1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:04,120 Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language, along with references 2 00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:07,280 Speaker 1: to sexual assault. Listener discretion is advised. 3 00:00:11,920 --> 00:00:15,000 Speaker 2: People don't understand how much they care and how much 4 00:00:15,040 --> 00:00:17,480 Speaker 2: they're working with the family and don't want to disappoint 5 00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:21,400 Speaker 2: the family that they are invested in this case and 6 00:00:21,480 --> 00:00:24,319 Speaker 2: it means so much to them that they're able to 7 00:00:24,360 --> 00:00:25,680 Speaker 2: do justice for the victim. 8 00:00:31,240 --> 00:00:34,879 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor 9 00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:35,879 Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. 10 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:38,639 Speaker 3: I'm also the host of the historical true crime. 11 00:00:38,440 --> 00:00:41,760 Speaker 1: Podcast tenfold More Wicked, as well as the co host 12 00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:45,240 Speaker 1: of the new show Buried Bones, both on Exactly Right. 13 00:00:45,560 --> 00:00:48,400 Speaker 1: I've traveled around the world interviewing people for the show. 14 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:51,120 Speaker 1: I've interviewed some people in person and some from my 15 00:00:51,159 --> 00:00:54,880 Speaker 1: home studio over zoom, and they are all excellent writers. 16 00:00:55,080 --> 00:00:58,120 Speaker 1: They've had so many great true crime stories and now 17 00:00:58,160 --> 00:01:01,040 Speaker 1: we want to tell you those stories with details that 18 00:01:01,080 --> 00:01:02,400 Speaker 1: have never been published. 19 00:01:02,560 --> 00:01:03,960 Speaker 3: Tenfold More Wicked. 20 00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:07,319 Speaker 1: Presents Wicked Words is about the choices that writers make, 21 00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:08,399 Speaker 1: good and bad. 22 00:01:08,680 --> 00:01:11,800 Speaker 3: It's a deep dive into the stories behind the stories. 23 00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:17,080 Speaker 1: Jerry Williams is a retired FBI agent and she wrote 24 00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:21,320 Speaker 1: a book called FBI Myths and Misconceptions. She also has 25 00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:25,720 Speaker 1: a podcast called FBI Retired Case File Review. Jerry has 26 00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:29,320 Speaker 1: a unique perspective as a former agent and a woman 27 00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:32,520 Speaker 1: of color. In this episode, she helps me break down 28 00:01:32,560 --> 00:01:37,560 Speaker 1: the polyclass case from the FBI's point of view. What 29 00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:40,640 Speaker 1: are your qualifications? What gives you the right to write 30 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:43,280 Speaker 1: a book about debunking myths about the FBI. 31 00:01:43,760 --> 00:01:47,600 Speaker 2: Not only was I an FBI agent for twenty six years, 32 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:52,000 Speaker 2: but in the last five years of my career, I 33 00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:56,080 Speaker 2: was the spokesperson for the Philadelphia office, and that meant 34 00:01:56,080 --> 00:02:00,120 Speaker 2: that I was responsible for providing the public and the 35 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:04,680 Speaker 2: news media with information about what the Philadelphia Office was doing. 36 00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:09,919 Speaker 2: I also was responsible in designing projects and programs that 37 00:02:10,200 --> 00:02:14,480 Speaker 2: created a positive perception of the Philadelphia Office, and of 38 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:17,440 Speaker 2: course I worked with our headquarters doing all of that too. 39 00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:21,600 Speaker 2: So I really learned how important it was that the 40 00:02:21,639 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 2: public had a good perception of who the FBI was 41 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:26,800 Speaker 2: and what the FBI did. 42 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:31,080 Speaker 1: Was it challenging to be a woman of color wearing 43 00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:32,720 Speaker 1: an FBI badge? 44 00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:37,320 Speaker 2: I have always been honest and admitted that during the 45 00:02:37,360 --> 00:02:41,919 Speaker 2: first four years of my FBI career, I wondered if 46 00:02:41,919 --> 00:02:44,880 Speaker 2: I would be accepted. There were a number of issues 47 00:02:44,880 --> 00:02:48,919 Speaker 2: that happened that I found disturbing, and by the time 48 00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:51,560 Speaker 2: I got to my fourth year, I was wondering if 49 00:02:51,600 --> 00:02:54,000 Speaker 2: it was the right place for me. And I was 50 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:57,160 Speaker 2: actually not just thinking about quitting, but I took some 51 00:02:57,360 --> 00:03:00,800 Speaker 2: active measures into trying to see if there was another 52 00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:05,320 Speaker 2: job that I could go to that paid as well. Luckily, 53 00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:09,519 Speaker 2: things happen that year in nineteen eighty six. I came 54 00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:13,919 Speaker 2: in in nineteen eighty two. That really made me determined 55 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:14,760 Speaker 2: to stick it out. 56 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:18,560 Speaker 1: So, just talking about current events briefly, do you feel 57 00:03:18,639 --> 00:03:21,080 Speaker 1: caught in the middle a little bit being a person 58 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:23,640 Speaker 1: of color with Black Lives Matter and everything that's happening 59 00:03:23,639 --> 00:03:27,120 Speaker 1: with law enforcement versus you know, obviously you are part 60 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:31,000 Speaker 1: of the FBI culture. That has to be difficult sometimes. 61 00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:34,639 Speaker 2: Yes, not only am I a member of the FBI culture, 62 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:38,920 Speaker 2: but we consider ourselves investigators part of law enforcement, and 63 00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:44,800 Speaker 2: so I do believe that law enforcement is necessary. But 64 00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:48,840 Speaker 2: also as an African American, I know I can see 65 00:03:48,880 --> 00:03:53,119 Speaker 2: that there is injustice, and I can see that our 66 00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:57,520 Speaker 2: court systems are not necessarily fair when it comes to 67 00:03:57,720 --> 00:04:00,880 Speaker 2: people of color, and so yes, there are many times 68 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:04,280 Speaker 2: when I may see people in the law enforcement community 69 00:04:04,760 --> 00:04:09,040 Speaker 2: looking at a case that is in the media and saying, oh, 70 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:11,920 Speaker 2: you know, the police officer did nothing wrong and this 71 00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:14,240 Speaker 2: guy should have not resisted, and you know, on and 72 00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:17,599 Speaker 2: on and on, and I'm screaming like, what are you 73 00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:20,360 Speaker 2: talking about? Look at the video. And so, yeah, there 74 00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:23,920 Speaker 2: are times when there is a pool and you know 75 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:27,480 Speaker 2: that can be somewhat awkward and difficult at times, and 76 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:32,560 Speaker 2: really hurtful at times when I read or hear what 77 00:04:32,760 --> 00:04:37,640 Speaker 2: my colleagues are saying. Sometimes it is just hurtful. There's 78 00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:39,080 Speaker 2: no other word to describe it. 79 00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:41,719 Speaker 1: Well, I think you have a unique perspective, so I'll 80 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:44,520 Speaker 1: really be interested in hearing you help me break down 81 00:04:44,560 --> 00:04:48,239 Speaker 1: the polyclass case. Let's go back, though, to the book 82 00:04:48,279 --> 00:04:52,320 Speaker 1: that you've written, which is the FBI Myths and Misconceptions, 83 00:04:52,360 --> 00:04:55,320 Speaker 1: a manual for armchair detectives, which we have a lot 84 00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:57,640 Speaker 1: of in our audience, so this is perfect for them. 85 00:04:57,920 --> 00:04:59,920 Speaker 3: So tell me what is the goal of the book. 86 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:02,839 Speaker 1: What are the myths that we even have about the FBI. 87 00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:05,680 Speaker 2: Well, I have to say that the whole idea for 88 00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:08,680 Speaker 2: the book developed from the podcast. So I have a 89 00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:14,159 Speaker 2: podcast where I exclusively interview retired agents, and after the 90 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:17,760 Speaker 2: first year, I was noticing that there are many cases 91 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:21,839 Speaker 2: that we were reviewing and which we always said, like, 92 00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:24,800 Speaker 2: that's not how they show it on TV, or that's 93 00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:28,000 Speaker 2: not what the public things, and just really kind of 94 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:31,880 Speaker 2: looking at some of those cliches and misconceptions that people have, 95 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:35,600 Speaker 2: and I just started kind of taking notes on what 96 00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:40,599 Speaker 2: they were, and I did two podcast episodes about those 97 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:44,240 Speaker 2: cliches and misconceptions. And then one day someone said to me, 98 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:46,880 Speaker 2: you know, this is a book. Why don't you write 99 00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:49,000 Speaker 2: a book? And I thought, you know what, I'm going 100 00:05:49,080 --> 00:05:52,800 Speaker 2: to do that because I'm a big true crime podcast 101 00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:57,040 Speaker 2: listener and a lot of times I hear people asking questions, 102 00:05:57,120 --> 00:06:01,760 Speaker 2: are maybe making observations that I know are inaccurate, are 103 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:05,440 Speaker 2: they may not truly understand how investigations work, And so 104 00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:08,720 Speaker 2: the book has a good place fits perfectly in what 105 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:09,800 Speaker 2: I'm doing now. 106 00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 1: I have to tell you that's why I try to 107 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:15,560 Speaker 1: keep speculation on my part down to a minimum, because 108 00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:16,520 Speaker 1: I'm a journalist. 109 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:18,719 Speaker 3: I do research. I know what I know, I know 110 00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:19,560 Speaker 3: what I've done research in. 111 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:21,560 Speaker 1: But that's why I talk to people like you and 112 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:24,279 Speaker 1: Paul Holes and other experts out there who have worked 113 00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:28,040 Speaker 1: these cases from the inside. So let's talk about your 114 00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:29,080 Speaker 1: career just a tiny bit. 115 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:32,479 Speaker 3: In the FBI. You were primarily white collar. 116 00:06:32,400 --> 00:06:35,479 Speaker 2: That is correct. So I spent most of my career 117 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:38,039 Speaker 2: on an economic crime squad. 118 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:39,000 Speaker 3: Oh my gosh. 119 00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:42,279 Speaker 1: Yeah, it sounds exciting and boring at the same time. 120 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:44,560 Speaker 3: Oh, but it was exciting. 121 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:47,880 Speaker 2: It wasn't boring. It really is fascinating. It would be 122 00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:53,240 Speaker 2: things like Ponzi schemes, at vance fee frauds, telemarketing scams, 123 00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:57,919 Speaker 2: and embezzlement. When you talk about an elderly couple having 124 00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:02,800 Speaker 2: their life savings stolen. Now in their elderly age, they 125 00:07:02,839 --> 00:07:05,000 Speaker 2: have no money and no income and the life that 126 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:08,680 Speaker 2: they dreamed of and retirement has been taken away from them. 127 00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:13,080 Speaker 2: That's violence that really hits that elderly couple. And you 128 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:16,080 Speaker 2: know they're family members, and it's just fascinating to me, 129 00:07:16,200 --> 00:07:19,040 Speaker 2: the things that people say to themselves to make it 130 00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:21,880 Speaker 2: okay to steal other people's money. 131 00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:22,600 Speaker 3: It really is. 132 00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:23,920 Speaker 2: It's fascinating to me. 133 00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:27,520 Speaker 3: So you retired and you started bringing these people on. 134 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:30,160 Speaker 1: You started bringing these FBI agents and someone you brought 135 00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:34,000 Speaker 1: on had worked on the poly class case. 136 00:07:34,120 --> 00:07:38,160 Speaker 2: Right, that's correct when people ask me, what's your favorite 137 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:43,320 Speaker 2: episode that you've recorded. The poly Class Case review with 138 00:07:43,480 --> 00:07:48,440 Speaker 2: retired agent Eddie Fryer was the case where I realized 139 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:51,920 Speaker 2: that I was doing more than just a true crime podcast. 140 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:56,800 Speaker 2: This was a way of really showing the public who 141 00:07:56,840 --> 00:08:00,920 Speaker 2: the FBI is and what the FBI does, and really 142 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:05,320 Speaker 2: getting all of those misconceptions, just throwing them out the window. 143 00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:12,600 Speaker 2: Because Eddie Fryer really showed his emotions and how important 144 00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:15,440 Speaker 2: it was for him to work this case. And we 145 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:18,280 Speaker 2: talked for over three hours, and after we finished, I 146 00:08:18,440 --> 00:08:21,080 Speaker 2: just sat back in my seat and I said, Wow, 147 00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:25,040 Speaker 2: he shared everything. He poured it out there, and this 148 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:30,520 Speaker 2: is really different for listeners to be able to hear 149 00:08:30,560 --> 00:08:32,400 Speaker 2: it from the investigator's side. 150 00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:33,520 Speaker 3: What a terrible case. 151 00:08:33,559 --> 00:08:35,440 Speaker 1: And I think the majority of the audience is going 152 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:37,920 Speaker 1: to know at least some of the details of the 153 00:08:37,960 --> 00:08:40,480 Speaker 1: Polyclass case. And it's always upsetting to me. I'm a mom, 154 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:43,680 Speaker 1: and it's hard to recount the case. So let's just 155 00:08:43,920 --> 00:08:45,960 Speaker 1: kind of lay out because I'm not one hundred percent 156 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:49,440 Speaker 1: sure when the FBI comes in on the case. But 157 00:08:49,559 --> 00:08:52,320 Speaker 1: can you start with how does this whole story even start? 158 00:08:52,320 --> 00:08:54,520 Speaker 1: With Paullie and she's at a sleepover. Right in nineteen 159 00:08:54,559 --> 00:08:55,480 Speaker 1: ninety three. 160 00:08:55,360 --> 00:08:59,240 Speaker 2: She's at a sleepover at her own home. She's hosting 161 00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:02,319 Speaker 2: her two friends. And later in the evening, it's about 162 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:06,199 Speaker 2: ten thirty pm, she opens her bedroom door to go 163 00:09:06,280 --> 00:09:09,080 Speaker 2: out to get something, and there's a man in the 164 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:12,199 Speaker 2: hallway and he comes into their room. He has a knife. 165 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:14,960 Speaker 2: He tells all the girls not to scream or he'll 166 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:18,920 Speaker 2: slit their throat, and he ties them up and then 167 00:09:19,240 --> 00:09:22,720 Speaker 2: takes Polly. And so the girls go out and notify 168 00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:26,840 Speaker 2: Polly's mother, and then Polly's mother calls nine to one one. 169 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:31,240 Speaker 2: About maybe an hour or so later, the FBI learns 170 00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:37,360 Speaker 2: about the subduction and they call into the Panaloma, California 171 00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:39,520 Speaker 2: Police Department offering assistance. 172 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:42,400 Speaker 3: Is that normal that quickly, I guess so. 173 00:09:42,559 --> 00:09:44,600 Speaker 1: I mean, if there's witnesses and she was taken and 174 00:09:44,640 --> 00:09:46,839 Speaker 1: this was not a runaway, that just seems very fast 175 00:09:46,880 --> 00:09:48,520 Speaker 1: to me for the FBI to be involved. 176 00:09:48,760 --> 00:09:52,439 Speaker 2: Not in a child kidnapping, Okay, So for an adult, 177 00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:56,559 Speaker 2: there are different procedures that need to be followed before 178 00:09:56,679 --> 00:09:59,959 Speaker 2: the FBI can get involved in the case. And even 179 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:04,040 Speaker 2: when they do, it is at the invitation of the 180 00:10:04,160 --> 00:10:07,600 Speaker 2: local police department. And so if there are no reasons 181 00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:10,160 Speaker 2: to believe that there is any type of federal jurisdiction 182 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:15,000 Speaker 2: or federal violation, the FBI just can't become involved in 183 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:18,640 Speaker 2: a kidnapping, whether it's an adult or a child, it 184 00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:22,559 Speaker 2: has to be at the invitation of the local police department. 185 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:25,640 Speaker 2: But when it comes to a child, that can be 186 00:10:25,720 --> 00:10:28,800 Speaker 2: done by just a simple phone call. And in this 187 00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:33,920 Speaker 2: particular instance, the local police department said absolutely yes, because 188 00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:37,280 Speaker 2: when you have a smaller police department, why not have 189 00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:41,520 Speaker 2: more people helping you and providing assistance. And so they 190 00:10:41,559 --> 00:10:44,800 Speaker 2: told Eddie Fryer, who made that phone call, yes, we 191 00:10:44,880 --> 00:10:47,319 Speaker 2: would value your assistance in this matter. 192 00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:50,360 Speaker 1: Are the California State Police involved at this point? 193 00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:52,599 Speaker 3: Also? Are they triangulated into all of this? 194 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:57,280 Speaker 2: I know they become involved in the investigation, and it 195 00:10:57,400 --> 00:11:02,880 Speaker 2: becomes a sort of task of all of these local agencies, 196 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:07,840 Speaker 2: the state police, and the FBI all working together because 197 00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:11,800 Speaker 2: they understand the importance of solving this case as soon 198 00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:15,719 Speaker 2: as possible. And I think that's probably the first cliche. 199 00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:18,200 Speaker 2: It's actually the second cliche in my book, but it's 200 00:11:18,280 --> 00:11:20,080 Speaker 2: one of the first ones I want to talk about, 201 00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:25,000 Speaker 2: and that is the cliche that the FBI doesn't play 202 00:11:25,040 --> 00:11:28,080 Speaker 2: well with others. You see that so many times. Yeah, 203 00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:31,480 Speaker 2: books and TV shows and movies, and you hear it 204 00:11:31,559 --> 00:11:32,520 Speaker 2: even on the news. 205 00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:34,800 Speaker 3: They bigfoot in and this is. 206 00:11:34,760 --> 00:11:36,959 Speaker 1: Our case, and if there's anything federal about it, we're 207 00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:39,440 Speaker 1: taking over. Yes, I'm very aware of that cliche. That's 208 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:40,960 Speaker 1: not a cliche. That's true. 209 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:44,880 Speaker 2: It's not a cliche because these agents and the local 210 00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:49,400 Speaker 2: police departments have been working together for years. They know 211 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:53,520 Speaker 2: each other. They're going to in service training, maybe even 212 00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:57,800 Speaker 2: we use their firearms range depending on where the office is. 213 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:03,120 Speaker 2: We're always working. Members of their department are going to 214 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:07,679 Speaker 2: the FBI's national academy. There are relationships that have been 215 00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:13,800 Speaker 2: formed that are based on mutual respect. And to think 216 00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:16,680 Speaker 2: that you're going to have an FBI agent working in 217 00:12:16,720 --> 00:12:19,320 Speaker 2: an area that he doesn't know these people, that they 218 00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:23,280 Speaker 2: don't already know him or her, to think that those 219 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:28,000 Speaker 2: relationships have not already been cemented, is just ridiculous. The 220 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:31,480 Speaker 2: reason I picked this polyclass case is because it really 221 00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:32,760 Speaker 2: shows how it. 222 00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:34,240 Speaker 3: Works when it works well. 223 00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:38,280 Speaker 2: And the great thing about this case, and again the 224 00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:41,400 Speaker 2: reason I used it as an example, is the FBI 225 00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:45,920 Speaker 2: really was almost the primary investigative agency in this There 226 00:12:45,960 --> 00:12:48,360 Speaker 2: are all these other agencies working, but as far as 227 00:12:48,640 --> 00:12:52,640 Speaker 2: collecting the evidence and setting the evidence off and coordinating 228 00:12:52,720 --> 00:12:57,240 Speaker 2: the different interviews and the tip line, all of that 229 00:12:57,320 --> 00:12:59,800 Speaker 2: was done by the FBI. But at the very end, 230 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:04,559 Speaker 2: this case was prosecuted at the state level with absolutely 231 00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:08,839 Speaker 2: no problem from the FBI because Polyclass was found just 232 00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:12,080 Speaker 2: a few one hundred miles away from home, she had 233 00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:15,520 Speaker 2: not crossed any state lines, her body wasn't found on 234 00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:20,360 Speaker 2: federal property. There was just nothing there to provide a 235 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:25,640 Speaker 2: federal jurisdiction, and so it was prosecuted by the state 236 00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:28,880 Speaker 2: and nobody in the FBI had any issue with that, 237 00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:33,400 Speaker 2: even though so many agents and so many resources had 238 00:13:33,440 --> 00:13:36,079 Speaker 2: been used in investigating that case. 239 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:38,920 Speaker 3: Well, let's catch up with where we are right now. 240 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:43,040 Speaker 1: So it is October first, nineteen ninety three in Pedaluma, California. 241 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:46,160 Speaker 1: Poly Class is twelve, and she has two friends who 242 00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:48,520 Speaker 1: are spending the night at her house. A man breaks in, 243 00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:52,320 Speaker 1: takes a knife from the house, threatens the friends, ties 244 00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:55,960 Speaker 1: him up, takes she is gone. The mom reports it. 245 00:13:56,040 --> 00:13:59,320 Speaker 1: Petaluma police call the FBI and ask for help. What 246 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:01,040 Speaker 1: happened next. 247 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:04,160 Speaker 2: Eddie Fryer and a few other agents meet them at 248 00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:08,640 Speaker 2: the crime scene. Once he realizes that this is probably 249 00:14:08,720 --> 00:14:13,960 Speaker 2: a stranger abduction and not a parental custody fight, his 250 00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:18,360 Speaker 2: first question to the local police's can we use the 251 00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:23,080 Speaker 2: FBI's Evidence Response team. Can they come in and collect 252 00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:25,920 Speaker 2: the evidence? And of course this is back in nineteen 253 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:29,760 Speaker 2: ninety three when a lot of the smaller police departments 254 00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:33,240 Speaker 2: don't have, you know, a crime scene analyst to come in, 255 00:14:33,280 --> 00:14:36,840 Speaker 2: and so that's one of the first things that they say, Yes, 256 00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:41,479 Speaker 2: let us use that FBI resource. And so the FBI's 257 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:46,800 Speaker 2: Evidence Response Team does come in and collect fingerprints, They 258 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:50,360 Speaker 2: collect the ligatures that were used to tie the girls up. 259 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:54,640 Speaker 2: They you know, look for palm print. They collect all 260 00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:58,080 Speaker 2: of this evidence and then they immediately send it to 261 00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:02,640 Speaker 2: the FBI laboratory for analysis. Another thing that the FBI 262 00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:06,560 Speaker 2: has a very strong surveillance team, and so as they 263 00:15:06,640 --> 00:15:11,600 Speaker 2: gather suspects, then the surveillance team can be used to 264 00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:14,880 Speaker 2: follow these people and to gather as much information as 265 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:17,920 Speaker 2: they can about them. Agents come in and they help 266 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:22,920 Speaker 2: the local police with neighborhood investigations, knocking on every door 267 00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:27,280 Speaker 2: asking you know, what did you see anything suspicious, and 268 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:33,120 Speaker 2: so already the technical resources and the manpower resources of 269 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:35,840 Speaker 2: the FBI are being used in this case. 270 00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:38,960 Speaker 1: What did they gather up until that point? So they 271 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:42,520 Speaker 1: concluded stranger abduction. They eliminated anyone within the family or 272 00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:43,720 Speaker 1: anyone the family might. 273 00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:45,680 Speaker 3: Have known, but she is gone. 274 00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:48,720 Speaker 1: What do they do next after they're done knocking on 275 00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:51,440 Speaker 1: every door and all of this stuff has been sent 276 00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:52,120 Speaker 1: off to the lab. 277 00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:54,440 Speaker 2: What do you do then, Well, the thing that you 278 00:15:54,520 --> 00:15:59,280 Speaker 2: do is to request the assistance of the public. The investigators. Really, 279 00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:02,600 Speaker 2: at that point, they have a sketch. The two girls 280 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:06,160 Speaker 2: that were able to see the subject were able to 281 00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:10,320 Speaker 2: provide some type of identification, and so they have a 282 00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:16,000 Speaker 2: suspect sketch. But basically they don't have much else, and 283 00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:20,680 Speaker 2: so their responsibility now is to get the public to 284 00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:25,320 Speaker 2: provide information, to provide leads for the investigators to go 285 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:29,120 Speaker 2: out on, you know, as they gather the information, trying 286 00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:32,720 Speaker 2: to find out what happened, what somebody saw, and so 287 00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:36,000 Speaker 2: that's what they begin to do. They do hear about 288 00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:39,120 Speaker 2: a white car being in the area that neighbors hadn't 289 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:42,760 Speaker 2: seen before, but really there's just not a lot and 290 00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:45,440 Speaker 2: the leads come in. I think he told me that 291 00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:49,920 Speaker 2: there were over sixty thousand leads that came in, and 292 00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:54,120 Speaker 2: out of those leads, they were able to narrow it 293 00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:58,600 Speaker 2: down to twelve thousand. So sixty thousand tips, narrow down 294 00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:03,480 Speaker 2: to twelve thousand leads, and they checked out every single 295 00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:06,200 Speaker 2: one of those leads. Somebody called in they thought they 296 00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:09,399 Speaker 2: saw something. This occurred in California, even if the person 297 00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:12,440 Speaker 2: said they thought they saw Polly in New Jersey, a 298 00:17:12,600 --> 00:17:15,600 Speaker 2: lead was set and somebody, an agent in New Jersey 299 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:18,960 Speaker 2: ran that down. And that again is one of the 300 00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:23,720 Speaker 2: advantages of asking for FBI assistance. It's going to be very, 301 00:17:23,840 --> 00:17:27,400 Speaker 2: very difficult for a local police department to run down 302 00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:30,080 Speaker 2: leads in other states and other counties and other cities. 303 00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:32,840 Speaker 2: They just don't have the manpower the time to do that. 304 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:36,240 Speaker 2: And by bringing on the FBI and asking for FBI assistance, 305 00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:39,240 Speaker 2: that's something that we do on a regular basis, and 306 00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:41,719 Speaker 2: we can go ahead and make that happen. And so 307 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:45,879 Speaker 2: for the next sixty days that's what they do. They're 308 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:51,199 Speaker 2: just taking in leads. Everyone is getting very frustrated that 309 00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:54,400 Speaker 2: they're not finding more information. They did have a few 310 00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:58,000 Speaker 2: suspects that look good but didn't pan out, and so 311 00:17:58,040 --> 00:18:02,600 Speaker 2: they just continue. And this is another misconception are cliche 312 00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:05,520 Speaker 2: that I'd like to bring up, and that is a 313 00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:08,120 Speaker 2: lot of times you hear about a case and you're 314 00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:11,439 Speaker 2: thinking that one agent in this case, Eddie Friar, is 315 00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:15,159 Speaker 2: working this case alone. You know, That's how it's sometimes perceived, 316 00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:19,879 Speaker 2: even on true crime TV shows, And there are hundreds 317 00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:24,600 Speaker 2: of local, state, and federal agents and investigators out there 318 00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:29,760 Speaker 2: working on this. It's definitely a team effort to get 319 00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:34,640 Speaker 2: as many people looking for Polly and trying to address 320 00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:37,160 Speaker 2: some of these tips and leads that are coming in. 321 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:40,879 Speaker 1: What's interesting is if you look at this crime, you 322 00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:43,560 Speaker 1: have a stranger who's come in, who picks up the 323 00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:46,080 Speaker 1: weapon at the scene. He's not carrying the weapon that 324 00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:47,760 Speaker 1: we know of, but he picks up the knife at 325 00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:51,800 Speaker 1: the scene, threatens to people, takes someone. This seems very 326 00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:54,159 Speaker 1: well organized, but also not well thought out. At the 327 00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:57,639 Speaker 1: same time ninety three, this is about twenty years after 328 00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:01,080 Speaker 1: the FBI created the Behavioral Science Unit. Are they bringing 329 00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:03,120 Speaker 1: in FBI profilers at this point? 330 00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:07,520 Speaker 2: Yes? And the thing about this case. At the same 331 00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:13,560 Speaker 2: time this abduction investigation is going on, the San Francisco office, 332 00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:17,359 Speaker 2: which covers this particular area is in the middle of 333 00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:21,040 Speaker 2: the unibomber investigation. Oh go, and so yeah, so they 334 00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:26,399 Speaker 2: actually have profilers on staff who've been assigned temporary duty 335 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:31,240 Speaker 2: in San Francisco. They also have a Rapid Start computer 336 00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:35,320 Speaker 2: analyst program that's going on, because when you have all 337 00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:38,600 Speaker 2: these leads coming in, you know, it's difficult to just 338 00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:41,159 Speaker 2: write them up on paper and put them in a file. 339 00:19:41,359 --> 00:19:45,760 Speaker 2: And remember everybody didn't have desktop computers in nineteen ninety three, 340 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:49,240 Speaker 2: and so this is a computer system that helps to 341 00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:52,760 Speaker 2: gather this information and make it readily available with a 342 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:55,480 Speaker 2: few keystrokes. So if the name comes up, you can 343 00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:57,760 Speaker 2: find out, oh wait a minute, two other people brought 344 00:19:57,800 --> 00:20:00,119 Speaker 2: this name up. And so one of the good things 345 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:03,560 Speaker 2: that happen with this case is that they were able 346 00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:07,240 Speaker 2: to borrow some of those resources that have been brought 347 00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:10,600 Speaker 2: in for the unibomber case to use on the Polyclass 348 00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:12,000 Speaker 2: abduction investigation. 349 00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:13,919 Speaker 3: So it's a big mess. 350 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:17,600 Speaker 1: They've gotten so many leads, and despite the manpower of 351 00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:20,320 Speaker 1: the FBI, I'm sure they're just drowning in bad information 352 00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:23,040 Speaker 1: looking for a kernel of good information. What is the 353 00:20:23,080 --> 00:20:26,280 Speaker 1: next big thing that happens within the sixty day period. 354 00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:31,840 Speaker 2: Well, unfortunately, nothing is really happening in that sixty day period, 355 00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:35,000 Speaker 2: and everything is happening. They're getting these leads and the 356 00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:38,600 Speaker 2: course each one, they're thinking this could be it, and 357 00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:42,800 Speaker 2: then it isn't it. But on the fifty eighth day, 358 00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:48,240 Speaker 2: there is a woman who calls in to the police 359 00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:52,320 Speaker 2: department because she's looking around her property. She's in a 360 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:57,480 Speaker 2: rural area and she comes across a strange scene. Some 361 00:20:57,720 --> 00:21:03,840 Speaker 2: red tights, some underwear, a used condom, and some things 362 00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:06,600 Speaker 2: that look like rope, and she just thinks this is 363 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:09,920 Speaker 2: quite odd. And then she recalls having to call the 364 00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:14,680 Speaker 2: police sixty days fifty eight days before that because there 365 00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:17,880 Speaker 2: was a man on her property and she's wondering if 366 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:20,600 Speaker 2: this is connected and what this stuff is, and so 367 00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:24,480 Speaker 2: she calls the police. When the police arrive, they look 368 00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:28,119 Speaker 2: at the evidence, they're not sure what it is. Was 369 00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:31,679 Speaker 2: it just some kids out there having sex? You know? 370 00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:35,280 Speaker 2: What is this? They don't touch the scene except for 371 00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:38,840 Speaker 2: maybe a few items, and they take it back into 372 00:21:39,119 --> 00:21:42,680 Speaker 2: the local PD and that's where they make the connection. 373 00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:45,600 Speaker 2: They hear what she's saying about a man being on 374 00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:50,439 Speaker 2: her property. They realized it was the same day, the 375 00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:55,240 Speaker 2: same evening that Polly went missing, and so they call 376 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:59,159 Speaker 2: in one of the people that is on the task force, 377 00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:04,399 Speaker 2: and when he sees the white material, the white rope 378 00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:09,320 Speaker 2: like item, he knows that it is very similar, if 379 00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:12,760 Speaker 2: not exactly like the ones that he saw at the 380 00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:16,160 Speaker 2: crime scene, because he was one of the investigators there 381 00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:20,119 Speaker 2: that night, and so he calls retired agent Eddie Fryer 382 00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:24,160 Speaker 2: and says, get down here, I think we have something. 383 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:43,320 Speaker 2: The most important thing about this discovery is the fact 384 00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:46,280 Speaker 2: that this woman had called the police on this man 385 00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:49,960 Speaker 2: she saw trespassing on her property. And they come out 386 00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:54,520 Speaker 2: and they talk to him, They ask him what he's 387 00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:59,159 Speaker 2: doing there, They take down his information, they look at 388 00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:01,840 Speaker 2: his car, which is a white car, and they gather 389 00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:05,320 Speaker 2: all the information and then they let them go. As 390 00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:10,199 Speaker 2: this polyclass investigation is being developed, they don't put together 391 00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:13,920 Speaker 2: the fact that they had pulled this man over, had 392 00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:19,640 Speaker 2: detained him temporarily that same night, and that his reasoning 393 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:23,160 Speaker 2: for being there didn't make any sense. And they didn't 394 00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:27,760 Speaker 2: notice that the want flyer, that photo that the girls 395 00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:32,119 Speaker 2: had someone pulled together really did look like this guy. 396 00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:37,400 Speaker 2: And so fifty eight days go by before their report 397 00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:41,080 Speaker 2: is pulled and they're called in, and they realized that 398 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:45,760 Speaker 2: this guy probably chances are so strong that he was 399 00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:51,040 Speaker 2: the one who abducted Polyclass. You've got this report, and 400 00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:54,199 Speaker 2: right up the hill from where they found him and 401 00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:57,639 Speaker 2: detained him and questioned him, was where the property owner 402 00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:01,800 Speaker 2: had discovered these items that day. The agent gets on 403 00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:06,040 Speaker 2: a plane, flies them to the FBI laboratory and they 404 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:08,480 Speaker 2: make a match. The items that were found up on 405 00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:13,040 Speaker 2: the hill have the same DNA and they appear to 406 00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:18,440 Speaker 2: be similar to the items that were recovered from Polyclass's bedroom. 407 00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:23,080 Speaker 1: So this suspect in that day could have been caught 408 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:26,399 Speaker 1: or investigated a little bit more and wasn't. So he 409 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:29,720 Speaker 1: was in the wind for fifty eight days until this 410 00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:33,199 Speaker 1: came together. So tell me why I'm interested in just 411 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:35,200 Speaker 1: in general, why do you not name. 412 00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:37,359 Speaker 3: Somebody who's already been convicted? Do you always do that? 413 00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:41,240 Speaker 2: I don't always do that, But for me, we have 414 00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:47,680 Speaker 2: started to look at some of these killers, murderers, rapists 415 00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:53,480 Speaker 2: almost as celebrity monsters. And although I understand and telling 416 00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:55,800 Speaker 2: a story and telling a complete story, people want to 417 00:24:55,840 --> 00:25:00,439 Speaker 2: know why this person did what they did, and knowing 418 00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:04,960 Speaker 2: their name and knowing their background is part of gathering 419 00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:08,120 Speaker 2: that information, and so I don't have a problem with others, 420 00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:11,840 Speaker 2: but for me and telling the investigator's side, I don't 421 00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:17,040 Speaker 2: necessarily find it helpful to name them on my website. 422 00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:19,160 Speaker 2: I have his name, I had the one at Flyer. 423 00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:22,000 Speaker 2: I guess it's something just in me that I don't 424 00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:23,159 Speaker 2: like to say their names. 425 00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:25,840 Speaker 1: No, I respect that absolutely, and I think we talk 426 00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:29,320 Speaker 1: about this often where respecting the victims is the most 427 00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:30,920 Speaker 1: important thing and not. 428 00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:32,639 Speaker 3: Glamorizing the killer. 429 00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:35,720 Speaker 1: And I think there's a difference between sorting out why 430 00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:38,920 Speaker 1: someone did something, can it be prevented, what can we learn, 431 00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:44,280 Speaker 1: versus just glorifying someone. So we'll stick with killer. So 432 00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:47,320 Speaker 1: now finally he is arrested. The killer is arrested. 433 00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:48,040 Speaker 3: Is that right? 434 00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:51,000 Speaker 2: That is right. I do want to go back just 435 00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:53,840 Speaker 2: a little bit to talk about what was going on 436 00:25:54,400 --> 00:26:00,320 Speaker 2: with retired agent Eddie Fryer during this fifty eight day investigation, 437 00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:05,600 Speaker 2: because it comes back to another cliche about the FBI 438 00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:10,400 Speaker 2: or about investigators, and that is that they're unemotional. They 439 00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:14,080 Speaker 2: are like robots and they just go out and investigate 440 00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:16,800 Speaker 2: the case. This is the point, really where I said 441 00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:20,159 Speaker 2: to myself. This is more than just a true crime 442 00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:25,560 Speaker 2: interview because during the interview, at several times Eddie Fryer 443 00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:30,400 Speaker 2: gets so emotional that he could hardly speak. In investigating 444 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:34,000 Speaker 2: this case, during those fifty eight days, he took no 445 00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:37,679 Speaker 2: days off. He just worked and worked and worked, and 446 00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:41,960 Speaker 2: at one point he realized that he was really breaking 447 00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:45,960 Speaker 2: down emotionally. So I like to talk about this because 448 00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:50,840 Speaker 2: I want people to understand that, especially when they're criticizing 449 00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:54,520 Speaker 2: investigators and what are they doing and are they doing anything? 450 00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:59,120 Speaker 2: A lot of times they're sacrificing their own mental health, 451 00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:03,679 Speaker 2: their own physical health, they're family relationships, a lot of 452 00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:07,199 Speaker 2: things in trying to get these investigations down, and so 453 00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:10,919 Speaker 2: fact that people don't understand how much they care and 454 00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:13,120 Speaker 2: how much they're working with the family and don't want 455 00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:16,880 Speaker 2: to disappoint the family, that they are emotional, they are 456 00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:20,960 Speaker 2: invested in this case and it means so much to 457 00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:24,240 Speaker 2: them that they're able to do justice for the victim. 458 00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:27,240 Speaker 1: How much do you think that media pressure, in public 459 00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:33,040 Speaker 1: pressure influences specifically the FBI, must just be tremendously stressful 460 00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:35,159 Speaker 1: for agents on a huge case like this. 461 00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:39,000 Speaker 2: It is definitely stressful because we all know, it all 462 00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:43,440 Speaker 2: rolls downhill. And so if the public is demanding, why 463 00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:47,000 Speaker 2: isn't something happening, And of course something is happening. We 464 00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:49,440 Speaker 2: just can't tell you what's going on because it would 465 00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:52,960 Speaker 2: hurt the investigation, and for the integrity of the investigation, 466 00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:56,359 Speaker 2: they've got to hold some information back. But the public 467 00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:59,720 Speaker 2: is demanding, and then the mayor of that city is 468 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:02,520 Speaker 2: demanding what's going on, what's going on? And then the 469 00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:05,680 Speaker 2: police commissioner is demanding what's going on in the US 470 00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:10,320 Speaker 2: Attorney's office and FBI headquarters and the head of the office. 471 00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:13,440 Speaker 2: And then you're a supervisor, and at the very end, 472 00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:18,800 Speaker 2: all of that pressure is being applied to the case 473 00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:22,960 Speaker 2: agent and the investigators on the case. It is an 474 00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:29,359 Speaker 2: added stressor for what is already a stressful situation, especially 475 00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:34,280 Speaker 2: when you're trying to hopefully find a twelve year old 476 00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:37,760 Speaker 2: girl before she is killed, and then you have all 477 00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:41,000 Speaker 2: of this external pressure too. At some point, it does 478 00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:43,520 Speaker 2: take a toll, you know, at some point all of 479 00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:48,240 Speaker 2: that evil and violence and horror and trauma is all 480 00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:49,920 Speaker 2: in their head. And if there's not a way to 481 00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:53,160 Speaker 2: release that and to deal with it and talk about it, 482 00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:58,880 Speaker 2: then it can be very harmful to an investigator, are 483 00:28:59,040 --> 00:28:59,560 Speaker 2: an agent. 484 00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:04,080 Speaker 1: Paul Hols, who was a retired cold case investigator, talked 485 00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:08,040 Speaker 1: about the mental toll that these cases have all taken 486 00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:11,800 Speaker 1: on him, and it must be tremendous. It is traumatizing 487 00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:14,800 Speaker 1: for everyone. Of course for the family members. I'm going 488 00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:19,800 Speaker 1: to assume that Polyclassi's family was relieved that the suspect 489 00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:23,680 Speaker 1: was caught and there seemed to be some definitive DNA 490 00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:27,040 Speaker 1: evidence to link him, but they are still missing Polly. 491 00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:32,520 Speaker 2: Now that's the thing about these types of investigations. You 492 00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:37,959 Speaker 2: immediately feel elation. We got him, we found them, you know, 493 00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:43,160 Speaker 2: we got the guy. And then immediately that rollercoaster drops 494 00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:48,200 Speaker 2: to the very lowest point when you realize that she's dead. Yeah, 495 00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:53,760 Speaker 2: and she's not coming back, and that now, as an investigator, 496 00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:57,840 Speaker 2: that information has to be passed on to a family 497 00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:02,200 Speaker 2: who for fifty eight sixty days have been hoping beyond 498 00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:04,720 Speaker 2: hope that she's going to be found and brought home. 499 00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:08,000 Speaker 1: Do we think that when his car was in a 500 00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:10,040 Speaker 1: ditch that night in the home inner you know, saw 501 00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:13,880 Speaker 1: it and all of this was Polly dead at that point, 502 00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:14,400 Speaker 1: do they know? 503 00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:18,840 Speaker 2: I asked that of Eddie Fryer, and he said that 504 00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:23,080 Speaker 2: the subject told them that she was still alive, that 505 00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:25,360 Speaker 2: she was up on that hill, that he told her 506 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:28,520 Speaker 2: to be quiet, and that she was still alive. But 507 00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:32,600 Speaker 2: he doesn't believe him at all. Yeah, the thought is 508 00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:35,280 Speaker 2: that Polly would not have just sat up there on 509 00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:40,280 Speaker 2: the hill, seeing these police officers with their bubble lights rolling, 510 00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:43,200 Speaker 2: you know, through the night, and not have called out 511 00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:46,440 Speaker 2: and said anything, no matter what he had threatened her 512 00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:49,760 Speaker 2: to do, because safety is right down there with them. 513 00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:53,000 Speaker 2: The fact that her underwear were left behind and there 514 00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:57,080 Speaker 2: was a used condom left behind indicated that he had 515 00:30:57,160 --> 00:31:02,040 Speaker 2: already done the sexual assault and most likely had killed her. 516 00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:06,080 Speaker 1: So at what point do they locate Polly's body? Is 517 00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:08,160 Speaker 1: it the killer who leads them there. 518 00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:12,560 Speaker 2: Yes, it is. They have to really appeal to his 519 00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:15,920 Speaker 2: I hate to use the word humanity when we're talking 520 00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:19,640 Speaker 2: about a sexual satis, but to really give them an 521 00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:23,640 Speaker 2: understanding of we just need to know it's already been done. 522 00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:29,080 Speaker 2: You're already here. The family needs to know where is polyclass, 523 00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:32,880 Speaker 2: where is her body? And they are actually able to 524 00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:38,160 Speaker 2: convince him to take them to where he had buried her, so. 525 00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:40,640 Speaker 1: They find her body How do you think the FBI 526 00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:43,240 Speaker 1: fared here in the public eye. Do you think that 527 00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:48,200 Speaker 1: people recognize the immense contribution that the FBI had in 528 00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:51,680 Speaker 1: figuring out, number one, who the killer was and number 529 00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:54,680 Speaker 1: two getting him to disclose where her body was. 530 00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:58,480 Speaker 2: I don't know if they do, and I know from 531 00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:03,200 Speaker 2: talking to a Friar, the case agent from the FBI side, 532 00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:06,400 Speaker 2: he could care less whether or not the public knows. 533 00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:08,880 Speaker 2: I reached out to him when I found out that 534 00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:12,040 Speaker 2: he was involved in this case and asked him to 535 00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:15,160 Speaker 2: provide a case review, and he did so. But he 536 00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:18,800 Speaker 2: certainly gives credit to all of the different agencies that 537 00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:19,600 Speaker 2: were involved. 538 00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:21,520 Speaker 3: And again he was. 539 00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:26,640 Speaker 2: Able to testify in the state trial. The FBI people 540 00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:30,200 Speaker 2: from the laboratory testified in the state trial. All of 541 00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:35,160 Speaker 2: our investigators who were a part of interviews and different 542 00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:40,320 Speaker 2: surveillances and the arrest, all of that testified. But the 543 00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:44,080 Speaker 2: fact that this is known as a state investigation, I 544 00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:46,680 Speaker 2: think he's fine with it. You know, he knows the 545 00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:49,680 Speaker 2: work that we've done and the bottom line is being 546 00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:52,960 Speaker 2: able to bring justice to Polly and her family. 547 00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:57,640 Speaker 1: Why do you think it's important to bust these myths, 548 00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:00,800 Speaker 1: these false facts? Why does it matter if the FBI 549 00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:03,560 Speaker 1: doesn't care what the public thinks of them. 550 00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:05,880 Speaker 3: They're doing their job and they're working really hard. 551 00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:09,040 Speaker 1: But does it really matter that people know the truth 552 00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:12,080 Speaker 1: about how they work in the background without recognition. 553 00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:17,400 Speaker 2: Sometimes absolutely it matters, especially you know what's going on 554 00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:20,560 Speaker 2: in the news. Our country is very divided and the 555 00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:23,720 Speaker 2: FBI is right there in the middle, being pulled into 556 00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:28,440 Speaker 2: politics like it has never been done before. And I 557 00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:32,720 Speaker 2: think it's very important for people to see the hard 558 00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:35,160 Speaker 2: work that the FBI is doing, the type of things 559 00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:40,320 Speaker 2: the FBI does, the commitment, the sacrifices that the FBI 560 00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:44,600 Speaker 2: is involved in. And the reason is because an FBI 561 00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:47,719 Speaker 2: agent has no idea who he's going to have to call, 562 00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:51,040 Speaker 2: who he's going to have to talk to, and when 563 00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:56,280 Speaker 2: he or she reaches out to a particular witness, at 564 00:33:56,320 --> 00:34:01,040 Speaker 2: that witness has been reading a particular or TV show 565 00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:06,280 Speaker 2: or watching the news, that could affect the way they cooperate, Okay, 566 00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:11,000 Speaker 2: And so it's very important that that phone call that's made, 567 00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:13,560 Speaker 2: or that knock on the door that's made, that the 568 00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:16,759 Speaker 2: people behind that phone call, who answer the phone call 569 00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:20,160 Speaker 2: to the people behind that door feel a respect for 570 00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:23,840 Speaker 2: the FBI and have a positive perception and believe that 571 00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:27,200 Speaker 2: the FBI is fair and is there to get the facts. 572 00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:30,680 Speaker 1: So what is the number one do you think misconception 573 00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:34,280 Speaker 1: about the FBI that it just doesn't play well with others, 574 00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:37,520 Speaker 1: or it's a bureaucracy. The Feds the red tape and 575 00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:39,880 Speaker 1: they only care about the high profile cases. 576 00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:45,640 Speaker 2: I think that probably in today's atmosphere of people being 577 00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:51,839 Speaker 2: very tied into true crime, the biggest misconception is that 578 00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:55,160 Speaker 2: the FBI doesn't care about the smaller cases. And that's 579 00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:59,840 Speaker 2: why I brought this case up because the most important 580 00:34:59,880 --> 00:35:05,280 Speaker 2: thing to understand is most murdered and missing cases are 581 00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:10,000 Speaker 2: not part of the FBI jurisdiction, are not part of 582 00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:14,160 Speaker 2: the federal violations that in order to take part in 583 00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:17,759 Speaker 2: some of these cases, the FBI has to be invited. 584 00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:22,040 Speaker 2: And when you have a larger police department, they may 585 00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:25,680 Speaker 2: not need the FBI's help. They may have the manpower 586 00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:29,840 Speaker 2: and the resources and everything that they need to handle 587 00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:32,759 Speaker 2: the case. Then you may have a smaller department and 588 00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:36,080 Speaker 2: for some reason that chief of police wants to get 589 00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:39,960 Speaker 2: re elected, if it's an election type situation, or if 590 00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:43,279 Speaker 2: they don't want to give up any power, and they 591 00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:47,359 Speaker 2: don't reach out and ask for FBI assistants. And again, 592 00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:50,000 Speaker 2: when I talk about FBI assistance, I'm not talking about 593 00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:53,080 Speaker 2: the FBI coming in and taking over a case because 594 00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:57,960 Speaker 2: at the bottom line, again, most missing and murdered investigations 595 00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:01,440 Speaker 2: are going to be prosecuted by the state. We can't 596 00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:05,080 Speaker 2: make something a federal violation. If it's not, it's not 597 00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:08,520 Speaker 2: going to be prosecuted federally. But the FBI can offer 598 00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:13,720 Speaker 2: manpower resources. One of the biggest things in a case 599 00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:17,919 Speaker 2: like this is the publicity, the oneted flyers, which come 600 00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:22,000 Speaker 2: with reward money and things like that. But it's not 601 00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:24,759 Speaker 2: a choice of the FBI about whether or not they 602 00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:27,080 Speaker 2: get involved. I know there was a lot of negative 603 00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:31,440 Speaker 2: talk when it came to the Gabby Potito case. Her 604 00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:36,520 Speaker 2: body was found on federal property, that became an FBI case. 605 00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:39,359 Speaker 2: And so when people say, well the FBI did that one, well, 606 00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:42,560 Speaker 2: it was an FBI violation. It was an FBI jurisdiction 607 00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:46,400 Speaker 2: as opposed to somebody just found down the street in 608 00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:49,560 Speaker 2: a small town or even a big city somewhere there 609 00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:53,560 Speaker 2: is no federal violation. And so I think in talking 610 00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:57,040 Speaker 2: about this case, that was one of my main purposes, 611 00:36:57,080 --> 00:36:59,520 Speaker 2: even though it wasn't my case. I wasn't involved in 612 00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:02,040 Speaker 2: it in the FBI at the time, but I was 613 00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:05,600 Speaker 2: all the way over in Philadelphia working white collar cases. 614 00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:09,000 Speaker 2: But I wanted to talk about this one because it 615 00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:13,359 Speaker 2: really shows how the FBI works well with others, how 616 00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:18,920 Speaker 2: the FBI uses task force concept allowing local, state, and 617 00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:22,960 Speaker 2: federal agencies to work together and share information, how a 618 00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:27,479 Speaker 2: jurisdiction works, how something may not necessarily end up being 619 00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:31,000 Speaker 2: prosecuted federally but could be prosecuted by the state with 620 00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:35,680 Speaker 2: the FBI agents participating, and the fact that an agent 621 00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:38,520 Speaker 2: isn't working this case alone. They're having all of these people, 622 00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:44,759 Speaker 2: even from their own agency, participating and providing resources and manpower. 623 00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:48,680 Speaker 2: And the most important thing is just the personal sacrifices 624 00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:54,200 Speaker 2: that agents and investigators make when they work these high 625 00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:59,440 Speaker 2: profile cases and just cases where time is of the essence, 626 00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:03,000 Speaker 2: where there's a ticking time bomb of trying to rescue 627 00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:08,640 Speaker 2: a young child in a situation where they know the 628 00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:13,160 Speaker 2: longer it goes, more likely than not that child is 629 00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:14,880 Speaker 2: not going to be recovered alive. 630 00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:19,319 Speaker 1: And the polyclass case is such a tragic story. This 631 00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:22,760 Speaker 1: one young woman who had such a bright future ahead 632 00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:26,080 Speaker 1: of her. When she died, it just created this ripple effect, 633 00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:28,720 Speaker 1: and I think, as you said, affected so many people, 634 00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:31,799 Speaker 1: her family, the FBI, all the agents, everyone who is 635 00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:35,359 Speaker 1: working on this case. So the lessons learned from this, 636 00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:39,239 Speaker 1: I think are pretty evident. And I appreciated hearing this 637 00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:41,360 Speaker 1: point of view. We don't often hear a lot of 638 00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:44,560 Speaker 1: true crime cases just about the law enforcement's point of view, 639 00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:45,360 Speaker 1: So thank you. 640 00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:46,360 Speaker 3: I really appreciate it. 641 00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:51,000 Speaker 2: Well, thank you, And you know my tagline is that 642 00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:53,799 Speaker 2: I'm on a mission to show the public who the 643 00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:56,600 Speaker 2: FBI is and what the FBI does, So I really 644 00:38:56,680 --> 00:39:01,640 Speaker 2: appreciate you giving me this opportunity to get the message out. 645 00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:05,799 Speaker 2: I actually have twenty cliches and misconceptions that I go 646 00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:08,560 Speaker 2: through in the book, So there's a lot more that 647 00:39:08,719 --> 00:39:13,959 Speaker 2: true crime fans can learn about what they might think 648 00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:24,120 Speaker 2: that's wrong about the FBI. On the next. 649 00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:29,560 Speaker 1: Episode of Wicked Words, Harold Scheckter on Hell's Princess Bell Gunnis. 650 00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:33,600 Speaker 4: The one thing about Bell that's very interesting and also 651 00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:37,359 Speaker 4: ultimately little unnerving, is that she appeared to have a 652 00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:43,000 Speaker 4: genuinely powerful maternal instinct, and she always wanted to have kids. 653 00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:46,520 Speaker 4: She somehow persuaded this friend of hers to turn this 654 00:39:46,680 --> 00:39:49,600 Speaker 4: child over to her, and Belle raised her until she 655 00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:56,920 Speaker 4: was sixteen, at which point she decided to kill her. 656 00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:07,120 Speaker 1: My new book, All That Is Wicked is available now, 657 00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:10,080 Speaker 1: including the audiobook. All that Is Wicked is based on 658 00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:12,799 Speaker 1: our first season of tenfold War Wicked. You might think 659 00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:15,600 Speaker 1: you know the whole story of killer Edward Ruloff's crimes, 660 00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:18,640 Speaker 1: but there's so much more. My book American Sherlock is 661 00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:22,239 Speaker 1: also available. This has been an exactly right tenfold war 662 00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:26,360 Speaker 1: Media production. The producer is Alexis Mrosi. Our mixer is 663 00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:30,520 Speaker 1: Ryo Baum. Our sound designer is Andrew Epen. Curtis Heath is. 664 00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:34,200 Speaker 1: Our composer Nick Toga did the artwork. Il Sabrink designed 665 00:40:34,239 --> 00:40:38,960 Speaker 1: the website. The executive producers are Georgia Hartstark, Karen Kilgarriff 666 00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:43,120 Speaker 1: and Danielle Kramer. Follow Wicked words on Instagram and Facebook 667 00:40:43,239 --> 00:40:46,319 Speaker 1: at tenfold more Wicked and on Twitter at tenfold More 668 00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:49,160 Speaker 1: and If you know of a historical crime that could 669 00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:52,600 Speaker 1: use some attention, especially if it happened in your family, 670 00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:57,400 Speaker 1: email us at info at tenfoldwoar Wicked dot com. We'll 671 00:40:57,400 --> 00:41:00,360 Speaker 1: also take your suggestions for a true crime Authors for 672 00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:01,160 Speaker 1: Wicked Words 673 00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:07,760 Speaker 4: MHM