WEBVTT - Don Was 0:00:08.200 --> 0:00:15.120 Pushkin. Don Was remembers the exact moment music changed him. 0:00:15.160 --> 0:00:17.759 He was fourteen running errands with his mom when Joe 0:00:17.800 --> 0:00:21.480 Henderson's Mode for Joe came on the car radio. Joe's 0:00:21.480 --> 0:00:24.279 Tenor Sacks taught Don an important lesson you'll hear about 0:00:24.400 --> 0:00:27.920 later in this episode. It also cemented his love of music, 0:00:28.400 --> 0:00:31.920 which was everywhere in Detroit in the nineteen sixties, from 0:00:31.920 --> 0:00:35.479 Motown to the Stooges to George Clinton in Parliament Funkadelic. 0:00:36.280 --> 0:00:39.000 It's no surprise the city as musically diverse as Detroit 0:00:39.280 --> 0:00:43.120 turned out someone like Don Was, who's worked across generations 0:00:43.159 --> 0:00:46.640 and genres for decades now. He led the avant garde 0:00:46.720 --> 0:00:50.040 new wavy band Was Not Was produced career defining albums 0:00:50.040 --> 0:00:52.559 for the B fifty twos and Bonnie Rate, including her 0:00:52.600 --> 0:00:55.640 biggest hit, Something to Talk About. He's also worked with 0:00:55.680 --> 0:00:58.440 Bob Dylan and as a Rolling Stones go to producer. 0:00:58.920 --> 0:01:01.040 For the last decade, he's worked as a president of 0:01:01.080 --> 0:01:04.560 Blue Note Records, reviving the same legendary jazz label that 0:01:04.560 --> 0:01:07.800 issued Mode for Joe way back in nineteen sixty six. 0:01:08.319 --> 0:01:10.199 Rick Rubin caught up with Don Was to talk about 0:01:10.240 --> 0:01:13.199 his wide ranging career and why his latest gig, playing 0:01:13.200 --> 0:01:15.880 Base for the Grateful Dead's Bob Were is a single 0:01:15.920 --> 0:01:22.759 best thing he's ever done. This is broken record liner 0:01:22.840 --> 0:01:30.679 notes for the digital Age. I'm justin Richmond. Here's Rick 0:01:30.760 --> 0:01:33.880 Rubin and Don was who. We start with Detroit. You're 0:01:33.920 --> 0:01:37.319 from Detroit, Yeah, sure, yeah. I was born in Detroit 0:01:37.360 --> 0:01:40.120 in nineteen fifty two, which meant I was a teenager 0:01:40.120 --> 0:01:43.440 there in the nineteen sixties, which was a really great 0:01:43.520 --> 0:01:47.520 time to be in Detroit. You know, the Stooges played 0:01:47.520 --> 0:01:51.320 at my high school. Wow, Bob Seger played at my 0:01:51.400 --> 0:01:56.560 high school, George Clinton, and they were just called the 0:01:56.560 --> 0:01:58.920 Parliaments then, right, and there was a five piece vocal 0:01:59.000 --> 0:02:01.680 group and they came to lip sync. God just want 0:02:01.720 --> 0:02:05.960 to testify at at my junior high school at Asaka. 0:02:06.080 --> 0:02:09.359 So there was incredible music and there was an incredible 0:02:10.080 --> 0:02:13.200 atmosphere in the city. You know. After World War Two, 0:02:13.400 --> 0:02:15.520 people from all over the world started heading up there 0:02:15.560 --> 0:02:18.560 to get jobs and auto factories, and they brought their 0:02:18.560 --> 0:02:21.080 cultures with them and they all kind It was like 0:02:21.200 --> 0:02:25.280 going to you know, a great bazaar. Every day. You 0:02:25.280 --> 0:02:27.360 could hear all kinds of music and meet all kinds 0:02:27.360 --> 0:02:30.480 of people beautiful. There was something about coming from Detroit 0:02:30.520 --> 0:02:34.000 back then that there was no point in putting on 0:02:34.320 --> 0:02:37.080 any errors. You know, it's a very honest city because 0:02:37.120 --> 0:02:41.079 everyone's state was tied to the success of the auto business. 0:02:41.840 --> 0:02:45.480 My parents were both teachers, and if auto sales were down, 0:02:46.000 --> 0:02:48.320 the families and move away to find other jobs, and 0:02:48.360 --> 0:02:50.679 they'd lay off teachers, and they'd lay off barbers, and 0:02:50.720 --> 0:02:54.400 they'd lay off waitresses, and so there was really no 0:02:54.520 --> 0:02:58.000 point in like Lisa and Mercedes, to impress people because 0:02:58.000 --> 0:03:00.600 everyone knew we were all in the same boat. And 0:03:01.760 --> 0:03:04.880 that was that was something very special about Detroit in 0:03:04.919 --> 0:03:07.120 that era. And I think the music reflects that if 0:03:07.120 --> 0:03:10.040 you listen to the people who came out of there. 0:03:10.440 --> 0:03:15.000 To me, the godfather of Detroit music is John Lee Hooker, 0:03:15.919 --> 0:03:24.440 and that's just brutally honest, incredibly raw stuff without affectation. Incredible, lucky, 0:03:24.560 --> 0:03:28.280 lucky that you found yourself there. It's amazing how the universe, 0:03:28.360 --> 0:03:32.120 the universe plays a role in all of this. It's incredible. 0:03:32.400 --> 0:03:36.160 What was the world in Detroit? Like, paint a picture 0:03:36.280 --> 0:03:39.040 of your childhood in Detroit. Well, I see it in 0:03:39.120 --> 0:03:41.800 black and white, probably because we were watching black and 0:03:41.800 --> 0:03:46.400 white TV, but I don't see it bright and colorful. 0:03:47.520 --> 0:03:51.880 There was a grit to the place, but a warmth. Man. 0:03:51.920 --> 0:03:57.200 The people are really nice, man. Really, it's Midwestern and 0:03:57.240 --> 0:04:02.080 it's got that Cone Brothers kind of elevolence, but its 0:04:02.200 --> 0:04:06.800 urban and and sophisticated, so it's it's it's not a 0:04:06.840 --> 0:04:11.840 farm town. There's a pretty hiptown. And the culture was 0:04:11.880 --> 0:04:15.160 great to music was unbelievable, man, not just in rock 0:04:15.200 --> 0:04:17.880 and roll, you know, certainly when it was about the 0:04:17.920 --> 0:04:20.359 R and B that came out of there, but like 0:04:20.520 --> 0:04:24.440 just on the Blue Note roster, for example, there's a 0:04:24.520 --> 0:04:28.760 really an ordinate number of musicians from Detroit who ended 0:04:28.839 --> 0:04:32.560 up recording for Blue Note. It's an incredible jazz scene. 0:04:33.040 --> 0:04:35.640 I feel like there are other industrial places that don't 0:04:35.640 --> 0:04:38.040 have that legacy. Is what do you think is specific 0:04:38.480 --> 0:04:42.600 about what was going on in Detroit particularly that created this. 0:04:43.640 --> 0:04:47.960 I think it's the combination of no bullshit and having 0:04:48.520 --> 0:04:51.400 an incredible number of jobs in one period of time 0:04:51.480 --> 0:04:53.600 that that drew people from all over the world. But 0:04:53.680 --> 0:04:56.680 it's just it's just some weird phenomenon. It was a 0:04:56.720 --> 0:04:59.880 booming scene, man. How long did you stay in Detroit? 0:05:00.440 --> 0:05:02.360 A long time? Man? I was there till I was 0:05:02.400 --> 0:05:06.080 in my thirties. Wow. Yes, I left in the nineteen 0:05:06.200 --> 0:05:09.719 eighty six. So I started making records there. I loved. 0:05:10.080 --> 0:05:14.960 I loved recording studios. David was my buddy, my partner. 0:05:15.600 --> 0:05:19.320 His parents were both voiceover actors, and so they remember 0:05:19.360 --> 0:05:21.520 them taking us to a place called the United Sound, 0:05:21.520 --> 0:05:24.479 which is the studio where John Lee Hooker cut Boogie 0:05:24.560 --> 0:05:27.920 Chilling and George Clinton had it locked out from the 0:05:28.040 --> 0:05:31.000 late seventies early eighties and it still standard by the while, 0:05:32.200 --> 0:05:34.600 And so they took us down there maybe when we 0:05:34.600 --> 0:05:37.520 were twelve, to watch and records and commercials or something. 0:05:38.120 --> 0:05:40.480 And I walked into that big room and saw them 0:05:40.520 --> 0:05:43.600 mic stands everywhere in the cables hanging in all the 0:05:43.839 --> 0:05:47.279 year and it just looked like I wanted to spend 0:05:47.320 --> 0:05:50.320 the rest of my life in Edinburgh, Man. So that 0:05:50.400 --> 0:05:53.320 got me going. When I was in my early twenties, 0:05:53.920 --> 0:05:57.760 there's something called the Recording Institute of America which had 0:05:57.800 --> 0:06:01.880 started like almost like trade school, six week class and 0:06:01.920 --> 0:06:05.479 recording engineering, and they franchised it out in Detroit, and 0:06:05.560 --> 0:06:09.440 the class itself, it wasn't looking back on it. They 0:06:09.680 --> 0:06:14.640 taught EQ wrong. They didn't even know how equalizers are, 0:06:17.279 --> 0:06:20.360 so the curriculum needed work. But it got me in 0:06:20.360 --> 0:06:23.560 that room at United Sound, and then from there I 0:06:23.600 --> 0:06:26.160 was able to come a guy, really, I don't know 0:06:26.200 --> 0:06:29.279 any other way to put it, a guy named Jack 0:06:29.360 --> 0:06:31.920 Tan who owned a little Hrax studio on top of 0:06:31.920 --> 0:06:35.320 a warehouse. He needed an engineer, and I told him 0:06:35.360 --> 0:06:39.480 I was a graduate May and I got in there. 0:06:39.560 --> 0:06:42.120 I was able to experiment. Then later got into a 0:06:42.120 --> 0:06:46.680 west Lake room called the Sound Suite. SOU and D 0:06:46.960 --> 0:06:50.160 s U I. T. E. Were Aretha recorder and Bob 0:06:50.200 --> 0:06:52.880 Segre made records and there it was kind of jumping 0:06:53.200 --> 0:06:55.360 and they let me go in at midnight and just 0:06:55.400 --> 0:06:59.560 start making making any kind of records I could At 0:06:59.600 --> 0:07:03.120 that point, were you making purely your ound stuff or 0:07:03.200 --> 0:07:06.000 we did you already start producing other people? Now that 0:07:06.160 --> 0:07:08.000 it was there was not Watch Stuff was really the 0:07:08.040 --> 0:07:11.880 first actual record we made that that came out, and 0:07:12.000 --> 0:07:14.720 that was we were just trying to create a little 0:07:15.440 --> 0:07:18.560 little microcosm of the music we grew up with. You 0:07:18.560 --> 0:07:20.960 can hear on our first record we had Wayne Cramer 0:07:20.960 --> 0:07:25.200 from the MC five playing guitar. We had Marcus Bellgrave, 0:07:25.360 --> 0:07:27.560 great jazz trumpeter who at the time was playing to 0:07:27.680 --> 0:07:33.160 Charles Mingus. He played trumpet on Larry Fritangelo from George 0:07:33.200 --> 0:07:36.960 Clinton's organization. It was playing percussion, and it was meant 0:07:37.000 --> 0:07:41.480 to amalgamate all those sounds and to create the vibe 0:07:42.040 --> 0:07:45.000 of that period in Detroit and what we grew up 0:07:45.040 --> 0:07:47.240 listening to. And I didn't know what I was doing, man, 0:07:47.520 --> 0:07:50.280 it was we were just doing anything we could. We 0:07:50.280 --> 0:07:52.760 had no money to work with, so that's a really 0:07:52.760 --> 0:07:54.560 great thing. When you have no bread to work with, 0:07:55.120 --> 0:07:58.040 you have to rely on creativity. You can't just hire 0:07:58.240 --> 0:08:00.920 David Campbell to come write some strings to fill up 0:08:00.920 --> 0:08:03.960 the bridge and make it rise. You gotta like find 0:08:04.080 --> 0:08:06.800 rusty nails and grind them together and put them in 0:08:07.240 --> 0:08:10.640 pitch and a harmonizer. So it was. It was a 0:08:10.720 --> 0:08:13.320 great period along for that period in the way where 0:08:13.080 --> 0:08:17.000 we were. It was an uphill battle. It's a twenty 0:08:17.040 --> 0:08:19.800 four tracks studio. There were always two tracks that weren't working. 0:08:21.400 --> 0:08:25.160 Two that's great and some and somehow we came up 0:08:25.160 --> 0:08:27.480 with an album and a guy named Michael Zulka. I 0:08:27.480 --> 0:08:29.200 don't know if you ever ran in Michael. He owned 0:08:29.200 --> 0:08:34.360 a copy called See Records The Coconuts. Yeah, yeah, So 0:08:34.600 --> 0:08:37.360 he gave us a deal. I think also, who else 0:08:37.400 --> 0:08:41.160 was on the label the Contortions Maybe the Contortions, Yeah, yeah, 0:08:41.200 --> 0:08:45.720 James White and the Blacks, Christina, the waitresses, the Kid 0:08:45.760 --> 0:08:52.400 Creole and Cody Mundy were They were the foundational artists 0:08:52.400 --> 0:08:55.160 at the label. I got an email from Michael Zulka 0:08:55.240 --> 0:08:58.839 the other day, so wow, yeah, now he's wonderful. I 0:08:58.920 --> 0:09:02.079 stay in touch with him, and he was a Medici man. 0:09:02.120 --> 0:09:05.280 He was great. He just encouraged us to be as 0:09:05.440 --> 0:09:08.679 different as we could be. My favorite story with him 0:09:09.679 --> 0:09:12.120 we were recording in Detroit. He was sending us money 0:09:12.160 --> 0:09:16.880 in little and drabs and he said, I want you 0:09:16.960 --> 0:09:20.800 to send me rough mixes every night of what you're doing. 0:09:21.440 --> 0:09:24.839 These are like my babies. Well at that time you 0:09:24.920 --> 0:09:27.800 can just like burn files and email them. It meant. 0:09:28.240 --> 0:09:31.000 And I was working all night to ten in the morning. 0:09:31.040 --> 0:09:33.640 I had to stay up to runoffs in real time, 0:09:34.600 --> 0:09:38.280 make a cassette and go to FedEx myself and drop 0:09:38.320 --> 0:09:39.960 it off for him so he could listen to it 0:09:40.360 --> 0:09:43.360 the next day. And it got really tires of that, 0:09:43.640 --> 0:09:49.000 you know, for so so we said said, let's let's 0:09:49.040 --> 0:09:51.680 put an end to this, right, So we programmed all 0:09:51.679 --> 0:09:55.240 these sequencers we had laying around with the volume down, 0:09:55.720 --> 0:09:57.480 so we couldn't hear what we were doing. We didn't 0:09:57.480 --> 0:09:59.680 know what sounds were attached or what we We're just 0:09:59.720 --> 0:10:02.719 banged down him. And then I said to David was, 0:10:02.800 --> 0:10:04.640 I said, just go out there and yell something man 0:10:05.520 --> 0:10:08.839 and uh. And the sax player Dave McMurray, went out 0:10:08.840 --> 0:10:11.080 there with him and started playing. But they were just 0:10:11.200 --> 0:10:13.320 they weren't hearing the music. They were just playing stuff. 0:10:14.040 --> 0:10:17.160 And he yelled something about hello Dad, I'm in jail. 0:10:17.600 --> 0:10:20.640 Was about two minutes long. We put it on a cassette. 0:10:21.040 --> 0:10:23.600 We brought the brought the sound back up. It was. 0:10:24.000 --> 0:10:32.520 It was written, recorded and mixed simultaneously, and we FedEx 0:10:32.640 --> 0:10:35.200 that to him. We thought that would We figured he'd 0:10:35.240 --> 0:10:37.600 call and say, all right, you don't have to send 0:10:37.640 --> 0:10:42.520 us anymore stuff every day. No, of course, not at 0:10:42.760 --> 0:10:45.160 ten in the morning. The next stayed up. I wanted 0:10:45.160 --> 0:10:47.320 to hear his reaction, right, And of course he called 0:10:47.360 --> 0:10:49.680 up and he said it's the most wonderful thing you've 0:10:49.679 --> 0:10:54.880 ever done, and he was probably right. It turned out 0:10:54.920 --> 0:10:58.200 it's been in like eight different movies and the summoned 0:10:58.200 --> 0:11:03.320 in an animation or toured in animation festivals for years, 0:11:03.360 --> 0:11:06.200 and it was a It was a great lesson in 0:11:07.280 --> 0:11:12.240 not overthinking stuff and dropping self consciousness and just having 0:11:12.280 --> 0:11:17.320 the confidence to go out there and do anything. And 0:11:17.360 --> 0:11:21.920 it's also testimony to Michael's taste that he heard that 0:11:22.240 --> 0:11:25.240 and recognized the honesty of the thing. Yeah, it's amazing 0:11:25.280 --> 0:11:29.200 how these things work. What motivated you just move from 0:11:29.240 --> 0:11:32.880 being an artist to being a producer. I never saw 0:11:32.880 --> 0:11:37.320 them as disconnected. I'm old, but I'm not old enough. 0:11:37.960 --> 0:11:42.240 I remember the Beatles using this, using the studio as 0:11:42.280 --> 0:11:45.520 a musical texture, so to me that they were all 0:11:45.840 --> 0:11:48.800 one and the same, it was just it was another instrument. 0:11:48.840 --> 0:11:51.400 And I still see it that way. Well, what was 0:11:51.440 --> 0:11:55.320 the first thing you produced that way? It wasn't your group? Well, 0:11:55.320 --> 0:11:58.400 I did some odd things for Michael. I've produced his wife, 0:11:58.440 --> 0:12:02.040 a singer named Christina, and then there were some English 0:12:02.040 --> 0:12:04.719 groups that it was that was our first album. We 0:12:04.720 --> 0:12:07.520 we did all right over in England and then we 0:12:07.520 --> 0:12:10.280 started getting a coached by people. But the first big 0:12:10.400 --> 0:12:14.520 artist to call me was Carly Simon and she really 0:12:15.400 --> 0:12:18.120 went out on a limb. I think Frank Philippetti had 0:12:18.600 --> 0:12:20.720 had worked on some of her stuff, and she was 0:12:20.760 --> 0:12:24.680 looking for younger people to come in and infuse some 0:12:24.760 --> 0:12:27.120 new blood. And she took a real chance on me. 0:12:27.800 --> 0:12:30.560 And what was the experience like for you? Oh? Man, 0:12:30.720 --> 0:12:35.280 it's Carly Simon. I used to I used to stare 0:12:35.280 --> 0:12:37.679 at the cover of playing possum, right, you know, And 0:12:37.720 --> 0:12:40.640 now here I am in her house, eating dinner with her. 0:12:40.920 --> 0:12:43.640 It blew my mind. And she was she was lovely. 0:12:45.000 --> 0:12:47.280 I was going to a rough period then, as in 0:12:47.320 --> 0:12:50.480 the middle of a divorce, and she helped me get 0:12:50.600 --> 0:12:54.120 an apartment in New York. She actually went to the 0:12:54.160 --> 0:12:57.959 tenants committee, and at that time, Carly Simon where she's 0:12:58.000 --> 0:13:00.280 like the queen of New York, right, So of course 0:13:00.280 --> 0:13:02.439 they wouldn't. I didn't even have a credit card. But 0:13:02.600 --> 0:13:06.160 she came in and vouched for me, and I got 0:13:06.160 --> 0:13:09.520 an apartment and she was wonderful. Man. I learned a 0:13:09.520 --> 0:13:11.760 lot from working with her too. And we're still living 0:13:11.800 --> 0:13:13.680 in So this is when you were still living in 0:13:13.720 --> 0:13:16.160 Detroit and then you moved to New York. I moved 0:13:16.200 --> 0:13:18.600 to New York while I was making a Carley Simon record. 0:13:19.160 --> 0:13:21.040 I got a divorce and moved to New York. And 0:13:21.080 --> 0:13:23.280 then it was an adjustment. In fact, I don't think 0:13:23.320 --> 0:13:26.200 I ever really found my groove in New York. I 0:13:26.240 --> 0:13:28.960 was struggling. I was doing the same thing I was 0:13:29.040 --> 0:13:32.760 doing in Detroit, approaching the records the same, but they 0:13:32.800 --> 0:13:36.160 weren't getting over. We weren't getting any hits. Then I 0:13:36.160 --> 0:13:40.280 had this one experience, and this was a life changer. 0:13:41.600 --> 0:13:44.680 I got hired to produce a band for Virgin Records 0:13:44.679 --> 0:13:47.559 in the UK. And my wife was the A and 0:13:47.720 --> 0:13:50.280 R at Virgin in the UK. That's not met her, 0:13:51.160 --> 0:13:53.840 so she was somehow involved in hooking me up at 0:13:53.840 --> 0:13:57.080 the spank called Award Brothers three brothers from Barnesley, which 0:13:57.160 --> 0:13:59.920 is kind of like being from Iowa. And they had 0:14:00.040 --> 0:14:04.280 a little church where they made these great four track demos, 0:14:04.440 --> 0:14:08.400 great guitar basin drums, and then a bidding war started 0:14:08.440 --> 0:14:11.000 over them. And now there's all this pressure. Now you 0:14:11.000 --> 0:14:13.200 can't go to Barnesley to make a record with these guys. 0:14:13.240 --> 0:14:14.720 We got to bring them to New York and do 0:14:14.760 --> 0:14:16.640 it right. So they've never even been in New York, 0:14:16.760 --> 0:14:19.040 so they get plunked down in the middle and it 0:14:19.680 --> 0:14:21.920 didn't go well. And then and our guy came in 0:14:22.000 --> 0:14:24.840 from England and didn't like what he heard, and he 0:14:25.360 --> 0:14:27.960 pulled the band out. Man. He took him home and 0:14:28.000 --> 0:14:29.680 didn't call me. I came to the studio the next 0:14:29.720 --> 0:14:32.480 day and they were on a plane going back. I 0:14:32.480 --> 0:14:36.680 didn't hear from them for a month. It was harsh. 0:14:36.720 --> 0:14:38.400 And then they called me in a month. They said, well, 0:14:38.400 --> 0:14:41.800 we're going to do some overdubs here. You can. We're 0:14:41.800 --> 0:14:43.760 not gonna pay for it, but if you if you want, 0:14:43.840 --> 0:14:47.800 you can fly over on your own dime and pay 0:14:47.840 --> 0:14:49.920 for a hotel, but you can still work on the record. 0:14:50.000 --> 0:14:52.480 And I had nothing going so I thought, all right, 0:14:52.520 --> 0:14:54.440 I'll go. So I went over and I did overdubs 0:14:54.440 --> 0:14:57.120 with him for two weeks and it's okay, you're back 0:14:57.120 --> 0:14:59.200 in our good graces now. Then I didn't hear from 0:14:59.240 --> 0:15:02.920 them for a month. Then when they called me said 0:15:02.920 --> 0:15:05.920 we're going to start mixing on this date in uh 0:15:06.280 --> 0:15:09.720 Like it was a residential studio in England somewhere again. 0:15:09.800 --> 0:15:11.760 You can fly over on your own dime if you want, 0:15:11.800 --> 0:15:13.720 and you can be present if you want. So I 0:15:13.840 --> 0:15:16.160 flew over and it was not going well. It was 0:15:16.200 --> 0:15:17.880 not the right guy to mix the song. He was 0:15:17.920 --> 0:15:20.520 a good engineer, but he wasn't the right guy, and 0:15:20.720 --> 0:15:24.480 they kept talking about and our guy. I was saying, 0:15:24.480 --> 0:15:27.080 it's got a sound like Don Henley, and it sounded nothing. 0:15:27.120 --> 0:15:31.000 There was nothing on any track that sounded like Don's record. 0:15:31.520 --> 0:15:33.760 But finally I said, all right, let me go to 0:15:33.960 --> 0:15:38.160 LA and I'll mixed with let me mix the single 0:15:38.200 --> 0:15:42.160 with Greg Ladanni, who engineered Don Henley's records. From the mix, 0:15:42.600 --> 0:15:44.440 So fly back to New York. I'm going to pick 0:15:44.520 --> 0:15:46.680 up my wife. We're going to look at apartments and 0:15:47.200 --> 0:15:51.440 in LA while we're there, So I take a taxi in, 0:15:51.560 --> 0:15:53.240 we get we get in the cab at midnight on 0:15:53.240 --> 0:15:57.160 a Friday. I got the two two two intrials under 0:15:57.200 --> 0:15:59.320 my arm for the mix, and we get up to 0:15:59.320 --> 0:16:03.080 the ticket count there and she says, wait, we're the tapes. 0:16:03.280 --> 0:16:05.280 And I left him in the trunk of a New 0:16:05.360 --> 0:16:09.880 York taxicab at midnight on a Friday night. And thankfully 0:16:09.880 --> 0:16:11.840 I kept the receipt and I had the medallion number. 0:16:11.880 --> 0:16:15.800 But nothing was going to happen till Monday, and Greg 0:16:15.880 --> 0:16:20.080 Ladonney was waiting for me on Saturday. So I didn't 0:16:20.120 --> 0:16:22.520 know what to do. Man. I actually I lied to 0:16:22.640 --> 0:16:25.720 people and I said I got mugged at what's the 0:16:25.800 --> 0:16:30.280 bus terminal called her, It's a transit authority. So I 0:16:30.320 --> 0:16:36.520 got mugged at the and I called. I called Michael 0:16:36.520 --> 0:16:40.040 Brauer and Media Sound, who they were good friends, and 0:16:40.320 --> 0:16:42.640 that I need I needs to help me with this. 0:16:42.720 --> 0:16:46.640 And we found a reel that had everything but the 0:16:46.720 --> 0:16:50.080 drums on it, so we had that flown over and 0:16:50.400 --> 0:16:54.200 um and Steve Ferronia came in and I said, you 0:16:54.280 --> 0:16:56.240 got to it's a band of brothers. You got to 0:16:56.240 --> 0:16:58.360 play exactly what he played, and I gave him a 0:16:58.440 --> 0:17:00.560 cassette of it, and he learned the part and he 0:17:00.640 --> 0:17:02.840 overdubbed it and they all did it for free, and 0:17:02.920 --> 0:17:05.320 I was able to get on a plane Saturday night, 0:17:05.440 --> 0:17:08.160 and Gregor Donnie says, fine, we'll do it Sunday instead. 0:17:08.600 --> 0:17:13.200 So I go to the complex that was y Yeah. 0:17:13.280 --> 0:17:15.000 So I go over there to meet greg and he says, 0:17:15.000 --> 0:17:16.639 all right, well, I'll have a seat in the lounge. 0:17:16.640 --> 0:17:21.679 It will take you know, take you know, eight hours 0:17:21.760 --> 0:17:23.919 or something to mix it. And I'm sitting there. I 0:17:23.960 --> 0:17:27.080 got my walkman and I remember Peter Gabriel's album, so 0:17:27.359 --> 0:17:29.800 I had just come out right. I'm playing the song 0:17:29.920 --> 0:17:33.919 Don't give Up over and over and crying. I'm just 0:17:33.920 --> 0:17:37.640 sitting there with the walkman on crying like I thought 0:17:37.680 --> 0:17:40.840 I bottomed out. And while I'm sitting in that lounge 0:17:40.840 --> 0:17:44.000 because I was working there on Sunday instead of Saturday 0:17:44.000 --> 0:17:45.760 when there was a different artist in the other room, 0:17:46.119 --> 0:17:48.760 Bonnie Rate came into the lounge and that's how I 0:17:48.840 --> 0:17:52.520 met Bonnie. And meeting and meet and Bonnie Rate changed 0:17:52.560 --> 0:17:56.480 my whole life. So it's a good lesson, man, And 0:17:56.560 --> 0:18:01.040 how you know you can when you think everything's going wrong, 0:18:01.240 --> 0:18:05.439 maybe it's really going right. Yeah, I never know. We 0:18:05.560 --> 0:18:09.440 never know, and the brakes really never come from where 0:18:09.480 --> 0:18:12.760 you expect them to come. It's always someone you met 0:18:12.840 --> 0:18:16.280 along the way to do the thing. That's the one 0:18:16.320 --> 0:18:19.360 who's going to change your life. So so I'll moved 0:18:19.359 --> 0:18:23.360 out to LA and started recording with Bonnie Ray. How 0:18:23.400 --> 0:18:27.160 long did you work with Bonnie? Well, we did four albums, 0:18:27.520 --> 0:18:30.119 but that album Nika Time was the first one we 0:18:30.160 --> 0:18:34.399 did and that that changed you know that wanted a 0:18:34.400 --> 0:18:37.320 Grammy for album album. I think it one like five 0:18:37.400 --> 0:18:41.679 Grammys or something. Man, I really went from being a 0:18:41.840 --> 0:18:46.879 pariah to having work. I feel like I'm still riding 0:18:46.920 --> 0:18:52.760 the like the wind from Bonnie Ray still in my 0:18:53.080 --> 0:18:55.359 in my sales. Yeah, You've done a lot of good 0:18:55.359 --> 0:19:00.960 work in between, though, I'll say thank you, appreciate, but 0:19:01.880 --> 0:19:04.480 it was a very special working with her Man. She's 0:19:04.520 --> 0:19:07.720 just such a great artist. We'll be back with Rick 0:19:07.800 --> 0:19:14.680 Rubin and Don Was. After a quick break, we're back 0:19:14.680 --> 0:19:17.800 with more from Don Was. Do you think that there's 0:19:17.840 --> 0:19:21.639 something special that happens when you work with an artist 0:19:21.680 --> 0:19:25.399 the first time that's different than when you work with 0:19:25.440 --> 0:19:28.480 them over and over again. Yeah. I mean, I think 0:19:29.400 --> 0:19:32.199 when you do anything for the first time, you know 0:19:32.320 --> 0:19:37.800 you have I think creating and recreating a two very 0:19:37.920 --> 0:19:44.280 different neurological processes. So the first time, it's all creation 0:19:44.320 --> 0:19:47.600 because you have no routine, you have no anything, You're 0:19:48.119 --> 0:19:53.840 you're just building a dynamic and method of working together. 0:19:54.240 --> 0:19:57.280 Then to go back then, especially if it's been really successful, 0:19:57.320 --> 0:19:59.240 to go back to that same method and try to 0:19:59.280 --> 0:20:02.720 do it again now. We actually, I think the second 0:20:02.840 --> 0:20:05.960 record we made after the one after Nicked Time, I 0:20:05.960 --> 0:20:08.920 think that's a better album. It actually had more hits 0:20:08.920 --> 0:20:11.960 and sold more records. Yeah, and it had that song 0:20:12.080 --> 0:20:14.320 I Can't Make You Love Me on that Wow. But 0:20:14.680 --> 0:20:17.639 we were aware at the time that we had to overcome, 0:20:18.119 --> 0:20:20.159 but we were aware of the phenomenon that we were 0:20:20.160 --> 0:20:24.679 going back to recreate a methodology, for lack of a 0:20:24.720 --> 0:20:30.160 better term, a pattern that was set on something previous 0:20:30.200 --> 0:20:39.399 that had just caught some kind of crazy wind and spread. Yeah. 0:20:39.440 --> 0:20:42.320 I think more often than not, when you catch that wind, 0:20:42.960 --> 0:20:46.520 the healthiest thing to do is to just start from 0:20:46.560 --> 0:20:50.000 scratch on the next one. Is opposed to try instead 0:20:50.000 --> 0:20:53.280 of trying to part to it? Well, you can't. You know. 0:20:53.440 --> 0:20:55.840 One of those things that I've learned lately. I've been 0:20:55.840 --> 0:20:59.120 playing live more than ever in my life. I've been 0:20:59.520 --> 0:21:04.000 playing with Were you did a wonderful show? Oh you 0:21:04.080 --> 0:21:08.120 did well? I didn't know that I pay in Kawaii. 0:21:08.960 --> 0:21:12.280 Oh right, that was a wild night. Yeah, that's fantastic. 0:21:14.040 --> 0:21:17.359 That's a good one. Yeah. Well, playing with Bobby, first 0:21:17.359 --> 0:21:19.919 of all, you can never play the same set twice. 0:21:20.680 --> 0:21:24.080 And you can, I mean, like ever, you can never 0:21:24.119 --> 0:21:26.680 put the same list together twice. We have one hundred 0:21:26.760 --> 0:21:30.479 twenty songs to draw from, and we really don't repeat 0:21:30.520 --> 0:21:33.919 anything for four nights, but they're always put together in 0:21:33.920 --> 0:21:37.560 a different combination. And on top of that, we never 0:21:37.600 --> 0:21:40.440 ever ever play it the same way twice. There might 0:21:41.160 --> 0:21:43.760 it's got some loose form to it, but you don't 0:21:43.760 --> 0:21:47.159 know what thing is going to get stretched out. I 0:21:47.200 --> 0:21:49.560 don't know what the drummer is going to play a 0:21:49.560 --> 0:21:52.919 different beat, so it doesn't there's no point in playing 0:21:52.960 --> 0:21:55.399 the same thing I played last night, because everything's gonna 0:21:55.640 --> 0:21:58.800 be different. So the one thing I've really learned about 0:21:58.840 --> 0:22:02.040 him is that any thing but trying to repeat what 0:22:02.080 --> 0:22:04.840 you did the previous night is probably going to get 0:22:04.840 --> 0:22:07.879 you somewhere. But you also learn not to not to 0:22:07.920 --> 0:22:10.439 worry too much about it, and I just go out 0:22:10.480 --> 0:22:13.480 there and play. It's a hard thing to learn. It 0:22:13.560 --> 0:22:17.600 was one of the attractions that taking the gig. I 0:22:17.640 --> 0:22:21.680 was interested obviously in playing with them and playing those songs, 0:22:22.440 --> 0:22:28.440 but what I was really interested in was expanding fearlessness. 0:22:29.520 --> 0:22:34.240 I wanted to self consciousness is the enemy of really 0:22:34.280 --> 0:22:39.040 everything right, and I just wanted to get better at 0:22:39.200 --> 0:22:41.040 going out there, not knowing what I was going to 0:22:41.119 --> 0:22:43.720 do in front of twenty five hundred people and just 0:22:43.960 --> 0:22:46.240 start playing. And it's been. It's been great for that, 0:22:46.280 --> 0:22:50.919 but it it obviously has implications and everything that you 0:22:51.000 --> 0:22:53.800 do in life and in making records. I think that's 0:22:53.840 --> 0:22:56.159 been I don't stay up, threatening over what's going to 0:22:56.240 --> 0:22:58.239 happen the next day. I used to get. I mean, 0:22:58.280 --> 0:23:00.960 I still get nervous before every session. And it doesn't 0:23:01.000 --> 0:23:03.320 matter if it's Bob Dylan coming in or it's from 0:23:03.480 --> 0:23:07.320 nineteen year old kid making a first album, because you 0:23:07.560 --> 0:23:12.399 really don't know where that magic thing is going to 0:23:12.480 --> 0:23:14.920 come from. We all know how we can make an 0:23:14.920 --> 0:23:18.160