WEBVTT - Donna Schaper, Radical Reverend 0:00:03.160 --> 0:00:06.440 I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the thing. 0:00:07.480 --> 0:00:11.600 The Reverend Donna Scopper spends most days doing what any 0:00:11.760 --> 0:00:16.600 pastor does. She baptizes, she marries, she gives last rites. 0:00:17.280 --> 0:00:21.880 But she's famous for her more worldly work. Scopper is 0:00:21.960 --> 0:00:24.920 one of the most prominent members of the so called 0:00:25.040 --> 0:00:30.040 religious left. Are in the business of sinners, that's her 0:00:30.240 --> 0:00:34.320 on Fox News arguing with Bill O'Riley, That's that's ridiculous. 0:00:34.680 --> 0:00:38.440 We I'm just asking. She brings God fearlessly into the 0:00:38.479 --> 0:00:43.560 public sphere to counter religious conservatives with messengers like them. 0:00:43.640 --> 0:00:48.000 She says, no wonder nonbelievers are the fastest growing segment 0:00:48.080 --> 0:00:54.360 of American society. Scopper believes that the Christian God is 0:00:54.400 --> 0:00:59.360 not punishmentalist. She believes that Christian salvation is a joyous 0:00:59.720 --> 0:01:03.400 and universal liberation, and she came of age at the 0:01:03.400 --> 0:01:07.640 height of nineteen sixties radicalism, so she takes that liberation 0:01:07.760 --> 0:01:11.679 to the streets. She was trained by Saul Alinsky and 0:01:11.760 --> 0:01:16.720 has been arrested for civil disobedience, so, of course, her church, 0:01:17.000 --> 0:01:23.000 Judson Memorial in Greenwich Village welcomes sex workers, militant atheists, 0:01:23.160 --> 0:01:27.759 LGBT folk, and the undocumented, and not just for worship. 0:01:28.120 --> 0:01:31.200 It is a church. Plus, it's a church of around 0:01:31.200 --> 0:01:35.440 three hundred people who worship every Sunday and fairly traditional ways. 0:01:36.280 --> 0:01:41.160 And it's also a place where about people from the 0:01:41.200 --> 0:01:44.759 community come through a week, mostly undocumented people. Right now, 0:01:45.400 --> 0:01:48.760 a lot of sex workers Extinction Rebellion is meeting in 0:01:48.800 --> 0:01:52.040 the basement Occupy moved in for a couple of years. 0:01:52.240 --> 0:01:54.840 Is that kind of place. It's like the wee work 0:01:54.960 --> 0:01:58.080 of a radical left. Yes, And we try to throw 0:01:58.120 --> 0:02:01.240 them out as quickly as possible, do you yes, because 0:02:01.280 --> 0:02:03.160 we want to make room for the new and the next. 0:02:03.400 --> 0:02:05.680 That's our job. And one of you of a theory 0:02:05.680 --> 0:02:07.840 you mean, I wonder if you are the Feds across 0:02:08.080 --> 0:02:11.200 the park over by the restrooms there in the little building, 0:02:11.480 --> 0:02:14.600 they were for a while, and we spotted them and 0:02:14.919 --> 0:02:19.080 they stopped Our executive director and really the founder of 0:02:19.120 --> 0:02:22.040 the sanctuary movement in this era is a man named 0:02:22.120 --> 0:02:25.440 Robbie rug Beyer, who has a case in federal court 0:02:26.120 --> 0:02:30.240 because they've been harassing him forever. And they also picked 0:02:30.280 --> 0:02:32.840 up another man who was a leader, Jean Montraville, and 0:02:32.880 --> 0:02:37.200 deported him. Because they punish you for being an activist today. 0:02:37.480 --> 0:02:40.640 That's what it's come to under this administration. Well, before 0:02:40.680 --> 0:02:43.240 we get to the path you were on that led 0:02:43.240 --> 0:02:45.959 you to this kind of work. When you took over Judson, 0:02:46.000 --> 0:02:48.680 that was two thousand five. And were you in New 0:02:48.720 --> 0:02:50.720 York for several years prior to that? Are you arrived 0:02:50.720 --> 0:02:53.200 in New York right now? I was in Miami before that, 0:02:53.480 --> 0:02:56.920 in a Judson kind of church in Miami. And how 0:02:56.960 --> 0:03:00.360 would you describe the people who came to these facilities? Um? 0:03:00.520 --> 0:03:05.680 Always the outsiders, Always people who were uncertain about religion, 0:03:05.880 --> 0:03:10.200 uncertain about God, but had a strong sense of righteousness 0:03:10.240 --> 0:03:13.720 and spirit and wanted to make something happen. They weren't 0:03:13.720 --> 0:03:15.680 fooling around, and they knew they needed to be in 0:03:15.760 --> 0:03:20.080 community to do it. They needed I call it spiritual 0:03:20.160 --> 0:03:23.840 nurture for public capacity. They're just something that they're seeking. 0:03:24.400 --> 0:03:29.040 And our congregation is probably a third agnostic, a third atheist, 0:03:29.639 --> 0:03:34.360 and a third recovering Baptists. You know, people who know 0:03:34.520 --> 0:03:36.960 the hymns, know the prayers, love it, you know, need 0:03:37.000 --> 0:03:40.400 to go to church on Sunday. But really no, they 0:03:40.440 --> 0:03:42.760 don't really buy it. So I have to be very 0:03:42.800 --> 0:03:45.880 careful with God talk. Um, it's become dropping the G 0:03:46.120 --> 0:03:50.480 bomb I call it sometimes because everybody on the left 0:03:50.520 --> 0:03:53.680 is allergic to religion. Everybody on the left is allergic 0:03:53.760 --> 0:03:56.320 to God language. Do you think that's sad? I think 0:03:56.360 --> 0:04:00.200 it's stupid. Um, It's different than sad. It's a m 0:04:00.200 --> 0:04:03.600 of ignorance and prejudice. The left is not immune to 0:04:03.840 --> 0:04:09.000 ignorance and prejudice, unfortunately, if I've experienced that myself, Now, 0:04:09.320 --> 0:04:12.640 what was your childhood like in that way? My childhood 0:04:12.720 --> 0:04:17.840 was with the warm fundamentalists, the Missouri sind Lutherans. And 0:04:17.920 --> 0:04:23.200 I got God. I got God through Pastor Witty. I 0:04:23.240 --> 0:04:26.080 think I was six. My father was beating up my 0:04:26.160 --> 0:04:30.839 mother and I called Pastor Witty and he came in 0:04:31.080 --> 0:04:35.159 his black cassock and he said, Donald, stop that, don't 0:04:35.279 --> 0:04:40.719 do it anymore. So when I saw a Pastor Whitty 0:04:41.279 --> 0:04:43.920 show up, I said, I'm going to dedicate my life 0:04:43.920 --> 0:04:47.840 to keeping little girls safe. And I started baptizing my dolls. 0:04:47.920 --> 0:04:52.840 I started giving them communion, and both of my grandmother said, Donna, 0:04:53.040 --> 0:04:56.320 stop that, you can't be a pastor. It's only for boys. 0:04:56.480 --> 0:05:01.239 And I said, oh, no, no way, not if it's true, 0:05:01.480 --> 0:05:05.360 not if it's good. Right, So I fought my way 0:05:05.360 --> 0:05:08.000 into it. What did your father do for a living? 0:05:08.640 --> 0:05:12.320 He was a custodian in a garment factory. How many 0:05:12.400 --> 0:05:15.320 kids in the family. Three, I'm the oldest, and then 0:05:15.360 --> 0:05:18.119 my sisters three years younger, and my baby brother wasn't 0:05:18.120 --> 0:05:21.280 born when this happened. So they stayed together after I 0:05:21.360 --> 0:05:25.000 had another kid. They stayed together until she finally walked 0:05:25.000 --> 0:05:28.599 out on him. Um after my begging her to do it. 0:05:30.520 --> 0:05:33.440 What's the path from baptizing your dolls to becoming you? 0:05:33.440 --> 0:05:37.680 Go to you? You went to college in get nice 0:05:37.760 --> 0:05:42.200 Lutheran College. You know, feminism was just coming on, and 0:05:42.320 --> 0:05:46.000 I basically it's such a long story, but I got 0:05:46.000 --> 0:05:48.760 a scholarship to go to the University of Chicago Divinity 0:05:48.760 --> 0:05:55.080 School because my then husband, Bob Scopper, was avoiding the 0:05:55.160 --> 0:05:58.279 draft by getting a Rockefeller fellowship to go to seminary. 0:05:58.360 --> 0:05:59.680 That was one of the ways you could do it. 0:06:00.600 --> 0:06:03.280 And I called up the school and said, you know, 0:06:04.040 --> 0:06:07.600 I'm the one who ought to be going here, not him. 0:06:07.640 --> 0:06:10.080 Why don't you let me come to And they had 0:06:10.160 --> 0:06:13.839 just hired the first woman professor and her one of 0:06:13.880 --> 0:06:18.840 the conditions of her employment at this prestigious place was 0:06:18.920 --> 0:06:21.040 to say, I need three scholarships for three women. There 0:06:21.040 --> 0:06:23.640 are no women in this class. So they put me 0:06:23.680 --> 0:06:26.800 through to a woman named Peggy anne Way and I 0:06:26.839 --> 0:06:30.880 got a scholarship. Bob dropped out in a year, became 0:06:31.000 --> 0:06:34.479 very depressed by the moral dilemma he had faced because 0:06:34.480 --> 0:06:38.280 he knew he was it wasn't quite right. But he 0:06:38.279 --> 0:06:40.640 also couldn't go to Vietnam. He had a very low number. 0:06:41.200 --> 0:06:43.200 I don't know if you remember that time before. It's 0:06:43.200 --> 0:06:47.800 heavy for a lot of men. So I stuck. And 0:06:47.880 --> 0:06:50.480 then the Lutheran said, we don't know ordaine women. Are 0:06:50.480 --> 0:06:53.680 you crazy? And I said, well, no, I'm not. And 0:06:53.800 --> 0:06:56.040 they kept sending me back to seminary to get more 0:06:56.080 --> 0:06:59.119 courses in luther because they didn't know how to say 0:06:59.760 --> 0:07:02.719 the real issue is that we don't ordain women. So 0:07:03.680 --> 0:07:06.200 there was a big sinid out in Minneapolis, and I 0:07:06.360 --> 0:07:09.120 and two other women who were the first three prepared 0:07:09.440 --> 0:07:12.160 to be ordained by the Lutherans, ended up on the 0:07:12.200 --> 0:07:15.480 front page of the paper um and we were all 0:07:15.520 --> 0:07:19.120 then banished. They did ordain women, but they weren't going 0:07:19.160 --> 0:07:22.120 to ordain us because we were troublemakers. So I just 0:07:22.120 --> 0:07:25.080 switched to another denomination, the United Church of Christ, where 0:07:25.120 --> 0:07:29.440 I've been very happy and you were ordained when nineteen 0:07:29.600 --> 0:07:34.680 seventy three in Tucson, Arizona, and they wouldn't allow the 0:07:34.800 --> 0:07:37.560 nuns who were parts of my friends. You know, ordination 0:07:37.680 --> 0:07:41.280 is a ceremony of laying on of hands, and I 0:07:41.320 --> 0:07:44.040 was appalled at the notion of all those men me 0:07:44.160 --> 0:07:48.480 kneeling down and then laying hands on that. I requested 0:07:48.520 --> 0:07:52.400 that my nuns women's group be allowed to also lay 0:07:52.440 --> 0:07:57.440 on hands, and the association the denomination said no. So 0:07:57.600 --> 0:08:00.960 we all bought pink underwear and wore the to the ordination, 0:08:01.160 --> 0:08:03.920 and when it was time for the laying on of hands, 0:08:04.000 --> 0:08:07.040 all the nuns came up, moved right to the front 0:08:07.640 --> 0:08:10.440 and laid on hand. There wasn't anything they can do 0:08:10.480 --> 0:08:16.119 about it. Judson had a Mass, that's Catholic Mass said 0:08:16.200 --> 0:08:20.440 by self ordained priests. Correct, Judson, we have we have 0:08:20.640 --> 0:08:24.840 five different congregations worshiping in the building. When are they um? 0:08:25.040 --> 0:08:28.600 There's a thing called lab Shool, which is an experimental 0:08:28.680 --> 0:08:32.760 Jewish congregation saying praxed Us, which is the Roman Catholic 0:08:32.800 --> 0:08:38.400 women who self ordained who worship another is a restoration 0:08:38.480 --> 0:08:41.840 Temple which is a queer people of color congregation which 0:08:41.880 --> 0:08:46.040 is very evangelical US. And then we had an organization 0:08:46.080 --> 0:08:49.199 called the Muslim Community Network for a while. What's the 0:08:49.240 --> 0:08:51.960 one you have mass for sex workers you tell me about. Yes, 0:08:52.080 --> 0:08:56.000 we do that, and also for opioid users, but they're episodic, 0:08:56.120 --> 0:08:59.920 they're not congregational. So the mass for sex workers are 0:09:00.040 --> 0:09:02.400 the people that what they're seeking as privacy, they want 0:09:02.400 --> 0:09:04.880 to be able to have COMPETENTI reality when they they 0:09:04.960 --> 0:09:09.520 wanted probably more space to organize than to pray. But 0:09:10.400 --> 0:09:14.160 we had Stormy Daniels people in a while back, which 0:09:14.240 --> 0:09:17.880 was really fun. She didn't come, but she sent things. 0:09:18.880 --> 0:09:21.960 We had Pleasure Sunday a while back. You know, we're 0:09:22.000 --> 0:09:24.880 trying to be on the edge and not be conceited 0:09:24.920 --> 0:09:27.800 about it and wants to find the people who are 0:09:27.880 --> 0:09:31.920 outside of religion and have them tell us who God is. 0:09:32.840 --> 0:09:36.440 We live in a time now. I never hear anybody 0:09:36.440 --> 0:09:40.520 talk about God. I never hear anybody talk about faith 0:09:40.960 --> 0:09:42.920 when you're read a dinner conversation. No, I don't need 0:09:42.960 --> 0:09:47.840 that to be some you know, obvious thing or very 0:09:47.960 --> 0:09:51.280 or very uh yeah, I mean, but it's like you 0:09:51.360 --> 0:09:55.360 never hear politicians talk about peace anymore, and I never 0:09:55.400 --> 0:09:58.559 hear people talk about God anymore. And yet I talked 0:09:58.600 --> 0:10:03.400 to God instantly. Most people do constantly. I mean, in 0:10:03.480 --> 0:10:06.120 my head, I'm saying, there going, but please let me 0:10:06.160 --> 0:10:08.520 get this right. Please, that wouldn't give me something that 0:10:08.600 --> 0:10:10.800 I want. Please let me just get through this without 0:10:10.840 --> 0:10:15.600 any problems. Call down me down, we will focus me. 0:10:16.160 --> 0:10:18.000 I would sit there. I wrote this in this book 0:10:18.000 --> 0:10:19.959 I wrote about my I wrote a book that was 0:10:20.000 --> 0:10:25.000 basically a screed against the California family law system. When 0:10:25.040 --> 0:10:27.520 I was going through my custody battle from my older daughter. 0:10:28.240 --> 0:10:30.760 I remember I would sit on up in a plane 0:10:31.360 --> 0:10:34.200 and I leaned my head against a window, and I 0:10:34.200 --> 0:10:38.040 would say, please let this trip with my daughter be pleasant. 0:10:38.600 --> 0:10:41.800 I don't want anything. The idea was I would just 0:10:41.920 --> 0:10:44.000 lean my head on a window of an airplane and say, 0:10:44.040 --> 0:10:47.920 please just let this weekend go well. Everybody just is happy. 0:10:48.280 --> 0:10:50.920 I said, let this weekend be normal. I wrote that 0:10:50.960 --> 0:10:52.720 in the book. Not that we're going to go have 0:10:52.920 --> 0:10:55.800 like some fizzy entertainment. Let it just be normal. We 0:10:55.840 --> 0:10:58.680 all just get along. Everybody's fairly happy. And every time 0:10:58.720 --> 0:11:02.240 I made that prayer, it happy and nice, I guess, 0:11:02.240 --> 0:11:04.600 because I was requesting something that was in line with 0:11:04.600 --> 0:11:07.000 what some other power wanted me to have in my life, 0:11:07.120 --> 0:11:11.440 but in line with the power's intention right in your lifetime. 0:11:11.880 --> 0:11:15.000 What do you attribute the I mean beyond you know, 0:11:15.120 --> 0:11:17.240 scandals and for the Catholics and stuff forth, and I 0:11:17.240 --> 0:11:20.080 know that their numbers are going down dramatically, what are 0:11:20.080 --> 0:11:25.360 you attributed to which have led us to this godless society? 0:11:26.280 --> 0:11:29.040 So it's a really good question. And the sex scandals 0:11:29.080 --> 0:11:33.800 do matter tremendously, even though there's an ancient heresy that 0:11:33.960 --> 0:11:37.000 says the bread is good even if the giver is not. 0:11:37.760 --> 0:11:41.120 Just because the priest is a bastard doesn't mean religion 0:11:41.600 --> 0:11:46.480 is wrong. It's important, very important, and it's been well 0:11:46.480 --> 0:11:50.360 thought out for centuries. But that being said, I think 0:11:52.400 --> 0:11:56.600 I think the evangelicals have given God a very bad name, 0:11:57.679 --> 0:12:02.760 and it's it's the way they are to call it punishmentalism, 0:12:02.800 --> 0:12:06.880 and it's the punishing God. So they've got God wrong 0:12:07.320 --> 0:12:10.760 in a very fundamental way. And so people just they're 0:12:10.760 --> 0:12:14.400 getting blamed and shamed enough and at work, at school, 0:12:15.360 --> 0:12:18.200 they don't need to God who's like that. So the 0:12:18.200 --> 0:12:21.240 good news is God isn't like that. Um I just 0:12:21.280 --> 0:12:26.240 did a sermon out in Orient last weekend about the 0:12:26.280 --> 0:12:30.720 difference between sweet braid and sage. So sage is this 0:12:30.800 --> 0:12:33.160 thing that's lots of people have in their houses, and 0:12:33.240 --> 0:12:37.760 it's an ancient native custom of dispelling the bad spirits. 0:12:37.800 --> 0:12:40.160 So people will move into a new house, so they'll 0:12:40.679 --> 0:12:43.679 go to a a and they'll dispel the bad spirits 0:12:43.720 --> 0:12:48.160 that are driving them crazy. Sweet braid isn't also an 0:12:48.240 --> 0:12:55.280 ancient ritual, simple household ritual of bringing in good energy. 0:12:56.120 --> 0:13:02.040 I'm on the side of religion that calls up positive energy, 0:13:02.320 --> 0:13:05.520 not the kind that dispels the bad energy. So no 0:13:05.640 --> 0:13:11.480 stage all sweet bread for me. Do all the organized 0:13:11.520 --> 0:13:16.400 religions in the world have something that you admire and respect? Well? 0:13:17.040 --> 0:13:21.480 When I pray in public, which I often do, I say, God, 0:13:21.559 --> 0:13:24.760 you whom some call Jesus, another called Christ, you whom 0:13:24.840 --> 0:13:28.680 some call Allah, and others called breath You beyond the 0:13:28.760 --> 0:13:33.960 captivity of any human name or force, draw near and 0:13:34.280 --> 0:13:37.800 bless us on our way to finding some piece of 0:13:37.880 --> 0:13:42.560 You today. And I really mean that prayer. Uh. We're 0:13:42.600 --> 0:13:47.160 struggling for our lives as movements. UM. I have founded 0:13:47.160 --> 0:13:50.000 this little organization in New York called bricks and mortals, 0:13:50.520 --> 0:13:54.199 which is about changing up the sacred sites so that 0:13:54.240 --> 0:13:58.880 they can be more useful. And it means remove the 0:13:58.920 --> 0:14:02.959 pews from your head, your spiritual head first, and get 0:14:03.160 --> 0:14:07.120 get over being right about God. So I'm married to 0:14:07.160 --> 0:14:10.760 a Jew. I have three kids who practice Judayoism. Your 0:14:10.840 --> 0:14:14.079 children are Jewish? Yes, my son is married to a rabbi. 0:14:14.240 --> 0:14:17.320 He walks around Brooklyn wearing a t shirt that he 0:14:17.360 --> 0:14:20.920 had made and it says, my mother as a minister, 0:14:21.040 --> 0:14:23.640 My wife's a rabbi. Get over it. There was never 0:14:23.680 --> 0:14:27.160 any discussion of them coming to your side of the aisle, 0:14:27.240 --> 0:14:29.920 so to speak. Warren and I decided that the first 0:14:29.920 --> 0:14:33.400 seven years they'd get immersed in Christianity and the next 0:14:33.400 --> 0:14:37.320 seven years they get immersed in Judaism. So they were 0:14:37.800 --> 0:14:40.720 Actually when my mother left my father we were talking 0:14:40.760 --> 0:14:43.680 about her before. It was at my twins bar Mitzvahs 0:14:43.720 --> 0:14:46.920 bar in bat Mitzvah, and my father went into one 0:14:46.920 --> 0:14:49.440 of his fits and said, I don't want to be 0:14:49.480 --> 0:14:51.600 around all those rich Jews. And she said I don't 0:14:51.600 --> 0:14:53.320 want to be married to a bigot anymore, and she 0:14:53.400 --> 0:14:58.440 walked and she never went back. Now, I said that 0:14:58.480 --> 0:15:00.880 when I went through the darkest parts of my child 0:15:00.960 --> 0:15:04.000 custody with my daughter, I said, I'm just gonna go 0:15:04.200 --> 0:15:06.120 into the woods and message I'm gonna drive up to 0:15:06.160 --> 0:15:08.000 the Birchers and Mike into the woods and just blow 0:15:08.080 --> 0:15:09.720 my brains out. And I said, nobody will find me 0:15:09.760 --> 0:15:13.080 for at least a couple of weeks. And I wanted 0:15:13.120 --> 0:15:16.920 to come back from this horrible depression that I had, 0:15:17.880 --> 0:15:22.200 and um, I will sit with my priest, who is 0:15:22.240 --> 0:15:26.720 a dear friend of mine, older men. He's ninety three now, 0:15:27.560 --> 0:15:29.480 and he's one of three or four men over the 0:15:29.520 --> 0:15:33.080 years who's kept me coming back to pray and to 0:15:33.240 --> 0:15:36.640 ask for the strength to deal with this. And this 0:15:36.800 --> 0:15:42.440 because going back to church, going back to sit with 0:15:42.480 --> 0:15:45.040 these men and talk to them privately, we'd have meals. 0:15:45.040 --> 0:15:46.840 I bring food over to the place and we'd sit 0:15:46.880 --> 0:15:52.200 down and have lunch out here. And all of them 0:15:52.480 --> 0:15:56.680 don't see the change that I see coming for the church, 0:15:56.840 --> 0:16:00.000 a dying Catholic church, and I don't want to focus 0:16:00.000 --> 0:16:03.320 only a Catholicism here. I said to them, you do 0:16:03.440 --> 0:16:06.160 see married clergy coming, And they said, oh, yes, it's 0:16:06.200 --> 0:16:10.320 it's it's it's not you know what christ wantity, wanted celibacy, 0:16:10.480 --> 0:16:12.800 but we're realizing, you know, whatever their words were about 0:16:12.800 --> 0:16:16.120 the impracticality of that. Then I said, and if you 0:16:16.240 --> 0:16:19.200 saw like a gunshot their reaction to this, I said, 0:16:19.240 --> 0:16:21.760 now what about women? Clear before I even finished the phrase, 0:16:21.920 --> 0:16:25.360 they went no, no, no, no no no no no 0:16:25.360 --> 0:16:30.080 no no, and they shot that down so fast. Why 0:16:30.120 --> 0:16:34.440 do you think that is why? It's just so? I 0:16:34.480 --> 0:16:37.280 wrote a book about this called I Heart You Francis 0:16:37.720 --> 0:16:41.960 Love Letters from a Reluctant Admirer, and I got I 0:16:42.040 --> 0:16:44.840 got a letter back from him, and in the book, 0:16:45.320 --> 0:16:48.440 I argued, because I was totally Twitter painted with this 0:16:48.480 --> 0:16:51.000 guy when he first came in, I just fell in 0:16:51.040 --> 0:16:53.440 love with him. So I decided to write him love letters, 0:16:53.680 --> 0:16:59.160 and and I said, your own beautiful internal logic about 0:16:59.200 --> 0:17:04.919 mother Earth and ecology. I think he's the smartest ecological 0:17:05.200 --> 0:17:09.560 environmental thinker we have. And his entire thing is, let's 0:17:09.600 --> 0:17:14.000 re sacrilize all of the earth, and when we re 0:17:14.240 --> 0:17:17.760 sacrilize it, we won't be able to pollute it the 0:17:17.800 --> 0:17:21.480 way we do. And I think that's true, I really do. 0:17:22.520 --> 0:17:26.680 So I said, your own internal arguments are certainly going 0:17:26.760 --> 0:17:31.280 to lead you to ordain women have married priests, ordain 0:17:31.359 --> 0:17:37.080 gay people, and be so much less punishing and rigid 0:17:37.400 --> 0:17:41.240 in your point of view. And none of that happened. 0:17:41.840 --> 0:17:44.720 And all my Catholic friends said, Donna, that's the craziest 0:17:44.720 --> 0:17:48.639 book you've ever written. It's really really naive. What happened 0:17:48.640 --> 0:17:50.800 to you? You stupid or something? And I said, no, 0:17:50.960 --> 0:17:54.000 I actually believe it. And I still believe it. So 0:17:54.960 --> 0:17:57.800 as long as the Catholics think no, no, no about 0:17:57.960 --> 0:18:02.200 ordaining women, I think they have missed the Jesus boat 0:18:03.400 --> 0:18:07.000 so far that they're just not going to make sense 0:18:07.000 --> 0:18:12.760 to people. And that's a real shame. United Church of 0:18:12.880 --> 0:18:18.400 Christ Minister Donna Scopper another, here's the thing, guests who 0:18:18.400 --> 0:18:22.639 wrestles with questions of faith is Lawrence Right. He writes 0:18:22.680 --> 0:18:25.359 about the darker side of religion for The New Yorker 0:18:25.440 --> 0:18:29.000 magazine and in his book Going Clear, in which he 0:18:29.080 --> 0:18:33.560 documents the Church of Scientology's efforts to convert young actors 0:18:33.640 --> 0:18:36.480 in Hollywood. Your friends are going off, they're going to 0:18:36.520 --> 0:18:39.040 get law degrees and stuff like that, and you are 0:18:39.480 --> 0:18:42.280 out in you know, Hollywood, eating dog food, hoping to 0:18:42.280 --> 0:18:46.920 be a movie star. There's a sense of inadequacy alongcome scientologists, 0:18:47.080 --> 0:18:49.440 which says you will learn the secrets of the universe 0:18:49.480 --> 0:18:52.880 and you'll acquire superhuman powers. And if you're a young 0:18:53.040 --> 0:18:56.320 actor standing out in central casting, they'll be passing out 0:18:56.320 --> 0:18:59.000 brochure saying how to get an agent, how to get 0:18:59.000 --> 0:19:03.560 ahead in the business, Come to the Celebrity Center. Lawrence 0:19:03.680 --> 0:19:08.240 Right discusses his other stories in our archive at Here's 0:19:08.280 --> 0:19:12.359 the Thing dot Org. Donna Scopper returns in a moment. 0:19:25.000 --> 0:19:28.840 The Reverend Donna Scopper of Judson Memorial Church in New 0:19:28.960 --> 0:19:33.760 York comes by her radical activism. Honestly, she studied with 0:19:33.800 --> 0:19:37.040 the great rabble rouser Saul Alinsky, who got wind of 0:19:37.119 --> 0:19:40.720 Scopper while she was sort of attending the University of 0:19:40.800 --> 0:19:45.840 Chicago Divinity School. The first day we went to class, 0:19:46.960 --> 0:19:50.159 we all just said it was bs and went on strike. 0:19:50.720 --> 0:19:54.359 So we came up with this song that to Alice's 0:19:54.400 --> 0:19:57.639 restaurant and camped out in the chapel and that you 0:19:57.800 --> 0:20:01.119 can bullshit any time you feel. Let the smell don't 0:20:01.240 --> 0:20:05.400 make you reel. And Saul was right around the corner, 0:20:06.480 --> 0:20:08.880 came and helped us organize it, and there was a 0:20:08.960 --> 0:20:14.320 mass graduate student sort of walk out. It was really 0:20:14.359 --> 0:20:21.760 really interesting and kind of adolescence and embarrassing. UM and 0:20:23.040 --> 0:20:27.199 Saul started teaching us, and I was really excited about 0:20:27.320 --> 0:20:30.520 organizing and really cut my teeth on the South side 0:20:30.560 --> 0:20:34.320 of Chicago with him for about a year, and then 0:20:34.359 --> 0:20:38.360 I realized that he was really sexist in his understanding 0:20:38.400 --> 0:20:43.960 of power. Today we would call it instrumental. You know, 0:20:44.640 --> 0:20:49.760 hurt those guys, make an enemy, kill them. How do 0:20:49.800 --> 0:20:52.320 you get power? You you wait for the people in power, 0:20:53.000 --> 0:20:56.240 all of whom are bad and evil, to make a mistake, 0:20:56.400 --> 0:20:59.640 and then you, JOm, I got them. And so it's 0:20:59.680 --> 0:21:04.439 just masculine. So I wrote this paper in which I 0:21:04.480 --> 0:21:07.120 pointed out that I don't think women would organize that way. 0:21:08.480 --> 0:21:11.880 H nor did I think Christians would organize that way. 0:21:12.280 --> 0:21:15.280 Jesus is the one who he refused to have an enemy, 0:21:16.040 --> 0:21:19.119 even though he called out power all the time. I mean, 0:21:19.200 --> 0:21:23.160 it's a beautifully hard dance, you know, because you can 0:21:23.240 --> 0:21:25.919 make more change if you can declare an enemy, you 0:21:25.920 --> 0:21:29.679 can really get very far. But when you're there and 0:21:29.720 --> 0:21:34.679 you're ministering, how do you get them to refuse to 0:21:34.760 --> 0:21:37.280 make an enemy? Because when you drop your guard, you 0:21:37.320 --> 0:21:39.600 feel like a chump. I'm in a lot of trouble 0:21:39.720 --> 0:21:43.440 right now for saying to the Me Too movement that 0:21:43.600 --> 0:21:49.679 I just don't think we can demonize people. People just 0:21:49.800 --> 0:21:52.800 get angry about it and will tell you the victim regardless. 0:21:52.840 --> 0:21:56.320 Just believe the victims. Start with that, and I can 0:21:56.440 --> 0:21:58.880 even believe the victim. But I still want to know 0:21:58.920 --> 0:22:02.679 what's going to happen to the person over there, you 0:22:02.720 --> 0:22:05.080 know what happens to the rest of your life. You 0:22:05.160 --> 0:22:09.800 can't say that you're for decarceration and then throw the 0:22:09.840 --> 0:22:13.240 book at other people. You just can't do it that way. 0:22:13.240 --> 0:22:17.359 And I'm totally opposed to decarceration except for that group 0:22:17.359 --> 0:22:20.760 of It just drives me crazy. But the larger way 0:22:20.880 --> 0:22:24.280 I do it in Greenwich Village is so we got 0:22:24.320 --> 0:22:27.439 a lot of funerals and a lot of weddings. Fewer 0:22:27.480 --> 0:22:33.080 baptisms these days, but a lot of funerals. In some 0:22:33.480 --> 0:22:36.199 stranger will walk in the door of Judson twice a 0:22:36.200 --> 0:22:40.440 week and say, my downstairs neighbor died. I called everybody 0:22:40.440 --> 0:22:45.240 in her address book. I don't know nobody's answering. There 0:22:45.240 --> 0:22:47.439 are a lot of people like that still in the village, 0:22:48.280 --> 0:22:50.399 and we say, of course, we'll do a service and 0:22:50.440 --> 0:22:52.800 then ten people from the buildings show up, and the 0:22:52.840 --> 0:22:57.719 doorman and the housekeeper, you know. But usually the person 0:22:57.800 --> 0:23:01.679 who is the chief owner will say, by the way, 0:23:01.960 --> 0:23:06.080 no mention of God. And I'll get a big fat 0:23:06.119 --> 0:23:11.280 smile on my face and say I'll try, right, and 0:23:11.680 --> 0:23:15.920 because I have to agree to the terms, you know. 0:23:16.680 --> 0:23:19.160 But then when we get into the service, I'll say, now, 0:23:19.200 --> 0:23:22.040 I've been asked not to mention God, so I'm not 0:23:22.080 --> 0:23:27.560 going to overdo it. But um, Suzanne is in the 0:23:27.640 --> 0:23:31.920 hands of whatever is almighty, whatever is good, whatever is beautiful, 0:23:32.040 --> 0:23:36.560 whatever is true, and her life mattered. In other words, 0:23:36.880 --> 0:23:41.880 try to reinsert God language or Jesus has been so 0:23:42.000 --> 0:23:46.719 polluted by the evangelicals that it's hard to go Christ. 0:23:46.760 --> 0:23:49.280 I'll say Jesus all the time, but I probably won't 0:23:49.280 --> 0:23:53.359 say Christ because Christ has a kind of imperial feel 0:23:53.480 --> 0:23:56.919 to people, and in fact, that's what it means biblically. 0:23:57.520 --> 0:24:00.400 It's a way to be invitational. I want to be 0:24:00.480 --> 0:24:04.040 as invitational as possible, and I want to make people 0:24:04.160 --> 0:24:08.359 as spiritually comfortable as possible so that they don't have 0:24:08.440 --> 0:24:12.200 to be apologetic about being a Christian. So I'm so 0:24:12.359 --> 0:24:15.840 tired of people at Judson and elsewhere saying well, you know, 0:24:15.960 --> 0:24:18.760 I'm a Christian, but I'm not that kind of Christian. 0:24:19.320 --> 0:24:21.600 I don't want to have to say that anymore. I 0:24:21.640 --> 0:24:24.600 want to create a world in which people who are 0:24:24.600 --> 0:24:28.960 full of hate and bile are not Christians period. They 0:24:29.080 --> 0:24:32.280 have nothing to do with Jesus. So let's say the 0:24:32.400 --> 0:24:36.359 sex workers come and have their service. Do you find 0:24:36.400 --> 0:24:39.160 that people who are going to these whatever, the congregants, 0:24:39.160 --> 0:24:42.080 whatever their d NA, do they have that kind of 0:24:42.119 --> 0:24:46.080 self examination? Is that a part of what they're doing. Yes, 0:24:46.160 --> 0:24:49.240 they do for the most part, and that's because they're 0:24:49.280 --> 0:24:54.000 really human. And the safer the human is, the more 0:24:54.080 --> 0:24:56.680 likely the human is to confess his or her sin. 0:24:58.200 --> 0:25:01.880 And sin is miss the mark of our true humanity. 0:25:02.160 --> 0:25:08.680 It's missing, it's not being close to the ultimate to God. Um, 0:25:08.720 --> 0:25:14.280 it's distance from God. Sin is not specific things so 0:25:14.440 --> 0:25:18.000 much as your whole attitude, in your whole way of being, 0:25:18.200 --> 0:25:21.960 and whether you're making yourself stronger to be more loving 0:25:22.440 --> 0:25:25.600 because love is very hard. Is it becoming harder to 0:25:25.720 --> 0:25:27.720 love in the world we live in? Well, of course 0:25:27.760 --> 0:25:31.400 it is because we've banned God. Is this great article 0:25:31.960 --> 0:25:33.719 not to get off the sex workers? I think they 0:25:33.720 --> 0:25:37.240