Speaker 1: Brought to you by Bank of America. Merrill Lynch Seeing
Speaker 1: what others have seen, but uncovering what others may not.
Speaker 1: Global Research that helps you harness disruption voted top Global
Speaker 1: research from five years running. Merrill Lynch, Pierce, Fenner, and
Speaker 1: Smith Incorporated. When I got out and I had access
Speaker 1: to the Internet of the cannabis, tarted to realize that
Speaker 1: there were all these other ways, like all the all
Speaker 1: these other points at which race can play roles, such
Speaker 1: as you know, rebounding from something like this. Um. You know,
Speaker 1: there's there's some data I've read that that white people
Speaker 1: with a record are more likely to get hired than
Speaker 1: black people with that one, and you know that that's
Speaker 1: kind of shocking. Hello, and welcome back to Bloomberg Benchmark
Speaker 1: Show about the global economy. I'm Scott Landman, an economics
Speaker 1: editor with Bloomberg News in Washington, and I'm Keith Smith,
Speaker 1: an editor with Bloomberg here in New York. All right, well,
Speaker 1: if you're looking for a break from this post election madness,
Speaker 1: you've come to the right place. Today on Benchmark, we're
Speaker 1: turning our attention to an often overlooked corner of the U.
Speaker 1: S economy. Our prison population. So here are some numbers
Speaker 1: that we found really interesting. The US accounts for one
Speaker 1: fifth of the world's prisoners, even though the nation only
Speaker 1: has of the world's population. That's right, the US has
Speaker 1: two point two million people in prison, and that's more
Speaker 1: people than China actually has in prison, and China has
Speaker 1: a population that's four times bigger than the United States.
Speaker 1: All told, the US imprisons almost one per cent of
Speaker 1: its population. That excludes other forms of detention, but it's still,
Speaker 1: you know, pretty high number. And it's actually the highest
Speaker 1: proportion in the world when you look at the share
Speaker 1: of the population that's in jail. So here a Bloomberg.
Speaker 1: We obviously love superlatives. So hearing highest proportion, that got
Speaker 1: us thinking two questions, are there too many people in jail?
Speaker 1: And is that very fact? You know? The extension in
Speaker 1: that we make it tough for x cons to get
Speaker 1: back to jobs, is holding back economic growth? Well, joining
Speaker 1: us today to explore the issue as a woman in
Speaker 1: her early thirties who was intimately familiar with what it's
Speaker 1: like to go to prison and what it's like to
Speaker 1: rejoin the workforce afterwards. Carry Blakinger was a senior at Cornell,
Speaker 1: the Ivy League university in upstate New York, when she
Speaker 1: was busted six years ago for heroin possession six ounces
Speaker 1: to be precise. Kerry pleaded guilty to criminal possession of
Speaker 1: a controlled substance Class B felony and served twenty one
Speaker 1: months in prison out of a two and a half
Speaker 1: year sentence. She did most of her time at Albion,
Speaker 1: a medium security facility for women in upstate New York.
Speaker 1: Following her release in September, Carry managed to get reinstated
Speaker 1: at Cornell, graduated with a degree in English in December,
Speaker 1: and got herself a job at the Ithaca Times. She
Speaker 1: since moved on to the New York Daily News and
Speaker 1: more recently moved to Texas, where she's now working as
Speaker 1: a general assignment reporter at the Houston Chronicle. She's on
Speaker 1: the phone with us now from Houston. Carry, thank you
Speaker 1: so much for joining us today. Hi, thanks for having me. Carry.
Speaker 1: Let's get one thing out of the way, something you've
Speaker 1: been open about discussing. You're white. How much did your
Speaker 1: race play in your ability to rebound from prison, earn
Speaker 1: your degree and get a job in the industry of
Speaker 1: your choosing? Well, you know, I think that, Uh it
Speaker 1: obviously it played a huge role, but uh, it's really
Speaker 1: difficult to point to an exact moment and say, oh,
Speaker 1: this happened because I was white. Uh. It's something that
Speaker 1: I sort of gradually realized in looking at data that
Speaker 1: there are um a lot of indications that statistically this
Speaker 1: rebound would have been less likely if I were a minority. Um.
Speaker 1: I think that before going to prison, I hadn't really
Speaker 1: thought a lot about the racial disparities in the criminal
Speaker 1: justice system. Like I sort of I knew that they existed,
Speaker 1: as I think everyone does, but it didn't really hit
Speaker 1: home until I was actually seen it in front of me. Uh.
Speaker 1: And and even then it was not immediately apparent because
Speaker 1: in the county that I got arrested in, it's so
Speaker 1: over overwhelmingly white that the county jail is also overwhelmingly white.
Speaker 1: It's uh. In Thompton County, which is where it is,
Speaker 1: the county jail is somewhere around twentysomething present black, which
Speaker 1: is much lower than most other incarcerated populations. But that's
Speaker 1: because the town is only about five percent block. So
Speaker 1: it wasn't until I went to state prison. Um after
Speaker 1: about ten months that I that I was seeing, you know,
Speaker 1: around half of the population was black, and um, you know,
Speaker 1: and that is that makes it much more obvious. That
Speaker 1: sort of drives home these statistics that you might read about, um,
Speaker 1: you know, I mean when you hear people's stories and
Speaker 1: you realize why they're there and the differences in what
Speaker 1: sort of crimes lands people in prison. So you know
Speaker 1: this this was sort of gradual realization for me. And
Speaker 1: then when I got out, uh and I had access
Speaker 1: to the internet the cannon, I started to realize that
Speaker 1: there were all these other ways, like all the all
Speaker 1: these other points at which race can play roles, such
Speaker 1: as you know, rebounding from something like this. Um, you know,
Speaker 1: there's there's some data I've read that, uh that white
Speaker 1: people with a record are more likely to get hired
Speaker 1: than black people with that one, and you know that
Speaker 1: that's kind of shocking. I certainly can't look back at
Speaker 1: anyone's job and say, oh, I I would not have
Speaker 1: gotten hired if I were a minority in this job.
Speaker 1: But I know that overall, statistically it's true. And I
Speaker 1: think that that's something that sometimes people struggle with when they,
Speaker 1: you know, they'll ask me, well, at what point did
Speaker 1: this play a role? And I sort of can't point
Speaker 1: to any one thing and say definitively race with the
Speaker 1: factor here, but I can say that, you know, there's
Speaker 1: all these different points at which is really likely that
Speaker 1: it played a role, and it's you know, statistically looking
Speaker 1: at the data, is it looks like it's likely played
Speaker 1: a role. If I can jump in, Um, one thing,
Speaker 1: I you know, kind of as you're talking, I thought
Speaker 1: was a little bit interesting. So obviously you know the
Speaker 1: word fell in. You know, it carries a start, as
Speaker 1: you know, a certain stigma, but in reality it's an
Speaker 1: umbrella term for you know, a host of different things,
Speaker 1: you know, ranging from you know, kind of what happened
Speaker 1: with you, but then you know some much much more
Speaker 1: like violent crimes. Um, why does society attach so much
Speaker 1: stigma to felons given that you know kind of the
Speaker 1: breadth of those crimes and some are just so much
Speaker 1: worse than others. I mean, is this failure to properly
Speaker 1: rehabilitate people holding back society and the economy. Well, to
Speaker 1: answer your your first question, I think that, uh, one
Speaker 1: of the reason people attached to speaking of sounds is
Speaker 1: because a lot of people think of silence as rapists
Speaker 1: and murderers, and it's actually, you know, as you said,
Speaker 1: a much broader class. I mean, this can include drunk
Speaker 1: driving charges, even in situations where no one's actually been injured. UM.
Speaker 1: Not to minimize the severity of drunk driving, but I'm
Speaker 1: just saying I think that's not what a lot of
Speaker 1: people think of when they think of a felon UM.
Speaker 1: So I think that that's part of the reason why
Speaker 1: there's this stigma, because people sort of just assume this
Speaker 1: means murderers and rapists, you know, and and also you know,
Speaker 1: Sony's don't go away in most states. In some states
Speaker 1: there are options to ex fund or steal your record. UM.
Speaker 1: But something that's twenty years old can have just as
Speaker 1: much impact on your ability to get a job as
Speaker 1: something that's five years old. It really just depends on
Speaker 1: how employers ask, how they ask about it, and how
Speaker 1: they choose to take time to account. If I can
Speaker 1: ask you a personal question, Carrie, when you were looking
Speaker 1: at jobs after um, your experience in prison, how did
Speaker 1: you handle that question? So, my my first job at
Speaker 1: the at the Times, it was not a question. Everything
Speaker 1: you knew. It was a small town like there's no
Speaker 1: chance i'd he was unaware. Um, so, uh, you know,
Speaker 1: it's it's a small, very liberal town, and um, you
Speaker 1: know this was just sort of h it was a
Speaker 1: nice little homie paper and a nice community, so it
Speaker 1: was not as likely to affect me there in that job. Okay,
Speaker 1: but that's then moving up to the other one the
Speaker 1: other places, right, So since then, Um, I've I've found that,
Speaker 1: you know, I've applied for a number of jobs, and
Speaker 1: I've only had one job that asked about it and
Speaker 1: actually called me back. Every other time that I've had
Speaker 1: to check the box, uh, I've never gotten a callback.
Speaker 1: You know, I've never heard anything. Um, although I've I've
Speaker 1: gotten a you know, a decent call back right on
Speaker 1: jobs that I did not have to check the box.
Speaker 1: So that's not a definitive study or any conclusion, but
Speaker 1: you know it, and totally it does. It has seemed
Speaker 1: to make a difference in my personal experience of employment.
Speaker 1: My current job is the only one that I've ever
Speaker 1: checked off the box floor and not only gotten a
Speaker 1: call back, but then actually got hired. Um. The Daily
Speaker 1: News did not ask any climes did not ask, although
Speaker 1: I should have assumed that in journalism, employers would be
Speaker 1: likely to google you, so I have to do that
Speaker 1: in my case. People know. But I do think that when,
Speaker 1: when and whether they ask uh is sort of indicative
Speaker 1: of how they're they're going to handle the answer. Right now.
Speaker 1: And we talk about how many people are in prison
Speaker 1: in this country, thinking about your own experience, how many
Speaker 1: of the people you saw during your time in prison
Speaker 1: should not have been there in your opinion, or we're
Speaker 1: serving too long relative to the crimes they committed. I mean,
Speaker 1: I think, I think that's a really hard question to answer.
Speaker 1: But uh, but one thing that I did notice is
Speaker 1: that I feel like, uh, you know, in a lot
Speaker 1: of cases, you know, well, in almost all cases, prison
Speaker 1: did not help. It's not like, uh, somebody went to
Speaker 1: prison and came out and was better able to address life,
Speaker 1: Like That's that's pretty rare that someone comes out and
Speaker 1: does better after prison than they did before. So, uh
Speaker 1: So in that sense, you know, almost you know, almost
Speaker 1: no one should should be there if that's the measure.
Speaker 1: If the goal is rehabilitation. Of course, the goal is
Speaker 1: not solely rehabilitation. Part of the goal of prison is punishment,
Speaker 1: so you know, that's the more subjective thing I probably
Speaker 1: can't really speak to. All Right, Well, we're gonna take
Speaker 1: a break for a word from our sponsor and we'll
Speaker 1: be back shortly. Brought to you by Bank of America,
Speaker 1: Mary Lynch seeing what others have seen, but uncovering what
Speaker 1: others may not. Global Research that helps you Harness disruption
Speaker 1: voted top global research from five years running. Mary Lynch, Pierce,
Speaker 1: Venner and Smith Incorporated. All Right, welcome back. So let's
Speaker 1: talk a little bit more about the economic issues around
Speaker 1: the job market. Uh. You know, obviously you had one
Speaker 1: experience carry at at a facility and upstate New York. Uh.
Speaker 1: But you know they're with with two million people in
Speaker 1: prison nationwide, uh, and many more people with a criminal record. Um.
Speaker 1: What percentage of people would you actually say are are employable?
Speaker 1: And should employers be more open to people who are
Speaker 1: desperately trying to get back in the world. It's really
Speaker 1: hard to say, Uh, what what percentage of people getting
Speaker 1: out are employable? You know, everyone comes out with a
Speaker 1: different skill set and you know, a different mindset is
Speaker 1: to whether they're interested in being rehabilitated. But I think generally,
Speaker 1: if people are in a position where they're making the
Speaker 1: effort to look for employment. That's probably would indicator that
Speaker 1: they're interested in some amount of rehabilitation. I mean, obviously
Speaker 1: employers are going to take into consideration different things like
Speaker 1: how long it's been since the crime is committed, and
Speaker 1: you know what the crime was. I think that employers, Uh,
Speaker 1: you know, she considered not dismissing felons as a whole,
Speaker 1: because obviously some are interested in rehabilitation and can make
Speaker 1: great employees. Let me ask you a question care about, um,
Speaker 1: kind of a little bit personal. When you were there,
Speaker 1: how many people did you see actively trying to take
Speaker 1: advantage of resources that were available to them to support
Speaker 1: rehabilitation or to support a more successful job search upon
Speaker 1: their release. Was that common? Well, there aren't really a
Speaker 1: whole lot of resources to do that behind bars. Um.
Speaker 1: You know, if you're incarcerated in a state prison, you're
Speaker 1: you know, you're you're far from home, so it's not
Speaker 1: like you can sort of start a job search or
Speaker 1: anything to to get on your feet from behind bars.
Speaker 1: There are limited college programs, and you know those are
Speaker 1: typically fo people are interested in those. Uh you know, so,
Speaker 1: I mean I know one woman who was very inspirational
Speaker 1: story to me. Anyways, she came in with no high
Speaker 1: school degree, and she got her j D. And then
Speaker 1: she started college classes and then by the time she
Speaker 1: was ready to be released, she she gotten a college
Speaker 1: degree behind bars. You know. So I think that's an
Speaker 1: example of someone who's obviously trying to make the most
Speaker 1: of the resources, but those resources are are very limited.
Speaker 1: So are they living in the sense that there are
Speaker 1: you know, just there's so few and the few offerings
Speaker 1: that are made get filled up really quickly, or they've
Speaker 1: limited in that like there aren't there isn't a lot
Speaker 1: of demand. Uh. There there's limited in that there's not
Speaker 1: a lot of resources and that they fill up quickly.
Speaker 1: There's also uh you know, there are are also vocational
Speaker 1: classes um which uh I think not as useful to
Speaker 1: as many people, but you know, people take them. There's
Speaker 1: g D classes. People take those. Uh. But you know,
Speaker 1: what what people do to build their time in prison
Speaker 1: doesn't always translate to what's going to happen on the outside. Uh.
Speaker 1: So that can be you know, that can be problematic.
Speaker 1: But people that have completed some college education in prison
Speaker 1: have a lower cidivism rate than those that haven't. Let
Speaker 1: me ask you about the national landscape for prison reform
Speaker 1: or sentencing reform. Uh. You know, we've the country as
Speaker 1: elected Donald Trump as president, Republicans both houses of Congress.
Speaker 1: Trump's platform was was largely lauren order. He supports prison privatization,
Speaker 1: doesn't want to restore voting rights to uh to ex felons.
Speaker 1: At the same time, there is kind of this bipartisan
Speaker 1: sense that, you know, some of the sentencing laws were
Speaker 1: too strict. People are getting too long sentences for things
Speaker 1: like drug possession, obviously, and that you know that that
Speaker 1: benefits you with the sensing laws being changed just before, Um,
Speaker 1: I think you you went to prison. What do you
Speaker 1: make of the landscape on these issues right now? Um,
Speaker 1: what do you think is going to happen? Well, I
Speaker 1: think that there has been strong bipartisan support for change
Speaker 1: for a number of years now, and I don't think
Speaker 1: that a Trump presidency would unilaterally change that. And just um,
Speaker 1: you know, one more personal question, how have you been
Speaker 1: able to stay clean all these years? Kerry? Uh? For me,
Speaker 1: that was a lot about finding something else to fill
Speaker 1: the spot in my life that Heroin took up. Uh,
Speaker 1: and for me that's been UH. Journalism has you know,
Speaker 1: has been, uh, something I could really throw myself into.
Speaker 1: And I think that for a lot of people who
Speaker 1: stay clean, it's about finding something else to to fill
Speaker 1: that spot, to help you become a different person than
Speaker 1: the person that you were back then. Well, let's let's
Speaker 1: come back to the you know, the prison population, the
Speaker 1: prospects for economic growth. You have this tight job market
Speaker 1: these days, they're they're employers who complain that they can't
Speaker 1: find workers. You know, we we've been talking about how
Speaker 1: you know, maybe maybe employers are too strict with not
Speaker 1: giving felon ex felons a look in their job applications. Uh.
Speaker 1: Donald Trump says he wants to put million people back
Speaker 1: to work and double the rate of growth. Is it
Speaker 1: possible to do that, you think without turning to uh,
Speaker 1: people who are who are out of prison for for
Speaker 1: criminal convictions. Carry. Well, I'm not an econmist so I'm
Speaker 1: probably not that qualified to answer that question. But I
Speaker 1: think anyone can say that it's easier to make that
Speaker 1: a possibility if felons are more readily included in the
Speaker 1: job market. Let me ask you a question, carry personally,
Speaker 1: just kind of like adding a little bit of color
Speaker 1: to this, did you see people that you knew while
Speaker 1: you were in prison struggle to find jobs, even though
Speaker 1: you know, knowing them personally, they were perfectly capable. Yes, Um,
Speaker 1: there's there's been I I see you know, on my
Speaker 1: Facebook speed I have, uh, you know, I keep in
Speaker 1: touch with a lot of people, and I do see
Speaker 1: a lot of them struggling to find employment. Uh. And
Speaker 1: and I think that makes it hard to stay on
Speaker 1: the right track. If if that's uh, it's that's a
Speaker 1: big stumbling block. I see that there are certain fields
Speaker 1: in which people seem to have more luck. Uh. Seems
Speaker 1: that a lot of people that are doing well have
Speaker 1: gone into advocacy and non profit work, and that seems
Speaker 1: to be a feel that is currently relatively open minded
Speaker 1: to hiring people with a criminal background. But some people
Speaker 1: that have black hounds in other fields, it's it's much
Speaker 1: more difficult. All right, Well, Kerry, let's leave it there.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining us. This has been
Speaker 1: a really fascinating discussion. And uh, you know, I'm personally
Speaker 1: gratified that that that journalism has that that that you're
Speaker 1: part of our profession and in that you know that
Speaker 1: has helped you stay clean. Like like you said, to
Speaker 1: give you that drive in your life. Well, thank you
Speaker 1: and thanks for having me on today. Al Right, Benchmark
Speaker 1: will be back next week and until then, you can
Speaker 1: find us on the Bloomberg Terminal and Bloomberg dot com,
Speaker 1: as well as on iTunes, pocket casts, and Stitcher. While
Speaker 1: you're there, take a minute to rate and review the
Speaker 1: show so more listeners can find us and let us
Speaker 1: know what you thought of the show. You can talk
Speaker 1: to us and follow us on Twitter at Scott Landman.
Speaker 1: You can find me a by Kate Smith, and you
Speaker 1: can also find our guest carry At at carry b
Speaker 1: l A. Thanks for listening, See you next time. Brought
Speaker 1: to you by Bank of America. Merrill Lynch Seeing what
Speaker 1: others have seen, but uncovering what others may not. Global
Speaker 1: Research that helps you Harness disruption voted top global research
Speaker 1: from five years running. Merrill Lynch, Pierce, Fenner and Smith
Speaker 1: Incorporated