Speaker 1: If we're struggling with depression or we're struggling with anxiety,
Speaker 1: action is actually one of the ways that we deal
Speaker 1: with those problems, not by trying to figure them out
Speaker 1: in our mind. Welcome to the one you feed Throughout time,
Speaker 1: great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have.
Speaker 1: Quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what
Speaker 1: you think ring true. And yet for many of us,
Speaker 1: our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity,
Speaker 1: self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't
Speaker 1: have instead of what we do. We think things that
Speaker 1: hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not
Speaker 1: just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent,
Speaker 1: and creative effort to make a life worth living. This
Speaker 1: podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in
Speaker 1: the right direction, how they feed their good wolf m
Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is
Speaker 1: Greg Creech, and author, poet, and one of the leading
Speaker 1: authorities on Japanese psychology in North America. His work has
Speaker 1: been featured in the Sun Magazine, Tricycle, Self, Utney Reader,
Speaker 1: Counseling Today, Cosmopolitan, and experience life. His newest book is
Speaker 1: the Art of Taking Action Lessons from Japanese Psychology. If
Speaker 1: you're getting value out of the show, please go to
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Speaker 1: This will ensure that all five episodes that are in
Speaker 1: the archive will remain free and that the show is
Speaker 1: here for other people who need it. Some other ways
Speaker 1: that you can support is is if you're interested in
Speaker 1: the book that we're discussing on today's episode, go to
Speaker 1: one you feed dot net and find the episode that
Speaker 1: we're talking about. There will be links to all of
Speaker 1: the author's books, and if you buy them through there,
Speaker 1: it's the same price to you, but we get a
Speaker 1: small amount. Also, you can go to one you feed
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Speaker 1: one you feed dot Net slash Facebook, which is where
Speaker 1: our Facebook group is and you can interact with other
Speaker 1: listeners of the show and get support in feeding your
Speaker 1: Good Wolf. Thanks again for listening, And here's the interview
Speaker 1: with Greg Creech. Hi Greg, Welcome to the show. Hi Eric,
Speaker 1: it's a pleasure to be on ther show. Your most
Speaker 1: recent book is called The Art of Taking Action Lessons
Speaker 1: from Japanese Psychology, and I loved it. It's very much
Speaker 1: in line with a lot of the things we talked
Speaker 1: about on the show. A phrase I use very often
Speaker 1: as you can't think your way into right action. Sometimes
Speaker 1: you have to act your way into right thinking. And
Speaker 1: that's a pretty much what a lot of the book
Speaker 1: is about. So we'll go into all that in just
Speaker 1: a moment, but let's start like we always do, with
Speaker 1: the parable. There's a grandfather who's talking with his grandson.
Speaker 1: He says, in life, there are two wolves inside of
Speaker 1: us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf,
Speaker 1: which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and
Speaker 1: the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like
Speaker 1: greed and hatred and fear. And the grandson stops and
Speaker 1: he thinks about it for a second and looks up
Speaker 1: at his grandfather and he says, well, grandfather, which one wins?
Speaker 1: And the grandfather says, the one you feed. So I'd
Speaker 1: like to start off by asking you what that parable
Speaker 1: means to you in your life and in the work
Speaker 1: that you do. Well, Thank you Eric and Um, I
Speaker 1: like that herble, and I think it has a lot
Speaker 1: to say, and I'd like to make just two observations
Speaker 1: because we could actually spend a lot of time talking
Speaker 1: about it. But the first is that in the grandfather's
Speaker 1: role of teaching the grandchild, he mentions that there are
Speaker 1: two wolves, and so he's making it very clear that
Speaker 1: within us we have the capacity to be selfish and
Speaker 1: greedy and mean and impatient, that that's part of our character,
Speaker 1: and I think that it's really important for us to
Speaker 1: recognize that. I think that probably one of the most
Speaker 1: important steps in terms of dealing with that wolf is
Speaker 1: the recognition that that wolf exists. And so if we
Speaker 1: if we aren't aware of the existence of that wolf,
Speaker 1: then I think we have very little chance of being
Speaker 1: able to work with that wolf. The second thing that
Speaker 1: I was thinking about is really based on the last
Speaker 1: four words of the grandfather, the one you feed. And
Speaker 1: of course, if these were real wolves, we could think
Speaker 1: of the term food literally, but they're not real wolves,
Speaker 1: the wolves that are part of our character or our spirit. Um,
Speaker 1: So what does it mean to give a wolf food
Speaker 1: in that type of situation? And I would argue that
Speaker 1: one of the main ways that we would feed a
Speaker 1: wolf is actually by how we act in the world,
Speaker 1: how we engage in the world. That if we engage
Speaker 1: with others in the world with kindness and generosity and compassion,
Speaker 1: that to me is how we feed that wolf. And
Speaker 1: if we engage selfishly or with anger or based on greed,
Speaker 1: then we're feeding that wolf. So I think that in
Speaker 1: many ways, the way we feed those wolves is based
Speaker 1: on our conduct in the world. Yeah, I agree. Early
Speaker 1: in the book, you have a line where you're discussing
Speaker 1: how most of us think of the Eastern wisdom as
Speaker 1: being very contemplative. You know, I think meditation is what
Speaker 1: a lot of us think of, or perhaps yoga, but
Speaker 1: you say there's also a foundation of Eastern wisdom that's
Speaker 1: directed towards action, right, And I think that our Western
Speaker 1: society has really gravitated towards Eastern philosophy and Zen and
Speaker 1: Buddhism in many ways because of the meditative and self
Speaker 1: reflective nature, uh of of that approach to life. And
Speaker 1: that was really how I started as well, and I
Speaker 1: think it's very important. But there is another approach and
Speaker 1: and many years ago I actually had an opportunity to
Speaker 1: work with Tick not Han, the Zen teacher back in
Speaker 1: the nies. In fact, I traveled with him as his
Speaker 1: sound recording person for about six months, and he was
Speaker 1: the person that introduced me to this concept of taking
Speaker 1: your practice off your cushion, because up until that point,
Speaker 1: I think I really saw Buddhism and Zen as contemplative practices.
Speaker 1: And it wasn't. They weren't contemplative practices, but he really
Speaker 1: emphasized the idea that, um, you bring your practice into
Speaker 1: your life when you get off your cushion, by the
Speaker 1: way you answer the phone, or the way you wash
Speaker 1: the dishes, or the way you have dinner with your family,
Speaker 1: and so to me, those are aspects of our life
Speaker 1: that are involved action and our conduct and um, not
Speaker 1: just meditation contemplation. Another thing that you talk about is
Speaker 1: how the Western mental health perspective on the world has
Speaker 1: largely ignored action and really focuses more on talk therapy
Speaker 1: or self analysis and that sort of thing, whereas this
Speaker 1: Eastern philosophy, again is focused on action. You've got a
Speaker 1: line that says taking action is one of the most
Speaker 1: important skills you can master if you wish to maintain
Speaker 1: good mental health. Right, and I think that there is
Speaker 1: a kind of underlying assumption in a lot of Western
Speaker 1: mental health, not all, but a lot of it, which
Speaker 1: is that we have to figure out life in our
Speaker 1: minds before we can act, and we have to somehow
Speaker 1: fix or work through particular feelings or problem thoughts before
Speaker 1: we can do the things we need to do in
Speaker 1: our life. And I think what we see in the
Speaker 1: kinds of mental health processes that come from the East,
Speaker 1: and specifically from Japan, is that action is actually a
Speaker 1: way of dealing with those kinds of problems. That if
Speaker 1: we're struggling with depression or we're struggling with anxiety, that
Speaker 1: action is actually one of the ways that we deal
Speaker 1: with those problems, not by trying to figure them out
Speaker 1: in our mind first in this kind of linear way,
Speaker 1: but that taking action itself can actually be the treatment
Speaker 1: and solution to many of those problems. I couldn't agree more.
Speaker 1: I think, you know, the idea of thinking your way
Speaker 1: out of depression or anxiety is challenging because the very
Speaker 1: thing that does the thinking is the thing that's in
Speaker 1: some cases, you know, a little bit on the broke side.
Speaker 1: And uh, I've always found that for me, action is
Speaker 1: so important as a saying I use a lot, which
Speaker 1: is depression hates a moving target. I think that's great,
Speaker 1: and and I think part of what isn't often recognized
Speaker 1: is that by continuing to focus, or if you're a therapist,
Speaker 1: by having your client focus on what's going on in
Speaker 1: your mind or your feeling state, we're actually taking that
Speaker 1: energy that that we call attention and we're turning it inside.
Speaker 1: And so a lot of what you see in the
Speaker 1: Japanese psychology is really seeing our attention as needing to
Speaker 1: engage in the world, whether that be you know, doing
Speaker 1: work in the world, or whether it be simply keeping
Speaker 1: our focus when we're taking walk on our surroundings, on
Speaker 1: the leaves and the grass and the lighting, instead of
Speaker 1: getting caught up in our thoughts and our underlying emotional state.
Speaker 1: And in your book, you're really bringing together three different
Speaker 1: Japanese I'll just call them approaches. Right, there's the Marita
Speaker 1: therapy that you've talked about. There's kaizen, and then there's
Speaker 1: um also did you say it Nikon? That's correct, And
Speaker 1: so tell me just very briefly about what each of
Speaker 1: those are and then how they work together. Well, Marita
Speaker 1: therapy is kind of the action oriented side, and it
Speaker 1: was originally developed as a treatment for kind of severe anxiety,
Speaker 1: and a lot of what we've just been tak talking
Speaker 1: about in the last few minutes, really our principles from
Speaker 1: rate the therapy and what we've done is almost kind
Speaker 1: of developed that even further into a concept that is
Speaker 1: the name of the journal I edit called thirty thousand days,
Speaker 1: and thirty thousand days is the average amount of days
Speaker 1: that each of us has to live. And so the
Speaker 1: idea is to really make our focus what we want
Speaker 1: to do with our life, what's important, what gives our
Speaker 1: life meaning, and not to let our internal feeling state
Speaker 1: or some type of problems with our thinking or recurring
Speaker 1: thoughts interfere with being able to move forward on the
Speaker 1: things that are important in our life. And so in
Speaker 1: Rita therapy, rather than having to fix our feelings of
Speaker 1: depression or anxiety, UM, we developed the skill of coexisting
Speaker 1: with those feelings. So, for example, if you're, let's say,
Speaker 1: have anxiety about making a public presentation in front of
Speaker 1: a group of people at work, UM, instead of trying
Speaker 1: to get yourself to feel confident and not feel anxious,
Speaker 1: you accept the fact that you're feeling anxious, and you
Speaker 1: take those anxious feelings with you while you get up
Speaker 1: in front of the podium and make your presentation. And
Speaker 1: I know that that sounds very simple, and when you're
Speaker 1: actually in that state, it doesn't feel very simple, but
Speaker 1: it actually is very doable to be able to coexist
Speaker 1: with those feelings and yet have our action be based
Speaker 1: on our purpose or what is important for us to do.
Speaker 1: So that's kind of a in a nutshell of Marita therapy.
Speaker 1: The second thing you mentioned is an approach called Kaisen,
Speaker 1: which originally actually came back in World War Two from
Speaker 1: an approach to rebuilding the Japanese industrial system after it
Speaker 1: was decimated by the war. And again, in simplified terms,
Speaker 1: it's the idea of incremental change incremental improvements. So the
Speaker 1: way that we use this in a therapeutic setting or
Speaker 1: in a personal setting is really the importance of taking
Speaker 1: small steps. In my book, I really emphasize that taking
Speaker 1: small steps gives us momentum. So if I'm trying to
Speaker 1: write a book and I'm hoping to write something that
Speaker 1: will be the equivalent in length of war and peace, um,
Speaker 1: I start by maybe writing one paragraph a day or
Speaker 1: even one sentence a day. And obviously that's not going
Speaker 1: to get me very far if I'm trying to write
Speaker 1: a book that's going to be a thousand pages. But
Speaker 1: what it does do is if I can do that
Speaker 1: every day, it starts giving me momentum. And once I'm
Speaker 1: in a flow of writing, um, even if I've just
Speaker 1: committed to writing one paragraph, I may end up writing
Speaker 1: two paragraphs or two pages or ten pages because I
Speaker 1: was able to sit down and actually start writing. And
Speaker 1: I think Kaisen is all about momentum and taking those
Speaker 1: small steps. And then finally you mentioned Nikehon, which is
Speaker 1: really the other side of the coin. It is the
Speaker 1: quiet reflective approach that has to do with going inside
Speaker 1: and reflecting in our life and exam meaning how we've
Speaker 1: lived and specifically the relationships that we have. And it's
Speaker 1: um an amazing method for cultivating gratitude and for kind
Speaker 1: of shifting from what I would call a complaint based
Speaker 1: life to um a life based on authentic appreciation and
Speaker 1: gratitude for what we have and for just our existence itself. Excellent.
Speaker 1: Will come back around to Nikon in particular, and there's
Speaker 1: a very structured method that you can use so we'll
Speaker 1: talk about that in a little bit. I'd like to
Speaker 1: focus right now on kind of what you just said
Speaker 1: about a complaint focused life, and I'm just gonna read
Speaker 1: something you said. You said when we find ourselves in
Speaker 1: situations that stimulate emotional discomfort, we immediately look to escape
Speaker 1: from the discomfort, just as if it was summer heat
Speaker 1: or winter cold. We often use one of three strategies, avoidance, resignation,
Speaker 1: or complaining. I think avoidance a lot of us kind
Speaker 1: of have an idea of what that's like, whether we're
Speaker 1: trying to avoid by watching TV or taking drugs or
Speaker 1: doing different things. But let's talk about resignation and complaining.
Speaker 1: In Morito therapy, one of the key principles is this
Speaker 1: Japanese term autogamama, which means to accept things as they are.
Speaker 1: But accepting things as they are isn't necessarily passive. It
Speaker 1: doesn't mean, for instance, that if we receive a diagnosis
Speaker 1: of cancer that we simply say, well, I've got cancer,
Speaker 1: I guess I'm going to dial just basically lay around
Speaker 1: in bed until my life is over. That would be
Speaker 1: how I would characterize resignation um whereas acceptance from the
Speaker 1: perspective that we haven't. Morito therapy means that we have
Speaker 1: to accept things as they are. So here, I received
Speaker 1: this diagnosis of a serious illness, and the first thing
Speaker 1: that I need to do before I can take action
Speaker 1: is to accept the reality of my circumstances. Once I've
Speaker 1: accepted the reality of microcircumstances, then I can think about, well,
Speaker 1: is there something I can do about this? What's controllable,
Speaker 1: what isn't controllable in situation. So, in other words, acceptance
Speaker 1: becomes a way a precursor in many cases to taking action,
Speaker 1: whereas resignation is almost always leads to inaction. You've got
Speaker 1: a line where you say that in resignation, you know,
Speaker 1: rather than stepping back and observing our feelings, we are
Speaker 1: overcome by them, right, I think it. It's very easy,
Speaker 1: particularly when we're faced with something really difficult or tragic
Speaker 1: or crisis, to turn our attention and our energy inward,
Speaker 1: and that means we get caught up in our feelings
Speaker 1: and caught up in our thoughts um and we can
Speaker 1: easily go through long periods of time without taking any
Speaker 1: kind of constructive action in response to the situation because
Speaker 1: all of our energy is going inside. And I think
Speaker 1: part of what we're trying to do, and part of
Speaker 1: the unique character of uh moretotherapy and Japanese psychology is
Speaker 1: the recognition that that energy, that energy for example, of
Speaker 1: anxiety or of neuros, this is actually valuable. It's not
Speaker 1: something we want to get rid of. The question becomes
Speaker 1: can we channel it in a constructive way instead of
Speaker 1: just basically having its cycle inside and create more and
Speaker 1: more suffering for us? And what about complaining? Well, Complaining
Speaker 1: is probably something that one of the most common things
Speaker 1: when I do a book signing for my books on
Speaker 1: Nicoon is for someone to come up to me at
Speaker 1: the end and say, um, you know that was that
Speaker 1: was a great presentation, and I'm going to buy your
Speaker 1: book because my wife or my husband really needs this.
Speaker 1: But I think that again, if we think about just
Speaker 1: even the way we express ourselves as energy, complaining really
Speaker 1: has very little positive results to it, right, And what
Speaker 1: it does is it keeps us stuck in looking at
Speaker 1: the problems or difficulties in our life, the things that
Speaker 1: are causing us trouble. Um complaining is you know, it's
Speaker 1: almost if you think going back to are parable about
Speaker 1: which wolf do you feed um when we complain. I
Speaker 1: think what we do is we feed the wolf of complaining,
Speaker 1: because the more we complain, the more that wolf is nourished.
Speaker 1: And so it's it's very hard, if not impossible, to
Speaker 1: not complain at all. But I think what we can
Speaker 1: do is focus on what we can do instead of complaining,
Speaker 1: which is to basically be able to recognize the things
Speaker 1: that are supporting us, the way that we're cared for
Speaker 1: the things that are going well in our life, and
Speaker 1: to express that, whether it be to you know, our
Speaker 1: wife or husband, or or Chris who's in there working
Speaker 1: and for you right now. To be able to express
Speaker 1: those things um, which is channeling that energy in a
Speaker 1: different way and taking our attention away from complaining about
Speaker 1: problems in their life. We've had several guests on who
Speaker 1: are proponents of are one of the people who sort
Speaker 1: of invented acceptance and commitment therapy, which really has a
Speaker 1: lot in common with with what I'm hearing here. It's
Speaker 1: it's very much that idea of you're going to have
Speaker 1: certain emotions and feelings, that's okay, deal with them, look
Speaker 1: at the values in your life, and then take the
Speaker 1: actions based on those. So there's a lot of similarity there,
Speaker 1: and so I think listeners of the show will will
Speaker 1: find a through line in that. Yeah, I do think
Speaker 1: that that, particularly with the Marita at therapy aspect of
Speaker 1: Japanese psychology, there is clearly a lot of overlap between
Speaker 1: that and a CT. We we've actually trained people here
Speaker 1: who have also trained in a CT and they see
Speaker 1: that as well. So one of the main tenants of
Speaker 1: Marita therapy, you say, is that our internal experience, feelings
Speaker 1: and thoughts is basically uncontrollable by our will, right, And
Speaker 1: I think that, Uh, it's it's the recognition, for instance,
Speaker 1: that if I'm feeling upset, if I'm feeling depressed, if
Speaker 1: I'm feeling anxious, um, I can't really control that feeling.
Speaker 1: I can't simply will myself not to be anxious before
Speaker 1: I stand up in front of a group and make
Speaker 1: a presentation. And so there's a lot of methodology in
Speaker 1: the West which really is about trying to control our
Speaker 1: internal experience. Um. But if you go to the for instance,
Speaker 1: Zen practice, meditation and Zen, what we're really just trying
Speaker 1: to do is become aware of what's coming up. We're
Speaker 1: not trying to get ourselves to think positive thoughts and
Speaker 1: to not think negative thoughts. We're just trying to be
Speaker 1: able to notice how those whatever thoughts, how they come
Speaker 1: up during our period of meditation, and we watch them arise,
Speaker 1: and we watched the feelings that come with them, and
Speaker 1: then we watch them dissolve. And I think what we're
Speaker 1: trying to do in read a therapy is very similar
Speaker 1: to that, except instead of doing it during meditation, we're
Speaker 1: doing it throughout our day um, which is to notice
Speaker 1: are feeling of impatience or a feeling of anger, or
Speaker 1: a feeling of anxiety about something, and just allow those
Speaker 1: feelings to be what they are, but not to allow
Speaker 1: them to keep us from moving forward and taking action
Speaker 1: that's required by the situation that we're in. And that's
Speaker 1: really the key. In fact, one of the ways that
Speaker 1: I define realistic action is action that is based on
Speaker 1: the needs of the situation. Right, so, if if your
Speaker 1: little one year old child is at the table and
Speaker 1: she's fills for milk, um, what are the needs of
Speaker 1: the situation? And that determines what action you take. It's
Speaker 1: not determined by how we feel, even though that may
Speaker 1: play a role in the situation, but many of us
Speaker 1: use our feeling state as the primary criteria for what
Speaker 1: action we take. So you think about what happens when
Speaker 1: you open the refrigerator door. You're thinking, what do I
Speaker 1: feel like eating? Right? Um, But there's other more important
Speaker 1: questions like what needs to be eaten, there's things that
Speaker 1: are about to spoil or based on my own diet,
Speaker 1: and what I feel like is healthy to me? Um,
Speaker 1: what should I eat? Right? So it's the question of
Speaker 1: what do I feel like eating may come up almost automatically,
Speaker 1: but that's because many of us are simply tuned in
Speaker 1: to our feeling state in a way that we give
Speaker 1: it that power to assert itself and almost make those
Speaker 1: decisions about how we act. Yeah, you say that the
Speaker 1: preoccupation with our internal experience, thought, and feelings tends to
Speaker 1: intensify our suffering while distractness from activity that can give
Speaker 1: our life meaning and purpose. And that rings so true
Speaker 1: to me. I mean, as I've as I've gone on
Speaker 1: in life, I've I've found that the big thing that
Speaker 1: has changed for me is the ability to take action
Speaker 1: based on calum values or what the what the situation
Speaker 1: requires versus my mood. For a large part of my life,
Speaker 1: particularly when I was an addict. I mean, how I
Speaker 1: felt was the primary dry ever of all my actions,
Speaker 1: and it did not turn out well. I think it
Speaker 1: would be one way to look at it. If you
Speaker 1: were able to actually map out your feelings over even
Speaker 1: just let's say the last year, you would see that
Speaker 1: it's a It's a tremendous roller coaster for most of us, right,
Speaker 1: I mean, think about relationships. You know, we could be
Speaker 1: madly in love with our partner one minute and and
Speaker 1: the next minute we have this tremendous anger about something
Speaker 1: they said or did. Um At one minute we're thinking, oh,
Speaker 1: I'm so lucky to be with this person, and the
Speaker 1: next minute we're thinking, I got to get out of
Speaker 1: this relationship. And so what we see is that our
Speaker 1: thoughts and our feelings are constantly shifting, you know, in
Speaker 1: this roller coaster like way. And if we base our
Speaker 1: actions on that roller coaster, then um, we end up
Speaker 1: with a pretty chaotic approach to life. But if we
Speaker 1: can learn to recognize those thoughts and feelings, UM, accept them,
Speaker 1: let them essentially be what they are, but respond way
Speaker 1: you describe towards values or purpose or what the situation needs, UM,
Speaker 1: we can develop a life that is much more likely
Speaker 1: to provide meeting and to provide a contribution to the
Speaker 1: world in our community and our family. And in order
Speaker 1: to do that, one of the challenges right particularly in
Speaker 1: modern society, has taken the time to figure those things out,
Speaker 1: to stop long enough and think about what's important and
Speaker 1: how do we want to spend our time, and how
Speaker 1: do we want to you know, what do we want
Speaker 1: to foster in our lives? And and you talk about
Speaker 1: that in the book, and I think it's just sort
Speaker 1: of a very common thing that we all wrestle with,
Speaker 1: is is taking the time to be aware and pay
Speaker 1: enough attention to think through that absolutely and I think, um,
Speaker 1: you know, we have a little h hermitage. We call
Speaker 1: it the Tea House, that's about four feet up the
Speaker 1: hill from the main house here, and people will come
Speaker 1: and they'll sometimes spend two days or three days. I'm
Speaker 1: just in solitude there and it's really a wonderful thing
Speaker 1: because it allows you to step back from your life
Speaker 1: and really question how you're living your life and how
Speaker 1: you want to move forward. And I think that that's
Speaker 1: absolutely essential, because otherwise we just get caught up in
Speaker 1: the business of our day to day lives and UM,
Speaker 1: the next thing we know, you know, the it's the
Speaker 1: end of the year. We always have that response right
Speaker 1: in October and November, we think, oh my goodness, the
Speaker 1: year is almost over. Where did it go? Um? And
Speaker 1: where it went is to just living every day And
Speaker 1: the important thing is to have these um periods on
Speaker 1: a regular basis as much as we can. And it's
Speaker 1: not you can't always take two or three days, but
Speaker 1: sometimes you can take an evening or you can take
Speaker 1: a Sunday morning for a few hours where you can
Speaker 1: really step back from your life, reflect on where you've been,
Speaker 1: what's important to you, what are your values, and make
Speaker 1: some choices or decisions about um what you need to
Speaker 1: do to move forward, which may involve some significant changes
Speaker 1: in your life. Yeah, you've got a part where you
Speaker 1: talk about asking yourself what is my purpose? Is a
Speaker 1: good way to do that? And I, you know, I've
Speaker 1: got a similar for me. I sort of ask my off,
Speaker 1: like what am I doing right now? And is what
Speaker 1: I'm doing important to me? And you say, be careful
Speaker 1: if you answer this question. It's dangerous because if you
Speaker 1: ask it while watching TV, surfing the web, or reading
Speaker 1: in a romance and novel, you may be hard pressed
Speaker 1: to come up with a justification for what you're doing. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we we don't always like to be confronted with the
Speaker 1: reality of how we're living or how we're using our time.
Speaker 1: But I think that that's particularly important. You know. I
Speaker 1: had met with somebody the other day who who was
Speaker 1: an old student of mine that I had worked with
Speaker 1: many decades ago act actually, and uh, we kind of reconnected,
Speaker 1: and he was saying that, you know, um, I'm really
Speaker 1: going to take some time at this point to figure
Speaker 1: out what I want to do with my life. And
Speaker 1: I said that's great, and he said, but I'm not
Speaker 1: going to rush through this. You know, I'm going to
Speaker 1: take my time. And I said, well, you know, you're
Speaker 1: seventy seven years old and so, which is true. And
Speaker 1: and I said, you have to really think about, um,
Speaker 1: whether you really want to take your time doing this
Speaker 1: or not. But I don't want to give people the
Speaker 1: impression that if you're sixty seven or forty seven or
Speaker 1: thirty seven, that there's less of an urgency, because to me,
Speaker 1: there's always an urgency to the question of what is
Speaker 1: it that that I want to do with my life. Um,
Speaker 1: we should always consider that to be one of the
Speaker 1: most important questions that we can ask, and always devote
Speaker 1: a certain amount of energy and time to answering that question,
Speaker 1: because if we do, we can keep shifting our life,
Speaker 1: you know, kind of like a sailboat trying to work
Speaker 1: with the wind or the breeze. Um. But if we don't,
Speaker 1: we easily get caught up in the habit of living
Speaker 1: the way that we've been living last year or the
Speaker 1: year before. Um, And before we know what, we are
Speaker 1: seventy seven and we look back and we haven't done
Speaker 1: the things that are important for us to do in
Speaker 1: our life. You say, One of the puzzling lessons I
Speaker 1: have learned is that more often than not, I do
Speaker 1: not feel like doing most of the things that need
Speaker 1: to and I puzzle over that all the time. Also,
Speaker 1: the one that I talked about on the show and
Speaker 1: I talked about with friends is exercise. I mean, literally,
Speaker 1: every time I've ever done it, I have been happy.
Speaker 1: I did it without fail. It's a and yet still
Speaker 1: it's a it's a challenge, and I am just sort
Speaker 1: of puzzled by that. Do you have any theories on
Speaker 1: on why that is, or do you just kind of
Speaker 1: accept it as is and and work to counter it.
Speaker 1: I think your point is really well taken, and I
Speaker 1: think exercise is really the perfect example of that, because, um,
Speaker 1: I would would also say that the time when I
Speaker 1: go swimming or go biking or go to the gym
Speaker 1: to work out, um, halfway through or towards the end
Speaker 1: of my workout or after the workout, I'm I'm really
Speaker 1: feeling great, and I'm thinking, I'm so glad I did this,
Speaker 1: and you know, and I my blood is moving around,
Speaker 1: and my body feels stronger and and my respiratory system
Speaker 1: is stronger. Um. And yet even though I'm getting reinforcement
Speaker 1: for that, uh, the next day will come and I'll
Speaker 1: think I don't really want to get any current right right,
Speaker 1: and and so I think, like, like, what kind of
Speaker 1: mind do I have that I can't finally learn this lesson?
Speaker 1: But what we can do is recognize that that voice
Speaker 1: that basically says you don't really feel like going to
Speaker 1: the gym, you don't really feel like getting on your
Speaker 1: bike and riding down the road right now, UM, that
Speaker 1: that's just a voice. It's just a thought, right, And
Speaker 1: we can use that wisdom that we have learned where
Speaker 1: we do know that it's not just that exercise is
Speaker 1: good for us, but that we act it actually will
Speaker 1: often shift our feelings, it will often shift our thoughts.
Speaker 1: So we have a maxim and I think it's it's
Speaker 1: also in the book called Lead with the Body, and
Speaker 1: it's it's really the solution to the situation that that
Speaker 1: we're talking about right now, which is when you don't
Speaker 1: feel like exercising, and when you have this voice saying,
Speaker 1: you know what, you didn't sleep last night and you've
Speaker 1: had a long day, just relax and zone out in
Speaker 1: front of HBO or something that, UM, you lead with
Speaker 1: the body. In other words, you allow your body to
Speaker 1: basically get up, walk over to the door, put on
Speaker 1: your jogging shoes, you put on your t shirt, and
Speaker 1: all the while you can go ahead and have that
Speaker 1: the feeling state, the emotional state of feeling lazy and tired,
Speaker 1: have that voice in your head, but your body essentially
Speaker 1: gets your started. And UM, we can trust the body
Speaker 1: in many ways much more than we can trust the
Speaker 1: mind in those situations. UM. And we find out as
Speaker 1: you just describe it, once we get out there, once
Speaker 1: we're exercising. UM, the vast majority of time, we feel
Speaker 1: good about what we did and we're actually doing something
Speaker 1: that's really good for us. Yeah. The other thing you
Speaker 1: talk about, you you say this, you say, if you
Speaker 1: don't feel like doing your taxes now, just accept that
Speaker 1: you'll probably never feel like doing them. And that's been
Speaker 1: so helpful for me, because I'll procrastinate something that I
Speaker 1: want to do, and then I'll think, am I really
Speaker 1: going to be more ready to do it next Wednesday?
Speaker 1: Am I gonna want to do it next Wednesday? I'm
Speaker 1: never going to want to do it, And that helps
Speaker 1: me just to go ahead and then do it instead
Speaker 1: of putting off. That's an understanding that has been very
Speaker 1: helpful to me, and I'm glad about that. And I
Speaker 1: think it's just a it's just a truth, you know,
Speaker 1: that we kid ourselves thinking that because I don't feel
Speaker 1: like washing the dishes now, that I'm going to feel
Speaker 1: like washing the dishes later on tonight or tomorrow or
Speaker 1: exercise or Texas. Texas is I would use as an
Speaker 1: example because it's one of my things. Um as well
Speaker 1: and uh and so and but one of the things
Speaker 1: that I find is that even with Texas, which is
Speaker 1: high up on my list for things that I would
Speaker 1: really rather not to. Once I actually am doing them,
Speaker 1: I will have at least little strings of moments where
Speaker 1: I think, this isn't so bad, um. And so I
Speaker 1: also times we'll use this phrase that the anticipation is
Speaker 1: often worse than the consummation, right, So so we suffer.
Speaker 1: We suffer more from that whole process of trying to
Speaker 1: avoid doing what we need to do. And when we
Speaker 1: get in there and do it, and this isn't always true,
Speaker 1: but it's true in many cases, once we're actually doing it,
Speaker 1: we often think, you know this, this really wasn't so bad, um.
Speaker 1: And so we can learn from that. We can we
Speaker 1: can recognize that we can save ourselves some suffering by
Speaker 1: doing what we need to do now or in a
Speaker 1: timely way, rather than procrastinating and putting it off and
Speaker 1: and adding to essentially all of that time that we
Speaker 1: can suffer before we ultimately have to do the thing. Anyway,
Speaker 1: I agree, all those things are things that I learn
Speaker 1: and continue to learn and and have made such a difference.
Speaker 1: You've got another book that is coming out, I think
Speaker 1: you said next month. What's the title of that. It's
Speaker 1: called Question Your Life nikhon self reflection and the transformation
Speaker 1: of our stories. And this is the other side of
Speaker 1: the work that I've mentioned earlier called Nikon. It's really
Speaker 1: a method of self reflection where we can step back
Speaker 1: from our life and we can reflect on our conduct
Speaker 1: and our behavior, on the way we've lived, and very
Speaker 1: specifically on our relationships with the people that really we've
Speaker 1: had meaningful relationships with over the course of our life. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I love that idea of transforming our stories um or
Speaker 1: near the end of time. But why don't you basically
Speaker 1: tell us the sort of three steps or the three
Speaker 1: questions of Nikon as kind of a way to wrap
Speaker 1: this interview up, and then listeners could be on the
Speaker 1: lookout for your new book and maybe we'll have you
Speaker 1: back to a discuss it in more detail. Okay, well,
Speaker 1: thanks Eric. I perceived this process as a method of research.
Speaker 1: In other words, you're actually using your life as your
Speaker 1: research project, and the three questions that you're using you
Speaker 1: might think of it as data collection. If you want
Speaker 1: to think of it as research, the first question is
Speaker 1: what have I received from others? So if you're reflecting
Speaker 1: on just the least the past day, the past twenty
Speaker 1: four hours. You would just think of everybody. If you're
Speaker 1: reflecting on your best friend or someone at work, you
Speaker 1: would think of them in particularly what have I received
Speaker 1: from them? The second question is what have I given
Speaker 1: to them? So you're looking at the other side, Um,
Speaker 1: this is what I received from them, This is what
Speaker 1: I gave in return. And the third question is really
Speaker 1: the hardest, most difficult question, and that is what troubles
Speaker 1: and difficulties have I caused them? Um? And that's a
Speaker 1: very difficult question for two reasons. One is it's not
Speaker 1: the kind of thing that we generally notice as easily
Speaker 1: as when other people are causing us trouble. And secondly, um,
Speaker 1: it it basically tends to share away some of our
Speaker 1: self image that we have as a nicer, a good
Speaker 1: person when we're looking at how we did something that
Speaker 1: was mean or selfish, and so we're kind of back
Speaker 1: to the original parable about that wolf. That question is
Speaker 1: about recognizing the ways in which that wolf at that
Speaker 1: moment has basically come to the forefront of the way
Speaker 1: we're living. It's not a pleasant thing to see, but
Speaker 1: it's a really important thing to recognize. Well, Greg, thank
Speaker 1: you so much for taking the time I loved the
Speaker 1: book that is out, which is called the Art of
Speaker 1: Taking Actions Lessons from Japanese Psychology. Will have links to
Speaker 1: the book on our website. I've I've really enjoyed the
Speaker 1: book a lot, and I've had a great time talking
Speaker 1: with you. Well, thank you, Eric, and I've enjoyed being
Speaker 1: on your show and I've enjoyed our conversation, and I
Speaker 1: wish you a great deal of luck in your continued
Speaker 1: work doing this wonderful show, which is really a service
Speaker 1: to all of us out here who get to listen
Speaker 1: to all this wisdom. Well, thank you, take care, thank you. Okay,
Speaker 1: bye bye. If what you just heard was helpful to you,
Speaker 1: please consider making a donation to the One you Feed podcast.
Speaker 1: Head over to one you Feed dot net slash support