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Speaker 1: You have to decide which cult you're going to be

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Speaker 1: belonged to. Everybody who is not a loser isn't a cult.

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Speaker 2: Okay, only the losers are. They're not in cult.

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Speaker 1: But everybody else who was like up and coming that

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Speaker 1: they got ambition, they want.

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Speaker 2: To get on something with a life.

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Speaker 1: They're on tour, they're working eight hours, ten hours, they

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Speaker 1: working at their craft, and they're devoted to that.

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Speaker 2: They're in a cult.

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Speaker 3: Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. I'm

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Speaker 3: Jess Casavetto, executive producer of the Netflix series Dancing for

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Speaker 3: the Devil the Seven M TikTok Cult. This documentary series

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Speaker 3: explored the story of Robert Schin, the La based Chicaina

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Speaker 3: Church and Seven M Films. Shin founded Chicaina Church over

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Speaker 3: two decades ago before establishing Seven M Films and is

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Speaker 3: named in a civil lawsuit alleging abuse and cult like behavior.

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Speaker 4: And I'm Kalia Gray, former member of Chakina Church and

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Speaker 4: Seven M Films.

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Speaker 3: In this series, so far, we've spoken with ex Chakaina members,

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Speaker 3: family members of current members, a psychologist, social media journalists.

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Speaker 3: All of these folks painted such a broader picture of

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Speaker 3: Chicina and high controlled groups in general, and through the

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Speaker 3: process of this podcast so far, we've had plenty of

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Speaker 3: outreach from individuals in relation to Chkina, but also well

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Speaker 3: beyond specifically and other cult like environments, and their words

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Speaker 3: couldn't be ignored.

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Speaker 4: Coming up in this next chapter, we're going to explore

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Speaker 4: some of the stories that we've heard and share with you.

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Speaker 4: We really created this platform for individuals that want to

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Speaker 4: shine a light on their experiences. But before we get

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Speaker 4: to our next chapter, we want to reflect on some

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Speaker 4: of the guests that we've had on and the people

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Speaker 4: that we have connected with so far, things that stood

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Speaker 4: out and you know, just moments in the conversations that

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Speaker 4: really resonated with us.

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Speaker 3: Although we are going to be talking about other high

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Speaker 3: controlled groups, cult like environments, the door is open for

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Speaker 3: Chakaina members, ex members, current members, whoever wants to speak

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Speaker 3: when you feel ready. But to kick off this episode,

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Speaker 3: a couple episodes ago, Kalie and I were talking about

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Speaker 3: how there's a lot going on and we mentioned that

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Speaker 3: Alisha Lee has been posting on her social media stories

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Speaker 3: a countdown and sharing a lot of receipts. In addition

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Speaker 3: to that, Alicia has started to post a lot of

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Speaker 3: sermons from Robert and we would like to share some

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Speaker 3: of those. We did get permission from her to kind

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Speaker 3: of dive into that, but also to Kalia's point, it

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Speaker 3: does touch on some of those moments that we're going

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Speaker 3: to be reflecting on. One thing I did want to

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Speaker 3: also mention is that Alisha had shared that how in

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Speaker 3: these sermons, you're going to hear responses that are happening

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Speaker 3: from members of Chakaina that are responding to Robert with

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Speaker 3: hallelujah amens. And there's a lot of hate that's happening

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Speaker 3: on social media towards the dancers and those people that

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Speaker 3: they're dumb and how could they follow and what are

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Speaker 3: they thinking? And it's so clear. But when you're in

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Speaker 3: those type of environments and you're in those groups, I

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Speaker 3: think it's important for us to just lead with like

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Speaker 3: love and understanding and patience that it's going to have

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Speaker 3: to happen on their own time, and it can be

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Speaker 3: very easy for someone to engage in an environment like that.

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Speaker 3: You and Kevin had spoken a little bit about that

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Speaker 3: in Aubrey how sometimes these sermons are hours long, and

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Speaker 3: Aubrey mentioned at times like he doesn't even remember some

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Speaker 3: of it because they were so long, and he kind

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Speaker 3: of like I don't want to say, like he just

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Speaker 3: kind of blacked out, but like he was in the zone.

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Speaker 4: I mean absolutely, And even while I'm hearing like some

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Speaker 4: of these sermons, I'm like, I think I was there

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Speaker 4: for that, but I can't be too sure. And it

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Speaker 4: kind of speaks to that, Like you said, hours long

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Speaker 4: and so many a week that and you do just

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Speaker 4: in a way tune it out, but it's just so

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Speaker 4: much information, not.

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Speaker 5: All of it. It's going to be retained, and then

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Speaker 5: definitely hearing.

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Speaker 4: It back after you realize how problematic it is, and

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Speaker 4: we feel it a bit of ourselves of like I

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Speaker 4: can't believe I was listening to this man, Like I

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Speaker 4: agree with you, like this does sound crazy, but while there,

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Speaker 4: it's hard to see the big picture of things. I've

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Speaker 4: seen some of the comments as well underneath and just

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Speaker 4: it's a level of like victim blaming, So you're making

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Speaker 4: the person responsible for the crime and the abuse that

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Speaker 4: they're experiencing instead of blaming the person that's actually doing

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Speaker 4: the abuse. And I think that can be very problematic

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Speaker 4: and it can drive people deeper into the cults when

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Speaker 4: they're seeing like.

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Speaker 5: Oh, they're so stupid or they're so silly.

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Speaker 4: It's like, well, I'm gonna dig my heels in and

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Speaker 4: just further believe what is going on.

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Speaker 5: And I think it makes it more dangerous. And I understand.

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Speaker 4: I feel like most people, we want to see people

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Speaker 4: leave and see the truth and like open their eyes

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Speaker 4: in a way. But being mean or nasty, not leading

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Speaker 4: with love and compassion, like you said, is not the

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Speaker 4: best way of doing that.

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Speaker 3: I agree.

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Speaker 4: Just as a disclaimer, if you've been in this world

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Speaker 4: in any other high control groups or cult like environments,

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Speaker 4: some of this may be triggering for you, so please

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Speaker 4: take care when listening. So with that being said, let's

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Speaker 4: get started. This first one that I pulled, it really

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Speaker 4: reminded me of our conversation with Aubrey and also doctor Gideon,

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Speaker 4: So let's take a listen to it and then we

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Speaker 4: can reflect on it together.

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Speaker 1: I guess all these attentions because we are filled with

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Speaker 1: people are beautiful and successful. The annoying team makes us

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Speaker 1: beautiful and successful.

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Speaker 2: Amen.

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Speaker 1: You should see vict year and a half ago not

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Speaker 1: too good looking, Amen, but now he is because of

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Speaker 1: the nineteen Hallelujah. I said, Hellelujah. Even Miranda a couple

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Speaker 1: of years ago, you've seen her at all things like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: you know now she's beautiful and successful. Amen, Hellelijah. I

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Speaker 1: mean they call Aubrey handsome. Now he is, but before

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Speaker 1: he wasn't. What I always believe that anointing makes you.

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Speaker 2: Attractive.

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Speaker 1: It brings out the light in you. You know, everybody looks,

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Speaker 1: so I think with the best looking group in the

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Speaker 1: whole you know, in the whole world, and it's the

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Speaker 1: anointing that makes us good.

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Speaker 2: Hallliah. Yeah, So that's why.

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Speaker 1: Would be in the attack, because people are jealous, jealous

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Speaker 1: of our success, jealous of the glory that's in us.

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Speaker 1: And the Bible says where there's jealousy and self selfishness,

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Speaker 1: there's every evil thing.

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Speaker 2: Jane chapter three or sixteen. I'm not gonna be it,

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Speaker 2: but you know I love you.

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Speaker 3: One of the first things that stood out to me

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Speaker 3: is what we talked about in the tight Ises episode

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Speaker 3: when I mentioned that Kendra and Miranda were reflecting on

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Speaker 3: dying to themselves and they started to talk about their appearances.

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Speaker 3: And I just found that to be a little bit

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Speaker 3: jarring because one I thought that they looked beautiful in

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Speaker 3: those photos. But listening to this sermon, that was the

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Speaker 3: first thing that came to my mind is like, oh,

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Speaker 3: when you have someone sitting on the pulpit and also

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Speaker 3: very quickly going past the actual like Bible verse and

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Speaker 3: just reflecting on his own opinions, it hurt my heart

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Speaker 3: a little bit. It's just not right, and that starts

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Speaker 3: to like break a person down when you start to

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Speaker 3: think about your appearance and when your own pastor is

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Speaker 3: commenting on it, on whether or not you are ugly

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Speaker 3: or beautiful or successful, it's just jarring for me.

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Speaker 4: I also had a lot of experience with that because

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Speaker 4: you know, I wasn't so one who was in like

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Speaker 4: social media and the limelight, and so I think I

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Speaker 4: was really made to feel like, oh, Khalia, you don't

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Speaker 4: need that makeup because that's not your career.

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Speaker 5: You know, it would be like said in that way.

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Speaker 4: But then there was a lot that just made me

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Speaker 4: feel very less than when it came to like all

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Speaker 4: of my friends and like the people who I was,

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Speaker 4: you know, there and around and like my colleagues. So

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Speaker 4: hearing it back, it just reminds me of those times

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Speaker 4: where it's like, oh, KHLEI, like, you don't have to

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Speaker 4: wear the brand new clothes. I know we have to

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Speaker 4: dress them up, but it's because they're in the limelight.

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Speaker 4: They need the attention to bring eyes on the Kingdom

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Speaker 4: of God. Is like what they would say there would

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Speaker 4: be like, you know, everyone is important, but you don't

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Speaker 4: necessarily have to look good, so feel blessed about that.

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Speaker 4: I think that was like kind of the sentiments that

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Speaker 4: I would feel. And even hearing him like go in

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Speaker 4: on Aubrey was really so disheartening because it's like the

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Speaker 4: way that he had said it too, like oh, even Aubrey, like,

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Speaker 4: what do you mean? Like, yeah, I had mentioned how

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Speaker 4: like we heard doctor Gideon say, we're often taught that

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Speaker 4: imperfection is the reflection of something that's really broken inside

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Speaker 4: of you. Yeah, And so hearing that, I was like, no,

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Speaker 4: that was an attempt at breaking people down, like saying

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Speaker 4: like you're imperfect, so you must be broken because everything

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Speaker 4: in the Kingdom of God is perfect, and you know

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Speaker 4: we're taught to be you have to be perfect, just

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Speaker 4: like just like Jesus, just like God, Like that's that's

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Speaker 4: what you're striving to be. And so I know she

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Speaker 4: had doctor Gideon had also mentioned that part of the

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Speaker 4: deprogramming is understanding that we are imperfect people and we

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Speaker 4: have to do like the best that we can, and

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Speaker 4: the best that we can is okay. Yeah, And so

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Speaker 4: I think that was something for me that I did

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Speaker 4: also have to deprogram a little bit or gain a

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Speaker 4: little bit of that confidence back that I feel was

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Speaker 4: taken from me while I was there.

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Speaker 3: For sure, thank you for sharing that, Khaleak. So this

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Speaker 3: next sermon that we pulled. Obviously in the documentary, we

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Speaker 3: spoke a lot about Robert's system of giving tithing offering,

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Speaker 3: and in one of our episodes, Andrew so vulnerably and

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Speaker 3: openly talked about how much he was paid in the

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Speaker 3: flower shop and how he was going about tithing and

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Speaker 3: how again this has been going on for decades for Robert.

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Speaker 2: Matthew Chapter thirteen, verse forty four. May even in heaven.

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Speaker 4: It's like a treasure hidden.

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Speaker 1: Again, okay, Kingdom of Heaven, what's it like?

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Speaker 2: It's a hidden treasure? Okay? Continue and from.

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Speaker 4: Joint over it he goes and stills all that he has.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Kingdom of Heaven is a hidden treasure that has

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Speaker 1: a price, and you must buy you must pay for Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and that's that scripture tells us what the price is

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Speaker 1: that you've got.

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Speaker 2: That's it. That's a price. Let's take a price, and

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Speaker 2: that's it. You buy it. You can buy it, or

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Speaker 2: you can't buy it. That's it.

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Speaker 3: After hearing that sermon, that's obviously not a direct comment

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Speaker 3: about tiding, we have heard sermons like that where he says,

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Speaker 3: you know, you reap what you sew. What you give

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Speaker 3: is what you'll get back. And he is talking specifically

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Speaker 3: about finances, but curious on your take.

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Speaker 4: Something that they have said since I first started going

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Speaker 4: there was that money is like the lowest form of commitment,

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Speaker 4: that's like level one.

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Speaker 5: That should be like the easiest thing to give up.

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Speaker 4: And so like when I hear sermons like this, and

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Speaker 4: to your point, like he is absolutely talking about financially,

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Speaker 4: because it's in almost every sermon, but it does go

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Speaker 4: deeper into like, but what else are you willing to

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Speaker 4: pay with your time, your family? What else are you

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Speaker 4: willing to sacrifice for the kingdom of God.

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Speaker 3: It's a lot of pressure. It's like if you just

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Speaker 3: think about like work, if you're giving everything that you

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Speaker 3: have in the eight to twelve or however, many hours

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Speaker 3: that you're working and you know you're giving your all

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Speaker 3: and as much as you can, and someone comes in

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Speaker 3: and they say, hey, you're not working hard enough. And

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Speaker 3: for you, you're like, maybe the time that I'm committing here

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Speaker 3: in this church is all that I can give. That's

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Speaker 3: a lot of weight to put on a person. And

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Speaker 3: constantly instilling that mentality that you're not doing enough, you're

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Speaker 3: not giving enough, I could see how that could break

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Speaker 3: a person down if they're constantly being reminded of that.

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Speaker 4: And it's also adding on to that level of expectations.

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Speaker 4: So of like what you should give, like like you said,

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Speaker 4: multiple sermons on it, but like so the dancers are

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Speaker 4: expected to basically give a total of fifty percent, so

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Speaker 4: twenty percent management fee is seven M, and then thirty

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Speaker 4: percent for like tithes and offerings and granted, like there

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Speaker 4: was a very strong expectation to give that. So there

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Speaker 4: are some people who gave way more, there are some

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Speaker 4: people who gave less, but like it was definitely like

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Speaker 4: a very heavily influenced expectation to where like if you're

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Speaker 4: not meeting this bare minimum, the idea is like, well

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Speaker 4: you must not be like Christian enough, you know, like

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Speaker 4: you said, like you're not doing enough, You're not giving enough.

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Speaker 4: Robert would say all the time that, like this is

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Speaker 4: an extreme church because we really want to enter the

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Speaker 4: Kingdom and the.

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Speaker 5: Only way to enter heaven is to be extreme.

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Speaker 4: And so what would be extreme is, oh, giving one

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Speaker 4: hundred percent of your income. And he would talk about

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Speaker 4: the people, specifically the people in that first row, so

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Speaker 4: like the mentors and the people who've been there for years,

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Speaker 4: that like they give it all. They I just give

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Speaker 4: them a little bit of allowance and they give it all.

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Speaker 4: Look at how dedicated they are. This is forgive me

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Speaker 4: for I have followed. We'll be right back.

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Speaker 3: Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. Now

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Speaker 3: back to our conversation.

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Speaker 4: This next sermon is about cutting family, which is I

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Speaker 4: think one of the biggest catalysts into like getting the

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Speaker 4: story out and getting it into different people because of

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Speaker 4: how many people were losing contact with their kids and

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Speaker 4: with their family members to this group. So let's listen

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Speaker 4: to this sermon and then we can reflect on him

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Speaker 4: talking about cutting family.

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Speaker 1: Cutting family, okay, is a privilege that you must earn, Okay, Otherwise,

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Speaker 1: if you cut their family. All it does is cause

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Speaker 1: us trouble.

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Speaker 2: You get what I'm saying.

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Speaker 1: That's something some of our mentors don't really understand. And

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Speaker 1: once I have to step is just you know, I

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Speaker 1: had to text mathe let them talk to parents.

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Speaker 2: What are you doing? Right? So don't do that. It's

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Speaker 2: going to cause trouble because.

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Speaker 1: People out there, they're not gonna understand separating yourself from

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Speaker 1: the world. They're not going to understand that. So you

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Speaker 1: got to do it in a way that they don't

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Speaker 1: even feel it.

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Speaker 2: And see that.

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Speaker 1: So far, you know, this problem, okay, is caused by Wilkins.

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Speaker 1: We handle it all wrong. Okay, It's a trouble that

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Speaker 1: we brought upon ourselves. That's why when I decided to

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Speaker 1: take over, is that I said, okay, dash Mr.

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Speaker 2: You go and visit in Michigan. You got to be undercover.

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Speaker 1: You know what undercover means they don't know that you're

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Speaker 1: cutting them. Once they know that you're cutting them, that

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Speaker 1: is wrong approach. You got to cut them without them

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Speaker 1: knowing that you're cutting them. That means you got to

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Speaker 1: meet with them.

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Speaker 2: You got to talk to.

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Speaker 1: Them, you know, way that they understand your friends everybody.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you follow me so far in the two point

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Speaker 2: zero your execution being terrible. Amen. It takes diligence to

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Speaker 2: be able.

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Speaker 1: To cut your friends and family out in a way

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Speaker 1: that they don't even know that they didn't cut out,

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Speaker 1: because that's what the Bible says, right, separate yourself right right,

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Speaker 1: doing the word.

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Speaker 2: But you do it lazy way. Oh I'm I'm just

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Speaker 2: gonna ignore them. Well you can't.

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Speaker 1: You can't ignore speaking tickets, you can't ignore family.

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Speaker 2: They're not gonna go away.

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Speaker 1: All he does is bring attention, okay to the church,

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Speaker 1: and they're gonna attack me.

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Speaker 2: I'm just sharing the word. What the word says, you know.

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Speaker 1: I mean, the thing is not only you're supposed to

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Speaker 1: cut your family, you gotta cut yourself.

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Speaker 4: The thing that really is irking me is all of

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Speaker 4: the sermons leading up to the sermon Robert had said

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Speaker 4: the exact opposite. And so when things started coming out

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Speaker 4: and started doing now all of a sudden, it was like,

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Speaker 4: oh no, no, no, no, like you guys were doing it

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Speaker 4: all wrong, like you should have been slowly doing it

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Speaker 4: to where they can't even tell He never that was

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Speaker 4: not what he would preach before that. It would be

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Speaker 4: like no, don't respond to them at all. Like I

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Speaker 4: remember there was one point on the pulpit where he

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Speaker 4: would like tell the story of someone was on the

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Speaker 4: phone with like their grandma, and he was like kind

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Speaker 4: of like mocking them.

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Speaker 5: Like oh grandma, grandma.

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Speaker 4: Like oh that he was saying, like, oh, it's so disgusting,

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Speaker 4: Like you're basically just saying like you care more about

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Speaker 4: your flesh family than God, and God should always be first.

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Speaker 4: So like that's kind of like why, I'm like, it's

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Speaker 4: so jarring that now all of a sudden, when you're

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Speaker 4: being called out, it's showing me that I think he's

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Speaker 4: just not used to having people that actually have like family,

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Speaker 4: have friends are in the spotlight because he would always

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Speaker 4: well I won't say always, but it seems like he

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Speaker 4: would be going after people who were immigrants, who didn't

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Speaker 4: have too much family, who weren't necessarily well off or from,

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Speaker 4: you know, families that are involved in their lives, and

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Speaker 4: so it was easier to get away with isolating people.

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Speaker 4: But now with this new group, it's like you're trying

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Speaker 4: to isolate people that are very involved in their communities,

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Speaker 4: very loved by their communities. That's why he had to

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Speaker 4: change his tune while like blaming the rest of us

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Speaker 4: for like following what he was saying in the first place.

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Speaker 3: Leah was mentioning when we interviewed her, when Daniel cut

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Speaker 3: ties with his family. But I think that's something that

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Speaker 3: was like really telling, is that he's been doing this

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Speaker 3: for decades. You know, he's not getting the response that

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Speaker 3: he wants. You had loyal people like Daniel willing to

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Speaker 3: cut off their family, but they are still very close knit.

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Speaker 3: And then you have him just straight up calling the

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Speaker 3: Wilking family out in this sermon, which, as we know

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Speaker 3: at that time, that's when things really like shit hit

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Speaker 3: the fan. Everything started to come out. The Wilkings are

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Speaker 3: speaking out, they're doing their Instagram live, you have Katie

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Speaker 3: Joy posting comments where then Leah mentioned that she used

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Speaker 3: that platform to try to write a letter to her

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Speaker 3: brother to try to get attention, like there is so

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Speaker 3: much happening, which I believe is seemingly around this time

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Speaker 3: that starts to put the pressure on him. And so

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Speaker 3: when the pressure goes on him, he has to deflect

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Speaker 3: and put it on someone else, and that seemingly to

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Speaker 3: be Matthew and everyone else. Everyone else's fault, but his.

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Speaker 4: Even just the fact that that is a big message

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Speaker 4: that he preaches often of like cutting family and like

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Speaker 4: even saying it's a privilege to cut family. And like

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Speaker 4: now that we're on the other end and we're seeing

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Speaker 4: the families that are affected, like we've had Megdalia, Melanie, Marilyn, Like,

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Speaker 4: oh my gosh, Marilyn's story of like how she's felt

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Speaker 4: that she's missed so much of her family's life, like

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Speaker 4: birthdays and parties and that time that you just don't

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Speaker 4: get back. It can be very devastating, and also the

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Speaker 4: relationships that like might never be the same.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, and Amanda. I mean we read that letter

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Speaker 3: last week of from Amanda's father and that was from

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Speaker 3: decades ago. And so this has been an ongoing thing,

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Speaker 3: and I think obviously what Robert's dealing with now is

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Speaker 3: social media. Social media is like the thing that he

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Speaker 3: wanted to use to his benefit, which ultimately might be

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Speaker 3: the thing to take him down.

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Speaker 4: And also just like even like you said, for now,

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Speaker 4: what's happening with Reino, where Reino has deleted his social

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Speaker 4: media and he's gone basically missed, like people aren't sure

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Speaker 4: where he is, Like the hashtag wears Reino. We've talked

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Speaker 4: about on here, but like it's that, I don't know,

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Speaker 4: cutting a family and now it's also just like cutting

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Speaker 4: off the world. It's really scary, you know. It makes

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Speaker 4: me really worry for the people that are still there. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: absolutely on that.

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Speaker 3: When social media picked up this story and it got

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Speaker 3: out there, obviously, like that's when we became aware of

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Speaker 3: the story and we started to look into this deeper,

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Speaker 3: which I've mentioned many times, but that pressure that he's

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Speaker 3: feeling from social media, then it gets one step further.

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Speaker 3: He starts to feel the pressure from media. And it's

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Speaker 3: worth a listen on this one because he really takes

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Speaker 3: some time to talk about Netflix's stocks and where they're at,

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Speaker 3: and I'm like, I think they're doing just fine, but uh, yeah,

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Speaker 3: we can have a little listen.

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Speaker 2: During this time, I had to.

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Speaker 1: Write out my warfare prayer list. So I have my

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Speaker 1: notes and I do my prayer and then I put

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Speaker 1: it in front of me and.

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Speaker 2: Then I speak it out daily.

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Speaker 1: I had to plead the blood over you know, Sandwich

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Speaker 1: and her minions.

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Speaker 2: Many extra Kin Church members.

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Speaker 1: Specifically put out Wilkings family and family members of other

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Speaker 1: current Chicon church members, the dance community, and some of

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Speaker 1: the few people their medium production companies including HBO, Max, Netflix,

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Speaker 1: and I declared C and D cease and desist over them.

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Speaker 1: I declare stop communication between the opposing forces. And then

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Speaker 1: I confessed anyone that touches the annointy Annointed.

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Speaker 2: Which shows I will suffer harm.

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Speaker 3: This is a man of God that we're talking about,

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Speaker 3: and as a pastor, spreading harm and putting out that

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Speaker 3: narrative is so dangerous but also like reckless in my opinion,

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Speaker 3: Why would you not be praying for all of us

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Speaker 3: that are speaking against the quote unquote anointed and praying

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Speaker 3: for understanding and praying for acceptance or whatever it might be.

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Speaker 3: But to say that you want these people to suffer harm,

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Speaker 3: I guess for me, I just I feel for the

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Speaker 3: Wilkings during this one. Like knowing that your daughter is

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Speaker 3: sitting into that room knowing that this man is speaking

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Speaker 3: out saying that he wants harm against them. That's got

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Speaker 3: to be so hard for her to hear. And it's

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Speaker 3: got to be so hard for the Wilkings to have

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Speaker 3: to hear this sermon and the Rino's to hear this sermon.

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Speaker 3: I just feel for all the families that have been affected,

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Speaker 3: and we talked a little bit about this on a

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Speaker 3: previous episode, is that there's so many other people nig

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Speaker 3: Dhalia's episode and talking about the effects that it has

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Speaker 3: on family members, that one makes me a little bit angry.

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Speaker 4: Absolutely, And to echo what you're saying, it really is

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Speaker 4: like against everything that the Bible, Like the Bible says

431
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Speaker 4: vengeance is the Lord's Like the Bible tells you you're

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Speaker 4: supposed to just love on people.

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Speaker 5: You're supposed to just come from a.

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Speaker 4: Place of understanding and compassion and like and you give

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Speaker 4: it to God ultimately that's what is supposed to happen.

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Speaker 4: And like, just hearing this back, it's like, wow, that's

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Speaker 4: not even in the word. Really, I don't know, Like

438
00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:31,320
Speaker 4: you said, wishing harm to people is not what we

439
00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:33,840
Speaker 4: should be hearing from spiritual figures.

440
00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:40,040
Speaker 3: When we return the conclusion of our conversation, this is

441
00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:41,400
Speaker 3: forgive me for I have followed.

442
00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:48,760
Speaker 4: Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. Here's

443
00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:54,040
Speaker 4: the conclusion of our conversation. So we do have a

444
00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:57,240
Speaker 4: couple more excerpts of his sermons that we want to share,

445
00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:02,520
Speaker 4: and this next one he talks about Kendra and Bentley

446
00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:04,920
Speaker 4: deal that she had and he also calls out a

447
00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:06,680
Speaker 4: former member of the church.

448
00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:09,480
Speaker 1: But as of two weeks ago, Okay, we're in a

449
00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:14,159
Speaker 1: place where God is moving upon our enemies, Amen, and

450
00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:16,280
Speaker 1: we shall see glory, and we are seeing glory being

451
00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:19,600
Speaker 1: manifested right now and the enemy's being stopped.

452
00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:21,400
Speaker 2: We're in a different.

453
00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:27,520
Speaker 1: Season now, Amen, We're in a season of glory right now,

454
00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:31,679
Speaker 1: and you're seeing his work coming before your eyes.

455
00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:38,920
Speaker 2: I mean, small thing. I'll mentioned small things, Miranda, and

456
00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:42,000
Speaker 2: that that his.

457
00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:46,960
Speaker 1: Ex wife was in social media talking about Dash apparently

458
00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:48,240
Speaker 1: apologize to you.

459
00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:52,359
Speaker 2: Right and allowing him.

460
00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:55,640
Speaker 1: To spend time with you know, Jaden and stuff like that,

461
00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:59,479
Speaker 1: and those things are just you know, small, but that's

462
00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:03,080
Speaker 1: not small. Miranda had a meeting with her parents and

463
00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:06,760
Speaker 1: Melanie the other day and then they got into an

464
00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:11,399
Speaker 1: argument about, you know, taking down posts about Instagram.

465
00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:15,840
Speaker 2: Live, and then you know they Melanie.

466
00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:19,800
Speaker 1: Refused to well, next day Instagram changed their algorithm and

467
00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:24,360
Speaker 1: their Instagram Live I think was taken down next day.

468
00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:26,440
Speaker 2: Next day they just changed the thing.

469
00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:28,600
Speaker 1: Still you can still find it, but you have to

470
00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:30,600
Speaker 1: scroll down and find it. But it's not in the

471
00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:38,200
Speaker 1: you know, Amen, Hallelujahliah, thank you Lord. And there's many

472
00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:41,680
Speaker 1: other things I don't want to mention because it's too controversial, Okay,

473
00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:43,560
Speaker 1: because I don't want people's oh passions said this. I

474
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:47,040
Speaker 1: don't want you know, amen, even with Nda, some of

475
00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:52,680
Speaker 1: you just may do this Hallelujah, thank you Lord. And

476
00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:55,320
Speaker 1: during the same time because the glory, I mean, you know,

477
00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:57,639
Speaker 1: it's been a while sin since I said this, but

478
00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:00,959
Speaker 1: you know, Kendra had to deal with bet you know,

479
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:07,159
Speaker 1: that was three months ago. It just disappeared, but Hannah

480
00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:09,680
Speaker 1: was able to revive it and now she's got a

481
00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:13,240
Speaker 1: Betley deal for twenty thousand dollars.

482
00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:17,240
Speaker 3: It's a lot to unpack there. But just going back

483
00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:21,560
Speaker 3: to Angela's episode, that was one of my favorite conversations

484
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:25,159
Speaker 3: that we had because she is such a strong woman

485
00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:28,600
Speaker 3: and a mother and at the end and everything that

486
00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:31,440
Speaker 3: she's gone through and whether it's like her own personal

487
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:35,639
Speaker 3: anger or frustrations in a situation like she's always thinking

488
00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:39,199
Speaker 3: about her kids and putting her kids first and leading

489
00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:42,800
Speaker 3: with love and showing that as an example, and she

490
00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:46,439
Speaker 3: did it on the podcast that her hope is that

491
00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:50,320
Speaker 3: their families can unite, and that included Miranda and James

492
00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:54,359
Speaker 3: into her life, and so yes, was Angela speaking out

493
00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:58,200
Speaker 3: at that time, Yes, But also you know, I think

494
00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:01,600
Speaker 3: she expressed that it came in these waves, like one

495
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:05,480
Speaker 3: second he's around, and then the next second James is gone,

496
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:08,240
Speaker 3: and it's taking a toll. It's taken a toll on

497
00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:13,920
Speaker 3: her family. But I think really just appreciating her vulnerability

498
00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:18,439
Speaker 3: and honesty and for Jaden's encouragement for Angela to speak

499
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:22,480
Speaker 3: with us and encouraging his mom to speak out. Yeah,

500
00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:26,560
Speaker 3: it's just a testament to the people that love those

501
00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:29,600
Speaker 3: that are still in Chicaina and a part of seven

502
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:32,720
Speaker 3: m and hoping that if it ever gets back to them,

503
00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:35,040
Speaker 3: that that this could be more of a platform for

504
00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:37,480
Speaker 3: them to understand that this is coming from a place

505
00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:40,480
Speaker 3: of love, not from anger and hate.

506
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:43,720
Speaker 4: Right. I'm also seeing, like from what he was saying,

507
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:46,000
Speaker 4: just a lot of kind of like floundering in a

508
00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:48,440
Speaker 4: way where he's trying to find like, oh, like, look

509
00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:52,840
Speaker 4: at how blessed we are because of Instagram changed their algorithm.

510
00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:54,560
Speaker 4: And you know, the video is not at the very

511
00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:55,959
Speaker 4: top of the page. You have to look for it,

512
00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:57,840
Speaker 4: and like because one of the big things that he

513
00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:01,280
Speaker 4: harps on is how like blessed that group is because

514
00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:03,640
Speaker 4: they have God's favor, And so I think like he's

515
00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:06,000
Speaker 4: trying to remind people, no, like, no, we still have

516
00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:07,720
Speaker 4: God's favor, So look at all of the.

517
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:09,960
Speaker 5: Small things that are really good and a big deal.

518
00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:13,000
Speaker 4: And then you know, ending it with like Kendra and

519
00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:15,560
Speaker 4: her Bentley deal and how much money she made from that, like.

520
00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:16,880
Speaker 5: See, we're still blessed.

521
00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:18,920
Speaker 4: We still have the favor of God because we're still

522
00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:21,679
Speaker 4: getting these things. And so it's like just trying to

523
00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:24,520
Speaker 4: look for ways to be like, don't listen to what

524
00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:27,240
Speaker 4: the other people are saying. We're still blessed, right, And

525
00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:29,359
Speaker 4: then you know, it also just reminds me of like

526
00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:31,840
Speaker 4: just that it's not worth it if it's money, if

527
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:35,320
Speaker 4: it's the feeling of connection, Like it's not worth what

528
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:37,520
Speaker 4: people are being put through, what families are being put

529
00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:40,680
Speaker 4: through your life that you can like.

530
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:42,000
Speaker 5: Live outside of it.

531
00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:44,959
Speaker 4: So I feel like if I had stayed there, the

532
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:48,080
Speaker 4: things that God really wanted me to do, I wouldn't

533
00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:50,680
Speaker 4: have done. And so I felt like it was taking

534
00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:53,800
Speaker 4: me off of my personal spiritual path and what like

535
00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:56,280
Speaker 4: God has really put in my life. And so just

536
00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:59,320
Speaker 4: hearing him say those things. I'm like, you know, it's

537
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:01,800
Speaker 4: it's not worth because you're actually giving up what God

538
00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:02,800
Speaker 4: really wants for you.

539
00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:06,719
Speaker 3: To kind of close out this episode, when we are

540
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:10,959
Speaker 3: listening to a previous sermon, Kalia, you mentioned extremes and

541
00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:14,880
Speaker 3: how in this group he uses extremes to justify certain things,

542
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:19,040
Speaker 3: and in this last sermon, it's a bit of that

543
00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:22,800
Speaker 3: and him straight up saying we are a cult and

544
00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:26,560
Speaker 3: trying to justify these extremes. So we'll listen to it

545
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:27,920
Speaker 3: and we can talk a little bit about it.

546
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:32,040
Speaker 1: You know, the world don't understand the process of sanctification.

547
00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:35,719
Speaker 2: They don't value it. They don't know what it is.

548
00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:38,760
Speaker 2: Process of holiness.

549
00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:43,160
Speaker 1: Okay, I know it, you know it.

550
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:45,040
Speaker 2: Okay.

551
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:49,000
Speaker 1: Part of the sanctification holiness is that you don't copy

552
00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:56,280
Speaker 1: the behaviors of the world, but the customer of this world. Okay, Amen,

553
00:29:57,720 --> 00:29:59,080
Speaker 1: So you know what to do that you have to

554
00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:00,600
Speaker 1: be so devoted, so committed.

555
00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:02,560
Speaker 2: Isn't it follow follow the word?

556
00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:05,480
Speaker 1: And the famous word comes up every time that comes up,

557
00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:07,720
Speaker 1: cult that church is cult.

558
00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:14,800
Speaker 2: Well, Jesus is a cult. Yes, Amen.

559
00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:22,480
Speaker 1: Anything that's devotional, anything that has excellent, anything that's.

560
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:23,520
Speaker 2: Worthwhile in the world.

561
00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:33,640
Speaker 1: They're all cult music, dancing, acting, sports, educational, high finance, politics. Okay, Well,

562
00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:39,920
Speaker 1: there's religious cults like Mormonism, Hindu, Buddhism, Scientology. They're all cults,

563
00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:45,000
Speaker 1: and so is christian Real Christianity is also a cult. Okay,

564
00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:47,680
Speaker 1: all right, But so you have to you have to

565
00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:52,120
Speaker 1: decide which cult you're going to be belonged to. Everybody

566
00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:57,200
Speaker 1: who is not a loser isn't a cult. Okay, only

567
00:30:57,240 --> 00:30:57,880
Speaker 1: the losers are.

568
00:30:58,000 --> 00:30:58,880
Speaker 2: They're not in cult.

569
00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:04,080
Speaker 1: Yes, the couch potatoes and they watch Netflix and they

570
00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:07,680
Speaker 1: got their popcorns or potato chips all the time, and

571
00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:09,200
Speaker 1: they collect the unemployment check.

572
00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:15,200
Speaker 2: They're not in cult, you know.

573
00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:19,160
Speaker 1: But everybody else who's like up and coming, they got ambition,

574
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:19,640
Speaker 1: they want to.

575
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:20,880
Speaker 2: Get on something with life.

576
00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:24,760
Speaker 1: They're on tour, they're working eight hours, ten hours and

577
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:26,800
Speaker 1: working at their craft, and they devoted to that.

578
00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:27,719
Speaker 2: They're in a cult.

579
00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:31,240
Speaker 3: So this kind of goes back to what I was

580
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:34,320
Speaker 3: saying earlier, where like to me, when I listened to this,

581
00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:39,000
Speaker 3: I feel like he's trying to justify what's being put

582
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:42,440
Speaker 3: out there. So social media blows up. There's all of

583
00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:45,280
Speaker 3: these articles and comments and all these things that are

584
00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:48,360
Speaker 3: being said about the group, and the word cult starts

585
00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:52,200
Speaker 3: to get thrown around a lot, and now he's trying

586
00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:54,840
Speaker 3: to use it as like a positive. He's trying to

587
00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:57,880
Speaker 3: flip the script for people to say, it's not a

588
00:31:57,920 --> 00:31:59,240
Speaker 3: bad thing to be in a cult.

589
00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:00,680
Speaker 5: Everybody a cult.

590
00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:03,480
Speaker 3: Everybody's in a cult unless you eat potato chips and

591
00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:06,560
Speaker 3: watch Netflix, which by the way, I do and I'm

592
00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:09,640
Speaker 3: not unemployed. But that's okay too, if that's where you're

593
00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:12,960
Speaker 3: at in your life. But I'm hearing it so clearly

594
00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:16,960
Speaker 3: as a manipulative tool to like flip the narrative to

595
00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:22,720
Speaker 3: work in his favor. And he's using again these extremes

596
00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:26,320
Speaker 3: to justify the statements that are being made about him

597
00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:29,240
Speaker 3: and about the church and about his members and followers.

598
00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:33,680
Speaker 4: It just makes me feel like he knows what he's doing, because,

599
00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:36,120
Speaker 4: like you said, it's kind of pacifying that, like, yeah,

600
00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:38,120
Speaker 4: they're saying in a cult, but like everyone's in a cult.

601
00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:38,680
Speaker 5: This is a cult.

602
00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:41,320
Speaker 4: That's a cult, And I think it's really important being

603
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:44,320
Speaker 4: able to discern the difference between what is a cult

604
00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:45,520
Speaker 4: and what is not a cult.

605
00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:47,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, again, I feel like he's trying to normalize the word.

606
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:50,520
Speaker 3: He's trying to make it seem okay. But then as

607
00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:52,600
Speaker 3: you get out of a group like that, you know,

608
00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:57,840
Speaker 3: in Amanda's episode, that process of trusting again, when you

609
00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:02,239
Speaker 3: are so willfully believeing what someone is saying and the

610
00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:05,160
Speaker 3: conversations that are being had, you have to learn to

611
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:09,719
Speaker 3: trust God again and separate Robert from actual Christianity. What

612
00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:12,760
Speaker 3: is the truth? And that whole deeprogramming process is its

613
00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:17,240
Speaker 3: own struggle for people, And so very much appreciate Amanda

614
00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:19,680
Speaker 3: sharing her experience of that.

615
00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:23,040
Speaker 4: I really do draw parallels from what Amanda was talking

616
00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:25,920
Speaker 4: about to like things that Kevin is experiencing, where like,

617
00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:28,080
Speaker 4: you know, I'm grateful that he's like, you know, I

618
00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:30,160
Speaker 4: still believe in God, I still trust God, but he

619
00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:32,600
Speaker 4: very much is like, but I don't trust the church.

620
00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:35,600
Speaker 5: I don't trust like people in a church. I don't

621
00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:36,720
Speaker 5: trust church buildings.

622
00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:39,280
Speaker 4: And it's like, especially because of all of the things

623
00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:42,320
Speaker 4: that has happened, like from the first church that Crump

624
00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:45,240
Speaker 4: was a part of the hospitality and then into Chicaina

625
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:47,880
Speaker 4: and seven m Kevin has said multiple there's no way

626
00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:50,719
Speaker 4: I'm stepping foot in another church building, And so it

627
00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:55,840
Speaker 4: gives like Christianity and religion a very bad name, because

628
00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:58,520
Speaker 4: there are people who are out there promoting and parading

629
00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:01,400
Speaker 4: as like real t true Christians, like we talked about

630
00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:04,360
Speaker 4: Robert mentioning like ch Kina is an extremist church, like

631
00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:07,360
Speaker 4: we are the real Christians. You know. That's where it

632
00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:11,520
Speaker 4: gets so like convoluted and like messy as far as

633
00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:12,240
Speaker 4: like being able.

634
00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:13,760
Speaker 5: To deprogram, like what was Robert?

635
00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:17,440
Speaker 4: And like this bad person versus what do I actually

636
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:19,520
Speaker 4: believe when it comes to my spiritual walk and my

637
00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:20,440
Speaker 4: spiritual journey?

638
00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:24,560
Speaker 3: Well, really want to think every single person that has

639
00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:28,759
Speaker 3: shared their story with us so far and been so

640
00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:32,840
Speaker 3: open and vulnerable and honest about their experience, and for

641
00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:36,120
Speaker 3: those that have experienced other high controlled groups that have

642
00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:38,600
Speaker 3: reached out to us, that have been in our dms

643
00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:42,920
Speaker 3: and have shared their experiences. We look forward to the

644
00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:47,640
Speaker 3: next chapter of creating this space for you all as well,

645
00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:53,319
Speaker 3: and learning about other groups and maybe finding a way

646
00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:57,320
Speaker 3: that we can find healing in this process and potential justice.

647
00:34:57,640 --> 00:35:00,880
Speaker 3: That's what we want to continue to do. Forgive me.

648
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:04,200
Speaker 4: I'm also looking forward to this next chapter because I

649
00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:06,759
Speaker 4: feel like it's going to help I think transmute a

650
00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:09,000
Speaker 4: lot of like the trauma that I've gone through and

651
00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:11,959
Speaker 4: like it reminds me that I was able to pull

652
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:14,160
Speaker 4: something out of it that is positive and that can

653
00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:17,920
Speaker 4: make a change, and not just people related to this group,

654
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:21,200
Speaker 4: but other groups that have gone through something similar and

655
00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:23,719
Speaker 4: that want to share their stories and deserve to share

656
00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:27,520
Speaker 4: their stories. And so I'm really looking forward to continue

657
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Speaker 4: to build this platform for those people.

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Speaker 5: And it really reminds me that.

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Speaker 4: It's okay, Like you did go through this, but it's okay,

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Speaker 4: and you can build something better out of it and

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Speaker 4: something that can make a positive impact on others.

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Speaker 3: Thank you, Alicia for sharing these sermons with everyone and

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Speaker 3: your countdown. And like we said previously, the Lee's sisters

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Speaker 3: are going to be starting their podcast, so do please

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Speaker 3: follow at seven m TikTok cult on Instagram for updates

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Speaker 3: and for when they drop their podcast.

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Speaker 4: Forgive Me For I Have Followed is a production from

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Speaker 4: WV Sound, Dirty Robert and iHeartMedia's Michael Tora podcast Network,

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Speaker 4: hosted by me Khalia Gray and me Jess Cossovetto. Forgive

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Speaker 4: Me For I Have Followed is produced by Aaron Burlson

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Speaker 4: and Sophie Spencer Zavos.

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Speaker 3: Our executive producers are Khalia Gray, myself Wulmar Balderama, Leo

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Speaker 3: Klam and Aaron Burlison at WV Sound.

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Speaker 4: This episode was edited by Sean Tracy and features original

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00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:39,600
Speaker 4: music by Madison Davenport and Halo Boy. For more podcasts

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00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:43,480
Speaker 4: from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

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Speaker 4: you listen to your favorite shows.

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Speaker 3: See you next week, See you next week,