1 00:00:09,760 --> 00:00:13,960 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots Podcast. 2 00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:17,640 Speaker 1: I'm Joe Wisenthal and I'm Tracy Alloway. How's it going, Tracy, 3 00:00:17,680 --> 00:00:20,200 Speaker 1: I feel like it's been a long time since we've talked. Well, 4 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:22,560 Speaker 1: it has been a long time. I went on a 5 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:25,119 Speaker 1: lovely vacation for about two weeks. It probably doesn't make 6 00:00:25,160 --> 00:00:28,240 Speaker 1: sense our listeners because we prerecorded some and so they've 7 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:30,960 Speaker 1: been coming out every week. But I guess so this 8 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:33,240 Speaker 1: is just me and you talking. It's uh, it's nice 9 00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:35,839 Speaker 1: to catch up. Yeah, it's good. Uh, and all our 10 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:39,880 Speaker 1: listeners should really admire our organizational skills and the skills 11 00:00:39,880 --> 00:00:44,160 Speaker 1: of our producer as well for enabling the seamless, seamless transition. 12 00:00:44,479 --> 00:00:48,040 Speaker 1: Well put, So today I we're going to go back 13 00:00:48,080 --> 00:00:52,160 Speaker 1: to one of our favorite topics that we revisit from 14 00:00:52,200 --> 00:00:56,160 Speaker 1: time to time on this podcast. And it's not gambling, 15 00:00:56,160 --> 00:00:58,319 Speaker 1: which we talked about quite a bit, as you know, 16 00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:02,160 Speaker 1: chess know. It's not just it's nothing to do with games. 17 00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:05,160 Speaker 1: It's not about betting on baseball or poker. It's not 18 00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:09,240 Speaker 1: even about the bond market, which is a common theme. Uh. No, 19 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:13,320 Speaker 1: we're gonna be talking about what money is and trying to, 20 00:01:13,959 --> 00:01:17,319 Speaker 1: you know, come to more understanding about what we actually 21 00:01:17,319 --> 00:01:20,880 Speaker 1: do when we pay for things and stuff like that 22 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:24,280 Speaker 1: or every day, everyday lives. That was a very articulate. 23 00:01:26,440 --> 00:01:29,280 Speaker 1: It's a good show. I really enjoyed this topic because 24 00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:35,440 Speaker 1: it's something that clearly touches everyone's lives. To borrow from Oprah, 25 00:01:35,520 --> 00:01:38,600 Speaker 1: I guess I'm a little rusty coming back to this podcast, 26 00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:42,720 Speaker 1: but it's something that clearly everyone does, right. We all 27 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:45,200 Speaker 1: pay for things, we all use cash, we all use 28 00:01:45,319 --> 00:01:50,200 Speaker 1: credit cards, online bank accounts, branch bank accounts in some ways, 29 00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:53,800 Speaker 1: and all of that is a big, big thing in 30 00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:57,200 Speaker 1: our lives, and it's something that is also rapidly changing. 31 00:01:57,560 --> 00:01:59,920 Speaker 1: It's one of the most important things in our lives 32 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:02,920 Speaker 1: and probably one of the least understood, to the point 33 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:05,400 Speaker 1: where people don't even try to understand it. And that's 34 00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:08,520 Speaker 1: what makes it so fascinating. And as I one of 35 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:12,480 Speaker 1: our earlier guests along time ago noted, usually the people 36 00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:16,840 Speaker 1: who are most intimately involved with money economists are the 37 00:02:16,880 --> 00:02:21,120 Speaker 1: worst actually at defining it. And so I think that's 38 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:24,160 Speaker 1: what I'm really excited about today's guests, because today we're 39 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:28,120 Speaker 1: going to be talking to someone who actually is a 40 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:32,320 Speaker 1: professor of media studies who studies money, and so someone 41 00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:35,720 Speaker 1: who's very you know, not uh not coming at it 42 00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:38,760 Speaker 1: from the economics angle, but maybe because of that can 43 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:43,600 Speaker 1: actually shed some unusual light on the subject. Oh well, 44 00:02:43,639 --> 00:02:45,919 Speaker 1: that sounds really interesting, and I think I know what 45 00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:49,000 Speaker 1: your first question should be. Yeah, mid too, So all right, 46 00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:50,800 Speaker 1: let's let's bring her and we're gonna be talking to 47 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:55,080 Speaker 1: Lana Swartz. She's an assistant professor in the Department of 48 00:02:55,160 --> 00:03:07,919 Speaker 1: Media Studies at the University of Virginia, Landa. Thank you 49 00:03:08,040 --> 00:03:11,320 Speaker 1: very much for joining us, Thanks for having me. Let's 50 00:03:11,320 --> 00:03:13,120 Speaker 1: just get in with the first question, in which Tracy 51 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:18,120 Speaker 1: already hinted at. But why is the study of money 52 00:03:18,720 --> 00:03:23,040 Speaker 1: something that makes sense within the context of the Department 53 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:26,520 Speaker 1: of Media Studies at the University of Virginia. Well, I 54 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:29,160 Speaker 1: think there's two ways to answer that. One is historical 55 00:03:29,480 --> 00:03:34,119 Speaker 1: and one is present oriented. So historically, if you look 56 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:37,240 Speaker 1: at what has counted as money, what we've used to 57 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:40,960 Speaker 1: do money, it's always been the kinds of things, the 58 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:43,800 Speaker 1: kinds of technologies, the kinds of forms that we have 59 00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:47,520 Speaker 1: used to do, other kinds of communication, other kinds of media. So, 60 00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:51,600 Speaker 1: you know, scholars, communication scholars and historians. And historians have 61 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:55,600 Speaker 1: described how the printing press was really this important media 62 00:03:55,640 --> 00:03:59,400 Speaker 1: and communication technology that allowed for the consolidation of the 63 00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:03,040 Speaker 1: nation's state and this sort of um economic imaginary the 64 00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:06,320 Speaker 1: size of a of a nation. And along the same 65 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:08,400 Speaker 1: lines as the you know, the rise of the newspapers 66 00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:09,920 Speaker 1: and the rise of the printing press, we have the 67 00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:14,080 Speaker 1: rise of paper currency. UM. So what is what is 68 00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:18,240 Speaker 1: more media than paper? Of course, paper currency has all 69 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:22,679 Speaker 1: of these images and icons of our kind of national 70 00:04:22,839 --> 00:04:25,760 Speaker 1: imaginaries what we want to you know, what we want 71 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:30,360 Speaker 1: to remember historically as our you know, the character, the branding, 72 00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:32,760 Speaker 1: if you will, of our country. And it also kind 73 00:04:32,760 --> 00:04:36,160 Speaker 1: of created this common economic language. As one of my colleagues, 74 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:40,000 Speaker 1: Eric helener Um, who's a Canadian media scholar, has described 75 00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:43,680 Speaker 1: um for people to speculate, so you you knew you 76 00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:46,760 Speaker 1: were a member of the same nation, the same polity, 77 00:04:46,839 --> 00:04:50,240 Speaker 1: if you could transact easily using the same currency that 78 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:54,880 Speaker 1: everyone recognized as as valuable UM. So in this way, 79 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:59,160 Speaker 1: it was sort of this public infrastructure that that lubricated 80 00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:03,760 Speaker 1: the economy um for citizens of a given territory. But 81 00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:06,800 Speaker 1: then if you move forward and see that, you know, 82 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:10,960 Speaker 1: Western Union and telegraphy UM. Today we we really only 83 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:14,839 Speaker 1: think of telegraphy as something for money transfers, UM. And 84 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:17,760 Speaker 1: of course they don't use telegraphy anymore, but Western Union 85 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:23,799 Speaker 1: the company, and then looking into the nineties, seventies, eighties, 86 00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:27,360 Speaker 1: and then into the nineties, we have the very same technology, 87 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:30,880 Speaker 1: the same kinds of computers that were used to build 88 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:35,839 Speaker 1: what became the Internet, UM used to build the Visa 89 00:05:35,880 --> 00:05:40,040 Speaker 1: master card network. So the technologies of communication and media 90 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:44,360 Speaker 1: and information exchange are the very same technologies of financial 91 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:47,640 Speaker 1: exchange and money. And we can see the same thing 92 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:51,760 Speaker 1: with cell phones and UM. You know, every social media 93 00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:56,200 Speaker 1: company from Facebook to Google is trying to introduce their 94 00:05:56,240 --> 00:05:59,160 Speaker 1: own payment systems. So at every step of the way 95 00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:03,440 Speaker 1: Historic Lee and into the future, we have the stuff 96 00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:06,240 Speaker 1: of money being the very same as the stuff of 97 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:11,919 Speaker 1: media and communication. So I find this notion of money 98 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:16,520 Speaker 1: and payment being linked to social identity really really fascinating. 99 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:19,560 Speaker 1: And you summed it up enormously well just then. But 100 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:23,880 Speaker 1: Joe actually sent me a paper that you have done 101 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:27,360 Speaker 1: on a specific example of how this kind of worked, 102 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:31,200 Speaker 1: and it has to do with the Diners Club card. 103 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:33,560 Speaker 1: Can you maybe dig into that one a little bit 104 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:38,000 Speaker 1: for us sure. So as um, some people may know 105 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:41,880 Speaker 1: diners Club was the first credit card. Well that's actually 106 00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:44,760 Speaker 1: a misnomer. It was actually a charge card because it 107 00:06:44,839 --> 00:06:49,520 Speaker 1: wasn't tied to a store of rotating credit. Instead, it 108 00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:50,920 Speaker 1: was you know, you got a bill at the end 109 00:06:50,920 --> 00:06:53,039 Speaker 1: of every month and you paid off the bill. Um. 110 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:58,799 Speaker 1: But it was the first third party, universal private payment company. 111 00:06:59,200 --> 00:07:04,040 Speaker 1: So of course, you know, uh, gas companies and department 112 00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:07,800 Speaker 1: stores and the like hadlong extended credit to regular customers, 113 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:10,920 Speaker 1: but the Diners Club was the first company that allowed 114 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:13,880 Speaker 1: you to take a card, take it to any number 115 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:17,920 Speaker 1: of businesses that accepted the diners Club card, and make 116 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:21,840 Speaker 1: a payment there. This emerged at the in the nineteen fifties, 117 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:25,080 Speaker 1: a time when we had the emergence of the highway 118 00:07:25,080 --> 00:07:29,200 Speaker 1: system in the United States, democratized jet travel, the rise 119 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:31,880 Speaker 1: of the corporation, and therefore the business trip and the 120 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:35,520 Speaker 1: business traveler. Um. But the U S making system was 121 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:40,880 Speaker 1: relatively provincial, so you know, the local banks banks were 122 00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:43,600 Speaker 1: really mostly local. I mean at this point, Bank of 123 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:49,280 Speaker 1: America was a relatively regional bank in northern California. UM. 124 00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:53,640 Speaker 1: So it was kind of hard to travel without massive 125 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:57,600 Speaker 1: amounts of cash um. Travelers checks were available, but they 126 00:07:57,640 --> 00:08:00,520 Speaker 1: weren't really accepted and you know, out of the way 127 00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:03,840 Speaker 1: places off the highway, in the middle of the country. Um. 128 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:07,320 Speaker 1: And so there were references and newspapers at the time 129 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:10,880 Speaker 1: you know that said things like, when it comes to payments, 130 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:14,480 Speaker 1: the person who needs to the traveler, the person who 131 00:08:14,520 --> 00:08:18,560 Speaker 1: who needs help the most is often stranded. UM. So 132 00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:23,560 Speaker 1: diners Club became this way for people to move as 133 00:08:23,640 --> 00:08:26,200 Speaker 1: fast and as far, or rather for people's money to 134 00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:28,680 Speaker 1: move as fast and as far as they did. And 135 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:32,240 Speaker 1: this I argue that because you received a bill at 136 00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:35,280 Speaker 1: the end of every month, which is commonly referred to 137 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:39,320 Speaker 1: as kind of country club style billing, diners Club created 138 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:42,680 Speaker 1: this club that was networked and sort of everywhere and 139 00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:47,520 Speaker 1: nowhere and and invisible. So you get diners Club advertisements 140 00:08:47,520 --> 00:08:50,200 Speaker 1: at the time that say things like, um, you know 141 00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:54,280 Speaker 1: you have your credit is good. Anywhere diners Club is accepted, 142 00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:57,319 Speaker 1: you have a friend. Anywhere diners Club is accepted, people 143 00:08:57,320 --> 00:09:01,560 Speaker 1: will know you whether you're um, you know in the 144 00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:06,000 Speaker 1: backwoods of of Indiana or um, New York City the 145 00:09:06,040 --> 00:09:07,760 Speaker 1: first time you've ever been there. As long as you 146 00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:10,200 Speaker 1: carry your diners Club with you, people know you belong. 147 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:13,280 Speaker 1: So I find this really I'm kind of I love 148 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:15,199 Speaker 1: that we're talking about the diners Club itself because I 149 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:20,520 Speaker 1: remember going to restaurants as a kid growing up in 150 00:09:20,559 --> 00:09:23,520 Speaker 1: the eighties, and you know, you'd see those signs of 151 00:09:23,559 --> 00:09:28,959 Speaker 1: which cards restaurants UM would accept, and they're like Visa card, MasterCard, 152 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:32,040 Speaker 1: American Express, and usually diners Club was on there. But 153 00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:34,800 Speaker 1: I never like knew anyone who had one, and I 154 00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:36,640 Speaker 1: always sort of just had this I didn't know what 155 00:09:36,679 --> 00:09:38,560 Speaker 1: it was, but I had this intuition that maybe it 156 00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:41,320 Speaker 1: was a thing back in the day and that it 157 00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:44,199 Speaker 1: was sort of this like you know, fading and relevant. E. 158 00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:48,000 Speaker 1: They still exist, right, Yeah, they do, UM, I mean 159 00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:51,000 Speaker 1: not exactly in the same form. So by the end 160 00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:55,360 Speaker 1: of the seventies, diners Club really faced uh competition on 161 00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:58,120 Speaker 1: the high end from American Express UM and then sort 162 00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:01,840 Speaker 1: of on the democratize or you know, mass appeal and 163 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:06,400 Speaker 1: by UM Bank issued Visa Master Club cards, which UM 164 00:10:06,559 --> 00:10:09,720 Speaker 1: you know bank diners Club came out first, but they 165 00:10:09,760 --> 00:10:13,400 Speaker 1: didn't really perfect it, either at the luxury level or 166 00:10:13,679 --> 00:10:17,080 Speaker 1: at kind of getting it out to everyone UM who 167 00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:19,480 Speaker 1: maybe wasn't able to pay off their bills at the 168 00:10:19,559 --> 00:10:23,160 Speaker 1: end of every month, UM. And then so by the seventies, 169 00:10:23,520 --> 00:10:27,000 Speaker 1: they're the end of the seventies, their business really had waned, 170 00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:31,120 Speaker 1: and throughout the eighties and nineties and even more recently 171 00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:33,960 Speaker 1: they're the brand has gone through a variety of different 172 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:37,880 Speaker 1: acquisitions by City Bank and then by Discover, and they 173 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:42,000 Speaker 1: do have a really interesting international program where there's local 174 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:46,480 Speaker 1: franchises across the globe in various countries that are local 175 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:51,080 Speaker 1: to various countries, UM. But that and so when Discover 176 00:10:51,160 --> 00:10:53,880 Speaker 1: acquired them most recently, they really acquired them for that 177 00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:58,559 Speaker 1: international network. Although the Discover brand and the diners Club 178 00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:02,000 Speaker 1: brand haven't fully merged, so they do exist, but it 179 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:05,319 Speaker 1: isn't really it's mostly just as the brand not really 180 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:09,480 Speaker 1: that the same company or the same technology as in 181 00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:13,880 Speaker 1: the fifties and sixties. So just going back to the 182 00:11:13,920 --> 00:11:17,440 Speaker 1: heyday of UM diners Club, which I guess was the 183 00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:20,160 Speaker 1: fifties and sixties, you know, you get this kind of 184 00:11:20,280 --> 00:11:24,199 Speaker 1: vision in your head of like mad men style businessmen 185 00:11:24,559 --> 00:11:28,440 Speaker 1: using their cards to expense boozy lunches and that sort 186 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:31,360 Speaker 1: of thing, and I guess, uh, that's that's kind of 187 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:34,240 Speaker 1: the image that they were going for. But you talk 188 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:38,000 Speaker 1: in some of your research about the downsides of the 189 00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:41,640 Speaker 1: Diners Club for one particular demographic, and the notion that 190 00:11:41,679 --> 00:11:49,600 Speaker 1: it actually reinforced some negative stereotypes for women. Basically, yeah, well, actually, 191 00:11:49,640 --> 00:11:54,240 Speaker 1: I mean that kind of cuts both ways for women, because, um, 192 00:11:54,280 --> 00:11:58,800 Speaker 1: you know, in this boozy sixties mad men environment, there 193 00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:02,160 Speaker 1: were the kind of Peggy Olsen's and and I guess 194 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:05,200 Speaker 1: later season Jones trying to make their way in this 195 00:12:05,559 --> 00:12:10,720 Speaker 1: man's world. And there are um numerous accounts in the 196 00:12:10,760 --> 00:12:14,000 Speaker 1: press at the time, in columns with names you know. 197 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:16,600 Speaker 1: The column title is like white Collar Girl, which gives 198 00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:19,560 Speaker 1: career advice to this kind of first generation of of 199 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:24,280 Speaker 1: working women. Um, and they give advice like and this 200 00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:27,240 Speaker 1: actually comes from Helen Gurley Brown from before she went 201 00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:30,640 Speaker 1: on to be the editor of Cosmopolitan. She said something 202 00:12:30,679 --> 00:12:35,400 Speaker 1: like bosses are miserable misers when it comes to raises, 203 00:12:35,679 --> 00:12:39,480 Speaker 1: but indulgent sugar daddies. And I'm making quote fingers here, 204 00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:42,760 Speaker 1: indulgent sugar daddies when it comes to expenses. So be 205 00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:45,880 Speaker 1: sure to make ample use of your Diners Club card 206 00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:49,920 Speaker 1: to get by. So you can imagine, you know, women, 207 00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:53,160 Speaker 1: working women going and taking their Diners Club card down 208 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:56,400 Speaker 1: to you know, Bloomingdale's and getting lunch at the Bloomingdale's 209 00:12:56,400 --> 00:13:00,480 Speaker 1: cafe because that's the only place that accepts Diners Club um, 210 00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:03,280 Speaker 1: and that where they can just get a quick bite 211 00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:05,840 Speaker 1: to eat so um, and then just kind of writing 212 00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:08,920 Speaker 1: it off on the boss looking the other way. Um. 213 00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:13,040 Speaker 1: And similarly, there is another tale from a similar column 214 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:17,160 Speaker 1: of a woman, a young working woman, taking her a 215 00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:20,720 Speaker 1: male client out to lunch. And of course, with business etiquette, 216 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:24,360 Speaker 1: the woman is or the vendor is supposed to pay 217 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:27,319 Speaker 1: for the lunch um for the client. But if it's 218 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:30,280 Speaker 1: a young woman taking an older male out to lunch, 219 00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:35,520 Speaker 1: that may produce awkwardness. Um, particularly in the sixties, um, 220 00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:39,720 Speaker 1: maybe even today. And so, but the column advised the 221 00:13:39,760 --> 00:13:42,720 Speaker 1: young woman to be sure to use her Dinners Club 222 00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:46,559 Speaker 1: card because then it looks like her boss is taking 223 00:13:46,679 --> 00:13:49,160 Speaker 1: the vendor out to lunch and she can sort of say, oh, 224 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:52,560 Speaker 1: it's it's on it's on the company, not on me 225 00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:55,679 Speaker 1: as an individual. So I think that's so interesting because 226 00:13:55,679 --> 00:13:59,280 Speaker 1: it shows that there's so much social meaning and protocol 227 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:02,680 Speaker 1: and manner just packed into how we pay for something, 228 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:05,079 Speaker 1: and that really reflects the kind of larger issues of 229 00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:09,000 Speaker 1: the moment. In terms of the other side, Um, every 230 00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:14,600 Speaker 1: diners club application in that period had the option to check, 231 00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:17,560 Speaker 1: um whether or not you want your bill sent to 232 00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:19,960 Speaker 1: your office or to your home, or if you want 233 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:23,520 Speaker 1: to have two separate accounts, one bill that goes to 234 00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:25,440 Speaker 1: your office and one bill that goes to your home. 235 00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:28,360 Speaker 1: So it really kind of shows this. And again we 236 00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:31,000 Speaker 1: can go back to think about you know, mad men 237 00:14:31,240 --> 00:14:34,040 Speaker 1: for uh, you know, to kind of illuminate what this 238 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:36,800 Speaker 1: might have been like. But it it allowed men who 239 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:40,200 Speaker 1: worked in the city and had homes and families in 240 00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:45,920 Speaker 1: the suburbs to further compartmentalize the distinctions between these two places, 241 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:48,760 Speaker 1: to have one bill with one set of expenses that 242 00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:51,320 Speaker 1: got delivered to the house and another bill with another 243 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:54,320 Speaker 1: set of expenses that kind of stayed in the city. Um. 244 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:57,360 Speaker 1: So you know, this this ability to kind of further 245 00:14:57,440 --> 00:15:01,280 Speaker 1: disability to sort of live separate lives. So it seems 246 00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:04,960 Speaker 1: to me there's listening to that. It's fascinating. There's like 247 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:08,680 Speaker 1: a ton to unpack. One of the things that strikes 248 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:14,280 Speaker 1: me is that this example immediately illuminates this idea and 249 00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:16,640 Speaker 1: you do you said it directly that not all payment 250 00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:21,240 Speaker 1: is the same. So paying something by cash fundamentally is 251 00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:24,320 Speaker 1: different than paying something by card, whether it's a credit 252 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:26,880 Speaker 1: card or a charge card, it has a different sort 253 00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:30,120 Speaker 1: of It ends up structuring society differently, even we sort 254 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:32,120 Speaker 1: of we might think of them as sort of fungible 255 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:36,200 Speaker 1: alternative payment methods, but they really do have different ordering effects. 256 00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:38,520 Speaker 1: And then sort of thinking about this, like from the 257 00:15:38,560 --> 00:15:42,720 Speaker 1: media perspective, I always think, you know, with new media technologies, 258 00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:47,960 Speaker 1: how often they end up creating things that are almost 259 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:50,720 Speaker 1: exactly the opposite of what they went for. So, you know, 260 00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:54,000 Speaker 1: I used to Twitter is like this cacophonous mess of 261 00:15:54,040 --> 00:15:56,600 Speaker 1: people yelling, and what started off as like a place 262 00:15:56,600 --> 00:16:01,040 Speaker 1: to have an interesting communication. Facebook just seems like everybody 263 00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:04,160 Speaker 1: comes to like hate their friends and families, even though 264 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:07,440 Speaker 1: it's on Facebook, even though it was a sort of 265 00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:10,360 Speaker 1: ostensibly intended to be a place where people could gather 266 00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:13,880 Speaker 1: these things, the human that we create, these networks that 267 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:18,160 Speaker 1: we create, whether they're a payment system or more straightforward 268 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:21,720 Speaker 1: media system, we might envision them to solve one thing, 269 00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:24,800 Speaker 1: but then they turned back on us to recreate the 270 00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:29,560 Speaker 1: social order. Oh absolutely, I agree, And um, we're certainly 271 00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:33,560 Speaker 1: seeing that with with the emergence of new payment systems. UM. 272 00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:36,240 Speaker 1: You know I I am a professor and most of 273 00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:40,960 Speaker 1: my students are under twenty three, and every single one 274 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:44,480 Speaker 1: of them uses Venmo, and Venmo is a huge part 275 00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:48,600 Speaker 1: of of their everyday financial lives. And UM. I read 276 00:16:48,640 --> 00:16:51,160 Speaker 1: a report once that almost everyone under twenty five uses 277 00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:54,440 Speaker 1: venmo and almost everyone over forty five has never heard 278 00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:57,760 Speaker 1: of venmo. So because of that, I'll explain quickly what 279 00:16:57,840 --> 00:17:02,680 Speaker 1: venmo is. UM, which is a peer to peer payment 280 00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:07,359 Speaker 1: UM payment system that's owned by Braintree, which is owned 281 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:10,600 Speaker 1: by PayPal, so ultimately it's owned by pain Pal. UM 282 00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:15,760 Speaker 1: that allows you to pay your friends directly from your 283 00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:19,960 Speaker 1: debit account, so it it tries to avoid entering the 284 00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:23,680 Speaker 1: credit card network to avoid paying fees, and just UM 285 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:27,000 Speaker 1: uses the Automated Clearinghouse, which is a low fee system 286 00:17:27,080 --> 00:17:30,520 Speaker 1: partially publicly administered in the US. But that's longer story. 287 00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:34,000 Speaker 1: The main social point here is that it creates a 288 00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:38,480 Speaker 1: social feed of all your payments between UM friends. So 289 00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:42,720 Speaker 1: if I say, send a message to Tracy and say 290 00:17:42,760 --> 00:17:46,800 Speaker 1: thanks for you know, Margarita's last night with some drink emojis, 291 00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:49,840 Speaker 1: and we're friends with Joe, then Joe can see that um, 292 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:53,080 Speaker 1: we've hung out without him and might feel some feelings 293 00:17:53,119 --> 00:17:57,520 Speaker 1: of fomo um or or other things. So, you know, 294 00:17:57,560 --> 00:18:00,400 Speaker 1: there are stories of people observing breakups but tween their 295 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:04,520 Speaker 1: friends over Venmo, where people are um, you know, charging 296 00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:08,400 Speaker 1: invoicing their X for half a record collection or half 297 00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:10,879 Speaker 1: a couch or that sort of thing. There are stories 298 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:15,520 Speaker 1: of two people going on dates and um, and then 299 00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:17,919 Speaker 1: at the end of the date doesn't really end the 300 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:21,679 Speaker 1: way the person who paid for the date expects. So 301 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:23,760 Speaker 1: the next morning, the other person wakes up and is 302 00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:27,320 Speaker 1: invoiced for her half of the meal. Um. And it's 303 00:18:27,359 --> 00:18:32,280 Speaker 1: creating all kinds of new social awkwardness, all kinds of 304 00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:36,080 Speaker 1: new um meanings of what counts as polite on Venmo, 305 00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:41,280 Speaker 1: what counts as impolite is Venmo, all kinds of surprising reveals, 306 00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:45,480 Speaker 1: like you know, someone's mother gives them money every every 307 00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:48,440 Speaker 1: week and is essentially keeping them afloat despite the fact 308 00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:52,399 Speaker 1: that it seems like they're very successful independently. Um. So 309 00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:55,480 Speaker 1: I'm actually teaching a class this semester that looks at 310 00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:58,440 Speaker 1: the history and theory of media technology of money technologies 311 00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:01,160 Speaker 1: as they relate to meeting technologies, but as a kind 312 00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:05,360 Speaker 1: of original research UM component. We're going to be gathering 313 00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:09,119 Speaker 1: tales of venmo and trying to see how venmo is 314 00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:14,520 Speaker 1: reshaping friendships, reshaping romantic relationships, UM, and reshaping how people 315 00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:17,000 Speaker 1: think about how they do money. So I'll definitely keep 316 00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:20,480 Speaker 1: you updated as that class progresses. I love the Venmo 317 00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:24,639 Speaker 1: example just because it seems like it really makes clear 318 00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:26,840 Speaker 1: what was only implied in the sense that money has 319 00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:30,520 Speaker 1: always been a social network of sort. But but now 320 00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:34,520 Speaker 1: now it's unambiguous because if you're putting in emojis with 321 00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:37,200 Speaker 1: the messages no one. I'm so glad to get that 322 00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:40,800 Speaker 1: way because so often my students, who are you know, 323 00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:44,520 Speaker 1: the biggest users of venmo who UM, feel sort of 324 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:47,840 Speaker 1: bad about it, and they see it as the economic 325 00:19:48,359 --> 00:19:52,359 Speaker 1: invading their social life. But I see it, just as 326 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:55,520 Speaker 1: you said, as the sort of economic being revealed to 327 00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:58,800 Speaker 1: have always been social. Another thing we talked about in 328 00:19:58,920 --> 00:20:01,200 Speaker 1: our classes, we think about, all right, well, if we 329 00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:05,440 Speaker 1: feel uncomfortable with the economic being made so manifest in 330 00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:07,800 Speaker 1: our social life, are there other ways that we could 331 00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:13,040 Speaker 1: design money technology to allow for a little bit more 332 00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:17,400 Speaker 1: fuzzy areas, So instead of of of invoicing your friend 333 00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:20,000 Speaker 1: for exactly half half a meal at the end of 334 00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:22,680 Speaker 1: the night. Um, could you say it? Could? Could we 335 00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:25,679 Speaker 1: create a money app that allows us to buy rounds, 336 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:28,320 Speaker 1: for example, So it's not down to the penny, it's 337 00:20:28,359 --> 00:20:31,119 Speaker 1: down to the kind of granularity of like a drink, 338 00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:33,760 Speaker 1: so oh sure, I'll buy you a drink later, um, 339 00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:37,040 Speaker 1: and then or or creating apps that allow for the 340 00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:39,000 Speaker 1: economic practice of its sort of all coming out in 341 00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:41,960 Speaker 1: the wash at the end. Um and And one of 342 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:43,960 Speaker 1: the things I hope my students really think about, and 343 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:47,080 Speaker 1: I hope also that I expressed through my through my research, 344 00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:50,920 Speaker 1: is that money is something that we can design. Money 345 00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:54,000 Speaker 1: is something that we can make decisions about, for um, 346 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:56,840 Speaker 1: how we want it to play out in our social lives. 347 00:20:57,720 --> 00:21:00,119 Speaker 1: So one of the big stories in both money and 348 00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:03,440 Speaker 1: payments over the past five years now has really been 349 00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:07,440 Speaker 1: bitcoin and the rise of cryptocurrencies. I'm just wondering, when 350 00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:12,760 Speaker 1: you contrast something like bitcoin with something like venmo, what 351 00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:18,119 Speaker 1: does bitcoin say about social identity or social networks and 352 00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:20,440 Speaker 1: the fact that a lot of people want to make 353 00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:25,040 Speaker 1: anonymous payments and they want the exact opposite of what 354 00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:29,720 Speaker 1: Venmo kind of provides. Mm hmm, Yeah, I mean I've 355 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:33,760 Speaker 1: I've been paying attention to bitcoin for a long time, 356 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:37,200 Speaker 1: and it's certainly been a wild ride and has gone 357 00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:42,280 Speaker 1: through many different um iterations and phases and and had 358 00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:44,959 Speaker 1: different waves of people interested in it for different reasons. 359 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:47,400 Speaker 1: Whether it was sort of the first wave of people 360 00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:51,000 Speaker 1: who were really invested in a kind of UM surveillance 361 00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:54,240 Speaker 1: free payment app or you know, not app but payment 362 00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:58,359 Speaker 1: UM technology, and then people who were mostly interested in 363 00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:00,240 Speaker 1: it as a kind of like pump and dump get 364 00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:03,320 Speaker 1: rich quick thing, and people who are mostly interested in 365 00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:05,800 Speaker 1: it as an extra national currency that allowed them to 366 00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:11,920 Speaker 1: express their sort of UM libertarian UH ideology. And so 367 00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:14,399 Speaker 1: it's interesting to me that bitcoin is kind of this 368 00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:18,520 Speaker 1: it's it really is whatever people want it to be. 369 00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:20,960 Speaker 1: I don't know. In Harry Potter we talked about, you know, 370 00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:23,520 Speaker 1: there's like the room of requirement, which is where you 371 00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:25,600 Speaker 1: go into room and it's whatever you need is there. 372 00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:28,520 Speaker 1: And I kind of think of of bitcoin as being 373 00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:31,960 Speaker 1: sort of that. It's it's all. It's very much in 374 00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:34,600 Speaker 1: the eye of the beholder UM. And it's been very 375 00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:38,879 Speaker 1: interesting to watch how those different contingencies have shaped bitcoin 376 00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:41,840 Speaker 1: UM in different ways, for better or worse. So UM 377 00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:47,919 Speaker 1: at this point it's pretty hard to make a truly private, um, 378 00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:53,199 Speaker 1: unsurveilled payment, everyday payment using bitcoin, but it is pretty 379 00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:57,399 Speaker 1: easy to you know, do trades, try to engage in 380 00:22:57,440 --> 00:23:00,520 Speaker 1: some bitcoin arbitrage, maybe make a little money. UM. So 381 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:05,320 Speaker 1: I kind of would think that the the Unfortunately, I think, um, 382 00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:08,240 Speaker 1: the payment aspect of bitcoin has sort of gone by 383 00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:12,200 Speaker 1: the wayside UM. But I do think that if we 384 00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:18,480 Speaker 1: imagine state currency as one of the primary um apparatus 385 00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:21,840 Speaker 1: of the nation state, that uh it's and and sort 386 00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:25,640 Speaker 1: of the institutions of society, that it certainly is resonant 387 00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:30,440 Speaker 1: with many other events, larger cultural events, UM. That people 388 00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:33,760 Speaker 1: are are sort of interested in in alternatives or or 389 00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:39,680 Speaker 1: interested in um, you know, rethinking institutions, or have perhaps 390 00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:43,159 Speaker 1: lost trust in in some of these institutions. I actually 391 00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:46,359 Speaker 1: think that bitcoin is one of the least interesting developments 392 00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:49,399 Speaker 1: in money. UM. You know, there's far more people using 393 00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:52,960 Speaker 1: Venmo than there are using bitcoin. UM. There's far more 394 00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:57,000 Speaker 1: people using frequent flyer miles, which I would argue are 395 00:23:57,080 --> 00:24:01,600 Speaker 1: a private currency themselves, that that open up, um, you know, 396 00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:05,959 Speaker 1: private parts of the airport and create stratified experiences. I mean, 397 00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:10,840 Speaker 1: if I'm a if I use my If I use 398 00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:13,440 Speaker 1: my Star Wars points UM when I travel, I have 399 00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:16,200 Speaker 1: a very different experience then then if I just pay cash. 400 00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:20,320 Speaker 1: So I kind of would imagine if we're if I'm 401 00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:22,680 Speaker 1: imagining a science fiction scenario, and I know this is 402 00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:25,679 Speaker 1: very science fiction, um, where there's no more nation states 403 00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:29,240 Speaker 1: and we all live in these sort of you know, um, 404 00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:33,280 Speaker 1: global tribes. I would almost imagine those tribes being dictated 405 00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:36,600 Speaker 1: by like star Wood rather than say something like bit Boy. 406 00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:39,119 Speaker 1: And if we're going to think about what the economic 407 00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:42,720 Speaker 1: um determinants of those it does seem like a Facebook 408 00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:45,440 Speaker 1: wanted to launch its own currency, we would probably all 409 00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:48,440 Speaker 1: have to use that. I want to uh sort of 410 00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:51,320 Speaker 1: wrap up going back to what we're talking about a 411 00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:54,240 Speaker 1: little bit in the beginning about where, you know, in 412 00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:58,200 Speaker 1: what field should the study of money be situated, And 413 00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:02,280 Speaker 1: you're in the media studies apartment, um, other people have 414 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:05,320 Speaker 1: talked about money within the context of media. Last year 415 00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:08,280 Speaker 1: I read A. McLuhan's book Understanding Media, and he has 416 00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:12,320 Speaker 1: a chapter talking about media alongside you know, TV and 417 00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:17,399 Speaker 1: radio and everything else. Is there more inquiry coming to 418 00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:22,000 Speaker 1: you from people in finance in economics thinking about these 419 00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:26,119 Speaker 1: questions today? Realizing that the traditional people who study this 420 00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:29,480 Speaker 1: stuff don't really have the answers, and they need to 421 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:34,360 Speaker 1: hear the perspective of people in anthropology or media studies 422 00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:38,480 Speaker 1: or sociology to actually understand more what money is. I 423 00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:42,760 Speaker 1: I think, you know, I definitely have people in finance 424 00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:45,920 Speaker 1: who really want you get excited to talk about the 425 00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:49,240 Speaker 1: history and theory of money, and are are really interesting 426 00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:52,000 Speaker 1: and chatting. And then of course there are others for 427 00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:54,159 Speaker 1: whom you know, if you tell them, you know, not 428 00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:56,840 Speaker 1: all payments the same, not all money is fungible. We 429 00:25:56,880 --> 00:25:59,359 Speaker 1: have to understand the social components that sort of just 430 00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:03,360 Speaker 1: makes things too messy, and um, they're they're less interested 431 00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:07,480 Speaker 1: in that. But I do think that as um, you know, 432 00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:10,240 Speaker 1: with the rise of what we've begun to call fintech 433 00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:12,920 Speaker 1: and the kind of shift of um, the kind of 434 00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:15,880 Speaker 1: excitement in the financial sector being from kind of old 435 00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:19,960 Speaker 1: school Wall Street to kind of uh, new school Silicon Valley, 436 00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:22,800 Speaker 1: even if it winds up not being you know, as 437 00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:26,200 Speaker 1: radically disruptive as as some players would like to imagine. 438 00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:31,480 Speaker 1: I think there are people excited about rethinking what money 439 00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:35,240 Speaker 1: has been and what it could be. UM, And I 440 00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:40,080 Speaker 1: actually do have a recent book out UM, an edited 441 00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:41,960 Speaker 1: collection that's out from M I T Press that my 442 00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:45,600 Speaker 1: colleague Bill Maher and I edited, and it's a collection 443 00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:49,000 Speaker 1: of just short essays about two thousand words each with 444 00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:52,760 Speaker 1: lots of pictures that is about kind of forgotten or 445 00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:58,480 Speaker 1: unusually interesting money stuff. So there's a chapter on doge coin, 446 00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:02,440 Speaker 1: which is sort of a key being based cryptocurrency. UM. 447 00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:04,800 Speaker 1: There's a chapter on the history of a t M S. 448 00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:08,000 Speaker 1: There's a chapter on the signature pad UM and people 449 00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:11,440 Speaker 1: who draw art instead of signing their signature. There's a 450 00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:15,320 Speaker 1: chapter on how Benjamin Franklin, when he was imagining what 451 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:19,520 Speaker 1: the currency system should be for the United States, UM 452 00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:22,719 Speaker 1: thought that leaf prints, so you know, prints of actual 453 00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:27,440 Speaker 1: leaves would be one both the best anti counterfeiting measure 454 00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:31,000 Speaker 1: because all leaves are unique and leaves are destroyed in 455 00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:34,240 Speaker 1: the process of being transformed into prints UM, but to 456 00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:37,840 Speaker 1: would most fully represent sort of the bounty of of 457 00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:42,000 Speaker 1: of America UM. And And we have received quite a 458 00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:45,040 Speaker 1: bit of interest from folks in industry and from outside 459 00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:49,000 Speaker 1: academia in that book. So I'm hopeful, Joe, I think 460 00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:51,760 Speaker 1: I know what I'm gonna get you for Christmas. You 461 00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:54,600 Speaker 1: can't get it for me because I Lana already sent 462 00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:56,600 Speaker 1: me a copy of the book, and I've been reading 463 00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:59,920 Speaker 1: it and I highly recommended. I've been flipping through reading 464 00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:04,520 Speaker 1: chapters here and there. So Rebecca Spang, writing in the 465 00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:07,680 Speaker 1: Financial Times actually called it beach reading. So that was 466 00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:11,560 Speaker 1: Rebecca san we had, who was an earlier guest of 467 00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:15,320 Speaker 1: Odd Lots talking about the money in the French Revolution. 468 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:17,960 Speaker 1: Uh No, it's a great book. And Lana, it was 469 00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:21,480 Speaker 1: fantastic talking to you. Your work is very interesting and 470 00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:35,040 Speaker 1: I really appreciate you coming up. Thank you so much so, Tracy, 471 00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:38,760 Speaker 1: I thought that was a really interesting conversation. I really 472 00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:44,520 Speaker 1: liked what Laana said at the end about um finn, 473 00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:48,040 Speaker 1: the sort of wave of fintech and how that's prompting 474 00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:51,920 Speaker 1: this bigger discussion about how money can be shaped. It 475 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:55,080 Speaker 1: feels like people took for granted for a long time 476 00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:57,320 Speaker 1: how money worked and didn't really think about it. But 477 00:28:57,440 --> 00:28:59,800 Speaker 1: it doesn't really seem like we have that choice anymore. 478 00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:02,640 Speaker 1: It's seems like to move forward we actually have to 479 00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:07,720 Speaker 1: start understanding some of these questions better. Yeah, and not 480 00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:10,720 Speaker 1: just how money can be shaped in the sense of, 481 00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:13,280 Speaker 1: you know, how it works and what exactly it accomplishes. 482 00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:17,040 Speaker 1: But also this idea of the way money is designed 483 00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:22,320 Speaker 1: having certain effects, and that certain payment or credit systems 484 00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:26,200 Speaker 1: can have more of a negative effect on certain demographics 485 00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:29,680 Speaker 1: and others can have more of a positive effect. And 486 00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:32,160 Speaker 1: I mean, Joe, I've heard it both ways from the 487 00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:35,040 Speaker 1: fintech guys. You know. I've had discussions with fintech people 488 00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:38,120 Speaker 1: where they say, oh, we're going to use big data. 489 00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:41,560 Speaker 1: We're gonna monitor your heart rate when you make a 490 00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:44,239 Speaker 1: payment or when you ask for a loan, and if 491 00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:46,880 Speaker 1: it's really really fast, then we know that you're nervous 492 00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:48,920 Speaker 1: about it, and so we won't extend you credit. But 493 00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:51,360 Speaker 1: if you have a slow heart rate, it means that 494 00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:53,720 Speaker 1: you're calm about the whole thing, and then you'll get alan. 495 00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:57,480 Speaker 1: And they say that demonstrates fairness. But a lot of 496 00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:01,160 Speaker 1: people just find some of the stuff creepy. Oh I'd 497 00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:05,520 Speaker 1: never heard that before, but that is both fascinating and creepy. 498 00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:08,400 Speaker 1: And I think that, um, you know, probably all anyone 499 00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:10,880 Speaker 1: involved in this space should go read, you know, like 500 00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:14,160 Speaker 1: all there's so many fascinating dimensions. Just going back to 501 00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:18,720 Speaker 1: the diners Club examples of unforeseen things that happened because 502 00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:22,440 Speaker 1: of the new system, and so obviously Lana has talked 503 00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:25,720 Speaker 1: about the sort of disparate gender impact, some of it 504 00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:28,000 Speaker 1: good for women, some of it not good. But I 505 00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:31,080 Speaker 1: all of it sort of unexpected. And I think with 506 00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:34,680 Speaker 1: any new technology, you know, you hear about all these 507 00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:38,520 Speaker 1: good things that are going to come about inclusion, but 508 00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:41,920 Speaker 1: I just think they're gonna be so many unforeseen things 509 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:44,840 Speaker 1: that sort of reshaped the way we behave in society 510 00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:48,600 Speaker 1: that that will make it all very interesting. Yeah, for sure? 511 00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:52,760 Speaker 1: Shall we shall we wrap it up there? All right? Well, 512 00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:56,400 Speaker 1: this has been another episode of the Odd Lots Podcast. 513 00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:59,160 Speaker 1: I'm Joe Wisenhal. You could follow me on Twitter at 514 00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:02,360 Speaker 1: the Stalwart, and I'm Tracy Alloway. I'm on Twitter at 515 00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:06,560 Speaker 1: Tracy Alloway. And you can find Lana Swartz on Twitter 516 00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:11,760 Speaker 1: at Laana Laana and follow our producer Sarah Patterson Sarah 517 00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:12,880 Speaker 1: patt with two Teas