1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:06,800 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:14,680 Speaker 2: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 3 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:17,560 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I am Joe McCormick, 4 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:20,520 Speaker 1: and it is Crab Season on Stuff to Blow Your Mind. 5 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:24,200 Speaker 1: That's not really a season corresponding to anything on the calendar, 6 00:00:24,239 --> 00:00:26,480 Speaker 1: but every now and then we just kind of get 7 00:00:26,560 --> 00:00:29,400 Speaker 1: crab fever. We have to let the decapods take over 8 00:00:29,440 --> 00:00:32,360 Speaker 1: the show, and that's what we are doing today. We're 9 00:00:32,440 --> 00:00:36,479 Speaker 1: kicking off the first in a series of crab Bag episodes, 10 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:38,879 Speaker 1: the sort of a grab bag of various topics that 11 00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:42,839 Speaker 1: caught our fancy related to crabs. And this was in 12 00:00:42,920 --> 00:00:46,960 Speaker 1: part a listeners suggestion, so encouragement to all you listeners 13 00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:49,040 Speaker 1: out there to send in topics you would like to 14 00:00:49,040 --> 00:00:52,400 Speaker 1: hear more about. Obviously we can't always promise to cover them, 15 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:56,120 Speaker 1: but we do sometimes take inspiration on our show calendar 16 00:00:56,200 --> 00:00:59,120 Speaker 1: from listener requests. So in our. 17 00:00:59,160 --> 00:01:00,840 Speaker 2: Specially if you asked, he has to do something we 18 00:01:00,840 --> 00:01:03,760 Speaker 2: were going to do anyway, like more crab content. I 19 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:06,800 Speaker 2: think when that question came, we ran that listener mail 20 00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:08,920 Speaker 2: episode and I was like, oh yeah, actually tomorrow's episode 21 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:11,920 Speaker 2: is Crabs. The Crabs will always return. 22 00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:15,000 Speaker 1: But a shout out to listener Hannah who asked very 23 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:19,320 Speaker 1: politely for new Crab content, and here we are too oblige. 24 00:01:19,640 --> 00:01:23,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, so if you are new to the show, we're 25 00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:25,560 Speaker 2: stuffed to blow your mind. We've been around as an 26 00:01:25,560 --> 00:01:30,080 Speaker 2: audio podcast forever and we've done video in the past. 27 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:31,840 Speaker 2: You can find we have a YouTube channel with some 28 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:34,479 Speaker 2: old content on it, but for the most part here 29 00:01:34,560 --> 00:01:38,000 Speaker 2: on Netflix. If you're watching us on Netflix, it's a 30 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:41,680 Speaker 2: new effort. We're figuring things out, trying new things every day. 31 00:01:42,120 --> 00:01:44,400 Speaker 2: We probably look a little everything looks a little bit 32 00:01:44,400 --> 00:01:46,920 Speaker 2: different compared to the way it looked in the last episode. 33 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:49,720 Speaker 2: So we're constantly trying to improve. But if you'll hear 34 00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:53,160 Speaker 2: us reference episodes that are only in the audio archives, 35 00:01:53,160 --> 00:01:55,920 Speaker 2: and you can find those wherever you get your audio podcasts. 36 00:01:56,360 --> 00:02:00,120 Speaker 1: And just to clarify so nobody's confused out there, the 37 00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:03,280 Speaker 1: video version of the show now available on Netflix. If 38 00:02:03,320 --> 00:02:05,160 Speaker 1: you are watching on Netflix, or if you would like 39 00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:07,800 Speaker 1: to check it out on Netflix, the video version is 40 00:02:07,840 --> 00:02:10,080 Speaker 1: the same content. It's the same show we're running in 41 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:12,600 Speaker 1: our audio feed. It's just with the cameras turned on 42 00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:15,600 Speaker 1: so you can see us while we're talking. But it's 43 00:02:15,639 --> 00:02:17,840 Speaker 1: the same show, same kind of thing we've been doing 44 00:02:17,880 --> 00:02:20,440 Speaker 1: for many, many years. But now you can see our heads. 45 00:02:20,840 --> 00:02:23,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, see our heads, and I think there are fewer ads. 46 00:02:24,440 --> 00:02:27,240 Speaker 2: So yeah, if that your deal, this is just another 47 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:30,480 Speaker 2: way to consume the show. All right, Well, Joe, should 48 00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:33,720 Speaker 2: we go ahead and dig into the crab grab bag 49 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:38,440 Speaker 2: or crab bag or crab grab bag? What do we have? 50 00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:39,680 Speaker 2: What have you got for us? 51 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:42,080 Speaker 1: So the first thing I wanted to talk about today 52 00:02:42,360 --> 00:02:46,160 Speaker 1: is a miracle crab, a holy crab. I'm going to 53 00:02:46,200 --> 00:02:50,080 Speaker 1: begin by reading a passage from a book called The 54 00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:54,400 Speaker 1: Life and Letters of Saint Francis Xavier. This book is 55 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:58,640 Speaker 1: by Henry James Coleridge from eighteen seventy two. The author 56 00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:02,000 Speaker 1: of this book, Henry James Coleridge, was a nineteenth century 57 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:05,360 Speaker 1: English Jesuit priest and writer and a bit of trivia. 58 00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:08,320 Speaker 1: The grand nephew or I don't know if it's called 59 00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:13,000 Speaker 1: great nephew. His grandfather's brother was Samuel Taylor Coleridge, the 60 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:18,240 Speaker 1: English Roman Romantic era poet and the author of Rhyme 61 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:21,399 Speaker 1: and the ancient mariner Kubla Khan, that sort of thing. 62 00:03:22,240 --> 00:03:25,480 Speaker 1: So this is a decidedly less psychedelic and monstrous work 63 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:28,720 Speaker 1: than Rhyme and the Ancient Mariner. This is a biography 64 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:34,400 Speaker 1: of a Catholic saint of the sixteenth century Navarrees, Catholic 65 00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:38,760 Speaker 1: priest and missionary, Saint Francis Xavier, who was one of 66 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:42,280 Speaker 1: the founders of the Society of jesus Aka the Jesuits. 67 00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:45,840 Speaker 1: You've probably heard of them, major Catholic order. He was 68 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:49,120 Speaker 1: one of its founders, and a big part of Saint 69 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:54,040 Speaker 1: Francis Xavier's legacy in the Church is missionary work, efforts 70 00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:57,840 Speaker 1: to spread Christianity in parts of what is now India, Japan, 71 00:03:58,080 --> 00:04:03,240 Speaker 1: and Indonesia. So the context of this biographical section in 72 00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:07,360 Speaker 1: the book is that Francis Xavior is in the middle 73 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:10,520 Speaker 1: of his mission in the Molucca Islands. So he's traveling 74 00:04:10,560 --> 00:04:14,320 Speaker 1: between small ports on a kind of outrigor vessel and 75 00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:17,400 Speaker 1: stopping to preach in different places, and I think also 76 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:20,480 Speaker 1: to visit communities of Christians, like in the Philippines and 77 00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:26,039 Speaker 1: in Indonesia. And Coleridge says that we get the following 78 00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:31,080 Speaker 1: story from a source called the Relatio, which is based 79 00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:36,560 Speaker 1: on the alleged eyewitness testimony of a man named Fausto Rodriguez, 80 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:40,440 Speaker 1: a Portuguese soldier who had been traveling along with Saint 81 00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:43,680 Speaker 1: Francis Xavior on his journeys. So here I'm going to 82 00:04:43,720 --> 00:04:47,640 Speaker 1: begin to read from Coleridge. They were sailing to Baranura 83 00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:50,680 Speaker 1: when a sudden storm came on, and to appease it, 84 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:55,520 Speaker 1: Francis Xavier took from his neck a crucifix one finger long. 85 00:04:55,680 --> 00:04:58,960 Speaker 1: Rodriguez says, so it was the small crucifix that he 86 00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:02,000 Speaker 1: wore on his heart and dipped it into the sea, 87 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:05,760 Speaker 1: leaning over the boat's side. And I've read about this 88 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:09,720 Speaker 1: encounter in other sources. There are different tellings of this 89 00:05:09,839 --> 00:05:13,360 Speaker 1: story where the details vary somewhat, but the idea is 90 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:15,880 Speaker 1: it's a terrible storm, the ship is being tossed by 91 00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:18,320 Speaker 1: the waves. In some of these other tellings it's even 92 00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:20,800 Speaker 1: more dramatic, like people are being washed out of the 93 00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:24,640 Speaker 1: boat into the sea. Somehow they get rescued. And in 94 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:28,040 Speaker 1: the midst of this madness, the priest decides to invoke 95 00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:30,960 Speaker 1: the power of the Cross to beg for safe passage, 96 00:05:31,279 --> 00:05:34,360 Speaker 1: and he sort of uses the principle of blessing by touch, 97 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:37,159 Speaker 1: so he reaches out and he dips the crucifix into 98 00:05:37,200 --> 00:05:41,320 Speaker 1: the water, and while he is dunking the cross in 99 00:05:41,440 --> 00:05:44,840 Speaker 1: the waves. In the version of the story told by Coleridge, quote, 100 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:48,200 Speaker 1: it chanced that it slipped from his hand into the sea, 101 00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:52,320 Speaker 1: which accidents so greatly afflicted Xavier that he gave great 102 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:57,880 Speaker 1: signs of grief. But fortunately for the travelers, they survive 103 00:05:57,960 --> 00:05:59,719 Speaker 1: the storm, and they make it to the shore of 104 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:04,159 Speaker 1: their destination, an island called Baranura in the Source, and 105 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:06,800 Speaker 1: they're unharmed. So they pull the boat up onto the 106 00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:10,160 Speaker 1: beach and they start walking along the coast toward a 107 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:13,320 Speaker 1: town called Tamlow. And here's where the miracle part had 108 00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:17,239 Speaker 1: Coleridge writes, quote when they had walked half a mile 109 00:06:17,320 --> 00:06:19,920 Speaker 1: and were now many miles away from where the crucifix 110 00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:22,560 Speaker 1: had been lost. And then here I think it begins 111 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:28,680 Speaker 1: to quote from a direct translation of Fausto Rodriguez's account, quote, Behold, 112 00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:32,080 Speaker 1: a sea crab runs out of the sea onto the 113 00:06:32,080 --> 00:06:36,680 Speaker 1: shore with the aforesaid crucifix, holding it in his claws 114 00:06:36,760 --> 00:06:40,840 Speaker 1: on either side, upright, and lifted up, and so ran 115 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:44,159 Speaker 1: to Xavier and stopped in his sight. And Xavier flung 116 00:06:44,240 --> 00:06:47,680 Speaker 1: himself on his knees, and the crab waited until he 117 00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:50,680 Speaker 1: had taken the crucifix from its claws, and then ran 118 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:54,039 Speaker 1: back again into the sea whence it had come, and 119 00:06:54,160 --> 00:06:57,840 Speaker 1: Xavier kissed and embraced the crucifix, and, crossing his arms 120 00:06:57,839 --> 00:07:00,360 Speaker 1: on his breast, lay prostrate on the ground on for 121 00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:03,320 Speaker 1: half an hour, and his companion, who was by his side, 122 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:06,479 Speaker 1: did the same, thanking the Lord Jesus Christ for so 123 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:10,960 Speaker 1: strange a miracle. And so I love this story, and 124 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:14,240 Speaker 1: I'm glad that the original alleged witness of the event 125 00:07:14,320 --> 00:07:17,640 Speaker 1: acknowledges that as far as miracles go, this has a 126 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:22,760 Speaker 1: weird flavor like especially I think because it involves the 127 00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:26,280 Speaker 1: symbol of Christian salvation gripped in the claw of a crab, 128 00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:27,760 Speaker 1: or in both claws, I think it. 129 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:33,040 Speaker 2: Says, yeah, yeah, I'm imagining it lifted over its head. Yeahs. 130 00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:37,000 Speaker 1: I don't know why this is. Crabs to me, are 131 00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:43,000 Speaker 1: not an image that naturally calls up thoughts of holiness 132 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 1: and Heaven and God. We see a lot of Christian 133 00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:51,560 Speaker 1: iconography that has especially mammals and birds and fishes, you know, 134 00:07:51,880 --> 00:07:55,480 Speaker 1: being you know fish, you know, Jesus' disciples being fishermen, 135 00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:59,360 Speaker 1: so they're fish, and Christian imagery we think of sheep, 136 00:07:59,480 --> 00:08:02,440 Speaker 1: of course, you know, being the flocks of Christ. Sometimes 137 00:08:02,480 --> 00:08:06,360 Speaker 1: there are deer, sometimes there are lions, things like that, 138 00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:09,800 Speaker 1: and then also you can think of birds like doves 139 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:14,400 Speaker 1: getting into the arthropod realm just feels more removed from 140 00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:17,720 Speaker 1: the light of God than the other types of animals do. 141 00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:18,480 Speaker 1: I don't know why. 142 00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:23,840 Speaker 2: Well, I mean, within the context of the Christian faith 143 00:08:23,920 --> 00:08:26,200 Speaker 2: that God made all of these animals, so you should 144 00:08:26,320 --> 00:08:29,000 Speaker 2: be able to see some reflection of God and everything. 145 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:31,800 Speaker 2: And I don't know, the crabs are hardly the most 146 00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:37,280 Speaker 2: problematic creature in which to look for some portion of God, 147 00:08:37,400 --> 00:08:40,240 Speaker 2: like you know, makes more sense than looking in some 148 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:42,640 Speaker 2: sort of terrifying parasite. 149 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:45,720 Speaker 1: Parasitoid wasp is the image of God. Yeah, and apparently 150 00:08:45,760 --> 00:08:46,560 Speaker 1: the crab is too. 151 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:51,560 Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, crabs do important work, absolutely the Lord's work. 152 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:54,520 Speaker 2: They are the children of God. But yeah, you don't 153 00:08:54,840 --> 00:08:56,920 Speaker 2: see them, or at least you don't think of them 154 00:08:57,480 --> 00:09:01,680 Speaker 2: as being a standout and religions psychography. 155 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:03,360 Speaker 1: I do think, Yeah, maybe this should help us think 156 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:07,600 Speaker 1: more about the crabs role and say, the decomposition of 157 00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:10,439 Speaker 1: dead matter in the natural environment and helping to break 158 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 1: all that down and how that is quite a holy job. 159 00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:17,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, we have discussed in the past, how given how 160 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:20,640 Speaker 2: into crabs we are and how into crabs I think 161 00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:24,360 Speaker 2: humans in general are, and crabs must be observed. I 162 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:27,720 Speaker 2: was thinking about this earlier, like, if you were near crabs, 163 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:30,880 Speaker 2: you must watch them like they are just amusing and 164 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:33,800 Speaker 2: you want to see more of them. So it is 165 00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:36,400 Speaker 2: kind of surprising at times that you don't see more 166 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:40,840 Speaker 2: crabs and crab like creatures in various mythologies. I mean, 167 00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:44,120 Speaker 2: they're there, but oh yeah, they at least to my eye, 168 00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:46,200 Speaker 2: they they often don't seem to play as large a 169 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:49,800 Speaker 2: role as I would like. You know, there are fewer 170 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:51,320 Speaker 2: crab gods than I would like. 171 00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:54,640 Speaker 1: I feel like maybe there are more crab gods outside 172 00:09:54,679 --> 00:09:59,680 Speaker 1: of Christianity. Maybe Christianity is particularly crab deficient religion. But 173 00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:05,160 Speaker 1: here's counter example. So despite the crabby weirdness of this story, 174 00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:09,080 Speaker 1: it is not like a totally obscure thing tucked away 175 00:10:09,160 --> 00:10:12,319 Speaker 1: that nobody's ever heard about. This is a widely discussed 176 00:10:12,360 --> 00:10:16,440 Speaker 1: and well known legend of Francis Xavior, and it was 177 00:10:16,559 --> 00:10:20,839 Speaker 1: one of the miracles discussed during his canonization in Rome. 178 00:10:21,559 --> 00:10:24,760 Speaker 1: It's even depicted in Renaissance art, and here I stumbled 179 00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:28,600 Speaker 1: across something that I thought was amazing. Rob, I have 180 00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:31,400 Speaker 1: a picture of a painting for you to look at 181 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:34,800 Speaker 1: in our outline. This is an oil on canvas painting 182 00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:38,920 Speaker 1: from sixteen nineteen called Saint Francis Xavior and the Crab 183 00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:42,760 Speaker 1: Miracle at Sarum Island. This is by the Portuguese painter 184 00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:46,560 Speaker 1: Andre Reynoso and it is currently housed in the Church 185 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:51,439 Speaker 1: of Saint Rock in Lisbon. This painting includes multiple parts 186 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:53,720 Speaker 1: of the story all shown at once. So in the 187 00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:57,160 Speaker 1: upper right hand corner, in a kind of hazy cpia tone, 188 00:10:57,200 --> 00:11:00,240 Speaker 1: almost like it's a dream, we see a ship rolling 189 00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:03,160 Speaker 1: in the waves with thunderclouds above, so this shows the 190 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:06,960 Speaker 1: earlier peril in the story. And the upper left we 191 00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:10,640 Speaker 1: see rays of light breaking through the clouds, almost like 192 00:11:10,640 --> 00:11:13,600 Speaker 1: the power of God coming down to intervene. And then 193 00:11:13,640 --> 00:11:16,880 Speaker 1: in the center of the frame you have Francis Xavier 194 00:11:16,920 --> 00:11:21,160 Speaker 1: and his companions gathered on the beach looking down in astonishment. 195 00:11:21,559 --> 00:11:24,120 Speaker 1: And then at the bottom right there is a crab 196 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:28,960 Speaker 1: clutching the crucifix straight up above its body with both claws. 197 00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:32,800 Speaker 1: And I was looking at the image of this crab 198 00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:36,560 Speaker 1: and thinking, why does this pose look so familiar? It's 199 00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:39,880 Speaker 1: pinging something that's like that I have seen and thought 200 00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:42,480 Speaker 1: about many times, and it took me a minute to 201 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:45,120 Speaker 1: figure out what it was, and then I realized, Oh 202 00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:49,920 Speaker 1: my god, this crab is Luke Skywalker in the original 203 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:54,079 Speaker 1: handpainted poster for Star Wars from nineteen seventy seven. If 204 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:56,720 Speaker 1: you look up both paintings, I think you will see it. 205 00:11:56,800 --> 00:12:02,719 Speaker 1: The resemblance is uncanny, especially because the crabs ribbed underside 206 00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:07,120 Speaker 1: kind of resembles the like absurd and non representative muscles 207 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:08,600 Speaker 1: they give Mark Hamill's chest. 208 00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:12,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you're talking about the original theatrical poster by 209 00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:17,600 Speaker 2: Tom Young. Yeah, iconic, And you're absolutely right, it's the 210 00:12:17,679 --> 00:12:22,880 Speaker 2: same pose like this. This either Luke Skywalker is channeling 211 00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:26,560 Speaker 2: the Holy Crab or the Holy Crab is giving us 212 00:12:26,559 --> 00:12:28,800 Speaker 2: a taste of what's wants it to come. I mean, 213 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:30,480 Speaker 2: it would sci fi cinema. 214 00:12:30,520 --> 00:12:33,120 Speaker 1: The Holy Crab is obviously hundreds of years earlier, so 215 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:34,960 Speaker 1: it would have to be inspired by I mean, I 216 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:37,440 Speaker 1: think it's just a coincidence. It would be bizarre to 217 00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:39,800 Speaker 1: me if this truly were inspired by the crab painting, 218 00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:45,520 Speaker 1: but it is the resemblance is unbelievable to me. Also 219 00:12:45,559 --> 00:12:49,240 Speaker 1: because the lightsaber in the original Star Wars poster for 220 00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:51,480 Speaker 1: some reason takes the shape of a cross. I don't 221 00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:53,960 Speaker 1: know why it does that, that it's never cross shaped 222 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:54,600 Speaker 1: in the movies. 223 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:56,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess it's supposed to be just like the 224 00:12:56,520 --> 00:12:59,480 Speaker 2: gleam the glare of the of the lightsaber here. But 225 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:04,880 Speaker 2: you're right, it even also forms a crucifix shape. Yeah. Wow, 226 00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:09,760 Speaker 2: I mean he is unable. So it is true some direct, 227 00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:12,880 Speaker 2: kind of direct comparison to be made between Luke Skywalker 228 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:14,040 Speaker 2: and Jesus Christ as well. 229 00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:17,600 Speaker 1: That's true, though I don't know if that comparison goes 230 00:13:17,640 --> 00:13:20,240 Speaker 1: to the crab, excepted just sort of by general association, 231 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:23,160 Speaker 1: because I don't get any idea that the crab in 232 00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:25,000 Speaker 1: the story is a metaphor for Jesus. 233 00:13:25,559 --> 00:13:28,680 Speaker 2: I don't know the crab ties it all together, I think. Yeah, 234 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:33,520 Speaker 2: So the nature of the miracle is thought provoking, right, 235 00:13:33,559 --> 00:13:37,680 Speaker 2: because I would be tempted to think, well, maybe the 236 00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:40,960 Speaker 2: real miracle was that they were saved from dangerous seas, 237 00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:44,480 Speaker 2: and that's kind of a mine. This is a minor 238 00:13:44,559 --> 00:13:47,000 Speaker 2: miracle on top of that, because in and of itself, 239 00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:51,439 Speaker 2: like a crab saved your crucifix, like I would I 240 00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:53,160 Speaker 2: don't know. I would think maybe we should have saved 241 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:57,239 Speaker 2: that miracle juice for for something a little more substantial. 242 00:13:57,320 --> 00:13:59,680 Speaker 2: But you know, I'm not going to question in the 243 00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:00,880 Speaker 2: ways of the divine here. 244 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:03,760 Speaker 1: Well, if something like this actually happened, I think it 245 00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:07,320 Speaker 1: would be astonishing, Like, given the magnitude of the sea, 246 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 1: if it truly happened that you dropped a crucifix into 247 00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:15,640 Speaker 1: the ocean and then you know, days later, many miles later, 248 00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:18,320 Speaker 1: you come ashore and you find a crab clutching the 249 00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:21,240 Speaker 1: exact same crucifix, I don't know, that would be pretty 250 00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:23,240 Speaker 1: remarkable to me, Like, what are the odds? 251 00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:28,720 Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, And it raises significant questions about about whether 252 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:31,840 Speaker 2: any variety of crab would be potentially carrying around something 253 00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:36,120 Speaker 2: like this, a non organic morsel that's main value would 254 00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:36,920 Speaker 2: be that it's shiny. 255 00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:40,240 Speaker 1: I mean, crabs do sometimes just like clutch things and 256 00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:43,120 Speaker 1: carry them around non a food thing. We've talked about 257 00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:45,000 Speaker 1: examples of this before, and in fact, maybe we can 258 00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:48,160 Speaker 1: even come back to this question later in the series. 259 00:14:48,280 --> 00:14:50,720 Speaker 1: Just the idea of crabs carrying things around that are 260 00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:54,280 Speaker 1: not food didn't prepare notes on that for today, but 261 00:14:54,520 --> 00:15:06,160 Speaker 1: that is something we could return to. So are you 262 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:08,680 Speaker 1: okay if I talked a little bit more about the 263 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:10,840 Speaker 1: crab in religious art? 264 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:12,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, let's do it, okay. 265 00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:15,640 Speaker 1: So I was looking for more detail on this painting 266 00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:19,280 Speaker 1: on the Xavier crab in art, and I found some 267 00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:23,480 Speaker 1: discussion in a book called Jesuit Art Brill's Research Perspectives 268 00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:26,560 Speaker 1: in Jesuit Studies. This is by an art scholar named 269 00:15:26,640 --> 00:15:30,840 Speaker 1: Mia Mochizuki, put out by the academic publisher Brill. And 270 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:34,920 Speaker 1: in this book, in this section of the book, Mochizuki 271 00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:39,920 Speaker 1: gives a retelling of the story, emphasizing the most fantastical 272 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:44,280 Speaker 1: and embellished version of the miracle legend, in which Xavier 273 00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:48,360 Speaker 1: not just gets the crucifix back later, but in this 274 00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:53,240 Speaker 1: version he intentionally throws his crucifix into the sea and 275 00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:57,520 Speaker 1: this successfully calms the storm and saves the ship. So 276 00:15:57,600 --> 00:16:01,680 Speaker 1: this is this version of the story has direct, intentional 277 00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:03,920 Speaker 1: and successful command of the weather. 278 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:06,280 Speaker 2: Do you think that the crucifix in this case does 279 00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:08,480 Speaker 2: not have a little vial of oil in it? Right? 280 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:11,280 Speaker 2: To call back to a previous episode that we. 281 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:13,720 Speaker 1: Did, Yeah, dropping oil in the water to calm the. 282 00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:18,280 Speaker 2: Waves also sometimes practiced by members of the clergy. 283 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:22,360 Speaker 1: So the yeah, I've forgotten some of the details on that, 284 00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:24,240 Speaker 1: but yeah, we go back and check that out in 285 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:27,120 Speaker 1: our archives if you want. But anyway, so in this 286 00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:31,120 Speaker 1: version of the story, he intentionally does calm the storm, 287 00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:33,040 Speaker 1: and then also you get the same detail we talked 288 00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:36,200 Speaker 1: about earlier, the crucifix is returned by the crab on 289 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:39,080 Speaker 1: the beach. I'll have a bit more to say about 290 00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:41,520 Speaker 1: the different versions of the story in a minute, But 291 00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:44,360 Speaker 1: regarding the art and the legend here, Motchizuki adds a 292 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:49,720 Speaker 1: few notes. One is that a Xavier scholar named Gaeorg Schurhammer, 293 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:53,520 Speaker 1: who lived eighteen eighty two to nineteen seventy one, argued 294 00:16:53,640 --> 00:16:57,560 Speaker 1: that this story may have introduced devotion to the image 295 00:16:57,560 --> 00:17:02,040 Speaker 1: of the crucifix within Japan, and also that it may 296 00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:07,080 Speaker 1: have been based on actually a local Buddhist legend that 297 00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:12,160 Speaker 1: Xavier or his traveling companions encountered during their time in Asia. 298 00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:15,560 Speaker 1: Here I'm going to read from Mochizuki's footnote quote the 299 00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:18,359 Speaker 1: miracle of the Crab bears a number of similarities with 300 00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:21,920 Speaker 1: the legend of the ninth century Buddhist priest Jikaku who 301 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:25,680 Speaker 1: used an image of a god of wisdom, Yakushi Yorai 302 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:29,359 Speaker 1: to calm the sea, one that was returned to him 303 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:31,800 Speaker 1: three years later by an octopus. 304 00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:35,440 Speaker 2: Oh wow. So, first of all, I love the idea 305 00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:38,560 Speaker 2: of the octopus bringing the holy emblem back as well. 306 00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:40,960 Speaker 2: But then also so we're looking at the possibility that 307 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:43,919 Speaker 2: this whole story was just appropriated, It was just co 308 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:46,240 Speaker 2: opted from existing traditions. 309 00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:52,280 Speaker 1: Potentially totally possible. Yeah, that the companions of Xavier to 310 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:54,600 Speaker 1: whom this story is traced back and again I'll talk 311 00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:57,080 Speaker 1: about the versions of the story in a minute, may 312 00:17:57,160 --> 00:18:01,359 Speaker 1: have been half remembering or somehow just co opting a 313 00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:04,199 Speaker 1: folk tale that they heard from the lands that they 314 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:07,240 Speaker 1: were traveling to. And in fact, there are some other 315 00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:11,200 Speaker 1: cases where this could be what's happening as well. Mochizuki 316 00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:15,679 Speaker 1: points out quote other legends of Xavier could also have 317 00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:19,600 Speaker 1: been appropriations of local folklore encountered on their travels, like 318 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:23,480 Speaker 1: the miracle of Xavier turning salt water into freshwater from 319 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:27,080 Speaker 1: a Malaysian legend. So there are other cases where it's 320 00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:30,440 Speaker 1: like places he traveled to had folk tales that are 321 00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:34,640 Speaker 1: remarkably similar to miracles that are later attributed to him 322 00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:39,200 Speaker 1: after his death. Okay, so regardless of where the story 323 00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:43,480 Speaker 1: came from, Mochizuki notes that images of crabs became a 324 00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:47,600 Speaker 1: standard part of the iconography of Xavier. And another example 325 00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:49,520 Speaker 1: I've got for you to look at in the outline here, Rob, 326 00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:53,600 Speaker 1: is this seventeenth century silver cross held by a crab. 327 00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:56,720 Speaker 1: This is now in the Portuguese city of Coimbra. But 328 00:18:56,760 --> 00:18:58,919 Speaker 1: it's like a silver crab. I don't know if it 329 00:18:58,920 --> 00:19:01,080 Speaker 1: has the right number of legs. This looks like a 330 00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:04,520 Speaker 1: crab with four legs and two claws, or maybe I'm 331 00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:07,359 Speaker 1: missing something here, but anyway, it's a silver crab holding 332 00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:09,920 Speaker 1: up across The cross is bigger than the crab itself, 333 00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:11,760 Speaker 1: so it's a mighty feet of strength. 334 00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:15,960 Speaker 2: This is amazing. I had never seen this before. 335 00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:18,280 Speaker 1: There's another thing I've got for you to look at 336 00:19:18,280 --> 00:19:22,720 Speaker 1: in the outline, Rob. This is a painting that Mochizuki 337 00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:26,720 Speaker 1: is talking about. It is a seventeenth century Japanese portrait 338 00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:31,159 Speaker 1: of Saint Francis Xavier from Kobe, which depicts Xavier with 339 00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:34,679 Speaker 1: a flaming red heart gripped against his breast, so he's 340 00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:37,040 Speaker 1: got his hands up in his chest like this and 341 00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:41,119 Speaker 1: he's holding this red heart with almost kind of i 342 00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:44,000 Speaker 1: don't know, kind of beams of little red tails coming 343 00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:45,680 Speaker 1: out of it. That looks sort of like the way 344 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:48,160 Speaker 1: you might represent the sun with rays coming out, except 345 00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:51,680 Speaker 1: it's all pink and red, and like, oh, that's a 346 00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:54,879 Speaker 1: kind of strange and interesting image. But then speaking about 347 00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:59,240 Speaker 1: this heart in the image, Mochizuki writes, quote, it's stylized 348 00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:05,320 Speaker 1: flames formed double duty as both fiery organ and miraculous crab. 349 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:08,240 Speaker 1: And I realized, oh my god, yes it's a heart, 350 00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:10,560 Speaker 1: but it really looks like a crab. It's a crab 351 00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:11,520 Speaker 1: and a heart. 352 00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:15,120 Speaker 2: Crab heart. And I'll add that the saint here looks 353 00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:17,840 Speaker 2: a little bit like coffin Joe. So there are a number 354 00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:18,680 Speaker 2: of things coming for it. 355 00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:23,080 Speaker 1: Absolutely, But the story of the Miraculous Crab does not 356 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:26,640 Speaker 1: end there, because it turns out the legend of Saint 357 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:30,840 Speaker 1: Francis Xavier has some connection, it seems, at least a 358 00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:34,439 Speaker 1: llegened and a few sources, some connection to not just 359 00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:38,840 Speaker 1: one individual miracle crab in the story, but to a 360 00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:44,239 Speaker 1: fully extant species of decapod crustacean, known sometimes as the 361 00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:47,760 Speaker 1: Holy crab or the crucifix Crab and Rob, I've got 362 00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:49,560 Speaker 1: a picture of the Crucifix crab for you to look 363 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:53,080 Speaker 1: at here in the outline. It's a kind of flat, 364 00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:56,080 Speaker 1: wide crab like. It's large, it has big swimming legs 365 00:20:56,119 --> 00:20:58,919 Speaker 1: in the back. It's kind of flat, and then you 366 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:01,199 Speaker 1: can see the the imagery on the top of it. 367 00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:03,359 Speaker 1: I'll describe that for the listeners in just a second, 368 00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:06,040 Speaker 1: but I should flag I found this photo along with 369 00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:09,480 Speaker 1: a blog post for the Western Australian Museum by Andrew 370 00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:16,040 Speaker 1: Josey called Holy Crab, the Crucifix crab caaribdis feriata and 371 00:21:16,359 --> 00:21:21,560 Speaker 1: a bit of detail Yeah now, yeah, that's the genus name. 372 00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:25,000 Speaker 1: So a bit of detail from this postcaribdis feriata is 373 00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:28,080 Speaker 1: found in the Indian and West Pacific Oceans and it 374 00:21:28,359 --> 00:21:31,280 Speaker 1: ranges pretty far from as far west as the eastern 375 00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:35,359 Speaker 1: coast of Africa to as far east as Japan and Australia. 376 00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:39,440 Speaker 1: Generally living in shallow waters with a rocky or sandy bottom. 377 00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:43,919 Speaker 1: It is eaten. Sometimes it is fished commercially and recreationally 378 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:47,679 Speaker 1: in some parts of I think India and Indonesia. But 379 00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:49,840 Speaker 1: I was reading other sources saying that some people I 380 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:52,960 Speaker 1: think probably especially some Christians do not eat it for 381 00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:56,880 Speaker 1: reasons you might imagine because it has a crucifix on it, 382 00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:00,920 Speaker 1: So the name crucifix crab comes from a cross shaped 383 00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:04,600 Speaker 1: pattern on the crab's carapace. On top of the crab, 384 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:08,520 Speaker 1: just behind its face, you will typically see a sort 385 00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:12,280 Speaker 1: of cone or bullhorn shaped band of a darker orange 386 00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:15,800 Speaker 1: or red set against a lighter background, and then within 387 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:19,679 Speaker 1: that red cone there is a pale hollow that is 388 00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:22,720 Speaker 1: often in the shape of a cross or crucifix, though 389 00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:25,040 Speaker 1: I think you could also easily read it as Zelda's 390 00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:29,280 Speaker 1: master sword, as a kind of winged what do you 391 00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:33,920 Speaker 1: call it hilt and cross hilt like that crossguard. I 392 00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:36,600 Speaker 1: don't know my sword terms, but from what I've read, 393 00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:41,040 Speaker 1: different populations of this crab have somewhat different marking, so 394 00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:44,640 Speaker 1: I think they are not all as clearly cruciform as 395 00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:46,359 Speaker 1: the pictures I've got for you to look at, Rob. 396 00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:49,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, because the crab I'm seeing in this image. I 397 00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:51,560 Speaker 2: don't know about you, Joe, but I would not feel 398 00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:54,359 Speaker 2: confident trying to repel a vampire with this crab. 399 00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:58,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, it is a little weird. Like the crucifix, the 400 00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:02,040 Speaker 1: beams of the fix do not feel like wooden planks. 401 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:05,120 Speaker 1: They're not of a consistent thickness. It's kind of thicker 402 00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:07,720 Speaker 1: further away from the eyes, and then as it goes 403 00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:11,440 Speaker 1: toward the face of the crab it narrows. But yeah, 404 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:13,320 Speaker 1: I don't know. I think I can see the cross 405 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:13,960 Speaker 1: or the sword. 406 00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:17,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I'm more likely to see presence of 407 00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:21,080 Speaker 2: the divine by looking into the crab's eyes here. Yeah, 408 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:24,520 Speaker 2: this is we've already established. I think by this point 409 00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:28,840 Speaker 2: that crabs are clearly God's chosen and if one actually 410 00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:31,920 Speaker 2: ascends to Paradise, there will mostly be crabs there. 411 00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:35,640 Speaker 1: I think that's quite possible. But also, if you rotate 412 00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:38,000 Speaker 1: this around, do you kind of see an ant face 413 00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:40,679 Speaker 1: if you look at it upside down the eyes and 414 00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:41,520 Speaker 1: the mouth parts. 415 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:44,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I can see it. 416 00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:49,280 Speaker 1: So anyway, Hosey says that some Catholics regard this crab 417 00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:52,560 Speaker 1: as holy or lucky, and its shells are sometimes used 418 00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:55,399 Speaker 1: for religious reasons or possibly as good luck charms. I 419 00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:58,080 Speaker 1: was also reading a bit more about the species in 420 00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:02,679 Speaker 1: a twenty eleven unsigned article in Asian Scientist magazine called 421 00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:06,879 Speaker 1: Crucifix Crab caaribdis feriatas spotted in the Straits of Malacca. 422 00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:10,840 Speaker 1: So the thing that spurred this article is that in 423 00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:15,280 Speaker 1: twenty eleven, about a dozen crucifix crabs were caught by 424 00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:18,879 Speaker 1: a fisherman in the Malaysian state of Malacca, after having 425 00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:22,760 Speaker 1: not been found there since the nineteen sixties, and news 426 00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:25,600 Speaker 1: of this catch spread and the fishermen was, according to 427 00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:28,960 Speaker 1: this reporting, flooded by offers to buy the crabs. I 428 00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:32,280 Speaker 1: think it's implied that local Catholics wanted them, but I'm 429 00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:34,720 Speaker 1: not sure exactly who the buyers were. That's just kind 430 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:40,240 Speaker 1: of an inference. The article says, quote, only minimal quantities 431 00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:42,920 Speaker 1: of the crabs were caught. Many locals don't buy them 432 00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:46,080 Speaker 1: to eat, but preserve the shell as it is considered sacred, 433 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:50,040 Speaker 1: he told the Malaysian newspaper The Star. And this article 434 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:53,320 Speaker 1: goes on to explain the fact that crucifix crabs have 435 00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:58,120 Speaker 1: mostly disappeared from the area around Malacca in recent decades, 436 00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:02,160 Speaker 1: and it interviews They interview a local marine biologist who 437 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:05,880 Speaker 1: I think doesn't know for sure, but speculates that coastal 438 00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:09,640 Speaker 1: development has destroyed or degraded the mangrove swamps where these 439 00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:13,040 Speaker 1: crabs usually live, and so their numbers have been diminished 440 00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:16,480 Speaker 1: in the area. But the article also reports on how 441 00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:20,200 Speaker 1: some Catholics in Goa, India believe that the Crucifix crab 442 00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:24,359 Speaker 1: is a descendant of the crab from Francis Xavier's miracle story. 443 00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:28,439 Speaker 1: And then the article cites a scientist at the National 444 00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:34,440 Speaker 1: Institute of Oceanography in India named Anil Chatterjee who disregards 445 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:37,120 Speaker 1: this legend and says that the pigmentation on the shell 446 00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:39,760 Speaker 1: has a natural cause. It helps the crab survive in 447 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:44,080 Speaker 1: its environment. So I actually wanted to find I was 448 00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:48,719 Speaker 1: looking is there a scientific paper that gets into studying 449 00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:52,679 Speaker 1: the adaptive value of the cross shape on the Crucifix crab. 450 00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:56,480 Speaker 1: Has anybody looked into what it actually does? I did 451 00:25:56,520 --> 00:25:59,560 Speaker 1: not find any such research, so I don't think there 452 00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:03,840 Speaker 1: is a specific scientific paper that digs into the cross 453 00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:08,000 Speaker 1: markings on this crab in particular. But I was reading 454 00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:13,160 Speaker 1: in general about patterns of coloration on a crab's carapace 455 00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:18,360 Speaker 1: and general body coloration patterns. So I'm no expert on this, 456 00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:21,960 Speaker 1: but after my reading, my best guess is that the 457 00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:25,720 Speaker 1: cross shape on this crab is part of a general 458 00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:29,959 Speaker 1: design of spotting and modeling and striping that serves a 459 00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:35,399 Speaker 1: function known as disruptive coloration. So color patterns on a 460 00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:39,480 Speaker 1: crab's shell can help the crab hide from predators in 461 00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:43,880 Speaker 1: its environment. And there are a couple of main strategies 462 00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:47,280 Speaker 1: that researchers talk about here. One is called color matching 463 00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:50,760 Speaker 1: and the other is called disruption. Color matching is when 464 00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:53,520 Speaker 1: you try to make the top of your shell nearly 465 00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:56,840 Speaker 1: a solid color that matches the solid color of the background. 466 00:26:57,080 --> 00:27:00,199 Speaker 1: A big example would here be crabs that live on 467 00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:05,280 Speaker 1: mud flats. They often have a fairly solid, muddy color 468 00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:09,120 Speaker 1: on their carapas to camouflage themselves from predators looking down 469 00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:12,840 Speaker 1: from above. And then other crabs like the crucifix crab, 470 00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:18,840 Speaker 1: have these highly varied, sometimes high contrast patterns or patterns 471 00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:23,000 Speaker 1: that sort of interrupt the edges of the top of 472 00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:27,120 Speaker 1: the carapace, and these patterns are thought in many cases 473 00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:31,359 Speaker 1: to protect the crab by disrupting the image of the 474 00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:35,960 Speaker 1: crab's outline. So, in nature, a lot of predators and 475 00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:40,520 Speaker 1: hunters hunt by a visual recognition pattern called edge detection, 476 00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:43,320 Speaker 1: where what they're looking for is a certain kind of 477 00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:47,000 Speaker 1: outline that looks like food to them. And so these 478 00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:51,320 Speaker 1: spotted or striped color patterns kind of break up the 479 00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:55,959 Speaker 1: predator's ability to notice the outline of the animals, so 480 00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:59,320 Speaker 1: they don't see an outline that recognize as crab. Instead, 481 00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:02,320 Speaker 1: they see just a bunch of high contrasts, stripes and 482 00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:07,400 Speaker 1: spots that probably blend in pretty easily with a heterogeneous 483 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:12,119 Speaker 1: substrate below, like maybe rocky tidal pools or gravel pebbles, 484 00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:12,760 Speaker 1: things like that. 485 00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:16,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, as we've discussed on the show before, one of 486 00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:20,280 Speaker 2: the challenges with understanding how the camouflage of an organism 487 00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:23,680 Speaker 2: like this actually works is that very often the images 488 00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:27,960 Speaker 2: that you have of the organism are set against an 489 00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:32,399 Speaker 2: unnatural background, or at least they's they're out of context, 490 00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:35,880 Speaker 2: and so therefore it can be a little more challenging 491 00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:40,160 Speaker 2: to imagine how well they're blending in, because certainly to 492 00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:43,280 Speaker 2: our eye, when we get in the water with organisms 493 00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:48,240 Speaker 2: like this or in their environment, their camouflage often just 494 00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:51,480 Speaker 2: makes them completely invisible to us. Yeah, and of course 495 00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:54,680 Speaker 2: we're you know, we're looking for them in a slightly 496 00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:58,400 Speaker 2: different way and with different gear compared to their natural predators. 497 00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:02,120 Speaker 1: But you put them in a just a glass aquarium 498 00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:04,760 Speaker 1: tank or on top of a table in like a 499 00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:08,040 Speaker 1: research lab. Instead, the pattern really makes them stand out. 500 00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:09,160 Speaker 1: It has the opposite effect. 501 00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:11,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, And you can imagine then if you 502 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:15,440 Speaker 2: have this this shell with this cross like form on it, 503 00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:19,560 Speaker 2: and that is, say, on an altar somewhere or on 504 00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:23,800 Speaker 2: a mantle piece, you're even further removed from the natural 505 00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:26,960 Speaker 2: context in which that camouflage would be utilized, and therefore 506 00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:29,320 Speaker 2: you might be more inclined to lean into these ideas 507 00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:33,160 Speaker 2: that this is a divine marking, This is the Divine 508 00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:36,680 Speaker 2: communicating to me through the shell of this organ. 509 00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:39,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, a crab blessed by the Lord. But I just 510 00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:42,440 Speaker 1: want to reiterate what I said at the beginning that 511 00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:47,120 Speaker 1: was speculative about disruptive coloration being the reason, because again 512 00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:50,880 Speaker 1: I could not find an authoritative scientific source that gives 513 00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:52,920 Speaker 1: an answer on this. So really, I don't know. That's 514 00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:54,600 Speaker 1: just my best guess, but. 515 00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:58,280 Speaker 2: It would seem to work, or at least not work 516 00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:00,480 Speaker 2: from an evolutionary perspective. 517 00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:11,520 Speaker 3: Yeah. 518 00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:13,480 Speaker 1: But anyway, I've got one more thing I want to 519 00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:18,600 Speaker 1: get into about the legend of the Holy Crab. So 520 00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:22,080 Speaker 1: I was curious about development in the history of this 521 00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:24,320 Speaker 1: legend because I was reading about it and kept coming 522 00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:26,960 Speaker 1: across these different versions of it, I'm like, so, okay, 523 00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:31,040 Speaker 1: how did these versions emerge? And I went looking to 524 00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:33,840 Speaker 1: see if any authors had gone into that subject in depth, 525 00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:37,200 Speaker 1: and I found it discussed briefly in a famous book 526 00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:41,000 Speaker 1: from eighteen ninety six called A History of the Warfare 527 00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:45,440 Speaker 1: of Science with Theology in Christendom by the American historian 528 00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:50,480 Speaker 1: Andrew Dixon White. So White is an interesting and controversial 529 00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:53,720 Speaker 1: figure in the history of science and religion. He was 530 00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:56,920 Speaker 1: one of the founders of Cornell University, and in this 531 00:30:56,960 --> 00:31:01,440 Speaker 1: book he advances a very robust to defense of what 532 00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:05,000 Speaker 1: would come to be known as the conflict thesis. You've 533 00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:08,200 Speaker 1: probably heard versions of this idea before. In short, it 534 00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:11,480 Speaker 1: is the claim that there is an unavoidable conflict between 535 00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:15,840 Speaker 1: science and religion, and that across human history, scientific discovery 536 00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:21,600 Speaker 1: has always been stifled by religious dogmatism. The conflict thesis, 537 00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:26,600 Speaker 1: while clearly true in many particular instances, is not very 538 00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:30,800 Speaker 1: popular among philosophers and historians of science today as a 539 00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:36,760 Speaker 1: generalization about history. People who have looked into this subject 540 00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:40,280 Speaker 1: tend to see it as overly simplistic and usually based 541 00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:43,960 Speaker 1: on a cherry picked survey of history. So what I 542 00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:46,440 Speaker 1: think a lot of these scholars would say White does 543 00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:51,360 Speaker 1: is he goes through history and focuses on historical cases 544 00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:54,560 Speaker 1: of conflict between science and religion, especially where religion has 545 00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:59,680 Speaker 1: stifled or suppressed science, and then just ignores all the 546 00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:04,920 Speaker 1: cases of neutral interactions or complementarity. Though in partial defense 547 00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:07,080 Speaker 1: of the conflict thesis, I think it is wrong. But 548 00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:10,080 Speaker 1: I think also the opposite view that like science and 549 00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:13,960 Speaker 1: religion actually exist in perfect harmony, and you know, religion 550 00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:17,040 Speaker 1: points towards scientific discoveries. Sometimes you hear this from certain 551 00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:20,440 Speaker 1: religious apologists. I think that would be equally incorrect. 552 00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:23,440 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, and then this, of course, this is a 553 00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:27,120 Speaker 2: much larger topic, but you can certainly get into the 554 00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:30,080 Speaker 2: nooks and Cranny's obit and talk about like, at the 555 00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:34,360 Speaker 2: very basis, religion and science are attempting are often attempting 556 00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:36,400 Speaker 2: to do totally different things. Yeah. 557 00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:39,000 Speaker 1: Sometimes they're attempting to do the same thing, but sometimes 558 00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:43,000 Speaker 1: different things. Yeah. So it's just a complex relationship. And 559 00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:45,840 Speaker 1: that seems to be the historical consensus now among most 560 00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:49,719 Speaker 1: people who study this, that it's just a complex relationship 561 00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:54,600 Speaker 1: with different dynamics depending on time, place, and situation. However, 562 00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:58,720 Speaker 1: despite not going for White's overall thesis, his section on 563 00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:02,480 Speaker 1: the history of the miracle craft legend couched within a 564 00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:06,400 Speaker 1: general discussion of the miracles of Francis Xavior. I thought 565 00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:10,520 Speaker 1: was interesting. So the major theme of this section of 566 00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:14,440 Speaker 1: his book is the tendency for the legends of miracles 567 00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:18,880 Speaker 1: to evolve and to become more numerous and more miraculous 568 00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:21,560 Speaker 1: over time. And I think this part is pretty much 569 00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:25,360 Speaker 1: undeniably true, though it's certainly not unique to the miracles 570 00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:28,080 Speaker 1: of Francis Xavior and not unique to the miracles of 571 00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:31,720 Speaker 1: Catholic saints. I would say in pretty much all contexts, 572 00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:37,520 Speaker 1: amazing unverifiable stories tend to become more amazing as the 573 00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:38,960 Speaker 1: years and the tellings go by. 574 00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:42,320 Speaker 2: Yeah. I think that matches up even with recent episodes 575 00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:46,880 Speaker 2: that we've done about different saints and the supposed miracles 576 00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:48,000 Speaker 2: that they were involved in. 577 00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:52,000 Speaker 1: Yeah. But in the specific case of Francis Xavier, White 578 00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:57,600 Speaker 1: documents numerous specific miracle stories where the earliest accounts are 579 00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:00,880 Speaker 1: much more modest, Sometimes the earliest acount are not even 580 00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:04,240 Speaker 1: miraculous at all, and then later accounts of the same 581 00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:10,040 Speaker 1: events become more and more supernatural and more embellished. So 582 00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:14,440 Speaker 1: White sets this scene by talking about Xavier's canonization proceedings 583 00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:18,439 Speaker 1: in Rome in sixteen twenty two. I think that's the year. 584 00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:22,040 Speaker 1: This would have been roughly seventy years after Xavier's death 585 00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:26,280 Speaker 1: and leading up to this. Part of the canonization process 586 00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:30,120 Speaker 1: is that you have advocates for a person's sainthood, which 587 00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:32,200 Speaker 1: can only you can only get saintthood after you're dead. 588 00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:35,759 Speaker 1: So a dead person's sainthood advocates get up and make 589 00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:38,880 Speaker 1: a case for that, in part by giving testimony about 590 00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:42,759 Speaker 1: miracles the person is alleged to have performed. So at 591 00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:46,800 Speaker 1: Saint Francis Xavier's proceedings, there's a guy named Cardinal Monte 592 00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:50,400 Speaker 1: who gets up and gives a speech claiming that Francis 593 00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:53,200 Speaker 1: turned seawater into fresh water so that people could drink it. 594 00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:56,360 Speaker 1: That came up earlier. That was one of the legends 595 00:34:56,760 --> 00:35:00,719 Speaker 1: that Mochizuki said may have actually been taken from a 596 00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:02,040 Speaker 1: local Malaysian legend. 597 00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:04,080 Speaker 2: Okay, miraculous desalination. 598 00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:07,319 Speaker 1: I like, yeah, then you get some very standard ones. 599 00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:10,879 Speaker 1: Healing the sick, raising the dead. White talks about how 600 00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:15,040 Speaker 1: the number of instances of these miracles keep multiplying over time. 601 00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:19,200 Speaker 1: There's a claim that he was levitated while praying, and 602 00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:22,759 Speaker 1: then was transformed before a crowd of witnesses, and then 603 00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:26,560 Speaker 1: finally Quote and that to punish a blaspheming town, he 604 00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:29,920 Speaker 1: caused an earthquake and buried the offenders in cinders from 605 00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:32,240 Speaker 1: a volcano. Oh, is that a miracle? 606 00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:35,480 Speaker 2: I don't know. That doesn't feel like a miracle to me. 607 00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:38,960 Speaker 2: Then that I don't know if that should qualify one. 608 00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:43,680 Speaker 1: However, White says that the most curious of the miracle 609 00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:45,800 Speaker 1: stories here is the one we've been talking about, the 610 00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:49,600 Speaker 1: crucifix in the crab. And this story does show the 611 00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:53,080 Speaker 1: same pattern of development over time that illustrates with other 612 00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:57,920 Speaker 1: miracle stories about Xavier. Quote. In its first form, Xavier 613 00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:01,799 Speaker 1: lost the crucifix in the sea, and the earlier biographers 614 00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:05,200 Speaker 1: dwell on the sorrow which he showed in consequence. But 615 00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:08,680 Speaker 1: the later historians declared that the saint threw the crucifix 616 00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:11,480 Speaker 1: into the sea in order to steal a tempest, and 617 00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:14,800 Speaker 1: that after his safe getting to land, a crab brought 618 00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:18,440 Speaker 1: it to him on the shore. So I was looking 619 00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:20,840 Speaker 1: at this, and then I went digging in other sources 620 00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:24,080 Speaker 1: to try to piece together the evolution of this story. 621 00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:27,879 Speaker 1: I think it's complicated, so I can't get every detail right, 622 00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:31,239 Speaker 1: but I think there are basically three layers of development 623 00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:37,560 Speaker 1: to the legend. You've got first Xavier's contemporary account preserved 624 00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:42,000 Speaker 1: in his letters, which does not mention any supernatural events 625 00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:45,319 Speaker 1: at all. There's no stilling of a storm with a crucifix, 626 00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:49,120 Speaker 1: there's no miracle crab. This early account, directly from the 627 00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:51,879 Speaker 1: letter is just says there's a storm while he's at sea, 628 00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:56,359 Speaker 1: and Xavier clutches his crucifix and he prays fervently. And 629 00:36:56,400 --> 00:37:00,400 Speaker 1: then later you get testimony from the eyewitness that the 630 00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:04,279 Speaker 1: Portuguese soldier Fausto Rodriguez, and this is several years later, 631 00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:06,919 Speaker 1: and it adds new details. This is where we get 632 00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:10,680 Speaker 1: that Xavier accidentally loses the crucifix while trying to still 633 00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:14,720 Speaker 1: the storm, and the crucifix is returned by a crab. 634 00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:18,799 Speaker 1: And then later still you have biographers playing up the 635 00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:23,040 Speaker 1: weather control aspects and making that more stupendous. The later 636 00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:28,120 Speaker 1: biographers say that Xavier successfully calms the storm by intentionally 637 00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:31,720 Speaker 1: throwing the crucifix into the sea, and then same detail, 638 00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:34,480 Speaker 1: it is later returned by the crab. So the crab 639 00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:37,560 Speaker 1: element seems to come out in a middle stage of development, 640 00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:41,000 Speaker 1: you know, in this early eyewitness account by Fausto Rodriguez, 641 00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:44,200 Speaker 1: but it's not in the earliest account from the letters. 642 00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:47,880 Speaker 1: And then later on we get the really playing up 643 00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:52,000 Speaker 1: of the intentional effective weather control by way of crucifix bomb. 644 00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:55,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean then the mere fact that he doesn't 645 00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:59,200 Speaker 2: mention it himself. I mean a granted, you know, busy guy, 646 00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:01,120 Speaker 2: maybe he didn't have time to write everything down. But 647 00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:03,959 Speaker 2: if a crab ever brought you a crucifix, I feel 648 00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:06,759 Speaker 2: like that would be one of the most noteworthy things 649 00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:08,800 Speaker 2: that ever happened in your life. Like, if it happened 650 00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:11,680 Speaker 2: to me, I would never stop talking about. 651 00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:13,880 Speaker 1: It your diary. Yeah, going straight to the journals for 652 00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:15,520 Speaker 1: this one, telling everybody I know. 653 00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:18,600 Speaker 2: Like, even if you were a complete atheist and this happened, 654 00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:20,839 Speaker 2: you would still talk about it all the time. Yeah. 655 00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:23,840 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it wouldn't be you wouldn't think it was supernatural. 656 00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:27,000 Speaker 1: You'd just be like, that's really amazing. Yeah, yeah, what. 657 00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:28,280 Speaker 2: Were the chances, et cetera. 658 00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:32,680 Speaker 1: But anyway, so this story got me thinking about why 659 00:38:32,719 --> 00:38:36,680 Speaker 1: there is such a strong tendency for hagiographic details, you know, 660 00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:41,080 Speaker 1: details about the miracles of saints to develop like this. 661 00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:44,560 Speaker 1: And I was wondering if it's sort of two different 662 00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:50,600 Speaker 1: tendencies coming together. One is an omnipresent natural tendency to 663 00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:54,040 Speaker 1: make amazing stories more and more amazing over time when 664 00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:56,440 Speaker 1: you retell them. You know, would we started with that 665 00:38:56,520 --> 00:38:58,719 Speaker 1: like I went fishing. The fish gets bigger, bigger every 666 00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:01,560 Speaker 1: time you tell the story. But then I wonder whether 667 00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:05,480 Speaker 1: the other half of this is that there's a normal 668 00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:11,040 Speaker 1: limiting principle on this tendency to keep exaggerating stories over time, 669 00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:15,120 Speaker 1: and that limiting principle is a type of conscience, a 670 00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:19,200 Speaker 1: kind of sense of honesty or moral obligation to be accurate. 671 00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:22,359 Speaker 1: You feel bad, you know, you might feel bad if 672 00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:25,319 Speaker 1: you realize you're exaggerating at all. You might do so, 673 00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:28,440 Speaker 1: you might exaggerate unconsciously, but you might feel bad if 674 00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:30,080 Speaker 1: you're doing it at all, Or you might feel bad 675 00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:33,440 Speaker 1: if you exaggerate too much. And I wonder if this 676 00:39:33,719 --> 00:39:38,200 Speaker 1: moral limiting principle is largely removed when we feel like 677 00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:42,680 Speaker 1: we're doing something morally good by telling an amazing story. 678 00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:47,160 Speaker 1: So if you're, say a Christian recounting the good deeds 679 00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:51,520 Speaker 1: or miracles of a saint, these stories provide evidence of 680 00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:54,000 Speaker 1: the power of God from your point of view, or 681 00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:57,319 Speaker 1: they help spread the Gospel and convert the unconverted. So 682 00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:01,080 Speaker 1: from your point of view, the amazing of the miracle 683 00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:05,360 Speaker 1: story contributes directly to a good cause. So I wonder 684 00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:08,600 Speaker 1: if the sense of goodness that you feel is accomplished 685 00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:13,000 Speaker 1: by allowing the story to grow in amazingness can kind 686 00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:16,600 Speaker 1: of overwhelm the moral limits we normally feel on exaggeration. 687 00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:19,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, I could see that being part of it. Certainly, 688 00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:23,400 Speaker 2: you can also tie in various other things we've discussed before, 689 00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:27,960 Speaker 2: like how memory retrieval can lead to the change of 690 00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:31,640 Speaker 2: the memory and alteration of the memory. And then like 691 00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:35,160 Speaker 2: even just the telling of the thing. You know, certainly 692 00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:37,879 Speaker 2: you can embellish it each time on purpose, but also 693 00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:41,360 Speaker 2: as we tell and retell stories, those stories do change, 694 00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:43,800 Speaker 2: and maybe they do become a little we punch it 695 00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:44,840 Speaker 2: up a little bit as we go. 696 00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:48,920 Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, I think it's undeniable that there are some 697 00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:54,560 Speaker 1: types and degrees of embellishment and exaggeration that occur unconsciously. 698 00:40:55,120 --> 00:40:57,919 Speaker 1: But I do wonder about some big leaps, like when 699 00:40:58,719 --> 00:41:02,680 Speaker 1: new concrete details of a story emerge, like when an 700 00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:05,800 Speaker 1: earlier version of the story doesn't have a crab bringing 701 00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:08,800 Speaker 1: across out of the ocean, and a later version does. 702 00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:12,520 Speaker 1: At that point, I start to wonder where does that 703 00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:15,759 Speaker 1: detail come from, because that it seems hard for me 704 00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:20,759 Speaker 1: to imagine that that is just an unintentional exaggeration or embellishment, 705 00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:23,600 Speaker 1: because the concrete image of the crab has to come 706 00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:27,120 Speaker 1: from somewhere. I wonder if it could be unintentional if 707 00:41:27,239 --> 00:41:31,040 Speaker 1: years later you are mixing up different stories in your head, 708 00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:34,719 Speaker 1: maybe something like that, Like this comes back to the 709 00:41:34,760 --> 00:41:38,000 Speaker 1: idea of the uh you know, the legend of the 710 00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:42,799 Speaker 1: Buddhist the Buddhist figure who gets the the icon back 711 00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:46,279 Speaker 1: from the ocean from an octopus. Like maybe having heard 712 00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:49,560 Speaker 1: a version of that story and then having had this experience, 713 00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:52,680 Speaker 1: you kind of accidentally combine them in your brain. Yeah. 714 00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:56,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, Like I can imagine a scenario where Xavior finds 715 00:41:56,960 --> 00:41:59,560 Speaker 2: the cross that he lost washed up on the shore, 716 00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:03,800 Speaker 2: which in of itself would be miraculous luck, but then 717 00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:07,239 Speaker 2: recollection of this gets combined with a local folk tale 718 00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:12,800 Speaker 2: about another sea creature, you know, restoring ownership of a 719 00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:15,799 Speaker 2: particular holy icon. Yeah, you can see how these things 720 00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:18,880 Speaker 2: could come together and merge. I feel like the crab 721 00:42:19,120 --> 00:42:23,440 Speaker 2: is is a slightly more believable choice though, right, I mean, 722 00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:27,240 Speaker 2: because we do see crabs coming out of the ocean 723 00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:30,560 Speaker 2: with more regularity as compared to the octopus. 724 00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:35,120 Speaker 1: That okay, So I have different thoughts, and this set 725 00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:37,120 Speaker 1: of thoughts may bring us back to a topic I 726 00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:40,719 Speaker 1: mentioned earlier. I feel like, just based on what I 727 00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:44,680 Speaker 1: know about crabs versus octopuses, you'd be more likely to 728 00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:49,799 Speaker 1: have an octopus carrying around a strange human artifact because 729 00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:52,440 Speaker 1: octopuses are very curious, they like to play. 730 00:42:53,160 --> 00:42:56,560 Speaker 2: You know, some do do some form of possible tool 731 00:42:56,640 --> 00:42:58,359 Speaker 2: use as well. I don't know that they would be 732 00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:03,520 Speaker 2: using a silvery crucifix for anything, but it's not impossible. 733 00:43:03,560 --> 00:43:04,560 Speaker 2: They're very tactile. 734 00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:06,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, whether or not the octopus is using it for 735 00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:09,840 Speaker 1: any that would be amazing. If they saw the octopus 736 00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:14,480 Speaker 1: crying open clamshells with the crucifix, I mean, that's wonderful. 737 00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:18,080 Speaker 1: But no, like if it just brought up and I 738 00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:20,120 Speaker 1: guess in the octopus version of the story, it wasn't 739 00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:23,360 Speaker 1: a crucifix. It was it was an image of this god, 740 00:43:24,200 --> 00:43:28,480 Speaker 1: this the Buddhist figure. But yeah, you know, a human 741 00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:32,680 Speaker 1: made artifact is unusual in the octopus's environment, and the 742 00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:34,680 Speaker 1: curiosity might just lead it to kind of want to 743 00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:36,520 Speaker 1: play with it and manipulate it. We see that in 744 00:43:36,719 --> 00:43:40,440 Speaker 1: octopuses in captivity certainly, So yeah, I wonder about that. 745 00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:42,720 Speaker 1: But then again, we do sometimes see crabs just grip 746 00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:44,799 Speaker 1: something in the claw and carry it around. We've all 747 00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:48,360 Speaker 1: seen the picture of the crab holding a knife. 748 00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:49,120 Speaker 2: That's true. 749 00:43:50,320 --> 00:43:53,520 Speaker 1: But maybe this should cause us to come back to 750 00:43:53,719 --> 00:43:56,640 Speaker 1: crabs carrying objects in a subsequent part of the series 751 00:43:56,680 --> 00:43:58,520 Speaker 1: to get to the bottom of what's going on there. 752 00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:11,799 Speaker 2: All right, sounds good? All right? Before we close up 753 00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:13,480 Speaker 2: the episode, I think I'm going to move on to 754 00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:17,080 Speaker 2: a single topic here we're going to deal with. This 755 00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:20,440 Speaker 2: is going to be a much shorter exploration, but I 756 00:44:20,480 --> 00:44:23,480 Speaker 2: want to talk briefly about something that is sometimes referred 757 00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:27,040 Speaker 2: to as crab theory. I don't know about you, Joe, 758 00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:29,640 Speaker 2: This is some I somehow missed out on this concept 759 00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:33,480 Speaker 2: entirely until I was looking around for crab related topics 760 00:44:33,719 --> 00:44:37,120 Speaker 2: to discuss in these episodes. So we might have to 761 00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:40,200 Speaker 2: come back to this one in greater detail much later on, 762 00:44:40,239 --> 00:44:44,000 Speaker 2: because the psychology of it gets a bit complicated. The 763 00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:46,319 Speaker 2: cultural aspects of it getting a bit complicated, and it 764 00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:49,120 Speaker 2: spreads out in a number of directions. I'm also a 765 00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:52,480 Speaker 2: little uncertain about the origin of the idea of crab theory. 766 00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:55,520 Speaker 2: I've seen it suggested that the term has origins in 767 00:44:55,560 --> 00:45:01,160 Speaker 2: the Philippines. I've seen a Filipino feminist author, Notchka Rosca 768 00:45:01,239 --> 00:45:04,319 Speaker 2: singled out as a possible originator. But I've also seen 769 00:45:04,360 --> 00:45:07,640 Speaker 2: it sort of claimed culturally in other directions. Like I 770 00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:11,080 Speaker 2: saw I believe it's a BBC article that briefly mentioned 771 00:45:11,080 --> 00:45:15,480 Speaker 2: it as being a Scottish thing, you know, whether it originated. 772 00:45:15,520 --> 00:45:17,839 Speaker 2: They didn't make the claim that the Scottish originated it, 773 00:45:17,840 --> 00:45:20,200 Speaker 2: but it was like, like, hey, Scott's talk about this 774 00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:23,000 Speaker 2: from time to time. I believe the term was also 775 00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:26,520 Speaker 2: popularized by a twenty ten episode of The Boondocks, the 776 00:45:26,560 --> 00:45:29,520 Speaker 2: animated series, but I couldn't find much in the way 777 00:45:29,560 --> 00:45:32,160 Speaker 2: of clarity on any of this. But assuming an origin 778 00:45:32,200 --> 00:45:35,240 Speaker 2: in the Philippines, it would seem that the metaphor travels 779 00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:38,840 Speaker 2: easily because first of all, the behavior and attitudes it 780 00:45:38,840 --> 00:45:42,640 Speaker 2: attempts to describe are universal, and number two, you just 781 00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:45,600 Speaker 2: need some understanding of crabs for it to make sense. 782 00:45:45,719 --> 00:45:50,680 Speaker 2: And again, crabs must be watched. We crabs are just fascinating. 783 00:45:50,719 --> 00:45:52,799 Speaker 2: We can't help but watch what they're doing. You feel 784 00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:56,360 Speaker 2: like you've got to decode the scuttling. Yeah, So what 785 00:45:56,520 --> 00:46:00,880 Speaker 2: is this crab theory? Basically it boils down to this. 786 00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:03,960 Speaker 2: If you have a bucket of crabs, any crab that 787 00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:06,760 Speaker 2: attempts to climb too high and escape from that bucket 788 00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:09,799 Speaker 2: will be pulled down by the other crabs. So the 789 00:46:09,880 --> 00:46:12,160 Speaker 2: human situation here can be You can roll it out 790 00:46:12,200 --> 00:46:14,040 Speaker 2: in a few different ways. So, first of all, there's 791 00:46:14,040 --> 00:46:17,640 Speaker 2: the broad idea that humans are engaging in various forms 792 00:46:17,680 --> 00:46:24,520 Speaker 2: of jealousy, gatekeeping, social boundary maintenance, and competition of different varieties, 793 00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:26,920 Speaker 2: and therefore may act in a way like this, this 794 00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:29,480 Speaker 2: kind of this kind of attitude. Well, if I can't win, 795 00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:33,680 Speaker 2: nobody can win. If I can't climb, no one will climb. 796 00:46:33,719 --> 00:46:37,279 Speaker 2: If I can't escape, no one will escape. So that 797 00:46:37,400 --> 00:46:39,800 Speaker 2: sort of thing. But then you also have this bucket 798 00:46:39,840 --> 00:46:43,880 Speaker 2: element to it. The bucket is an imposed environment. So 799 00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:46,440 Speaker 2: the crabs were put in this bucket, and so the 800 00:46:46,480 --> 00:46:51,640 Speaker 2: bucket can represent all manner of groups, communities, industries, cultures, 801 00:46:51,960 --> 00:46:56,760 Speaker 2: social constructs, and especially any of these influenced by colonialism. 802 00:46:57,040 --> 00:47:00,880 Speaker 1: So especially this would apply in an artificialvironment that was 803 00:47:00,960 --> 00:47:03,839 Speaker 1: not made for people to thrive in, but which into 804 00:47:03,840 --> 00:47:05,000 Speaker 1: which they've been put. 805 00:47:05,560 --> 00:47:09,440 Speaker 2: Right, Like, you could take the crab theory scenario and 806 00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:11,719 Speaker 2: you could, you could you could roll it out for 807 00:47:11,760 --> 00:47:15,399 Speaker 2: a workplace and say like, hey, our workplace has this 808 00:47:15,560 --> 00:47:19,160 Speaker 2: like toxic environment. It is like a crab bucket where 809 00:47:19,239 --> 00:47:21,799 Speaker 2: everybody that is in this crab bucket, we just won't 810 00:47:21,840 --> 00:47:25,319 Speaker 2: let anybody rise up. We keep pulling them down. And 811 00:47:25,680 --> 00:47:28,960 Speaker 2: it says it says as much about the environment that 812 00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:32,719 Speaker 2: we've been placed in as as it does about human. 813 00:47:32,560 --> 00:47:36,280 Speaker 1: Nature, right, because crabs don't naturally live in a bucket, 814 00:47:36,360 --> 00:47:39,920 Speaker 1: and so the bucket environment maybe bringing out behaviors that 815 00:47:40,920 --> 00:47:43,640 Speaker 1: are shown in the bucket, but wouldn't necessarily be shown 816 00:47:43,840 --> 00:47:47,120 Speaker 1: if the crabs were just crawling around in their natural environment. 817 00:47:46,960 --> 00:47:51,000 Speaker 2: Right right. So so yeah, this seems to have this metaphorse, 818 00:47:51,040 --> 00:47:53,839 Speaker 2: seems to have traveled rather well and again has been 819 00:47:53,920 --> 00:47:56,200 Speaker 2: kind of like picked up in different areas by different people. 820 00:47:56,800 --> 00:47:59,920 Speaker 2: And again it ties in crabs, which everyone likes to watch. 821 00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:04,160 Speaker 2: But it does raise the question our crabs really like this? 822 00:48:04,960 --> 00:48:08,680 Speaker 2: And I think broadly you can say yes and no. 823 00:48:08,840 --> 00:48:13,319 Speaker 2: So many crabs absolutely are solitary and competitive competitive. You know, 824 00:48:13,960 --> 00:48:17,359 Speaker 2: individual humans can exhibit these qualities as well, but as 825 00:48:17,400 --> 00:48:20,760 Speaker 2: a whole we are a highly social species and crabs 826 00:48:20,880 --> 00:48:25,440 Speaker 2: are not. Still, some crabs species engage in various forms 827 00:48:25,480 --> 00:48:29,600 Speaker 2: of at least limited cooperation, and we've talked about at 828 00:48:29,680 --> 00:48:31,399 Speaker 2: least one of these before in the show, and that's 829 00:48:31,480 --> 00:48:37,280 Speaker 2: the hermit crab vacancy chains. Hardly altruistic, but the process 830 00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:41,080 Speaker 2: benefits other crabs. So, just to remind everyone, sometimes called 831 00:48:41,080 --> 00:48:44,799 Speaker 2: the congo line cooperation, where you have hermit crabs who 832 00:48:44,840 --> 00:48:48,640 Speaker 2: have these shells that are not created, not grown by 833 00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:53,000 Speaker 2: their own bodies. These are pilfered from various mollusks and 834 00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:56,440 Speaker 2: they eventually outgrow them. They have to molt and then 835 00:48:56,480 --> 00:48:59,520 Speaker 2: they have to get a new shell. But all the 836 00:48:59,560 --> 00:49:02,200 Speaker 2: other crab are doing this at the same time, and 837 00:49:02,280 --> 00:49:05,080 Speaker 2: so it creates these situations where a crab leaves one 838 00:49:05,080 --> 00:49:07,720 Speaker 2: shell and then that creates a vacancy for another crab 839 00:49:07,840 --> 00:49:11,879 Speaker 2: to level up. And there's kind of a musical chair 840 00:49:11,920 --> 00:49:15,200 Speaker 2: as that takes place, and you can you can certainly 841 00:49:15,360 --> 00:49:20,920 Speaker 2: view this as a form of social cooperation, but you know, 842 00:49:20,960 --> 00:49:22,560 Speaker 2: you have to strip away a lot of the human 843 00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:25,919 Speaker 2: definitions of cooperation to get there. 844 00:49:26,960 --> 00:49:29,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think some people claim that this is similar 845 00:49:29,800 --> 00:49:34,000 Speaker 1: to what they think are the beneficial aspects of market economies, 846 00:49:34,080 --> 00:49:36,840 Speaker 1: right where you can have like a you know, a 847 00:49:36,960 --> 00:49:41,480 Speaker 1: vacancy created in some sense, either like housing vacancy or 848 00:49:41,600 --> 00:49:43,880 Speaker 1: job vacancy or things like that. When a sort of 849 00:49:43,960 --> 00:49:48,319 Speaker 1: spot opens up within an economic zone, somebody can move 850 00:49:48,320 --> 00:49:51,600 Speaker 1: into that spot, and they create a vacancy when they 851 00:49:51,719 --> 00:49:53,759 Speaker 1: leave their spot, so somebody else can move into that. 852 00:49:54,680 --> 00:49:57,840 Speaker 1: And so even though the individual actors are just acting 853 00:49:57,880 --> 00:50:00,560 Speaker 1: in their own best interest, it sort of creates a 854 00:50:00,600 --> 00:50:03,000 Speaker 1: broad benefit for many different parties. 855 00:50:02,880 --> 00:50:06,400 Speaker 2: Right right now. In addition to this example, studies have 856 00:50:06,440 --> 00:50:09,960 Speaker 2: also found that male fiddler crabs will appear to help 857 00:50:10,040 --> 00:50:14,920 Speaker 2: neighboring crabs defend against their territory against intruders, so not 858 00:50:15,239 --> 00:50:17,920 Speaker 2: out of the goodness of their tiny crab hearts, but 859 00:50:18,239 --> 00:50:21,520 Speaker 2: because it suits their interests as well. So it's kind 860 00:50:21,520 --> 00:50:26,000 Speaker 2: of selective coalitions that are formed among these crabs. So, 861 00:50:26,480 --> 00:50:28,839 Speaker 2: I don't know, it's interesting to think about that. There's 862 00:50:28,840 --> 00:50:33,200 Speaker 2: certainly the case there's a very pessimistic view that you 863 00:50:33,239 --> 00:50:35,960 Speaker 2: can take, and you can say, well, anytime humans engage 864 00:50:36,000 --> 00:50:39,239 Speaker 2: in cooperation, they're still doing it for selfish interest and 865 00:50:39,640 --> 00:50:44,920 Speaker 2: humans are essentially crabs. You can make that argument, but 866 00:50:45,080 --> 00:50:46,840 Speaker 2: I think at at the end of the day, you 867 00:50:46,920 --> 00:50:50,440 Speaker 2: still have to acknowledge that humans are a highly social creature. 868 00:50:50,719 --> 00:50:54,920 Speaker 2: Crabs are not. But some forms of cooperation do emerge 869 00:50:55,760 --> 00:50:56,600 Speaker 2: among crabs. 870 00:50:57,480 --> 00:50:59,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, in the case of humans, I would not argue 871 00:50:59,840 --> 00:51:02,880 Speaker 1: that everything is ultimately selfish, but it's also impossible to 872 00:51:02,920 --> 00:51:05,479 Speaker 1: disprove that is, how can you ever proved that there's 873 00:51:05,520 --> 00:51:08,759 Speaker 1: not secretly an underlying selfish motivation for some rout you know, 874 00:51:09,920 --> 00:51:12,960 Speaker 1: So that's just kind of a yeah, a matter of interpretation, 875 00:51:13,080 --> 00:51:16,319 Speaker 1: I think. Yeah, But similarly with crabs, Yeah, you can 876 00:51:16,360 --> 00:51:20,720 Speaker 1: see these situations in which some type of mutual benefit 877 00:51:21,120 --> 00:51:24,560 Speaker 1: occurs from cooperation. So in the crab world, it is 878 00:51:24,600 --> 00:51:30,160 Speaker 1: in fact not always just just universal punishing chaos and 879 00:51:30,760 --> 00:51:35,360 Speaker 1: destruction of your neighbors. There is some mutual benefit that 880 00:51:35,400 --> 00:51:36,719 Speaker 1: occurs exactly. 881 00:51:36,840 --> 00:51:39,919 Speaker 2: Yeah, but it does make you wonder if there were 882 00:51:40,000 --> 00:51:44,760 Speaker 2: to be a situation where a crab rescued a silver 883 00:51:44,840 --> 00:51:48,799 Speaker 2: crucifix from the bottom of the ocean and returned it 884 00:51:48,840 --> 00:51:52,440 Speaker 2: to its human owner on a on a far flung shore. 885 00:51:53,440 --> 00:51:55,680 Speaker 2: I mean that would what is in't it for the crab? 886 00:51:55,719 --> 00:51:58,520 Speaker 2: There nothing in the story about the crab being rewarded with, 887 00:51:59,360 --> 00:52:01,920 Speaker 2: you know, a fresh piece of rotting fish or anything 888 00:52:02,600 --> 00:52:05,240 Speaker 2: of that nature. In this story, I guess the crab 889 00:52:05,320 --> 00:52:07,640 Speaker 2: just did it out of the goodness of its heart 890 00:52:07,960 --> 00:52:12,279 Speaker 2: and out of its devotion to the divine. So I'm 891 00:52:12,280 --> 00:52:14,680 Speaker 2: not sure how we would beyond that. I'm not sure 892 00:52:14,719 --> 00:52:16,480 Speaker 2: how we would really compare these two examples. 893 00:52:16,800 --> 00:52:20,160 Speaker 1: The original story, I believe, does not say what kind 894 00:52:20,200 --> 00:52:22,960 Speaker 1: of crab it is, so the later association with the 895 00:52:22,960 --> 00:52:29,200 Speaker 1: crucifix crab species the charybdis feriatis, is a subsequent connection 896 00:52:29,320 --> 00:52:34,040 Speaker 1: people have made. But if it were the crucifix crab 897 00:52:34,080 --> 00:52:36,640 Speaker 1: that returned to the crucifix, people do say that the 898 00:52:36,640 --> 00:52:42,120 Speaker 1: crucifix crab is an especially aggressive crab species, So maybe 899 00:52:42,280 --> 00:52:45,320 Speaker 1: the returning of the crucifix is some kind of veiled threat. 900 00:52:45,719 --> 00:52:48,200 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, or you know, in some of these tellings 901 00:52:48,880 --> 00:52:53,040 Speaker 2: it did cause Xavier and his friend to lay upon 902 00:52:53,080 --> 00:52:55,759 Speaker 2: the beach. Maybe that's when the crabs swarm and they're like, 903 00:52:55,840 --> 00:52:56,439 Speaker 2: let's get them. 904 00:52:56,719 --> 00:52:59,240 Speaker 1: It works. Oh that's right, Yes, you do a miracle, 905 00:52:59,320 --> 00:53:02,080 Speaker 1: so you get them praying, and that's your opportunity to strike. 906 00:53:02,239 --> 00:53:03,759 Speaker 2: The crabs are like you see a jess to it. 907 00:53:03,840 --> 00:53:05,719 Speaker 2: You give them a crucifix, they'll lay down and then 908 00:53:05,760 --> 00:53:07,000 Speaker 2: you can have whatever you want. 909 00:53:07,880 --> 00:53:09,799 Speaker 1: So does that do it for part one of the 910 00:53:09,800 --> 00:53:10,400 Speaker 1: Crab Bag? 911 00:53:10,680 --> 00:53:13,720 Speaker 2: I think so. I think we've we've hit our time 912 00:53:13,760 --> 00:53:17,320 Speaker 2: for today. But we have some other lovely crab related 913 00:53:17,840 --> 00:53:21,239 Speaker 2: nuggets to pull out for tomorrow, some other specimens, some 914 00:53:21,360 --> 00:53:25,000 Speaker 2: other scientific and cultural examples. Well, not for tomorrow, for 915 00:53:25,360 --> 00:53:26,240 Speaker 2: the day after tomorrow. 916 00:53:26,239 --> 00:53:26,600 Speaker 3: You get it. 917 00:53:26,680 --> 00:53:29,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, So join us next time as we return to 918 00:53:30,040 --> 00:53:34,040 Speaker 2: the Crab grab Bag. Just a reminder to everyone out 919 00:53:34,080 --> 00:53:36,440 Speaker 2: there again, especially if you're new to the show. Stuff 920 00:53:36,440 --> 00:53:38,880 Speaker 2: to Blow Your Mind is primarily a science and culture 921 00:53:38,920 --> 00:53:42,719 Speaker 2: podcast with core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays, but on 922 00:53:42,760 --> 00:53:45,640 Speaker 2: Wednesdays we do a short form episode, and on Fridays 923 00:53:45,719 --> 00:53:48,040 Speaker 2: rather we do Weird House Cinema. That's our time to 924 00:53:48,080 --> 00:53:50,160 Speaker 2: set aside most serious concerns and just talk about a 925 00:53:50,160 --> 00:53:50,760 Speaker 2: weird film. 926 00:53:51,239 --> 00:53:55,120 Speaker 1: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway. 927 00:53:55,400 --> 00:53:56,920 Speaker 1: If you would like to get in touch with us 928 00:53:56,960 --> 00:53:59,440 Speaker 1: with feedback on this episode or any other to suggest 929 00:53:59,480 --> 00:54:01,480 Speaker 1: a topic for the future, or just to say hello. 930 00:54:01,640 --> 00:54:04,120 Speaker 1: You can email us at contact at stuff to Blow 931 00:54:04,120 --> 00:54:13,560 Speaker 1: your Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow Your Mind is 932 00:54:13,640 --> 00:54:17,279 Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts my heart Radio, visit 933 00:54:17,320 --> 00:54:20,279 Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to 934 00:54:20,360 --> 00:54:35,400 Speaker 1: your favorite shows.