1 00:00:03,160 --> 00:00:06,440 Speaker 1: I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the thing. 2 00:00:07,480 --> 00:00:11,600 Speaker 1: The Reverend Donna Scopper spends most days doing what any 3 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:16,600 Speaker 1: pastor does. She baptizes, she marries, she gives last rites. 4 00:00:17,280 --> 00:00:21,880 Speaker 1: But she's famous for her more worldly work. Scopper is 5 00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:24,920 Speaker 1: one of the most prominent members of the so called 6 00:00:25,040 --> 00:00:30,040 Speaker 1: religious left. Are in the business of sinners, that's her 7 00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:34,320 Speaker 1: on Fox News arguing with Bill O'Riley, That's that's ridiculous. 8 00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:38,440 Speaker 1: We I'm just asking. She brings God fearlessly into the 9 00:00:38,479 --> 00:00:43,560 Speaker 1: public sphere to counter religious conservatives with messengers like them. 10 00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:48,000 Speaker 1: She says, no wonder nonbelievers are the fastest growing segment 11 00:00:48,080 --> 00:00:54,360 Speaker 1: of American society. Scopper believes that the Christian God is 12 00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:59,360 Speaker 1: not punishmentalist. She believes that Christian salvation is a joyous 13 00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:03,400 Speaker 1: and universal liberation, and she came of age at the 14 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:07,640 Speaker 1: height of nineteen sixties radicalism, so she takes that liberation 15 00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:11,679 Speaker 1: to the streets. She was trained by Saul Alinsky and 16 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:16,720 Speaker 1: has been arrested for civil disobedience, so, of course, her church, 17 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:23,000 Speaker 1: Judson Memorial in Greenwich Village welcomes sex workers, militant atheists, 18 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:27,759 Speaker 1: LGBT folk, and the undocumented, and not just for worship. 19 00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:31,200 Speaker 1: It is a church. Plus, it's a church of around 20 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:35,440 Speaker 1: three hundred people who worship every Sunday and fairly traditional ways. 21 00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:41,160 Speaker 1: And it's also a place where about people from the 22 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:44,759 Speaker 1: community come through a week, mostly undocumented people. Right now, 23 00:01:45,400 --> 00:01:48,760 Speaker 1: a lot of sex workers Extinction Rebellion is meeting in 24 00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:52,040 Speaker 1: the basement Occupy moved in for a couple of years. 25 00:01:52,240 --> 00:01:54,840 Speaker 1: Is that kind of place. It's like the wee work 26 00:01:54,960 --> 00:01:58,080 Speaker 1: of a radical left. Yes, And we try to throw 27 00:01:58,120 --> 00:02:01,240 Speaker 1: them out as quickly as possible, do you yes, because 28 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:03,160 Speaker 1: we want to make room for the new and the next. 29 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:05,680 Speaker 1: That's our job. And one of you of a theory 30 00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:07,840 Speaker 1: you mean, I wonder if you are the Feds across 31 00:02:08,080 --> 00:02:11,200 Speaker 1: the park over by the restrooms there in the little building, 32 00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:14,600 Speaker 1: they were for a while, and we spotted them and 33 00:02:14,919 --> 00:02:19,080 Speaker 1: they stopped Our executive director and really the founder of 34 00:02:19,120 --> 00:02:22,040 Speaker 1: the sanctuary movement in this era is a man named 35 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:25,440 Speaker 1: Robbie rug Beyer, who has a case in federal court 36 00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:30,240 Speaker 1: because they've been harassing him forever. And they also picked 37 00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:32,840 Speaker 1: up another man who was a leader, Jean Montraville, and 38 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:37,200 Speaker 1: deported him. Because they punish you for being an activist today. 39 00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:40,640 Speaker 1: That's what it's come to under this administration. Well, before 40 00:02:40,680 --> 00:02:43,240 Speaker 1: we get to the path you were on that led 41 00:02:43,240 --> 00:02:45,959 Speaker 1: you to this kind of work. When you took over Judson, 42 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:48,680 Speaker 1: that was two thousand five. And were you in New 43 00:02:48,720 --> 00:02:50,720 Speaker 1: York for several years prior to that? Are you arrived 44 00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:53,200 Speaker 1: in New York right now? I was in Miami before that, 45 00:02:53,480 --> 00:02:56,920 Speaker 1: in a Judson kind of church in Miami. And how 46 00:02:56,960 --> 00:03:00,360 Speaker 1: would you describe the people who came to these facilities? Um? 47 00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:05,680 Speaker 1: Always the outsiders, Always people who were uncertain about religion, 48 00:03:05,880 --> 00:03:10,200 Speaker 1: uncertain about God, but had a strong sense of righteousness 49 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:13,720 Speaker 1: and spirit and wanted to make something happen. They weren't 50 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:15,680 Speaker 1: fooling around, and they knew they needed to be in 51 00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:20,080 Speaker 1: community to do it. They needed I call it spiritual 52 00:03:20,160 --> 00:03:23,840 Speaker 1: nurture for public capacity. They're just something that they're seeking. 53 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:29,040 Speaker 1: And our congregation is probably a third agnostic, a third atheist, 54 00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:34,360 Speaker 1: and a third recovering Baptists. You know, people who know 55 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:36,960 Speaker 1: the hymns, know the prayers, love it, you know, need 56 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:40,400 Speaker 1: to go to church on Sunday. But really no, they 57 00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:42,760 Speaker 1: don't really buy it. So I have to be very 58 00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:45,880 Speaker 1: careful with God talk. Um, it's become dropping the G 59 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:50,480 Speaker 1: bomb I call it sometimes because everybody on the left 60 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:53,680 Speaker 1: is allergic to religion. Everybody on the left is allergic 61 00:03:53,760 --> 00:03:56,320 Speaker 1: to God language. Do you think that's sad? I think 62 00:03:56,360 --> 00:04:00,200 Speaker 1: it's stupid. Um, It's different than sad. It's a m 63 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:03,600 Speaker 1: of ignorance and prejudice. The left is not immune to 64 00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:09,000 Speaker 1: ignorance and prejudice, unfortunately, if I've experienced that myself, Now, 65 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:12,640 Speaker 1: what was your childhood like in that way? My childhood 66 00:04:12,720 --> 00:04:17,840 Speaker 1: was with the warm fundamentalists, the Missouri sind Lutherans. And 67 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:23,200 Speaker 1: I got God. I got God through Pastor Witty. I 68 00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:26,080 Speaker 1: think I was six. My father was beating up my 69 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:30,839 Speaker 1: mother and I called Pastor Witty and he came in 70 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:35,159 Speaker 1: his black cassock and he said, Donald, stop that, don't 71 00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:40,719 Speaker 1: do it anymore. So when I saw a Pastor Whitty 72 00:04:41,279 --> 00:04:43,920 Speaker 1: show up, I said, I'm going to dedicate my life 73 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:47,840 Speaker 1: to keeping little girls safe. And I started baptizing my dolls. 74 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:52,840 Speaker 1: I started giving them communion, and both of my grandmother said, Donna, 75 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:56,320 Speaker 1: stop that, you can't be a pastor. It's only for boys. 76 00:04:56,480 --> 00:05:01,239 Speaker 1: And I said, oh, no, no way, not if it's true, 77 00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:05,360 Speaker 1: not if it's good. Right, So I fought my way 78 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:08,000 Speaker 1: into it. What did your father do for a living? 79 00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:12,320 Speaker 1: He was a custodian in a garment factory. How many 80 00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:15,320 Speaker 1: kids in the family. Three, I'm the oldest, and then 81 00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:18,119 Speaker 1: my sisters three years younger, and my baby brother wasn't 82 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:21,280 Speaker 1: born when this happened. So they stayed together after I 83 00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:25,000 Speaker 1: had another kid. They stayed together until she finally walked 84 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:28,599 Speaker 1: out on him. Um after my begging her to do it. 85 00:05:30,520 --> 00:05:33,440 Speaker 1: What's the path from baptizing your dolls to becoming you? 86 00:05:33,440 --> 00:05:37,680 Speaker 1: Go to you? You went to college in get nice 87 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:42,200 Speaker 1: Lutheran College. You know, feminism was just coming on, and 88 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:46,000 Speaker 1: I basically it's such a long story, but I got 89 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:48,760 Speaker 1: a scholarship to go to the University of Chicago Divinity 90 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:55,080 Speaker 1: School because my then husband, Bob Scopper, was avoiding the 91 00:05:55,160 --> 00:05:58,279 Speaker 1: draft by getting a Rockefeller fellowship to go to seminary. 92 00:05:58,360 --> 00:05:59,680 Speaker 1: That was one of the ways you could do it. 93 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:03,280 Speaker 1: And I called up the school and said, you know, 94 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:07,600 Speaker 1: I'm the one who ought to be going here, not him. 95 00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:10,080 Speaker 1: Why don't you let me come to And they had 96 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:13,839 Speaker 1: just hired the first woman professor and her one of 97 00:06:13,880 --> 00:06:18,840 Speaker 1: the conditions of her employment at this prestigious place was 98 00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:21,040 Speaker 1: to say, I need three scholarships for three women. There 99 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:23,640 Speaker 1: are no women in this class. So they put me 100 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:26,800 Speaker 1: through to a woman named Peggy anne Way and I 101 00:06:26,839 --> 00:06:30,880 Speaker 1: got a scholarship. Bob dropped out in a year, became 102 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:34,479 Speaker 1: very depressed by the moral dilemma he had faced because 103 00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:38,280 Speaker 1: he knew he was it wasn't quite right. But he 104 00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:40,640 Speaker 1: also couldn't go to Vietnam. He had a very low number. 105 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:43,200 Speaker 1: I don't know if you remember that time before. It's 106 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:47,800 Speaker 1: heavy for a lot of men. So I stuck. And 107 00:06:47,880 --> 00:06:50,480 Speaker 1: then the Lutheran said, we don't know ordaine women. Are 108 00:06:50,480 --> 00:06:53,680 Speaker 1: you crazy? And I said, well, no, I'm not. And 109 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:56,040 Speaker 1: they kept sending me back to seminary to get more 110 00:06:56,080 --> 00:06:59,119 Speaker 1: courses in luther because they didn't know how to say 111 00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:02,719 Speaker 1: the real issue is that we don't ordain women. So 112 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:06,200 Speaker 1: there was a big sinid out in Minneapolis, and I 113 00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:09,120 Speaker 1: and two other women who were the first three prepared 114 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:12,160 Speaker 1: to be ordained by the Lutherans, ended up on the 115 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:15,480 Speaker 1: front page of the paper um and we were all 116 00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:19,120 Speaker 1: then banished. They did ordain women, but they weren't going 117 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:22,120 Speaker 1: to ordain us because we were troublemakers. So I just 118 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:25,080 Speaker 1: switched to another denomination, the United Church of Christ, where 119 00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:29,440 Speaker 1: I've been very happy and you were ordained when nineteen 120 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:34,680 Speaker 1: seventy three in Tucson, Arizona, and they wouldn't allow the 121 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:37,560 Speaker 1: nuns who were parts of my friends. You know, ordination 122 00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:41,280 Speaker 1: is a ceremony of laying on of hands, and I 123 00:07:41,320 --> 00:07:44,040 Speaker 1: was appalled at the notion of all those men me 124 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:48,480 Speaker 1: kneeling down and then laying hands on that. I requested 125 00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:52,400 Speaker 1: that my nuns women's group be allowed to also lay 126 00:07:52,440 --> 00:07:57,440 Speaker 1: on hands, and the association the denomination said no. So 127 00:07:57,600 --> 00:08:00,960 Speaker 1: we all bought pink underwear and wore the to the ordination, 128 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:03,920 Speaker 1: and when it was time for the laying on of hands, 129 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:07,040 Speaker 1: all the nuns came up, moved right to the front 130 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:10,440 Speaker 1: and laid on hand. There wasn't anything they can do 131 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:16,119 Speaker 1: about it. Judson had a Mass, that's Catholic Mass said 132 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:20,440 Speaker 1: by self ordained priests. Correct, Judson, we have we have 133 00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:24,840 Speaker 1: five different congregations worshiping in the building. When are they um? 134 00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:28,600 Speaker 1: There's a thing called lab Shool, which is an experimental 135 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:32,760 Speaker 1: Jewish congregation saying praxed Us, which is the Roman Catholic 136 00:08:32,800 --> 00:08:38,400 Speaker 1: women who self ordained who worship another is a restoration 137 00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:41,840 Speaker 1: Temple which is a queer people of color congregation which 138 00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:46,040 Speaker 1: is very evangelical US. And then we had an organization 139 00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:49,199 Speaker 1: called the Muslim Community Network for a while. What's the 140 00:08:49,240 --> 00:08:51,960 Speaker 1: one you have mass for sex workers you tell me about. Yes, 141 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:56,000 Speaker 1: we do that, and also for opioid users, but they're episodic, 142 00:08:56,120 --> 00:08:59,920 Speaker 1: they're not congregational. So the mass for sex workers are 143 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:02,400 Speaker 1: the people that what they're seeking as privacy, they want 144 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:04,880 Speaker 1: to be able to have COMPETENTI reality when they they 145 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:09,520 Speaker 1: wanted probably more space to organize than to pray. But 146 00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:14,160 Speaker 1: we had Stormy Daniels people in a while back, which 147 00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:17,880 Speaker 1: was really fun. She didn't come, but she sent things. 148 00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:21,960 Speaker 1: We had Pleasure Sunday a while back. You know, we're 149 00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:24,880 Speaker 1: trying to be on the edge and not be conceited 150 00:09:24,920 --> 00:09:27,800 Speaker 1: about it and wants to find the people who are 151 00:09:27,880 --> 00:09:31,920 Speaker 1: outside of religion and have them tell us who God is. 152 00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:36,440 Speaker 1: We live in a time now. I never hear anybody 153 00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:40,520 Speaker 1: talk about God. I never hear anybody talk about faith 154 00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:42,920 Speaker 1: when you're read a dinner conversation. No, I don't need 155 00:09:42,960 --> 00:09:47,840 Speaker 1: that to be some you know, obvious thing or very 156 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:51,280 Speaker 1: or very uh yeah, I mean, but it's like you 157 00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:55,360 Speaker 1: never hear politicians talk about peace anymore, and I never 158 00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:58,559 Speaker 1: hear people talk about God anymore. And yet I talked 159 00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:03,400 Speaker 1: to God instantly. Most people do constantly. I mean, in 160 00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:06,120 Speaker 1: my head, I'm saying, there going, but please let me 161 00:10:06,160 --> 00:10:08,520 Speaker 1: get this right. Please, that wouldn't give me something that 162 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:10,800 Speaker 1: I want. Please let me just get through this without 163 00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:15,600 Speaker 1: any problems. Call down me down, we will focus me. 164 00:10:16,160 --> 00:10:18,000 Speaker 1: I would sit there. I wrote this in this book 165 00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:19,959 Speaker 1: I wrote about my I wrote a book that was 166 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:25,000 Speaker 1: basically a screed against the California family law system. When 167 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:27,520 Speaker 1: I was going through my custody battle from my older daughter. 168 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:30,760 Speaker 1: I remember I would sit on up in a plane 169 00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:34,200 Speaker 1: and I leaned my head against a window, and I 170 00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:38,040 Speaker 1: would say, please let this trip with my daughter be pleasant. 171 00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:41,800 Speaker 1: I don't want anything. The idea was I would just 172 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:44,000 Speaker 1: lean my head on a window of an airplane and say, 173 00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:47,920 Speaker 1: please just let this weekend go well. Everybody just is happy. 174 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:50,920 Speaker 1: I said, let this weekend be normal. I wrote that 175 00:10:50,960 --> 00:10:52,720 Speaker 1: in the book. Not that we're going to go have 176 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:55,800 Speaker 1: like some fizzy entertainment. Let it just be normal. We 177 00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:58,680 Speaker 1: all just get along. Everybody's fairly happy. And every time 178 00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:02,240 Speaker 1: I made that prayer, it happy and nice, I guess, 179 00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:04,600 Speaker 1: because I was requesting something that was in line with 180 00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:07,000 Speaker 1: what some other power wanted me to have in my life, 181 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:11,440 Speaker 1: but in line with the power's intention right in your lifetime. 182 00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:15,000 Speaker 1: What do you attribute the I mean beyond you know, 183 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:17,240 Speaker 1: scandals and for the Catholics and stuff forth, and I 184 00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:20,080 Speaker 1: know that their numbers are going down dramatically, what are 185 00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:25,360 Speaker 1: you attributed to which have led us to this godless society? 186 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:29,040 Speaker 1: So it's a really good question. And the sex scandals 187 00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:33,800 Speaker 1: do matter tremendously, even though there's an ancient heresy that 188 00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:37,000 Speaker 1: says the bread is good even if the giver is not. 189 00:11:37,760 --> 00:11:41,120 Speaker 1: Just because the priest is a bastard doesn't mean religion 190 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:46,480 Speaker 1: is wrong. It's important, very important, and it's been well 191 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:50,360 Speaker 1: thought out for centuries. But that being said, I think 192 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:56,600 Speaker 1: I think the evangelicals have given God a very bad name, 193 00:11:57,679 --> 00:12:02,760 Speaker 1: and it's it's the way they are to call it punishmentalism, 194 00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:06,880 Speaker 1: and it's the punishing God. So they've got God wrong 195 00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:10,760 Speaker 1: in a very fundamental way. And so people just they're 196 00:12:10,760 --> 00:12:14,400 Speaker 1: getting blamed and shamed enough and at work, at school, 197 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:18,200 Speaker 1: they don't need to God who's like that. So the 198 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:21,240 Speaker 1: good news is God isn't like that. Um I just 199 00:12:21,280 --> 00:12:26,240 Speaker 1: did a sermon out in Orient last weekend about the 200 00:12:26,280 --> 00:12:30,720 Speaker 1: difference between sweet braid and sage. So sage is this 201 00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:33,160 Speaker 1: thing that's lots of people have in their houses, and 202 00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:37,760 Speaker 1: it's an ancient native custom of dispelling the bad spirits. 203 00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:40,160 Speaker 1: So people will move into a new house, so they'll 204 00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:43,679 Speaker 1: go to a a and they'll dispel the bad spirits 205 00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:48,160 Speaker 1: that are driving them crazy. Sweet braid isn't also an 206 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:55,280 Speaker 1: ancient ritual, simple household ritual of bringing in good energy. 207 00:12:56,120 --> 00:13:02,040 Speaker 1: I'm on the side of religion that calls up positive energy, 208 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:05,520 Speaker 1: not the kind that dispels the bad energy. So no 209 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:11,480 Speaker 1: stage all sweet bread for me. Do all the organized 210 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:16,400 Speaker 1: religions in the world have something that you admire and respect? Well? 211 00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:21,480 Speaker 1: When I pray in public, which I often do, I say, God, 212 00:13:21,559 --> 00:13:24,760 Speaker 1: you whom some call Jesus, another called Christ, you whom 213 00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:28,680 Speaker 1: some call Allah, and others called breath You beyond the 214 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:33,960 Speaker 1: captivity of any human name or force, draw near and 215 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:37,800 Speaker 1: bless us on our way to finding some piece of 216 00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:42,560 Speaker 1: You today. And I really mean that prayer. Uh. We're 217 00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:47,160 Speaker 1: struggling for our lives as movements. UM. I have founded 218 00:13:47,160 --> 00:13:50,000 Speaker 1: this little organization in New York called bricks and mortals, 219 00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:54,199 Speaker 1: which is about changing up the sacred sites so that 220 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:58,880 Speaker 1: they can be more useful. And it means remove the 221 00:13:58,920 --> 00:14:02,959 Speaker 1: pews from your head, your spiritual head first, and get 222 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:07,120 Speaker 1: get over being right about God. So I'm married to 223 00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:10,760 Speaker 1: a Jew. I have three kids who practice Judayoism. Your 224 00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:14,079 Speaker 1: children are Jewish? Yes, my son is married to a rabbi. 225 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:17,320 Speaker 1: He walks around Brooklyn wearing a t shirt that he 226 00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:20,920 Speaker 1: had made and it says, my mother as a minister, 227 00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:23,640 Speaker 1: My wife's a rabbi. Get over it. There was never 228 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:27,160 Speaker 1: any discussion of them coming to your side of the aisle, 229 00:14:27,240 --> 00:14:29,920 Speaker 1: so to speak. Warren and I decided that the first 230 00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 1: seven years they'd get immersed in Christianity and the next 231 00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:37,320 Speaker 1: seven years they get immersed in Judaism. So they were 232 00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:40,720 Speaker 1: Actually when my mother left my father we were talking 233 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:43,680 Speaker 1: about her before. It was at my twins bar Mitzvahs 234 00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:46,920 Speaker 1: bar in bat Mitzvah, and my father went into one 235 00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:49,440 Speaker 1: of his fits and said, I don't want to be 236 00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:51,600 Speaker 1: around all those rich Jews. And she said I don't 237 00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:53,320 Speaker 1: want to be married to a bigot anymore, and she 238 00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:58,440 Speaker 1: walked and she never went back. Now, I said that 239 00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:00,880 Speaker 1: when I went through the darkest parts of my child 240 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:04,000 Speaker 1: custody with my daughter, I said, I'm just gonna go 241 00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:06,120 Speaker 1: into the woods and message I'm gonna drive up to 242 00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:08,000 Speaker 1: the Birchers and Mike into the woods and just blow 243 00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:09,720 Speaker 1: my brains out. And I said, nobody will find me 244 00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:13,080 Speaker 1: for at least a couple of weeks. And I wanted 245 00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:16,920 Speaker 1: to come back from this horrible depression that I had, 246 00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:22,200 Speaker 1: and um, I will sit with my priest, who is 247 00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:26,720 Speaker 1: a dear friend of mine, older men. He's ninety three now, 248 00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:29,480 Speaker 1: and he's one of three or four men over the 249 00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:33,080 Speaker 1: years who's kept me coming back to pray and to 250 00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:36,640 Speaker 1: ask for the strength to deal with this. And this 251 00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:42,440 Speaker 1: because going back to church, going back to sit with 252 00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:45,040 Speaker 1: these men and talk to them privately, we'd have meals. 253 00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:46,840 Speaker 1: I bring food over to the place and we'd sit 254 00:15:46,880 --> 00:15:52,200 Speaker 1: down and have lunch out here. And all of them 255 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:56,680 Speaker 1: don't see the change that I see coming for the church, 256 00:15:56,840 --> 00:16:00,000 Speaker 1: a dying Catholic church, and I don't want to focus 257 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:03,320 Speaker 1: only a Catholicism here. I said to them, you do 258 00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:06,160 Speaker 1: see married clergy coming, And they said, oh, yes, it's 259 00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:10,320 Speaker 1: it's it's it's not you know what christ wantity, wanted celibacy, 260 00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:12,800 Speaker 1: but we're realizing, you know, whatever their words were about 261 00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:16,120 Speaker 1: the impracticality of that. Then I said, and if you 262 00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:19,200 Speaker 1: saw like a gunshot their reaction to this, I said, 263 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:21,760 Speaker 1: now what about women? Clear before I even finished the phrase, 264 00:16:21,920 --> 00:16:25,360 Speaker 1: they went no, no, no, no no no no no 265 00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:30,080 Speaker 1: no no, and they shot that down so fast. Why 266 00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:34,440 Speaker 1: do you think that is why? It's just so? I 267 00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:37,280 Speaker 1: wrote a book about this called I Heart You Francis 268 00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:41,960 Speaker 1: Love Letters from a Reluctant Admirer, and I got I 269 00:16:42,040 --> 00:16:44,840 Speaker 1: got a letter back from him, and in the book, 270 00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:48,440 Speaker 1: I argued, because I was totally Twitter painted with this 271 00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:51,000 Speaker 1: guy when he first came in, I just fell in 272 00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:53,440 Speaker 1: love with him. So I decided to write him love letters, 273 00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:59,160 Speaker 1: and and I said, your own beautiful internal logic about 274 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:04,919 Speaker 1: mother Earth and ecology. I think he's the smartest ecological 275 00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:09,560 Speaker 1: environmental thinker we have. And his entire thing is, let's 276 00:17:09,600 --> 00:17:14,000 Speaker 1: re sacrilize all of the earth, and when we re 277 00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:17,760 Speaker 1: sacrilize it, we won't be able to pollute it the 278 00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:21,480 Speaker 1: way we do. And I think that's true, I really do. 279 00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:26,680 Speaker 1: So I said, your own internal arguments are certainly going 280 00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:31,280 Speaker 1: to lead you to ordain women have married priests, ordain 281 00:17:31,359 --> 00:17:37,080 Speaker 1: gay people, and be so much less punishing and rigid 282 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:41,240 Speaker 1: in your point of view. And none of that happened. 283 00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:44,720 Speaker 1: And all my Catholic friends said, Donna, that's the craziest 284 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:48,639 Speaker 1: book you've ever written. It's really really naive. What happened 285 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:50,800 Speaker 1: to you? You stupid or something? And I said, no, 286 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:54,000 Speaker 1: I actually believe it. And I still believe it. So 287 00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:57,800 Speaker 1: as long as the Catholics think no, no, no about 288 00:17:57,960 --> 00:18:02,200 Speaker 1: ordaining women, I think they have missed the Jesus boat 289 00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:07,000 Speaker 1: so far that they're just not going to make sense 290 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:12,760 Speaker 1: to people. And that's a real shame. United Church of 291 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:18,400 Speaker 1: Christ Minister Donna Scopper another, here's the thing, guests who 292 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:22,639 Speaker 1: wrestles with questions of faith is Lawrence Right. He writes 293 00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:25,359 Speaker 1: about the darker side of religion for The New Yorker 294 00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:29,000 Speaker 1: magazine and in his book Going Clear, in which he 295 00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:33,560 Speaker 1: documents the Church of Scientology's efforts to convert young actors 296 00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:36,480 Speaker 1: in Hollywood. Your friends are going off, they're going to 297 00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:39,040 Speaker 1: get law degrees and stuff like that, and you are 298 00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:42,280 Speaker 1: out in you know, Hollywood, eating dog food, hoping to 299 00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:46,920 Speaker 1: be a movie star. There's a sense of inadequacy alongcome scientologists, 300 00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:49,440 Speaker 1: which says you will learn the secrets of the universe 301 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:52,880 Speaker 1: and you'll acquire superhuman powers. And if you're a young 302 00:18:53,040 --> 00:18:56,320 Speaker 1: actor standing out in central casting, they'll be passing out 303 00:18:56,320 --> 00:18:59,000 Speaker 1: brochure saying how to get an agent, how to get 304 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:03,560 Speaker 1: ahead in the business, Come to the Celebrity Center. Lawrence 305 00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:08,240 Speaker 1: Right discusses his other stories in our archive at Here's 306 00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:12,359 Speaker 1: the Thing dot Org. Donna Scopper returns in a moment. 307 00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:28,840 Speaker 1: The Reverend Donna Scopper of Judson Memorial Church in New 308 00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:33,760 Speaker 1: York comes by her radical activism. Honestly, she studied with 309 00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:37,040 Speaker 1: the great rabble rouser Saul Alinsky, who got wind of 310 00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:40,720 Speaker 1: Scopper while she was sort of attending the University of 311 00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:45,840 Speaker 1: Chicago Divinity School. The first day we went to class, 312 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:50,159 Speaker 1: we all just said it was bs and went on strike. 313 00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:54,359 Speaker 1: So we came up with this song that to Alice's 314 00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:57,639 Speaker 1: restaurant and camped out in the chapel and that you 315 00:19:57,800 --> 00:20:01,119 Speaker 1: can bullshit any time you feel. Let the smell don't 316 00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:05,400 Speaker 1: make you reel. And Saul was right around the corner, 317 00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:08,880 Speaker 1: came and helped us organize it, and there was a 318 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:14,320 Speaker 1: mass graduate student sort of walk out. It was really 319 00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:21,760 Speaker 1: really interesting and kind of adolescence and embarrassing. UM and 320 00:20:23,040 --> 00:20:27,199 Speaker 1: Saul started teaching us, and I was really excited about 321 00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:30,520 Speaker 1: organizing and really cut my teeth on the South side 322 00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:34,320 Speaker 1: of Chicago with him for about a year, and then 323 00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:38,360 Speaker 1: I realized that he was really sexist in his understanding 324 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:43,960 Speaker 1: of power. Today we would call it instrumental. You know, 325 00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:49,760 Speaker 1: hurt those guys, make an enemy, kill them. How do 326 00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:52,320 Speaker 1: you get power? You you wait for the people in power, 327 00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:56,240 Speaker 1: all of whom are bad and evil, to make a mistake, 328 00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:59,640 Speaker 1: and then you, JOm, I got them. And so it's 329 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:04,439 Speaker 1: just masculine. So I wrote this paper in which I 330 00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:07,120 Speaker 1: pointed out that I don't think women would organize that way. 331 00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:11,880 Speaker 1: H nor did I think Christians would organize that way. 332 00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:15,280 Speaker 1: Jesus is the one who he refused to have an enemy, 333 00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:19,119 Speaker 1: even though he called out power all the time. I mean, 334 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:23,160 Speaker 1: it's a beautifully hard dance, you know, because you can 335 00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:25,919 Speaker 1: make more change if you can declare an enemy, you 336 00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:29,679 Speaker 1: can really get very far. But when you're there and 337 00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:34,679 Speaker 1: you're ministering, how do you get them to refuse to 338 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:37,280 Speaker 1: make an enemy? Because when you drop your guard, you 339 00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:39,600 Speaker 1: feel like a chump. I'm in a lot of trouble 340 00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:43,440 Speaker 1: right now for saying to the Me Too movement that 341 00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:49,679 Speaker 1: I just don't think we can demonize people. People just 342 00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:52,800 Speaker 1: get angry about it and will tell you the victim regardless. 343 00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:56,320 Speaker 1: Just believe the victims. Start with that, and I can 344 00:21:56,440 --> 00:21:58,880 Speaker 1: even believe the victim. But I still want to know 345 00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:02,679 Speaker 1: what's going to happen to the person over there, you 346 00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:05,080 Speaker 1: know what happens to the rest of your life. You 347 00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:09,800 Speaker 1: can't say that you're for decarceration and then throw the 348 00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:13,240 Speaker 1: book at other people. You just can't do it that way. 349 00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:17,359 Speaker 1: And I'm totally opposed to decarceration except for that group 350 00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:20,760 Speaker 1: of It just drives me crazy. But the larger way 351 00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:24,280 Speaker 1: I do it in Greenwich Village is so we got 352 00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:27,439 Speaker 1: a lot of funerals and a lot of weddings. Fewer 353 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:33,080 Speaker 1: baptisms these days, but a lot of funerals. In some 354 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:36,199 Speaker 1: stranger will walk in the door of Judson twice a 355 00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:40,440 Speaker 1: week and say, my downstairs neighbor died. I called everybody 356 00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:45,240 Speaker 1: in her address book. I don't know nobody's answering. There 357 00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:47,439 Speaker 1: are a lot of people like that still in the village, 358 00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:50,399 Speaker 1: and we say, of course, we'll do a service and 359 00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:52,800 Speaker 1: then ten people from the buildings show up, and the 360 00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:57,719 Speaker 1: doorman and the housekeeper, you know. But usually the person 361 00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:01,679 Speaker 1: who is the chief owner will say, by the way, 362 00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:06,080 Speaker 1: no mention of God. And I'll get a big fat 363 00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:11,280 Speaker 1: smile on my face and say I'll try, right, and 364 00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:15,920 Speaker 1: because I have to agree to the terms, you know. 365 00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:19,160 Speaker 1: But then when we get into the service, I'll say, now, 366 00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:22,040 Speaker 1: I've been asked not to mention God, so I'm not 367 00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:27,560 Speaker 1: going to overdo it. But um, Suzanne is in the 368 00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:31,920 Speaker 1: hands of whatever is almighty, whatever is good, whatever is beautiful, 369 00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:36,560 Speaker 1: whatever is true, and her life mattered. In other words, 370 00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:41,880 Speaker 1: try to reinsert God language or Jesus has been so 371 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:46,719 Speaker 1: polluted by the evangelicals that it's hard to go Christ. 372 00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:49,280 Speaker 1: I'll say Jesus all the time, but I probably won't 373 00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:53,359 Speaker 1: say Christ because Christ has a kind of imperial feel 374 00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:56,919 Speaker 1: to people, and in fact, that's what it means biblically. 375 00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:00,400 Speaker 1: It's a way to be invitational. I want to be 376 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:04,040 Speaker 1: as invitational as possible, and I want to make people 377 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:08,359 Speaker 1: as spiritually comfortable as possible so that they don't have 378 00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:12,200 Speaker 1: to be apologetic about being a Christian. So I'm so 379 00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:15,840 Speaker 1: tired of people at Judson and elsewhere saying well, you know, 380 00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:18,760 Speaker 1: I'm a Christian, but I'm not that kind of Christian. 381 00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:21,600 Speaker 1: I don't want to have to say that anymore. I 382 00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:24,600 Speaker 1: want to create a world in which people who are 383 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:28,960 Speaker 1: full of hate and bile are not Christians period. They 384 00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:32,280 Speaker 1: have nothing to do with Jesus. So let's say the 385 00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:36,359 Speaker 1: sex workers come and have their service. Do you find 386 00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:39,160 Speaker 1: that people who are going to these whatever, the congregants, 387 00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:42,080 Speaker 1: whatever their d NA, do they have that kind of 388 00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:46,080 Speaker 1: self examination? Is that a part of what they're doing. Yes, 389 00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:49,240 Speaker 1: they do for the most part, and that's because they're 390 00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:54,000 Speaker 1: really human. And the safer the human is, the more 391 00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:56,680 Speaker 1: likely the human is to confess his or her sin. 392 00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:01,880 Speaker 1: And sin is miss the mark of our true humanity. 393 00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:08,680 Speaker 1: It's missing, it's not being close to the ultimate to God. Um, 394 00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:14,280 Speaker 1: it's distance from God. Sin is not specific things so 395 00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:18,000 Speaker 1: much as your whole attitude, in your whole way of being, 396 00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:21,960 Speaker 1: and whether you're making yourself stronger to be more loving 397 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:25,600 Speaker 1: because love is very hard. Is it becoming harder to 398 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:27,720 Speaker 1: love in the world we live in? Well, of course 399 00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:31,400 Speaker 1: it is because we've banned God. Is this great article 400 00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:33,719 Speaker 1: not to get off the sex workers? I think they 401 00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:37,240 Speaker 1: are as accountable as any other group of human being. 402 00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:41,200 Speaker 1: I really do on us. They get what they're doing. 403 00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:43,920 Speaker 1: I mean, some people who work at Walmart are really 404 00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:48,000 Speaker 1: worried about selling guns. Some people who work in a 405 00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:50,879 Speaker 1: fast food place, Thank my god. I'm a great singer 406 00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:52,720 Speaker 1: and I'm working in a fast food place. What is 407 00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:55,240 Speaker 1: it with me? A lot of my preaching friends. So 408 00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:58,440 Speaker 1: I gave another crappy sermon on Sunday, what's with me? 409 00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:02,240 Speaker 1: You know why? I am? Why not doing my best? 410 00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:07,680 Speaker 1: But it's not It's not the act, the habitual act 411 00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:10,040 Speaker 1: of this or that, or the crummy job. There are 412 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:14,040 Speaker 1: a lot of people with crummy jobs. And there's a 413 00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:17,159 Speaker 1: Korean notion of sin, which is the word is han 414 00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:21,760 Speaker 1: h a and and it actually comes through Reinhold neighbor 415 00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:25,480 Speaker 1: to who thought the big sin was pride. Mm hmm. 416 00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:31,800 Speaker 1: The big sin is what he calls um indifference. I 417 00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:34,359 Speaker 1: can't believe you just said that. I said to my priest, 418 00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:39,240 Speaker 1: my former priest who died from the bell Rose Queen's School, 419 00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:41,719 Speaker 1: the old Catholic boys from Queens. You know, we had 420 00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:45,760 Speaker 1: this a very heavy New York accent like this, And 421 00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:47,280 Speaker 1: I said, I want to sit down with you and 422 00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:51,440 Speaker 1: do reconciliation. I'm wanna do the modern Catholic confession. He goes, 423 00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:54,199 Speaker 1: what I said, Yeah, I want to sit down with you. 424 00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:55,440 Speaker 1: I got a lot of things I want to talk 425 00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:57,600 Speaker 1: about that are really eating at me. And I feel 426 00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:00,000 Speaker 1: bad because you want to sit down and do all 427 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:03,080 Speaker 1: of that in the room and tell me every horrible 428 00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:06,360 Speaker 1: thing you've been doing. Well, please, because are you sorry? 429 00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:09,800 Speaker 1: Are you sorry for what you did? Alright, the name 430 00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:11,359 Speaker 1: of the Father and the Son of the Holy Spirit, 431 00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:14,600 Speaker 1: You're absolved, Okay, Please go. I can't stand that listening 432 00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:18,680 Speaker 1: to those stories. And then we had lunch and I 433 00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:23,480 Speaker 1: said to him, people come to He goes, well, he is. 434 00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:27,520 Speaker 1: Everything is about sex. The man is having an affair 435 00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:30,440 Speaker 1: with his secretary and it's just sex. He's just fooling around. 436 00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:33,880 Speaker 1: And the woman is having sex with a tennis pro 437 00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:37,000 Speaker 1: or her trainer. But she's fallen in love. She's in love. 438 00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:39,720 Speaker 1: And he says, and I don't care about that. He goes, 439 00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:44,199 Speaker 1: I'm from the Thomas Aquinas school, the sins of the Flesh, 440 00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:46,640 Speaker 1: of the least of our concerns. He said, I want 441 00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:48,879 Speaker 1: someone to come into this room and say, bless me Father, 442 00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:54,200 Speaker 1: for I have sinned. I have an abundance of pride indifference. 443 00:27:55,280 --> 00:28:00,119 Speaker 1: People have been told stop caring carrying his old care. 444 00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:05,960 Speaker 1: It's too expensive. And this is why we get climate deniers, 445 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:10,080 Speaker 1: school shooters, ridiculous forms of government. I mean, I can't 446 00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:13,720 Speaker 1: believe the Congress sits around every day all day long 447 00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:18,560 Speaker 1: and does nothing about people whose medical bills are skyrocketing, 448 00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:21,880 Speaker 1: and they're going, I mean, it's just insane. So it's 449 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:25,840 Speaker 1: what you don't do. St. Paul said, um uh, the 450 00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:27,800 Speaker 1: good that I do not and the evil that I 451 00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:32,359 Speaker 1: would not do, I do. And it's in that place 452 00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:37,679 Speaker 1: the Korean word han. It's not just indifference, it's also 453 00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:42,960 Speaker 1: folly lust and they apply it to people who died 454 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:47,120 Speaker 1: in the Holocaust. This is very uncomfortable, but they'll say, 455 00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:54,000 Speaker 1: why did the Jews who outnumbered the guards not rise 456 00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:59,240 Speaker 1: up and die fighting and die fighting as opposed to 457 00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:03,600 Speaker 1: the way they died. Now, I don't know how I 458 00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:07,400 Speaker 1: really think about that, because, okay, because I have a mother. 459 00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:10,080 Speaker 1: I have a mother who stayed with an abusive man 460 00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:14,760 Speaker 1: for thirty years and when I finally got said to her, 461 00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:18,600 Speaker 1: why why why why why why? She said, Donna, because 462 00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:20,520 Speaker 1: we would have been in the poorhouse. I did it 463 00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:23,840 Speaker 1: for you, Now shut up and get it. I get it. 464 00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:28,760 Speaker 1: So it's not like we have all these choices to 465 00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:33,840 Speaker 1: rebel or to foment revolution on a daily basis, But 466 00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:38,520 Speaker 1: we do have responsibility when we don't, when we settle, 467 00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:41,800 Speaker 1: and that I think is a form of sin too. 468 00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:44,680 Speaker 1: And you know, one of the things that's going on 469 00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:47,000 Speaker 1: with clergy right now. We used to call it rent 470 00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:50,280 Speaker 1: a caller, and now with all these mass shootings, it's 471 00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:54,040 Speaker 1: like rent a caller at the vigil getting really hard 472 00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:58,440 Speaker 1: these Saturday events. You have to change up everything you're 473 00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:00,320 Speaker 1: gonna do, and then the mayor, of course us wants 474 00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:03,520 Speaker 1: you to stand there and look like you're praying. And 475 00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:10,440 Speaker 1: these are all people who haven't been religiously prepared. I 476 00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:12,800 Speaker 1: think it takes a whole life to become a Christian, 477 00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:16,520 Speaker 1: and I hope I get there before I go. You 478 00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:20,120 Speaker 1: don't just do it a little bit. You guide a 479 00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:24,120 Speaker 1: lot of people through their final moments. Correct. Yes, mostly 480 00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:32,280 Speaker 1: I do old fashioned ministry, hatching, matching and dispatching weddings, funerals, baptisms, 481 00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:39,560 Speaker 1: despatching exactly. You have never heard that, Well, always said 482 00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:41,800 Speaker 1: that to me. That was my prec said, oh, he goes. 483 00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:44,000 Speaker 1: I love it you come here, he said, I thought 484 00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:46,720 Speaker 1: you'd be one of those A and P Catholics. I said, 485 00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:50,720 Speaker 1: what they say as ashes and palms hatching, matching, dispatching. 486 00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:53,440 Speaker 1: But when's when a congregant you're told is gonna is 487 00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:57,560 Speaker 1: gonna cross over and you go there. I'm assuming that 488 00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:00,360 Speaker 1: many times they're not lucid, they're not conscious, know, but 489 00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:02,520 Speaker 1: the people around them are. What do you want them 490 00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:06,480 Speaker 1: to know that they're going to be okay, that the 491 00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:09,480 Speaker 1: survivors are going to be okay. Even if it's a 492 00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:12,760 Speaker 1: husband or a wife or a partner, they're going to 493 00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:16,120 Speaker 1: be okay. Even without the role of the church over 494 00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:19,520 Speaker 1: throughout time to let people have a place to go, 495 00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:22,880 Speaker 1: it still matters a lot, you know. I mean, I 496 00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:27,120 Speaker 1: have a beautiful woman in my congregation. Um. She was 497 00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:29,360 Speaker 1: the first chair of the board when I got to Judson, 498 00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:33,880 Speaker 1: and she and her husband were so close, just the 499 00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:37,840 Speaker 1: two of them. They were just happy together, didn't have children. 500 00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:41,360 Speaker 1: She has a beautiful garden in Brooklyn. They were redoing 501 00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:45,720 Speaker 1: this brown stone, these great New Yorkers. Anyway, he died, 502 00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:50,680 Speaker 1: and his whole dying was Mary going to be okay, 503 00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:52,880 Speaker 1: what is what's going to happen to Mary? What's gonna 504 00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:57,040 Speaker 1: happen to Mary? And she was just lost without him. 505 00:31:57,080 --> 00:31:59,360 Speaker 1: It's like this guy that was killed in the shooting 506 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:02,120 Speaker 1: who held his father in his arms, and the father 507 00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:05,920 Speaker 1: right it was kept asking if he was okay. That 508 00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:10,760 Speaker 1: last impulse, that last breath of life is an outwardly 509 00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:14,680 Speaker 1: directed breath and then a miracle it is, And it 510 00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:18,880 Speaker 1: is a miracle because you really are less self obsessed 511 00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:23,600 Speaker 1: than than ever people know they're dying. You know, my 512 00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:27,760 Speaker 1: mom just died this year and she were you there 513 00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:30,800 Speaker 1: for her to minister to her. No, my sister was, 514 00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:35,280 Speaker 1: and I wasn't. She died in her sleep at peacefully. 515 00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:38,320 Speaker 1: But she's been saying for two years you know I'm ready, Donna, 516 00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:41,800 Speaker 1: don't get all uptight, you know. I said, well, you 517 00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:44,239 Speaker 1: can be ready, but maybe I'm not ready, you know, 518 00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:47,560 Speaker 1: So that's the difference. What do you think happens to 519 00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:50,080 Speaker 1: us when we die? Oh? I think we all go 520 00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:57,320 Speaker 1: to heaven. I think that's fantastic. What do you think 521 00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:02,440 Speaker 1: happens when you die? Oh? I got it down, fascinating. Yes, Um, 522 00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:06,640 Speaker 1: the my last question for you, you've been a minister 523 00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:11,480 Speaker 1: in several different congregations. Seven. If I'm mistaken, give me 524 00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:13,640 Speaker 1: one or two of the most fundamental changes for you 525 00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:18,959 Speaker 1: over time. Boy, I wish I could say I had 526 00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:29,640 Speaker 1: changed more. I it's all pretty basic. Um. I think 527 00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:34,280 Speaker 1: probably social media and the internet has changed some of 528 00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:38,360 Speaker 1: the way we do pastoral care. I used to always 529 00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:44,480 Speaker 1: visit in people's homes and uh, you know, and kind 530 00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:48,000 Speaker 1: of a circuit, you know, you go this and you 531 00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:51,000 Speaker 1: do that, you go there and you and so I 532 00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:54,840 Speaker 1: got to know lots and lots of old ladies, uh 533 00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:59,840 Speaker 1: really well, which was wonderful, Um, people who are not 534 00:33:59,880 --> 00:34:04,200 Speaker 1: afraid of dying. And then now we just had a 535 00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:08,839 Speaker 1: baby born at Judson and I said, emailed, said, I'm 536 00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:11,640 Speaker 1: gonna come over, you know, say hi and see how 537 00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:13,800 Speaker 1: you're doing, because I'm concerned about the mother. And the 538 00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:16,760 Speaker 1: baby will be fine, but I know what happens to mothers. 539 00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:20,719 Speaker 1: And she said, oh my god, couldn't we just talk 540 00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:26,239 Speaker 1: on the phone. And I thought, hmm, okay, you know, 541 00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:30,279 Speaker 1: so I missed the face to face. And you know, 542 00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:34,600 Speaker 1: I think that the world is more dangerous right now, 543 00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:38,879 Speaker 1: and people are experiencing it as very dangerous. And I 544 00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:44,840 Speaker 1: attribute that to the lack of acculturation of meaning religion 545 00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:47,200 Speaker 1: in the best sense of the word. You know, not 546 00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:51,040 Speaker 1: crappy religion, but being raised with a common set of 547 00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:58,200 Speaker 1: values that are broad enough to include people and narrow 548 00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:01,280 Speaker 1: enough to say this matters. You know, you just don't. 549 00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:06,040 Speaker 1: You don't go shooting people, you know, you don't. My 550 00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:11,120 Speaker 1: rabbi friend in Miami, uh, we did a Good Friday 551 00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:14,080 Speaker 1: and pass Over together once when that guy came out 552 00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:17,680 Speaker 1: with the Jesus Blood movie. What's his name, Mel Gibson, 553 00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:21,400 Speaker 1: Mel Gibson. When Mel Gibson did his movie, I called 554 00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:25,279 Speaker 1: Rabbi Mitch Cheffer's my dear friend now and he said, 555 00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:28,360 Speaker 1: we have to do something about this movie together. Coral 556 00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:31,880 Speaker 1: Gables Congregational Church and temple is real. He said no. 557 00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:35,560 Speaker 1: He was like, well, thanks Mitch, you know. And then 558 00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:37,200 Speaker 1: a week later he called me back and he said, 559 00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:39,759 Speaker 1: we have to do something. So let's worship together on 560 00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:43,480 Speaker 1: opening night of Passover and on Good Friday. You bring 561 00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:47,200 Speaker 1: your cross into the temple, take it out, do exactly 562 00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:49,480 Speaker 1: your service, and then we'll do exactly our service and 563 00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:55,720 Speaker 1: we'll show what religions mean. And it was beautiful because 564 00:35:55,760 --> 00:36:01,120 Speaker 1: we were able to not turn Mel Gibson into uh, 565 00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:04,960 Speaker 1: you know, a demon, but to do what we do 566 00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:12,480 Speaker 1: and and respect it. It's certainly there are fewer people 567 00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:17,560 Speaker 1: coming to church or synagogue, but those who do are 568 00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:22,200 Speaker 1: getting a really interesting experience. That's what I would say. 569 00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:27,239 Speaker 1: It's not automatic. You choose it. Because So there was 570 00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:30,879 Speaker 1: this guy on the subway two days ago, and it's 571 00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:33,400 Speaker 1: eight o'clock in the morning and he walks in with 572 00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:37,719 Speaker 1: a giant Carvel ice cream cake you know what they are, 573 00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:42,960 Speaker 1: and it's melting, and he's got spin asked me what 574 00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:48,680 Speaker 1: carvel cake is. Come on, he's got tats all over, 575 00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:53,720 Speaker 1: he's got a backpack. He looks like a strange hipster. 576 00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:56,120 Speaker 1: It's at Fort Street. He gets on with the cake 577 00:36:56,680 --> 00:36:58,920 Speaker 1: and he yells out to the whole car it's my 578 00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:02,680 Speaker 1: birthday and does anybody want to have some cake with me? 579 00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:07,640 Speaker 1: And everybody looks like no. Then all of a sudden, 580 00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:11,320 Speaker 1: a couple of people say what the hell start eating. 581 00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:15,240 Speaker 1: So then people all gathered around the cake, eating this cake, 582 00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:18,960 Speaker 1: and he's laughing his head off and he says, this 583 00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:22,000 Speaker 1: is how I wanted to celebrate my birthday. I wanted 584 00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:26,960 Speaker 1: to have a Eucharist with you, and this is my body. 585 00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:31,720 Speaker 1: This is my body, Fugie Whale, It's my body, Fuggie 586 00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:38,800 Speaker 1: the Whale. Donna's scopper on social justice, salvation and carvel. 587 00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:42,920 Speaker 1: You can find her delivering the good news at eleven 588 00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:46,919 Speaker 1: every Sunday morning at Judson Memorial Church in New York 589 00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:52,840 Speaker 1: City or at a protest near you. I'm Alec Baldwin 590 00:37:53,160 --> 00:38:29,880 Speaker 1: and you're listening to Here's the Thing. Two two