1
00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:03,120
Speaker 1: Brought to you by Bank of America. Merrill Lynch Seeing

2
00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:05,600
Speaker 1: what others have seen, but uncovering what others may not.

3
00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,680
Speaker 1: Global Research that helps you harness disruption voted top Global

4
00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:13,000
Speaker 1: research from five years running. Merrill Lynch, Pierce, Fenner, and

5
00:00:13,080 --> 00:00:17,279
Speaker 1: Smith Incorporated. When I got out and I had access

6
00:00:17,320 --> 00:00:19,400
Speaker 1: to the Internet of the cannabis, tarted to realize that

7
00:00:19,400 --> 00:00:21,920
Speaker 1: there were all these other ways, like all the all

8
00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:25,680
Speaker 1: these other points at which race can play roles, such

9
00:00:25,720 --> 00:00:29,520
Speaker 1: as you know, rebounding from something like this. Um. You know,

10
00:00:29,560 --> 00:00:32,600
Speaker 1: there's there's some data I've read that that white people

11
00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:36,000
Speaker 1: with a record are more likely to get hired than

12
00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:39,160
Speaker 1: black people with that one, and you know that that's

13
00:00:39,240 --> 00:00:50,800
Speaker 1: kind of shocking. Hello, and welcome back to Bloomberg Benchmark

14
00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:54,720
Speaker 1: Show about the global economy. I'm Scott Landman, an economics

15
00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:57,360
Speaker 1: editor with Bloomberg News in Washington, and I'm Keith Smith,

16
00:00:57,400 --> 00:01:00,080
Speaker 1: an editor with Bloomberg here in New York. All right, well,

17
00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:03,160
Speaker 1: if you're looking for a break from this post election madness,

18
00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:06,360
Speaker 1: you've come to the right place. Today on Benchmark, we're

19
00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:09,800
Speaker 1: turning our attention to an often overlooked corner of the U.

20
00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:13,760
Speaker 1: S economy. Our prison population. So here are some numbers

21
00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:16,800
Speaker 1: that we found really interesting. The US accounts for one

22
00:01:16,840 --> 00:01:19,760
Speaker 1: fifth of the world's prisoners, even though the nation only

23
00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:23,800
Speaker 1: has of the world's population. That's right, the US has

24
00:01:23,920 --> 00:01:27,679
Speaker 1: two point two million people in prison, and that's more

25
00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:30,480
Speaker 1: people than China actually has in prison, and China has

26
00:01:30,480 --> 00:01:33,640
Speaker 1: a population that's four times bigger than the United States.

27
00:01:33,959 --> 00:01:37,360
Speaker 1: All told, the US imprisons almost one per cent of

28
00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:41,279
Speaker 1: its population. That excludes other forms of detention, but it's still,

29
00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:44,319
Speaker 1: you know, pretty high number. And it's actually the highest

30
00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:47,680
Speaker 1: proportion in the world when you look at the share

31
00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:50,880
Speaker 1: of the population that's in jail. So here a Bloomberg.

32
00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:54,320
Speaker 1: We obviously love superlatives. So hearing highest proportion, that got

33
00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:57,360
Speaker 1: us thinking two questions, are there too many people in jail?

34
00:01:57,520 --> 00:02:00,120
Speaker 1: And is that very fact? You know? The extension in

35
00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:02,000
Speaker 1: that we make it tough for x cons to get

36
00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:05,800
Speaker 1: back to jobs, is holding back economic growth? Well, joining

37
00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:07,840
Speaker 1: us today to explore the issue as a woman in

38
00:02:07,880 --> 00:02:11,519
Speaker 1: her early thirties who was intimately familiar with what it's

39
00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:13,560
Speaker 1: like to go to prison and what it's like to

40
00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:18,800
Speaker 1: rejoin the workforce afterwards. Carry Blakinger was a senior at Cornell,

41
00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:22,040
Speaker 1: the Ivy League university in upstate New York, when she

42
00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:26,360
Speaker 1: was busted six years ago for heroin possession six ounces

43
00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:30,120
Speaker 1: to be precise. Kerry pleaded guilty to criminal possession of

44
00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:34,120
Speaker 1: a controlled substance Class B felony and served twenty one

45
00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:36,320
Speaker 1: months in prison out of a two and a half

46
00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:39,480
Speaker 1: year sentence. She did most of her time at Albion,

47
00:02:39,760 --> 00:02:43,520
Speaker 1: a medium security facility for women in upstate New York.

48
00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:48,440
Speaker 1: Following her release in September, Carry managed to get reinstated

49
00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:52,280
Speaker 1: at Cornell, graduated with a degree in English in December,

50
00:02:53,560 --> 00:02:56,360
Speaker 1: and got herself a job at the Ithaca Times. She

51
00:02:56,560 --> 00:02:58,640
Speaker 1: since moved on to the New York Daily News and

52
00:02:58,720 --> 00:03:02,240
Speaker 1: more recently moved to Texas, where she's now working as

53
00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:05,720
Speaker 1: a general assignment reporter at the Houston Chronicle. She's on

54
00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:08,080
Speaker 1: the phone with us now from Houston. Carry, thank you

55
00:03:08,160 --> 00:03:12,720
Speaker 1: so much for joining us today. Hi, thanks for having me. Carry.

56
00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:15,239
Speaker 1: Let's get one thing out of the way, something you've

57
00:03:15,280 --> 00:03:19,680
Speaker 1: been open about discussing. You're white. How much did your

58
00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:22,639
Speaker 1: race play in your ability to rebound from prison, earn

59
00:03:22,720 --> 00:03:25,440
Speaker 1: your degree and get a job in the industry of

60
00:03:25,520 --> 00:03:30,320
Speaker 1: your choosing? Well, you know, I think that, Uh it

61
00:03:30,440 --> 00:03:33,799
Speaker 1: obviously it played a huge role, but uh, it's really

62
00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:37,080
Speaker 1: difficult to point to an exact moment and say, oh,

63
00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:41,000
Speaker 1: this happened because I was white. Uh. It's something that

64
00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:44,480
Speaker 1: I sort of gradually realized in looking at data that

65
00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:48,800
Speaker 1: there are um a lot of indications that statistically this

66
00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:54,440
Speaker 1: rebound would have been less likely if I were a minority. Um.

67
00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:58,520
Speaker 1: I think that before going to prison, I hadn't really

68
00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:02,360
Speaker 1: thought a lot about the racial disparities in the criminal

69
00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:06,160
Speaker 1: justice system. Like I sort of I knew that they existed,

70
00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:09,119
Speaker 1: as I think everyone does, but it didn't really hit

71
00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:13,840
Speaker 1: home until I was actually seen it in front of me. Uh.

72
00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:17,599
Speaker 1: And and even then it was not immediately apparent because

73
00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:20,000
Speaker 1: in the county that I got arrested in, it's so

74
00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:24,440
Speaker 1: over overwhelmingly white that the county jail is also overwhelmingly white.

75
00:04:24,839 --> 00:04:27,440
Speaker 1: It's uh. In Thompton County, which is where it is,

76
00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:32,719
Speaker 1: the county jail is somewhere around twentysomething present black, which

77
00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:36,760
Speaker 1: is much lower than most other incarcerated populations. But that's

78
00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:41,320
Speaker 1: because the town is only about five percent block. So

79
00:04:41,640 --> 00:04:45,080
Speaker 1: it wasn't until I went to state prison. Um after

80
00:04:45,160 --> 00:04:50,200
Speaker 1: about ten months that I that I was seeing, you know,

81
00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:55,120
Speaker 1: around half of the population was black, and um, you know,

82
00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:58,640
Speaker 1: and that is that makes it much more obvious. That

83
00:04:58,720 --> 00:05:04,120
Speaker 1: sort of drives home these statistics that you might read about, um,

84
00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:07,480
Speaker 1: you know, I mean when you hear people's stories and

85
00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:12,000
Speaker 1: you realize why they're there and the differences in what

86
00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:16,480
Speaker 1: sort of crimes lands people in prison. So you know

87
00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:19,800
Speaker 1: this this was sort of gradual realization for me. And

88
00:05:19,839 --> 00:05:23,800
Speaker 1: then when I got out, uh and I had access

89
00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:25,880
Speaker 1: to the internet the cannon, I started to realize that

90
00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:28,400
Speaker 1: there were all these other ways, like all the all

91
00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:32,160
Speaker 1: these other points at which race can play roles, such

92
00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:36,000
Speaker 1: as you know, rebounding from something like this. Um, you know,

93
00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:39,480
Speaker 1: there's there's some data I've read that, uh that white

94
00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:42,960
Speaker 1: people with a record are more likely to get hired

95
00:05:43,040 --> 00:05:46,040
Speaker 1: than black people with that one, and you know that

96
00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:48,760
Speaker 1: that's kind of shocking. I certainly can't look back at

97
00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:51,360
Speaker 1: anyone's job and say, oh, I I would not have

98
00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:54,280
Speaker 1: gotten hired if I were a minority in this job.

99
00:05:54,680 --> 00:05:58,480
Speaker 1: But I know that overall, statistically it's true. And I

100
00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:01,640
Speaker 1: think that that's something that sometimes people struggle with when they,

101
00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:04,880
Speaker 1: you know, they'll ask me, well, at what point did

102
00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:06,839
Speaker 1: this play a role? And I sort of can't point

103
00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:09,400
Speaker 1: to any one thing and say definitively race with the

104
00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:12,240
Speaker 1: factor here, but I can say that, you know, there's

105
00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:14,520
Speaker 1: all these different points at which is really likely that

106
00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:17,280
Speaker 1: it played a role, and it's you know, statistically looking

107
00:06:17,320 --> 00:06:20,080
Speaker 1: at the data, is it looks like it's likely played

108
00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:23,160
Speaker 1: a role. If I can jump in, Um, one thing,

109
00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:25,240
Speaker 1: I you know, kind of as you're talking, I thought

110
00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:27,760
Speaker 1: was a little bit interesting. So obviously you know the

111
00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:30,120
Speaker 1: word fell in. You know, it carries a start, as

112
00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:32,120
Speaker 1: you know, a certain stigma, but in reality it's an

113
00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:35,680
Speaker 1: umbrella term for you know, a host of different things,

114
00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:38,560
Speaker 1: you know, ranging from you know, kind of what happened

115
00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:40,160
Speaker 1: with you, but then you know some much much more

116
00:06:40,240 --> 00:06:44,280
Speaker 1: like violent crimes. Um, why does society attach so much

117
00:06:44,320 --> 00:06:46,600
Speaker 1: stigma to felons given that you know kind of the

118
00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:48,520
Speaker 1: breadth of those crimes and some are just so much

119
00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:51,520
Speaker 1: worse than others. I mean, is this failure to properly

120
00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:55,840
Speaker 1: rehabilitate people holding back society and the economy. Well, to

121
00:06:55,920 --> 00:06:58,920
Speaker 1: answer your your first question, I think that, uh, one

122
00:06:58,960 --> 00:07:01,760
Speaker 1: of the reason people attached to speaking of sounds is

123
00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:05,120
Speaker 1: because a lot of people think of silence as rapists

124
00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:07,200
Speaker 1: and murderers, and it's actually, you know, as you said,

125
00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:09,160
Speaker 1: a much broader class. I mean, this can include drunk

126
00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:12,760
Speaker 1: driving charges, even in situations where no one's actually been injured. UM.

127
00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:16,480
Speaker 1: Not to minimize the severity of drunk driving, but I'm

128
00:07:16,520 --> 00:07:18,320
Speaker 1: just saying I think that's not what a lot of

129
00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:21,960
Speaker 1: people think of when they think of a felon UM.

130
00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:24,960
Speaker 1: So I think that that's part of the reason why

131
00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:28,200
Speaker 1: there's this stigma, because people sort of just assume this

132
00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:31,880
Speaker 1: means murderers and rapists, you know, and and also you know,

133
00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:35,600
Speaker 1: Sony's don't go away in most states. In some states

134
00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:39,120
Speaker 1: there are options to ex fund or steal your record. UM.

135
00:07:39,320 --> 00:07:42,200
Speaker 1: But something that's twenty years old can have just as

136
00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:44,480
Speaker 1: much impact on your ability to get a job as

137
00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:46,680
Speaker 1: something that's five years old. It really just depends on

138
00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:50,120
Speaker 1: how employers ask, how they ask about it, and how

139
00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:53,680
Speaker 1: they choose to take time to account. If I can

140
00:07:53,760 --> 00:07:56,400
Speaker 1: ask you a personal question, Carrie, when you were looking

141
00:07:56,520 --> 00:08:00,560
Speaker 1: at jobs after um, your experience in prison, how did

142
00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:04,400
Speaker 1: you handle that question? So, my my first job at

143
00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:08,040
Speaker 1: the at the Times, it was not a question. Everything

144
00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:10,120
Speaker 1: you knew. It was a small town like there's no

145
00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:15,200
Speaker 1: chance i'd he was unaware. Um, so, uh, you know,

146
00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:18,520
Speaker 1: it's it's a small, very liberal town, and um, you

147
00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:21,520
Speaker 1: know this was just sort of h it was a

148
00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:25,280
Speaker 1: nice little homie paper and a nice community, so it

149
00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:29,440
Speaker 1: was not as likely to affect me there in that job. Okay,

150
00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:31,720
Speaker 1: but that's then moving up to the other one the

151
00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:36,400
Speaker 1: other places, right, So since then, Um, I've I've found that,

152
00:08:36,800 --> 00:08:38,719
Speaker 1: you know, I've applied for a number of jobs, and

153
00:08:38,920 --> 00:08:42,120
Speaker 1: I've only had one job that asked about it and

154
00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:44,480
Speaker 1: actually called me back. Every other time that I've had

155
00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:47,680
Speaker 1: to check the box, uh, I've never gotten a callback.

156
00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:51,280
Speaker 1: You know, I've never heard anything. Um, although I've I've

157
00:08:51,320 --> 00:08:53,719
Speaker 1: gotten a you know, a decent call back right on

158
00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:55,640
Speaker 1: jobs that I did not have to check the box.

159
00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:58,920
Speaker 1: So that's not a definitive study or any conclusion, but

160
00:08:59,040 --> 00:09:01,439
Speaker 1: you know it, and totally it does. It has seemed

161
00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:04,000
Speaker 1: to make a difference in my personal experience of employment.

162
00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:06,679
Speaker 1: My current job is the only one that I've ever

163
00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:09,040
Speaker 1: checked off the box floor and not only gotten a

164
00:09:09,080 --> 00:09:11,560
Speaker 1: call back, but then actually got hired. Um. The Daily

165
00:09:11,640 --> 00:09:14,640
Speaker 1: News did not ask any climes did not ask, although

166
00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:18,240
Speaker 1: I should have assumed that in journalism, employers would be

167
00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:20,880
Speaker 1: likely to google you, so I have to do that

168
00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:25,679
Speaker 1: in my case. People know. But I do think that when,

169
00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:29,079
Speaker 1: when and whether they ask uh is sort of indicative

170
00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:33,480
Speaker 1: of how they're they're going to handle the answer. Right now.

171
00:09:33,559 --> 00:09:35,880
Speaker 1: And we talk about how many people are in prison

172
00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:39,839
Speaker 1: in this country, thinking about your own experience, how many

173
00:09:39,880 --> 00:09:42,640
Speaker 1: of the people you saw during your time in prison

174
00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:45,160
Speaker 1: should not have been there in your opinion, or we're

175
00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:50,040
Speaker 1: serving too long relative to the crimes they committed. I mean,

176
00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:52,880
Speaker 1: I think, I think that's a really hard question to answer.

177
00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:56,559
Speaker 1: But uh, but one thing that I did notice is

178
00:09:56,640 --> 00:10:00,160
Speaker 1: that I feel like, uh, you know, in a lot

179
00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:04,800
Speaker 1: of cases, you know, well, in almost all cases, prison

180
00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:09,079
Speaker 1: did not help. It's not like, uh, somebody went to

181
00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:13,360
Speaker 1: prison and came out and was better able to address life,

182
00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:17,040
Speaker 1: Like That's that's pretty rare that someone comes out and

183
00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:20,920
Speaker 1: does better after prison than they did before. So, uh

184
00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:24,600
Speaker 1: So in that sense, you know, almost you know, almost

185
00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:27,760
Speaker 1: no one should should be there if that's the measure.

186
00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:31,240
Speaker 1: If the goal is rehabilitation. Of course, the goal is

187
00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:34,960
Speaker 1: not solely rehabilitation. Part of the goal of prison is punishment,

188
00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:37,280
Speaker 1: so you know, that's the more subjective thing I probably

189
00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:40,360
Speaker 1: can't really speak to. All Right, Well, we're gonna take

190
00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:43,200
Speaker 1: a break for a word from our sponsor and we'll

191
00:10:43,240 --> 00:10:55,920
Speaker 1: be back shortly. Brought to you by Bank of America,

192
00:10:56,040 --> 00:10:59,040
Speaker 1: Mary Lynch seeing what others have seen, but uncovering what

193
00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:02,400
Speaker 1: others may not. Global Research that helps you Harness disruption

194
00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:06,800
Speaker 1: voted top global research from five years running. Mary Lynch, Pierce,

195
00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:19,240
Speaker 1: Venner and Smith Incorporated. All Right, welcome back. So let's

196
00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:22,160
Speaker 1: talk a little bit more about the economic issues around

197
00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:25,079
Speaker 1: the job market. Uh. You know, obviously you had one

198
00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:30,320
Speaker 1: experience carry at at a facility and upstate New York. Uh.

199
00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:33,280
Speaker 1: But you know they're with with two million people in

200
00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:38,280
Speaker 1: prison nationwide, uh, and many more people with a criminal record. Um.

201
00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:43,800
Speaker 1: What percentage of people would you actually say are are employable?

202
00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:48,160
Speaker 1: And should employers be more open to people who are

203
00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:52,600
Speaker 1: desperately trying to get back in the world. It's really

204
00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:56,040
Speaker 1: hard to say, Uh, what what percentage of people getting

205
00:11:56,080 --> 00:11:58,199
Speaker 1: out are employable? You know, everyone comes out with a

206
00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:01,880
Speaker 1: different skill set and you know, a different mindset is

207
00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:07,679
Speaker 1: to whether they're interested in being rehabilitated. But I think generally,

208
00:12:07,760 --> 00:12:10,959
Speaker 1: if people are in a position where they're making the

209
00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:15,240
Speaker 1: effort to look for employment. That's probably would indicator that

210
00:12:15,400 --> 00:12:20,520
Speaker 1: they're interested in some amount of rehabilitation. I mean, obviously

211
00:12:20,559 --> 00:12:23,439
Speaker 1: employers are going to take into consideration different things like

212
00:12:23,880 --> 00:12:26,760
Speaker 1: how long it's been since the crime is committed, and

213
00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:31,679
Speaker 1: you know what the crime was. I think that employers, Uh,

214
00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:35,800
Speaker 1: you know, she considered not dismissing felons as a whole,

215
00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:41,440
Speaker 1: because obviously some are interested in rehabilitation and can make

216
00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:44,400
Speaker 1: great employees. Let me ask you a question care about, um,

217
00:12:44,679 --> 00:12:47,760
Speaker 1: kind of a little bit personal. When you were there,

218
00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:51,439
Speaker 1: how many people did you see actively trying to take

219
00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:54,600
Speaker 1: advantage of resources that were available to them to support

220
00:12:54,679 --> 00:12:59,520
Speaker 1: rehabilitation or to support a more successful job search upon

221
00:12:59,559 --> 00:13:03,599
Speaker 1: their release. Was that common? Well, there aren't really a

222
00:13:03,640 --> 00:13:06,720
Speaker 1: whole lot of resources to do that behind bars. Um.

223
00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:09,880
Speaker 1: You know, if you're incarcerated in a state prison, you're

224
00:13:10,480 --> 00:13:12,959
Speaker 1: you know, you're you're far from home, so it's not

225
00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:15,480
Speaker 1: like you can sort of start a job search or

226
00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:19,480
Speaker 1: anything to to get on your feet from behind bars.

227
00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:23,600
Speaker 1: There are limited college programs, and you know those are

228
00:13:23,679 --> 00:13:28,040
Speaker 1: typically fo people are interested in those. Uh you know, so,

229
00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:31,679
Speaker 1: I mean I know one woman who was very inspirational

230
00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:35,600
Speaker 1: story to me. Anyways, she came in with no high

231
00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:38,440
Speaker 1: school degree, and she got her j D. And then

232
00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:41,559
Speaker 1: she started college classes and then by the time she

233
00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:44,720
Speaker 1: was ready to be released, she she gotten a college

234
00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:48,000
Speaker 1: degree behind bars. You know. So I think that's an

235
00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:49,920
Speaker 1: example of someone who's obviously trying to make the most

236
00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:52,600
Speaker 1: of the resources, but those resources are are very limited.

237
00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:55,720
Speaker 1: So are they living in the sense that there are

238
00:13:56,200 --> 00:13:59,120
Speaker 1: you know, just there's so few and the few offerings

239
00:13:59,200 --> 00:14:01,440
Speaker 1: that are made get filled up really quickly, or they've

240
00:14:01,559 --> 00:14:04,240
Speaker 1: limited in that like there aren't there isn't a lot

241
00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:09,240
Speaker 1: of demand. Uh. There there's limited in that there's not

242
00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:11,560
Speaker 1: a lot of resources and that they fill up quickly.

243
00:14:11,679 --> 00:14:15,120
Speaker 1: There's also uh you know, there are are also vocational

244
00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:19,640
Speaker 1: classes um which uh I think not as useful to

245
00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:21,920
Speaker 1: as many people, but you know, people take them. There's

246
00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:25,320
Speaker 1: g D classes. People take those. Uh. But you know,

247
00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:28,040
Speaker 1: what what people do to build their time in prison

248
00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:33,200
Speaker 1: doesn't always translate to what's going to happen on the outside. Uh.

249
00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:36,160
Speaker 1: So that can be you know, that can be problematic.

250
00:14:36,280 --> 00:14:40,680
Speaker 1: But people that have completed some college education in prison

251
00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:44,280
Speaker 1: have a lower cidivism rate than those that haven't. Let

252
00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:48,800
Speaker 1: me ask you about the national landscape for prison reform

253
00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:52,120
Speaker 1: or sentencing reform. Uh. You know, we've the country as

254
00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:56,960
Speaker 1: elected Donald Trump as president, Republicans both houses of Congress.

255
00:14:57,240 --> 00:15:02,320
Speaker 1: Trump's platform was was largely lauren order. He supports prison privatization,

256
00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:06,480
Speaker 1: doesn't want to restore voting rights to uh to ex felons.

257
00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:10,720
Speaker 1: At the same time, there is kind of this bipartisan

258
00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:14,720
Speaker 1: sense that, you know, some of the sentencing laws were

259
00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:17,480
Speaker 1: too strict. People are getting too long sentences for things

260
00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:20,120
Speaker 1: like drug possession, obviously, and that you know that that

261
00:15:20,240 --> 00:15:24,400
Speaker 1: benefits you with the sensing laws being changed just before, Um,

262
00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:27,440
Speaker 1: I think you you went to prison. What do you

263
00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:30,640
Speaker 1: make of the landscape on these issues right now? Um,

264
00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:33,680
Speaker 1: what do you think is going to happen? Well, I

265
00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:37,720
Speaker 1: think that there has been strong bipartisan support for change

266
00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:41,120
Speaker 1: for a number of years now, and I don't think

267
00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:46,840
Speaker 1: that a Trump presidency would unilaterally change that. And just um,

268
00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:51,720
Speaker 1: you know, one more personal question, how have you been

269
00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:56,920
Speaker 1: able to stay clean all these years? Kerry? Uh? For me,

270
00:15:57,160 --> 00:16:00,760
Speaker 1: that was a lot about finding something else to fill

271
00:16:00,880 --> 00:16:04,320
Speaker 1: the spot in my life that Heroin took up. Uh,

272
00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:07,720
Speaker 1: and for me that's been UH. Journalism has you know,

273
00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:11,080
Speaker 1: has been, uh, something I could really throw myself into.

274
00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:15,000
Speaker 1: And I think that for a lot of people who

275
00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:19,120
Speaker 1: stay clean, it's about finding something else to to fill

276
00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:21,720
Speaker 1: that spot, to help you become a different person than

277
00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:24,800
Speaker 1: the person that you were back then. Well, let's let's

278
00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:28,600
Speaker 1: come back to the you know, the prison population, the

279
00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:32,920
Speaker 1: prospects for economic growth. You have this tight job market

280
00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:35,920
Speaker 1: these days, they're they're employers who complain that they can't

281
00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:38,800
Speaker 1: find workers. You know, we we've been talking about how

282
00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:42,000
Speaker 1: you know, maybe maybe employers are too strict with not

283
00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:46,360
Speaker 1: giving felon ex felons a look in their job applications. Uh.

284
00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:49,200
Speaker 1: Donald Trump says he wants to put million people back

285
00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:51,840
Speaker 1: to work and double the rate of growth. Is it

286
00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:55,800
Speaker 1: possible to do that, you think without turning to uh,

287
00:16:56,160 --> 00:16:58,960
Speaker 1: people who are who are out of prison for for

288
00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:04,600
Speaker 1: criminal convictions. Carry. Well, I'm not an econmist so I'm

289
00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:07,359
Speaker 1: probably not that qualified to answer that question. But I

290
00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:09,960
Speaker 1: think anyone can say that it's easier to make that

291
00:17:10,080 --> 00:17:13,240
Speaker 1: a possibility if felons are more readily included in the

292
00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:16,280
Speaker 1: job market. Let me ask you a question, carry personally,

293
00:17:16,359 --> 00:17:18,120
Speaker 1: just kind of like adding a little bit of color

294
00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:21,600
Speaker 1: to this, did you see people that you knew while

295
00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:23,960
Speaker 1: you were in prison struggle to find jobs, even though

296
00:17:24,359 --> 00:17:28,000
Speaker 1: you know, knowing them personally, they were perfectly capable. Yes, Um,

297
00:17:28,320 --> 00:17:31,320
Speaker 1: there's there's been I I see you know, on my

298
00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:33,920
Speaker 1: Facebook speed I have, uh, you know, I keep in

299
00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:36,760
Speaker 1: touch with a lot of people, and I do see

300
00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:41,200
Speaker 1: a lot of them struggling to find employment. Uh. And

301
00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:43,520
Speaker 1: and I think that makes it hard to stay on

302
00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:47,159
Speaker 1: the right track. If if that's uh, it's that's a

303
00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:51,560
Speaker 1: big stumbling block. I see that there are certain fields

304
00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:55,520
Speaker 1: in which people seem to have more luck. Uh. Seems

305
00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:57,000
Speaker 1: that a lot of people that are doing well have

306
00:17:57,160 --> 00:18:01,720
Speaker 1: gone into advocacy and non profit work, and that seems

307
00:18:01,720 --> 00:18:05,919
Speaker 1: to be a feel that is currently relatively open minded

308
00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:09,879
Speaker 1: to hiring people with a criminal background. But some people

309
00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:12,840
Speaker 1: that have black hounds in other fields, it's it's much

310
00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:16,520
Speaker 1: more difficult. All right, Well, Kerry, let's leave it there.

311
00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:19,000
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining us. This has been

312
00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:23,320
Speaker 1: a really fascinating discussion. And uh, you know, I'm personally

313
00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:27,760
Speaker 1: gratified that that that journalism has that that that you're

314
00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:30,639
Speaker 1: part of our profession and in that you know that

315
00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:33,639
Speaker 1: has helped you stay clean. Like like you said, to

316
00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:37,320
Speaker 1: give you that drive in your life. Well, thank you

317
00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:40,280
Speaker 1: and thanks for having me on today. Al Right, Benchmark

318
00:18:40,359 --> 00:18:42,359
Speaker 1: will be back next week and until then, you can

319
00:18:42,440 --> 00:18:45,200
Speaker 1: find us on the Bloomberg Terminal and Bloomberg dot com,

320
00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:48,800
Speaker 1: as well as on iTunes, pocket casts, and Stitcher. While

321
00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:50,760
Speaker 1: you're there, take a minute to rate and review the

322
00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:53,480
Speaker 1: show so more listeners can find us and let us

323
00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:55,120
Speaker 1: know what you thought of the show. You can talk

324
00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:57,920
Speaker 1: to us and follow us on Twitter at Scott Landman.

325
00:18:58,040 --> 00:19:01,040
Speaker 1: You can find me a by Kate Smith, and you

326
00:19:01,119 --> 00:19:04,159
Speaker 1: can also find our guest carry At at carry b

327
00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:18,800
Speaker 1: l A. Thanks for listening, See you next time. Brought

328
00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:21,520
Speaker 1: to you by Bank of America. Merrill Lynch Seeing what

329
00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:24,719
Speaker 1: others have seen, but uncovering what others may not. Global

330
00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:28,399
Speaker 1: Research that helps you Harness disruption voted top global research

331
00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:31,680
Speaker 1: from five years running. Merrill Lynch, Pierce, Fenner and Smith

332
00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:32,440
Speaker 1: Incorporated