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Speaker 1: and thanks Thinking Sideways. I don't understand you never know
Speaker 1: stories of things we simply don't know the answer too. Well.
Speaker 1: Hello there, welcome again to another episode of Thinking Sideways.
Speaker 1: I'm Joe, joined as always by my co hosts Devin
Speaker 1: and Steve. So you guys ready to talk about a mystery? Yeah? Sweet? Yeah, yes,
Speaker 1: we haven't done in a while. Yeah you like this
Speaker 1: one's got lots of it. It's been literally days, has
Speaker 1: been hasn't been a week now? Yeah? Okay, Well, so
Speaker 1: this week we haven't done a nice bloody one for
Speaker 1: a while, so you're gonna make us do a bloody one.
Speaker 1: We're going to talk about the Atlanta Ripper, uh serial
Speaker 1: killer in the early twentieth century that probably most of
Speaker 1: you have not heard about. I hadn't beforehand. I didn't
Speaker 1: hear about this until pretty recently. Actually, how did you
Speaker 1: hear about it? I don't remember. Look a like mysteries
Speaker 1: that will make you like poop your pants, probably something
Speaker 1: like that. I was doing some random googling, just looking
Speaker 1: for fund new mysteries, and I don't I don't remember
Speaker 1: to tell you the truth exactly where I stumbled across
Speaker 1: this one somewhere, but yeah, that was kind of interesting. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so the Atlanta Ripper, um, the Atlanta Ripper murdered a
Speaker 1: bunch of people, actually young women, uh in the year's
Speaker 1: nineteen ten. Some say through nineteen twelve. Others say through
Speaker 1: late nineteen eleven. He killed more people than Jack the Ripper,
Speaker 1: but Jack gets all the glory. Everybody knows who Jack
Speaker 1: the Ripper is. We did an episode on Jack the Ripper.
Speaker 1: We actually did. Yeah, it eventually got big enough to
Speaker 1: make the national news. The New York Times May twelfth,
Speaker 1: nineteen twelve said, quote Jack the Ripper and quote claimed
Speaker 1: his twentieth woman victim Atlanta sometime last night. The Blacks,
Speaker 1: who are in a state of terror and try to
Speaker 1: keep their women off the street at night, have offered
Speaker 1: a large reward for the arrest of the murderer. I
Speaker 1: didn't mention this. The Ripper only killed black women, so
Speaker 1: they called him Jack the Ripper, even in Atlanta, and
Speaker 1: they did. They did go and Jack the ripper. Yeah. Interesting, Yeah,
Speaker 1: and eventually got one that all this national attention started happening. Um, eventually,
Speaker 1: you know a lot of the city's leading leading commerce
Speaker 1: leaders and politicians and everything started pressuring the mayor, who
Speaker 1: started pressuring the police to actually get serious about this
Speaker 1: because apparently the Atlanta police, I mean, it's not like
Speaker 1: they didn't investigate, but you know, I kind of doubt
Speaker 1: they were working as hard as if it had been
Speaker 1: white women who have been getting killed. Probably gonna say,
Speaker 1: this is nineteen eleven. Yeah, it's a very racially segregated
Speaker 1: area and not even just nared just a time in
Speaker 1: this country, and so their priorities were very reflective of that. Well,
Speaker 1: not to like spark up political debate, I'm just gonna
Speaker 1: like one off say, even now in America, oftentimes crimes
Speaker 1: against minorities are not as investigated as crimes against white people.
Speaker 1: There is a different effort level. It does appear, sometimes
Speaker 1: not always, but the fact that that still remains as
Speaker 1: testament to how how incredible it must have been, you know,
Speaker 1: in the early ninets. I and I that also makes
Speaker 1: me want to point something out to our listeners, because
Speaker 1: I know that there are some quotes as we're going
Speaker 1: to go through this, and some of that stuff is
Speaker 1: very reflective at the times. So please, if we're we'll
Speaker 1: tell you when we're quoting something, but just be aware
Speaker 1: of that we're different us. Don't worry. Yeah, alright, here's
Speaker 1: what's known about the Ripper, at least if you go
Speaker 1: out and look up the Ripper on the web. He
Speaker 1: killed his victims every Saturday night like clockwork, and there
Speaker 1: he bashed him over the head, and then he would
Speaker 1: drag them into the book and cut their throats and
Speaker 1: then he would from yeah, from ear to ear, and
Speaker 1: then he would eviscerate and cut cutting out their lady parts. Like. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it was hard, right, because all of the articles from
Speaker 1: the time are very polite. Yeah, none of them ever
Speaker 1: say anything explicitly, So they say, you know, cutting out parts,
Speaker 1: and you're like, what does I don't know what that means.
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, Yeah, yeah, well, actually I think I know
Speaker 1: what I'm supposed to infer from that, but I don't know. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but you know, actually, it turns out the Atlanta Ripper
Speaker 1: didn't slice up on his victim and take organs out. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he just bashed them over the head with a rock
Speaker 1: or a brick and then would slit their throats. In
Speaker 1: one case, this is the last really confirmed victim, he
Speaker 1: did actually remove the victim's heart. Yeah, yeah, but it
Speaker 1: was the last case, right, probably the last case, so
Speaker 1: likely the highest escalation that we will have seen. Probably. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And we don't actually know how many women he killed.
Speaker 1: And besides that, one other thing that's not true is
Speaker 1: that killings actually did not happen on Saturdays most of
Speaker 1: the time. And actually it's it's really hard to say
Speaker 1: exactly when some of them did happen because in some
Speaker 1: cases the body was not actually found for a few days,
Speaker 1: and back in those days of the state of medical
Speaker 1: science was not such as it is today, you know,
Speaker 1: they really and even today it's kind of vague sometimes. Yeah,
Speaker 1: if a body has been sitting out for several days,
Speaker 1: it makes it a little more difficult to pin down
Speaker 1: an exact time of death, especially especially in a hot
Speaker 1: place like Atlanta pace. Yeah. Yeah, uh so we don't
Speaker 1: really know that all of them were killed on Saturdays. Again,
Speaker 1: we don't know how many women that the ripper murdered.
Speaker 1: What's the what's the there's a number here. I know
Speaker 1: that there's there's a range that are believed to be
Speaker 1: committed by the Atlanta Ripper. Yeah, if you talk to
Speaker 1: if you read the papers, there's something between nineteen and
Speaker 1: twenty one. Okay, because I remember being like hugely high
Speaker 1: and I was, how how have we not heard this? Yeah? Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's a lot more than Jack the Ripper. You know,
Speaker 1: of course Jack the Ripper was killing white people, so
Speaker 1: maybe that's why you know, it's still a well known thing.
Speaker 1: And also there actually is more documentation about Jack the
Speaker 1: Ripper than there is about this guy. That didn't really
Speaker 1: surprise me that much. Yes, yeah, so I guess our
Speaker 1: mystery here as well, Who was the Ripper? How many
Speaker 1: people did he really kill? And he actually even exist?
Speaker 1: Because at the time the killings were happening, this is
Speaker 1: between late nineteen ten and mid nineteen twelve, a lot
Speaker 1: of people in Atlanta didn't think there actually was a
Speaker 1: serial killer and all this head bashing and throat slashing
Speaker 1: was just random murders happening. Well, and there was a
Speaker 1: there was a number of cases that were attributed as
Speaker 1: being Ripper cases that it was really There was a
Speaker 1: lot of assumptions made to say that the m O
Speaker 1: was the same. Yeah, I think that I think that
Speaker 1: usually connected, is what I'm trying to say. Yeah, the press,
Speaker 1: I think the Atlanta press, I think started going back
Speaker 1: and adding sort of adding people in to really juice
Speaker 1: up the story. And a lot of a lot of
Speaker 1: these nineteen one victims were victims of gunshot wounds, uh
Speaker 1: and stuff like that, and so there was stabbings. There
Speaker 1: was stabbings, but not throat slidding and all that. So
Speaker 1: it doesn't necessarily mean it wasn't him. I mean, maybe
Speaker 1: you'd like to mix up his m O a little bit.
Speaker 1: I don't know. But at the same time, a big
Speaker 1: city like Atlanta, murders are going to happen anyway, even
Speaker 1: you don't even if you don't have a ripper on
Speaker 1: the loose. So anyway, I talked to a guy named
Speaker 1: Vance McLoughlin, retired professor of Criminal Justice, and he he
Speaker 1: wrote a paper on the ripper with Robert being the
Speaker 1: third And you guys have seen that paper, right, yeah,
Speaker 1: I guess, like, yeah, no, that was that study was
Speaker 1: actually really really well done. It was, yeah, it was.
Speaker 1: He's he's pretty thorough guy. But anyway, he and being
Speaker 1: looked at the nineteen victims and because they're one when
Speaker 1: we're referring to one the most. Most of the papers
Speaker 1: even think that the murders ended in mid nineteen twelve,
Speaker 1: but there are some people who claim that there was
Speaker 1: another murder in nineteen thirteen and another one in nineteen fourteen,
Speaker 1: So that's where generally believe those were just on. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so we're gonna start at the number nineteen. They went
Speaker 1: to all the information they went to like newspaper archives,
Speaker 1: looked at death certificates and all that, and they managed
Speaker 1: to remove all the eight from the list, although there's
Speaker 1: one of them. I'm questioning a little bit. I was.
Speaker 1: I was thinking I might add it back in, but
Speaker 1: I'm not really sure. It's got on defense about that
Speaker 1: it might be a copycat killing. In fact, there's probably
Speaker 1: a good good I was gonna say this, this case,
Speaker 1: because of the publicity, lended itself to have a lot
Speaker 1: of copycasts. But not at first. Well, I'm talking about
Speaker 1: it in the in the in the height of it,
Speaker 1: you know, from from midway on it was would have
Speaker 1: been such an easy situation for somebody to just do
Speaker 1: what they thought it was going to be, and it
Speaker 1: just gets lumped in. Yeah, but yeah, we've got And
Speaker 1: there was one person I'm going to talk about a
Speaker 1: little later on who actually had the clever idea to
Speaker 1: go murder arrival. She she she kind of got busted
Speaker 1: and didn't succeed in her crime. But I'll tell you
Speaker 1: about that. Yeah. Uh. Also getting back to Professor Mittal
Speaker 1: Offlin again. Um, he writes and researches about his story
Speaker 1: and obscure serial killers, and he's done a lot of
Speaker 1: research in the Atlanta Ripper, I think more than anybody really.
Speaker 1: I managed to track him down and I gave him
Speaker 1: a call, and mostly because I wanted to confirm myke
Speaker 1: my claim that the Ripper didn't mutilate his victims and
Speaker 1: the Saturday night thing too, and he and he did
Speaker 1: confirm that, Yeah, there was no mutilation and it wasn't
Speaker 1: like clockwork or anything like that. That sometimes there would
Speaker 1: be months in between killings, and there was a period
Speaker 1: in mid nineteen eleven where there was for about four
Speaker 1: murders came along about once a week. That's and that's
Speaker 1: where it's every Saturday Night I think came because it
Speaker 1: was about a week apart. Yeah. Anyway, Yeah, the Professor
Speaker 1: was a was a real nice guy. And we had
Speaker 1: a nice talk because we don't we both like to
Speaker 1: talk about murdering Mayhem. Yeah, he was friends and influencing people.
Speaker 1: I know, I know, I know. I he was like
Speaker 1: telling me about this this crime that some crimer or other.
Speaker 1: I can't remember even not what the crime was. It's
Speaker 1: not the Atlanta Ripper. And and then that reminded me
Speaker 1: of Jeremy Bamber. So I was like, I was like, hey,
Speaker 1: have you ever heard of Jeremy bamber case. He said, no,
Speaker 1: tell me about it, you know. So I told him
Speaker 1: about that. I think he's probably gonna check it out,
Speaker 1: that that's the juicy case. Yeah. Yeah, And we would
Speaker 1: just going that baton mysteries back and forth like that.
Speaker 1: But I also wanted to mention the professor's written two books.
Speaker 1: I told him he didn't ask you too, but I
Speaker 1: told him I would give him a plug for his book. So,
Speaker 1: oh yeah for the healthy gave Yeah, yeah yeah, and
Speaker 1: uh so as two books are about serial killers. One
Speaker 1: is called The Postcard Killer. He's about about a pedophile
Speaker 1: and serial killer named j. Frank Hickey Um and he
Speaker 1: was finally arrested in nineteen twelve died in prison in
Speaker 1: ninety two and why he didn't get strung up. It's
Speaker 1: kind of a mystery to me because the guy's crimes.
Speaker 1: I don't know if you've read about this guy. Yeah, yeah, yea.
Speaker 1: The criming got caught for is uh he lured a
Speaker 1: seven year old boy with promises of going to a
Speaker 1: candy store, took him to an outhoud. Is gonna be heinous, Oh,
Speaker 1: it's heinous. It's gonna gets more heinous. Well, he so
Speaker 1: he rapes a little boy, strangles him, stuff them down
Speaker 1: in the outhouse, and then eighteen days later, the chief
Speaker 1: of police in this town gets a postcard basically saying
Speaker 1: where you can find the body, and he sends he
Speaker 1: sends two cops around to check the outhouse. Oh, I
Speaker 1: forgot to mention. After he murdered the little boy, he
Speaker 1: went into the saloon and started drinking. That's palsy um.
Speaker 1: So anyway, the cops did not see the body down there.
Speaker 1: Apparently some other people who come along go figure eighteen
Speaker 1: days later and the body was covered with something. Yeah,
Speaker 1: body didn't get fine found until like a year later. Well,
Speaker 1: so many time the boys, the little boys still missing.
Speaker 1: His parents are of course, are quite anguished about it.
Speaker 1: He started sending postcards to to the parents, taunting them.
Speaker 1: It's a common sentiment with psychopaths. Yeah, well, actually there's
Speaker 1: I can't think of a single case where somebody has
Speaker 1: sent postcards to the family of their victims. There a
Speaker 1: number of things that I've read about where people have
Speaker 1: been sending stuff to the families. It's a terrible, terrible thing.
Speaker 1: I don't understand why he didn't get the death penal
Speaker 1: team that. Anyway. That book is The Postcard Killer, and
Speaker 1: the other book that he's written is called The Mail
Speaker 1: Order Serial Killer, and then about it's about a guy
Speaker 1: named Harry Powers who it is thought to have killed
Speaker 1: as many as fifty people. And he did get strung up.
Speaker 1: He was let's see when it was. I think it
Speaker 1: was caught in nineteen late nineteen one and put on trial,
Speaker 1: and he was strung up about six seven months later
Speaker 1: in early nine two. A fair and speedy trial. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they didn't waste a lot of time back in those days.
Speaker 1: Uh So, Anyways, enough of that. I haven't read the
Speaker 1: books yet. They get good reviews on Amazon, except for
Speaker 1: one guy is one guy who ordered The Postcard Killer.
Speaker 1: And there's another book out there called The post Killers
Speaker 1: by James Patterson. You know that guy who writes a
Speaker 1: lot of crime novels. Yeah, I guess, I guess he
Speaker 1: was wanting to get that book he actually done ordered
Speaker 1: The Postcard Killer. He ordered this one instead, and he
Speaker 1: posted a one star review because he was so he
Speaker 1: was because he got the wrong book because he ordered
Speaker 1: because it's like, yeah, this is a bone head. Yeah.
Speaker 1: The other reviews are five star reviews. Okay, yeah, yeah, anyway,
Speaker 1: I back back to our our Atlantic killings. H. McLoughlin
Speaker 1: and being took two of the victims off the list
Speaker 1: because they died of gunshot wounds. Yeah not really. One was.
Speaker 1: Their throat was slashed, but she was thrown into the
Speaker 1: river afterwards, and so that one I didn't match. It
Speaker 1: doesn't quite match. CMO was to bash him in the head,
Speaker 1: cut their drag him somewhere secluded, and then cut their throats.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, another victim and added her skull crush, but
Speaker 1: her throat was not slit. Another one was stabbed in
Speaker 1: the throat and um for those were eliminated because someone
Speaker 1: other than the ripper had been convicted for killing them.
Speaker 1: Two more were eliminated because they were probable suspects, and
Speaker 1: but one of them is the one that I was
Speaker 1: thinking maybe possibly should be on the list. But that
Speaker 1: could also be the copycat killing that I was talking about.
Speaker 1: So anyway, they neared a way down to a still
Speaker 1: still a pretty decent amount of people. It's still quite
Speaker 1: a number of people for one person say it's more
Speaker 1: than I plan on killing. I was just saying I
Speaker 1: haven't gotten a killing yet, not me neither. Yeah, despite
Speaker 1: all of your hard work, you know how hard it
Speaker 1: is to kill people from my office chair. It's really difficult.
Speaker 1: I don't lift a finger and they don't die, and
Speaker 1: it's really sith. Yeah, this is there's no working out.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, but the problem is is with with committing
Speaker 1: murders unless you go out and the totally randomly kill somebody,
Speaker 1: if you kill somebody because you're highly motivated to murder them,
Speaker 1: and that's kind of points a finger back at you. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so probably never gonna kill anybody. So I don't like blood.
Speaker 1: So I also mentioned, didn't mention this one person saw
Speaker 1: the ripper and lived to tell the tale. Yeah that
Speaker 1: was Emma Lou Sharp. She described him as a tall
Speaker 1: black man with broad shoulders, wearing a black suit and
Speaker 1: a wide brimmed hat. Uh. There was one other account
Speaker 1: that I read said another woman named Mary Adell had
Speaker 1: met the ripper. She left her employer's lists and went
Speaker 1: out in the alley and she saw a tall black man.
Speaker 1: I think this was right after the reports in the
Speaker 1: newspapers from Emily Lou Sharp seeing a tall black man.
Speaker 1: She goes out of the alley, sees a tall black
Speaker 1: man and runs back inside and tells her employer. He
Speaker 1: goes out and confronts the guy. The guy just left,
Speaker 1: but he had a gun. The the employer went out
Speaker 1: with a gun. Well, yeah, and just because he was
Speaker 1: tall and black doesn't really make him the ripper. When
Speaker 1: you see somebody run into the where I think he
Speaker 1: was in an alleyway, right, Yeah, run into the alleyway
Speaker 1: brandishing a firearm. I'm gonna leave. I'm gonna leave it
Speaker 1: as well. Yeah. So you know, Emma Lose the only
Speaker 1: one who saw him and lived to tell. But because
Speaker 1: she got attacked, she did get attacked. Yeah, she got
Speaker 1: stabbed in the stabbed in the back. Yeah. Yeah. So
Speaker 1: I'll talk about that in a minute here, just in
Speaker 1: in chronological order. We'll talk about the murders. First one
Speaker 1: was October three, nineteen ten. That was Maggie Brooks, Stage
Speaker 1: twenty three, walking home from work one night and somebody
Speaker 1: bashed her on the head and and slit her throughout.
Speaker 1: And then months later rose a Trice her body was
Speaker 1: found really close to her house, like about seventy five
Speaker 1: yards away. This is but three or two months later,
Speaker 1: So yeah, January nineteen eleven, two months Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'll tell you. Let's see, and I say, bore more
Speaker 1: like three and a half months, but you know whatever.
Speaker 1: Her husband was arrested for this. He was released for
Speaker 1: lack of evidence. Um and that it does fit the
Speaker 1: m O pretty well. Next up, Made seven, nineteen eleven,
Speaker 1: Mary Walker, age unknown. Her body was actually found in
Speaker 1: the rear of her home. She had left her job
Speaker 1: as a cook the previous night, and I'm guessing that
Speaker 1: the ripper followed her home. And people say, I'm not
Speaker 1: sure what these accounts mean, that she was actually in
Speaker 1: her home or in the yard behind her home. I'm
Speaker 1: not totally sure. Every time I read it, I got
Speaker 1: the impression that she was outside. Yeah, it never I
Speaker 1: never got the idea that the ripper was killing people
Speaker 1: inside of their home. Yeah, I don't think so. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't think. I don't think. I don't think so.
Speaker 1: I think it's a heck of a lot more work
Speaker 1: than he was up for. Yeah, I think so. Uh So. Anyway,
Speaker 1: still at this time, there's still months going by, but
Speaker 1: now it's sped up a little bit. Next one was
Speaker 1: June nineteen eleven, so you know a little over two
Speaker 1: weeks later. That was Addie Watts and she'd been hit
Speaker 1: with a brick instead of a rock and then dragged
Speaker 1: into the bushes and her throat was cut. Next up, June,
Speaker 1: only nine days later, Lizzie Watkins SMMO she was hit
Speaker 1: with a rock row cut. And then came Lena Sharp.
Speaker 1: That's Emma Lou Sharp's mother mother. Yeah. There are two
Speaker 1: versions of this. The version, the version you hear the
Speaker 1: most is that Lena had gone to the store and
Speaker 1: when she hadn't come back in about an hour, Emma
Speaker 1: Lou got worried and went looking for and went to
Speaker 1: the store and she hadn't been to the store. So
Speaker 1: she's walking back home. We're frantically worried about her mother.
Speaker 1: And this runs into this black guy, tall, black guy,
Speaker 1: broad shoulders and all that stuff, and and he said
Speaker 1: to her, how are you feeling tonight? And she said
Speaker 1: she was feeling fine, and she tried to walk past him,
Speaker 1: and he says, don't be afraid. I never hurt girls
Speaker 1: like you, and then stabbed her in the back and
Speaker 1: laugh was a great joke. Yeah, I don't think that's
Speaker 1: a joke at all. Yeah, it's sick. Yeah. Yeah. And
Speaker 1: and of course the body of her mother was found
Speaker 1: not too much longer after that. The second the second version,
Speaker 1: I forgot to mention, by the way, that first story
Speaker 1: was from the Atlantic Constitution, and there were several papers
Speaker 1: in Atlanta at the time. Yeah. Yeah, the ex version
Speaker 1: is from the Atlanta Journal. And this version of it,
Speaker 1: Lena and Emily were out walking and then he together, yeah, together,
Speaker 1: and he jumped out of the bushes. He hits Lena
Speaker 1: on the head with a brick, and then she's she's
Speaker 1: knocked unconscious. So he starts slashing at Emma lou who
Speaker 1: screams and runs but faints from blood loss because apparently
Speaker 1: he did connect a few times and then and then
Speaker 1: she ran off. The ripper cuts Lena's throat and then
Speaker 1: follows Emma lou She wakes up and finds him standing
Speaker 1: over her with a knife. But then the sounds of
Speaker 1: people running, footsteps and everything. People came running, and so
Speaker 1: he took off into the darkness. So one of two stories,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm inclined to believe the first one. The
Speaker 1: second one sounds like it's from a John Gresham novel.
Speaker 1: You know, it's just just it's just perfect. Oh that
Speaker 1: the high tension of it all, Like it just sounds
Speaker 1: like he is a reporter running off his little deal.
Speaker 1: I don't know, you don't think that him say don't worry,
Speaker 1: I never hurt girls like you, and then stabbing her
Speaker 1: in the back and laughing. That's not out of a
Speaker 1: John Grisham novel. Like that's not so you think that's
Speaker 1: more believable. I do, really dicer Manson saying that as
Speaker 1: he walked by you on the street. I mean, I
Speaker 1: just think this the second one sounds more like his
Speaker 1: m O. You know that he like passed her over
Speaker 1: the head and then was standing over her, and she
Speaker 1: happened to come to, but he never attacked a pair
Speaker 1: of all of the cases that of the that we
Speaker 1: there are, this this central core eight murders that are
Speaker 1: believed that he attributing they're always alone, so this is
Speaker 1: a real jump. She was alone too, You mean it's
Speaker 1: just single a night by themselves, one at a time,
Speaker 1: alone walking down the street. I don't know she was
Speaker 1: alone walking down the street. No, No, it was her
Speaker 1: and her mother walking together in the second version version, Yeah,
Speaker 1: which is the one you're saying that you find more plausible.
Speaker 1: But I don't know. I just I think the m
Speaker 1: O of that second one sounds more plausible. Well but
Speaker 1: but okay, so, but so why not keep in mind
Speaker 1: why not both keep in mind that Emma lou is
Speaker 1: the mother, correct, was the daughter? Okay, so it's Lena.
Speaker 1: Lena was hit in the head with a rock, and
Speaker 1: she did have her slow or her throat slit, and
Speaker 1: she was drug away from where it appears she was hit.
Speaker 1: So that's consistent with the m O, right, I think that. Yeah.
Speaker 1: The other thing about it is is I don't think
Speaker 1: he would have stuck around to slit Lena's throats. If
Speaker 1: Emma los running away there's a witness. Yeah, you gotta
Speaker 1: go catch her and bash her head in and then
Speaker 1: you're gonna do all the throat slit and part of that. Yeah.
Speaker 1: But anyway, after that, after Lena's or sees Me, after
Speaker 1: Emma Lose account hit the papers and everybody had heard
Speaker 1: of the description of the killer, we had our first
Speaker 1: confirmed attempt at a copycat killing. Yeah. Yeah, it's somebody
Speaker 1: named Katie Cochrane. Um. She wanted to murder her husband's girlfriend.
Speaker 1: Who doesn't Yeah, I know, I know. Her name was
Speaker 1: Maddie Alexander. So Mrs Cochrane was tall, so she figured
Speaker 1: she could pass herself off as a ripper. So she
Speaker 1: dressed herself up in a black suit and a wide brim,
Speaker 1: stets and hat and then over yeah, and then went
Speaker 1: over to Maddie's house with a straight razor. And by
Speaker 1: the way, you know, the whole thing about about him
Speaker 1: boring a black suit and the why white brim had
Speaker 1: he probably didn't necessarily wear the same costume every time,
Speaker 1: you know, all the one person saw him one time.
Speaker 1: I mean, he might have mixed up his boardrobe a
Speaker 1: little bit. So anyway, he goes over to Maddie's. It
Speaker 1: doesn't matter. Yeah, it doesn't matter. Okay, Now what I
Speaker 1: was just gonna say, Like in the early it's not
Speaker 1: as though people had like extensive wardrobes, clothes where it's
Speaker 1: not as though you had a closet full of clothes.
Speaker 1: You had different I mean there was a thing. There
Speaker 1: was such a thing as having different collar pieces. You
Speaker 1: were replaced the collar on your shirt because that was
Speaker 1: what would get dirty and sweaty. You would wear the
Speaker 1: same shirt, the same suit jacket, the same pants really
Speaker 1: as long as you could. So it's not reasonable to
Speaker 1: think that he might have had something the same or
Speaker 1: even very similar. That we're all interchangeable. Well, any other
Speaker 1: reason to wear dark clothes is that night blood doesn't
Speaker 1: show up on them. Well, they just don't show dirt
Speaker 1: as much. Yeah, probably just thinking about the blood in general,
Speaker 1: and then you want to wear red probably yead, I
Speaker 1: mean black is probably better blood and Deadpool obviously joke
Speaker 1: is coming from I have not seen Deadpool yet. I
Speaker 1: want to see it. I can tell you, as a
Speaker 1: lady who has to deal with blood on a fairy
Speaker 1: regular basis, black is the colors. Yeah, but we were
Speaker 1: talking about the confrontation between Katie Cochrane and Maddie Alexander.
Speaker 1: So he goes over to a house with a straight
Speaker 1: razor and her idea was to lure out of the
Speaker 1: house and then can kill her. Maddie answered the door,
Speaker 1: but not surprisingly, refused to leave her house because yeah,
Speaker 1: well because you know, it was out. It was out,
Speaker 1: it was out in the news. And maybe Katie cochrane
Speaker 1: shouldn't have telegraphed her intentions by dressing up like the Ripper. Yeah.
Speaker 1: She made also made the mistake of talking about this
Speaker 1: to a couple of women, one of whom ratting around. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I love that. You know what I think I'm gonna
Speaker 1: do tonight. I think I'm going to be the Atlanta Ripper. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna go murder somebody, kill somebody. I just
Speaker 1: don't like her very much. I'm gonna kill her. She's
Speaker 1: screwing around with my husband. I'm gonna go slit her through.
Speaker 1: So she got thirty days in jail for that one days. Well,
Speaker 1: I mean she didn't actually attempt the murder. She I
Speaker 1: mean she she kind of attempted the murder she was
Speaker 1: planning on. She didn't do anything. She didn't actually, you know,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of rulings that are around this case
Speaker 1: that are so twenty seven days in jail, what why?
Speaker 1: But today that would be a five year sentence. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there was some guy who was arrested and tried for
Speaker 1: next We're gonna talk about him in a second anyway,
Speaker 1: all right here he is, Yeah, nineteen July nineteen and
Speaker 1: right around the same time, a guy named Jim Murphy
Speaker 1: was put on trial. It wasn't it wasn't like the
Speaker 1: trial of the century because his his crime was threatening
Speaker 1: to cut his wife's throat. So it's a threat. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it was a threat. Apparently it was. It was motivated
Speaker 1: by jealousy, and so he wanted to cut a throat.
Speaker 1: And at trial somebody mentioned the possibility that Jim Murphy
Speaker 1: might actually be the ripper. Uh, this is one of
Speaker 1: the guys who was one of the doubters. A judge
Speaker 1: at the trial, again named and Are Broyles, said, and
Speaker 1: I'm quoting here, quote, there is no such thing in
Speaker 1: Atlanta as a negro jack the ripper unquote. And he
Speaker 1: didn't want on to say, quote there are at least
Speaker 1: one thousand negro men in Atlanta today who stand ready
Speaker 1: to cut the throats of their wives at the slightest provocation.
Speaker 1: I feel like you could like edit that to say
Speaker 1: there are at least ten thousand men in Atlanta today
Speaker 1: who stand ready to cut their throats of their wife. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean right, yeah, this guy's got Anyway, this guy
Speaker 1: was you know, didn't we say it wasn't that a
Speaker 1: quote that we had recently that was like the only
Speaker 1: thing that makes you a murderer's matrimony? That it was
Speaker 1: some months ago. There was something about that that sounds
Speaker 1: vaguely familiar. Yeah. So anyway, he was kind of a
Speaker 1: skeptic about this, uh, and appears a lot of the
Speaker 1: white population of Atlanta. I thought that this was just
Speaker 1: a case of black people doing what black people do, which,
Speaker 1: in their opinion, was just killing each other, which is
Speaker 1: kind of a shame. Yeah, it is. It is Julia Wallace.
Speaker 1: Julia Wallace from a similar time period. In fact, yes,
Speaker 1: that was right about that time now before nineteen fifty.
Speaker 1: That's all the same time period, right between eighteen fifty
Speaker 1: and nineteen fifty. Well, according to some people, that era
Speaker 1: in time was made up, So I don't know if
Speaker 1: it was that particular, It wasn't that. Yeah, that's a
Speaker 1: different episode. Yeah, we'll talk about that. That's kind of
Speaker 1: an interesting theory. Yeah, Anyway, most people thought this was
Speaker 1: most of the white population kind of thought it was
Speaker 1: a hoax. Time. No, I wouldn't even say most, but
Speaker 1: there was a substantial the people who maybe you wouldn't
Speaker 1: want to think it was a hoax, like judges and
Speaker 1: police officers and sheriffs and stuff. Well, if if not
Speaker 1: a hoax, it wasn't connected, so you know, it wasn't
Speaker 1: one guy doing at all. It just happened to be
Speaker 1: a bunch of murders that happened to look similar that
Speaker 1: we're not, according to the authorities, done by the same person. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you gotta like kind of like smiley face murders. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's like, yeah, I mean it's like it's it's entirely possible.
Speaker 1: I think it's unlikely, but it's entirely possible. If these
Speaker 1: were all just random murders, it could be. I doubted.
Speaker 1: Another theory that was out there was a local chriff
Speaker 1: named Plenty Minors actually said that the killings were probably
Speaker 1: jealous wives knocking off their husband's girlfriends. Just maybe he
Speaker 1: was inspired by Katie Cocker And I don't know. Uh,
Speaker 1: And of course we should remember it. Back in those days,
Speaker 1: the whole phrase serial killer had not yet been invented.
Speaker 1: And maybe some people just couldn't wrap them. It's around
Speaker 1: the idea that a single person would go around murdering
Speaker 1: random people. Well, it took serial killers who were quite
Speaker 1: prolific to be busted and have very concrete evidence brought
Speaker 1: forward before I think that people just would actually accept
Speaker 1: It's like, no, there's no way that that guy killed
Speaker 1: all those people and stuffed him in his basement and
Speaker 1: then they called them all out of his basement. They go, oh,
Speaker 1: that's weird. That's a weird thing. Maybe we should like
Speaker 1: investigate at some point, what did did this thing not
Speaker 1: exist before this time? Was it way less prevalent or
Speaker 1: was it just not the concept of a serial killer?
Speaker 1: Not the concept? Did people just you know, in like
Speaker 1: seventeen hundreds, did people were there not serial killers? Actually?
Speaker 1: I mean I would assume there had to have been,
Speaker 1: But were there not as many because there weren't as
Speaker 1: many people? Or like, that's an interesting question to me
Speaker 1: again for another episode. All there. I actually now that
Speaker 1: you imagined that. I heard a very interesting theory regarding that,
Speaker 1: and that is that serial killers have always been with us,
Speaker 1: and that is actually quite possibly the genesis of a
Speaker 1: lot of our monster tals, things like the werewolves and
Speaker 1: vampires and things like that. A lot of those superstitions
Speaker 1: might be from these weird killings that were happening, you know, thousands,
Speaker 1: thousands of years ago. People in the village was showing
Speaker 1: up and disemboweled and cut into pieces and stuff like that,
Speaker 1: and so people admitted monsters. So maybe it's it's an
Speaker 1: interesting theory, it is, and it's kind of hard to
Speaker 1: check out if it's true or not without getting in
Speaker 1: the way back machine. At this time, of course, in
Speaker 1: black in Atlanta, you can imagine black folks, uh mostly
Speaker 1: believed in the Ripper's existence because I mean, he was
Speaker 1: killing them. Yeah, it was a scary time. A lot
Speaker 1: of people started spending a whole lot more time at home,
Speaker 1: believe it or not, especially at night, which probably you know,
Speaker 1: escalated the killing because oh my god, I'm around my
Speaker 1: family all the time. Yeah, yeah know that feel yeah
Speaker 1: uh yeah. Anyway that they were Black women were afraid
Speaker 1: to be murdered and black men were afraid of getting
Speaker 1: arrested and accused of being the Ripper because especially after
Speaker 1: the after total climate yeah well yeah, definitely, and you know,
Speaker 1: after the started putting pressure on the police. You could
Speaker 1: see why how the cops might just decide to paint
Speaker 1: it on somebody, which they did. Yeah, a couple of times.
Speaker 1: They at least tried. They arrested some people for it.
Speaker 1: Let's go back to our victim list. So we're almost
Speaker 1: done with that. The next murder, number seven was on
Speaker 1: July tenth, nineteen eleven. That was Sadie Holly. Her body
Speaker 1: was found by some workmen. She'd been bashed in the
Speaker 1: head with a large stone which was found nearby, and
Speaker 1: that she was dragged off in her throat was cut
Speaker 1: and in this case, her shoes had been cut off
Speaker 1: her feet, which was kind of an interesting things. And
Speaker 1: that was not nor that was not indicative of I
Speaker 1: don't think so. Now, Okay, it's it's indicative. It's indicative
Speaker 1: of the weird psychology of a serial killer, right, but
Speaker 1: it's not something that we had seen in the Pritor
Speaker 1: six cases that we know of. Her shoes had been
Speaker 1: cut off her feet, her feet hadn't be correct. Yeah,
Speaker 1: my brain is yeah, I'm sorry, my brain interpreted that
Speaker 1: the wrong way. Yeah, her shoes were caught were her
Speaker 1: shoes found close to her body? Pretty close they were,
Speaker 1: but they were found. They were found, so it wasn't
Speaker 1: as though they were taken as a souvenir. No, No,
Speaker 1: they weren't. When the next murder I'm going to talk
Speaker 1: about this is the one that might be real or
Speaker 1: it might be a copycat. This is one of the
Speaker 1: ones that McLoughlin and being took off their list. But
Speaker 1: I'm gonna put it back on at least for a second.
Speaker 1: Here her her shoes were also removed. Uh. And other
Speaker 1: than that, it was the usual m O except for
Speaker 1: one of the things. This was many wise by the way,
Speaker 1: and her right index finger had been hackedocked off at
Speaker 1: the middle joint. Was a little change up in the
Speaker 1: m O. And I had no idea why that happened.
Speaker 1: There's no real earthly reason for it that I can
Speaker 1: think of, although maybe again just some escalation or it
Speaker 1: was a defensive maybe seen him coming and put up
Speaker 1: her hand and he took a swipe badder and happened
Speaker 1: to catch fingers what I had to have been a
Speaker 1: woll sharp knife cut through a fingerbone. Some of these,
Speaker 1: some of these attacks, they are the bodies are described
Speaker 1: as the heads nearly being taken off. Okay, but so
Speaker 1: like just in terms of like the physics of cutting
Speaker 1: a finger off. He would have to hit it perfectly.
Speaker 1: It would have had to been super sharp and super
Speaker 1: on target. I get the but I'm just saying that,
Speaker 1: you know, so like, but that's a different thing for me. Like,
Speaker 1: it's pretty easy if you're sorry for the morbidity of this,
Speaker 1: But if if a victim is laying, you know, on
Speaker 1: their back on the ground, it's not so hard to
Speaker 1: shove a sharp knife in and pull it across to
Speaker 1: almost sever ahead versus like in the air, my hands
Speaker 1: are up. I think he probably deliberately took it off.
Speaker 1: It would have to have been like she was laying there,
Speaker 1: and it's not so hard to just something off if
Speaker 1: it's against solid ground. That's why we use cutting boards.
Speaker 1: That's why we don't like cut carrots in the air.
Speaker 1: Point right. I've actually heard that apparently fingers are similar
Speaker 1: to carrots that you're talking about flavor or what in
Speaker 1: ease of cutting. Okay, that's what I would think they'd
Speaker 1: be tougher, because I would think that that would be
Speaker 1: the case, But apparently it's I mean, carrots, you know,
Speaker 1: like they really thick ones. They can be pretty hard
Speaker 1: to cut through suppose, Yeah, especially we will how you
Speaker 1: cut fingers off? Whoa okay after after the shows that
Speaker 1: we're done recording, or we're gonna rosembo and pick one
Speaker 1: person to be rooms all over again. Right, it's a
Speaker 1: lighter Yeah, I haven't seen that one. You don't know? Yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: what was it talking about? Many Wise? Yeah? Many Wise?
Speaker 1: Because the finger, I'm thinking she also had a husband.
Speaker 1: Do you have a husband? But I was sticking with
Speaker 1: a finger. I was sticking. I wonder if she had
Speaker 1: a ring on that finger, and it just didn't want
Speaker 1: to come off. But yeah, well, anyway, she her husband.
Speaker 1: His name was Bud Wise. I think it's a cool name. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I like that he was arrested. Apparently she was jealous
Speaker 1: of her. Apparently she was was jealous of he was
Speaker 1: jealous of her. Yeah, she was apparently sort of interested,
Speaker 1: I don't know, seriously or not in some other guy,
Speaker 1: and he had threatened to kill her, and the detectives
Speaker 1: in this case felt like he was just taking advantage
Speaker 1: of the whole Ripper thing to camouflogeist on murder and
Speaker 1: that it was, you know, actually a copycat murder. But
Speaker 1: which is something Joe thinks about a lot. Yeah, exactly,
Speaker 1: you know, you know, well, yeah, I mean aware if
Speaker 1: if a serial killer ever comes to light in Oregon,
Speaker 1: I'm going and hiding from Yeah, I know, I know
Speaker 1: exactly because my name. Time time to kill Devan and
Speaker 1: replace her with somebody else. Yeah, just hiding his gun closet.
Speaker 1: She doesn't have the combination. Yeah, and I come in here.
Speaker 1: You'll be safe. Yeah. And it's possible this is a
Speaker 1: copycat killing. As possible. A few of the other ones
Speaker 1: were copycat killings because this is a great time to
Speaker 1: go settle the score. You just want to be really
Speaker 1: careful not to get arrested. You know, you got to
Speaker 1: kill just one person and they all get picked on you,
Speaker 1: so that wouldn't be so good. And that's that's why
Speaker 1: so many people, I think, I feel like so many
Speaker 1: deaths were attributed to the Atlanta Ripper because people were like,
Speaker 1: somebody's out there killing women. I really hate that. Broad
Speaker 1: perfect opportunity and just you know, kill her in some
Speaker 1: fashion that you know it has something to do with
Speaker 1: cutting the neck, and then it gets lumped on like
Speaker 1: that's why I feel like the number was so was it?
Speaker 1: Eighteen was the nineteen or something. It was just ya,
Speaker 1: Can we just pause to say that that really upsets me?
Speaker 1: What's that? Just the fact that there are so many
Speaker 1: dudes out there in this like in that supposition, right,
Speaker 1: there's so many dudes out there in Atlanta who are like,
Speaker 1: I really hate this lady. I'm going a killer within
Speaker 1: like a year's two year span. But a lot of
Speaker 1: women out there thinking, what's her name? Who got in
Speaker 1: trouble for dressing? I'm sorry, let me amend that there
Speaker 1: are that many people out there like that's actually very
Speaker 1: upsetting to me. I am more comforted by the fact
Speaker 1: that it's one single psychopath who's just like killing people
Speaker 1: at will than it is that there are twenty or
Speaker 1: thirty people who are like, you know what, this person,
Speaker 1: I don't like them very much. There's a serial killer
Speaker 1: out there. I'm just gonna kill this person. Somebody else
Speaker 1: will get the credit. That's fine. I have no more
Speaker 1: a quandary with that at all. That is way more
Speaker 1: upsetting to me than a serial killer who might have
Speaker 1: killed twenty people. Way more upsetting. That's the thing. I guess.
Speaker 1: This is why I don't like people in rule as
Speaker 1: a rule. That's why my like I'm I'm much happier
Speaker 1: with the theories of like it was one person. It's fine. Yeah,
Speaker 1: well if it makes you feel any better though, as
Speaker 1: overall trend murders murder was going down, it's been going Yes,
Speaker 1: that does make me feel better. I have not yet
Speaker 1: been murdered that you haven't not yet, so that's good.
Speaker 1: So next victim, Yeah, what are we talking about? Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: we're our last victim, at least according to the professor.
Speaker 1: And I was writing partner Murder number eight, Mary Putnam.
Speaker 1: This is the one that was different. Her body was
Speaker 1: found in a ditch and it had been covered with
Speaker 1: some loose dirt and her heart to bury it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I wasn't a serious attempt. It's just like kicking dirt
Speaker 1: over it, I think, you know. Yeah, but any attempt
Speaker 1: to bury it shows some remorse, right, that's the typical Like,
Speaker 1: that's how people is that. I'm sorry. You guys are
Speaker 1: both looking at me like the brand new concept to you.
Speaker 1: I don't take that as remorse. I take that as
Speaker 1: I normally hide it in the bushes, and there's no bushes.
Speaker 1: How do I hide it so I can get away?
Speaker 1: So that's probably it was what it was. But this
Speaker 1: was different than that her heart was cut out. It
Speaker 1: was laying next to her. So yeah, that's a deviation. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and usually you don't see that kind of escalation at
Speaker 1: the very right the that kind of escalation continues usually
Speaker 1: unless that person is caught. That's the thing is that, like,
Speaker 1: as far as we know, the ripper wasn't caught. Again,
Speaker 1: it's just like the the British Jack the Ripper, just
Speaker 1: this is it. But I mean with the British the
Speaker 1: peak and then it just goes away. With the British
Speaker 1: Jack the Ripper. I feel like there was a natural
Speaker 1: peak of like that's about the worst thing you could
Speaker 1: do to a body, kind of again, we're okay, we're
Speaker 1: gonna go down the same rabbit holes and then it
Speaker 1: stopped right. But but I mean like that the thing
Speaker 1: for me is like, okay, so like if the escalation
Speaker 1: of the ever psychosis that's going on is this is
Speaker 1: literally the worst thing you could do to the body.
Speaker 1: The worst thing you could do to body is like
Speaker 1: kind of cut a heart out and leave it next
Speaker 1: to it. Like that's not true. There's so much more
Speaker 1: so you would I for me, as a total armchair
Speaker 1: person who I guess has a couple of years of
Speaker 1: experience of reading about cases like this. At this point,
Speaker 1: I would expect that if this person were free, that
Speaker 1: that there would be that escalation, unless we're going to
Speaker 1: go to Joe's de facto explanation of there was one
Speaker 1: person in the mix that was the intended target and
Speaker 1: everybody else was just like to cover up the rest
Speaker 1: of it. Yeah, there is always that, I think though,
Speaker 1: if there that this had been somebody just wanted to
Speaker 1: kill one person. Non't need to kill eight people or
Speaker 1: nine or whatever. K. Yeah, So can we go back
Speaker 1: and re record the Jackie the Ripper episode because they
Speaker 1: feel like that was the argument with Jackie? Right? And
Speaker 1: I mean, am I crazy that? Like? Did you not
Speaker 1: make that argument there? Yeah? Well, that that's the thing
Speaker 1: about it. You know, jack the Ripper murdered five women.
Speaker 1: No need to murder five women. Just the question is
Speaker 1: is like, is like up to the point he started
Speaker 1: murdering them, why wasn't he murdering them before? And why
Speaker 1: wasn't he murdering them afterwards? You know? Why? Yeah? Well,
Speaker 1: I mean I think that the general assumption is that
Speaker 1: you read about people who are serial killers who have
Speaker 1: been caught and their parents are people who are close
Speaker 1: to them say yeah, they were like it was weird.
Speaker 1: They were mulated squirrels all over the place, or like
Speaker 1: he beat the dog up and then suddenly he was
Speaker 1: big enough to take it into human realm and then
Speaker 1: he was caught, or the escalation finished, or he moved
Speaker 1: out of that area, yeah or she? I mean, serial
Speaker 1: killers are by a large male, but there are some females,
Speaker 1: So I just default to the male pronoun. I apologize.
Speaker 1: Most murders are I apologized all of the female serial
Speaker 1: killers out there who were like, hey, what about me?
Speaker 1: I apologize that's last name. I mean, yeah, that's true. No,
Speaker 1: I mean that's but that's that's the general slope of escalation.
Speaker 1: What are you going to call that? The general something
Speaker 1: of escalation, general path of escalation. Maybe that's the word
Speaker 1: I'm looking so, yeah, I mean, well there wasn't there
Speaker 1: was some escalation here. I mean he cut off a
Speaker 1: finger and the victim number section and then the heart,
Speaker 1: the heart. That's that's a big jump I have to jump. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And then if he did stop, why because out of
Speaker 1: the yeah, he moved, he moved out of town. Maybe.
Speaker 1: I mean by this time, it was kind of late
Speaker 1: nineteen eleven and the police were really serious about it
Speaker 1: and everybody was on edge. Maybe he just set the
Speaker 1: decided to just move on. You know, it's hard to say,
Speaker 1: you know what England man, well, you know what tooth
Speaker 1: that life was more dangerous back then. Maybe somebody murdered him. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, you don't know work environment. Yeah yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean we didn't have antibiotics back in those so yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean it's really easy to get done in by
Speaker 1: just an internal infection. Yeah, yeah, yeah. According to the papers,
Speaker 1: the killings resumed in nineteen twelve, and they were five
Speaker 1: maybe ripper murders that year, and then it ended. I
Speaker 1: did come across one source you claimed that there was
Speaker 1: another one as I mentioned before, in nineteen thirteen, and
Speaker 1: another in nineteen fourteen. This is a guy I don't
Speaker 1: take very seriously because he's one of the people that
Speaker 1: makes the claim that the the Ripper mutilated his victims,
Speaker 1: and as we know, that's not true, and it's based
Speaker 1: on the death certificates that were looked up talking about
Speaker 1: specifically what was done to the body. Yeahs Professor Moriarty. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Professor McLaughlin. Uh. He said that they almost just about
Speaker 1: in all cases got ahold of the death certificates. And
Speaker 1: so do we believe those five in nineteen twelve? I
Speaker 1: don't think so. So these got the five in nineteen twelve.
Speaker 1: I mean, let me think here, three of them, three
Speaker 1: of them were eliminated because somebody was arrested and convicted
Speaker 1: for their murders. Yeah, and then the other two another
Speaker 1: one with one of them was stabbed and another one
Speaker 1: that d m O was different. So it's really just
Speaker 1: the media sensationalizing these Yeah, I mean, I mean once
Speaker 1: they had this whole, this whole state of killings. You know,
Speaker 1: obviously these weatheren are showing up dead. Obviously the person
Speaker 1: in your conclusion you're going to jump to is that
Speaker 1: the horrible thing that happened to you? And this this
Speaker 1: guy too, this guy is I don't know if you
Speaker 1: watched any of that video? Is the link to the
Speaker 1: really awful one? Did you want? You? In fact, advised
Speaker 1: me to not watch it. I did after watching a
Speaker 1: little bit of it, but then I said, if you
Speaker 1: were a call, I told you should watch at least
Speaker 1: a few minutes like I did. Watch a few minutes
Speaker 1: just to find out how bad that is. Was it
Speaker 1: bad or what? Yeah, I mean it was not good. Now,
Speaker 1: it's hard. There's so many Sometimes I am tempted to say, Steve,
Speaker 1: let's post the link to this thing so that people
Speaker 1: can understand the hardships that we face when we research
Speaker 1: our episode. Yeah, because I can't do that now. This one,
Speaker 1: this one was an hour and a half long interview,
Speaker 1: and I suffered through about an hour of it. Right. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's like her so her on video facing the camp round,
Speaker 1: then a picture of the guy, but he was mostly talking,
Speaker 1: and so she was kind of bored the whole time. Yeah,
Speaker 1: she would be looking around or just making weird expressions.
Speaker 1: She also was thick, Yeah, and she was had running
Speaker 1: eyes and yeah, watering eyes. But no, I mean so
Speaker 1: that that guy that she was interviewing, uh, claimed to
Speaker 1: be an expert on this and he said another thing, Yeah,
Speaker 1: and he said he also said that black serial killers
Speaker 1: are extremely rare and that all serial killers are almost
Speaker 1: all of them are white, which that's offensive. Well, let's
Speaker 1: complete bonk. I mean, actually, the serial killers are are
Speaker 1: very well distributed among the races. I was gonna say,
Speaker 1: I'm just I'm sorry, I'm staring, and I know that
Speaker 1: you're both looking at like I'm a weirdo, because I'm
Speaker 1: just baffled by that it is. It is not attributed
Speaker 1: to any race, and while it is to one gender
Speaker 1: more than another, it's it's a distributed Oh yeah, that's
Speaker 1: I mean in America, obviously it's a majority white country,
Speaker 1: so obviously the majority of sailor killers are gonna be white.
Speaker 1: But but personally, personally percentage maybe accurately, yeah, as as
Speaker 1: a percentage of the population that it's demographic same, about
Speaker 1: the same percentage of each it's going to be roughly
Speaker 1: the same. When you're talking about you know, crazy people
Speaker 1: transcend everything, Yeah, pretty much. Yeah, yeah, you know, it
Speaker 1: could be that one particular race. I doubt it is
Speaker 1: more susceptible to this kind of stuff, but I don't
Speaker 1: think so. I really kind of doubt that because we
Speaker 1: hear about this all over the world. Oh yeah, oh yeah,
Speaker 1: it does happen everywhere. You just take different forms. I
Speaker 1: mean sometimes, right, you are are extra smart, and so
Speaker 1: you figure out how to say, like, oh, I'm a
Speaker 1: witch doctor, so it's okay that I'm murdering all these
Speaker 1: people right, or oh hey I'm a savior, so it's
Speaker 1: okay that I'm murdering all these people, or oh hey
Speaker 1: I'm the king. You know, it's it just goes on
Speaker 1: and on, but you find them everywhere. Yeah, pretty much theories.
Speaker 1: Yet we're gonna we're gonna start theories. Yeah. Now, we
Speaker 1: usually get to the theories a lot sooner than this
Speaker 1: theory is gonna be short. Actually, so our theories are one,
Speaker 1: the Ripper did not exist? Well, I do the way
Speaker 1: this means that every one of these was every unique
Speaker 1: murder was by a unique perpetration, and it just happened
Speaker 1: to be that some of them shared some similarities. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think it's fair to say that it's possible that
Speaker 1: not every murder attributed to the Ripper was done by him.
Speaker 1: But but I do think especially in middle two thousand
Speaker 1: or nineteen eleven, mid nineteen eleven, do yeah, yeah, I
Speaker 1: do lanswer Ripper had a time machine. What do you got?
Speaker 1: But what do you guys think? Do you do buy
Speaker 1: into the whole Ripper didn't exist things? Yeah? So our
Speaker 1: next theory is that this put forth by a plenty
Speaker 1: of minors. The sheriff that was black, wives, murdering their
Speaker 1: husband's girlfriends. Please. Yeah, well, I know that there's a
Speaker 1: lot of wives who would like that to be the case.
Speaker 1: I don't think that's I also don't think they are that.
Speaker 1: I don't think that that it's that rampant right that
Speaker 1: husbands kind friends. Yeah. So there's the thing. A lot
Speaker 1: of dudes like to think that they are cool enough
Speaker 1: and hot enough and suave enough to get a girlfriend.
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, we're all fat and ugly. The one we
Speaker 1: got lucky with, the one that one now nine percent
Speaker 1: of men can't manage to get to handle to it one.
Speaker 1: It's not it's it's it really is hard to keep
Speaker 1: all your lives straight and everything. But really, yeah, so
Speaker 1: it's better and better just to keep it simple, you know,
Speaker 1: it really is. So so what's our next one? Well,
Speaker 1: our next series is that the Ripper did exist. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think he most likely did. Uh. For one thing,
Speaker 1: throat cutting I think is not a really it's not
Speaker 1: a really typical murder method. It's not. It's also fairly gruesome.
Speaker 1: We're saying, if we were going to go with the
Speaker 1: Ripper was just a bunch of black lives murdering husband's girlfriends. Like,
Speaker 1: that's an intense way to do it. It's also not well,
Speaker 1: I guess bashing someone over the head hard enough to
Speaker 1: knock them out, that sars a significant amount of physical stress.
Speaker 1: And then on top of that, the will or guile
Speaker 1: even to split someone ear to ear intense, you guys,
Speaker 1: that's really yeah. I think that most people that get
Speaker 1: killed with knives are usually stabbed. Yes, So I would say,
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, once, right, you do the one
Speaker 1: and you're like, oh god, that was right, But I
Speaker 1: don't have to do it again. I don't have to,
Speaker 1: you know, drag that knife anywhere. So I would say,
Speaker 1: it's one person who And here's a great the thing
Speaker 1: about stabbing them is that if if you stabb somebody,
Speaker 1: if you're strong enough and accurate enough that you can
Speaker 1: hit it, hit a vital organ and just you just
Speaker 1: walk away, pull a knife out, and there's not going
Speaker 1: to be that much blood, nothing, nothing at all compared
Speaker 1: to the kind of blood you're gonna get on you
Speaker 1: when you cut somebody's throats. So that's right, you yeah,
Speaker 1: when you like, especially when you split the jugular, yeah,
Speaker 1: spread all over the place. Yeah, I know. And of
Speaker 1: course there's always you know, there's always I think if
Speaker 1: this was random people, I think it would be more
Speaker 1: stabbings and shootings and nuts throw cuttings. So I think
Speaker 1: this was truly a serial killer with pop the majority.
Speaker 1: There were some outliers, possibly a copycat in there. But yeah,
Speaker 1: so who was nobody knows. Yeah, nobody knows that where
Speaker 1: some guys arrested. There were suspects, right, there were six guys.
Speaker 1: Thought I saw the names of like five, but they
Speaker 1: always say there were six people. Yeah, well, and that's that,
Speaker 1: that's if you count there were a couple of other
Speaker 1: people who were arrested for individual murders. People that were
Speaker 1: that were counted in, they were lumped in with those
Speaker 1: guys and so yeah, so, but but I came across four.
Speaker 1: So there's Todd Henderson. Then he was arrested, but he
Speaker 1: was he was actually in custody when several murders happened
Speaker 1: the whole either that, yeah, either that he has some
Speaker 1: really good friends on the outside that went out and
Speaker 1: murdered people just to give him a good alibi. I
Speaker 1: doubt it. Yeah, I kind of doubt that. Another guy
Speaker 1: was Henry Huff who was He was arrested for the
Speaker 1: murder of City Holly. But again it appears that one
Speaker 1: more murder happened while he was in custody, and so
Speaker 1: he was also acquitted. Me. Yeah, they were both trying
Speaker 1: and to quitted. Uh. Next up was Henry Brown. He
Speaker 1: was put on trial for the killings, but it turns
Speaker 1: out the Atlanta police had beating a confession out of him.
Speaker 1: He was acquitted. Yeah, yeah, so yeah, so that it's doubtful.
Speaker 1: And then he said, yeah they figured out once they
Speaker 1: figured out that the police had done that, it was
Speaker 1: because he was willing to say anything. Basically, Um, you
Speaker 1: want me to say, I have wings. I have wings
Speaker 1: and I flew from the top of a building and
Speaker 1: I got him. Yeah, yeah, is that what you want? Okay, great, no,
Speaker 1: no flinching, don't come near me. That that's House of Yearly.
Speaker 1: They beat this guy. To be honest with you, I
Speaker 1: don't think I would have to get beat that hard
Speaker 1: to be in that mindset, you know, with a night stick,
Speaker 1: I'd be like, yes, I will say literally whatever you want.
Speaker 1: Yes I am I'm Russian. But yeah, yeah, never reminds
Speaker 1: me of a joke. But I'll tell you guys later. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: who else Charlie Owens was considered, but he was arrested
Speaker 1: for the murder of his wife, A Lacey Owens and
Speaker 1: nineteen twelve, and I think this was after the murders stopped.
Speaker 1: He was sentenced to life. I'm just not seeing him
Speaker 1: as a suspect because he just had a good motive
Speaker 1: for murdering his wife. Yeah, and not necessarily murdering people
Speaker 1: that he doesn't know. That's a weird way to work
Speaker 1: up to killing your own wife practice maybe, yeah, I guess, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I have a wife. You have a wife. You tell
Speaker 1: me I've been practicing killing her for a while, and yeah,
Speaker 1: she's going to kill you first, know you. Yeah, you
Speaker 1: don't know Steve's wife as well as I do, but
Speaker 1: she's a lot more intense than he is. Yeah, I've
Speaker 1: met her, Yeah, I have met I've met the Mrs Steve. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Now that's it for our suspects. Were It's just about
Speaker 1: certain we're never going to find out who the ripper was.
Speaker 1: I do believe he existed. The only chance is if
Speaker 1: somebody stumbles across their great great uncle's journal maybe and
Speaker 1: some whole family papers. Chances are good that if somebody
Speaker 1: stumbles across that, they're not gonna probably want to share it.
Speaker 1: I gotta be honest, I wouldn't. I don't know. I'd
Speaker 1: be highly tempted myself. But there's not that much money
Speaker 1: in it though, that's true. But yeah, people think, oh wow,
Speaker 1: I've got this great sensational story and one place offers
Speaker 1: you a little bit of cash. It's gonna be a
Speaker 1: cash cown trying to tell the world, and the world
Speaker 1: doesn't care well exactly it. If you came across the
Speaker 1: same thing for after ripper, that's a different story. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, like even for me though,
Speaker 1: it's it's you know, it's one thing if the cases
Speaker 1: involved are like missing people. If you find a diary
Speaker 1: of your great uncle who says I murdered all of
Speaker 1: these missing kids and the bodies, that's a matter of
Speaker 1: closure for those families, these families, right, These families all
Speaker 1: know their family members were murdered for what reason who knows?
Speaker 1: And by who? Who knows. But I don't think these families,
Speaker 1: I don't get the sense that these families are searching
Speaker 1: for some kind of like grandiose closure, right, so that
Speaker 1: like what what what good does it do? At that point. Well,
Speaker 1: you know, frankly, it's subsidy. It's like us from talking
Speaker 1: about it. Yeah, it's probably a pointless discussion. Realistically, they're
Speaker 1: not that many idiots like us talking about this, though
Speaker 1: according to the Internet there is there's a lot of them. Well,
Speaker 1: I think it's academic because it's very unlikely anybody's going
Speaker 1: to come across anything. So come across that old, that
Speaker 1: old journal of your great uncles and you read the
Speaker 1: three pages of it and you said you're a great
Speaker 1: uncle was a boring guy, and you stopped reading it,
Speaker 1: and that's that. And so I don't think it's gonna happen.
Speaker 1: We'll never know unless one day we go back in
Speaker 1: the way back machine. We will, Yeah, because I know
Speaker 1: the thing about it is I know the dates of
Speaker 1: the murders, and I know the addresses. Yeah, we've got intersections,
Speaker 1: and we are white people. Yeah, it would be very
Speaker 1: easy lend right in. Yeah. Yeah, so so much for
Speaker 1: the Atlanta River. But anyway, folks, now, now you know
Speaker 1: a little bit more about one more serial killer than
Speaker 1: you ever heard of. Yeah, it's perfect. That's why you
Speaker 1: listen to us, Right, You shouldn't leave your house because
Speaker 1: they're everywhere. Just stay inside and listen to us from home.
Speaker 1: Don't even work from home. No, there will be no
Speaker 1: working from home. Just shut yourself in the basement, build
Speaker 1: yourself a little bunker that you can live in, sell
Speaker 1: the house to other people, live in your bunker in
Speaker 1: your basement. It sounds good, right, perfect? Yeah, you guys
Speaker 1: have any more theories? Yeah? Yeah, okay, well let me
Speaker 1: let me hand out a few useful factoids here. You
Speaker 1: probably want to like know what our website as well.
Speaker 1: Our website is thinking Sideways podcast dot com, where you
Speaker 1: can download episodes, you can leave comments, check our links
Speaker 1: because we always post links to the various resources for
Speaker 1: these mysteries. And of course you're probably listening to us
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Speaker 1: you can subscribe to us there and also leave us
Speaker 1: a review, a good review, preferably, And you can stream
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Speaker 1: Yeah exactly. Yeah. And if you can't stream us, fro
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Speaker 1: us there. We just want to tell us how awesome
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Speaker 1: good place, you know. Uh. I guess I'm just gonna
Speaker 1: go ahead and say again, uh, leaving us a comment
Speaker 1: on like iTunes of like why you don't like the
Speaker 1: show or like the sound quality is bad? Don't Those
Speaker 1: are all email at well. The problem is a lot
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Speaker 1: that in the last six months. It's in the back catalog,
Speaker 1: and usually it's folks who have listened to one episode
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Speaker 1: our email account, we're a lot more likely to see it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know. I patrol those other ones pretty heavily. Yeah. Well,
Speaker 1: I mean there's nothing you can do on things like iTunes.
Speaker 1: That's what you're getting. That's what we can't say anything
Speaker 1: when iTunes is iTunes and we're done. But if you
Speaker 1: genuinely don't like us, leave us about a review on
Speaker 1: iTunes on I prefer you go to the Humpington Post
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Speaker 1: But yeah, whatever, if you have to do that, I guess, uh,
Speaker 1: we have a subreddit, so go check out the subreddit.
Speaker 1: I'm not sure. I haven't. I haven't looked at it
Speaker 1: for a while. Is anything going on out there? It's great? Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's cool. Okay. Oh and last of all, this is
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Speaker 1: the merchandise. Got cool merchandise. Yeah, and so yeah, that's
Speaker 1: a little through the right hand panel on the website. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: right on. Anyway, that's about it from here. Um uh,
Speaker 1: you guys have any more thoughts about the line ripper
Speaker 1: or anything else? Yeah, I just don't. Yeah, I think
Speaker 1: he's dead by now. Probably doesn't. Yeah, You're logic's quite sounding.
Speaker 1: I love you. Put it another way as sure as hell.
Speaker 1: Hope he's dead. Yeah yeah, okay. Anyway, so for this week,
Speaker 1: I'm signing off to lu by guys by