1 00:00:00,640 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics, 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:07,120 Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of 3 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:11,480 Speaker 1: today's best minds, and Steve Bennon says, billionaire CEOs or 4 00:00:11,520 --> 00:00:14,160 Speaker 1: supplicants to Trump, we have such a great show for 5 00:00:14,200 --> 00:00:19,320 Speaker 1: you today. Democracy Dockets. Markellized stops by to talk about 6 00:00:19,360 --> 00:00:22,880 Speaker 1: the legal battles of the Trump two point zero era. 7 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:28,280 Speaker 1: Then we'll talk to the Brennan Centers Michael Waldman about what. 8 00:00:28,360 --> 00:00:30,480 Speaker 2: This whole thing is going to look like. But first 9 00:00:30,560 --> 00:00:31,360 Speaker 2: the news. 10 00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:35,640 Speaker 3: Somali the big, big controversy on the internet. Of course 11 00:00:35,640 --> 00:00:37,840 Speaker 3: over the weekend, there was lots of them, but one 12 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:40,879 Speaker 3: of them really was that TikTok was banned for a 13 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:44,080 Speaker 3: few whole hours. What are you seeing happening here? 14 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:46,720 Speaker 1: You and I are on both different sides of the 15 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:47,680 Speaker 1: TikTok fiasco. 16 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:50,440 Speaker 2: You are a TikToker, I am not. 17 00:00:51,040 --> 00:00:53,440 Speaker 3: I'm a TikToker who believes it should be sold to 18 00:00:53,479 --> 00:00:54,280 Speaker 3: a US A company. 19 00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:55,640 Speaker 2: The company. 20 00:00:55,720 --> 00:00:59,800 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, so but whatever, we can both agree that 21 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:03,080 Speaker 1: how this has been handled by Biden world is words. 22 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:05,160 Speaker 3: I mean, who disagrees with that? 23 00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:07,720 Speaker 2: At this point? Nobody disagrees with it. I think even 24 00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:09,440 Speaker 2: Biden would be like, whoops. 25 00:01:09,520 --> 00:01:13,480 Speaker 1: So what happened here was both branch is the House 26 00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:15,960 Speaker 1: and the Senate said we need to ban TikTok. 27 00:01:16,160 --> 00:01:17,960 Speaker 2: It's owned by the Chinese government. 28 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:22,720 Speaker 1: There's no aggmirate transparency, there's no transparency at all, and 29 00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:27,040 Speaker 1: so we pretty much everyone was like, this has to stop. 30 00:01:27,319 --> 00:01:29,880 Speaker 1: One of the very few times that our government chose 31 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:34,880 Speaker 1: to legislate, and it was enacted today, the ban, and 32 00:01:35,360 --> 00:01:38,560 Speaker 1: soon after, like Lucy with. 33 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:41,320 Speaker 2: The fucking football, Donald Trump. 34 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:45,679 Speaker 1: Was teed up to undo the ban via executive order. 35 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:48,040 Speaker 2: And there was enough latitude with. 36 00:01:48,080 --> 00:01:50,640 Speaker 1: The way that the law's written that it's not actually 37 00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:53,640 Speaker 1: technically illegal. He's not using his executive order to break 38 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:57,400 Speaker 1: a law because it's not written quite so clearly. 39 00:01:57,600 --> 00:02:01,840 Speaker 2: But so now TikTok is is bad and Trump. 40 00:02:01,560 --> 00:02:04,560 Speaker 1: Is it looks like a hero to anyone under the 41 00:02:04,600 --> 00:02:09,760 Speaker 1: age of thirty. And this is why Democrats, while having 42 00:02:09,880 --> 00:02:13,240 Speaker 1: very good ideas, still continue to lose elections. 43 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:16,200 Speaker 2: Congratulations, guys, that was that was not of it. 44 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:19,480 Speaker 3: We should say, so TikTok is back for ninety days 45 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:22,600 Speaker 3: after he does this order. But they would still suppose 46 00:02:22,639 --> 00:02:24,760 Speaker 3: they need to sell the at least fifty percent of 47 00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:27,800 Speaker 3: the company to you a US company to have a 48 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:28,520 Speaker 3: holding in it. 49 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:33,040 Speaker 1: Yes, and Donald Trump has some of the the Byteedance, 50 00:02:33,120 --> 00:02:36,240 Speaker 1: which is the company that owns TikTok. People up on 51 00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:39,680 Speaker 1: the dais with him during the inauguration, so you can 52 00:02:39,720 --> 00:02:41,080 Speaker 1: see where Donald. 53 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:41,480 Speaker 2: Trump comes down. 54 00:02:41,639 --> 00:02:45,720 Speaker 3: Great stuff. So in other tech, nice work if you 55 00:02:45,720 --> 00:02:49,640 Speaker 3: can get Trump tech news. He launched a scam coin, 56 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:51,760 Speaker 3: a meme coin whatever we want to call it, and 57 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:53,760 Speaker 3: is now twenty five billion dollars richer. 58 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:55,160 Speaker 2: Yes, trump coin. 59 00:02:55,800 --> 00:03:00,519 Speaker 1: And there was a great headline in the FT which 60 00:03:00,840 --> 00:03:04,160 Speaker 1: proclaimed and I think this is pretty great. The president 61 00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:07,959 Speaker 1: elect of the United States is promoting a shit coin. 62 00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:13,200 Speaker 1: So that's from FT. That's something. Let me tell you 63 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:15,840 Speaker 1: a shit coin. Yes, And from that shitcoin he has 64 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:19,760 Speaker 1: made twenty five billion dollars and also lost the respect 65 00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:23,080 Speaker 1: of a lot of crypto people for whom crypto is 66 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:29,040 Speaker 1: actually a real thing, including the guy who owns Barstool Sports, 67 00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:33,919 Speaker 1: who is Dave Fortnoy yet not a feminist icon by 68 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:39,600 Speaker 1: any stretch of the imagination. Very mad about Trump's shit Now? 69 00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:43,040 Speaker 1: Is he mad because he himself can't launch a shit coin? 70 00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:43,600 Speaker 2: Who knows? 71 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:46,240 Speaker 1: I'm going to read you what I just I have 72 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:48,920 Speaker 1: a dumb two part question This is from Dave port 73 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:52,760 Speaker 1: Noi Feminist Icon. What's the difference between the Hawk two coin, 74 00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:56,880 Speaker 1: which was Tua whatever, the Hawk Tua coin and the 75 00:03:56,920 --> 00:03:59,600 Speaker 1: Trump coin besides nothing? And then part two? 76 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:00,760 Speaker 2: Can I string up my. 77 00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:03,640 Speaker 1: Own coin now and tell people it's a Ponzi scheme 78 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:05,839 Speaker 1: from the jump and I'm going to pull the rug 79 00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:08,680 Speaker 1: at some point anyway, The point is welcome to the 80 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:10,480 Speaker 1: resistant feminist icon. 81 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:11,440 Speaker 2: Dave Portnoy. 82 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:13,760 Speaker 3: Yes, And for people who are in fluent, the Hawk 83 00:04:13,880 --> 00:04:17,960 Speaker 3: to a Girl who became meme famous that pull did 84 00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:20,279 Speaker 3: a meme coin has now been in hiding ever since 85 00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:22,520 Speaker 3: she did it because she got such a huge backlash. 86 00:04:22,760 --> 00:04:25,320 Speaker 2: Right. She also she was a Ponzi scheme. 87 00:04:25,440 --> 00:04:29,080 Speaker 1: So congratulations Donald Trump, You and the Hawk to a 88 00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:32,520 Speaker 1: Girl have have more in common than not. 89 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:36,920 Speaker 3: I could see it. So the other big scam news though, 90 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:40,080 Speaker 3: is that Trump's inauguration has been moved in doors through rotunda, 91 00:04:40,120 --> 00:04:43,080 Speaker 3: where now they will be able to keep two hundred 92 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:44,799 Speaker 3: million dollars of contributions. 93 00:04:45,160 --> 00:04:47,440 Speaker 1: My hottest take is they're going to keep a lot 94 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:50,880 Speaker 1: of the money anyway. Also, remember they wanted him to 95 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:56,240 Speaker 1: be indoors anyway, so he Trump has moved the inauguration inside. 96 00:04:56,320 --> 00:04:58,320 Speaker 1: It means that a lot of his people who bought 97 00:04:58,320 --> 00:05:01,039 Speaker 1: tickets now have to go go to their members of 98 00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:05,120 Speaker 1: Congress to get them refunded. They're not offering refunds. Technically 99 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:08,360 Speaker 1: it will be less expensive. Also, it is very cold, 100 00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:12,000 Speaker 1: so that's one of the reasons why they're moving in inside. 101 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:13,960 Speaker 2: And also remember Trump. 102 00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:18,080 Speaker 1: Has had a lot of violence directed towards him. I 103 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 1: think him moving in inside is largely a better idea. Now, 104 00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:24,000 Speaker 1: you know what's not a good idea, all the stuff 105 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:26,840 Speaker 1: that Trump wants to do once he's in office. 106 00:05:26,839 --> 00:05:27,880 Speaker 3: I agree. 107 00:05:28,160 --> 00:05:30,520 Speaker 1: Today we had the Wall Street Journal out with that 108 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:33,560 Speaker 1: he's going to declare a national emergency at the United 109 00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:37,560 Speaker 1: States Mexico border. This we'll see this tomorrow and Tuesday. Look, 110 00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:41,839 Speaker 1: all weekend we had different bits of news. Remember we 111 00:05:41,960 --> 00:05:45,599 Speaker 1: had Tom Holman, who's the new Border securiti Zar, who 112 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:49,680 Speaker 1: had been on television saying they were going to enact 113 00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:52,400 Speaker 1: parts of the Project twenty twenty five agenda. You'll remember 114 00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:56,279 Speaker 1: the Project twenty twenty five agenda being all the stuff 115 00:05:56,279 --> 00:05:58,920 Speaker 1: that was so unpopular that Donald Trump pretended he wasn't 116 00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:00,920 Speaker 1: going to do it. Well, now he's going to do it. 117 00:06:01,040 --> 00:06:03,880 Speaker 1: So part of it is these they're going to use 118 00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:09,359 Speaker 1: these emergency these emergency declarations as a way to skirt 119 00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:12,520 Speaker 1: a lot of law to give himself a legal framework. 120 00:06:12,560 --> 00:06:16,720 Speaker 1: You'll remember that last time, in twenty seventeen, twenty sixteen, 121 00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:21,479 Speaker 1: twenty seventeen, Trump enacted the Muslim ban, and that was 122 00:06:21,560 --> 00:06:25,159 Speaker 1: not able to stay, not because it was unconstitutional, though 123 00:06:25,400 --> 00:06:28,160 Speaker 1: certainly there's an argument for that, but because the Supreme 124 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:30,480 Speaker 1: the United States Supreme Court fild Trump didn't do it 125 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:33,280 Speaker 1: the right way and didn't dot the i's. 126 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:34,599 Speaker 2: And cross the t's. 127 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:37,279 Speaker 1: So this time Trump is vowed to use the military 128 00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:40,279 Speaker 1: to assist with deportations, and to do that he has 129 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:44,599 Speaker 1: to use these emergency and wartime powers acts. There are three. 130 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:48,479 Speaker 1: The Insurrection Act and that is the one that we've 131 00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:51,159 Speaker 1: talked a lot about. That's the one that would be 132 00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:53,960 Speaker 1: where he would be able to go after protesters or 133 00:06:54,120 --> 00:07:00,359 Speaker 1: send the army after Americans. There's the National Enemies Act, 134 00:07:01,080 --> 00:07:03,479 Speaker 1: and then there's the Alien Enemies Act, to which you 135 00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:06,719 Speaker 1: and you may remember on this podcast, we've done a lot. 136 00:07:06,560 --> 00:07:07,560 Speaker 2: Of talking about that act. 137 00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:10,720 Speaker 1: That's that act where you can put you can say 138 00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:15,480 Speaker 1: that members of countries you're at war with, are enemy 139 00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:18,240 Speaker 1: combatants and then put them in camps. 140 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:19,560 Speaker 2: I think that is going. 141 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:22,320 Speaker 1: To be the hardest one because it has only been 142 00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:25,760 Speaker 1: used three times during three different wars. But you know, 143 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:27,560 Speaker 1: this is what we're going to get to see is 144 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:31,000 Speaker 1: a sort of Trump doing crazy stuff with the law 145 00:07:31,240 --> 00:07:34,080 Speaker 1: in order to try to get to do things that 146 00:07:34,160 --> 00:07:38,480 Speaker 1: are extra judicial, that are things that are not within 147 00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:40,960 Speaker 1: the normal bounds of the law. And I think we're 148 00:07:40,960 --> 00:07:42,920 Speaker 1: going to see more and more about that. And I 149 00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:45,440 Speaker 1: want to just say right now, because we're just going 150 00:07:45,440 --> 00:07:48,080 Speaker 1: into this Trump and I'm saying this for myself as 151 00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:48,560 Speaker 1: much as. 152 00:07:48,480 --> 00:07:51,240 Speaker 2: For anyone else. He wants shock and awe. 153 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:54,560 Speaker 1: He wants people to be upset, like the Tom Holman 154 00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:57,640 Speaker 1: stuff in Chicago that he was planning a raid. Part 155 00:07:57,680 --> 00:08:00,440 Speaker 1: of this is to get people scared, right. Part of 156 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:02,760 Speaker 1: him saying he's going to go after his enemies is 157 00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:06,160 Speaker 1: to make people, you know, obey in advance. I mean, 158 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:09,200 Speaker 1: just like what's happening at Meta. He wants that to 159 00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:14,360 Speaker 1: happen with everyone. So it's worth just remembering that when 160 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:17,880 Speaker 1: you start seeing these these headlines come out, some of 161 00:08:17,920 --> 00:08:21,280 Speaker 1: this is certainly real, and some of this is meant 162 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:25,360 Speaker 1: to get people upset, and you'll remember, the cruelty is 163 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:28,080 Speaker 1: the point, but it's also just the sort of the 164 00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:32,439 Speaker 1: fear to make people scared. And so as much as 165 00:08:32,480 --> 00:08:34,720 Speaker 1: there's a lot of scary stuff that's going to happen, 166 00:08:34,960 --> 00:08:37,920 Speaker 1: there's also we all just you know, we have gotten 167 00:08:37,920 --> 00:08:40,600 Speaker 1: through one Trump admin and we will get through another. 168 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:50,360 Speaker 1: Mark Elias is the founder of Democracy Dockett. 169 00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:52,800 Speaker 2: Welcome back to Fast Politics. 170 00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:54,040 Speaker 4: Mark, thanks for having me. 171 00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:57,200 Speaker 1: Okay, so first we're going to talk about how you 172 00:08:57,640 --> 00:09:04,400 Speaker 1: superheroed in to the Justice Riggs situation. North Carolina Democrat 173 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:07,920 Speaker 1: won re election in the Supreme Court and the Republican 174 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:09,079 Speaker 1: was like, no. 175 00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:12,240 Speaker 4: Yeah, this should be a much bigger story than it is. 176 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:15,360 Speaker 4: In twenty twenty, we all understood that what Donald Trump 177 00:09:15,400 --> 00:09:17,080 Speaker 4: was trying to do after the election was still an 178 00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:20,600 Speaker 4: election by trying to throw out tens of thousands of 179 00:09:20,679 --> 00:09:23,320 Speaker 4: legal votes in a number of different states, and we 180 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:25,840 Speaker 4: all stood up and I was happy to represent President 181 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:28,680 Speaker 4: Biden and defeat that effort in court. But that's what's 182 00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:30,760 Speaker 4: happening in North Carolina. That's what we've seen in the 183 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:35,440 Speaker 4: last since election day. Alison Riggs, incumbent Democratic state Supreme 184 00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:38,960 Speaker 4: Court justice won a narrow victory that was confirmed in 185 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:41,360 Speaker 4: a recount. It was confirmed in a second recount, and 186 00:09:41,480 --> 00:09:44,960 Speaker 4: the Republican National Committee, along with the state party and 187 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:48,120 Speaker 4: the candidate there have been trying to pitch this theory 188 00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:50,600 Speaker 4: that there were sixty thousand voters who, by the way, 189 00:09:50,760 --> 00:09:53,720 Speaker 4: were legal, like, there's no question these were not fraudent voters, 190 00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:56,840 Speaker 4: but they're saying that those voters votes should be thrown 191 00:09:56,880 --> 00:10:01,000 Speaker 4: out because essentially they think the state law was not 192 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:05,720 Speaker 4: requiring certain information on their voter registration forms, which is, 193 00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:08,000 Speaker 4: by the way, bunk in and of itself. But even 194 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:10,440 Speaker 4: if it wasn't bunk like, this is the information the 195 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:15,640 Speaker 4: state saw it from these votersister. I'm of two minds of. 196 00:10:15,559 --> 00:10:16,079 Speaker 5: This, Molly. 197 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:19,680 Speaker 4: One is that this is about stealing a state Supreme 198 00:10:19,679 --> 00:10:21,800 Speaker 4: Court seat, and I think that probably for the candidate, 199 00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:24,079 Speaker 4: that's it. But I think that the other thing that's 200 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:26,920 Speaker 4: going on here is that why you see the RNC involved, 201 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:29,280 Speaker 4: Because you know it's a five to two court already, right, 202 00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:31,640 Speaker 4: Republic's already controlled this court seat, So why is the 203 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:34,920 Speaker 4: RNC involved. I think the rnc's involved because they view 204 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:37,719 Speaker 4: this as if they win this, if they're able to 205 00:10:37,760 --> 00:10:39,720 Speaker 4: pull this off, then they're able to say that Donald 206 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:42,680 Speaker 4: Trump in twenty twenty was right, like in a weird way. 207 00:10:42,840 --> 00:10:47,040 Speaker 4: This is them trying to vindicate a larger question of 208 00:10:47,320 --> 00:10:50,319 Speaker 4: you know, throwing out sixty thousand votes after an election's 209 00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:50,880 Speaker 4: taking place. 210 00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:53,199 Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think that's exactly right. 211 00:10:53,320 --> 00:10:57,800 Speaker 1: And I think that what is interesting here is that 212 00:10:58,120 --> 00:11:01,160 Speaker 1: this is the kind of stuff that is really bad, 213 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:05,080 Speaker 1: and that is really the legacy of Trump's twenty twenty 214 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:07,199 Speaker 1: crusade is that if you don't like the results of 215 00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:09,880 Speaker 1: an election, you can just say no. And it is 216 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:12,559 Speaker 1: the sort of ethos of Trumpism, too, right. I mean, 217 00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:14,880 Speaker 1: like I was just talking with a guest about Restvott. 218 00:11:15,040 --> 00:11:17,840 Speaker 1: Restvaught's whole thing was that he went into omb and 219 00:11:17,960 --> 00:11:19,480 Speaker 1: was like, no, I don't want to give you money for. 220 00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:22,520 Speaker 4: That now, right, Yeah. So I would say it's not 221 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:25,439 Speaker 4: just the East ethos. I think it's the animated principle 222 00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:27,960 Speaker 4: of trump Ism. People want to know, like what is mechanism, 223 00:11:27,960 --> 00:11:30,080 Speaker 4: and they like contort themselves to try to find a 224 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:33,679 Speaker 4: some coherent theory of government with Donald Trump, which there isn't. 225 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:38,080 Speaker 4: I think the only consistent thing is abuse of the law. 226 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:40,160 Speaker 4: I mean think about it, like, you know, what is 227 00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:44,199 Speaker 4: what was Donald Trump known for before he became a politician. Well, 228 00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:47,000 Speaker 4: you know, he wanted his roy cone. He wanted to 229 00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:50,240 Speaker 4: ignore building code, you know, building codes or whatever or 230 00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:52,480 Speaker 4: whatever the I mean his father did with the you know, 231 00:11:52,559 --> 00:11:55,480 Speaker 4: the civil rights violation. Like he has always been about 232 00:11:55,679 --> 00:11:57,280 Speaker 4: abusing the legal system. 233 00:11:57,480 --> 00:11:58,080 Speaker 5: He sues. 234 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:00,280 Speaker 4: He you know, think about all the frivol's laws since 235 00:12:00,280 --> 00:12:03,120 Speaker 4: he's brought against people. And so you know what you 236 00:12:03,160 --> 00:12:06,360 Speaker 4: say about omb it's like the animating principle is we 237 00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:07,400 Speaker 4: don't have to follow. 238 00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:09,400 Speaker 2: The law, right, No, No, agreed. 239 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:12,520 Speaker 1: And I think what has been interesting is that trump 240 00:12:12,640 --> 00:12:15,360 Speaker 1: Ism does not scale right. Trump is a separate brand 241 00:12:15,400 --> 00:12:19,000 Speaker 1: from the Republican Party. Republicans are hoping now. I think 242 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:21,600 Speaker 1: what I think is was interesting in Trump one point 243 00:12:21,679 --> 00:12:24,960 Speaker 1: zero was that in Trump one point zero, Republicans were 244 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:27,720 Speaker 1: sort of went along to get along, and they thought 245 00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:30,560 Speaker 1: that he would help their brand. Now I think they've 246 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:33,440 Speaker 1: realized that it doesn't transfer. So they're just trying to 247 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:36,520 Speaker 1: sort of get as much of his sort of magic 248 00:12:36,679 --> 00:12:40,720 Speaker 1: fairy dust or whatever it is, probably fame on them 249 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:42,440 Speaker 1: in the hopes that they can take over. 250 00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:43,360 Speaker 5: Yeah. 251 00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:46,440 Speaker 4: I think that Actually, you're right that in the first 252 00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:49,200 Speaker 4: term they thought he might help their brand. I think 253 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:52,160 Speaker 4: in the second term they are resigned to the fact 254 00:12:52,160 --> 00:12:54,840 Speaker 4: that he has replaced their brand. You know, in many usbecs, 255 00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:57,840 Speaker 4: you know, Mike Johnson is not really the leader of 256 00:12:57,840 --> 00:13:00,280 Speaker 4: the House Republicans, Donald Trump is, you know. I mean, 257 00:13:00,320 --> 00:13:04,160 Speaker 4: like there really aren't any Republican leaders who independent of 258 00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:07,520 Speaker 4: Donald Trump exert any authority or power. And so I 259 00:13:07,559 --> 00:13:10,120 Speaker 4: think what they are they're like, Okay, fine, we have 260 00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:12,960 Speaker 4: no brand. There is no Republican brand, and now they're 261 00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:16,439 Speaker 4: going to see whether if they just throw in to 262 00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:19,320 Speaker 4: Trump's brand, like you said, does any of it rub off, 263 00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:22,320 Speaker 4: and then they be they gain power derivatively of that. 264 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:23,160 Speaker 2: Yeah. 265 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:25,760 Speaker 1: And we saw this with the election to a certain extent, 266 00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:28,160 Speaker 1: I mean, because we saw voters who voted for Trump 267 00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:29,400 Speaker 1: and left the bottom of the ticket. 268 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:31,959 Speaker 4: Bye, that's exactly right, you know, and we've seen Look, 269 00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:34,640 Speaker 4: we've seen it, not just in that we've seen it. 270 00:13:34,679 --> 00:13:37,120 Speaker 4: You know, Trump had reverse coattails like kind of what 271 00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:40,080 Speaker 4: you're saying, Like Democrats did better in the Senate than 272 00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:41,920 Speaker 4: they did at the presidency, and they did better in 273 00:13:41,960 --> 00:13:45,199 Speaker 4: the House even still, and that is because there is no, 274 00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:49,160 Speaker 4: there's no there's no Republicanism. There is just Donald Trump 275 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:51,880 Speaker 4: and then sort of his his merry band of siccophants. 276 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:54,920 Speaker 4: And so I think that Trump two point zero is 277 00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:57,560 Speaker 4: about how do you fold into that? I mean, look 278 00:13:57,559 --> 00:13:59,959 Speaker 4: at the business community, look at the look at look 279 00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:02,360 Speaker 4: what it's doing. I mean, it's it's folding into that. 280 00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:04,679 Speaker 2: It is unbelievable. 281 00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:07,440 Speaker 1: And you and I actually talk offline about this all 282 00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:08,040 Speaker 1: the time. 283 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:11,080 Speaker 4: I wasn't going to say that, but we do. 284 00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:12,520 Speaker 2: We do. We're friends. 285 00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:14,719 Speaker 4: We're friends, and we've thought and we worry about it. Yes, 286 00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:17,360 Speaker 4: we jgularly for people who don't know. Off air, we 287 00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:19,720 Speaker 4: worry about this and talk about it as well. 288 00:14:19,800 --> 00:14:24,160 Speaker 1: Yes, because it's unbelievably scary. I mean, you know, since 289 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:29,240 Speaker 1: Donald Trump won the election, basically every billionaire, every single 290 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:32,640 Speaker 1: company that is going to have any kind of legislation 291 00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:34,640 Speaker 1: in front of him, has been like, you know, how 292 00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:35,800 Speaker 1: much can we donate to you? 293 00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:40,480 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's remarkable. You know, Normally raising money for things 294 00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:43,040 Speaker 4: like the inauguration is really hard because like a lot 295 00:14:43,040 --> 00:14:45,560 Speaker 4: of companies don't want to get involved in what they 296 00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:48,360 Speaker 4: historically would perceive to be you know, sort of giving 297 00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:51,760 Speaker 4: money for a party for the incoming president. Now, not 298 00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:56,320 Speaker 4: only are corporate CEOs and corporations eager to do so 299 00:14:56,520 --> 00:14:59,400 Speaker 4: when they ran out of benefits to give, corporations are 300 00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:01,320 Speaker 4: still giving them, like they're giving them money even not 301 00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:04,040 Speaker 4: getting tickets that I think they're doing it just to 302 00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:06,160 Speaker 4: be able to show Donald Trump that they that they 303 00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:09,280 Speaker 4: are supporting. And the other thing is Molly. It's like 304 00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:12,280 Speaker 4: sometimes the corporations give it and sometimes actually the billionaire 305 00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:13,560 Speaker 4: just gives out of their own pocket. 306 00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:18,320 Speaker 1: It's just remarkable, Yes, And I think what's really interesting 307 00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:22,840 Speaker 1: about this is that as we see these billionaires making 308 00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:27,239 Speaker 1: these choices, they are not even trying to excuse themselves. 309 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:29,760 Speaker 1: And then we see today and I feel like at 310 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:32,600 Speaker 1: every point they keep getting undermined by Trump, so like 311 00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:34,440 Speaker 1: they give all this money, and then we see the 312 00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:37,080 Speaker 1: Jack Smith stuff come out, and it shows that Trump 313 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:39,720 Speaker 1: has even done more right there. He's been a little 314 00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:41,840 Speaker 1: bit even, you know, just putting out this sort of 315 00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:46,120 Speaker 1: information of how he was involved in trying to overturn 316 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:49,240 Speaker 1: the twenty twenty election is pretty you know, if you 317 00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:52,480 Speaker 1: have any moral compass, you're like, wow, this guy. And 318 00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:56,800 Speaker 1: then today we saw that all of these former presidents right. 319 00:15:57,120 --> 00:15:58,560 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know if you saw this because 320 00:15:58,560 --> 00:16:01,480 Speaker 1: it's breaking news, but that in fact, all of these 321 00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:05,280 Speaker 1: former presidents are refusing to go and to his inauguration. 322 00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:08,960 Speaker 1: It's not just and for this one, it's Barack Obama, 323 00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:13,240 Speaker 1: Bill Clinton, George W. Bush all will not attend Trump's 324 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:17,800 Speaker 1: traditional inauguration lunch. I guess they don't want to suck 325 00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:18,800 Speaker 1: up to tech bros. 326 00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:21,600 Speaker 4: Right, and again, you know, the thing that I find 327 00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:25,080 Speaker 4: most remarkable is that these tech pro billionaires, you know, 328 00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:27,560 Speaker 4: they strut around as if they are the most important 329 00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:30,600 Speaker 4: people on earth. They're all powerful, all knowing all everything, 330 00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:33,320 Speaker 4: and they have kind of turned themselves into like the 331 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:36,040 Speaker 4: court jesters of Donald Trump. You know, he summons them 332 00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:38,160 Speaker 4: when he wants to be entertained. He's going to like, 333 00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:40,160 Speaker 4: you know, he's seating them, like there's going to be 334 00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:42,520 Speaker 4: some seating area for them. You know, he's doing this 335 00:16:42,680 --> 00:16:44,040 Speaker 4: to humiliate them, and. 336 00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:46,080 Speaker 2: He's got them fighting against each other. 337 00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:46,760 Speaker 5: Yeah. 338 00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:49,520 Speaker 4: Right, they think they're especially he's doing good to so 339 00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:52,040 Speaker 4: they'll be this visual of how he is. Essentially, he's 340 00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:53,600 Speaker 4: made them all sick with one another. 341 00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:54,200 Speaker 2: Yeah. 342 00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:56,600 Speaker 1: There are a lot of theories out there about Trump 343 00:16:56,640 --> 00:16:59,920 Speaker 1: and Elon and whether are this romance end? And you know, 344 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:03,120 Speaker 1: I've heard everything under the sun from like Elon loves 345 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:05,760 Speaker 1: Trump because he feels like he's a father friguer too. 346 00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:09,840 Speaker 1: Trump is using Elon as a fog guy for when 347 00:17:09,880 --> 00:17:12,919 Speaker 1: things go wrong. And I mean, if you were to 348 00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:15,960 Speaker 1: just look historically at Trump one point oh versus Trump 349 00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:18,240 Speaker 1: two point zero and Trump one point oh, there were 350 00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:19,919 Speaker 1: a number of fall guys. 351 00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:23,040 Speaker 4: Oh, with Trump, the one thing there always is is 352 00:17:23,080 --> 00:17:26,919 Speaker 4: a fall guy. Like the thing about authoritarians is that 353 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:28,879 Speaker 4: it can never be their full like whatever it is, 354 00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:32,200 Speaker 4: whatever the thing is, large or small. You know, remember 355 00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:34,760 Speaker 4: after the first inauguration, they go back to the White 356 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:37,400 Speaker 4: House briefing room, there's a press conference with Sean Spicer. 357 00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:41,320 Speaker 4: It goes horribly wrong on crowd size. It was Sean 358 00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:45,359 Speaker 4: Spicer like shortly thereafter like fall guy, and Mike is 359 00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:48,080 Speaker 4: out right and so like it can never like and 360 00:17:48,080 --> 00:17:49,520 Speaker 4: that was a small thing, right, that was like like 361 00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:51,080 Speaker 4: who cares? Like who cares what the size of the 362 00:17:51,119 --> 00:17:53,720 Speaker 4: crowd was other than Donald Trump. But with Donald Trump, 363 00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:55,719 Speaker 4: there always is going to be fall guys. So of 364 00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:59,120 Speaker 4: course it will be at some point whoever it'll be, 365 00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:02,520 Speaker 4: you know, it'll be Steven Miller. It'll be Remember one boy, 366 00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:05,640 Speaker 4: Steve Bannon got exiled from Trump World. And if Elon 367 00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:08,680 Speaker 4: Musk thinks he's any different, he's kidding himself. If what's 368 00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:11,879 Speaker 4: his name Zuckerberg thinks he's any different, Like Zuckerberg already 369 00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:13,600 Speaker 4: was the fall guy once for Donald Trump. But yet 370 00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:15,240 Speaker 4: he's groveling back his way in. 371 00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:18,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, and even like we're seeing reporting, you know that 372 00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:22,239 Speaker 1: Trump is already making fun of Steve Bannon for how 373 00:18:22,359 --> 00:18:25,199 Speaker 1: racist he is, right that he the guy loved you know, 374 00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:27,360 Speaker 1: there's some line in there about how. 375 00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:28,960 Speaker 2: You know he loves immigration so much. 376 00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:31,320 Speaker 1: I mean, the thing that I think is so interesting 377 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:34,359 Speaker 1: about like trump World destroying the mainstream media, which is 378 00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:37,840 Speaker 1: basically what's happened at this point, is that Trump loved 379 00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:41,440 Speaker 1: the mainstream media. That like, without a mainstream media, there 380 00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:44,120 Speaker 1: will be no Trump because these stories are all being 381 00:18:44,160 --> 00:18:46,760 Speaker 1: reported because there are leakers. 382 00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:50,520 Speaker 4: Yeah, no, that's exactly right, and you're spot on. I mean, 383 00:18:50,560 --> 00:18:53,959 Speaker 4: the weird thing about trump Ism and Donald Trump is 384 00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:59,160 Speaker 4: that trump Ism acts like the mainstream media is irrelevant, 385 00:18:59,359 --> 00:19:03,000 Speaker 4: like completely irrelevant. But Donald Trump, there is nothing more 386 00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:06,920 Speaker 4: relevant to Donald Trump that his coverage in the mainstream 387 00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:11,600 Speaker 4: I don't understand it, honestly, because you know, as you 388 00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:13,480 Speaker 4: and I have talked, like, I'm more of a critic 389 00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:16,679 Speaker 4: of the mainstream media than probably you are. But nobody 390 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:19,359 Speaker 4: loves his mainstream media more than Donald Trump. 391 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:22,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, we go back and forth on this conversation to 392 00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:24,000 Speaker 1: the mainstream media. My whole thing is just that the 393 00:19:24,119 --> 00:19:26,920 Speaker 1: reporting is so important and we're not going to get 394 00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:30,160 Speaker 1: it anywhere else. That said, I feel a little bit 395 00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:33,200 Speaker 1: good because and this is like a place I used 396 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:35,320 Speaker 1: to work and was not a good place for me, 397 00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:38,520 Speaker 1: But I think is I'm very excited that The Atlantic 398 00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:39,880 Speaker 1: is going to do more reporting. 399 00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:42,560 Speaker 4: Oh, the Atlantic is fabulous, And I do single out 400 00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:45,199 Speaker 4: in individual publications, by the way, and I've singled out 401 00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:47,159 Speaker 4: the Atlantic before. I think the Atlantic is fabulous. I 402 00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:48,680 Speaker 4: think it does phenomenal reporting. 403 00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:53,280 Speaker 1: And they're picking up a lot of the reporters who 404 00:19:53,440 --> 00:19:54,920 Speaker 1: you know, they're not saying at the Watching Post. 405 00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:57,400 Speaker 2: So like Ashley Parker, who I think is very. 406 00:19:57,280 --> 00:20:01,359 Speaker 1: Talented, is going to the Atlantic, and even like the 407 00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:05,360 Speaker 1: Wall Street Journal, which is owned by pretty much one 408 00:20:05,359 --> 00:20:08,480 Speaker 1: of the sort of architects of trump Ism. But at 409 00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:11,760 Speaker 1: least you know, they have done some good reporting. I 410 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:15,199 Speaker 1: personally have to separate the weed from the shaft when 411 00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:18,560 Speaker 1: it comes to because I just think without this reporting, 412 00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:19,200 Speaker 1: we're sunk. 413 00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:20,000 Speaker 5: Yeah. 414 00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:23,120 Speaker 4: I think the place where you and I differ is 415 00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:27,520 Speaker 4: whether that has to exist or whether it should exist 416 00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:33,040 Speaker 4: in a consolidated, large scale newspaper format. I mean, I 417 00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:34,879 Speaker 4: would say one of the strengths of the Atlantic is 418 00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:36,359 Speaker 4: that it's actually not a daily. 419 00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:38,960 Speaker 2: Newspaper, right for sure, it's small, yeah, and. 420 00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:41,800 Speaker 4: So like to me, it therefore allows it to do 421 00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:46,000 Speaker 4: reporting in a way that makes it less accountable to 422 00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:50,040 Speaker 4: the day and day day out transactional relationships with you know, 423 00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:52,880 Speaker 4: for example, a Trump Whitehouse. And so that's I think 424 00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:55,000 Speaker 4: probably one of the difference between you and I is 425 00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:57,720 Speaker 4: I wouldn't put the I wouldn't put The Atlantic in 426 00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:01,159 Speaker 4: the bucket of traditional legacy media in the way that 427 00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:02,640 Speaker 4: I would the Washington Post. 428 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:02,960 Speaker 5: For example. 429 00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:04,520 Speaker 2: Right, but the Washington Post. 430 00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:08,080 Speaker 1: I mean again, there was this letter this week four hundred. 431 00:21:08,119 --> 00:21:09,840 Speaker 2: I mean, all of these editors like. 432 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:12,800 Speaker 1: Leading with Bezos to just like we need to go 433 00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:15,960 Speaker 1: back to the Watergate Washington Post, and I mean, I 434 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:17,160 Speaker 1: don't think that's happening. 435 00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:19,639 Speaker 4: But but that's I think my point is that I 436 00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:22,800 Speaker 4: think that the big paradigm shift that we have learned 437 00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:25,919 Speaker 4: after the election is we assumed for many, many years 438 00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:31,199 Speaker 4: that if you had a large news institution that was 439 00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:35,240 Speaker 4: very prominent, very prestigious, and well funded, it would be 440 00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:38,400 Speaker 4: able to stand up to Donald Trump and people like him, 441 00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:40,240 Speaker 4: It would be able to hold people in power account 442 00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:43,480 Speaker 4: and that the problem with smaller independent media is that 443 00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:45,960 Speaker 4: they wouldn't have the resources to fight those fights. And 444 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:48,320 Speaker 4: what it turns out is it's actually the opposite, because 445 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:51,840 Speaker 4: it is those large institutions, because they have so many 446 00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:55,359 Speaker 4: holdings that government can touch, they're actually they you know, 447 00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:58,480 Speaker 4: like they are they If you're Disney, okay, you have 448 00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:01,480 Speaker 4: so many pieces of gus of business for the federal government. 449 00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:03,760 Speaker 4: Are you really going to be on Donald Trump's bad side? 450 00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:06,160 Speaker 4: If you are Jeff Bezos? You know, not that I'm 451 00:22:06,160 --> 00:22:08,479 Speaker 4: defending Jeff Bezos or Disney, but I think you know, 452 00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:10,320 Speaker 4: he would say like, I have so many you know, 453 00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:12,239 Speaker 4: or he wouldn't say, but one might say about him, 454 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:14,200 Speaker 4: you know, he has rockets he wants to launch, he 455 00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:16,879 Speaker 4: has aws services he wants to sell, and so like, 456 00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:19,200 Speaker 4: how much are you willing to be on the bad 457 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:23,399 Speaker 4: side of a narcissist president, whereas if you are a 458 00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:27,000 Speaker 4: smaller publication or an independent publication, the government has no 459 00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:29,359 Speaker 4: leverage over you. Donald Trump doesn't have any leverage over you, 460 00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:31,680 Speaker 4: and so you can afford to be tougher on them. 461 00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:32,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, agreed. 462 00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:34,840 Speaker 1: And I also think you know this is why we're 463 00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:36,920 Speaker 1: not supposed to have monopolies, right. This is the case 464 00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:40,480 Speaker 1: against monopolies is that if you own everything, you're conflicted 465 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:41,160 Speaker 1: on everything. 466 00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:41,680 Speaker 5: Correct. 467 00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:44,080 Speaker 4: That's I think you've actually just put it probably better 468 00:22:44,119 --> 00:22:46,960 Speaker 4: than I could. It is classic anti trust theory and 469 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:48,240 Speaker 4: why monopolies are bad. 470 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:51,240 Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, how down on democrats are you? 471 00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:53,760 Speaker 1: Because this has been a very tough three months for me, 472 00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:57,639 Speaker 1: and I have cycled through self blame other blame. I 473 00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:00,080 Speaker 1: think of you as very tough, and that is one 474 00:22:59,960 --> 00:23:02,320 Speaker 1: of the many things I respect about you. You are 475 00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:04,800 Speaker 1: very tough in a way that a lot of Democrats 476 00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:07,439 Speaker 1: are not. I mean, do you think democrats come around? 477 00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:10,520 Speaker 1: Are you furious with them? What is your takeaway. 478 00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:10,560 Speaker 2: From all of this? 479 00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:11,359 Speaker 5: Yeah? 480 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:14,439 Speaker 4: So I have two takes on it. The first is 481 00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:16,720 Speaker 4: I am less down on democrats than a lot of 482 00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:20,119 Speaker 4: people are. I think that the internal finger pointing between 483 00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:22,320 Speaker 4: whether it was the fault of this faction or that faction, 484 00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:24,600 Speaker 4: or this tactic or that tactic or this campaign. I 485 00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:28,239 Speaker 4: think is like just wasted time. And I think that 486 00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:30,879 Speaker 4: you can find a million reasons when you lose a 487 00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:33,399 Speaker 4: close election to blame everybody, and when you win a 488 00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:35,600 Speaker 4: close election, you can vidamilitary reason to credit everyone, and 489 00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:37,119 Speaker 4: I don't think that gets you anywhere. So like, I 490 00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:39,320 Speaker 4: have no time for that. And I think that there 491 00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:41,520 Speaker 4: are you know, people who say Democrats are not tough. 492 00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:43,280 Speaker 4: You know, I would point out it is hard to 493 00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:46,120 Speaker 4: look at what the Democratic Party did last summer, which 494 00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:49,159 Speaker 4: was you know, whether it was Nancy Pelissia, Chuck schumera King, 495 00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:53,159 Speaker 4: Jeffers or whomever you know that you know went to 496 00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:55,720 Speaker 4: President Biden and showed him the handwriting on the walls. 497 00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:57,480 Speaker 4: It's hard to say that's not a tough party. And 498 00:23:57,520 --> 00:23:59,920 Speaker 4: I think if you look at Democrats' ability to hold 499 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:03,840 Speaker 4: their caucuses in close legislative chambers and the House, in 500 00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:05,840 Speaker 4: the Senate, charges say that they're up tough. I think 501 00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:09,000 Speaker 4: that where that there are places where people think I 502 00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:11,840 Speaker 4: am tough. It's because I am willing to use every 503 00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:14,879 Speaker 4: legal means in every legal tactic to protect democracy and 504 00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:17,800 Speaker 4: to advance my client's interests. And you know, I listened 505 00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:21,600 Speaker 4: to Merrick Garland's closing remarks to the Department of Justice, 506 00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:24,880 Speaker 4: and frankly, I couldn't disagree with him more. I mean, 507 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:27,520 Speaker 4: he basically said that the strength of the Department of 508 00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:30,280 Speaker 4: Justice and this is you know, his quote, it's the 509 00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:32,639 Speaker 4: obligation of each of us to follow our norms, not 510 00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:34,920 Speaker 4: only when it's easy, but when it's hard, especially when 511 00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:37,040 Speaker 4: it's hard, And he says, it's the obligation each of 512 00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:39,959 Speaker 4: us sudhere to our norms even when, especially when circumstances 513 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:42,119 Speaker 4: we face are not normal. And like you know, I 514 00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:44,960 Speaker 4: wrote this piece for Democracy Doc about you know, bringing 515 00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:48,199 Speaker 4: norms to a Trump fight. Like you know, I have 516 00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:50,520 Speaker 4: no patience for that. We cannot have a situation in 517 00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:52,720 Speaker 4: which Democrats are held to one standard and hold themselves 518 00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:55,280 Speaker 4: to one standard, and Republicans are held to no standard 519 00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:57,280 Speaker 4: and hold themselves to no standard. Like we have to 520 00:24:57,280 --> 00:24:59,119 Speaker 4: fight with the tools as they are, not as we 521 00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:02,040 Speaker 4: wish they are. They it means following the law. You know, 522 00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:04,600 Speaker 4: we don't cross the line. But the idea that somehow 523 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:08,640 Speaker 4: norms are the guideposts here, I just reject. 524 00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:12,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, correct, Mark, thank you, thank you, thank. 525 00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:13,080 Speaker 4: You, thank you. 526 00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:18,520 Speaker 1: Michael Waldman is the President and CEO of the Brennan 527 00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:21,720 Speaker 1: Center for Justice at the NYU School of Law. 528 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:24,440 Speaker 2: Welcome back to Fast Politics, Michael. 529 00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:27,520 Speaker 5: Thank you so much for having me in these interesting times. 530 00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:30,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm so delighted to have you. And the first thing. 531 00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:31,800 Speaker 1: I want to talk to you about is you run 532 00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:35,159 Speaker 1: the Brennan Center. You guys, just do God's work. We 533 00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:38,840 Speaker 1: are Monday will be the first day of Trump two 534 00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:42,920 Speaker 1: point zero. He is planning shock and awe. How can 535 00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:47,240 Speaker 1: the courts save the American people from or mitigate some 536 00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:49,400 Speaker 1: of the shock and the awe. 537 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:53,040 Speaker 5: So it's important, I think, to remember that shock and 538 00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:57,240 Speaker 5: awe didn't work out so well in Iraq for the 539 00:25:57,280 --> 00:25:59,840 Speaker 5: American side when we swept in. 540 00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:03,440 Speaker 1: The wording is suspect, Yes, continues sorry. 541 00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:05,480 Speaker 5: Well, the wording is suspect. But it's a lot of 542 00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:08,520 Speaker 5: the same idea. When they say they are going to 543 00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:13,320 Speaker 5: issue a slew of executive orders on the first day, 544 00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:17,200 Speaker 5: in the first hour of the new presidency, in part, 545 00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:19,960 Speaker 5: they're trying to imprint the idea that they're all action 546 00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:23,400 Speaker 5: and changing everything. In fact, a lot of the executive 547 00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:27,400 Speaker 5: orders that any president's issue don't have nearly as much 548 00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:29,080 Speaker 5: teeth as legislation. 549 00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:31,120 Speaker 2: That's a really important point. 550 00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:33,439 Speaker 5: I worked in the White House, as you know, for 551 00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:36,320 Speaker 5: Bill Clinton on the day he took office in nineteen 552 00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:39,320 Speaker 5: ninety three, and we also issued a bunch of executive orders. 553 00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:42,080 Speaker 5: Some of them are really meaningful, and some of them 554 00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:44,960 Speaker 5: are kind of like press releases with a. 555 00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:47,720 Speaker 2: Governmentber Well, exactly, what we do know is. 556 00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:49,760 Speaker 5: That he is going to try to use all the 557 00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:55,440 Speaker 5: levers of executive power to do mass deportation, to politicize 558 00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:58,840 Speaker 5: the government, to do a whole bunch of other things 559 00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:02,840 Speaker 5: that he tried has talked about very openly NonStop for 560 00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:05,439 Speaker 5: months and months and months. Some of these are at 561 00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:07,679 Speaker 5: the very beginning of the administration. In the answer to 562 00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:11,000 Speaker 5: your question, presidents have a lot of power. Unfortunately, a 563 00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:13,919 Speaker 5: lot of the existing laws give them even more power 564 00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:16,040 Speaker 5: than they should have. But a lot of the things 565 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:18,560 Speaker 5: they say they want to do are illegal, and courts 566 00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:20,400 Speaker 5: should step up. And it's going to be a real 567 00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:21,960 Speaker 5: test for the courts and whether they. 568 00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:25,800 Speaker 1: Step up, Yeah, especially because they're the only lever left. 569 00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:28,399 Speaker 1: I do think that that's a really good point, and 570 00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:33,400 Speaker 1: we saw this reporting from Politico about how he's already saying, 571 00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:35,760 Speaker 1: like the mass deportation, he can't do it because he 572 00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:38,080 Speaker 1: doesn't have the money. Right, Congress has to give the 573 00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:41,359 Speaker 1: money in order to pay. I mean, mass deportation is 574 00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:43,680 Speaker 1: wildly expensive, correct. 575 00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:48,560 Speaker 5: Right, it's wildly expensive. There isn't actually a massive federal 576 00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:52,320 Speaker 5: internal police force that can just instantaneously be mobilized to 577 00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:55,480 Speaker 5: go seize people off the streets and things like that, 578 00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:59,000 Speaker 5: as Politico and other outlets have reported, some of the 579 00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:02,600 Speaker 5: steps that any president can take that's more kind of 580 00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:05,560 Speaker 5: clearly within their own purview, or things like what they 581 00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:07,720 Speaker 5: do at the border. Look, there are a lot of 582 00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:10,120 Speaker 5: steps that Donald Trump has said he's going to take 583 00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:13,119 Speaker 5: on mass deportation that we just have every reason to 584 00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:15,479 Speaker 5: expect he'll do some version of some of them. He 585 00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:19,320 Speaker 5: has said that he will take away the temporary protected status, 586 00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:24,080 Speaker 5: say for Venezuela and Haitian immigrants, that enables these people 587 00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:27,800 Speaker 5: to work legally in the United States while their immigration 588 00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:31,280 Speaker 5: claims are being assessed. Taking that away would have a 589 00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:33,840 Speaker 5: huge impact on a lot of people. He has said 590 00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:36,919 Speaker 5: he will declare an emergency at the border to enable 591 00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:40,040 Speaker 5: him to build his wall. And do other kinds of things. 592 00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:43,840 Speaker 5: Presidents have a lot of power to declare emergencies. Now, 593 00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:46,600 Speaker 5: in his first term, he tried to declare an emergency 594 00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:51,400 Speaker 5: and use that fact to reallocate money from a different 595 00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:54,160 Speaker 5: department to pay for building his wall, and that was 596 00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:57,320 Speaker 5: actually unsuccessful. So, you know, even though there is a 597 00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:00,640 Speaker 5: lot of power presidents have, there are still restricts in 598 00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:03,720 Speaker 5: some cases. And those of us who who want to 599 00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:05,440 Speaker 5: stand up for the rule of law, those of us 600 00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:08,160 Speaker 5: who think the courts need to do their part, have 601 00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:08,840 Speaker 5: a job to do. 602 00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:11,480 Speaker 2: Yeah. One of the things I'm struck by is the 603 00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:13,200 Speaker 2: Muslim ban, right. 604 00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:16,160 Speaker 5: Right, Remember that was the very beginning. Yeah, you know, 605 00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:18,320 Speaker 5: this is one of the things where they probably have 606 00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:21,520 Speaker 5: learned their lessons maybe on some of what they did 607 00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:24,440 Speaker 5: wrong the first time. So you know, you remember in 608 00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:26,840 Speaker 5: twice sixteen he said we're going to ban all Muslims 609 00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:29,120 Speaker 5: from coming into the United States till we find out 610 00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:31,640 Speaker 5: what's going on. Very early on, a few days into 611 00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:34,640 Speaker 5: his term, he issued a travel ban from a bunch 612 00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:38,440 Speaker 5: of countries that were Muslim majority. Courts very quickly started 613 00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:41,840 Speaker 5: blocking that from going into effect, if you remember, But 614 00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:44,720 Speaker 5: like a lot of lawyers rushed to Kennedy Airport. 615 00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:45,920 Speaker 2: I do remember to. 616 00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:49,200 Speaker 5: Represent people who were in limbo. But what the courts 617 00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:53,080 Speaker 5: then said, what John Roberts and his very conservative Supreme 618 00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:56,000 Speaker 5: Court said then was well, you didn't cross the tea 619 00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:58,480 Speaker 5: and dout the I right and didn't follow the procedures. 620 00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:01,760 Speaker 5: You didn't follow the Administrative Act. But then they eventually 621 00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:03,720 Speaker 5: let him do what he wanted to do in a 622 00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:06,360 Speaker 5: case called Trump versus Hawaii. In other words, where the 623 00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:08,480 Speaker 5: courts were willing to stand up to him the first 624 00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:12,480 Speaker 5: time was to make them follow the procedures. It may 625 00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:15,480 Speaker 5: be that this time they're going to be more fastidious 626 00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:18,120 Speaker 5: about following the procedures. One of the things that we've 627 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:20,240 Speaker 5: looked at a lot. You know, presidents have a lot 628 00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:24,120 Speaker 5: of power to do immigration policy, and that includes deportations. 629 00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:26,240 Speaker 5: I mean Barack Obama, you know, deported a lot of 630 00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:29,640 Speaker 5: people for example. It's part of the mix of immigration policies. 631 00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:32,240 Speaker 5: What Trump has said he wants to do is use 632 00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:36,280 Speaker 5: laws that are incredibly abusive of power and give him 633 00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:38,960 Speaker 5: vast authority. And a lot of these laws that haven't 634 00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:41,560 Speaker 5: been used very much he wants to use, He said, 635 00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:45,120 Speaker 5: the Insurrection Act of eighteen oh four to enable him 636 00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:48,040 Speaker 5: to use the military domestically to do some of this stuff. 637 00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:51,040 Speaker 5: He wants to use the National Emergencies Act. He says 638 00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:52,760 Speaker 5: he wants to use. He talked about this on the 639 00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:55,600 Speaker 5: campaign trail. He wants to use the remaining part of 640 00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:59,480 Speaker 5: the Alien and Sedition Act. Yes, which I know I 641 00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:01,880 Speaker 5: know about you. I last thought about that in high 642 00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:02,520 Speaker 5: school history. 643 00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:03,400 Speaker 2: Right. 644 00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:06,160 Speaker 1: That is something we actually had someone from the Brennan 645 00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:08,880 Speaker 1: Center on Because you have someone who has just focused 646 00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:11,840 Speaker 1: on that now and writing about it, and she's right. 647 00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:14,240 Speaker 5: We have a lawyer who was working away on this 648 00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:18,320 Speaker 5: Alien Enemies Act who are like, really, like, isn't that 649 00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:19,960 Speaker 5: rather obscure thing that'd be spent? 650 00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:23,280 Speaker 1: No, but it's not. It's in Project twenty twenty five. 651 00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:26,360 Speaker 1: I mean, what's so interesting about this Trump two point zero, 652 00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:29,400 Speaker 1: and I mean this in only the most pejorative sense, 653 00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:33,000 Speaker 1: is that they have taken all of these like zombie 654 00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:37,440 Speaker 1: laws like this and also comstock, and also that they've 655 00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:39,160 Speaker 1: repurposed for modern use. 656 00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:42,280 Speaker 2: So you know, you have to be at war. Right. 657 00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:45,400 Speaker 1: The last time this happened was World War two with Japanese. 658 00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:49,200 Speaker 1: Before that, World War One, Before that, the War of eighteen. 659 00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:51,680 Speaker 5: Twelve, the British supporters were being interned. Yeah. 660 00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:55,320 Speaker 1: Right, So this sort of legal framework for it seems 661 00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:57,920 Speaker 1: very very shaky. I think we both think and we 662 00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:00,240 Speaker 1: actually had a conversation about this, where we think he's 663 00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:02,320 Speaker 1: going to try to declare war on the cartels. 664 00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:04,040 Speaker 2: I don't see how you do that. 665 00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:07,200 Speaker 5: So that's one where he's on very weak legal ground 666 00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:10,000 Speaker 5: if he tries to use it. The Alien This Sedition Acts, 667 00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:12,280 Speaker 5: for those who missed that day in high school history, 668 00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:15,240 Speaker 5: were these laws that are considered some of the worst 669 00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:18,040 Speaker 5: laws in American history. They were passed in the John 670 00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:22,120 Speaker 5: Adams administration and they cracked down on free speech and dissent. 671 00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:25,880 Speaker 5: Thomas Jefferson called them the result of the reign of witches, 672 00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:30,120 Speaker 5: and they really discredited it. And the only one of 673 00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:32,720 Speaker 5: those laws that's still in the books is this one. 674 00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:35,440 Speaker 5: And you're right, it's only been used three times, and 675 00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:38,080 Speaker 5: the last time it was used was during World War 676 00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:41,320 Speaker 5: two to in turn Japanese nationals who had people who 677 00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:44,280 Speaker 5: had not gotten their American citizenship yet. But it's pretty 678 00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:47,200 Speaker 5: clear in the language that it has to be against 679 00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:50,560 Speaker 5: a government we're at declared war with or the result 680 00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:53,520 Speaker 5: of an invasion so you know that was the case 681 00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:56,560 Speaker 5: when we were attacked at say, at Pearl Harbor. We 682 00:32:56,600 --> 00:32:58,800 Speaker 5: had an actual declaration of war in World War Two. 683 00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:01,000 Speaker 5: It was the last time we had one. But you know, 684 00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:04,800 Speaker 5: we're not at war with Venezuela and the cartels are 685 00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:07,720 Speaker 5: not a government. They may say, I suppose, oh, well, 686 00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:10,240 Speaker 5: it's an invasion. You know, they have all these immigrants, 687 00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:13,640 Speaker 5: but it's pretty illegal. The problem is this is where 688 00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:16,280 Speaker 5: we need the courts to step up. In the past, 689 00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:20,120 Speaker 5: courts have often said about this particular law, oh well, 690 00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:22,240 Speaker 5: you know, this doesn't seem right, but this is a 691 00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:25,240 Speaker 5: political question. That's actually up to the president to decide 692 00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:27,960 Speaker 5: these things. Now, a lot of those rulings were a 693 00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:30,640 Speaker 5: long time ago, before courts were in the business of 694 00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:33,760 Speaker 5: enforcing civil liberties the way they do now. So you know, 695 00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:37,120 Speaker 5: that one I think is really illegal, and honestly, I 696 00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:39,080 Speaker 5: think that it would surprise me if they really went 697 00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:41,480 Speaker 5: to that one, because because that one is on such 698 00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:43,800 Speaker 5: shaky ground. A lot of these other things are things 699 00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:47,600 Speaker 5: where presidents have considerable authority, and people don't realize. The 700 00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:51,480 Speaker 5: National Guard is a military force controlled by states by 701 00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:55,360 Speaker 5: the governor, but presidents can federalize the National Guard, and 702 00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:57,960 Speaker 5: that has happened. You know, to put in nineteen ninety 703 00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:01,280 Speaker 5: two to deal with violence and life Los Angeles example, 704 00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:04,080 Speaker 5: it would be quite extraordinary to do that to deal 705 00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:06,600 Speaker 5: with what is a lot of immigration, but it's basically 706 00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:07,720 Speaker 5: an immigration issue. 707 00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:09,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think this is where we're going to be 708 00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:12,880 Speaker 1: for the next four years. How many nights have you 709 00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:15,080 Speaker 1: lost sleep thinking about Russ Fodd? 710 00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:18,880 Speaker 5: So you know, first of all, Donald Trump said during 711 00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:22,680 Speaker 5: the campaign that he'd never heard of Project twenty twenty five. 712 00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:25,480 Speaker 5: He didn't know these people where you'd never heard of 713 00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:27,880 Speaker 5: this heritage what do you call it? The Heritage Foundation? 714 00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:32,000 Speaker 5: It was so transparently absurd. It was like that in 715 00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:33,880 Speaker 5: the Marx Brothers movie. You know who you're going to 716 00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:35,840 Speaker 5: believe me or your own eyes. First of all, I 717 00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:38,920 Speaker 5: happened to go to Milwaukee of the weekend of the 718 00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:42,920 Speaker 5: Republican Convention for a family wedding, not because of the convention. 719 00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:45,839 Speaker 5: While Trump was saying, oh what, I never heard of 720 00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:47,919 Speaker 5: any of these people. I never heard of Project twenty 721 00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:50,160 Speaker 5: twenty five. When you got to the airport, it was 722 00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:54,160 Speaker 5: a floor to ceiling display saying the Heritage Foundation welcomes 723 00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:58,000 Speaker 5: you to the Republican National Commission. The corporate sponsor was 724 00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:01,400 Speaker 5: Project twenty twenty five. Russ Vault was one of the 725 00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:04,239 Speaker 5: minds behind one of the authors of Project twenty twenty five. 726 00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:07,080 Speaker 5: He was a senior official in the Trump White House 727 00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:10,719 Speaker 5: the first time. He is smart, he is adept at 728 00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:14,520 Speaker 5: fiddling with the levers of government, and he is extraordinarily 729 00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:18,160 Speaker 5: ideological and even extreme in what he wants. He wants 730 00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:21,600 Speaker 5: a religious approach to government. He said, we I believe 731 00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:23,520 Speaker 5: tell me if I'm mixing him up with one of 732 00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:25,640 Speaker 5: the other boys, I believe he's the one who said 733 00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:27,439 Speaker 5: we live in a post constitutional era. 734 00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:29,759 Speaker 2: He is, he is, he is, that's him. Yeah. 735 00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:32,399 Speaker 5: At the Brandon Center where I work, we actually have 736 00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:36,239 Speaker 5: the Constitution on the wall. So I don't think most 737 00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:38,960 Speaker 5: Americans think or want to believe that we're in a 738 00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:41,520 Speaker 5: post constitutional era. But he is one of the people 739 00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:45,160 Speaker 5: who has a very radical legal view of what government 740 00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:47,040 Speaker 5: ought to be allowed to do. That is much more 741 00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:52,319 Speaker 5: assertive than traditional conservatives, even sort of federalist society conservatives 742 00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:52,919 Speaker 5: have had. 743 00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:56,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, and it is interesting to me to put so. 744 00:35:56,280 --> 00:35:59,880 Speaker 1: He had been in omb before Office of Management and Budget, 745 00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:02,600 Speaker 1: and he did in Trump one point zero do things 746 00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:07,160 Speaker 1: like hold money that was supposed to go to federal agencies, right, 747 00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:08,960 Speaker 1: and was supposed to go to Ukraine. That was the 748 00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:13,959 Speaker 1: most famous of his alliances into this, but one you 749 00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:17,480 Speaker 1: sort of dig into Project twenty twenty five, there's sort 750 00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:19,000 Speaker 1: of a lot of like, this is how we can 751 00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:22,080 Speaker 1: get people to do this, and it's by holding the money, 752 00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:24,600 Speaker 1: which is really not what the president is supposed to 753 00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:25,480 Speaker 1: be doing at all. 754 00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:28,120 Speaker 5: Right, it violates when you say we're in a post 755 00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:30,080 Speaker 5: constitutional era. One of the ways that would be post 756 00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:33,480 Speaker 5: constitutional is the Constitution, you know, articularly it's checking cons 757 00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:35,719 Speaker 5: You talked about the zombie laws. I think it's a 758 00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:38,200 Speaker 5: really good point when you look at the Comstock actor. 759 00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:40,640 Speaker 5: Some of these things, they're really talking about the social 760 00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:43,319 Speaker 5: values of the eighteen hundreds. A lot of these other 761 00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:48,040 Speaker 5: things are trying to undo the restraints on abuse of 762 00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:52,480 Speaker 5: presidential power that were enacted over the last fifty sixty 763 00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:56,440 Speaker 5: seventy years after Nixon. After Nixon, so one of the 764 00:36:56,520 --> 00:37:00,120 Speaker 5: big issues at the time of Nixon's impeachment was what 765 00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:03,960 Speaker 5: was called impoundment. He claimed then the right to not 766 00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:07,520 Speaker 5: spend money that Congress had passed the law, saying he 767 00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:10,120 Speaker 5: had to spend the president, the government had to spend, 768 00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:12,560 Speaker 5: and it was considered, it was found on constitutional it 769 00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:14,800 Speaker 5: was the basis for some of the charges of the 770 00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:17,719 Speaker 5: abuse of power, and all kinds of budget rules were 771 00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:19,840 Speaker 5: put in place to make sure that this couldn't happen. 772 00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:22,480 Speaker 5: A lot of people, I guess on the right think 773 00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:26,960 Speaker 5: this was all a grand mistake. You see this also 774 00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:30,360 Speaker 5: with the immunity decision by the Supreme Court going back 775 00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:35,640 Speaker 5: that really went back to again Nixon, when courts ruled 776 00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:39,719 Speaker 5: in the cases about Nixon's tapes and other things that oh, no, 777 00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:42,560 Speaker 5: there are restrictions. You know, the law does apply to presidents. 778 00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:46,200 Speaker 5: Presidents are subject to criminal law. Certainly after they're in office, 779 00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:49,600 Speaker 5: they're subjects to criminal law. And again there's a strain 780 00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:52,640 Speaker 5: of thought on the right that's kind of a monarchical 781 00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:56,200 Speaker 5: approach that thinks that it was a big mistake to 782 00:37:56,480 --> 00:37:59,759 Speaker 5: have these kinds of things that embedded the presidency in 783 00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:01,680 Speaker 5: the rule of law. And you know, they call it 784 00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:04,640 Speaker 5: in some instances they call it the unitary executive theory, 785 00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:08,000 Speaker 5: with basically say everybody in the whole executive branch works 786 00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:12,360 Speaker 5: for the present personally. So Rustvot saying in effect, It 787 00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:14,759 Speaker 5: doesn't matter what Congress does. We're just going to spend 788 00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:16,400 Speaker 5: the money how we want to spend it. They're going 789 00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:19,279 Speaker 5: to put this kind of like fancy legal jargon and 790 00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:21,680 Speaker 5: justification for it. But it's just a power grab. 791 00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:24,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, no, exactly, it's just a power grab. 792 00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:28,640 Speaker 1: It's extra constitutional or whatever they're calling it. 793 00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:30,160 Speaker 5: It is definitely because. 794 00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:33,600 Speaker 1: There's this larger idea that what trump Ism is trying 795 00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:38,080 Speaker 1: to do is sort of repeal the entire century since Nixon, 796 00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:41,839 Speaker 1: not century, but the fifty sixty years since nixton. That 797 00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:44,960 Speaker 1: this is and even before that, that's sort of every 798 00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:48,240 Speaker 1: the social safety net, everything since sort of nineteen twenty 799 00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:51,759 Speaker 1: nine on. Is really the last hundred years that Trumpism 800 00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:53,959 Speaker 1: wants to repeal the last hundred years. Do you see 801 00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:56,600 Speaker 1: that legally? Do you see that as something that could 802 00:38:56,680 --> 00:38:57,440 Speaker 1: be possible? 803 00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:01,319 Speaker 5: You know, I figure right that that is that is 804 00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:04,240 Speaker 5: something that you see across a lot of these areas. 805 00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:08,279 Speaker 5: And there are ways in which this has already played out, 806 00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:12,799 Speaker 5: not just with Trump's you know, personal idiosyncrasies, but a 807 00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:17,440 Speaker 5: lot of the efforts by the conservative legal movement leading 808 00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:20,279 Speaker 5: up to this, including at the US Supreme Court. So 809 00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:23,400 Speaker 5: give you an example, for a lot of the country's 810 00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:26,160 Speaker 5: history and mal you know, I wrote a book on 811 00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:28,160 Speaker 5: the history of the Supreme Court that talks about this. 812 00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:31,400 Speaker 5: From a lot of the country's history, the Supreme Court 813 00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:35,120 Speaker 5: saw its role as being kind of to stop progress. 814 00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:38,440 Speaker 5: It was often a very conservative force, and in the 815 00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:42,439 Speaker 5: early twentieth century, what the justices of that time thought 816 00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:46,160 Speaker 5: their job was was to stop government from acting, from 817 00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:51,560 Speaker 5: regulating worker hours or public safety, you know, a lot 818 00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:54,160 Speaker 5: of the things, to protect people. And they would over 819 00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:57,520 Speaker 5: and over again make these constitutional rulings to stop government 820 00:39:57,520 --> 00:40:00,160 Speaker 5: from acting. At the beginning of the twentieth century, this 821 00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:02,800 Speaker 5: was the basis of a lot of fighting between Theodore 822 00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:06,359 Speaker 5: Roosevelt and the Court, between the Progressives as they were known, 823 00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:09,080 Speaker 5: and then and then ultimately Franklin Roosevelt. He fought when 824 00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:11,799 Speaker 5: the Court was trying to strike down the New Deal, 825 00:40:12,440 --> 00:40:16,280 Speaker 5: Roosevelt threatened to try to get them expanded, packing the court. 826 00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:18,759 Speaker 5: And what happened was in nineteen thirty seven, in the 827 00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:20,960 Speaker 5: middle of all is the Supreme Court back down and 828 00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:23,279 Speaker 5: they said, you know what, government agencies, you can do 829 00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:26,279 Speaker 5: your thing. You can regulate the economy, you can protect people. 830 00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:29,399 Speaker 5: We're not going to pretend it's some constitutional issue. This 831 00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:31,680 Speaker 5: is how we have a modern country. There are some 832 00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:34,399 Speaker 5: people who think it was a grave mistake. They call 833 00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:37,080 Speaker 5: it the Constitution in exile. They think it went into 834 00:40:37,120 --> 00:40:39,719 Speaker 5: exile in nineteen thirty seven. One of the people who 835 00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:42,080 Speaker 5: thinks that, there was a New York Times article about 836 00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:44,960 Speaker 5: twenty years ago in a Times magazine that said, you know, 837 00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:47,759 Speaker 5: here's this kind of kooky idea, and here are some 838 00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:50,320 Speaker 5: of the people who believe it. Here's a young judge 839 00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:53,040 Speaker 5: you've never heard of named John Roberts. 840 00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:55,360 Speaker 2: Oh no, that's not good. 841 00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:59,080 Speaker 5: Wonder well, we'll ever come of him. And so the 842 00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:02,600 Speaker 5: Supreme Court, of several opinions of the last few years, 843 00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:05,880 Speaker 5: has for the first time in at least half a century, 844 00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:11,520 Speaker 5: made constitutional claims to basically limit the power of government 845 00:41:11,520 --> 00:41:14,839 Speaker 5: agencies to do regulation on the environment and on other 846 00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:17,400 Speaker 5: things like that. And that is not just Donald Trump. 847 00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:20,480 Speaker 5: That's the kind of thing you see across the government. 848 00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:24,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, now, thank you, Michael, really appreciate you. And this 849 00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:27,960 Speaker 1: was really so Again, We're going to be using this 850 00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:29,600 Speaker 1: word a lot for the next four years. 851 00:41:29,719 --> 00:41:30,120 Speaker 2: Chilling. 852 00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:33,440 Speaker 5: It's chilling. But remember this is a scary time. But 853 00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:37,080 Speaker 5: the laws of political gravity have not been repealed. You know, 854 00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:39,319 Speaker 5: Donald Trump is now going to have countries, not just 855 00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:41,480 Speaker 5: going to be true thing about things. He's going to 856 00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:44,080 Speaker 5: have control of the government, of the executive branch. There'll 857 00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:47,760 Speaker 5: be consequences. And while it's hard, there are many ways 858 00:41:47,880 --> 00:41:50,080 Speaker 5: that if there are biass of power, that we all 859 00:41:50,120 --> 00:41:51,480 Speaker 5: have the ability to push back. 860 00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:54,440 Speaker 2: Right, all right, true, thank you. 861 00:41:55,239 --> 00:42:01,640 Speaker 5: Thank you, No moment, Jesse Cannon. 862 00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:05,359 Speaker 3: So, Molly, you may remember the last secessionist movement, which 863 00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:09,520 Speaker 3: was the Greater Idaho SECESSIONUS movement that didn't quite get 864 00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:12,080 Speaker 3: off the ground because well, it was pretty stupid to 865 00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:17,680 Speaker 3: bring California, Oregon, and Washington into Idaho, a state that 866 00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:20,160 Speaker 3: isn't doing so hot. But now we have one that's 867 00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:23,320 Speaker 3: even stupider, which is seceding from Illinois. What are you 868 00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:23,879 Speaker 3: seeing here? 869 00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:27,080 Speaker 2: Yes, cis from Illinois. Again. 870 00:42:27,560 --> 00:42:29,440 Speaker 1: I just want to point this out for a second 871 00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:34,040 Speaker 1: because I think this is worth mentioning for just a 872 00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:39,759 Speaker 1: hot minute. As Trump tries to bully California and complains 873 00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:43,680 Speaker 1: about how they want aid and that they're takers. California 874 00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:47,840 Speaker 1: has pays a ton of federal taxes. 875 00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:49,880 Speaker 2: Now they need us. 876 00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:55,680 Speaker 1: If they seceed, We're all completely fucked. Okay, versus a place, 877 00:42:56,480 --> 00:42:58,640 Speaker 1: versus the state of New Illinois. 878 00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:00,880 Speaker 2: They're never going to be able to get this organized. 879 00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:03,800 Speaker 1: But I just want to point out, and if anyone 880 00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:07,360 Speaker 1: can handle something that's stupid, it is one of this 881 00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:11,239 Speaker 1: program's favorite governors, Governor Pritzker. But I just want to 882 00:43:11,239 --> 00:43:14,239 Speaker 1: point out, like no one, you know, the state of 883 00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:18,479 Speaker 1: New Illinois, you know got you know, go with God team. 884 00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:22,319 Speaker 1: If you want to join Indiana, they're happy to have you. 885 00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:26,840 Speaker 1: Instead of succeeding, they should just join us, all right, sure, 886 00:43:26,960 --> 00:43:28,920 Speaker 1: why not? Or we could just make a ton of 887 00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:32,080 Speaker 1: news states. We're looking at DC and Puerto Rico as 888 00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:36,920 Speaker 1: our as our addition. So that's it for this episode 889 00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:43,080 Speaker 1: of Fast Politics. Tune in every Monday, Wednesday, Thursday and 890 00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:47,360 Speaker 1: Saturday to hear the best minds and politics make sense 891 00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:51,720 Speaker 1: of all this chaos. If you enjoy this podcast, please 892 00:43:51,760 --> 00:43:54,800 Speaker 1: send it to a friend and keep the conversation going. 893 00:43:55,280 --> 00:43:56,440 Speaker 2: Thanks for listening.