1
00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:34,159
Speaker 1: Take a deep breath in through your nose. Holds it.

2
00:00:36,760 --> 00:00:47,800
Speaker 2: Now, release slowly again, deep in, helle.

3
00:00:50,960 --> 00:01:05,440
Speaker 1: Hold release, repeating internally to yourself as you connect to

4
00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:19,360
Speaker 1: my voice. I am deeply well. I am deeply well.

5
00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:33,080
Speaker 1: I am deeply I'm Debbie Brown and this is the

6
00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:35,160
Speaker 1: Deeply Well Podcast.

7
00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:46,000
Speaker 3: Welcome to Deeply Well, a soft place to land on

8
00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:49,960
Speaker 3: your journey. A podcast for those that are curious, creative,

9
00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:54,360
Speaker 3: and ready to expand in higher consciousness and self care.

10
00:01:55,240 --> 00:01:59,000
Speaker 3: This is where we heal, this is where we transcend.

11
00:01:59,800 --> 00:02:03,560
Speaker 3: Hello everyone, welcome back to the show. As always, I'm

12
00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:07,520
Speaker 3: Debbie Brown. Thank you, thank you for being here. Today's

13
00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:11,000
Speaker 3: episode is going to be a little different. We have

14
00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:14,800
Speaker 3: a special episode plan for today. So this October, some

15
00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:18,720
Speaker 3: of you may remember that we gathered for the fourth

16
00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:23,080
Speaker 3: annual Mental Wealth Expo that was created by my dear

17
00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:25,959
Speaker 3: brothers Charlomagne the God. It's an event that I am

18
00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:29,960
Speaker 3: so proud to be a part of and an organization,

19
00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:34,000
Speaker 3: the Mental Wealth Alliance, that I'm just so proud to

20
00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:38,480
Speaker 3: be a board member of. So this incredible event has

21
00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:42,440
Speaker 3: been happening for the last four years. We bring thousands

22
00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:45,160
Speaker 3: of people together, usually from all over the tri state

23
00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:49,760
Speaker 3: area specifically, and it is a day full of just

24
00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:56,480
Speaker 3: really powerful information, opportunity to get connected, treatment, and everything

25
00:02:56,600 --> 00:03:01,600
Speaker 3: that is expansive to the conversation happening in our homes

26
00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:05,120
Speaker 3: around mental health and our communities around mental health and

27
00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:12,240
Speaker 3: well being. And so this year was really might be

28
00:03:12,320 --> 00:03:17,440
Speaker 3: my favorite. This year, I created two panels for the

29
00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:22,519
Speaker 3: Mental Wealth Alliance Expo, and I wanted to investigate some

30
00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:26,919
Speaker 3: conversations in front of a live audience that we've had

31
00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:31,080
Speaker 3: the chance to begin investigating here on the podcast Deeply Well.

32
00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:35,440
Speaker 3: This year, I had the honor of creating these panels,

33
00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:37,960
Speaker 3: and I'm really grateful to share one of them with

34
00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:41,200
Speaker 3: you today and we'll be sharing the second one in

35
00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:45,520
Speaker 3: the coming weeks. But today's episode is going to be

36
00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:53,920
Speaker 3: very layered, very deep, an exploration of religious trauma, what

37
00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:57,240
Speaker 3: it is, how it can shape our sense of self

38
00:03:57,360 --> 00:04:01,440
Speaker 3: and belonging, and the courageous work that it takes to

39
00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:06,960
Speaker 3: reclaim agency and trust in ourselves after we may have

40
00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:11,560
Speaker 3: experienced spiritual harm. So I want to anchor this understanding

41
00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:14,880
Speaker 3: of religious trauma for just a second. So we've done

42
00:04:14,920 --> 00:04:18,320
Speaker 3: a previous episode on this podcast called religious Trauma, which

43
00:04:18,400 --> 00:04:20,880
Speaker 3: I highly suggest that you go listen to.

44
00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:22,800
Speaker 4: But this is a.

45
00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:29,719
Speaker 3: Really kind of broad and layer phrase to give a definition,

46
00:04:29,800 --> 00:04:33,280
Speaker 3: give a description to an experience where and this can

47
00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:37,159
Speaker 3: happen in a multitude of ways, but in an experience

48
00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:44,560
Speaker 3: where religion or family belief was community belief was weaponized

49
00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:51,440
Speaker 3: against you and could have dramatically impaired your relationship with yourself,

50
00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:55,039
Speaker 3: your relationship with God, and your relationship with a.

51
00:04:55,040 --> 00:04:56,159
Speaker 4: Greater world around you.

52
00:04:56,720 --> 00:04:59,120
Speaker 3: Sometimes that can look like things that we've heard of

53
00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:04,359
Speaker 3: in the news for many decades, certain things that the

54
00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:10,280
Speaker 3: Catholic Church has faced. So that can include sexual assault, molestation,

55
00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:15,479
Speaker 3: rape by a clergy member, by a member of the church,

56
00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:19,760
Speaker 3: by an adult against a child, by an adult against

57
00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:25,440
Speaker 3: another adult, but wrapped within religious contexts, or an unspoken

58
00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:29,960
Speaker 3: kind of authority that is rooted in religion and in belief.

59
00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:35,839
Speaker 3: It can also mean someone perpetrating manipulation, manipulative harm against you,

60
00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:40,719
Speaker 3: dominating you, getting you to do a multitude of things,

61
00:05:40,760 --> 00:05:44,800
Speaker 3: but usually not related to God and for the betterment

62
00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:48,640
Speaker 3: of whoever was in a position of power at the time.

63
00:05:49,839 --> 00:05:51,640
Speaker 3: Even the way that I'm speaking to this now, I

64
00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:54,360
Speaker 3: want you to know that that these are not the

65
00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:58,080
Speaker 3: only things that fall under the context of religious trauma.

66
00:05:58,480 --> 00:06:01,839
Speaker 3: I know I've heard from other people throughout my adult

67
00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:06,599
Speaker 3: life who have been in either very constricting religions. I've

68
00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:10,480
Speaker 3: had some friends that would recognize being in JW as

69
00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:14,240
Speaker 3: an experience that they perceived as religious trauma, that they

70
00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:20,600
Speaker 3: experienced as religious trauma. Also situations where people might have

71
00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:23,960
Speaker 3: found themselves in cults, either by their own choice or

72
00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:27,000
Speaker 3: because they were raised into it because of the choices

73
00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:33,240
Speaker 3: of their caregivers. But again, it's about any kind of restriction, dominance,

74
00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:36,640
Speaker 3: abuse of any kind, manipulation of any.

75
00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:38,160
Speaker 4: Kind that.

76
00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:44,800
Speaker 3: You experienced at the hands of someone. In religious contexts,

77
00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:50,640
Speaker 3: it can also be yeah, dogma and doctrination of beliefs

78
00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:54,840
Speaker 3: that only serve one person or certain grouping of people.

79
00:06:55,800 --> 00:06:59,280
Speaker 3: But if this term in any way is triggering, it's

80
00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:02,839
Speaker 3: causing charge in the body, or it's causing a lot

81
00:07:02,880 --> 00:07:06,680
Speaker 3: of really just new thoughts or curiosity to come forward,

82
00:07:07,440 --> 00:07:11,840
Speaker 3: I really, really really hope to give you permission with

83
00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:16,280
Speaker 3: this episode and this conversation to investigate what that phrase

84
00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:19,280
Speaker 3: means to you. Spend some time looking it up. I

85
00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:23,560
Speaker 3: think at a basic level, use chat, GPT, use Google

86
00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:27,320
Speaker 3: to start looking up a few different ways that that

87
00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:33,119
Speaker 3: term or phrase is positioned. I think it could be

88
00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:36,200
Speaker 3: very supportive or helpful to consider bringing it up in

89
00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:42,080
Speaker 3: a therapized environment or with someone that has more experience

90
00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:47,840
Speaker 3: working with people who have experienced significant trauma. So we're

91
00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:50,720
Speaker 3: going to dive into this conversation. So this panel that

92
00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:56,480
Speaker 3: I created, I was joined by two men with really

93
00:07:57,240 --> 00:08:02,600
Speaker 3: powerful stories and powerful lives experiences. So on this panel,

94
00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:07,679
Speaker 3: I was joined by doctor Teddy Reeves and Carl Lentz.

95
00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:12,160
Speaker 3: In this conversation, we hold space for both the personal

96
00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:17,800
Speaker 3: and historical dimensions of this topic and reflect on what healing, accountability,

97
00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:21,040
Speaker 3: and spiritual renewal can really look like in our lives

98
00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:25,720
Speaker 3: and our communities, especially as we begin to reclaim God

99
00:08:26,320 --> 00:08:30,520
Speaker 3: for ourselves and reclaim our bodies and reclaim our minds.

100
00:08:31,080 --> 00:08:34,319
Speaker 3: So our first guest that I named, doctor Teddy Reeves, PhD,

101
00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:39,600
Speaker 3: is the Senior Curator of Religion at the Smithsonian National

102
00:08:39,679 --> 00:08:44,720
Speaker 3: Museum of African American History and Culture. He's the creator

103
00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:49,520
Speaker 3: of God Talk, a documentary exploring how Black millennials reimagine

104
00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:53,600
Speaker 3: faith across traditions. You may have heard me speak about

105
00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:57,080
Speaker 3: this film God Talks. Over the years I filmed for

106
00:08:57,160 --> 00:08:59,360
Speaker 3: this project, Teddy asked me to be a part of it.

107
00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:02,080
Speaker 4: In it was twenty eighteen.

108
00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:04,480
Speaker 3: It was a few weeks after I had my son,

109
00:09:05,480 --> 00:09:09,880
Speaker 3: and I always preface that because Good Lord was I

110
00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:14,240
Speaker 3: in the thick of postpartum life as I filmed for

111
00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:18,040
Speaker 3: this series. So I remember I even had like quests

112
00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:20,360
Speaker 3: kind of like a cross for me as a newborn

113
00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:23,760
Speaker 3: because I was feeding him and I was shooting, but

114
00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:26,320
Speaker 3: I was. It was something that was really special. And

115
00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:29,000
Speaker 3: at that time that this was put together, he had

116
00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:31,840
Speaker 3: a series of talks that were going across the country

117
00:09:32,280 --> 00:09:35,040
Speaker 3: where we were bringing to life this idea of understanding

118
00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:38,560
Speaker 3: what religious trauma is, but also what are the various

119
00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:42,480
Speaker 3: ways that you can know God for yourself that people

120
00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:48,720
Speaker 3: have been fortifying themselves and faith in their lives and

121
00:09:48,760 --> 00:09:52,480
Speaker 3: their belief with and their healing with and also investigating

122
00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:56,560
Speaker 3: in this doc you know, the real difference that happened

123
00:09:56,600 --> 00:09:59,520
Speaker 3: with the millennial generation. There was for a time a

124
00:09:59,559 --> 00:10:03,360
Speaker 3: mass it is from the church from this generation, and.

125
00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:05,520
Speaker 4: That is talked about quite a bit.

126
00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:10,080
Speaker 3: A lot of different reasonings and personal perspectives that were

127
00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:15,200
Speaker 3: shared across belief systems through the culture, and it was

128
00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:18,440
Speaker 3: just a really incredibly done film that I feel very

129
00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:20,800
Speaker 3: honored to be a part of. But Teddy explores this

130
00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:23,679
Speaker 3: in such a huge way in his role in all

131
00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:26,560
Speaker 3: the work he does around the country on this topic.

132
00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:32,840
Speaker 3: And our second guest on this conversation was Karl Lentz.

133
00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:37,360
Speaker 3: Karl Lentz, many might be familiar, was a renowned pastor.

134
00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:42,480
Speaker 3: He is currently a strategist at Transformation Church and the

135
00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:47,600
Speaker 3: host of the lights On podcast. Once a high profile pastor,

136
00:10:48,160 --> 00:10:53,800
Speaker 3: Carl has since embraced sobriety and a path of public healing.

137
00:10:54,520 --> 00:10:59,280
Speaker 3: He now supports others through coaching, helping to destigmatize addiction,

138
00:10:59,720 --> 00:11:06,960
Speaker 3: in fidelity and challenges with mental health. This conversation was

139
00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:13,000
Speaker 3: really special and powerful, and for me as the facilitator

140
00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:16,240
Speaker 3: of this convo, my eyes are always locked into the audience,

141
00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:19,480
Speaker 3: My heart is always locked into the audience, My senses

142
00:11:19,520 --> 00:11:22,280
Speaker 3: and my energy are always locked into the audience and

143
00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:25,880
Speaker 3: what they're feeling and how they're processing. And it was

144
00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:30,280
Speaker 3: just really powerful for me to watch the expressions, to

145
00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:33,480
Speaker 3: hear the size, to hear even some of the anger,

146
00:11:33,760 --> 00:11:38,319
Speaker 3: to hear some of the deep reflection that was happening

147
00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:41,720
Speaker 3: throughout the audience as we were having this conversation and

148
00:11:41,760 --> 00:11:46,800
Speaker 3: then to see so many afterwards just form huge lines

149
00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:50,480
Speaker 3: to speak with Teddy, to speak with Carl, to share

150
00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:53,720
Speaker 3: with Carl what he meant to them as a pastor,

151
00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:56,160
Speaker 3: and what it meant to them to hear him now

152
00:11:56,720 --> 00:12:00,560
Speaker 3: speaking from his space of healing. So an honor to

153
00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:03,920
Speaker 3: share this conversation with you. We talk about the duality

154
00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:07,600
Speaker 3: of sacred spaces, how they can offer profound comfort and connection,

155
00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:13,880
Speaker 3: yet also be sites for shame, for silence, for ego,

156
00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:18,360
Speaker 3: for control, and together we really examine how religious trauma

157
00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:22,960
Speaker 3: can impact identity and self worth, the stifling of women's

158
00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:26,680
Speaker 3: leadership that can happen within the church, and the subtle

159
00:12:26,679 --> 00:12:31,520
Speaker 3: ways that shame and hierarchy shape our relationship with God

160
00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:37,040
Speaker 3: and with ourselves, sometimes forever. The conversation invites us to

161
00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:44,200
Speaker 3: release limiting beliefs, dismantle shame, and rediscover the divine beyond institutions,

162
00:12:45,160 --> 00:12:49,840
Speaker 3: to rebuild a relationship with Spirit that feels true, expansive,

163
00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:54,960
Speaker 3: and grounded in autonomy, curiosity, and compassion. And it's an

164
00:12:54,960 --> 00:12:59,560
Speaker 3: offering to anyone healing from spiritual wounds, honoring where you're called,

165
00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:04,640
Speaker 3: and choosing a faith that allows you to flourish. At

166
00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:07,160
Speaker 3: the end of our time together, doctor Reeves and Carl

167
00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:12,199
Speaker 3: leave us with powerful reflections and practices that can support

168
00:13:12,200 --> 00:13:15,480
Speaker 3: you on your journey. So, without further ado, here's our

169
00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:19,000
Speaker 3: conversation on religious trauma.

170
00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:21,599
Speaker 5: Deeply Well.

171
00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:27,760
Speaker 4: Hello everyone, how are you feeling?

172
00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:31,359
Speaker 5: Yeah?

173
00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:37,200
Speaker 3: What an amazing and important way to spend a Saturday afternoon.

174
00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:39,360
Speaker 4: My name is Debbie Brown.

175
00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:42,360
Speaker 3: I'm a wellness educator and a healer and also a

176
00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:45,160
Speaker 3: proud board member of the Mental Wealth Alliance.

177
00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:48,200
Speaker 4: So we are so excited to be here for year four.

178
00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:48,920
Speaker 4: Thank you.

179
00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:55,280
Speaker 3: We're going to have a very deep panel and to

180
00:13:55,320 --> 00:13:58,640
Speaker 3: get us ready, and before I introduce my guests, let's

181
00:13:58,640 --> 00:14:03,400
Speaker 3: have a centering breath together. Is everybody in for that? Yeah,

182
00:14:03,640 --> 00:14:07,360
Speaker 3: So go ahead and get comfortable, like really comfortable, like

183
00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:12,280
Speaker 3: uncross a couple things. Sit forward, let your spine be

184
00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:14,920
Speaker 3: straight and your belly be soft, and we're just gonna

185
00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:18,440
Speaker 3: take three deep breaths in to really lock us into

186
00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:21,960
Speaker 3: the present moment and anything that may arise. So I

187
00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:23,480
Speaker 3: want to invite you, if you can hear the sound

188
00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:27,000
Speaker 3: of my voice and you're seated and comfortable, to gently close.

189
00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:27,520
Speaker 4: Your eyes.

190
00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:33,560
Speaker 3: And we will begin a nice deep in hell in

191
00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:38,480
Speaker 3: through your nose, filling your belly, rising.

192
00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:48,320
Speaker 4: In the chest and excel deep in Hell, in through

193
00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:49,400
Speaker 4: the nose.

194
00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:55,640
Speaker 1: And reallyase.

195
00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:02,680
Speaker 3: And last breath here together, deep in hell and through

196
00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:06,120
Speaker 3: your nose, really let it stretch your belly and your chest,

197
00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:17,120
Speaker 3: and beautiful, thank you for settling into this space with me.

198
00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:22,960
Speaker 3: You can gently open your eyes as you're ready, So again,

199
00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:26,960
Speaker 3: welcome everyone. Today, we're getting ready to enter into a

200
00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:33,560
Speaker 3: very deep and nuanced conversation about religious trauma, what it means,

201
00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:37,200
Speaker 3: how it shapes our sense of self, our sense of belonging,

202
00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:40,640
Speaker 3: our connection to faith in God, and how we can

203
00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:44,560
Speaker 3: begin the work of reclaiming agency after harm. If that

204
00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:48,040
Speaker 3: was present in your life, we have, I mean, we

205
00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:50,880
Speaker 3: are just blessed to have these two men on stage,

206
00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:55,000
Speaker 3: absolute acclaim stage today. I want to start by introducing

207
00:15:55,800 --> 00:16:00,120
Speaker 3: the first incredible voice, Doctor Teddy Reeves. Who is He'm

208
00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:04,560
Speaker 3: the senior Curator of Religion at the Smithsonian National Museum

209
00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:07,000
Speaker 3: of African American History and Culture.

210
00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:14,160
Speaker 4: He's the Yes, He's the creator of.

211
00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:18,800
Speaker 3: A really phenomenal documentary called God Talk, exploring how Black

212
00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:23,600
Speaker 3: millennials reimagine faith across traditions. And I was very honored

213
00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:25,960
Speaker 3: to be featured in that film. Welcome Teddy, thank you.

214
00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:28,600
Speaker 6: Thank you, thank you, glad to be here.

215
00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:34,960
Speaker 3: And next we have Karl Lentz, strategist at Transformation Church

216
00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:39,160
Speaker 3: and host of the lights On podcast. Once a high

217
00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:44,000
Speaker 3: profile pastor, Carl has since embraced sobriety and a public

218
00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:48,560
Speaker 3: path of healing. He now supports others through coaching, helping

219
00:16:48,640 --> 00:16:54,000
Speaker 3: destigmatize addiction, infidelity, and challenges with mental health. Thank you

220
00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:55,720
Speaker 3: so much for being here, Carl.

221
00:16:56,440 --> 00:16:57,320
Speaker 7: Honor, thank you.

222
00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:03,360
Speaker 3: I think to to really get this conversation grounded before

223
00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:06,480
Speaker 3: we start. You know, religious spaces kind of historically can

224
00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:11,040
Speaker 3: be both sacred places of healing and sources of profound harm.

225
00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:16,480
Speaker 3: Religious trauma impacts identity, self worth, and the ability to

226
00:17:16,600 --> 00:17:20,679
Speaker 3: connect with the community and with your own relationship with

227
00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:24,800
Speaker 3: a higher power. Healing in this space requires so much courage,

228
00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:26,600
Speaker 3: safe spaces.

229
00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:28,399
Speaker 4: Humility, and new ways of belonging.

230
00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:31,080
Speaker 3: So I think to kick off this conversation and I'll

231
00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:36,479
Speaker 3: start with you, Teddy, what is your definition of religious trauma?

232
00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:39,520
Speaker 4: How do you even relate to that word, that concept?

233
00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:44,320
Speaker 8: Thanks so much, DEVI for the question, and I'm really

234
00:17:44,359 --> 00:17:48,600
Speaker 8: excited to be here. I think to define religious trauma.

235
00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:52,159
Speaker 8: I first asked a question of what is religion for

236
00:17:52,280 --> 00:17:56,280
Speaker 8: that person? Right, That religion means something different for each

237
00:17:56,320 --> 00:17:59,040
Speaker 8: one of us, depending on the tradition we came out of,

238
00:17:59,119 --> 00:18:02,919
Speaker 8: depending on the experiences we had. But I will say,

239
00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:05,199
Speaker 8: as someone who grew up in the South, as in

240
00:18:05,240 --> 00:18:08,520
Speaker 8: a Black Baptist church, I would say my religious trauma

241
00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:13,520
Speaker 8: came from the experiences of people in my Black Baptist church.

242
00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:14,120
Speaker 3: Right.

243
00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:18,760
Speaker 8: And so I think religious trauma is the vestuses of

244
00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:22,640
Speaker 8: something deeper, particularly for people of African descent. It's the

245
00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:27,640
Speaker 8: remnants of something that we have continuously been dealing with since.

246
00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:29,360
Speaker 6: Our arrival on these shores. Right.

247
00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:33,160
Speaker 8: That religious trauma is not something that happened in the nineties,

248
00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:34,480
Speaker 8: only in the two thousands.

249
00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:34,760
Speaker 5: Only.

250
00:18:35,119 --> 00:18:38,400
Speaker 8: Religious trauma started in eighteen sixty five, once we set

251
00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:43,080
Speaker 8: our foot on these shores, right, eighteen sixty five, when

252
00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:44,719
Speaker 8: we're free from these shores. But when we get here

253
00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:47,399
Speaker 8: in seventeen ninety, right, it begins at these points. So

254
00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:52,920
Speaker 8: religious trauma is anything that has caused you called soul wounds,

255
00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:57,040
Speaker 8: that's called mental wounds in you and around you, at

256
00:18:57,080 --> 00:19:00,879
Speaker 8: the hands of your religious institution or those who are

257
00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:04,040
Speaker 8: leading it. But I think also religious trauma is something

258
00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:07,639
Speaker 8: we experience at home right that it isn't always at

259
00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:08,320
Speaker 8: the hands of.

260
00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:10,760
Speaker 6: The religious leader or leaders.

261
00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:14,520
Speaker 8: But it is something that happens when the texts, when tradition,

262
00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:20,840
Speaker 8: when doctrine is used to justify behavior, or justify discipline,

263
00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:25,239
Speaker 8: or justify mistreatment of individuals, that become the remnants of

264
00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:28,800
Speaker 8: religious trauma. I just always like to center it, particularly

265
00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:31,480
Speaker 8: for people of African descent, that religious trauma didn't start

266
00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:34,840
Speaker 8: in our hands. We inherited it and we've been passing

267
00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:36,560
Speaker 8: it and perpetuating it since then.

268
00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:37,960
Speaker 2: Wow.

269
00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:41,439
Speaker 4: Thank you, Carl. How do you relate to that word?

270
00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:46,600
Speaker 7: Well, I just like to say, firstly, your outfits incredible

271
00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:51,320
Speaker 7: and how's everybody doing. Guy's good, It's good to see you.

272
00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:56,120
Speaker 7: I think I see this angle from the situation from

273
00:19:56,119 --> 00:20:01,080
Speaker 7: two angles, as a perpetrator of religious trauma, UH, as

274
00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:04,400
Speaker 7: a pastor that lied to people that trusted me, and

275
00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:07,360
Speaker 7: a victim of in some ways of having things done

276
00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:10,240
Speaker 7: to me. So my life right now consists of holding

277
00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:14,919
Speaker 7: these two things with a beautiful tension because religious trauma

278
00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:18,200
Speaker 7: is different than other trauma, and that we're attaching it

279
00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:23,240
Speaker 7: to God and anytime that happens, things get really beautiful

280
00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:27,600
Speaker 7: or really complicated, And so I enjoy seeing people get

281
00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:32,280
Speaker 7: free of that fear that often accompanies this kind of

282
00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:34,920
Speaker 7: religious trauma. And there is a brighter day for people

283
00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:36,560
Speaker 7: who are willing to dig for it.

284
00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:49,440
Speaker 5: Oh wow, deeply wow.

285
00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:53,000
Speaker 4: I just want to say thank you.

286
00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:54,560
Speaker 3: I'm going to say this to you all day, but

287
00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:57,320
Speaker 3: just like thank you for the courage and the humility

288
00:20:57,520 --> 00:20:59,720
Speaker 3: of being here and speaking to this in that.

289
00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:02,480
Speaker 4: Way, like the power of what you.

290
00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:05,320
Speaker 3: And your unique viewpoint can bring to the world, it's

291
00:21:05,359 --> 00:21:10,080
Speaker 3: really profound. I'll start with you on this first question, Carl.

292
00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:14,080
Speaker 3: You know, how can we practically disrupt the cycles of

293
00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:18,280
Speaker 3: shame and secrecy that often keeps religious trauma as an

294
00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:19,720
Speaker 3: unspoken experience.

295
00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:23,560
Speaker 7: You got to speak about it. I mean, I love

296
00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:26,560
Speaker 7: when people get the courage to actually get it out,

297
00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:33,199
Speaker 7: because the power of shame will get people to stop talking.

298
00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:36,600
Speaker 7: And the longer you do that, the more that pain

299
00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:39,679
Speaker 7: will continue to work through your whole body. And so

300
00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:42,520
Speaker 7: it seems like it's a long road to heal from

301
00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:45,280
Speaker 7: religious trauma, and it can be. But the first step

302
00:21:45,359 --> 00:21:47,840
Speaker 7: is just getting with somebody that you trust to get

303
00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:50,120
Speaker 7: it out and say this is how I feel. Because

304
00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:53,080
Speaker 7: the first thing you lose with religious trauma is agency.

305
00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:57,040
Speaker 7: You have outsourced your conviction, your power. You have to

306
00:21:57,080 --> 00:22:00,400
Speaker 7: go to someone else to get something else. The first

307
00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:03,800
Speaker 7: step to reclaiming that it's saying, wait, I have a voice,

308
00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:08,280
Speaker 7: I feel, I see, I sense, and learning how to

309
00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:10,960
Speaker 7: trust that again. It's a beautiful journey, but that's where

310
00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:13,800
Speaker 7: it begins. It's just making a choice to say, from

311
00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:18,280
Speaker 7: this second on, I'm gonna reclaim my own power and

312
00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:20,320
Speaker 7: start to ask these questions that I've had for a

313
00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:23,080
Speaker 7: really long time. And so I love pointing people right

314
00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:24,919
Speaker 7: to that one moment of just sitting with somebody you

315
00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:27,320
Speaker 7: love and saying this is this is what happened to me.

316
00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:30,480
Speaker 7: And even if that's all you did, it's enough to

317
00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:33,480
Speaker 7: start this journey of healing that never ends until until

318
00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:34,359
Speaker 7: we're going to be in heaven.

319
00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:39,560
Speaker 4: Never ends. Yeah, thank you, thank you, Teddy.

320
00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:43,080
Speaker 8: I think to that point, Karl, I think a big

321
00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:45,840
Speaker 8: part of it for me is that many individuals don't

322
00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:49,080
Speaker 8: even know that they're traumatized. Right that we got plenty

323
00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:52,600
Speaker 8: of people sitting in mosque and churches across our country,

324
00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:55,560
Speaker 8: across our world, not knowing that every Sunday they're traumatized.

325
00:22:56,520 --> 00:23:02,520
Speaker 8: Right that every Sunday they're walking around with psychological.

326
00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:04,399
Speaker 6: Trauma in their body and not knowing it.

327
00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:08,159
Speaker 8: Right, that someone is willing to parse out their identity,

328
00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:11,200
Speaker 8: their way of being, their existence.

329
00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:11,480
Speaker 3: Right.

330
00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:14,960
Speaker 8: Example of some people are sitting in churches where women

331
00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:19,199
Speaker 8: can't lead based off of Paul line text that was

332
00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:22,600
Speaker 8: poorly interpretated when Paul says that women should be silent.

333
00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:26,120
Speaker 8: When Paul was specifically talking to the church at Corinth

334
00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:28,320
Speaker 8: because the women were being loud in the colosseum, and

335
00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:30,080
Speaker 8: he was like, look, y'all can't talk when I come

336
00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:34,440
Speaker 8: around to mean that women can't lead in leadership roles, right,

337
00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:37,439
Speaker 8: that's religious trauma, right, that we have plenty in our

338
00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:40,439
Speaker 8: churches are full of women, particularly Black women, that are

339
00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:42,679
Speaker 8: sitting in these spaces not knowing that.

340
00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:45,520
Speaker 6: The stifling of.

341
00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:49,600
Speaker 8: Leadership starts early, right, and it often starts at the

342
00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:52,080
Speaker 8: hands of Black churches, in Black religious spaces.

343
00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:54,119
Speaker 6: And and so I think.

344
00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:57,119
Speaker 8: That particularly for we're looking at millennials and Gen z

345
00:23:57,280 --> 00:23:59,240
Speaker 8: ors and even Gen xers and up who have were

346
00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:00,159
Speaker 8: raised in the church.

347
00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:00,359
Speaker 6: Right.

348
00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:03,199
Speaker 8: Gen z is the first generation that's not raised in

349
00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:06,680
Speaker 8: the church, not raised in a religious institution overwhelmingly.

350
00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:09,480
Speaker 6: And so we see for these three older.

351
00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:13,520
Speaker 8: Generations living that they are riddled with religious trauma. Right,

352
00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:15,960
Speaker 8: that we literally are living in the after effects of

353
00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:19,640
Speaker 8: people believing that women cannot lead, right, and that black

354
00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:23,399
Speaker 8: women cannot lead, and so really believing that, you know,

355
00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:25,639
Speaker 8: we got folks who are walking around believing their sexual

356
00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:26,680
Speaker 8: identities is up.

357
00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:31,200
Speaker 6: For debate because of a text when we.

358
00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:34,040
Speaker 8: Can't even read a liberatory text, when the story of

359
00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:38,680
Speaker 8: Jonathan and David is a story not of platonic friendship, right,

360
00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:41,680
Speaker 8: but we're not talking about the hermeneutics and the theological

361
00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:45,600
Speaker 8: conversations and questions and readings that need to be done

362
00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:47,639
Speaker 8: in the text. And so I think part of this

363
00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:49,439
Speaker 8: is that a lot of people are walking around not

364
00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:52,840
Speaker 8: knowing their traumatized, right, and that becomes the story of

365
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:56,800
Speaker 8: also a group of people who walk around consistently traumatized

366
00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:00,159
Speaker 8: from injustice, from hate, from all of these things. And

367
00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:03,560
Speaker 8: so when you compound religiosity to it we are a

368
00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:08,960
Speaker 8: spiritual people, it only continues to perpetuate bondage and shrike

369
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:13,040
Speaker 8: shackles and ways of being that is not conducive for

370
00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:15,280
Speaker 8: our freedom. And so I think that that is also

371
00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:16,359
Speaker 8: something we need to sit with.

372
00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:19,360
Speaker 7: I was going to say, do you find it when

373
00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:21,560
Speaker 7: you when you talk to people and you want to

374
00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:24,120
Speaker 7: know whether they know they're traumatized? Aroun I like to say,

375
00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:26,600
Speaker 7: what do you think God's posture is? If you're going

376
00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:29,000
Speaker 7: to have a conversation with the God that you claim

377
00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:33,040
Speaker 7: to believe in, what is his posture towards you? Right away?

378
00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:35,920
Speaker 7: You can find out because most people would think he's judgy,

379
00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:38,960
Speaker 7: he's mean, he's mad. What would be the posture of God?

380
00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:41,560
Speaker 7: And that's when you find out quickly? Wow, how long

381
00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:42,439
Speaker 7: you been living like that?

382
00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:42,960
Speaker 1: Is?

383
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:45,560
Speaker 7: That? Is that heavy to walk around every day thinking

384
00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:49,159
Speaker 7: that God is looking at you like there's what if

385
00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:50,720
Speaker 7: there's a different truth to find?

386
00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:53,280
Speaker 6: And who would want to serve a God like that?

387
00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:56,880
Speaker 7: Apparently a lot of people did White evangelical.

388
00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:57,440
Speaker 6: Shirt that that is true.

389
00:25:57,440 --> 00:25:59,720
Speaker 3: Brother, that is true, because then we get into the

390
00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:03,600
Speaker 3: fibers of the way that we connect God even to

391
00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:06,080
Speaker 3: the trauma we experience in our homes and in the

392
00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:11,160
Speaker 3: world and systemic oppression and why we are seeking out

393
00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:14,200
Speaker 3: to serve punishment in the first place.

394
00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:18,480
Speaker 8: And why do we give God human problems? Okay, God

395
00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:20,800
Speaker 8: didn't do that to you. The church that that person

396
00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:24,040
Speaker 8: did that, right, that we are all broking beings. But

397
00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:26,560
Speaker 8: name the thing, right, The text tells us to name

398
00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:29,119
Speaker 8: the demon, right, Jesus asks the demon the name for

399
00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:32,000
Speaker 8: a specific reason, because he's saying, what is this thing

400
00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:33,560
Speaker 8: that I need to uproot?

401
00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:35,760
Speaker 6: I need to name the person.

402
00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:37,879
Speaker 8: That harmed me so that we can uproot and begin

403
00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:40,120
Speaker 8: to find out are we going to reconcile or are

404
00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:41,280
Speaker 8: we not going to reconcile?

405
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:42,600
Speaker 6: Right? But if we're.

406
00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:45,640
Speaker 8: Unwilling to name it, but we put it on God, right,

407
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:49,080
Speaker 8: I'm like, God ain't hurt you. These people hurt you, right,

408
00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:51,560
Speaker 8: and the God in them is what we can be reconciled.

409
00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:53,760
Speaker 8: We can decide whether we want to be reconciled back

410
00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:56,240
Speaker 8: to one another through it. But I think that when

411
00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:58,919
Speaker 8: we talk about church decline and all these other things

412
00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:02,760
Speaker 8: where it's often been because people put the hurt on God, right,

413
00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:05,359
Speaker 8: and and to your point, versus putting the hurt and

414
00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:07,879
Speaker 8: the blame where it needs to sit and us walking

415
00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:08,200
Speaker 8: through that.

416
00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:14,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, ooh, it's funny when you when you say giving

417
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:17,359
Speaker 3: God human problems, Like the first thing that came to

418
00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:19,560
Speaker 3: me is like, yeah, if you're looking at God as

419
00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:22,600
Speaker 3: being this punishing, this judging these so we're saying God

420
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:27,800
Speaker 3: doesn't have tools that like God isn't emotionally regulated, have

421
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:31,840
Speaker 3: the ability to see past personal feelings of you know,

422
00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:33,480
Speaker 3: irritation and indignation.

423
00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:37,240
Speaker 7: Now I was going to say, it's a lot of

424
00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:40,720
Speaker 7: people will God's voice sounds a lot like their dad

425
00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:43,240
Speaker 7: that was or was not there, that was good or

426
00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:46,040
Speaker 7: was not good. And that's a really interesting thing to

427
00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:49,240
Speaker 7: look at because that's that's the tape people play. God's

428
00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:52,800
Speaker 7: voice is the dad that you either hated or didn't have.

429
00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:56,000
Speaker 7: Maybe he loved them, but that's not necessarily reflective of

430
00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:58,600
Speaker 7: the God that we know. And that's a very tricky

431
00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:00,680
Speaker 7: thing for people to start to unwind, but it's worth

432
00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:03,200
Speaker 7: it because you might have been listening to the wrong

433
00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:06,760
Speaker 7: tape your whole life. What impact might that have had.

434
00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:09,280
Speaker 7: And that's the thing about trauma. If you have relationship trauma,

435
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:13,440
Speaker 7: beautiful relationships are the carnage. If you have church trauma,

436
00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:16,120
Speaker 7: your relationship with God can be the carnage. And that's

437
00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:18,159
Speaker 7: not fair. We're old better than that, you know.

438
00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:21,560
Speaker 8: I think from a very practical sense, what I often

439
00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:24,200
Speaker 8: offer people to that point is one of the first

440
00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:26,760
Speaker 8: things to do in kind of freeing yourself from that

441
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:28,800
Speaker 8: is to free yourself from the language.

442
00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:32,480
Speaker 6: That God has to only be your father. Right, I

443
00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:33,520
Speaker 6: refer to God as she.

444
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:36,400
Speaker 8: Right, you can put she in the text sometimes when

445
00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:39,120
Speaker 8: it says he, that is a we did that, right,

446
00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:42,520
Speaker 8: that is a that's an interpretation. But that if you're

447
00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:46,800
Speaker 8: referring to God and you give God back God's autonomy,

448
00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:49,840
Speaker 8: because God is not a man nor a woman. When

449
00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:52,560
Speaker 8: you give God back God's autonomy or saying God is

450
00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:56,160
Speaker 8: a good God, right reviews removing the pronouns allow you

451
00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:58,760
Speaker 8: to remove the harm that was done to you by

452
00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:02,720
Speaker 8: those personal individual rules and give God back God's autonomy.

453
00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:06,200
Speaker 8: Right that I will say mother God quickly, right, because

454
00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:08,760
Speaker 8: if you have a poor relationship with your mother, with

455
00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:11,320
Speaker 8: your father, and God is your father, then you and God.

456
00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:13,480
Speaker 8: That's why you don't pray like that, right, because you

457
00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:15,360
Speaker 8: don't know how to talk to your daddy. So like

458
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:18,720
Speaker 8: really having this freeing moment to say no, like God

459
00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:20,360
Speaker 8: is autonomous of us.

460
00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:20,680
Speaker 3: God.

461
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:23,240
Speaker 8: We are God's hands and feet in the world, but

462
00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:25,960
Speaker 8: God is autonomous from me as a being, and so

463
00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:29,320
Speaker 8: God is God, God is Spirit. God is this thing

464
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:31,960
Speaker 8: that's beyond me, but it's in me and around me.

465
00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:35,640
Speaker 8: And so I don't have to give God again human

466
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:41,680
Speaker 8: problems right that mm they hurt me, but God loves me, right.

467
00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:43,920
Speaker 8: And so if I sit in that I am beautifully

468
00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:48,000
Speaker 8: and wonderfully made, right that I don't enter my relationship

469
00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:51,520
Speaker 8: with God in sin. I enter my relationship with God

470
00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:55,040
Speaker 8: in love, right. And when I enter with love.

471
00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:57,040
Speaker 6: Everything else works itself out right.

472
00:29:57,040 --> 00:29:59,560
Speaker 8: But when you enter from a sinful point, you look

473
00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:01,240
Speaker 8: at God, it's this, Oh God, it is going to

474
00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:02,240
Speaker 8: turn God's back on me or.

475
00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:05,200
Speaker 6: I'm not good enough from God. I'm beautiful and wonderfully made.

476
00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:07,400
Speaker 8: That's what the text said, right, And it said that

477
00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:10,720
Speaker 8: when He created he or she created me, I was

478
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:15,160
Speaker 8: good creation period right. Everything else will work itself out.

479
00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:19,520
Speaker 8: That is my humanity working right now. But I'm good

480
00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:22,960
Speaker 8: right that if I hurt my brother here, I'm still good.

481
00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:26,280
Speaker 8: The text gives me how to reconcile with him, but

482
00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:29,640
Speaker 8: God still loves me, period right. And I think that

483
00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:34,600
Speaker 8: that freedom also helps us release ourselves from that trauma.

484
00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:35,600
Speaker 6: That is so good.

485
00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:40,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm looking at this clock and I'm like, they

486
00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:42,240
Speaker 3: better put sixty more minutes up here, because I have

487
00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:44,479
Speaker 3: all the questions we need to hear today.

488
00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:49,200
Speaker 4: I think next, and I know this is.

489
00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:53,400
Speaker 3: Oh, Carl, I'll start with you here on this next question.

490
00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:57,760
Speaker 3: You know, for those that have decided because of often

491
00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:02,200
Speaker 3: unspoken harm that has happened, who've decided to step away

492
00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:07,040
Speaker 3: from religion entirely, what are some ways to reconnect with

493
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:11,960
Speaker 3: spirituality or meaning outside of traditional frameworks. How do you

494
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:15,120
Speaker 3: build that walk live in that walk if you have

495
00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:18,000
Speaker 3: stepped away from your family's church or just.

496
00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:21,480
Speaker 4: All of it as a system.

497
00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:28,120
Speaker 7: I think religious institutions, whether it's a church or whatever

498
00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:31,080
Speaker 7: we're going to call an institution, it's only as powerful

499
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:34,680
Speaker 7: as the door that you entered it from. So we

500
00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:37,719
Speaker 7: always tried to tell people was the ideal is to

501
00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:42,040
Speaker 7: have a relationship with God outside of that institution. From there,

502
00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:45,480
Speaker 7: if you enter a church or a place, it's a

503
00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:49,600
Speaker 7: different succession of connection. If your only connection to God

504
00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:53,320
Speaker 7: is through an institution, what happens when the institution goes bad,

505
00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:56,960
Speaker 7: or the pastor lies, or the pastor lets you down

506
00:31:57,360 --> 00:31:58,920
Speaker 7: all of a sudden, it all falls down. But if

507
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:02,680
Speaker 7: you enter this, you know, whatever your faith leads you

508
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:05,480
Speaker 7: towards if you have a relationship with God that supersedes

509
00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:07,760
Speaker 7: that which it should, there's a lot more strength. So

510
00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:11,320
Speaker 7: I always encourage people I'm not interested in what box

511
00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:14,680
Speaker 7: you check or what you call yourself on Facebook Christian Catholic,

512
00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:17,880
Speaker 7: with what is your relationship with the Living God? How

513
00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:22,000
Speaker 7: do you define that? From there flows everything? And most people,

514
00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:23,680
Speaker 7: if you ask them about God, the first thing they

515
00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:26,240
Speaker 7: do is talk about their church. And there's a little

516
00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:28,120
Speaker 7: bit of beauty to that, but there's a whole lot

517
00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:30,240
Speaker 7: of problems with that too. So I just like to

518
00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:33,120
Speaker 7: tell people you have a a lot of time, take

519
00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:36,560
Speaker 7: your time. There's no rush. God is patient, and it's

520
00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:39,080
Speaker 7: better to go slow and be right than it is

521
00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:42,000
Speaker 7: to rush back in and be wrong again. And often people,

522
00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:44,880
Speaker 7: when they're traumatized, they just take the first option there

523
00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:47,000
Speaker 7: and sometimes you get back in the same cycle. So

524
00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:49,760
Speaker 7: I just like to point people to you know, church

525
00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:52,120
Speaker 7: is something that is important. We've made it. It can

526
00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:55,200
Speaker 7: be beautiful, but the design is to always have a

527
00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:58,760
Speaker 7: relationship with God that is unattached from that. And if

528
00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:02,080
Speaker 7: you have that, typically you're gonna want to build a community.

529
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:04,280
Speaker 7: You're gonna want to be in community with people that

530
00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:06,959
Speaker 7: believe the same thing. But if I have my relationship

531
00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:10,360
Speaker 7: with God correctly, humans can let me down and it

532
00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:13,200
Speaker 7: will not knock my view of this God that I

533
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:16,480
Speaker 7: believe saved my life. And there's something you can stand on.

534
00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:19,240
Speaker 7: When that happens. I'm hurt and I'm disappointed, and I'm

535
00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:22,200
Speaker 7: sad that this person or this church let me down,

536
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:25,400
Speaker 7: but it has not changed my standing with the God

537
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:27,720
Speaker 7: that created me. There's power in that.

538
00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:29,640
Speaker 2: Wow.

539
00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:33,080
Speaker 4: Oh, that is so good.

540
00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:35,320
Speaker 3: That is so good, And I think even in that,

541
00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:37,200
Speaker 3: and I wish we had the time to get into it.

542
00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:40,680
Speaker 3: But for me, that also brings up that when you

543
00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:42,680
Speaker 3: are kind of looking at your church, if you did

544
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:45,160
Speaker 3: come from a place that felt harmful or just not

545
00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:48,920
Speaker 3: the most aligned fit to you being in presence with God,

546
00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:52,200
Speaker 3: like have a discerning eye of how much of this

547
00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:56,400
Speaker 3: community might actually be caught up in like social hierarchy, right,

548
00:33:56,600 --> 00:34:00,800
Speaker 3: or like ego, because I think historically churches also can

549
00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:04,000
Speaker 3: become places where the root isn't about God and community

550
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:07,400
Speaker 3: and service, it's about what positions you hold and what

551
00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:10,319
Speaker 3: you take that to mean about yourself within the systems.

552
00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:17,799
Speaker 8: Also, to add to both of you, I think we

553
00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:23,280
Speaker 8: also get to nuance, this language around reconnecting, right, because

554
00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:25,399
Speaker 8: what I tell people, if you left your church, you're

555
00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:29,799
Speaker 8: still with God outside in the club period, Right, It

556
00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:33,520
Speaker 8: doesn't require you come back into something to be reconnected

557
00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:36,080
Speaker 8: with the divine. Right that I think when we're looking

558
00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:40,959
Speaker 8: at data just alone, Millennials and gen z are overwhelmingly

559
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:45,800
Speaker 8: identifying as nuns, n o ne right that we are,

560
00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:46,960
Speaker 8: Nor are we Christian?

561
00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:50,279
Speaker 6: Are we Buddhists? We are living in this very pluristic

562
00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:51,320
Speaker 6: space in our faith.

563
00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:53,719
Speaker 8: Right, we are Christian, but we get our tear cars

564
00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:56,200
Speaker 8: where we're Christian and we do crystals. We're Christian and

565
00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:59,000
Speaker 8: we meditate like we are living in this very spiritually

566
00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:02,400
Speaker 8: fluid space. And so I think part of what this

567
00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:05,040
Speaker 8: is is when we're dealing with this religious trauma and

568
00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:06,759
Speaker 8: many folks have walked out of.

569
00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:10,160
Speaker 6: The space, it's to cultivate the space you've walked into.

570
00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:10,759
Speaker 3: Right.

571
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:14,120
Speaker 8: If the space is podcasting, stay in the podcasting lane, right,

572
00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:15,279
Speaker 8: God is with you there.

573
00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:16,800
Speaker 6: It's a ministry.

574
00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:17,040
Speaker 3: Right.

575
00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:19,719
Speaker 8: If your space is at the music festival, right, I

576
00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:22,880
Speaker 8: think if your space is here at the Mental Wealth Expo,

577
00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:25,520
Speaker 8: this is a space where we're having church. Right, we're

578
00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:28,000
Speaker 8: talking about the divine. You can eat, you can break bread,

579
00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:30,319
Speaker 8: you can fellowship, we can even sing a song and

580
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:33,200
Speaker 8: leave right that we have done the work of the church.

581
00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:37,319
Speaker 8: And so I think it's honoring your call, honoring where

582
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:40,120
Speaker 8: Spirit has called you in this season. If it's outside

583
00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:43,160
Speaker 8: of the church in which you were raised, flourish right,

584
00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:47,600
Speaker 8: flourish there, experience the Divine there. This is what's happening today.

585
00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:50,480
Speaker 8: This is where Spirit is moving today. And I always

586
00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:52,960
Speaker 8: want to say, we're not doing anything new, We're reclaiming

587
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:56,759
Speaker 8: old practices. Right that our ancestors when we got here,

588
00:35:56,880 --> 00:36:01,200
Speaker 8: overwhelmingly majority of us were Muslim, or we practice traditional

589
00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:04,440
Speaker 8: African religion. If you are a descendant of chattel slavery

590
00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:07,640
Speaker 8: in this country, your people were not Christian. Christianity was

591
00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:10,000
Speaker 8: happening in the north. It was in Ethiopia, or unless

592
00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:13,319
Speaker 8: you're Ethiopian, that is where that was happening for us.

593
00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:17,359
Speaker 8: And so what we're seeing today with millennials is us

594
00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:18,800
Speaker 8: reclaiming free thought.

595
00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:19,319
Speaker 5: Right.

596
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:21,960
Speaker 8: We're walking in line of Zordaiirhirston, We're walking in the

597
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:23,960
Speaker 8: line of James Balwin, We're walking in the line of

598
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:28,560
Speaker 8: Frederick Douglass. These folks who understood that their relationship with

599
00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:31,840
Speaker 8: the divine was not regulated to a church, right, but

600
00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:34,560
Speaker 8: that the church becomes one extension of what black folks

601
00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:37,520
Speaker 8: were able to create, particularly for us in this country,

602
00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:41,960
Speaker 8: to resist injustice, right to fight against oppression. And it's

603
00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:45,080
Speaker 8: a beautiful space that we should keep cultivating. But not

604
00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:47,760
Speaker 8: all of us are called to be in that space.

605
00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:51,240
Speaker 8: And so honoring where you are called, honoring where Spirit

606
00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:55,200
Speaker 8: is leading you and healing your trauma there right there.

607
00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:59,719
Speaker 8: Sometimes you the hand, as doctor Thema Briant would say,

608
00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:02,400
Speaker 8: the hand that harmed you can't be the hand that

609
00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:06,160
Speaker 8: healed you, right, And so you gotta go get healed.

610
00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:08,200
Speaker 8: And if you want to reconnect, make sure that you

611
00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:10,360
Speaker 8: are healed before you go back to the space.

612
00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:10,799
Speaker 6: That harmed you.

613
00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:14,000
Speaker 8: And honor where you are and where Spirit may have you,

614
00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:16,359
Speaker 8: if that's the club, if that's twitch, if it's you two,

615
00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:19,040
Speaker 8: wherever that is, wherever your ministry has called you to

616
00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:22,320
Speaker 8: commune with the divine or conjure with the Divine.

617
00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:24,399
Speaker 4: Honor that thank you.

618
00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:35,359
Speaker 5: Deeply well.

619
00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:43,960
Speaker 3: I think is our final question on this stage. I'm

620
00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:45,359
Speaker 3: going to make it a two part because I got

621
00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:48,120
Speaker 3: to get an extra question off because this time went

622
00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:51,319
Speaker 3: too fast. I would say for each of you, you know,

623
00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:57,279
Speaker 3: how can communities of faith begin to repair trust with

624
00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:00,880
Speaker 3: people who have been harmed? And for anyone in the

625
00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:04,120
Speaker 3: audience listening right now that is quietly struggling with their

626
00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:08,480
Speaker 3: own story and experiences, how would you encourage them to

627
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:12,160
Speaker 3: take a first step towards reclaiming agency. So little two

628
00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:16,160
Speaker 3: parter rebuilding as a faith community and internal building as

629
00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:16,920
Speaker 3: an individual.

630
00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:22,000
Speaker 7: I meant I'll go fifteen seconds, you go twenty. Now

631
00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:23,399
Speaker 7: we're talking about church.

632
00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:24,080
Speaker 6: We should just.

633
00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:28,279
Speaker 7: Disregard the time. Anyway, if we're talking church, no, I

634
00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:32,040
Speaker 7: think I point people to truth. It's worth digging for truth.

635
00:38:32,239 --> 00:38:35,240
Speaker 7: I'm a Jesus follower. So if you know your Bible

636
00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:36,960
Speaker 7: in here, and the Bible talks about putting on the

637
00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:41,080
Speaker 7: armor of God. It likens truth to a belt, because

638
00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:42,920
Speaker 7: if you have everything but you don't have a belt,

639
00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:46,320
Speaker 7: everything falls down and you are now immobilized. You have

640
00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:47,880
Speaker 7: the best outfit in the world on, but if your

641
00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:50,440
Speaker 7: pants fall down, you're not going anywhere. And in the

642
00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:52,279
Speaker 7: church world, you see a lot of people who have

643
00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:55,200
Speaker 7: the fancy stuff. They got the sword, they got the helmet,

644
00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:57,880
Speaker 7: but they don't know the truth. And they can't figure

645
00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:01,000
Speaker 7: out why it never seems to fit right. And I

646
00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:04,680
Speaker 7: like pointing people to a mirror. First, how do I

647
00:39:04,719 --> 00:39:07,960
Speaker 7: feel right now? What's in my body? What's in my soul?

648
00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:10,040
Speaker 7: What do I think has happened to me? And then

649
00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:12,759
Speaker 7: you grab a telescope and think what would a life

650
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:16,200
Speaker 7: of freedom look like rather than fear? And then you

651
00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:18,719
Speaker 7: get a magnifying glass and go, what's one step I

652
00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:22,640
Speaker 7: can do today? And that little succession before you know it,

653
00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:24,880
Speaker 7: you're on this walk and you're like, how did I

654
00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:27,360
Speaker 7: get so free? Because you don't get free in today.

655
00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:29,799
Speaker 7: It's a journey. So I like looking at it like that,

656
00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:31,959
Speaker 7: like what's true for me? What do I believe is true?

657
00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:34,600
Speaker 7: Don't judge it, just stand on it. And from there,

658
00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:37,520
Speaker 7: you know, every day is a new step to find

659
00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:40,560
Speaker 7: some deeper truth. But there's a better day than just

660
00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:43,520
Speaker 7: sitting where you've been hurt. It's just a tragedy to

661
00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:47,480
Speaker 7: me when people allow the horrible actions of others to

662
00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:51,399
Speaker 7: rob them of a relationship with the living God. There's

663
00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:53,920
Speaker 7: a better opportunity, thank you.

664
00:39:57,040 --> 00:40:01,879
Speaker 8: I would argue for institutions when I'm talking to clergy,

665
00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:05,480
Speaker 8: whether they're Christian, Muslim, Buddhists all and the question is

666
00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:07,080
Speaker 8: always how do we get young people? How do we

667
00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:09,960
Speaker 8: get young people? You're not gonna get us right like

668
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:17,160
Speaker 8: we gone right, but it's not as and it's the

669
00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:20,279
Speaker 8: data shows us millennials and gen z ors are not

670
00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:25,000
Speaker 8: walking away from God, They're walking away from church. And

671
00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:27,680
Speaker 8: to your point, Carl earlier, if we can begin to

672
00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:32,600
Speaker 8: do the work to see them as not mutually exclusive right,

673
00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:35,879
Speaker 8: that it is the job of religious institutions to name

674
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:36,520
Speaker 8: the harm.

675
00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:39,040
Speaker 6: Right that you have, our.

676
00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:41,400
Speaker 8: Institutions and the people within them have to do the

677
00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:42,799
Speaker 8: hard work to reconcile.

678
00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:46,000
Speaker 6: How are we causing harm? How have we caused harm?

679
00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:48,440
Speaker 8: How do we support the work of what young people

680
00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:51,000
Speaker 8: are creating in the world today to experience the divine?

681
00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:54,160
Speaker 6: If they at the club, create something to go to

682
00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:55,920
Speaker 6: the club, right, if they like to do?

683
00:40:56,200 --> 00:40:56,400
Speaker 1: You know?

684
00:40:56,840 --> 00:41:00,480
Speaker 8: I used to be a pastor many moons ago, and

685
00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:03,960
Speaker 8: I remember having a young adult party and I was

686
00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:05,840
Speaker 8: the executive pastor and a senior pastor was like, we

687
00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:06,399
Speaker 8: having a party?

688
00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:09,279
Speaker 6: I said, absolutely, having a party? Why not? I was like,

689
00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:10,799
Speaker 6: and we haven't drinks? Why not?

690
00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:12,600
Speaker 8: Because they're gonna drink when they leave here? Why they

691
00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:14,560
Speaker 8: might as well drink when they're here, right, But we

692
00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:17,719
Speaker 8: can talk about responsible drinking. We can talk about what

693
00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:20,960
Speaker 8: it means to be the church. We can talk about

694
00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:24,160
Speaker 8: the first miracle being wine. You think Jesus didn't drink it,

695
00:41:25,719 --> 00:41:28,080
Speaker 8: right like, we can talk about what does it mean

696
00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:32,680
Speaker 8: to practically live this thing out right. But it takes

697
00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:35,640
Speaker 8: us to have these hard conversations. It takes us meeting

698
00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:39,000
Speaker 8: these generations where they are. It doesn't take us compromising

699
00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:41,560
Speaker 8: the story that Jesus lived. Jesus was born, and Jesus died,

700
00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:43,040
Speaker 8: and on the third day Jesus got up.

701
00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:44,480
Speaker 6: What it takes us is to.

702
00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:47,240
Speaker 8: Really acknowledge that Jesus lived in the world in which

703
00:41:48,040 --> 00:41:50,080
Speaker 8: is not similar to the world we live in today,

704
00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:52,160
Speaker 8: but also is not much.

705
00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:53,560
Speaker 6: Different than the world we lived in today.

706
00:41:53,560 --> 00:41:56,680
Speaker 8: There were the same same folks, same demons, same everything

707
00:41:56,719 --> 00:41:59,200
Speaker 8: going on. They just didn't have the same technologies we had.

708
00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:02,600
Speaker 8: And so looking at that and having those hard truths,

709
00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:05,120
Speaker 8: I think if I'm talking to an individual or anyone

710
00:42:05,160 --> 00:42:08,360
Speaker 8: here that is in this point in their journey, I

711
00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:11,400
Speaker 8: would say, very practically, if you journal, if you audio

712
00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:15,040
Speaker 8: record yourself, whatever that is, I would encourage you to

713
00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:19,560
Speaker 8: write a list everything the church or your religious institution

714
00:42:19,719 --> 00:42:23,359
Speaker 8: told you was wrong about you. Right, I'm not this

715
00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:25,880
Speaker 8: because I do that. I am not this because I

716
00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:28,360
Speaker 8: do that. Write it down, don't hold it back. Just

717
00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:31,759
Speaker 8: write it all on a list, vocalize it, and then

718
00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:35,560
Speaker 8: begin to write on the other column everything you believe

719
00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:41,120
Speaker 8: about yourself. Right, I'm powerful, I'm loving, I am this,

720
00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:44,000
Speaker 8: I am that. Look at the thing you were taught

721
00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:47,239
Speaker 8: to believe that you were not because you didn't follow this,

722
00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:49,719
Speaker 8: but everything you believe about yourself.

723
00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:51,000
Speaker 5: Right.

724
00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:55,279
Speaker 8: If the list of things that you were told were

725
00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:58,880
Speaker 8: not good about you outweighs the things you believe about yourself,

726
00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:04,400
Speaker 8: you're in religious true. Right, name the demon and begin

727
00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:06,279
Speaker 8: to work through that list.

728
00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:06,680
Speaker 3: Right.

729
00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:09,719
Speaker 8: If you were like, I'm not this because of this,

730
00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:12,520
Speaker 8: I encourage you to go get a commentary and begin

731
00:43:12,600 --> 00:43:15,720
Speaker 8: to read the text for yourself to realize this text

732
00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:18,279
Speaker 8: was written for a specific demographic of people at a

733
00:43:18,320 --> 00:43:22,880
Speaker 8: specific time, for specific reason. Right, I free you one better.

734
00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:26,200
Speaker 8: If you're still reading the King James version, let the

735
00:43:26,239 --> 00:43:27,359
Speaker 8: King James version go.

736
00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:29,359
Speaker 6: Right.

737
00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:32,480
Speaker 8: That brother was a not that there's anything wrong with it.

738
00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:34,360
Speaker 8: But if we're going to name the demon, right, because

739
00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:36,640
Speaker 8: your list is on the left side. That brother was

740
00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:40,279
Speaker 8: a drunk who was making money, so he converted the

741
00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:45,480
Speaker 8: Bible into English to sell it. It's not even the

742
00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:47,880
Speaker 8: closest you're going to get to the original text. The

743
00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:50,360
Speaker 8: NRSV or the NIV as the closest you're going to

744
00:43:50,400 --> 00:43:51,520
Speaker 8: get to the original.

745
00:43:51,120 --> 00:43:51,920
Speaker 6: Greek and Hebrew.

746
00:43:52,239 --> 00:43:55,920
Speaker 8: So if you're talking about really working through religious trauma,

747
00:43:55,960 --> 00:43:58,600
Speaker 8: it comes from a very practical level of how are

748
00:43:58,640 --> 00:44:01,880
Speaker 8: you reading the text? What is your hermineutic of seeing

749
00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:05,520
Speaker 8: yourself in the text? Connect yourself to amazing theologians doing

750
00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:08,440
Speaker 8: work around the things on your list. Right, if you

751
00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:10,359
Speaker 8: feel like you're a black woman and you can't lead,

752
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:13,920
Speaker 8: there's theologians like Candice Bimbo, Melva Sampson, all of these

753
00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:15,400
Speaker 8: women who are doing work around.

754
00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:17,000
Speaker 6: No, we actually are worthy.

755
00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:19,839
Speaker 8: If you believe it's because of your sexual orientation, you're

756
00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:22,400
Speaker 8: a theologians that can walk you through that there is

757
00:44:22,600 --> 00:44:26,560
Speaker 8: work and love and purpose and honor in the divine

758
00:44:26,719 --> 00:44:29,440
Speaker 8: for you, and so do that work to begin to

759
00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:34,680
Speaker 8: unravel and heal yourself. The text says, servant, heal thyself right,

760
00:44:35,080 --> 00:44:39,080
Speaker 8: know thyself, and heal thyself right, because if God lives

761
00:44:39,120 --> 00:44:42,520
Speaker 8: in you, then the healing and everything you need. We

762
00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:46,480
Speaker 8: profess Holy Spirit, right, even if you're not even Christian,

763
00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:49,680
Speaker 8: the spirit. We believe that there's something, that thing is

764
00:44:49,760 --> 00:44:51,719
Speaker 8: on the inside of you. If you begin to do

765
00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:54,920
Speaker 8: the work and begin to change the outside of you too, right,

766
00:44:54,960 --> 00:44:57,160
Speaker 8: and so give yourself over to that work.

767
00:44:57,920 --> 00:45:00,200
Speaker 7: Do y'all say this, I give you beautiful reletive. I

768
00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:04,040
Speaker 7: think as a just as a handle if you wanted

769
00:45:04,080 --> 00:45:06,280
Speaker 7: an idea. If you're in this space and you're searching,

770
00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:08,680
Speaker 7: one of the most beautiful prayers you can pray, because

771
00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:11,480
Speaker 7: the Bible points to the renewing of your mind being

772
00:45:11,520 --> 00:45:14,480
Speaker 7: the real conduit for transformation, not your action. So if

773
00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:17,120
Speaker 7: you just say, God, help me renew my mind. If

774
00:45:17,160 --> 00:45:18,600
Speaker 7: there is a God and he does hear us, and

775
00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:20,440
Speaker 7: we believe that he does, he will do that. It

776
00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:23,160
Speaker 7: doesn't when was the last time you thought again? When's

777
00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:25,120
Speaker 7: the last time you renewed your mind? And the Bible

778
00:45:25,160 --> 00:45:27,640
Speaker 7: points to this picture of us having the ability to

779
00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:30,120
Speaker 7: shake it off and say, let me think again, let

780
00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:32,400
Speaker 7: me see clearly, and God will answer that prayer. So

781
00:45:32,440 --> 00:45:35,160
Speaker 7: it's just a If you find yourself lonely today and

782
00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:37,200
Speaker 7: you leave here and you're thinking I don't know what

783
00:45:37,239 --> 00:45:40,640
Speaker 7: to pray. Lord, help me renew my mind is something

784
00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:43,080
Speaker 7: you'll never be sorry you ever said to Heaven.

785
00:45:48,560 --> 00:45:51,720
Speaker 4: Wow, I do not want to get off this stage.

786
00:45:52,040 --> 00:45:53,520
Speaker 7: We got to take up an offering now, So if

787
00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:58,120
Speaker 7: you can just look under your seat for an envelope.

788
00:45:57,840 --> 00:45:59,760
Speaker 6: I would make the joke and say locked the doors.

789
00:46:03,280 --> 00:46:05,880
Speaker 3: I just want to say to you both first, I

790
00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:09,000
Speaker 3: have such a deep admiration for each of you and

791
00:46:09,080 --> 00:46:12,200
Speaker 3: how you are carrying yourselves in the world and what

792
00:46:12,280 --> 00:46:16,800
Speaker 3: you were doing with your lived experience to stay deeply

793
00:46:16,800 --> 00:46:19,480
Speaker 3: connected with God, to serve, but to also bring people

794
00:46:19,480 --> 00:46:22,640
Speaker 3: to God and to bring people to whatever healing they

795
00:46:22,680 --> 00:46:24,560
Speaker 3: deserve to have happened within themselves.

796
00:46:24,640 --> 00:46:26,360
Speaker 4: Thank you both so much.

797
00:46:27,320 --> 00:46:30,000
Speaker 3: Your honesty, your wisdom, the courage to bring all of

798
00:46:30,040 --> 00:46:33,799
Speaker 3: this into this space. I think religious trauma is very

799
00:46:33,840 --> 00:46:38,000
Speaker 3: deeply personal, it's collective, and what we have heard here

800
00:46:38,120 --> 00:46:44,279
Speaker 3: is that it requires our own internal investigation, supercharged discernment,

801
00:46:45,480 --> 00:46:50,600
Speaker 3: accountability and self compassion and compassion for all ultimately, So

802
00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:53,000
Speaker 3: as we close, I really want to remind everyone in

803
00:46:53,040 --> 00:46:56,160
Speaker 3: the audience right now who's listening, who may be navigating

804
00:46:56,239 --> 00:47:01,800
Speaker 3: this quietly internally, whether it's your experience, your children, your parents,

805
00:47:01,840 --> 00:47:05,520
Speaker 3: however it presents. You are absolutely, as you've learned now

806
00:47:05,560 --> 00:47:08,799
Speaker 3: more than ever, not alone in this process. And I

807
00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:10,799
Speaker 3: want you to know that to a certain degree, like

808
00:47:10,840 --> 00:47:13,839
Speaker 3: if you grappled with this in earlier stages of your

809
00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:16,320
Speaker 3: life and decided not to go back to try to

810
00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:20,880
Speaker 3: figure that out. Life is changing, The world is rapidly

811
00:47:20,960 --> 00:47:27,400
Speaker 3: evolving and changing, and resources, people, communities, just the language

812
00:47:27,640 --> 00:47:30,239
Speaker 3: to understand what you may have walked through in your

813
00:47:30,360 --> 00:47:33,479
Speaker 3: life is now more readily available than it has ever

814
00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:39,240
Speaker 3: been in human history. In the history of humanity. We are,

815
00:47:39,440 --> 00:47:44,480
Speaker 3: you know, really coming to such a precipice with how

816
00:47:44,520 --> 00:47:47,719
Speaker 3: we experience God, but also how we experience ourselves, with

817
00:47:47,760 --> 00:47:50,680
Speaker 3: our mental health and our physical health. So there are

818
00:47:50,719 --> 00:47:54,440
Speaker 3: more answers than ever. Please start looking for them, you know,

819
00:47:54,560 --> 00:47:57,840
Speaker 3: even really refined Google searches could be a great start

820
00:47:57,880 --> 00:48:00,799
Speaker 3: to lead you somewhere looking up this term walking in

821
00:48:00,880 --> 00:48:03,800
Speaker 3: rooms with this term recently, Teddy, I didn't have a

822
00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:06,799
Speaker 3: chance to share this story with you, but I'm based

823
00:48:06,840 --> 00:48:09,799
Speaker 3: in la and I was meeting a friend for a

824
00:48:09,840 --> 00:48:12,839
Speaker 3: studio session, and we were having to talk about your

825
00:48:12,880 --> 00:48:16,359
Speaker 3: film outside and I opened the door and I'm not

826
00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:17,840
Speaker 3: going to say who it is, but the room was

827
00:48:17,880 --> 00:48:21,880
Speaker 3: filled with incredible musicians that we know and love. I

828
00:48:21,960 --> 00:48:23,960
Speaker 3: opened the door and the last thing I said as

829
00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:27,000
Speaker 3: I walked in, I go, well, yeah, because that's religious trauma.

830
00:48:27,640 --> 00:48:32,320
Speaker 3: Them hearing me say that word, the whole room went silent,

831
00:48:32,440 --> 00:48:34,760
Speaker 3: and they're like, can you say that again?

832
00:48:34,840 --> 00:48:36,880
Speaker 4: And I go, religious trauma.

833
00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:40,000
Speaker 3: And you just saw all these light bulbs go off

834
00:48:40,040 --> 00:48:43,200
Speaker 3: in people because they didn't have that framework of language.

835
00:48:43,640 --> 00:48:47,000
Speaker 3: And that turned into hours and hours of conversation about this.

836
00:48:47,160 --> 00:48:48,839
Speaker 3: And I know you know each one in the world

837
00:48:49,040 --> 00:48:51,279
Speaker 3: on their own search. But I say all that to

838
00:48:51,320 --> 00:48:54,000
Speaker 3: say again, there are more resources than ever. There are

839
00:48:54,040 --> 00:48:58,839
Speaker 3: more ways to really understand what your lived experience might

840
00:48:58,840 --> 00:49:01,000
Speaker 3: have been, but also where you can go from here

841
00:49:01,719 --> 00:49:03,799
Speaker 3: and how you can continue to build faith in your

842
00:49:03,800 --> 00:49:07,000
Speaker 3: heart and in your life and connect to a higher power.

843
00:49:07,120 --> 00:49:09,480
Speaker 3: So so grateful for everybody in this room. Thank you

844
00:49:09,520 --> 00:49:14,720
Speaker 3: for being here today. I'm Debbie Brown, doctor to oh Teddy,

845
00:49:14,719 --> 00:49:15,839
Speaker 3: would you mind sharing that?

846
00:49:16,040 --> 00:49:18,760
Speaker 8: Yes, I will be at the book table at one o'clock.

847
00:49:19,320 --> 00:49:21,400
Speaker 8: The first hundred people that join us there at the

848
00:49:21,480 --> 00:49:23,560
Speaker 8: museum will be giving you a free book. It's our

849
00:49:23,600 --> 00:49:26,680
Speaker 8: double exposure book. It looks at African American religion through

850
00:49:26,760 --> 00:49:31,799
Speaker 8: various traditions, Buddhism, Christianity, Santa Voodoo, through photography, and so

851
00:49:31,840 --> 00:49:34,359
Speaker 8: I'll encourage the first hundred people. It's a free book

852
00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:36,759
Speaker 8: on behalf of the National Museum of African American History

853
00:49:36,760 --> 00:49:37,240
Speaker 8: and Culture.

854
00:49:37,640 --> 00:49:39,919
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for making this possible for us,

855
00:49:40,280 --> 00:49:47,920
Speaker 3: Doctor Teddy Reeves, CARLNZ, thank you so much. Wow, thank you,

856
00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:50,960
Speaker 3: thank you, thank you everyone for opening your hearts to

857
00:49:51,280 --> 00:49:55,680
Speaker 3: this conversation. It can be a very triggering one for

858
00:49:55,760 --> 00:49:58,440
Speaker 3: a lot of reasons, and for many it might be

859
00:49:58,480 --> 00:50:01,440
Speaker 3: the very first time that you you are hearing of

860
00:50:02,600 --> 00:50:07,839
Speaker 3: this particular experience what religious trauma is. So I just

861
00:50:07,880 --> 00:50:10,279
Speaker 3: send a lot of love to you on holding your

862
00:50:10,360 --> 00:50:14,400
Speaker 3: curiosity for this and investigating where it may land in

863
00:50:14,440 --> 00:50:17,920
Speaker 3: your life or where you may have recognized it landing

864
00:50:17,960 --> 00:50:20,200
Speaker 3: in the life of someone you love or someone you know.

865
00:50:20,880 --> 00:50:24,360
Speaker 3: If you're navigating your own journey with religious trauma, reclaiming

866
00:50:24,400 --> 00:50:29,080
Speaker 3: your spiritual identity, or learning to trust yourself again, I

867
00:50:29,160 --> 00:50:32,000
Speaker 3: really want to remind you right now you're not alone

868
00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:35,839
Speaker 3: in this. This affects millions of people, and there is

869
00:50:36,200 --> 00:50:42,200
Speaker 3: nothing wrong or broken about you. Your questions, your pain,

870
00:50:42,760 --> 00:50:46,480
Speaker 3: and your longing for deeper connection are sacred and they're valid.

871
00:50:47,160 --> 00:50:50,400
Speaker 3: We're living in a time where language, resources and community

872
00:50:50,440 --> 00:50:54,520
Speaker 3: are expanding spaces for healing or growing, and there are

873
00:50:54,560 --> 00:50:58,080
Speaker 3: more paths than ever to explore your faith, your spirit,

874
00:50:58,360 --> 00:51:02,080
Speaker 3: and your truth at your own pace and in a

875
00:51:02,120 --> 00:51:07,160
Speaker 3: way that honors your wholeness and your unique path. As

876
00:51:07,200 --> 00:51:09,720
Speaker 3: you move forward, I hope that you continue building trust

877
00:51:09,760 --> 00:51:12,520
Speaker 3: in your own inner knowing, and may you remember that

878
00:51:12,560 --> 00:51:16,480
Speaker 3: your connection to God, to Spirit, to the divine, it

879
00:51:16,520 --> 00:51:20,320
Speaker 3: belongs to you and you alone. It cannot be taken,

880
00:51:20,560 --> 00:51:23,840
Speaker 3: it cannot be defined for you, and it can only

881
00:51:23,920 --> 00:51:29,120
Speaker 3: be lived from within. Take your time, seek support when

882
00:51:29,160 --> 00:51:35,000
Speaker 3: you needed, and hold yourself with compassion as you unlearn, unbuild.

883
00:51:34,760 --> 00:51:35,400
Speaker 5: And rise.

884
00:51:36,239 --> 00:51:40,520
Speaker 3: Thank you so much to doctor Teddy reeves to Carl

885
00:51:40,560 --> 00:51:47,480
Speaker 3: Lentz for the courage for the shepherding that was really

886
00:51:47,480 --> 00:51:52,359
Speaker 3: felt and received by this conversation, and I'm looking forward

887
00:51:52,440 --> 00:51:54,799
Speaker 3: to having many more. I know, after we got off

888
00:51:54,800 --> 00:51:58,120
Speaker 3: the stage from having this conversation, we the three of

889
00:51:58,160 --> 00:51:59,840
Speaker 3: us kind of huddled together and we were like, we

890
00:52:00,040 --> 00:52:01,279
Speaker 3: got to hit the road with this.

891
00:52:02,280 --> 00:52:02,520
Speaker 2: You know.

892
00:52:02,600 --> 00:52:05,960
Speaker 3: It's just yeah, I'm excited to continue to expand in

893
00:52:06,000 --> 00:52:11,000
Speaker 3: this conversation and especially with those two gentlemen, So please

894
00:52:11,040 --> 00:52:13,680
Speaker 3: share your thoughts and really the only soul work for

895
00:52:13,719 --> 00:52:20,920
Speaker 3: today's episode is give yourself the space, the time, and

896
00:52:21,000 --> 00:52:25,719
Speaker 3: the softness to explore where this episode is landing within

897
00:52:25,760 --> 00:52:30,520
Speaker 3: your body and start to ask why and how and

898
00:52:31,160 --> 00:52:34,799
Speaker 3: what you want to investigate about it moving forward. Thank

899
00:52:34,800 --> 00:52:37,399
Speaker 3: you for joining us on this episode. We'll be back

900
00:52:37,480 --> 00:52:40,680
Speaker 3: next week. Please share this episode with any friend you

901
00:52:40,719 --> 00:52:44,200
Speaker 3: think could use it. Share it on threads, share it

902
00:52:44,239 --> 00:52:48,040
Speaker 3: on IG on stories. If you're on X, share it

903
00:52:48,080 --> 00:52:52,160
Speaker 3: on X sub stack wherever the people are gathering, and

904
00:52:52,360 --> 00:52:52,640
Speaker 3: thank you.

905
00:52:53,719 --> 00:52:54,080
Speaker 6: Mistake.

906
00:52:57,280 --> 00:53:01,120
Speaker 3: The content presented on deeply well serve so for educational

907
00:53:01,200 --> 00:53:04,920
Speaker 3: and informational purposes. It should not be considered a replacement

908
00:53:05,000 --> 00:53:08,960
Speaker 3: for personalized medical or mental health guidance and does not

909
00:53:09,200 --> 00:53:14,080
Speaker 3: constitute a provider patient relationship. As always, it is advisable

910
00:53:14,160 --> 00:53:17,560
Speaker 3: to consult with your healthcare provider or health team for

911
00:53:17,719 --> 00:53:22,720
Speaker 3: any specific concerns or questions that you may have. Connect

912
00:53:22,719 --> 00:53:26,640
Speaker 3: with me on social at Debbie Brown that's Twitter and Instagram,

913
00:53:26,920 --> 00:53:29,800
Speaker 3: or you can go to my website Debbie Brown dot com.

914
00:53:29,840 --> 00:53:32,520
Speaker 3: And if you're listening to the show on Apple Podcasts.

915
00:53:32,600 --> 00:53:36,840
Speaker 3: Don't Forget, Please rate, review, and subscribe and send this

916
00:53:36,960 --> 00:53:37,920
Speaker 3: episode to a friend.

917
00:53:38,480 --> 00:53:39,319
Speaker 4: Deeply Well is.

918
00:53:39,239 --> 00:53:42,480
Speaker 3: A production of iHeartRadio and The Black Effect Network. It's

919
00:53:42,520 --> 00:53:47,160
Speaker 3: produced by Jacquess Thomas, Samantha Timmins, and me Debbie Brown.

920
00:53:47,800 --> 00:53:51,839
Speaker 3: The Beautiful Soundbath You heard That's by Jarrelen Glass from

921
00:53:51,920 --> 00:53:57,120
Speaker 3: Crystal Cadence. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio

922
00:53:57,239 --> 00:54:00,319
Speaker 3: app or wherever you listen to your favorite sh ouse.