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Speaker 1: Elizabeth Thomas is being welcome home to Columbia, Tennessee with

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Speaker 1: signs and banner. Her family says she is comfortable and breasting,

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Speaker 1: but has suffered severe emotional trauma. I'm just so overjoyed

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Speaker 1: to have her home, that she's saved. This is crime stories.

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Speaker 1: But Nancy Grace, the fifteen year old and her former

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Speaker 1: teacher were found more than two thousand miles away in

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Speaker 1: a remote cabinety in northern California with no electricity or

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Speaker 1: running water. And they said they're from Colorado, and he

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Speaker 1: said he had a house fire. He pulled me aside

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Speaker 1: at one point in the man a statement that he

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Speaker 1: was glad that this was all over. His sister says

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Speaker 1: he doesn't believe he kidnapped Elizabeth. I asked him why

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Speaker 1: why would he do this? And the answer he gave

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Speaker 1: me is that she wanted to run away, and she

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Speaker 1: wanted to leave, and he didn't want her to go along,

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Speaker 1: so he went with her solo. Who could know that

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Speaker 1: she was pit I Nancy Grace, this is crime storys

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Speaker 1: And as all you legal eagles already know, the Pervy

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Speaker 1: High school teacher Tad Cummings has been apprehended. He has

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Speaker 1: somehow managed to get his student, Elizabeth Thomas, almost three

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Speaker 1: thousand miles from her home in Columbia, Tennessee, going under

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Speaker 1: the radar, somehow, out foxing the police, the FBI, and

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Speaker 1: scores of egal eyes like you and myself trying to

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Speaker 1: spot them, he ends up in bar Claw Commune. Now,

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Speaker 1: for some reason, all the TV stations kept saying it's

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Speaker 1: not a commune, it's not a commune, it as a commune,

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Speaker 1: and if you look at a documentary about the commune,

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Speaker 1: it's clothing optional. Now catch this. He gets all the

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Speaker 1: way to the commune with this little girl that he's kidnapped,

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Speaker 1: and according to reports, he gets kicked out of the

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Speaker 1: commune because this fifty year old high school health science

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Speaker 1: teacher spends all of his time upstairs having sex with

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Speaker 1: the minor as opposed to doing his communal chores. After

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Speaker 1: about a week of that, he was out and had

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Speaker 1: to go live in a one bedroom cabin near the commune.

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Speaker 1: Joining me right now is special guest, the lawyer very

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Speaker 1: well respected in his jurisdiction, Jason Whatley, who has been

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Speaker 1: representing Elizabeth's family during this ordeal, and along with him,

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Speaker 1: his colleague Jason please introduce Francy, your colleague, Francie Abbott.

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Speaker 1: She's the brains of the law firm. She's right here

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Speaker 1: making sure I don't mess up. Well, I knew there

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Speaker 1: was a woman, a woman that was running things there.

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Speaker 1: Now I meet her. Hello, Francy Abbott, Thank you for

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Speaker 1: being with us. Hi, dear Jason. How is the family

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Speaker 1: holding up? And what was the reunion like when they

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Speaker 1: were finally joined with Elizabeth? You know, Nancy, the family

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Speaker 1: is doing ex actinitely well under the circumstances. I mean,

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Speaker 1: this has been hard. I mean, I'm not gonna sugarcoat this. Um.

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Speaker 1: This man didn't work on her um and they're gonna

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Speaker 1: be dealing with it for quite some time. Luckily, the

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Speaker 1: care providers we have are confident that they're going to

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Speaker 1: get her back to the right and state of mind. Now,

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Speaker 1: I don't want to give it some impression that she's um,

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Speaker 1: you know, not herself. At times she is and she's

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Speaker 1: just the sweetest thing when you meet her, UM, and

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Speaker 1: she's a child. I was gonna be very very clear,

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Speaker 1: this is this is something that is uh. It has

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Speaker 1: bothered me when people talk about this is some romance

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Speaker 1: or whatever they say, and this crazy stuff. And I

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Speaker 1: know she's fifteen, but look, let's just when I met her.

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Speaker 1: I will tell you, Nancy, the very first thought in

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Speaker 1: my head, and the first thought of my paralegal she

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Speaker 1: was there too, was this is a little child. She

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Speaker 1: she looks twelve, she acts twelve. Um. You know, I

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Speaker 1: don't know if and I don't mean to in the

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Speaker 1: offensive way, if she had her growth was a little

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Speaker 1: bit stunted, or if that's just the way she's developed

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Speaker 1: or whatever. But she's a tiny little thing. And uh,

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Speaker 1: and and she anybody who sees her would immediately think child,

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Speaker 1: not woman. And so this, the mug shot that we

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Speaker 1: had of her is just wrong. But the family has

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Speaker 1: been that they're doing great. I mean, the fact that

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Speaker 1: that she's she's home and safe and being cared for

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Speaker 1: is a sense of relief it can't even be described.

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Speaker 1: At the same time, there's lots of struggles and it

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Speaker 1: just is what it is. But they're gonna get through it.

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Speaker 1: They've got lots of help, and uh, you know, they're

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Speaker 1: cutting off media as of last night, and they're just

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Speaker 1: going to focus on the child and and uh, and

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Speaker 1: it's all that that, you know, that part of it's good.

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Speaker 1: You know, I want to ask this question of Francie

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Speaker 1: because I think she'll be able to answer a little

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Speaker 1: bit better than you. Jason, no offense, but when you

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Speaker 1: say that she was not really looks like a child, Francie.

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Speaker 1: When I looked at her in her picture, she always

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Speaker 1: had on baggy clothes, but she didn't even look like

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Speaker 1: she had developed as a woman at all. Like I

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Speaker 1: don't think she would even need a bra or anything.

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Speaker 1: She just looked like a skinny child. She she looked

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Speaker 1: like a little girl. She's definitely a child. A fifteen

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Speaker 1: year old is not fully developed, especially this one. She's

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Speaker 1: not at all. She's not even close to womanhood. I

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Speaker 1: think that's a good description, Nancy. I think she's you know,

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Speaker 1: she clearly she's she's post Jason, Jason, Jason, let me

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Speaker 1: let me just keep you from sticking your foot in

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Speaker 1: your mouth, because a man can't say it, but I

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Speaker 1: can say it. I mean, this little girl didn't even

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Speaker 1: need This little girl didn't even need a bra, okay

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Speaker 1: from the looks of it. And there she is with

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Speaker 1: this fifty year old man when he's having sex with her.

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Speaker 1: What that is? It's not sex, it's called statutory right,

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Speaker 1: that's what that is. But I'm just I got the

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Speaker 1: father was so overjoyed beyond words. I can only imagine

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Speaker 1: his relief that she was alive. Let me just tell you,

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Speaker 1: he is a a very stoic guy typically. Um even

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Speaker 1: at times I wish he had you know, there were

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Speaker 1: times if I could choreograph him, I would have said, Okay,

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Speaker 1: show some emotion here this or that. Um, this broke

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Speaker 1: him just seeing her when he finally saw her, He's

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Speaker 1: just broken. I mean, I've never in my in my

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Speaker 1: professional career, I don't know that I've ever had a

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Speaker 1: client weep the way in what he did. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it was he just in a gut wrenching fashion and

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Speaker 1: uncontrollable fashion. It was just very very very weepy. Uh,

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Speaker 1: And it just sort of hit him when finally she

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Speaker 1: was home. You know what the child had been through

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Speaker 1: and it is it was a very emotional time for everybody.

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Speaker 1: They're very emotional. Well, I can only imagine you're actually

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Speaker 1: bringing me to two years because it's reminding me of

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Speaker 1: my father. And he would well up and cry if

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Speaker 1: he thought I had a hard time even when I

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Speaker 1: was a grown lady, much less as a child. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: he you know, he's a very emotional person. In fact,

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Speaker 1: that's one of the things I don't mind saying this

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Speaker 1: that his his tendency to be emotional in her presence

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Speaker 1: is something we've had to uh rain in a little

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Speaker 1: bit because that's something that is difficult for her to

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Speaker 1: take right now. She's she's struggling in many different ways.

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Speaker 1: And and again she's got great family and friends support

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Speaker 1: around her. Uh, but but you know, she can't take

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Speaker 1: a lot of pressing in on her. She can't take

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Speaker 1: big crowds at all, or even modest sized crowds. Um,

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Speaker 1: you know, and she she uh people being emotional around her.

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Speaker 1: We've we've steered away from that. We try to keep

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Speaker 1: the conversation light. Um. You know, it's been uh it's

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Speaker 1: it's been at times sort of clinical. As you're in

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Speaker 1: her presence now, there have been lots of moments, extended moments.

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Speaker 1: I spent several hours with her on Sunday morning, uh,

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Speaker 1: just watching the kids play and it laughs and run

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Speaker 1: around and wrestle each other and and I mean it

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Speaker 1: was like normalcy. I mean, it was just it was

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Speaker 1: an amazing thing to watch and so um, you know,

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Speaker 1: that that was clearly just a snippet and it wasn't

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Speaker 1: the whole picture, but it was a beautiful picture to

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Speaker 1: see that she can get to that point. Let me

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Speaker 1: When you say that her father has to be reigned in,

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Speaker 1: you mean because he cries out of joy, or because

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Speaker 1: he's angry at what Tad Cummins did or what is it? What?

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Speaker 1: And I get it. I don't think my father could

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Speaker 1: have been reined in on something like this. But what

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Speaker 1: do you mean by that with respect to her presence?

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Speaker 1: Obviously it's his tears of joy? I mean he he

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Speaker 1: talked about this particular flavor of gatorade, some sort of

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Speaker 1: weird cucumber something gatorade that he he remember. He told

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Speaker 1: this touching story and it choked me up that he

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Speaker 1: um he wanted to get this for her when she returned,

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Speaker 1: and he and explaining why he wanted to get her

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Speaker 1: that particular flavor. He said that he knew it was

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Speaker 1: her favorite, and that he searched all over the gas

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Speaker 1: station for it one day, and uh, and he just

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Speaker 1: wanted to see this, this flavor. It reminded him of her,

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Speaker 1: and he could not find it. And he looked everywhere

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Speaker 1: and he could not find this. And it was almost

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Speaker 1: like it was a metaphor for the fact that she

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Speaker 1: was gone. And he just broke down and he just

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Speaker 1: he just wept over the fact he couldn't find this

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Speaker 1: particular flavor of gatorade, which was his daughter's he perceived

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Speaker 1: to be her favorite. We later found out that she

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Speaker 1: was humoring him a little bit, that that she liked it,

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Speaker 1: but not quite as much as he thought she did.

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Speaker 1: But he thought in his mind that that was it.

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Speaker 1: And and so it's just been very touching. But but

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Speaker 1: now I will tell you, and you may be referencing

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Speaker 1: this um. You know, I'm sure a lot of his tears.

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Speaker 1: The mixture of emotion also has to do with anger. Um,

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Speaker 1: because he is angry. He's very, very angry and wants justice.

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Speaker 1: I don't mean that anger's driving him. He's a loving,

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Speaker 1: caring person. But you know, how should any father feel

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Speaker 1: when their daughter was taken that way and something. Uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, a portion of her life was taken that

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Speaker 1: can never be returned. And you know what is the

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Speaker 1: response of a father supposed to be I know that

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Speaker 1: I would never be able to be the same. Frankly,

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Speaker 1: I'd have to be restrained if it were me. Let

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Speaker 1: me ask you this. I've said. That's a couple of times.

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Speaker 1: I want to make sure I'm right. I was under

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Speaker 1: the understanding that Elizabeth had been homeschooled, Is that right? Yes,

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Speaker 1: before her mother's ordeal where she was abused and all

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Speaker 1: the children were abused, and this happened over an extended

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Speaker 1: period of time, that before mother whoa, whoa, whoa. Wait

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Speaker 1: a minute, Wait a minute, Whitley, we are not putting

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Speaker 1: perfume on the pig. It's not an ordeal her mother

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Speaker 1: went through. Her mother was accused of abusing her children,

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Speaker 1: including Elizabeth. Okay, I agree with you. I agree. Thanks

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Speaker 1: for the correction that she she um when that happened.

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Speaker 1: When she exited, Elizabeth went into public school. That was

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Speaker 1: the middle of her eighth grade year. And so then

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Speaker 1: she there you go again, Whitley, there you go. She

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Speaker 1: did not exit. She lost her parental right because she

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Speaker 1: had been, according to a juvenile judge, abusing the children.

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Speaker 1: The standard proof was met and she could no longer

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Speaker 1: be with him. She didn't like go for a physical

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Speaker 1: therapy somewhere. It was a forced exit. That's the way

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Speaker 1: I look at it. But I mean it was Listen,

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Speaker 1: she's a horrible person and we can't stand her and

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Speaker 1: the family literally, the just on that note that she

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Speaker 1: had has had such a negative impact on these children

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Speaker 1: that just the side of her on media has been

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Speaker 1: extremely hurtful to even be adult children. I mean, they

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Speaker 1: just can't stand it with people don't understand really how

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Speaker 1: delicate the human mind is. Like when you were talking

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Speaker 1: about that Gatoray drink, My father every night after dinner

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Speaker 1: would want a decaf and I would make it for

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Speaker 1: him every night that he was with me. And I

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Speaker 1: remember when he was in that hospital bed, I begged

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Speaker 1: him to come back to and I'd make him a decaf.

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Speaker 1: Isn't that a funny thing out of all the things

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Speaker 1: I kind of said, And I'm just thinking out her

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Speaker 1: father trying to fight her favorite drink for her just

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Speaker 1: hurts my heart. I agree, Nancy. It's also it's gut wrenching, really,

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Speaker 1: and I just hope and pray that justice can be

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Speaker 1: done here. The fact that Tad Cummins yesterday made the

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Speaker 1: statement allegedly I wasn't there, but in federal court, that

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Speaker 1: he made the statement that he was looking forward to

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Speaker 1: defending these charges. What he said he did not he

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Speaker 1: said he's looking forward to defending these charges. Oh you

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Speaker 1: know what, you just named me the happiest one in

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Speaker 1: the world, because I tell you what. When he starts

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Speaker 1: up with a jury about I noticed that he said, oh,

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Speaker 1: kind of like blaming Elizabeth. It was her idea. She's

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Speaker 1: the one that says she wanted to run away, you

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Speaker 1: know what. B asked that child did not want to

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Speaker 1: want run away until he took her away. She never

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Speaker 1: run away in her life. No, she had not. And

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Speaker 1: let me tell you this it let's assume even for

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Speaker 1: one second that she went willingly. Now I agree that

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Speaker 1: she couldn't, but let's just assume in the sense of

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Speaker 1: how lay people look at it, she went. When I

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Speaker 1: heard this, keep in mind, and I'm just gonna tell

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Speaker 1: you this little tidbit. And this came out before when

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Speaker 1: she was found that this was out in the media,

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Speaker 1: and so I'm just reminded me of something that was

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Speaker 1: already out there. She told at least I think two

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Speaker 1: people that I know of, that she was so upset

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Speaker 1: at the ridicule that she was getting at school about

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Speaker 1: the kissing, that she was going to get out of there.

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Speaker 1: That in other words, she was talking about the idea

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Speaker 1: of leaving to a few people or at least two

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Speaker 1: that I that I'm that I know of, before she

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Speaker 1: left because of that. Now, think of the irony. If

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Speaker 1: that's true. The reason that she felt that ridicule was

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Speaker 1: because of Tad Cummins. He is the genesis of it.

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Speaker 1: He created it, and then he became her rescuer in

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Speaker 1: his eyes. I mean, the man is demented. So that's

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Speaker 1: fifty year old gray whiskered married man. Grandfather French kisses

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Speaker 1: this little girl right in the mouth in the school.

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Speaker 1: In the background, just in case you hear it, that's

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Speaker 1: my mother, Elizabeth French kisses her in the mouth at school,

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Speaker 1: gets caught. Then she gets ridiculed. She wants to run

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Speaker 1: away from everybody at school making fun of her, and

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Speaker 1: according to her reports, even the teachers saying it was

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Speaker 1: her fault. They should all be reprimanded for that. Everyone

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Speaker 1: that said that. So she wants to run away, and

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Speaker 1: so he says, oh, I took her because she wanted

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Speaker 1: to run away. I mean the irony as you just

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Speaker 1: pointed out. But I'll tell you another observation. This child

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Speaker 1: had been homeschooled and kept in the home. She looks

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Speaker 1: like a twelve year old girl at best. The way

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Speaker 1: she's built, well, thin thing, and I would put money

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Speaker 1: on it. Not that this is gonna make a difference

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Speaker 1: in a court of law, but you know, this child

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Speaker 1: had never been with a man before. And then she

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Speaker 1: goes out with this fifty year old lout and they

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Speaker 1: start having sex in a commune. Oh, dear Lord in Heaven,

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Speaker 1: I can't wait for him to so called defend himself

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Speaker 1: and all of this come out. And I guarantee you

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Speaker 1: they're gonna bring on those people at that commune because

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Speaker 1: if Elizabeth has been brainwashed, as I think she may

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Speaker 1: have been, Hey, she may come out of it by

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Speaker 1: that time, but be they will need to corroborate everything

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Speaker 1: that she says. If she cannot testify a chial, they'll

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Speaker 1: bring on those clothing optional commune members and they will

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Speaker 1: describe what they heard upstairs where that dirty mattresses on

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Speaker 1: that upstairs floor. M And when the jury hears that

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Speaker 1: they they won't be able to convict fast enough, they

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Speaker 1: won't even have a soda break in deliberation, still go

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Speaker 1: straight to the Yeah. I think that he's a legend

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Speaker 1: in his own mind. I think that these statements speak

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Speaker 1: to just the level of narcissism that exists in Tad Cummins.

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Speaker 1: He believes his own fantasy at this point. And the

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Speaker 1: fact that the thing, if you just think about it

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Speaker 1: for a second, Nancy, I mean, just step back for

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Speaker 1: a second. Thing, Okay, I left. This is his story.

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Speaker 1: I left because she wanted to run away, and I

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Speaker 1: wanted to protect her. That's the story that's coming out

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Speaker 1: that I've been reading that about the people that were

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Speaker 1: there in court, and and and the story that came

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Speaker 1: from his sister too. I don't know if you saw

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Speaker 1: that interview. His sister got interviewed. She had talked to him,

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Speaker 1: and he allegedly claims that he wanted to protect her.

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Speaker 1: So to protect her, he takes her. He cuts her hair,

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Speaker 1: he dyes her hair, he takes her three thousand miles away.

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Speaker 1: She eats wild flowers. She's basically, uh, famished for food,

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Speaker 1: she lives in god forsaken environment with naked men walking

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Speaker 1: around at least supporting the reports. And I'm not comment

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Speaker 1: on what I know, okay, but all of these things

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Speaker 1: and then God forbid the things that we think we're happening,

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Speaker 1: and that's rescuing her. I mean, I mean this, this man.

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Speaker 1: I don't want to say he's insane, because he's not

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Speaker 1: clinically insane to the point that he can't stand trial. Um,

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Speaker 1: but but he's an evil man. I'll say that, and

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Speaker 1: I'll stick with that. It's Francy Abbott still there. Yes, Francy,

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Speaker 1: do you have children? No? I did not. Let me

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Speaker 1: tell you something. The last thing I want is from

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Speaker 1: my daughter to be in a situation where she sees

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Speaker 1: a bunch of naked men walking around. Well, that's not

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Speaker 1: the absolute last thing I want, but it is way

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Speaker 1: way way up there on the list. So I'm just

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Speaker 1: trying to think back. Think with me, Francy. At the

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Speaker 1: time you were had just turned fifteen. I mean, I

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00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:51,640
Speaker 1: didn't know anything about the world. I had a very

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Speaker 1: very happy childhood, and I mean I knew nothing at all.

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Speaker 1: And I think that that is the way Elizabeth was

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Speaker 1: what can you tell me, Jason about what we are

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Speaker 1: learning from the U. S. Attorney's office that he had

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Speaker 1: actually planned to get a watercraft, a boat of some sort,

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Speaker 1: and leave and get to Mexico with her. Well, he

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Speaker 1: did get a watercraft, as I understand, that's my understanding.

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Speaker 1: He did get one, and there was some sort of

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Speaker 1: test run. I don't know if he rented it or

355
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Speaker 1: bought it. I thought he purchased some sort of watercraft

356
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Speaker 1: and he went into Mexican waters. That's my understanding with her. Um,

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Speaker 1: you know again part this was all part of this.

358
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Speaker 1: So this fantasy idea of his, I mean, what are

359
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Speaker 1: you gonna do hit the shores in Mexico and didn't

360
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Speaker 1: what What's he gonna walk along the beach, say one

361
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Speaker 1: to day like on Shaw Shank Redemption and he's, you know,

362
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Speaker 1: gonna fix up a boat. I mean, it's just crazy.

363
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Speaker 1: I mean the man, uh is you know, he starts

364
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Speaker 1: to believe his own sort of comic book fantasy reality. Um.

365
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Speaker 1: And I'm gonna tell you right now, I absolutely believe

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Speaker 1: that Elizabeth Thomas is going to get to a point,

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Speaker 1: and I think sooner rather than later where she understands

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Speaker 1: this She's got the best of the best working with her,

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Speaker 1: and these people are consummate professionals, and they know exactly

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Speaker 1: what they're doing to do with her trauma. And so

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Speaker 1: I'm very confident that she's going to be an effective

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Speaker 1: witness against Ted Cummins. So he had already procured a watercraft.

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Speaker 1: How did he manage to do that on the with

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Speaker 1: the amount of money that he had, Well, I don't

375
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Speaker 1: know what kind of watercraft it was. So and I

376
00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:33,399
Speaker 1: know this, they were they were nearing the end in

377
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Speaker 1: terms of the money. So that so the whale had

378
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Speaker 1: dried up and they're going to figure out a way.

379
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Speaker 1: He was going to figure out a way to live.

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Speaker 1: And he was already speaking for her. I mean one

381
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Speaker 1: of the things in the reports I saw that was

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Speaker 1: so it's just telling is that even these these folks

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Speaker 1: in this commune would say that he would speak for her.

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Speaker 1: You know, she couldn't speak. He would, he would answer

385
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Speaker 1: the questions, he would shush her or whatever to keep

386
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Speaker 1: her from talking. He control of this situation. I mean,

387
00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:04,720
Speaker 1: think about it, Jason, what does it say about you

388
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Speaker 1: when you're out in the middle of nowhere where it's

389
00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:12,480
Speaker 1: a twenty mile ish rugged road to find bear Claw commune.

390
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Speaker 1: People that clearly are antisocial, walking around half naked or

391
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Speaker 1: totally naked, living off the land, eating wildflowers whatever. To

392
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Speaker 1: each her own, and they kick you out even they

393
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Speaker 1: don't want you. They thought Dad, there was something wrong

394
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Speaker 1: with Dad Cummins. Now, I mean, come on, that ain't right.

395
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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, absolutely, I thought of that. I'm not trying

396
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Speaker 1: to discourage the disparage those folks out there, But but

397
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Speaker 1: you know, they said one of their intros they said

398
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Speaker 1: they accept wickens wizards, and it was a colorful list.

399
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Speaker 1: I'm not saying there's anything wrong with them. What I'm

400
00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:56,719
Speaker 1: saying is that people who don't follow traditional rules, even

401
00:22:57,119 --> 00:23:01,840
Speaker 1: they knew something was very wrong with this, just innately,

402
00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:05,800
Speaker 1: just naturally, you touched on something, you know there. I'm

403
00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:08,560
Speaker 1: a strong believer in natural law. I believe that. I

404
00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:11,440
Speaker 1: believe that inside the conscience of every human being, regardless

405
00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:14,920
Speaker 1: of the worldview, unless they're just a complete sociopath, there's

406
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Speaker 1: something telling them fundamentally what's right and wrong. Now they

407
00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:22,280
Speaker 1: can debate different different points and finer points, but at

408
00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:24,760
Speaker 1: the end of the day, um And and C. S

409
00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:29,000
Speaker 1: Lewis went through this in detail in books like mere Christianity.

410
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Speaker 1: But but the fact of it is, deep down in

411
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Speaker 1: them they knew this was wrong. They knew something was wrong,

412
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Speaker 1: and you know, in prison is the same way you

413
00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:40,359
Speaker 1: can have a cold hearted killer who finds a person

414
00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:43,119
Speaker 1: in prison who abused the child and look out for

415
00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:46,159
Speaker 1: the person who abused the child. People know that you

416
00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:48,919
Speaker 1: don't mess with kids, and you don't mess with little girls,

417
00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:51,400
Speaker 1: and you don't do this kind of thing. So let

418
00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:54,000
Speaker 1: me ask you this. Are you telling me that he

419
00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:58,000
Speaker 1: actually took this child out on the open waters to

420
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Speaker 1: get into Mexican waters? That's my understanding. Now, I don't

421
00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:04,520
Speaker 1: I gotta tell you. I'm I'm trying to gather the

422
00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:07,439
Speaker 1: facts like everybody else, so so check me all my facts.

423
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Speaker 1: But see, we don't have any of that direct We're

424
00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:12,280
Speaker 1: getting all of this fed to our via the U. S.

425
00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:15,120
Speaker 1: Attorney's office or the FBI. We're just trying to get

426
00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:18,560
Speaker 1: the full picture. But that's my understanding, Jason and Nancy.

427
00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:20,800
Speaker 1: I have the court filing from the U. S. Attorney

428
00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:23,960
Speaker 1: right in front of me, and according to the court filing,

429
00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:29,000
Speaker 1: Cummins admitted to planning to attempt to escape across the

430
00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:32,160
Speaker 1: US border. To Mexico. He then planned to seek passage

431
00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:36,359
Speaker 1: to countries further south of Mexico. In furtherance of this plan,

432
00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:40,600
Speaker 1: the defendant procured a small watercraft and conducted a test

433
00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:44,439
Speaker 1: run to cross into Mexico across the waters from San Diego.

434
00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:47,480
Speaker 1: The defendant also consider the feasibility of a land crossing

435
00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:50,440
Speaker 1: into Mexico. That is in the sworn statement that was

436
00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:54,640
Speaker 1: filed yesterday. There you go, when you say she's working

437
00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:57,400
Speaker 1: with the best of the best, what do you mean

438
00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:00,080
Speaker 1: by that? Like, is she working with child psycholo and

439
00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:03,400
Speaker 1: just is somebody going to at some point interview her

440
00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:07,000
Speaker 1: about what happened before the memory starts to fade. But

441
00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:10,080
Speaker 1: you don't want to rush it. It's a very delicate thing. Jason.

442
00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:12,400
Speaker 1: That's a great question, and I'm gonna tell you we've

443
00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:15,520
Speaker 1: been working with that exact question in detail. And here's

444
00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:18,200
Speaker 1: the bottom line. We know that law enforcement has a

445
00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:19,840
Speaker 1: job to do. We know that they're going to have

446
00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:22,399
Speaker 1: to question her further. We know they didn't finish their

447
00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:26,479
Speaker 1: questioning of her UM, their forensic interview of there of

448
00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:29,800
Speaker 1: her when she was first rescued UM, and so we

449
00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:31,760
Speaker 1: know that's coming, and we're working with them. They're great

450
00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:34,480
Speaker 1: people at the FBI that that are very sensitive to

451
00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:36,480
Speaker 1: her needs. But at the same time, I'm going to

452
00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:41,239
Speaker 1: tell you that her needs also require understanding reality and

453
00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:44,000
Speaker 1: understanding these things as part of the therapeutic process. So

454
00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:46,639
Speaker 1: I would I will tell you that that these folks

455
00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:48,840
Speaker 1: that are working with her, which is a team of

456
00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:54,639
Speaker 1: extremely qualified people, are are will be at least working

457
00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:59,040
Speaker 1: hand in hand with the FBI in conducting uh an

458
00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:03,320
Speaker 1: interview at the appropriate time, which serves dual purposes. So

459
00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:06,520
Speaker 1: it serves their purpose and the therapeutic purpose. And so

460
00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:08,680
Speaker 1: that is going to happen, and it's very much on

461
00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:11,119
Speaker 1: the radar screen of everyone involved. Well, I want to

462
00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:14,600
Speaker 1: tell you something. Jason Allen and I all along, we

463
00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:18,359
Speaker 1: just wanted to keep covering this even when there wasn't

464
00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:23,439
Speaker 1: real news, even when nothing new had happened, because I

465
00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:27,399
Speaker 1: felt that every day he would get X number of

466
00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:32,399
Speaker 1: miles further away, every night would be another round a

467
00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:37,080
Speaker 1: statutory rape on this child, and as the days passed

468
00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:40,280
Speaker 1: and the weeks passed, she would get brainwashed to the

469
00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:43,159
Speaker 1: point where there was a point of no return that

470
00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:45,840
Speaker 1: they would get to Mexico, they would get out of

471
00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:50,359
Speaker 1: the country and beyond the reach of her father in

472
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:55,320
Speaker 1: the US government. And just look how close they were.

473
00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:59,040
Speaker 1: He had already done a test run on a boat

474
00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:02,159
Speaker 1: to get to Mexico, had run out of money. I

475
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:05,640
Speaker 1: was just trying to make some money and then leave

476
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:09,640
Speaker 1: this country. And you know, I just thank god he

477
00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:13,560
Speaker 1: was caught in time. I'm amazed when I look at

478
00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:19,200
Speaker 1: the process of how he was caught, because the the process,

479
00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:22,000
Speaker 1: as per the training of these law enforcement guys worked

480
00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:25,720
Speaker 1: perfectly in the end, at least. I'm not saying, you know,

481
00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:28,359
Speaker 1: whether somebody could argue there were there were missteps along

482
00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:30,919
Speaker 1: the way, and I'm not saying there were, but I

483
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:34,399
Speaker 1: think the process worked to a t at the end

484
00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:39,040
Speaker 1: because here's what happened. The media did its job. Your show,

485
00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:43,679
Speaker 1: other media outlets that kept the story alive. This person,

486
00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:50,959
Speaker 1: what's his name, Francy uh Griffin, Griffin, Barry, he sees

487
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:54,440
Speaker 1: these there's another person that actually had seen the broadcast,

488
00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:58,639
Speaker 1: and then they communicated with him, and then he saw

489
00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:02,440
Speaker 1: this and recognized them. And then even after that point

490
00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:05,720
Speaker 1: when he calls law enforcement, they didn't They didn't tell

491
00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:08,800
Speaker 1: me at that point. Now, now, we were frustrated at

492
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:12,600
Speaker 1: times because we wanted more information. The law enforcement didn't

493
00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:15,040
Speaker 1: give us that information right away because frankly, what if

494
00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:17,280
Speaker 1: I had run to the media, because the media had

495
00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:20,280
Speaker 1: been very helpful up until that exact moment, And then

496
00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:22,880
Speaker 1: exactly at that exact moment, they had to have complete

497
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:25,520
Speaker 1: secrecy because they had to get in there and get

498
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:28,800
Speaker 1: him before he heard about it. Obviously they didn't have

499
00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:31,000
Speaker 1: cable television where they were, but maybe they had some

500
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:33,879
Speaker 1: of their means to know. And so what happened at

501
00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:37,199
Speaker 1: that point was the sheriff gut involved over there and frankly,

502
00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:40,080
Speaker 1: and I credit our t B I because my understanding

503
00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:41,560
Speaker 1: is the sheriff was going to move in and check

504
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:44,120
Speaker 1: it out with a couple of patrolmen, and uh, our

505
00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:47,160
Speaker 1: t B I said, uh no, you don't want to

506
00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:50,880
Speaker 1: do that. This guy's armed and told about the situation.

507
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:53,400
Speaker 1: So they went in with their swat team and took

508
00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:55,920
Speaker 1: care of business and it and it was two hours

509
00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:58,320
Speaker 1: away from their sheriff's department through snow. I mean, they

510
00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:01,120
Speaker 1: just did a phenomenal job and and surrounded the place

511
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:03,400
Speaker 1: so that once the gig was up, there was no

512
00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:06,320
Speaker 1: place for Cummings to go. And so they had they

513
00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:09,479
Speaker 1: had him wrapped up, and uh, I'm just so proud

514
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:12,320
Speaker 1: of that process. And I'll tell you, the family is

515
00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:17,560
Speaker 1: so immensely thankful to the public for remaining vigilant and

516
00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:20,320
Speaker 1: interested in this story, because without it, I'm gonna tell

517
00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:22,920
Speaker 1: you right now, she wouldn't be home. That's it. Without

518
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:26,640
Speaker 1: the interest generated through the media, she would still be

519
00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:29,240
Speaker 1: out there. God forbid, but that's the way we believe

520
00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:31,280
Speaker 1: it would have been. But instead we had all this

521
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:36,080
Speaker 1: coverage and as a result, somebody finally saw them and

522
00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:39,520
Speaker 1: did the right thing. And uh, and now she's home.

523
00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:42,040
Speaker 1: It's just amazing that it worked because we were afraid,

524
00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:44,640
Speaker 1: just like you, we were afraid that we'd never see

525
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:47,480
Speaker 1: her again. And for her to finally show up, I

526
00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:49,160
Speaker 1: gotta tell you, when I met her for the first time,

527
00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:51,440
Speaker 1: I mean, it was hard for me to keep my

528
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:53,440
Speaker 1: composure because it was just I felt like I already

529
00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:56,680
Speaker 1: knew her. I've never even met her, and uh, and

530
00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:58,840
Speaker 1: there she was. I wasn't expecting to ever see her

531
00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:01,320
Speaker 1: and I got to meet her, and and it's just

532
00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:04,280
Speaker 1: been surreal. Jason, I understand this week, you're going to

533
00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:07,640
Speaker 1: actually meet this Griffin Berry. He's coming to town and

534
00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:10,640
Speaker 1: he's gonna be with my good friend Chandler Anderson and

535
00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:13,280
Speaker 1: Blake Hide, his partner, and they're they're gonna give him

536
00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:16,280
Speaker 1: a nice check which he earned. And I'm looking forward

537
00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:18,280
Speaker 1: to meeting this young man. And guess what, he's from

538
00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:21,680
Speaker 1: Middle Tennessee, went to Britwood Academy and decided he'd go

539
00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:24,560
Speaker 1: out west and live at that commune. But he's he's

540
00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:27,160
Speaker 1: a local boy of all things, a local Middle Tennessee

541
00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:30,160
Speaker 1: native was the one who finally solve them. Wow, you

542
00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:33,520
Speaker 1: know what, that is really just incredible at such a

543
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:37,800
Speaker 1: twist of fate that a local guy helps bring her home.

544
00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:41,480
Speaker 1: And I want to just address something you said about missteps.

545
00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:45,920
Speaker 1: You know what, every time you do anything, there's a misstep.

546
00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:48,680
Speaker 1: You know, think about all those Olympians. They don't do

547
00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:51,880
Speaker 1: it perfectly. The first time they practice practice practice, they

548
00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:54,520
Speaker 1: fall off the beam, they trip, they fall, they get hurt,

549
00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:57,240
Speaker 1: they get up, they try again. And that's what law

550
00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:00,800
Speaker 1: enforcement does. Everybody's always so darn hard onlaw enforcement. Oh

551
00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:03,200
Speaker 1: you did this wrong, you did that wrong. You know

552
00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:07,480
Speaker 1: in hindsight, hindsight is always twenty what you should have,

553
00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:10,200
Speaker 1: could have, would have done. But when you're in it

554
00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:16,240
Speaker 1: and you're trying your best. Yes, you're gonna have mistakes,

555
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:19,160
Speaker 1: you're gonna do some things wrong in your effort to

556
00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:22,440
Speaker 1: do something right. And I mean I would leave court

557
00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:24,840
Speaker 1: a million times and just kick myself, why didn't I

558
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:26,440
Speaker 1: do this? Why didn't I do that? Well, when you're

559
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:30,040
Speaker 1: in the middle of it, and you're in the arena

560
00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:33,239
Speaker 1: and you're dirty and you're bleeding and you're sweating and

561
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:36,480
Speaker 1: you're hurting and you're trying to keep going, you know what, Yeah,

562
00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:40,440
Speaker 1: you're gonna screw up. But in the end, they won.

563
00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:46,640
Speaker 1: They they saved her life. So I'm very sensitive about people,

564
00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:50,040
Speaker 1: you know, trashing the police by what they could have

565
00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:54,320
Speaker 1: done and should have done, because they're trying. For Pete's sake.

566
00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:57,400
Speaker 1: Nobody else is out there doing it. It's the police

567
00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:00,600
Speaker 1: doing it, the FBI, the tb I, they are the ones.

568
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:03,640
Speaker 1: So they're the ones putting their life on the line.

569
00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:07,560
Speaker 1: You referenced the trs in the arena quote, which is

570
00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:11,240
Speaker 1: one of my favorites. Um and uh, and that's so true.

571
00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:15,320
Speaker 1: I mean, they're they're in the arena. Um and anybody

572
00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:17,880
Speaker 1: involved in the legal system is and and frankly, in

573
00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:22,000
Speaker 1: any human endeavor you do your best and uh and

574
00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:24,440
Speaker 1: you spend yourself in a worthy cause, as he said,

575
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:27,800
Speaker 1: and and uh and you do fail again and again,

576
00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:30,560
Speaker 1: but you get up, you know, and uh, I love

577
00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:33,160
Speaker 1: the last part of that says, so that your place

578
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:35,520
Speaker 1: will not be with those cold and timid souls who

579
00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:39,080
Speaker 1: know neither victory nor defeat. And uh and so you're

580
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:42,800
Speaker 1: in the arena and and these guys clearly were and

581
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:45,920
Speaker 1: are in the arena. And I gotta I gotta tell

582
00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:49,000
Speaker 1: you personally, I have nothing but praise for the efforts

583
00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:51,200
Speaker 1: of law enforcement in this case, from the local level

584
00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:54,120
Speaker 1: all the way to the federal level. Uh. I was

585
00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:59,880
Speaker 1: immensely impressed with their dedication. They're they're absolute, uh insatiable

586
00:32:59,920 --> 00:33:03,920
Speaker 1: to desire to find her and rescue her. Um and

587
00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:05,760
Speaker 1: they did it. And it's just one of those stories

588
00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:08,320
Speaker 1: where it's going to have a happy ending. I mean,

589
00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:10,360
Speaker 1: we're already there, but there's a long ways to go.

590
00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:14,640
Speaker 1: But uh, but but this thing's gonna end as it should.

591
00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:17,560
Speaker 1: It should have never happened, but now that it happened,

592
00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:19,440
Speaker 1: it's going to end the way it ought to happen.

593
00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:23,160
Speaker 1: And that means commings behind bars and Elizabeth living a

594
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:25,520
Speaker 1: happy and free life. You know, I know this is

595
00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:29,120
Speaker 1: also tortuous to his wife to see your husband do

596
00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:32,880
Speaker 1: this and leave you after all these years, and I

597
00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:35,320
Speaker 1: mean after I gave birth to the twins and Lucy

598
00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:38,960
Speaker 1: and I almost died during all that. I mean, if

599
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:43,000
Speaker 1: my husband left me and after all that, Honey, you'd

600
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:45,680
Speaker 1: have to get the shotgun out of my hand, okay

601
00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:50,680
Speaker 1: and taken away from me. Jason, I'll definitely hire you,

602
00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:53,240
Speaker 1: you know, to defend me if I ever have to

603
00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:57,520
Speaker 1: shoot my husband. Okay. So anyway, I only wish I

604
00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:01,080
Speaker 1: could shove him in the jail cell myself and turn

605
00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:03,840
Speaker 1: the key and throw it away. But I guess I

606
00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:07,719
Speaker 1: will leave that to the jury and the warden at

607
00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:12,000
Speaker 1: whatever correctional institute he may end up at. Jason Wiley

608
00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:14,440
Speaker 1: and especially you, Francy ab but I wish you had

609
00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:18,800
Speaker 1: said more. But once again, Whatley hogged it all. Jason,

610
00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:24,839
Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. You're awesome and I

611
00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:27,480
Speaker 1: feel that over all these weeks, you know, I've met

612
00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:32,720
Speaker 1: a colleague and a friend, Jason, and You've really been awesome. Again,

613
00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:37,400
Speaker 1: I want to thank everyone, including our sponsor, Simply Safe,

614
00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:43,279
Speaker 1: making home security and fire protection available to everybody now

615
00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:49,440
Speaker 1: simply safe dot com slash Nancy Nancy Grace, signing off

616
00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:52,680
Speaker 1: once again from Crime Stories. Goodbye friend,