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Speaker 1: We're actually going to add a laugh track into this episode,

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Speaker 1: perfect so that everyone knows when we're being funny.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 3: That's part of my rider whenever I do a podcast,

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Speaker 3: is that I need to come laughter.

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Speaker 2: She's sheen Ami, no ma, not my name? Yo? What

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Speaker 2: is your childhood? I am a chuck, yo?

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Speaker 4: What's going down?

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Speaker 3: Before one.

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Speaker 1: Round? Welcome to like a virgin. I'm rose dom you.

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Speaker 1: Fran is not here at the moment because she is

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Speaker 1: on fire Island for no know the millionth time this.

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Speaker 1: I was going to say this summer, but it's not

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Speaker 1: even summer anymore. It's literally fall. We took a few

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Speaker 1: weeks off, but we are back today with a brand

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Speaker 1: new episode and it's a good one. We've been holding

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Speaker 1: onto this for a while. Today we have an episode

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Speaker 1: with George Siveris, comedian and host of Stradio Lab, which

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Speaker 1: Frand and I were on a couple of months ago.

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Speaker 1: Definitely go listen to that. And we talked to George

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Speaker 1: all about Will and Grace. Yes, this is all about

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Speaker 1: musty TV. This is must listen podcasting. Will and Grace

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Speaker 1: is obviously, you know, very iconic and like formative gay media,

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Speaker 1: and we had a lot of fun talking about it.

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Speaker 1: So without further ado, here comes George to talk with

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Speaker 1: us all about Will and Grace and Jack and Karen.

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Speaker 1: I'm imagining that as one of those T shirts where

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Speaker 1: it's like, you know, the different characters listed like Harry

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Speaker 1: and Hermione and Ron. Oh, it all comes back to

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Speaker 1: Harry Potter, doesn't it. Do you want even more like

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Speaker 1: a virgin content? Well, you should become a patron at

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Speaker 1: patreon dot com slash like a virgin. We do weekly

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Speaker 1: bonus episodes talking about you know, the TV shows, we're watching,

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Speaker 1: the books, we're reading DBD commentaries, all that good stuff.

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Speaker 1: So become a patron now and get into the gig. Honey. Okay, George,

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Speaker 1: I want to know are you Are you a Will,

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Speaker 1: a Jack, a Grace or a Karen?

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Speaker 3: I mean the deepest, darkest Before I answered, let me

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Speaker 3: just say this because I sent you guys or yeah,

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Speaker 3: what if I was like I'm a Rosario Born, you know,

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Speaker 3: like through and through, I'm actually more of a Leslie

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Speaker 3: Jordan may hear rest in peace. Okay, I sent you

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Speaker 3: guys three topic and I was sort of looking at

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Speaker 3: them and I was like, this is the most like

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Speaker 3: white faggot, like could.

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Speaker 2: Not be it was true.

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Speaker 3: The three topics were literally a forgotten Madonna album, Will

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Speaker 3: and Grace, forgotten by the world maybe but by me,

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Speaker 3: and and the which I appreciate.

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Speaker 2: And the third one was Joan.

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Speaker 3: Rivers And I was like, this is because there is

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Speaker 3: a world in which I could have tried to be

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Speaker 3: like you know, I like you know, highbrow things too.

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Speaker 3: I could have been like b York, you know Apple,

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Speaker 3: But I was like, no, I want to look into

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Speaker 3: like the depths of my depravity, of like what are

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Speaker 3: the things that truly, if I'm being honest with myself,

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Speaker 3: like affected me, even if they're embarrassing now. And and sadly, no,

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Speaker 3: I appreciate that. That was very brave of you.

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Speaker 1: And when our producer texted us, I did hear the

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Speaker 1: sound of a giant fan with the words clash.

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Speaker 2: Whenever I sound on an email.

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Speaker 5: Yes, it was giving, like it was giving like the

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Speaker 5: gay it It was like, all are the most extreme

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Speaker 5: versions of like that of the culture. But like I

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Speaker 5: actually am curious because they I thought they were great topics.

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Speaker 5: I had no I cast no judgment on that trio.

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Speaker 5: But what is aside from being gay? What is the

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Speaker 5: through line of those three cultural objects, because they said,

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Speaker 5: I felt like I knew I learned so much about

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Speaker 5: you just by the volunteering of those things.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I mean there's a sort of like grotesque ye in,

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Speaker 3: sort of like the late nineties early aughts, white gay

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Speaker 3: male It's like when it was starting to peek into

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Speaker 3: the mainstream. And I feel like Will and Grace was

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Speaker 3: part of that. I feel like people like, I mean,

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Speaker 3: Joan Rivers has such a rich history without you know,

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Speaker 3: she's not just a gay ac on, She's many other

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Speaker 3: things and whatever. But like, in terms of my life,

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Speaker 3: it was like these female comedians like Joan Rivers and

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Speaker 3: Kathy Griffin and Margaret cho it was like people that

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Speaker 3: appealed to basically the the Jack McFarlands of the world.

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Speaker 2: Hmmm.

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Speaker 1: I was gonna say that when you presented us with

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Speaker 1: those three options, I was thinking of them as sort

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Speaker 1: of a maiden mother Crone archetype. But Madonna and Joan

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Speaker 1: Rivers are both the Krone, and they're also both the Mother. Okay,

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Speaker 1: but I still want to know who are you of it?

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Speaker 3: I mean again, I mean the really sort of human

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Speaker 3: If I'm being honest with myself. The humiliating thing of

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Speaker 3: it is that I am a will like I am

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Speaker 3: like a basic sort of as much as I would

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Speaker 3: like to pretend otherwise, a sort of like on the

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Speaker 3: way to assimilation, white gay guy who works a desk job.

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Speaker 2: You know what I mean?

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Speaker 3: Like it's I mean every I mean, yes, I sort of.

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Speaker 3: You could argue I'm a creative like Jack, but it's

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Speaker 3: with a sort of like I'm not like punk rock

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Speaker 3: doing cabaret shows like I am very much doing it.

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Speaker 2: By the book, was Jack punk?

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Speaker 4: Right?

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Speaker 2: I mean, listen to many he was Jack? Jack is

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Speaker 2: Jack is the vomit artist from is.

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Speaker 1: A performance artist. Jack is rave culture. Jack is a

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Speaker 1: yeah jacket. Jack is Byork Yeah yeah so, And and

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Speaker 1: just if I have the bravery to be a Jack

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Speaker 1: McFarland in the sense of being b York, I would,

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Speaker 1: But instead I am Katie Perry witness Era fran fran

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna ask you the same question, who of the

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Speaker 1: four are you? This is the sex and the citification

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Speaker 1: of pop culture.

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Speaker 4: I think I I think I'm Debra Messing. I think

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Speaker 4: I'm I think I'm.

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Speaker 6: Grace Oh my god, you so I think that?

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Speaker 5: But George you know, I see Will for you in

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Speaker 5: like a more positive way.

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Speaker 4: Like Will is the character.

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Speaker 5: That tends to have like the bird's eye view of

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Speaker 5: like what's going on totally, like the kind of the

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Speaker 5: one that's like, hey, can we all keep it together

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Speaker 5: for like one second, you know, but also like manages

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Speaker 5: to slide into hysteria very quick, yes, which is very

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Speaker 5: relatable and human relatable.

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Speaker 3: He's also I mean, he's a neurotic. He feels constantly slighted.

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Speaker 3: Again I'm describing both me myself and him, you know, neurotic,

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Speaker 3: constantly slighted, sort of like really loves uh, really embraces

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Speaker 3: being gay and loves being in gay spaces, but then

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Speaker 3: there's always something that sets him off and he's like,

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Speaker 3: I'm god, you know, like that's sort of me at

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Speaker 3: a gay bar.

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Speaker 1: But also like but he also like there's this thing

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Speaker 1: of like he doesn't he's not like a certain kind.

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Speaker 2: Right, well, that's the dream.

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Speaker 1: He's a very like corporate gay like Matt, like straight

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Speaker 1: passing gay in some ways interesting for any I Okay,

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Speaker 1: I know we've we've gotten pretty far into this convo,

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Speaker 1: but for the virgins listening, I do want to just

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Speaker 1: provide a little context. We are talking about Will and Grace,

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Speaker 1: the NBC sitcom which started in nineteen ninety eight, starring

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Speaker 1: Deborah Messing, Eric McCormick, Megan Malalley, and Sean Hayes. It's

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Speaker 1: about a duo of best friends. I think the series

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Speaker 1: starts because Grace breaks up with the boyfriend and has

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Speaker 1: to move in with her gay friend Will, who she

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Speaker 1: at one point was in love with Taylor as old

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Speaker 1: as time. She has an assistant who's wealthy and works

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Speaker 1: for her for some reason, Karen. And then Will's next

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Speaker 1: door neighbor is Jack, a very flamboyant gay man who

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Speaker 1: is very much the sort of like other gays that

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Speaker 1: Will is not like, and yet he absolutely is. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's what the show's about. It ran from It ran

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Speaker 1: for eight seasons in the original run, and then came

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Speaker 1: back for I think a two season revival. Okay, so George,

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Speaker 1: your Will, fran Is Grace.

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Speaker 6: And you are Rosario. Now I'm Karen.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean it's you're You're the character most capable

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Speaker 5: of murder.

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Speaker 4: Splash has murdered probably.

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Speaker 6: I'll never tell, just like Britney Murphy.

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Speaker 3: But I also sort of appreciate Abou Karen is that

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Speaker 3: there's a sort of mythology around her, as though she's

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Speaker 3: kind of an otherworldly like she could be one hundred

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Speaker 3: and fifty years old. She like will talk about her

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Speaker 3: past and like imply that she was, you know, in

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Speaker 3: the civil in like World War two or something like.

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Speaker 2: It's very.

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Speaker 3: I don't know, it's very it's almost I mean, it's

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Speaker 3: a it's sort of on par with maybe not a Phoebe,

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Speaker 3: but like definitely a Samantha from Sex and the City.

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Speaker 6: Totally.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, she is a figure who we are meant to

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Speaker 1: understand like is kind of primordial and like has existed

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Speaker 1: since Adonic time. She also, like I mean, the thing is,

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Speaker 1: as with many sitcoms, if you go back and watch

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Speaker 1: the first season of Will and Grace, it's like a

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Speaker 1: little bit different than The characterizations especially are a little

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Speaker 1: bit different than what they evolved into. Like Karen is

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Speaker 1: not quite as much of a pill pop in Boozehound

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Speaker 1: as she would come to be in later seasons.

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Speaker 6: I will never forget that.

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Speaker 1: I think they did two live episodes and there's one

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Speaker 1: in which Karen there's a visual gag where Karen opens

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Speaker 1: up her pill cabinet and it's just like a shoot

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Speaker 1: with pills, like like shooting out of it, and it's

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Speaker 1: so credible.

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Speaker 2: That episode also guest stars Matt Lower.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, well it is.

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Speaker 3: It's an NBC and in fact, I'm sorry to you know,

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Speaker 3: sort of go down this path. But a running gag

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Speaker 3: in that episode is that basically Karen is serving this

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Speaker 3: huge party that she throws every year that she has

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Speaker 3: never invited Will and Grace to because she's embarrassed with

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Speaker 3: them because it's all high profile people and celebrities, and

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Speaker 3: she accidentally, through I think a mistake of hers, invited

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Speaker 3: them this one year. So they're so excited to be

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Speaker 3: the well with celebrities, and the entirety of the live

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Speaker 3: episode takes place in the bathroom as they're each sort

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Speaker 3: of like going in and out of the room, and

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Speaker 3: Grace is doing this game where she's trying to touch

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Speaker 3: as many famous people's butts as possible, and so one

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Speaker 3: of the people she gets.

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Speaker 2: Not a part of part of the people she gets

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Speaker 2: is Matt Lower, ironically, and then like there's.

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Speaker 3: A gag where she like kind of does it, she

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Speaker 3: like gets his butt, and then he like looks at

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Speaker 3: her and he's like, you already got me.

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Speaker 4: That's kind of funny.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, a little bit of yeah, a little bit of

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Speaker 1: reverse foreshadowing. Well, you know, there's plenty of stuff that

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Speaker 1: was done and said over the course of Will and

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Speaker 1: Grace that would not fly now. I yesterday and preparation

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Speaker 1: for this and also for my own enjoyment, I watched

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Speaker 1: all of the Will and Grace Christmas episodes and there's

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Speaker 1: one in which, through hanging out with Grace, Will's mom

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Speaker 1: played by the incredible Blive Dianner, who gave us not

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Speaker 1: only this character but also Gena Paltrow, it learns the

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Speaker 1: word fagola, which is.

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Speaker 6: Not something she should say. I wonder.

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Speaker 1: Fagela is a Yiddish word for gay person or it's

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Speaker 1: like saying fag in it is it is? Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: wonder did they ever say fag on Will and Grace?

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Speaker 3: You know, I think, I mean, maybe I'm wrong, but

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Speaker 3: I feel like they may have.

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Speaker 4: It's entirely possible they can say it.

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Speaker 6: They can say it.

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Speaker 4: I don't think they've said it.

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Speaker 2: I mean maybe the revival.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a sort of like something that's gonna google,

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Speaker 3: something that's sort of fascinating about Will and Grace and

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Speaker 3: about a lot of like gay pop culture at the time,

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Speaker 3: is like because of a combination of the fact that

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Speaker 3: it's written by largely straight people, or by by many

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Speaker 3: straight people, not exclusively, but it's written by many straight people,

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Speaker 3: and also that people didn't have anything to compare it

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Speaker 3: to because there wasn't that much mainstream gay media. The

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Speaker 3: like rules of what's inappropriate and what's not inappropriate just

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Speaker 3: like had not been set in stone yet. So some

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Speaker 3: of it ends up being almost accidentally extremely subversive, just

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Speaker 3: like some of it ends up being incredibly offensive and

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Speaker 3: like transphobic and racist and whatever else. But some of

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Speaker 3: it because they were just like going blind, Like now

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Speaker 3: you're like, oh, this is in fact more subversive than

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Speaker 3: like the queer meat, like than Bros.

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Speaker 2: You know what I mean.

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Speaker 1: Like, I think we could definitively say Will and Grace

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Speaker 1: is more subversive than Bros.

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Speaker 6: In almost every way.

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Speaker 1: Although I mean, I hate to get to go this

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Speaker 1: deep this early into this conversation, but was was aids

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Speaker 1: ever mentioned in the entirety of Will and Grace?

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Speaker 3: I know that's I don't think it was a running theme,

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Speaker 3: but it wasn't a bit, not a bit. I mean,

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Speaker 3: if they were really brave. They would just play it

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Speaker 3: for laughs, of course, But yeah, but I do think

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Speaker 3: there was sort of well, you know what, actually I

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Speaker 3: remember this one episode and actually this is sort of

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Speaker 3: like kind of a a window into the darkness of

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Speaker 3: the soul of Will and Grace. Is like there was

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Speaker 3: an episode where Jack and Will meet this gay elder

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Speaker 3: and he's like this guy who's maybe in his sixties

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Speaker 3: or seventies, and he wants to save this gay independent

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Speaker 3: bookstore and because they're turning it into like a luxury gym,

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Speaker 3: and so Jack and Will are very moved by it

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Speaker 3: and they help him raise money. But the sort of

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Speaker 3: gag at the end is that actually Jack and Will

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Speaker 3: want it to be turned into a luxury gym because

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Speaker 3: that's like more what they want than in but it's.

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Speaker 2: Sort of like they want to cru but it's sort

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Speaker 2: of like.

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Speaker 3: There's something almost more honest about like if it's like

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Speaker 3: if that were to happen now on like some sort

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Speaker 3: of Netflix show that my mom watches, they would all

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Speaker 3: come together and save the bookstore, you know what I mean,

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Speaker 3: or like the luxury gym owner would be this huge villain.

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Speaker 2: And it was sort of.

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Speaker 3: Crazy that like they really did. They were honest about

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Speaker 3: the fact that Will and Jack, as urban white gay

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Speaker 3: man wanted the luxury gym more than they wanted to

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Speaker 3: support like their queer elder. Like, so that's what I'm

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Speaker 3: mean in progress, Yeah, exactly, Like that's what it's almost like,

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Speaker 3: it's almost like very honest about things like that.

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Speaker 2: Accidentally, Like I don't know, I think it is.

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Speaker 5: I think it is like you're being facetious about it

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Speaker 5: being progressed. But I actually do think that that is

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Speaker 5: like what's missing from a lot of the things that

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Speaker 5: are now correctively trying to commentate on what's going on

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Speaker 5: right now. And I think the thing that like must

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Speaker 5: be said about Will and Grace and like the climate

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Speaker 5: that it came out in, it has a lot to

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Speaker 5: do with the fact that they weren't trying to solve

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Speaker 5: for anything, right like with the Bros comparison, Bros And

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Speaker 5: we love all the people involved, but like Bros existed

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Speaker 5: to solve a problem, you know, like it's it's solved.

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Speaker 5: It was trying to solve a problem about the inclusion

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Speaker 5: of queer character and brom coms and Will and Grace

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Speaker 5: arrived on the scene being like we don't want to

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Speaker 5: say anything.

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Speaker 4: And in you know, nineteen ninety eight, like.

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Speaker 5: By this time, it's like they've gone through the AIDS crisis.

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Speaker 5: Freddie Mercury Ellen on Time saying Yep, I'm gay. Bill

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Speaker 5: Clinton was the first president to like acknowledge gay people

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Speaker 5: as like a voter base in general. Right, Like, there's

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Speaker 5: so many kind of like landmarks that had been achieved

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Speaker 5: to lay the path for it, so that by the

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Speaker 5: time it arrived, which like it was essentially an overnight success.

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Speaker 5: It was like by its first season it was like

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Speaker 5: prime time highest rated show.

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Speaker 2: It was musty TV.

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Speaker 6: Honey.

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Speaker 5: Yes, it was all of a sudden given permission to

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Speaker 5: be as quote unquote problematic as it wants to.

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Speaker 4: With that luxury gym thing.

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Speaker 5: I think the luxury gym thing like kind of perfectly

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Speaker 5: encapsulates what made Will and Grace really ahead of its time,

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Speaker 5: which was that it was agnostic of a lot of

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Speaker 5: the baggage that had come before it, which is like

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Speaker 5: most people, most gay people that appeared on TV screens

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Speaker 5: dieedab ads, right, And here is like an audience of

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Speaker 5: people that are kind of sick of the whole AIDS thing, unfortunately,

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Speaker 5: and so of course, it makes sense that the entire

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Speaker 5: first run of Will and Grace would not mention AIDS

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Speaker 5: once during the entire Yeah, they.

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Speaker 6: Just wanted to be the fabulous, Like that's what it

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Speaker 6: was all.

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Speaker 3: And guess what mission accomplished, Sweetie. To your point Fran

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Speaker 3: about it, I think you're so like dead on that

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Speaker 3: it is. It could only have existed in late Clinton

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Speaker 3: era because it is sort of like there's a sort of.

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Speaker 2: Post AIDS.

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Speaker 3: And I'm saying that in quotes. I understand that we're

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Speaker 3: not actually in a post AIDS era, but for the

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Speaker 3: average viewer, like a sort of post AIDS gay life

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Speaker 3: almost gave them permission to be less serious about that

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Speaker 3: stuff in the same way that we that like earlier

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Speaker 3: Bamba era pop culture was like trying to be post

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Speaker 3: race almost. It was sort of like, well, we've like

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Speaker 3: exactly acknowledged gay people, and now we can have a

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Speaker 3: sitcom about it, just like you know, we have a

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Speaker 3: black president, now we can have you know, the show

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Speaker 3: Happy Endings.

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Speaker 4: Yeah kind of yeah.

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Speaker 5: And it's it's kind of like to say like something

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Speaker 5: is like ahead of its time is usually like code

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Speaker 5: for like it's really dated now, but like it was,

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Speaker 5: it was. It was ahead of its time, and like

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Speaker 5: I remember, like last decade when Biden was like, Will

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Speaker 5: and Grace probably did more to educate the American public

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Speaker 5: on the LGBTQ community than anything else. He's not one

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Speaker 5: hundred percent wrong.

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Speaker 2: Well right, yeah, you know, she's.

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Speaker 5: Because it was so massive, And I think that a lot,

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Speaker 5: because the show itself was not burdened by the weight

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Speaker 5: of quote unquote educating people. That's probably why everyone hates

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Speaker 5: the show, because.

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Speaker 6: It was about normalized.

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Speaker 4: It didn't stand for everything.

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Speaker 5: But I think that and I don't really know necessarily

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Speaker 5: how the creators felt about like aids or like gay activists,

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Speaker 5: but like I could imagine that by the mid late nineties,

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Speaker 5: everyone is all gay people are sick of Larry Kramer,

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Speaker 5: sick of act up, sick of like being you know,

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Speaker 5: it's it's just it's a empathy fatigue, right, It's like

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Speaker 5: what we felt like in the Trump era, where it's

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Speaker 5: just like, I'm actually, I don't want to listen to

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Speaker 5: this anymore. I need something that's just stupid and sexy

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Speaker 5: and fun.

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Speaker 1: And that's kind of okay, But I want to ask

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Speaker 1: an important question, is Will and Grace for gay people

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Speaker 1: or is it for stray people?

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Speaker 6: And I think we I think we know the answer.

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Speaker 3: I mean, it's funny because I do think at the

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Speaker 3: time it was for straight people, and I almost think

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Speaker 3: that maybe like it's long tail, like maybe it was.

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Speaker 3: I feel like now it's for gay people. Like I

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Speaker 3: feel like now nostalgically looking back on it, I'm like,

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Speaker 3: this is fun in a sort of it's almost like

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Speaker 3: watching a drag show or so, I mean, Karen is

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Speaker 3: like a drag character, like you know, it's it's sort

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Speaker 3: of like, yeah, I don't know, you can view it

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Speaker 3: through a different lens and have it be fun for

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Speaker 3: a gay audience. But I do think at the time

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Speaker 3: it was certainly sold as like, look how normal this is?

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Speaker 3: Look kind normal this is? Don't like, oh way, look

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Speaker 3: how normal this is?

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Speaker 1: You know, and yeah, and I'm sure like growing up

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Speaker 1: as as you know, like little queer kids, there's like

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Speaker 1: at first an element of like I don't want to

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Speaker 1: like this thing because I don't want people to think

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Speaker 1: I'm gay, And then it's like I don't want to

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Speaker 1: like this thing because it's like it's lame. It's like,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's like normalizing queerness. It's first three people,

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Speaker 1: and now I think you're totally right that it's like

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Speaker 1: looking back on it and you're like, wait, this actually

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Speaker 1: like is absolutely for me and my sensibility, and like

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Speaker 1: is for queer people like more than anyone else, because

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Speaker 1: we are the ones who like get the references and

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Speaker 1: get the humor and like it is exactly our taste

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Speaker 1: and our point of view.

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Speaker 3: It's also like, I mean, there's a way in which

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Speaker 3: if they wanted to really sort of do this like

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00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:05,919
Speaker 3: respectability politics, normalizing gay people whatever, they they could have

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Speaker 3: made the characters like way.

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Speaker 2: More respectable than they are.

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Speaker 3: I mean Jack is still like a sereny, screechy like

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Speaker 3: sort of you know, in quote gay stereotype. And then

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Speaker 3: even Will, who's meant to be like the more respectable one,

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00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:24,800
Speaker 3: is very like sort of like neurotic in this quintessentially

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Speaker 3: gay way. Like he certainly is someone who actual gay

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Speaker 3: people can see themselves in. So I think, like it

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Speaker 3: almost like it's slightly better than it needs to be,

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Speaker 3: and I think maybe that's why it has at least

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Speaker 3: a little bit of lasting power.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I mean it has, like, of course it

414
00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:49,400
Speaker 1: has aged poorly in some cases, but it's still funny. Yeah,

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00:21:49,560 --> 00:21:52,520
Speaker 1: you know, like going back and rewatching it, the jokes

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00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:56,040
Speaker 1: still hit. It's very well written, you know, it's like

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Speaker 1: a very well crafted sitcom. I also like the but

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Speaker 1: you know, I don't see Will and Jacka's being sexless,

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Speaker 1: Like obviously it's not like we ever got you know.

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Speaker 1: It's like, because this was airing at the same time

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Speaker 1: as Queer as Folk, like that is a huge counterpoint.

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Speaker 6: It's not like we ever got like rimming on Will

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Speaker 6: and Grace.

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Speaker 1: But like Will and Jack they looked like they they

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Speaker 1: were always dating, they always had boyfriends.

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Speaker 3: And like maybe the word rimming was not said, but

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Speaker 3: it was implied, like there were like dirty jokes.

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Speaker 2: Sure, sure.

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Speaker 5: I always think it's interesting that when when we get

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Speaker 5: that critique, when people are always like, oh, they were

431
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Speaker 5: so sexless, the gay characters didn't get to have sex.

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Speaker 5: And I was like, wait, but like every other joke

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Speaker 5: is about a boy, Like yeah, I was like, what

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Speaker 5: is that?

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Speaker 3: And also I'm now, this is what I was gonna

436
00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:44,200
Speaker 3: say before that I forgot. There's a part I remember specifically,

437
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Speaker 3: there's a sort of meta joke at some point where

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Speaker 3: Will says something kind of avertly sexual and then Grace

439
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Speaker 3: is like, don't say that, Will America doesn't like to

440
00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:53,320
Speaker 3: see you as sexual, like, and it's just sort of

441
00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:57,280
Speaker 3: joke on the And I those are the little pockets

442
00:22:57,320 --> 00:23:00,240
Speaker 3: of not to say that that's so subversive, but like,

443
00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:02,040
Speaker 3: those are the little pockets of knowing this that I

444
00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:05,320
Speaker 3: think honestly make it a way more interesting show than

445
00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:06,480
Speaker 3: like a Friends.

446
00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:07,680
Speaker 2: Or something that was on at the same time.

447
00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:12,520
Speaker 5: The show Friends, Friends did not know and I think

448
00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:15,920
Speaker 5: that they understood at the strategic level, like what they

449
00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:20,240
Speaker 5: could and couldn't do with gay identity in public exactly

450
00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:22,560
Speaker 5: in public opinion. And I think that you know, when

451
00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:24,400
Speaker 5: you ask the question is that is this for gay

452
00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:27,920
Speaker 5: or straight people? It would not have been successful if

453
00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:31,240
Speaker 5: it was for gay people, right, Like straight people writ

454
00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:35,439
Speaker 5: large had to give this show its massive popularity in

455
00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:37,760
Speaker 5: order for it to be platformed and successful, right, And

456
00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:41,240
Speaker 5: so like the fact that it was massive and then

457
00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:44,560
Speaker 5: had all of these select you mean Matt Lauer aside,

458
00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:47,200
Speaker 5: like all these celebrities guess starring like Madonna and Matt Damon,

459
00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:52,480
Speaker 5: Jenna Jackson, yeah, Share Jay l Brittany, like all the people.

460
00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:55,919
Speaker 5: And it's like that creates legitimacy, right, and like the

461
00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:59,240
Speaker 5: legitimacy and like the kind of acceptance into mainstream culture

462
00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:02,880
Speaker 5: that the show I guess laid out. It's like what

463
00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:05,840
Speaker 5: gave kids who would watch it at during during its

464
00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:09,760
Speaker 5: run permission to be themselves. You're like, Oh, if they're accepted,

465
00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:12,600
Speaker 5: then maybe i'll be accepted too. Write it's like funny

466
00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:16,080
Speaker 5: because like assimilation is like the number one critique of

467
00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:18,520
Speaker 5: the show, and yet like assimilation is kind of why

468
00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:19,400
Speaker 5: the show.

469
00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:22,800
Speaker 4: Was as impactful as it was totally.

470
00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:25,159
Speaker 3: And again, I don't know why I keep bringing up

471
00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:28,639
Speaker 3: Happy Endings, but I was thinking because I was, I

472
00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:31,280
Speaker 3: don't know, it was in the news or for some

473
00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:34,520
Speaker 3: reason recently. And if you take a show like Happy Endings,

474
00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:36,560
Speaker 3: which has have you every seen Happy Endings ever?

475
00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:37,239
Speaker 2: No?

476
00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:38,000
Speaker 4: What is that about it?

477
00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:41,160
Speaker 2: So it's a show that was it's very Obama era.

478
00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:44,720
Speaker 3: It's like probably I want to say, like twenty ten

479
00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:49,560
Speaker 3: or something, and it's like Casey Wilson's in it. It's

480
00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:52,240
Speaker 3: like a good fun cast, but there's a gay character.

481
00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:54,720
Speaker 3: And the entire sort of running joke about the gay

482
00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:58,320
Speaker 3: character is that he's kind of like the biggest slob

483
00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:01,040
Speaker 3: of all of it, but like he's like very for

484
00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:03,960
Speaker 3: lack of a better term, straight acting. He's like kind

485
00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:06,920
Speaker 3: of a slacker and perpetually unemployed and doesn't dress well

486
00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:10,080
Speaker 3: and is a slob and whatever, and he is part

487
00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:12,240
Speaker 3: of this friend group that is all straight people except him,

488
00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:14,320
Speaker 3: and it's like we're so post gay that they can

489
00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:15,879
Speaker 3: all joke about it and blah blah. And I almost

490
00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:19,480
Speaker 3: feel like something like that is way more pro assimilation

491
00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:22,639
Speaker 3: or conservative than Will and Grace. I mean, Will and

492
00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:25,760
Speaker 3: Grace is essentially portraying like this sort of like many

493
00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:31,640
Speaker 3: chosen family that's like two really oh like absolutely gay

494
00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:34,639
Speaker 3: guys and two women that are like unmarried or I mean,

495
00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:36,640
Speaker 3: I guess Karen is married, but like two women whose

496
00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:37,560
Speaker 3: husbands you don't see.

497
00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:40,639
Speaker 1: Yeah at various at various times, she isn't isn't married,

498
00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:43,600
Speaker 1: and Grace isn't isn't married. But yeah, I was watching

499
00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:46,399
Speaker 1: that episode with the one of the Christmas episodes with

500
00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:50,480
Speaker 1: Blithe Danner and the four of them go to Will's

501
00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:53,919
Speaker 1: mom's house for Christmas like they are a family and

502
00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:58,680
Speaker 1: not only got more and more explicit as the show

503
00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:03,000
Speaker 1: went on, And I think maybe more than anything, that's

504
00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:06,280
Speaker 1: what Will and Grace like kind of presented to the

505
00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:09,480
Speaker 1: world was like one of the first real examples of

506
00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:13,879
Speaker 1: what like a queer Chosen Family could look like, because

507
00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:16,360
Speaker 1: I honestly think looking at something like happy endings, which

508
00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:19,760
Speaker 1: honestly I haven't I haven't watched enough of the show

509
00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:22,240
Speaker 1: to maybe like make this generalization, but I kind of

510
00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:23,920
Speaker 1: think that feels more dated than.

511
00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:27,919
Speaker 3: No, it's one hundred percent, I think, Like, honestly, I

512
00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:31,480
Speaker 3: think sometimes Wow, not to make the biggest generalation of all,

513
00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:34,000
Speaker 3: but I do think sometimes Obama era stuff seems more

514
00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:35,960
Speaker 3: dated than Clinton era stuff in a weird way.

515
00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:38,960
Speaker 2: Like no, yeah, no, I feel that the sort.

516
00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:44,320
Speaker 3: Of kumbaya like everyone's the same spirit of both of

517
00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:47,320
Speaker 3: those eras, it feels way more forced during the Obama era.

518
00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:49,400
Speaker 3: It's sort of like we're like not allowed to look

519
00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:52,840
Speaker 3: at anything ugly ever, whereas at least in the nineties

520
00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:56,800
Speaker 3: you were like not everything was like algorithmically calculated to

521
00:26:56,840 --> 00:26:58,960
Speaker 3: like appeal to a demographic.

522
00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:01,160
Speaker 2: Or whatever anyway. So but yeah, I totally agree.

523
00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:02,959
Speaker 3: I also, I mean in terms of the Chosen Family

524
00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:05,359
Speaker 3: of it all, Like I remember when Will and Grace

525
00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:07,280
Speaker 3: tried to have a baby together. That was like one

526
00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:09,200
Speaker 3: of the only times the show I ever sort of got

527
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:13,280
Speaker 3: serious because what happened was Grace then met Leo played

528
00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:18,359
Speaker 3: by Harry Connick Junior, and so who is it really

529
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:21,640
Speaker 3: is the best that I ever looked as is Woody Harrelson,

530
00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:22,960
Speaker 3: also playing Grace's boyfriend.

531
00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:26,280
Speaker 2: By the way, his breakout role, Grace had some really.

532
00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:28,359
Speaker 3: Good I mean, I want to like go back to

533
00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:30,960
Speaker 3: the guest stars because that's actually one of the most

534
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:35,040
Speaker 3: fascinating parts of Will and Grace. But so Grace sort

535
00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:37,520
Speaker 3: of was planning on having a baby with her gay

536
00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:41,920
Speaker 3: best friend, but then met a a Jewish doctor, which

537
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:43,679
Speaker 3: is her dream, and then she was like, wait, but

538
00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:45,520
Speaker 3: I have to see where this goes. I can't have

539
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:47,760
Speaker 3: a baby with my gay best friend yet. And they

540
00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:50,800
Speaker 3: get into this real fight about it, and it's kind

541
00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:53,639
Speaker 3: of I mean, it's kind of something you would never

542
00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:55,160
Speaker 3: see on TV. And I don't even know if you've

543
00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:58,479
Speaker 3: seen it since, Like it's such a specific experience of

544
00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:03,000
Speaker 3: like that generation of you know, assimilating gay men who

545
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:07,440
Speaker 3: still didn't have you know, domestic partnerships and gay marriage

546
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:10,680
Speaker 3: and whatever could adopt or whatever. So I do think

547
00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:14,520
Speaker 3: in those ways, it was in its own way ahead

548
00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:19,240
Speaker 3: of its time. Again through this very narrow about this

549
00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:20,159
Speaker 3: very narrow.

550
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:20,760
Speaker 2: Slipper of the game.

551
00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:44,640
Speaker 6: Okay.

552
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:49,360
Speaker 1: Something that has always bugs me and like does seem

553
00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:53,600
Speaker 1: slightly unrealistic is the fact that Jack and Will never know.

554
00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:57,600
Speaker 3: There is a say gag midway through where they're like

555
00:28:57,640 --> 00:28:59,840
Speaker 3: they wake up they're in like a cruise ship or

556
00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:02,480
Speaker 3: some thing, or they're in Karen's yeah, I remember, and

557
00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:04,840
Speaker 3: they wake up naked next to each other. I think

558
00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:07,720
Speaker 3: it's revealed that they ultimately that had not had sex,

559
00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:10,360
Speaker 3: but it's like it's sort of a running gag, and

560
00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:13,360
Speaker 3: I think you're so right in that, like the final

561
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:15,680
Speaker 3: step it doesn't take is the fact that if they

562
00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:18,600
Speaker 3: were actually gay friends, they would have fucked and it

563
00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:19,360
Speaker 3: would have been okay.

564
00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:21,479
Speaker 2: And I feel like that's the version of it.

565
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:23,440
Speaker 1: It wouldn't have had to be a whole thing that

566
00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:25,720
Speaker 1: they would have just had or or it would have

567
00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:28,560
Speaker 1: happened long before the show started. They would have had

568
00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:31,640
Speaker 1: sex once. And you know, there is a very iconic

569
00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:36,400
Speaker 1: Thanksgiving two parter flashback episode about when Will came out

570
00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:41,040
Speaker 1: to Grace and Jack is sort of Will's like entree

571
00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:43,239
Speaker 1: into gay life and like his mentor a little bit,

572
00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:46,280
Speaker 1: and Jack clearly has a crush on him, and I

573
00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:49,360
Speaker 1: do think that running joke is maybe brought back a

574
00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:51,560
Speaker 1: couple times. It's like probably part of the reason why

575
00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:54,600
Speaker 1: Jack is constantly nagging Will is like he probably does

576
00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:56,000
Speaker 1: have a bit of a thing for him. But yeah,

577
00:29:56,040 --> 00:30:00,040
Speaker 1: like realistically they would have one time, like at some

578
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:04,520
Speaker 1: fucking gay club, hooked up and then been like, oh, yeah, whatever,

579
00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:06,360
Speaker 1: let's just put friends.

580
00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:08,240
Speaker 3: And not just Jack. Like you don't see that dynamic

581
00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:10,880
Speaker 3: at all throughout the show. They don't have other like

582
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:12,760
Speaker 3: because they do have a group of gay friends, but

583
00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:15,200
Speaker 3: there's never any sexual history among any of them.

584
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:18,240
Speaker 2: It's like this couple that has adopted a child.

585
00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:22,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, and they would all be fucking fucking together. Yeah,

586
00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:25,959
Speaker 1: they would be having group sex while Grace was on,

587
00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:27,960
Speaker 1: you know, with Leo.

588
00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:32,520
Speaker 5: Because because they're like so white and so upper class,

589
00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:35,200
Speaker 5: like there is a kind of like like odorless gass

590
00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:38,080
Speaker 5: of like conservatism that's like in some of them. And

591
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:41,680
Speaker 5: I kind of wonder if like whoever was writing however

592
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:44,200
Speaker 5: they were writing the show, is like maybe like rich

593
00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:47,240
Speaker 5: gays don't hook up with their friends like they maybe

594
00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:49,440
Speaker 5: there's sluts, but it's like there's some like kind of

595
00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:53,960
Speaker 5: emotional conservative like guardrail around sex meaning something or something

596
00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:54,360
Speaker 5: I don't know.

597
00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:55,560
Speaker 2: Well, it's also the aids.

598
00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:57,920
Speaker 3: I mean, it's also again like the late nineties post

599
00:30:57,920 --> 00:30:59,880
Speaker 3: AIGs thing where it's like, well, if we're not a

600
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:02,320
Speaker 3: dressing that, then we're certainly not having them all, like

601
00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:05,880
Speaker 3: going around having sex with one another, Like.

602
00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:10,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, well I think also it's probably that because

603
00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:12,840
Speaker 1: there were so many straight people having their hands on

604
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:16,680
Speaker 1: the show, Like straight people truly cannot conceptualize of a

605
00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:19,960
Speaker 1: world in which you have casual sex with your friends

606
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:20,400
Speaker 1: and then.

607
00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:24,000
Speaker 3: Stay ye and like it's they just and also as

608
00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:27,120
Speaker 3: accepting as they were and as accepting as straight people

609
00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:30,560
Speaker 3: can be in their hearts, they still think what every

610
00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:33,680
Speaker 3: gay person wants is to settle down and have children

611
00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:37,760
Speaker 3: in a monogamous relationship. Like it's more of a recent

612
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:41,960
Speaker 3: thing to be like accepting of other romantic lifestyles.

613
00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:46,640
Speaker 1: I feel, yeah, like polyamory, which, according according to TikTok,

614
00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:54,040
Speaker 1: polyamorous people are like the most you know, maligned and marginalized.

615
00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:54,920
Speaker 2: People, and we are marching at dawn.

616
00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:59,040
Speaker 1: I'm not marching for for polyamorous people.

617
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:02,760
Speaker 5: Okay, So speaking of like Will and Jack, I do

618
00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:06,040
Speaker 5: remember in the last season there is this moment that

619
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:09,040
Speaker 5: happens that centers around the idea of a gay kiss

620
00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:11,880
Speaker 5: on TV, and I do like how Will and Grace

621
00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:14,440
Speaker 5: is continuously like meta, like you can tell like what

622
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:16,560
Speaker 5: they're aware of, what they can get away with or whatever.

623
00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:21,120
Speaker 5: And in the actual episode, Will and Jack are anticipating

624
00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:23,080
Speaker 5: what is supposed to be. Isn't it supposed to be

625
00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:26,080
Speaker 5: like the first gay kiss on h on network television

626
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:30,280
Speaker 5: or something on an episode of NCIS And then they

627
00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:32,920
Speaker 5: try to watch it and it doesn't happen, like it's

628
00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:35,800
Speaker 5: cut for cut from you know, network TV or whatever.

629
00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:39,920
Speaker 5: And I'm pretty sure that it mirrors an actual thing

630
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:42,080
Speaker 5: that happened in like gay TV history, where in there

631
00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:43,320
Speaker 5: was supposed to be a gay kiss and then it

632
00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:45,680
Speaker 5: was cut. And so as a part of their last season,

633
00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:50,240
Speaker 5: they stage up protests wherein they kiss on Good Morning

634
00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:53,160
Speaker 5: America in front of Al Roker and Will and Jack

635
00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:58,479
Speaker 5: kiss on Morning TV basically the live Morning TV and

636
00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:02,520
Speaker 5: then they become the first gay kiss on TV, which

637
00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:04,800
Speaker 5: is like kind of genius. It's like really genius and

638
00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:07,040
Speaker 5: fun and also talks about like the first like the

639
00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:09,520
Speaker 5: first gay stuff is like that's like a that's a

640
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:12,320
Speaker 5: joke that will like remain relevant, like jokes that are

641
00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:15,360
Speaker 5: jokes are still on SNL about that, you know what

642
00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:15,760
Speaker 5: I mean?

643
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:19,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean even in terms of the sort of

644
00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:22,920
Speaker 3: meta the meta element of it, even when when Britney

645
00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:26,720
Speaker 3: Spears guest stars famously she plays a conservative talk show

646
00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:31,320
Speaker 3: host that the new conservative network that has bought out TV,

647
00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:34,120
Speaker 3: which is the network that Jack works at, has placed

648
00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:36,480
Speaker 3: there to make the show more conservative. And I feel

649
00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:39,120
Speaker 3: like that's also a sort of commentary on like what

650
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:42,480
Speaker 3: you can get away with what the quote unquote the suits, like,

651
00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:47,040
Speaker 3: you know, want, versus what the people want people making

652
00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:52,320
Speaker 3: a show want. Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's very it's

653
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:55,120
Speaker 3: very sort of aware of the of the culture surrounding it.

654
00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:00,000
Speaker 5: I want to rewind really quick, because we didn't get

655
00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:03,120
Speaker 5: a chance to talk about, like I guess where we

656
00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:05,920
Speaker 5: were in time when we first watched Will and Grace.

657
00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:08,919
Speaker 5: I have already sat on the pot that right around

658
00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:11,279
Speaker 5: the time, I still wasn't allowed to watch like mainstream things,

659
00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:13,239
Speaker 5: but I like was saving my own money to buy

660
00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:16,160
Speaker 5: my own shit. I did buy this season six box

661
00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:18,279
Speaker 5: set of Will and Grace and hid it under my bed,

662
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:20,560
Speaker 5: and my mom ended up like confiscating it and throwing

663
00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:23,759
Speaker 5: it away, so that to me is like but I

664
00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:26,520
Speaker 5: remember loving it and being like what the fuck is this? Like,

665
00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:29,360
Speaker 5: how is this allowed to be in the culture?

666
00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:33,319
Speaker 4: Whatever? What are y'all's memories, I guess are attachment to it.

667
00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:37,840
Speaker 3: I distinctly remember the first the first time I was

668
00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:40,719
Speaker 3: like channel surfing and caught it on TV, and I

669
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:42,640
Speaker 3: wish I remember the context of this scene, but it's

670
00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:45,520
Speaker 3: like a scene where I think Will is coming back

671
00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:48,879
Speaker 3: from Paris, I want to say, and he had sent

672
00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:51,839
Speaker 3: back a T shirt that has like the Eiffel Tower

673
00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:57,319
Speaker 3: on it that was meant for Jack's son that he

674
00:34:57,360 --> 00:34:59,640
Speaker 3: has with like the lesbian couple with Rosio done all over,

675
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:02,400
Speaker 3: but Jack had misunderstood and thought the T shirt was

676
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:03,839
Speaker 3: for him. So the big reveal is that he takes

677
00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:05,640
Speaker 3: off his Bathrob when he's wearing like a belly shirt

678
00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:07,360
Speaker 3: that has the Eiffel Tower on it, which is clearly

679
00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:09,480
Speaker 3: like a kid's shirt, and he's like, this wasn't for me,

680
00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:12,040
Speaker 3: and it's like, of course he's so gay that he

681
00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:14,440
Speaker 3: thought like a children's shirt was for him or whatever.

682
00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:18,960
Speaker 3: And I just remember being like almost I in no

683
00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:20,839
Speaker 3: way was aware that I might be gay. At the time,

684
00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:25,960
Speaker 3: I was, you know, probably like eleven or twelve or something,

685
00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:28,799
Speaker 3: and I remember being so sort of like humiliated by

686
00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:30,759
Speaker 3: the sight of that and being like, oh, God, like

687
00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:33,120
Speaker 3: men shouldn't do that, Like this is so like why

688
00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:36,759
Speaker 3: is he being so feminine? Well, they shouldn't is Let's

689
00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:38,560
Speaker 3: be real, And that's kind of the moral of the

690
00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:39,359
Speaker 3: show at the end.

691
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:43,439
Speaker 2: So I have that memory of it.

692
00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:45,640
Speaker 3: But then at the same time, it was very sort

693
00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:47,840
Speaker 3: of like intrigued and titillated by it and found it

694
00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:48,799
Speaker 3: very funny, and I.

695
00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:49,799
Speaker 2: Like wanted to watch more of it.

696
00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:53,799
Speaker 3: And the other thing is so at the time we

697
00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:56,719
Speaker 3: were living in so my parents immigrated from Greece, and

698
00:35:56,760 --> 00:35:58,000
Speaker 3: then we lived in New Jersey, and then when I

699
00:35:58,080 --> 00:35:59,560
Speaker 3: was thirteen, we moved back to Greece. So I have

700
00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:01,200
Speaker 3: sort of these two parts of my life where I

701
00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:04,200
Speaker 3: was like in America and then outside. And so this

702
00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:06,440
Speaker 3: was still in New Jersey and we went to a

703
00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:09,080
Speaker 3: Greek church that was in no way conservative. It was like,

704
00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:12,279
Speaker 3: you know, in like a blue state. It was not

705
00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:16,080
Speaker 3: like Catholic whatever. But for whatever reason, I remember in

706
00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:19,440
Speaker 3: Sunday school the teacher calling out specifically Will and Grace

707
00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:22,120
Speaker 3: has like this uniquely evil thing, and he had like

708
00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:24,759
Speaker 3: never talked about pop culture before or music or TV

709
00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:26,640
Speaker 3: or movies, but that was like the one thing I

710
00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:29,760
Speaker 3: remember he singled out. So from the beginning, I almost

711
00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:33,120
Speaker 3: like had caught on that it was something controversial before

712
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:36,440
Speaker 3: I knew what it even was on its own, you know,

713
00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:41,440
Speaker 3: on its own. And then I think I really got

714
00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:45,760
Speaker 3: into it, probably after it stopped airing, because I started

715
00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:49,520
Speaker 3: just like watching it, like renting it, renting the DVDs,

716
00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:52,359
Speaker 3: or like watching it online. And it became sort of

717
00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:56,560
Speaker 3: like a comfort watch, like my number one comfort watch

718
00:36:56,640 --> 00:36:58,520
Speaker 3: throughout like high school and college that I would like

719
00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:00,480
Speaker 3: return to, or if I was like home for the

720
00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:02,600
Speaker 3: Christmas for Christmas break or something, I would just like

721
00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:04,440
Speaker 3: let it play in the background and watch like twelve

722
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:10,560
Speaker 3: episodes in a row. And Yeah, and it's interesting because

723
00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:14,960
Speaker 3: it hasn't had the same kind of nostalgic legacy as

724
00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:19,880
Speaker 3: even even like Friends or something like yes, it was rebooted, whatever,

725
00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:23,640
Speaker 3: But you don't really see you know, you don't see

726
00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:26,080
Speaker 3: a lot of like gifts of it or like people

727
00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:27,120
Speaker 3: constantly quoting it.

728
00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:28,680
Speaker 2: I mean you see some, but it's really not.

729
00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:31,000
Speaker 3: As much as as as a lot of this other

730
00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:32,920
Speaker 3: stuff that has had like a second life on streaming.

731
00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:35,560
Speaker 5: Yeah, there are no Will and Grace t shirts at

732
00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:38,279
Speaker 5: hot topic, right, Yeah, there are lots of Friends t

733
00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:39,719
Speaker 5: shirts at hot topic.

734
00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:42,440
Speaker 1: Even though it even though it is I believe, still

735
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:46,640
Speaker 1: in syndication. Yeah, I think you can still turn on

736
00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:49,880
Speaker 1: you know, TBS and catch an episode of Will and Grace.

737
00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:53,600
Speaker 1: You were talking talking about this episode with like the

738
00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:57,640
Speaker 1: Eiffel Tower shirt. The femininity really was like a sticking

739
00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:00,560
Speaker 1: point for pretty much everyone that ever can the show,

740
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:03,000
Speaker 1: and it was like a reason for people to basically

741
00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:05,640
Speaker 1: hate it, whether you were gay or straight. And like,

742
00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:09,360
Speaker 1: I think it honestly the kind of like, oh God

743
00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:11,400
Speaker 1: like terror feeling that like I.

744
00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:13,160
Speaker 4: Definitely felt as a kid when I watched it, that.

745
00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:14,720
Speaker 5: You felt as a kid that a lot of people

746
00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:18,960
Speaker 5: feel when they first see a flamboyant character on screen.

747
00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:24,879
Speaker 5: Like had a lot to do with like, uh wait,

748
00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:25,920
Speaker 5: what's what the.

749
00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:30,400
Speaker 4: Guy that plays with Jack, what's his name? Sean Hayes's

750
00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:32,279
Speaker 4: physical comedic brilliance?

751
00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:37,759
Speaker 5: Like he's such a a comedic genius as a physical comic, like.

752
00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:40,280
Speaker 4: Insurmountable.

753
00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:42,880
Speaker 5: And I think that his femininity and what he was

754
00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:47,319
Speaker 5: able to do with physical comedy, comedy and femininity is

755
00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:50,000
Speaker 5: why we were terrified, but also why it was radical

756
00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:52,600
Speaker 5: because I didn't get ninety percent of those jokes.

757
00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:55,480
Speaker 4: I didn't understand a lot of the zingers, but.

758
00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:58,919
Speaker 5: I understood what was physically funny about the show every

759
00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:03,200
Speaker 5: single character, including Sean Hayes obviously, but everybody's great at

760
00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:03,880
Speaker 5: physical comedy.

761
00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:06,640
Speaker 3: I feel, I mean, I'm glad you brought up the

762
00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:10,000
Speaker 3: sort of backlash against that character specifically because I mean,

763
00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:12,560
Speaker 3: especially among gay people, it was like, this is so

764
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:16,640
Speaker 3: harmful because it is perpetuating this harmful stereotype that gasp,

765
00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:20,799
Speaker 3: gay men or queenie like you know, it's like, yeah,

766
00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:25,600
Speaker 3: they are, and I think it really I notice you.

767
00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:28,360
Speaker 2: Say they and not we. Well, yeah, I'm sort of

768
00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:32,120
Speaker 2: more of a will part of that, but like, yeah,

769
00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:32,960
Speaker 2: I've met people like.

770
00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:36,400
Speaker 3: That for sure, and I accept them. Yeah, sure, But

771
00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:39,200
Speaker 3: I do think it really overshadows the fact that it

772
00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:43,160
Speaker 3: was this like genius performance, like to reduce that to like, oh,

773
00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:46,120
Speaker 3: he's being flamboyant, when it's so much more like he's

774
00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:48,400
Speaker 3: not being flamboyant in the way that like the bitchy

775
00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:51,320
Speaker 3: assistant in a rom Com is being flamboyant he's.

776
00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:51,680
Speaker 2: Doing like.

777
00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:55,759
Speaker 3: I mean, it's just like it's one of them, one

778
00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:58,239
Speaker 3: of them brilliant sitcom performances of all time.

779
00:39:59,239 --> 00:40:03,080
Speaker 1: Oh, I mean, honestly, every single one of them, in

780
00:40:03,239 --> 00:40:09,920
Speaker 1: a different way is giving an incredible comedic performance. Eric McCormick,

781
00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:13,319
Speaker 1: like also, I think is a great physical comedian, like

782
00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:16,360
Speaker 1: has this very sort of like gummy quality to his face.

783
00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:16,640
Speaker 6: You know.

784
00:40:17,040 --> 00:40:21,120
Speaker 1: Deborah Messing it like kind of is in the same boat.

785
00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:22,440
Speaker 1: Megan Malally like.

786
00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:23,880
Speaker 2: Is a genius.

787
00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:25,959
Speaker 6: And Karen is is mother.

788
00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:28,719
Speaker 1: Karen she is some mother for that she is like

789
00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:33,440
Speaker 1: she she just she is the divadal herself. They all

790
00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:37,319
Speaker 1: were were incredible and the show, I mean, you know,

791
00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:39,319
Speaker 1: we were talking about like where we all were when

792
00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:41,799
Speaker 1: this show came out, and like I like have such

793
00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:44,400
Speaker 1: a like boring context for it, because like I was

794
00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:46,840
Speaker 1: just allowed to watch whatever and like my family and

795
00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:50,840
Speaker 1: I definitely like watched this as part of that Thursday

796
00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:54,080
Speaker 1: night block Musty TV with Friends and Seinfeld and like

797
00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:57,239
Speaker 1: whatever other shows were on at the time, and like

798
00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:04,239
Speaker 1: somehow this show both seamlessly blended into the other sitcoms

799
00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:07,239
Speaker 1: that existed at the time because of the kind of

800
00:41:07,719 --> 00:41:13,160
Speaker 1: performances the actors were giving and also absolutely stuck out

801
00:41:13,160 --> 00:41:15,160
Speaker 1: and was singular for the same reason.

802
00:41:17,800 --> 00:41:21,640
Speaker 3: Also Deborah Messing, like I know, we all sort of

803
00:41:21,680 --> 00:41:23,720
Speaker 3: roll our eyes at her now and with good reason

804
00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:26,840
Speaker 3: when you look back on her, just her as a

805
00:41:26,840 --> 00:41:31,120
Speaker 3: comedic actress, like she is giving Lucille ball like it is.

806
00:41:31,719 --> 00:41:34,440
Speaker 2: She is, the way she uses her voice, I mean,

807
00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:35,080
Speaker 2: and and.

808
00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:37,719
Speaker 3: Also like there's a sort of not to use this

809
00:41:38,239 --> 00:41:40,080
Speaker 3: excuse mer not to use the word I'm choking up,

810
00:41:40,239 --> 00:41:42,719
Speaker 3: not to use the word brave, but there's a sort

811
00:41:42,719 --> 00:41:46,040
Speaker 3: of like bravery to like the way that she really

812
00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:49,439
Speaker 3: does just like debase herself physically. Like there's a part

813
00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:52,799
Speaker 3: there's a one episode where she's wearing this dress, this

814
00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:55,200
Speaker 3: very low cut dress without a bra, and the gag

815
00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:58,600
Speaker 3: is that Karen is fixing her boobs but they keep

816
00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:01,160
Speaker 3: like sacked, so she like pulls them up and then

817
00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:03,839
Speaker 3: they keep sagging, and it goes on for truly like

818
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:07,560
Speaker 3: twenty seconds of like Grace sitting there with her moves

819
00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:10,480
Speaker 3: all but exposed and Karen like trying to pull them up,

820
00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:13,080
Speaker 3: but then they keep sagging because Grace is so disgusting.

821
00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:15,799
Speaker 3: Like that's like the joke of the and it's like,

822
00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:20,080
Speaker 3: you know, it's not nothing like to just sit there.

823
00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:23,600
Speaker 1: It's very brave of her. And I think they all

824
00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:27,240
Speaker 1: you know, won Emmys and Golden Globes at various points

825
00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:30,680
Speaker 1: throughout the show's run, also thinking about okay, thinking about

826
00:42:30,719 --> 00:42:32,919
Speaker 1: the grace of it all, Like this is very Will

827
00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:33,600
Speaker 1: and Grace is.

828
00:42:33,560 --> 00:42:34,520
Speaker 6: Like peak fag.

829
00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:38,359
Speaker 3: I mean, Will and Grace is just like there are

830
00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:40,360
Speaker 3: gay men and there are straight women period.

831
00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:42,959
Speaker 2: Like that's I think that's like what we've been.

832
00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:45,719
Speaker 3: Of, like because we were all very like you know,

833
00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:48,200
Speaker 3: we're being sort of redemptive about it and we're being

834
00:42:48,239 --> 00:42:50,480
Speaker 3: positive about it. But like obviously all of us are

835
00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:53,200
Speaker 3: aware of like the shortcomings of the show.

836
00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:56,120
Speaker 2: Like yeah, there's nothing. Yeah, like we're not mentioning them.

837
00:42:56,000 --> 00:42:58,480
Speaker 3: Because I assume your listeners are smart enough to like

838
00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:00,480
Speaker 3: know them already and we can sort of like ellegrated

839
00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:03,520
Speaker 3: for what it is. But like it was peak fag

840
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:07,080
Speaker 3: hag culture. It was peak like I mean, the way

841
00:43:07,200 --> 00:43:10,440
Speaker 3: I'm not even gonna talk like the way that trans

842
00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:14,480
Speaker 3: people were like dealt with was like not even you know,

843
00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:17,160
Speaker 3: as though like not in human but even lesbians.

844
00:43:17,239 --> 00:43:19,640
Speaker 1: Well I clocked a joke with that Will made in

845
00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:21,840
Speaker 1: one of the episodes I was watching yesterday where he

846
00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:24,280
Speaker 1: was like I was the only boy who did some

847
00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:27,120
Speaker 1: kind of like gay thing. He's like, well, the only

848
00:43:27,160 --> 00:43:29,440
Speaker 1: one who still a boy, And it was like just

849
00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:30,160
Speaker 1: stuff like that.

850
00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:33,600
Speaker 3: But even les I mean, you know, even lesbians though,

851
00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:36,880
Speaker 3: were also the punchlines. Like you could argue that like,

852
00:43:36,960 --> 00:43:40,960
Speaker 3: oh we were not as close to sort of you know,

853
00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:45,600
Speaker 3: mainstream acceptance of trans people at the time. Fine, but

854
00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:48,719
Speaker 3: like what but but there was a sort of way

855
00:43:48,719 --> 00:43:50,919
Speaker 3: in which it was like, well, it's gay men's turn, now,

856
00:43:51,080 --> 00:43:53,960
Speaker 3: maybe lesbians will get a turn later. Like it was

857
00:43:54,040 --> 00:43:56,400
Speaker 3: it was a show about gay men, and like whenever

858
00:43:56,520 --> 00:43:59,080
Speaker 3: lesbians were on, they were like truly the butt of

859
00:43:59,120 --> 00:43:59,439
Speaker 3: the joke.

860
00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:01,839
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, every single time.

861
00:44:01,960 --> 00:44:05,719
Speaker 5: I mean yeah, I think that, like it's funny because obviously, yeah,

862
00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:07,200
Speaker 5: a lot of a lot of things like that are

863
00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:09,239
Speaker 5: like very reductive and all that jazz.

864
00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:12,640
Speaker 4: And like I do think that like contemporary.

865
00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:14,239
Speaker 5: Criticism, like people that were critical of it while it

866
00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:16,680
Speaker 5: was running, a lot of them came back to this

867
00:44:16,680 --> 00:44:19,560
Speaker 5: this thing about like homogeneity, right, like this is not

868
00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:22,359
Speaker 5: all of us, So why you know, why are these

869
00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:23,240
Speaker 5: characters so flat.

870
00:44:23,239 --> 00:44:25,239
Speaker 4: Why don't they have sex? Why don't they have inner lives?

871
00:44:25,239 --> 00:44:27,680
Speaker 5: And I'm like, it's a sitcom about upper or white

872
00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:30,239
Speaker 5: about upper class like white faggots, like.

873
00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:32,319
Speaker 1: And it's also it's not all of us, but it's

874
00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:34,200
Speaker 1: so it's such a lot of us.

875
00:44:34,040 --> 00:44:38,000
Speaker 5: And that's like it's it's scarcity, right, is like what

876
00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:40,479
Speaker 5: creates that? Like it's like all of us, like eating

877
00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:42,360
Speaker 5: each other alive is like a product of the oppression.

878
00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:44,600
Speaker 5: And it's like because there were only two other gay

879
00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:49,480
Speaker 5: shows out at the time, probably like we all hate

880
00:44:49,560 --> 00:44:52,600
Speaker 5: all of them, and like it's interesting that like now

881
00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:56,000
Speaker 5: in twenty twenty two, when we have like seven hundred

882
00:44:56,120 --> 00:44:58,000
Speaker 5: gay shows, we still.

883
00:44:57,719 --> 00:44:59,879
Speaker 2: All, oh a hundred or yeah.

884
00:45:00,239 --> 00:45:04,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's kind of really using, I mean because yeah.

885
00:45:04,560 --> 00:45:07,960
Speaker 3: And again it's almost like like it goes back to

886
00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:10,440
Speaker 3: the bookstore versus Jim thing. It's like there's a certain

887
00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:13,200
Speaker 3: honesty to what it was depicting. Like it was not

888
00:45:13,360 --> 00:45:17,440
Speaker 3: depicting a diverse friend group where everyone is of a

889
00:45:17,480 --> 00:45:21,600
Speaker 3: different socioeconomic status. It was depicting a very specific group

890
00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:27,319
Speaker 3: of people, like two upwardly mobile, rich professionals and then

891
00:45:27,360 --> 00:45:29,680
Speaker 3: like there are two friends, one of which is like

892
00:45:30,600 --> 00:45:32,719
Speaker 3: a dumb faggot, and the other one of which is

893
00:45:32,760 --> 00:45:36,400
Speaker 3: like an you know this like wealthy, fictional wealthy woman

894
00:45:36,480 --> 00:45:38,680
Speaker 3: that exists as like an imagination of a gay man,

895
00:45:38,760 --> 00:45:47,560
Speaker 3: you know, like so housing the way I I thought

896
00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:52,440
Speaker 3: that was the funniest thing. Wait, God, there was like

897
00:45:52,560 --> 00:45:55,479
Speaker 3: one line where Karen goes, so Grace is talking about

898
00:45:55,520 --> 00:45:57,439
Speaker 3: something kind of lame and boring or whatever, but she's

899
00:45:57,480 --> 00:45:59,960
Speaker 3: like portraying it as interesting. I think she's talking about

900
00:45:59,960 --> 00:46:02,200
Speaker 3: like planning a game night, so it's like something really stupid,

901
00:46:02,520 --> 00:46:05,319
Speaker 3: and Karen is just like rolling her eyes, and after

902
00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:09,160
Speaker 3: every sentence Grace says, she just like expresses her exasperation

903
00:46:09,239 --> 00:46:11,000
Speaker 3: even more. And then the final thing she says is

904
00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:13,680
Speaker 3: which lever do I pull to be crushed by a safe?

905
00:46:14,200 --> 00:46:17,640
Speaker 3: And it's just like, I mean, it's such a perfect

906
00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:39,759
Speaker 3: Karen Lyne.

907
00:46:41,520 --> 00:46:44,480
Speaker 1: It was jokes on jokes on jokes on jokes.

908
00:46:44,560 --> 00:46:45,440
Speaker 6: They never stopped.

909
00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:47,799
Speaker 1: I mean, that's what happens when, you know, in ye

910
00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:50,160
Speaker 1: olden days, when they're like twenty writers in the right

911
00:46:50,200 --> 00:46:53,759
Speaker 1: and they're all getting paid real money and get residuals

912
00:46:53,800 --> 00:46:58,440
Speaker 1: to this day, mama, yea truly, and it's wild to

913
00:46:58,480 --> 00:47:02,120
Speaker 1: think that, like Eric McCormick is still heterosexual, and like,

914
00:47:02,239 --> 00:47:07,080
Speaker 1: that's crazy, and what an interesting post Will and Grace's

915
00:47:07,120 --> 00:47:09,640
Speaker 1: career he's had. Because the only thing I ever the

916
00:47:09,680 --> 00:47:11,439
Speaker 1: only thing I've ever seen him in is he did

917
00:47:11,640 --> 00:47:14,600
Speaker 1: an episode on Lonard SVU where he was the villain.

918
00:47:14,920 --> 00:47:16,200
Speaker 6: It's very creepy.

919
00:47:16,320 --> 00:47:19,480
Speaker 5: Oh, I honestly, I'm kind of I'm depressed by the

920
00:47:19,480 --> 00:47:22,080
Speaker 5: fact that, like none of them really do much anymore.

921
00:47:22,200 --> 00:47:25,080
Speaker 5: Like I do think they all have like a sublime

922
00:47:25,520 --> 00:47:26,680
Speaker 5: ingenuity that would lend.

923
00:47:26,600 --> 00:47:28,320
Speaker 4: Itself so well to other shows.

924
00:47:28,360 --> 00:47:31,120
Speaker 1: Like I mean, well, they've all done things like Megan

925
00:47:31,160 --> 00:47:35,279
Speaker 1: Malally what is incredible on Parks and rec like she

926
00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:37,560
Speaker 1: was a recurring but that was a guest star.

927
00:47:39,200 --> 00:47:42,520
Speaker 3: Is coming up? So do you guys know Josh Sharp

928
00:47:42,560 --> 00:47:48,160
Speaker 3: and Aaron Jackson. Yes, she's in there movie which you know,

929
00:47:48,360 --> 00:47:51,279
Speaker 3: not to brag. I've seen a cut of and oh

930
00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:57,200
Speaker 3: when I tell you, I when I tell you You're gonna die.

931
00:47:57,560 --> 00:48:00,320
Speaker 3: I mean it is like it's like all bets are off,

932
00:48:00,680 --> 00:48:02,840
Speaker 3: Like it is a performance unlike anything I've ever seen.

933
00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:04,720
Speaker 4: I'm so excited.

934
00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:07,120
Speaker 1: Well, she has that, she has that in her and

935
00:48:07,200 --> 00:48:10,040
Speaker 1: always has and like the thing I think that the

936
00:48:10,160 --> 00:48:13,520
Speaker 1: reason why we're like they all deserve more is because

937
00:48:13,560 --> 00:48:16,920
Speaker 1: we're not like I don't think we're accurately remembering the

938
00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:20,480
Speaker 1: time when this show was such a cultural jug ornau

939
00:48:20,640 --> 00:48:24,840
Speaker 1: and these were incredibly famous people who were like winning

940
00:48:24,880 --> 00:48:29,120
Speaker 1: Emmys and Golden Globes every year, and like probably like

941
00:48:29,239 --> 00:48:32,279
Speaker 1: they all enjoy the fact that they only have to

942
00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:35,880
Speaker 1: work when they want to. And you know, even someone

943
00:48:35,920 --> 00:48:38,960
Speaker 1: like Sean hay Is like really like is very seems

944
00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:42,200
Speaker 1: to be very selective about what he like gets involved with,

945
00:48:42,239 --> 00:48:45,359
Speaker 1: and like he was he was in that Netflix show

946
00:48:45,440 --> 00:48:47,920
Speaker 1: Q Force and was a producer on it, and like,

947
00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:52,640
Speaker 1: you know, I think like they're again like they are

948
00:48:52,680 --> 00:48:55,360
Speaker 1: all making tons of residuals because like this is a

949
00:48:55,400 --> 00:48:58,759
Speaker 1: sitcom and there are a million episodes of it, and like,

950
00:48:59,320 --> 00:49:02,040
Speaker 1: of course, yes, I wish we saw more of them,

951
00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:05,319
Speaker 1: and maybe who knows, like this movie will be a

952
00:49:05,360 --> 00:49:09,000
Speaker 1: moment to like reinsert Megan Malali back in pop culture.

953
00:49:09,040 --> 00:49:11,520
Speaker 1: But like, I don't think it's like necessarily fair to

954
00:49:11,560 --> 00:49:13,560
Speaker 1: say that like they've done nothing.

955
00:49:15,320 --> 00:49:20,520
Speaker 3: It's more like there aren't that many, like there aren't

956
00:49:20,520 --> 00:49:23,279
Speaker 3: that many sitcoms like that where the full range of

957
00:49:23,280 --> 00:49:27,560
Speaker 3: their talents could be yes, played like because they are. Yeah,

958
00:49:27,560 --> 00:49:29,800
Speaker 3: you're right, they are all consistently. I mean Megamali especially

959
00:49:29,960 --> 00:49:32,399
Speaker 3: has had truly I mean it's funny, like talking about

960
00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:34,799
Speaker 3: happy endings. She plays Casey Wilson's mom and happy endings

961
00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:36,680
Speaker 3: and it's like a very funny role. Or like she'll

962
00:49:36,719 --> 00:49:40,200
Speaker 3: be in Parkson Regg, she'll be in Oh god, she

963
00:49:40,280 --> 00:49:42,000
Speaker 3: was recently in something and she was really good. Anyway,

964
00:49:42,160 --> 00:49:45,960
Speaker 3: it's they're all doing. I mean, listen, Deborah Messing was

965
00:49:46,960 --> 00:49:49,239
Speaker 3: has done a lot of stage work, none of it,

966
00:49:49,360 --> 00:49:54,040
Speaker 3: none of it. She also she also had that show

967
00:49:54,120 --> 00:49:56,880
Speaker 3: where she was Yes Hemistry Laura and.

968
00:49:56,719 --> 00:50:00,520
Speaker 6: She and she was she was a.

969
00:50:00,560 --> 00:50:03,640
Speaker 1: Cop in that movie Searching. Oh my god, all right,

970
00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:09,720
Speaker 1: why does she like playing cop? You? You are both reaching.

971
00:50:09,600 --> 00:50:12,160
Speaker 2: So you forget about.

972
00:50:13,840 --> 00:50:15,040
Speaker 4: Okay, No, here's what I'm trying.

973
00:50:15,239 --> 00:50:17,120
Speaker 5: Here's what Here's what I'm getting at when I by

974
00:50:17,400 --> 00:50:19,680
Speaker 5: mentioning it rose, I think you're looking at it through

975
00:50:19,760 --> 00:50:23,239
Speaker 5: rose color classes to say that they are being yes,

976
00:50:23,520 --> 00:50:25,799
Speaker 5: to say that they're being selective about like I think

977
00:50:26,000 --> 00:50:29,960
Speaker 5: I think we're taking for granted just how homophobic Hollywood

978
00:50:30,200 --> 00:50:31,480
Speaker 5: is and still is.

979
00:50:31,719 --> 00:50:33,800
Speaker 4: And I think that baby, it's not.

980
00:50:36,800 --> 00:50:38,839
Speaker 5: And I think no, I do think that, like like

981
00:50:39,160 --> 00:50:42,879
Speaker 5: when you are known for doing one gay thing for

982
00:50:42,960 --> 00:50:46,480
Speaker 5: eight years, you'll never get any work outside of that,

983
00:50:46,600 --> 00:50:49,560
Speaker 5: Like like I mean, especially Sean and Sean and Eric,

984
00:50:49,680 --> 00:50:52,440
Speaker 5: like no one would ever ever ever cast them in

985
00:50:52,880 --> 00:50:56,960
Speaker 5: straight like major movie or TV show, like straight roles,

986
00:50:57,040 --> 00:51:00,200
Speaker 5: different types anything, like it's not gonna work. And with

987
00:51:00,200 --> 00:51:03,640
Speaker 5: with Deborah Messing and Megan Malalley, I would I would

988
00:51:03,640 --> 00:51:07,680
Speaker 5: wager that their reputation and their commitment to a historically

989
00:51:07,719 --> 00:51:11,160
Speaker 5: gay show is part of like what deters them from

990
00:51:11,160 --> 00:51:12,880
Speaker 5: being bookable in other places.

991
00:51:12,880 --> 00:51:14,800
Speaker 4: And like I don't think I would say that if.

992
00:51:14,600 --> 00:51:17,920
Speaker 5: Like Deborah Messing wasn't so desperate about like being in

993
00:51:17,960 --> 00:51:21,399
Speaker 5: the Lucille Ball biopic or like constantly pitching herself for things.

994
00:51:21,440 --> 00:51:23,239
Speaker 4: And I'm like, girl, like you're a legend. You don't

995
00:51:23,280 --> 00:51:24,200
Speaker 4: need to be doing this.

996
00:51:24,600 --> 00:51:27,520
Speaker 5: And I and I think part of like where I'm

997
00:51:27,560 --> 00:51:31,160
Speaker 5: going as like you know Ellen, when Ellen came out,

998
00:51:31,440 --> 00:51:35,640
Speaker 5: she did like pay like she paved the way for

999
00:51:35,719 --> 00:51:38,320
Speaker 5: Will and Grace to exist. But like when Laura Dern

1000
00:51:38,360 --> 00:51:42,520
Speaker 5: played Ellen's love interest for that episode of TV of

1001
00:51:42,560 --> 00:51:44,839
Speaker 5: her coming out TV show, she did not get work

1002
00:51:44,880 --> 00:51:48,000
Speaker 5: for like what six seven eight years, she got like

1003
00:51:48,080 --> 00:51:48,680
Speaker 5: death threats.

1004
00:51:48,719 --> 00:51:50,440
Speaker 4: She was like cast out from Hollywood.

1005
00:51:50,480 --> 00:51:54,600
Speaker 5: Like there's so much like residual homophobia that like makes

1006
00:51:54,960 --> 00:51:58,839
Speaker 5: people associated with queer things I guess not bookable. And

1007
00:51:58,880 --> 00:52:00,919
Speaker 5: if it's not a f and if it's not homophobia,

1008
00:52:01,360 --> 00:52:06,080
Speaker 5: it's actually just like the limitedness of casting directors totally.

1009
00:52:06,200 --> 00:52:08,719
Speaker 1: And well, yeah, I do think a big part of

1010
00:52:08,719 --> 00:52:11,680
Speaker 1: it is the sitcom of it all is that it's

1011
00:52:11,760 --> 00:52:14,680
Speaker 1: probably very hard for a casting director to look at

1012
00:52:14,680 --> 00:52:19,080
Speaker 1: Sean Hayes and see him as anything other than just Jack,

1013
00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:22,920
Speaker 1: you know, like, and it's hard for audiences probably.

1014
00:52:22,680 --> 00:52:24,080
Speaker 6: To do the same.

1015
00:52:24,360 --> 00:52:27,880
Speaker 1: And I'm sure that, bundled with the extreme homophobia of

1016
00:52:27,920 --> 00:52:32,759
Speaker 1: the world and of Hollywood, makes it hard for them.

1017
00:52:32,800 --> 00:52:35,640
Speaker 3: I mean Sean Hayes specifically, it's interesting has like rebranded

1018
00:52:35,719 --> 00:52:37,400
Speaker 3: himself as a sort of power producer.

1019
00:52:37,440 --> 00:52:38,239
Speaker 2: Like if you go to his.

1020
00:52:39,680 --> 00:52:42,480
Speaker 3: He's really like produced a lot of stuff and he's

1021
00:52:42,520 --> 00:52:44,480
Speaker 3: like someone people really want to work with.

1022
00:52:44,520 --> 00:52:45,960
Speaker 2: And I think he has like a good reputation.

1023
00:52:46,120 --> 00:52:48,839
Speaker 3: I mean, of course, like God will strike me dead

1024
00:52:48,880 --> 00:52:51,960
Speaker 3: because tomorrow it'll reveal that like I don't know, he threw.

1025
00:52:51,800 --> 00:52:54,359
Speaker 2: Someone out a window. But yeah, I wish that's mess

1026
00:52:54,440 --> 00:52:55,279
Speaker 2: with the best.

1027
00:52:56,000 --> 00:52:56,400
Speaker 6: Truly.

1028
00:52:56,640 --> 00:52:59,160
Speaker 4: I want so much for her, I want so much.

1029
00:52:59,280 --> 00:53:01,239
Speaker 6: Well, she she's an icon and she.

1030
00:53:01,239 --> 00:53:04,040
Speaker 2: Still got it. She's still got the comedic timing. You know.

1031
00:53:05,120 --> 00:53:07,759
Speaker 3: I do think there's a lack of focus where it's

1032
00:53:07,800 --> 00:53:10,960
Speaker 3: like she shouldn't be doing She did this off Broadway

1033
00:53:11,000 --> 00:53:16,400
Speaker 3: play that was like a woman aging four decades in

1034
00:53:16,440 --> 00:53:18,799
Speaker 3: real not in real time, I'd say in real time,

1035
00:53:19,280 --> 00:53:21,600
Speaker 3: not time, but yeah, it was like it was it

1036
00:53:21,640 --> 00:53:24,040
Speaker 3: was called Birthday Candles, and it was like every like

1037
00:53:24,080 --> 00:53:26,320
Speaker 3: fifteen minutes she had a new birthday or something. I

1038
00:53:26,320 --> 00:53:30,160
Speaker 3: I'm obviously it's not exactly that, but it's essentially that she.

1039
00:53:30,120 --> 00:53:30,919
Speaker 2: Did this other play.

1040
00:53:31,080 --> 00:53:34,440
Speaker 3: She shouldn't be be treating this other which people, if

1041
00:53:34,440 --> 00:53:37,280
Speaker 3: you haven't seen clips of you have to google Deborah

1042
00:53:37,320 --> 00:53:39,560
Speaker 3: Messing Irish accent. She did some play where she was

1043
00:53:39,600 --> 00:53:42,960
Speaker 3: meant to be Irish and she's acting like alongside an

1044
00:53:42,960 --> 00:53:45,400
Speaker 3: actual Irish person, and it's truly, I can't even do

1045
00:53:45,520 --> 00:53:47,839
Speaker 3: it justice, Like it is unlike anything I've ever heard

1046
00:53:47,880 --> 00:53:49,960
Speaker 3: of in my life. If you can find a clip

1047
00:53:50,120 --> 00:53:52,200
Speaker 3: and put it here, truly like it is a treat.

1048
00:53:52,640 --> 00:53:55,600
Speaker 1: Well, well, she is one of our most iconic redheads,

1049
00:53:55,800 --> 00:53:59,759
Speaker 1: and I what. I had a hair appointment yesterday and

1050
00:54:00,200 --> 00:54:02,439
Speaker 1: I got home afterwards I was watching Will and Grace

1051
00:54:02,440 --> 00:54:05,320
Speaker 1: and I realized my hair color is like Grace.

1052
00:54:05,400 --> 00:54:07,800
Speaker 2: Are you are giving Grace? I have to say.

1053
00:54:08,440 --> 00:54:11,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I'm also but also Megan Malali in her

1054
00:54:11,280 --> 00:54:14,560
Speaker 1: real life is is a redhead. So I'm gonna say

1055
00:54:14,600 --> 00:54:18,680
Speaker 1: I'm still I'm still a Karen. Yeah we should Karen.

1056
00:54:18,520 --> 00:54:28,560
Speaker 7: Should all be Karen's write the book.

1057
00:54:33,280 --> 00:54:35,439
Speaker 1: Decide into our DMS at Like a Virgin four twenty

1058
00:54:35,480 --> 00:54:37,480
Speaker 1: sixty nine and let us know, did you watch Will

1059
00:54:37,520 --> 00:54:39,239
Speaker 1: and Grace? Are you a Will? Are you a Grace?

1060
00:54:39,320 --> 00:54:42,919
Speaker 1: Are you a Jack? Are you a Karen? And we'll

1061
00:54:42,920 --> 00:54:45,480
Speaker 1: be back next week with a new episode. You can

1062
00:54:45,520 --> 00:54:47,759
Speaker 1: become a patron at Patreon dot com slash like a

1063
00:54:47,840 --> 00:54:50,439
Speaker 1: Virgin four weekly bonus episodes so you can also buy

1064
00:54:50,440 --> 00:54:54,600
Speaker 1: our march at Like a Virgin four sixty nine dot com.

1065
00:54:55,040 --> 00:54:57,360
Speaker 1: Follow us on Instagram at Like a Virgin four twenty

1066
00:54:57,400 --> 00:55:00,239
Speaker 1: sixty nine. You can follow me anywhere you want, do

1067
00:55:00,440 --> 00:55:03,920
Speaker 1: you and you can find Fran at France wishco. Like

1068
00:55:03,960 --> 00:55:06,920
Speaker 1: a Virgin is an iHeartRadio production. Our producer is Phoebee

1069
00:55:07,000 --> 00:55:12,040
Speaker 1: Unter with support from Lindsay Hoffmann and Nikkiktor until next week.

1070
00:55:12,800 --> 00:55:16,480
Speaker 2: Au Revoir, Just Jack.

1071
00:55:19,640 --> 00:55:23,040
Speaker 1: And now a clip from our Patreon. Become a patron

1072
00:55:23,160 --> 00:55:26,240
Speaker 1: at patreon dot com slash like a Virgin for weekly

1073
00:55:26,280 --> 00:55:27,520
Speaker 1: bonus episodes and more.

1074
00:55:28,239 --> 00:55:28,479
Speaker 6: Wow.

1075
00:55:29,040 --> 00:55:33,279
Speaker 1: Last week I read a gay pirate book, Erotic Yes,

1076
00:55:34,000 --> 00:55:36,320
Speaker 1: All Kidnapped by the Pirate.

1077
00:55:36,600 --> 00:55:38,160
Speaker 4: And your review.

1078
00:55:40,440 --> 00:55:41,520
Speaker 6: You're like, remember three and.

1079
00:55:41,560 --> 00:55:46,040
Speaker 1: A half stars, Yes, but I still enjoyed it. It's

1080
00:55:46,040 --> 00:55:53,520
Speaker 1: about So, it's about this young twink who is moving

1081
00:55:53,640 --> 00:56:01,839
Speaker 1: from England to a an island. His father has been like,

1082
00:56:02,560 --> 00:56:04,400
Speaker 1: is going to be the governor of you know, this

1083
00:56:04,520 --> 00:56:07,279
Speaker 1: is like early seventeen hundreds. It's like Pirates of the

1084
00:56:07,280 --> 00:56:11,799
Speaker 1: Caribbean vibes And on their voyage they get boarded by

1085
00:56:11,840 --> 00:56:16,600
Speaker 1: a pirate vessel and this this pirate kidnaps him because

1086
00:56:16,960 --> 00:56:21,400
Speaker 1: the boy's father cheated the pirate years before, because the

1087
00:56:21,400 --> 00:56:24,440
Speaker 1: pirate used to be a privateer and because of the

1088
00:56:24,480 --> 00:56:27,040
Speaker 1: boy's father, he was forced into a life of piracy.

1089
00:56:27,680 --> 00:56:29,640
Speaker 1: So the pirate kidnaps him and he's like, well, I'm

1090
00:56:29,680 --> 00:56:32,719
Speaker 1: gonna ransom you back to your father, and so he

1091
00:56:32,840 --> 00:56:33,680
Speaker 1: keeps him on him.

1092
00:56:33,600 --> 00:56:34,760
Speaker 2: He keeps him on his ship.

1093
00:56:35,280 --> 00:56:37,600
Speaker 1: He keeps him on his ship, like in his cabin.

1094
00:56:38,000 --> 00:56:42,719
Speaker 1: But unbeknownst to him, this boy, his whole life has

1095
00:56:42,760 --> 00:56:49,680
Speaker 1: been like I want God so badly, and the pirate

1096
00:56:49,880 --> 00:56:52,120
Speaker 1: is like being really mean to him, but the boy is.

1097
00:56:52,040 --> 00:56:53,319
Speaker 6: Like turned on by it.

1098
00:56:54,120 --> 00:56:55,120
Speaker 4: He's like, don't be mean to me.

1099
00:56:55,160 --> 00:56:55,600
Speaker 1: I'll come.

1100
00:56:56,440 --> 00:56:56,600
Speaker 7: No.

1101
00:56:56,960 --> 00:57:00,400
Speaker 1: Literally, like there's a scene where because he makes the

1102
00:57:00,400 --> 00:57:03,399
Speaker 1: boy stay in his cabin all day, and so one

1103
00:57:03,480 --> 00:57:04,520
Speaker 1: day the boy's like.

1104
00:57:04,520 --> 00:57:07,600
Speaker 4: He's like, yeah, lock my cock and the page daddy. No.

1105
00:57:08,120 --> 00:57:09,719
Speaker 6: One day, the boy's like, well, what am I gonna do?

1106
00:57:09,800 --> 00:57:11,680
Speaker 1: I guess I'm just gonna jerk off, and so he

1107
00:57:11,840 --> 00:57:15,439
Speaker 1: jerks off, and right after he comes, the pirate comes

1108
00:57:15,480 --> 00:57:18,400
Speaker 1: inside and the boy like hides his hand come behind

1109
00:57:18,440 --> 00:57:21,040
Speaker 1: his back, and the Pirate's like, what are you hiding?

1110
00:57:21,120 --> 00:57:23,320
Speaker 1: And he brings it out and his hands full of cum,

1111
00:57:23,400 --> 00:57:25,960
Speaker 1: and the pirate's like he he he, well.

1112
00:57:25,800 --> 00:57:28,000
Speaker 4: He acknowledges that it's common. He's like, I caught you

1113
00:57:28,120 --> 00:57:28,560
Speaker 4: jerking it.

1114
00:57:28,640 --> 00:57:28,840
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1115
00:57:28,880 --> 00:57:30,040
Speaker 6: Well the pirate's also gay.

1116
00:57:30,760 --> 00:57:33,960
Speaker 5: Pirate entities just tend to be gay, yeah, like they

1117
00:57:34,000 --> 00:57:37,440
Speaker 5: really it comes with the culture.

1118
00:57:37,320 --> 00:57:40,920
Speaker 1: Yes, And so they do eventually start fucking and sucking

1119
00:57:41,360 --> 00:57:42,440
Speaker 1: and they fall.

1120
00:57:42,280 --> 00:57:43,760
Speaker 4: In love fucking sucking too.

1121
00:57:44,240 --> 00:57:44,520
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1122
00:57:44,560 --> 00:57:47,200
Speaker 1: And the thing that I always think in these circumstances

1123
00:57:47,280 --> 00:57:54,000
Speaker 1: is their holes and other body parts would be so dirty,

1124
00:57:54,120 --> 00:57:57,560
Speaker 1: so smelly, so smelly, smelly, so covered, and shit so

1125
00:57:57,680 --> 00:58:00,760
Speaker 1: covered and shit, and I do you have to suspend

1126
00:58:00,760 --> 00:58:04,560
Speaker 1: disbelief a little bit. Yeah, that's why I.

1127
00:58:03,760 --> 00:58:09,320
Speaker 7: The captain bent over and I saw his cleanish wish.

1128
00:58:09,520 --> 00:58:11,360
Speaker 1: I mean, there is a plot point where like the

1129
00:58:11,360 --> 00:58:13,440
Speaker 1: boys like, please let me take a bath, and so

1130
00:58:13,640 --> 00:58:15,560
Speaker 1: like he does bathe before the first time they have

1131
00:58:15,640 --> 00:58:18,880
Speaker 1: SA so you know, he is like nice and but

1132
00:58:19,000 --> 00:58:21,480
Speaker 1: we all know that baths are not very sanitary.

1133
00:58:22,000 --> 00:58:22,160
Speaker 6: Yeah.

1134
00:58:22,160 --> 00:58:23,440
Speaker 1: And it's not even a real bath. It's like a

1135
00:58:23,480 --> 00:58:27,640
Speaker 1: bucket that he's cleaning himself with. It's why I do

1136
00:58:27,920 --> 00:58:30,000
Speaker 1: kind of like sometimes when I read like gay fantasy,

1137
00:58:30,000 --> 00:58:31,880
Speaker 1: because like with the monsters, it's like they don't eat,

1138
00:58:31,920 --> 00:58:32,520
Speaker 1: so they don't shit.

1139
00:58:32,680 --> 00:58:35,280
Speaker 5: Are you do you prefer shower before sex like in

1140
00:58:35,360 --> 00:58:39,000
Speaker 5: all cases or are you just does it kind of depend.

1141
00:58:39,080 --> 00:58:40,080
Speaker 6: I do prefer it.

1142
00:58:40,200 --> 00:58:43,680
Speaker 1: I had someone recently actually ask me not to shower

1143
00:58:43,720 --> 00:58:44,440
Speaker 1: before sex.

1144
00:58:44,560 --> 00:58:48,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, people ask and I like the musk. Yeah, if

1145
00:58:48,200 --> 00:58:49,720
Speaker 4: you want the musk, that's fine. It's just I don't

1146
00:58:49,720 --> 00:58:50,439
Speaker 4: really want the musk.

1147
00:58:50,640 --> 00:58:51,560
Speaker 6: I want the musk.

1148
00:58:51,720 --> 00:58:54,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, oh, I like the musk. I don't like a

1149
00:58:54,880 --> 00:58:56,800
Speaker 4: lot of musk. I only like a little musk.

1150
00:58:56,960 --> 00:58:59,320
Speaker 6: I like a I really like a musky pit.

1151
00:59:00,720 --> 00:59:05,480
Speaker 4: I couldn't handle that. I couldn't handle like dark bo.

1152
00:59:05,680 --> 00:59:08,480
Speaker 1: Not like dank dank, but like I don't want to.

1153
00:59:08,920 --> 00:59:11,600
Speaker 1: I like armpits and I like to lick an armpit,

1154
00:59:11,720 --> 00:59:13,400
Speaker 1: and I don't want to taste deodorant.

1155
00:59:13,520 --> 00:59:13,720
Speaker 2: Same.

1156
00:59:13,800 --> 00:59:17,520
Speaker 1: The ideal would be if you showered and then didn't

1157
00:59:17,640 --> 00:59:20,400
Speaker 1: like put anything on and then came.

1158
00:59:20,200 --> 00:59:22,040
Speaker 4: Over yeah, or you had just like you know, an

1159
00:59:22,120 --> 00:59:23,280
Speaker 4: essential oil or something.

1160
00:59:23,440 --> 00:59:26,600
Speaker 1: But there's like this guy who asked me not to shower.

1161
00:59:26,640 --> 00:59:31,040
Speaker 1: He was actually like, oh, you should go to the gym.

1162
00:59:30,480 --> 00:59:34,880
Speaker 5: Oh and get your sweat. Yeah, that's coreact. I mean, look,

1163
00:59:34,920 --> 00:59:35,920
Speaker 5: some girls be into that.

1164
00:59:36,000 --> 00:59:37,960
Speaker 4: Okay, I know, Okay,