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Speaker 1: Hut. If it doesn't work, you're just not using enough.

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Speaker 1: You're listening to soft radio, special operations, military news and

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Speaker 1: straight talk with the guys in the community. It's the

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Speaker 1: day we're gonna get into the kind of about the

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Speaker 1: story and we're gonna talk about, you know, something that

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Speaker 1: happened in the past around the Vietnam era. And I've

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Speaker 1: brought on Charles Cunningham, who is a former police officer,

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Speaker 1: former FBI. Charles, Welcome to the show. Thanks for having

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Speaker 1: me rad I'm looking forward to talking to you today. Now,

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Speaker 1: I just want to introduce you. You You reached out to

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Speaker 1: us because you listen to the show and you said, hey,

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Speaker 1: I have a story. I did. I did, and uh,

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Speaker 1: I think it's uh fantastic story for your viewers and

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Speaker 1: what you're doing with the special Forces kind of framework

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Speaker 1: kind of thing. So I think, yeah, the community, I

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Speaker 1: think though, I think they liked this story number one

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Speaker 1: because it's a true story and you'll you'll see the truth.

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Speaker 1: You know, there's nothing greater than the truth to hear

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Speaker 1: unbelievable story kind of thing. So once I get into it,

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Speaker 1: don't you know about it? So you come from a

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Speaker 1: background of Pennsylvania, right, Is that right? You were a

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Speaker 1: p a law dog out there. Yeah. Actually, I was

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Speaker 1: MP military police. I was in the Air Force from

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Speaker 1: seventy two to seventy six, and I had always wanted

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Speaker 1: to be a police officer. So when I got out

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Speaker 1: of the military, that prepared me for that. I became

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Speaker 1: a local police officer in Pennsylvania, and then I became

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Speaker 1: a state trooper in Pennsylvania, and ultimately I tested for

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Speaker 1: the FBI and and passed their test and went to

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Speaker 1: be an FBI agent. Oh I see, And so how

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Speaker 1: long how old were you when you got to be

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Speaker 1: an FBI agent? Isn't there like a time kind of

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Speaker 1: like an apen or is that like? Go ahead? It

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Speaker 1: is it's a thirty seven. You can't be older than

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Speaker 1: thirty seven when you enter because it's a mandatory retirement

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Speaker 1: of fifty seven. But that was about nine when and

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Speaker 1: actually happened to be That's about the middle average age

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Speaker 1: for someone to enter because they don't take young people really,

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Speaker 1: they look for seasoned people, people who have some experience

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Speaker 1: and things like that. That's what they're the FBI is

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Speaker 1: looking for, Yes, someone who probably doesn't get homesick too often. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's right. Yeah, that's right, that's right, because that happens.

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Speaker 1: And I think you can break that from going to

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Speaker 1: boy scout camp, you know, for three or seven day

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Speaker 1: excursion with your scouting trooper or some friends in the neighborhood,

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Speaker 1: go camping away from the house. Join the military. That'll

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Speaker 1: teach you how to not be homesick real like, oh wait,

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Speaker 1: and you're ready for the FBI after that, after you're

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Speaker 1: super trooper, you know what I mean. And in Pennsylvania,

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Speaker 1: so so here you are FBI. You come across the

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Speaker 1: story of David James Lindsay, am I saying his name right?

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Speaker 1: That's the correct name? Yes? And he's distinguished, right, This

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Speaker 1: guy is like you know, credits, he's got silver Star,

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Speaker 1: Bronze stars, clusters vs. Valors, everything tacked onto his ribbons. Hunt. Yeah, unbelievable.

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Speaker 1: Really yeah, So tell me what spurred you to go

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Speaker 1: after this story? Tell me about it. Let's let's yeah. Well,

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Speaker 1: first I told the story to some of my friends

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Speaker 1: and uh, they sort of loved it. They said, man,

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Speaker 1: you should be doing that. You should be telling people

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Speaker 1: about this number one because it's a true story. You know.

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Speaker 1: Usually the story is one of my first FBI cases.

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Speaker 1: It's like early in my career that I got this,

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Speaker 1: and I tell the story in the dramatic mode that

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Speaker 1: it was revealed to me a kind of thing. But

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Speaker 1: I want to tell you, your listener, is really what

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Speaker 1: part of this is about, not the whole story about it,

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Speaker 1: but part of it is about that this guy, he's

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Speaker 1: a stolen valor guy. But this is more than stolen valor,

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Speaker 1: much more than stolen valor. And it's not my opinion

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Speaker 1: about this guy. You've probably heard of a lady named

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Speaker 1: Mary Shantag and she was or she is like the

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Speaker 1: director of the POW Network, and she's also very big

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Speaker 1: in stolen valor, like she oversees the Fake Warriors dot

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Speaker 1: org program kind of thing to to unearthed stolen valor people.

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Speaker 1: She's been unbelievable in that. But I got in touch

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Speaker 1: with her because I wanted I was looking for some information,

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Speaker 1: and when I showed her his DD to fourteen and

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Speaker 1: she started like getting involved with me a little bit

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Speaker 1: to help me identify some things. She says she's never

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Speaker 1: seen anything like this, that this was probably the biggest

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Speaker 1: stolen valor in history. Now I have heard that term

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Speaker 1: or that saying many times, sure, sure, sure, say. And

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Speaker 1: it's not the local guy at the street corner wearing

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Speaker 1: a pair of cammis that he got at a thrift store.

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Speaker 1: This is probably somebody who has followed through with their

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Speaker 1: saying they have all of this stuff. This is like

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Speaker 1: trying to um. You know, you've got the guy wearing

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Speaker 1: a uniform from the thrift store, and then you've got

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Speaker 1: a guy trying to wear a uniform to sneak on base.

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Speaker 1: I got two different stole about that's the stole valor

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Speaker 1: to me right there exactly. The guy wearing the trench

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Speaker 1: coat from over surplus that someone's like, take that off. Okay,

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Speaker 1: I've thought about that this though. Crack this egg, let's go, yes,

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Speaker 1: all right. The other thing I did was I got

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Speaker 1: actually Mary Santa. She contacted this guy named Eric Anderson

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Speaker 1: who overseas or runs what's it called Veteran Tributes, and

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Speaker 1: he put puts people in into a rank structure about

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Speaker 1: where they would be in history. Right, So she he

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Speaker 1: looked at this guy's T two fourteen and he said,

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Speaker 1: non Medal of Honor winners, he would be in history.

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Speaker 1: So like Autie Murphy and down like you know, that's

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Speaker 1: what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying. Yeah, yeah, going

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Speaker 1: all the way down the list, he would be number

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Speaker 1: fifteen of all decorated soldiers, you know, because at Murphy,

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Speaker 1: you know, we all know the story of him. Rights

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Speaker 1: later then you then you've got this guy down here,

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Speaker 1: he's like fifteen slots blow. So he's supposedly, let's just say,

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Speaker 1: you know right now, you're gonna pull out the facts.

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Speaker 1: I'm just saying, supposedly has this valor. So here you come, FBI,

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Speaker 1: which is what your trade investigations? Uh snoopy? So like nuts,

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Speaker 1: the way I get in bobbed in this now. First,

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Speaker 1: I'm assigned to the Albany Division of the FBI, and

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Speaker 1: I'm also assigned to Northern Northern Road Trip, where I'm

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Speaker 1: the only FBI agent in these three northern counties of

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Speaker 1: of New York, Warren, Washington, and Saratoga counties. And my

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Speaker 1: job is to try to get a camaraderie, you know,

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Speaker 1: a recre going with local law enforcement and let them

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Speaker 1: know that I'm with the FBI and I'm there to

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Speaker 1: help them. Right. So, I'm the first FBI guy assigned

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Speaker 1: to this thing in over ten years so my showing up,

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Speaker 1: it's sort of little suspect, if you will, you know,

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Speaker 1: trying to break into the state Police, sheriff's offices, major

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Speaker 1: departments up there, and of course they were all a

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Speaker 1: little hesitating, right exactly what's this? Yeah? Yeah, what's this

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Speaker 1: guy want? You know? I said, I'm here to help you,

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Speaker 1: you know. But after a few months I got a through.

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Speaker 1: Friendships developed there anyway, But the New York State Police

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Speaker 1: one guy, uh, he's a senior investigator, Jim Babcock, and

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Speaker 1: he contacts me one day and says, hey, can you

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Speaker 1: stop up. I got something I want to show you.

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Speaker 1: He never called me, like, you know, to come see him.

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Speaker 1: It was I would just show up when whenever I

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Speaker 1: was in the area. Anyway, I got there and he's

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Speaker 1: got He sits down at his desk and he opens

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Speaker 1: his uh best straw, and he brings out a notebook

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Speaker 1: remember the marble notebooks for when we used to being

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Speaker 1: kids in school, And this notebook was filled with drug

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Speaker 1: transactions and Jim Babcock, his name was Jim. Jim tells

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Speaker 1: me the story that to a young couple came into

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Speaker 1: the Glens Falls barracks and we're scared to death, and uh,

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Speaker 1: they said, we want to turn this notebook into you,

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Speaker 1: and it's filled with drug transactions, but we wanted you

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Speaker 1: to have this. And he goes, well, listen, you know

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Speaker 1: if you turn all this in, you know you understand

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Speaker 1: that you're admitting that you're a drug dealer. And they said, yes,

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Speaker 1: we know that, and and he says, well, you know,

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Speaker 1: you could go to jail, and they said, well, jail

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Speaker 1: is better than being dead, right, And he said, if

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Speaker 1: we are found dead, we want you to know who

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Speaker 1: did it. David lindsay, so that's how I get introduced

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Speaker 1: to this case. And he tells me, listen, Charlie, I've

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Speaker 1: heard of this guy. This guy is a Vietnam War hero,

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Speaker 1: well known in the community. The police know him, the

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Speaker 1: state police, the state troopers know him trusted. And I said, well,

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Speaker 1: you know, why are you turning this over to me?

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Speaker 1: This is you know you could state police could do

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Speaker 1: it just as well. He said, well, because I think

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Speaker 1: this guy is going to be protected. Might be some

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Speaker 1: some things that you may have to encounter that really

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Speaker 1: will need a federal nexus to this thing and to

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Speaker 1: get this process done. So I said great, I said thanks,

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Speaker 1: I take the notebook and I start to run with

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Speaker 1: this thing. Now, remember right, this is kind of thing.

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Speaker 1: So there's no computer sitting on my desk, you know,

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Speaker 1: there's a phone on my desk. And when you said

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Speaker 1: Marvel notepad, I was like, oh, you mean today's internets

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Speaker 1: out there born in two thousand or sooner. Listening the

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Speaker 1: Marvel notepad, we would write our notes and thoughts in it.

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Speaker 1: It's amazing exaccursive even sometimes so so here you a phone,

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Speaker 1: maybe even a rotary phone, right, and uh, the FBI

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Speaker 1: at the time, I mean we had everything was on

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Speaker 1: index cards and things like that for when you wanted

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Speaker 1: to find something out you would ask one of the Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's like a giant Role of Dex kind of thing,

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Speaker 1: you know. So I think the first thing I'm supposed

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Speaker 1: to do, I go up to this Glen's Falls area

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Speaker 1: and actually it's a place called Whitehall, New York. And Whitehall,

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Speaker 1: New York is pretty far up there is Washington County

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Speaker 1: and pretty rural. Except so I go up there and

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Speaker 1: I introduced myself to the chief of police in this town,

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Speaker 1: and I just want to get some some background on

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Speaker 1: what's you know, what's going on or any drugs up there,

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Speaker 1: like just feel him out for what's going on. Well,

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Speaker 1: he tells me that they don't have any drugs in

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Speaker 1: Whitehall and that I asked them a couple of questions

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Speaker 1: like well, do you have any bars in town? And

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Speaker 1: the reason I asked him that was David Lindsay owned

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Speaker 1: a bar. It's called DJ's Lounge. So he says, yeah,

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Speaker 1: we we have one bar and it's run by a

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Speaker 1: Vietnam War hero, but there's no drugs being sold there.

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Speaker 1: I said, okay, And I said, do you have any

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Speaker 1: problems at this bar? Is no, there's never any problem

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Speaker 1: because David Lindsay handles it, right, I said, okay, very good.

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Speaker 1: So I leave within three hours, right, I get a

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Speaker 1: call to call the office, ye office, and it's the

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Speaker 1: office saying, hey, this guy David Lindsay just called and

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Speaker 1: wants to meet with you because he heard that you're

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Speaker 1: asking questions about him. I went, what, you know, like, wow,

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Speaker 1: this Citil police contacted this guy, so I knew this

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Speaker 1: is uh wow, this is amazing. Now meanwhile, you know

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Speaker 1: exactly so everybody sort of uh in this town is

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Speaker 1: you know, knows him and and what he does kind

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Speaker 1: of what he did before and everything. Now, you know,

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Speaker 1: I want to just tell you a couple a couple

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Speaker 1: of things that I found in looking in the newspapers.

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Speaker 1: You know, you had to go to libraries and like,

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Speaker 1: you know, look through the newspaper clippings and things like that. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so this guy, Now, first there's three deaths in this town,

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Speaker 1: and and they building that's burned down. First of all,

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Speaker 1: the bar burns down. Lindsay's bar burns down. Around everybody

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Speaker 1: in the town believes knows that David set the fire

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Speaker 1: himself because he wanted the insurance money, and they rebuild.

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Speaker 1: He rebuilds the bar with just one floor. Before it

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Speaker 1: had two stories, and so he builds a smaller but

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Speaker 1: keeps some of the money. The second thing that happens

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Speaker 1: is there's a there's not a murder, it's a death

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Speaker 1: and it's the guy who is dating David Lindsay's mother,

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Speaker 1: And all of a sudden, one night they're drinking at

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Speaker 1: the bar, Lindsay, this guy, George Moulton, and his mother

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Speaker 1: and this guy is sort of dating the mother and

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Speaker 1: the mothers like sixty years old and this guy is

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Speaker 1: like seven. So Lindsay has already told people he don't

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Speaker 1: like the situation and this ain't gonna stand with him.

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Speaker 1: So one morning he wakes up, this guy, the mother

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Speaker 1: wakes up and finds the George Malton in the bathtub,

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Speaker 1: drowned in the bathtub. It's ruled the accidental death. And

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Speaker 1: but all the people in the town think that David

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Speaker 1: killed him. No, there's there was no problem with that.

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Speaker 1: The police saw that it was a look. They thought

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Speaker 1: it was accidental and that's what they called it in

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Speaker 1: And then there's two deaths. One is David Lindsay's son,

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Speaker 1: Donnie Lindsay. He dies. He owes Lindsay money for cocaine

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Speaker 1: that he was using. He turned into a sort of

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Speaker 1: an addict. And everybody knew that in the town was

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Speaker 1: that this guy was in trouble and David was always

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Speaker 1: it was an intimidating and threatening kind of person that

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Speaker 1: I heard, That's what his image was. So Donnie Lindsey

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Speaker 1: gets shot. He shoots, Uh, it's ruled a suicide. He

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Speaker 1: does uses a rifle and he shoots himself in the

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Speaker 1: chest with a rifle, which it's a little a little difficult,

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Speaker 1: but he dies and yeah, it's hard to get to

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Speaker 1: the trigger, but he did and somehow he did it. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: And so the police investigate. They ruled a suicide, and

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Speaker 1: but in the people again in the town, think that

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Speaker 1: it's David who said that. I'll tell you later on

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Speaker 1: he tells somebody in prison that his son was a

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Speaker 1: maggot and he deserved to die. In nine six, David

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Speaker 1: Dewey owes money to Lindsay for cocaine. He's also found

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Speaker 1: with the same shoots himself in the chest with a rifle.

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Speaker 1: Again he's ruled the suicide, but again the town people

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Speaker 1: are believing that it's David. Now, David has a history

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Speaker 1: of you know, threatening people, shooting uh guns in his bar.

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Speaker 1: He's got weapons with silencers on them that he says

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Speaker 1: that he developed while he was in the in the

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Speaker 1: Marines or the army, and he spent twenty one years,

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Speaker 1: that's the other thing. Rather, I want to get on

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Speaker 1: the record with twenty one years about eleven as a

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Speaker 1: marine recon marine and then nine or ten as an

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Speaker 1: army infantry guy. So what happens now is I also

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Speaker 1: find in his and he was interviewed in the town

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Speaker 1: up there. And you may not notice, but I know

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Speaker 1: a lot of your readers will he is interviewed and

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Speaker 1: I actually have copies of of this and that's a

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Speaker 1: little picture of him right there. Oh yeah, getting from

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Speaker 1: a different perspective, you know, very exactly old school green

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Speaker 1: Beret right there, right, I mean, that's exactly well he

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Speaker 1: says in this article he said that he was part

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Speaker 1: of the Sante Raid. Now, I don't know if you

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Speaker 1: ever heard of the Sante Raid, but it was a

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Speaker 1: very famous Any Special Forces guy back that time knows

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Speaker 1: the story that it was a pow camp that was

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Speaker 1: near Hannoy that was supposedly had Americans in it, and

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Speaker 1: they hand picked I don't know exactly fifty in the

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Speaker 1: fifties the sixties numbers of of green Berets, special green

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Speaker 1: Berets who trained and then we're sent over there to

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Speaker 1: do this raid. It was a very special way they

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Speaker 1: trained because that was the basis for all their future

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Speaker 1: planning cycles about how they would plan for something in

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Speaker 1: special Forces kind of thing. So it was very turning

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Speaker 1: time and how they would accomplish some of those things. Well,

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Speaker 1: he said that he was part of this. Uh, they've

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Speaker 1: since then some of those things have been made public

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Speaker 1: and he was not on the list he was not

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Speaker 1: on the list of Green Berets that was selected to

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Speaker 1: to do this. That was a very special group kind

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Speaker 1: of thing, all right, So I got you that that, uh,

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Speaker 1: right now, this this guy thinks that he's also going

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Speaker 1: through some of the some of the medals that he had,

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Speaker 1: just real quick and try to just give you your

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Speaker 1: readers some of this information. So he's got a Navy Cross,

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Speaker 1: a DSc, Distinguished Service Cross, two silver stars, the Navy

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Speaker 1: Marine Corps Medal, the Distinguished Flying Cross, Bronze Star Medal

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Speaker 1: with four oak leaf clusters with the V device, six

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Speaker 1: purple hearts, Navy Commendation Medal with the device, Army Commendation Medal,

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Speaker 1: third oak leaf cluster with the device, three Air medals,

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Speaker 1: Presidential Unit citation from the Army, Presidential Unit citation from

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Speaker 1: the Marine Corps, Valorous Unit Award, Navy Unit citation. He's

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Speaker 1: got the five Good Conduct medals. He's got the c

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Speaker 1: I B obviously, and other Vietnam medals would cross, the

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Speaker 1: Gallantry Cross with pomb, Gallantry Cross with gold star. He

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Speaker 1: has a Vietnam Service Medal with nine stars. Now, all

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Speaker 1: you soldiers and people who are familiar with those things,

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Speaker 1: you know, what that means that that man he probably

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Speaker 1: spent like about five tours there in Vietnam. He says

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Speaker 1: that he was a Green Beret. He was a ranger Airborne,

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Speaker 1: He was a POW that he escaped from. He was

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Speaker 1: alert a long range reconnaissance patrol in the In the Army,

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Speaker 1: he was in the Marines. Marines, he was recon recon

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Speaker 1: marine exactly when he got out of the Marine Corps

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Speaker 1: and then enlisted into the Army. Now during this time,

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Speaker 1: we're getting ready for trial, and I remember, I'm just

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Speaker 1: trying to get this guy to a trial. Now, the

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Speaker 1: notebook becomes very big because in it they identified everybody

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Speaker 1: that worked for for lindsay, everybody in the organization, how

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Speaker 1: much drugs they sold, how much money they made, who

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Speaker 1: they gave the money to. All these kind of things

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Speaker 1: were identified in this notebook, which was like gold to me.

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Speaker 1: You know, this was like yeah, yeah, usually, why are

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Speaker 1: you giving me this? Yeah? It was fantastic, Actually, I

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Speaker 1: mean really yeah, really, I didn't need much more than

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Speaker 1: this notebook and to have people to testify to that information.

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Speaker 1: So we go, this case goes forward. He gets indicted

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Speaker 1: because we put all the people that worked for him,

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Speaker 1: said that he was intimidating, threatening, He threatened to kill

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Speaker 1: the two people that wrote the notebook. He's suspected of

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Speaker 1: possibly killing some people. We indict him. He goes to

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Speaker 1: we get ready for trial, and we offered the a

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Speaker 1: U s. A who's assigned to this case, offers him

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Speaker 1: fifteen years now. He's looking at maybe five, the fifty

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Speaker 1: years too. Two like these weapons with the silencers, So

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Speaker 1: when you commit crimes with weapons present and silencers, those

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Speaker 1: kind of things it added at that time. It was

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Speaker 1: adding significant time on to a person getting sentenced if

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Speaker 1: he's convicted. So he says he declines the fifteen years.

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Speaker 1: He says, not doing that, I'm gonna plead innocent and

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Speaker 1: go to trial. Hey, this is rad with Software Radio,

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Speaker 1: and I just want to talk to you about Brandon

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Speaker 1: Webb and John David Man. Right, okay, these two guys

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Speaker 1: have been hammering out books and they just brought you

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Speaker 1: a new one with Cold Fear. That's right. New York

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Speaker 1: Times bestselling authors Brandon Webb and John David Mann have

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Speaker 1: just put out Cold Fear. It is the Adventures of

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Speaker 1: Finn the Navy Seal. You gotta check it out. Read

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Speaker 1: that book. I think it's gonna come out on audible,

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Speaker 1: So Brandon Webb, John David Mann props. So we get

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Speaker 1: ready for trial. And now, remember, to me, the military

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Speaker 1: portion of this is not that significant to me in

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Speaker 1: the aspects of finding if this guy is guilty. At

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Speaker 1: this time. He's guilty of selling cocaine. We know who

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Speaker 1: he bought from, who he bought kilos from, we know

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Speaker 1: who we sold it to, we know how much he sold.

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Speaker 1: So we had all this information together in this book

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Speaker 1: that of course I sent it to our racketeering section

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Speaker 1: and they made it look like unbelievable. I could, you know,

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Speaker 1: identify people from this and it was very, very very

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Speaker 1: easy to do. So we go to trial and we

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Speaker 1: find out that he's going to plead innocent by reason

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Speaker 1: of insanity. He's going to plead that he's PTSD. So

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Speaker 1: now it becomes very important about his military information. And

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Speaker 1: I knew early on with this guy there was there's

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Speaker 1: just something rad not right about him. Like I said,

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Speaker 1: I had spent time in the military, and most people

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Speaker 1: who I came into contact with that had earned a medal.

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Speaker 1: And I've seen people on your show that they speak

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Speaker 1: about a bronze star with a v device or a

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Speaker 1: silver Star, and it's it's like it's so they're so

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Speaker 1: proud one of those things. Yeah, and they're humble about them.

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Speaker 1: They're not you know, they're they're going, yeah, they I

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Speaker 1: got this, but my job, it was my job. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's just my job. You know, it's just my job,

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Speaker 1: just my job. These guys are like, oh, you know, well,

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Speaker 1: And I asked, one of my guys is green brands,

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Speaker 1: like you got clusters? Yeah? You know, I just did tours.

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Speaker 1: That's all it is. It's yeah, but I know what

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Speaker 1: goes in that. Okay, I get it, So go ahead, exactly. Men.

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Speaker 1: So everything's now we're going to trial. And now I

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Speaker 1: go to the U. S attorney and I said, listen,

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Speaker 1: you know Jack, his name was Jack mccamp. I said, Jack,

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Speaker 1: we need to make sure that we get his military records,

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Speaker 1: and we need to start looking at them because you know,

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Speaker 1: this guy just doesn't feel right. There's something not right

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Speaker 1: about this guy. So he does he orders the records,

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Speaker 1: we get them, and to this like three inch stick

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Speaker 1: of his Marine Corps record and of his army record.

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Speaker 1: So he looked through it and then he says to me,

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Speaker 1: you you might want to take a look through this thing.

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Speaker 1: So I started flipping through this rat Now, now I

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Speaker 1: was in the military, but I think I earned like

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Speaker 1: the National Defense Service Medal. I got the Good Conduct Medal,

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Speaker 1: you know, but that's about it. And so I start

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Speaker 1: looking through and I get to some of the pages

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Speaker 1: and I come across the Navy Cross, and I'm reading

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Speaker 1: the citation that's in his record, right, mean, the citation

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Speaker 1: is right there, and I'm reading it that he killed,

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Speaker 1: he was overwhelmed that they were in this firefight, he

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Speaker 1: was trying to protect his team, blah blah blah whatever.

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Speaker 1: And then all of a sudden he's given his awarded,

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Speaker 1: the Navy Cross. Later he there's he's so star award.

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Speaker 1: I'm reading bronze stars with the devices uh accommendation medals,

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Speaker 1: purple hearts. I'm just going, oh my gosh, man, this

401
00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:32,680
Speaker 1: is this guy is for real. Yeah, the V Stancer

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Speaker 1: of Valor. Right, to our listener out there, the V

403
00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:37,520
Speaker 1: stands for like even above and beyond the award. It

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Speaker 1: has a V on it, right, for valor. Right. It

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Speaker 1: means that they were in combat when he got that award.

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Speaker 1: So he it's not you know, you can get a

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Speaker 1: Bronze Star and not be in combat. But you you

408
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Speaker 1: can't get that. You can't get a Navy Cross or

409
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Speaker 1: a d SC or a silver star without being a

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Speaker 1: combat But this guy and rad I'm reading all the

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Speaker 1: citations like, oh my gosh, man, it's like he is

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Speaker 1: for real. This guy is for real, you know. So

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Speaker 1: the only thing that stood out, the only thing that

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Speaker 1: stood out to me at that moment was the Navy Cross.

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Speaker 1: Was there was a copy in his Army record, but

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Speaker 1: it was there was no copy in his Navy record

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Speaker 1: in the Marine Corps record. So I said, wow, that's

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Speaker 1: either that's a mistake or something that maybe they mixed

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Speaker 1: it up. So I said, we need to find out

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Speaker 1: about that, you know. So now times going on. Now

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Speaker 1: we go to trial and put on probably twenty four

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Speaker 1: witnesses of like the two people who wrote the notebook,

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Speaker 1: and then about twenty more people who are given a

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Speaker 1: lighter sentence for their testimony there are And that's how

425
00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:01,359
Speaker 1: you know, we do it in the in the federal

426
00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:04,520
Speaker 1: government kind of thing. We we have people who will

427
00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:10,159
Speaker 1: testify against the kingpin, if you will, and they get

428
00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:14,040
Speaker 1: rewarded by getting a lesser sentence. Kind of thing. So

429
00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:19,560
Speaker 1: all these four and say that, yeah, we saw drugs

430
00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:22,760
Speaker 1: for David. We sold it at high school, we sold

431
00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:26,600
Speaker 1: them in his bar. And a lot of these people

432
00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:31,640
Speaker 1: were seventeen eighteen years old when they started selling for him,

433
00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:36,679
Speaker 1: and they started in around is eighty three to about

434
00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:41,640
Speaker 1: eighty nine or so. So we go through this whole process,

435
00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:43,680
Speaker 1: and you know, the a U S A, the assistant

436
00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:48,080
Speaker 1: U S attorneys while convinced that, okay, we've proven that

437
00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:53,640
Speaker 1: David Lindsay sold these this cocaine and is guilty of

438
00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:59,200
Speaker 1: doing those things. Right, So now the defense hasn't brought

439
00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:03,560
Speaker 1: up anything at So the defenses turn now and they

440
00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:07,440
Speaker 1: go up there. They talk about First of all, Lindsey

441
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:13,080
Speaker 1: testifies about his Marines all all the awards he earned. Right,

442
00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:16,400
Speaker 1: so he's talking about his record, his military resume. He's

443
00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:19,960
Speaker 1: testified saying that this is me, this is me, and

444
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:22,640
Speaker 1: you're watching him say this is me, and you're like,

445
00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:26,680
Speaker 1: got you, But I don't have them. I don't have

446
00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:30,480
Speaker 1: them yet. So okay, I'm like, I'm sitting there listening

447
00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:34,440
Speaker 1: to this and oh man, now he's revealing to the

448
00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:38,840
Speaker 1: jury his why he's suffering and why he should be

449
00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:43,920
Speaker 1: given a term at a mental institution, not in a

450
00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:47,920
Speaker 1: federal prison. Got you on the stand, he's telling you

451
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:51,000
Speaker 1: about his military record and you've already kind of stumbled

452
00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:54,080
Speaker 1: onto it, or where does that lead you? Now? Well,

453
00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:58,960
Speaker 1: at this point it's him getting his military record on

454
00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:02,200
Speaker 1: on the record. So now the jury is here and

455
00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:05,760
Speaker 1: that he was this war hero. Up to this point

456
00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:09,520
Speaker 1: that was not revealed. All it was in the beginning

457
00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:13,520
Speaker 1: the prosecution was that he's a drug dealer. So now

458
00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:17,760
Speaker 1: it's being revealed that he spent you know, five tours

459
00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:21,840
Speaker 1: in Vietnam, and that he was a Vietnam hero and

460
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:26,239
Speaker 1: had earned multiple valor awards. So he went through that

461
00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:28,480
Speaker 1: list that I was giving you. Now what I didn't

462
00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:31,800
Speaker 1: tell you rad was on the morning of the trial began.

463
00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:37,040
Speaker 1: I was called into the judges chambers with the assistant

464
00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:42,400
Speaker 1: U S. Attorney and the judge behind his head in

465
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:48,680
Speaker 1: his chambers is the globe and anchor. He's a former marine, right,

466
00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:55,680
Speaker 1: So he's holding up Lindsay's d D two fourteen and

467
00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:59,800
Speaker 1: he says to us, you guys, have you seen this

468
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:03,920
Speaker 1: d D to fourteen And we're just nodded, and he said,

469
00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:09,560
Speaker 1: this guy is a real American hero. He said, you

470
00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:15,360
Speaker 1: two better be right. He said, now get out. So

471
00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:18,320
Speaker 1: at this point I was like, we're shocked, you know

472
00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:27,080
Speaker 1: that that this occurred. And uh so yeah, the judges

473
00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:31,400
Speaker 1: a former marine. So anyway, so we go back and

474
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:35,560
Speaker 1: now the trials trials well advanced now, and now he

475
00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:40,440
Speaker 1: calls Lindsay calls, I mean, the attorney for Lindsey calls

476
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:43,959
Speaker 1: one of his sons, and his son is called his

477
00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:48,920
Speaker 1: name David Lindsay from a different mother. And he goes

478
00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:52,080
Speaker 1: on the stand and the U S attorney questions him

479
00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:56,560
Speaker 1: and he sounds like he got caught in a lie. Well,

480
00:31:56,600 --> 00:32:00,720
Speaker 1: Lindsay jumps out of the chair and starts running at

481
00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:04,600
Speaker 1: the a u S A like to attack him, and

482
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:07,880
Speaker 1: he gets tackled by the court staff kind of thing,

483
00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:13,240
Speaker 1: and the jurors are dismissed for a moment, and when

484
00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:16,960
Speaker 1: he comes back, he tells everybody, okay, just disregard that

485
00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:20,120
Speaker 1: he was a little upset and you know, don't let

486
00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:24,320
Speaker 1: that be part of your decision. So later on on

487
00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:30,280
Speaker 1: that same day, the FBI gets contacted by a person

488
00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:34,520
Speaker 1: who's in the in the prison with David Lindsay, and

489
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:38,440
Speaker 1: he comes forward and says Hey, listen, I have some

490
00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:43,440
Speaker 1: information about this guy Lindsay. He came to me and

491
00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:47,960
Speaker 1: he wanted to put a hit out on his one

492
00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:52,320
Speaker 1: son that testified for ten tho dollars, and he wants

493
00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:56,120
Speaker 1: to put a hit out on the assistant U S attorney.

494
00:32:56,200 --> 00:33:01,520
Speaker 1: So Lindsay's in prison trying to I are somebody to

495
00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:06,040
Speaker 1: kill the assistant U. S attorney and one of his

496
00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:10,560
Speaker 1: other sons who testified against him. Yeah, so now this

497
00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:13,640
Speaker 1: doesn't go any further and it doesn't become part of

498
00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:18,200
Speaker 1: this trial because it's a whole different arena kind of thing.

499
00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:22,120
Speaker 1: But the FBI handled it and was able to this

500
00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:25,440
Speaker 1: guy was able to cooperate, you know, cooperate and and

501
00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:29,080
Speaker 1: he was reduced in some sentence or whatever he had done.

502
00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:32,600
Speaker 1: So but I just want you to know again, this

503
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:37,080
Speaker 1: guy is doing all the things that not a hero

504
00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:41,880
Speaker 1: does kind of thing. So now we're back in trial

505
00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:46,280
Speaker 1: and they put on the stand the defense does. They

506
00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:53,840
Speaker 1: put on three witnesses, psychiatrists who testify that Lindsay suffering

507
00:33:53,880 --> 00:34:01,280
Speaker 1: from PTSD. One of the doctors is an unbelievable skilled

508
00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:07,240
Speaker 1: psychiatrist and medical doctor. Actually, he was the head of

509
00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:14,719
Speaker 1: the Columbia University psychiatry program. He also was the director

510
00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:19,960
Speaker 1: of psychiatry for the State of New York. He was

511
00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:24,600
Speaker 1: a professor at the Columbia University. He was also a

512
00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:30,560
Speaker 1: professor of psychiatry at Minnesota University. He became the head

513
00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:34,960
Speaker 1: of the psychiatry program at the Veterans Administration in Albany,

514
00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:40,640
Speaker 1: New York, and had his own private psychiatry practice. Based

515
00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:44,759
Speaker 1: on the five tours he did in Vietnam, based on

516
00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:50,239
Speaker 1: the awards that he received and the injuries he received,

517
00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:55,640
Speaker 1: that he was the worst case of PTSD he had

518
00:34:55,680 --> 00:35:01,440
Speaker 1: ever seen. That, Brad. You could see it on the

519
00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:08,800
Speaker 1: jury's faces that they at that point had I believe.

520
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:12,719
Speaker 1: I believe at that point, I believe that we're going

521
00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:15,799
Speaker 1: to find this guy innocent by reason of insanity and

522
00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:20,520
Speaker 1: send him to a mental institution. And it didn't matter

523
00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:23,600
Speaker 1: how many people we put on the stand to say

524
00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:27,280
Speaker 1: that he had sold and distributed cocaine. That didn't matter

525
00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:33,600
Speaker 1: at that point. So now the defense or the prosecution

526
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:38,719
Speaker 1: puts on three doctors who say that he's not suffering

527
00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:47,080
Speaker 1: from PTSD. But this doctor, Lawrence Cobb, is so believable

528
00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:53,279
Speaker 1: and so experienced that I thought my personal feeling was

529
00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:56,839
Speaker 1: that it was over, you know, pretty much as far

530
00:35:56,880 --> 00:36:02,720
Speaker 1: as going to a federal convinced you of mental convinced

531
00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:08,640
Speaker 1: you're the investigator. And now I'm I'm actually rethinking, like, man,

532
00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:11,160
Speaker 1: it was I Was I wrong about this guy? Did

533
00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:14,640
Speaker 1: I my my senses for this guy? Were? Were they

534
00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:19,560
Speaker 1: that far wrong? You know? And so now I want

535
00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:21,400
Speaker 1: to get to the heart of this thing. Awhere the

536
00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:26,600
Speaker 1: drama came into this trial, man, was that I didn't

537
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:31,720
Speaker 1: know about it because it's the night before closing arguments,

538
00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:35,800
Speaker 1: Right the night before we're gonna close out the arguments

539
00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:38,080
Speaker 1: and say, okay, it's up to the juror now to

540
00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:43,480
Speaker 1: jury to decide the fate of David Lindsay. But I

541
00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:47,440
Speaker 1: didn't know was that there's a chief warrant officer who

542
00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:53,080
Speaker 1: works for the Department of the Army, and I want

543
00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:57,279
Speaker 1: to look up his his his title, he works for

544
00:36:57,320 --> 00:37:01,720
Speaker 1: the awards branch, and what his job was in the Army.

545
00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:05,560
Speaker 1: As a chief warrant officer at the awards branch, he

546
00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:11,160
Speaker 1: was responsible for tending to all the Medal of Honor

547
00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:15,960
Speaker 1: winners that were currently alive or he at all he

548
00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:21,600
Speaker 1: had access, yes, so he had access to all the

549
00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:27,120
Speaker 1: official records, right, that's right, So he can see the

550
00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:31,840
Speaker 1: location for the original records where they're stored at in Washington.

551
00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:37,760
Speaker 1: So he has his designation access to all those records.

552
00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:45,880
Speaker 1: So he is yeah, you know, yeah for sure, yeah,

553
00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:50,160
Speaker 1: part of his and he would be like, oh yeah.

554
00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:53,160
Speaker 1: One of the other things he does is he looks

555
00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:59,040
Speaker 1: after anybody who challenges an award and like they have

556
00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:02,840
Speaker 1: they questioned whether they should have gotten an award or

557
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:06,640
Speaker 1: didn't get one, and he oversees about that. And he

558
00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:12,160
Speaker 1: also oversees fraud. Right. So he had already gone to

559
00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:16,960
Speaker 1: the USA and sat down with him for like four

560
00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:20,279
Speaker 1: or five hours the night before, and I didn't know

561
00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:23,640
Speaker 1: about that. I didn't know that this warrant officer had

562
00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:26,799
Speaker 1: come from the Department of Defense, that the Pentagon kind

563
00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:30,440
Speaker 1: of thing, and now he was going to testify and

564
00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:33,600
Speaker 1: I didn't know what it was. And when he came

565
00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:36,040
Speaker 1: into court, the U. S A just looked at me

566
00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:39,480
Speaker 1: and said, way, do you see what happens? And I'm going,

567
00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:53,600
Speaker 1: what what what? What? What's going to happen? Them listening

568
00:38:53,719 --> 00:38:54,800
Speaker 1: to self reply