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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, Radio News.

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Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to another episode of the All Thoughts podcast.

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Speaker 3: I'm Tracy Alloway and I'm Joe Wisenthal.

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Speaker 2: Joe, I heard, I might have heard, you know, just

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Speaker 2: a little bit, that you went to China for the

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Speaker 2: first time.

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Speaker 3: I haven't been that obnoxious about it. I no, Okay,

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Speaker 3: Can I just say one thing I didn't like do

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Speaker 3: a I've posted about it, I've talked about it. I have.

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Speaker 3: I did not come home and do like a twenty

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Speaker 3: tweet thread about like China's like future in the world,

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Speaker 3: which I considered myself to be a heroic heroic active restraint.

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Speaker 2: So you're not a China expert after one day.

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Speaker 3: I fully admit that I'm not a China hand after

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Speaker 3: one day. And I will also say I can't do

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Speaker 3: that anyway because I got over the border on a

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Speaker 3: tourist visa.

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Speaker 2: So I'm not even you know, you know the China

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Speaker 2: the China expert pipeline.

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Speaker 3: Right, How does it work?

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Speaker 2: So you got to first of all, you have to

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Speaker 2: go to China and be an English teacher for a

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Speaker 2: few months, and then you have to move there and

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Speaker 2: become a China consultant, and then you have to start

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Speaker 2: a YouTube channel and start start calling yourself Joe Why

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Speaker 2: or Lao Wisenhall.

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Speaker 3: Someone said Joe Chandao would be a good China signification

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Speaker 3: of my name, which I thought was decent. You know

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Speaker 3: that actually almost happened to me. Well, there's a different

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Speaker 3: version of my life. So when I was in college

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Speaker 3: at University of Texas, I saw a poster on the campus.

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Speaker 3: Now this was Taiwan, but I would have learned the language.

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Speaker 3: It said, come be an English speaker in Taiwan. So

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Speaker 3: it's like I didn't have any plan for my life

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Speaker 3: or anything like that. And I called the number and

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Speaker 3: I didn't have a cell phone at the time because

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Speaker 3: we just so we just shared a house phone. And

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Speaker 3: I called the number and I left it and then

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Speaker 3: the person on the other side called back. But one

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Speaker 3: of my roommates answered the call and ended up getting

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Speaker 3: the job and going to Taiwan. And I always think

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Speaker 3: about that version of my life where I wouldn't be

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Speaker 3: doing odd laws because I was home and answered that call.

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Speaker 3: And would I be one of those people that, like

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Speaker 3: you know, helped American businesses source parts in southern China.

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Speaker 2: What a segue Joe.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well that's it. You know, you show. You reminded

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Speaker 3: me that there is this one of the various versions

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Speaker 3: of my life that that was actually kind of one

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Speaker 3: of them.

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Speaker 2: All Right, Well, I'm sure you have your own impressions

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Speaker 2: of China for the.

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Speaker 3: First time based on twenty four hours.

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Speaker 2: Based on twenty four hours. I know you do, because

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Speaker 2: you did tweet about it a lot. But there's someone

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Speaker 2: else we talked to when we want to get general

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Speaker 2: China impressions. Take the temperature on the Vibes in China,

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Speaker 2: I guess, and that is the one and only Dan Wong.

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Speaker 2: He's been on the show a number of times before.

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Speaker 2: He is, of course the author of Breakneck China's Quest

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Speaker 2: to Engineer the Future, also a fellow at Stanford's Hoover Institution.

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Speaker 2: So Dan, thank you so much for coming back on

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Speaker 2: all the Tracy.

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Speaker 4: It's great to be back home.

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Speaker 3: Oh, thank you.

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Speaker 2: So Vibes in China, Well, first of all, was this

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Speaker 2: her first time going back in a couple of years.

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Speaker 4: It's sort of been my first time going back.

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Speaker 2: So give us the timeline of when you left and

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Speaker 2: I left.

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Speaker 4: At the start of twenty twenty three, right after the

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Speaker 4: total collapse of zero COVID, and then I was back

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Speaker 4: in Yun nine just finishing my book writing in the

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Speaker 4: mountains in the south of the province, so nice. And

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Speaker 4: then this time I spent about a month in China,

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Speaker 4: between Shanghai for two weeks and then Yun nine for

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Speaker 4: two more weeks. And I think the big news when

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Speaker 4: I was in China was there were two big things

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Speaker 4: happening in New York. One was that the Nicks want

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Speaker 4: some sort of sports ball and.

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Speaker 2: Then Joe a little bit about just a little yeah.

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Speaker 4: And then Joe Wison thought I went to Shinjin. That

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Speaker 4: was big news on Twitter that day.

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Speaker 3: I watched the Knicks game from a rooftop bar in Shenzhen.

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Speaker 3: One the game where they clinched it Game five, which

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Speaker 3: is watch just to give us your back. I mean,

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Speaker 3: we've talkedalked about your book and stuff like that. You're Canadian, right, yes,

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Speaker 3: so that's why the red and the red shirt. Today

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Speaker 3: you're wearing maple leaf colors to sort of represent your

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Speaker 3: Canadian heritage on the podcast.

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Speaker 4: Absolutely, okay, I.

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Speaker 3: Just wanted to establish that where did you go on?

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Speaker 3: You know, I'm not no expert because I only spent

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Speaker 3: twenty four hours in one of the world the country's

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Speaker 3: most advanced cities. But where were you?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, well, I've lived in the three major big zones

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Speaker 4: of China. It's spent two years living in Hong Kong,

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Speaker 4: where I played board games with this new entrant to

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Speaker 4: Hong Kong, namely Tracy Alloway. Remember all of these board

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Speaker 4: games that we used to play.

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Speaker 2: That was so much fun.

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Speaker 4: We were in all of these cafes. And I spent

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Speaker 4: two years living in Hong Kong, and I thought, well,

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Speaker 4: this really isn't enough real China, and so then I

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Speaker 4: moved to Beijing for two years. Then I decided that

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Speaker 4: was way too much real China, and then I decided

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Speaker 4: I should have moved to Shanghai.

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Speaker 3: Can I just ask a quick question, I don't know

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Speaker 3: anything about how like Chinese immigration policy or visa policy works.

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Speaker 3: As someone who is ethnically Chinese but a Canadian passport holder,

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Speaker 3: what is required to establish semi residency either on like

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Speaker 3: a part full time or sort of part time work

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Speaker 3: or whatever. How do you what are there any restrictions?

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Speaker 3: How easy is that process?

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Speaker 4: If you're a Chinese of Chinese heritage, it's somewhat easier

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Speaker 4: to visit China. There are these specific visa categories, namely

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Speaker 4: family visit, which gets you multiple entry, probably for ten years.

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Speaker 4: That makes it really easy for someone like me to

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Speaker 4: visit Grandma. But I don't think for any other Chinese

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Speaker 4: heritage people becomes much easier. They're not necessarily favored to

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Speaker 4: actually live in China. And when I was living, when

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Speaker 4: I was visiting China at this time, what was really

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Speaker 4: striking was how many more Russians and Russian you hear

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Speaker 4: in the streets of Shanghai. You see more Arab folks

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Speaker 4: walking around presumably doing business deals, and how few Americans

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Speaker 4: you hear on the streets as well. And so you know,

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Speaker 4: this has been like a really start shift in the

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Speaker 4: composition of the foreign people there. And then there's also

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Speaker 4: just been a stunning collapse in immigration to China. And

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Speaker 4: so this Irish guy, Sam en Wright, came up with

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Speaker 4: this figure to establish that China and Ireland. China has

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Speaker 4: slightly fewer immigrants than Ireland does. So Ireland, a country

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Speaker 4: of six million people, has about one million immigrants. China,

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Speaker 4: one point four billion, has about one million immigrants. And

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Speaker 4: so these are the sort of stunning things where it

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Speaker 4: takes a few more Joe Wisenthal's for visiting to prop

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Speaker 4: up the foreign market there.

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Speaker 2: Lou Wisenthal, we're calling him.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, sounds good.

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Speaker 2: Why did you decide to go to Shanghai and not Beijing?

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Speaker 2: And how much should I read into that as like

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Speaker 2: a shift in the center of power within China or

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Speaker 2: like more focus on tech and finance.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I love Shanghai. Shanghai is I think one of

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Speaker 4: the great cities of the world, and Beijing is not.

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Speaker 4: Beijing is not I really like Beijing.

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Speaker 2: It has that sort of like northern frontier feel. I

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Speaker 2: really enjoy it. But I've been to Shanghai too, and

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Speaker 2: it is very impressive.

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Speaker 4: Well, Beijing is this desert step city with stalinist characteristics,

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Speaker 4: and you know, there's kind of this thread of apocalypse

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Speaker 4: that hangs over there.

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Speaker 2: Roads.

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Speaker 4: I don't love the ring roads. These streets are way

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Speaker 4: too long and so and they're way too wide. And

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Speaker 4: you know, I was in Beijing once this dust storm

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Speaker 4: swept through the city where everything turned yellow. I thought

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Speaker 4: I woke up sick that day, but because everything was

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Speaker 4: yellow that day. So there's some charm definitely to Beijing.

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Speaker 4: But when we were living in Shanghai, we were calling

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Speaker 4: ourselves the Paris of the East, and we were calling

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Speaker 4: Paris the Shanghai of the West, and then we were

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Speaker 4: calling Beijing western kunye. You know, why would you visit

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Speaker 4: West Korea? So you know, these are the sort of

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Speaker 4: things where you know, we are happily dismissive of the

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Speaker 4: Beijing life. There's definitely parts of the Beijing life which

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Speaker 4: feels much more intellectual. You know, the Communist Party really

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Speaker 4: is much more centered there. That great universities are much

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Speaker 4: more centered there. Shanghai is much prizes, much more convenience

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Speaker 4: and comfort, and that's in part because the French literally

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Speaker 4: built a major section of the city, these leafy boulevards.

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Speaker 4: You have these cafes everywhere. It's super walkable. You're never

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Speaker 4: that far from a subway st Shanghai, and then Beijing

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Speaker 4: was essentially designed by Stalin, so it can't be all

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Speaker 4: that pleasant.

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Speaker 2: I will say Beijing is the only place in the

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Speaker 2: entire world where I ever developed eczema. I had it

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Speaker 2: for like three months just in Beijing. Never had it

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Speaker 2: ever again.

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Speaker 4: I have these I don't know about headaches that kind

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Speaker 4: of random times. When I was living in Beijing. That

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Speaker 4: was the only city where I actually had to experience that.

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Speaker 2: It's so strange.

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Speaker 3: If we ever do a live episode of the podcast

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Speaker 3: in China, I guess we don't have to do Beijing.

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Speaker 3: I don't know, you kind of I would be.

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Speaker 2: Beijing to Shanghai. Shanghai might actually be the smarter choice

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Speaker 2: because our audience is probably bigger there. Yeah, but I

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Speaker 2: really like Beijing. I don't know.

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Speaker 4: I like the food.

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Speaker 3: In my twenty four hours, and you've you've talked about this,

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Speaker 3: but in my twenty four hours or many things that

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Speaker 3: stood out, but the one thing that's and you know,

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Speaker 3: here I'm going to commit an active, modest journalism. The

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Speaker 3: one thing that stood out that I can't get out

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Speaker 3: of my head from visiting China that you know, I

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Speaker 3: saw kind of had great food. I saw the electronics

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Speaker 3: smart et cetera us a little bit more than anything else.

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Speaker 3: Me Like, it's okay, so we're sitting here, the three

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Speaker 3: of us are talking. I'm physically in pain right now,

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Speaker 3: like that I haven't checked my phone five times, like that,

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Speaker 3: I in this conversation, like it's very difficult for me

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Speaker 3: to like go We've been talking for nine minutes so far.

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Speaker 3: So normally I would have checked my phone five minutes,

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Speaker 3: but I could do it, but like, I have never

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Speaker 3: been in a culture, in a city, et cetera, in

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Speaker 3: which there was more just like on some phone use

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Speaker 3: like that is the one that I still just cannot

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Speaker 3: get out of my head. And to a nice dinner

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Speaker 3: everyone with their screen up, you know, which would be

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Speaker 3: very I think like if I if you did that

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Speaker 3: in New York, that would be considered really rude. I

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Speaker 3: think to have your phone and yet Joe, no, I

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Speaker 3: like to have your phone face up off the table.

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Speaker 3: I was like really stunned. And you've talked about this too,

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Speaker 3: and I'm sort of like, I kind of want to

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Speaker 3: talk about phone culture.

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Speaker 4: Okay, let's talk about phone culture. Joe. What is the

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Speaker 4: right number of times to check your phone in ten minutes?

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Speaker 4: Is a five? Is a five hundred? Unless that, yeah,

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Speaker 4: this is real, this is I might.

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Speaker 3: I'm totally you know, because the thing was and I

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Speaker 3: just like I was like, oh, I don't want to

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Speaker 3: be rude, but I want to take some pictures. Maybe

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Speaker 3: I want to tweet something, but like, but you know,

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Speaker 3: I don't want to be rude. And then I would

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Speaker 3: like look around and like everyone was on their phone.

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Speaker 3: So I was like, I guess it's not rude, right,

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Speaker 3: I felt great. I loved it.

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Speaker 4: I I am much more New York culture. Stop looking

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Speaker 4: at your phone, man, let's have a debate about this, Joe, great,

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Speaker 4: So you know, where do we need to check? What's

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Speaker 4: what's so important on the phone that we can't talk

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Speaker 4: to each other about face to face right now?

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Speaker 3: But no, I mean, look, I'm glad that we have

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Speaker 3: this conversation where the expectation is that we have our

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Speaker 3: phones down. But like was my when you went back

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Speaker 3: to China recently, did you have the same sense that

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Speaker 3: I did?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, totally that. I think that a lot of good

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Speaker 4: friends would be around the table and then they would

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Speaker 4: start pulling their phone and what are they doing on

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Speaker 4: their phone? It's actually totally trivial stuff. They're kind of

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Speaker 4: just checking the progress of their jd dot com or

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Speaker 4: Ali Baba deliveries. They're kind of scrolling through some photos

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Speaker 4: that they've just taken and deleting a few, selecting a few,

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Speaker 4: and it's like, yeah, not everyone is able to get

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Speaker 4: together all the time, So you know, is that the

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Speaker 4: most important thing right now? Definitely phone culture has broken

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Speaker 4: Joe Weisenthal Lauwei's brain. Yeah, but hasn't it broken like

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Speaker 4: hundreds of millions of people's brains across the world. And

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Speaker 4: there is something I think not to be a boomer

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Speaker 4: about this. No, it's fine, it's great, important about But

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Speaker 4: what do you think.

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Speaker 3: As much as I'm guilty of it, I don't think

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Speaker 3: that the always checking of phones it's a healthy part

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Speaker 3: of New York society or American society. Like, I think

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Speaker 3: I am participating in something that is unhelpful and not

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Speaker 3: an anti not pro social every time I check my

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Speaker 3: phone in a group environment or even when I'm alone,

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Speaker 3: I should be reading a book instead. And so like,

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Speaker 3: I was just stunned by the degree of like. And

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Speaker 3: then you walk into a store and every store in

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Speaker 3: the mall has a girl live streaming on whatever the

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Speaker 3: equivalent of TikTok is of like what's happening in the store?

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Speaker 4: Like?

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Speaker 3: The degree of like phoneness was wild.

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Speaker 2: To me, As someone who is often the victim of

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Speaker 2: Joe's phone addiction, I will say it does make me

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Speaker 2: sad when I'm talking to you and you literally like

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Speaker 2: leave the conversation mid sentence to go take a photo

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Speaker 2: of someone's T shirt and tweet it, which happened last week?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, Tracy, you and I are going to have dinner

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Speaker 4: and Joe can be off on the side like tweeting

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Speaker 4: like a toddler, and then you and actually have like

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Speaker 4: a much more serious conversation. What do you think?

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Speaker 3: This is why I'm actually glad I have this job,

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Speaker 3: because it's an hour at the time, throughout various times

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Speaker 3: of the week in which I don't look at my phone.

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Speaker 2: Let's get back on chat. Let's do China. Okay, how

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Speaker 2: much of the Chinese phone obsession I'm thinking how to

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Speaker 2: phrase this, but how much of it is just because

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Speaker 2: your entire life is basically oriented on your phone?

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Speaker 1: Now?

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Speaker 2: And I know we could say something similar about the US,

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Speaker 2: but I feel like, you know, payment systems, online shopping

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Speaker 2: are even more endemic in China than they are here.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, well, so this is where we should praise, you know,

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Speaker 4: what enables the phone culture. First of all, let's say

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Speaker 4: you have this amazing mobile infrastructure where five G is

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Speaker 4: truly everywhere, and you know, it is kind of odd

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Speaker 4: to me that you head into pockets of New York,

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Speaker 4: namely the subway as well as many other places, like

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Speaker 4: you know, kind of remote parts and you just kind

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Speaker 4: of drop out of cell access, and I kind of

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Speaker 4: wish that we had mobile access everywhere. And there is

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Speaker 4: kind of this broader phenomenon in East Asia where people

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Speaker 4: have super long commutes on the subway. Let's say like

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Speaker 4: an hour to get into tokyoil, you know, an hour

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Speaker 4: to get into a central Shanghai Rishinjin, and you know,

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Speaker 4: having mobile games and having phones is kind of just

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Speaker 4: a great way to pass the time in your cool,

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Speaker 4: well connected subway. So there's some good things here, and

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Speaker 4: you have basically a lot more apps that are highly functional.

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Speaker 4: You're able to order absolutely anything you want into your door.

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Speaker 4: You know, fifteen minutes you can get an amazing froissant.

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Speaker 4: And so there are some good parts here, but let's

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Speaker 4: also get into the bad parts. So the bad parts

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Speaker 4: are when you're when you're in China, you're kind of

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Speaker 4: constantly expected to be on for your boss all the time.

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Speaker 4: And so you know, if we were in China, we

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Speaker 4: have like three producers sitting behind us, We're going to

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Speaker 4: have Joe Weisenthal Allawi texting them all the time about

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Speaker 4: you know, pick up this or that, and so I

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Speaker 4: I think that is less pleasant.

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Speaker 3: Sorry, just a It does seem self reinforcing, which is

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Speaker 3: that if everyone is on their phone, everyone then becomes

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Speaker 3: expected to text back within the minute, which means you

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Speaker 3: can't opt out of always looking your phone. Anyway, keep going.

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Speaker 2: This is the other thing. So I know you're always

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Speaker 2: on your phone, and so when I whatsap you and

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Speaker 2: you don't immediately reply, I get insulted.

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Speaker 3: DM me, just Twitter, DM me anyway, keep going. But yes,

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Speaker 3: Tracy is She's like, I know you're looking at your phone.

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Speaker 3: Whyever you responded?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he has a very limited bandwidth in which to reply.

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Speaker 3: I know, go on, just keep talking about it.

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Speaker 4: I can text. Why is in thal like in thirty seconds?

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Speaker 4: I know he ought to reply, So why isn't you

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Speaker 4: replying within three minutes? But so, I mean, the good

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Speaker 4: thing is that you can always use for friends, and

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Speaker 4: that's always good too. But myself, I think I'm much

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Speaker 4: more of an American whatever European about this. I just

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Speaker 4: silenced all of my notifications. My friends can't really reach me.

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Speaker 4: I think it's better that way, and I think I

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Speaker 4: prefer it not to be reached whenever at anyone else's pleasure.

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Speaker 4: But you know, if you need to like call someone,

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Speaker 4: you know, you know that almost always pay.

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Speaker 3: Cutty talk about influencers because this is like this is

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Speaker 3: when I when we were in Shenzhen at one point,

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Speaker 3: the guy who I was going around with is like, Oh,

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Speaker 3: there's a really nice apartments, like all the influencers live there,

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Speaker 3: talk about like influencer culture there.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. Well, this is also one of these things that

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Speaker 4: make China increasingly highly unpleasant to me now, the extent

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Speaker 4: to which everyone is just photographing themselves as kind of

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Speaker 4: that's kind of the main thing. So I usually go

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Speaker 4: visit Shanghai and doing that, which are I think, without

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Speaker 4: a doubt, the two most beautiful parts of China. And

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Speaker 4: another good thing about being in beautiful parts is that

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Speaker 4: you have a wonderful city, you have this wonderful province.

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Speaker 4: But what sort of distresses me is how many cafes

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Speaker 4: in Shanghai are just places where young people, overwhelmingly woman

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Speaker 4: park to take photos of themselves. Perhaps a group of

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Speaker 4: seven might order one or two coffees, to the disappointment

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Speaker 4: of the cafe owners, and then they part themselves there

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Speaker 4: for like an hour or so, taking photographs and so

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Speaker 4: many of these Shanghai city blocks have been almost re

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Speaker 4: architected to be photo spots, whether these are outdoors or

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Speaker 4: whether these are restaurants, and so you know, that's just

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Speaker 4: a lot of photography. Have you noticed something like this,

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Speaker 4: Oh yeah, I mean.

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Speaker 3: I would say this is describes the West Village in

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Speaker 3: large part.

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Speaker 2: For sure. For sure. I still remember the very first

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Speaker 2: time I went to Dominic Ansel in New York and

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Speaker 2: everyone was taking photos of the food, and I was like, oh, like,

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Speaker 2: food is now performance basically. But okay, so is influencer

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Speaker 2: culture that's standing in the way of cheshin pings drive

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Speaker 2: to increase consumption? Is that what we're saying.

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Speaker 4: I think that must be a part of it, because

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Speaker 4: at some point you wonder the extent to which phone

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Speaker 4: culture becomes a substitute for real spending on holiday. So,

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Speaker 4: as I just mentioned, you know, you have cafes, you

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Speaker 4: may have cocktail bars in which a gaggle of people

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Speaker 4: come over and then have buy two drinks, and then

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Speaker 4: they spend the rest of their time photographing themselves. Maybe

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Speaker 4: you can say that the constant photography is a boon

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Speaker 4: for live streaming, and so that promotes some aspect of consumption.

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Speaker 4: But I think overwhelmingly people are substituting away real experiences

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Speaker 4: to you know, let's say, have like a super nice,

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Speaker 4: you know, travel experience, when they could just photograph themselves.

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Speaker 4: Because the other part of being in Yuen nine, which

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Speaker 4: is in the southwest, this is the region where my

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Speaker 4: family is from. You know, this is highly mountainous. It's

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Speaker 4: essentially Tibet in the north, it's part of the Himalayas.

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Speaker 4: Literally in the north and then in the south is

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Speaker 4: basically a giant rainforest. And in between there are basically

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Speaker 4: twenty five of China's nearly sixty official ethnic groups. And

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Speaker 4: so with these rich richer again overwhelmingly girls from Shanghai

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Speaker 4: beaching shin Chin. We do is that they go to Unine,

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Speaker 4: dress in this ethnic garb, pretend that they're Tibetan for

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Speaker 4: a day, take some you know, a snowdrop, you know,

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Speaker 4: snow covered mountains as a backdrop. They're parts of New York, Miami,

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Speaker 4: LA that have been architected. But I think phone culture

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Speaker 4: is much more extreme. But Joe, did you consider tressing

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Speaker 4: up as a Tibetan.

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Speaker 3: No, But I know that if Tracy and I ever

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Speaker 3: go to China together. I'm gonna have to take a

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Speaker 3: lot of foot like Tracy is gonna make me do

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Speaker 3: that for sure, absolutely for her Instagram.

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Speaker 2: You're a decent photographer, so you know it helps.

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Speaker 4: You know, I'm maybe part Tibetan myself. This is part

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Speaker 4: of the family lore. When the Tibetans come up to me,

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Speaker 4: they always say Tasha Delay and so you know, maybe

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Speaker 4: I am. It's just their hello standard greeting, and you know,

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Speaker 4: maybe the three of us can do an awesome photo shoot.

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Speaker 4: This is one time.

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Speaker 3: This is now we're going to do a road but

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Speaker 3: we're going to make this happen.

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Speaker 2: I would actually do that trip. You described this as

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Speaker 2: mostly girls, and this is also a phenomenon in the West,

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Speaker 2: But why, like, what is the ultimate goal of taking

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Speaker 2: all these photos and sticking them on social media? Is it,

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Speaker 2: you know, dating, is it building a professional brand? Is

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Speaker 2: it just socializing with your online friends?

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Speaker 4: You know, Tracy, I don't look at these photos, so

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Speaker 4: it's only speculation for me. But I think it has

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Speaker 4: to be all the same phenomenon where you know, women

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Speaker 4: everywhere feel like they have to perform for the GRAM or,

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Speaker 4: in the case of China, for the sell Holm Show.

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Speaker 4: And I think the added layer in China is just

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Speaker 4: that it's kind of a cheap way to have fun

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Speaker 4: and to establish that you've been there and you know,

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Speaker 4: these are kind of beautiful things, and you do spend

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Speaker 4: a lot of effort on makeup, and so I think

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Speaker 4: it is it could be kind of fun, but so

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Speaker 4: why not? So when I am sometimes upset by the

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Speaker 4: photo culture, I remind myself, you know, these ladies aren't

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Speaker 4: harming me, so when I'm no skin off my nose,

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Speaker 4: they should have a great time.

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Speaker 3: They're not harming you no skin off your nose. On

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Speaker 3: the other hands, I don't really know much about like

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Speaker 3: how are you how are your male relatives doing in China?

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Speaker 3: And the only reason I ask is actually because I'm

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Speaker 3: aware that in Korea, which you know, is totally separate country,

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Speaker 3: did people talk about the gender gap in politics here

438
00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:27,720
Speaker 3: in the US. That the gender gap in politics in

439
00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:32,879
Speaker 3: Korea specifically is extraordinarily large, and that the you know,

440
00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:37,240
Speaker 3: the sort of fore chantification of politics in Korea seems

441
00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:40,200
Speaker 3: like even far more advanced than it is in the West.

442
00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:43,720
Speaker 3: There's no electoral politics in China, so we don't really

443
00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:46,880
Speaker 3: get to read articles about how these feelings express themselves

444
00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:50,080
Speaker 3: at the ballot the same way. But how do how

445
00:21:50,119 --> 00:21:53,520
Speaker 3: would that? How would you know the Dan Wong's, your

446
00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:56,320
Speaker 3: cousins or friends, male friends, how are they feeling?

447
00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:59,000
Speaker 4: Yeah? Well, I think you guys have done this a

448
00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:02,600
Speaker 4: remarkable job of keeping this conversation on track. But I

449
00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:04,800
Speaker 4: think we need to get this back on track and

450
00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:09,760
Speaker 4: talk about my male pseudo relative, Joe Wisenthal lauwise slight

451
00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:13,679
Speaker 4: time in China. And I notice, Joe, you know, for

452
00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:17,840
Speaker 4: those watching on camera, you have a Chinese ethnic garb yourself.

453
00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:22,320
Speaker 4: You have an anti shirt on you. So we're going

454
00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:25,119
Speaker 4: to ask you to talk a little bit more about

455
00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:28,480
Speaker 4: your impressions twenty four hours though they may be. And

456
00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:30,760
Speaker 4: I'm just going to offer one more proverb, a well

457
00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:34,800
Speaker 4: known ancient Chinese proverby here about visiting China. So you

458
00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:39,240
Speaker 4: know the everyone knows that you know, you visit China

459
00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:42,040
Speaker 4: for twenty four hours, you feel like you can write

460
00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:45,479
Speaker 4: a book. Visit China for a week, you start, you know,

461
00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:48,720
Speaker 4: having some doubts. You live six years in China and

462
00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:51,119
Speaker 4: you realize you know nothing. So you know, what's the

463
00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:53,399
Speaker 4: book in you? Joe that you're going to give to us.

464
00:22:55,760 --> 00:22:59,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't mean to brag, Yeah that I actually

465
00:22:59,880 --> 00:23:02,440
Speaker 3: like do not hit Like I feel like, very viscerally

466
00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:05,280
Speaker 3: that I only got the tiniest slice. And I maybe

467
00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:07,119
Speaker 3: just because I've been doing media for a while, Like

468
00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:09,399
Speaker 3: I really do not feel like I could say anything

469
00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:12,280
Speaker 3: useful about China from twenty four hours.

470
00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:14,240
Speaker 4: I could be on how you felt, how you felt.

471
00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:16,960
Speaker 3: I mean, I had a great time visically, all the

472
00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:19,480
Speaker 3: cars are real, that all the cars that we see

473
00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:21,840
Speaker 3: on social media, they're all real. The food is all great.

474
00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:25,280
Speaker 3: I spent a night in the Park Hyatt, which was

475
00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:27,600
Speaker 3: probably one of the top three or four hotels I've

476
00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:30,000
Speaker 3: ever spent a night in, and it was two hundred

477
00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:33,960
Speaker 3: and fifty dollars, which would be like the grimest hotel

478
00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:37,080
Speaker 3: off of Times Square. But there was a twenty four hours.

479
00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:38,399
Speaker 2: Cool like tech stuff as well.

480
00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:40,399
Speaker 3: I went to the tech mall and like I bought

481
00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:45,600
Speaker 3: for fifteen dollars as I massager. I almost bought a

482
00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:49,560
Speaker 3: suitcase that could double as a scooter for a grown

483
00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:51,960
Speaker 3: adult person and right around the airport. But I was

484
00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:54,040
Speaker 3: worried about like the batteries and like I wish I

485
00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:55,840
Speaker 3: got that. I know, if my son would have loved it,

486
00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:58,080
Speaker 3: Like if I told him if I showed him a video,

487
00:23:58,119 --> 00:23:59,840
Speaker 3: he'd be so upset that I didn't get that fro him.

488
00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:02,520
Speaker 3: But like, you know, all of this, like basically in

489
00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:05,600
Speaker 3: the twenty four hours, it's like all the social media

490
00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:08,040
Speaker 3: stuff that like I'm innated by, Like I was, like,

491
00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:10,760
Speaker 3: all of it is at least in this one city,

492
00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:14,560
Speaker 3: incredibly advanced, an entire city as big as in New

493
00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:17,119
Speaker 3: York where all the offices are about feel like the

494
00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:20,640
Speaker 3: new JP Morgan headquarters. Like that's extraordinary.

495
00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:24,480
Speaker 4: What did you not like about this experience walking around?

496
00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:27,520
Speaker 3: No, I liked that. I actually didn't like. I found

497
00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:32,320
Speaker 3: it to be very pleasant. Twenty four hours including I

498
00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:34,960
Speaker 3: went and bought some cigarettes for friends on smoke but

499
00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:38,920
Speaker 3: some friends do and currently in New York Chinese cigarette

500
00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:41,920
Speaker 3: Chinese cigarettes are very highly Yeah, this is the thing.

501
00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:42,720
Speaker 4: What's the brand?

502
00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:45,440
Speaker 3: Well, I got a Chunua. I don't know, but there's

503
00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:47,119
Speaker 3: I bought a bunch of other brands. I'll show you

504
00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:49,080
Speaker 3: the box. I mean they don't have the labels on it.

505
00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:50,679
Speaker 4: We're going to go out for a smoke after this.

506
00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:53,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's fine. But like when I went to the

507
00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:56,520
Speaker 3: cigarette and liquor dealer. Like you walk in and the

508
00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:58,439
Speaker 3: first thing he just starts pouring tea for everyone and

509
00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:00,639
Speaker 3: opening packs for you to try, Like this is great,

510
00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:03,480
Speaker 3: this is this is this is a good life. Yeah,

511
00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:06,760
Speaker 3: but you're the guest, so you gotta tell you gotta

512
00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:07,440
Speaker 3: tell us like.

513
00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:08,760
Speaker 2: This is liquor and cigarettes.

514
00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:11,720
Speaker 4: Yeah. No, after this, we're gonna, you know, drink some

515
00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:14,440
Speaker 4: bites you We're gonna have a huadza, which is kind

516
00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:16,680
Speaker 4: of how you refer to a cigarette there. And then

517
00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:22,639
Speaker 4: so my I don't love Shinjin. I really feel like

518
00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:25,720
Speaker 4: Shinjin is America's answered at San Jose. You know, we

519
00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:29,240
Speaker 4: kind of talk about Shinjin as the Silicon Valley of China,

520
00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:31,040
Speaker 4: and I think, yeah, you know, it's kind of the

521
00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:34,080
Speaker 4: San Jose. It's kind of these big, kind of big

522
00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:37,040
Speaker 4: midtown buildings. It's a lot of office parks. I mean,

523
00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:39,000
Speaker 4: the nice thing about it is it's really green, but

524
00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:41,520
Speaker 4: it's you know, the parts of the city is really

525
00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:43,560
Speaker 4: centered between the east and the west, and to get

526
00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:45,280
Speaker 4: between them you have to get on this big highway.

527
00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:48,960
Speaker 4: So oh yeah, urban design is not great. And so

528
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:50,720
Speaker 4: this is why I think, you know, Shanghai is still

529
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:53,280
Speaker 4: much much better. And I think that, you know, when

530
00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:56,000
Speaker 4: people are in China, I think the you know, the

531
00:25:56,520 --> 00:25:59,560
Speaker 4: the central contradiction as the Marxists like to call it

532
00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:02,240
Speaker 4: now is what I feel on this trip is that

533
00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:04,639
Speaker 4: this is kind of people have a bit of a

534
00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:06,600
Speaker 4: serene discontent with their lives.

535
00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:10,840
Speaker 2: So we sort of sorry, we kind.

536
00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:13,240
Speaker 4: Of maybe everyone does, but I think it is a

537
00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:16,640
Speaker 4: little bit more extreme in China. So on the one hand,

538
00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:21,080
Speaker 4: the products are really really amazing. So you have these,

539
00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:24,959
Speaker 4: you know, amazing you know, suitcase rollers that you can

540
00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:29,760
Speaker 4: sit and roll around, you know, Paul Blart, Mall Cup,

541
00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:36,480
Speaker 4: Choe Weisenthal, Laubai Airport roller Guy. And when I was

542
00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:38,879
Speaker 4: in Shanghai this sum, I was really struck by the

543
00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:42,280
Speaker 4: amazing food culture there. I mean just in terms of,

544
00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:45,960
Speaker 4: you know, the coffees now all have these infusions that

545
00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:50,120
Speaker 4: make them look almost like caffeinated cocktails without the alcohol.

546
00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:52,960
Speaker 4: So you know, why not have her coffee being infused

547
00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:55,919
Speaker 4: with some sort of honey, dew, melon and roast water,

548
00:26:56,680 --> 00:26:58,639
Speaker 4: all these amazing things, and they taste really good, And

549
00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:01,240
Speaker 4: I'm thinking, oh, why am I getting a standard Americana

550
00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:05,240
Speaker 4: when it can have something like this. The croissants are

551
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:08,040
Speaker 4: really really amazing. I love up baked goods, and so,

552
00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:11,160
Speaker 4: you know, the Chinese croissants are like approaching Parisian maybe

553
00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:15,560
Speaker 4: Copenhagen levels of quality, Tokyo levels of quality. I'm you know,

554
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:17,680
Speaker 4: I spend a lot of time talking about how China

555
00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:22,200
Speaker 4: builds a ton of electrical power solar, wind, nuclear, et cetera.

556
00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:26,320
Speaker 4: And then I learned how much it costs to charge

557
00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:29,159
Speaker 4: your electric vehicle to the full range of about six

558
00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:33,159
Speaker 4: hundred kilometers. It's about like twelve dollars to have essentially

559
00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:35,959
Speaker 4: a full tank of black gas. And that's kind of

560
00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:38,639
Speaker 4: totally amazing. And so people are able to have a

561
00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:42,280
Speaker 4: really good life. They have access to cheap noodles. Cities

562
00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:45,600
Speaker 4: are amazing. And yet, and yet, take a look at

563
00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:50,119
Speaker 4: how people are, especially young people. Youth on employment according

564
00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:53,159
Speaker 4: to the official data, is you know, north of fifteen

565
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:58,439
Speaker 4: percent training close to twenty percent. The main source of

566
00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:01,840
Speaker 4: wealth for most people is parked in property. Something like

567
00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:04,880
Speaker 4: three quarters of the wealth is in property. Property has

568
00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:07,439
Speaker 4: fallen by twenty five to thirty percent across all these

569
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:10,760
Speaker 4: big cities. This is the first time in Shanghai, where

570
00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:13,240
Speaker 4: you know, friends have told us that there are sort

571
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:16,960
Speaker 4: of these homeless people wandering through the outskirts of Shanghai

572
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:19,679
Speaker 4: because all of these migrant workers may have nowhere to

573
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:25,000
Speaker 4: go based on all this macro data, migrants are kind

574
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:27,639
Speaker 4: of returning to the countryside because they can't find great jobs.

575
00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:34,840
Speaker 4: The college educated young people, mostly men, are doing delivery

576
00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:38,240
Speaker 4: drivers because they can't find great jobs. Everyone's kind of

577
00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:40,720
Speaker 4: all these young people are sort of living with their parents,

578
00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:44,720
Speaker 4: which is kind of a fine lifestyle. And for me,

579
00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:48,920
Speaker 4: the most amazing fact about China now is that Shanghai

580
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:51,520
Speaker 4: is such an amazing city and no one wants to

581
00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:53,560
Speaker 4: have kids. No one wants to have kids. So the

582
00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:58,040
Speaker 4: national TFR rate in China, and this is the official

583
00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:01,240
Speaker 4: data is one point oh high is zero point six,

584
00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:04,160
Speaker 4: which is on par with Taipei and Soul. And there

585
00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:07,760
Speaker 4: are aspects the richest parts of Shanghai the TFR official

586
00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:10,120
Speaker 4: TFR is like zero point four. And so, you know,

587
00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:13,240
Speaker 4: how can this function when you know in a couple

588
00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:15,600
Speaker 4: of years and something like I think twenty years, half

589
00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:18,160
Speaker 4: the population will be north of sixty five. How can

590
00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:21,120
Speaker 4: the city function when half the people expect to be retired?

591
00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:24,240
Speaker 4: And how can the country function when you know there's

592
00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:26,200
Speaker 4: no young people. And this is something that I used

593
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:28,520
Speaker 4: to be a little bit more sanguine about the demographic cliff.

594
00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:30,560
Speaker 4: This is where you know, are we going to see

595
00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:34,040
Speaker 4: completely different China in fifteen years. That's I'm much less

596
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:34,640
Speaker 4: sanguine about it.

597
00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:54,080
Speaker 3: That seeing these global stats and being at a place

598
00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:57,880
Speaker 3: where it's like, Okay, it's not so expensive and transport

599
00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:02,640
Speaker 3: it's very easy with children, et cetera. And yet still,

600
00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:08,040
Speaker 3: you know, fertility is collapsing like that. Unfortunately, it definitely

601
00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:10,640
Speaker 3: makes me more skeptical of a lot of the claims

602
00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:14,040
Speaker 3: that like hopefully we had like free childcare in the

603
00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:17,720
Speaker 3: US or whatever, that that would like make people more

604
00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:20,000
Speaker 3: inclined to have families and stuff like that. Like, it

605
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:25,000
Speaker 3: doesn't seem like these physical material affordances actually too much

606
00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:25,840
Speaker 3: on that front.

607
00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:28,120
Speaker 2: Well, I was going to ask Dan, what's your theory

608
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:30,880
Speaker 2: for declining birth rates in China? Because you hear all

609
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:33,400
Speaker 2: these different things about you know, like the work culture

610
00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:38,400
Speaker 2: is too intense, the educational culture is too intense, life

611
00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:40,000
Speaker 2: in general is too intense.

612
00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:43,760
Speaker 4: What do you think, Yeah, yes, And I mean the

613
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:47,000
Speaker 4: first thing to say is that China is not an

614
00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:48,480
Speaker 4: outlier in YaST Asia.

615
00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:52,800
Speaker 3: So outlier anywhere it's ahead of the curve. But there's

616
00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:56,600
Speaker 3: not a place in the world, including Africa, including Central

617
00:30:56,640 --> 00:31:00,920
Speaker 3: and South America, et cetera, where we don't fertility rates

618
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:02,200
Speaker 3: basically falling off a cliff.

619
00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:04,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, but I mean the I mean, I think I

620
00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:08,040
Speaker 4: think there may even be a qualitative difference between TFR

621
00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:10,400
Speaker 4: of what is US now one point six, one point

622
00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:14,960
Speaker 4: seven and one point zero, And so the the exponential

623
00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:20,040
Speaker 4: math here really starts doing their punishing math. So you know,

624
00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:23,320
Speaker 4: in East Asia, you know, Japan is actually now you know,

625
00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:26,400
Speaker 4: kind of something like one point two one point three,

626
00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:33,200
Speaker 4: and they have they're further down the demographic curve, but

627
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:36,280
Speaker 4: there have a higher TFR at the moment, and they're

628
00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:38,600
Speaker 4: much more open to immigrants, and so, you know, should

629
00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:41,760
Speaker 4: we be more optimistic about Japan or China? You know,

630
00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:45,480
Speaker 4: the Japan is more open immigrants and has high higher TFR.

631
00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:46,560
Speaker 4: So maybe can I just.

632
00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:51,840
Speaker 3: Yea on a statistical methodology question, does that tf does

633
00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:56,920
Speaker 3: the national Japanese TFR include the immigrant population, which presumably

634
00:31:57,120 --> 00:31:59,880
Speaker 3: which might have a higher TFR than the ethnically Japanese.

635
00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:03,800
Speaker 4: Surely, but I suspect that the immigrants are not that

636
00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:06,400
Speaker 4: big a part of the population really to affect that.

637
00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:09,719
Speaker 4: And you know, I think the East Asian problem, if

638
00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:11,640
Speaker 4: I had to boil this down to one thing, and

639
00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:14,200
Speaker 4: obviously life is complex, but the one thing has to

640
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:18,920
Speaker 4: be the educational culture where you know, people feel like,

641
00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:21,880
Speaker 4: you know, if they if their kid can't get into

642
00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:25,120
Speaker 4: the right university, then their life is over. And therefore

643
00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:27,000
Speaker 4: they need to get into the right kindergarten to get

644
00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:29,320
Speaker 4: into the right university. And if they can't live in

645
00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:32,800
Speaker 4: this particular section of Shanghai Rishanjin, then they might as

646
00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:34,680
Speaker 4: well not have a kid at all. And I think

647
00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:37,840
Speaker 4: it's also worth acknowledging all of these other pressures that

648
00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:40,680
Speaker 4: families pile on the kids that you know, your life

649
00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:45,200
Speaker 4: is so oriented towards education, and then you know, after education,

650
00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:48,640
Speaker 4: it's so oriented towards getting a great job in finance

651
00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:51,480
Speaker 4: or tech. And then you know, once you've checked off

652
00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:55,200
Speaker 4: that box, you know the parents are telling you. Women

653
00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:58,520
Speaker 4: face only one question in China, when are you going

654
00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:00,920
Speaker 4: to marry to the unmarried when you're gonna have kids

655
00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:04,040
Speaker 4: to to those without kids, and just you know, you

656
00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:08,000
Speaker 4: this all these social pressures that keep reproducing themselves. I

657
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:10,120
Speaker 4: think it's like a wonder that anyone has children.

658
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:14,120
Speaker 3: This actually gets to something that I wanted to that

659
00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:17,720
Speaker 3: I regret not talking about. And the last time we

660
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:20,240
Speaker 3: had you on the podcast, which was last year, and

661
00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:24,520
Speaker 3: we were talking about your book Breakneck. And around the

662
00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:27,280
Speaker 3: same time that I read your book, I also read

663
00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:31,840
Speaker 3: Evado's book about Huawe, and like the culture they had there,

664
00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:36,240
Speaker 3: and one thing that she really emphasizes in that book

665
00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:40,320
Speaker 3: and other like about this extraordinary company is like this

666
00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:42,800
Speaker 3: sort of yes, of course they have like plenty of

667
00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:47,080
Speaker 3: brilliant engineers, et cetera, but they also have like this,

668
00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:50,720
Speaker 3: this this culture that probably is a sort of silhouette

669
00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:53,400
Speaker 3: of CCP culture, maybe it's a way to put it.

670
00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:56,440
Speaker 3: And how like the company's founder instill a certain like

671
00:33:56,520 --> 00:34:00,000
Speaker 3: willingness to die within the company's cadres and they would

672
00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:03,120
Speaker 3: therefore win the contract to build five G in I Rock,

673
00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:06,320
Speaker 3: or win the contract to build five G in Afghanistan

674
00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:09,600
Speaker 3: because they would not leave the country while everyone else would.

675
00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:12,640
Speaker 3: And there are these certain cultures like that strikes me

676
00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:16,560
Speaker 3: as like a cultural change or a difference in corporate

677
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:20,720
Speaker 3: culture that is not simply about say the engineers versus

678
00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:23,640
Speaker 3: lawyer brain that you discuss in your book. And so

679
00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:26,200
Speaker 3: when you talk about some of these like intense cultural

680
00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:30,200
Speaker 3: forces about getting into the right school, et cetera, when

681
00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:32,960
Speaker 3: you read about this sort of like imbuing of the

682
00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:36,680
Speaker 3: Huawei ideology within the company, et cetera, is there something

683
00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:41,000
Speaker 3: else going on that drives these companies to the technological

684
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:44,960
Speaker 3: frontier to success beyond just you know, the sort of

685
00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:47,920
Speaker 3: engineering mindset that you discussed. They're an ideological component.

686
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:52,400
Speaker 4: Yeah. Well, Evado's book is great on Huawei. I blurpd it.

687
00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:55,160
Speaker 4: I think everyone should read it. And then you know,

688
00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:58,040
Speaker 4: to read these descriptions of the wolf culture I think

689
00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:01,759
Speaker 4: is the term on Huawei. You know, they rushed towards Afghanistan,

690
00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:05,240
Speaker 4: and so I think that there is definitely an element

691
00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:08,080
Speaker 4: here that is very real. And I would say that

692
00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:12,240
Speaker 4: this is more kind of a developing country's hustle mindset

693
00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:14,920
Speaker 4: because you know who else had this culture? New York

694
00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:17,040
Speaker 4: City of one hundred years ago, Joe, you used to

695
00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:19,920
Speaker 4: live in the Lower east Side here. There's a lot

696
00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:22,480
Speaker 4: of people there. Yeah, you know where there's a lot

697
00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:24,960
Speaker 4: of people, you know, Lower east Side one hundred years ago,

698
00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:27,959
Speaker 4: when there were like fifteen people living in a single room.

699
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:31,359
Speaker 4: You know, so you know, in the US definitely had

700
00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:35,799
Speaker 4: this and so the US people would rush forward. And

701
00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:37,480
Speaker 4: so this is where I think this is kind of

702
00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:41,080
Speaker 4: just you know, capitalism. And my view is that if

703
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:44,360
Speaker 4: you want to appreciate capitalism red and tooth and claw,

704
00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:46,400
Speaker 4: you go to Shanghai, You go to Changing and go

705
00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:48,480
Speaker 4: to Beijing, you go to all of these places where

706
00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:51,920
Speaker 4: people just really work their asses off because they believe

707
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:55,200
Speaker 4: that there is, you know, something worth pursuing for. And

708
00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:57,680
Speaker 4: the US used to have this, and I think that

709
00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:02,960
Speaker 4: you know, the China very very deliberately picked up as

710
00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:05,239
Speaker 4: much as it could from the United States. You know,

711
00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:08,319
Speaker 4: the the cities are kind of built more like the

712
00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:11,080
Speaker 4: US cities, much more of a car culture. You know,

713
00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:15,839
Speaker 4: my phone charger plugs into the US and China more

714
00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:18,239
Speaker 4: easily than it plugs into anywhere in Europe. So you know,

715
00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:21,720
Speaker 4: they copied the US a lot, and they copied everything

716
00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:24,239
Speaker 4: from the US aside from the political system. And so

717
00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:27,000
Speaker 4: they've decided that they got to hustle. And so maybe

718
00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:30,000
Speaker 4: you know, you're a New York custler, Joe, and you know,

719
00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:31,840
Speaker 4: this is what attracts you about China today.

720
00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:35,840
Speaker 3: In an earlier stage of my life. Maybe I was

721
00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:37,560
Speaker 3: now sort of just like I'm fine to.

722
00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:44,040
Speaker 2: Since you mentioned the wolf thing. What's what's the nationalist

723
00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:46,560
Speaker 2: temperature like at the moment in China?

724
00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:50,920
Speaker 4: I think it is fairly study and I think that

725
00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:56,600
Speaker 4: they're My sense of part of what put or what

726
00:36:56,719 --> 00:37:00,560
Speaker 4: ails the Chinese economy right now is that Teasing Ping

727
00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:04,399
Speaker 4: has his wish come true. And I think that top

728
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:09,560
Speaker 4: leader Seesing Ping's main goal is to militarize and harden

729
00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:14,480
Speaker 4: the country for great power competition with the United States.

730
00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:19,120
Speaker 4: And I have a chapter in my book called Fortress China,

731
00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:22,120
Speaker 4: and I think this is much more of a fortress mentality,

732
00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:25,800
Speaker 4: in which everything has to be about pursuing the semiconductors

733
00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:30,600
Speaker 4: and pursuing the batteries and making sure that social pressures

734
00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:34,839
Speaker 4: are not blowing off a lid. And I think that,

735
00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:39,000
Speaker 4: you know, it seems to me like the top levels

736
00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:42,479
Speaker 4: of the Communist Party is pretty comfortable with where things

737
00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:46,000
Speaker 4: are in spite of the collapse and property, in spite

738
00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:51,440
Speaker 4: of youth unemployment being almost twenty percent, because they're getting there,

739
00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:53,719
Speaker 4: they're having their wishes come true on the chips and

740
00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:56,520
Speaker 4: the batteries and on all of these high technology pursuits.

741
00:37:57,120 --> 00:38:01,719
Speaker 4: And you know, when President Trump visited Beijing, you know,

742
00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:06,320
Speaker 4: the the White House social media was you know, almost

743
00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:08,560
Speaker 4: treated Trump as a supplicant. You know, there was these

744
00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:11,680
Speaker 4: photos yeah, yeah, which she was pointing the way and

745
00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:14,120
Speaker 4: Donald Trump is kind of nodding along, and so you know,

746
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:16,440
Speaker 4: there's all of these things where this is much more

747
00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:19,800
Speaker 4: about great power versus great power, and in great power,

748
00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:22,160
Speaker 4: the little people don't really matter all that much, and

749
00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:25,040
Speaker 4: so this is much more about the elite. You know,

750
00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:29,399
Speaker 4: ten percent, one percent point one percent of the engineers

751
00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:32,640
Speaker 4: still being able to achieve everything that they want to achieve,

752
00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:35,080
Speaker 4: and all of these resources are funneled towards them, and

753
00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:37,600
Speaker 4: power is made really cheaply to them, and so you

754
00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:38,920
Speaker 4: know they want to pursue it.

755
00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:44,439
Speaker 2: So one thing we've talked about before is the lack

756
00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:47,680
Speaker 2: of cultural exports from China la boo boos.

757
00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:51,080
Speaker 3: Notwithstanding, I thought this was going to be the one.

758
00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:52,439
Speaker 3: I just thought this was going to be the one,

759
00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:53,880
Speaker 3: and that lasted about five minutes.

760
00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:56,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, what do you think is needed to sort of

761
00:38:57,200 --> 00:39:02,759
Speaker 2: unlock a cultural explosion in China? Because like the impulse

762
00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:04,160
Speaker 2: must be there, right.

763
00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:08,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, how about some marijuana and I don't think that

764
00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:09,200
Speaker 4: this is something that.

765
00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:11,799
Speaker 2: I didn't expect you to say that, But go.

766
00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:16,560
Speaker 4: On marijuana and the dropping of censorship, how about that?

767
00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:20,440
Speaker 4: And I don't think that is going to be real

768
00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:23,279
Speaker 4: anytime soon. So I was pretty deliberate on my trip

769
00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:25,640
Speaker 4: to Shanghai this time. I went to go see a

770
00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:28,799
Speaker 4: lot of stand up comedy in Shanghai, which is something

771
00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:31,600
Speaker 4: that's really booming. And so they have kind of more

772
00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:34,560
Speaker 4: of these online specials. Now which comics are you know

773
00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:39,360
Speaker 4: doing shows? And then offline is actually a real phenomenon

774
00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:41,399
Speaker 4: as well. And I went to shows, you know, one

775
00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:43,880
Speaker 4: of which was English speaking. I didn't choose that, but

776
00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:46,160
Speaker 4: it was just happened to be there that day. And

777
00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:49,719
Speaker 4: it was kind of these you know, American expats who

778
00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:53,440
Speaker 4: were English teachers mostly who were giving this show. And

779
00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:57,640
Speaker 4: for the most part, the audiences were amazing, like, you know,

780
00:39:57,719 --> 00:40:00,600
Speaker 4: they love to play along, you know, they they give

781
00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:03,759
Speaker 4: amazing joke answers back. I think the Chinese audience is

782
00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:07,920
Speaker 4: really really fun. Comics were not as funny as I hoped.

783
00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:10,000
Speaker 4: I mean, I don't see that much comedy in New

784
00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:12,920
Speaker 4: York and so it's not really good comparison. But the

785
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:16,560
Speaker 4: Chinese comic that I saw was essentially telling a series

786
00:40:16,640 --> 00:40:19,799
Speaker 4: of skits, and it wasn't It's not stand up as

787
00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:22,080
Speaker 4: I understand it. You know, he was essentially telling these

788
00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:24,879
Speaker 4: elaborate jokes which kind of he constructed, which didn't really

789
00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:27,920
Speaker 4: happen to him, and so it wasn't all that funny

790
00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:29,640
Speaker 4: to me. But I think like it would be great

791
00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:32,080
Speaker 4: if there were more Chinese jokes out there. But the

792
00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:36,839
Speaker 4: fact of Shanghai comedy was that something like three years ago,

793
00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:40,080
Speaker 4: one of this really big comic in China made a

794
00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:43,960
Speaker 4: pun of of one of these core military slogans. And

795
00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:48,040
Speaker 4: what happened. What happened to him? Well, all of these

796
00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:51,440
Speaker 4: comic clubs in Shanghai were shot for I think something

797
00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:54,840
Speaker 4: like four months, and they all closed down in Shanghai

798
00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:59,480
Speaker 4: and across these festivals, across all of these public performances,

799
00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:03,440
Speaker 4: the comics have to submit their scripts to the censors

800
00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:06,319
Speaker 4: before they can do their routine. And so how can

801
00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:08,920
Speaker 4: that possibly be not excellent for creativity?

802
00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:11,320
Speaker 3: You know? This actually gives me to one more question.

803
00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:13,920
Speaker 3: In addition, the other book that I read last year,

804
00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:16,480
Speaker 3: the other China book that I read last year was

805
00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:21,439
Speaker 3: the book about She's dead. Uh yeah, which is great

806
00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:24,719
Speaker 3: and I guess she's like you Hoover Institution colleague. And

807
00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:27,120
Speaker 3: one like my reading of that book, which I thought

808
00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:29,560
Speaker 3: was very interesting and it speaks directly to this, is

809
00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:32,880
Speaker 3: that one way to think about the sort of post

810
00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:36,680
Speaker 3: Mao era is how do you keep a hard line

811
00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:40,200
Speaker 3: while not tipping into true cultural revolution territory? And this

812
00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:43,040
Speaker 3: fear like because what you describe where it's like and

813
00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:44,799
Speaker 3: you know, there was a story in the Wall Street

814
00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:50,080
Speaker 3: Journal recently about Jeshin Ping cracking down on people who

815
00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:53,439
Speaker 3: are into mysticism and so forth and like, but it's

816
00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:55,600
Speaker 3: easy to see how these things spill over, right, because

817
00:41:55,640 --> 00:41:57,800
Speaker 3: if you're my boss and you tell me to stop

818
00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:00,279
Speaker 3: with the mysticism, then I'm going to bully the ten

819
00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:03,200
Speaker 3: people who are like a little bit mystical in my arena,

820
00:42:03,239 --> 00:42:05,960
Speaker 3: and then they'll, you know, and everyone replicates the bullying,

821
00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:08,759
Speaker 3: and then suddenly you're back in cultural revolution territory. Like

822
00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:11,960
Speaker 3: that seems how the way these things propagates me. And

823
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:14,600
Speaker 3: I'm sort of curious, like when we look at the

824
00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:17,319
Speaker 3: Fortress China that you talk about, do you think it's

825
00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:20,840
Speaker 3: inured from a future cultural revolution? At some point in

826
00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:22,880
Speaker 3: the future by the way these things propagate.

827
00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:24,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean this is quite a chain of dominoes

828
00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:28,760
Speaker 4: you've constructed, Choe. You know, first you take away everyone's

829
00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:32,120
Speaker 4: tarot cards, and then the cultural revolution erapts a little

830
00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:32,600
Speaker 4: bit later.

831
00:42:32,680 --> 00:42:35,120
Speaker 3: Well, everyone, you know, you take away my tarot cards.

832
00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:37,480
Speaker 3: Then I'm like going to prove that I'm even harsh

833
00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:40,040
Speaker 3: around the people I know who, like, you know, look

834
00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:41,200
Speaker 3: at astrology website.

835
00:42:41,239 --> 00:42:44,080
Speaker 4: Perhaps perhaps now I think that, you know, I think

836
00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:48,000
Speaker 4: that one. And I'm spending more time in Silicon Valley.

837
00:42:48,080 --> 00:42:50,520
Speaker 4: And you know, the opening line of my letter this

838
00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:53,799
Speaker 4: year is that one thing that Silicon Valley shares with

839
00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:57,680
Speaker 4: a Communist Party is that both are serious, self serious,

840
00:42:57,719 --> 00:43:01,200
Speaker 4: and indeed completely humorless. You know, the Central Committee is

841
00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:03,839
Speaker 4: not a bunch of yaks. And I think it is

842
00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:08,040
Speaker 4: our misfortune, our global misfortune, that we are ruled right

843
00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:10,319
Speaker 4: now by Silicon Valley on the one hand and the

844
00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:13,640
Speaker 4: Communist Party on the other. And these are completely humorless

845
00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:16,239
Speaker 4: people that are determining, that are kind of reshaping a

846
00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:18,040
Speaker 4: lot of what we buy and what we think, and

847
00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:20,600
Speaker 4: that is kind of kind of nuts to me. And

848
00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:22,760
Speaker 4: I think this is also why, you know, how great

849
00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:27,000
Speaker 4: are Silicon Valleys cultural exports. I don't know. I don't

850
00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:29,960
Speaker 4: think it's great products, and just like the Chinese and

851
00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:32,120
Speaker 4: there's some great products, I think there's going to be.

852
00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:36,799
Speaker 4: You know, Chinese marketing has not really kept up. You know,

853
00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:40,359
Speaker 4: we don't really have amazing associations with Chinese brands as such.

854
00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:43,080
Speaker 4: But I think that will change because the quality is

855
00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:45,719
Speaker 4: going to improve. But I think if you're looking for

856
00:43:46,040 --> 00:43:48,560
Speaker 4: any sort of a bottom up culture, it is still

857
00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:52,879
Speaker 4: remarkable how stunted Chinese cultural exports are relative to let's say,

858
00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:55,280
Speaker 4: the Koreans, with you know, all of this k Pops,

859
00:43:55,360 --> 00:43:57,880
Speaker 4: squid game, all of that. You have Americans who are

860
00:43:57,960 --> 00:44:00,480
Speaker 4: much more eager to study the Korean life language at

861
00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:03,359
Speaker 4: college now. I think that is actually out pacing people

862
00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:07,359
Speaker 4: studying Chinese in college now. So you know, China might

863
00:44:07,440 --> 00:44:09,680
Speaker 4: do much better, but I would say by any measure,

864
00:44:09,719 --> 00:44:12,440
Speaker 4: it is an underperformer relative to its population and its

865
00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:13,200
Speaker 4: economic growth.

866
00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:16,120
Speaker 2: All right, Dan Wong, thank you so much for coming

867
00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:18,920
Speaker 2: back on odd Lots and giving us the vibes the

868
00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:20,719
Speaker 2: vibes in China.

869
00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:22,520
Speaker 3: Thank you so much, Dan, that was fantastic.

870
00:44:22,600 --> 00:44:25,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, let's let's have some photo shoots in China, that

871
00:44:25,200 --> 00:44:27,759
Speaker 4: we'll get on some yaks, we'll look like Tibetans, and

872
00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:29,920
Speaker 4: then we'll have a we'll have a great time.

873
00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:32,560
Speaker 2: While drinking live Chief flavored coffee.

874
00:44:32,640 --> 00:44:35,400
Speaker 3: Right, and the three of us are going to do

875
00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:37,319
Speaker 3: a road trip one day. Absolutely, we're going to make

876
00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:39,120
Speaker 3: this happen. I can't wait. Thanks so much. That was great.

877
00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:56,359
Speaker 2: Always fun to catch up with Dan, Joe.

878
00:44:56,440 --> 00:44:58,239
Speaker 3: I love talking to Dan. And there was a different one.

879
00:44:58,239 --> 00:45:00,640
Speaker 3: You know, we didn't talk too much, like what is

880
00:45:00,719 --> 00:45:02,240
Speaker 3: the secret recipe of like batteries?

881
00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:04,320
Speaker 2: I like talking about projects.

882
00:45:04,360 --> 00:45:07,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, I like to talk about influencer culture. And then

883
00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:10,680
Speaker 3: that last anecdote about stand up comedy was really interesting

884
00:45:10,719 --> 00:45:11,080
Speaker 3: as well.

885
00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:16,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, so stand up comedy obviously very different in China

886
00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:19,000
Speaker 2: versus the US, although maybe the US is heading in

887
00:45:19,080 --> 00:45:23,440
Speaker 2: that trajectory in some ways. But what stood out to

888
00:45:23,440 --> 00:45:25,400
Speaker 2: me in that conversation is actually, like, there are a

889
00:45:25,440 --> 00:45:28,840
Speaker 2: lot of similarities I think between like some of the

890
00:45:28,880 --> 00:45:33,080
Speaker 2: cultural or not cultural social on we that we have

891
00:45:33,560 --> 00:45:36,279
Speaker 2: we seem to have in the US and the what

892
00:45:36,320 --> 00:45:40,680
Speaker 2: did Dan call it silent discontent or quiet discontent in China?

893
00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:43,120
Speaker 3: You know, I'm just sorry before going on to that,

894
00:45:44,120 --> 00:45:47,440
Speaker 3: I don't follow. I happen to follow a I think

895
00:45:47,480 --> 00:45:52,600
Speaker 3: she's Kyrgystani stand up comic on Instagram, and it's really

896
00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:56,719
Speaker 3: funny because she like makes these jokes about like other

897
00:45:56,880 --> 00:45:59,600
Speaker 3: like distinct ethnic pockets with a you know, it's like

898
00:45:59,800 --> 00:46:02,880
Speaker 3: so some men do this and stuff like that. Anyway,

899
00:46:02,920 --> 00:46:05,719
Speaker 3: I like seeing like these these patterns like replicated all

900
00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:07,799
Speaker 3: around the world. But I do think this is very

901
00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:11,120
Speaker 3: interesting that there are certainly like i'd say, the collapse

902
00:46:11,120 --> 00:46:13,520
Speaker 3: of fertility. They say that's a pathology in some way

903
00:46:13,640 --> 00:46:15,680
Speaker 3: or something like that, or everyone like these are like

904
00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:20,360
Speaker 3: these are global phenomenons, and maybe the East Asian countries

905
00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:24,000
Speaker 3: are just sort of like the most further along down

906
00:46:24,040 --> 00:46:28,800
Speaker 3: this trajectory for one reason or another. The phone stuff,

907
00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:31,120
Speaker 3: the influencer it doesn't And then also you know, and

908
00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:33,480
Speaker 3: I remember we we did that episode earlier this year

909
00:46:33,480 --> 00:46:37,640
Speaker 3: about like the Chinese Internet and like people, oh, there's

910
00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:41,000
Speaker 3: like this more nationalist flavor that's the same here. I know,

911
00:46:41,120 --> 00:46:44,000
Speaker 3: So it does I think to your point, like the Virgins, Yeah,

912
00:46:44,080 --> 00:46:48,000
Speaker 3: there's sort of like cultural global cultural convergence that everyone

913
00:46:48,080 --> 00:46:50,399
Speaker 3: is sort of regarding in I guess what I would

914
00:46:50,440 --> 00:46:54,920
Speaker 3: say is even in very different economic conditions. There's this

915
00:46:55,040 --> 00:46:58,520
Speaker 3: sort of cultural convergence happening, and you say, it's like, Okay,

916
00:46:58,600 --> 00:47:02,279
Speaker 3: the Chinese economy is like clearly done so well from

917
00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:07,239
Speaker 3: a standpoint of lifting people out of poverty and material abundance,

918
00:47:07,480 --> 00:47:10,600
Speaker 3: so so well over the last ten twenty thirty years,

919
00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:13,480
Speaker 3: obviously better than any other country in the world. And

920
00:47:13,520 --> 00:47:18,040
Speaker 3: the fact that it's still roughly replicating the same moods,

921
00:47:18,080 --> 00:47:20,120
Speaker 3: et cetera as anywhere else. I just think it's a

922
00:47:20,239 --> 00:47:23,840
Speaker 3: very like Claude would say, a point to sit with

923
00:47:23,960 --> 00:47:24,520
Speaker 3: for a moment.

924
00:47:25,440 --> 00:47:26,480
Speaker 2: All right, shall we leave it there?

925
00:47:26,600 --> 00:47:27,239
Speaker 3: Let's leave it there.

926
00:47:27,320 --> 00:47:29,640
Speaker 2: This has been another episode at the Odd Lots podcast.

927
00:47:29,719 --> 00:47:32,440
Speaker 2: I'm Tracy Alloway. You can follow me at Tracy Alloway

928
00:47:32,640 --> 00:47:33,120
Speaker 2: and I'm.

929
00:47:33,040 --> 00:47:35,120
Speaker 3: Joe Wise and thought you could follow me at the Stalwart.

930
00:47:35,200 --> 00:47:37,839
Speaker 3: Follow our guest Dan Wong, He's at Dan w Wong.

931
00:47:38,120 --> 00:47:41,239
Speaker 3: Follow our producers Carmen Rodriguez at Carman armand dash, El

932
00:47:41,239 --> 00:47:44,840
Speaker 3: Bennett at Dashbot, cal Brooks at Kelbrooks, and Kevin Losano

933
00:47:44,920 --> 00:47:47,640
Speaker 3: at Kevin Lloyd Losano and form our odd Laws content

934
00:47:47,840 --> 00:47:50,640
Speaker 3: at Boomberg dot com, slash odd Lots or the daily newsletter,

935
00:47:50,680 --> 00:47:52,799
Speaker 3: and all of our episodes and you can set about

936
00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:55,280
Speaker 3: all of these topics twenty four seven in our discord

937
00:47:55,600 --> 00:47:58,160
Speaker 3: Discord dot gig slash Oddlines And.

938
00:47:58,120 --> 00:47:59,920
Speaker 2: If you enjoy odd Lots, if you want us to

939
00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:03,000
Speaker 2: you a road trip through Unan with Dan Wong, then

940
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941
00:48:06,680 --> 00:48:09,680
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00:48:09,719 --> 00:48:12,839
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