. But a running gag
Speaker 3: in that episode is that basically Karen is serving this
Speaker 3: huge party that she throws every year that she has
Speaker 3: never invited Will and Grace to because she's embarrassed with
Speaker 3: them because it's all high profile people and celebrities, and
Speaker 3: she accidentally, through I think a mistake of hers, invited
Speaker 3: them this one year. So they're so excited to be
Speaker 3: the well with celebrities, and the entirety of the live
Speaker 3: episode takes place in the bathroom as they're each sort
Speaker 3: of like going in and out of the room, and
Speaker 3: Grace is doing this game where she's trying to touch
Speaker 3: as many famous people's butts as possible, and so one
Speaker 3: of the people she gets.
Speaker 2: Not a part of part of the people she gets
Speaker 2: is Matt Lower, ironically, and then like there's.
Speaker 3: A gag where she like kind of does it, she
Speaker 3: like gets his butt, and then he like looks at
Speaker 3: her and he's like, you already got me.
Speaker 4: That's kind of funny.
Speaker 1: Yeah, a little bit of yeah, a little bit of
Speaker 1: reverse foreshadowing. Well, you know, there's plenty of stuff that
Speaker 1: was done and said over the course of Will and
Speaker 1: Grace that would not fly now. I yesterday and preparation
Speaker 1: for this and also for my own enjoyment, I watched
Speaker 1: all of the Will and Grace Christmas episodes and there's
Speaker 1: one in which, through hanging out with Grace, Will's mom
Speaker 1: played by the incredible Blive Dianner, who gave us not
Speaker 1: only this character but also Gena Paltrow, it learns the
Speaker 1: word fagola, which is.
Speaker 6: Not something she should say. I wonder.
Speaker 1: Fagela is a Yiddish word for gay person or it's
Speaker 1: like saying fag in it is it is? Yeah, I
Speaker 1: wonder did they ever say fag on Will and Grace?
Speaker 3: You know, I think, I mean, maybe I'm wrong, but
Speaker 3: I feel like they may have.
Speaker 4: It's entirely possible they can say it.
Speaker 6: They can say it.
Speaker 4: I don't think they've said it.
Speaker 2: I mean maybe the revival.
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a sort of like something that's gonna google,
Speaker 3: something that's sort of fascinating about Will and Grace and
Speaker 3: about a lot of like gay pop culture at the time,
Speaker 3: is like because of a combination of the fact that
Speaker 3: it's written by largely straight people, or by by many
Speaker 3: straight people, not exclusively, but it's written by many straight people,
Speaker 3: and also that people didn't have anything to compare it
Speaker 3: to because there wasn't that much mainstream gay media. The
Speaker 3: like rules of what's inappropriate and what's not inappropriate just
Speaker 3: like had not been set in stone yet. So some
Speaker 3: of it ends up being almost accidentally extremely subversive, just
Speaker 3: like some of it ends up being incredibly offensive and
Speaker 3: like transphobic and racist and whatever else. But some of
Speaker 3: it because they were just like going blind, Like now
Speaker 3: you're like, oh, this is in fact more subversive than
Speaker 3: like the queer meat, like than Bros.
Speaker 2: You know what I mean.
Speaker 1: Like, I think we could definitively say Will and Grace
Speaker 1: is more subversive than Bros.
Speaker 6: In almost every way.
Speaker 1: Although I mean, I hate to get to go this
Speaker 1: deep this early into this conversation, but was was aids
Speaker 1: ever mentioned in the entirety of Will and Grace?
Speaker 3: I know that's I don't think it was a running theme,
Speaker 3: but it wasn't a bit, not a bit. I mean,
Speaker 3: if they were really brave. They would just play it
Speaker 3: for laughs, of course, But yeah, but I do think
Speaker 3: there was sort of well, you know what, actually I
Speaker 3: remember this one episode and actually this is sort of
Speaker 3: like kind of a a window into the darkness of
Speaker 3: the soul of Will and Grace. Is like there was
Speaker 3: an episode where Jack and Will meet this gay elder
Speaker 3: and he's like this guy who's maybe in his sixties
Speaker 3: or seventies, and he wants to save this gay independent
Speaker 3: bookstore and because they're turning it into like a luxury gym,
Speaker 3: and so Jack and Will are very moved by it
Speaker 3: and they help him raise money. But the sort of
Speaker 3: gag at the end is that actually Jack and Will
Speaker 3: want it to be turned into a luxury gym because
Speaker 3: that's like more what they want than in but it's.
Speaker 2: Sort of like they want to cru but it's sort
Speaker 2: of like.
Speaker 3: There's something almost more honest about like if it's like
Speaker 3: if that were to happen now on like some sort
Speaker 3: of Netflix show that my mom watches, they would all
Speaker 3: come together and save the bookstore, you know what I mean,
Speaker 3: or like the luxury gym owner would be this huge villain.
Speaker 2: And it was sort of.
Speaker 3: Crazy that like they really did. They were honest about
Speaker 3: the fact that Will and Jack, as urban white gay
Speaker 3: man wanted the luxury gym more than they wanted to
Speaker 3: support like their queer elder. Like, so that's what I'm
Speaker 3: mean in progress, Yeah, exactly, Like that's what it's almost like,
Speaker 3: it's almost like very honest about things like that.
Speaker 2: Accidentally, Like I don't know, I think it is.
Speaker 5: I think it is like you're being facetious about it
Speaker 5: being progressed. But I actually do think that that is
Speaker 5: like what's missing from a lot of the things that
Speaker 5: are now correctively trying to commentate on what's going on
Speaker 5: right now. And I think the thing that like must
Speaker 5: be said about Will and Grace and like the climate
Speaker 5: that it came out in, it has a lot to
Speaker 5: do with the fact that they weren't trying to solve
Speaker 5: for anything, right like with the Bros comparison, Bros And
Speaker 5: we love all the people involved, but like Bros existed
Speaker 5: to solve a problem, you know, like it's it's solved.
Speaker 5: It was trying to solve a problem about the inclusion
Speaker 5: of queer character and brom coms and Will and Grace
Speaker 5: arrived on the scene being like we don't want to
Speaker 5: say anything.
Speaker 4: And in you know, nineteen ninety eight, like.
Speaker 5: By this time, it's like they've gone through the AIDS crisis.
Speaker 5: Freddie Mercury Ellen on Time saying Yep, I'm gay. Bill
Speaker 5: Clinton was the first president to like acknowledge gay people
Speaker 5: as like a voter base in general. Right, Like, there's
Speaker 5: so many kind of like landmarks that had been achieved
Speaker 5: to lay the path for it, so that by the
Speaker 5: time it arrived, which like it was essentially an overnight success.
Speaker 5: It was like by its first season it was like
Speaker 5: prime time highest rated show.
Speaker 2: It was musty TV.
Speaker 6: Honey.
Speaker 5: Yes, it was all of a sudden given permission to
Speaker 5: be as quote unquote problematic as it wants to.
Speaker 4: With that luxury gym thing.
Speaker 5: I think the luxury gym thing like kind of perfectly
Speaker 5: encapsulates what made Will and Grace really ahead of its time,
Speaker 5: which was that it was agnostic of a lot of
Speaker 5: the baggage that had come before it, which is like
Speaker 5: most people, most gay people that appeared on TV screens
Speaker 5: dieedab ads, right, And here is like an audience of
Speaker 5: people that are kind of sick of the whole AIDS thing, unfortunately,
Speaker 5: and so of course, it makes sense that the entire
Speaker 5: first run of Will and Grace would not mention AIDS
Speaker 5: once during the entire Yeah, they.
Speaker 6: Just wanted to be the fabulous, Like that's what it
Speaker 6: was all.
Speaker 3: And guess what mission accomplished, Sweetie. To your point Fran
Speaker 3: about it, I think you're so like dead on that
Speaker 3: it is. It could only have existed in late Clinton
Speaker 3: era because it is sort of like there's a sort of.
Speaker 2: Post AIDS.
Speaker 3: And I'm saying that in quotes. I understand that we're
Speaker 3: not actually in a post AIDS era, but for the
Speaker 3: average viewer, like a sort of post AIDS gay life
Speaker 3: almost gave them permission to be less serious about that
Speaker 3: stuff in the same way that we that like earlier
Speaker 3: Bamba era pop culture was like trying to be post
Speaker 3: race almost. It was sort of like, well, we've like
Speaker 3: exactly acknowledged gay people, and now we can have a
Speaker 3: sitcom about it, just like you know, we have a
Speaker 3: black president, now we can have you know, the show
Speaker 3: Happy Endings.
Speaker 4: Yeah kind of yeah.
Speaker 5: And it's it's kind of like to say like something
Speaker 5: is like ahead of its time is usually like code
Speaker 5: for like it's really dated now, but like it was,
Speaker 5: it was. It was ahead of its time, and like
Speaker 5: I remember, like last decade when Biden was like, Will
Speaker 5: and Grace probably did more to educate the American public
Speaker 5: on the LGBTQ community than anything else. He's not one
Speaker 5: hundred percent wrong.
Speaker 2: Well right, yeah, you know, she's.
Speaker 5: Because it was so massive, And I think that a lot,
Speaker 5: because the show itself was not burdened by the weight
Speaker 5: of quote unquote educating people. That's probably why everyone hates
Speaker 5: the show, because.
Speaker 6: It was about normalized.
Speaker 4: It didn't stand for everything.
Speaker 5: But I think that and I don't really know necessarily
Speaker 5: how the creators felt about like aids or like gay activists,
Speaker 5: but like I could imagine that by the mid late nineties,
Speaker 5: everyone is all gay people are sick of Larry Kramer,
Speaker 5: sick of act up, sick of like being you know,
Speaker 5: it's it's just it's a empathy fatigue, right, It's like
Speaker 5: what we felt like in the Trump era, where it's
Speaker 5: just like, I'm actually, I don't want to listen to
Speaker 5: this anymore. I need something that's just stupid and sexy
Speaker 5: and fun.
Speaker 1: And that's kind of okay, But I want to ask
Speaker 1: an important question, is Will and Grace for gay people
Speaker 1: or is it for stray people?
Speaker 6: And I think we I think we know the answer.
Speaker 3: I mean, it's funny because I do think at the
Speaker 3: time it was for straight people, and I almost think
Speaker 3: that maybe like it's long tail, like maybe it was.
Speaker 3: I feel like now it's for gay people. Like I
Speaker 3: feel like now nostalgically looking back on it, I'm like,
Speaker 3: this is fun in a sort of it's almost like
Speaker 3: watching a drag show or so, I mean, Karen is
Speaker 3: like a drag character, like you know, it's it's sort
Speaker 3: of like, yeah, I don't know, you can view it
Speaker 3: through a different lens and have it be fun for
Speaker 3: a gay audience. But I do think at the time
Speaker 3: it was certainly sold as like, look how normal this is?
Speaker 3: Look kind normal this is? Don't like, oh way, look
Speaker 3: how normal this is?
Speaker 1: You know, and yeah, and I'm sure like growing up
Speaker 1: as as you know, like little queer kids, there's like
Speaker 1: at first an element of like I don't want to
Speaker 1: like this thing because I don't want people to think
Speaker 1: I'm gay, And then it's like I don't want to
Speaker 1: like this thing because it's like it's lame. It's like,
Speaker 1: you know, it's like normalizing queerness. It's first three people,
Speaker 1: and now I think you're totally right that it's like
Speaker 1: looking back on it and you're like, wait, this actually
Speaker 1: like is absolutely for me and my sensibility, and like
Speaker 1: is for queer people like more than anyone else, because
Speaker 1: we are the ones who like get the references and
Speaker 1: get the humor and like it is exactly our taste
Speaker 1: and our point of view.
Speaker 3: It's also like, I mean, there's a way in which
Speaker 3: if they wanted to really sort of do this like
Speaker 3: respectability politics, normalizing gay people whatever, they they could have
Speaker 3: made the characters like way.
Speaker 2: More respectable than they are.
Speaker 3: I mean Jack is still like a sereny, screechy like
Speaker 3: sort of you know, in quote gay stereotype. And then
Speaker 3: even Will, who's meant to be like the more respectable one,
Speaker 3: is very like sort of like neurotic in this quintessentially
Speaker 3: gay way. Like he certainly is someone who actual gay
Speaker 3: people can see themselves in. So I think, like it
Speaker 3: almost like it's slightly better than it needs to be,
Speaker 3: and I think maybe that's why it has at least
Speaker 3: a little bit of lasting power.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I mean it has, like, of course it
Speaker 1: has aged poorly in some cases, but it's still funny. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, like going back and rewatching it, the jokes
Speaker 1: still hit. It's very well written, you know, it's like
Speaker 1: a very well crafted sitcom. I also like the but
Speaker 1: you know, I don't see Will and Jacka's being sexless,
Speaker 1: Like obviously it's not like we ever got you know.
Speaker 1: It's like, because this was airing at the same time
Speaker 1: as Queer as Folk, like that is a huge counterpoint.
Speaker 6: It's not like we ever got like rimming on Will
Speaker 6: and Grace.
Speaker 1: But like Will and Jack they looked like they they
Speaker 1: were always dating, they always had boyfriends.
Speaker 3: And like maybe the word rimming was not said, but
Speaker 3: it was implied, like there were like dirty jokes.
Speaker 2: Sure, sure.
Speaker 5: I always think it's interesting that when when we get
Speaker 5: that critique, when people are always like, oh, they were
Speaker 5: so sexless, the gay characters didn't get to have sex.
Speaker 5: And I was like, wait, but like every other joke
Speaker 5: is about a boy, Like yeah, I was like, what
Speaker 5: is that?
Speaker 3: And also I'm now, this is what I was gonna
Speaker 3: say before that I forgot. There's a part I remember specifically,
Speaker 3: there's a sort of meta joke at some point where
Speaker 3: Will says something kind of avertly sexual and then Grace
Speaker 3: is like, don't say that, Will America doesn't like to
Speaker 3: see you as sexual, like, and it's just sort of
Speaker 3: joke on the And I those are the little pockets
Speaker 3: of not to say that that's so subversive, but like,
Speaker 3: those are the little pockets of knowing this that I
Speaker 3: think honestly make it a way more interesting show than
Speaker 3: like a Friends.
Speaker 2: Or something that was on at the same time.
Speaker 5: The show Friends, Friends did not know and I think
Speaker 5: that they understood at the strategic level, like what they
Speaker 5: could and couldn't do with gay identity in public exactly
Speaker 5: in public opinion. And I think that you know, when
Speaker 5: you ask the question is that is this for gay
Speaker 5: or straight people? It would not have been successful if
Speaker 5: it was for gay people, right, Like straight people writ
Speaker 5: large had to give this show its massive popularity in
Speaker 5: order for it to be platformed and successful, right, And
Speaker 5: so like the fact that it was massive and then
Speaker 5: had all of these select you mean Matt Lauer aside,
Speaker 5: like all these celebrities guess starring like Madonna and Matt Damon,
Speaker 5: Jenna Jackson, yeah, Share Jay l Brittany, like all the people.
Speaker 5: And it's like that creates legitimacy, right, and like the
Speaker 5: legitimacy and like the kind of acceptance into mainstream culture
Speaker 5: that the show I guess laid out. It's like what
Speaker 5: gave kids who would watch it at during during its
Speaker 5: run permission to be themselves. You're like, Oh, if they're accepted,
Speaker 5: then maybe i'll be accepted too. Write it's like funny
Speaker 5: because like assimilation is like the number one critique of
Speaker 5: the show, and yet like assimilation is kind of why
Speaker 5: the show.
Speaker 4: Was as impactful as it was totally.
Speaker 3: And again, I don't know why I keep bringing up
Speaker 3: Happy Endings, but I was thinking because I was, I
Speaker 3: don't know, it was in the news or for some
Speaker 3: reason recently. And if you take a show like Happy Endings,
Speaker 3: which has have you every seen Happy Endings ever?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 4: What is that about it?
Speaker 2: So it's a show that was it's very Obama era.
Speaker 3: It's like probably I want to say, like twenty ten
Speaker 3: or something, and it's like Casey Wilson's in it. It's
Speaker 3: like a good fun cast, but there's a gay character.
Speaker 3: And the entire sort of running joke about the gay
Speaker 3: character is that he's kind of like the biggest slob
Speaker 3: of all of it, but like he's like very for
Speaker 3: lack of a better term, straight acting. He's like kind
Speaker 3: of a slacker and perpetually unemployed and doesn't dress well
Speaker 3: and is a slob and whatever, and he is part
Speaker 3: of this friend group that is all straight people except him,
Speaker 3: and it's like we're so post gay that they can
Speaker 3: all joke about it and blah blah. And I almost
Speaker 3: feel like something like that is way more pro assimilation
Speaker 3: or conservative than Will and Grace. I mean, Will and
Speaker 3: Grace is essentially portraying like this sort of like many
Speaker 3: chosen family that's like two really oh like absolutely gay
Speaker 3: guys and two women that are like unmarried or I mean,
Speaker 3: I guess Karen is married, but like two women whose
Speaker 3: husbands you don't see.
Speaker 1: Yeah at various at various times, she isn't isn't married,
Speaker 1: and Grace isn't isn't married. But yeah, I was watching
Speaker 1: that episode with the one of the Christmas episodes with
Speaker 1: Blithe Danner and the four of them go to Will's
Speaker 1: mom's house for Christmas like they are a family and
Speaker 1: not only got more and more explicit as the show
Speaker 1: went on, And I think maybe more than anything, that's
Speaker 1: what Will and Grace like kind of presented to the
Speaker 1: world was like one of the first real examples of
Speaker 1: what like a queer Chosen Family could look like, because
Speaker 1: I honestly think looking at something like happy endings, which
Speaker 1: honestly I haven't I haven't watched enough of the show
Speaker 1: to maybe like make this generalization, but I kind of
Speaker 1: think that feels more dated than.
Speaker 3: No, it's one hundred percent, I think, Like, honestly, I
Speaker 3: think sometimes Wow, not to make the biggest generalation of all,
Speaker 3: but I do think sometimes Obama era stuff seems more
Speaker 3: dated than Clinton era stuff in a weird way.
Speaker 2: Like no, yeah, no, I feel that the sort.
Speaker 3: Of kumbaya like everyone's the same spirit of both of
Speaker 3: those eras, it feels way more forced during the Obama era.
Speaker 3: It's sort of like we're like not allowed to look
Speaker 3: at anything ugly ever, whereas at least in the nineties
Speaker 3: you were like not everything was like algorithmically calculated to
Speaker 3: like appeal to a demographic.
Speaker 2: Or whatever anyway. So but yeah, I totally agree.
Speaker 3: I also, I mean in terms of the Chosen Family
Speaker 3: of it all, Like I remember when Will and Grace
Speaker 3: tried to have a baby together. That was like one
Speaker 3: of the only times the show I ever sort of got
Speaker 3: serious because what happened was Grace then met Leo played
Speaker 3: by Harry Connick Junior, and so who is it really
Speaker 3: is the best that I ever looked as is Woody Harrelson,
Speaker 3: also playing Grace's boyfriend.
Speaker 2: By the way, his breakout role, Grace had some really.
Speaker 3: Good I mean, I want to like go back to
Speaker 3: the guest stars because that's actually one of the most
Speaker 3: fascinating parts of Will and Grace. But so Grace sort
Speaker 3: of was planning on having a baby with her gay
Speaker 3: best friend, but then met a a Jewish doctor, which
Speaker 3: is her dream, and then she was like, wait, but
Speaker 3: I have to see where this goes. I can't have
Speaker 3: a baby with my gay best friend yet. And they
Speaker 3: get into this real fight about it, and it's kind
Speaker 3: of I mean, it's kind of something you would never
Speaker 3: see on TV. And I don't even know if you've
Speaker 3: seen it since, Like it's such a specific experience of
Speaker 3: like that generation of you know, assimilating gay men who
Speaker 3: still didn't have you know, domestic partnerships and gay marriage
Speaker 3: and whatever could adopt or whatever. So I do think
Speaker 3: in those ways, it was in its own way ahead
Speaker 3: of its time. Again through this very narrow about this
Speaker 3: very narrow.
Speaker 2: Slipper of the game.
Speaker 6: Okay.
Speaker 1: Something that has always bugs me and like does seem
Speaker 1: slightly unrealistic is the fact that Jack and Will never know.
Speaker 3: There is a say gag midway through where they're like
Speaker 3: they wake up they're in like a cruise ship or
Speaker 3: some thing, or they're in Karen's yeah, I remember, and
Speaker 3: they wake up naked next to each other. I think
Speaker 3: it's revealed that they ultimately that had not had sex,
Speaker 3: but it's like it's sort of a running gag, and
Speaker 3: I think you're so right in that, like the final
Speaker 3: step it doesn't take is the fact that if they
Speaker 3: were actually gay friends, they would have fucked and it
Speaker 3: would have been okay.
Speaker 2: And I feel like that's the version of it.
Speaker 1: It wouldn't have had to be a whole thing that
Speaker 1: they would have just had or or it would have
Speaker 1: happened long before the show started. They would have had
Speaker 1: sex once. And you know, there is a very iconic
Speaker 1: Thanksgiving two parter flashback episode about when Will came out
Speaker 1: to Grace and Jack is sort of Will's like entree
Speaker 1: into gay life and like his mentor a little bit,
Speaker 1: and Jack clearly has a crush on him, and I
Speaker 1: do think that running joke is maybe brought back a
Speaker 1: couple times. It's like probably part of the reason why
Speaker 1: Jack is constantly nagging Will is like he probably does
Speaker 1: have a bit of a thing for him. But yeah,
Speaker 1: like realistically they would have one time, like at some
Speaker 1: fucking gay club, hooked up and then been like, oh, yeah, whatever,
Speaker 1: let's just put friends.
Speaker 3: And not just Jack. Like you don't see that dynamic
Speaker 3: at all throughout the show. They don't have other like
Speaker 3: because they do have a group of gay friends, but
Speaker 3: there's never any sexual history among any of them.
Speaker 2: It's like this couple that has adopted a child.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and they would all be fucking fucking together. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they would be having group sex while Grace was on,
Speaker 1: you know, with Leo.
Speaker 5: Because because they're like so white and so upper class,
Speaker 5: like there is a kind of like like odorless gass
Speaker 5: of like conservatism that's like in some of them. And
Speaker 5: I kind of wonder if like whoever was writing however
Speaker 5: they were writing the show, is like maybe like rich
Speaker 5: gays don't hook up with their friends like they maybe
Speaker 5: there's sluts, but it's like there's some like kind of
Speaker 5: emotional conservative like guardrail around sex meaning something or something
Speaker 5: I don't know.
Speaker 2: Well, it's also the aids.
Speaker 3: I mean, it's also again like the late nineties post
Speaker 3: AIGs thing where it's like, well, if we're not a
Speaker 3: dressing that, then we're certainly not having them all, like
Speaker 3: going around having sex with one another, Like.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, well I think also it's probably that because
Speaker 1: there were so many straight people having their hands on
Speaker 1: the show, Like straight people truly cannot conceptualize of a
Speaker 1: world in which you have casual sex with your friends
Speaker 1: and then.
Speaker 3: Stay ye and like it's they just and also as
Speaker 3: accepting as they were and as accepting as straight people
Speaker 3: can be in their hearts, they still think what every
Speaker 3: gay person wants is to settle down and have children
Speaker 3: in a monogamous relationship. Like it's more of a recent
Speaker 3: thing to be like accepting of other romantic lifestyles.
Speaker 1: I feel, yeah, like polyamory, which, according according to TikTok,
Speaker 1: polyamorous people are like the most you know, maligned and marginalized.
Speaker 2: People, and we are marching at dawn.
Speaker 1: I'm not marching for for polyamorous people.
Speaker 5: Okay, So speaking of like Will and Jack, I do
Speaker 5: remember in the last season there is this moment that
Speaker 5: happens that centers around the idea of a gay kiss
Speaker 5: on TV, and I do like how Will and Grace
Speaker 5: is continuously like meta, like you can tell like what
Speaker 5: they're aware of, what they can get away with or whatever.
Speaker 5: And in the actual episode, Will and Jack are anticipating
Speaker 5: what is supposed to be. Isn't it supposed to be
Speaker 5: like the first gay kiss on h on network television
Speaker 5: or something on an episode of NCIS And then they
Speaker 5: try to watch it and it doesn't happen, like it's
Speaker 5: cut for cut from you know, network TV or whatever.
Speaker 5: And I'm pretty sure that it mirrors an actual thing
Speaker 5: that happened in like gay TV history, where in there
Speaker 5: was supposed to be a gay kiss and then it
Speaker 5: was cut. And so as a part of their last season,
Speaker 5: they stage up protests wherein they kiss on Good Morning
Speaker 5: America in front of Al Roker and Will and Jack
Speaker 5: kiss on Morning TV basically the live Morning TV and
Speaker 5: then they become the first gay kiss on TV, which
Speaker 5: is like kind of genius. It's like really genius and
Speaker 5: fun and also talks about like the first like the
Speaker 5: first gay stuff is like that's like a that's a
Speaker 5: joke that will like remain relevant, like jokes that are
Speaker 5: jokes are still on SNL about that, you know what
Speaker 5: I mean?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean even in terms of the sort of
Speaker 3: meta the meta element of it, even when when Britney
Speaker 3: Spears guest stars famously she plays a conservative talk show
Speaker 3: host that the new conservative network that has bought out TV,
Speaker 3: which is the network that Jack works at, has placed
Speaker 3: there to make the show more conservative. And I feel
Speaker 3: like that's also a sort of commentary on like what
Speaker 3: you can get away with what the quote unquote the suits, like,
Speaker 3: you know, want, versus what the people want people making
Speaker 3: a show want. Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's very it's
Speaker 3: very sort of aware of the of the culture surrounding it.
Speaker 5: I want to rewind really quick, because we didn't get
Speaker 5: a chance to talk about, like I guess where we
Speaker 5: were in time when we first watched Will and Grace.
Speaker 5: I have already sat on the pot that right around
Speaker 5: the time, I still wasn't allowed to watch like mainstream things,
Speaker 5: but I like was saving my own money to buy
Speaker 5: my own shit. I did buy this season six box
Speaker 5: set of Will and Grace and hid it under my bed,
Speaker 5: and my mom ended up like confiscating it and throwing
Speaker 5: it away, so that to me is like but I
Speaker 5: remember loving it and being like what the fuck is this? Like,
Speaker 5: how is this allowed to be in the culture?
Speaker 4: Whatever? What are y'all's memories, I guess are attachment to it.
Speaker 3: I distinctly remember the first the first time I was
Speaker 3: like channel surfing and caught it on TV, and I
Speaker 3: wish I remember the context of this scene, but it's
Speaker 3: like a scene where I think Will is coming back
Speaker 3: from Paris, I want to say, and he had sent
Speaker 3: back a T shirt that has like the Eiffel Tower
Speaker 3: on it that was meant for Jack's son that he
Speaker 3: has with like the lesbian couple with Rosio done all over,
Speaker 3: but Jack had misunderstood and thought the T shirt was
Speaker 3: for him. So the big reveal is that he takes
Speaker 3: off his Bathrob when he's wearing like a belly shirt
Speaker 3: that has the Eiffel Tower on it, which is clearly
Speaker 3: like a kid's shirt, and he's like, this wasn't for me,
Speaker 3: and it's like, of course he's so gay that he
Speaker 3: thought like a children's shirt was for him or whatever.
Speaker 3: And I just remember being like almost I in no
Speaker 3: way was aware that I might be gay. At the time,
Speaker 3: I was, you know, probably like eleven or twelve or something,
Speaker 3: and I remember being so sort of like humiliated by
Speaker 3: the sight of that and being like, oh, God, like
Speaker 3: men shouldn't do that, Like this is so like why
Speaker 3: is he being so feminine? Well, they shouldn't is Let's
Speaker 3: be real, And that's kind of the moral of the
Speaker 3: show at the end.
Speaker 2: So I have that memory of it.
Speaker 3: But then at the same time, it was very sort
Speaker 3: of like intrigued and titillated by it and found it
Speaker 3: very funny, and I.
Speaker 2: Like wanted to watch more of it.
Speaker 3: And the other thing is so at the time we
Speaker 3: were living in so my parents immigrated from Greece, and
Speaker 3: then we lived in New Jersey, and then when I
Speaker 3: was thirteen, we moved back to Greece. So I have
Speaker 3: sort of these two parts of my life where I
Speaker 3: was like in America and then outside. And so this
Speaker 3: was still in New Jersey and we went to a
Speaker 3: Greek church that was in no way conservative. It was like,
Speaker 3: you know, in like a blue state. It was not
Speaker 3: like Catholic whatever. But for whatever reason, I remember in
Speaker 3: Sunday school the teacher calling out specifically Will and Grace
Speaker 3: has like this uniquely evil thing, and he had like
Speaker 3: never talked about pop culture before or music or TV
Speaker 3: or movies, but that was like the one thing I
Speaker 3: remember he singled out. So from the beginning, I almost
Speaker 3: like had caught on that it was something controversial before
Speaker 3: I knew what it even was on its own, you know,
Speaker 3: on its own. And then I think I really got
Speaker 3: into it, probably after it stopped airing, because I started
Speaker 3: just like watching it, like renting it, renting the DVDs,
Speaker 3: or like watching it online. And it became sort of
Speaker 3: like a comfort watch, like my number one comfort watch
Speaker 3: throughout like high school and college that I would like
Speaker 3: return to, or if I was like home for the
Speaker 3: Christmas for Christmas break or something, I would just like
Speaker 3: let it play in the background and watch like twelve
Speaker 3: episodes in a row. And Yeah, and it's interesting because
Speaker 3: it hasn't had the same kind of nostalgic legacy as
Speaker 3: even even like Friends or something like yes, it was rebooted, whatever,
Speaker 3: But you don't really see you know, you don't see
Speaker 3: a lot of like gifts of it or like people
Speaker 3: constantly quoting it.
Speaker 2: I mean you see some, but it's really not.
Speaker 3: As much as as as a lot of this other
Speaker 3: stuff that has had like a second life on streaming.
Speaker 5: Yeah, there are no Will and Grace t shirts at
Speaker 5: hot topic, right, Yeah, there are lots of Friends t
Speaker 5: shirts at hot topic.
Speaker 1: Even though it even though it is I believe, still
Speaker 1: in syndication. Yeah, I think you can still turn on
Speaker 1: you know, TBS and catch an episode of Will and Grace.
Speaker 1: You were talking talking about this episode with like the
Speaker 1: Eiffel Tower shirt. The femininity really was like a sticking
Speaker 1: point for pretty much everyone that ever can the show,
Speaker 1: and it was like a reason for people to basically
Speaker 1: hate it, whether you were gay or straight. And like,
Speaker 1: I think it honestly the kind of like, oh God
Speaker 1: like terror feeling that like I.
Speaker 4: Definitely felt as a kid when I watched it, that.
Speaker 5: You felt as a kid that a lot of people
Speaker 5: feel when they first see a flamboyant character on screen.
Speaker 5: Like had a lot to do with like, uh wait,
Speaker 5: what's what the.
Speaker 4: Guy that plays with Jack, what's his name? Sean Hayes's
Speaker 4: physical comedic brilliance?
Speaker 5: Like he's such a a comedic genius as a physical comic, like.
Speaker 4: Insurmountable.
Speaker 5: And I think that his femininity and what he was
Speaker 5: able to do with physical comedy, comedy and femininity is
Speaker 5: why we were terrified, but also why it was radical
Speaker 5: because I didn't get ninety percent of those jokes.
Speaker 4: I didn't understand a lot of the zingers, but.
Speaker 5: I understood what was physically funny about the show every
Speaker 5: single character, including Sean Hayes obviously, but everybody's great at
Speaker 5: physical comedy.
Speaker 3: I feel, I mean, I'm glad you brought up the
Speaker 3: sort of backlash against that character specifically because I mean,
Speaker 3: especially among gay people, it was like, this is so
Speaker 3: harmful because it is perpetuating this harmful stereotype that gasp,
Speaker 3: gay men or queenie like you know, it's like, yeah,
Speaker 3: they are, and I think it really I notice you.
Speaker 2: Say they and not we. Well, yeah, I'm sort of
Speaker 2: more of a will part of that, but like, yeah,
Speaker 2: I've met people like.
Speaker 3: That for sure, and I accept them. Yeah, sure, But
Speaker 3: I do think it really overshadows the fact that it
Speaker 3: was this like genius performance, like to reduce that to like, oh,
Speaker 3: he's being flamboyant, when it's so much more like he's
Speaker 3: not being flamboyant in the way that like the bitchy
Speaker 3: assistant in a rom Com is being flamboyant he's.
Speaker 2: Doing like.
Speaker 3: I mean, it's just like it's one of them, one
Speaker 3: of them brilliant sitcom performances of all time.
Speaker 1: Oh, I mean, honestly, every single one of them, in
Speaker 1: a different way is giving an incredible comedic performance. Eric McCormick,
Speaker 1: like also, I think is a great physical comedian, like
Speaker 1: has this very sort of like gummy quality to his face.
Speaker 6: You know.
Speaker 1: Deborah Messing it like kind of is in the same boat.
Speaker 1: Megan Malally like.
Speaker 2: Is a genius.
Speaker 6: And Karen is is mother.
Speaker 1: Karen she is some mother for that she is like
Speaker 1: she she just she is the divadal herself. They all
Speaker 1: were were incredible and the show, I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: we were talking about like where we all were when
Speaker 1: this show came out, and like I like have such
Speaker 1: a like boring context for it, because like I was
Speaker 1: just allowed to watch whatever and like my family and
Speaker 1: I definitely like watched this as part of that Thursday
Speaker 1: night block Musty TV with Friends and Seinfeld and like
Speaker 1: whatever other shows were on at the time, and like
Speaker 1: somehow this show both seamlessly blended into the other sitcoms
Speaker 1: that existed at the time because of the kind of
Speaker 1: performances the actors were giving and also absolutely stuck out
Speaker 1: and was singular for the same reason.
Speaker 3: Also Deborah Messing, like I know, we all sort of
Speaker 3: roll our eyes at her now and with good reason
Speaker 3: when you look back on her, just her as a
Speaker 3: comedic actress, like she is giving Lucille ball like it is.
Speaker 2: She is, the way she uses her voice, I mean,
Speaker 2: and and.
Speaker 3: Also like there's a sort of not to use this
Speaker 3: excuse mer not to use the word I'm choking up,
Speaker 3: not to use the word brave, but there's a sort
Speaker 3: of like bravery to like the way that she really
Speaker 3: does just like debase herself physically. Like there's a part
Speaker 3: there's a one episode where she's wearing this dress, this
Speaker 3: very low cut dress without a bra, and the gag
Speaker 3: is that Karen is fixing her boobs but they keep
Speaker 3: like sacked, so she like pulls them up and then
Speaker 3: they keep sagging, and it goes on for truly like
Speaker 3: twenty seconds of like Grace sitting there with her moves
Speaker 3: all but exposed and Karen like trying to pull them up,
Speaker 3: but then they keep sagging because Grace is so disgusting.
Speaker 3: Like that's like the joke of the and it's like,
Speaker 3: you know, it's not nothing like to just sit there.
Speaker 1: It's very brave of her. And I think they all
Speaker 1: you know, won Emmys and Golden Globes at various points
Speaker 1: throughout the show's run, also thinking about okay, thinking about
Speaker 1: the grace of it all, Like this is very Will
Speaker 1: and Grace is.
Speaker 6: Like peak fag.
Speaker 3: I mean, Will and Grace is just like there are
Speaker 3: gay men and there are straight women period.
Speaker 2: Like that's I think that's like what we've been.
Speaker 3: Of, like because we were all very like you know,
Speaker 3: we're being sort of redemptive about it and we're being
Speaker 3: positive about it. But like obviously all of us are
Speaker 3: aware of like the shortcomings of the show.
Speaker 2: Like yeah, there's nothing. Yeah, like we're not mentioning them.
Speaker 3: Because I assume your listeners are smart enough to like
Speaker 3: know them already and we can sort of like ellegrated
Speaker 3: for what it is. But like it was peak fag
Speaker 3: hag culture. It was peak like I mean, the way
Speaker 3: I'm not even gonna talk like the way that trans
Speaker 3: people were like dealt with was like not even you know,
Speaker 3: as though like not in human but even lesbians.
Speaker 1: Well I clocked a joke with that Will made in
Speaker 1: one of the episodes I was watching yesterday where he
Speaker 1: was like I was the only boy who did some
Speaker 1: kind of like gay thing. He's like, well, the only
Speaker 1: one who still a boy, And it was like just
Speaker 1: stuff like that.
Speaker 3: But even les I mean, you know, even lesbians though,
Speaker 3: were also the punchlines. Like you could argue that like,
Speaker 3: oh we were not as close to sort of you know,
Speaker 3: mainstream acceptance of trans people at the time. Fine, but
Speaker 3: like what but but there was a sort of way
Speaker 3: in which it was like, well, it's gay men's turn, now,
Speaker 3: maybe lesbians will get a turn later. Like it was
Speaker 3: it was a show about gay men, and like whenever
Speaker 3: lesbians were on, they were like truly the butt of
Speaker 3: the joke.
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, every single time.
Speaker 5: I mean yeah, I think that, like it's funny because obviously, yeah,
Speaker 5: a lot of a lot of things like that are
Speaker 5: like very reductive and all that jazz.
Speaker 4: And like I do think that like contemporary.
Speaker 5: Criticism, like people that were critical of it while it
Speaker 5: was running, a lot of them came back to this
Speaker 5: this thing about like homogeneity, right, like this is not
Speaker 5: all of us, So why you know, why are these
Speaker 5: characters so flat.
Speaker 4: Why don't they have sex? Why don't they have inner lives?
Speaker 5: And I'm like, it's a sitcom about upper or white
Speaker 5: about upper class like white faggots, like.
Speaker 1: And it's also it's not all of us, but it's
Speaker 1: so it's such a lot of us.
Speaker 5: And that's like it's it's scarcity, right, is like what
Speaker 5: creates that? Like it's like all of us, like eating
Speaker 5: each other alive is like a product of the oppression.
Speaker 5: And it's like because there were only two other gay
Speaker 5: shows out at the time, probably like we all hate
Speaker 5: all of them, and like it's interesting that like now
Speaker 5: in twenty twenty two, when we have like seven hundred
Speaker 5: gay shows, we still.
Speaker 2: All, oh a hundred or yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's kind of really using, I mean because yeah.
Speaker 3: And again it's almost like like it goes back to
Speaker 3: the bookstore versus Jim thing. It's like there's a certain
Speaker 3: honesty to what it was depicting. Like it was not
Speaker 3: depicting a diverse friend group where everyone is of a
Speaker 3: different socioeconomic status. It was depicting a very specific group
Speaker 3: of people, like two upwardly mobile, rich professionals and then
Speaker 3: like there are two friends, one of which is like
Speaker 3: a dumb faggot, and the other one of which is
Speaker 3: like an you know this like wealthy, fictional wealthy woman
Speaker 3: that exists as like an imagination of a gay man,
Speaker 3: you know, like so housing the way I I thought
Speaker 3: that was the funniest thing. Wait, God, there was like
Speaker 3: one line where Karen goes, so Grace is talking about
Speaker 3: something kind of lame and boring or whatever, but she's
Speaker 3: like portraying it as interesting. I think she's talking about
Speaker 3: like planning a game night, so it's like something really stupid,
Speaker 3: and Karen is just like rolling her eyes, and after
Speaker 3: every sentence Grace says, she just like expresses her exasperation
Speaker 3: even more. And then the final thing she says is
Speaker 3: which lever do I pull to be crushed by a safe?
Speaker 3: And it's just like, I mean, it's such a perfect
Speaker 3: Karen Lyne.
Speaker 1: It was jokes on jokes on jokes on jokes.
Speaker 6: They never stopped.
Speaker 1: I mean, that's what happens when, you know, in ye
Speaker 1: olden days, when they're like twenty writers in the right
Speaker 1: and they're all getting paid real money and get residuals
Speaker 1: to this day, mama, yea truly, and it's wild to
Speaker 1: think that, like Eric McCormick is still heterosexual, and like,
Speaker 1: that's crazy, and what an interesting post Will and Grace's
Speaker 1: career he's had. Because the only thing I ever the
Speaker 1: only thing I've ever seen him in is he did
Speaker 1: an episode on Lonard SVU where he was the villain.
Speaker 6: It's very creepy.
Speaker 5: Oh, I honestly, I'm kind of I'm depressed by the
Speaker 5: fact that, like none of them really do much anymore.
Speaker 5: Like I do think they all have like a sublime
Speaker 5: ingenuity that would lend.
Speaker 4: Itself so well to other shows.
Speaker 1: Like I mean, well, they've all done things like Megan
Speaker 1: Malally what is incredible on Parks and rec like she
Speaker 1: was a recurring but that was a guest star.
Speaker 3: Is coming up? So do you guys know Josh Sharp
Speaker 3: and Aaron Jackson. Yes, she's in there movie which you know,
Speaker 3: not to brag. I've seen a cut of and oh
Speaker 3: when I tell you, I when I tell you You're gonna die.
Speaker 3: I mean it is like it's like all bets are off,
Speaker 3: Like it is a performance unlike anything I've ever seen.
Speaker 4: I'm so excited.
Speaker 1: Well, she has that, she has that in her and
Speaker 1: always has and like the thing I think that the
Speaker 1: reason why we're like they all deserve more is because
Speaker 1: we're not like I don't think we're accurately remembering the
Speaker 1: time when this show was such a cultural jug ornau
Speaker 1: and these were incredibly famous people who were like winning
Speaker 1: Emmys and Golden Globes every year, and like probably like
Speaker 1: they all enjoy the fact that they only have to
Speaker 1: work when they want to. And you know, even someone
Speaker 1: like Sean hay Is like really like is very seems
Speaker 1: to be very selective about what he like gets involved with,
Speaker 1: and like he was he was in that Netflix show
Speaker 1: Q Force and was a producer on it, and like,
Speaker 1: you know, I think like they're again like they are
Speaker 1: all making tons of residuals because like this is a
Speaker 1: sitcom and there are a million episodes of it, and like,
Speaker 1: of course, yes, I wish we saw more of them,
Speaker 1: and maybe who knows, like this movie will be a
Speaker 1: moment to like reinsert Megan Malali back in pop culture.
Speaker 1: But like, I don't think it's like necessarily fair to
Speaker 1: say that like they've done nothing.
Speaker 3: It's more like there aren't that many, like there aren't
Speaker 3: that many sitcoms like that where the full range of
Speaker 3: their talents could be yes, played like because they are. Yeah,
Speaker 3: you're right, they are all consistently. I mean Megamali especially
Speaker 3: has had truly I mean it's funny, like talking about
Speaker 3: happy endings. She plays Casey Wilson's mom and happy endings
Speaker 3: and it's like a very funny role. Or like she'll
Speaker 3: be in Parkson Regg, she'll be in Oh god, she
Speaker 3: was recently in something and she was really good. Anyway,
Speaker 3: it's they're all doing. I mean, listen, Deborah Messing was
Speaker 3: has done a lot of stage work, none of it,
Speaker 3: none of it. She also she also had that show
Speaker 3: where she was Yes Hemistry Laura and.
Speaker 6: She and she was she was a.
Speaker 1: Cop in that movie Searching. Oh my god, all right,
Speaker 1: why does she like playing cop? You? You are both reaching.
Speaker 2: So you forget about.
Speaker 4: Okay, No, here's what I'm trying.
Speaker 5: Here's what Here's what I'm getting at when I by
Speaker 5: mentioning it rose, I think you're looking at it through
Speaker 5: rose color classes to say that they are being yes,
Speaker 5: to say that they're being selective about like I think
Speaker 5: I think we're taking for granted just how homophobic Hollywood
Speaker 5: is and still is.
Speaker 4: And I think that baby, it's not.
Speaker 5: And I think no, I do think that, like like
Speaker 5: when you are known for doing one gay thing for
Speaker 5: eight years, you'll never get any work outside of that,
Speaker 5: Like like I mean, especially Sean and Sean and Eric,
Speaker 5: like no one would ever ever ever cast them in
Speaker 5: straight like major movie or TV show, like straight roles,
Speaker 5: different types anything, like it's not gonna work. And with
Speaker 5: with Deborah Messing and Megan Malalley, I would I would
Speaker 5: wager that their reputation and their commitment to a historically
Speaker 5: gay show is part of like what deters them from
Speaker 5: being bookable in other places.
Speaker 4: And like I don't think I would say that if.
Speaker 5: Like Deborah Messing wasn't so desperate about like being in
Speaker 5: the Lucille Ball biopic or like constantly pitching herself for things.
Speaker 4: And I'm like, girl, like you're a legend. You don't
Speaker 4: need to be doing this.
Speaker 5: And I and I think part of like where I'm
Speaker 5: going as like you know Ellen, when Ellen came out,
Speaker 5: she did like pay like she paved the way for
Speaker 5: Will and Grace to exist. But like when Laura Dern
Speaker 5: played Ellen's love interest for that episode of TV of
Speaker 5: her coming out TV show, she did not get work
Speaker 5: for like what six seven eight years, she got like
Speaker 5: death threats.
Speaker 4: She was like cast out from Hollywood.
Speaker 5: Like there's so much like residual homophobia that like makes
Speaker 5: people associated with queer things I guess not bookable. And
Speaker 5: if it's not a f and if it's not homophobia,
Speaker 5: it's actually just like the limitedness of casting directors totally.
Speaker 1: And well, yeah, I do think a big part of
Speaker 1: it is the sitcom of it all is that it's
Speaker 1: probably very hard for a casting director to look at
Speaker 1: Sean Hayes and see him as anything other than just Jack,
Speaker 1: you know, like, and it's hard for audiences probably.
Speaker 6: To do the same.
Speaker 1: And I'm sure that, bundled with the extreme homophobia of
Speaker 1: the world and of Hollywood, makes it hard for them.
Speaker 3: I mean Sean Hayes specifically, it's interesting has like rebranded
Speaker 3: himself as a sort of power producer.
Speaker 2: Like if you go to his.
Speaker 3: He's really like produced a lot of stuff and he's
Speaker 3: like someone people really want to work with.
Speaker 2: And I think he has like a good reputation.
Speaker 3: I mean, of course, like God will strike me dead
Speaker 3: because tomorrow it'll reveal that like I don't know, he threw.
Speaker 2: Someone out a window. But yeah, I wish that's mess
Speaker 2: with the best.
Speaker 6: Truly.
Speaker 4: I want so much for her, I want so much.
Speaker 6: Well, she she's an icon and she.
Speaker 2: Still got it. She's still got the comedic timing. You know.
Speaker 3: I do think there's a lack of focus where it's
Speaker 3: like she shouldn't be doing She did this off Broadway
Speaker 3: play that was like a woman aging four decades in
Speaker 3: real not in real time, I'd say in real time,
Speaker 3: not time, but yeah, it was like it was it
Speaker 3: was called Birthday Candles, and it was like every like
Speaker 3: fifteen minutes she had a new birthday or something. I
Speaker 3: I'm obviously it's not exactly that, but it's essentially that she.
Speaker 2: Did this other play.
Speaker 3: She shouldn't be be treating this other which people, if
Speaker 3: you haven't seen clips of you have to google Deborah
Speaker 3: Messing Irish accent. She did some play where she was
Speaker 3: meant to be Irish and she's acting like alongside an
Speaker 3: actual Irish person, and it's truly, I can't even do
Speaker 3: it justice, Like it is unlike anything I've ever heard
Speaker 3: of in my life. If you can find a clip
Speaker 3: and put it here, truly like it is a treat.
Speaker 1: Well, well, she is one of our most iconic redheads,
Speaker 1: and I what. I had a hair appointment yesterday and
Speaker 1: I got home afterwards I was watching Will and Grace
Speaker 1: and I realized my hair color is like Grace.
Speaker 2: Are you are giving Grace? I have to say.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I'm also but also Megan Malali in her
Speaker 1: real life is is a redhead. So I'm gonna say
Speaker 1: I'm still I'm still a Karen. Yeah we should Karen.
Speaker 7: Should all be Karen's write the book.
Speaker 1: Decide into our DMS at Like a Virgin four twenty
Speaker 1: sixty nine and let us know, did you watch Will
Speaker 1: and Grace? Are you a Will? Are you a Grace?
Speaker 1: Are you a Jack? Are you a Karen? And we'll
Speaker 1: be back next week with a new episode. You can
Speaker 1: become a patron at Patreon dot com slash like a
Speaker 1: Virgin four weekly bonus episodes so you can also buy
Speaker 1: our march at Like a Virgin four sixty nine dot com.
Speaker 1: Follow us on Instagram at Like a Virgin four twenty
Speaker 1: sixty nine. You can follow me anywhere you want, do
Speaker 1: you and you can find Fran at France wishco. Like
Speaker 1: a Virgin is an iHeartRadio production. Our producer is Phoebee
Speaker 1: Unter with support from Lindsay Hoffmann and Nikkiktor until next week.
Speaker 2: Au Revoir, Just Jack.
Speaker 1: And now a clip from our Patreon. Become a patron
Speaker 1: at patreon dot com slash like a Virgin for weekly
Speaker 1: bonus episodes and more.
Speaker 6: Wow.
Speaker 1: Last week I read a gay pirate book, Erotic Yes,
Speaker 1: All Kidnapped by the Pirate.
Speaker 4: And your review.
Speaker 6: You're like, remember three and.
Speaker 1: A half stars, Yes, but I still enjoyed it. It's
Speaker 1: about So, it's about this young twink who is moving
Speaker 1: from England to a an island. His father has been like,
Speaker 1: is going to be the governor of you know, this
Speaker 1: is like early seventeen hundreds. It's like Pirates of the
Speaker 1: Caribbean vibes And on their voyage they get boarded by
Speaker 1: a pirate vessel and this this pirate kidnaps him because
Speaker 1: the boy's father cheated the pirate years before, because the
Speaker 1: pirate used to be a privateer and because of the
Speaker 1: boy's father, he was forced into a life of piracy.
Speaker 1: So the pirate kidnaps him and he's like, well, I'm
Speaker 1: gonna ransom you back to your father, and so he
Speaker 1: keeps him on him.
Speaker 2: He keeps him on his ship.
Speaker 1: He keeps him on his ship, like in his cabin.
Speaker 1: But unbeknownst to him, this boy, his whole life has
Speaker 1: been like I want God so badly, and the pirate
Speaker 1: is like being really mean to him, but the boy is.
Speaker 6: Like turned on by it.
Speaker 4: He's like, don't be mean to me.
Speaker 1: I'll come.
Speaker 7: No.
Speaker 1: Literally, like there's a scene where because he makes the
Speaker 1: boy stay in his cabin all day, and so one
Speaker 1: day the boy's like.
Speaker 4: He's like, yeah, lock my cock and the page daddy. No.
Speaker 6: One day, the boy's like, well, what am I gonna do?
Speaker 1: I guess I'm just gonna jerk off, and so he
Speaker 1: jerks off, and right after he comes, the pirate comes
Speaker 1: inside and the boy like hides his hand come behind
Speaker 1: his back, and the Pirate's like, what are you hiding?
Speaker 1: And he brings it out and his hands full of cum,
Speaker 1: and the pirate's like he he he, well.
Speaker 4: He acknowledges that it's common. He's like, I caught you
Speaker 4: jerking it.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 6: Well the pirate's also gay.
Speaker 5: Pirate entities just tend to be gay, yeah, like they
Speaker 5: really it comes with the culture.
Speaker 1: Yes, And so they do eventually start fucking and sucking
Speaker 1: and they fall.
Speaker 4: In love fucking sucking too.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: And the thing that I always think in these circumstances
Speaker 1: is their holes and other body parts would be so dirty,
Speaker 1: so smelly, so smelly, smelly, so covered, and shit so
Speaker 1: covered and shit, and I do you have to suspend
Speaker 1: disbelief a little bit. Yeah, that's why I.
Speaker 7: The captain bent over and I saw his cleanish wish.
Speaker 1: I mean, there is a plot point where like the
Speaker 1: boys like, please let me take a bath, and so
Speaker 1: like he does bathe before the first time they have
Speaker 1: SA so you know, he is like nice and but
Speaker 1: we all know that baths are not very sanitary.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 1: And it's not even a real bath. It's like a
Speaker 1: bucket that he's cleaning himself with. It's why I do
Speaker 1: kind of like sometimes when I read like gay fantasy,
Speaker 1: because like with the monsters, it's like they don't eat,
Speaker 1: so they don't shit.
Speaker 5: Are you do you prefer shower before sex like in
Speaker 5: all cases or are you just does it kind of depend.
Speaker 6: I do prefer it.
Speaker 1: I had someone recently actually ask me not to shower
Speaker 1: before sex.
Speaker 4: Yeah, people ask and I like the musk. Yeah, if
Speaker 4: you want the musk, that's fine. It's just I don't
Speaker 4: really want the musk.
Speaker 6: I want the musk.
Speaker 4: Yeah, oh, I like the musk. I don't like a
Speaker 4: lot of musk. I only like a little musk.
Speaker 6: I like a I really like a musky pit.
Speaker 4: I couldn't handle that. I couldn't handle like dark bo.
Speaker 1: Not like dank dank, but like I don't want to.
Speaker 1: I like armpits and I like to lick an armpit,
Speaker 1: and I don't want to taste deodorant.
Speaker 2: Same.
Speaker 1: The ideal would be if you showered and then didn't
Speaker 1: like put anything on and then came.
Speaker 4: Over yeah, or you had just like you know, an
Speaker 4: essential oil or something.
Speaker 1: But there's like this guy who asked me not to shower.
Speaker 1: He was actually like, oh, you should go to the gym.
Speaker 5: Oh and get your sweat. Yeah, that's coreact. I mean, look,
Speaker 5: some girls be into that.
Speaker 4: Okay, I know, Okay,