WEBVTT - Implied Rimming (feat. George Civeris) 0:00:02.680 --> 0:00:05.920 We're actually going to add a laugh track into this episode, 0:00:06.120 --> 0:00:09.400 perfect so that everyone knows when we're being funny. 0:00:09.520 --> 0:00:09.680 Right. 0:00:09.760 --> 0:00:12.240 That's part of my rider whenever I do a podcast, 0:00:12.280 --> 0:00:13.840 is that I need to come laughter. 0:00:14.960 --> 0:00:23.279 She's sheen Ami, no ma, not my name? Yo? What 0:00:23.520 --> 0:00:30.200 is your childhood? I am a chuck, yo? 0:00:30.320 --> 0:00:31.280 What's going down? 0:00:31.360 --> 0:00:32.240 Before one. 0:00:34.080 --> 0:00:45.880 Round? Welcome to like a virgin. I'm rose dom you. 0:00:46.320 --> 0:00:48.680 Fran is not here at the moment because she is 0:00:48.760 --> 0:00:53.840 on fire Island for no know the millionth time this. 0:00:54.520 --> 0:00:56.160 I was going to say this summer, but it's not 0:00:56.240 --> 0:00:59.680 even summer anymore. It's literally fall. We took a few 0:00:59.680 --> 0:01:02.040 weeks off, but we are back today with a brand 0:01:02.040 --> 0:01:03.800 new episode and it's a good one. We've been holding 0:01:03.840 --> 0:01:08.280 onto this for a while. Today we have an episode 0:01:08.319 --> 0:01:13.040 with George Siveris, comedian and host of Stradio Lab, which 0:01:13.040 --> 0:01:15.240 Frand and I were on a couple of months ago. 0:01:15.360 --> 0:01:19.959 Definitely go listen to that. And we talked to George 0:01:20.120 --> 0:01:27.119 all about Will and Grace. Yes, this is all about 0:01:27.280 --> 0:01:32.640 musty TV. This is must listen podcasting. Will and Grace 0:01:32.720 --> 0:01:37.840 is obviously, you know, very iconic and like formative gay media, 0:01:38.200 --> 0:01:41.920 and we had a lot of fun talking about it. 0:01:42.120 --> 0:01:47.200 So without further ado, here comes George to talk with 0:01:47.280 --> 0:01:51.400 us all about Will and Grace and Jack and Karen. 0:01:51.440 --> 0:01:53.560 I'm imagining that as one of those T shirts where 0:01:53.560 --> 0:01:58.000 it's like, you know, the different characters listed like Harry 0:01:58.000 --> 0:02:02.240 and Hermione and Ron. Oh, it all comes back to 0:02:02.240 --> 0:02:05.000 Harry Potter, doesn't it. Do you want even more like 0:02:05.040 --> 0:02:08.560 a virgin content? Well, you should become a patron at 0:02:08.600 --> 0:02:11.560 patreon dot com slash like a virgin. We do weekly 0:02:11.600 --> 0:02:16.400 bonus episodes talking about you know, the TV shows, we're watching, 0:02:16.480 --> 0:02:20.919 the books, we're reading DBD commentaries, all that good stuff. 0:02:21.400 --> 0:02:36.560 So become a patron now and get into the gig. Honey. Okay, George, 0:02:36.560 --> 0:02:39.160 I want to know are you Are you a Will, 0:02:39.160 --> 0:02:40.639 a Jack, a Grace or a Karen? 0:02:41.120 --> 0:02:44.919 I mean the deepest, darkest Before I answered, let me 0:02:44.960 --> 0:02:47.880 just say this because I sent you guys or yeah, 0:02:47.919 --> 0:02:50.480 what if I was like I'm a Rosario Born, you know, 0:02:50.560 --> 0:02:54.720 like through and through, I'm actually more of a Leslie 0:02:54.760 --> 0:02:59.200 Jordan may hear rest in peace. Okay, I sent you 0:02:59.200 --> 0:03:01.200 guys three topic and I was sort of looking at 0:03:01.240 --> 0:03:02.680 them and I was like, this is the most like 0:03:02.840 --> 0:03:05.280 white faggot, like could. 0:03:05.160 --> 0:03:05.960 Not be it was true. 0:03:06.000 --> 0:03:09.839 The three topics were literally a forgotten Madonna album, Will 0:03:09.880 --> 0:03:13.040 and Grace, forgotten by the world maybe but by me, 0:03:14.040 --> 0:03:16.160 and and the which I appreciate. 0:03:16.200 --> 0:03:17.280 And the third one was Joan. 0:03:17.160 --> 0:03:19.639 Rivers And I was like, this is because there is 0:03:19.680 --> 0:03:21.360 a world in which I could have tried to be 0:03:21.480 --> 0:03:24.960 like you know, I like you know, highbrow things too. 0:03:24.960 --> 0:03:28.200 I could have been like b York, you know Apple, 0:03:28.440 --> 0:03:29.959 But I was like, no, I want to look into 0:03:30.000 --> 0:03:32.680 like the depths of my depravity, of like what are 0:03:32.720 --> 0:03:35.120 the things that truly, if I'm being honest with myself, 0:03:35.600 --> 0:03:41.160 like affected me, even if they're embarrassing now. And and sadly, no, 0:03:41.280 --> 0:03:43.520 I appreciate that. That was very brave of you. 0:03:43.680 --> 0:03:46.600 And when our producer texted us, I did hear the 0:03:46.640 --> 0:03:53.040 sound of a giant fan with the words clash. 0:03:51.920 --> 0:03:53.440 Whenever I sound on an email. 0:03:54.440 --> 0:03:57.720 Yes, it was giving, like it was giving like the 0:03:57.800 --> 0:04:00.480 gay it It was like, all are the most extreme 0:04:00.600 --> 0:04:03.240 versions of like that of the culture. But like I 0:04:03.240 --> 0:04:05.840 actually am curious because they I thought they were great topics. 0:04:05.880 --> 0:04:08.120 I had no I cast no judgment on that trio. 0:04:08.520 --> 0:04:11.800 But what is aside from being gay? What is the 0:04:11.840 --> 0:04:14.680 through line of those three cultural objects, because they said, 0:04:14.800 --> 0:04:16.719 I felt like I knew I learned so much about 0:04:16.760 --> 0:04:19.039 you just by the volunteering of those things. 0:04:19.080 --> 0:04:19.880 Yeah. 0:04:20.200 --> 0:04:25.000 I mean there's a sort of like grotesque ye in, 0:04:25.080 --> 0:04:28.680 sort of like the late nineties early aughts, white gay 0:04:28.800 --> 0:04:32.640 male It's like when it was starting to peek into 0:04:32.640 --> 0:04:35.280 the mainstream. And I feel like Will and Grace was 0:04:35.320 --> 0:04:37.440 part of that. I feel like people like, I mean, 0:04:37.520 --> 0:04:41.000 Joan Rivers has such a rich history without you know, 0:04:41.080 --> 0:04:43.000 she's not just a gay ac on, She's many other 0:04:43.000 --> 0:04:45.760 things and whatever. But like, in terms of my life, 0:04:45.800 --> 0:04:48.000 it was like these female comedians like Joan Rivers and 0:04:48.040 --> 0:04:51.279 Kathy Griffin and Margaret cho it was like people that 0:04:51.520 --> 0:04:57.280 appealed to basically the the Jack McFarlands of the world. 0:04:58.040 --> 0:04:58.360 Hmmm. 0:05:00.279 --> 0:05:02.560 I was gonna say that when you presented us with 0:05:02.560 --> 0:05:04.680 those three options, I was thinking of them as sort 0:05:04.720 --> 0:05:08.240 of a maiden mother Crone archetype. But Madonna and Joan 0:05:08.320 --> 0:05:13.560 Rivers are both the Krone, and they're also both the Mother. Okay, 0:05:13.560 --> 0:05:15.720 but I still want to know who are you of it? 0:05:15.839 --> 0:05:18.560 I mean again, I mean the really sort of human 0:05:18.560 --> 0:05:20.719 If I'm being honest with myself. The humiliating thing of 0:05:20.760 --> 0:05:22.920 it is that I am a will like I am 0:05:23.000 --> 0:05:28.239 like a basic sort of as much as I would 0:05:28.279 --> 0:05:31.600 like to pretend otherwise, a sort of like on the 0:05:31.640 --> 0:05:37.200 way to assimilation, white gay guy who works a desk job. 0:05:37.120 --> 0:05:37.680 You know what I mean? 0:05:38.360 --> 0:05:42.320 Like it's I mean every I mean, yes, I sort of. 0:05:42.440 --> 0:05:45.400 You could argue I'm a creative like Jack, but it's 0:05:45.480 --> 0:05:47.840 with a sort of like I'm not like punk rock 0:05:47.960 --> 0:05:50.719 doing cabaret shows like I am very much doing it. 0:05:50.800 --> 0:05:52.160 By the book, was Jack punk? 0:05:52.279 --> 0:05:52.440 Right? 0:05:52.480 --> 0:05:58.480 I mean, listen to many he was Jack? Jack is 0:05:59.120 --> 0:06:01.039 Jack is the vomit artist from is. 0:06:01.040 --> 0:06:07.080 A performance artist. Jack is rave culture. Jack is a 0:06:07.240 --> 0:06:12.920 yeah jacket. Jack is Byork Yeah yeah so, And and 0:06:13.360 --> 0:06:15.320 just if I have the bravery to be a Jack 0:06:15.400 --> 0:06:17.679 McFarland in the sense of being b York, I would, 0:06:18.360 --> 0:06:23.840 But instead I am Katie Perry witness Era fran fran 0:06:23.920 --> 0:06:26.000 I'm gonna ask you the same question, who of the 0:06:26.080 --> 0:06:30.680 four are you? This is the sex and the citification 0:06:31.120 --> 0:06:31.960 of pop culture. 0:06:32.040 --> 0:06:36.000 I think I I think I'm Debra Messing. I think 0:06:36.040 --> 0:06:36.880 I'm I think I'm. 0:06:36.760 --> 0:06:39.040 Grace Oh my god, you so I think that? 0:06:40.240 --> 0:06:42.200 But George you know, I see Will for you in 0:06:42.240 --> 0:06:43.479 like a more positive way. 0:06:43.520 --> 0:06:44.960 Like Will is the character. 0:06:44.800 --> 0:06:47.520 That tends to have like the bird's eye view of 0:06:47.560 --> 0:06:49.880 like what's going on totally, like the kind of the 0:06:49.880 --> 0:06:52.240 one that's like, hey, can we all keep it together 0:06:52.360 --> 0:06:56.080 for like one second, you know, but also like manages 0:06:56.120 --> 0:06:59.039 to slide into hysteria very quick, yes, which is very 0:06:59.080 --> 0:07:00.680 relatable and human relatable. 0:07:00.720 --> 0:07:06.159 He's also I mean, he's a neurotic. He feels constantly slighted. 0:07:07.400 --> 0:07:11.880 Again I'm describing both me myself and him, you know, neurotic, 0:07:11.960 --> 0:07:18.320 constantly slighted, sort of like really loves uh, really embraces 0:07:18.320 --> 0:07:21.120 being gay and loves being in gay spaces, but then 0:07:21.600 --> 0:07:23.440 there's always something that sets him off and he's like, 0:07:23.480 --> 0:07:27.120 I'm god, you know, like that's sort of me at 0:07:27.120 --> 0:07:27.560 a gay bar. 0:07:27.720 --> 0:07:31.120 But also like but he also like there's this thing 0:07:31.160 --> 0:07:34.320 of like he doesn't he's not like a certain kind. 0:07:34.320 --> 0:07:35.680 Right, well, that's the dream. 0:07:35.880 --> 0:07:40.120 He's a very like corporate gay like Matt, like straight 0:07:40.200 --> 0:07:46.480 passing gay in some ways interesting for any I Okay, 0:07:47.280 --> 0:07:49.440 I know we've we've gotten pretty far into this convo, 0:07:49.480 --> 0:07:51.320 but for the virgins listening, I do want to just 0:07:51.360 --> 0:07:54.680 provide a little context. We are talking about Will and Grace, 0:07:54.920 --> 0:07:59.800 the NBC sitcom which started in nineteen ninety eight, starring 0:08:00.280 --> 0:08:06.120 Deborah Messing, Eric McCormick, Megan Malalley, and Sean Hayes. It's 0:08:06.160 --> 0:08:10.120 about a duo of best friends. I think the series 0:08:10.160 --> 0:08:12.920 starts because Grace breaks up with the boyfriend and has 0:08:12.960 --> 0:08:16.680 to move in with her gay friend Will, who she 0:08:16.760 --> 0:08:19.520 at one point was in love with Taylor as old 0:08:19.520 --> 0:08:25.239 as time. She has an assistant who's wealthy and works 0:08:25.320 --> 0:08:31.040 for her for some reason, Karen. And then Will's next 0:08:31.040 --> 0:08:33.760 door neighbor is Jack, a very flamboyant gay man who 0:08:33.840 --> 0:08:36.680 is very much the sort of like other gays that 0:08:36.760 --> 0:08:42.559 Will is not like, and yet he absolutely is. So yeah, 0:08:42.600 --> 0:08:45.760 that's what the show's about. It ran from It ran 0:08:45.840 --> 0:08:47.960 for eight seasons in the original run, and then came 0:08:48.000 --> 0:08:54.520 back for I think a two season revival. Okay, so George, 0:08:54.559 --> 0:08:57.920 your Will, fran Is Grace. 0:08:58.040 --> 0:09:02.000 And you are Rosario. Now I'm Karen. 0:09:02.440 --> 0:09:06.360 Yeah, I mean it's you're You're the character most capable 0:09:06.400 --> 0:09:07.000 of murder. 0:09:08.520 --> 0:09:11.120 Splash has murdered probably. 0:09:12.640 --> 0:09:15.120 I'll never tell, just like Britney Murphy. 0:09:15.720 --> 0:09:17.520 But I also sort of appreciate Abou Karen is that 0:09:17.520 --> 0:09:19.480 there's a sort of mythology around her, as though she's 0:09:19.520 --> 0:09:21.720 kind of an otherworldly like she could be one hundred 0:09:21.760 --> 0:09:24.440 and fifty years old. She like will talk about her 0:09:24.480 --> 0:09:27.000 past and like imply that she was, you know, in 0:09:27.080 --> 0:09:29.880 the civil in like World War two or something like. 0:09:30.120 --> 0:09:30.920 It's very. 0:09:32.920 --> 0:09:34.719 I don't know, it's very it's almost I mean, it's 0:09:34.760 --> 0:09:38.160 a it's sort of on par with maybe not a Phoebe, 0:09:38.160 --> 0:09:40.360 but like definitely a Samantha from Sex and the City. 0:09:41.559 --> 0:09:42.000 Totally. 0:09:42.960 --> 0:09:47.400 Yeah, she is a figure who we are meant to 0:09:47.480 --> 0:09:51.360 understand like is kind of primordial and like has existed 0:09:51.400 --> 0:09:55.320 since Adonic time. She also, like I mean, the thing is, 0:09:55.400 --> 0:09:57.640 as with many sitcoms, if you go back and watch 0:09:57.679 --> 0:10:00.120 the first season of Will and Grace, it's like a 0:10:00.160 --> 0:10:03.840 little bit different than The characterizations especially are a little 0:10:03.880 --> 0:10:07.199 bit different than what they evolved into. Like Karen is 0:10:07.559 --> 0:10:10.520 not quite as much of a pill pop in Boozehound 0:10:10.960 --> 0:10:13.880 as she would come to be in later seasons. 0:10:14.760 --> 0:10:16.640 I will never forget that. 0:10:17.040 --> 0:10:20.800 I think they did two live episodes and there's one 0:10:20.920 --> 0:10:24.520 in which Karen there's a visual gag where Karen opens 0:10:24.600 --> 0:10:27.320 up her pill cabinet and it's just like a shoot 0:10:27.440 --> 0:10:32.280 with pills, like like shooting out of it, and it's 0:10:32.559 --> 0:10:33.360 so credible. 0:10:33.440 --> 0:10:35.680 That episode also guest stars Matt Lower. 0:10:38.080 --> 0:10:39.440 Yeah, well it is. 0:10:39.520 --> 0:10:43.720 It's an NBC and in fact, I'm sorry to you know, 0:10:44.640 --> 0:10:47.720 sort of go down this path. But a running gag 0:10:47.760 --> 0:10:49.840 in that episode is that basically Karen is serving this 0:10:50.000 --> 0:10:52.079 huge party that she throws every year that she has 0:10:52.120 --> 0:10:54.319 never invited Will and Grace to because she's embarrassed with 0:10:54.360 --> 0:10:57.280 them because it's all high profile people and celebrities, and 0:10:57.320 --> 0:11:00.720 she accidentally, through I think a mistake of hers, invited 0:11:00.720 --> 0:11:02.600 them this one year. So they're so excited to be 0:11:02.600 --> 0:11:04.719 the well with celebrities, and the entirety of the live 0:11:04.760 --> 0:11:07.360 episode takes place in the bathroom as they're each sort 0:11:07.360 --> 0:11:09.200 of like going in and out of the room, and 0:11:09.280 --> 0:11:11.240 Grace is doing this game where she's trying to touch 0:11:11.240 --> 0:11:14.640 as many famous people's butts as possible, and so one 0:11:14.640 --> 0:11:15.839 of the people she gets. 0:11:15.760 --> 0:11:17.040 Not a part of part of the people she gets 0:11:17.120 --> 0:11:19.679 is Matt Lower, ironically, and then like there's. 0:11:19.520 --> 0:11:22.960 A gag where she like kind of does it, she 0:11:23.120 --> 0:11:24.679 like gets his butt, and then he like looks at 0:11:24.679 --> 0:11:26.320 her and he's like, you already got me. 0:11:28.920 --> 0:11:29.679 That's kind of funny. 0:11:29.760 --> 0:11:33.480 Yeah, a little bit of yeah, a little bit of 0:11:33.559 --> 0:11:36.800 reverse foreshadowing. Well, you know, there's plenty of stuff that 0:11:36.920 --> 0:11:40.400 was done and said over the course of Will and 0:11:40.400 --> 0:11:43.960 Grace that would not fly now. I yesterday and preparation 0:11:44.080 --> 0:11:46.559 for this and also for my own enjoyment, I watched 0:11:46.640 --> 0:11:49.880 all of the Will and Grace Christmas episodes and there's 0:11:50.000 --> 0:11:54.200 one in which, through hanging out with Grace, Will's mom 0:11:54.320 --> 0:11:57.440 played by the incredible Blive Dianner, who gave us not 0:11:57.480 --> 0:12:02.000 only this character but also Gena Paltrow, it learns the 0:12:02.000 --> 0:12:04.359 word fagola, which is. 0:12:04.120 --> 0:12:07.120 Not something she should say. I wonder. 0:12:08.679 --> 0:12:11.400 Fagela is a Yiddish word for gay person or it's 0:12:11.480 --> 0:12:14.480 like saying fag in it is it is? Yeah, I 0:12:14.559 --> 0:12:17.520 wonder did they ever say fag on Will and Grace? 0:12:17.880 --> 0:12:20.760 You know, I think, I mean, maybe I'm wrong, but 0:12:20.800 --> 0:12:22.280 I feel like they may have. 0:12:23.760 --> 0:12:25.319 It's entirely possible they can say it. 0:12:25.720 --> 0:12:26.440 They can say it. 0:12:26.480 --> 0:12:27.839 I don't think they've said it. 0:12:29.120 --> 0:12:30.160 I mean maybe the revival. 0:12:30.240 --> 0:12:34.319 Yeah, there's a sort of like something that's gonna google, 0:12:34.679 --> 0:12:36.520 something that's sort of fascinating about Will and Grace and 0:12:36.559 --> 0:12:38.720 about a lot of like gay pop culture at the time, 0:12:38.800 --> 0:12:42.880 is like because of a combination of the fact that 0:12:42.920 --> 0:12:45.400 it's written by largely straight people, or by by many 0:12:45.440 --> 0:12:48.480 straight people, not exclusively, but it's written by many straight people, 0:12:48.600 --> 0:12:51.440 and also that people didn't have anything to compare it 0:12:51.480 --> 0:12:54.880 to because there wasn't that much mainstream gay media. The 0:12:55.080 --> 0:12:58.280 like rules of what's inappropriate and what's not inappropriate just 0:12:58.320 --> 0:13:01.760 like had not been set in stone yet. So some 0:13:01.840 --> 0:13:04.920 of it ends up being almost accidentally extremely subversive, just 0:13:04.920 --> 0:13:07.679 like some of it ends up being incredibly offensive and 0:13:07.760 --> 0:13:10.960 like transphobic and racist and whatever else. But some of 0:13:11.000 --> 0:13:14.280 it because they were just like going blind, Like now 0:13:14.320 --> 0:13:17.199 you're like, oh, this is in fact more subversive than 0:13:17.280 --> 0:13:19.760 like the queer meat, like than Bros. 0:13:20.000 --> 0:13:20.560 You know what I mean. 0:13:20.640 --> 0:13:24.600 Like, I think we could definitively say Will and Grace 0:13:25.600 --> 0:13:28.000 is more subversive than Bros. 0:13:28.120 --> 0:13:29.360 In almost every way. 0:13:30.600 --> 0:13:33.520 Although I mean, I hate to get to go this 0:13:33.600 --> 0:13:37.719 deep this early into this conversation, but was was aids 0:13:38.120 --> 0:13:40.760 ever mentioned in the entirety of Will and Grace? 0:13:40.960 --> 0:13:45.160 I know that's I don't think it was a running theme, 0:13:45.840 --> 0:13:48.800 but it wasn't a bit, not a bit. I mean, 0:13:48.840 --> 0:13:50.400 if they were really brave. They would just play it 0:13:50.400 --> 0:13:53.679 for laughs, of course, But yeah, but I do think 0:13:53.679 --> 0:13:56.560 there was sort of well, you know what, actually I 0:13:56.559 --> 0:13:58.640 remember this one episode and actually this is sort of 0:13:58.679 --> 0:14:01.920 like kind of a a window into the darkness of 0:14:01.960 --> 0:14:04.319 the soul of Will and Grace. Is like there was 0:14:04.360 --> 0:14:07.640 an episode where Jack and Will meet this gay elder 0:14:07.720 --> 0:14:10.320 and he's like this guy who's maybe in his sixties 0:14:10.400 --> 0:14:13.800 or seventies, and he wants to save this gay independent 0:14:13.840 --> 0:14:17.880 bookstore and because they're turning it into like a luxury gym, 0:14:18.320 --> 0:14:20.880 and so Jack and Will are very moved by it 0:14:20.920 --> 0:14:23.320 and they help him raise money. But the sort of 0:14:23.400 --> 0:14:26.440 gag at the end is that actually Jack and Will 0:14:26.600 --> 0:14:28.720 want it to be turned into a luxury gym because 0:14:28.760 --> 0:14:32.400 that's like more what they want than in but it's. 0:14:32.240 --> 0:14:34.160 Sort of like they want to cru but it's sort 0:14:34.160 --> 0:14:34.520 of like. 0:14:34.520 --> 0:14:36.800 There's something almost more honest about like if it's like 0:14:36.800 --> 0:14:38.480 if that were to happen now on like some sort 0:14:38.480 --> 0:14:40.920 of Netflix show that my mom watches, they would all 0:14:40.960 --> 0:14:43.520 come together and save the bookstore, you know what I mean, 0:14:43.680 --> 0:14:46.520 or like the luxury gym owner would be this huge villain. 0:14:46.840 --> 0:14:47.720 And it was sort of. 0:14:47.680 --> 0:14:51.080 Crazy that like they really did. They were honest about 0:14:51.080 --> 0:14:56.040 the fact that Will and Jack, as urban white gay 0:14:56.040 --> 0:14:58.640 man wanted the luxury gym more than they wanted to 0:14:58.640 --> 0:15:01.360 support like their queer elder. Like, so that's what I'm 0:15:01.360 --> 0:15:04.840 mean in progress, Yeah, exactly, Like that's what it's almost like, 0:15:04.880 --> 0:15:06.920 it's almost like very honest about things like that. 0:15:07.400 --> 0:15:10.400 Accidentally, Like I don't know, I think it is. 0:15:10.600 --> 0:15:12.800 I think it is like you're being facetious about it 0:15:12.880 --> 0:15:15.520 being progressed. But I actually do think that that is 0:15:15.600 --> 0:15:17.800 like what's missing from a lot of the things that 0:15:17.840 --> 0:15:21.000 are now correctively trying to commentate on what's going on 0:15:21.120 --> 0:15:23.160 right now. And I think the thing that like must 0:15:23.160 --> 0:15:25.200 be said about Will and Grace and like the climate 0:15:25.200 --> 0:15:27.960 that it came out in, it has a lot to 0:15:28.040 --> 0:15:31.680 do with the fact that they weren't trying to solve 0:15:31.720 --> 0:15:36.440 for anything, right like with the Bros comparison, Bros And 0:15:36.480 --> 0:15:38.960 we love all the people involved, but like Bros existed 0:15:39.040 --> 0:15:42.320 to solve a problem, you know, like it's it's solved. 0:15:42.360 --> 0:15:44.920 It was trying to solve a problem about the inclusion 0:15:44.920 --> 0:15:47.440 of queer character and brom coms and Will and Grace 0:15:47.560 --> 0:15:50.120 arrived on the scene being like we don't want to 0:15:50.240 --> 0:15:51.120 say anything. 0:15:51.560 --> 0:15:54.440 And in you know, nineteen ninety eight, like. 0:15:54.400 --> 0:15:57.720 By this time, it's like they've gone through the AIDS crisis. 0:15:57.760 --> 0:16:01.440 Freddie Mercury Ellen on Time saying Yep, I'm gay. Bill 0:16:01.480 --> 0:16:05.000 Clinton was the first president to like acknowledge gay people 0:16:05.960 --> 0:16:09.120 as like a voter base in general. Right, Like, there's 0:16:09.160 --> 0:16:12.359 so many kind of like landmarks that had been achieved 0:16:12.720 --> 0:16:14.840 to lay the path for it, so that by the 0:16:14.880 --> 0:16:19.400 time it arrived, which like it was essentially an overnight success. 0:16:19.440 --> 0:16:21.560 It was like by its first season it was like 0:16:22.240 --> 0:16:24.320 prime time highest rated show. 0:16:24.840 --> 0:16:25.840 It was musty TV. 0:16:26.000 --> 0:16:26.240 Honey. 0:16:26.400 --> 0:16:28.480 Yes, it was all of a sudden given permission to 0:16:28.560 --> 0:16:30.960 be as quote unquote problematic as it wants to. 0:16:31.040 --> 0:16:32.200 With that luxury gym thing. 0:16:32.280 --> 0:16:34.600 I think the luxury gym thing like kind of perfectly 0:16:34.720 --> 0:16:38.320 encapsulates what made Will and Grace really ahead of its time, 0:16:38.440 --> 0:16:42.080 which was that it was agnostic of a lot of 0:16:42.080 --> 0:16:44.280 the baggage that had come before it, which is like 0:16:44.400 --> 0:16:47.560 most people, most gay people that appeared on TV screens 0:16:47.840 --> 0:16:51.080 dieedab ads, right, And here is like an audience of 0:16:51.120 --> 0:16:54.720 people that are kind of sick of the whole AIDS thing, unfortunately, 0:16:55.120 --> 0:16:59.960 and so of course, it makes sense that the entire 0:17:00.240 --> 0:17:02.440 first run of Will and Grace would not mention AIDS 0:17:02.520 --> 0:17:04.960 once during the entire Yeah, they. 0:17:04.840 --> 0:17:07.360 Just wanted to be the fabulous, Like that's what it 0:17:07.400 --> 0:17:07.560 was all. 0:17:08.240 --> 0:17:34.600 And guess what mission accomplished, Sweetie. To your point Fran 0:17:34.680 --> 0:17:37.960 about it, I think you're so like dead on that 0:17:38.080 --> 0:17:40.240 it is. It could only have existed in late Clinton 0:17:40.280 --> 0:17:42.920 era because it is sort of like there's a sort of. 0:17:44.560 --> 0:17:45.760 Post AIDS. 0:17:45.800 --> 0:17:47.400 And I'm saying that in quotes. I understand that we're 0:17:47.440 --> 0:17:49.399 not actually in a post AIDS era, but for the 0:17:49.600 --> 0:17:52.440 average viewer, like a sort of post AIDS gay life 0:17:52.960 --> 0:17:57.399 almost gave them permission to be less serious about that 0:17:57.400 --> 0:17:59.960 stuff in the same way that we that like earlier 0:18:00.040 --> 0:18:02.320 Bamba era pop culture was like trying to be post 0:18:02.400 --> 0:18:04.639 race almost. It was sort of like, well, we've like 0:18:04.720 --> 0:18:07.240 exactly acknowledged gay people, and now we can have a 0:18:07.280 --> 0:18:09.960 sitcom about it, just like you know, we have a 0:18:09.960 --> 0:18:12.320 black president, now we can have you know, the show 0:18:12.320 --> 0:18:13.120 Happy Endings. 0:18:14.640 --> 0:18:16.040 Yeah kind of yeah. 0:18:16.040 --> 0:18:19.040 And it's it's kind of like to say like something 0:18:19.119 --> 0:18:21.639 is like ahead of its time is usually like code 0:18:21.640 --> 0:18:24.120 for like it's really dated now, but like it was, 0:18:24.200 --> 0:18:25.840 it was. It was ahead of its time, and like 0:18:26.160 --> 0:18:30.600 I remember, like last decade when Biden was like, Will 0:18:30.600 --> 0:18:33.199 and Grace probably did more to educate the American public 0:18:33.480 --> 0:18:37.720 on the LGBTQ community than anything else. He's not one 0:18:37.840 --> 0:18:38.920 hundred percent wrong. 0:18:39.000 --> 0:18:40.560 Well right, yeah, you know, she's. 0:18:42.080 --> 0:18:45.000 Because it was so massive, And I think that a lot, 0:18:45.240 --> 0:18:48.280 because the show itself was not burdened by the weight 0:18:48.400 --> 0:18:52.160 of quote unquote educating people. That's probably why everyone hates 0:18:52.200 --> 0:18:53.520 the show, because. 0:18:53.280 --> 0:18:54.480 It was about normalized. 0:18:54.520 --> 0:18:56.040 It didn't stand for everything. 0:18:56.160 --> 0:18:58.600 But I think that and I don't really know necessarily 0:18:58.640 --> 0:19:01.600 how the creators felt about like aids or like gay activists, 0:19:01.640 --> 0:19:05.200 but like I could imagine that by the mid late nineties, 0:19:05.640 --> 0:19:08.800 everyone is all gay people are sick of Larry Kramer, 0:19:09.320 --> 0:19:12.800 sick of act up, sick of like being you know, 0:19:13.119 --> 0:19:16.520 it's it's just it's a empathy fatigue, right, It's like 0:19:16.960 --> 0:19:18.720 what we felt like in the Trump era, where it's 0:19:18.720 --> 0:19:20.399 just like, I'm actually, I don't want to listen to 0:19:20.400 --> 0:19:23.479 this anymore. I need something that's just stupid and sexy 0:19:23.520 --> 0:19:23.960 and fun. 0:19:24.080 --> 0:19:25.920 And that's kind of okay, But I want to ask 0:19:25.960 --> 0:19:29.639 an important question, is Will and Grace for gay people 0:19:29.760 --> 0:19:30.879 or is it for stray people? 0:19:31.080 --> 0:19:33.240 And I think we I think we know the answer. 0:19:33.359 --> 0:19:36.399 I mean, it's funny because I do think at the 0:19:36.440 --> 0:19:40.320 time it was for straight people, and I almost think 0:19:40.400 --> 0:19:44.679 that maybe like it's long tail, like maybe it was. 0:19:46.400 --> 0:19:48.480 I feel like now it's for gay people. Like I 0:19:48.480 --> 0:19:51.000 feel like now nostalgically looking back on it, I'm like, 0:19:51.080 --> 0:19:53.879 this is fun in a sort of it's almost like 0:19:53.960 --> 0:19:55.760 watching a drag show or so, I mean, Karen is 0:19:55.760 --> 0:19:57.680 like a drag character, like you know, it's it's sort 0:19:57.680 --> 0:20:00.919 of like, yeah, I don't know, you can view it 0:20:01.000 --> 0:20:04.080 through a different lens and have it be fun for 0:20:04.119 --> 0:20:05.760 a gay audience. But I do think at the time 0:20:05.760 --> 0:20:08.960 it was certainly sold as like, look how normal this is? 0:20:08.960 --> 0:20:10.399 Look kind normal this is? Don't like, oh way, look 0:20:10.440 --> 0:20:11.199 how normal this is? 0:20:11.240 --> 0:20:14.760 You know, and yeah, and I'm sure like growing up 0:20:14.800 --> 0:20:17.679 as as you know, like little queer kids, there's like 0:20:18.000 --> 0:20:20.320 at first an element of like I don't want to 0:20:20.400 --> 0:20:22.600 like this thing because I don't want people to think 0:20:22.640 --> 0:20:25.119 I'm gay, And then it's like I don't want to 0:20:25.240 --> 0:20:29.080 like this thing because it's like it's lame. It's like, 0:20:29.800 --> 0:20:33.040 you know, it's like normalizing queerness. It's first three people, 0:20:33.480 --> 0:20:36.080 and now I think you're totally right that it's like 0:20:36.160 --> 0:20:38.320 looking back on it and you're like, wait, this actually 0:20:38.400 --> 0:20:42.000 like is absolutely for me and my sensibility, and like 0:20:42.440 --> 0:20:45.880 is for queer people like more than anyone else, because 0:20:46.240 --> 0:20:48.760 we are the ones who like get the references and 0:20:48.840 --> 0:20:51.600 get the humor and like it is exactly our taste 0:20:51.640 --> 0:20:52.560 and our point of view. 0:20:52.680 --> 0:20:57.160 It's also like, I mean, there's a way in which 0:20:57.200 --> 0:20:59.280 if they wanted to really sort of do this like 0:20:59.640 --> 0:21:05.919 respectability politics, normalizing gay people whatever, they they could have 0:21:06.040 --> 0:21:08.360 made the characters like way. 0:21:08.080 --> 0:21:09.560 More respectable than they are. 0:21:09.600 --> 0:21:12.679 I mean Jack is still like a sereny, screechy like 0:21:13.160 --> 0:21:17.320 sort of you know, in quote gay stereotype. And then 0:21:17.359 --> 0:21:20.920 even Will, who's meant to be like the more respectable one, 0:21:21.040 --> 0:21:24.800 is very like sort of like neurotic in this quintessentially 0:21:24.840 --> 0:21:30.480 gay way. Like he certainly is someone who actual gay 0:21:30.520 --> 0:21:34.240 people can see themselves in. So I think, like it 0:21:34.520 --> 0:21:38.080 almost like it's slightly better than it needs to be, 0:21:38.160 --> 0:21:39.880 and I think maybe that's why it has at least 0:21:39.880 --> 0:21:41.359 a little bit of lasting power. 0:21:42.840 --> 0:21:44.840 Yeah, well, I mean it has, like, of course it 0:21:44.880 --> 0:21:49.400 has aged poorly in some cases, but it's still funny. Yeah, 0:21:49.560 --> 0:21:52.520 you know, like going back and rewatching it, the jokes 0:21:52.560 --> 0:21:56.040 still hit. It's very well written, you know, it's like 0:21:56.160 --> 0:22:00.080 a very well crafted sitcom. I also like the but 0:22:00.640 --> 0:22:04.480 you know, I don't see Will and Jacka's being sexless, 0:22:04.520 --> 0:22:06.879 Like obviously it's not like we ever got you know. 0:22:07.280 --> 0:22:10.080 It's like, because this was airing at the same time 0:22:10.119 --> 0:22:13.080 as Queer as Folk, like that is a huge counterpoint. 0:22:13.119 --> 0:22:15.040 It's not like we ever got like rimming on Will 0:22:15.080 --> 0:22:15.560 and Grace. 0:22:15.600 --> 0:22:19.439 But like Will and Jack they looked like they they 0:22:19.440 --> 0:22:22.600 were always dating, they always had boyfriends. 0:22:22.040 --> 0:22:24.399 And like maybe the word rimming was not said, but 0:22:24.440 --> 0:22:26.879 it was implied, like there were like dirty jokes. 0:22:26.920 --> 0:22:27.760 Sure, sure. 0:22:27.960 --> 0:22:30.040 I always think it's interesting that when when we get 0:22:30.040 --> 0:22:32.040 that critique, when people are always like, oh, they were 0:22:32.040 --> 0:22:34.520 so sexless, the gay characters didn't get to have sex. 0:22:34.520 --> 0:22:36.000 And I was like, wait, but like every other joke 0:22:36.080 --> 0:22:38.159 is about a boy, Like yeah, I was like, what 0:22:38.359 --> 0:22:38.600 is that? 0:22:38.840 --> 0:22:40.480 And also I'm now, this is what I was gonna 0:22:40.480 --> 0:22:44.200 say before that I forgot. There's a part I remember specifically, 0:22:44.280 --> 0:22:46.240 there's a sort of meta joke at some point where 0:22:46.240 --> 0:22:49.080 Will says something kind of avertly sexual and then Grace 0:22:49.160 --> 0:22:51.280 is like, don't say that, Will America doesn't like to 0:22:51.280 --> 0:22:53.320 see you as sexual, like, and it's just sort of 0:22:53.760 --> 0:22:57.280 joke on the And I those are the little pockets 0:22:57.320 --> 0:23:00.240 of not to say that that's so subversive, but like, 0:23:00.240 --> 0:23:02.040 those are the little pockets of knowing this that I 0:23:02.040 --> 0:23:05.320 think honestly make it a way more interesting show than 0:23:05.320 --> 0:23:06.480 like a Friends. 0:23:06.200 --> 0:23:07.680 Or something that was on at the same time. 0:23:08.640 --> 0:23:12.520 The show Friends, Friends did not know and I think 0:23:12.640 --> 0:23:15.920 that they understood at the strategic level, like what they 0:23:16.040 --> 0:23:20.240 could and couldn't do with gay identity in public exactly 0:23:20.480 --> 0:23:22.560 in public opinion. And I think that you know, when 0:23:22.600 --> 0:23:24.400 you ask the question is that is this for gay 0:23:24.480 --> 0:23:27.920 or straight people? It would not have been successful if 0:23:27.920 --> 0:23:31.240 it was for gay people, right, Like straight people writ 0:23:31.320 --> 0:23:35.439 large had to give this show its massive popularity in 0:23:35.560 --> 0:23:37.760 order for it to be platformed and successful, right, And 0:23:37.840 --> 0:23:41.240 so like the fact that it was massive and then 0:23:41.720 --> 0:23:44.560 had all of these select you mean Matt Lauer aside, 0:23:44.600 --> 0:23:47.200 like all these celebrities guess starring like Madonna and Matt Damon, 0:23:47.359 --> 0:23:52.480 Jenna Jackson, yeah, Share Jay l Brittany, like all the people. 0:23:52.520 --> 0:23:55.919 And it's like that creates legitimacy, right, and like the 0:23:56.040 --> 0:23:59.240 legitimacy and like the kind of acceptance into mainstream culture 0:23:59.240 --> 0:24:02.880 that the show I guess laid out. It's like what 0:24:03.000 --> 0:24:05.840 gave kids who would watch it at during during its 0:24:05.880 --> 0:24:09.760 run permission to be themselves. You're like, Oh, if they're accepted, 0:24:10.000 --> 0:24:12.600 then maybe i'll be accepted too. Write it's like funny 0:24:12.600 --> 0:24:16.080 because like assimilation is like the number one critique of 0:24:16.119 --> 0:24:18.520 the show, and yet like assimilation is kind of why 0:24:18.600 --> 0:24:19.400 the show. 0:24:21.080 --> 0:24:22.800 Was as impactful as it was totally. 0:24:23.080 --> 0:24:25.159 And again, I don't know why I keep bringing up 0:24:25.160 --> 0:24:28.639 Happy Endings, but I was thinking because I was, I 0:24:28.680 --> 0:24:31.280 don't know, it was in the news or for some 0:24:31.320 --> 0:24:34.520 reason recently. And if you take a show like Happy Endings, 0:24:34.520 --> 0:24:36.560 which has have you every seen Happy Endings ever? 0:24:37.119 --> 0:24:37.239 No? 0:24:37.359 --> 0:24:38.000 What is that about it? 0:24:39.080 --> 0:24:41.160 So it's a show that was it's very Obama era. 0:24:41.320 --> 0:24:44.720 It's like probably I want to say, like twenty ten 0:24:44.840 --> 0:24:49.560 or something, and it's like Casey Wilson's in it. It's 0:24:49.600 --> 0:24:52.240 like a good fun cast, but there's a gay character. 0:24:52.240 --> 0:24:54.720 And the entire sort of running joke about the gay 0:24:54.800 --> 0:24:58.320 character is that he's kind of like the biggest slob 0:24:59.520 --> 0:25:01.040 of all of it, but like he's like very for 0:25:01.119 --> 0:25:03.960 lack of a better term, straight acting. He's like kind 0:25:04.000 --> 0:25:06.920 of a slacker and perpetually unemployed and doesn't dress well 0:25:06.920 --> 0:25:10.080 and is a slob and whatever, and he is part 0:25:10.119 --> 0:25:12.240 of this friend group that is all straight people except him, 0:25:12.280 --> 0:25:14.320 and it's like we're so post gay that they can 0:25:14.320 --> 0:25:15.879 all joke about it and blah blah. And I almost 0:25:15.880 --> 0:25:19.480 feel like something like that is way more pro assimilation 0:25:19.880 --> 0:25:22.639 or conservative than Will and Grace. I mean, Will and 0:25:22.680 --> 0:25:25.760 Grace is essentially portraying like this sort of like many 0:25:26.320 --> 0:25:31.640 chosen family that's like two really oh like absolutely gay 0:25:31.640 --> 0:25:34.639 guys and two women that are like unmarried or I mean, 0:25:34.680 --> 0:25:36.640 I guess Karen is married, but like two women whose 0:25:36.720 --> 0:25:37.560 husbands you don't see. 0:25:37.920 --> 0:25:40.639 Yeah at various at various times, she isn't isn't married, 0:25:40.680 --> 0:25:43.600 and Grace isn't isn't married. But yeah, I was watching 0:25:43.920 --> 0:25:46.399 that episode with the one of the Christmas episodes with 0:25:46.440 --> 0:25:50.480 Blithe Danner and the four of them go to Will's 0:25:50.480 --> 0:25:53.919 mom's house for Christmas like they are a family and 0:25:53.960 --> 0:25:58.680 not only got more and more explicit as the show 0:25:58.720 --> 0:26:03.000 went on, And I think maybe more than anything, that's 0:26:03.119 --> 0:26:06.280 what Will and Grace like kind of presented to the 0:26:06.320 --> 0:26:09.480 world was like one of the first real examples of 0:26:09.520 --> 0:26:13.879 what like a queer Chosen Family could look like, because 0:26:13.920 --> 0:26:16.360 I honestly think looking at something like happy endings, which 0:26:16.400 --> 0:26:19.760 honestly I haven't I haven't watched enough of the show 0:26:19.800 --> 0:26:22.240 to maybe like make this generalization, but I kind of 0:26:22.280 --> 0:26:23.920 think that feels more dated than. 0:26:24.800 --> 0:26:27.919 No, it's one hundred percent, I think, Like, honestly, I 0:26:27.960 --> 0:26:31.480 think sometimes Wow, not to make the biggest generalation of all, 0:26:31.640 --> 0:26:34.000 but I do think sometimes Obama era stuff seems more 0:26:34.080 --> 0:26:35.960 dated than Clinton era stuff in a weird way. 0:26:36.440 --> 0:26:38.960 Like no, yeah, no, I feel that the sort. 0:26:38.840 --> 0:26:44.320 Of kumbaya like everyone's the same spirit of both of 0:26:44.320 --> 0:26:47.320 those eras, it feels way more forced during the Obama era. 0:26:47.640 --> 0:26:49.400 It's sort of like we're like not allowed to look 0:26:49.400 --> 0:26:52.840 at anything ugly ever, whereas at least in the nineties 0:26:52.840 --> 0:26:56.800 you were like not everything was like algorithmically calculated to 0:26:56.840 --> 0:26:58.960 like appeal to a demographic. 0:26:58.480 --> 0:27:01.160 Or whatever anyway. So but yeah, I totally agree. 0:27:01.160 --> 0:27:02.959 I also, I mean in terms of the Chosen Family 0:27:03.040 --> 0:27:05.359 of it all, Like I remember when Will and Grace 0:27:05.400 --> 0:27:07.280 tried to have a baby together. That was like one 0:27:07.280 --> 0:27:09.200 of the only times the show I ever sort of got 0:27:09.240 --> 0:27:13.280 serious because what happened was Grace then met Leo played 0:27:13.280 --> 0:27:18.359 by Harry Connick Junior, and so who is it really 0:27:18.400 --> 0:27:21.640 is the best that I ever looked as is Woody Harrelson, 0:27:21.680 --> 0:27:22.960 also playing Grace's boyfriend. 0:27:22.960 --> 0:27:26.280 By the way, his breakout role, Grace had some really. 0:27:26.520 --> 0:27:28.359 Good I mean, I want to like go back to 0:27:28.400 --> 0:27:30.960 the guest stars because that's actually one of the most 0:27:31.000 --> 0:27:35.040 fascinating parts of Will and Grace. But so Grace sort 0:27:35.040 --> 0:27:37.520 of was planning on having a baby with her gay 0:27:37.520 --> 0:27:41.920 best friend, but then met a a Jewish doctor, which 0:27:41.960 --> 0:27:43.679 is her dream, and then she was like, wait, but 0:27:44.000 --> 0:27:45.520 I have to see where this goes. I can't have 0:27:45.520 --> 0:27:47.760 a baby with my gay best friend yet. And they 0:27:47.800 --> 0:27:50.800 get into this real fight about it, and it's kind 0:27:50.800 --> 0:27:53.639 of I mean, it's kind of something you would never 0:27:53.680 --> 0:27:55.160 see on TV. And I don't even know if you've 0:27:55.280 --> 0:27:58.479 seen it since, Like it's such a specific experience of 0:27:58.520 --> 0:28:03.000 like that generation of you know, assimilating gay men who 0:28:03.040 --> 0:28:07.440 still didn't have you know, domestic partnerships and gay marriage 0:28:07.480 --> 0:28:10.680 and whatever could adopt or whatever. So I do think 0:28:10.720 --> 0:28:14.520 in those ways, it was in its own way ahead 0:28:14.520 --> 0:28:19.240 of its time. Again through this very narrow about this 0:28:19.359 --> 0:28:20.159 very narrow. 0:28:20.000 --> 0:28:20.760 Slipper of the game. 0:28:44.320 --> 0:28:44.640 Okay. 0:28:44.800 --> 0:28:49.360 Something that has always bugs me and like does seem 0:28:49.560 --> 0:28:53.600 slightly unrealistic is the fact that Jack and Will never know. 0:28:54.840 --> 0:28:57.600 There is a say gag midway through where they're like 0:28:57.640 --> 0:28:59.840 they wake up they're in like a cruise ship or 0:28:59.840 --> 0:29:02.480 some thing, or they're in Karen's yeah, I remember, and 0:29:02.520 --> 0:29:04.840 they wake up naked next to each other. I think 0:29:04.840 --> 0:29:07.720 it's revealed that they ultimately that had not had sex, 0:29:07.840 --> 0:29:10.360 but it's like it's sort of a running gag, and 0:29:10.600 --> 0:29:13.360 I think you're so right in that, like the final 0:29:13.400 --> 0:29:15.680 step it doesn't take is the fact that if they 0:29:15.680 --> 0:29:18.600 were actually gay friends, they would have fucked and it 0:29:18.600 --> 0:29:19.360 would have been okay. 0:29:19.440 --> 0:29:21.479 And I feel like that's the version of it. 0:29:21.480 --> 0:29:23.440 It wouldn't have had to be a whole thing that 0:29:23.840 --> 0:29:25.720 they would have just had or or it would have 0:29:25.760 --> 0:29:28.560 happened long before the show started. They would have had 0:29:28.600 --> 0:29:31.640 sex once. And you know, there is a very iconic 0:29:31.880 --> 0:29:36.400 Thanksgiving two parter flashback episode about when Will came out 0:29:36.400 --> 0:29:41.040 to Grace and Jack is sort of Will's like entree 0:29:41.080 --> 0:29:43.239 into gay life and like his mentor a little bit, 0:29:43.520 --> 0:29:46.280 and Jack clearly has a crush on him, and I 0:29:46.360 --> 0:29:49.360 do think that running joke is maybe brought back a 0:29:49.400 --> 0:29:51.560 couple times. It's like probably part of the reason why 0:29:51.640 --> 0:29:54.600 Jack is constantly nagging Will is like he probably does 0:29:54.640 --> 0:29:56.000 have a bit of a thing for him. But yeah, 0:29:56.040 --> 0:30:00.040 like realistically they would have one time, like at some 0:30:00.120 --> 0:30:04.520 fucking gay club, hooked up and then been like, oh, yeah, whatever, 0:30:04.600 --> 0:30:06.360 let's just put friends. 0:30:06.080 --> 0:30:08.240 And not just Jack. Like you don't see that dynamic 0:30:08.280 --> 0:30:10.880 at all throughout the show. They don't have other like 0:30:11.160 --> 0:30:12.760 because they do have a group of gay friends, but 0:30:12.800 --> 0:30:15.200 there's never any sexual history among any of them. 0:30:15.480 --> 0:30:18.240 It's like this couple that has adopted a child. 0:30:18.680 --> 0:30:22.360 Yeah, and they would all be fucking fucking together. Yeah, 0:30:23.040 --> 0:30:25.959 they would be having group sex while Grace was on, 0:30:27.280 --> 0:30:27.960 you know, with Leo. 0:30:28.680 --> 0:30:32.520 Because because they're like so white and so upper class, 0:30:32.560 --> 0:30:35.200 like there is a kind of like like odorless gass 0:30:35.200 --> 0:30:38.080 of like conservatism that's like in some of them. And 0:30:38.200 --> 0:30:41.680 I kind of wonder if like whoever was writing however 0:30:41.720 --> 0:30:44.200 they were writing the show, is like maybe like rich 0:30:44.320 --> 0:30:47.240 gays don't hook up with their friends like they maybe 0:30:47.280 --> 0:30:49.440 there's sluts, but it's like there's some like kind of 0:30:49.480 --> 0:30:53.960 emotional conservative like guardrail around sex meaning something or something 0:30:53.960 --> 0:30:54.360 I don't know. 0:30:54.440 --> 0:30:55.560 Well, it's also the aids. 0:30:55.560 --> 0:30:57.920 I mean, it's also again like the late nineties post 0:30:57.920 --> 0:30:59.880 AIGs thing where it's like, well, if we're not a 0:31:00.080 --> 0:31:02.320 dressing that, then we're certainly not having them all, like 0:31:02.760 --> 0:31:05.880 going around having sex with one another, Like. 0:31:06.440 --> 0:31:10.040 Yeah, yeah, well I think also it's probably that because 0:31:10.080 --> 0:31:12.840 there were so many straight people having their hands on 0:31:12.880 --> 0:31:16.680 the show, Like straight people truly cannot conceptualize of a 0:31:16.720 --> 0:31:19.960 world in which you have casual sex with your friends 0:31:20.000 --> 0:31:20.400 and then. 0:31:20.600 --> 0:31:24.000 Stay ye and like it's they just and also as 0:31:24.040 --> 0:31:27.120 accepting as they were and as accepting as straight people 0:31:27.280 --> 0:31:30.560 can be in their hearts, they still think what every 0:31:30.560 --> 0:31:33.680 gay person wants is to settle down and have children 0:31:33.760 --> 0:31:37.760 in a monogamous relationship. Like it's more of a recent 0:31:37.840 --> 0:31:41.960 thing to be like accepting of other romantic lifestyles. 0:31:42.000 --> 0:31:46.640 I feel, yeah, like polyamory, which, according according to TikTok, 0:31:46.760 --> 0:31:54.040 polyamorous people are like the most you know, maligned and marginalized. 0:31:53.480 --> 0:31:54.920 People, and we are marching at dawn. 0:31:56.240 --> 0:31:59.040 I'm not marching for for polyamorous people. 0:32:00.360 --> 0:32:02.760 Okay, So speaking of like Will and Jack, I do 0:32:02.840 --> 0:32:06.040 remember in the last season there is this moment that 0:32:06.160 --> 0:32:09.040 happens that centers around the idea of a gay kiss 0:32:08.680 --> 0:32:11.880 on TV, and I do like how Will and Grace 0:32:11.960 --> 0:32:14.440 is continuously like meta, like you can tell like what 0:32:14.480 --> 0:32:16.560 they're aware of, what they can get away with or whatever. 0:32:17.240 --> 0:32:21.120 And in the actual episode, Will and Jack are anticipating 0:32:21.120 --> 0:32:23.080 what is supposed to be. Isn't it supposed to be 0:32:23.080 --> 0:32:26.080 like the first gay kiss on h on network television 0:32:26.160 --> 0:32:30.280 or something on an episode of NCIS And then they 0:32:30.320 --> 0:32:32.920 try to watch it and it doesn't happen, like it's 0:32:32.960 --> 0:32:35.800 cut for cut from you know, network TV or whatever. 0:32:36.360 --> 0:32:39.920 And I'm pretty sure that it mirrors an actual thing 0:32:39.920 --> 0:32:42.080 that happened in like gay TV history, where in there 0:32:42.120 --> 0:32:43.320 was supposed to be a gay kiss and then it 0:32:43.320 --> 0:32:45.680 was cut. And so as a part of their last season, 0:32:46.480 --> 0:32:50.240 they stage up protests wherein they kiss on Good Morning 0:32:50.280 --> 0:32:53.160 America in front of Al Roker and Will and Jack 0:32:53.640 --> 0:32:58.479 kiss on Morning TV basically the live Morning TV and 0:32:58.520 --> 0:33:02.520 then they become the first gay kiss on TV, which 0:33:02.560 --> 0:33:04.800 is like kind of genius. It's like really genius and 0:33:04.880 --> 0:33:07.040 fun and also talks about like the first like the 0:33:07.040 --> 0:33:09.520 first gay stuff is like that's like a that's a 0:33:09.600 --> 0:33:12.320 joke that will like remain relevant, like jokes that are 0:33:12.640 --> 0:33:15.360 jokes are still on SNL about that, you know what 0:33:15.440 --> 0:33:15.760 I mean? 0:33:16.800 --> 0:33:19.560 Yeah, I mean even in terms of the sort of 0:33:19.680 --> 0:33:22.920 meta the meta element of it, even when when Britney 0:33:22.920 --> 0:33:26.720 Spears guest stars famously she plays a conservative talk show 0:33:26.720 --> 0:33:31.320 host that the new conservative network that has bought out TV, 0:33:31.480 --> 0:33:34.120 which is the network that Jack works at, has placed 0:33:34.120 --> 0:33:36.480 there to make the show more conservative. And I feel 0:33:36.520 --> 0:33:39.120 like that's also a sort of commentary on like what 0:33:39.200 --> 0:33:42.480 you can get away with what the quote unquote the suits, like, 0:33:43.640 --> 0:33:47.040 you know, want, versus what the people want people making 0:33:47.040 --> 0:33:52.320 a show want. Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's very it's 0:33:52.400 --> 0:33:55.120 very sort of aware of the of the culture surrounding it. 0:33:57.400 --> 0:34:00.000 I want to rewind really quick, because we didn't get 0:34:00.120 --> 0:34:03.120 a chance to talk about, like I guess where we 0:34:03.120 --> 0:34:05.920 were in time when we first watched Will and Grace. 0:34:06.040 --> 0:34:08.919 I have already sat on the pot that right around 0:34:08.920 --> 0:34:11.279 the time, I still wasn't allowed to watch like mainstream things, 0:34:11.280 --> 0:34:13.239 but I like was saving my own money to buy 0:34:13.280 --> 0:34:16.160 my own shit. I did buy this season six box 0:34:16.160 --> 0:34:18.279 set of Will and Grace and hid it under my bed, 0:34:18.320 --> 0:34:20.560 and my mom ended up like confiscating it and throwing 0:34:20.560 --> 0:34:23.759 it away, so that to me is like but I 0:34:23.840 --> 0:34:26.520 remember loving it and being like what the fuck is this? Like, 0:34:26.600 --> 0:34:29.360 how is this allowed to be in the culture? 0:34:29.520 --> 0:34:33.319 Whatever? What are y'all's memories, I guess are attachment to it. 0:34:33.920 --> 0:34:37.840 I distinctly remember the first the first time I was 0:34:37.840 --> 0:34:40.719 like channel surfing and caught it on TV, and I 0:34:40.760 --> 0:34:42.640 wish I remember the context of this scene, but it's 0:34:42.680 --> 0:34:45.520 like a scene where I think Will is coming back 0:34:45.560 --> 0:34:48.879 from Paris, I want to say, and he had sent 0:34:49.040 --> 0:34:51.839 back a T shirt that has like the Eiffel Tower 0:34:51.880 --> 0:34:57.319 on it that was meant for Jack's son that he 0:34:57.360 --> 0:34:59.640 has with like the lesbian couple with Rosio done all over, 0:35:00.000 --> 0:35:02.400 but Jack had misunderstood and thought the T shirt was 0:35:02.400 --> 0:35:03.839 for him. So the big reveal is that he takes 0:35:03.840 --> 0:35:05.640 off his Bathrob when he's wearing like a belly shirt 0:35:05.640 --> 0:35:07.360 that has the Eiffel Tower on it, which is clearly 0:35:07.400 --> 0:35:09.480 like a kid's shirt, and he's like, this wasn't for me, 0:35:09.560 --> 0:35:12.040 and it's like, of course he's so gay that he 0:35:12.080 --> 0:35:14.440 thought like a children's shirt was for him or whatever. 0:35:14.640 --> 0:35:18.960 And I just remember being like almost I in no 0:35:19.080 --> 0:35:20.839 way was aware that I might be gay. At the time, 0:35:20.880 --> 0:35:25.960 I was, you know, probably like eleven or twelve or something, 0:35:26.320 --> 0:35:28.799 and I remember being so sort of like humiliated by 0:35:28.800 --> 0:35:30.759 the sight of that and being like, oh, God, like 0:35:30.840 --> 0:35:33.120 men shouldn't do that, Like this is so like why 0:35:33.160 --> 0:35:36.759 is he being so feminine? Well, they shouldn't is Let's 0:35:36.840 --> 0:35:38.560 be real, And that's kind of the moral of the 0:35:38.600 --> 0:35:39.359 show at the end. 0:35:41.400 --> 0:35:43.439 So I have that memory of it. 0:35:44.080 --> 0:35:45.640 But then at the same time, it was very sort 0:35:45.640 --> 0:35:47.840 of like intrigued and titillated by it and found it 0:35:47.920 --> 0:35:48.799 very funny, and I. 0:35:48.719 --> 0:35:49.799 Like wanted to watch more of it. 0:35:49.920 --> 0:35:53.799 And the other thing is so at the time we 0:35:53.800 --> 0:35:56.719 were living in so my parents immigrated from Greece, and 0:35:56.760 --> 0:35:58.000 then we lived in New Jersey, and then when I 0:35:58.080 --> 0:35:59.560 was thirteen, we moved back to Greece. So I have 0:35:59.640 --> 0:36:01.200 sort of these two parts of my life where I 0:36:01.239 --> 0:36:04.200 was like in America and then outside. And so this 0:36:04.280 --> 0:36:06.440 was still in New Jersey and we went to a 0:36:06.480 --> 0:36:09.080 Greek church that was in no way conservative. It was like, 0:36:09.800 --> 0:36:12.279 you know, in like a blue state. It was not 0:36:12.480 --> 0:36:16.080 like Catholic whatever. But for whatever reason, I remember in 0:36:16.120 --> 0:36:19.440 Sunday school the teacher calling out specifically Will and Grace 0:36:19.480 --> 0:36:22.120 has like this uniquely evil thing, and he had like 0:36:22.200 --> 0:36:24.759 never talked about pop culture before or music or TV 0:36:24.880 --> 0:36:26.640 or movies, but that was like the one thing I 0:36:26.680 --> 0:36:29.760 remember he singled out. So from the beginning, I almost 0:36:29.800 --> 0:36:33.120 like had caught on that it was something controversial before 0:36:33.120 --> 0:36:36.440 I knew what it even was on its own, you know, 0:36:36.840 --> 0:36:41.440 on its own. And then I think I really got 0:36:41.480 --> 0:36:45.760 into it, probably after it stopped airing, because I started 0:36:45.840 --> 0:36:49.520 just like watching it, like renting it, renting the DVDs, 0:36:49.840 --> 0:36:52.359 or like watching it online. And it became sort of 0:36:52.400 --> 0:36:56.560 like a comfort watch, like my number one comfort watch 0:36:56.640 --> 0:36:58.520 throughout like high school and college that I would like 0:36:58.560 --> 0:37:00.480 return to, or if I was like home for the 0:37:00.560 --> 0:37:02.600 Christmas for Christmas break or something, I would just like 0:37:02.680 --> 0:37:04.440 let it play in the background and watch like twelve 0:37:04.480 --> 0:37:10.560 episodes in a row. And Yeah, and it's interesting because 0:37:10.560 --> 0:37:14.960 it hasn't had the same kind of nostalgic legacy as 0:37:15.120 --> 0:37:19.880 even even like Friends or something like yes, it was rebooted, whatever, 0:37:19.920 --> 0:37:23.640 But you don't really see you know, you don't see 0:37:23.640 --> 0:37:26.080 a lot of like gifts of it or like people 0:37:26.239 --> 0:37:27.120 constantly quoting it. 0:37:27.160 --> 0:37:28.680 I mean you see some, but it's really not. 0:37:28.680 --> 0:37:31.000 As much as as as a lot of this other 0:37:31.000 --> 0:37:32.920 stuff that has had like a second life on streaming. 0:37:33.760 --> 0:37:35.560 Yeah, there are no Will and Grace t shirts at 0:37:35.600 --> 0:37:38.279 hot topic, right, Yeah, there are lots of Friends t 0:37:38.360 --> 0:37:39.719 shirts at hot topic. 0:37:39.480 --> 0:37:42.440 Even though it even though it is I believe, still 0:37:42.560 --> 0:37:46.640 in syndication. Yeah, I think you can still turn on 0:37:46.920 --> 0:37:49.880 you know, TBS and catch an episode of Will and Grace. 0:37:50.640 --> 0:37:53.600 You were talking talking about this episode with like the 0:37:53.719 --> 0:37:57.640 Eiffel Tower shirt. The femininity really was like a sticking 0:37:57.680 --> 0:38:00.560 point for pretty much everyone that ever can the show, 0:38:00.680 --> 0:38:03.000 and it was like a reason for people to basically 0:38:03.080 --> 0:38:05.640 hate it, whether you were gay or straight. And like, 0:38:06.280 --> 0:38:09.360 I think it honestly the kind of like, oh God 0:38:09.520 --> 0:38:11.400 like terror feeling that like I. 0:38:11.280 --> 0:38:13.160 Definitely felt as a kid when I watched it, that. 0:38:13.120 --> 0:38:14.720 You felt as a kid that a lot of people 0:38:15.080 --> 0:38:18.960 feel when they first see a flamboyant character on screen. 0:38:20.320 --> 0:38:24.879 Like had a lot to do with like, uh wait, 0:38:24.920 --> 0:38:25.920 what's what the. 0:38:25.880 --> 0:38:30.400 Guy that plays with Jack, what's his name? Sean Hayes's 0:38:30.480 --> 0:38:32.279 physical comedic brilliance? 0:38:32.600 --> 0:38:37.759 Like he's such a a comedic genius as a physical comic, like. 0:38:39.440 --> 0:38:40.280 Insurmountable. 0:38:40.360 --> 0:38:42.880 And I think that his femininity and what he was 0:38:42.920 --> 0:38:47.319 able to do with physical comedy, comedy and femininity is 0:38:47.440 --> 0:38:50.000 why we were terrified, but also why it was radical 0:38:50.040 --> 0:38:52.600 because I didn't get ninety percent of those jokes. 0:38:52.880 --> 0:38:55.480 I didn't understand a lot of the zingers, but. 0:38:55.440 --> 0:38:58.919 I understood what was physically funny about the show every 0:38:58.960 --> 0:39:03.200 single character, including Sean Hayes obviously, but everybody's great at 0:39:03.200 --> 0:39:03.880 physical comedy. 0:39:04.000 --> 0:39:06.640 I feel, I mean, I'm glad you brought up the 0:39:06.920 --> 0:39:10.000 sort of backlash against that character specifically because I mean, 0:39:10.120 --> 0:39:12.560 especially among gay people, it was like, this is so 0:39:12.800 --> 0:39:16.640 harmful because it is perpetuating this harmful stereotype that gasp, 0:39:16.760 --> 0:39:20.799 gay men or queenie like you know, it's like, yeah, 0:39:20.960 --> 0:39:25.600 they are, and I think it really I notice you. 0:39:25.560 --> 0:39:28.360 Say they and not we. Well, yeah, I'm sort of 0:39:28.360 --> 0:39:32.120 more of a will part of that, but like, yeah, 0:39:32.120 --> 0:39:32.960 I've met people like. 0:39:32.920 --> 0:39:36.400 That for sure, and I accept them. Yeah, sure, But 0:39:36.680 --> 0:39:39.200 I do think it really overshadows the fact that it 0:39:39.239 --> 0:39:43.160 was this like genius performance, like to reduce that to like, oh, 0:39:43.200 --> 0:39:46.120 he's being flamboyant, when it's so much more like he's 0:39:46.120 --> 0:39:48.400 not being flamboyant in the way that like the bitchy 0:39:48.440 --> 0:39:51.320 assistant in a rom Com is being flamboyant he's. 0:39:51.200 --> 0:39:51.680 Doing like. 0:39:53.239 --> 0:39:55.759 I mean, it's just like it's one of them, one 0:39:55.800 --> 0:39:58.239 of them brilliant sitcom performances of all time. 0:39:59.239 --> 0:40:03.080 Oh, I mean, honestly, every single one of them, in 0:40:03.239 --> 0:40:09.920 a different way is giving an incredible comedic performance. Eric McCormick, 0:40:10.160 --> 0:40:13.319 like also, I think is a great physical comedian, like 0:40:13.360 --> 0:40:16.360 has this very sort of like gummy quality to his face. 0:40:16.440 --> 0:40:16.640 You know. 0:40:17.040 --> 0:40:21.120 Deborah Messing it like kind of is in the same boat. 0:40:21.239 --> 0:40:22.440 Megan Malally like. 0:40:22.640 --> 0:40:23.880 Is a genius. 0:40:24.040 --> 0:40:25.959 And Karen is is mother. 0:40:26.320 --> 0:40:28.719 Karen she is some mother for that she is like 0:40:29.480 --> 0:40:33.440 she she just she is the divadal herself. They all 0:40:33.640 --> 0:40:37.319 were were incredible and the show, I mean, you know, 0:40:37.360 --> 0:40:39.319 we were talking about like where we all were when 0:40:39.320 --> 0:40:41.799 this show came out, and like I like have such 0:40:41.800 --> 0:40:44.400 a like boring context for it, because like I was 0:40:44.440 --> 0:40:46.840 just allowed to watch whatever and like my family and 0:40:46.880 --> 0:40:50.840 I definitely like watched this as part of that Thursday 0:40:50.880 --> 0:40:54.080 night block Musty TV with Friends and Seinfeld and like 0:40:54.200 --> 0:40:57.239 whatever other shows were on at the time, and like 0:40:58.560 --> 0:41:04.239 somehow this show both seamlessly blended into the other sitcoms 0:41:04.520 --> 0:41:07.239 that existed at the time because of the kind of 0:41:07.719 --> 0:41:13.160 performances the actors were giving and also absolutely stuck out 0:41:13.160 --> 0:41:15.160 and was singular for the same reason. 0:41:17.800 --> 0:41:21.640 Also Deborah Messing, like I know, we all sort of 0:41:21.680 --> 0:41:23.720 roll our eyes at her now and with good reason 0:41:24.480 --> 0:41:26.840 when you look back on her, just her as a 0:41:26.840 --> 0:41:31.120 comedic actress, like she is giving Lucille ball like it is. 0:41:31.719 --> 0:41:34.440 She is, the way she uses her voice, I mean, 0:41:34.640 --> 0:41:35.080 and and. 0:41:35.160 --> 0:41:37.719 Also like there's a sort of not to use this 0:41:38.239 --> 0:41:40.080 excuse mer not to use the word I'm choking up, 0:41:40.239 --> 0:41:42.719 not to use the word brave, but there's a sort 0:41:42.719 --> 0:41:46.040 of like bravery to like the way that she really 0:41:46.080 --> 0:41:49.439 does just like debase herself physically. Like there's a part 0:41:49.520 --> 0:41:52.799 there's a one episode where she's wearing this dress, this 0:41:52.920 --> 0:41:55.200 very low cut dress without a bra, and the gag 0:41:55.280 --> 0:41:58.600 is that Karen is fixing her boobs but they keep 0:41:58.640 --> 0:42:01.160 like sacked, so she like pulls them up and then 0:42:01.200 --> 0:42:03.839 they keep sagging, and it goes on for truly like 0:42:04.400 --> 0:42:07.560 twenty seconds of like Grace sitting there with her moves 0:42:07.600 --> 0:42:10.480 all but exposed and Karen like trying to pull them up, 0:42:10.520 --> 0:42:13.080 but then they keep sagging because Grace is so disgusting. 0:42:13.160 --> 0:42:15.799 Like that's like the joke of the and it's like, 0:42:16.840 --> 0:42:20.080 you know, it's not nothing like to just sit there. 0:42:21.080 --> 0:42:23.600 It's very brave of her. And I think they all 0:42:23.960 --> 0:42:27.240 you know, won Emmys and Golden Globes at various points 0:42:28.040 --> 0:42:30.680 throughout the show's run, also thinking about okay, thinking about 0:42:30.719 --> 0:42:32.919 the grace of it all, Like this is very Will 0:42:32.960 --> 0:42:33.600 and Grace is. 0:42:33.560 --> 0:42:34.520 Like peak fag. 0:42:36.480 --> 0:42:38.359 I mean, Will and Grace is just like there are 0:42:38.440 --> 0:42:40.360 gay men and there are straight women period. 0:42:40.560 --> 0:42:42.959 Like that's I think that's like what we've been. 0:42:43.120 --> 0:42:45.719 Of, like because we were all very like you know, 0:42:46.440 --> 0:42:48.200 we're being sort of redemptive about it and we're being 0:42:48.239 --> 0:42:50.480 positive about it. But like obviously all of us are 0:42:50.520 --> 0:42:53.200 aware of like the shortcomings of the show. 0:42:53.280 --> 0:42:56.120 Like yeah, there's nothing. Yeah, like we're not mentioning them. 0:42:56.000 --> 0:42:58.480 Because I assume your listeners are smart enough to like 0:42:58.520 --> 0:43:00.480 know them already and we can sort of like ellegrated 0:43:00.520 --> 0:43:03.520 for what it is. But like it was peak fag 0:43:03.600 --> 0:43:07.080 hag culture. It was peak like I mean, the way 0:43:07.200 --> 0:43:10.440 I'm not even gonna talk like the way that trans 0:43:10.480 --> 0:43:14.480 people were like dealt with was like not even you know, 0:43:14.520 --> 0:43:17.160 as though like not in human but even lesbians. 0:43:17.239 --> 0:43:19.640 Well I clocked a joke with that Will made in 0:43:19.680 --> 0:43:21.840 one of the episodes I was watching yesterday where he 0:43:21.960 --> 0:43:24.280 was like I was the only boy who did some 0:43:24.400 --> 0:43:27.120 kind of like gay thing. He's like, well, the only 0:43:27.160 --> 0:43:29.440 one who still a boy, And it was like just 0:43:29.440 --> 0:43:30.160 stuff like that. 0:43:30.200 --> 0:43:33.600 But even les I mean, you know, even lesbians though, 0:43:33.800 --> 0:43:36.880 were also the punchlines. Like you could argue that like, 0:43:36.960 --> 0:43:40.960 oh we were not as close to sort of you know, 0:43:42.160 --> 0:43:45.600 mainstream acceptance of trans people at the time. Fine, but 0:43:45.680 --> 0:43:48.719 like what but but there was a sort of way 0:43:48.719 --> 0:43:50.919 in which it was like, well, it's gay men's turn, now, 0:43:51.080 --> 0:43:53.960 maybe lesbians will get a turn later. Like it was 0:43:54.040 --> 0:43:56.400 it was a show about gay men, and like whenever 0:43:56.520 --> 0:43:59.080 lesbians were on, they were like truly the butt of 0:43:59.120 --> 0:43:59.439 the joke. 0:44:00.400 --> 0:44:01.839 Oh yeah, every single time. 0:44:01.960 --> 0:44:05.719 I mean yeah, I think that, like it's funny because obviously, yeah, 0:44:05.760 --> 0:44:07.200 a lot of a lot of things like that are 0:44:07.239 --> 0:44:09.239 like very reductive and all that jazz. 0:44:09.000 --> 0:44:12.640 And like I do think that like contemporary. 0:44:12.000 --> 0:44:14.239 Criticism, like people that were critical of it while it 0:44:14.360 --> 0:44:16.680 was running, a lot of them came back to this 0:44:16.680 --> 0:44:19.560 this thing about like homogeneity, right, like this is not 0:44:19.760 --> 0:44:22.359 all of us, So why you know, why are these 0:44:22.440 --> 0:44:23.240 characters so flat. 0:44:23.239 --> 0:44:25.239 Why don't they have sex? Why don't they have inner lives? 0:44:25.239 --> 0:44:27.680 And I'm like, it's a sitcom about upper or white 0:44:27.840 --> 0:44:30.239 about upper class like white faggots, like. 0:44:30.480 --> 0:44:32.319 And it's also it's not all of us, but it's 0:44:32.360 --> 0:44:34.200 so it's such a lot of us. 0:44:34.040 --> 0:44:38.000 And that's like it's it's scarcity, right, is like what 0:44:38.160 --> 0:44:40.479 creates that? Like it's like all of us, like eating 0:44:40.480 --> 0:44:42.360 each other alive is like a product of the oppression. 0:44:42.360 --> 0:44:44.600 And it's like because there were only two other gay 0:44:44.640 --> 0:44:49.480 shows out at the time, probably like we all hate 0:44:49.560 --> 0:44:52.600 all of them, and like it's interesting that like now 0:44:52.880 --> 0:44:56.000 in twenty twenty two, when we have like seven hundred 0:44:56.120 --> 0:44:58.000 gay shows, we still. 0:44:57.719 --> 0:44:59.879 All, oh a hundred or yeah. 0:45:00.239 --> 0:45:04.640 Yeah, it's kind of really using, I mean because yeah. 0:45:04.560 --> 0:45:07.960 And again it's almost like like it goes back to 0:45:08.000 --> 0:45:10.440 the bookstore versus Jim thing. It's like there's a certain 0:45:10.520 --> 0:45:13.200 honesty to what it was depicting. Like it was not 0:45:13.360 --> 0:45:17.440 depicting a diverse friend group where everyone is of a 0:45:17.480 --> 0:45:21.600 different socioeconomic status. It was depicting a very specific group 0:45:21.600 --> 0:45:27.319 of people, like two upwardly mobile, rich professionals and then 0:45:27.360 --> 0:45:29.680 like there are two friends, one of which is like 0:45:30.600 --> 0:45:32.719 a dumb faggot, and the other one of which is 0:45:32.760 --> 0:45:36.400 like an you know this like wealthy, fictional wealthy woman 0:45:36.480 --> 0:45:38.680 that exists as like an imagination of a gay man, 0:45:38.760 --> 0:45:47.560 you know, like so housing the way I I thought 0:45:47.600 --> 0:45:52.440 that was the funniest thing. Wait, God, there was like 0:45:52.560 --> 0:45:55.479 one line where Karen goes, so Grace is talking about 0:45:55.520 --> 0:45:57.439 something kind of lame and boring or whatever, but she's 0:45:57.480 --> 0:45:59.960 like portraying it as interesting. I think she's talking about 0:45:59.960 --> 0:46:02.200 like planning a game night, so it's like something really stupid, 0:46:02.520 --> 0:46:05.319 and Karen is just like rolling her eyes, and after 0:46:05.440 --> 0:46:09.160 every sentence Grace says, she just like expresses her exasperation 0:46:09.239 --> 0:46:11.000 even more. And then the final thing she says is 0:46:11.280 --> 0:46:13.680 which lever do I pull to be crushed by a safe? 0:46:14.200 --> 0:46:17.640 And it's just like, I mean, it's such a perfect 0:46:18.280 --> 0:46:39.759 Karen Lyne. 0:46:41.520 --> 0:46:44.480 It was jokes on jokes on jokes on jokes. 0:46:44.560 --> 0:46:45.440 They never stopped. 0:46:45.440 --> 0:46:47.799 I mean, that's what happens when, you know, in ye 0:46:47.840 --> 0:46:50.160 olden days, when they're like twenty writers in the right 0:46:50.200 --> 0:46:53.759 and they're all getting paid real money and get residuals 0:46:53.800 --> 0:46:58.440 to this day, mama, yea truly, and it's wild to 0:46:58.480 --> 0:47:02.120 think that, like Eric McCormick is still heterosexual, and like, 0:47:02.239 --> 0:47:07.080 that's crazy, and what an interesting post Will and Grace's 0:47:07.120 --> 0:47:09.640 career he's had. Because the only thing I ever the 0:47:09.680 --> 0:47:11.439 only thing I've ever seen him in is he did 0:47:11.640 --> 0:47:14.600 an episode on Lonard SVU where he was the villain. 0:47:14.920 --> 0:47:16.200 It's very creepy. 0:47:16.320 --> 0:47:19.480 Oh, I honestly, I'm kind of I'm depressed by the 0:47:19.480 --> 0:47:22.080 fact that, like none of them really do much anymore. 0:47:22.200 --> 0:47:25.080 Like I do think they all have like a sublime 0:47:25.520 --> 0:47:26.680 ingenuity that would lend. 0:47:26.600 --> 0:47:28.320 Itself so well to other shows. 0:47:28.360 --> 0:47:31.120 Like I mean, well, they've all done things like Megan 0:47:31.160 --> 0:47:35.279 Malally what is incredible on Parks and rec like she 0:47:35.480 --> 0:47:37.560 was a recurring but that was a guest star. 0:47:39.200 --> 0:47:42.520 Is coming up? So do you guys know Josh Sharp 0:47:42.560 --> 0:47:48.160 and Aaron Jackson. Yes, she's in there movie which you know, 0:47:48.360 --> 0:47:51.279 not to brag. I've seen a cut of and oh 0:47:52.120 --> 0:47:57.200 when I tell you, I when I tell you You're gonna die. 0:47:57.560 --> 0:48:00.320 I mean it is like it's like all bets are off, 0:48:00.680 --> 0:48:02.840 Like it is a performance unlike anything I've ever seen. 0:48:03.880 --> 0:48:04.720 I'm so excited. 0:48:04.760 --> 0:48:07.120 Well, she has that, she has that in her and 0:48:07.200 --> 0:48:10.040 always has and like the thing I think that the 0:48:10.160 --> 0:48:13.520 reason why we're like they all deserve more is because 0:48:13.560 --> 0:48:16.920 we're not like I don't think we're accurately remembering the 0:48:16.960 --> 0:48:20.480 time when this show was such a cultural jug ornau 0:48:20.640 --> 0:48:24.840 and these were incredibly famous people who were like winning 0:48:24.880 --> 0:48:29.120 Emmys and Golden Globes every year, and like probably like 0:48:29.239 --> 0:48:32.279 they all enjoy the fact that they only have to 0:48:32.400 --> 0:48:35.880 work when they want to. And you know, even someone 0:48:35.920 --> 0:48:38.960 like Sean hay Is like really like is very seems 0:48:38.960 --> 0:48:42.200 to be very selective about what he like gets involved with, 0:48:42.239 --> 0:48:45.359 and like he was he was in that Netflix show 0:48:45.440 --> 0:48:47.920 Q Force and was a producer on it, and like, 0:48:48.520 --> 0:48:52.640 you know, I think like they're again like they are 0:48:52.680 --> 0:48:55.360 all making tons of residuals because like this is a 0:48:55.400 --> 0:48:58.759 sitcom and there are a million episodes of it, and like, 0:48:59.320 --> 0:49:02.040 of course, yes, I wish we saw more of them, 0:49:02.160 --> 0:49:05.319 and maybe who knows, like this movie will be a 0:49:05.360 --> 0:49:09.000 moment to like reinsert Megan Malali back in pop culture. 0:49:09.040 --> 0:49:11.520 But like, I don't think it's like necessarily fair to 0:49:11.560 --> 0:49:13.560 say that like they've done nothing. 0:49:15.320 --> 0:49:20.520 It's more like there aren't that many, like there aren't 0:49:20.520 --> 0:49:23.279 that many sitcoms like that where the full range of 0:49:23.280 --> 0:49:27.560 their talents could be yes, played like because they are. Yeah, 0:49:27.560 --> 0:49:29.800 you're right, they are all consistently. I mean Megamali especially 0:49:29.960 --> 0:49:32.399 has had truly I mean it's funny, like talking about 0:49:32.400 --> 0:49:34.799 happy endings. She plays Casey Wilson's mom and happy endings 0:49:34.800 --> 0:49:36.680 and it's like a very funny role. Or like she'll 0:49:36.719 --> 0:49:40.200 be in Parkson Regg, she'll be in Oh god, she 0:49:40.280 --> 0:49:42.000 was recently in something and she was really good. Anyway, 0:49:42.160 --> 0:49:45.960 it's they're all doing. I mean, listen, Deborah Messing was 0:49:46.960 --> 0:49:49.239 has done a lot of stage work, none of it, 0:49:49.360 --> 0:49:54.040 none of it. She also she also had that show 0:49:54.120 --> 0:49:56.880 where she was Yes Hemistry Laura and. 0:49:56.719 --> 0:50:00.520 She and she was she was a. 0:50:00.560 --> 0:50:03.640 Cop in that movie Searching. Oh my god, all right, 0:50:03.800 --> 0:50:09.720 why does she like playing cop? You? You are both reaching. 0:50:09.600 --> 0:50:12.160 So you forget about. 0:50:13.840 --> 0:50:15.040 Okay, No, here's what I'm trying. 0:50:15.239 --> 0:50:17.120 Here's what Here's what I'm getting at when I by 0:50:17.400 --> 0:50:19.680 mentioning it rose, I think you're looking at it through 0:50:19.760 --> 0:50:23.239 rose color classes to say that they are being yes, 0:50:23.520 --> 0:50:25.799 to say that they're being selective about like I think 0:50:26.000 --> 0:50:29.960 I think we're taking for granted just how homophobic Hollywood 0:50:30.200 --> 0:50:31.480 is and still is. 0:50:31.719 --> 0:50:33.800 And I think that baby, it's not. 0:50:36.800 --> 0:50:38.839 And I think no, I do think that, like like 0:50:39.160 --> 0:50:42.879 when you are known for doing one gay thing for 0:50:42.960 --> 0:50:46.480 eight years, you'll never get any work outside of that, 0:50:46.600 --> 0:50:49.560 Like like I mean, especially Sean and Sean and Eric, 0:50:49.680 --> 0:50:52.440 like no one would ever ever ever cast them in 0:50:52.880 --> 0:50:56.960 straight like major movie or TV show, like straight roles, 0:50:57.040 --> 0:51:00.200 different types anything, like it's not gonna work. And with 0:51:00.200 --> 0:51:03.640 with Deborah Messing and Megan Malalley, I would I would 0:51:03.640 --> 0:51:07.680 wager that their reputation and their commitment to a historically 0:51:07.719 --> 0:51:11.160 gay show is part of like what deters them from 0:51:11.160 --> 0:51:12.880 being bookable in other places. 0:51:12.880 --> 0:51:14.800 And like I don't think I would say that if. 0:51:14.600 --> 0:51:17.920 Like Deborah Messing wasn't so desperate about like being in 0:51:17.960 --> 0:51:21.399 the Lucille Ball biopic or like constantly pitching herself for things. 0:51:21.440 --> 0:51:23.239 And I'm like, girl, like you're a legend. You don't 0:51:23.280 --> 0:51:24.200 need to be doing this. 0:51:24.600 --> 0:51:27.520 And I and I think part of like where I'm 0:51:27.560 --> 0:51:31.160 going as like you know Ellen, when Ellen came out, 0:51:31.440 --> 0:51:35.640 she did like pay like she paved the way for 0:51:35.719 --> 0:51:38.320 Will and Grace to exist. But like when Laura Dern 0:51:38.360 --> 0:51:42.520 played Ellen's love interest for that episode of TV of 0:51:42.560 --> 0:51:44.839 her coming out TV show, she did not get work 0:51:44.880 --> 0:51:48.000 for like what six seven eight years, she got like 0:51:48.080 --> 0:51:48.680 death threats. 0:51:48.719 --> 0:51:50.440 She was like cast out from Hollywood. 0:51:50.480 --> 0:51:54.600 Like there's so much like residual homophobia that like makes 0:51:54.960 --> 0:51:58.839 people associated with queer things I guess not bookable. And 0:51:58.880 --> 0:52:00.919 if it's not a f and if it's not homophobia, 0:52:01.360 --> 0:52:06.080 it's actually just like the limitedness of casting directors totally. 0:52:06.200 --> 0:52:08.719 And well, yeah, I do think a big part of 0:52:08.719 --> 0:52:11.680 it is the sitcom of it all is that it's 0:52:11.760 --> 0:52:14.680 probably very hard for a casting director to look at 0:52:14.680 --> 0:52:19.080 Sean Hayes and see him as anything other than just Jack, 0:52:19.400 --> 0:52:22.920 you know, like, and it's hard for audiences probably. 0:52:22.680 --> 0:52:24.080 To do the same. 0:52:24.360 --> 0:52:27.880 And I'm sure that, bundled with the extreme homophobia of 0:52:27.920 --> 0:52:32.759 the world and of Hollywood, makes it hard for them. 0:52:32.800 --> 0:52:35.640 I mean Sean Hayes specifically, it's interesting has like rebranded 0:52:35.719 --> 0:52:37.400 himself as a sort of power producer. 0:52:37.440 --> 0:52:38.239 Like if you go to his. 0:52:39.680 --> 0:52:42.480 He's really like produced a lot of stuff and he's 0:52:42.520 --> 0:52:44.480 like someone people really want to work with. 0:52:44.520 --> 0:52:45.960 And I think he has like a good reputation. 0:52:46.120 --> 0:52:48.839 I mean, of course, like God will strike me dead 0:52:48.880 --> 0:52:51.960 because tomorrow it'll reveal that like I don't know, he threw. 0:52:51.800 --> 0:52:54.359 Someone out a window. But yeah, I wish that's mess 0:52:54.440 --> 0:52:55.279 with the best. 0:52:56.000 --> 0:52:56.400 Truly. 0:52:56.640 --> 0:52:59.160 I want so much for her, I want so much. 0:52:59.280 --> 0:53:01.239 Well, she she's an icon and she. 0:53:01.239 --> 0:53:04.040 Still got it. She's still got the comedic timing. You know. 0:53:05.120 --> 0:53:07.759 I do think there's a lack of focus where it's 0:53:07.800 --> 0:53:10.960 like she shouldn't be doing She did this off Broadway 0:53:11.000 --> 0:53:16.400 play that was like a woman aging four decades in 0:53:16.440 --> 0:53:18.799 real not in real time, I'd say in real time, 0:53:19.280 --> 0:53:21.600 not time, but yeah, it was like it was it 0:53:21.640 --> 0:53:24.040 was called Birthday Candles, and it was like every like 0:53:24.080 --> 0:53:26.320 fifteen minutes she had a new birthday or something. I 0:53:26.320 --> 0:53:30.160 I'm obviously it's not exactly that, but it's essentially that she. 0:53:30.120 --> 0:53:30.919 Did this other play. 0:53:31.080 --> 0:53:34.440 She shouldn't be be treating this other which people, if 0:53:34.440 --> 0:53:37.280 you haven't seen clips of you have to google Deborah 0:53:37.320 --> 0:53:39.560 Messing Irish accent. She did some play where she was 0:53:39.600 --> 0:53:42.960 meant to be Irish and she's acting like alongside an 0:53:42.960 --> 0:53:45.400 actual Irish person, and it's truly, I can't even do 0:53:45.520 --> 0:53:47.839 it justice, Like it is unlike anything I've ever heard 0:53:47.880 --> 0:53:49.960 of in my life. If you can find a clip 0:53:50.120 --> 0:53:52.200 and put it here, truly like it is a treat. 0:53:52.640 --> 0:53:55.600 Well, well, she is one of our most iconic redheads, 0:53:55.800 --> 0:53:59.759 and I what. I had a hair appointment yesterday and 0:54:00.200 --> 0:54:02.439 I got home afterwards I was watching Will and Grace 0:54:02.440 --> 0:54:05.320 and I realized my hair color is like Grace. 0:54:05.400 --> 0:54:07.800 Are you are giving Grace? I have to say. 0:54:08.440 --> 0:54:11.239 Yeah, but I'm also but also Megan Malali in her 0:54:11.280 --> 0:54:14.560 real life is is a redhead. So I'm gonna say 0:54:14.600 --> 0:54:18.680 I'm still I'm still a Karen. Yeah we should Karen. 0:54:18.520 --> 0:54:28.560 Should all be Karen's write the book. 0:54:33.280 --> 0:54:35.439 Decide into our DMS at Like a Virgin four twenty 0:54:35.480 --> 0:54:37.480 sixty nine and let us know, did you watch Will 0:54:37.520 --> 0:54:39.239 and Grace? Are you a Will? Are you a Grace? 0:54:39.320 --> 0:54:42.919 Are you a Jack? Are you a Karen? And we'll 0:54:42.920 --> 0:54:45.480 be back next week with a new episode. You can 0:54:45.520 --> 0:54:47.759 become a patron at Patreon dot com slash like a 0:54:47.840 --> 0:54:50.439 Virgin four weekly bonus episodes so you can also buy 0:54:50.440 --> 0:54:54.600 our march at Like a Virgin four sixty nine dot com. 0:54:55.040 --> 0:54:57.360 Follow us on Instagram at Like a Virgin four twenty 0:54:57.400 --> 0:55:00.239 sixty nine. You can follow me anywhere you want, do 0:55:00.440 --> 0:55:03.920 you and you can find Fran at France wishco. Like 0:55:03.960 --> 0:55:06.920 a Virgin is an iHeartRadio production. Our producer is Phoebee 0:55:07.000 --> 0:55:12.040 Unter with support from Lindsay Hoffmann and Nikkiktor until next week. 0:55:12.800 --> 0:55:16.480 Au Revoir, Just Jack. 0:55:19.640 --> 0:55:23.040 And now a clip from our Patreon. Become a patron 0:55:23.160 --> 0:55:26.240 at patreon dot com slash like a Virgin for weekly 0:55:26.280 --> 0:55:27.520 bonus episodes and more. 0:55:28.239 --> 0:55:28.479 Wow. 0:55:29.040 --> 0:55:33.279 Last week I read a gay pirate book, Erotic Yes, 0:55:34.000 --> 0:55:36.320 All Kidnapped by the Pirate. 0:55:36.600 --> 0:55:38.160 And your review. 0:55:40.440 --> 0:55:41.520 You're like, remember three and. 0:55:41.560 --> 0:55:46.040 A half stars, Yes, but I still enjoyed it. It's 0:55:46.040 --> 0:55:53.520 about So, it's about this young twink who is moving 0:55:53.640 --> 0:56:01.839 from England to a an island. His father has been like, 0:56:02.560 --> 0:56:04.400 is going to be the governor of you know, this 0:56:04.520 --> 0:56:07.279 is like early seventeen hundreds. It's like Pirates of the 0:56:07.280 --> 0:56:11.799 Caribbean vibes And on their voyage they get boarded by 0:56:11.840 --> 0:56:16.600 a pirate vessel and this this pirate kidnaps him because 0:56:16.960 --> 0:56:21.400 the boy's father cheated the pirate years before, because the 0:56:21.400 --> 0:56:24.440 pirate used to be a privateer and because of the 0:56:24.480 --> 0:56:27.040 boy's father, he was forced into a life of piracy. 0:56:27.680 --> 0:56:29.640 So the pirate kidnaps him and he's like, well, I'm 0:56:29.680 --> 0:56:32.719 gonna ransom you back to your father, and so he 0:56:32.840 --> 0:56:33.680 keeps him on him. 0:56:33.600 --> 0:56:34.760 He keeps him on his ship. 0:56:35.280 --> 0:56:37.600 He keeps him on his ship, like in his cabin. 0:56:38.000 --> 0:56:42.719 But unbeknownst to him, this boy, his whole life has 0:56:42.760 --> 0:56:49.680 been like I want God so badly, and the pirate 0:56:49.880 --> 0:56:52.120 is like being really mean to him, but the boy is. 0:56:52.040 --> 0:56:53.319 Like turned on by it. 0:56:54.120 --> 0:56:55.120 He's like, don't be mean to me. 0:56:55.160 --> 0:56:55.600 I'll come. 0:56:56.440 --> 0:56:56.600 No. 0:56:56.960 --> 0:57:00.400 Literally, like there's a scene where because he makes the 0:57:00.400 --> 0:57:03.399 boy stay in his cabin all day, and so one 0:57:03.480 --> 0:57:04.520 day the boy's like. 0:57:04.520 --> 0:57:07.600 He's like, yeah, lock my cock and the page daddy. No. 0:57:08.120 --> 0:57:09.719 One day, the boy's like, well, what am I gonna do? 0:57:09.800 --> 0:57:11.680 I guess I'm just gonna jerk off, and so he 0:57:11.840 --> 0:57:15.439 jerks off, and right after he comes, the pirate comes 0:57:15.480 --> 0:57:18.400 inside and the boy like hides his hand come behind 0:57:18.440 --> 0:57:21.040 his back, and the Pirate's like, what are you hiding? 0:57:21.120 --> 0:57:23.320 And he brings it out and his hands full of cum, 0:57:23.400 --> 0:57:25.960 and the pirate's like he he he, well. 0:57:25.800 --> 0:57:28.000 He acknowledges that it's common. He's like, I caught you 0:57:28.120 --> 0:57:28.560 jerking it. 0:57:28.640 --> 0:57:28.840 Yeah. 0:57:28.880 --> 0:57:30.040 Well the pirate's also gay. 0:57:30.760 --> 0:57:33.960 Pirate entities just tend to be gay, yeah, like they 0:57:34.000 --> 0:57:37.440 really it comes with the culture. 0:57:37.320 --> 0:57:40.920 Yes, And so they do eventually start fucking and sucking 0:57:41.360 --> 0:57:42.440 and they fall. 0:57:42.280 --> 0:57:43.760 In love fucking sucking too. 0:57:44.240 --> 0:57:44.520 Yeah. 0:57:44.560 --> 0:57:47.200 And the thing that I always think in these circumstances 0:57:47.280 --> 0:57:54.000 is their holes and other body parts would be so dirty, 0:57:54.120 --> 0:57:57.560 so smelly, so smelly, smelly, so covered, and shit so 0:57:57.680 --> 0:58:00.760 covered and shit, and I do you have to suspend 0:58:00.760 --> 0:58:04.560 disbelief a little bit. Yeah, that's why I. 0:58:03.760 --> 0:58:09.320 The captain bent over and I saw his cleanish wish. 0:58:09.520 --> 0:58:11.360 I mean, there is a plot point where like the 0:58:11.360 --> 0:58:13.440 boys like, please let me take a bath, and so 0:58:13.640 --> 0:58:15.560 like he does bathe before the first time they have 0:58:15.640 --> 0:58:18.880 SA so you know, he is like nice and but 0:58:19.000 --> 0:58:21.480 we all know that baths are not very sanitary. 0:58:22.000 --> 0:58:22.160 Yeah. 0:58:22.160 --> 0:58:23.440 And it's not even a real bath. It's like a 0:58:23.480 --> 0:58:27.640 bucket that he's cleaning himself with. It's why I do 0:58:27.920 --> 0:58:30.000 kind of like sometimes when I read like gay fantasy, 0:58:30.000 --> 0:58:31.880 because like with the monsters, it's like they don't eat, 0:58:31.920 --> 0:58:32.520 so they don't shit. 0:58:32.680 --> 0:58:35.280 Are you do you prefer shower before sex like in 0:58:35.360 --> 0:58:39.000 all cases or are you just does it kind of depend. 0:58:39.080 --> 0:58:40.080 I do prefer it. 0:58:40.200 --> 0:58:43.680 I had someone recently actually ask me not to shower 0:58:43.720 --> 0:58:44.440 before sex. 0:58:44.560 --> 0:58:48.160 Yeah, people ask and I like the musk. Yeah, if 0:58:48.200 --> 0:58:49.720 you want the musk, that's fine. It's just I don't 0:58:49.720 --> 0:58:50.439 really want the musk. 0:58:50.640 --> 0:58:51.560 I want the musk. 0:58:51.720 --> 0:58:54.800 Yeah, oh, I like the musk. I don't like a 0:58:54.880 --> 0:58:56.800 lot of musk. I only like a little musk. 0:58:56.960 --> 0:58:59.320 I like a I really like a musky pit. 0:59:00.720 --> 0:59:05.480 I couldn't handle that. I couldn't handle like dark bo. 0:59:05.680 --> 0:59:08.480 Not like dank dank, but like I don't want to. 0:59:08.920 --> 0:59:11.600 I like armpits and I like to lick an armpit, 0:59:11.720 --> 0:59:13.400 and I don't want to taste deodorant. 0:59:13.520 --> 0:59:13.720 Same. 0:59:13.800 --> 0:59:17.520 The ideal would be if you showered and then didn't 0:59:17.640 --> 0:59:20.400 like put anything on and then came. 0:59:20.200 --> 0:59:22.040 Over yeah, or you had just like you know, an 0:59:22.120 --> 0:59:23.280 essential oil or something. 0:59:23.440 --> 0:59:26.600 But there's like this guy who asked me not to shower. 0:59:26.640 --> 0:59:31.040 He was actually like, oh, you should go to the gym. 0:59:30.480 --> 0:59:34.880 Oh and get your sweat. Yeah, that's coreact. I mean, look, 0:59:34.920 --> 0:59:35.920 some girls be into that. 0:59:36.000 --> 0:59:37.960 Okay, I know, Okay,