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Speaker 1: I don't just I'm you never know stories of things
Speaker 1: we simply don't know the answer too. Hey, it's up.
Speaker 1: It's a Thinking Sideways the podcast. I'm Devin, joined as usual,
Speaker 1: I guess by Joe and Steve. Yeah, we're sure, um,
Speaker 1: and this week I'm kind of breaking the rules a
Speaker 1: little bit. If you're an avid listener or like you've
Speaker 1: been in discussions with us on like Reddit or email,
Speaker 1: we say this a lot too. We try to not
Speaker 1: do mysteries that are like anything under five years old.
Speaker 1: We try not to do with a few exceptions. I think, um,
Speaker 1: the Alisa Lamb one and they seventy and I think
Speaker 1: those are the only two that we've done so far.
Speaker 1: I think that's right. Um, I don't know. We have
Speaker 1: a lot of episodes. I don't know, so I did
Speaker 1: not go through every single one, but I'm pretty sure
Speaker 1: it's just been those two. But this mystery, it was
Speaker 1: too good to pass up, um, and it was one
Speaker 1: that I literally just learned about within the last week.
Speaker 1: And we're going to talk about it. Where did you
Speaker 1: learn about it? Um? In internet? Uh So it's we're
Speaker 1: going to talk about the disappearance quote unquote disappearance of
Speaker 1: Lasanne Froun and Chris Creamer's Creamers. It's their Dutch names,
Speaker 1: so it's hard not gredation there. It is Lisianne and Chris,
Speaker 1: so I'm going to call them by their first names.
Speaker 1: They are twenty two and twenty one years old, respectively,
Speaker 1: and they are young women from the Netherlands. There Dutch.
Speaker 1: They had saved up for about six months to travel
Speaker 1: from the Netherlands to Panama to spend a couple of
Speaker 1: months there. They traveled like kind of did tourist stuff
Speaker 1: for a couple of weeks, and then their plan was
Speaker 1: to go to this small town and kind of the
Speaker 1: like northern kind of almost the northern border actually of
Speaker 1: Panama and uh teach for a couple of weeks. Do
Speaker 1: we know what they were teaching? Okay? I I didn't
Speaker 1: Maybe English, maybe Spanish, I can't remember. It was a
Speaker 1: language I think of some maybe Dutch, probably not, but maybe.
Speaker 1: I mean it seems like the you know used for
Speaker 1: Dutch in Panama and kind of like, you know in
Speaker 1: rural Panama. Yeah. I was gonna say, if this was
Speaker 1: you know, along the ports or something, it would totally
Speaker 1: makes sense. But if you're a rural area, that doesn't
Speaker 1: make a whole lot of sense. But hard saying. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So they traveled to this small town called Bookheat. Is
Speaker 1: that how you would say that? I believe, Yeah, I don't.
Speaker 1: I have no idea either. They were going to stay
Speaker 1: with a host family, which is the way that a
Speaker 1: lot of young travelers do. That they settled in, they
Speaker 1: went to check in to like work. They're like, we're here,
Speaker 1: ready to work. It's I think Sunday or who knows
Speaker 1: what day it is, I don't remember, but we're gonna
Speaker 1: we're gonna start working. And the person who ran that school,
Speaker 1: who's an American woman, said, oh, no, you can't work
Speaker 1: until next week. You have a week to kill. They
Speaker 1: had an entire week. Yeah, okay, I thought less than
Speaker 1: time than that, I'll go play to Arista for a
Speaker 1: while longer. Yeah. So it turns out actually lists Anne
Speaker 1: was like very upset about that. She even reportedly wrote
Speaker 1: in her diary about how mad she was that they
Speaker 1: couldn't start teaching. I don't know if that was, you know,
Speaker 1: she just wanted to get on with it. If she
Speaker 1: was annoyed that the I guess maybe some communication had
Speaker 1: gone awry. I don't know why she was so so
Speaker 1: mad about it. Maybe she had mapped at her trip
Speaker 1: very carefully. Maybe she wanted to do maybe she was
Speaker 1: a planner like that. Yeah, well, anyways, it meant, you know,
Speaker 1: this area is very jungle filled. It's like very close
Speaker 1: to the continental divide, and so it meant they had
Speaker 1: a week to kill. And the next day they contacted
Speaker 1: a guy in in Panama. Apparently. I've never been um,
Speaker 1: but in Panama apparently there you can hire a tour
Speaker 1: guide for just about anything, especially trails in the area.
Speaker 1: So one of the things they did was they booked
Speaker 1: a tour guide for a trail. They booked a tour
Speaker 1: guide to take them on this trail called the Pianist.
Speaker 1: The Pianist, which is, depending on the source, either a
Speaker 1: very easy few hours walk through lush jungle with a
Speaker 1: huge payoff. You at the divide at the top of
Speaker 1: the mountains up there, or a super treacherous path riddled
Speaker 1: with hard terrain and is like really dangerous to do.
Speaker 1: I've done a lot of research on this, and as
Speaker 1: far as I can tell, it seems like the path
Speaker 1: up the mountain to the divide is like pretty easy.
Speaker 1: I mean, I wouldn't say that, you know, it's just
Speaker 1: like a stroll. It's not paved. It's uphill. It is,
Speaker 1: you know, definitely uphill, but it's not like a climb.
Speaker 1: You don't have to be, you know, a super experienced hiker. Yeah,
Speaker 1: a lot of It's like a lot of trails in Oregon.
Speaker 1: You know, there's the easy part and yeah, and then
Speaker 1: the easy part or the not easy part is on
Speaker 1: the other side of the divide. It seems like I've
Speaker 1: watched a lot of videos of people like walking around
Speaker 1: in this area, and it does seem like, you know,
Speaker 1: I guess if it was like flooded, if it was
Speaker 1: super wet and soggy, maybe it would be dangerous or
Speaker 1: hard to navigate. But on April one, which is when
Speaker 1: these girls were in the area, it was beautiful. It
Speaker 1: was like really nice weather and really sunny and nice
Speaker 1: and so anyways, so that a tornado didn't get him.
Speaker 1: But anyway, so they and their plan, I presume was
Speaker 1: just to go to the top, look around, and come
Speaker 1: back the easy way again. Well, and I you know,
Speaker 1: that's kind of a question, honestly, is um they hired
Speaker 1: this this guide for April second in the morning, who
Speaker 1: was going to take them on the trail? They they
Speaker 1: arranged for that and everything, and then on the first
Speaker 1: April one, eleven am, they just decided, you know what,
Speaker 1: let's just do that trail today, I guess, as far
Speaker 1: as anyone can tell, which is odd to me, I'll
Speaker 1: be honest, it's a little weird that you would, you know,
Speaker 1: book a guide to take you on a trail and
Speaker 1: then just hike it the day before. Yeah, that doesn't
Speaker 1: make a lot of sense to me. Any Let's get
Speaker 1: back to the story. You know, kind of just talked
Speaker 1: for a little bit there. So at about eleven am
Speaker 1: on April one, Lausanne and Chris took off to walk
Speaker 1: with Lisanne's backpack with bottled water. And you know, it
Speaker 1: doesn't seem like they had snacks or really anything. It
Speaker 1: just seems like they did have bottles of water, and
Speaker 1: they had their phones and their cameras and a little
Speaker 1: money UM. And they had searched for directions to the
Speaker 1: trail from where they were UM on their computers before
Speaker 1: they left their homes day. And there are some reports
Speaker 1: that they had brunch that morning at a cafe before
Speaker 1: they left. It's not totally clear if that happened or not.
Speaker 1: It's also not clear, uh, if it's true or not
Speaker 1: that the reports of two young Dutch gentlemen joining them
Speaker 1: for that meal was true. But what is certain is
Speaker 1: that it's uncertain how they got from where they were
Speaker 1: staying in their homes day to the trailhead. I guess
Speaker 1: it was a bit of a you would have had
Speaker 1: to take a taxi or a bus or something like that.
Speaker 1: That was a long walk them from there. Yeah, maybe
Speaker 1: maybe the two Dutch guys gave him a ride. That
Speaker 1: is thrown around is this is this is this part
Speaker 1: of Panama I really popular with Dutch people. I guess
Speaker 1: I don't know, Like these were Dutch men that like
Speaker 1: they didn't they apparently didn't actually know, like they weren't
Speaker 1: friends with them. They just approached them and had heard
Speaker 1: that they were speaking Dutch and they were like, oh,
Speaker 1: we're from the Netherlands to let's talk. I was gonna say, Yeah,
Speaker 1: if you're in a foreign country, you're in a little restaurant,
Speaker 1: you overhear a language that you know, you automatically gravitate
Speaker 1: to that. Of course. Yeah, I mean whenever I travel,
Speaker 1: I always meet people and wind up hanging out with them.
Speaker 1: So the weather this happened in two thousand fourteen, I
Speaker 1: guess I haven't actually set the dates out or anything
Speaker 1: like that. April first, two thousand fourteen, and the weather
Speaker 1: so not that long ago. That's why she admitted she
Speaker 1: was breaking the rules earlier, super breaking the rules. So
Speaker 1: the weather on the first of April two thousand fourteen
Speaker 1: was high than the like nineties fahrenheit, which is thirties celsius,
Speaker 1: and lows in the kind of low seventies, low twenties celsius.
Speaker 1: Nice weather, yeah, I mean probably humid yet nineties and
Speaker 1: humid for hiking. I don't know, I probably would like, well,
Speaker 1: I suppose it was a really easy trail. I just
Speaker 1: don't like. I'm not a hot weather per sure. You know,
Speaker 1: it's it's not as though it was you know, freezing
Speaker 1: cold and covering rain and all the times it wasn't
Speaker 1: terrible conditions. They had with them a camera, it was
Speaker 1: like a cannon or an icon, I can't remember. It
Speaker 1: was a canon, and they had their phones and as
Speaker 1: you did, imagine imagine, they took a couple of photos
Speaker 1: in these like really picturesque locations. They're gorgeous photos. I've
Speaker 1: seen some of the photos too, you know, and and
Speaker 1: they look like they're having a great time. I would be, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's beautiful out there. And so they took photos of
Speaker 1: each other, so they don't appear together in any photos.
Speaker 1: You know, that's just two girls out hiking and say,
Speaker 1: you know you, okay, you take a picture of me. Okay,
Speaker 1: now I'll take a picture of you. It's you know.
Speaker 1: So there's a picture of each of them at the
Speaker 1: kind of summit at the Continental vide which is beautiful.
Speaker 1: And then there are some pictures that are kind of
Speaker 1: more like candid hiking shots of Chris that Listen presumably
Speaker 1: took um I think it was her camera in fact,
Speaker 1: and they show Chris not wearing a backpack, so we
Speaker 1: presume that Lisanne was wearing the backpack as well. But
Speaker 1: you know, they're just like from behind shots or like
Speaker 1: you know, Chris standing by a waterfall and like posing,
Speaker 1: and you know, none of those photos exist of Lissen.
Speaker 1: They're all of Chris, so we know who like to
Speaker 1: use the camera more than the other. Yeah, or you
Speaker 1: know it was her camera, so you know, you would
Speaker 1: just kind of assume if she was probably walking behind
Speaker 1: Chris and she was just you know, snapping photos. Oh yeah, right,
Speaker 1: some of them do kind of look more like, hey, Chris,
Speaker 1: turn round, click, you know, pose for the picture. Then
Speaker 1: on April two, when the girls failed to appear at
Speaker 1: their appointment with the local guide, he got a little angry.
Speaker 1: I don't think he was angry. The impression I have
Speaker 1: is that he actually his first he was first concerned. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So he went to the house where they were home
Speaker 1: staying and said, well, you know, did they oversleep? Did
Speaker 1: they decide to cancel and not tell me what's going on?
Speaker 1: And the family that they were supposed to be staying with, said, oh,
Speaker 1: we even we haven't seen them. They left yesterday and
Speaker 1: we haven't seen him. Since. It's not a good start,
Speaker 1: not a great start. The family quickly reported the girls missing,
Speaker 1: Although they attempted to report them missing like two times before,
Speaker 1: they were officially reported missing. They're officially reported missing. I
Speaker 1: think it was like at nine pm, so that obviously
Speaker 1: it wasn't ideal. But apparently as soon as they were
Speaker 1: reported missing, it was reported that the pan p how
Speaker 1: do you say Panamanian Panamanian thank you authorities, they've sent
Speaker 1: out huge search teams and search and rescuers immediately took
Speaker 1: to the jungle to start searching. It turns out that
Speaker 1: might not be true. It turns out that the brother
Speaker 1: of the guide that they had hired, who's a farmer.
Speaker 1: I think that the connection heard about it and got
Speaker 1: some local volunteer farmers and all the others, and they
Speaker 1: started searching. But it turns out that the official search
Speaker 1: and rescue effort didn't start for a while. So wait
Speaker 1: did wait? Wait? So maybe I didn't ever catch that
Speaker 1: in the research They went out on the first, people
Speaker 1: figured out they were missing on the morning of the second,
Speaker 1: and eventually they're reported being The status of being missing
Speaker 1: was finally acknowledged, but only a farmer. I want to
Speaker 1: look for him. A farmer and some local volunteers. You know,
Speaker 1: this is this is a little dinky town. There's probably
Speaker 1: not like a huge you know, search and rescue team
Speaker 1: available right there. Thank you. That Okay, it seems likely,
Speaker 1: you know, it depends on where you read it. Completely
Speaker 1: forgot the context either it was you know, because the
Speaker 1: Panamanian authorities didn't really care. It's that's how it's framed
Speaker 1: for a lot of people. But I think probably Joe's correct.
Speaker 1: It's just that those that wasn't available. Yeah, it probably
Speaker 1: takes a while for the alarms to really start going
Speaker 1: off and people can't get lost for a few days
Speaker 1: in the journalists not necessarily gonna you know, going to
Speaker 1: be fatal because especially on those conditions, yeah, nice weather
Speaker 1: and everything. And now so even if they've fallen down
Speaker 1: and broken a leg, for example, they're not going to
Speaker 1: die of exposure in a couple of days time or
Speaker 1: there they're starvation or anything else. They gotta get bit
Speaker 1: by a lot of bugs. That's not gonna be plus well,
Speaker 1: I mean, but but they're they're it's very easy and
Speaker 1: obvious to just make this, you know, the observation they're
Speaker 1: totally greenhorns. They totally have no idea what they're doing
Speaker 1: because they're not from that area. To me, it would
Speaker 1: seem like you would try and rustle up as many
Speaker 1: people as possible right away, because people who don't know
Speaker 1: what they're doing make stupid decisions. Yeah, well probably if
Speaker 1: you're talking about the searchers versus Yeah, the searchers and
Speaker 1: their locals, they probably know the area pretty well. But
Speaker 1: still it's now you need a lot of people to
Speaker 1: go searching the jungle, right Yeah, I mean now that
Speaker 1: I remember the map of it, Okay, I got you. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they probably just they probably just like headed out the
Speaker 1: trail to see what they were, like, sitting by the
Speaker 1: trail with a broken leg or something like that. On
Speaker 1: April seven, the search was on in Earnest. That's like
Speaker 1: a whole week after they then reported missing. And on
Speaker 1: April eight, in fact, the parents of both of the
Speaker 1: girls flew in from the Netherlands and came with a
Speaker 1: couple of Dutch detectives and twelve trained Dutch dogs. Seven
Speaker 1: we're searching rescue dogs and five were cadaver dogs. Um,
Speaker 1: so these detectives were they like official or privatized or official? Yeah?
Speaker 1: I guess it turns out the Netherlands like super cares
Speaker 1: about their citizens or something. Yeah, I guess not that
Speaker 1: or it was like a slow crime week the detectives
Speaker 1: were like, we gotta do something like that. Seems like
Speaker 1: it's interesting, let's go do that. Yeah, what the hell
Speaker 1: you get to go to Panama for free? Oh? Man? No,
Speaker 1: so that dogs would get these um what what's called
Speaker 1: hits right when they react to the smell of the
Speaker 1: people they're looking for. But it turns out that they
Speaker 1: were all places that the volunteers had searched previously. You know,
Speaker 1: on the first couple of nights. The first night that
Speaker 1: the searchers spent out in the middle of the night
Speaker 1: was April eighth, sending up white flares and making noises
Speaker 1: and you know, having lights and all that stuff, hoping
Speaker 1: that the girls would either hear and see these things
Speaker 1: and call out or signal back or make their way
Speaker 1: to them. That's a fairly typical I think search and
Speaker 1: rescue technique in the jungle like that. Yeah, when it's
Speaker 1: that vast of an area, it's an easy way to
Speaker 1: get somebody's attention. Yeah, they didn't, the girls didn't show. Eventually,
Speaker 1: the search was scaled back. The search party spent five
Speaker 1: consecutive nights out in the jungle doing that same kind
Speaker 1: of behavior of you know, flares and all that stuff
Speaker 1: and the girls were lost presumed dead. You know, I
Speaker 1: think this two really would have benefited from a book.
Speaker 1: This book is called Alone in the Wild by Marcus Duke.
Speaker 1: Actually the whole title is Alone in the Wild The
Speaker 1: Essentials of Wilderness Survival. Yeah, that sounds like that would
Speaker 1: have been helpful. Yeah, yeah, I might need to get this. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think I think so. Yeah. I mean I can
Speaker 1: look it up if you want, but you know, probably
Speaker 1: it's cliok, like, oh look, it's not audible quird. So,
Speaker 1: as you know, Audible is our sponsor for this episode,
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Speaker 1: And I'm pretty sure that Audible's got an app so
Speaker 1: you can put it on your phone or your tablet
Speaker 1: or wherever, so you know, you don't have to be
Speaker 1: online to read it, you don't have to stream it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's great down yeah, man, So well, it's kind of cool.
Speaker 1: Any when I'm lost in the woods or the wilderness
Speaker 1: or whatever, I'd like to be able to pull up
Speaker 1: my tablet and kill some time by reading something. You're
Speaker 1: watching a movie, but yeah, or listening to an audible book. Yeah. Absolute.
Speaker 1: So Audible podcast dot com, slash Thinking, sideways get it
Speaker 1: for free now today. You never know when you might
Speaker 1: get lost in the woods. That's right. I don't think
Speaker 1: i'd take my tablet into the woods. Your phone though, maybe. Yeah, no,
Speaker 1: I could see I could see that. Yeah, it makes sense,
Speaker 1: just speaking of taking cell phones into the woods. Now,
Speaker 1: did I remember quickly they had cell phones? Right? So
Speaker 1: this is hey, this is where the quotation marks around
Speaker 1: disappearance come in. On June forty four days after the
Speaker 1: search was pretty much just you know, gone, a man
Speaker 1: and his wife were planting I think it was rice,
Speaker 1: but it could have been some other kind of crop
Speaker 1: in their fields by a river and decided, well, it's hot,
Speaker 1: let's go take a dip in the river to cool down.
Speaker 1: So they did, and as they're swimming around, they looked
Speaker 1: over and saw something very curious and bush over there.
Speaker 1: It was a blue backpack, which you don't know because
Speaker 1: you haven't seen the pictures and you don't know my brain,
Speaker 1: but it is the color of the backpack that Lisanne
Speaker 1: was carrying when the girls disappeared on April one. Was this, um,
Speaker 1: I have not figured I'd not figured out if this
Speaker 1: was like right on the edge of the river, like
Speaker 1: it had floated down the river and wound up just
Speaker 1: sort of lots and some stuff, and the river was
Speaker 1: seated a little bit, or was it above the river?
Speaker 1: It was above the river in like a bush significantly
Speaker 1: above but the ver Yeah, but on the river path. Well, actually,
Speaker 1: the water flow between April and June probably dropped quite
Speaker 1: a bit, so it's quite possible. Yeah, And there was
Speaker 1: a lot of in the in the forty four days
Speaker 1: in between. There was a lot of flash flooding that
Speaker 1: was happening and things like that. So it's it's pretty
Speaker 1: much just generally accepted that the backpack floated there and
Speaker 1: ended up there in the water lowered and it just
Speaker 1: stayed there. Anyways, it was in fact Lisan's backpack. They
Speaker 1: found it and they turned it in because there was
Speaker 1: a lot of publicity around this in Panama, this disappearance
Speaker 1: and that, you know, there were pictures of the backpack
Speaker 1: that you know, or some a pack pack like it,
Speaker 1: So everybody kind of knew that if you found a
Speaker 1: backpack like that, you just turn it in. Contain neatly
Speaker 1: packed within were two pairs of cheap sunglasses, eighty three
Speaker 1: dollars in US money to cell phones, a camera, and
Speaker 1: two broads neatly folded. The area in which the backpack
Speaker 1: was found was about eight hours as the crow flies,
Speaker 1: or like six and a half miles from the last
Speaker 1: place that they were photographed. That so that's eight and
Speaker 1: a half hours away on foot, eight hours away on
Speaker 1: six and a half miles. This is where I think
Speaker 1: our story gets a little more tragic. You know, it's
Speaker 1: already a little tragic. But the days that followed the discovery,
Speaker 1: the searchers found two boots, one that still had a
Speaker 1: foot inside of it. See the sailorsh see foot phenomenon
Speaker 1: the both the boots they were they weren't a match
Speaker 1: to each other, but they were both matches to the
Speaker 1: boots seen in the photos for each of the girls.
Speaker 1: Well then they were also Yeah, one of them was
Speaker 1: only manufactured them. Yeah, the other one was I think
Speaker 1: like for some reason, presume they were both. They also
Speaker 1: found part of a pelvic bone clean public bone cross shop.
Speaker 1: DNA testing revealed that the bones belonged to Lausanne and Chris.
Speaker 1: As the investigators started to look at the photos on
Speaker 1: the camera and their cell phones, this kind of tragic thing,
Speaker 1: this kind of tragic story started to take hold. Uh.
Speaker 1: They started to look at the it's the exit data
Speaker 1: is that how you say it? Yeah, on the photos,
Speaker 1: and that contains time and GPS location for some things,
Speaker 1: you know, kind of like basic information. Yeah. We talked
Speaker 1: about that kind of data being attached in the Cicada
Speaker 1: one episode, that you can attach data to photos like
Speaker 1: that and they're automatically attached for most cameras, Yeah, most
Speaker 1: modern cameras, digital cameras do it automatically. People don't even
Speaker 1: realize that information is tagged right into the file anymore.
Speaker 1: And you can turn it off on your iPhone I know,
Speaker 1: I think you can turn it off on most most advices,
Speaker 1: you have to go in and do it, so yeah,
Speaker 1: it's not easy to do. And this kind of thing
Speaker 1: that scares me. This is like my most haunting bit
Speaker 1: of this story is that the girls, at least one
Speaker 1: of the girls, had been alive and desperately trying to
Speaker 1: call out for help on the night of April eight,
Speaker 1: that night that the searchers all stayed out there are
Speaker 1: making outgoing phone calls. No, there was no service, so
Speaker 1: there are there's some data in attempts to call make calls,
Speaker 1: but we'll talk about those in like a second. What
Speaker 1: it was that they discovered was on the camera the
Speaker 1: Nike Honor Cannon canon. You keep telling me, and I
Speaker 1: just keep forgetting um. On the night of April eighth,
Speaker 1: there were ninety photos taken between the hours of one
Speaker 1: am and four am, seven of which are just pure black,
Speaker 1: which suggests that they were trying to signal back with
Speaker 1: the flash to the search cruise. For whatever reason, they
Speaker 1: weren't mobile or they weren't able to find the search crew,
Speaker 1: but they saw the signals and we're trying to signal
Speaker 1: back with the flash and that didn't work. Apparently not.
Speaker 1: They should have like climbed up a tree or found
Speaker 1: the found some high ground that might have done it.
Speaker 1: Probably part of the problem is is that they've they've
Speaker 1: got flares, like probably parachute flares up in the air,
Speaker 1: and so all that light and you know, and there
Speaker 1: their little dickie flash was just gonna lost in the noise. Yep,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna go through the timeline a little more. Joe
Speaker 1: was bringing up the phone calls and the pictures and
Speaker 1: stuff like that, so let's just walk through it. There's
Speaker 1: an infographic that I got most of this information off of.
Speaker 1: I've compensated. It's awesome. There's a couple of really great infographics.
Speaker 1: Will post links to all of those on the website.
Speaker 1: But I pull a lot of information off of that,
Speaker 1: but also from other sources. So just bear with me.
Speaker 1: We're going to do that thing where I sit and
Speaker 1: talk at you for a while. Chris had an iPhone,
Speaker 1: Lisanne had a Galaxy three S three. I'm pretty sure
Speaker 1: that that's who had which one, But I could have
Speaker 1: gotten them flip flopped. And some of the information, like
Speaker 1: I said, is hidden like really deep in forums, so
Speaker 1: I've forgotten where everything came from. Well, I think what
Speaker 1: matters is that we know when was an iPhone and
Speaker 1: one was a Galaxy S three. Yes. And the other
Speaker 1: little tidbit is that, like the information about this story
Speaker 1: is in either Dutch or Spanish, neither of which I
Speaker 1: speak or read. Translate that, yeah, you can, you can
Speaker 1: get Google to translate. It turns out that um Spanish
Speaker 1: is okay to like get in Google Translate, but Dutch
Speaker 1: it has a super hard time with. So sometimes you're
Speaker 1: just kind of left out on the lurch. Yeah. I've
Speaker 1: read some of the things, the articles that were from
Speaker 1: the Netherlands, and people just dumped him into Google Translate
Speaker 1: and then dumped him into the forums. And you're reading
Speaker 1: through and you're correcting it as you read it. You're
Speaker 1: trying to that, but you don't know if you're correcting
Speaker 1: it correctly exactly. I read one thing there there were
Speaker 1: some ribs found eventually, and I read somebody had translated
Speaker 1: it um and the spare ribs were found, and yeah,
Speaker 1: so just bear with me, please. On April one, at
Speaker 1: about eleven am, they took off. They started the trail.
Speaker 1: They arrived at the Continental Divide at about one pm.
Speaker 1: By the sun and the XF data on the camera.
Speaker 1: People you know, looked at the pictures and said, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's about where the sun would be. And also this
Speaker 1: is what the data suggest. There had been some speculation
Speaker 1: about the time tables being wrong because people thought that
Speaker 1: the cameras might have still been on the x F
Speaker 1: data recorded on the pictures might have still been on
Speaker 1: Dutch time. But I don't think that that's true for
Speaker 1: a number of reasons, or if it is, they it's
Speaker 1: been changed over. It seems they continued down the other
Speaker 1: side of the mountain and the continental continued to follow
Speaker 1: the path. And this is a fun fact about the
Speaker 1: Continental Divide. I don't know if like a lot of
Speaker 1: people follow this or not, but the river would have
Speaker 1: been running the opposite way, right, so it would have
Speaker 1: been a different river, and that it would have been
Speaker 1: flowing a different way. So if they had tried to
Speaker 1: follow wherever, thinking oh, this will take us back to
Speaker 1: the city, it turns out no, it won't. Yeah, So
Speaker 1: they when they went to the top of the Continental Divide,
Speaker 1: and I've looked at the trail, and the trail does
Speaker 1: follow a river for a period of time. They would
Speaker 1: have been walking upstream. Yep. So if they hit the
Speaker 1: other side of the divide and went downhill and found
Speaker 1: a river and said, oh hey, there's the river, let's
Speaker 1: follow it, they would have been heading downstream, but on
Speaker 1: the opposite side of the peak and following a completely
Speaker 1: different river. Right, yes, right, at about two speaking of
Speaker 1: a river, U two pm, the last photo of Chris
Speaker 1: was taken crossing a stream. She looks super happy and
Speaker 1: calm and relaxed. You know, they're dressed for the weather,
Speaker 1: the hot weather, tank tops and shorts or you know,
Speaker 1: stuff like that. Then at four thirty nine PM, the
Speaker 1: iPhone tried to dial one one two, which is the
Speaker 1: Dutch equivalent of one, and I'm pretty sure that Panama
Speaker 1: you two one two one as well. Sorry numbers and stuff,
Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure anyways. Then at four one the Samsung
Speaker 1: attempts to make the same call. Neither are connected to
Speaker 1: the network, so neither go through. On April two, at
Speaker 1: sixty six am, just right after sunrise, the Samsung attempts
Speaker 1: the one one to call again, which does not go
Speaker 1: through obviously. Then at four am, the iPhone tries the
Speaker 1: one one to call, which was not connected, and a
Speaker 1: screenshot was taken of the phone right after the call
Speaker 1: for reasons unknown. I you know, the screen capture function
Speaker 1: on cell phones is always kind of an awkward thing.
Speaker 1: I accidentally take screen caps of my phone. But you
Speaker 1: gotta hold this button and twist your nose in this
Speaker 1: right way and or just not what you're doing, grab
Speaker 1: it and grip it, and it randomly takes him. So
Speaker 1: I can just see that randomly happened. It's possible. Yeah, yes,
Speaker 1: between between the six am col I presume they must
Speaker 1: have maneuvered to a higher position, hoping. I don't know.
Speaker 1: Con No, there's no there's no data in that. I mean, right,
Speaker 1: you have no idea and they don't. And they didn't
Speaker 1: realize that there's no one one two in Panama. Yeah,
Speaker 1: at ten fifty three AM, a magnitude six point earthquake
Speaker 1: rocks Panama, Panama City. Um, but you they felt it
Speaker 1: in Bokotet or however you say Boet bokhet day or whatever.
Speaker 1: I don't know. You're both wrong, probably and at this
Speaker 1: actually almost this exact moment when they were feeling this earthquake,
Speaker 1: the Samsung attempts the one one two and call both.
Speaker 1: I think somebody who thought you know, one of the
Speaker 1: two must have been oh yeah, maybe it's nine one
Speaker 1: one here. Maybe it's not well, but they've been trying
Speaker 1: both numbers. This is the first time they die online
Speaker 1: one one Oh okay, I was thinking that they had
Speaker 1: been trying nine one one and one one to just
Speaker 1: one one too. I can tell this point. The call
Speaker 1: is not connected again. At one six pm, the Samsung
Speaker 1: again attempts a one one to slash nine one one
Speaker 1: call both and the nine one call nine one one
Speaker 1: call is briefly connected like for a second and then
Speaker 1: drops out. That's frustrating. Yeah, um, so, so obviously they
Speaker 1: must have been moving around trying to find coverage, I think,
Speaker 1: and move around. There's a lot of theories around that, right,
Speaker 1: I mean, something obviously must have happened to one of
Speaker 1: them that made it so that they could not make
Speaker 1: it back out. Yeah. Probably somebody broke a leg, something
Speaker 1: got bit by a spider or we'll talk about that,
Speaker 1: you know, in theories. But this that's you know, one
Speaker 1: of the things is you can only move around so much.
Speaker 1: If one of you is not mobile. You're not gonna
Speaker 1: want to just leave your friend and like wander because
Speaker 1: you don't know your way back to that person. You
Speaker 1: don't want to both be lost separately from each other.
Speaker 1: You know, this is why you don't go into haunted
Speaker 1: houses and then split up. Same theory if we've learned
Speaker 1: anything from horror movies and we don't do that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I always carry a gun. That that moment where
Speaker 1: it's connected, where the nine one one call was connected,
Speaker 1: is the only time any of these calls was connected,
Speaker 1: just as a as a fact. And then at nine
Speaker 1: pm that evening, the girls are officially reported missing. On
Speaker 1: April three, at eight am, the search and rescue teams
Speaker 1: start to patrol the area with a helicopter. So that's
Speaker 1: when they finally deployed. So you know, the next day,
Speaker 1: at nine thirty two, the iPhone attempts to make a
Speaker 1: nine one one only call. At this point, I think
Speaker 1: they had figured out that it's nine because they connected
Speaker 1: on This is the last call that was made for
Speaker 1: a really long time. Then, uh, and the phones are
Speaker 1: starting to get switched off. They're turning them off, I
Speaker 1: think to preserve battery. And actually, when you hear how
Speaker 1: long these phones lasted, like, it's smart, smart move. Yeah,
Speaker 1: because you know what Pandora trying to run in the
Speaker 1: background and run in your battery down right totally or
Speaker 1: like you know, your phone to be searching constantly for
Speaker 1: a signal it'll drink. Yeah. At one fifty pm, the
Speaker 1: iPhone was switched on. And I didn't realize that they
Speaker 1: can pull data from your iPhone of when it's turned
Speaker 1: on and when it's turned off like that it logs
Speaker 1: every time it's turned on, but apparently they can. I
Speaker 1: am not surprised by that at all. Yeah, and then uh,
Speaker 1: four pm, the Samsung was turned on, and four sixteen
Speaker 1: the iPhone was turned on. That's it for that night.
Speaker 1: At four fifty am on April four the Samsung is
Speaker 1: turn and on and then dies. The battery dies at
Speaker 1: five am. The iPhone is switched on at one six
Speaker 1: or ten sixteen and one forty two, and that stays
Speaker 1: super consistent through the next few days. I don't know
Speaker 1: if one of the girls was wearing a watch or what,
Speaker 1: but like super consistent. So then on the fifth, the
Speaker 1: iPhone was switched on at ten fifty am and one
Speaker 1: seven pm. At one thirty seven there was no pin
Speaker 1: entered to unlock the phone, which people think is significant
Speaker 1: for some reason. I think it's probably not really I
Speaker 1: have my ideas, but I'll hold it for the theory section. Well,
Speaker 1: now you have a you have an iPhone, right, yeah,
Speaker 1: and so when you turn when you turn yours on,
Speaker 1: even without putting the pinion, can you look and see
Speaker 1: how many bars you have? Yeah, so no sense putting
Speaker 1: the pen and if you can see, you've got no signal.
Speaker 1: I agree with that. And then on April six, the
Speaker 1: iPhone is switched on at ten six am and one
Speaker 1: thirty seven again pm. Again no pin ender entered at
Speaker 1: either time, and that was it. Nothing on the seventh.
Speaker 1: There's no data from the seventh. And then on April eight,
Speaker 1: in the early morning from one to four am on
Speaker 1: April eight, what many people would consider the night of
Speaker 1: the seventh, right, but it's the early morning on the eighth.
Speaker 1: That's when those nine pictures were taken with the camera.
Speaker 1: As mentioned, seven of them are just black. A lot
Speaker 1: of people I haven't seen them. They haven't been released,
Speaker 1: so a lot of people think maybe the lens cap
Speaker 1: was on. I don't think cameras take pictures with lens
Speaker 1: caps on. This was a point and shoot. It didn't
Speaker 1: have a lens cap. It has a built in shutter,
Speaker 1: but it's one of those ones. As soon as you
Speaker 1: turn it on, the shutter opens, it's ready to rock.
Speaker 1: So for me, that's that means that they were just
Speaker 1: taking pictures into the sky, possibly right, because you're if
Speaker 1: you're covered, you're going to find an uncovered as much
Speaker 1: of an uncovered areas possible. Otherwise you're gonna see reflections
Speaker 1: of trees and stuff like that. So again, I don't
Speaker 1: know nobody's seeing these pictures. No, I mean you don't.
Speaker 1: None of the amateurs have seen these pictures, so I
Speaker 1: don't know how quote unquote totally black they are. But
Speaker 1: there are three that are not. They have all been released.
Speaker 1: One was a blurry photo that appeared to be like
Speaker 1: the back or the side of Chris's head. It's just
Speaker 1: like her blurry hair. I'll show it to you guys
Speaker 1: in studio in a second. Um links of course on
Speaker 1: my website. One photo of like a rock wall with
Speaker 1: vegetation overhanging it. And one photo that creeps a lot
Speaker 1: of people out but doesn't creep me out. That's a
Speaker 1: small branch with two pieces of red plastic tied on it,
Speaker 1: and there's like either a gum wrapper or like one
Speaker 1: of those single servo serving pill packets underneath it. And
Speaker 1: I guess some people look at that and think that
Speaker 1: the red plastic is skin, which I literally can't even
Speaker 1: and like talk myself into it looking like No, that
Speaker 1: that looks like if anybody's ever gone into the woods
Speaker 1: in an area where they were gonna, let's say, fell
Speaker 1: trees or they mark trees and it's set that really
Speaker 1: thin red material. It's it's kind of elastic flagging. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's flagging, and that looks like shreds of stuff. That's
Speaker 1: that same consistency of material. It's just a little pieces
Speaker 1: of plastic. And now this is a This is a
Speaker 1: picture on the right, correct, Yeah, I have a better
Speaker 1: one of that. This is the only one. There's the
Speaker 1: picture of the side of Chris's head in, but I
Speaker 1: have the other other two ones. I'll show you just now.
Speaker 1: This is the one that people talk about being the
Speaker 1: rock wall. It looks to me more like it's a
Speaker 1: you know, it maybe just be the orientation, but it
Speaker 1: kind of looks like a path to me. Honestly, Um,
Speaker 1: it's hard to tell. It almost looks like ruts, like
Speaker 1: they're on the road with with wheel ruts or something
Speaker 1: like that. And then this is that one that creeps
Speaker 1: pe pull out. And I should say that there have
Speaker 1: been reports that red bags similar to that were found
Speaker 1: in their belongings, in uh, their rooms at their homestay,
Speaker 1: um for whatever reason. You know. They're like doggie bags
Speaker 1: or something. I was gonna say, it's almost like a
Speaker 1: cheap takeout plastic yea. So I don't know if like
Speaker 1: one of the girls was like, you know, keeping stuff
Speaker 1: in there or like what you know, like it's totally
Speaker 1: possible you just take them with you, maybe to put
Speaker 1: trash in if you you know, I don't know, Well,
Speaker 1: depending on where you're going. In some places you have
Speaker 1: to carry your poop out. Seriously, Uh, those two handled
Speaker 1: grocery bags are actually quite handy for that. But I'm
Speaker 1: wondering if they actually took those bags out and empty
Speaker 1: them type into the branch just as a signal flag.
Speaker 1: That's that's the theory. Is the tiniest little signal flag
Speaker 1: I ever did see, though, Yeah, it's not gonna do
Speaker 1: not really. And then behind that it looks like water
Speaker 1: to me. There's a lot of speculation, but it looks
Speaker 1: like reflection of the water. Would you say that that's accurate?
Speaker 1: It's accessible. It looks like it's a river, creeks something,
Speaker 1: because there's a sharp delineation there. I mean, so I
Speaker 1: think that's probably water and it's not. It doesn't look
Speaker 1: like the ground that we saw on the previous pictures
Speaker 1: or anything like that. And I guess the only like
Speaker 1: kind of question on on that is like why I
Speaker 1: take a picture of that. I as I look at that,
Speaker 1: I kind of had the same initial Oh, it's a
Speaker 1: that's they must be at the river, river or something.
Speaker 1: But now, to me, if it's that dark out and
Speaker 1: you can barely make out the trees in the background,
Speaker 1: that looks like wet broadly foliage. To me, that's reflecting
Speaker 1: moonlight or flash. Most likely it's probably the flat that
Speaker 1: they've they've lit off by taken this photos. I question
Speaker 1: that that's that they're near the river. Yeah. Actually, as
Speaker 1: I look at it more closely, it looks like it's
Speaker 1: maybe a little mound of mound of earth with foliage
Speaker 1: in the background a little bit a little bit of
Speaker 1: a little bit further away. I mean, yeah, And actually
Speaker 1: when I look at it, you know, the other thing
Speaker 1: I can make it into is like trees like they're
Speaker 1: in a clearing and you can see like the trees
Speaker 1: kind of in the distance a little bit reflecting, and
Speaker 1: and that is that Is that the moon in the
Speaker 1: upper right or is that just refraction? I don't know,
Speaker 1: I would be I'm going to say that's refraction because
Speaker 1: it looks like it's in a chunk of tree. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it looks like it's speck of dust or something. Yeah. Anyways,
Speaker 1: I still like it doesn't really matter, like the contents
Speaker 1: of the background of that picture, because like I still
Speaker 1: I am not totally clear why you take a picture
Speaker 1: of that thing. And also a picture of the side
Speaker 1: of Chris's head or the side or back of Chris's
Speaker 1: head or you know, there's a lot of people The
Speaker 1: other theory about these photos is that they were trying
Speaker 1: to use it to like light their way. That's kind
Speaker 1: of what I'm saying, you know, But I guess for me,
Speaker 1: I have pretty good night vision, and I know that
Speaker 1: for me, if I'm walking outside and it's dark, I
Speaker 1: don't want to use a flashlight because it actually makes
Speaker 1: it harder for me to see than just let your
Speaker 1: eyes adjust to the dark and kind of navigate that way. Well, certainly,
Speaker 1: especially if it's just like a bright flash too. Exactly
Speaker 1: using a flashlight is one thing, but just blinding yourself
Speaker 1: with the flash of your camera. Yeah, okay, So this
Speaker 1: is presumably after moonset. It's not after moon set, but
Speaker 1: it's after the moon went behind the mountain. And by
Speaker 1: this time, again, what side of the mountain where they
Speaker 1: have of the accoontable wide were they on? They were
Speaker 1: on the north side, north side the trail they took.
Speaker 1: It's kind of a north northeasterly trail. And then once
Speaker 1: they hit the other side. We're not positive that the
Speaker 1: things that were found were nearly directly north you know,
Speaker 1: these miles away, but it's it's all. They're all on
Speaker 1: the north side of the divide. Okay. The other thing
Speaker 1: that people suggest with these pictures or the use of
Speaker 1: the flashes, that they were trying to scare something away.
Speaker 1: That seems like a long time to try and scare
Speaker 1: something away, especially if you've been sleeping in the jungle
Speaker 1: for a while and you have been dealing with whatever
Speaker 1: you would be scaring away. Likely, you know, they didn't
Speaker 1: know that any of the big predators that live in
Speaker 1: the jungle there aren't actually going to try and kill you.
Speaker 1: They're not doing they're kind of bashful. They might if
Speaker 1: you were like a single small child, they might try,
Speaker 1: but like to you know, even adult sized, mildly adult
Speaker 1: sized human beings, they're not. They're not going to try.
Speaker 1: And and also by this time they would have had
Speaker 1: the brains, hopefully to secure some really big clubs from themselves,
Speaker 1: just in the event of something like that happened. I mean, like,
Speaker 1: I camera, which big cat it is that's in Panama.
Speaker 1: But other than a big cat or some ginormous snake,
Speaker 1: there's not I can't really think of any other major
Speaker 1: predators that would be a threat to a human. It's
Speaker 1: not it's the big cats, and the big cats aren't
Speaker 1: going to attack you, and a snake might. But right,
Speaker 1: that's again, that's that's why I'm asking. Those are very unlikely. Honestly,
Speaker 1: the creature the things that will kill you in this
Speaker 1: area are poison snakes, snakes, and spiders. No, I didn't
Speaker 1: know a guy one time who backpacked through Central America
Speaker 1: and he said, I'm pretty sure he said it was
Speaker 1: in Panama. He was what's the word accosted by vampire bats. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that wouldn't surprise me. And yeah, they were trying to
Speaker 1: they were trying to get through his mosquito netting and
Speaker 1: get at him, and yeah, and that would be unsettling. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that would be So I would imagine that, you know,
Speaker 1: maybe maybe driving away the the vampire bats with the
Speaker 1: with the flash. Maybe and certainly not for like three hours, right,
Speaker 1: I mean consistently for three hours. That seems well. But
Speaker 1: if they're out in the middle of the night and
Speaker 1: they smell prey, they're going to keep coming back. But
Speaker 1: then you, like, you find a new place to be, right,
Speaker 1: I mean, you find some more cover. You don't just
Speaker 1: sit there and like flash for three hours, you like
Speaker 1: any other cover, is the point. I guess, I don't
Speaker 1: I don't know. This is completely conjectured, is actually um,
Speaker 1: but that would be another explanation for their their their
Speaker 1: stick with the bags tied to it would be with
Speaker 1: That's true, very good point. Although they're tiny little bits
Speaker 1: of it looks like a very small stick break if
Speaker 1: I if I whacked you with that, it would snap. Yeah.
Speaker 1: The other thing that people suggested, we're just going to like,
Speaker 1: you know, deal with these pictures right now. One of
Speaker 1: the other things that I saw suggested around was that
Speaker 1: by this time it's likely that at least one of
Speaker 1: them was could have potentially been hallucinating, either for you know,
Speaker 1: lack of food or lack of sleep or lack of water,
Speaker 1: just fear or whatever, and that they were trying to
Speaker 1: capture pictures of what they were seeing, not what was
Speaker 1: actually there. So that's also a theory out there. How
Speaker 1: much it holds, what you know, I don't know, but
Speaker 1: it's a it's a theory. Maybe they ate some bad
Speaker 1: mushrooms or something. I mean, it's always possible if you're
Speaker 1: starving in the wilderness and you no idea what you're doing,
Speaker 1: it's always possible. Note to all of our listeners, if
Speaker 1: you're in the jungle or the woods, never eat mushrooms. Yeah,
Speaker 1: don't unless you know well, mushrooms basically have no caloric value,
Speaker 1: so it's not worth even taking the chance. Just don't
Speaker 1: do it. If I were here, that's the fact of
Speaker 1: the day. Okay, don't do it. Just don't do it.
Speaker 1: Just don't do it. But yeah, yeah, there's so many
Speaker 1: people out there have died from eating mushrooms, So yeah, kids,
Speaker 1: don't do it. Just take a lot of power bars
Speaker 1: with you when you go, hey, I'm gonna go get lost. Okay. Anyway,
Speaker 1: so the pictures on April eighth are it until April eleven,
Speaker 1: at which time, uh, the iPhone was switched on again
Speaker 1: at ten one am and then eventually dies at eleven
Speaker 1: fifty six a m. My iPhone barely last a day. Legitimately,
Speaker 1: I was out yesterday. I had been using it like
Speaker 1: a little bit, but I was out and my phone
Speaker 1: died while I was out at um I think seven pm.
Speaker 1: It made it from like seven A I made it
Speaker 1: twelve hours. That was it. So kudos on them for
Speaker 1: finding a way to make an iPhone last what was it,
Speaker 1: ten days? That's incredible. It seems to me that, you know,
Speaker 1: the the off again on again strategy is a good one. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And the consistency of the off again on again is
Speaker 1: a super good strategy to you know that they were
Speaker 1: turning them on and off at the same time they
Speaker 1: were calling that kind of the same times. That's smart
Speaker 1: because if you unknowingly make it through and they you know,
Speaker 1: for whatever reason, it gets dropped because it's gonna get
Speaker 1: dropped search and rescue or emergency services, then have like
Speaker 1: a time frame they can see. They say, Okay, well
Speaker 1: they called it this time, so let's keep an eye out.
Speaker 1: Maybe they'll call it. But to correct me if I'm wrong,
Speaker 1: the one call that went through to one was that
Speaker 1: a different weird time. Well, but the point I'm getting
Speaker 1: at is it was no, it's it's noted because it
Speaker 1: was recorded on the phone. Is having connected but didn't
Speaker 1: stick long enough for one to know and log it
Speaker 1: r that's true, So that there there's there's a bit
Speaker 1: of an issue that. I mean, I understand that the
Speaker 1: whole thing. It's just the logic of it. It's not
Speaker 1: It's kind of like it's kind of like you know
Speaker 1: when you when you when you actually hit that number
Speaker 1: and it goes to dial it and there's that lag
Speaker 1: between when it actually starts ringing. I mean you connect
Speaker 1: before the ring starts. Yeah, So yeah, I mean it's
Speaker 1: like like if I were to call you right now,
Speaker 1: your phone wouldn't start ringing for a little bit. My
Speaker 1: phone my phone will be going like oh yeah, going through,
Speaker 1: and your phone wouldn't know it for a while. Anyway,
Speaker 1: That's that's neither here nor there. That's so anyway, again,
Speaker 1: the data from the phones and also from the camera.
Speaker 1: None of that stuff actually tells them what their course was.
Speaker 1: The authorities what the course because the phones didn't have STAIN,
Speaker 1: weren't connecting to anything. Well, the phone still have GPS
Speaker 1: would still be working. I guess they weren't. I don't
Speaker 1: know if they If they do know that path, they
Speaker 1: aren't releasing it. So I don't have that information. Somebody might,
Speaker 1: I don't. I also do want to mention that I
Speaker 1: have read on a various different forums that there were
Speaker 1: like six calls made from the iPhone at the end
Speaker 1: of the eleventh day or the eleventh of April, the
Speaker 1: tenth day. But I can't find a source for that,
Speaker 1: and I don't think that's true. I don't think that
Speaker 1: really happened. I think the phone just died. I don't
Speaker 1: think that six calls were made in rapid Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: like somebody through that in for a little drama, because
Speaker 1: six rapid calls me something horrible. What's happening coming after us?
Speaker 1: We've got to get the cops in here, pretty much. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So that's that's the information that we have in terms
Speaker 1: of timeline, and there are of course some big questions
Speaker 1: here that we will probably never have answers to. One
Speaker 1: thing that a lot of people are saying they think
Speaker 1: is weird is that neither of the girls recorded like
Speaker 1: a farewell of any kind. No like, no, no like video,
Speaker 1: no like picture, nothing. And I guess that's a thing
Speaker 1: that you see in people who die, like in the wilderness,
Speaker 1: fairly frequently, people who know they're going to die, like,
Speaker 1: you know, leave a note that says, I love you mom,
Speaker 1: I love you dad, I'm so sorry, or this happened
Speaker 1: to us, and like it's horrible, horrible and awful and
Speaker 1: I'm about to die and I love everybody, you know.
Speaker 1: But that doesn't really bother me so much, I'll be honest. Well,
Speaker 1: probably they probably wouldn't have thought to do that until
Speaker 1: I read that on the internet. So yeah, they they
Speaker 1: maybe didn't give up hope and think I'm about to
Speaker 1: die or anything like that. And by that time, of course,
Speaker 1: the batteries and all the devices are dead, and by
Speaker 1: the time they thought about making a farewell video well
Speaker 1: too late. But a lot of those little points, she
Speaker 1: don't they have kind of crappy little batteries, Like I've
Speaker 1: got a little point in sheot pentachs nice little camera,
Speaker 1: but the battery doesn't last long at all. Well, it's
Speaker 1: also hard to tell like how long after the phones
Speaker 1: died they were alive. Yeah, you know, I mean like
Speaker 1: they could have both been alive for like ten more days.
Speaker 1: They could have not been feeling like they were about
Speaker 1: to die for you know, a week until after, you know,
Speaker 1: after their stuff died. So it's also possible that that
Speaker 1: wasn't a thing that concerned them. As I said, it
Speaker 1: doesn't concern me, but I did want to bring it
Speaker 1: up because I do see it a lot of places.
Speaker 1: There's also this fun problem that comes up when they
Speaker 1: did interviews with local witnesses, not witnesses of whatever happened
Speaker 1: to them, obviously, but people who said that they saw
Speaker 1: the girls on the first in the town. In the town,
Speaker 1: it's pretty well confirmed that the photos that they took
Speaker 1: gone the Continental Divide were taken out one pm, so
Speaker 1: they would have had to have left town at like
Speaker 1: eleven am at the very latest for them to have
Speaker 1: you know, walked up there and all that stuff. But
Speaker 1: apparently the woman who runs the school that they were
Speaker 1: planning to work for claims that she spoke with them
Speaker 1: at one pm that day. Further it's I mean, it's impossible,
Speaker 1: It's simply impossible. Furthermore, at Yeah, the other thing is
Speaker 1: that the innkeeper slash like coffee there's a guy who
Speaker 1: runs like an inn and like a coffee shop, but
Speaker 1: like basically the bottom of the trail outside a very
Speaker 1: outside of town. You run into this in like European
Speaker 1: countries a lot too. There's just like a random in there.
Speaker 1: He said that he saw two um he's the term
Speaker 1: gringo girls. Uh, that vaguely kind of matched the description
Speaker 1: of Listen and Chris. I mean, certainly there couldn't have
Speaker 1: been like that in many white folks walking around of
Speaker 1: that age. There could have been I don't know, I
Speaker 1: don't know if there's enough business for a guy to
Speaker 1: have a guide service up and down that trail for
Speaker 1: you know, to make money. There might be enough. And
Speaker 1: and you know, a couple of green gold girls is
Speaker 1: probably a very apt description of who he saw. Whoever
Speaker 1: he saw, so his description of them is like a
Speaker 1: little off. And you know, he said that the taller
Speaker 1: brunette girl was wearing black leggings, but Listen was wearing
Speaker 1: like a black skirt or shorts. Or something. It doesn't
Speaker 1: super match, but he kind of described them. And he
Speaker 1: said that girls, these two girls that he saw showed
Speaker 1: up at his inn at about three thirty pm, which
Speaker 1: would have been about when they were probably hitting that area. Again,
Speaker 1: if they walked straight down from the Continental evidence going
Speaker 1: over that timeline makes sense. They looked, he said, they
Speaker 1: looked really, really tired, and they were asking for directions
Speaker 1: back into town, and he said, you you should take
Speaker 1: a taxi. But he described one of them as being
Speaker 1: a brunette. Yeah, Lis ansa brunette. Ones are redhead, ones
Speaker 1: are brunette. He He then said he didn't pay attention
Speaker 1: to see if they had walked back into town or
Speaker 1: walked to the trail. I don't know also how good
Speaker 1: their Spanish was, and I don't know if they're kind
Speaker 1: of regional dialects. So it's, you know, possible that I
Speaker 1: guess it's possible that they did, in fact walk back down,
Speaker 1: got directions they didn't totally understand, and thought that they
Speaker 1: were in the wrong place, and walked back up the hill.
Speaker 1: But that seems unlikely to me. I literally have no
Speaker 1: idea what would possess those girls to walk back to
Speaker 1: the trail well, and they know they know what direction
Speaker 1: they got there somehow, so they know what direction town is.
Speaker 1: They can't be confused about where the town is. And
Speaker 1: you may not know, but give me a rough approximate here.
Speaker 1: How high is it from where they started at the
Speaker 1: bottom of the trail to the Continental Divide elevation? Do
Speaker 1: you know how many? Idea? Literally, no idea? What's okay?
Speaker 1: I know that it's a significant number. I mean, like,
Speaker 1: you know, you you ascend. I don't know. Let's just
Speaker 1: say a thousand feet again, I'm pulling that number out
Speaker 1: of thin air. But it would be really hard to say, Oh,
Speaker 1: I don't know. I guess we'll go back off that
Speaker 1: thousand foot incline sense. Yeah, it's got to be two
Speaker 1: other girls. I would agree with that. The other problem,
Speaker 1: I guess is that these Dutch men that they had
Speaker 1: brunch with, and actually it turns out that it's confirmed
Speaker 1: that those the detectives who came from the Netherlands found
Speaker 1: those men like they knew who those men were, and
Speaker 1: they interviewed them and questioned them. They had returned to
Speaker 1: the Netherlands since the Dutch detectives showed up in Panama
Speaker 1: and they found them and interviewed them. But that's like it,
Speaker 1: like they know, the Dutch of officials never released anything
Speaker 1: that said these were the men, and they had literally
Speaker 1: no information. They'd like, there was none of that happened.
Speaker 1: They it's just oh yeah, we found them and we
Speaker 1: interviewed them. End of story. So that's a bit. You know,
Speaker 1: that's of course frustrating for us a little bit as
Speaker 1: trying to solve this mystery. Although you know, I don't
Speaker 1: know if that's standard operating procedure for police these days,
Speaker 1: like say, in cases like this which are abound to
Speaker 1: make it onto the internet and make it on a
Speaker 1: web sluice and then pages like that. Maybe the guy said, hey, look,
Speaker 1: I know this is going to wind up on web
Speaker 1: sluices and and and millions of people are going to
Speaker 1: start circulating like you know, all these rumors that you know,
Speaker 1: we're the killers. I think that you don't have to
Speaker 1: even release the name, right, you just have to say, like, oh, hey, yeah,
Speaker 1: we we found them and they weren't involved, like we
Speaker 1: interviewed them and they had lunch with the girls and
Speaker 1: they weren't involved anymore. Like they that's fine, but they
Speaker 1: haven't even released that amount of information. So there are
Speaker 1: a lot of theories out there. We're gonna just kind
Speaker 1: of talking broad terms about them. But I do want
Speaker 1: to make sure really quickly that we're all on the
Speaker 1: same page about all of the bones that were found
Speaker 1: being like totally clean and like broken in weird places.
Speaker 1: We're cool with that, right. We don't need to like
Speaker 1: talk about the fact that they were they died in
Speaker 1: the jungle and there are scavengers and weather and bugs
Speaker 1: would have very quickly been cleaned off by animals and
Speaker 1: bugs and the weather, and then likely they were all
Speaker 1: found in riverbeds, so they were washed down the river
Speaker 1: broken by rocks. That's what happened. The shoe, did that
Speaker 1: only have bones in it? Or did that actually have
Speaker 1: flesh in it as well? I think it had some
Speaker 1: flesh in it too, But I think that's not so
Speaker 1: weird to me. Well, no, it's not weird, but that
Speaker 1: was the only place that I could see that happening,
Speaker 1: So I just want to Yep, that's my understanding is
Speaker 1: that it had the kind of foot in it, So
Speaker 1: we're good. We don't need to talk about that. If
Speaker 1: anybody has like huge questions, I guess We'll put a
Speaker 1: link into like how bodies decomposing the jungle on the
Speaker 1: website if you really want to do the research, really don't. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so theories, Yeah you got. First off, as with most
Speaker 1: of my stories, it turns out these days there's kind
Speaker 1: of two camps, foul play or unfortunate accident. I'm gonna
Speaker 1: go ahead and start out by saying I think foul
Speaker 1: play is like super unlikely, and you can kind of
Speaker 1: just extrapolate out, like what people you know, it's Panama.
Speaker 1: It's actually it turns out one of the safest places
Speaker 1: in Panama, but it's still Panama. So you know, people say, oh,
Speaker 1: they were murdered, but like why really they took They
Speaker 1: took like many many days to murder them, a lot
Speaker 1: of days, and then somebody, well somebody was like, oh,
Speaker 1: they could have been murdered, and then it was the
Speaker 1: murderer was like trying to make it look like they
Speaker 1: were lost in the wilderness, so they were like turning
Speaker 1: the phone on and like faking calls. But that's the
Speaker 1: dumbest thing I ever heard. Thank you for saying those words,
Speaker 1: because I was almost gonna say, that's the dumbest thing
Speaker 1: I've heard of the day, because if I live in
Speaker 1: the you know, if I'm a commando in the jungle,
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna leave a false trail for some woman
Speaker 1: or two women that I kill. I'm just gonna kill him, yeah,
Speaker 1: and hide the bodies really carefully. Also rape and kidnapping,
Speaker 1: but those are also dumb. Yeah, they carried it out
Speaker 1: for a long time. It's just yeah, it went on
Speaker 1: for a real long time. And like, who in the
Speaker 1: world is going to put that much effort into like
Speaker 1: staging an unfortunate loss, Like that's dumb. Yeah, I can't
Speaker 1: I can't buy that. And there's there's As just said,
Speaker 1: this is one of the safer places in the area,
Speaker 1: So I can't really see it just doesn't make sense.
Speaker 1: There's not a lot of guerrilla activity or nefarious activity
Speaker 1: for me to even count that as a viable option.
Speaker 1: And this isn't the area of Panama where there's just
Speaker 1: like random pot farms everywhere and stuff. That's not I mean,
Speaker 1: there might be, but like it's not. They didn't likely
Speaker 1: just wander onto you know, somebody's land or anything like that.
Speaker 1: And so but as anybody considered, is there anybody out
Speaker 1: there in the world, the World Wide Web is talking
Speaker 1: about alien abduction. Because again, I'm kind of surprised it
Speaker 1: went on too long. That's the whole thing is, like
Speaker 1: it went on for so long that like pretty much
Speaker 1: the only option is that, like there was an unfortunate
Speaker 1: accident that happened. Yeah, I'm sure even if they were
Speaker 1: just lost. I mean, one of them obviously probably died
Speaker 1: before the other one died. So there's an interesting, fun,
Speaker 1: little tidbit of information that I didn't bring up earlier,
Speaker 1: but I will bring up now, uh when it's it's
Speaker 1: interesting when they did the analysis, so I guess I
Speaker 1: didn't mention that like a lot of other bones have
Speaker 1: been found since that kind of initial bone find um,
Speaker 1: some of them were leg bones, and when they did
Speaker 1: and now a lissis on the leg bones that were
Speaker 1: Lisan's they found, I guess you can tell via bones
Speaker 1: this condition that causes your muscles to inflame and it
Speaker 1: affects your bones as well. I can't remember what it's called,
Speaker 1: but it's caused by over exertion. So that strongly suggests,
Speaker 1: you know, to a lot of people they say, well,
Speaker 1: maybe like Chris got injured and Lisan was trying to
Speaker 1: carry her, or you know, maybe Lissan, you know, broke
Speaker 1: her leg and was like over exerting the other leg
Speaker 1: trying to you know anything. It also, I guess it's
Speaker 1: possible that the inflammation could have been caused like by poison,
Speaker 1: like by a bite. All possible. So I guess, you know,
Speaker 1: my list of unfortunate accident stuff is. I think it's
Speaker 1: it's most likely that one of them got bit by
Speaker 1: a snake on accident or twisted an ankle and they
Speaker 1: thought they could figure out a shortcut through the jungle
Speaker 1: and got lost out there. Let me talk about the time.
Speaker 1: I'm not going to tell you the time, and one
Speaker 1: of these days I'll tell you the story of the
Speaker 1: time I was in Padigo and yeah, and I took
Speaker 1: a short cut. Yeah, I mean, it's also possible. You know,
Speaker 1: there are a lot of like weird ravines that go off.
Speaker 1: They just thought that was the trail and took that.
Speaker 1: There are pictures of them on the trail that, you know,
Speaker 1: Steve and I were kind of talking about earlier. I
Speaker 1: was like, this picture actually creeps me out of Chris
Speaker 1: because it kind of looks like they're just walking through
Speaker 1: a dried up riverbed that doesn't look like a trail
Speaker 1: at all to me, but maybe it is. And that's
Speaker 1: not something that you know, any of the investigators have
Speaker 1: brought up, is that like this obviously isn't the trail.
Speaker 1: Apparently that's what the trail looks like. So it would
Speaker 1: be pretty easy to just you know, think this other
Speaker 1: offshoot was the trail and get lost and before you
Speaker 1: know it, you realize, oh, it's you know, getting dark,
Speaker 1: the sun is setting. We have no idea where we are.
Speaker 1: Although in that instant, what do you do? You turn
Speaker 1: around and follow the trail you were just following back
Speaker 1: to the other trail and walk out that way, or
Speaker 1: if you have to camp camp on the trail. It
Speaker 1: seems like I just like, I don't know why. So
Speaker 1: for me, I don't think it's possible that they just
Speaker 1: got lost got lost. No, I think that one of
Speaker 1: them had been injured, at least at least one of them.
Speaker 1: See I disagree with that when when I looked at
Speaker 1: the map that which is another one of the great
Speaker 1: infographics that that somebody has put together, and there's this
Speaker 1: map that kind of plots out their course to the
Speaker 1: last point that we know about and then so if
Speaker 1: you follow that course north or northeast. This is the
Speaker 1: point that I was making earlier and we talked about,
Speaker 1: is that you come to another river, and that river
Speaker 1: is it's the Rio Changuinola. If I'm I pope, I'm
Speaker 1: pronouncing that correctly. Yeah. Okay, Well that's flowing downhill on
Speaker 1: the north side of that Continental divide, the mountain ridge
Speaker 1: that we were talking about. Okay, well, if they're if
Speaker 1: they're lost, I can see them being confused and one
Speaker 1: trying to convince the other no, listen, we need to
Speaker 1: follow this. This is totally going to take us home
Speaker 1: and correct me if I'm wrong. But they only took
Speaker 1: a couple of bottles of waters at right. Yeah, But
Speaker 1: the I guess the argument is those rivers would be
Speaker 1: kind of pure enough to I don't obviously not. You're
Speaker 1: probably gonna get giardia or something gardia or disenter. You're
Speaker 1: going to drink it, and you're gonna drink it and
Speaker 1: you're gonna get something and that's going to make you
Speaker 1: sick and ill. And so my my personal belief is
Speaker 1: that they got sick. I don't think somebody fell and
Speaker 1: broke a bone. I think they both got ill. And
Speaker 1: usually those kind of things, they tear up your guts
Speaker 1: and you can't walk. We're talking like a couple of
Speaker 1: days later, like they got lost and then got ill,
Speaker 1: because that doesn't it doesn't jardy. It takes a while.
Speaker 1: It's not like you drink it and suddenly it's like
Speaker 1: food poisoning. Two hours later you're vomiting. It takes a
Speaker 1: while to get hole in there. It takes a day
Speaker 1: or two. But if you were lost for a day
Speaker 1: or two, then you're incapacitated and you're stuck, and then
Speaker 1: the hydration sets in. No matter how much you drink
Speaker 1: out of the river that you're laying next to, you're
Speaker 1: gonna be dehydrated. And I think that one of them
Speaker 1: did pa the presence of mind as we know by
Speaker 1: the on again, off again scenario. But personally, as I
Speaker 1: looked at the photos of what we could see from
Speaker 1: the camera from it's the eighth day, correct, No, it's
Speaker 1: the seventh day. It's April eight. The seventh thing. These
Speaker 1: are all the black photos when I looked at because
Speaker 1: I pulled up the user manual on their camera. I
Speaker 1: wanted to know what does it take to use this thing.
Speaker 1: It's a simple point and click. It's got the little
Speaker 1: back and forth spring loaded dial on the front to
Speaker 1: turn it on and off, and then it's just a
Speaker 1: really simple push to turn on or to take a photo.
Speaker 1: So I can see either a somebody having spasms or
Speaker 1: a seizure of some kind and just essentially holding down
Speaker 1: repeatedly squeezing the button consciously or unconsciously, or if they're
Speaker 1: hardy deceased at that point and it's in their hand,
Speaker 1: and there's some kind of critter rustling around and checking
Speaker 1: them out because their corps and that means that they're
Speaker 1: fair game continually hitting that and that's why we're not
Speaker 1: seeing anything, because it's pointed up or it's rolled into
Speaker 1: one of them the hair of is it Chris Chris's hair?
Speaker 1: So the problem with that theory is that the camera
Speaker 1: was found neatly packed in the backpack. Oh, the camera
Speaker 1: was back in the background. Everything was in the backpack.
Speaker 1: So it wasn't like somebody just passed out. It wasn't
Speaker 1: like a seizure. It was and you know, people have
Speaker 1: said like, oh, well, maybe it was like floating down
Speaker 1: the river and like hitting stuff, and that we're setting
Speaker 1: it off, but like then it would have had like
Speaker 1: it would have been like super you know, when you
Speaker 1: accidentally take a picture of like the inside of your hand,
Speaker 1: the flashes like they would have been white pictures. They
Speaker 1: wouldn't have been black pictures. You wouldn't have had the hair.
Speaker 1: And also the I'm as saying, yeah it was and
Speaker 1: I I'm assuming this is not a watertight camera. So
Speaker 1: once the river, you can't use the flash anymore, or
Speaker 1: you can can't take pictures anymore. So I'm kind of
Speaker 1: thinking that they probably tried. Probably there was a helicopter
Speaker 1: or some such thing flying overhead and they were just
Speaker 1: trying to signal it. Yeah, I would agree with that. Um,
Speaker 1: you know again, the other problems I have with that
Speaker 1: are the pictures of you know what looked like different
Speaker 1: areas taken on that same night, the hair, the like
Speaker 1: fairly purposeful picture of whatever they've created on the rock there.
Speaker 1: And I'm not gonna again, we don't have to to
Speaker 1: go into it great length, but I don't know that
Speaker 1: they're different in areas. I could see those pictures being
Speaker 1: taken from pointing one direction, turning nine degrees and taking another.
Speaker 1: So I when you say a different area. I'm just
Speaker 1: trying to get the context. If it's not as if
Speaker 1: they roamed right, it's just a different direction that they
Speaker 1: were facing at the time. But but I mean, and
Speaker 1: the only reason that I think that they were stuck
Speaker 1: on the river bank and I caused I called out
Speaker 1: sickness is because I don't know if we've clarified this yet.
Speaker 1: But everything besides the backpack, every single thing was downstream. Well,
Speaker 1: the backpack was downstream too, everything everything downstream. I think
Speaker 1: it's it's pretty well accepted that a flash flood probably
Speaker 1: washed their stuff down. It could be that that's what
Speaker 1: finally did a man too, because the thing about it
Speaker 1: is as if you're out there in rough wilderness area,
Speaker 1: the best thing to do is to find a river
Speaker 1: and follow it down and then and so they were
Speaker 1: probably doing that. They're probably follow in this river, and
Speaker 1: they might have even thought they already were on the
Speaker 1: other side of the continental divide. They could have jumped
Speaker 1: to that conclusion is beyond me. But maybe they realized
Speaker 1: there's no way we're gonna get back to the top,
Speaker 1: and we'll just follow this until it comes to a village.
Speaker 1: I guess the flood comes along and well, that's kind
Speaker 1: of it for them. If you look at the pictures
Speaker 1: of that area, there are a lot of mountains, so
Speaker 1: it's possible that they you know, crusted another one and
Speaker 1: thought it was the same one, and you know, they
Speaker 1: turned around in the But you know, the other thing
Speaker 1: is there are a lot of like old huts. The
Speaker 1: area that they were kind of in, especially the area
Speaker 1: they were their remains were found in, is like grazing
Speaker 1: area or farmers walked through it. Obviously, farmers have found
Speaker 1: most of this stuff. Locals have found most of this stuff.
Speaker 1: So it's not as though they were in an unpopulated area.
Speaker 1: I mean, it wasn't like a city obviously, but like
Speaker 1: certainly in that in the time of ten days, people
Speaker 1: were like walking through that area. So you know, I
Speaker 1: have I have no good scope of how one could
Speaker 1: be so thoroughly lost with so many people looking for you.
Speaker 1: They would have had to have been mobile. The jungle
Speaker 1: is a big place. It is sort of sound quite
Speaker 1: well that's true too, so yeah, yeah, but yeah, people
Speaker 1: get lost. Is this this is not the first time
Speaker 1: this kind of thing has happened. I just gotta say,
Speaker 1: don't go out in the woods without a compass and
Speaker 1: some food and water and all kinds of other stuff
Speaker 1: and like emergency stuff. You know. Really, honestly, the best
Speaker 1: advice I could give anybody is they're like fifty cents,
Speaker 1: those survival whistles and those suckers are allowed. Yeah, those
Speaker 1: things are good. A flair a gun. You can get
Speaker 1: actually small flare aguns. You're not at the big, big,
Speaker 1: big steel ones to carry on ships. You can get
Speaker 1: small little flare aguns and stuff like that. That's also
Speaker 1: take some survival stuff with you stuff or chip Number
Speaker 1: one is don't go into a remote area you don't
Speaker 1: know of on your own, especial if you've hired a
Speaker 1: guide for the next of the day. That's what perplexes
Speaker 1: me so much about this is why they decided, because
Speaker 1: I mean, technically that trail does go on for hundreds
Speaker 1: and hundreds of kilometers, you know, through the jungle. But
Speaker 1: if you don't know what you're doing, why would you go,
Speaker 1: What the hell, let's just give it a show. That's
Speaker 1: you know, maybe maybe that's what I don't understand. I
Speaker 1: don't get it either. That's but at twenty one I
Speaker 1: might have made that decision. True that but um, maybe
Speaker 1: they thought, you know, we've got nothing else going on.
Speaker 1: This is the trail around here. Let's just go do
Speaker 1: a couple of miles of it and then come back
Speaker 1: and then we'll go to the major trek tomorrow. And
Speaker 1: they wind up like, and I've done this before. You
Speaker 1: go out in the woods. It's like, we're just gonna
Speaker 1: go a couple of miles, and then you get out
Speaker 1: there and it's like, let's go another mile, you know,
Speaker 1: Oh wait, let's go another mile, you know, I mean,
Speaker 1: come on, why not, you know, and you wind up
Speaker 1: going a lot further than you originally planned on. It's
Speaker 1: just really unfortunate situation. And then it's really sad too
Speaker 1: that they lasted so long that they're out there. I'm
Speaker 1: sure terrified. And if you follow the timeline, you may
Speaker 1: or may not have realized that the parents their parents
Speaker 1: went out with the search parties, which means that their
Speaker 1: parents could have been within a mile of them while
Speaker 1: they were still alive. And that's scary to me. You know,
Speaker 1: it's not like startling, Yeah it is. It's tragic. Tragic
Speaker 1: is definitely the word. And also, yeah, I don't know,
Speaker 1: it's just I'm sure the parents wondering about that all
Speaker 1: the time they do. I watched this documentary. It's all
Speaker 1: in Dutch, so I didn't understand it. But I did
Speaker 1: watch this documentary of a news crew from the Netherlands
Speaker 1: came with the family and films them walking the trail,
Speaker 1: and it's just kind of it's like pretty hard to watch.
Speaker 1: You don't understand what they're talking about, and they seem
Speaker 1: like in fine spirits, but it's like just to know,
Speaker 1: you know. They have this moment where they pause and
Speaker 1: they they're at this like waterfall, and they both just
Speaker 1: kind of stand there and they say, well, this is
Speaker 1: the last known place of our daughter, you know, and
Speaker 1: they show this picture and it's the picture of her
Speaker 1: like standing by a waterfall. You know. It's just that
Speaker 1: moment of like, oh man, yeah, those kind of emotions
Speaker 1: are in here. We all understand that people don't understand
Speaker 1: the language. That's a fun story for this week. Do
Speaker 1: you guys have any other theories you want to talk about? None? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't have much to contribute on this one. Really.
Speaker 1: I just think that, yeah, they got lost and they
Speaker 1: got turned around and they started doing the wrong things.
Speaker 1: That's what happens when you get lost is you get
Speaker 1: this idea in your head. Oh well, you know this
Speaker 1: is a way to go, and you can't get that
Speaker 1: fixation out of your head. I've been there. I mean
Speaker 1: I've Yeah, I've been lost in the woods and you
Speaker 1: make mistand just mistakes, compile pile on top of mistakes.
Speaker 1: The next thing you know, you're really lost. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and that's what happened to them. I'm pretty sure it's
Speaker 1: really too bad. They couldn't find a tree high enough
Speaker 1: to shinny up to get silk, average mountain high enough
Speaker 1: to get up on top of Yeah, I agree, connect
Speaker 1: with the phone call, that would have been good. There
Speaker 1: you go. So the infographics that we've been talking about
Speaker 1: UM as well as some links will be on our website,
Speaker 1: UM thinking sideways podcast dot com. You are probably not
Speaker 1: listening to us there. You're probably listening to us on iTunes.
Speaker 1: I think that's like where most of our traffic comes
Speaker 1: from these days. If you're on iTunes, leave us a
Speaker 1: comment in the rating, which you know, you guys are
Speaker 1: doing pretty good at. I guess it's how people find
Speaker 1: us other than it's how people find us. So we've
Speaker 1: got a lot of stuff. Yeah, so thank you. You
Speaker 1: may be trying to stream us on Stitcher. We're again
Speaker 1: working on that, trying, trying real hard to work with
Speaker 1: them on that. We've got some engineers on it. I
Speaker 1: promise you might be friends with us on Facebook. You
Speaker 1: might have liked our page. If you haven't, feel free
Speaker 1: to take a moment to do that. You may or
Speaker 1: may not follow us on Twitter. If you don't, that's okay.
Speaker 1: Don't have a Twitter, so I guess it's okay, but
Speaker 1: you should follow us if you have a Twitter. Every
Speaker 1: once in a while, tweet something. Usually when somebody's tweeted
Speaker 1: at us already, it's usually it. Uh. And if you
Speaker 1: want to talk about this case with any of us,
Speaker 1: or you have suggestions or anything like that, please feel
Speaker 1: free to send us an email Thinking Sideways podcast at
Speaker 1: gmail dot com. With that, I think we're gonna get
Speaker 1: out of here. You guys are both just like wide
Speaker 1: eyed and like, I don't want to think about life anymore. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I know this. This this is a rough story. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's very sad. Yeah, we're gonna have to do something
Speaker 1: completely weird next week. We've done enough of these lately.
Speaker 1: I need something completely different than people disappearing. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: think it's my turn next week, so I'll come up
Speaker 1: with something like that, and no more disappearances for a while.
Speaker 1: Can you involve clowns? No int squirrels. I'm okay with that.
Speaker 1: Love squirrels. That's totally awesome, very cool. Anyway, there's one
Speaker 1: lesson I'm taking away from this is stay the hell
Speaker 1: out of Panama. And also it's better not to leave
Speaker 1: the house at all. Yeah, yeah, I think we agree
Speaker 1: on that. Bye guys, all right, bye everybody, So long
Speaker 1: for this week.