WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 32 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:02.680 Hey everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let 0:00:02.720 --> 0:00:06.359 you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode 0:00:06.480 --> 0:00:09.600 of the week that just happened is here in one 0:00:09.680 --> 0:00:13.440 convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 0:00:13.480 --> 0:00:15.960 listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 0:00:16.000 --> 0:00:17.919 you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:17.960 --> 0:00:20.079 there's gotta be nothing new here for you, but you 0:00:20.160 --> 0:00:27.920 can make your own decisions. Hey, everybody, this is it 0:00:28.000 --> 0:00:30.360 could happen here. I am Robert Evans. This is a 0:00:30.400 --> 0:00:32.720 podcast about things falling apart and sometimes how to put 0:00:32.800 --> 0:00:36.040 them back together. Today this is another episode about the 0:00:36.080 --> 0:00:40.120 war in Ukraine. UM. It's going to be eventually an 0:00:40.159 --> 0:00:43.600 interview with a Ukrainian anarchist militant who is fighting on 0:00:43.720 --> 0:00:49.080 behalf of of of Ukrainian people UM in that conflict. 0:00:49.240 --> 0:00:54.080 But here's a little introduction first. So anarchists are all 0:00:54.080 --> 0:00:56.720 about the elimination of hierarchy, and since the state tends 0:00:56.760 --> 0:00:59.960 to be the hierarchy ist thing around, most anarchist act 0:01:00.040 --> 0:01:02.320 this tend to either seek the destruction of the state 0:01:02.440 --> 0:01:05.600 or at least snatches of a life lived beyond its bounds. 0:01:06.080 --> 0:01:09.360 The most joyful moments, and anarchist organized protests tend to 0:01:09.400 --> 0:01:13.240 be those brief liberatory windows where anything seems possible, and 0:01:13.319 --> 0:01:16.480 even say middle class suburban moms might feel briefly like 0:01:16.560 --> 0:01:18.920 they could tear down the walls of a federal courthouse. 0:01:19.560 --> 0:01:22.240 So the idea of anarchists joining and fighting in a 0:01:22.400 --> 0:01:25.840 national military, commanding and being commanded in the hierarchy of 0:01:25.840 --> 0:01:30.200 the state's defense forces feels like a pretty big contradiction. Yet, 0:01:30.240 --> 0:01:33.800 when the Russian Federation launched a massively expanded invasion of 0:01:33.920 --> 0:01:39.160 Ukraine in February two, many Ukrainian anarchists announced their intention 0:01:39.200 --> 0:01:42.640 to fight on the side of their government. Organizations like 0:01:42.720 --> 0:01:46.440 rev DIA formed militias which have been integrated into Ukrainian 0:01:46.560 --> 0:01:50.120 territorial defense forces. In one statement I found on the 0:01:50.160 --> 0:01:54.160 website enough is Enough, a militant representing rev DEA explained 0:01:54.200 --> 0:01:58.280 their feelings this way, Ukrainian anarchists are at war with 0:01:58.360 --> 0:02:02.200 Russian expansionism, fascists, and the government. They have created their 0:02:02.200 --> 0:02:04.920 own arm and call on us to join them. Every 0:02:04.960 --> 0:02:08.800 anarchist collective and organization that understands the revolutionary task and 0:02:08.800 --> 0:02:12.919 the internationalists struggle must transform its general anti war position 0:02:12.919 --> 0:02:16.959 into a position of engagement by participating in or strengthening 0:02:16.960 --> 0:02:20.799 the anarchist Ukrainian guerilla struggle without suspensions and by attacking 0:02:20.800 --> 0:02:24.320 the Russian economic and political power. Victory in arms for 0:02:24.360 --> 0:02:28.040 the anarchists in Ukraine who stand against Russian imperialism, fascist 0:02:28.120 --> 0:02:32.680 paramilitary groups and the democratic government in Kiev. Solidarity with 0:02:32.680 --> 0:02:35.240 the Russian and Belarusian anarchists who are crawling in the 0:02:35.280 --> 0:02:38.720 democratic dungeons trying to stop the war. Let us give 0:02:38.760 --> 0:02:41.400 space to the people and not to the imperialist dreams 0:02:41.440 --> 0:02:44.160 that divide the planet into plots. We are forever with 0:02:44.200 --> 0:02:46.360 the invisible people of the world who are fighting for 0:02:46.400 --> 0:02:52.280 an inclusive, self organized and anti hierarchical world. So anarchists 0:02:52.320 --> 0:02:55.480 with Reveda and other Ukrainian organizations are very much acting 0:02:55.480 --> 0:02:58.120 in line with more than a century of anarchist tradition 0:02:58.240 --> 0:03:02.600 in Ukraine. During the Russian Revolution, famed Ukrainian anarchist war 0:03:02.639 --> 0:03:05.720 lord Nestor Makno was forced to make a tough decision. 0:03:06.320 --> 0:03:10.040 Ukrainian nationalists threatened the central government that had arisen after 0:03:10.040 --> 0:03:12.840 the fall of the Czar, and Makno and his comrades 0:03:12.919 --> 0:03:17.080 decided to defend the democratic socialist government against the nationalists 0:03:17.440 --> 0:03:21.760 from the book Anarchy's Cossack quote. That decision faced the 0:03:21.800 --> 0:03:24.280 local anarchists with a problem, for it had them support 0:03:24.320 --> 0:03:27.280 governmental forces here, which, even if they were of the left, 0:03:27.480 --> 0:03:31.560 were nonetheless potential enemies of the masses. Autonomy Makno reckoned 0:03:31.560 --> 0:03:34.840 at the time that as anarchists, we must, paradox or 0:03:34.840 --> 0:03:37.640 no paradox, make up our minds to form a united 0:03:37.680 --> 0:03:41.360 front with the governmental forces, keeping faith with anarchist principles. 0:03:41.360 --> 0:03:44.200 We will find a way to rise above these contradictions, 0:03:44.240 --> 0:03:47.360 and once the dark forces of reaction have been smashed, 0:03:47.560 --> 0:03:50.120 we will broaden and deepen the course of the revolution 0:03:50.200 --> 0:03:54.720 for the greater good of an enslaved humanity. Roughly one 0:03:54.760 --> 0:03:57.440 month into the expanded Russian invasion, I had the chance 0:03:57.480 --> 0:03:59.960 to sit down and interview an anarchist in Ukraine who 0:04:00.040 --> 0:04:04.440 was participating in the resistance to Putin's regime. We conducted 0:04:04.440 --> 0:04:06.640 our interview over the course of several days as his 0:04:06.720 --> 0:04:10.000 fighting schedule allowed, and we did so over voice messages 0:04:10.040 --> 0:04:13.600 in signal. His audio quality was thankfully quite good. I 0:04:13.640 --> 0:04:16.920 have condensed some bits of the interview, particularly my questions, 0:04:17.120 --> 0:04:19.440 to make things easier to understand, and I moved some 0:04:19.480 --> 0:04:22.080 stuff around a little bit. I hope this is still 0:04:22.120 --> 0:04:26.200 pretty clear. Now here's our source introducing himself. What I 0:04:26.200 --> 0:04:30.000 would start you to tell about my story is um, 0:04:30.160 --> 0:04:34.839 let's call me Iliah. I am an anarchist from some 0:04:34.960 --> 0:04:40.320 neighboring country, but live in Ukraine for civilary several years. 0:04:41.120 --> 0:04:44.320 I had to leave my homeland because of the political 0:04:44.360 --> 0:04:49.880 repressions against anarchists there ah and for me participation in 0:04:49.920 --> 0:04:58.159 this conflict. It has several dimensions, uh once like the 0:04:58.160 --> 0:05:03.120 the first and simplest thing is that Ukraine, even though 0:05:03.160 --> 0:05:08.839 it's like highly imperfect state like with clear new liberal 0:05:08.880 --> 0:05:15.000 stuff and some nationalists and var right influences in the politicum, 0:05:15.600 --> 0:05:19.840 but still is more like gray zone and more like 0:05:20.600 --> 0:05:24.279 um how to say, pluralistic and free space. The state 0:05:24.360 --> 0:05:27.760 here has much less control than in Russia and Belarus, 0:05:27.839 --> 0:05:30.680 for example. I wanted to start by asking them about 0:05:30.720 --> 0:05:33.400 the elephant in any room where people are discussing left 0:05:33.400 --> 0:05:37.279 wing resistance in Ukraine, the neo Nazi as Off battalion. 0:05:38.000 --> 0:05:40.880 I've think it's important for people to like just talk 0:05:40.920 --> 0:05:45.280 about as Off and and and whatnot, and not whitewash 0:05:45.400 --> 0:05:48.479 what's going on. There, But it strikes me that they 0:05:48.560 --> 0:05:52.360 have a really effective social media campaign and they're they're 0:05:52.400 --> 0:05:54.720 sneaking a lot of videos and a lot of combat 0:05:54.720 --> 0:05:58.799 footage and whatnot out into kind of Western mainstream media 0:05:58.880 --> 0:06:03.239 without people realizing Nazis Well. To be honest, of course, uh, 0:06:03.480 --> 0:06:07.279 far right movement is much more massive in Ukraine than 0:06:07.640 --> 0:06:12.600 any libertarian leftist movements at the moment. This I think 0:06:12.800 --> 0:06:17.080 is obvious for you. But at the same time, sometimes 0:06:17.880 --> 0:06:22.479 conscious or unconscious pro Russian propagandists try to portray the 0:06:22.520 --> 0:06:26.600 situation as if it is Nazi state or something like 0:06:26.640 --> 0:06:30.120 all the resistance is far right or something, but actually 0:06:30.800 --> 0:06:34.560 general part of the state. And also, which is more important, 0:06:34.560 --> 0:06:39.880 of the grassroots popular resistance is just a political in 0:06:40.040 --> 0:06:43.400 sense that like most of the army, are not in 0:06:43.440 --> 0:06:46.599 the politics, even though of course we aware that army 0:06:46.720 --> 0:06:51.760 is political institution itself, uh, and especially all those people 0:06:51.800 --> 0:06:55.320 in the villages who are now taking up arms to 0:06:55.520 --> 0:06:59.840 guard their lands against the occupiers, they are also not 0:07:00.920 --> 0:07:05.279 politicularly affiliated. Somehow, Ilia and many of his comrades see 0:07:05.320 --> 0:07:08.919 anarchist participation in the struggle against Russia as necessary for 0:07:09.000 --> 0:07:11.960 two reasons. The most basic is that Putin's regime is 0:07:11.960 --> 0:07:15.040 a threat to their life and freedom to the secondary 0:07:15.080 --> 0:07:17.200 reason is that if they don't fight, they will have 0:07:17.240 --> 0:07:20.160 no ability to influence what happens in their country after 0:07:20.200 --> 0:07:25.240 the war. Today. This invasion, it really constructs the threat 0:07:26.040 --> 0:07:30.280 for the whole existence of this society, more society than 0:07:30.320 --> 0:07:34.440 to the states itself, because this is a kind of 0:07:34.640 --> 0:07:40.360 attempt to export this totalitarian hell which are constructed in 0:07:40.600 --> 0:07:44.920 Russia more or less. And to confront this just not 0:07:45.160 --> 0:07:49.720 let it happen is already a task I think. But 0:07:49.840 --> 0:07:54.840 of course to come to to defend some land against 0:07:56.080 --> 0:08:01.200 some occupation, for me is too simplistic for the anarchist 0:08:01.280 --> 0:08:08.360 and revolutionary approach. So there come like more detailed reason reasons. 0:08:08.400 --> 0:08:12.160 I would say, first of all, I really believe that 0:08:12.320 --> 0:08:18.360 if Putting will be confronted intensively and successfully here, then 0:08:18.560 --> 0:08:23.760 it's very possible that it will break the spine of 0:08:23.840 --> 0:08:28.440 this regime in Russia, which may lead to revolutionary changes 0:08:28.800 --> 0:08:33.920 both in Russia and Belarus, because Belarusian dictatorship exists, like 0:08:34.040 --> 0:08:41.440 realize very much on put In support and so on. Uh. 0:08:41.559 --> 0:08:46.280 And another dimension is that any force which wants to 0:08:46.320 --> 0:08:52.360 be like really politically meaningful in Ukrainian society should take 0:08:52.440 --> 0:08:57.040 sides in this conflict. All people who say some dogmatic 0:08:57.520 --> 0:09:00.760 things like we are against all states again or worse, 0:09:00.920 --> 0:09:03.400 this is not enough. Now, this is not a position 0:09:03.480 --> 0:09:06.920 now uh. And now this is really popular resistance. Like 0:09:07.360 --> 0:09:11.520 if you do not, if you do not join it 0:09:11.640 --> 0:09:17.240 for whatever reasons, then you exclude yourself from actual political 0:09:17.760 --> 0:09:22.000 process because the main questions will be like where are 0:09:22.040 --> 0:09:24.520 you and where were you in these events? And of 0:09:24.559 --> 0:09:29.240 course the right side is to confront this imperialist occupation. Uh. 0:09:29.400 --> 0:09:35.360 This can really give an opportunity to like for future 0:09:35.440 --> 0:09:38.520 and not not for future, actually already today for organizing 0:09:38.520 --> 0:09:45.560 and mobilization of revolutionary libertarian forces UM and constructing ourselves 0:09:45.640 --> 0:09:51.839 as some considerable significant movement. Like for example, now there 0:09:51.920 --> 0:09:56.800 is this unit of territorial self defense which enarchies participate 0:09:56.920 --> 0:10:02.640 in actively. UM. This is now already around fifty people. Well, 0:10:02.800 --> 0:10:10.160 it was unlike unimaginable the recent years and months to 0:10:10.320 --> 0:10:15.640 have some gathering of fifty enarchy antifascialists and so on 0:10:16.559 --> 0:10:19.280 as some joint unit. But now this is the reality, 0:10:19.520 --> 0:10:24.600 and this mobilization is made because of this invasion. Actually, 0:10:25.520 --> 0:10:28.800 so this is something that makes sense. Ut my opinion, 0:10:29.520 --> 0:10:34.559 and another interesting thing I think in context of comparing 0:10:35.160 --> 0:10:41.120 for example UH far left and far right participating in 0:10:41.320 --> 0:10:45.520 Ukrainian political life and the current events, that of course 0:10:45.600 --> 0:10:49.760 for us any collaboration with the state is much more 0:10:49.840 --> 0:10:55.040 problematic than for the Nazis, because even they're like UM 0:10:55.720 --> 0:10:59.280 ideology and mindset, as far as they can evaluate, it 0:11:00.320 --> 0:11:05.280 pretty allows them both any relations with the state structures 0:11:05.360 --> 0:11:08.760 and also any dirty schemes both with the state, with 0:11:08.920 --> 0:11:15.760 the business and with criminal sphere. Like UM UH, our 0:11:15.800 --> 0:11:22.560 approaches are much more puristic, which is partly good of course, 0:11:22.600 --> 0:11:27.800 but also have some consequences for us to be much 0:11:27.880 --> 0:11:31.520 less adoptable as the movement to the real social, political, 0:11:31.600 --> 0:11:38.079 economical realities. And for example, now currently this is still 0:11:38.160 --> 0:11:42.079 a question for anarchists should we join, for example, the 0:11:42.520 --> 0:11:47.960 Territorial Defense UH forces, which is even though somehow militia 0:11:48.080 --> 0:11:53.559 like localized institution, but still of course like state affiliated 0:11:53.600 --> 0:11:59.280 force orchestrated and arranged by the state and subordinated to 0:11:59.679 --> 0:12:05.640 state army hierarchical system UM. But we still believe that 0:12:05.760 --> 0:12:13.120 in current events UM this participation like it UH less 0:12:13.200 --> 0:12:17.840 compromise us, but more give us the tools to organize 0:12:18.000 --> 0:12:22.559 to get experience and to get subjectivity, if we can 0:12:22.600 --> 0:12:26.400 say so in English, like to to to become really 0:12:26.440 --> 0:12:30.680 an actor. UM. And still this, within this frame is 0:12:30.679 --> 0:12:37.320 still possible to maintain UM political independence and even some 0:12:38.400 --> 0:12:41.920 sort of structural independence. So this is not just people 0:12:41.960 --> 0:12:44.440 are going and joining the army and that's it. They 0:12:44.440 --> 0:12:48.600 are now just units UM at least up to the moment. 0:12:48.800 --> 0:12:53.360 This is not our story and this is something at 0:12:53.440 --> 0:12:58.280 least me personally reflecting on a lot. First, I would 0:12:58.320 --> 0:13:01.760 like you mentioned you came to Ukraine from a neighboring 0:13:01.800 --> 0:13:05.600 country where repression of anarchists was more severe. I am 0:13:05.679 --> 0:13:09.559 interested prior to, you know, this stage of the invasion. 0:13:10.120 --> 0:13:14.079 Obviously the first invasion happened, but prior to this escalation, 0:13:15.360 --> 0:13:19.840 how would you describe state repression against anarchists in Ukraine, 0:13:19.920 --> 0:13:23.640 the degree to which anarchist organizing was opposed by the state, 0:13:23.720 --> 0:13:27.480 by the police in Ukraine. UM. And then the follow 0:13:27.559 --> 0:13:30.120 up question to that would be, as you guys saw 0:13:30.880 --> 0:13:34.800 this war building, could you elaborate on some of the 0:13:34.840 --> 0:13:37.720 discussions that happened about what to do, about whether or 0:13:37.720 --> 0:13:39.960 not to form militious whether or not or to what 0:13:40.080 --> 0:13:45.760 extent to fight alongside the government. UM. So about state 0:13:45.800 --> 0:13:50.840 repressions against the anarchists in Ukraine in recent years, I 0:13:50.880 --> 0:13:55.600 would say that they were, of course UM much less 0:13:55.640 --> 0:14:01.000 hard than for example, in Belarus and Russia. UH. Also 0:14:01.480 --> 0:14:06.200 because like for different reasons, because of in general of 0:14:06.240 --> 0:14:11.920 course more pluralist political culture and political situation in Ukraine, 0:14:12.640 --> 0:14:18.360 but also partly because the anarchist movement in after my 0:14:18.440 --> 0:14:21.880 Dan period was not that organized and not that combative 0:14:22.400 --> 0:14:28.000 to really draw drive attention of the state to itself. 0:14:28.520 --> 0:14:33.840 And also what I need to say that in maybe 0:14:33.880 --> 0:14:42.920 two thousand nineteen and twenty, this attention grew dramatically after 0:14:43.080 --> 0:14:47.480 several direct actions were taken by anarchists, for example, some 0:14:47.520 --> 0:14:52.840 sabotage against UH cell phone towers of some Turkish affiliated 0:14:52.880 --> 0:14:58.480 company when Turkey invaded Rojava in UH the late autumn 0:14:58.560 --> 0:15:02.760 of two thousand nineteen and often and also several actions 0:15:02.800 --> 0:15:09.120 against some police stations UH. Some of these statements were 0:15:09.600 --> 0:15:15.440 placed in anarchist fighter website and telegram channel UH, and 0:15:15.560 --> 0:15:21.040 so police and secret services got, how to say, very 0:15:21.160 --> 0:15:25.840 energetic in their attempts to find the people who did this, 0:15:26.480 --> 0:15:31.120 even though they didn't succeed. Actually, so several house rates 0:15:31.160 --> 0:15:37.880 taking place. They also tried to depart one anarchist from Belarus, 0:15:37.880 --> 0:15:43.600 Alexey Brenkov, who UH stayed in Ukraine for several years 0:15:43.880 --> 0:15:52.200 while decided to move out from Lukashenko regime and so UH. 0:15:52.240 --> 0:15:55.320 But they didn't depart actually, and also their house rates 0:15:55.320 --> 0:15:57.800 were not successful, so they didn't succeed in the in 0:15:57.840 --> 0:16:01.600 their repressions. So in the last couple of this picture, 0:16:02.320 --> 0:16:06.760 UH would say vegetarian picture of zero attention of the 0:16:06.800 --> 0:16:11.400 state to anarchist movement. It changed, so it started to 0:16:11.440 --> 0:16:15.040 be like a different way before it actually also was 0:16:15.120 --> 0:16:20.880 some direct actions believed to be related with revolutionary action 0:16:20.960 --> 0:16:25.960 anarchist group. It was if I am not mistaken around 0:16:26.000 --> 0:16:30.560 to Southern seventeen and so on. UH. And this also 0:16:31.560 --> 0:16:39.040 verse somehow UM prosecuted by by Ukrainian secret services. Also 0:16:39.160 --> 0:16:45.320 about organized participation of different anarchist faction UH in the 0:16:45.480 --> 0:16:51.120 current resistance against the Putting East imperialist aggression. Like about 0:16:51.120 --> 0:16:55.160 the most organized initiative you all in most numbered you 0:16:55.240 --> 0:17:01.200 already know, but there are several others, smaller groups like 0:17:01.440 --> 0:17:07.080 more like affinity groups or several friends participating in different units. 0:17:07.280 --> 0:17:10.600 We even cannot count it because we even don't know 0:17:10.680 --> 0:17:14.399 about everyone who participate. At this point, he started talking 0:17:14.440 --> 0:17:17.560 about an anarchist militant named Igor wala Chow, who had 0:17:17.600 --> 0:17:20.639 been killed by a rocket in Kharkiv a few days earlier. 0:17:21.080 --> 0:17:23.600 Before the war. Wala Chow had expressed a desire to 0:17:23.720 --> 0:17:26.679 organize a network of co ops across Ukraine. He had 0:17:26.720 --> 0:17:30.080 also been active in providing support for anarchists jailed in Russia. 0:17:30.400 --> 0:17:34.399 Ilia referred to him as having been martyred. He was participating, 0:17:34.480 --> 0:17:37.919 I don't know, either individually or with some of his 0:17:38.040 --> 0:17:41.320 friends from Karkiv, but for example, I knew nothing about 0:17:41.440 --> 0:17:46.280 their group and their participations. There is also Black Flag, 0:17:46.840 --> 0:17:51.199 anarchist group from Reliev which now as far as I know, 0:17:51.320 --> 0:17:56.200 participating in territorial self defense of Kiev. At least they 0:17:56.240 --> 0:18:00.800 released several photos and some short statement. This is something 0:18:00.880 --> 0:18:04.199 organized which I know about, and apart from that, I know, 0:18:04.400 --> 0:18:10.600 just as I already Telt told you, several affinity groups, 0:18:10.640 --> 0:18:13.840 groups of friends. The overall picture he painted of anarchist 0:18:13.920 --> 0:18:17.159 resistance in Ukraine was extremely atomized, due in part to 0:18:17.280 --> 0:18:20.240 pre war concerns about avoiding state repression and the myriad 0:18:20.320 --> 0:18:24.800 doctrinal differences between different kinds of anarchists. The war seems 0:18:24.800 --> 0:18:27.639 to have had a catalyzing effect which has made larger 0:18:27.720 --> 0:18:31.680 militant anarchist organizing possible for the first time in recent memory. 0:18:32.200 --> 0:18:35.399 Eliah was cautiously optimistic about this, but he and his 0:18:35.480 --> 0:18:39.480 comrades also recognized a danger here. We are trying to 0:18:39.640 --> 0:18:44.880 avoid attention from the state services, from secret services, even 0:18:44.920 --> 0:18:49.879 though we still have to collaborate UH somehow with the 0:18:50.119 --> 0:18:54.439 military hierarchy and so on in this situation. But of 0:18:54.440 --> 0:19:00.560 course we understand that if we will attract undesirable attention, 0:19:00.640 --> 0:19:05.159 than probably some forces would try to destroy us or 0:19:06.000 --> 0:19:11.320 somehow assimilate subjugate us. None of these scenarios are good 0:19:11.359 --> 0:19:14.920 for us, and we aware of it. So we try 0:19:15.000 --> 0:19:18.800 to have some publicity and at the same time to 0:19:19.280 --> 0:19:24.000 act ourselves in the way which will not drive repressive 0:19:24.000 --> 0:19:29.160 attention to us. Like immediately. So up to now, within 0:19:29.640 --> 0:19:34.400 this frame of territorial defense UH and UH like some 0:19:34.560 --> 0:19:39.320 civil volunteer activities and some other quite conventional activities of 0:19:39.400 --> 0:19:45.320 participating in this conflict against the putting east Side, we 0:19:45.359 --> 0:19:52.120 believe that we can take the ground for the new 0:19:52.160 --> 0:19:57.040 conceptions and programs of lack of libertarian cause and also 0:19:58.000 --> 0:20:03.600 some organizational developments, some organized structure which are of course 0:20:03.640 --> 0:20:07.560 not necessarily should be illegal from from the very first steps, 0:20:08.280 --> 0:20:14.639 but to establish some organizational basis and maybe hopefully ideological 0:20:14.680 --> 0:20:21.000 basis which will help us to act more actively both 0:20:21.119 --> 0:20:24.040 during the war and after war. Could you go into 0:20:24.080 --> 0:20:26.480 a little more detail about the ways in which you 0:20:26.880 --> 0:20:29.960 all do your units do kind of interface with the state. 0:20:30.560 --> 0:20:32.960 I went on to ask how they organized their combat 0:20:33.080 --> 0:20:35.800 units and whether or not this reflected their broader beliefs 0:20:35.800 --> 0:20:39.680 about horizontal organizing. His basic answer was that the militias 0:20:39.720 --> 0:20:43.040 have to operate within a military command structure and thus 0:20:43.080 --> 0:20:45.880 have to be broadly organized in the same way conventional 0:20:45.920 --> 0:20:49.960 military units are. However, being a regular their life outside 0:20:49.960 --> 0:20:53.560 of battle was much less regimented than what regular soldiers experience. 0:20:54.640 --> 0:21:01.160 So about military hierarchy in general, of course, territory defense 0:21:01.200 --> 0:21:06.159 forces are set by the state and they are included 0:21:06.480 --> 0:21:11.240 into the general structure of a military hierarchy of regular army. 0:21:12.240 --> 0:21:15.840 In this sense, we are of course generally not autonomous, 0:21:16.000 --> 0:21:22.560 and what is what's been issued by superior command we 0:21:22.600 --> 0:21:29.240 should implement in life and should um fulfill these orders. However, 0:21:29.400 --> 0:21:33.960 now territorial defense forces I would not speak about all 0:21:34.000 --> 0:21:37.280 of them because I limited since the very start of 0:21:37.800 --> 0:21:46.480 war within my own experience with this unit. These forces 0:21:47.160 --> 0:21:51.760 have like a lot of time for constructing itself, like 0:21:52.080 --> 0:21:57.800 our internal life not that much regulated by the higher command. 0:21:58.640 --> 0:22:03.840 And also there is a sort of space of communication 0:22:04.440 --> 0:22:07.600 with some commanders which are a little bit higher than us. 0:22:08.800 --> 0:22:13.760 So we have like good people who our comrades, who 0:22:13.840 --> 0:22:17.320 set this opportunity for us to get organized within this 0:22:17.400 --> 0:22:20.840 frame of territorial defense. This was just our old friends 0:22:21.560 --> 0:22:28.760 who decided to join some territorial defense structure as officers 0:22:29.480 --> 0:22:33.920 already before uh this situation started to happen. Um So, 0:22:34.080 --> 0:22:38.920 I think these people do really good job, and they 0:22:38.960 --> 0:22:46.240 provide for us options to feel ourselves like comparatively free. 0:22:46.480 --> 0:22:50.680 Of course, not in operational sense, because uh, like operational 0:22:51.840 --> 0:22:54.840 frame is being set by the higher command and like 0:22:54.960 --> 0:22:59.439 as one picture, one scheme, and in this aspect we 0:22:59.520 --> 0:23:03.800 of course just the one of the elements of the 0:23:03.880 --> 0:23:08.000 general plan of the fighting. Uh they put in regime 0:23:08.040 --> 0:23:14.000 invasion here. Um so, I mean, yes, as a unit 0:23:14.160 --> 0:23:18.840 we are governed by the military command, but this is 0:23:18.960 --> 0:23:24.880 really rarely that we see anyone apart anyone of some 0:23:25.440 --> 0:23:29.840 officers or I don't know, generals or somebody else from 0:23:29.880 --> 0:23:36.240 above the military hierarchy. We here now occupied with the training, 0:23:36.359 --> 0:23:42.320 with the organizational constructing and with like improving our internal life, 0:23:43.000 --> 0:23:57.000 not being like really orchestrated by any military military hierarchy. People. Um, 0:23:57.040 --> 0:24:00.840 so what about internal structure. It is still supposed to 0:24:00.880 --> 0:24:07.400 be organized on the traditional army scheme, So every section 0:24:07.520 --> 0:24:12.320 has a commander, unit in general has a commander. And 0:24:12.359 --> 0:24:14.919 this is not an elected people. This is not like 0:24:15.240 --> 0:24:21.480 really controlled from from below people. Um. Maybe unfortunately or 0:24:21.520 --> 0:24:24.000 maybe this is necessary in the current situation. This is 0:24:24.080 --> 0:24:28.240 really hard to estimate to evaluate at the moment. Uh. 0:24:28.280 --> 0:24:32.120 In this manner, our internal structure in sense of like 0:24:32.440 --> 0:24:36.840 military structure is more or less traditional for the territorial defense. 0:24:37.760 --> 0:24:41.359 At the same time, of course, we have more democratic 0:24:41.400 --> 0:24:47.639 internal culture. In general territorial defenses people mostly organized on 0:24:47.800 --> 0:24:52.760 local basis and also out of volunteers. So people who 0:24:52.800 --> 0:24:56.560 came here are on their good will and not on 0:24:56.720 --> 0:25:00.919 some constrict conscription or some contract which gives you a 0:25:00.960 --> 0:25:05.640 certain money or privileges. So because of this, you already 0:25:05.680 --> 0:25:10.240 supposed to be somehow more free, uh and more up 0:25:10.280 --> 0:25:14.040 to express your opinions UM and so on. And of 0:25:14.080 --> 0:25:22.000 course we as somehow UM leftist affiliated anarchist unit. Of 0:25:22.040 --> 0:25:28.760 course we encourage the internal discussion. Everyone including all the 0:25:28.840 --> 0:25:35.760 commanders inside our regiment are subjects to critics and discussion UM, 0:25:35.840 --> 0:25:42.040 even though maybe final words in the operational questions are 0:25:42.160 --> 0:25:45.760 up to these people UH. And also it's important that 0:25:46.359 --> 0:25:50.200 we maintain a total political autonomy, in sense that all 0:25:50.240 --> 0:25:54.440 the groups and individuals who constructs, who construct the unit 0:25:55.480 --> 0:26:00.520 we are part of, they like absolutely free to express 0:26:01.119 --> 0:26:08.640 their analysis, political analysis, and conceptual conceptualization of both these 0:26:08.640 --> 0:26:14.400 events and our participation in them, according to their like analysis, 0:26:14.560 --> 0:26:18.639 their attitude, and so on. I also asked what it 0:26:18.720 --> 0:26:21.320 was like to fight ostensibly on the same side as 0:26:21.400 --> 0:26:24.600 neo Nazi elements like ASOF. While Iliah and his unit 0:26:24.640 --> 0:26:27.000 are not anywhere close to the as OFF battalion, I 0:26:27.040 --> 0:26:28.919 wanted to know how he and his comrades dealt with 0:26:28.960 --> 0:26:31.480 the weird reality of being in the same broadside as 0:26:31.480 --> 0:26:34.119 people they might have battled in the street. At one point, 0:26:34.520 --> 0:26:37.800 I would say that before war, of course, there was 0:26:38.160 --> 0:26:43.760 a lot of tensions between UH fascists and US, not 0:26:44.000 --> 0:26:47.320 directly with us OFF, because as OF is um like 0:26:47.480 --> 0:26:50.160 military unit. Like this is not the guys you meet 0:26:50.240 --> 0:26:53.239 and fight in the streets, but of course there is 0:26:53.320 --> 0:26:57.520 like they tried to set like their own how to say, mafia, 0:26:57.600 --> 0:27:02.320 political empire I would call it, or mafia like they 0:27:02.359 --> 0:27:08.400 had some businesses, some criminal stuff, some patronage from the 0:27:08.440 --> 0:27:15.240 Interior Ministry uh and also very different how to say, 0:27:15.280 --> 0:27:19.160 far right groups which the leaders of so called as 0:27:19.160 --> 0:27:24.560 of movement, which is much broader than as of Battalion itself, 0:27:25.240 --> 0:27:30.760 they tried to utilized and instrumentalized to reach their own goals. 0:27:31.440 --> 0:27:34.520 And with some of these groups, so of course we 0:27:34.640 --> 0:27:39.480 had like just street fights for example, the elements closed 0:27:39.640 --> 0:27:42.600 to this as of movement, they try to influence a 0:27:42.600 --> 0:27:47.840 lot the Belarusian diaspora, like a position of diaspora in Kiev. 0:27:48.880 --> 0:27:54.639 For example, in the one year anniversary of the protests 0:27:54.640 --> 0:27:59.640 of twenty twenty in Belarus, there were there was fight 0:28:00.280 --> 0:28:04.359 in Kiev between anarchists who came to participate in demonstrations 0:28:05.040 --> 0:28:10.000 in this demonstration and the Nazis who attacked them in 0:28:10.720 --> 0:28:15.560 like aiming to somehow push them out from the Belarusian 0:28:15.600 --> 0:28:20.560 movement to influence it in their own way. Like also 0:28:20.680 --> 0:28:25.680 just usual street confrontation also took place. All this time 0:28:25.760 --> 0:28:30.639 there is quite visible and active Antifa movement in Kiev 0:28:30.760 --> 0:28:37.080 which confronted Nazis on the streets UH and blocked sometimes 0:28:37.280 --> 0:28:42.440 uh UM several of their like initiatives and so on. 0:28:43.320 --> 0:28:48.680 And also of course informational and propaganda struggle was held 0:28:48.760 --> 0:28:52.920 by us by us UH during all this time, since 0:28:53.000 --> 0:28:56.120 my then and of course before as well. About the 0:28:56.200 --> 0:29:01.600 current military situation, like, of course we are now actually 0:29:01.720 --> 0:29:05.000 part of one army with the right sector as of 0:29:05.560 --> 0:29:08.280 and so on. People, we are under the same military 0:29:08.320 --> 0:29:13.120 command UH, and if we will be tasked to fight 0:29:13.360 --> 0:29:16.080 in the same place the same enemy, we will be 0:29:16.880 --> 0:29:22.360 actually like the same UM like part of the barricade. 0:29:23.200 --> 0:29:28.160 But this situation we need to deal with. Like there 0:29:28.200 --> 0:29:33.400 are different opinions amongst our comrades, and here about as 0:29:33.400 --> 0:29:37.600 off and all the parietists, they differs from that they 0:29:37.640 --> 0:29:41.520 are actually our enemies like both now and also in 0:29:41.600 --> 0:29:45.840 any future Ukraine, in any future scenario. Because these people 0:29:45.920 --> 0:29:51.000 promote like quite obviously absolutely opposite political and social goals, 0:29:51.120 --> 0:29:57.440 then we UM other people say that another like other 0:29:57.480 --> 0:30:02.520 people say that now there how to say, general deadly 0:30:02.600 --> 0:30:07.239 threat we are facing and we should fight regardless of 0:30:07.440 --> 0:30:10.440 left and right and something like this to fight the 0:30:10.480 --> 0:30:14.880 imperialist invasion. But I personally me I do not support 0:30:15.040 --> 0:30:19.840 this second assumption and position. I see this quite not 0:30:20.080 --> 0:30:24.600 really politically smart at my opinion. But what we here 0:30:24.680 --> 0:30:27.760 can agree on is that if we want to confront 0:30:28.600 --> 0:30:33.720 uh Nazis UH and far right parts of the Ukrainian 0:30:33.760 --> 0:30:37.880 political and also military spectrum, then we need to develop 0:30:38.000 --> 0:30:44.240 our own strong structure, our own strong actor UH. And 0:30:44.280 --> 0:30:47.960 also this um somehow connected with the question about p 0:30:48.200 --> 0:30:50.959 R you mentioned that like we need our own pr, 0:30:51.080 --> 0:30:55.440 our own publicity and media work, and also our first 0:30:55.480 --> 0:31:00.200 of all, our own conceptions and ideological blueprints which we 0:31:00.280 --> 0:31:07.160 can um suggest to Ukrainian society and present both inside 0:31:07.240 --> 0:31:11.280 Ukraine and abroad. And this is the work, this is 0:31:11.320 --> 0:31:15.920 the challenge and duty which we need to fulfill and 0:31:16.320 --> 0:31:21.040 hopefully like not hopefully, but actually we are working on 0:31:21.080 --> 0:31:26.000 this already now. So if you want to combat us 0:31:26.000 --> 0:31:31.360 off now is UH not the time maybe to accuse 0:31:31.480 --> 0:31:34.920 them UH in some public statements, but this is time 0:31:34.960 --> 0:31:40.000 to develop alternative structure which will be able to really 0:31:40.040 --> 0:31:59.800 confront this reactionary currence. What it could happen here a podcast. 0:32:00.000 --> 0:32:04.480 Have heard me introduce like probably wow, probably like seventy 0:32:04.560 --> 0:32:08.680 or eighty times by now. But yeah, you you have 0:32:08.720 --> 0:32:11.200 heard me introduce this podcast enough times. You probably know 0:32:11.240 --> 0:32:13.400 what it's about. If you don't, it's about things following 0:32:13.440 --> 0:32:16.600 apart and then putting it back together again. And today 0:32:16.680 --> 0:32:19.560 we are doing a historical things trying to go back 0:32:19.600 --> 0:32:23.400 together and then fell apart again episodes And with me, 0:32:23.840 --> 0:32:27.600 I'm your host Christopher Wong, and with me is Nicholas Scott, 0:32:27.640 --> 0:32:30.160 who is a PhD candidate in Latin American history at 0:32:30.280 --> 0:32:33.200 u v A. Nicholas, Welcome to the show. Thank you 0:32:33.240 --> 0:32:35.440 so much for having me. It's a pleasure to be here. Yeah, 0:32:35.720 --> 0:32:38.640 I'm excited. I'm excited to have you. And today we're 0:32:38.640 --> 0:32:42.600 gonna be talking about something that we've we've mentioned before 0:32:43.240 --> 0:32:45.480 on a few other episodes that that we've done about 0:32:45.560 --> 0:32:48.600 Chile and about the all end a period. But I 0:32:48.640 --> 0:32:51.040 think like, well, we definitely have not given enough attention 0:32:51.120 --> 0:32:55.040 and I think gets less attention in the sort of 0:32:56.080 --> 0:33:00.040 mainstream like left analysis of what happened to Allende and 0:33:00.160 --> 0:33:01.720 what was going on in that period, which is the 0:33:01.760 --> 0:33:05.840 cordonas and Nick has written about this a lot and 0:33:06.000 --> 0:33:10.800 is also writing more about this and is doing research. Actually, 0:33:10.880 --> 0:33:12.360 do do you do you care? Do you mind if 0:33:12.400 --> 0:33:15.680 I mentioned that you're in chi leading research right now? No, totally. Um, 0:33:15.800 --> 0:33:18.040 you know that's where I am. I'm here two years 0:33:18.080 --> 0:33:20.280 after the pandemic took me away. I found being able 0:33:20.320 --> 0:33:24.800 to come back and resume my research. Yeah. And so, Nicholas, 0:33:24.800 --> 0:33:26.479 I think in your work. The thing that I think 0:33:26.600 --> 0:33:29.760 is is different about it than a lot of the 0:33:29.760 --> 0:33:34.600 the stuff that you'll read about I end in about 0:33:34.640 --> 0:33:38.880 the Cordonats is the sort of historicization of it. And 0:33:39.000 --> 0:33:41.160 so I won I was wondering if if we can 0:33:41.200 --> 0:33:44.960 start back, I guess in the sixties and talk a 0:33:44.960 --> 0:33:47.840 bit about the sort of political situation that gets you 0:33:47.960 --> 0:33:52.440 to this sort of revolutionary moment. Yeah, that's great. I mean, 0:33:52.480 --> 0:33:55.000 I think that it's important that we start at an 0:33:55.000 --> 0:33:59.600 earlier moment to really understand how the Cordonas emerge as 0:33:59.600 --> 0:34:04.240 a speci cific um culture, a specific urban space across 0:34:04.280 --> 0:34:07.520 the city of Santiago. Uh. You know, the English translation 0:34:07.680 --> 0:34:11.120 of the Cordons industrialist would essentially just be industrial belts. 0:34:11.160 --> 0:34:13.360 So you can think of these as sort of sectors 0:34:13.400 --> 0:34:16.240 of the city where the majority of sort of heavy 0:34:16.280 --> 0:34:20.080 industry had been based UM, and then these specters themselves 0:34:20.400 --> 0:34:23.840 were sort of roomnants of the nineteenth century UH, specifically 0:34:23.880 --> 0:34:27.279 the railroad lines that would UH sort of the main 0:34:27.320 --> 0:34:31.680 thoroughfares into the city of Santiago from the countryside. UM. 0:34:31.719 --> 0:34:33.800 You know, over the course of the early twentieth century, 0:34:34.239 --> 0:34:37.520 as you have the development of industry in in Chile 0:34:37.640 --> 0:34:40.440 and in Santiago specifically, these are the same areas then 0:34:40.480 --> 0:34:43.239 where these factories are are being developed because you have 0:34:43.280 --> 0:34:46.360 pre existing sort of transportation networks that they're able to 0:34:46.400 --> 0:34:49.360 take advantage of. UM. The problem is is that you know, 0:34:49.560 --> 0:34:53.680 industrialization happens sort of in fits and starts in the 0:34:53.840 --> 0:34:57.440 history of Chile UH. And the other sort of problem 0:34:57.560 --> 0:35:01.040 is the problem of transportation itself. So, for example, in 0:35:01.080 --> 0:35:04.720 the nineteen thirties, there's an urban plan that gets developed 0:35:04.719 --> 0:35:09.840 for Santiago Centro or the central part of Santiago, and 0:35:09.840 --> 0:35:12.920 they bring in an Austrian urban planner, Carl Bruner, to 0:35:13.000 --> 0:35:17.000 help with this UH. And while Carl Bruner essentially tries 0:35:17.040 --> 0:35:21.839 to do for Santiago UM what Hausman did for France, right, 0:35:22.000 --> 0:35:27.360 widen boulevards make the city more accessible to new forms 0:35:27.360 --> 0:35:31.720 of transportation, right, ideally the car buses, things of that nature. 0:35:32.239 --> 0:35:35.640 The problem is is that he limited his work and 0:35:35.719 --> 0:35:38.640 his studies, as I said, just to the center of 0:35:38.680 --> 0:35:42.320 Santiago itself. Uh. The other problem is that once Brunner 0:35:42.440 --> 0:35:46.319 leaves Santiago, the plan that's actually put into effect um 0:35:46.400 --> 0:35:48.920 isn't necessarily all of his plan. It was sort of 0:35:48.960 --> 0:35:52.480 a patchwork that legislators um sort of pick and choose 0:35:52.960 --> 0:35:55.719 from when they put this plan into effect. And so 0:35:55.800 --> 0:35:59.040 in between the thirties and the nineteen sixties, you know, 0:35:59.120 --> 0:36:02.239 a lot has had Uh. Primarily you have the sort 0:36:02.239 --> 0:36:07.320 of twin processes of industrialization, sort of rapid industrialization that's 0:36:07.360 --> 0:36:09.799 taking place, which you also have this other process, which 0:36:09.800 --> 0:36:13.200 is rural migration, sort of internal migration. And this isn't 0:36:13.239 --> 0:36:16.200 a process that's limited to just Chile, right, this is 0:36:16.239 --> 0:36:20.320 a region wide process that's happening all across Latin America. 0:36:20.920 --> 0:36:23.560 And you're having sort of two factors that play in 0:36:23.560 --> 0:36:27.719 this viggration. Right. You're having the push factor from the countryside, right, 0:36:27.760 --> 0:36:31.520 the lack of opportunity, lack of jobs, lack of secure 0:36:31.600 --> 0:36:35.120 employments um from the countryside. And then you're also having 0:36:35.200 --> 0:36:38.160 the poll factor, which is you know, these industries that 0:36:38.160 --> 0:36:40.960 are springing up in the city, as well as the 0:36:41.000 --> 0:36:44.560 sort of infrastructure that a city would afford relative to 0:36:44.560 --> 0:36:48.160 the countryside. UH. And these two processes sort of come 0:36:48.200 --> 0:36:51.560 to a head in the nineteen fifties UM in Chile, 0:36:51.640 --> 0:36:54.080 and by the end of the nineteen fifties UH, it's 0:36:54.120 --> 0:36:58.799 clear to a growing set of people UM, including jan Paiochia, 0:36:59.120 --> 0:37:02.640 who is an architect, UM, that something needs to be done. 0:37:02.719 --> 0:37:05.480 There needs to be a new urban plan for the 0:37:05.480 --> 0:37:09.440 city of Santiago UH. And this urban plan what they 0:37:09.480 --> 0:37:11.520 try to do is it's the first time that there's 0:37:11.520 --> 0:37:15.080 a sort of intercommunal which communal in this sense would 0:37:15.120 --> 0:37:18.560 be a rough translation to municipality UM in English. So 0:37:18.560 --> 0:37:21.680 it's really the first sort of inter municipal urban plan 0:37:21.760 --> 0:37:25.200 that tries to link networks together. And this is actually 0:37:25.239 --> 0:37:30.360 the first time that this word corbone industrial appears in 0:37:30.480 --> 0:37:34.200 like an official government document. Right. That's the first time UM, 0:37:34.239 --> 0:37:38.680 that urban planners themselves are thinking about zones of the 0:37:38.760 --> 0:37:42.320 city that are going to be specifically for industry. And 0:37:42.920 --> 0:37:45.160 so the idea is that they want to move a 0:37:45.160 --> 0:37:47.160 lot of the industry that has sprung up in those 0:37:47.200 --> 0:37:51.040 intervening years from the early twentieth century that was located 0:37:51.080 --> 0:37:52.960 more in the center of the city. They want to 0:37:53.000 --> 0:37:54.759 move it out of the center of the city, you know, 0:37:54.960 --> 0:37:58.719 largely for things of pollution, safety, all of the things 0:37:58.760 --> 0:38:01.319 that go along with heavy indust street. They want it 0:38:01.360 --> 0:38:04.319 further on the periphery. Uh. And so that's part of 0:38:04.320 --> 0:38:09.160 this urban plan that essentially tries to zone basically zone 0:38:09.719 --> 0:38:13.719 um these uh, these sectors. And so that's really where 0:38:13.719 --> 0:38:16.440 my disportation starts. That's where my research really sort of starts. 0:38:16.520 --> 0:38:20.880 The stories and um, the late nineteen fifties, early nineteen sixties, 0:38:20.920 --> 0:38:23.520 when these urban plans are taking effect. And so what 0:38:23.560 --> 0:38:26.719 I'm interested in then is, you know, how did the 0:38:26.800 --> 0:38:31.360 creation of these specific sectors of the city as industrial zones, 0:38:31.840 --> 0:38:34.480 how did they then give rise to an urban culture 0:38:35.280 --> 0:38:38.839 that will then manifest itself in a very revolutionary moment 0:38:38.880 --> 0:38:41.920 once end comes to power. Yeah, And I think that 0:38:41.920 --> 0:38:45.959 that's an interesting way to look at it because I think, 0:38:46.640 --> 0:38:50.440 you know, because the process of sort of industry moving 0:38:50.480 --> 0:38:53.040 from the center of the urban core outwards is something 0:38:53.080 --> 0:38:57.720 that happens it really across the world, but mostly after 0:38:57.760 --> 0:38:59.759 that period, and that that was one of the one 0:38:59.800 --> 0:39:01.840 of the things that struck me about it. That's interesting. 0:39:01.880 --> 0:39:04.239 I want to ask you about which is so to 0:39:04.560 --> 0:39:07.520 what extent is this Is this a different process than 0:39:07.560 --> 0:39:11.560 the kind of like, you know, the kind of suburbanization 0:39:11.680 --> 0:39:14.160 that you see of of industry in the US, for example, 0:39:14.200 --> 0:39:18.160 in like the nineteen eighties, or is it closer to well, 0:39:18.200 --> 0:39:19.680 you know, I've talked I've talked about this, I guess 0:39:19.680 --> 0:39:21.759 on the show in the Chinese context to where you 0:39:21.840 --> 0:39:26.359 have i mean mostly pollution stuff has seen like some 0:39:26.440 --> 0:39:29.320 industry sort of like I mean just literally getting pushed 0:39:29.320 --> 0:39:33.080 into into rural areas. Is it is it like is 0:39:33.320 --> 0:39:35.880 it like those same kind of impulses or is there 0:39:35.920 --> 0:39:40.560 a different kind of um like relation, I mean, like 0:39:40.600 --> 0:39:42.720 how far out of the city, Like is this stuff 0:39:43.239 --> 0:39:45.880 like getting pushed to That's a great question, It's a 0:39:45.880 --> 0:39:49.400 wonderful question. Um. And you know it is actually important. 0:39:49.480 --> 0:39:51.560 This is important to remember that at this time the 0:39:51.640 --> 0:39:54.399 city of Santiago, um, you know, just outside the city 0:39:54.440 --> 0:39:57.560 of Santiago is is still largely rural. Right where where 0:39:57.600 --> 0:40:00.320 the first cordon will emerge on the southwestern side of 0:40:00.360 --> 0:40:05.480 the city is still a largely rural part of the 0:40:05.520 --> 0:40:08.440 city itself. Uh. And so it is very similar to 0:40:08.440 --> 0:40:10.880 the dynamics that you're describing, and that it is pushing 0:40:11.400 --> 0:40:14.759 you know, away from where people are living, right, two 0:40:15.120 --> 0:40:18.719 more rural places where there is more land both to build, right, 0:40:18.760 --> 0:40:21.399 So there is the availability of space, but there's also 0:40:21.520 --> 0:40:25.759 less people living in that space. So from the planner's perspective, 0:40:26.360 --> 0:40:29.600 it's considered better because the sort of you know, chemical 0:40:29.840 --> 0:40:32.040 and heavy metal runoffs from a lot of the metal 0:40:32.080 --> 0:40:37.520 working factories, all of these things and the pollution from smokestacks, etcetera, um, 0:40:37.560 --> 0:40:42.000 you know, are less harmful. The problem then becomes, however, Um, 0:40:42.640 --> 0:40:45.239 the as I mentioned the rural migration and people that 0:40:45.280 --> 0:40:48.400 are migrating to the city. You know, there's not space 0:40:48.800 --> 0:40:52.040 in the center of the city for these people to live, right, 0:40:52.080 --> 0:40:55.960 so they're moving into the same areas. So in some senses, 0:40:56.160 --> 0:40:59.920 the sort of historical dynamics of the region are undercut 0:41:00.560 --> 0:41:02.720 the sort of success of the planners when it comes 0:41:02.760 --> 0:41:07.879 to making these zones away from the city itself. Um. 0:41:07.920 --> 0:41:09.600 And I guess I guess that that would be something 0:41:10.200 --> 0:41:12.320 also that that's interesting about this, which is that I 0:41:12.360 --> 0:41:14.920 think because like you know, the sort of like decentralization 0:41:15.200 --> 0:41:17.840 of industry and that the push into rural areas, I 0:41:17.840 --> 0:41:20.560 think largely did not produce a kind of like radical 0:41:20.640 --> 0:41:23.080 working class culture. But but but it seems like you 0:41:23.120 --> 0:41:25.560 have this kind of veiling factor here, which is that 0:41:26.719 --> 0:41:29.759 you have a bunch of people who are like who 0:41:29.760 --> 0:41:32.279 are who are coming into industrial work for the first 0:41:32.320 --> 0:41:34.759 time out of the countryside, which tends to be a 0:41:34.840 --> 0:41:37.759 very radical faction. Like is that one of the things 0:41:37.800 --> 0:41:40.000 that gives you this sort of radical culture instead of 0:41:40.000 --> 0:41:42.719 the kind of like total disintecreation of the class that 0:41:42.760 --> 0:41:46.400 you see in the sort of later versions of this. 0:41:46.400 --> 0:41:48.520 This is such a beautiful question, and this this question 0:41:48.560 --> 0:41:51.960 really lays the heart of my research. So if we 0:41:52.000 --> 0:41:53.840 scope out just for a bit and think about this 0:41:53.920 --> 0:41:58.480 historiographically in Chile, there is a vein of historiography that 0:41:58.560 --> 0:42:01.960 is very concerned with these rural migrants, which once they 0:42:02.040 --> 0:42:04.920 arrive in the city are referred to as pobladores right 0:42:04.960 --> 0:42:07.640 which we can roughly translate this sort of urban poor, 0:42:08.120 --> 0:42:12.360 right um. And they're considered a sort of capital s 0:42:12.520 --> 0:42:16.120 social subject that is distinct from a worker or from 0:42:16.160 --> 0:42:19.680 a working class um, from a sociological point of view, 0:42:20.120 --> 0:42:24.719 right um. And the reason this is because a lot 0:42:24.880 --> 0:42:27.920 of them. Um. While they are workers, you know, they 0:42:27.960 --> 0:42:31.440 are part of the working class. Functionally, they're sort of 0:42:31.480 --> 0:42:34.480 social concern and the social movement that is bound up 0:42:34.560 --> 0:42:37.239 or known as the sort of peblad or movement, is 0:42:37.280 --> 0:42:40.399 a movement for housing right. Because they are arriving at 0:42:40.400 --> 0:42:44.320 these sort of vacant parts of the city. Um, the 0:42:44.320 --> 0:42:46.640 they bring with them the sort of as you mentioned, 0:42:46.640 --> 0:42:50.880 their own histories of struggle from the countryside, of which 0:42:51.000 --> 0:42:55.040 the sort of main tactic is the toma or seizure right. 0:42:55.080 --> 0:42:56.920 And so what they will do when they arrive in 0:42:57.000 --> 0:42:59.839 these places of land is that they will seize these 0:43:00.000 --> 0:43:04.279 lots and they will erect a structure on it. In 0:43:04.440 --> 0:43:06.560 doing so, then they would use that to stake a 0:43:06.680 --> 0:43:10.120 claim to as a claim of property rights right, as 0:43:10.120 --> 0:43:12.840 a claim for their own proper home and everything that 0:43:12.880 --> 0:43:20.279 would go with it within um, within a city, infrastructure right, utilities, sewage, etcetera. Um, 0:43:20.320 --> 0:43:22.359 that's what they would leverage them as a claim for that. 0:43:22.880 --> 0:43:26.560 And so my project is essentially trying to break down 0:43:26.960 --> 0:43:30.360 this analytic barrier that has separated the popelador from the 0:43:30.440 --> 0:43:34.600 worker in the historiography, specifically in the historiography of things 0:43:34.640 --> 0:43:38.319 like the Cortonas and the popular Unity years during all 0:43:38.400 --> 0:43:41.239 end because as I mentioned, many of these people once 0:43:41.320 --> 0:43:44.279 they're moving to the cities and you know, moving into 0:43:44.280 --> 0:43:48.879 what would be referred to as either complimentos or potionists. Uh, 0:43:48.920 --> 0:43:51.120 you know, they're looking for work, and they're finding work 0:43:51.200 --> 0:43:54.239 at a lot of these factories that are nearby where 0:43:54.239 --> 0:43:57.960 they're moving. Now. In doing so, however, they're coming into 0:43:58.200 --> 0:44:02.200 contact they're sort of mixing. Wi if the older generation 0:44:02.920 --> 0:44:06.359 of migrants that migrated from the north of Chile, right 0:44:06.400 --> 0:44:09.240 from the mining sector in the north of Chile following 0:44:09.239 --> 0:44:12.000 the Great Depression, which is the sort of historical birth 0:44:12.160 --> 0:44:16.480 of the labor movement in Chile, the nitrates sector um 0:44:16.520 --> 0:44:19.239 in the far north of cher Chile, which, following the 0:44:19.239 --> 0:44:23.200 development of sort of synthetic forms of explosives, nitrates are 0:44:23.200 --> 0:44:27.320 not saltpeter specifically, is not as high in demand anymore 0:44:27.680 --> 0:44:30.000 since you have a lot of people migrating to the 0:44:30.040 --> 0:44:32.880 city to begin working in the industries there, right. So 0:44:33.000 --> 0:44:36.319 those sort of older working class who also have their 0:44:36.360 --> 0:44:40.320 own sort of history of struggle, history of tactics, etcetera, 0:44:40.840 --> 0:44:45.720 and this newer form of worker there right are mixing 0:44:45.800 --> 0:44:48.880 and they're sort of mixing in these areas in specific 0:44:48.960 --> 0:44:52.320 and that, uh, to me, is why it's so important 0:44:52.360 --> 0:44:55.160 to think about the Cordons is more than just an 0:44:55.239 --> 0:44:59.160 organization that emerges in the early nineteen seventies and really 0:44:59.200 --> 0:45:02.040 think about him a a space, as a geographic space 0:45:02.560 --> 0:45:07.440 that developed their own unique forms of local culture informed 0:45:07.480 --> 0:45:12.600 by these larger, more macro historical processes. Yeah. That that 0:45:12.600 --> 0:45:16.360 that that seems like a much more I don't know 0:45:16.400 --> 0:45:18.200 if I don't know if productive is the right word, 0:45:18.320 --> 0:45:21.000 though it is, but I think, yeah, I think that 0:45:21.120 --> 0:45:25.400 is a better way of thinking about it than what 0:45:25.480 --> 0:45:29.080 you usually see, because yeah, that that kind of the 0:45:29.320 --> 0:45:32.000 fact that, Yeah, the fact that you have multiple different 0:45:33.640 --> 0:45:36.239 essentially like you have you have multiple difference is like 0:45:36.400 --> 0:45:39.600 sociological classes mixing. You have, you have their tactics sort 0:45:39.640 --> 0:45:44.120 of fusing, and that developing its own culture. That's that's distinct, 0:45:44.239 --> 0:45:48.800 I think from a lot of the you know, because 0:45:49.000 --> 0:45:50.520 this this this is a business a period of time 0:45:50.560 --> 0:45:52.920 like the late nineteen sixies, early seventies is like the 0:45:52.920 --> 0:45:56.319 golden age of the factory occupation. And I think, you know, 0:45:56.320 --> 0:45:59.720 I think you can draw similarities between that in between 0:45:59.719 --> 0:46:03.759 the don'tice, but I think, I don't know. I mean, 0:46:03.800 --> 0:46:06.360 it'll is a version of this that that that I 0:46:06.400 --> 0:46:08.680 know the best, and that one, I guess sort of 0:46:08.719 --> 0:46:10.640 also has a simpilar gynamic of you get you get 0:46:10.640 --> 0:46:13.000 a bunch of that, you have this mixing of of 0:46:13.000 --> 0:46:15.640 sort of the old urban working class, but that you 0:46:15.680 --> 0:46:18.240 have a bunch of um you have this huge labor 0:46:18.239 --> 0:46:20.799 migration from from the south, from the rural areas, that 0:46:20.800 --> 0:46:22.880 that mixes in there. And I'm wondering, I guess, like 0:46:24.640 --> 0:46:26.920 when when you talk about sort of the culture of this, 0:46:27.200 --> 0:46:30.320 how how much of that is something that you think 0:46:31.280 --> 0:46:36.840 is like a distinct product of like this exact configuration 0:46:37.080 --> 0:46:40.080 of of so social class is hitting each other, and 0:46:40.080 --> 0:46:44.480 to what extent it's kind of like a process that 0:46:44.520 --> 0:46:47.400 we've that you find in other places where you have 0:46:49.160 --> 0:46:52.480 you have these sort of market worker like first generation 0:46:52.560 --> 0:46:57.640 market worker basis hitting these sort of older industrial working classes. Yeah. No, 0:46:57.719 --> 0:46:59.320 I think that your spot on, right. I think that 0:46:59.440 --> 0:47:03.400 this is um a larger global history. Right, this is 0:47:03.400 --> 0:47:05.400 a moment in which you are having a lot of 0:47:05.440 --> 0:47:10.000 migration from countryside into the city worldwide. Right, you have 0:47:10.040 --> 0:47:12.720 a lot of French intellectuals at this moment thinking about 0:47:12.760 --> 0:47:14.640 sort of what does it mean that the city is 0:47:14.719 --> 0:47:18.840 perhaps becoming the new focus, the sort of new locusts 0:47:18.880 --> 0:47:21.480 of social movements and social actions. You know, what does 0:47:21.520 --> 0:47:26.080 it mean that the city is dominant over the countryside? Um? 0:47:26.160 --> 0:47:28.440 And things like that. But I think it is different, 0:47:28.560 --> 0:47:33.160 or not necessarily different, but perhaps unique in the Chilean case, um, 0:47:33.400 --> 0:47:38.000 is that this is a you know, you have a 0:47:38.120 --> 0:47:42.399 culture in Chile that is known world over for its 0:47:42.400 --> 0:47:45.840 political culture. Right, everyone at this moment was thinking and 0:47:45.880 --> 0:47:50.040 talking politically, uh, and talking about big you know, grand 0:47:50.120 --> 0:47:54.400 ideas of politics, not just you know, sort of everyday politics, 0:47:54.440 --> 0:47:57.719 but how did everyday politics inform these larger sort of 0:47:57.760 --> 0:48:01.080 social struggles. Right. This is still a moment when socialism 0:48:01.080 --> 0:48:04.399 is on the table, right, Um. And so you have 0:48:04.760 --> 0:48:06.880 you know, not that this is different than other places 0:48:06.960 --> 0:48:09.440 in the world. Clearly, as you mentioned, in Italy, socialism 0:48:09.480 --> 0:48:11.839 is very much still on the table. Communism is very 0:48:11.880 --> 0:48:14.960 much still on the table there as well, um. But 0:48:15.080 --> 0:48:18.879 in Chile, what is different is that there is this 0:48:18.920 --> 0:48:23.640 idea that one could perhaps legislate socialism, right, or that 0:48:23.680 --> 0:48:27.520 one could use the means of democracy to achieve socialism. Right. 0:48:27.560 --> 0:48:30.640 That's what's going to make the Illende government so unique 0:48:31.080 --> 0:48:34.520 in this moment um. But what also makes the courtons 0:48:34.640 --> 0:48:38.759 unique is this sort of relationship between social space and 0:48:38.880 --> 0:48:42.120 physical space in the city. So, for example, the very 0:48:42.160 --> 0:48:45.520 first court zone that emerges in nineteen two Studios Mai 0:48:45.560 --> 0:48:48.400 Poo as I mentioned earlier on the southwest of the city, 0:48:48.440 --> 0:48:51.200 that one, as I mentioned, because it had such close 0:48:51.239 --> 0:48:55.400 contact with the rural sector on that edge, had a 0:48:55.480 --> 0:49:00.439 lot more solidarity between rural laborers and factory laborers, such 0:49:00.480 --> 0:49:03.959 that by nineteen seventy three you have factory labors going 0:49:04.040 --> 0:49:08.719 out of their factory and helping world labors sees their 0:49:08.719 --> 0:49:13.560 properties and hold their properties um away from the landowners 0:49:13.640 --> 0:49:17.440 essentially right and claiming sort of a redistributive um you 0:49:17.480 --> 0:49:19.960 know land for those who work at type of strategy. 0:49:20.360 --> 0:49:23.920 This is say, different from the cordon that my dissertation 0:49:24.000 --> 0:49:27.360 is focused on Facuna Mcana, which, as as I mentioned, 0:49:27.360 --> 0:49:32.239 a much larger segment of popolodors living nearby it, right uh. 0:49:32.280 --> 0:49:35.040 And so you have a much larger solidarity between the 0:49:35.080 --> 0:49:38.680 popolodors and between factory workers. And what makes that even 0:49:38.719 --> 0:49:40.920 more unique in this case is the role of the 0:49:40.960 --> 0:49:43.640 Catholic Church, and this is really one of the sort 0:49:43.680 --> 0:49:46.239 of new things that my dissertation is trying to do 0:49:47.239 --> 0:49:50.759 is what is the role of the Catholic Church here. So, 0:49:50.880 --> 0:49:54.560 for example, of the Catholic Church historically within the and 0:49:54.680 --> 0:49:58.160 within the historiography as well, UM has always been associated 0:49:58.160 --> 0:50:01.160 with the popelodoor movement, right because of this sort of 0:50:01.239 --> 0:50:04.680 connection to the countryside, because of the churches sort of 0:50:05.840 --> 0:50:09.480 you know, missionary kind of work and going out into 0:50:09.520 --> 0:50:13.480 the population, you know, poorer populations, especially following Vatican to 0:50:14.400 --> 0:50:16.960 UM that in which they begin to sort of have 0:50:17.040 --> 0:50:21.399 more outreach into the poor sectors. UM. But it's never 0:50:21.480 --> 0:50:25.920 really seen or rather very few scholars have thought about 0:50:26.160 --> 0:50:29.319 or looked at what does this mean then for those 0:50:29.360 --> 0:50:32.120 individuals who may have lived in a position but who 0:50:32.160 --> 0:50:34.680 worked in a factory. In other words, what was the 0:50:34.760 --> 0:50:39.080 relationship between the sort of social pastoral message of the 0:50:39.200 --> 0:50:43.719 church and the sort of socialism of a factory worker. Uh. 0:50:43.719 --> 0:50:45.799 And in the case of the Aquamacina, there's actually very 0:50:45.800 --> 0:50:50.040 strong links here. So specifically, the San Kayatano parish, which 0:50:50.080 --> 0:50:53.600 is located just to the west of the Corvillone proper Um, 0:50:54.040 --> 0:50:58.640 was was fundamental in helping some of the workers established 0:50:58.680 --> 0:51:01.680 unions h and in the cordon. So, for example, the 0:51:01.719 --> 0:51:05.880 Sumar Textile factory, which was functionally a city unto itself. 0:51:05.920 --> 0:51:10.600 This this textile company had a series of different factories 0:51:10.640 --> 0:51:14.120 within its property, so it had a cotton plant, had 0:51:14.160 --> 0:51:18.120 a nylon plant, a silk plant that had a polyester plant, 0:51:18.480 --> 0:51:21.000 and each of these different plants than each had their 0:51:21.040 --> 0:51:25.719 own um unions. And in Chile, in the labor code 0:51:25.719 --> 0:51:28.440 in Chile from the nineteen thirties, there were two different 0:51:28.440 --> 0:51:32.440 types of unions per factory or per plant. You had 0:51:32.440 --> 0:51:34.640 the industrial union, which we could think of as the 0:51:34.719 --> 0:51:39.120 blue collar worker union, and then you had in platos union, 0:51:39.160 --> 0:51:42.760 which we can think of as a more white collar union. 0:51:42.760 --> 0:51:44.920 These would be the sort of professionals in the factory, 0:51:44.960 --> 0:51:48.759 the sort of technicians, uh, the engineers, right, not so 0:51:48.840 --> 0:51:51.200 much the manual labors, but everyone else in the factory 0:51:51.800 --> 0:51:54.200 and in the case of sum A specifically the cotton 0:51:54.280 --> 0:51:57.919 plant itself. Um in the late nineteen sixties, when they're 0:51:57.920 --> 0:52:00.759 trying to found their union for the first time, they 0:52:00.760 --> 0:52:03.319 don't have anywhere to go to find it, to to 0:52:03.440 --> 0:52:05.759 found it, right, because they can't do it in the 0:52:05.760 --> 0:52:08.840 factory itself, because management, the bosses will crack down on it. 0:52:09.400 --> 0:52:11.640 They don't have their own local yet because they haven't 0:52:11.640 --> 0:52:14.319 founded a union, and so what they ultimately do is 0:52:14.360 --> 0:52:17.239 they reach out to the parish priest in San Kayatano, 0:52:18.120 --> 0:52:20.840 who is you know, who offers them help and in 0:52:20.960 --> 0:52:23.560 doing so offers them a space to hold their first 0:52:23.680 --> 0:52:26.560 union vote. Uh. And that's actually how the Union of 0:52:26.600 --> 0:52:30.040 Sumar gets founded. Sumar will go on to play a 0:52:30.080 --> 0:52:32.680 major role both in the cordonus and then after the 0:52:32.680 --> 0:52:36.279 Cordonus during the dictatorship. It's a it's a very um, 0:52:36.520 --> 0:52:40.680 very important factory uh in this history. Um. But it's 0:52:40.719 --> 0:52:44.359 often overlooked that, you know, the church played a very 0:52:44.400 --> 0:52:47.960 fundamental role in the sort of larger history of the 0:52:47.960 --> 0:52:51.480 working class formation of the Sumar workers. I mean, it 0:52:51.520 --> 0:52:52.920 brings us to one of the things about this period 0:52:52.960 --> 0:52:56.400 that's I guess becoming to be better understood. But I 0:52:56.400 --> 0:52:59.280 think if you're a person who has not spent time 0:53:00.160 --> 0:53:02.799 looking at this might look kind of weird, which is that, Yeah, 0:53:03.280 --> 0:53:05.640 it's just that the Catholic Church in this period in 0:53:05.160 --> 0:53:09.560 a in a lot of Latin America like takes especially 0:53:09.560 --> 0:53:12.399 Adican Tubia like it. It takes this like very hard 0:53:12.520 --> 0:53:16.319 left turn that yeah, I mean has all of these 0:53:16.360 --> 0:53:20.239 causes that like you know, like you get like the 0:53:20.239 --> 0:53:21.880 the Italian version of it, is like you get a 0:53:21.880 --> 0:53:24.840 bunch of priests who are just like like like clergyman 0:53:24.920 --> 0:53:31.200 literally doing kidnappings of like random government officials. And I think, yeah, 0:53:31.200 --> 0:53:42.279 I guess in in in in this context, what what's 0:53:42.280 --> 0:53:44.880 interesting to me, I guess is yeah, like how how much? Okay, So, 0:53:44.960 --> 0:53:48.879 like what is the you're you're talking You're talking about 0:53:48.920 --> 0:53:53.719 the sort of like the sort of pastoralism of this 0:53:53.960 --> 0:53:58.000 the sort of like social gospel message. Is there is 0:53:58.040 --> 0:54:00.479 there like a divide between the way the just working 0:54:00.480 --> 0:54:02.320 in the city and the ways working in the countryside 0:54:02.360 --> 0:54:06.520 or is it just sort of like it's all shifting 0:54:06.719 --> 0:54:11.160 left but they're more the influence of the church is 0:54:11.280 --> 0:54:15.319 larger in among sort of royal and natural people. That's 0:54:15.320 --> 0:54:17.719 actually really good question. And this is actually where I'm 0:54:17.800 --> 0:54:21.319 in the midst of sort of trying to figure this out. Specifically, UM. 0:54:21.600 --> 0:54:23.319 For the past three weeks, I've actually been working in 0:54:23.360 --> 0:54:26.359 the church archives here in Santiago, UM and so that's 0:54:26.400 --> 0:54:29.800 actually the documents that I'm sort of sifting through as 0:54:29.840 --> 0:54:32.120 as we speak. UM. And so one thing I can 0:54:32.120 --> 0:54:34.439 say for certain as of now, what I've been able 0:54:34.480 --> 0:54:37.600 to sort of uncover is that, you know, the Church 0:54:37.719 --> 0:54:41.160 was not homogeneous, and it certainly wasn't monolithic, not in 0:54:41.280 --> 0:54:44.880 Latin America and definitely not in Santiago. Uh, you know, 0:54:44.960 --> 0:54:48.319 in the region itself. Following Vatican to you have the 0:54:48.360 --> 0:54:52.200 Episcopal Conference of Latin America's second conference that takes place 0:54:52.239 --> 0:54:55.560 in the nineteen sixties in Medallian and that's where the 0:54:55.600 --> 0:54:59.399 sort of the idea of liberation theology is born. Right 0:54:59.520 --> 0:55:04.800 falling Median then in Chile, the the Episcopal Conference of 0:55:04.880 --> 0:55:09.759 Chile then is basically tasked with determining a way to 0:55:10.120 --> 0:55:13.359 fit its own pastoralism, its own sort of pastoral plan 0:55:13.960 --> 0:55:17.680 within these new structures that they are a party too, 0:55:17.719 --> 0:55:21.720 because they are part of this larger conference in Latin 0:55:21.760 --> 0:55:24.799 America itself. And so, you know, one thing that I 0:55:24.840 --> 0:55:27.120 have uncovered in the documents is that this is very 0:55:27.200 --> 0:55:31.120 much you begin to see a divide amongst the bishops, 0:55:31.160 --> 0:55:36.040 amongst the church hierarchy here that um are very you know, 0:55:36.680 --> 0:55:40.120 interested in following this new plan of action, but they're 0:55:40.120 --> 0:55:43.200 also wary of some of the discourse that is surrounding this. 0:55:43.640 --> 0:55:45.839 So one example that comes to mind here is the 0:55:45.880 --> 0:55:50.600 idea of liberation itself. Right, we often talk about liberation theology, 0:55:50.760 --> 0:55:52.320 and we often talk about it is that it was 0:55:52.400 --> 0:55:57.200 just sort of accepted wholesale by the church in Latin America. Well, 0:55:57.239 --> 0:56:00.120 a lot of the documents that I'm encountering here are 0:56:00.160 --> 0:56:04.080 there's a great debate over the use of liberations, specifically 0:56:04.120 --> 0:56:09.320 because the idea of liberation is so tied up with Marxism, right, 0:56:09.480 --> 0:56:12.960 and that is, you know, at this time, the Catholic 0:56:13.000 --> 0:56:16.920 Church as a global institution and Marxism as a global 0:56:16.960 --> 0:56:21.920 ideology are scene its antithetical. And here the idea that 0:56:22.040 --> 0:56:25.120 in the Church's view, at least from these documents, the 0:56:25.280 --> 0:56:27.640 idea of Marxism that it's talking about when it's using 0:56:27.680 --> 0:56:31.160 Marxism is very much the Soviet Union, Right, It's very 0:56:31.239 --> 0:56:35.040 much the sort of atheistic approach to the church to 0:56:35.200 --> 0:56:38.480 religion that comes out of the early form of Marxism 0:56:38.560 --> 0:56:42.719 Leninism from early twentieth century. And so there's a great 0:56:42.719 --> 0:56:46.000 debate on whether or not to use liberation. And ultimately, 0:56:46.040 --> 0:56:50.040 you know, those supporting this discourse went out um and 0:56:50.040 --> 0:56:53.480 and it is decided that liberation will be the words 0:56:53.760 --> 0:56:57.480 and the sort of discourse that the parish priests UM 0:56:57.760 --> 0:57:00.440 will use. But the other big thing that comes out 0:57:00.480 --> 0:57:03.000 of this in addition to this sort of discourse of liberation, 0:57:03.520 --> 0:57:08.839 is this new idea of UM Catholic based communities. Right, 0:57:09.120 --> 0:57:13.720 is this whole new framework for UM sort of understanding 0:57:14.120 --> 0:57:17.520 a Christian community. Right. Prior to this innovation of the 0:57:17.560 --> 0:57:21.400 base community, you know, a Christian community was defined by 0:57:21.440 --> 0:57:23.720 the hierarchy of the church. Right, you have the sort 0:57:23.720 --> 0:57:27.080 of congregation, you have your parishes, you have the different 0:57:27.400 --> 0:57:32.959 UM sort of structural and bureaucratic UH designations that sort 0:57:32.960 --> 0:57:36.280 of link from a parish upward UM to the sort 0:57:36.280 --> 0:57:40.400 of church hierarchy itself. But the based community essentially is 0:57:40.440 --> 0:57:44.360 saying that, you know, wherever a few people gather and 0:57:44.400 --> 0:57:48.000 are studying the Word of God or reading scripture or 0:57:48.200 --> 0:57:51.720 having theological debates, that that should be considered, you know, 0:57:52.080 --> 0:57:55.280 part of the church UM should be considered that part 0:57:55.280 --> 0:57:57.800 of the church. And so in that sense we can 0:57:57.800 --> 0:58:00.880 look at sasan Kayatano parish and the work that it's 0:58:00.960 --> 0:58:03.880 doing with workers and a sum Our factory and sort 0:58:03.920 --> 0:58:05.560 of this has me thinking about, you know, what does 0:58:05.560 --> 0:58:08.600 it mean you know, what do these based communities look 0:58:08.640 --> 0:58:11.520 like in practice? Is it possible for us to conceive 0:58:12.240 --> 0:58:15.960 of workers who are reaching out to their local priest 0:58:16.360 --> 0:58:21.200 for assistance as perhaps their own Christian based community or furthermore, 0:58:21.200 --> 0:58:23.680 you know, at this time in Chile, in addition to 0:58:23.720 --> 0:58:27.360 the leftist political parties the socialist and the communist, which 0:58:27.480 --> 0:58:30.720 is you know, a majority of workers, the Christian Democrats 0:58:30.760 --> 0:58:34.280 are also a large force. Right in nineteen sixty four, 0:58:34.520 --> 0:58:38.200 President at What Pray is elected as a Christian Democrat 0:58:38.520 --> 0:58:42.520 and he's the sort of what will initiate a process 0:58:42.520 --> 0:58:47.040 that will culminate with Allende's election in nineteen seventy UM, 0:58:47.080 --> 0:58:50.000 and by that I mean he initiates what he refers 0:58:50.000 --> 0:58:53.120 as to a revolution in liberty UM, which is sort 0:58:53.160 --> 0:58:57.800 of a communitarian reformism that is essentially seen as perhaps 0:58:57.880 --> 0:59:02.880 forestalling Marxist revolution, Socialist revolution from taking place, but it's 0:59:02.920 --> 0:59:07.600 incredibly popular amongst working class and workers UM. And the 0:59:07.680 --> 0:59:11.840 Christian Democrat party itself was a very wide ranging party 0:59:11.920 --> 0:59:15.720 that encompassed right wing elements but also left wing elements. 0:59:16.160 --> 0:59:17.600 Can we can we talk a bit a bit more 0:59:17.640 --> 0:59:20.280 about like what the Christian Christian Democrats are because this 0:59:20.320 --> 0:59:23.880 is a thing that like doesn't really exist anymore, but 0:59:24.440 --> 0:59:28.520 was I think like a very important player. Like I mean, 0:59:28.560 --> 0:59:31.120 there's there's there's very powerful topocratic parties and you're upre's 0:59:31.160 --> 0:59:34.240 very powerful Chusian depocratic parties like across Latin America. Yeah, 0:59:34.240 --> 0:59:35.760 can we can we talk a bit about like what 0:59:35.960 --> 0:59:39.200 that is and how that's different from like, you know, 0:59:39.240 --> 0:59:42.280 how it's different from just like your your generic your 0:59:42.280 --> 0:59:45.479 generic sort of socialist party, and how it's different even 0:59:45.520 --> 0:59:47.520 from your sort of like I don't know, you're like 0:59:47.600 --> 0:59:50.720 labor party social democrats. Yeah, no, I mean this is 0:59:50.880 --> 0:59:52.680 this is a great question, and you're right, this isn't 0:59:52.720 --> 0:59:55.200 something that is sort of exists in the present moment. 0:59:55.240 --> 0:59:58.440 So it does seem very foreign to us. Um. But 0:59:58.520 --> 1:00:00.800 really with the sort of way or that the Christian 1:00:00.800 --> 1:00:05.360 Democrats make is that you know, in theory, they agree 1:00:05.600 --> 1:00:09.800 for the need for structural change, right in theory, the 1:00:09.880 --> 1:00:16.040 alleviation of poverty, a more a more just distribution of wealth, right, 1:00:16.240 --> 1:00:19.000 But their ideas of justice and things, and this is 1:00:19.000 --> 1:00:21.760 where the Christianity part of the Christian Democrat comes in, right, 1:00:21.880 --> 1:00:25.840 is that it is justice as understood in a Christian 1:00:25.920 --> 1:00:29.560 sense of justice, right, not in a sort of more 1:00:29.720 --> 1:00:33.640 radical egalitarian sense of justice. That's stay a socialist or 1:00:33.680 --> 1:00:36.600 a communist would believe in, you know. So, for a 1:00:36.600 --> 1:00:39.440 socialist or a communist, the sort of motor of history 1:00:39.520 --> 1:00:42.600 is class struggle. Right. For a Christian democrat, the motor 1:00:42.680 --> 1:00:46.520 of history is God and his son Jesus Christ. Right, 1:00:46.560 --> 1:00:49.160 And that is the sort of would be I guess 1:00:49.200 --> 1:00:51.400 you could think of as the main difference. And then 1:00:51.440 --> 1:00:55.440 how that plays out in practical terms would be in 1:00:55.480 --> 1:00:58.160 a for a communist, for a socialist, right, you want 1:00:58.240 --> 1:01:02.120 a sort of radical communist some dictatorship of the proletariat. 1:01:02.640 --> 1:01:07.000 These types of forms are very stagist movement through history. 1:01:07.040 --> 1:01:09.640 For a Christian democrat, however, it's much more of a 1:01:09.640 --> 1:01:14.840 communitarian ethic. Right, It's much more of a harmonization between say, 1:01:14.880 --> 1:01:19.520 the bourgeoisie and the proletariat, rather than an overthrowing and 1:01:19.560 --> 1:01:23.600 an eradication of the bourgeoisie by the proletariat, as it 1:01:23.640 --> 1:01:27.000 would be for say a socialist or a communist. Yeah, 1:01:27.000 --> 1:01:29.360 and I guess that that's something I want to like. 1:01:29.600 --> 1:01:32.480 I want to move a bit talking about all end 1:01:32.560 --> 1:01:36.200 a briefly, because I think that's an interesting one of 1:01:36.200 --> 1:01:38.360 the things you're talking about earlier is ill End talking 1:01:38.360 --> 1:01:40.800 about Okay, well we can have a democratic path of socialism. 1:01:40.840 --> 1:01:44.760 And what's what's very interesting to me about both Allende 1:01:45.000 --> 1:01:47.440 and what's happening in the Cordonas is that like, okay, 1:01:47.440 --> 1:01:49.720 so like that that that is a that idea has 1:01:49.720 --> 1:01:51.560 been around for a very long time, and like there 1:01:51.560 --> 1:01:55.400 are a lot of people who take power who are like, okay, 1:01:55.440 --> 1:01:58.320 we're taking an amocratic path of socialism. And then you know, 1:01:58.400 --> 1:02:01.120 like what a lot of whim are Like Germany right 1:02:01.200 --> 1:02:04.440 is ruled by by the German Social Democratic Party, and 1:02:04.440 --> 1:02:06.760 it's like, well you look at what they do and 1:02:07.120 --> 1:02:10.320 they're not really like socialist NG they're most I mean, 1:02:10.400 --> 1:02:12.280 you know, they're they're they're they're doing they're doing things 1:02:12.360 --> 1:02:15.920 like they're doing things like welfare reform. But that's a 1:02:16.120 --> 1:02:18.520 very different thing. Well, and you know, and you can 1:02:18.520 --> 1:02:20.560 see like the Labor Party in in in the UK, 1:02:20.680 --> 1:02:23.760 for example, well like okay, well the nationalized industries, right, 1:02:23.800 --> 1:02:27.920 but you you don't see the kind of movements against 1:02:28.040 --> 1:02:31.440 like the the you don't see the kind of movement 1:02:31.440 --> 1:02:33.640 against property and that the movement against sort of like 1:02:35.680 --> 1:02:38.680 like you don't see an actual attempt to like eliminate 1:02:38.760 --> 1:02:41.000 which was he as a class in the same way 1:02:41.040 --> 1:02:42.560 that you do about Chile. And so I was wondering, like, 1:02:42.640 --> 1:02:46.480 what what makes like, what was it about this moment 1:02:46.680 --> 1:02:51.840 that someone who claim that actually comes into power and 1:02:52.240 --> 1:02:54.320 starts doing it, and starts doing in a way that's 1:02:54.840 --> 1:03:00.680 not just the sort of like you know when most 1:03:01.960 --> 1:03:04.760 of the time when someone nationalizes something, right, it's okay. 1:03:04.800 --> 1:03:08.240 So instead of instead of having a boss, that is, 1:03:09.920 --> 1:03:11.640 instead of having a boss whose job it is to 1:03:11.840 --> 1:03:14.080 like make money for the stock market, you have a 1:03:14.120 --> 1:03:15.720 boss who works for the state, and there there there's 1:03:15.720 --> 1:03:18.680 there's there's very little sort of like structural change in 1:03:18.800 --> 1:03:21.240 how and how the bureaucracy has run. There's no change. 1:03:21.240 --> 1:03:25.520 And like your your individual relation to your boss does 1:03:25.560 --> 1:03:31.160 not change. He's still your boss, and that isn't what 1:03:31.240 --> 1:03:35.200 happens in Chile, in in in the in the same way. Yeah, 1:03:35.200 --> 1:03:41.320 I'm interested, why why why? Why this looks different here? 1:03:41.560 --> 1:03:44.240 I guess Yeah, No, I think this is a great question, 1:03:44.360 --> 1:03:46.720 you know. And and so to to get to end 1:03:46.760 --> 1:03:50.400 a it is imperative that we start with Fray in 1:03:50.520 --> 1:03:52.880 nineteen sixty four, and in some senses we can start 1:03:52.920 --> 1:03:56.680 even in ninety seven, which was End's first attempt at 1:03:56.760 --> 1:04:00.360 running for president. At this time i End is running 1:04:00.520 --> 1:04:03.920 UM as essentially the last gasp, you could say, of 1:04:04.000 --> 1:04:06.720 the Popular Front which emerged in the nineteen thirties and 1:04:06.880 --> 1:04:10.520 into the nineteen forties and had successfully united a large 1:04:10.520 --> 1:04:14.080 swath of the political parties in Chile. And this is 1:04:14.120 --> 1:04:18.040 what led to that earlier moment of industrialization, largely through 1:04:18.200 --> 1:04:22.120 the sort of policy known as imports substitution industrialization, when 1:04:22.120 --> 1:04:25.840 which you know, the national industries would be built, they 1:04:25.840 --> 1:04:29.960 would be protected via tariffs, price controls, and others that 1:04:29.960 --> 1:04:33.080 would stimulate local growth to produce products that would have 1:04:33.120 --> 1:04:38.360 otherwise been imported. However, by the late nineteen fifties, things 1:04:38.360 --> 1:04:41.600 have begun to bottleneck right, largely in the Chilean case, 1:04:41.600 --> 1:04:44.480 because a lot of the countryside is still under control 1:04:44.560 --> 1:04:47.720 of the Latin Fundo of Grand Estate, right, and which 1:04:47.760 --> 1:04:51.160 means that productivity isn't necessarily where it should be UM. 1:04:51.240 --> 1:04:54.640 But it also means that the labor force that's sort 1:04:54.640 --> 1:04:57.880 of stuck on the land as well isn't available then 1:04:58.040 --> 1:05:01.560 for the development of capital as in industry right, and 1:05:01.600 --> 1:05:04.040 the capital goods are what you need to really jump 1:05:04.160 --> 1:05:08.200 start industry whole sale. What Chila does really well is 1:05:08.560 --> 1:05:12.680 that sort of in a mediary phase of making goods 1:05:12.720 --> 1:05:16.920 for individual consumption, right, things of things of that nature. Uh. 1:05:16.960 --> 1:05:20.440 And so what End does in seven is essentially trying 1:05:20.440 --> 1:05:25.960 to first run on a platform of industrialization and to 1:05:26.120 --> 1:05:30.000 fix inflation, right Uh. And he narrowly loses. He just 1:05:30.040 --> 1:05:34.000 barely loses the election. In nineteen fifty seven, Hill who 1:05:34.000 --> 1:05:37.840 wins is Alessandri wins. Uh. And he will essentially adopt 1:05:37.840 --> 1:05:43.840 a very classical liberal approach, free market reforms, repression of 1:05:43.920 --> 1:05:47.440 labor in some senses, freezing of any sort of gains 1:05:47.440 --> 1:05:51.720 of the labor movement, et cetera. This ultimately does not work. Right. 1:05:51.920 --> 1:05:54.880 And so in nineteen sixty four, you know, Shaker, you 1:05:55.000 --> 1:05:58.680 have calls then for a more revolutionary approach. Well. Also, 1:05:58.720 --> 1:06:01.800 what's happening in en sixty or right as we're now 1:06:01.880 --> 1:06:04.640 in the wake of the Cuban Revolution which has taken place, 1:06:04.960 --> 1:06:11.080 which has put the America's as a hemispheric designation unnoticed 1:06:11.160 --> 1:06:14.440 that now it is possible to have uh, sort of 1:06:14.600 --> 1:06:20.600 a revolution via insurrection via guerilla warfare be successful, right, 1:06:20.640 --> 1:06:23.680 and not only be successful, but be successful in defeating 1:06:24.080 --> 1:06:27.920 the hedgemon of the hemisphere, the United States. And so 1:06:28.000 --> 1:06:29.920 what the United States will then do is launched the 1:06:29.960 --> 1:06:33.280 Alliance through Progress, which is essentially a way of funneling 1:06:33.360 --> 1:06:37.560 money into reformist minded governments as a way to appease 1:06:37.880 --> 1:06:41.720 these calls for revolution m but prevent a sort of 1:06:41.760 --> 1:06:44.959 Marxist revolution from taking place. So in the case of Chile, 1:06:45.120 --> 1:06:50.040 the Alliance through Progress will funnel many, many amounts of 1:06:50.080 --> 1:06:55.040 dollars into the Fray administration. UM and Frey wins the 1:06:56.080 --> 1:06:59.120 election handily. Now there's a great debate to be had 1:06:59.120 --> 1:07:01.720 on whether or not the UH or whether the involvement 1:07:01.720 --> 1:07:03.640 of the c i A and a sort of scare 1:07:03.680 --> 1:07:07.280 tactic and fearmongering campaign went on in the nineteen sixty 1:07:07.280 --> 1:07:10.439 four campaign. Unfortunately, we just don't have the documents yet 1:07:11.000 --> 1:07:13.840 UM for this period, like we do for the nineteen seventies, 1:07:13.880 --> 1:07:16.800 then the lead up to the coup in the nineteen seventies. UM. 1:07:16.840 --> 1:07:19.000 You know, hopefully one day we'll have a better sense 1:07:19.040 --> 1:07:23.040 of really what went on that explains such a lopsided 1:07:23.120 --> 1:07:27.120 defeat of Agenda in nineteen sixty four. UM, So Frey 1:07:27.160 --> 1:07:29.360 will come to power in nineteen sixty four, and actually 1:07:29.400 --> 1:07:32.960 the agrarian reform in Chile will begin under the Christian 1:07:32.960 --> 1:07:37.200 Democrats under phrase administration financed in large part by the 1:07:37.200 --> 1:07:41.800 Alliance Progress UM. Also the nationalization of copper, which will 1:07:41.840 --> 1:07:45.080 be fully nationalized under all End in the nineteen seventies, 1:07:45.400 --> 1:07:48.000 but it actually exists in a state of so called 1:07:48.040 --> 1:07:52.280 negotiated nationalization under Frey, or what Frey would refer to 1:07:52.320 --> 1:07:56.360 as the Chileanization of copper, in which Chile would take 1:07:56.400 --> 1:08:01.120 a very small right fifty one, you know, percent controlling 1:08:01.520 --> 1:08:05.440 in the copper companies UM, but would still have large 1:08:05.800 --> 1:08:10.360 the American copper companies Anaconda and Kennicott specifically, would still 1:08:10.440 --> 1:08:14.200 be the ones responsible for running the operations themselves. That's 1:08:14.240 --> 1:08:20.719 that's an interesting I I guess weird historical thing because 1:08:20.720 --> 1:08:22.840 I know, okay, so like this, there have been a 1:08:22.840 --> 1:08:25.040 lot of times where the CIA has supported lander form, 1:08:25.080 --> 1:08:26.720 which is very weird, like that they do it in 1:08:27.120 --> 1:08:30.360 Japan for example, and you know it's seen as seen 1:08:30.400 --> 1:08:31.640 as one of these things. It's like, okay, well we 1:08:31.680 --> 1:08:33.960 have to do lander form in order to like stop 1:08:33.960 --> 1:08:35.920 and stop an actual revolution for happening. So we'll do 1:08:35.960 --> 1:08:38.200 a sort of capitalist version of it. It's interesting to 1:08:38.240 --> 1:08:40.599 me that Chile does it because I feel like that 1:08:40.600 --> 1:08:44.080 that's not something that happens in most of the other 1:08:44.280 --> 1:08:47.679 Latin American states with the CIA gets involved. Um yeah, 1:08:47.720 --> 1:08:49.760 well it's also I mean, the Alliance for Progress is 1:08:49.840 --> 1:08:53.160 official government policy. Um. You know, it will be the 1:08:53.160 --> 1:08:56.080 one that starts the alliance and then it will continue 1:08:56.120 --> 1:09:00.800 into the LBJ administration following Kennedy's assassination. Um. And so 1:09:00.920 --> 1:09:04.680 that is um. And you're right that regionally, the Appliance 1:09:04.760 --> 1:09:07.720 for Progress is largely a failure. There are, however, a 1:09:07.720 --> 1:09:11.040 few successes, and Chile was at the time held up 1:09:11.080 --> 1:09:13.559 as one of the successes and has somewhat been born 1:09:13.640 --> 1:09:17.080 out as one of the successes insofar as it is 1:09:17.080 --> 1:09:21.759 what initiates Thegarian reform in Chile. So so I guess 1:09:23.200 --> 1:09:27.960 so okay, So what you're saying is that there are 1:09:28.160 --> 1:09:31.000 there there's there's there's a specific group of parties at 1:09:31.000 --> 1:09:33.040 the US backs at this period who are trying to 1:09:33.160 --> 1:09:35.439 do this sort of who are trying to do some 1:09:35.520 --> 1:09:39.400 kind of reform, um like, who are trying to do 1:09:39.400 --> 1:09:41.760 this sort of like the class collaboration reform to save 1:09:41.760 --> 1:09:45.479 off revolution thing. And then I guess the like later 1:09:45.560 --> 1:09:49.680 policy becomes just do the do kind of insurgency on 1:09:49.680 --> 1:09:53.600 behalf of the landowners. Yeah, I mean the way the 1:09:53.800 --> 1:09:57.479 phrase you know, as the phrase administration continues, it becomes 1:09:57.479 --> 1:10:03.280 clear that his sort of reformist approaches is simply not working. Um. 1:10:03.479 --> 1:10:06.280 One is just not working on a macro economic level. Right. 1:10:06.360 --> 1:10:09.000 Inflation is still happening, which has sort of been the 1:10:09.680 --> 1:10:12.640 you know, enemy number one of the Chilean economy for 1:10:12.760 --> 1:10:14.960 most of the twentieth century. Right, most of the twentieth 1:10:14.960 --> 1:10:20.519 century in Chile is presidential administrations and economic economists, economic 1:10:20.560 --> 1:10:25.560 advisors are all struggling to understand how to control inflation. Um. 1:10:25.600 --> 1:10:28.080 And you know, Frey thinks that they can figure it 1:10:28.120 --> 1:10:31.679 out via these sort of reforms, via the gray in reform. 1:10:32.200 --> 1:10:35.040 Be it the sort of chileanization of the great minding 1:10:35.080 --> 1:10:38.760 wealth of the country. Uh, in terms of factory or 1:10:38.840 --> 1:10:42.400 industry level. They essentially proposed this idea of sort of 1:10:42.439 --> 1:10:46.200 workers enterprises that is somewhat modeled off the Yugoslavian model, 1:10:46.760 --> 1:10:51.200 which is a much more communitarian um approach. Right, as 1:10:51.200 --> 1:10:54.439 you were saying earlier, you know, the boss is still there. 1:10:54.920 --> 1:10:58.360 Workers do have a stake in control of the enterprise. UM, 1:10:58.400 --> 1:11:01.240 but private properties still exists, so I guess still the 1:11:01.280 --> 1:11:04.600 boss like with that, Like how to what extent is it? 1:11:04.760 --> 1:11:08.479 Like if you have this on a scale of like 1:11:08.840 --> 1:11:10.960 on the one hand, on like the the extreme end 1:11:11.040 --> 1:11:13.960 you have there's like nothing or maybe workers can own 1:11:13.960 --> 1:11:15.639 a share of a company. And on the other end 1:11:15.840 --> 1:11:18.400 is like I don't know, like like in nineteen thirties, 1:11:18.800 --> 1:11:23.479 like like seven like anarchist commune in Spain, Like how 1:11:24.120 --> 1:11:26.280 how how much control do they actually like I don't know, 1:11:26.280 --> 1:11:28.360 like is this closer to something like the sort of 1:11:28.400 --> 1:11:31.680 like German code code determination system, Like how close to 1:11:31.680 --> 1:11:33.760 like Yugoslavia? Is this? Sorry, I'm trying to get a 1:11:33.760 --> 1:11:37.280 sense of like yeah, this is a lot of this. No, 1:11:37.320 --> 1:11:39.200 this is fascinating. In fact, one of my sort of 1:11:39.280 --> 1:11:42.760 dream projects or sort of dream archives to get into 1:11:42.800 --> 1:11:46.919 an ultimately be the Yugoslavian archives or former Yugoslavian archives, 1:11:47.080 --> 1:11:49.719 because there is a lot of collaboration picking place between 1:11:49.760 --> 1:11:54.360 the Yugoslavian Left and Chileans at this time. UM. The 1:11:54.400 --> 1:11:56.599 problem is that a lot of this never really gets 1:11:56.600 --> 1:11:59.280 off the ground in practice. It is a lot of 1:11:59.479 --> 1:12:02.480 sort of things that exist on paper, reforms that are proposed, 1:12:02.800 --> 1:12:05.880 but reforms that never really get implemented, which then has 1:12:05.920 --> 1:12:10.759 the effect of heightening expectations but not delivering on the goods, 1:12:11.120 --> 1:12:14.719 which pushes people further to the left right and pushes 1:12:14.760 --> 1:12:18.120 them to demand a more radical solution, which they find 1:12:18.200 --> 1:12:21.920 in the nineteen seventy campaign of Salva end Right. And 1:12:21.960 --> 1:12:25.320 this is what really gets us to the to Ayends victory, 1:12:25.360 --> 1:12:28.920 which is the sort of failures of the Free administration 1:12:29.040 --> 1:12:34.679 to achieve the sort of revolution in liberty that he promises. Also, 1:12:34.760 --> 1:12:38.280 the near the end of the Free administration, there's a 1:12:38.360 --> 1:12:40.920 massacre that takes place in the south of Chile in 1:12:41.000 --> 1:12:46.120 part the month UM that really UM solidifies or if 1:12:46.120 --> 1:12:49.960 you will, sort of the final push um or loss 1:12:50.000 --> 1:12:53.040 of legitimacy for the Fray administration, as well as a 1:12:53.400 --> 1:12:58.320 pushing the sort of more popular classes to um be 1:12:58.400 --> 1:13:01.040 opposed to the Frame administration via hosts the sort of 1:13:00.680 --> 1:13:05.960 the Christian democratic message of reformantism and decides to sort 1:13:05.960 --> 1:13:09.479 of give revolution a chance. Uh. And it's into that 1:13:09.640 --> 1:13:15.400 moment that Salvador Allende reforms UM. The coalition that you know, 1:13:15.479 --> 1:13:18.400 the original coalition that he runs on was was referred 1:13:18.400 --> 1:13:21.080 to as the frapp Um. He forms a sort of 1:13:21.160 --> 1:13:24.439 new coalition in the lead up to the nineteen seventy election, 1:13:24.479 --> 1:13:27.400 which would be the Popular Unity Coalition UH. And it's 1:13:27.400 --> 1:13:31.360 a coalition of leftist parties, primarily the Socialists of which 1:13:31.360 --> 1:13:34.800 I end is a member, and the Communists. And here 1:13:34.840 --> 1:13:37.800 it's important to remember in the Chilean case that the 1:13:37.880 --> 1:13:41.800 Socialists are actually to the left of the communists. Um. 1:13:42.000 --> 1:13:47.600 The Communists are a much more um reserved approach to revolution, 1:13:47.840 --> 1:13:51.960 and by which I mean they're very much um going 1:13:52.000 --> 1:13:54.200 to sort of have the you know, they're they're holding 1:13:54.200 --> 1:13:57.200 the party line right there behold into the common tern right. 1:13:57.240 --> 1:13:59.320 But they are also very much in line with the 1:13:59.600 --> 1:14:04.400 I in days, with the day's view of legislating socialism. 1:14:04.520 --> 1:14:06.880 That's I guess. Another interesting aspect of this is, like 1:14:07.040 --> 1:14:09.240 that's something I think also doesn't get discussed very much, 1:14:09.240 --> 1:14:12.880 which is this period where like a lot of the 1:14:13.400 --> 1:14:16.080 like that that was the party discipline being opposed from 1:14:16.080 --> 1:14:19.120 Moscow for like a lot of this period like is 1:14:19.160 --> 1:14:21.800 explicitly telling them not to like explicitly saying don't do 1:14:21.840 --> 1:14:27.120 a revolution, like hold and stabilize the situation. Um. Is 1:14:27.120 --> 1:14:31.200 that the case like so I because I I okay, 1:14:31.240 --> 1:14:33.400 this is this is again going back to me knowing Italy, 1:14:33.439 --> 1:14:38.200 but I know Chile. That is that something like how 1:14:38.320 --> 1:14:40.600 how long has that been policy? Frow is? Is Is that 1:14:40.640 --> 1:14:43.920 like an old is that old popular front like stuff 1:14:43.960 --> 1:14:46.880 from them? Or is this is has it like because 1:14:46.880 --> 1:14:48.479 I know like like the U S policity Like so 1:14:48.520 --> 1:14:51.120 it's just like the Moscow line flips back and forth 1:14:51.400 --> 1:14:56.360 somewhat randomly depending on like what it's going, don't flips 1:14:56.360 --> 1:14:58.840 a lot, especially in that that nine three period. And 1:14:58.840 --> 1:15:01.000 and you know, once they established the idea of the 1:15:01.000 --> 1:15:04.040 Popular Front, that sort of does become the line. The 1:15:04.240 --> 1:15:08.880 big change takes place in UM. There is a meeting 1:15:08.920 --> 1:15:11.400 of the Common Turn in nineteen fifty seven, and that's 1:15:11.400 --> 1:15:16.360 when the idea of individual national roads to socialism becomes 1:15:16.400 --> 1:15:19.640 the official party line of the Common Tern And that 1:15:19.800 --> 1:15:23.439 is what then authorizes communist parties across the world to 1:15:23.640 --> 1:15:26.479 seek their own routes to socialism. Right, so it no 1:15:26.520 --> 1:15:30.439 longer has to be a Leninist insurrectional model, It no 1:15:30.520 --> 1:15:34.280 longer has to be a Cuban revolutionary model. UM. It 1:15:34.280 --> 1:15:36.960 can be its own. So that when allend A proposes 1:15:37.560 --> 1:15:42.360 this pluralist way of reaching socialism. That's what the communists 1:15:42.360 --> 1:15:46.320 will link to UM and and really that's what they'll 1:15:46.400 --> 1:15:49.320 hitch their wagon too, and will will tow that line 1:15:50.000 --> 1:15:53.160 throughout the three years, throughout the thousand days of the 1:15:53.160 --> 1:15:56.719 Allenda government, which will then ultimately put them into conflict 1:15:56.760 --> 1:16:00.040 with the left wing of the Socialist Party, which is 1:16:00.040 --> 1:16:03.400 pushing for a much more radical um a radical ship. 1:16:03.479 --> 1:16:05.719 And that's really the sort of context that the cordonate 1:16:05.760 --> 1:16:08.600 is emerge out of in nineteen seventy two, is the 1:16:08.640 --> 1:16:14.599 sort of growing factionalism, growing secretary sectarianism within the ruling 1:16:14.600 --> 1:16:20.519 coalition of the Popular Unity. Yeah, and I guess this 1:16:20.520 --> 1:16:22.640 this is already going a lot of some of the 1:16:22.640 --> 1:16:27.639 way to explaining why this looks different than a lot 1:16:27.680 --> 1:16:30.559 of the other sort of like a lot of the 1:16:30.560 --> 1:16:34.320 other sort of socialist coalition governments you see around the world. 1:16:34.320 --> 1:16:36.200 I mean, I mean, yeah, I mean partially just yeah, 1:16:36.200 --> 1:16:39.680 the influence of Yugoslavia is fascinating to me, because I 1:16:39.680 --> 1:16:42.280 mean that explained, That explains so much, right, Like that, 1:16:42.280 --> 1:16:44.760 that explains why there's a sort of democratic component to it, 1:16:45.040 --> 1:16:48.160 even in even in the sort of reformist periods and 1:16:48.200 --> 1:16:50.920 it explains why the expectation is that and not the 1:16:50.960 --> 1:16:53.080 sort of like even not even like like Soviet style 1:16:53.160 --> 1:16:55.760 nationalization absolutely does not look like that. Yeah, so you're 1:16:55.760 --> 1:17:00.519 you're right that you know, these these multifaceted, multi layer 1:17:00.600 --> 1:17:04.599 influences globally as well as locally within Chile as well 1:17:04.600 --> 1:17:08.920 as regionally, UM produce something that is the first time 1:17:09.560 --> 1:17:14.519 that UM so, for example, in victory, is the first 1:17:14.560 --> 1:17:19.200 time that an openly Marxist candidate will be elected president 1:17:19.280 --> 1:17:23.880 of a nation, elected democratically in a free and fair 1:17:23.920 --> 1:17:28.719 election that is not contested UM or anything like that. 1:17:28.840 --> 1:17:31.679 Now that said, he wins by plurality, he only wins 1:17:31.720 --> 1:17:35.760 by about in the thirty percent range UM. Now, historically 1:17:35.760 --> 1:17:39.320 in Chile, a plurality victory is not a problem because 1:17:39.439 --> 1:17:43.160 you demanded to the Congress, and the Congress typically will 1:17:43.240 --> 1:17:47.680 just rubber stamp the victory I end. However, you know, 1:17:47.680 --> 1:17:51.600 there's a lot of apprehension about what he means for 1:17:51.760 --> 1:17:55.080 the country, what he means for the sort of landed deletes, 1:17:55.160 --> 1:17:57.799 what he means for the sort of oligarchs that control 1:17:57.920 --> 1:18:01.439 the grand monopolies and she they uh, and so there 1:18:01.520 --> 1:18:03.840 is a lot of tension. Well, this is also then 1:18:03.920 --> 1:18:09.200 where the actions the CIA backfire. UM. So the work 1:18:09.240 --> 1:18:12.360 of the National Security Archive has done great work for 1:18:12.600 --> 1:18:15.720 uncovering the sort of two track plan that Nixon and 1:18:15.760 --> 1:18:19.640 Kissinger have for subverting the election of Allende and then 1:18:19.720 --> 1:18:23.360 ultimately preventing him from assuming power. And part of those 1:18:23.400 --> 1:18:28.080 tracks was to sort of foment some sort of crisis. UH. 1:18:28.120 --> 1:18:31.560 And so the crisis that they attempt to foment involves 1:18:31.640 --> 1:18:36.479 General Renee Schneider, and it is the attempt is that 1:18:36.520 --> 1:18:40.200 they're going to kidnap him and hold him hostage UM 1:18:40.240 --> 1:18:42.639 and use that as a way to prevent Allende from 1:18:42.680 --> 1:18:46.280 coming to power. Well, the problem is that goes horribly wrong. 1:18:46.760 --> 1:18:50.080 The people that are carrying out to kidnapping are clearly 1:18:50.280 --> 1:18:54.200 unprepared for what happens. UM. Things can go haywire and 1:18:54.320 --> 1:18:59.160 Schneider is assassinated, He's shot UM accidentally and layer it 1:18:59.240 --> 1:19:02.960 dies UH. And the problem then becomes, you know, the 1:19:03.040 --> 1:19:05.920 nation is horrified, The Chilean nation is horrified at this 1:19:06.479 --> 1:19:11.160 UM took place. And as a result, then UM ranks 1:19:11.200 --> 1:19:13.880 are closed around by Ende and it has decided that 1:19:13.960 --> 1:19:17.880 they will approve his UM candidacy, his election and that 1:19:17.960 --> 1:19:21.680 he will be affirmed as the president. Um. And you know, 1:19:21.760 --> 1:19:24.680 also what's happening in the background during the election and 1:19:24.760 --> 1:19:26.680 during the lead up to that vote is that the 1:19:26.680 --> 1:19:29.840 Popular Unity coalition has its program. You know, what we 1:19:29.880 --> 1:19:33.800 would think of as a campaign um sort of platform um. 1:19:33.880 --> 1:19:37.280 But part of the platform in the Populunities case was 1:19:37.439 --> 1:19:39.400 what they referred to as the sort of basic agreement 1:19:39.760 --> 1:19:42.960 between the coalition and the both the people of Chile 1:19:43.040 --> 1:19:45.879 but also the political system, which in this basic agreement 1:19:45.960 --> 1:19:48.000 is sort of what we've been discussing this whole time, 1:19:48.040 --> 1:19:54.040 which is that end would not change fundamentally the political system. Right, 1:19:54.479 --> 1:19:59.400 any sort of nationalizations, any sort of economic restructuring that 1:19:59.439 --> 1:20:02.320 they would at she for that they would try to 1:20:02.360 --> 1:20:06.559 achieve in Chile would be taken, would take place, would 1:20:06.560 --> 1:20:09.840 be used or one through the halls of concress. Right, 1:20:09.960 --> 1:20:14.759 everything would be legislated. Everything would still be from main um, 1:20:14.800 --> 1:20:18.400 the sort of Chilean government as normal. Right. This is 1:20:18.400 --> 1:20:21.680 where you get ends famous phrase that the revolution is 1:20:21.720 --> 1:20:23.960 going to be with infant us and be tinto right 1:20:24.040 --> 1:20:27.880 with meat pies and red wine, um, which means, you know, 1:20:27.920 --> 1:20:31.800 it's essentially not going to be a revolution of deprivation right, 1:20:32.120 --> 1:20:35.760 it's not going to be a revolution that fundamentally changes 1:20:36.160 --> 1:20:41.080 the structures of everyday life in Chile. This has when 1:20:41.160 --> 1:20:43.720 they could happen here. Join us tomorrow for part two 1:20:43.760 --> 1:20:46.880 of this interview, where we walk through the Chilean Revolution, 1:20:46.960 --> 1:20:50.640 the Cordons, and their lasting impact in society. If you 1:20:50.680 --> 1:20:52.400 want to find more of Nicholas's work, he has an 1:20:52.479 --> 1:20:54.120 article coming out in the next week or so and 1:20:54.160 --> 1:20:56.839 then made by History section of the Washington Post connecting 1:20:56.840 --> 1:20:59.960 the revolutionary period and the broader struggle for a dignity 1:21:00.040 --> 1:21:02.840 find Life to the modern inclusion of social rights in 1:21:02.880 --> 1:21:06.519 the proposed new post uprising Leighan Constitution. You can find 1:21:06.520 --> 1:21:08.840 more of us that happened here, pond on Twitter, Instagram, 1:21:08.960 --> 1:21:11.920 And we have two new podcasts coming out. The first 1:21:12.000 --> 1:21:15.000 is Ghost Church, hosted by the inimitable Jamie Loftus. It's 1:21:15.040 --> 1:21:17.799 a it's a deep look at the historical contemporary practice 1:21:17.800 --> 1:21:22.120 of spiritualism and mediums who talked to ghosts. It is wonderful. 1:21:22.240 --> 1:21:24.080 Jamie is one of the best podcasters ever do it 1:21:24.120 --> 1:21:26.639 and the first episode is out right now. You can 1:21:26.680 --> 1:21:30.240 find Ghost Church wherever find podcasts are distributed. Second on 1:21:30.360 --> 1:21:32.759 May Day, which is which is this Sunday, May one, 1:21:32.800 --> 1:21:35.400 the first episode of the Great Margaret Killjoy's new podcast 1:21:35.479 --> 1:21:38.280 Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff is dropping. It's about 1:21:38.479 --> 1:21:41.760 well what the title says, that's the coolest revolutionaries, desperadoes 1:21:41.760 --> 1:21:43.840 and ordinary people in the right place and the right 1:21:43.920 --> 1:21:47.559 time doing extremely cool stuff. And it's happening every Monday 1:21:47.600 --> 1:21:49.920 and Wednesday from here on out. So go give it. 1:21:49.960 --> 1:21:51.439 Listen when the traps on May Day. It is going 1:21:51.479 --> 1:21:53.400 to be great, and yeah, it is, it is. It 1:21:53.479 --> 1:21:56.200 is a great time to be podcasting. There are there 1:21:56.200 --> 1:21:59.479 are many podcasts, so go listen to them now after 1:21:59.520 --> 1:22:17.519 you're done with this one. Welcome to it Happen here 1:22:18.080 --> 1:22:21.519 a show that is once again today about the Chilean Revolution. Um, 1:22:21.560 --> 1:22:26.519 here's part two of my interview with Nicholas Scott. Yeah, 1:22:26.520 --> 1:22:28.040 I guess, I guess the next thing you should look 1:22:28.040 --> 1:22:34.840 at is like how how Yeah, it's exactly you know. 1:22:35.520 --> 1:22:38.360 The Essentially, by the end of Allende's first year, things 1:22:38.479 --> 1:22:42.360 are looking very promising. So a few victories, more than 1:22:42.400 --> 1:22:44.599 a few victories, but a few key victories take place 1:22:44.640 --> 1:22:48.479 in his first year in office. In one he submits 1:22:48.479 --> 1:22:51.760 his plan for the nationalization of the nation's mineral wealth, 1:22:52.040 --> 1:22:58.040 which is voted unanimously in Congress, which speaks to the 1:22:58.200 --> 1:23:03.160 level of broad support for Chile having its own national 1:23:03.200 --> 1:23:06.519 sovereignty over its own resources. Right. And this also then 1:23:06.560 --> 1:23:09.000 connects with sort of the theme that we've been developing 1:23:09.000 --> 1:23:11.280 this whole time, which is the sort of trends in 1:23:11.360 --> 1:23:16.120 regional and global similarities between Chile and elsewhere. Right. A 1:23:16.200 --> 1:23:18.799 lot of the Third World movement, a lot of countries 1:23:18.840 --> 1:23:21.160 in the so called Third World at that time are 1:23:21.240 --> 1:23:26.479 looking to nationalization as the way to extricate themselves from 1:23:26.479 --> 1:23:29.520 what they viewed as being in a relationship of dependency 1:23:30.000 --> 1:23:33.120 to circuits of global capitalism. Right. You have this whole 1:23:33.160 --> 1:23:37.160 idea of dependency theory that comes out of Latin America 1:23:37.600 --> 1:23:42.680 in specific UM. And the solution then is seen to 1:23:43.280 --> 1:23:46.960 be able to control one's own natural resources uh and 1:23:46.960 --> 1:23:50.840 and use that wealth to develop its own national industry. Right. 1:23:50.880 --> 1:23:53.799 This would overcome the sort of bottlenext in the imports 1:23:53.840 --> 1:23:58.160 institution model UM as well as allowing for more redistributive 1:23:58.640 --> 1:24:03.479 UMM structure of wealth and or land within the individual 1:24:03.479 --> 1:24:08.000 countries themselves. So he gets his mineral wealth UM nationalization past. 1:24:08.640 --> 1:24:11.840 The Popular Unity Coalition also wins a series of off 1:24:11.840 --> 1:24:15.360 fear or by elections at the local level, Um and 1:24:15.400 --> 1:24:21.800 wins them so successfully that they will eschew a alliance 1:24:21.920 --> 1:24:26.200 with the Christian Democrats, who are not part of the coalition, 1:24:26.240 --> 1:24:28.479 the popular unew coalition, but they are also at this 1:24:28.560 --> 1:24:31.920 time not part of the opposition, which is largely controlled 1:24:31.960 --> 1:24:35.360 by the Nationalist Party. They're sort of somewhere in the middle, 1:24:35.720 --> 1:24:37.479 but they're also in the point in the middle in 1:24:37.479 --> 1:24:40.920 which they control a large share of the Congress as 1:24:40.920 --> 1:24:44.880 well as the courts themselves, so they will not So 1:24:44.920 --> 1:24:47.040 the Popularly Unique Coalition is sort of buoyed by that. 1:24:47.120 --> 1:24:49.799 What it sees is the success at the ballot box, 1:24:50.160 --> 1:24:52.879 and it sees its success is getting its plans passed, 1:24:53.560 --> 1:24:56.120 and so they will issue an alliance with the Christian Democrats. 1:24:56.240 --> 1:24:58.559 And then the sort of other main thing that takes 1:24:58.600 --> 1:25:01.040 place in the ninety one is the ad is able 1:25:01.120 --> 1:25:06.599 to affect using macroeconomic policies that were functionally Canesianism right, 1:25:07.000 --> 1:25:13.120 Um in his economic Minister Pedro Guskovic Um will essentially 1:25:13.160 --> 1:25:17.719 allow for a redistribution of wealth in which workers received 1:25:17.800 --> 1:25:22.200 sort of um what they could what we can consider bonuses, right, 1:25:22.240 --> 1:25:25.800 but sort of automatic increases um that we're affected from 1:25:25.800 --> 1:25:29.360 the top down in wages across UH. And the historian 1:25:29.360 --> 1:25:33.479 Peter Wynn who published the sort of landmark study UM 1:25:33.680 --> 1:25:37.000 that really dominated the field of the history and the 1:25:37.080 --> 1:25:39.720 historiography of the Popular Unity years. He published a book 1:25:39.720 --> 1:25:43.400 called The Leaverse of Revolution that looks at the Yor 1:25:43.479 --> 1:25:45.720 Textile Mill, which was the first mill that I in 1:25:45.840 --> 1:25:51.920 a nationalizes UM in N And what when found during 1:25:52.000 --> 1:25:54.479 his research is that, you know, IDAs policies in n 1:25:55.760 --> 1:25:59.280 allowed a majority of Chileans to purchase bedsheets for the 1:25:59.320 --> 1:26:02.400 first time in many of their lives. That sheets were 1:26:02.439 --> 1:26:05.680 not something that the majority of Chileans used, despite the 1:26:05.720 --> 1:26:08.560 fact that a majority of Chileans worked in the textile 1:26:08.680 --> 1:26:11.519 industry right the textile industry was one of the most 1:26:11.520 --> 1:26:15.760 developed industries in Chile at this moment. And so all 1:26:15.760 --> 1:26:18.360 of these things sort of come together and by the 1:26:18.439 --> 1:26:22.639 end of the nineteen seventy one signs are looking good. However, 1:26:23.000 --> 1:26:26.200 by the time sort of nineteen seventy two dawns and 1:26:26.200 --> 1:26:29.040 as we're getting into the nineteen seventy two cracks are 1:26:29.040 --> 1:26:33.040 beginning to appear. There's another series of by elections in 1:26:33.080 --> 1:26:36.080 which the Popular Unity Coalition does not win. The Christian 1:26:36.120 --> 1:26:39.479 Democrats win UH. The election for the Rector of the 1:26:39.560 --> 1:26:43.200 University of Chile is a shock defeat for the Popular 1:26:43.240 --> 1:26:47.000 Unity Coalition and the Christian Democrat wins that UM. As well. 1:26:47.080 --> 1:26:49.639 As in nineteen seventy two, there is for the first 1:26:49.680 --> 1:26:56.040 time in the nation's history, the Central Workers Federation of Labor, 1:26:56.080 --> 1:26:58.960 the COOT has for the first time its own UM 1:26:59.240 --> 1:27:01.519 open elections for its leadership. It was the first time 1:27:01.520 --> 1:27:05.200 the rank and file could elect the leadership of the 1:27:05.280 --> 1:27:09.800 National Labor Confederation, and the Communist win the largest majority 1:27:09.880 --> 1:27:13.640 and the Socialists come in second, but just below the Socialists, 1:27:13.680 --> 1:27:16.000 and at the percentage level it was functionally the same 1:27:16.120 --> 1:27:20.000 where the Christian Democrats, so much so that basically a 1:27:20.160 --> 1:27:23.080 court that the Popular Unique Coalition sees that a quarter 1:27:23.360 --> 1:27:30.120 of the working class of Chile identifies as a Christian Democrat. Meanwhile, economically, 1:27:30.360 --> 1:27:34.559 things are beginning to stall out. Inflation is beginning to 1:27:34.600 --> 1:27:39.040 creep back up. UM production is not necessarily at the 1:27:39.120 --> 1:27:44.040 levels that UM the government would want it to be at. Right, 1:27:44.080 --> 1:27:46.879 so the idea of winning the battle of production begins 1:27:47.360 --> 1:27:50.559 becomes the sort of watchword or rallying cry in nineteen 1:27:50.600 --> 1:27:55.120 seventy two. Uh, And if the successes of nineteen one 1:27:55.200 --> 1:27:58.479 had somewhat papered over the sectarian differences that we were 1:27:58.479 --> 1:28:02.200 discussing earlier between say, the minists and socialists, by nineteen 1:28:02.200 --> 1:28:06.439 seventy two, those secretary differences are really spilling out into 1:28:06.479 --> 1:28:13.559 public view. So in mid nineteen you have the Communist Party, 1:28:13.920 --> 1:28:16.599 um member of the Communist Party is also a member 1:28:16.640 --> 1:28:19.840 of the allen A government, or Orlando MEAs Pens and 1:28:20.040 --> 1:28:24.960 editorial in which he essentially calls for the party, for 1:28:25.040 --> 1:28:30.120 the coalition to sort of close ranks, to consolidate its games, 1:28:30.280 --> 1:28:32.640 to reach out to the Christian Democrats, to make an 1:28:32.640 --> 1:28:36.360 alliance and use that sort of consolidated alliance as the 1:28:36.400 --> 1:28:41.479 way to move forward on in the revolutionary path. The Socialists, however, 1:28:41.600 --> 1:28:44.680 specifically the left wing of the Socialist Party, which was 1:28:44.760 --> 1:28:48.080 sort of identified with Carlo Carlos Ultimarano at the time, 1:28:49.200 --> 1:28:52.680 takes the opposite approach and says that, no, the solution 1:28:52.760 --> 1:28:57.280 isn't to consolidate to advance. Uh. The solution is to 1:28:57.320 --> 1:29:01.120 advance and consolidate by advancing. In other words, we shouldn't 1:29:01.120 --> 1:29:03.599 try to make an alliance with the Christian Democrats, because 1:29:03.640 --> 1:29:06.800 in their view, the Christian Democrats were just bourgeois right, 1:29:07.320 --> 1:29:10.879 that we should essentially align ourselves with the popular classes, 1:29:10.960 --> 1:29:14.600 with the world laborers that are meeting charge of the 1:29:14.600 --> 1:29:17.880 agrarian reform that's picking up speed rapidly in the countryside 1:29:17.880 --> 1:29:21.040 at this time right see, land seizures are taking place 1:29:21.240 --> 1:29:25.080 much more rapidly. Now, we should also place our alliances 1:29:25.160 --> 1:29:29.120 with the popular working classes, which at that moment, at 1:29:29.120 --> 1:29:31.880 the moment that this polemic is playing out in the 1:29:31.920 --> 1:29:34.880 press of Chile, is the very same moment do you 1:29:34.880 --> 1:29:40.760 have the first cordoon industrial emerged in citys Maipo uh. 1:29:40.800 --> 1:29:43.600 And it's into that sort of fractured moment that you 1:29:43.640 --> 1:29:47.280 have workers from a couple of plants that just happened 1:29:47.360 --> 1:29:50.679 to meet serendipitous lee on the steps of the Labor 1:29:50.720 --> 1:29:55.080 Ministry one day in Um about May of nineteen seventy two. 1:29:55.880 --> 1:29:58.880 They had both been on strike and had both been 1:29:58.960 --> 1:30:02.400 demanding their incorporation into what was referred to as the 1:30:02.439 --> 1:30:06.280 Social Property Area, which this was a Day's vision for 1:30:06.439 --> 1:30:09.080 creating a socialist economy, and this was a plan that 1:30:09.120 --> 1:30:11.880 he had submitted to the Congress to restructure the Chilean 1:30:11.920 --> 1:30:15.320 economy into three parts. There would have a social property 1:30:15.320 --> 1:30:17.439 area that would be owned and operated by the state, 1:30:18.040 --> 1:30:20.360 You'd have a mixed property area that would be a 1:30:20.400 --> 1:30:24.519 sort of mixture between the state and private indistry. And 1:30:24.520 --> 1:30:26.600 you'd have a private property area which would just be 1:30:26.720 --> 1:30:32.400 business as usual private enterprise. Um. Ultimately, that plan had 1:30:32.439 --> 1:30:36.080 been stalled out because of opposition from the Christian Democrats 1:30:36.800 --> 1:30:40.880 that vetoed it and submitted their own alternative strategy, which 1:30:40.920 --> 1:30:44.840 then I end a vetoed became a constitutional crisis that 1:30:44.880 --> 1:30:48.320 got remanded to the Constitutional Tribunal in Chile, which ultimately 1:30:48.560 --> 1:30:52.240 languished there through the end of the Enda government through 1:30:52.360 --> 1:30:57.160 nineteen seventy three during the coup, has never really resolved. Nevertheless, 1:30:57.760 --> 1:31:01.680 workers saw the ability to be in put into the 1:31:01.720 --> 1:31:05.439 social property area as the solution to what they perceived 1:31:05.520 --> 1:31:10.559 as a revolutionary socialism, right to be in a socialized economy. 1:31:10.640 --> 1:31:13.200 And I mentioned earlier Peter Win's work on the Order 1:31:13.360 --> 1:31:16.080 Textile mill. That's exactly what the workers at Yard or 1:31:16.320 --> 1:31:19.560 did they decided to do. Now that is in opposition 1:31:19.640 --> 1:31:22.240 to all End and the Popular Unity's plan, which was 1:31:22.600 --> 1:31:26.439 to put these sort of grand monopolies in the social 1:31:26.439 --> 1:31:31.559 property area, not necessarily smaller industries such as such as 1:31:31.600 --> 1:31:35.040 the yard or textile mill in particular UM. There were 1:31:35.080 --> 1:31:38.960 other perhaps textile companies that have inslated for incorporation. But 1:31:39.040 --> 1:31:42.479 the problem is that the workers successfully petitioned UM and 1:31:42.640 --> 1:31:47.320 pressured Allende and one there incorporation, and that unleashed what 1:31:47.400 --> 1:31:50.400 Win would refer to as a revolution from below. And 1:31:50.479 --> 1:31:53.400 that's what allowed the workers who sees the Labor Ministry 1:31:53.439 --> 1:31:58.320 that day in nineteen to demand their incorporation into the 1:31:58.320 --> 1:32:00.960 social property area, because there was a a law on 1:32:01.040 --> 1:32:04.000 the books in Chile that stated that if there was 1:32:04.000 --> 1:32:07.120 an unresolved labor conflict of the factory, that the state 1:32:07.160 --> 1:32:11.799 could intervene and essentially make state control of that factory, 1:32:11.800 --> 1:32:14.400 which would be the first step to them being incorporated 1:32:14.680 --> 1:32:18.479 into the social property area. And so it's out of 1:32:18.479 --> 1:32:21.920 that happenstance meeting on the doors to the Labor Ministry 1:32:21.920 --> 1:32:24.920 when they seize it and take it over, shut it down. UM. 1:32:24.960 --> 1:32:28.160 That then the workers of this industrial sector on the 1:32:28.160 --> 1:32:32.280 west of Santiago begin meeting, and they begin collaborating, and 1:32:32.320 --> 1:32:35.920 they begin organizing themselves territorially. And I guess this is 1:32:35.960 --> 1:32:38.559 a good moment to apologize to our listeners that never 1:32:38.600 --> 1:32:40.800 really gave a good definition as to what a court 1:32:40.840 --> 1:32:45.360 owned industryal was in practice. Essentially, the sort of wager 1:32:45.520 --> 1:32:49.800 of this organization was that you could organize yourself territorially 1:32:50.200 --> 1:32:53.200 rather than by trade or industry right, which would be 1:32:53.200 --> 1:32:57.160 the traditional way that a union would be structured. Um, 1:32:57.280 --> 1:33:01.320 metal workers organized with metal workers, class workers organized with 1:33:01.360 --> 1:33:04.479 the class workers, textile etcetera, etcetera. Um, and never the 1:33:04.560 --> 1:33:09.200 twain shall meet in practice right, It's all through bureaucratic structures, 1:33:09.680 --> 1:33:12.599 labor leaders, etcetera. As I mentioned, it wasn't until nineteen 1:33:12.640 --> 1:33:15.960 seventy two that the rank and file is ever able 1:33:16.000 --> 1:33:20.679 to vote themselves for their own national leadership. And so 1:33:20.960 --> 1:33:23.080 the idea of these workers is that they're going to 1:33:23.200 --> 1:33:26.960 create their sort of new form of organization, and after 1:33:27.800 --> 1:33:30.360 you know, deciding to do it, they seize the territory 1:33:30.520 --> 1:33:34.679 of so Smaipoo. They shut down traffic, and this road 1:33:34.880 --> 1:33:37.120 that they seize is one of the main roads into 1:33:37.160 --> 1:33:40.160 the city of Santiago from the west, which means that 1:33:40.200 --> 1:33:44.160 the government had to respond immediately. As one worker, uh 1:33:44.400 --> 1:33:46.880 not worker one government official put it at the time, 1:33:47.080 --> 1:33:50.960 the workers were in the streets. We had to respond, right, 1:33:51.040 --> 1:33:53.840 you're you're a government that it claims to represent the 1:33:53.840 --> 1:33:56.400 working class. You're a government that it claims to be 1:33:56.439 --> 1:33:58.920 putting yourself on the road to socialism. And the workers 1:33:58.920 --> 1:34:01.760 have now cut off trans rotation into the city UM 1:34:01.800 --> 1:34:05.479 and demanding sort of you to fulfill your promise, and 1:34:05.560 --> 1:34:09.519 so they had to respond UM. Ultimately, some of the 1:34:09.520 --> 1:34:11.840 workers that were striking at the time, specifically from the 1:34:11.880 --> 1:34:15.479 Perlack company, which was canning company UH, they did win 1:34:15.960 --> 1:34:20.439 the incorporation into the Social Property Area UM. And however, 1:34:20.720 --> 1:34:24.240 other workers UM from other factories in the area did 1:34:24.280 --> 1:34:28.840 not win their incorporation, which then produced a march into 1:34:28.880 --> 1:34:31.519 the city of Santiago in late June, and it also 1:34:31.640 --> 1:34:34.479 produced a platform of struggle by what was referred to 1:34:34.479 --> 1:34:38.040 as the Workers Command of criosm PROU And that's really 1:34:38.080 --> 1:34:41.559 the first document we have UM that shows that there 1:34:41.640 --> 1:34:45.599 is this new structure that is demanding that the government 1:34:45.640 --> 1:34:49.640 fulfill its promise, live up to its basic program UM. 1:34:49.680 --> 1:34:52.240 Now following that moment, however, there's sort of a period 1:34:52.240 --> 1:34:55.679 of demobilization that takes place in sort of mid ninet 1:34:56.960 --> 1:35:00.160 and it's really not until October nineteen seventy two, that 1:35:00.240 --> 1:35:03.280 you have the flourishing of this new form of organization 1:35:03.320 --> 1:35:07.840 of the Cortona industrial across the city of Santiago. And 1:35:07.880 --> 1:35:10.880 the reason that it takes place in October two is 1:35:10.880 --> 1:35:14.679 because that's the moment that the opposition launches its first 1:35:15.200 --> 1:35:19.200 concerted effort to try and topple the Illenda government. That's 1:35:19.240 --> 1:35:21.879 what's referred to as the Boss of Strike. And essentially 1:35:21.920 --> 1:35:25.120 what happens is there's a localized strike of truckers in 1:35:25.160 --> 1:35:29.040 the far South of Chile and the sort of business 1:35:29.120 --> 1:35:33.720 elites of the country are successful in transforming what is 1:35:33.720 --> 1:35:37.080 a very localized strike in the far South into a 1:35:37.160 --> 1:35:40.479 global lockout on the part of business owners. Right, so 1:35:40.520 --> 1:35:44.960 they'll shutter factories, they'll shutter distribution centers of food stuffs, 1:35:45.080 --> 1:35:48.280 they'll completely shut down transportation networks in the city of 1:35:48.320 --> 1:35:51.200 Santiago and other cities across the country. UM. So you 1:35:51.200 --> 1:35:54.480 can understand why they would call it the Boss of strike. Um. 1:35:54.520 --> 1:35:56.879 And this is the moment then that you have workers 1:35:56.920 --> 1:35:59.840 in these industrial zones that we start began our conversation 1:35:59.880 --> 1:36:03.240 with using this model that emerged in the southwest of 1:36:03.560 --> 1:36:08.160 Santiago as this new model to seize their factories that 1:36:08.200 --> 1:36:11.720 they've been locked out of, to reorganize the production of 1:36:11.800 --> 1:36:17.000 their factories and to ensure distribution, uh you know, takes 1:36:17.000 --> 1:36:20.680 place of basic goods and services for local residents in 1:36:20.720 --> 1:36:24.240 their community. It's really what allows the end a government 1:36:24.240 --> 1:36:28.000 to whether the storm of the October strike and the 1:36:28.040 --> 1:36:31.880 October crisis as it will also be known um ultimately 1:36:32.120 --> 1:36:34.720 you know, that will reach a truce in November that 1:36:34.760 --> 1:36:38.920 includes a cabinet shake up, also includes integrating the military 1:36:39.040 --> 1:36:42.360 into the cabinet um as well as Ada was able 1:36:42.400 --> 1:36:44.599 to deploy the military to sort of keep the peace 1:36:45.000 --> 1:36:47.720 in some senses. So there is a historiographical debate to 1:36:47.720 --> 1:36:50.040 be had between you know, how much of it was 1:36:50.160 --> 1:36:53.479 the workers and the cordonis saving the country and saving 1:36:53.600 --> 1:36:55.720 the government, and how much of it was the military 1:36:56.160 --> 1:36:58.320 remaining loyal to the government that allows them to sort 1:36:58.320 --> 1:37:00.799 of reach was referred to as the truth of November. 1:37:01.920 --> 1:37:04.519 So I guess I want to back up for a 1:37:04.600 --> 1:37:08.680 second and talk about what is the intern organization of 1:37:08.720 --> 1:37:11.480 the criticize actually look like, Like are we talking about counsels? 1:37:11.600 --> 1:37:14.280 Is this mass assemblies? Um? How how how does this 1:37:14.320 --> 1:37:15.960 actually work on a sort of like day to day 1:37:16.000 --> 1:37:19.000 basis the great question, and this is actually the question 1:37:19.080 --> 1:37:22.480 that has sort of dominated a lot of the scholarship 1:37:22.520 --> 1:37:25.800 on the Cordonists. Um Frank going to shoot, who is 1:37:25.840 --> 1:37:30.759 sort of the leading scholar of the Cordonists essentially used 1:37:31.080 --> 1:37:34.120 Marx's distinction of a class in itself and a class 1:37:34.120 --> 1:37:37.240 for itself to sort of unraveled this question. So, for 1:37:37.840 --> 1:37:40.920 we're going to shoot. The Cordona in itself is the 1:37:40.960 --> 1:37:44.040 sort of territory, right that we began our conversation with. 1:37:44.280 --> 1:37:47.360 And then the Cordona for itself is essentially the workers Council, 1:37:48.000 --> 1:37:51.080 that is the governing body of the Cordona itself, which 1:37:51.120 --> 1:37:56.080 was composed of already unionized workers, right, so it already 1:37:56.160 --> 1:37:59.639 is a tier of working class above say just your 1:37:59.680 --> 1:38:02.120 general a worker that worked on the factory floor. So 1:38:02.160 --> 1:38:05.600 it's already a unionized worker. And some of that occupies 1:38:05.640 --> 1:38:09.000 a power or a position of authority within the union, 1:38:09.040 --> 1:38:12.679 i e. Already a or on the directorate or president, 1:38:12.760 --> 1:38:17.040 vice president, treasurer, or secretary, so that main councils are 1:38:17.080 --> 1:38:19.800 elected within the sort of general assembly of the court 1:38:19.880 --> 1:38:23.840 on itself. Below you have then different commissions, right, you 1:38:23.880 --> 1:38:26.320 have a sort of propaganda press commission. You have a 1:38:26.360 --> 1:38:30.799 Cultural commission, you have a sports commission, you have a 1:38:30.840 --> 1:38:33.400 security commission, right because at this time you had far 1:38:33.520 --> 1:38:37.479 right shock troops that would spark street battles and that 1:38:37.520 --> 1:38:40.800 would harass workers, that would also attack factories that had 1:38:40.800 --> 1:38:44.759 been seized, so that they had um Security Commission, frontline 1:38:44.760 --> 1:38:48.720 Defense Commission. You also had distribution commissions, uh, and then 1:38:48.760 --> 1:38:52.720 you had other commissions that would essentially seek to coordinate 1:38:52.800 --> 1:38:55.160 all of this um that exists. So you had a 1:38:55.200 --> 1:38:58.400 sort of coordinating board just below the sort of general council. 1:38:58.760 --> 1:39:01.479 And then that's what was the mediation point between that 1:39:01.520 --> 1:39:04.599 sort of governing council and your different commissions. How how 1:39:04.600 --> 1:39:06.200 are the people who are like who are on these 1:39:06.200 --> 1:39:09.240 commissions selected? Are they like, are they elected or is 1:39:09.280 --> 1:39:12.000 they just like whoever wants to be on this thing? 1:39:13.360 --> 1:39:15.400 So it's a mix of both, right, So you you're 1:39:15.479 --> 1:39:19.599 sort of main council itself is elected via general assembly. Um. 1:39:19.640 --> 1:39:22.960 In terms of the commissions, the smaller commissions, we sadly 1:39:23.000 --> 1:39:26.800 don't have great documentary evidence that you know, lays out 1:39:26.840 --> 1:39:29.559 the process for that. So our best guests are our 1:39:29.600 --> 1:39:33.120 best understanding would be a mix of sort of volunteerism, 1:39:33.160 --> 1:39:36.679 as well as some sort of UM within the commission itself, 1:39:36.880 --> 1:39:40.679 some form of election excuse me, that would take place 1:39:40.760 --> 1:39:43.560 to sort of a point ahead of that commission that 1:39:43.600 --> 1:39:48.559 would then coordinate with the General Council itself. UM. You know, 1:39:48.640 --> 1:39:50.880 really what this you know what this sort of cuts 1:39:51.000 --> 1:39:52.960 the heart of UM is that the history of the 1:39:52.960 --> 1:39:56.960 Cordinates is a very evervescent history. UM. It's really easy 1:39:57.000 --> 1:39:59.840 to see the Cordinates in action, right when they're doing 1:40:00.000 --> 1:40:03.800 things like seizing control of their territory and erecting barricades. 1:40:04.320 --> 1:40:07.240 But on that day to day level, it's a relatively 1:40:07.280 --> 1:40:11.120 opaque sort of structure. It's really hard for us as 1:40:11.200 --> 1:40:14.200 historians to get a view into that. You know. One 1:40:14.240 --> 1:40:19.000 reason the Good Shoot is able to you know, unpack 1:40:19.040 --> 1:40:20.960 as much as he has and uncover as much as 1:40:20.960 --> 1:40:23.639 he has is because he conducted a series of oral 1:40:23.720 --> 1:40:28.960 history interviews, UM with many of the surviving workers. UM. 1:40:28.960 --> 1:40:32.000 And that's really one of the foundational source spaces we have. 1:40:32.520 --> 1:40:34.840 He published this in a book in which he published 1:40:34.880 --> 1:40:37.439 the full transcript of his interviews, so we don't it's 1:40:37.439 --> 1:40:41.240 not just like an interpretive essay, it's the full transcript UM. 1:40:41.280 --> 1:40:44.160 And so that's that, in combination with some of these 1:40:44.520 --> 1:40:50.160 coordinates had local presses that we have existing UM documentary 1:40:50.200 --> 1:40:53.160 evidence from that sort of would give you know, your 1:40:53.200 --> 1:40:58.600 standard diagram of council commission, commission, commission lines connecting them 1:40:58.640 --> 1:41:01.439 and things like that. UM. But one of the other 1:41:01.680 --> 1:41:04.439 few documents that we have surviving documents we have is 1:41:04.479 --> 1:41:07.679 what's referred to as the Manifesto of Cordona Folcuna Macana. 1:41:08.200 --> 1:41:11.160 And this is the document that my research really is 1:41:11.160 --> 1:41:14.760 at the heart of my research UM because while the 1:41:14.920 --> 1:41:17.160 Unamacana is recognized as sort of one of the most 1:41:17.200 --> 1:41:21.920 dynamic and strongest of the cordonas behind the original and studios, 1:41:21.960 --> 1:41:25.280 my poo, we really don't have a lot. We don't 1:41:25.280 --> 1:41:27.400 know a lot about what was going on in there. 1:41:27.439 --> 1:41:30.200 In fact, my research was born out of a conversation 1:41:30.600 --> 1:41:33.280 the first time I was in Chile conducting research for 1:41:33.400 --> 1:41:37.280 my master's at toughs UM with good to Shoot himself 1:41:37.280 --> 1:41:39.240 who told me that, like, we really don't know a 1:41:39.280 --> 1:41:41.479 lot about what was going on day to day in 1:41:41.479 --> 1:41:44.400 Folcuna Macana, would be really great if we could somehow 1:41:44.520 --> 1:41:46.800 find a way to do that. Uh, And you know 1:41:46.800 --> 1:41:48.320 that kind of stuck with me, that really wasn't my 1:41:48.360 --> 1:41:50.600 concern at the time. I concerned at the time was 1:41:50.960 --> 1:41:54.639 trying to understand how the cordonas had shifted from their 1:41:54.640 --> 1:41:58.360 emergence to the coup itself, because what I was seeing 1:41:58.439 --> 1:42:01.080 a lot of the literature was that people were using 1:42:01.800 --> 1:42:04.720 sources from late nineteen seventy three, once the Coralines are 1:42:04.840 --> 1:42:07.720 established and really showing up and press right, they're showing 1:42:07.760 --> 1:42:09.840 up in the archive a lot more by nineteen seventy three, 1:42:10.479 --> 1:42:13.200 and they're using documents from nineteen seventy three to describe 1:42:13.640 --> 1:42:16.120 they're sort of founding in nineteen seventy two, and the 1:42:16.160 --> 1:42:19.160 historian and me was kind of like, m hm, you know, yeah, 1:42:19.320 --> 1:42:24.040 that's things change, right, and things change both over time 1:42:24.120 --> 1:42:26.800 and space. And so my original concern was, you know, 1:42:26.880 --> 1:42:30.160 what made the sort of changes from the western side 1:42:30.160 --> 1:42:32.000 of the Sydney to the eastern side of the city. 1:42:33.080 --> 1:42:34.680 But then when I got to u v A and 1:42:34.720 --> 1:42:38.240 began my doctoral work, I really wanted to zero in 1:42:38.400 --> 1:42:41.519 on Facundamkina, And really I was, you know that that 1:42:41.600 --> 1:42:45.280 conversation with Frank was really ringing in my head, and 1:42:45.320 --> 1:42:47.960 so you know, I kinda at u v A had 1:42:47.960 --> 1:42:50.320 to do another master's essay as part of the program. 1:42:50.320 --> 1:42:53.639 They there, despite having already done a master's thesis when 1:42:53.640 --> 1:43:00.960 I was a tough exactly exactly the thesis. But you 1:43:01.000 --> 1:43:03.280 know what it did, what it allowed me to do, 1:43:03.479 --> 1:43:06.720 was to uh, you know, kind of play with the 1:43:06.760 --> 1:43:09.479 sources in ways that I may not have had the 1:43:09.520 --> 1:43:12.679 ability to do otherwise. Right, And so I really sat 1:43:12.760 --> 1:43:15.679 with this manifesto for a long period time and really 1:43:15.720 --> 1:43:19.400 did a close reading of this document, which you know, 1:43:19.439 --> 1:43:21.320 a lot of times this document has shown up in 1:43:21.320 --> 1:43:24.160 previous studies. It's shown up as a this is a 1:43:24.240 --> 1:43:27.559 document that emerges during the October Crisis. It's the document 1:43:27.640 --> 1:43:31.760 we know we have from this one corzone here, it is, right, 1:43:32.320 --> 1:43:34.880 But what I uncovered was that the document itself, the 1:43:34.920 --> 1:43:38.120 document that is headed as the Manifesto, is actually a 1:43:38.200 --> 1:43:42.040 reworked version of a document that had circulated previously during 1:43:42.040 --> 1:43:47.000 the October Crisis, that was produced by the Revolutionary Left movement, 1:43:47.080 --> 1:43:53.160 the Mirror, the Far Left Party and the aren't they rists? 1:43:53.880 --> 1:43:57.080 They are? They very much are. This is the very 1:43:57.120 --> 1:44:00.559 far left UM party that has calling for a more 1:44:00.600 --> 1:44:06.559 insurrectionary model UM. It's also calling for worker peasant alliance. Right, So, 1:44:06.600 --> 1:44:11.960 it is this very much more traditional um socialist revolutionary 1:44:12.360 --> 1:44:16.200 in that sense, compared to the sort of aendeist vision 1:44:16.400 --> 1:44:20.360 of socialism that is being handed down from above. Right. 1:44:20.400 --> 1:44:23.519 And so during the October crisis, there's this document that 1:44:23.600 --> 1:44:27.640 circulates by the opposition that's running the crisis that is 1:44:27.720 --> 1:44:33.200 essentially the petition the plago in Spanish should be the word, 1:44:33.240 --> 1:44:38.240 but essentially the petition of of Chile um and the 1:44:38.479 --> 1:44:41.960 mirror takes issue with the fact that the bosses issued 1:44:42.040 --> 1:44:46.240 a petition in the name of Chile, and so they 1:44:46.240 --> 1:44:51.320 issue a counter document that is the people's petition, the 1:44:51.320 --> 1:44:54.960 Pliego del Pueblo. And it's a very long document, it's 1:44:55.000 --> 1:44:59.240 a very um It reads as a essentially a manifesto 1:44:59.400 --> 1:45:02.519 for a new revolution to take place, right, like how 1:45:02.560 --> 1:45:07.360 to transform the present crisis into a revolutionary and breakthrough 1:45:07.840 --> 1:45:11.920 And as you're saying, a core various model. In the 1:45:11.960 --> 1:45:17.000 tail end of the October crisis, as Cordonacamacana is consolidating 1:45:17.000 --> 1:45:21.240 itself right, itself forms after a factory seizure at elec 1:45:21.320 --> 1:45:25.200 metal Um, which then unites these sort of two nodes 1:45:25.240 --> 1:45:27.240 that existed in the territory at the north end and 1:45:27.280 --> 1:45:30.640 the south end into one sort of communication and solidarity 1:45:30.680 --> 1:45:34.680 network that will then become known as the Cordon that 1:45:34.920 --> 1:45:37.960 has its first general assembly in which it takes this 1:45:38.040 --> 1:45:41.840 document from the Mirror and begins to rework it. And 1:45:42.040 --> 1:45:46.720 that's then what becomes the Manifesto of Cordoncuonamacana. And so 1:45:46.800 --> 1:45:50.080 in my research and in my master's essay at the 1:45:50.160 --> 1:45:52.519 University of Virginia, what I did was, you know, I 1:45:52.560 --> 1:45:56.080 really compared these two documents and looked for where the differences. 1:45:56.520 --> 1:46:00.160 You know, what's showing up here that's not showing up 1:46:00.160 --> 1:46:04.040 in the mirors document. In other words, what glimpses can 1:46:04.040 --> 1:46:08.680 we get of the local culture of Acunamacina itself. Um. 1:46:08.720 --> 1:46:12.240 And one of the key differences that I find is 1:46:12.280 --> 1:46:16.880 there's an entire section that begins the manifesto that was 1:46:16.920 --> 1:46:19.400 the crime of the bosses, the crimes of the bosses, 1:46:19.800 --> 1:46:22.720 and that exists in the Meryor's document as well. But 1:46:22.840 --> 1:46:28.080 the crimes that are articulated are far slight differences. But 1:46:28.240 --> 1:46:32.520 the in the manifesto itself, the final crime that's articulated 1:46:33.080 --> 1:46:36.080 is that the manifesto reads that it's a crime that 1:46:36.280 --> 1:46:40.720 the basic few elite in Chile continue to use the 1:46:40.760 --> 1:46:45.840 country's wealth to support their privileges without giving a dignified 1:46:45.920 --> 1:46:49.400 life to a majority of joyance. And this doesn't appear 1:46:49.400 --> 1:46:53.559 anywhere in the Mirrors document. And it was something about 1:46:53.600 --> 1:46:56.200 this phrase of a dignified life that really just like 1:46:56.439 --> 1:47:00.599 cued my analytical census that sort of raised the flags 1:47:00.640 --> 1:47:03.360 for me. And this is what then led me down 1:47:03.439 --> 1:47:06.320 the road that I'm on now, which is the road 1:47:06.400 --> 1:47:08.720 of looking at things like the church and the Pope 1:47:08.760 --> 1:47:12.360 La Door movement, because the idea of dignity and the 1:47:12.400 --> 1:47:16.200 idea of a dignified life is a key discoorse that's 1:47:16.240 --> 1:47:20.280 circulating in the church's pastoralism right coming out As we 1:47:20.280 --> 1:47:23.120 were speaking about earlier, the discourse of dignity is really 1:47:24.200 --> 1:47:28.240 present in the church's outreach efforts, but it's also present 1:47:28.560 --> 1:47:31.599 in this Pope La Door movement for housing. The idea 1:47:31.640 --> 1:47:34.320 of a dignified house as the end goal of their 1:47:34.360 --> 1:47:38.559 struggle is something that is, you know, rings out in 1:47:38.640 --> 1:47:40.960 the documents that we have access to and in the 1:47:41.080 --> 1:47:44.200 oral histories that we have, and so that really, you know, 1:47:44.320 --> 1:47:47.200 made me think, like, what is it then about the 1:47:47.400 --> 1:47:52.640 kunamakaina that is allowing gifts to appear here? And you know, 1:47:52.680 --> 1:47:56.880 what can we then learn using this as our you know, 1:47:57.040 --> 1:48:00.080 starting point and going out where and so that's on. 1:48:00.320 --> 1:48:02.920 I decided to sort of take the story back all 1:48:02.920 --> 1:48:05.639 the way in nineteen fifty seven and look at things 1:48:05.680 --> 1:48:07.599 like the church, look at things like the Pope leot 1:48:07.600 --> 1:48:12.559 Door movement, but then also extend the story past the 1:48:12.640 --> 1:48:15.960 nineteen seventy three period, which is when the coup takes place, 1:48:16.000 --> 1:48:18.280 which is, you know, in the historiography seen as this 1:48:18.920 --> 1:48:22.400 hard line in this this break in in Cholyan history, 1:48:22.400 --> 1:48:26.120 that there's a before September eleventh, nineteen seventy three, and 1:48:26.160 --> 1:48:29.960 there's an after September eleventh, nineteen seventy three, and very 1:48:30.000 --> 1:48:33.280 few studies crossed that line, especially studies with regards to 1:48:33.320 --> 1:48:38.040 the labor movement, the specifically the dignity thing is is 1:48:38.520 --> 1:48:41.559 really really interesting to me too, because so I didn't 1:48:41.600 --> 1:48:47.760 interview like, oh God, like a month the go sort 1:48:47.760 --> 1:48:50.160 of have lost track of time, but I didn't interview 1:48:50.200 --> 1:48:53.600 with within with an Amazon organizer. And one of the 1:48:53.680 --> 1:48:54.760 things that that was one of the things that was 1:48:54.760 --> 1:48:56.040 like one of the things that he brought up is 1:48:56.080 --> 1:48:57.920 that one of the things that like we are fighting 1:48:57.920 --> 1:48:59.960 for his dignity, and yeah, that that does some things. 1:49:00.080 --> 1:49:03.240 Typically I've been thinking about more because like I think 1:49:03.360 --> 1:49:05.599 we talked about this a bit in the interview itself, 1:49:05.640 --> 1:49:09.720 but like, like dignity as a demand is a thing 1:49:09.800 --> 1:49:13.280 that you that you see all of the time in 1:49:14.640 --> 1:49:17.720 like in in in you know if if if if 1:49:17.720 --> 1:49:20.800 you are talking to a bunch of people, like on 1:49:20.920 --> 1:49:22.920 the streets in the middle of a movement, you will 1:49:22.920 --> 1:49:24.760 hear people talk about dignity. I mean, I think, if 1:49:24.800 --> 1:49:27.200 if I'm remembering this correctly, this is this is one 1:49:27.240 --> 1:49:28.559 of the this is one of the big things. This 1:49:28.640 --> 1:49:31.080 is one of the big demands. And like the modern 1:49:31.400 --> 1:49:33.920 Chilean protest movements, like that was one of their huge 1:49:33.920 --> 1:49:36.840 sort of focus. But it's but it's also something like 1:49:36.960 --> 1:49:39.479 I have never like at any I don't think I've 1:49:39.479 --> 1:49:43.400 ever seen like a communist party say the word dignity, 1:49:43.800 --> 1:49:48.080 like like I think it happens. I don't know if 1:49:48.120 --> 1:49:50.880 every once in a while, like maybe you see it 1:49:50.920 --> 1:49:53.200 if you get a document that's that's not produced by 1:49:53.240 --> 1:49:56.280 the sort of ideological engines, but it's produced by like 1:49:56.800 --> 1:50:00.439 just a bunch of workers in a factory. But yeah, yeah, 1:50:00.479 --> 1:50:02.680 that that's fascinating to me because like, yeah, because that 1:50:03.880 --> 1:50:07.679 I don't know, it's it's it seems like the structive 1:50:07.760 --> 1:50:11.800 for dignity both yeah, like has this thing as like 1:50:11.840 --> 1:50:15.719 a very specific discourse from the church, but it's also 1:50:15.800 --> 1:50:19.080 something that shows up in a lot of movements where 1:50:20.720 --> 1:50:24.520 you're not dealing with the kind of like ideological rigidity 1:50:24.560 --> 1:50:28.040 that you get from you know, like the mirror not 1:50:28.120 --> 1:50:30.080 the mirror is a like that that you know, like 1:50:30.120 --> 1:50:32.599 that that's that's a very like like this is a party, 1:50:32.640 --> 1:50:34.519 it has a line, it has a very sort of 1:50:34.560 --> 1:50:40.680 like yeah, yeah, And it's fascinating to me that that yeah, 1:50:40.720 --> 1:50:42.840 that that you you can see these differences where even 1:50:42.880 --> 1:50:49.599 when they have influenced the thing that gets acted as dignity, Yeah, 1:50:49.640 --> 1:50:51.559 I mean there is you know, I think that perhaps 1:50:51.640 --> 1:50:58.719 what has um pushed studies of leftism, socialism, and labor 1:50:58.760 --> 1:51:02.680 movement away from the idea of dignity as an analytic 1:51:02.880 --> 1:51:06.479 object is there is tension here. Right, Dignity is a 1:51:06.560 --> 1:51:13.599 highly individualized concept, but the solution for a dignified life 1:51:13.760 --> 1:51:18.960 for all Chileans, as per this document were collective structural changes, 1:51:19.240 --> 1:51:23.439 and so there's this tension between a collective solution and 1:51:23.640 --> 1:51:27.160 an individual gain right. And so I think that that 1:51:27.560 --> 1:51:31.200 both um explains why this hasn't necessarily been a focus 1:51:31.280 --> 1:51:34.439 of a lot of studies um before. But it also, 1:51:34.479 --> 1:51:38.000 you know, it gets to the historiography itself, which was 1:51:38.439 --> 1:51:41.000 you know, a large product of the history here, and 1:51:41.040 --> 1:51:43.640 so things like the Christian Democrats and things like the 1:51:43.720 --> 1:51:46.799 Church were seen as the enemy of the popular Unity 1:51:46.840 --> 1:51:50.160 coalition given the way that the you know, the coup 1:51:50.200 --> 1:51:54.000 takes place and things like that, and so anything that 1:51:54.120 --> 1:51:57.840 maybe had a whiff of Christian democracy or Christianity or 1:51:57.840 --> 1:52:02.080 things like that was seen as as antithetical or incompatible 1:52:02.160 --> 1:52:06.160 with the study of the left. It also gets to 1:52:06.280 --> 1:52:09.240 the tension that you were doing a really great job 1:52:09.280 --> 1:52:11.880 of sort of unpacking, which is this tension between the 1:52:11.960 --> 1:52:15.320 national leadership of these parties and the national union leadership 1:52:15.720 --> 1:52:19.600 and then everyday workers on the ground, right. And you know, 1:52:19.680 --> 1:52:21.840 that's I think really where the strength. And this was 1:52:21.880 --> 1:52:24.400 really the argument that I advanced in my master's thesis 1:52:24.520 --> 1:52:28.880 the UVA is that one of the central contradictions of 1:52:29.400 --> 1:52:33.640 the all end A period is they were competing ideas 1:52:33.680 --> 1:52:37.240 of socialism. So from the top down and from my 1:52:37.400 --> 1:52:42.040 end Day's view, socialism was the traditional Soviet union esque 1:52:42.240 --> 1:52:45.160 approach and so far as it was national economic planning, 1:52:46.000 --> 1:52:49.960 party hierarchies, things of that nature, right, discipline at the 1:52:50.000 --> 1:52:54.160 base and upward and upward planning from the top down. 1:52:54.800 --> 1:52:56.920 But what I think the manifesto and the history of 1:52:56.920 --> 1:53:01.160 the Quinmacina helps us understand is that for every day individuals, 1:53:01.160 --> 1:53:04.240 that their idea of socialism didn't have anything to do 1:53:04.320 --> 1:53:06.880 with state economic planning. It didn't have anything to do 1:53:06.920 --> 1:53:11.320 with expertise and technocrats and things of that nature. It 1:53:11.400 --> 1:53:14.280 had to do with the idea that like I need 1:53:15.000 --> 1:53:18.240 sheets from my bed, I need food for my child. 1:53:18.760 --> 1:53:22.639 I need the ability to you know, have enough sleep 1:53:22.720 --> 1:53:23.840 to be able to get up and go to the 1:53:23.880 --> 1:53:26.000 factory the next day. Right, I need to be able 1:53:26.040 --> 1:53:29.360 to live a dignified life, to be able to then 1:53:29.880 --> 1:53:32.680 you know, carry out my work, my obligation as a 1:53:32.760 --> 1:53:37.000 worker in the historical movement of socialism, and so I 1:53:37.040 --> 1:53:40.519 think that this is really what um This tension is 1:53:40.520 --> 1:53:45.360 then what allows for the sort of destabilization to take 1:53:45.360 --> 1:53:49.920 place um as the opposition consolidates and ultimately destabilizes the 1:53:49.920 --> 1:53:53.760 identic government in nine Yeah, I think this is a 1:53:53.840 --> 1:53:57.479 tension that like, I mean, I think there's there's different 1:53:57.600 --> 1:54:01.320 versions of it too that you see sort of across 1:54:01.320 --> 1:54:03.160 the story. Like one of the ways that it manifests 1:54:03.439 --> 1:54:07.439 is this battle between the people who think socialism is 1:54:07.479 --> 1:54:11.280 about like is national like state national incorporation, that people 1:54:11.320 --> 1:54:13.840 who think socialism is about like direct control at the 1:54:13.880 --> 1:54:15.800 point of production by the people who are doing the work. 1:54:16.960 --> 1:54:20.160 But but I think also, yeah, the question of dignity 1:54:20.280 --> 1:54:23.120 is it's like it's this, it's like, dignity is this 1:54:23.160 --> 1:54:28.360 expression that's like maximally bad for um, like if you're 1:54:28.520 --> 1:54:30.640 like you know, if you're like a you're you're you're 1:54:30.680 --> 1:54:33.680 a material you're like you know, you're a historical materialist theoretician. Right, 1:54:33.680 --> 1:54:36.760 It's it's it's the worst possible slogan because on the 1:54:36.760 --> 1:54:38.680 one hand, it's like it's not materialist, right, like what 1:54:38.760 --> 1:54:41.120 is dignity? There's no dignity has no class relation, like 1:54:41.160 --> 1:54:43.400 what is that? You know, And it's it's it's simultaneously 1:54:43.440 --> 1:54:46.760 like it's not with jerious enough. It's too reformist because like, oh, well, 1:54:46.800 --> 1:54:49.560 you can give people dignity by just buying them off 1:54:49.600 --> 1:54:52.000 for like increasing wages, or you could have a class compromise, 1:54:52.000 --> 1:54:54.400 and that can give you dignity, but then simultaneously it's 1:54:54.440 --> 1:54:56.520 the thing that's too radical because the problem with dignity 1:54:56.560 --> 1:54:58.720 also is it like, yeah, I don't know, like there's 1:54:58.760 --> 1:55:01.120 there's no guarantee that you're going to get dignity if 1:55:01.320 --> 1:55:04.640 like your factory is controlled by the state, like exactly, 1:55:04.680 --> 1:55:06.720 and yeah, and this is why, like you see almost 1:55:06.720 --> 1:55:10.960 identically the state, different name, yeah, and and yeah, it's 1:55:10.960 --> 1:55:14.280 like it's why you see like the uprisings that happen um, 1:55:14.320 --> 1:55:17.560 I mean really starting in Hungary. But yeah, this is why, 1:55:17.600 --> 1:55:20.160 like that they're uprising in Czechoslovakia looks almost identical to 1:55:20.280 --> 1:55:22.879 like the uprising that happens in France. It's because they're 1:55:22.960 --> 1:55:28.280 both like there there's you know, you're you're like you 1:55:28.440 --> 1:55:31.280 the factory worker in a factory in Czechoslovakia and you, 1:55:31.360 --> 1:55:33.880 the factory worker in the factory in France are dealing 1:55:33.920 --> 1:55:35.960 with essentially the same thing. And so it's it's this 1:55:36.080 --> 1:55:38.520 kind of like I don't know, it's it seems like 1:55:38.600 --> 1:55:42.400 it's it's it's this perfect sort of like cipher for 1:55:43.440 --> 1:55:46.720 all of these kind of political differences that that that 1:55:46.720 --> 1:55:51.640 that manifests this this this really old tension in what 1:55:51.680 --> 1:55:53.480 the worker's movement is going to be that's been being 1:55:53.520 --> 1:56:01.280 fought out since eighteen thirties and that. Yeah, but I 1:56:01.320 --> 1:56:03.720 think that like if we as scholars and if we 1:56:03.800 --> 1:56:06.720 use intellectuals, are really serious about when we say that 1:56:06.760 --> 1:56:09.760 we're going to study things from below, then I think 1:56:09.840 --> 1:56:14.240 that we have to take the workers at their word, right, 1:56:14.360 --> 1:56:16.760 And so like, for example, I presented a version of 1:56:16.760 --> 1:56:20.240 my of my master's thesis at a I studied was 1:56:20.280 --> 1:56:22.920 it a program in Bologna for a summer um And 1:56:22.920 --> 1:56:25.720 so I was presenting this and to the you know, 1:56:25.880 --> 1:56:29.400 and the Italian leftists in the room, um really came 1:56:29.760 --> 1:56:33.120 you know, came down on this question of it sounds 1:56:33.160 --> 1:56:36.400 like what they're describing isn't socialism because they're much more 1:56:36.440 --> 1:56:40.360 interested in distribution and not interested in the point of production, 1:56:40.720 --> 1:56:43.760 which isn't socialist. And you know, and all I could say, 1:56:43.800 --> 1:56:46.040 and all I could respond to this is like, that's 1:56:46.080 --> 1:56:50.000 what my subjects are using in the archive. And for me, 1:56:50.200 --> 1:56:55.080 it's far more productive to look for those slippages and 1:56:55.120 --> 1:56:57.680 look for those spaces and the archive when they are 1:56:57.720 --> 1:57:00.000 saying something that may be different than what we under 1:57:00.160 --> 1:57:03.040 stand it to be and that's a lot more productive 1:57:03.080 --> 1:57:06.200 avenue for analysis, and that, to me is really how 1:57:06.240 --> 1:57:09.600 we fulfill this obligation to study things from below, because 1:57:09.680 --> 1:57:12.600 we have to actually take them at their word and 1:57:12.800 --> 1:57:17.720 understand and try to understand what that actually meant for them, right, 1:57:17.920 --> 1:57:21.480 and what that meant on an everyday basis. And I 1:57:21.480 --> 1:57:23.480 think that there's a there's a sort of like practical 1:57:24.480 --> 1:57:28.400 like organizational like like you know, if if if you 1:57:28.480 --> 1:57:31.560 today want to do something like this, like I think 1:57:31.560 --> 1:57:33.640 I think there's there's an imperative there too, which is 1:57:33.680 --> 1:57:39.080 that like you actually do have to take seriously what 1:57:39.240 --> 1:57:43.400 people think and how that's different from the way that 1:57:43.440 --> 1:57:46.040 like you the organizer are thinking about this, because those 1:57:46.040 --> 1:57:48.360 are things that don't overlap and a lot of times, 1:57:49.240 --> 1:57:51.040 like you know, and it's it is not enough to 1:57:51.160 --> 1:57:54.200 just be like, well, these people want diggity. What they 1:57:54.200 --> 1:57:57.440 actually want is socialism or like what they actually want 1:57:57.440 --> 1:57:59.000 is the abolition of the classes. It's like you have 1:57:59.040 --> 1:58:03.200 to like believe them when they say that they want something, 1:58:04.240 --> 1:58:07.400 and you know, and and when you don't do that, 1:58:07.480 --> 1:58:10.640 and when you get these sort of disjuncts between like 1:58:10.640 --> 1:58:13.160 when you get these disjuncts between the sort of the 1:58:13.200 --> 1:58:15.680 sort of party bureaucracy on the top and what like 1:58:15.880 --> 1:58:18.800 people in the streets who are season factories want like, yeah, 1:58:18.840 --> 1:58:22.360 I think like things start to sort of come apart, exactly. 1:58:22.520 --> 1:58:25.360 And I know I think that, um that if we don't, 1:58:26.240 --> 1:58:29.320 you know, depart from the perspective of staying true to 1:58:29.440 --> 1:58:33.000 what the archive gives us, then there's only a risk 1:58:33.080 --> 1:58:36.320 that we're you know, every historian, every scholar is going 1:58:36.360 --> 1:58:40.520 to inject their own interpretation onto a document, right, But 1:58:40.640 --> 1:58:43.160 the best way to sort of safeguard that is to, 1:58:43.840 --> 1:58:45.560 you know, stay true to what it's saying, and that 1:58:45.680 --> 1:58:48.320 you know, the same goes for an activist and an 1:58:48.400 --> 1:58:51.600 organizer as for an intellectual, right, Like, if you don't 1:58:51.680 --> 1:58:55.720 depart from the perspective of what your constituents or what 1:58:56.160 --> 1:58:59.360 your group is saying, you know, what they're really saying, 1:58:59.400 --> 1:59:02.960 the word that they're using to describe what they're demanding, 1:59:03.520 --> 1:59:06.040 then you're only ever going to just be trying to 1:59:06.120 --> 1:59:09.760 sort of fit the you know, the square peg in 1:59:09.800 --> 1:59:12.800 the round hole. Yeah, and and that can go really 1:59:12.960 --> 1:59:19.280 really really spectacularly broad. Yeah, exactly, And you know, and 1:59:19.320 --> 1:59:21.920 that is you know what then leads to know in 1:59:21.960 --> 1:59:23.880 the case of the cordonus that will then lead to 1:59:24.000 --> 1:59:27.000 tensions that will really break out into the open in 1:59:27.080 --> 1:59:30.720 nineteen seventy three, in early nineteen seventy three, when the 1:59:31.640 --> 1:59:35.120 um Orlando MEAs the same person that starts that polemic 1:59:35.520 --> 1:59:38.240 in nineteen seventy two. By this point it becomes Finance 1:59:38.320 --> 1:59:43.000 Minister Um in the end administration and presents a plan 1:59:43.160 --> 1:59:45.680 to sort of devolve some of the factories that have 1:59:45.800 --> 1:59:49.320 been seized during the October crisis right back to their 1:59:49.360 --> 1:59:53.040 original owners. Uh. And then this creates a huge problem, 1:59:53.680 --> 1:59:57.000 huge tension between the base between workers and these factories 1:59:57.000 --> 2:00:00.320 that had sort of sacrificed everything and put their lives 2:00:00.440 --> 2:00:02.960 literally put their lives on the line to seize the 2:00:02.960 --> 2:00:05.880 factories in the first place. Um. And so then you 2:00:05.920 --> 2:00:09.080 have another sort of moment of mobilization of the corzonies 2:00:09.200 --> 2:00:14.240 across the city of Santiago in early vent three. That's 2:00:14.320 --> 2:00:16.880 very much an opposition to the government. Now, can I 2:00:16.960 --> 2:00:20.160 can I ask a brief sort of framing question about this, 2:00:20.200 --> 2:00:23.000 which is that, like, okay, so we talked about this 2:00:23.040 --> 2:00:26.080 in in in the interview we did with some modern 2:00:26.120 --> 2:00:29.760 Chalian activists, but like, what what is the population of 2:00:29.800 --> 2:00:32.400 Santiago relative to like the population of the entirety of 2:00:32.480 --> 2:00:36.720 Chile at this point, Like, how is it? Yeah, that 2:00:36.840 --> 2:00:38.960 is a great question that I don't actually have statistics 2:00:39.000 --> 2:00:42.200 like that. I can rattle no worries in my head. Um, 2:00:42.240 --> 2:00:46.240 but you know, I mean there's there is Uh, it 2:00:46.360 --> 2:00:49.959 is a great you know, Santia always the most populous 2:00:50.000 --> 2:00:52.680 region for sure, all right, and so rather the most 2:00:52.680 --> 2:00:56.960 populous city and then sort of metropolitan region itself is 2:00:57.080 --> 2:00:59.560 very densely popular. And is it still like like a 2:00:59.600 --> 2:01:02.440 pretest nificant like population of the entire country or is 2:01:02.440 --> 2:01:07.760 it less It is a significant population of the whole 2:01:07.760 --> 2:01:10.920 country for sure. Um, but there is tension in this. 2:01:11.000 --> 2:01:12.280 And then this is kind of the reason why I 2:01:12.320 --> 2:01:15.800 always try to steer somewhat away from these types of questions, 2:01:15.800 --> 2:01:18.600 because I'm sure this came up in your conversation with 2:01:18.640 --> 2:01:20.680 Chilean activists, is that you know, there is the phrase 2:01:20.720 --> 2:01:23.720 that Santiago is not Chile, and so there is a 2:01:24.000 --> 2:01:28.839 there is a tendency to rely on statistics of Santiago's population, 2:01:28.880 --> 2:01:32.120 of the metropolitan region's population to say like, oh, this 2:01:32.160 --> 2:01:34.760 is where the majority of people live. So if it 2:01:34.920 --> 2:01:37.920 happened in Santiago, then that must be true for all 2:01:38.000 --> 2:01:41.080 of Chile. Um, and that just isn't the case, right, 2:01:41.160 --> 2:01:44.320 Chile is a huge country. It may be very narrow, 2:01:44.800 --> 2:01:48.000 this is very long north to south, uh and you know, 2:01:48.040 --> 2:01:51.840 it is very distinct across the many regions of Chile. 2:01:52.400 --> 2:01:54.880 And so I have very much on the side of 2:01:54.960 --> 2:01:59.400 those that argue that Santiago is not Chile. Unfortunately, in 2:01:59.440 --> 2:02:01.520 the case of the cordonis, the majority of them do 2:02:01.560 --> 2:02:06.560 exist in Santiago. That said, in Concepcion. Um. You know, 2:02:06.640 --> 2:02:09.880 another Chile further to the south of Santiago, there is 2:02:09.920 --> 2:02:12.200 one of the other cities that we know for sure 2:02:12.680 --> 2:02:16.680 actually did have cordonias that were moderately successful as well. 2:02:16.720 --> 2:02:21.840 In fact, there is and now I'm completely forgetting her name, um, 2:02:21.880 --> 2:02:24.000 but there is a historian that has published a book 2:02:24.040 --> 2:02:27.320 about the cordonis in Concepcion. This is one of the 2:02:27.880 --> 2:02:30.600 few studies that sort of tries to look at cordona 2:02:30.720 --> 2:02:34.840 Is beyond Santiago itself, you know, And a very well 2:02:34.840 --> 2:02:37.840 taken point um on on my part here that like 2:02:38.120 --> 2:02:40.040 you know, a lot of our discussion today has been 2:02:40.080 --> 2:02:43.760 about Santiago, and so it's very much limited to Yeah, 2:02:43.880 --> 2:02:45.640 this is a this is a problem that you get 2:02:45.640 --> 2:02:50.280 a lot with like large urban movements, like I mean, 2:02:50.320 --> 2:02:52.680 so I run into Tianamen all the time, where it's like, 2:02:53.440 --> 2:02:56.160 you know, okay, so Tianeman, there's there's there's the big 2:02:56.200 --> 2:02:58.400 thing in Tianament. But this happens like cities all over 2:02:58.480 --> 2:03:01.400 China and there's just nothing. There's like almost nothing that 2:03:01.440 --> 2:03:05.080 has ever sort of like been written or has gotten 2:03:05.080 --> 2:03:07.520 out of what happened to everywhere else in the country. 2:03:07.600 --> 2:03:09.520 And so you get this, you get this very myopic 2:03:09.600 --> 2:03:14.120 view of like what was happening that I think loses 2:03:14.560 --> 2:03:17.360 a lot of the sort of like I mean, a 2:03:17.400 --> 2:03:19.360 lot of the diversity and a lot of the sort 2:03:19.400 --> 2:03:26.040 of you get a reality that is shaped by the 2:03:26.080 --> 2:03:28.520 specific experience of one place, which is not the safic 2:03:28.560 --> 2:03:32.240 experience of every other place, right exactly So like in 2:03:32.280 --> 2:03:35.440 the case of like Santiago and Cordona's right, like the 2:03:35.560 --> 2:03:39.720 labor working class that's making up this is factory labor, 2:03:39.800 --> 2:03:42.120 as we were saying, at the sort of level of 2:03:42.560 --> 2:03:46.680 consumer products. Right, Let's say, if you've had a cordon 2:03:46.920 --> 2:03:49.720 and say about Crazo, uh, the sort of coastal city 2:03:49.720 --> 2:03:52.000 of the ports city, um where you have a much 2:03:52.640 --> 2:03:56.400 different labor force, right with doc workers things like that, 2:03:56.760 --> 2:04:00.080 You're going to have a much different formation that's going 2:04:00.160 --> 2:04:02.560 to take place. And so as much as like my 2:04:02.680 --> 2:04:06.040 initial sort of attempt to understand the differences within the 2:04:06.040 --> 2:04:10.200 geography of Santiago, um, you know, I think was important, 2:04:10.520 --> 2:04:12.680 I always have to remind myself that, like, it's still 2:04:12.800 --> 2:04:17.280 just this one city, which is very different from the 2:04:17.360 --> 2:04:21.080 experience of a vast majority of chill lands. I mean, 2:04:21.120 --> 2:04:23.960 it's definitely a moment in which you know, there is 2:04:24.000 --> 2:04:30.280 still a very large rural population for sure, And I 2:04:30.280 --> 2:04:33.560 guess like that that brings me to so like, yeah, 2:04:33.760 --> 2:04:38.600 in in terms of sort of okay, I guess there's 2:04:38.640 --> 2:04:43.840 two directions here. One I guess is about what is 2:04:43.880 --> 2:04:48.240 the like, what is the rural population doing like while 2:04:48.320 --> 2:04:51.880 this is going on. And the second one, well, I 2:04:51.880 --> 2:04:54.600 guess I guess we could start there. Yeah. I mean, 2:04:54.640 --> 2:04:56.680 as we sort of mentioned earlier, there isn't a growing 2:04:56.680 --> 2:04:59.840 reform that is happening, right, and you are having a 2:05:00.080 --> 2:05:04.120 labor movement that is picking up rapid steam in the countryside, right, 2:05:04.120 --> 2:05:06.600 and you are having land seizures that's that are taking 2:05:06.640 --> 2:05:09.600 place and picking up steam. Um, and so that's a 2:05:09.640 --> 2:05:11.920 lot of what's going on in the countryside is UH 2:05:12.440 --> 2:05:16.240 both UH an increase in land seizures UH and increasingly 2:05:16.280 --> 2:05:19.360 militant land seizures. Is that, But you're also having UM 2:05:19.400 --> 2:05:23.600 an increased unionization. Right. So the labor code in Chile 2:05:24.040 --> 2:05:29.120 had a different set of regulations for rural labor than 2:05:29.160 --> 2:05:32.720 it did for urban or factory labor. Right. And so 2:05:33.040 --> 2:05:35.520 one of the things that on the end a period 2:05:35.760 --> 2:05:39.320 that we see is a sort of flourishing of organized 2:05:39.400 --> 2:05:42.200 labor in the countryside. So you are having a lot 2:05:42.280 --> 2:05:45.200 of party militants going out into the countryside as well 2:05:45.240 --> 2:05:48.880 as UH labor leaders locally in the countryside that are 2:05:49.040 --> 2:05:53.440 organizing rural laborers. UM. So you are having mass um 2:05:53.600 --> 2:05:56.680 union drives unfortunately, and I will be the first admit 2:05:56.760 --> 2:05:58.800 that I am largely you know, and this is again 2:05:58.880 --> 2:06:01.880 a consequence of like being an urban historian, I am 2:06:02.000 --> 2:06:06.720 largely ignorance of the inner dynamics what is happening on 2:06:06.920 --> 2:06:11.680 in the countryside. UM. Scholars like Florencia Malon or Heidi 2:06:11.600 --> 2:06:16.520 Tinsman have both produced outstanding works on this question. UM 2:06:16.560 --> 2:06:20.960 in terms of the relationship between land seizures and gender 2:06:21.280 --> 2:06:24.920 and indigenosity UM that is taking place on the countryside. 2:06:26.240 --> 2:06:28.480 So I guess, yeah, so you know, okay, so we yeah, 2:06:28.520 --> 2:06:29.960 we can't get it too much detail on this, but 2:06:30.040 --> 2:06:33.280 I would would it be broadly like accurate to say 2:06:33.280 --> 2:06:35.600 that it's not true that you're dealing with a situation 2:06:35.640 --> 2:06:38.520 where there's a huge sort of divide in the level 2:06:38.600 --> 2:06:43.480 of mobilization organization between the city and rural regions like that. 2:06:43.600 --> 2:06:45.640 This this isn't like a sort of like like you're 2:06:45.640 --> 2:06:48.360 not dealing with like like a vonde peasant situation where 2:06:48.400 --> 2:06:50.800 you have this enormous sort of reactionary base in the 2:06:50.800 --> 2:06:52.680 country side. Right, Yeah, you know, you definitely don't. Yeah, 2:06:52.720 --> 2:06:54.880 it's definitely not that UM. And you know there are 2:06:54.960 --> 2:06:58.120 attempts over the course of the illenda years, you know, 2:06:58.200 --> 2:07:00.520 the mirrors one of the sort of fronts that this 2:07:00.640 --> 2:07:03.560 is playing out in. But even the cordonates themselves, right, So, 2:07:03.600 --> 2:07:07.200 like one of the initial UM rallies and sort of 2:07:07.240 --> 2:07:12.280 mobilizations of the studios Maipu cordone is for UM the 2:07:12.480 --> 2:07:16.600 jailing and imprisonment of a series of rural militants and 2:07:16.680 --> 2:07:23.680 rural labors that in the area of Malipia. UM there 2:07:23.720 --> 2:07:27.480 are some activists and workers that are jailed UH and 2:07:27.640 --> 2:07:31.240 those the cordon actually marches into the city of Santiago, 2:07:31.320 --> 2:07:34.760 into the downtown part of Santiago to demand their release. Um. 2:07:34.800 --> 2:07:37.760 And this is like a disparate geography here that we're 2:07:37.760 --> 2:07:41.240 talking about, and so UM it is you know, this 2:07:41.320 --> 2:07:43.280 is an instance in which he's trying to see these 2:07:43.320 --> 2:07:49.160 sort of links be both be made and strengthened between 2:07:50.000 --> 2:07:53.840 UH factory labor in cities and world labor in the countryside. 2:07:56.160 --> 2:07:58.120 And I guess it brings me to the second point, 2:07:58.160 --> 2:08:00.840 which is like, Okay, so there is a right in 2:08:00.960 --> 2:08:05.680 Chile and it is not happy, um very much. Yeah. Yeah, 2:08:05.720 --> 2:08:07.800 And I guess one of the things I guess I 2:08:07.840 --> 2:08:11.800 wanted to talk about was so my my impression about 2:08:11.800 --> 2:08:15.640 a lot of what is happening in nine seventy three 2:08:15.760 --> 2:08:18.960 has to do with the fact that Chile's like trucker's 2:08:19.040 --> 2:08:23.440 movement is really right wing and that that has well, 2:08:23.920 --> 2:08:25.480 so part of that. Part of that is the CIA. 2:08:25.680 --> 2:08:30.040 Part of that is just this like a like part 2:08:30.080 --> 2:08:34.000 of it is the CIA's ability to keep striking truckers 2:08:34.040 --> 2:08:37.920 afloat and they're not working on. Part of it also 2:08:38.000 --> 2:08:41.680 is a consequence from this moment in October, right, in 2:08:41.720 --> 2:08:46.280 which the national business elite and national economic elite in 2:08:46.400 --> 2:08:51.120 Chile transform that trucker strike into the boss's strike. Right, 2:08:51.160 --> 2:08:54.120 So you do have this alliance being formed and strengthened 2:08:54.440 --> 2:08:57.200 at that moment as well, which will, as you're referring 2:08:57.240 --> 2:09:00.600 to invent three, there is another truck or strike that 2:09:00.680 --> 2:09:05.040 takes place that has even been more crippling in some 2:09:05.160 --> 2:09:08.440 senses than the initial one. Yeah. And then also also 2:09:08.520 --> 2:09:11.640 as I will mention literally every time, even though I 2:09:11.840 --> 2:09:13.000 I don't know if I can say that on air, 2:09:13.040 --> 2:09:16.240 but the part that I can say on air is um, 2:09:16.760 --> 2:09:20.800 yeah to their eternal, ignominious non glory. The a f 2:09:20.920 --> 2:09:22.920 l c I O is also heavily involved in that 2:09:23.920 --> 2:09:28.360 which is fun and good and uh yeah, a f 2:09:28.480 --> 2:09:34.440 l c I Oh, please stop overthrowing governments, helping deference. 2:09:35.440 --> 2:09:38.480 It's a very it's a very afi c IO history 2:09:38.920 --> 2:09:41.960 in relationship is actually very fascinating because during the dictatorship 2:09:42.000 --> 2:09:44.800 they will actually be on the other side and actually 2:09:45.160 --> 2:09:48.360 helping labor get back on its feet. Um and as 2:09:48.400 --> 2:09:50.840 a key point of resistance. So they're um in the 2:09:50.920 --> 2:09:54.640 late nineties of these organizing a boycott of Chilant products, 2:09:54.640 --> 2:09:57.200 which actually is a key point of pressure on the 2:09:57.240 --> 2:10:01.760 dictatorship to begin allowing for new um for a sort 2:10:01.760 --> 2:10:05.120 of new labor movement to begin emerging. Yeah, which that 2:10:05.200 --> 2:10:08.520 I at some point like I don't I don't think 2:10:08.520 --> 2:10:12.360 it can happen here, but I just did the podcast name, 2:10:12.960 --> 2:10:14.560 but yeah, I don't don't think. I don't think it 2:10:14.560 --> 2:10:16.320 can be this time. But like, yeahs at some point 2:10:16.360 --> 2:10:17.920 I do want to take a deeper dive into sort 2:10:17.920 --> 2:10:19.360 of like what the a f l C I O 2:10:19.480 --> 2:10:21.840 is doing through this period because they are like they're 2:10:21.880 --> 2:10:25.840 all over like yeah, there's a fascinating history. Yeah, Like 2:10:25.880 --> 2:10:27.800 I mean like you know, like my my, my, my 2:10:28.000 --> 2:10:30.040 last a fl C what are you doing things for 2:10:30.040 --> 2:10:33.600 this episode? Is so the fl C has the policy 2:10:33.600 --> 2:10:37.160 where like they don't like they don't associate with like 2:10:37.160 --> 2:10:40.360 like state union federations and they make one exception for it, 2:10:40.440 --> 2:10:42.879 and it's State Union Federation of the military died katorship 2:10:42.880 --> 2:10:46.800 in South Korea, which is like it like a good job, guys, 2:10:46.920 --> 2:10:53.480 like doing great here, this is going great. Yeah, but yeah, 2:10:53.480 --> 2:10:54.880 I guess can we can we get into sort of 2:10:54.880 --> 2:11:00.120 the the crisis is that like are the crisis that 2:11:00.200 --> 2:11:04.400 like precipitate the end of all end A totally yeah. 2:11:04.440 --> 2:11:06.760 So by this point, you know, as I mentioned by 2:11:09.040 --> 2:11:14.560 the opposition is largely um disarticulated. You have the National Party, 2:11:14.840 --> 2:11:18.000 you have the sort of far right organization UM that 2:11:18.040 --> 2:11:21.760 would be translated as Fatherland and Freedom pot three. I 2:11:21.760 --> 2:11:24.800 delivered that, or I translated as father land and freedom 2:11:24.840 --> 2:11:28.200 because I think it has a better, it conjures it better. 2:11:28.480 --> 2:11:31.920 Others will translated as father land and liberty. UM. But 2:11:32.200 --> 2:11:36.480 I'm a sucker for a literative forms, and so that's 2:11:36.720 --> 2:11:38.920 the translation that I use. I also think it conjures 2:11:38.960 --> 2:11:41.640 more the sort of fascistic elements, which this very much 2:11:41.760 --> 2:11:48.000 was a fascist organization. UM. Yes, No, I mean a 2:11:48.000 --> 2:11:51.680 lot of you know low Chicago boys will have ties 2:11:51.840 --> 2:11:55.680 to Pot three Oliver to that um. And so there 2:11:55.880 --> 2:12:00.800 have you know, rightest shock troops that are fomenting conflicts 2:12:00.840 --> 2:12:04.200 in the streets, um, that are also setting off bombs 2:12:04.240 --> 2:12:08.360 that are crippling the power grid, especially much later in 2:12:08.440 --> 2:12:12.200 nineteen seventy three. UM. But following that moment in nineteen 2:12:12.280 --> 2:12:16.160 seventy one, when the Popular Unity government is choose the 2:12:16.160 --> 2:12:19.720 alliance with the Christian Democrats, the Christian that pushes the 2:12:19.760 --> 2:12:23.800 Christian Democrats to begin forming an alliance with the National Party. 2:12:24.000 --> 2:12:26.920 And what happens then is that the left wing of 2:12:26.960 --> 2:12:30.320 the Christian Democrats splits from that party to form its 2:12:30.320 --> 2:12:34.440 own party of Left Christians. But then the consequence of 2:12:34.480 --> 2:12:37.280 that is that that means that the more rightest elements 2:12:37.320 --> 2:12:40.520 of the Christian Democrat party can consolidate their power and 2:12:40.600 --> 2:12:43.760 stream their ties with the national power. So that by 2:12:43.960 --> 2:12:46.920 you know, late nineteen seventy two, and very much by 2:12:46.920 --> 2:12:50.120 the March nineteen seventy three elections, which were sort of 2:12:50.160 --> 2:12:54.720 the key electoral moment that everyone was looking to. UM. 2:12:54.760 --> 2:12:57.600 At this moment, um, you have a you have a 2:12:57.800 --> 2:13:02.680 solid alliance of the right. UM. Now the end a 2:13:02.800 --> 2:13:09.360 coalition will win the March elections. UM. And that is 2:13:09.400 --> 2:13:14.560 really the moment that scholars agree that the switches sort 2:13:14.560 --> 2:13:17.640 of flipped for an opposition and they realize that they 2:13:17.640 --> 2:13:20.920 can no longer defeat the popular unique coalition at the 2:13:20.920 --> 2:13:23.600 ballot box, and that they now need to use extra 2:13:23.640 --> 2:13:28.320 constitutional means right, and so they begin developing sort of 2:13:28.360 --> 2:13:32.360 deploying the full force of those means. UM. And here 2:13:32.440 --> 2:13:34.920 is a point where the role of gender is very 2:13:34.960 --> 2:13:37.800 important because a lot of what the Right will do 2:13:38.080 --> 2:13:41.440 will be to mobilize the power of the power and 2:13:41.600 --> 2:13:46.640 symbol of women protesting um as a way to delegitimate 2:13:47.000 --> 2:13:50.240 the end a government and to de legitimate key figures 2:13:50.760 --> 2:13:54.440 uh in the end administration. So earlier there is a 2:13:54.520 --> 2:13:57.800 key protest that happens, which is the march of angry 2:13:57.840 --> 2:14:01.200 pots um and this is a a very traditional form 2:14:01.240 --> 2:14:04.640 of protests in Latin America which the Castle Lazo right 2:14:04.720 --> 2:14:08.160 the sort of banging of pots and pans in protest um, 2:14:08.640 --> 2:14:11.400 but the Right organizes it to be largely carried out 2:14:11.400 --> 2:14:14.640 by women as a way to protest what is seen 2:14:14.800 --> 2:14:19.120 as a you know, a lack of supply of basic 2:14:19.680 --> 2:14:24.400 food necessities for um families in Chile, which you know, 2:14:24.480 --> 2:14:27.320 we now know is a result of black market speculation 2:14:27.400 --> 2:14:29.440 in hoarding on a lot of the part of the 2:14:29.440 --> 2:14:34.200 sort of distribution centers controlled by the Right. Nevertheless, they 2:14:34.360 --> 2:14:39.879 essentially use this symbol of women heads of households marching 2:14:40.720 --> 2:14:43.120 in the streets in opposition to end. So that's one 2:14:43.120 --> 2:14:46.480 thing that happens later in nineteen three they will sort 2:14:46.520 --> 2:14:50.400 of reuse this tactic and deploy women to protest in 2:14:50.440 --> 2:14:55.000 front of UM the houses of key military figures UM 2:14:55.160 --> 2:14:59.200 that are in the Cabinet of End at this point UH. 2:14:59.440 --> 2:15:02.680 This will then forced the resignation of some of these 2:15:02.720 --> 2:15:06.200 figures from the allend cabinet. And then one of the 2:15:06.280 --> 2:15:09.640 key figures that has then replaced in the cabinet is 2:15:09.680 --> 2:15:12.240 none other than a cost Opine Chat. It will be 2:15:12.240 --> 2:15:15.400 welcomed into the cabinet and specifically will be welcoming into 2:15:15.440 --> 2:15:19.080 the cabinet because he's seen as a strict constitutionalist in 2:15:19.320 --> 2:15:23.000 the Chilean military UH and is not seen as any 2:15:23.040 --> 2:15:27.160 sort of threat to what is going on. Meanwhile, in 2:15:27.600 --> 2:15:30.560 late June of nineteen seventy three, there is an attempted 2:15:30.680 --> 2:15:33.320 coup that takes place in which you have a rogue 2:15:33.360 --> 2:15:38.480 regiment of the Chilean Army UM deploying tanks in front 2:15:38.560 --> 2:15:42.800 of Lamlada, the presidential palace in Santiago. UH. That is 2:15:42.880 --> 2:15:45.800 large that is put down. It's also one of the 2:15:45.920 --> 2:15:49.440 last moments that the cord donates themselves will mobilize and 2:15:49.520 --> 2:15:52.960 that all the Coresonists in Santiago will seize their territories, 2:15:53.960 --> 2:15:57.560 erect barricade. It's cut off transportation to prevent any sort 2:15:57.560 --> 2:16:00.880 of large scale coup from taking play essentially to try 2:16:00.880 --> 2:16:04.600 and isolate that regiment just within front of LaMeta, to 2:16:04.880 --> 2:16:09.280 allow for the wings of the armed forces that are 2:16:09.280 --> 2:16:11.680 still loyal to the president at this point to put 2:16:11.760 --> 2:16:15.400 that down. So that has put down, and then in 2:16:15.480 --> 2:16:20.080 between late in June nineteen seventy three and September ninety 2:16:20.160 --> 2:16:23.920 three is what scholars, specifically Peter Winn for two, is 2:16:23.960 --> 2:16:27.760 a creeping coup begins to take place. And the creeping 2:16:27.840 --> 2:16:30.800 coup has, you know, a multi fascist strategy. As I 2:16:30.840 --> 2:16:33.560 mentioned earlier, there is the bombing of electrical grids, so 2:16:33.720 --> 2:16:38.360 you have you know, increasing blackouts, instability, things of that nature, right, 2:16:38.440 --> 2:16:43.840 fearmongering in very real sense, palpable senses. UM, you also 2:16:43.879 --> 2:16:47.680 have a shake up amongst different members of different branches 2:16:47.680 --> 2:16:51.920 of the armed forces, which those that are loyal to 2:16:52.560 --> 2:16:56.879 the constitution, that are the constitutionalists, are pushed out, and 2:16:57.040 --> 2:17:00.120 as a result, then you have the coup plotters that 2:17:00.160 --> 2:17:05.920 are ready to essentially overthrow the government. UM achieve positions 2:17:05.920 --> 2:17:08.320 of authority in which that they can give orders. And 2:17:08.400 --> 2:17:10.480 this is a key factor. This may seem like a 2:17:10.520 --> 2:17:15.039 small factor, but the Chilean military had historically been trained 2:17:15.080 --> 2:17:18.000 in the Prussian model of military training. Right, So it 2:17:18.040 --> 2:17:23.800 was a very strict regimented hierarchical structure in which historically 2:17:23.800 --> 2:17:26.959 had been very loyal within that hierarchy. So it was 2:17:27.000 --> 2:17:31.120 important that the coup plotters would achieve positions of higher 2:17:31.520 --> 2:17:35.120 authority to be able to actually effectuate a coup, especially 2:17:35.160 --> 2:17:40.080 after the attempted coup fails in June. So on the 2:17:40.120 --> 2:17:44.879 morning of September eleventh, UM, you have Hawker hunter jets 2:17:44.920 --> 2:17:48.680 that again bombing the presidential palace UH, and you have 2:17:48.959 --> 2:17:53.879 a deployment of UM military forces throughout the city to 2:17:54.440 --> 2:17:57.080 put down any sort of armed force or any sort 2:17:57.080 --> 2:18:00.240 of resistance. Right leading up to this moment, you had 2:18:00.280 --> 2:18:05.039 deployments of both the Chilean militarized police, the Kada brows, 2:18:05.200 --> 2:18:08.720 which are actually functionally militaries. They're part of the armed 2:18:08.720 --> 2:18:10.959 forces in Chile, it's not just militarized in the sense 2:18:10.959 --> 2:18:14.760 of tactics and weaponry, to raid factories in the search 2:18:14.800 --> 2:18:18.040 of arms, right, things of that nature. So you already 2:18:18.040 --> 2:18:22.080 had UM this sort of daily occurrence taking place. In 2:18:22.240 --> 2:18:24.640 a consequence of that, right, is that then these forces 2:18:24.760 --> 2:18:28.200 know the weak spots in these factories, they know the 2:18:28.200 --> 2:18:32.199 capabilities of these factories and things like that. Uh Cordlon 2:18:32.320 --> 2:18:35.119 Vacuna McCane will actually be the place that will witness 2:18:35.360 --> 2:18:38.600 some of the fiercest fighting of what would be referred 2:18:38.640 --> 2:18:41.040 to as the Battle of Santiago. You know, often when 2:18:41.040 --> 2:18:43.880 we talk about the Chilean coup, we talked about strictly 2:18:43.879 --> 2:18:47.439 a September eleventh, ninety three. UM. The Battle of Santiago 2:18:47.480 --> 2:18:51.400 actually rages for a few days after September eleven. It's 2:18:51.440 --> 2:18:54.840 not just a quick UM you know, in and out 2:18:54.920 --> 2:18:57.720 mission there is there is, there are forms of resistance 2:18:57.760 --> 2:19:01.480 that take place UM, and the Namacana is one of 2:19:01.600 --> 2:19:04.840 the places that this takes place. There are two Chilean historians, 2:19:04.920 --> 2:19:10.440 Mario Garces and Sebastian Laba, that published a masterful, wonderful 2:19:10.440 --> 2:19:13.480 book UM that is all about as UM called the 2:19:13.520 --> 2:19:16.920 kun La Legua and Lagua was a historic Pope Lacion 2:19:17.120 --> 2:19:19.920 that was just to the west of the Pacuna Macana 2:19:20.120 --> 2:19:24.119 factory and the workers of factories in Pocuna Macana, specifically 2:19:24.160 --> 2:19:27.760 the Sumar textile mill that we mentioned earlier. UM will 2:19:27.840 --> 2:19:32.760 essentially lead UM a march gathering other workers, saving those 2:19:32.760 --> 2:19:35.960 that they can and essentially holding their ground for as 2:19:36.040 --> 2:19:39.320 long as they can in the Poplacion of La Lagua uh. 2:19:39.360 --> 2:19:42.480 In fact, I have some testimonies of workers and documents 2:19:42.520 --> 2:19:46.680 that I've uncovered. UM. One worker in particular described the 2:19:47.080 --> 2:19:51.040 battle that raged there is as being like hell on earth. UM. 2:19:51.120 --> 2:19:54.360 That they had helicopters firing from the sky, they had 2:19:54.400 --> 2:19:58.520 tanks surrounding them. UM. So they were under fire from 2:19:58.560 --> 2:20:03.439 both the land up in the air, and so ultimately 2:20:03.480 --> 2:20:07.760 then the government is overthrown, right UM. I end. It's 2:20:07.840 --> 2:20:10.840 unclear to this day if I end a committed suicide, 2:20:10.920 --> 2:20:13.680 if he was killed, we just we don't know. We 2:20:13.800 --> 2:20:16.720 do know that he refused to leave the presidential palace. 2:20:16.840 --> 2:20:20.080 We do know that he delivers one final address, very 2:20:20.160 --> 2:20:25.600 famous address UM over the radio of Chile. UM. And 2:20:25.640 --> 2:20:28.400 then after that week we know that that his corpse 2:20:29.000 --> 2:20:32.320 UM appears and a lot of the materials that the 2:20:32.360 --> 2:20:36.160 military will put out. Military takes control of communication networks. 2:20:36.920 --> 2:20:39.520 Many of the communication networks and press networks were already 2:20:39.560 --> 2:20:42.840 controlled by the right UM, so it's very easy for 2:20:42.879 --> 2:20:47.440 them to gain access to these methods UM to sort 2:20:47.440 --> 2:20:51.039 of spread their message. UM. And this is where things, 2:20:51.120 --> 2:20:55.360 you know, historically speaking, get very interesting. In the difference 2:20:55.400 --> 2:20:59.120 between our sort of um conventional wisdom and what actually 2:20:59.480 --> 2:21:02.800 took place it or takes place. Right, The original structure 2:21:02.959 --> 2:21:08.000 of the military junta that takes command was designed as 2:21:08.000 --> 2:21:12.480 a tripartite structure that would rotate amongst different branches of 2:21:12.560 --> 2:21:17.040 the armed forces to prevent precisely what happens with the 2:21:17.280 --> 2:21:21.160 figure of Gusto Pinochet taking power himself, to prevent such 2:21:21.160 --> 2:21:24.680 a thing from happening. Right. Uh. Ultimately, though, over the 2:21:24.720 --> 2:21:29.320 course of the nineteen seventies, you have Pino Chick consolidating power. Uh. 2:21:29.360 --> 2:21:31.800 In fact, if you've ever seen the image of him 2:21:31.800 --> 2:21:35.520 that's sitting cross arm with the sunglasses on, it's like 2:21:35.560 --> 2:21:38.199 one of the most recognizable photos of him from this time. 2:21:39.280 --> 2:21:42.160 That photo is actually the actual original version of the photo. 2:21:42.440 --> 2:21:45.000 You have the full junta behind him taking a picture. 2:21:45.400 --> 2:21:49.560 But yeah, yeah, and it's not so much even he 2:21:49.879 --> 2:21:52.640 did it, but it's that that photo just over time 2:21:52.680 --> 2:21:55.920 became so associated with him because it's such a starring 2:21:55.959 --> 2:21:59.240 image of him sitting there. Um that it it's sort 2:21:59.280 --> 2:22:03.600 of functionally recreated the sort of purging that heat takes 2:22:04.080 --> 2:22:07.480 that he'll carry out essentially. You know, also what they 2:22:07.480 --> 2:22:11.480 will do immediately is that they will close the Congress, 2:22:12.000 --> 2:22:14.920 they will dissolve the COOT, the National Labor Federation that 2:22:14.959 --> 2:22:19.280 we discussed earlier, UH, and they will essentially dissolve the 2:22:20.160 --> 2:22:24.600 UM conciliation councils that oversawing sort of collective bargaining. They 2:22:24.600 --> 2:22:29.080 will freeze any sort of petitions pleegos from factory labors, 2:22:30.280 --> 2:22:34.800 and they will begin to purge labor leaders across both 2:22:35.440 --> 2:22:38.600 the national spectrum of labor leadership as well as you know, 2:22:39.240 --> 2:22:43.480 through the course of and well into will be begin 2:22:43.560 --> 2:22:50.519 purging factory level leaderships. UM. They will institutionalized torture, UM, 2:22:50.560 --> 2:22:55.199 they will institutionalized forced disappearance, and all of these things 2:22:55.760 --> 2:22:59.959 UM constitute how they're essentially able to hold onto path 2:23:00.000 --> 2:23:02.440 hour In those early days, there's a state of siege 2:23:02.600 --> 2:23:06.360 that has declared, which means that all civil liberties UM 2:23:06.680 --> 2:23:09.920 have essentially been suspended. And all of this is in 2:23:09.959 --> 2:23:14.720 the name of national security. And that's really the key thing, UM. 2:23:14.800 --> 2:23:19.440 And so everything from the labor movement is shut down UM, 2:23:19.520 --> 2:23:21.400 and then it will begin to re emerge. And that's 2:23:21.440 --> 2:23:25.240 really like where I think my research and my dissertation 2:23:25.600 --> 2:23:27.640 and of a key intervention that that I'm trying to 2:23:27.680 --> 2:23:30.760 make is that you know, seventy three wasn't the end 2:23:30.760 --> 2:23:32.680 of the story, Like, yes, it was the end of 2:23:32.680 --> 2:23:35.080 the Cordons induced to gothers with a capital C and 2:23:35.080 --> 2:23:38.560 a capital I. But the idea of a territorial labor 2:23:38.640 --> 2:23:42.080 organization will re emerge in the late nineteen seventies and 2:23:42.120 --> 2:23:45.760 in the nineteen eighties when protests against the dictatorship began 2:23:45.800 --> 2:23:48.480 to flourish. And this is something that I mean, I 2:23:48.480 --> 2:23:50.320 guess this is the projecting into the future, but this 2:23:50.360 --> 2:23:52.560 is something that I was I don't know that thinking about, 2:23:53.240 --> 2:23:57.080 I don't quite know how to think about. Which is 2:23:57.120 --> 2:24:02.560 the connection between like can we draw online between the Cardonis, 2:24:02.600 --> 2:24:06.000 the sort of the pro democracy movement that eventually, like 2:24:06.240 --> 2:24:11.920 through Pinochet's incompetence and their skill, like brings down the 2:24:11.920 --> 2:24:16.600 dictatorship and the sort of the really vibrant like me 2:24:16.760 --> 2:24:19.600 really for the last like twenty years, like incredibly vibrant 2:24:19.640 --> 2:24:24.080 sort of like student protests, but I mean just just 2:24:24.120 --> 2:24:28.119 sort of like like leftist street movements in Chile, because 2:24:28.120 --> 2:24:30.760 I mean, like, I don't know, like I guess the 2:24:31.160 --> 2:24:36.080 impression that I got when I was talking to like 2:24:36.160 --> 2:24:42.640 the Chilean organizers was that like organized labor wasn't playing 2:24:42.720 --> 2:24:46.600 much of a role in this, and so yeah, I 2:24:46.640 --> 2:24:48.360 guess I was just wondering, like, how, how how do 2:24:48.400 --> 2:24:51.360 we think about sort of this trajectory? And I know 2:24:51.440 --> 2:24:54.360 this is like fifty years but no, I mean, I 2:24:54.360 --> 2:24:57.520 mean my dissertation is trying to the sort of branch 2:24:57.640 --> 2:25:01.320 this full trajectory. And it's the beautiful, wonderful question. Um. 2:25:01.360 --> 2:25:03.160 And you're right, you know, the the activists that you 2:25:03.200 --> 2:25:08.000 spoke to. Um, that is a very common, um, commonly 2:25:08.040 --> 2:25:10.520 held view. And it's a commonly held view for a 2:25:10.560 --> 2:25:13.760 couple of reasons. One is that one of the what 2:25:13.959 --> 2:25:17.480 is seen as one of the main protagonists in the 2:25:17.480 --> 2:25:20.240 pro democracy movements that take place in the nineteen eighties 2:25:20.640 --> 2:25:23.280 are precisely those figures we talked about at the very 2:25:23.280 --> 2:25:26.800 beginning of our conversation. The Popolodorus the Publodorus are seen 2:25:26.959 --> 2:25:31.760 as the protagonists that protests the dictatorship, largely because they 2:25:31.760 --> 2:25:33.920 are right. This is I'm not trying to say that 2:25:33.959 --> 2:25:37.039 they were not by any means, They clearly were. Um. 2:25:37.080 --> 2:25:40.800 We have great studies of this. Kathy Schneider's book Shantytown 2:25:40.840 --> 2:25:43.959 Protests and p H Chile is just a wonderful study 2:25:43.959 --> 2:25:49.400 of this um. They were protagonists and the geographic space, 2:25:49.480 --> 2:25:51.920 the site of the Pope lacon Is, is where a 2:25:51.959 --> 2:25:57.720 lot of the protests are going down. UM. But labor 2:25:57.800 --> 2:26:02.360 did play a part, and labor did play a key part. 2:26:02.959 --> 2:26:04.800 And this is part of my argument is that not 2:26:04.959 --> 2:26:08.119 only does labor play a part, labor plays a key 2:26:08.240 --> 2:26:13.360 part in initiating the protests that begin in the early 2:26:13.440 --> 2:26:17.600 nineteen eighties. Now by the late nineteen eighties, the there 2:26:17.600 --> 2:26:20.880 people are certainly right that labor is no longer anything 2:26:20.920 --> 2:26:23.959 close to the power it was pre nineteen seventy three 2:26:24.120 --> 2:26:27.440 or even earlier in that decade by any means. But 2:26:28.080 --> 2:26:30.600 in the late nineteen seventies and the early nineteen eighties, 2:26:30.959 --> 2:26:34.840 specifically in the space of a kunamakina and workers that 2:26:34.879 --> 2:26:40.680 are coming out of that tradition play incredibly instrumental and 2:26:40.760 --> 2:26:44.760 key roles. So, for example, there's a gentleman Manuel boost Dos. 2:26:44.760 --> 2:26:47.360 It's a member of the Christian Democratic Party. He's a 2:26:47.360 --> 2:26:51.080 worker at the Sumar Textile mill in the cotton plants. Specifically, 2:26:51.760 --> 2:26:56.480 he will at the time become president of Sumars Cottons Union. 2:26:57.120 --> 2:26:59.959 He will then go on to along with other labor 2:27:00.120 --> 2:27:04.200 leaders found the National Union Coordinator where the c n S. 2:27:05.560 --> 2:27:08.039 You will become president of that and he will become 2:27:08.080 --> 2:27:11.959 one of the key figures along with other labor leaders 2:27:11.959 --> 2:27:16.680 that will initiate and lead to the pro democracy protests 2:27:16.760 --> 2:27:20.120 that begin in the early nineteen eighties. So much so 2:27:20.600 --> 2:27:24.600 that he is UM at one point relegated, which this 2:27:24.680 --> 2:27:27.240 is a way one of the tactics the military used, 2:27:27.800 --> 2:27:33.520 UM would be to relegate uh perceived agitators or provocateurs 2:27:33.879 --> 2:27:36.879 two different parts of the country right out of Stay 2:27:36.920 --> 2:27:39.760 Santiago in the case of Bustos, so at one point 2:27:39.800 --> 2:27:41.800 he is relegated to the far north of the country. 2:27:42.240 --> 2:27:45.680 He's also exiled at a certain point. He's also jailed 2:27:45.879 --> 2:27:48.960 at a certain point. UM. So even if we you know, 2:27:49.280 --> 2:27:51.760 even if we don't look at the archival record in 2:27:51.840 --> 2:27:54.440 terms of what Bustos is saying, what Bustos is doing, 2:27:54.760 --> 2:27:57.120 if we just look at what the military is doing 2:27:57.320 --> 2:28:01.240 to Bustos and to his colleagues in n S, then 2:28:01.280 --> 2:28:04.960 we that should tell us that they perceived them as 2:28:04.959 --> 2:28:09.280 a legitimate threat, and that they perceive labor as a 2:28:09.360 --> 2:28:13.480 legitimate threat. And this really, you know, explains why you 2:28:13.560 --> 2:28:18.160 have a shift in UM. The dictatorship's policies with regard 2:28:18.200 --> 2:28:21.879 to labor between the early nineteen seventies the late nineteen 2:28:21.879 --> 2:28:24.720 seventies and eighties. So here I'm drawing a lot on 2:28:24.760 --> 2:28:28.560 the work of Rodrigo Araya, who is a scholar here 2:28:28.600 --> 2:28:31.080 in Chile who has done a great deal in showing 2:28:31.120 --> 2:28:35.200 that early in the dictatorship you had a series of 2:28:35.440 --> 2:28:38.840 labor leaders who were opposed to Allende, who were still 2:28:38.920 --> 2:28:43.880 labor right, still pro labor, but anti Laftist and anti Allende, 2:28:43.959 --> 2:28:47.400 who take control of some of the key labor federations, 2:28:47.560 --> 2:28:53.400 namely the Copper Federation, and begin to sort of designate 2:28:53.480 --> 2:28:57.920 themselves as the key figures of labor UM. And there's 2:28:57.920 --> 2:29:01.320 an attempt then by the dictatorship, who essentially make a 2:29:01.360 --> 2:29:06.200 corporateist model of labor and integrate them and control them 2:29:06.240 --> 2:29:10.879 from the top down. UM. Ultimately that backfires because in 2:29:11.040 --> 2:29:14.680 doing so, they the military refuses to recognize some of 2:29:14.760 --> 2:29:18.520 these individuals and instill their own um sort of puppets, 2:29:18.520 --> 2:29:22.000 if you will, their own labor leaders, which then causes resentment, 2:29:22.120 --> 2:29:27.000 which then pushes that group to an oppositional stance UM, 2:29:27.040 --> 2:29:31.400 which then allows for more connectives to shoot more connections 2:29:31.440 --> 2:29:34.320 to be made between that group, which would be loosely 2:29:34.360 --> 2:29:37.000 referred to as the Group of ten UH and individuals 2:29:37.000 --> 2:29:39.880 such as Bustos and others that are forming this National 2:29:39.959 --> 2:29:44.040 Union Coordinator. Those two groups will ultimately in the early 2:29:44.120 --> 2:29:48.440 nineteen eighties form a new group, which is the National 2:29:48.440 --> 2:29:52.600 Workers Command UM. And this actually group is formed at 2:29:52.640 --> 2:29:56.000 a point in which Bustos himself has been exiled out 2:29:56.000 --> 2:29:59.280 of the country. UM. So, you know, there's a debate 2:29:59.320 --> 2:30:01.800 to be had with not the formation of the Command 2:30:01.840 --> 2:30:06.440 was an attempt to consolidate control away from the Union 2:30:06.480 --> 2:30:09.720 Coordinator and Bustos, which was much more open to working 2:30:09.760 --> 2:30:12.320 with members of the left and the communists at the time, 2:30:12.720 --> 2:30:15.320 compared to the say of the Group of Ten, who 2:30:15.400 --> 2:30:19.680 you know, we're much more opposed to working with leftists. UM. 2:30:19.840 --> 2:30:23.240 So that's really you know, one of the big differences 2:30:23.280 --> 2:30:26.160 between labor and a pre nineteen seventy three period and 2:30:26.200 --> 2:30:30.280 a post nineteen seventi three period is there's still a 2:30:31.200 --> 2:30:35.360 struggle for labor rights, protection of workers in unionism, right 2:30:35.400 --> 2:30:38.680 to strike, right to collectively bargain. But what's missing in 2:30:38.680 --> 2:30:41.400 that post nineteen seventy three period, or rather what has 2:30:41.480 --> 2:30:47.080 been murdered disappeared, tortured, executed by the dictatorship. Is a 2:30:47.160 --> 2:30:52.320 theory of power for unions, right, the sort of leftist influence, 2:30:53.080 --> 2:30:55.760 you know, you could call it Marxism, Leinism, you can 2:30:55.800 --> 2:30:59.240 call it sort of a social democracy, but some theory 2:30:59.360 --> 2:31:03.480 of power that animated unionism and animated the labor movement 2:31:03.480 --> 2:31:07.080 in the pre nineteen seventy three period, that is is 2:31:07.600 --> 2:31:11.400 essentially being purged over that course of the nineteen seventies 2:31:11.440 --> 2:31:15.080 into the nineteen eighties. UM. But in addition to these 2:31:15.080 --> 2:31:17.959 sort of national level developments, which you know, for me, 2:31:18.120 --> 2:31:21.440 Boostos is the straight line that connects the territory of 2:31:21.560 --> 2:31:26.440 Kunamacina to this national level. Within Vucunumacina itself, you have 2:31:26.680 --> 2:31:29.400 two groups that begin to emerge in the late nineteen 2:31:29.440 --> 2:31:33.800 seventies nineteen eighties. The first would be the Solidarity Group 2:31:34.760 --> 2:31:38.480 UH and then the second would be Union Unity. And 2:31:38.720 --> 2:31:42.400 both of these new organizations emerging of Acunamericana and emerged 2:31:42.600 --> 2:31:48.560 specifically as territorial organizations of labor. So they are in 2:31:48.640 --> 2:31:52.640 opposition too what BOOSTOS and others are trying to do, 2:31:52.680 --> 2:31:57.400 which is reform the sort of national labor hierarchy, hierarchy 2:31:57.400 --> 2:32:01.840 bureaucratic or you know, the bureaucratic excuse me approach to labor. 2:32:02.600 --> 2:32:05.160 They're specifically opposed to that and are arguing that labor 2:32:05.360 --> 2:32:10.400 should be organized territorially because it allows a greater flexibility 2:32:10.480 --> 2:32:14.360 for the workers to respond to the new realities of 2:32:14.400 --> 2:32:19.040 a dictatorship, and specifically to the new realities of the 2:32:19.200 --> 2:32:23.280 new constitution that the dictatorship puts in place in as 2:32:23.280 --> 2:32:25.840 well as the new labor plan that they put in 2:32:25.879 --> 2:32:28.640 place through a series of laws in the late nineteen 2:32:28.680 --> 2:32:34.120 seventies in early nineties that severely curtail labor's ability to 2:32:34.440 --> 2:32:39.279 both organize. So, for example, the closed shop is essentially 2:32:39.280 --> 2:32:44.280 done away with. UH. They also, UM will limit the 2:32:44.320 --> 2:32:48.760 ability to strike. You could you can strike, However, after 2:32:48.879 --> 2:32:55.959 thirty days UM the management can begin hiring scab labors 2:32:56.080 --> 2:32:59.120 essentially to break the strike. And if a strike lasted 2:32:59.160 --> 2:33:03.040 past sixty days, that the management was allowed to fire 2:33:03.200 --> 2:33:05.680 all of striking workers because after sixty days they were 2:33:05.680 --> 2:33:08.240 considered to have walked off the job and we're no 2:33:08.280 --> 2:33:12.680 longer considered employees. Also, one of the key you know 2:33:12.800 --> 2:33:17.280 innovations that the sort of technocratic advisors to the dictatorship 2:33:17.320 --> 2:33:21.160 as um implements in the new labor Code is the 2:33:21.280 --> 2:33:26.720 individual labor contract, right, which means that workers now are 2:33:26.760 --> 2:33:30.920 contracted individually, which also then prevents any sort of national 2:33:31.040 --> 2:33:35.160 level union from bargaining on behalf of a sector wide 2:33:35.280 --> 2:33:38.760 or an industry wide contract. That is no longer allowed. 2:33:39.200 --> 2:33:41.360 And so it's for all of those reasons that you 2:33:41.400 --> 2:33:44.280 have these two groups begin to emerge and saying no, 2:33:44.440 --> 2:33:46.920 we need to focus our efforts on the base, we 2:33:46.959 --> 2:33:50.600 need to focus them territorially. And for me, that is 2:33:50.640 --> 2:33:54.160 a straight line between the legacy of the cordonis and 2:33:54.160 --> 2:33:56.360 what we're seeing in the nineties, and then the other 2:33:56.520 --> 2:33:59.439 sort of discursive straight line, like if that's the material 2:33:59.760 --> 2:34:04.520 kind action, the discursive straightliness of these organizations are using 2:34:04.560 --> 2:34:07.720 the discourse of dignity and a dignified life in the 2:34:07.800 --> 2:34:10.440 ex source material that we have. That makes sense, and 2:34:10.640 --> 2:34:13.560 I think that also, But that also, I guess partly 2:34:13.600 --> 2:34:19.680 explains why, like why organized labor like ceases after that point, 2:34:19.800 --> 2:34:22.560 because I guess it is just sort of like the 2:34:23.280 --> 2:34:26.520 it's the sort of the the anilable shifts in what's 2:34:26.560 --> 2:34:30.720 happening in terms of the actual law. And then actually, 2:34:30.760 --> 2:34:32.520 I don't know, I guess I just should ask about this, 2:34:32.560 --> 2:34:35.200 like is there also a sort of like like you 2:34:35.240 --> 2:34:41.000 also get a sort of like like another sort of 2:34:41.040 --> 2:34:46.200 geographic shift in in how factories are distributed, like through 2:34:46.200 --> 2:34:50.200 the use Totally you have essentially a d industrialization, a 2:34:50.280 --> 2:34:53.000 policy of the industrialization, and you have a total reversion 2:34:53.160 --> 2:34:56.040 to what we can think of as a nineteenth century 2:34:56.600 --> 2:35:00.440 economic export economy UM for Chile. Right, so you have 2:35:01.200 --> 2:35:06.640 much more focus and investment into commodity exports, be it UM, 2:35:06.680 --> 2:35:10.680 the fishing sector, the agricultural sector, things like that. Right. So, like, 2:35:10.800 --> 2:35:13.480 for example, if you go into your grocery store, uh 2:35:13.520 --> 2:35:16.680 and look at some of the fruits, specifically, say grapes, 2:35:17.360 --> 2:35:18.960 more often than not they're going to come from Chile, 2:35:19.920 --> 2:35:23.160 especially in off seasons. Right. The benefit of Chile being 2:35:23.160 --> 2:35:25.720 in the southern hemisphere, for say, consumers in the United 2:35:25.760 --> 2:35:28.280 States is that then you have access to things that 2:35:28.360 --> 2:35:31.360 you wouldn't have access to otherwise. Uh. And so the 2:35:31.400 --> 2:35:36.720 dictatorship will prioritize this UM over the idea of industry. 2:35:36.720 --> 2:35:42.840 So you have a total reversion to UM, importing goods 2:35:42.840 --> 2:35:48.080 and services that would have been produced nationally or locally UM. 2:35:48.160 --> 2:35:50.280 And so what this means then for a lot of 2:35:50.360 --> 2:35:53.920 the labor that happens in these zones right as you 2:35:53.920 --> 2:35:58.959 have massive layoffs. That's another innovation UM that the dictatorship 2:35:59.040 --> 2:36:01.840 and the Chicago Boys will introduce as the ability for 2:36:02.240 --> 2:36:06.520 management to fire UM at a mass level and have 2:36:06.640 --> 2:36:10.280 that be legal UM. And so you have high you 2:36:10.320 --> 2:36:17.360 have skyrocketing unemployment amongst factory label labor, such that like yes, 2:36:17.440 --> 2:36:20.600 by the nineteen eighties have a refounding of a national 2:36:20.680 --> 2:36:26.199 labor confederation also the acronym being the COOT. The difference, however, 2:36:26.280 --> 2:36:29.879 is that it's under such a much different labor framework. 2:36:30.320 --> 2:36:32.920 It's also in a situation in which industrial labor is 2:36:32.959 --> 2:36:36.560 just not the main sector of labor UH and in 2:36:36.640 --> 2:36:40.320 its founding statutes, if the Coup pre nineteen seventy three 2:36:40.360 --> 2:36:45.000 was identified as the only national labor confederation, the statutes 2:36:45.200 --> 2:36:49.680 poste and in the late eighties when it's reformed, allows 2:36:49.720 --> 2:36:53.480 for there to be other national confederations UM. And actually, 2:36:53.560 --> 2:36:55.879 this is one of the great debates that takes place 2:36:56.240 --> 2:37:01.720 between those organizations at the base Infocuamkina and these national 2:37:01.800 --> 2:37:04.400 level organizations is whether or not there should be one 2:37:05.160 --> 2:37:07.760 labor confederation or whether or not there should be many 2:37:07.800 --> 2:37:12.440 different labor confederations organized all ideological lines, which is essentially 2:37:12.480 --> 2:37:16.600 a code word for anti communism. Right. That the idea 2:37:16.600 --> 2:37:21.039 of the ideological labor central was a way to exclude 2:37:21.160 --> 2:37:24.720 the left from gaining control in organized labor like it 2:37:24.760 --> 2:37:28.040 had in the pre nineteen period. And so by the 2:37:28.160 --> 2:37:32.359 dawn of nineteen nineties, when democracy, or rather when democratic 2:37:32.400 --> 2:37:37.000 elections returned to Chile, you have labor in a much 2:37:37.160 --> 2:37:40.960 different position. Uh. And that's why you have this very 2:37:41.000 --> 2:37:47.160 weakening UM series or period under the Concert government, the 2:37:47.240 --> 2:37:51.640 ruling coalition, the governing coalition that takes power in Patricia 2:37:51.680 --> 2:37:55.800 Apo and winning the presidency. Um, it's just much different. 2:37:56.480 --> 2:37:59.080 And it's it's a strait jacket illegally because the ninete 2:37:59.360 --> 2:38:01.640 Constitution is still in place, right, it's still in place 2:38:01.680 --> 2:38:06.280 to this day. Uh. And that's actually been it's the 2:38:06.600 --> 2:38:09.480 period of Concert test that is the period where you 2:38:09.640 --> 2:38:14.200 really have the most weakening of UM labor. It's also 2:38:14.240 --> 2:38:17.760 the period we have the most privatizations that are taking place, 2:38:17.959 --> 2:38:21.240 just former state owned companies. It's we could say that 2:38:21.320 --> 2:38:25.199 it's the period that is the most neoliberal period UH 2:38:25.240 --> 2:38:29.520 in Chile relative to the civilian The period of civilian 2:38:29.520 --> 2:38:36.680 military dictatorship. Yeah, and I guess that's sort of like 2:38:36.760 --> 2:38:41.480 that that that's the thing that it just gets you to, Well, 2:38:41.520 --> 2:38:44.920 the last sort of twenty years of like of student 2:38:45.000 --> 2:38:47.800 led protests and of sort of ecological protests I make 2:38:47.879 --> 2:38:51.320 I guess you like Thempucha have always been like fighting, 2:38:51.600 --> 2:38:56.520 but the way that from from Spanish clone the only 2:38:56.959 --> 2:39:00.520 indigenous group that was never conquered by the Spanish, but 2:39:00.680 --> 2:39:03.480 a gain. But I guess like like the axis on 2:39:03.560 --> 2:39:07.520 which the left is sort of like built on like 2:39:07.920 --> 2:39:10.920 through that period just shifts and that's I guess where 2:39:10.959 --> 2:39:14.000 you get the modern like that the sort of modern 2:39:14.360 --> 2:39:16.880 like configuration of the left that's been in the streets 2:39:16.879 --> 2:39:19.480 and last sort of like you do. And this is 2:39:19.480 --> 2:39:22.440 a this is the reason why I sort of draw 2:39:22.920 --> 2:39:27.000 a hard line ending my study in for two reasons. 2:39:27.040 --> 2:39:30.560 One is that it's the is The first is the 2:39:30.600 --> 2:39:35.760 election of Pineta to the president city, Sebastian Pinietta as 2:39:35.840 --> 2:39:38.760 his first term in and so it's the first moment 2:39:38.800 --> 2:39:42.480 that someone from the concertson is not elected as the 2:39:42.480 --> 2:39:48.760 president they had governed sent from. So um that's really 2:39:48.800 --> 2:39:51.760 the what Peter Win and other scholars have referred to 2:39:51.800 --> 2:39:54.640 as the putch check period which extends all the way 2:39:54.760 --> 2:39:58.840 from three to that moment, is inclusive of the Concert 2:39:59.320 --> 2:40:05.959 government because of fair um adherence to the neoliberal economic model. UM. 2:40:06.040 --> 2:40:09.800 That's when that period ends. Also a year later in 2:40:10.240 --> 2:40:13.440 eleven is when the student protests, and that's when you 2:40:13.520 --> 2:40:18.400 have a new cycle in Chilean social movements led by 2:40:18.440 --> 2:40:22.480 the students. Right prior, you know posted the return of 2:40:22.520 --> 2:40:26.280 democracy again, the return of democratic elections in nineteen ninety. 2:40:26.320 --> 2:40:28.960 I think this is a very important distinction between a 2:40:29.040 --> 2:40:32.120 return to democracy and a return of democratic elections, which 2:40:32.280 --> 2:40:34.560 seems to be a confusion between not a confusion but 2:40:34.640 --> 2:40:39.000 a splippage between the form of democracy, a free and 2:40:39.040 --> 2:40:44.160 fair elections, and the content of democracy UM. And so 2:40:44.200 --> 2:40:46.040 a lot of people will referred to nineteen nineties to 2:40:46.080 --> 2:40:48.880 return to democracy. But I think that the past thirty 2:40:48.959 --> 2:40:53.920 years of governments in Chile shows us, especially the past 2:40:53.920 --> 2:40:58.440 two years of uprising and resistance against that model, show 2:40:58.520 --> 2:41:02.680 us that democracy has yet to fully return UM. But 2:41:02.800 --> 2:41:06.000 in that period, you know, in the nine nineties, on 2:41:06.640 --> 2:41:12.600 street protests were not seeing as an affected effective measure 2:41:13.480 --> 2:41:16.720 UM as a as as the way to protest. Right, 2:41:16.760 --> 2:41:21.960 they obviously were effective in the period of dictatorship UM. 2:41:22.000 --> 2:41:25.520 But after that there's no there there's a nut not 2:41:25.600 --> 2:41:30.000 necessarily discrediting of sorts, right, but there's not the emphasis 2:41:30.040 --> 2:41:33.400 on them that there was during the dictatorship, and certainly 2:41:33.400 --> 2:41:36.000 not that there was in the pre nineteen three period. 2:41:36.360 --> 2:41:39.160 It's not until the students take to the streets in 2:41:39.600 --> 2:41:43.359 eleven that you have this revival of the street protest 2:41:43.560 --> 2:41:47.480 as a as a viable form um of resistance and 2:41:47.520 --> 2:41:50.200 protests in Chile. And you know, it's no surprise then 2:41:50.280 --> 2:41:54.400 that in October twenty nineteen, when the the s e 2:41:54.440 --> 2:41:58.199 though the uprising takes place, that it's students that were 2:41:58.360 --> 2:42:02.280 once again the vanguard of this UM. And you know 2:42:02.320 --> 2:42:06.600 when they're jumping turnstiles in the subways too, in protest 2:42:06.800 --> 2:42:10.600 of proposed transportation hike. UM I was. I was actually 2:42:10.680 --> 2:42:15.080 luckily enough to be living here in early pandemic UM, 2:42:15.120 --> 2:42:17.879 and a lot of people that I spoke to UM 2:42:17.920 --> 2:42:21.039 at protests and things like that, were very quick to 2:42:21.160 --> 2:42:24.960 tell me that it was not thirty pos it's thirty 2:42:25.040 --> 2:42:28.840 years that they were protesting. Yeah, And you know, and 2:42:28.879 --> 2:42:32.640 I guess that also like the left wing forces that 2:42:32.680 --> 2:42:35.400 took over the state like it's it's it's the reason 2:42:35.480 --> 2:42:38.440 why a lot of that wounds up sort of being 2:42:38.440 --> 2:42:42.080 about the constitution, because yeah, you know you still have this, 2:42:42.720 --> 2:42:50.040 you still have Pinochet's like constition remains in fact. Yeah, yeah, 2:42:50.160 --> 2:42:52.600 And how I used to know the name of this 2:42:52.600 --> 2:42:54.000 is and one of the episodes, I think, I think 2:42:54.040 --> 2:42:56.520 like the guy who wrote it like it was like 2:42:56.560 --> 2:42:59.400 an enormous hyak fanboy and called it like the Constitution 2:42:59.440 --> 2:43:02.720 of Liberty or something. Yeah, it was. It was a 2:43:02.760 --> 2:43:06.200 hand it was a hand selected team of very few 2:43:06.200 --> 2:43:11.160 individuals that was handpicked by the dictatorship to write the constitution. Um. 2:43:11.200 --> 2:43:13.879 You know, there was the there was a veneer of 2:43:14.640 --> 2:43:19.920 democratic support insofar as the dictatorship in nineteen eighty holds 2:43:20.040 --> 2:43:24.000 a referendum on whether or not to vote up, down, yes, 2:43:24.120 --> 2:43:28.959 or no for the new constitution. Right, um, the yes 2:43:29.200 --> 2:43:34.600 vote one. However, there is many sources at the time 2:43:34.840 --> 2:43:38.320 as well as scholars that have claimed that that victory 2:43:38.440 --> 2:43:44.560 was not a valid victory um by any means. Um. 2:43:44.600 --> 2:43:50.520 But you know, right now, in the post twenty nineteen period, um, 2:43:50.840 --> 2:43:54.160 a sort of effect of the uprising that took places, 2:43:54.160 --> 2:43:57.120 there is a constitutional convention that's taking place as we 2:43:57.200 --> 2:44:01.600 speak here in Santiago, UM that's headquartered in the former 2:44:01.680 --> 2:44:07.000 National Congress. During the dictatorship, the h Congress has moved 2:44:07.160 --> 2:44:09.960 to the ports city of the Appraiso away from Santiago, 2:44:10.640 --> 2:44:12.760 but in the old National Congress building is where the 2:44:12.760 --> 2:44:15.800 new Constitution provision has taken place. And actually two nights 2:44:15.800 --> 2:44:20.280 ago there was a marathon voting session in which a 2:44:20.320 --> 2:44:24.360 series of social rights were adopted into the cost into 2:44:24.400 --> 2:44:27.560 the text of the new Constitution. And these social rights included, 2:44:27.600 --> 2:44:31.600 among other things, the right to unionization, the right to strike, 2:44:32.360 --> 2:44:36.840 the right to collectively bargain, the right for workers via unions, 2:44:37.000 --> 2:44:41.480 to have a say in the direction and business of 2:44:41.560 --> 2:44:45.800 an enterprise of a business itself, to participate in management essentially. 2:44:46.640 --> 2:44:48.720 But it also included things such as a right to 2:44:48.840 --> 2:44:53.040 healthcare publicly funded healthcare system, the right to social security 2:44:53.440 --> 2:44:58.840 publicly funded and it included a right to housing, which 2:44:59.000 --> 2:45:02.600 specifically include the phrase of a right to a dignified, 2:45:02.959 --> 2:45:06.279 adequate home, as well as a right to the city 2:45:06.360 --> 2:45:09.439 that included the phrase that the right to the city 2:45:09.640 --> 2:45:13.360 is for the development of a dignified life. Uh. And 2:45:13.440 --> 2:45:16.879 so really that is kind of the epilogue UM to 2:45:16.879 --> 2:45:19.360 to the story that we've been talking about this whole time. Now, 2:45:19.560 --> 2:45:22.280 you know, we don't know if the constitution itself will 2:45:22.280 --> 2:45:24.959 be adopted. Um. There's going to be an exit vote 2:45:25.040 --> 2:45:28.840 on September four of this year in which Chileans, under 2:45:29.440 --> 2:45:32.039 it's a mandatory vote, will vote up or down on 2:45:32.040 --> 2:45:34.680 whether or not to adopt the new constitution. So we 2:45:34.680 --> 2:45:38.000 can't say for certain if these rights will actually become 2:45:38.120 --> 2:45:42.680 rights of citizenship in Chile, but as of now, those 2:45:42.800 --> 2:45:45.520 rights are included in the text that will be voted 2:45:45.520 --> 2:45:49.000 on in September. Yeah, and I think I think that's 2:45:49.000 --> 2:45:50.600 a pretty good place to end it, unless you have 2:45:50.680 --> 2:45:52.360 anything else that you want to know. I think that 2:45:52.400 --> 2:45:55.360 that's a really you know, there's a really nice symmetry there. Um. 2:45:55.600 --> 2:45:57.160 And you know, I stayed up are too late the 2:45:57.200 --> 2:45:59.440 other night watching that vote. I think it went to 2:45:59.480 --> 2:46:02.680 like two in the morning. Um, but it was you know, 2:46:02.720 --> 2:46:05.640 it was an exciting thing to see. Um. And you know, 2:46:05.680 --> 2:46:08.920 it is an exciting moment to be here in Chile, 2:46:10.040 --> 2:46:12.360 especially after having to be away for two years during 2:46:12.440 --> 2:46:16.560 during the pandemic. Yeah. Um, yeah, well, thank thank you 2:46:16.640 --> 2:46:20.200 so much for thank you so much for talking with us. Oh, 2:46:20.200 --> 2:46:21.959 thank you thank you so much for having me. It's 2:46:21.959 --> 2:46:24.000 been a it's been a real pleasure, you know. And 2:46:24.040 --> 2:46:27.680 I hope that um my ramblings are are sensible to 2:46:27.720 --> 2:46:31.200 your listeners, um and um, that they're able to take 2:46:31.240 --> 2:46:34.320 something from it, because I do think there's an importance 2:46:34.840 --> 2:46:36.959 in this history especially you know, this year is the 2:46:36.959 --> 2:46:41.240 fifty year anniversary of the Cordonos emergence, and so it's 2:46:41.240 --> 2:46:43.360 a great time to to sort of spread knowledge of 2:46:43.360 --> 2:46:47.120 this this moment in tril in history. Yeah, and I 2:46:47.120 --> 2:46:50.199 guess do you have anything like that you want to plug? 2:46:52.400 --> 2:46:55.560 Uh No, I don't have anything specifically, Um. Yeah, no, 2:46:55.720 --> 2:46:59.480 still cranking away in the archives and working on my dissertation. 2:46:59.680 --> 2:47:02.200 So sadly I don't have a book to plug or 2:47:02.200 --> 2:47:03.800 anything like that. But you know, give me a couple 2:47:03.840 --> 2:47:07.879 of years. Uh, and I a book back on when 2:47:07.920 --> 2:47:14.640 it comes out. Yeah. Yeah. Well, in the meantime, you 2:47:14.879 --> 2:47:20.200 two can form a large section of industrial democracy in 2:47:20.200 --> 2:47:24.240 your workplace. Involves taking it over. Oh yeah, go go 2:47:24.320 --> 2:47:27.320 do that. This this has been they could happen here. 2:47:27.400 --> 2:47:29.280 You can find us on Twitter and Instagram. It happen 2:47:29.320 --> 2:47:32.480 here pod. Actually, by the time this is dropping, we 2:47:32.520 --> 2:47:35.320 will be a few days away from Merket. Killdoy's new 2:47:35.360 --> 2:47:38.520 series Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff, which is rad. 2:47:38.800 --> 2:47:41.760 You're gonna hear a lot of cool people doing cool things. 2:47:41.760 --> 2:47:44.400 That is dropping on May Day on May one, and 2:47:45.240 --> 2:47:47.760 after that we have we we we have another show dropping, 2:47:47.840 --> 2:47:50.440 which is which is which is a Ghost Church about 2:47:51.040 --> 2:47:53.920 ghost church eat things. It's It's gonna be good. It's 2:47:53.920 --> 2:47:56.360 it's Jamie Loftus. It's Jamie loft Is doing Jamie Loftus 2:47:56.400 --> 2:47:58.680 things about a bunch of a bunch of the sort 2:47:58.680 --> 2:48:02.680 of like American ghost churches and people who talk to ghosts. 2:48:02.720 --> 2:48:22.360 So yeah, go listen to that. Have fun by everyone, Hello, 2:48:22.400 --> 2:48:25.280 welcome to it could happen here the podcast that is 2:48:25.320 --> 2:48:28.879 my podcast Now. I'm your host, Margaret Killjoy and with 2:48:28.920 --> 2:48:32.960 me is the Webby Award winning Sophie Lichterman as our producer, 2:48:33.640 --> 2:48:37.480 as well as the actual hosts of the show, who 2:48:38.280 --> 2:48:41.320 go without mentioning because I don't see any reason to 2:48:41.360 --> 2:48:46.840 include them. Can that just be the intro to every 2:48:46.840 --> 2:48:51.320 episode from now? This is better than our all of 2:48:51.360 --> 2:48:58.000 our regular intros. Oh I loved that. Um yeah, so 2:48:58.640 --> 2:49:01.400 what are we talking about today? Also on podcast, Garrison 2:49:01.480 --> 2:49:05.840 Davis and Christopher Wong Lou. Yes. So, so today we 2:49:05.879 --> 2:49:09.879 are we are talking about the sort of long and 2:49:09.920 --> 2:49:14.560 incredibly tragic history of Japanese anarchism. Well, okay, actually Japanese 2:49:14.600 --> 2:49:17.360 anarchism before World War Two, because after World War Two 2:49:17.360 --> 2:49:20.320 was an entirely different story. And as much as I 2:49:20.360 --> 2:49:22.600 love people in construction helmets just like beating the ship 2:49:22.640 --> 2:49:26.040 out of cops with large sticks, uh, that story is 2:49:26.080 --> 2:49:29.320 extremely complicated. If you want to hear it, talk more 2:49:29.360 --> 2:49:32.039 about that story a little bit. Uh. The third part 2:49:32.040 --> 2:49:34.800 of my Nobasi Kikishi episode has a lot of people 2:49:34.879 --> 2:49:38.280 in construction help us with sticks. But you know this 2:49:38.360 --> 2:49:43.120 is you know, okay, So the history of anarchism generally 2:49:43.320 --> 2:49:47.160 is the history of tragedy, but even by by anarchist standards, 2:49:47.200 --> 2:49:49.720 the the history of Japanese anarchism is just an absolute 2:49:49.720 --> 2:49:52.840 welter of heartbreak and loss. Um. Out of all of 2:49:52.879 --> 2:49:55.359 the people that we're going to talk about today, exactly 2:49:55.440 --> 2:49:57.560 one of the non Russian anarchist is going to live 2:49:57.600 --> 2:49:59.120 to see world the end of World War two, and 2:49:59.160 --> 2:50:02.640 he's Korean. Every single other person is either going to 2:50:02.760 --> 2:50:05.560 be executed by the state, assassinated, kill themselves, drink themselves 2:50:05.560 --> 2:50:09.920 to death, so this is uh, this is this is 2:50:09.920 --> 2:50:12.600 an extreme bleak story in a lot of ways. Good 2:50:12.640 --> 2:50:14.800 to have one of those optimistic episodes every once in 2:50:14.840 --> 2:50:18.160 a while. Yeah, you know, I mean I think the 2:50:19.600 --> 2:50:24.880 gets thrown down a well. Uh, well, okay, it's it's 2:50:24.959 --> 2:50:28.280 unclear whether anyone got thrown down away. I'm sorry, I'm 2:50:28.320 --> 2:50:32.240 skipping ahead and I don't actually know. Well, we will, 2:50:32.280 --> 2:50:35.880 we will get to the wells uh yeah. I also okay, 2:50:35.879 --> 2:50:38.480 so there's a lot of Japanese anarchists and we don't 2:50:38.480 --> 2:50:41.480 have that much time. So if you're like in a 2:50:41.600 --> 2:50:47.080 sawa u sakataro, stand um, I'm sorry, we can't cover 2:50:47.160 --> 2:50:50.240 all of them. Do you ever think about the history 2:50:50.240 --> 2:50:53.920 of anarchists in Japan? That is weird is that the 2:50:53.959 --> 2:50:57.440 beginning of the story pre dates they're actually being anarchists 2:50:57.440 --> 2:51:01.080 in Japan, or specifically, they're being up in the anarchists. Um. 2:51:01.680 --> 2:51:05.040 There's this huge degree of sort of like cultural exchange 2:51:05.040 --> 2:51:09.640 and influence running between Japan and Russia by riche of 2:51:09.720 --> 2:51:12.600 the fact that they are, you know, next to each other, um, 2:51:14.040 --> 2:51:17.240 and especially in the seventies and eighties. This is one 2:51:17.280 --> 2:51:21.160 of the sort of this is important again because Russia 2:51:21.400 --> 2:51:23.360 in this period is like this is like the hotbed 2:51:23.400 --> 2:51:25.680 of anarchism, right, like they're they're killing, they're killing those 2:51:25.720 --> 2:51:28.320 are they're they're they're doing all the things. They're going 2:51:28.360 --> 2:51:31.280 to the countryside there. The Russian anarchists are short of 2:51:31.320 --> 2:51:33.800 on the move, and a lot of things the Russian 2:51:33.840 --> 2:51:36.959 anarchists wind up like in Japan, baccoon In is there 2:51:37.000 --> 2:51:41.040 for like he like he has some extremely complicated arrangement 2:51:41.080 --> 2:51:43.560 who like he like sneaks on a boat and he 2:51:43.640 --> 2:51:45.560 like gets out and he beats one of the sort 2:51:45.560 --> 2:51:49.840 of like samurai like Beiji Restoration revolutionaries and they chat 2:51:49.840 --> 2:51:53.600 for a bit and then he leaves. So he he 2:51:53.720 --> 2:51:56.040 you know, but you's not. This is when he was 2:51:56.160 --> 2:52:00.720 escaping Siberia. Yeah, well I think, yeah, he's get my Siberia. 2:52:00.760 --> 2:52:04.520 And then he somehow convinces like the American embassy or 2:52:04.600 --> 2:52:06.600 something to like let him on a boat to Japan. 2:52:07.160 --> 2:52:10.119 It's it's a very weird story. It's like all things 2:52:10.680 --> 2:52:14.280 bakun In are. But the most problem in anarchists to 2:52:14.280 --> 2:52:18.920 spend time in Japan is uh Lev Meshnikov. Um Mashnikov 2:52:19.040 --> 2:52:21.600 is like he's like a pretty big deal in Russian 2:52:21.600 --> 2:52:25.440 Revolutionary circles like he's he's considered like okay, so the 2:52:26.040 --> 2:52:29.160 big sort of like anarchists left wing moving to Japan 2:52:29.200 --> 2:52:32.200 is the populist right. It's called the road nicks Um 2:52:33.720 --> 2:52:36.480 and there there's two big figures in it. There's uh 2:52:36.720 --> 2:52:42.800 Nikolai Turnachevski and uh this guy, uh Lev Menshikov, and 2:52:43.879 --> 2:52:46.960 you know, he's Manikov like he knows everyone he knows, 2:52:47.000 --> 2:52:50.560 like he's friends, was just like every single person and 2:52:50.640 --> 2:52:53.160 we will get too more of his friends later. But 2:52:53.240 --> 2:52:55.160 like he's a kind of part of bakun in Um. 2:52:55.480 --> 2:52:57.120 He he has. He has a very similar career to 2:52:57.160 --> 2:52:58.520 Beacun in a lot of ways, where he just sort 2:52:58.520 --> 2:53:01.680 of like runs a especially like Eastern Europe. He's like 2:53:01.760 --> 2:53:05.600 runs around the world being in revolutions um, which is 2:53:05.640 --> 2:53:07.720 good work if you can get it. Yeah, yeah, it's 2:53:07.720 --> 2:53:09.520 it's pretty exciting. And he doesn't die, which is sort 2:53:09.520 --> 2:53:13.760 of incredible. Well, I love that for him, So he's 2:53:13.760 --> 2:53:21.400 still around. Yes, this is very sad, you know, I 2:53:21.440 --> 2:53:23.720 mean he look, look, this is this is the goal 2:53:23.720 --> 2:53:26.680 of Russian cosmism. No is it actually cosmism? I have 2:53:26.800 --> 2:53:31.560 no idea. Yeah, the cosmonaut people, yeah, yeah, yeah, they 2:53:31.600 --> 2:53:34.520 would bring back all the dead people. Oh no, I 2:53:34.560 --> 2:53:36.240 don't know about this. I only know a weird thing 2:53:36.240 --> 2:53:40.959 where there was like anarchist cosmonauts in like nineteen twenties Russia. Yeah. Yeah, 2:53:41.000 --> 2:53:44.879 so the their their whole thing was like, Okay, so 2:53:45.560 --> 2:53:48.000 they thought that the anarchists had like been defeated in 2:53:48.040 --> 2:53:50.560 the revolution because they were insufficiently committed to bringing the 2:53:50.600 --> 2:53:52.879 dead back to life, and that that that, you know, 2:53:52.879 --> 2:53:55.360 the whole thing was like they like they're there's some 2:53:55.400 --> 2:53:57.760 the people who were involved in the Soviet like rocket programs, 2:53:57.800 --> 2:53:59.680 and they're doing this because they want to colonize the 2:53:59.680 --> 2:54:01.440 Moon and Mars so they can fit all of the 2:54:01.440 --> 2:54:04.080 dead poleteria they're gonna bring back to life. Wait, are 2:54:04.080 --> 2:54:07.640 you telling the truth to me? This is true? This 2:54:07.680 --> 2:54:13.879 is this is I've been trying to fight for the 2:54:13.920 --> 2:54:17.760 Anarchist Necromancer League for so long, which our slogan is 2:54:17.920 --> 2:54:20.480 um raised the dead to fight like hell for the living. 2:54:22.840 --> 2:54:28.680 That's that's It's incredible. But yeah, no, like the Russian cosmism, 2:54:28.680 --> 2:54:31.400 it's a weird one cosmism. It's like a weird mix 2:54:31.480 --> 2:54:35.480 of like like natural philosophy quote unquote, which is just 2:54:35.480 --> 2:54:37.600 like different films or like folk magic or whatever, and 2:54:37.640 --> 2:54:40.160 like religion and spiritual stuff. But also it's like a 2:54:40.200 --> 2:54:44.240 predecessor to like the modern transhumanism. Um, it's an it's 2:54:44.280 --> 2:54:48.119 an interesting little collection of ideas that was popular at 2:54:48.280 --> 2:54:51.119 the very beginning of the twentieth century. It's it's part 2:54:51.120 --> 2:54:53.800 of my thesis that no one normal has ever been 2:54:53.840 --> 2:54:56.760 involved in the production of a rocket like I mean 2:54:58.760 --> 2:55:01.000 yeast like on the so made in and then there's 2:55:01.000 --> 2:55:04.400 just like the Nazis and it's like, oh, zero normal people. 2:55:06.840 --> 2:55:09.600 I have no counterargument there was that because there was 2:55:09.640 --> 2:55:12.320 the guy who did all the multi stage rocketry, the 2:55:12.440 --> 2:55:15.560 nihilist who killed the czar, who built the bomb that 2:55:15.680 --> 2:55:19.200 killed the Tzar. He like when I talked about this 2:55:19.240 --> 2:55:22.240 in my podcast, probably already listened to this. You have 2:55:22.280 --> 2:55:25.280 a podcast? WHOA, yeah, I really just I'm here. I'm 2:55:25.280 --> 2:55:29.600 gonna plug this every like five minutes. On this episode, um, 2:55:30.800 --> 2:55:33.120 you can learn about the bomb maker who killed the 2:55:33.120 --> 2:55:36.280 czar and his what he brought to the world in 2:55:36.360 --> 2:55:43.440 terms of rocketry and manned rocket travel. Anyway, please continue 2:55:43.560 --> 2:55:46.920 on what show Margaret? Well, okay, is this podcast that 2:55:46.920 --> 2:55:49.120 I'm recording on right now? When does it come out. 2:55:49.360 --> 2:55:51.879 When are you listening to it, dear readers. Okay, well, 2:55:51.920 --> 2:55:54.960 then next Monday you can listen to cool people who 2:55:55.000 --> 2:55:59.520 did cool stuff, which is my podcast. Yeah, I'm so 2:55:59.520 --> 2:56:02.080 good at my up. Anyway, my job is to interrupt 2:56:02.120 --> 2:56:04.920 you with please tell me more about the cosmos and 2:56:04.959 --> 2:56:07.440 how they relate to Japan. The Cols was actually nothing 2:56:07.480 --> 2:56:14.360 to do with this, unfortunately, but yeah, but lev uh 2:56:14.840 --> 2:56:18.560 lev Meshnikov like he also he like fights with Garibaldi 2:56:18.600 --> 2:56:21.360 to reunify Italy. He's just like all over the place. 2:56:21.920 --> 2:56:25.440 But he's an interesting guy because okay, so there's like 2:56:25.480 --> 2:56:29.240 a lot of foreigners who go to Japan, but he 2:56:29.760 --> 2:56:34.680 like makes Japanese friends and like learns Japanese before he 2:56:34.720 --> 2:56:38.200 goes there, which makes him like utterly different than like 2:56:39.240 --> 2:56:41.200 the people who are writing like Westerners who are writing 2:56:41.240 --> 2:56:43.240 but Japan in this period, who like don't speak very 2:56:43.280 --> 2:56:47.400 good Japanese and never leave their houses. So nothing has changed. 2:56:48.200 --> 2:56:51.560 Yeah yeah, well like except weirdly this one guy is 2:56:51.600 --> 2:56:54.039 doing better. Oh no, I mean nothing has changed from 2:56:54.080 --> 2:56:58.600 now no where. No Westerners actually they just pretend to 2:56:58.640 --> 2:57:01.720 care about Japan. Okay, yeah, it's a it's it's time. 2:57:02.160 --> 2:57:04.119 There's actually That's one of the brunning themes of these 2:57:04.120 --> 2:57:07.959 two episodes is like there's a lot of stuff about this, 2:57:08.200 --> 2:57:12.440 about anarchism and about Japan just like don't change. But 2:57:12.840 --> 2:57:15.400 you know, so one of the things that winds up 2:57:15.400 --> 2:57:17.600 doing is he winds up spending two years teaching at 2:57:17.600 --> 2:57:20.480 this thing called the Tokyo School of Foreign Languages. And 2:57:20.560 --> 2:57:22.520 this this is a bunch of major impacts, one of 2:57:22.560 --> 2:57:27.520 which is on Masnikov himself, who he becomes heavily influenced 2:57:27.560 --> 2:57:31.119 by by the Major Restoration, which he thinks of as 2:57:31.160 --> 2:57:34.120 like this like but he looks at it, this is 2:57:34.160 --> 2:57:36.359 like as a revolution, like this is an anti feudal revolution. 2:57:36.480 --> 2:57:40.200 This is the most successful social revolution of the century. 2:57:40.240 --> 2:57:42.280 It's like he thinks that it's like destroyed the sort 2:57:42.280 --> 2:57:46.119 of stratified class system and creates this like possibility of 2:57:46.160 --> 2:57:50.920 like mass social mobility for commoners. And Okay, so this 2:57:51.000 --> 2:57:54.800 is like not the best interpretation of what's going on 2:57:55.640 --> 2:57:58.000 with with the Major Restoration. Where I mean, so the 2:57:58.040 --> 2:58:02.760 Major Restoration sort of the field system in Japan, it 2:58:02.760 --> 2:58:04.720 does a lot of other bad things. What is it? 2:58:05.040 --> 2:58:07.760 Like I don't know that much about this, yea, So 2:58:07.800 --> 2:58:10.600 maybe the audience doesn't either okay, so the major restoration 2:58:10.959 --> 2:58:13.160 is a thing that happens where so so Japan has 2:58:13.160 --> 2:58:15.720 been ruled by a shogun for like a long time, 2:58:16.440 --> 2:58:19.400 and the shogun runs the Fueld system. It's very elaborate. 2:58:19.440 --> 2:58:22.920 Everyone has at least sort of minute hard prodcasts. But 2:58:22.959 --> 2:58:30.800 eventually there's this kind of um like that, there's there's 2:58:30.840 --> 2:58:36.680 this sort of it's complicated. It's this kind of nationalist 2:58:36.720 --> 2:58:39.800 movements by a bunch of um like a bunch of 2:58:39.800 --> 2:58:42.960 the samurai clans. Who this is? This is happening in 2:58:42.959 --> 2:58:47.120 the six season, they mobilized to overthrow like the shogunate 2:58:47.200 --> 2:58:49.720 and basically like restore the emperor to power. The emperor 2:58:49.720 --> 2:58:52.520 has been like a puppet head like figurehead guy for 2:58:52.520 --> 2:58:55.280 like two years and they bring it back to power. 2:58:56.640 --> 2:58:58.320 Because I'm a hack of a fraud and a fraud. 2:58:58.320 --> 2:59:00.760 I'm forgetting their exact slogan. It's some it's something like 2:59:03.080 --> 2:59:05.959 it's Revere the Emperor, and I can't remember what the 2:59:05.959 --> 2:59:08.959 other part of the slogan is. It's very similar to 2:59:09.000 --> 2:59:10.840 that to the Box rebellions. Looking it's it's this sort 2:59:10.840 --> 2:59:12.880 of I mean, there's a lot of things going on here. 2:59:12.920 --> 2:59:15.440 It's kind of a reaction to so in the in 2:59:15.520 --> 2:59:19.400 the sixties, like Japan is sort of forcibly opened to 2:59:19.680 --> 2:59:23.160 the world by like Comma our Paris showing up with 2:59:23.160 --> 2:59:27.839 a bunch of like the largest gunboats anyone has ever seen. Um. 2:59:27.879 --> 2:59:30.000 And this like this forces Japan to sort of like 2:59:30.040 --> 2:59:34.640 abandon its isolation dispositions. And yeah, and you know, and 2:59:34.720 --> 2:59:36.959 you get this sort of classic intellectuals you're looking at 2:59:37.000 --> 2:59:39.400 this and they're going like, Okay, if we don't do something, 2:59:39.720 --> 2:59:43.080 like we're gonna get colonized. And so they do. And 2:59:43.080 --> 2:59:44.280 the thing that they do is that they do this 2:59:44.360 --> 2:59:48.000 revolution and they overthrow um, they overthrow the shogunate. There's 2:59:48.000 --> 2:59:50.280 all this like there's there's like a trillion anime set 2:59:50.280 --> 2:59:52.480 in this period because there's like that, There's there's like 2:59:52.480 --> 2:59:55.040 like there there are there are squads of samurai swordsmen 2:59:55.080 --> 2:59:57.360 like running around like stabbing each other in Tokyo with 2:59:57.400 --> 3:00:00.720 like kyoto and like it's it's wild, it is it 3:00:00.840 --> 3:00:03.760 is a it is a time and and this sort 3:00:03.760 --> 3:00:08.000 of this is what sort of consolidates the modern Japanese 3:00:08.080 --> 3:00:11.560 nation state. Um. You know, I've talked about this in 3:00:11.600 --> 3:00:13.720 my Kishi episodes, but like it sets off this wave 3:00:13.760 --> 3:00:18.720 of colonialism. They like they conquer Okaido, they conquer the islands, 3:00:18.800 --> 3:00:23.959 they do all this horrible colonialism stuff. But there's there's 3:00:23.760 --> 3:00:27.120 it's really unclear what the revolution is actually going to 3:00:27.200 --> 3:00:29.520 mean because like there has been a revolution, right, like 3:00:29.520 --> 3:00:32.320 the sort of like feutal like class system has been 3:00:32.320 --> 3:00:34.640 swept away. There's all of this sort of there's all 3:00:34.680 --> 3:00:37.160 this this energy and the masses. There's like one of 3:00:37.200 --> 3:00:40.800 one of the things that Meshakov finds is like he 3:00:40.920 --> 3:00:44.200 so he gets to Japan in like the in the 3:00:44.280 --> 3:00:49.119 eighteenth seventies um, and he's seeing like the first size 3:00:49.160 --> 3:00:54.280 of discontentment with with the sort of the major restoration um, 3:00:54.320 --> 3:00:58.240 which is the restoration of the emperor um. Because there's 3:00:58.240 --> 3:01:00.000 a lot of people who look at this and they're like, oh, hey, 3:01:00.000 --> 3:01:02.240 we're gonna we finally like defeated the sort of olig 3:01:02.280 --> 3:01:04.800 Art class that like rules all of us. And then 3:01:05.200 --> 3:01:07.120 there's all do olig Art class and they're like wait, 3:01:07.280 --> 3:01:09.320 hold on. And so there's there's like there's a series 3:01:09.360 --> 3:01:12.200 of like ex samurai rebellions. There's this whole sort of 3:01:12.240 --> 3:01:15.720 like like he he like Mashakov literally like gets there 3:01:15.720 --> 3:01:17.959 in the middle of an uprising, and he's just like 3:01:17.959 --> 3:01:19.840 in this rereaes he has nobody what's going on because 3:01:19.920 --> 3:01:21.800 the guy he'd been talking to winds up being in 3:01:21.840 --> 3:01:25.000 the uprising, and you know, so he gets there and 3:01:25.080 --> 3:01:27.800 but what what what he sees also is he sees upheople. 3:01:28.040 --> 3:01:30.880 But he sees that this enormous network of like cooperative movements. 3:01:31.400 --> 3:01:33.480 I mean, he's a bunch of mutual aid groups. He 3:01:33.600 --> 3:01:36.879 sees like villages who are like pooling all of the 3:01:36.959 --> 3:01:39.800 resources they can send kids to like school in the cities. 3:01:39.920 --> 3:01:43.200 He sees like he sees the government failing to provide 3:01:43.200 --> 3:01:44.960 services for people because there's an uprising going on, and 3:01:45.000 --> 3:01:47.240 also the governments and so people are sort of people 3:01:47.360 --> 3:01:50.920 taking care of each other. And this has an enormous 3:01:50.959 --> 3:01:55.200 influence on him. Um and he starts to you know, 3:01:55.280 --> 3:01:57.320 like the way he thinks about anarchism changes, and he sees, 3:01:57.480 --> 3:01:59.920 like he starts to think about sort of like anarchism 3:02:00.040 --> 3:02:04.160 is cooperation, Like mutual cooperation between people who like mutual 3:02:04.200 --> 3:02:09.720 aid enters the sort of lexicon. And Okay, so there's 3:02:09.720 --> 3:02:15.160 a there's a modern historian named show Kota She who 3:02:15.160 --> 3:02:19.440 writes this book called Anarchist madernity, anarchist magernity cooperatism. Wait, 3:02:19.480 --> 3:02:24.720 hold on, yeah, anarchist magernity cooperatism and Japanese Russian intellectual 3:02:24.760 --> 3:02:29.920 relationship modern Japan. And he makes the argument basics, yeah, 3:02:30.360 --> 3:02:33.320 there's there's two there there there, it's a it's a 3:02:33.320 --> 3:02:35.960 better title than I'm reading it, because there's there's two. 3:02:36.000 --> 3:02:39.080 There's like a heading and like a subheading straight because 3:02:39.080 --> 3:02:43.280 I'm flound But she's making the argument that this this 3:02:43.360 --> 3:02:45.119 is like this is actually like something that's very important 3:02:45.160 --> 3:02:48.959 to development of Marco communism because this guy he knows everyone, 3:02:49.040 --> 3:02:52.280 like did the anarchist geographer, like at least Rick LuSE. 3:02:52.879 --> 3:02:56.080 I can't pronounce his name. I think it's lu Yeah, 3:02:56.120 --> 3:02:58.400 I think so, but I can't not with a gun 3:02:58.440 --> 3:03:01.160 to my head, I'm not sure. Yeah. Yeah, Like their 3:03:01.240 --> 3:03:03.920 roommates like they're like they're like they lived together for 3:03:03.959 --> 3:03:05.879 like a while, and like he he he writes the 3:03:05.959 --> 3:03:09.680 Japan entry and like the encyclopedia, he's friends with Kropotkin. 3:03:10.680 --> 3:03:13.880 And after after his his sort of like thoughts starts 3:03:13.879 --> 3:03:15.960 to change about mutual aid, you start to see a 3:03:15.959 --> 3:03:18.440 lot of the same stuff, like you know, like this 3:03:18.520 --> 3:03:20.920 is like he's he's there before Karpokin writes mutual Aid, 3:03:21.240 --> 3:03:22.480 and then you see you see all the sort of 3:03:22.520 --> 3:03:24.720 mutual aid stuff popping up Kropotkin, And you know, I 3:03:25.080 --> 3:03:27.240 don't know how seriously to take the argument that like 3:03:28.320 --> 3:03:30.879 you're sort of seeing like that that a lot of 3:03:30.920 --> 3:03:32.959 this theory is sort of a rebound of reflection of 3:03:32.959 --> 3:03:36.160 what they were seeing in Japanese society. But it's interesting, 3:03:36.160 --> 3:03:39.320 and I think I should mention it because I don't know, 3:03:39.760 --> 3:03:43.600 like there's there's this whole sort of intellectual sphere of 3:03:43.680 --> 3:03:46.360 people who were like associated with anarchistic the ever thing 3:03:46.360 --> 3:03:49.480 that happens in this period is that like, um, so 3:03:49.600 --> 3:03:52.840 there's a bunch of like Mashnikov like has a bunch 3:03:52.840 --> 3:03:55.040 of friends in Russia who all got arrested because they 3:03:55.080 --> 3:03:59.760 were in like terrorist groups, and he's able to get 3:03:59.800 --> 3:04:02.920 like a whole bunch of these people too, Like he's 3:04:02.959 --> 3:04:06.520 able to get them like exiled, and their exile is 3:04:06.560 --> 3:04:08.920 they go to Japan, they teach with him, and so 3:04:08.959 --> 3:04:13.120 suddenly there's like there's like a bunch of people who 3:04:13.120 --> 3:04:15.800 are now like these people, these populists are like writing 3:04:15.959 --> 3:04:18.160 stories about like the stuff they were doing, and like 3:04:18.160 --> 3:04:20.000 all the people who are still fighting in Russia. So 3:04:20.040 --> 3:04:23.080 there's suddenly there's all these people who are like reading 3:04:23.120 --> 3:04:27.800 about the Russian populists uh in Japan and and you know, 3:04:28.160 --> 3:04:30.800 and this is there's there's this kind of like anarchist 3:04:30.840 --> 3:04:34.640 cultural sphere that exists in Japan, like before there's anarchists, 3:04:35.640 --> 3:04:40.160 um like EXAs yeah, yeah for Japan as anarchist, they'll 3:04:40.160 --> 3:04:43.400 be like one like yeah, there's like a couple of 3:04:43.480 --> 3:04:47.920 Russian anarchists and like yeah, but like Mashikov leaves at 3:04:47.920 --> 3:04:50.400 one of the other big thing with this is Tolstoy, 3:04:50.680 --> 3:04:55.480 who is like Tolstoy in like nineties like early nights, 3:04:55.480 --> 3:04:57.879 He's like he's the like he I think he's like 3:04:57.920 --> 3:05:02.920 the most translated author like on Earth in Japan. And 3:05:03.120 --> 3:05:05.920 it's they're not just reading his literary work, they're reading 3:05:06.000 --> 3:05:08.480 his like theology is political work, which is important because 3:05:08.480 --> 3:05:12.200 Tolstoy is like a Christian and reco pacifist right, and 3:05:12.200 --> 3:05:16.160 and this influences this. There's this kind of like there's 3:05:16.200 --> 3:05:18.000 there's a lot of sort of like left wing anti 3:05:18.040 --> 3:05:21.200 imperial strains of Christianity that pop up in Japan. And 3:05:21.280 --> 3:05:23.000 this is one of the reasons for US because everyone's 3:05:23.000 --> 3:05:26.720 reading Tolstoy, and so you get the seeds of this 3:05:26.800 --> 3:05:32.800 anarchist movements that eventually sprout into a man named god. 3:05:33.040 --> 3:05:38.840 This guy's name is actually hard Cotu ku SHOOSI. I'm 3:05:38.840 --> 3:05:40.879 butchering the last part of it. I'm sorry. My Japanese 3:05:40.920 --> 3:05:43.440 does not extend to this many years and eyes in 3:05:43.480 --> 3:05:50.920 a row. But kotakudak he's an interesting god because so 3:05:51.000 --> 3:05:54.240 he hasn't so he has like a whole career before 3:05:54.240 --> 3:05:55.880 it becomes an anarchist. He's he's like he's a very 3:05:55.920 --> 3:05:59.120 prep mint journalist, intellectual, Like he writes a newspaper. It's 3:05:59.200 --> 3:06:02.199 very famous. Everyone reads it, and he's the heir apparent 3:06:02.280 --> 3:06:05.199 to this other like very famous sort of liberal journalist 3:06:05.320 --> 3:06:09.360 who again, because Lev Meshnikov knows literally everyone was like 3:06:09.400 --> 3:06:14.080 a friend of Left Meshnikov. I don't. He knows every 3:06:14.080 --> 3:06:18.600 single person on earth. It's incredible, you know that rules 3:06:18.720 --> 3:06:21.879 you know, unless he ever turned if you ever snitched 3:06:21.879 --> 3:06:27.320 to be terrible apparently never did so yeah, yeah, I 3:06:27.320 --> 3:06:30.600 mean it's still around, so I mean he still could snitch. 3:06:31.080 --> 3:06:33.360 He's still around. The last the chance, Oh, I guess 3:06:33.360 --> 3:06:37.200 everyone he was snitched on his dead so um makes 3:06:37.200 --> 3:06:41.680 it harder the epic Skipilaria area. Yeah. So Kodaku is 3:06:41.760 --> 3:06:44.640 like he's kind of like a standard liberal, but he 3:06:44.680 --> 3:06:47.439 gets involved with with the anti war movements. Um, specifically 3:06:47.440 --> 3:06:50.760 this this is the the anti uh well is it 3:06:50.840 --> 3:06:52.840 does anti a lot of wars because the jet Japan 3:06:52.879 --> 3:06:54.840 is fighting an enormous series of wars and like the 3:06:54.879 --> 3:06:57.560 early nine hundreds, Um, yeah, they kicked Russia's as at 3:06:57.600 --> 3:07:03.480 that point. Yeah, yeah, fight uh Japan, They fight Japans. Sorry, 3:07:03.480 --> 3:07:06.480 they fight China. Yeah, and do you do you know 3:07:06.560 --> 3:07:10.560 who else is fighting China? I don't know. I'm afraid 3:07:10.600 --> 3:07:14.640 to know. The products and service assist the show. Are 3:07:14.640 --> 3:07:21.439 we supported by American nationalism? Apparently? Yes? Question mark, And 3:07:21.480 --> 3:07:27.080 we're back with the first rush with the first actual 3:07:27.160 --> 3:07:32.120 Japanese anarchist. So in the neteen hundred Cutko writes this 3:07:32.160 --> 3:07:35.840 book called Imperialism Monster of the twentieth Century, which is 3:07:35.840 --> 3:07:41.440 like good yeah, yeah, and this certificate for a number 3:07:41.440 --> 3:07:42.959 of reasons, one of which is it like this is 3:07:43.000 --> 3:07:46.760 one of the first major like books about imperialism. Like 3:07:47.440 --> 3:07:50.000 there there are some other Western writers who stuff like 3:07:50.000 --> 3:07:52.040 predates this, but like this is not hter. This is 3:07:52.080 --> 3:07:55.520 before Lenin has written about imperialism. This is before like Hobson, 3:07:55.600 --> 3:07:58.720 this is before Luxembourg, and I'm just gonna read it 3:07:58.800 --> 3:08:01.879 a little bit from it because it rules. So this 3:08:02.040 --> 3:08:04.760 is from the first section. It's called imperialism a wildfire 3:08:04.840 --> 3:08:09.720 in an open field. Imperialism spreads like a wildfire in 3:08:09.720 --> 3:08:13.400 an open field. All nations bow down to worship this 3:08:13.480 --> 3:08:16.240 new god, sing hymns to praise it, and have created 3:08:16.280 --> 3:08:19.480 a cult to pay to pay it adoration. Look at 3:08:19.520 --> 3:08:23.240 the world that surrounds us. In England's both governments and 3:08:23.320 --> 3:08:26.600 citizens have become fervent acolytes of imperialism. In Germany, the 3:08:26.600 --> 3:08:29.520 war loving emperor never loses a chance to extol its virtues. 3:08:29.879 --> 3:08:32.200 As for Russia, the regime has long practiced to policy 3:08:32.240 --> 3:08:35.560 of imperialism. France, Austria, and Italy are all delighted to 3:08:35.640 --> 3:08:37.960 join the fray. Even a young country like the United 3:08:38.000 --> 3:08:40.680 States has recently shown its eagerness to master this new skill. 3:08:41.160 --> 3:08:44.640 And finally, this trend has reached Japan. Ever since our 3:08:44.640 --> 3:08:47.600 great victory in the Cio Japanese War, Japanese of all 3:08:47.680 --> 3:08:50.279 classes burned with fervor to join the race for an empire. 3:08:50.400 --> 3:08:55.320 Like a wild horse freed from its harness. So you know, 3:08:55.400 --> 3:08:57.480 the one thing that he got incorrect, as as I 3:08:57.560 --> 3:08:59.720 understand by spending a lot of time on Twitter, is 3:08:59.760 --> 3:09:02.760 that actually only the United States is imperialist and any 3:09:02.840 --> 3:09:05.720 actions especially by Russia. I was very confused that he 3:09:05.720 --> 3:09:08.440 included Russia as the I can't finish the sentence of 3:09:08.480 --> 3:09:13.880 the straight face, Um what Russia? Also, how could it 3:09:13.879 --> 3:09:17.240 be imperialism if Lenin hadn't yet defined the term for us? 3:09:17.280 --> 3:09:19.480 This is okay, this is the whole thing. Okay. So 3:09:19.480 --> 3:09:22.120 so Kutko gets like a lot of ship from this 3:09:22.160 --> 3:09:24.320 book because for like from later on, having his leftis 3:09:24.320 --> 3:09:26.680 because like he's insufficiently materialist. It's like, yeah, he is 3:09:26.720 --> 3:09:28.480 mostly just talking, like the books, mostly about like how 3:09:28.520 --> 3:09:31.960 patriotism and nationalism like create this stuff. It doesn't look 3:09:31.959 --> 3:09:36.080 at economics much. But like, okay, there's a whole problem here, 3:09:36.080 --> 3:09:38.119 which is that if you try to apply Lenin's definition 3:09:38.160 --> 3:09:41.800 of imperialism to Japan, it doesn't work because like, like 3:09:41.840 --> 3:09:44.160 what would Japan is invading China? They have like I 3:09:44.200 --> 3:09:47.560 think it's like fifty total factories. Yeah, like that the 3:09:48.160 --> 3:09:53.400 everything is completely backwards, Like it's like yeah, and like 3:09:53.480 --> 3:09:56.440 you know, it's like like like Lennon's imperialism is supposed 3:09:56.440 --> 3:09:58.600 to be like the highest stage of capitalism, but then 3:09:58.800 --> 3:10:02.199 you go to Japan, Japan's like barely started the position 3:10:02.280 --> 3:10:05.600 to capitalism, like if Lettin's imperialism is supposed to be 3:10:05.600 --> 3:10:08.040 about like debt exports, right, but Japan is just conquering 3:10:08.040 --> 3:10:11.880 countries while they're just literally like borrowing massively from whether 3:10:11.879 --> 3:10:14.800 states of funder industrialzations. Everything does nothing, None of it works, 3:10:15.520 --> 3:10:18.280 and Kodaku gets like again he has he has like 3:10:18.320 --> 3:10:19.760 a lot of ship for this, but it's like no, 3:10:19.920 --> 3:10:24.280 she's right, like letting is letting is wrong. Lettings analysis, 3:10:24.280 --> 3:10:26.160 if you try to apply in Japan, does not work, 3:10:26.680 --> 3:10:34.560 and Kodas does so yeah, and you know, Kudako, I 3:10:34.560 --> 3:10:38.120 think like he's keyed into things that the Marxists aren't, 3:10:39.120 --> 3:10:42.680 but like specifically about like about the power of nationalism, 3:10:42.760 --> 3:10:45.280 because you know, I mean like obviously if you if 3:10:45.320 --> 3:10:47.080 you go a bit later, it's like, well, all of 3:10:47.080 --> 3:10:49.600 these people who are like, oh, imperialism is the highest 3:10:49.640 --> 3:10:51.600 age of capitalism, and then all of their parties vote 3:10:51.640 --> 3:10:53.160 to go to war with each other in War one, 3:10:54.240 --> 3:10:57.120 like you know, okay, Cutico I think like gets this 3:10:57.200 --> 3:11:00.560 because his relationship with socialists an NTI imperialism are like 3:11:00.680 --> 3:11:03.080 backward from the Marxist right where the Marxists arrived at 3:11:03.120 --> 3:11:07.880 engine imperialism, like from their Marxism. But Kutko like becomes 3:11:07.879 --> 3:11:09.440 a socialist because he sees it as a way to 3:11:09.480 --> 3:11:12.080 stop wars. Like that's like his big thing is he's 3:11:12.120 --> 3:11:13.760 in the antiwar move when he want he's wars to stop. 3:11:14.959 --> 3:11:17.440 And that's the right direction to do. Ship. You should 3:11:17.480 --> 3:11:21.920 do ship because like you don't pick the label because 3:11:21.959 --> 3:11:24.560 what's cool. You pick You figure out what you believe, 3:11:24.640 --> 3:11:26.560 and then you pick the label that fits what you believe, 3:11:26.600 --> 3:11:28.880 and so of the other way around. You know, yeah, 3:11:29.080 --> 3:11:31.000 and and you know it means that he's less sort 3:11:31.040 --> 3:11:37.760 of like he's less dogmatic than like his successors, because 3:11:38.840 --> 3:11:42.000 you know, I mean because because he's he's working off 3:11:42.000 --> 3:11:44.720 of his actual principles versus sort of like this like 3:11:44.760 --> 3:11:47.160 dictation stuff, and I mean he's he's he in the 3:11:47.280 --> 3:11:49.160 you know, three, he publishes the Ess of Socialism, which 3:11:49.160 --> 3:11:52.320 is like this is like the first like socialist like 3:11:52.680 --> 3:11:54.680 book written by Japanese person. It's like one of the 3:11:54.720 --> 3:11:56.119 I think there's maybe like one or two other ones 3:11:56.160 --> 3:11:57.520 that are before this is this is like the first 3:11:57.560 --> 3:12:01.039 big one and he he he's also like he's involved 3:12:01.040 --> 3:12:04.400 in founding the Japanese Socialist Party and then he gets 3:12:04.400 --> 3:12:08.600 like arrested and sent to the US and something happens 3:12:08.600 --> 3:12:10.400 when he's into you. I don't know, there's I've seen 3:12:10.440 --> 3:12:12.880 like sis conflicting accounts, like I've seen accounts to say 3:12:12.920 --> 3:12:15.480 he joins he joins the i w W. I I 3:12:15.560 --> 3:12:17.280 don't know. I've seen other people said he lived, he 3:12:17.320 --> 3:12:19.600 lived in a commune, like he definitely read gropocket, he 3:12:19.680 --> 3:12:22.879 becomes an anarchist, let's deciety, he did all of these things. Yeah, 3:12:23.080 --> 3:12:25.440 lived in a commune and tried to organize the communy 3:12:25.480 --> 3:12:28.720 with the i w W. But you know, I mean 3:12:28.760 --> 3:12:31.640 he this guy is enormously influential in history of Japanese left. 3:12:31.640 --> 3:12:33.520 Like he's the guy with when he comes back and 3:12:33.520 --> 3:12:35.360 act you know six, He's the guy who introduced the 3:12:35.360 --> 3:12:39.040 concept of the general strike Japan. Like he's the first 3:12:39.080 --> 3:12:41.680 guy to write about it. He's very cool. He he 3:12:41.800 --> 3:12:44.600 also like, yeah, you know, he starts pushing this and 3:12:44.600 --> 3:12:47.080 started this. He starts pushing anarchism in direct action as 3:12:47.600 --> 3:12:49.840 like instead of like doing proliamentary stuff, and he translates 3:12:49.920 --> 3:12:53.240 like Corpocket's work in the Japanese. He translates the like 3:12:53.360 --> 3:12:56.000 the comedy's manifesto. He's his labor organizing. He's sort of 3:12:56.040 --> 3:12:59.080 like all over the place, and you know, like labor 3:12:59.360 --> 3:13:01.440 and the ant one movement are like two of the 3:13:01.959 --> 3:13:05.000 big currents are proucing anarchists. But the the other like 3:13:05.120 --> 3:13:10.760 big current that's making anarchists this period is feminism. Because okay, 3:13:10.800 --> 3:13:14.439 so I stop me if this isn't any way surprising, 3:13:14.480 --> 3:13:16.720 but the late eighteen hunters and early neteen hunters are 3:13:16.760 --> 3:13:21.440 not a time to be a woman in Japan. Really. Yeah, 3:13:21.640 --> 3:13:24.360 it's not a good time like anywhere, but it's not 3:13:24.360 --> 3:13:27.480 not even now. It's not the best. Yeah, I mean 3:13:27.520 --> 3:13:30.480 I will be improved. I will say it's it's it's 3:13:30.520 --> 3:13:36.760 better than this. This is like sure, like the major 3:13:36.800 --> 3:13:38.680 regime is sort of like consultating self is as just 3:13:38.760 --> 3:13:43.400 consultating itself. It gets like progressively more like patriarchal, misogynist. 3:13:44.040 --> 3:13:46.520 I'm gonna I'm gonna read from the book Reflections on 3:13:46.560 --> 3:13:48.440 the Way to the Gallows, which is this It's a 3:13:48.440 --> 3:13:51.680 great book. It's it's an awesome collection of yeah, well 3:13:51.680 --> 3:13:58.000 so that that's uh God, I forget one of the 3:13:58.040 --> 3:14:00.879 Japanese anarchists whose about to die, Like that's the title 3:14:00.920 --> 3:14:04.760 of like a piece that she wrote. Um, and they 3:14:05.280 --> 3:14:08.400 this book is like a collection of of Japanese feminist writings, 3:14:08.400 --> 3:14:10.320 mostly from people who get killed by the state, because 3:14:10.360 --> 3:14:12.840 that's what happens when your feminist Japan in this period. Um. 3:14:13.560 --> 3:14:16.800 Oh yeah, it's bad. Okay, So I'm gonna read a 3:14:16.840 --> 3:14:19.880 quote from this. In eight two, the government forbid women 3:14:19.920 --> 3:14:23.240 to make political speeches, and in eighteen ninety made it 3:14:23.240 --> 3:14:27.360 illegal for women to participate in political activities whatsoever. Women 3:14:27.400 --> 3:14:30.720 were forbidden to even listen to political speeches. The Police 3:14:30.720 --> 3:14:35.320 Security Regulations of reinforced these strictures. Article five of the 3:14:35.360 --> 3:14:41.959 regulations prohibited women from forming any political organization whatsoever. Jesus. Yeah, 3:14:41.959 --> 3:14:43.840 it's like that's like a level of restriction that like 3:14:45.480 --> 3:14:49.760 I'm not sure I've ever seen like that explicit level 3:14:49.879 --> 3:14:54.240 of no, you can't do this. Yeah, I feel like 3:14:54.240 --> 3:14:56.720 it's usually implicit in a lot of Western rays. And 3:14:56.720 --> 3:14:59.080 then also like one of the things that really strikes 3:14:59.360 --> 3:15:00.840 sticks out to my about that is that I'm so 3:15:00.959 --> 3:15:03.360 used to thinking about I think people tend to think 3:15:03.400 --> 3:15:06.320 about like this like linear progress model, where like you 3:15:06.320 --> 3:15:09.160 go back really far, like all women and all other 3:15:09.280 --> 3:15:11.520 oppressed categories had it terrible and then it just slowly 3:15:11.560 --> 3:15:14.280 gets better or whatever. But if they're passing these laws 3:15:14.280 --> 3:15:17.120 in nine hundred, there's an implicit it was a little 3:15:17.120 --> 3:15:22.439 better before. Yeah, yeah, it's very specifically gets worse on them. 3:15:22.560 --> 3:15:25.400 Like so one of the things with the eighteen nine 3:15:25.680 --> 3:15:28.680 legal coaches that didn't like it literally just legally enshrines 3:15:28.760 --> 3:15:31.720 like patriarch control the households and this this is this 3:15:31.800 --> 3:15:34.680 is a massive reactionary shift in in serve of jeoparye 3:15:34.720 --> 3:15:38.520 like domestic and political culture like this, like that that 3:15:38.600 --> 3:15:40.720 kind of patriarchal control the household was like a thing 3:15:40.800 --> 3:15:43.200 in some Samurai families, but like it wasn't a thing 3:15:43.440 --> 3:15:46.040 for there's a huge number of popular classes like just 3:15:46.120 --> 3:15:48.920 that didn't exist and they just legislated into existence. And 3:15:48.959 --> 3:15:52.800 like you know, I mean like the things that the 3:15:52.800 --> 3:15:55.400 things that they're applying here, like women need consent of 3:15:55.440 --> 3:15:58.600 their father to marry. Um is for another quote for 3:15:58.640 --> 3:16:01.000 the book what are the provision has held that quote 3:16:01.000 --> 3:16:04.880 cripples and disabled persons and wives cannot undertake any legal action. 3:16:06.240 --> 3:16:08.879 Fucking he huh. Yeah. So this is this is this 3:16:08.920 --> 3:16:11.200 is an incredibly reactionary state. And there's also like there's 3:16:11.240 --> 3:16:14.480 a lot of sex trafficking going on, like like actual 3:16:14.560 --> 3:16:16.440 like there's a lot of people just being grabbed off 3:16:16.440 --> 3:16:20.720 the street. Um, it's a it's a it is a disaster, 3:16:21.000 --> 3:16:24.800 and it is into this patriarchal mess that like several 3:16:24.840 --> 3:16:28.560 generations of Japanese and ARCA feminists step into. Um. The 3:16:28.560 --> 3:16:32.920 most famous of the first round is Kano Sugako, who's 3:16:32.959 --> 3:16:38.600 she she's a socialist author who conversed to She originally 3:16:38.600 --> 3:16:40.440 social listen. She conversed anarchism, which is like a thing 3:16:40.440 --> 3:16:42.360 that happens a lot in this period. And she she's 3:16:42.360 --> 3:16:46.080 working as a journalist and you know she she's she's 3:16:46.120 --> 3:16:48.000 like she's a very sort of controversial figure in the 3:16:48.000 --> 3:16:51.520 government like hates her. So she meets Kotuku and they 3:16:51.520 --> 3:16:53.840 have an affair. And this is like one of the 3:16:53.840 --> 3:16:55.720 other things that keeps happening here is there's a lot 3:16:55.760 --> 3:16:58.160 of like free love stuff going around the Japanese anarchist 3:16:58.240 --> 3:17:01.400 circle at this time. And this this has two conseq 3:17:01.440 --> 3:17:02.880 which is one is a lot of men use it 3:17:02.920 --> 3:17:06.280 to be really shitty and means there was like there 3:17:06.360 --> 3:17:07.959 is a again, this is this is this is this 3:17:08.000 --> 3:17:09.440 is the big like nothing has ever changed in the 3:17:09.440 --> 3:17:13.680 anchist movement. There are so many relationship drama things nothing. 3:17:14.480 --> 3:17:18.120 There are so many times this last circle like like 3:17:18.400 --> 3:17:22.440 they are two different times when the most famous Japanese 3:17:22.480 --> 3:17:24.760 anchist man and the most famous Japanese ancists women wind 3:17:24.840 --> 3:17:27.080 up in a relationship. Uh it ends with it with 3:17:27.120 --> 3:17:29.440 them explaining the movement and then both dying in prison. 3:17:29.600 --> 3:17:35.440 Like this happens twice. Exact sequence happens twice. It's nuts, 3:17:38.080 --> 3:17:43.120 like they're they're just they're just doing polyquel ship Like it's, oh, 3:17:44.720 --> 3:17:49.240 they just need better mediators. Yeah, well, and I mean 3:17:49.480 --> 3:17:51.520 this is this is the thing with like the Japanese 3:17:51.560 --> 3:17:54.720 like the Japanese anchist movement like has a huge feminist wing, 3:17:54.720 --> 3:17:58.320 but like the men still suck, like you just keep 3:17:58.480 --> 3:18:01.960 being bad and so you know what. The over thing 3:18:02.000 --> 3:18:06.480 about this is that Kono Sugako is like enormously more 3:18:06.520 --> 3:18:09.560 militant than like almost every other any other anarchists that's 3:18:09.560 --> 3:18:12.000 alive in Japan at this point. And so in the 3:18:12.040 --> 3:18:14.160 nineteen ten she gets involved with the plan to assassinate 3:18:14.240 --> 3:18:17.600 the emperor Um and this becomes known as the high 3:18:17.600 --> 3:18:20.960 Treason incidents, and the state like gets wind of this. 3:18:21.160 --> 3:18:26.400 They arrest her, they arrest uh Go Taku, and they 3:18:26.440 --> 3:18:32.360 arrest like twenty two other two yeah, twenty two other anarchists. Um. 3:18:32.720 --> 3:18:37.000 Now like five of these people are like even tangentially 3:18:37.040 --> 3:18:43.320 involved in this plot, um, but they this is okay, 3:18:43.320 --> 3:18:46.959 So I can't say that that the Japanese government only 3:18:46.959 --> 3:18:48.920 does this to anarchist because they do this a fascist 3:18:49.040 --> 3:18:53.039 like once. But like they do this thing where okay, 3:18:53.080 --> 3:18:54.440 So they have a bunch of people that they want 3:18:54.440 --> 3:18:57.360 to execute, right, So they find one person who's like 3:18:57.400 --> 3:19:00.120 an ideological figure and they're like, okay, you're now in 3:19:00.200 --> 3:19:02.960 the middle of this and you're the link between like 3:19:03.080 --> 3:19:04.560 this group and this other group want to kill. This 3:19:04.600 --> 3:19:05.920 other group want to kill this other group want to 3:19:06.000 --> 3:19:14.560 kill And so they convict uh like jo Um and 3:19:14.800 --> 3:19:16.959 uh Ku like they they all get convicted and they 3:19:17.000 --> 3:19:19.800 all get executed. Yeah, And so this case is also 3:19:19.800 --> 3:19:22.280 interesting because there's a bunch of people who the state 3:19:22.360 --> 3:19:25.640 like wanted to kill but they couldn't because they'd already arrested. 3:19:25.640 --> 3:19:28.119 They'd already they like, this is like two years after 3:19:28.200 --> 3:19:30.560 like a mass arrest of like half of the Japanese 3:19:30.640 --> 3:19:32.840 nargist movement. And so they have all these people who 3:19:32.879 --> 3:19:35.520 are in prison, and it's like even by like the 3:19:35.520 --> 3:19:38.800 standards of the Japanese state, it's like, Okay, how are 3:19:38.800 --> 3:19:40.680 we going to convict all of these people who have 3:19:40.720 --> 3:19:43.320 been in prison for two years of trying to of 3:19:43.360 --> 3:19:45.080 like being a part of this plot to kill the 3:19:45.080 --> 3:19:48.080 emperor that was like organized outside of the jail. And 3:19:48.200 --> 3:19:51.280 so this this is the thing that saves like a 3:19:51.360 --> 3:19:54.200 huge portion of the Japanese anarchist movements, that saves it 3:19:54.240 --> 3:19:58.120 from literally so like this the Hydragenon incident kills like 3:19:58.320 --> 3:20:00.480 most of the famous anarchist of Japan, but it leaves 3:20:00.560 --> 3:20:03.360 like like a couple alive. And that's why they're alive 3:20:03.440 --> 3:20:06.200 because they were all in prison. God, wait, how are 3:20:06.200 --> 3:20:10.360 they going to kill the emperor? The plant didn't get 3:20:10.480 --> 3:20:13.000 very far. I think they were trying to use a bomb, 3:20:13.480 --> 3:20:16.560 but the police got wind of it very very early, 3:20:16.920 --> 3:20:19.120 not classes so that they never really got much like 3:20:19.240 --> 3:20:24.440 past the planning stage. Um, this is a shame. Yeah yeah, 3:20:24.560 --> 3:20:27.560 And do you know what else never gets very far 3:20:27.720 --> 3:20:31.600 plass past the planning stage when they're trying to assassinate 3:20:31.600 --> 3:20:35.920 the emperor of Japan. Is it the ads because they 3:20:36.600 --> 3:20:40.000 don't know how to do direct action because they're too 3:20:40.000 --> 3:20:44.800 in mestion in capitalism? That is, that is actually exactly 3:20:44.840 --> 3:20:47.000 what we were talking about. Margaret, thank you so much, 3:20:48.080 --> 3:20:50.920 and we're back. I was genuinely trying to see if 3:20:50.920 --> 3:20:53.000 I could like think of a of a company that 3:20:53.080 --> 3:20:54.720 had like tried to kill the Japanese emperor, and I 3:20:54.720 --> 3:20:57.440 couldn't think of one. And I was like, hmmm, this 3:20:57.520 --> 3:21:00.840 says something about society. This does. This is a real, 3:21:01.040 --> 3:21:03.800 real solid critique we have here. I really hope that 3:21:04.720 --> 3:21:08.160 ten years from now this all seems very dated. You're like, 3:21:08.600 --> 3:21:12.600 of course someone's major company has tried to never mind, 3:21:14.240 --> 3:21:21.080 one can dream so kinda. Sugaku is dead, Kotaku is 3:21:21.160 --> 3:21:23.720 also dead, and this this means that it's time for 3:21:23.760 --> 3:21:26.680 sort of like another generation of of anarchists to try 3:21:26.720 --> 3:21:29.600 to fill in the gaps. So they're executed. Yeah, yeah, 3:21:29.600 --> 3:21:32.000 they're dead, Like they just die and they kill, they kill, 3:21:32.200 --> 3:21:35.440 they kill like twenty two of the anarchists or something. 3:21:36.280 --> 3:21:38.240 And I mean this is a this is a huge purge. Mean, 3:21:38.280 --> 3:21:41.240 they don't wind up executing just like there's just like 3:21:41.760 --> 3:21:46.400 a like a sympathetic like Buddhist priest. It's executed. Um, 3:21:47.240 --> 3:21:52.400 I when is this? This is nice and eleven sorry, yeah, 3:21:52.560 --> 3:21:55.680 this is nice un eleven um and actually there's nothing 3:21:55.800 --> 3:21:58.840 to think about this kind of Sku becomes the first 3:21:58.879 --> 3:22:01.360 woman ever executed by the happening state. She will not 3:22:01.440 --> 3:22:07.920 be the last, like oh boy, um feminist, yeah, I 3:22:07.959 --> 3:22:17.360 mean equal rights, equal fights. There's another like very influential 3:22:17.400 --> 3:22:22.360 market feminist who's emergence slightly after, like just like in 3:22:22.560 --> 3:22:27.440 like nineteen four nine is each on no way. She's 3:22:27.440 --> 3:22:32.080 an egoist anarchist who eventually last, finally, finally we bring 3:22:32.120 --> 3:22:36.720 it up. That's all I have to say about. That's 3:22:36.720 --> 3:22:38.600 like almost all I had to She she she takes 3:22:38.600 --> 3:22:42.200 over the editorial position of this, uh, this magazine called 3:22:42.200 --> 3:22:44.400 Blue Stocking Magazine, which is like Japan's and I think 3:22:44.400 --> 3:22:46.320 it's it's like this is like the most important feminist 3:22:46.320 --> 3:22:49.320 magazine in Japan, and she takes over the editorial staff 3:22:49.320 --> 3:22:52.400 about it. And her work is really interesting in a 3:22:52.400 --> 3:22:56.520 lot of ways because it just it just straight up 3:22:57.000 --> 3:22:59.879 is contemporary feminism in a way that like a lot 3:22:59.879 --> 3:23:02.160 of the stuff in this period isn't like if if 3:23:02.400 --> 3:23:04.680 you go and read the arguments she's having, she's arguing 3:23:04.720 --> 3:23:06.360 that sex works should be legal and that everyone should 3:23:06.360 --> 3:23:08.280 be should be able to get abortions because women should 3:23:08.280 --> 3:23:17.160 have autonomy over their bodies. Yeah, it's like, yeah, this 3:23:16.440 --> 3:23:18.480 is this is not going to end well for her, 3:23:20.120 --> 3:23:22.920 but you know what, it doesn't end well for any 3:23:23.000 --> 3:23:25.640 of us in a long enough timeline. You know, like 3:23:25.800 --> 3:23:27.680 all that matters is the time of what we do. 3:23:27.840 --> 3:23:33.360 At this time, we are gularly bad. Okay, fine, yeah, 3:23:33.680 --> 3:23:35.320 so yeah, I think so she's able to do this 3:23:35.320 --> 3:23:37.760 for like a year, and the Japanese state looks at this, 3:23:37.800 --> 3:23:43.080 it is like absolutely not and shust the magazine down. Um, 3:23:43.320 --> 3:23:45.000 so she she gets forced to move on to other things. 3:23:45.040 --> 3:23:46.879 And the other thing she moved on she moves on 3:23:46.920 --> 3:23:49.560 to is being extremely heavily involved in the free love 3:23:49.640 --> 3:23:53.480 movement of course. Yeah yeah, and and but also, and 3:23:53.720 --> 3:23:56.000 this is the thing that's that's interesting about the sort 3:23:56.000 --> 3:23:59.320 of periodge of Japanese anarchism is that like the egoists 3:23:59.360 --> 3:24:04.000 are all also Nicholas yeah yeah, yeah, yeah yeah yeah. 3:24:04.040 --> 3:24:06.920 And she's so she she's like heavily involved in labor organizing, 3:24:06.959 --> 3:24:09.440 and this is how she comes into contact with her partner, 3:24:09.720 --> 3:24:14.879 who she's like cheating on her imprisoned husband, who will 3:24:14.959 --> 3:24:19.400 later form the Japanese Communist Party. That's a lot of 3:24:19.440 --> 3:24:22.280 stuff happening. There's there, there's so much, there's so much beef. 3:24:24.920 --> 3:24:29.039 It's incredible. There's there's this like we haven't even gotten 3:24:29.080 --> 3:24:31.480 to the wild part of this relationship yet, okay, which 3:24:31.480 --> 3:24:33.320 is so so okay. So she she comes in contact 3:24:33.360 --> 3:24:35.680 with her partner or person who would become her partner, 3:24:36.480 --> 3:24:40.440 Osaki Sakai, who is like dating another very famous Japanese 3:24:40.520 --> 3:24:43.080 arca feminist, who she stabs him in the neck over 3:24:43.240 --> 3:24:45.680 the fact that she's in multiple relationships at once. So 3:24:45.760 --> 3:24:50.520 this isn't really a free from her point, Yeah, this 3:24:50.600 --> 3:24:52.200 is this is the thing that keeps happening with free 3:24:52.240 --> 3:24:54.240 love of this period. It's like you gotta like, you 3:24:54.240 --> 3:24:57.680 gotta lay down, you gotta make sure everyone's okay with everything. 3:24:57.920 --> 3:25:01.960 They should have seemed to in theory, but in practice 3:25:02.000 --> 3:25:06.400 they sure, yeah, sure do fall apart? Huh yeah? And 3:25:06.600 --> 3:25:09.280 this two divides the Japanese anity. But does she win, 3:25:09.360 --> 3:25:11.440 did she succeed, did she kill him or did he survive? 3:25:11.520 --> 3:25:16.160 That Okay, yeah, I'm just I have there's a special 3:25:16.160 --> 3:25:22.640 place in my heart for split slit throats of patriarchal man. Anyway, 3:25:22.959 --> 3:25:28.279 So most like Kai is also very heavily evolving labor organizing, 3:25:28.320 --> 3:25:32.039 and he he's one of the guys who like turns 3:25:32.040 --> 3:25:35.240 anarchists labor into like a serious political force, which is 3:25:35.440 --> 3:25:39.760 maybe it's good that they survived. Yeah, like it's probably 3:25:39.879 --> 3:25:45.199 net good. But all of the guys in this story 3:25:45.400 --> 3:25:51.360 like suck except do I haven't except here? What about 3:25:51.360 --> 3:25:55.280 the Korean guy? Who? Um oh yeah, we get to him. Yeah, 3:25:55.400 --> 3:25:58.880 he's he's kind of like I think he's actually fine. Yeah, 3:25:59.160 --> 3:26:01.680 I think maybe the end this story gets weird. Yeah 3:26:01.959 --> 3:26:04.400 we'll we'll we'll get to them in a second. Um. 3:26:04.440 --> 3:26:07.280 But yeah, So Saya Sakai has like he has he 3:26:07.320 --> 3:26:09.720 has this like fusion of like egoism and syndicalism, where 3:26:09.720 --> 3:26:12.320 like the individual ego will be liberated through collective action, 3:26:12.400 --> 3:26:13.800 but the goal of the workers movement is not to 3:26:13.879 --> 3:26:17.040 just like end poverty, it's to like liberate the individual 3:26:17.120 --> 3:26:20.599 and give themselves developments. And he's also this like incredibly 3:26:20.800 --> 3:26:24.000 fierce like like one of his big thing is that 3:26:24.040 --> 3:26:26.360 like he does not want intellectuals anywhere you're the workers 3:26:26.400 --> 3:26:32.760 movement does absolutely not. Yeah, and this is because like 3:26:32.760 --> 3:26:34.560 again he's been around for ages, Like he becomes an 3:26:34.560 --> 3:26:38.240 anarchist around the time when Um Kotaku doesn't like that's 3:26:38.240 --> 3:26:40.200 no six, So he's been like arounded. He's one of 3:26:40.240 --> 3:26:41.760 the guys who survives the high Trees in the incident 3:26:41.800 --> 3:26:45.400 because he was already in prison. Okay, all right, and 3:26:45.440 --> 3:26:47.800 so he like he's one of the people who like 3:26:47.879 --> 3:26:50.120 keeps the sort of flame of anarchism alive after like 3:26:50.200 --> 3:26:53.200 their fashion nineteen eleven. But unfortunately for him Um and 3:26:53.280 --> 3:26:54.880 for eacho, no way, they get caught up in the 3:26:55.200 --> 3:27:00.200 Canto earthquake, of which is this like this earthquake between 3:27:00.720 --> 3:27:06.200 Yokohama and Tokyo alone kills two hundred thousand people. It 3:27:06.320 --> 3:27:07.720 is like it is like it is one of the 3:27:07.760 --> 3:27:13.040 worst like natural disasters. It's it's really bad and in 3:27:13.080 --> 3:27:16.439 immediately gets worse. The state wouldn't use a natural disaster 3:27:16.640 --> 3:27:20.879 to try and further its aims through extra legal means. Yeah, 3:27:20.920 --> 3:27:25.359 So okay, I'm gonna start with one of the ways 3:27:25.400 --> 3:27:29.039 that the genocide of Korean people in Japan at this 3:27:29.120 --> 3:27:33.000 time starts is so there's a bunch of Korean workers 3:27:33.000 --> 3:27:35.080 in a long turre union that's been organized by this 3:27:35.080 --> 3:27:37.680 builit in like left his union guy named Yamaguchi Saka 3:27:37.800 --> 3:27:40.960 and okay, so like they're in this long shore union. 3:27:41.040 --> 3:27:43.119 There's this disaster. They start doing mul a. They start 3:27:43.120 --> 3:27:44.600 going out. They started taking care of so if I 3:27:44.840 --> 3:27:47.760 started giving people food. But you know, they're they're like 3:27:47.800 --> 3:27:50.520 waving red flags and stuff, and the Japanese police lose 3:27:50.600 --> 3:27:53.000 their minds and are like, oh my god, there the 3:27:53.080 --> 3:27:56.920 jet the Koreans are doing socialism and they just start 3:27:56.959 --> 3:28:02.000 killing them and they there's this whole thing about like 3:28:02.000 --> 3:28:04.959 there's these rumors started like Koreans are raping Japanese women 3:28:04.959 --> 3:28:06.840 and it turns into this thing about like looting, and 3:28:06.840 --> 3:28:10.000 then like Korean malcontents are supposed to be like overrunning 3:28:10.000 --> 3:28:14.920 police stations and the lynch mobs. The lists are mostly 3:28:14.920 --> 3:28:17.039 targeting Koreans, but they're also tart, like if you're Chinese, 3:28:17.120 --> 3:28:20.480 if you're from Baku Islands, like they're killing you. Two um, 3:28:20.520 --> 3:28:23.200 they kill two thousand Koreans in Tokyo and another two 3:28:23.280 --> 3:28:28.120 thousand in Yokohama, and like two thousand Koreans in Yokohama, 3:28:28.160 --> 3:28:31.600 that is half the Korean population of the city. And 3:28:31.680 --> 3:28:35.720 these people die like horribly, like because it's not like 3:28:35.720 --> 3:28:38.520 so that the polices are actively hunting them down. Like 3:28:38.680 --> 3:28:43.080 the entirety of Japanese society like remembers that they really 3:28:43.120 --> 3:28:45.840 like killing people and they really like fighting, and like 3:28:46.160 --> 3:28:49.879 you have people like taking their like ceremonial swords from 3:28:49.920 --> 3:28:52.160 like their ancestors who are in the major revolution, Like 3:28:52.160 --> 3:28:54.600 they're taking their katanas going industry and murdering people with them, 3:28:54.640 --> 3:28:57.320 like people just like have fish hooks and they're just 3:28:57.440 --> 3:28:59.640 murdering people in the street. And this goes on for 3:28:59.760 --> 3:29:01.640 like this is on for days, and one of the 3:29:01.640 --> 3:29:05.400 things that happens in this is um, well, okay, so 3:29:05.480 --> 3:29:08.600 the one of the other things happens in this period 3:29:08.640 --> 3:29:11.320 that the Javits government just starts like arresting random left 3:29:11.320 --> 3:29:15.920 iss and executing them. Yeah, and that's what was supposed 3:29:15.959 --> 3:29:19.160 to happen to know to Echo no A and Osaka Sakai. 3:29:19.720 --> 3:29:22.600 But they get arrested by squad and military police led 3:29:22.640 --> 3:29:30.440 by mashachikom Akasu who just she just murders them. Um. 3:29:30.480 --> 3:29:33.760 There's like conflicting stories of how this happened. I there's 3:29:33.800 --> 3:29:36.680 there's one version of it where like he kills them 3:29:36.959 --> 3:29:39.120 and like their six year old nephew and throws their 3:29:39.120 --> 3:29:41.440 bodies out a well. There's another version of it where 3:29:41.440 --> 3:29:43.560 they get strangled and that he strangles have been prison 3:29:44.520 --> 3:29:46.560 and this is like a huge outrage, but it's not 3:29:46.680 --> 3:29:48.160 huge at range because he murdered them as a huge 3:29:48.160 --> 3:29:50.800 outrage because he's supposed to wait for the trial. H 3:29:51.440 --> 3:29:57.080 I mean, and yeah, And this is one of the 3:29:57.080 --> 3:29:58.440 things that like this is this is part of how 3:29:58.560 --> 3:30:01.400 like fascism comes to Japan, is that like he becomes 3:30:01.400 --> 3:30:02.840 a hero for the fascist right, Like he goes to 3:30:02.920 --> 3:30:05.240 prison for ten years supposedly, but he only serves three 3:30:05.760 --> 3:30:07.879 and then he gets out. He becomes a hero, and 3:30:07.879 --> 3:30:11.400 then he becomes basically the head of like the sort 3:30:11.400 --> 3:30:14.119 of fascist secret police in the like Maenturian puppet state. 3:30:15.200 --> 3:30:17.440 But on the upside, he when would Japan loses to war, 3:30:17.520 --> 3:30:22.960 he kills himself. So when I with the story I 3:30:22.959 --> 3:30:25.400 had heard was that the Throne in the Well story, 3:30:25.520 --> 3:30:27.400 and I remember it. It's stuck with me so much 3:30:27.400 --> 3:30:32.080 because the first time I met anarchists from Japan, they 3:30:32.160 --> 3:30:35.160 gave me a zine and it was like Japanese anarchist martyrs, 3:30:35.400 --> 3:30:37.199 you know, like the martyrs of our movement or whatever. 3:30:37.640 --> 3:30:39.200 And I was like looking through it and we're all 3:30:39.280 --> 3:30:43.760 of these children, and it just like really emotionally affected 3:30:43.800 --> 3:30:47.840 me that I was like, oh, y'all's martyrs include all 3:30:47.840 --> 3:30:51.680 of these like literally not like like literal like like 3:30:51.720 --> 3:30:54.880 six year olds and stuff, because you know they came 3:30:54.920 --> 3:30:57.840 and killed not just the grown up anarchists, but the 3:30:57.879 --> 3:31:01.959 baby anarchists or whatever as well. Um, I know that 3:31:02.000 --> 3:31:03.960 this has happened lots of places, but it just it 3:31:04.040 --> 3:31:06.720 really stuck with me. So whether it's true or not, 3:31:06.800 --> 3:31:08.760 the story I heard was this story about the well, 3:31:08.840 --> 3:31:12.120 and then it's stuck with me. Yeah, I mean, like 3:31:12.200 --> 3:31:21.120 the level of repression in Japan, like it's it's unlike 3:31:21.120 --> 3:31:23.280 anything I've ever seen that's not in a country that's 3:31:23.280 --> 3:31:26.560 literally in the middle of the civil war, like they 3:31:26.840 --> 3:31:32.440 just they just like murder people like constantly. Yeah. And 3:31:32.560 --> 3:31:33.720 then this is one of the other things, like one 3:31:33.720 --> 3:31:35.600 of the things that starts the right wing like turn 3:31:35.640 --> 3:31:38.280 in Japanese society is when is when the earth work 3:31:38.320 --> 3:31:41.280 happens and the government is like like they're like the 3:31:41.280 --> 3:31:43.320 police are being like, it's the Koreans. You need to 3:31:43.320 --> 3:31:46.520 go fight the Koreans, and so they do and like 3:31:46.560 --> 3:31:49.520 I mean yeah, like wait, they like blame the earthquake 3:31:49.560 --> 3:31:51.959 on the Koreans. Yeah, well, so everything is there's this fire, 3:31:52.080 --> 3:31:56.440 the fire kills like sixty people, like it it consumes 3:31:56.840 --> 3:32:00.760 they're like they're they're the urban core of uh, what's 3:32:00.760 --> 3:32:05.240 the name of that city, h the urban core of 3:32:05.320 --> 3:32:07.960 Yokohama just goes up in flames, like six people burned 3:32:07.959 --> 3:32:11.400 to death, and that's the government needs some explanation for. Yeah, 3:32:11.480 --> 3:32:13.400 it's horrible, but like the governments are explation for it. 3:32:13.400 --> 3:32:16.040 They're like, oh, we'll blame the Koreans. And then suddenly 3:32:16.360 --> 3:32:20.360 all of these people are just like like the whole 3:32:20.400 --> 3:32:23.320 of Japanese society just goes into this total mobilization like 3:32:23.480 --> 3:32:26.680 kill mode thing and they just murder enormous numbers of 3:32:26.720 --> 3:32:29.279 people and this and like that this has this enormous 3:32:29.280 --> 3:32:31.360 sort of like like cultural affection, shifting people back to 3:32:31.400 --> 3:32:33.920 the right and shifting people back towards militarism because now 3:32:33.959 --> 3:32:36.640 they've like you know, like they've they've tasted blood, they've 3:32:36.680 --> 3:32:39.640 like they've gotten this sort of sense of it yeah, 3:32:39.680 --> 3:32:43.400 it is brutal um and before we go, we're gonna 3:32:43.440 --> 3:32:47.400 kill off one more anarchist the team. Can we kill 3:32:47.440 --> 3:32:51.200 off the other team instead? Unfortunately, no, none of them 3:32:51.240 --> 3:32:52.920 die in this story. It's the worst. All of the 3:32:52.920 --> 3:32:58.920 assassination attempts fail. It's so sad. Yeah, I'm sorry sight 3:33:00.000 --> 3:33:02.640 me what I happened. I forgot how depressing this because 3:33:03.080 --> 3:33:04.880 I was I was remembering part two of this, which 3:33:04.920 --> 3:33:08.600 is just like absolutely hilarious, kind of pointless like ideological 3:33:08.640 --> 3:33:11.000 battle over like things that are kind of dumb, and 3:33:11.000 --> 3:33:12.440 then I forgot about the first part of the story, 3:33:12.440 --> 3:33:16.480 which is everyone gets executed. So the last person who 3:33:16.480 --> 3:33:19.199 we're talking about he gets executed is is Fumiko Konako. 3:33:19.879 --> 3:33:24.360 Who is Fumokko? So she she she's a nihilist anarchist, 3:33:24.400 --> 3:33:26.440 but she's different from like everyone else we've talked about 3:33:26.560 --> 3:33:29.600 today so far because when she's a kid, she gets 3:33:29.600 --> 3:33:33.680 sent to live in Japanese occupied Korea, and so she 3:33:33.720 --> 3:33:36.360 goes there and she gets like horribly abused by her family, 3:33:36.640 --> 3:33:39.040 which leads to become like leaves of her becoming a nihilist, 3:33:39.080 --> 3:33:41.800 but it means to like, okay, so like like a 3:33:41.800 --> 3:33:44.800 lot of the anarchists like in Japan talk a big 3:33:44.840 --> 3:33:47.440 game again about anti like imperialism, right, and like they 3:33:47.480 --> 3:33:49.520 will do things like yeah, like they will go fight 3:33:49.520 --> 3:33:51.080 police to try to stop a war for happening, but 3:33:51.080 --> 3:33:55.760 they don't really talk to people in Korea very much. 3:33:57.080 --> 3:33:59.760 And Fumio Kanico was like the exception to that because 3:33:59.760 --> 3:34:03.160 you know, she lived there for a long time. Um 3:34:03.240 --> 3:34:06.480 and she she winds up marrying pack Yol, who is 3:34:06.560 --> 3:34:08.959 a very influential Korean anarchist, and they they do a 3:34:08.959 --> 3:34:11.960 bunch of organizing the specifically like that their their thing is. 3:34:11.959 --> 3:34:13.840 They're trying to like get there, trying to enter the 3:34:14.320 --> 3:34:19.560 Japanese occupation, and you know they're they're doing great work. 3:34:19.600 --> 3:34:22.920 And then unfortunately, after the earthquake, Uh, she and pak 3:34:23.000 --> 3:34:25.280 Yo are and uh, stop me if you've heard this 3:34:25.280 --> 3:34:27.680 one before, they are sentenced to death for a supposed 3:34:27.720 --> 3:34:30.640 plot to kill the emperor. Wait wait now, yeah, we 3:34:30.640 --> 3:34:33.560 already did this part. You're just repeating, Yeah, yeah, they 3:34:33.600 --> 3:34:36.560 do it again. This is the second time. Like they 3:34:36.600 --> 3:34:39.640 just keep doing this and this one it's unclear if 3:34:39.640 --> 3:34:42.440 there was actually a plot, and if there was a plot, 3:34:42.440 --> 3:34:44.800 it's unclear to what extent form can code was like 3:34:44.840 --> 3:34:47.080 involved with it. But while she's gonna get arrogated, she's like, 3:34:47.120 --> 3:34:49.640 oh yeah, no, Like I hate the Emperor. I was 3:34:49.680 --> 3:34:51.560 absolutely involved in a plot to kill him, Like I 3:34:51.600 --> 3:34:54.560 was making a bomb to kill him. Uh. Also, I'm 3:34:54.560 --> 3:34:57.120 an anarchist. And here's like an incredibly detailed sketch of 3:34:57.200 --> 3:34:59.520 like all of the oppression in Japanese society. But I'm 3:34:59.520 --> 3:35:01.840 just gonna tell you, like the person she's like the 3:35:01.840 --> 3:35:05.840 court examiner, who's like and and you know, there's there's 3:35:05.959 --> 3:35:08.800 anything that happens where she and Pacuole are like are 3:35:08.800 --> 3:35:11.160 handed pardons as like the sort of like mercy of 3:35:11.200 --> 3:35:15.360 the Emperor thing, and paciol like takes it but go 3:35:15.440 --> 3:35:17.160 kind of co like they hander the paper and she 3:35:17.240 --> 3:35:20.080 chears it to shreds in front of them. And it's 3:35:20.120 --> 3:35:23.280 so embarrassing that like the record of what happened is 3:35:23.320 --> 3:35:27.120 like sealed until after World War Two because it was 3:35:27.120 --> 3:35:30.480 a big like, um, it was like a big media scandal, 3:35:30.680 --> 3:35:32.640 all of the stuff with them being arrested, right, And 3:35:32.760 --> 3:35:35.840 I'm basically I don't actually know more, but I watched 3:35:35.879 --> 3:35:38.160 a movie once. There's a great movie about this called 3:35:38.200 --> 3:35:42.080 Anarchists from Colony. This part of it. Yeah yeah, and 3:35:42.080 --> 3:35:44.640 she yeah, and like yeah, it's just the whole thing, 3:35:44.640 --> 3:35:46.440 and like that. The government also kind of doesn't want 3:35:46.480 --> 3:35:49.920 to assassinate them because it looks really bad that. I mean, 3:35:50.240 --> 3:35:53.160 they've they've they've picked, they've they've arrested to random people 3:35:53.280 --> 3:35:55.880 who like have done nothing, and they're just gonna kill them. 3:35:56.040 --> 3:35:58.640 But for mechanicals like no, like, I believe in the 3:35:58.680 --> 3:36:01.720 things that I believe in, and I will literally like 3:36:01.879 --> 3:36:04.640 tear up this parted and die for it. And so 3:36:04.840 --> 3:36:07.640 she tears out the pardon and so she goes to prison, 3:36:07.680 --> 3:36:10.279 and she lives long enough to write like the greatest 3:36:10.400 --> 3:36:13.160 entry in the in the genre of an archi feminist 3:36:13.520 --> 3:36:17.240 a Japanese narchi feminist prison memoirs, which is an entire genre. 3:36:17.400 --> 3:36:21.520 There's like multiple books because it keeps happening and these 3:36:21.520 --> 3:36:23.959 people get arrested and set the prison. It's called the 3:36:23.959 --> 3:36:27.360 Prison Memoirs of a Japanese Woman. It's great, everyone should 3:36:27.360 --> 3:36:30.400 go read it. It's it's also extremely depressing because her 3:36:30.440 --> 3:36:36.400 life sucks, but yeah, it's it's it's good. Um. Yeah. 3:36:36.440 --> 3:36:39.760 And so now having killed off the leading intellectuals of 3:36:39.879 --> 3:36:43.959 anarchism again for the second time in a generation. You 3:36:43.959 --> 3:36:46.120 would think that this would this would kill the movement, 3:36:46.160 --> 3:36:50.320 like I think, I think like movements like if if 3:36:50.320 --> 3:36:54.160 you kill they're leading intellectuals, like all of them, like 3:36:54.560 --> 3:37:00.480 twice in like twelve years, like the movement collapses. Yeah. That, 3:37:01.640 --> 3:37:04.080 but at the very beginning there was the guy who 3:37:04.120 --> 3:37:07.400 said keep the intellectuals away from the labor organizing. Maybe 3:37:07.440 --> 3:37:10.240 he is right, well, but this, this is this. Yeah. 3:37:10.280 --> 3:37:11.760 The incredible thing about this is no, it doesn't it 3:37:11.760 --> 3:37:15.160 doesn't kill them. They keep going like and they have 3:37:15.240 --> 3:37:19.080 they have one last glorious, glorious and absolutely baffling hurrah. 3:37:19.640 --> 3:37:24.800 Okay of like in fighting, extremely weird and funny in fighting. 3:37:25.640 --> 3:37:27.880 So yeah, that that's what we're gonna be talking about 3:37:28.080 --> 3:37:33.879 next episode. All right, Yeah, is it time for the 3:37:33.879 --> 3:37:38.160 plug of the plug? Yes? Oh oh, Margaret you who 3:37:38.200 --> 3:37:42.039 have a new podcast about that? It's on this very network, 3:37:42.080 --> 3:37:44.480 Cool Zone Media, on this very network. I have my 3:37:44.560 --> 3:37:47.760 own podcast. Is it called cool People Who Did Cool 3:37:47.800 --> 3:37:51.360 Stuff and Doesn't Believe? So? Does it come out on 3:37:51.600 --> 3:37:54.360 May second? And is it produced by the webby Award 3:37:54.440 --> 3:38:00.720 winning Sophie lie German? Uh? Perhaps? And do episodes drop 3:38:00.800 --> 3:38:05.080 every Monday and Wednesday? I think they do. Uh, that 3:38:05.240 --> 3:38:09.600 is super, super exciting. And you can find that wherever 3:38:09.879 --> 3:38:14.960 you get your podcasts, remember quickly anywhere you get them, 3:38:14.959 --> 3:38:17.440 Like if there's a peddler on the corner who sells 3:38:17.440 --> 3:38:22.840 you podcasts, your pain, get your podcast, get your podcast. 3:38:23.080 --> 3:38:29.600 It's half off today to two for one exactly. And 3:38:29.640 --> 3:38:33.920 where and where can people follow you on the interwebs? Uh? Well, 3:38:34.000 --> 3:38:36.440 for now, you can follow me on Twitter before the 3:38:36.480 --> 3:38:41.200 mass exodus h at Magpie killed Roy. And you can 3:38:41.200 --> 3:38:43.959 follow me on Instagram, which we've all known for a 3:38:44.040 --> 3:38:48.280 very long time is owned by evil people, and that 3:38:48.440 --> 3:38:51.560 is Magpie. No, Margaret killed Roy because I wasn't clever 3:38:51.680 --> 3:38:54.080 enough to get my own name in both places. I 3:38:54.160 --> 3:38:57.520 don't know why I'm explaining this to you, but you 3:38:57.560 --> 3:39:00.200 can follow me on social media and that's where I am, 3:39:00.200 --> 3:39:02.440 and I post pictures of my dog that keeps barking 3:39:02.480 --> 3:39:04.640 in the background while I'm trying to record this episode. 3:39:05.720 --> 3:39:08.360 But but if you, if you follow Margaret, you'll see 3:39:08.360 --> 3:39:10.520 her dog and you'll understand that it is worth it 3:39:10.600 --> 3:39:16.959 because he is handsome, very nice and agrees. Well, I'm 3:39:17.080 --> 3:39:20.600 very excited to start listening to cp w DC as 3:39:20.840 --> 3:39:50.240 just the best. Uh is that the episode episode? I 3:39:50.240 --> 3:39:53.600 guess I'm starting this one. Hi, welcome to take it 3:39:53.640 --> 3:39:57.760 happened here. It's a show. If you're listening to this episode, 3:39:57.800 --> 3:40:00.520 you probably listen to the last one. You know what 3:40:00.560 --> 3:40:03.000 it's about. Yeah, please do don't start. I mean, I 3:40:03.040 --> 3:40:05.440 guess you could start with this one because this one 3:40:05.520 --> 3:40:07.440 is sort of wildly different than the last one. But 3:40:08.800 --> 3:40:13.360 this one we're rewriting it so they all survive. Yeah, 3:40:13.440 --> 3:40:16.800 I mean, I don't. No one gets executed this episode. Yes, 3:40:17.200 --> 3:40:20.119 that is that is a win. And the cosmists come, 3:40:20.200 --> 3:40:26.080 the Russian Cosmist come, and they resurrect at least Canikofumico um, 3:40:26.240 --> 3:40:29.480 the rest, give or take whatever. Maybe the children could 3:40:29.520 --> 3:40:33.720 be resurrected. That's how I would prioritize it in that order. 3:40:34.879 --> 3:40:39.520 That makes sense. Yeah. Um. And that voice you're hearing 3:40:39.680 --> 3:40:44.519 is Margaret Killjoy, host of Cool, host of cpw DCS 3:40:44.959 --> 3:40:47.640 Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff Cool Medio podcast that 3:40:47.840 --> 3:40:51.199 is launching its first episode on May second, and episodes 3:40:51.240 --> 3:40:54.520 are every Monday and Wednesday. I did it? Okay? Who? 3:40:55.600 --> 3:40:58.440 That's true? All the things are true, except the cosmos 3:40:58.520 --> 3:41:02.480 part that the cosmists I don't know. Maybe maybe maybe 3:41:02.480 --> 3:41:06.760 they'll still pull it off as as if yet, so 3:41:06.840 --> 3:41:10.760 we're gonna go back a little bit. Um. We ended 3:41:10.840 --> 3:41:16.440 last episode with everyone sort of dead. Um. But the 3:41:16.680 --> 3:41:19.360 reason that also didn't wipe out the the anarchist movement 3:41:19.400 --> 3:41:20.960 was that there's that does another sort of wing of it, 3:41:21.000 --> 3:41:25.560 and the other wing of it is in in nineteen eighteen, 3:41:25.840 --> 3:41:28.240 labor movement in Japan re emerges, and it re emerges 3:41:28.320 --> 3:41:31.039 because there's the war, like Japan fights to over one, 3:41:31.760 --> 3:41:35.040 and there's just like mass inflation and deprivation, and so 3:41:35.080 --> 3:41:38.280 even though striking is like unbelievably illegal, people do it 3:41:38.280 --> 3:41:41.680 anyways because the underdative is just starving to death. And 3:41:41.760 --> 3:41:46.240 so there's this reformist trade union that eventually becomes Japanese 3:41:46.240 --> 3:41:49.360 Confederation of Labor that swells and numbers to about thirty 3:41:49.360 --> 3:41:51.800 thousand people, and actually much like thirty thousand people is 3:41:51.879 --> 3:41:55.560 like it doesn't sound like that big for a union. 3:41:56.040 --> 3:41:57.960 I think this is the biggest any union is going 3:41:58.000 --> 3:42:00.560 to get in this period. I think this might get 3:42:00.600 --> 3:42:03.840 slightly bigger than that, but like, yeah, most of the 3:42:03.920 --> 3:42:08.640 unions don't crack twenty k because the size of the 3:42:08.760 --> 3:42:11.680 Japanese industrial working class isn't that big, and also the 3:42:11.720 --> 3:42:15.000 amount of oppression is unbelievable. But you know, having having 3:42:15.040 --> 3:42:18.920 thirty people in your union means that your union is 3:42:18.959 --> 3:42:23.280 now the site of Japanese intra left conflict, which is wonderful. 3:42:26.240 --> 3:42:29.879 People there is actually like people up, Yeah, it's great. 3:42:30.640 --> 3:42:33.240 There's like, you know, there's a period where everyone kind 3:42:33.240 --> 3:42:35.560 of gets along, like like all of there was like 3:42:35.560 --> 3:42:37.640 everyone of the Japanese Left knows each other, like all 3:42:37.640 --> 3:42:39.840 they're all dating each other, like if this is true, 3:42:39.879 --> 3:42:41.400 Like you know, we've been talking about all the interest 3:42:41.480 --> 3:42:42.879 dating each other, but the Antics and the Communists are 3:42:42.879 --> 3:42:45.240 all dating each other, like the Reformists are also dating 3:42:45.280 --> 3:42:48.920 each other. Like they're all sort of like everyone knows 3:42:48.920 --> 3:42:51.360 each other, and for like a bit they're sort of 3:42:51.360 --> 3:42:56.520 able to get along all right. But with with with 3:42:56.640 --> 3:43:01.080 the the Japanese Confederation of Labor. This last for like 3:43:01.240 --> 3:43:05.080 one year, and the anarchists and the Bolsheviks has split 3:43:05.120 --> 3:43:08.360 over the question of the USSR. After the Anarchists published 3:43:08.400 --> 3:43:11.320 like Emma Goldman writing about how it's bad actually, and 3:43:11.360 --> 3:43:14.760 suddenly these two factions are like, yeah, these actutions are 3:43:14.760 --> 3:43:16.680 like fighting tooth and nail for control of like the 3:43:16.879 --> 3:43:19.760 entire left, because like these these groups are like the anarchists, 3:43:19.800 --> 3:43:23.360 the communists are in every social movement, like they're they're 3:43:23.360 --> 3:43:25.280 in there in labor, they're in the feminist movements, they're 3:43:25.320 --> 3:43:26.960 in this movement. They're like we haven't really talked about, 3:43:26.959 --> 3:43:29.080 but it is going on the background of all of this, 3:43:29.120 --> 3:43:32.920 which is the burak Kuman liberation movement on the burk 3:43:32.959 --> 3:43:35.640 Kuman or this like this like hereditary class. I'm pronouncing 3:43:35.640 --> 3:43:39.279 that extremely badly and I apologize um, but the hereditary 3:43:39.280 --> 3:43:41.200 class and like the old fuel system, which is like 3:43:41.240 --> 3:43:44.880 technically abolished in the Lady two hundreds, but like discrimination 3:43:44.879 --> 3:43:48.400 against them continues. It's it's very similar to like like 3:43:48.440 --> 3:43:52.320 the untouchable like touchables in India. And so they have 3:43:52.360 --> 3:43:54.560 this sort of movements and the anarchists back it, and 3:43:54.600 --> 3:43:59.160 the communists like waffle on it because the Bolsheviks it 3:43:59.200 --> 3:44:01.680 tastes like a while before they're like no, no, no, 3:44:02.720 --> 3:44:05.440 We're we're fully backing this now. And so yeah, I 3:44:05.440 --> 3:44:08.080 mean that gets wrapped up in this this giant battle 3:44:08.160 --> 3:44:10.680 for the control of the left, and the battle for 3:44:10.680 --> 3:44:12.520 the control of the left leads to like one of 3:44:12.640 --> 3:44:16.439 history's most common alliances, which is Bolsheviks allying with reformists 3:44:16.440 --> 3:44:19.640 who like also favor like centralized control to fight the 3:44:19.680 --> 3:44:24.560 anarchists who don't want centralized control. Yeah, there there are 3:44:24.600 --> 3:44:30.520 many new things, yea, in the labor movement. This this 3:44:30.560 --> 3:44:33.600 plays out in this battle over like where power is 3:44:33.640 --> 3:44:36.080 supposed to be in a union confederation. So you know, 3:44:36.160 --> 3:44:37.680 the question basically is it supposed to be in the 3:44:37.720 --> 3:44:40.000 federation bureaucracy like the people are like the sort of 3:44:40.080 --> 3:44:42.200 high level of the bureacracy itself, or is it supposed 3:44:42.200 --> 3:44:43.880 to be in the unions who are like the part 3:44:43.879 --> 3:44:46.640 of this federation. And and this has real consequences, you know, 3:44:46.760 --> 3:44:49.279 like it a lot of sort of centralized union federations, 3:44:49.280 --> 3:44:51.160 like the central union bureacracy that the people who decide 3:44:51.200 --> 3:44:54.560 if you can strike or not mhm. And you know, 3:44:55.480 --> 3:44:58.200 this is extremely useful to both reformings bureaucrats who want 3:44:58.200 --> 3:45:00.240 to make sure nobody goes on strike because have their 3:45:00.240 --> 3:45:02.800 deal with the capitalists and they don't want to refolution happen. 3:45:02.800 --> 3:45:05.400 And it's also very useful for the Bolsheviks who want 3:45:05.440 --> 3:45:07.000 to make sure they can purge anyone who they don't 3:45:07.040 --> 3:45:09.119 like and also want to make sure. The Union movement 3:45:09.160 --> 3:45:12.000 is just like an extension of their politics. And so 3:45:12.080 --> 3:45:14.800 there's this huge battle and it ends with basically like 3:45:15.240 --> 3:45:19.400 both the Bolsheviks and the reformists pull out of the Union. Whoa, 3:45:19.440 --> 3:45:23.880 so the anarchists win. Oh yes, sort of, well they victory. 3:45:23.959 --> 3:45:26.879 There's nothing. Yeah, well it's not. There's nothing. So like 3:45:26.920 --> 3:45:30.400 twenty thou members go with the reformists, like twelve thousand 3:45:30.480 --> 3:45:32.760 go with the Bolsheviks, about eight thousand go with the anarchists. 3:45:34.879 --> 3:45:38.600 So it's not the best, but they rebuild and and 3:45:38.840 --> 3:45:44.080 into this phrase steps arguably Japan's greatest anarchist theorists of 3:45:44.360 --> 3:45:48.800 this period, Hottest Shoes. Oh and this guy is a character, 3:45:49.000 --> 3:45:51.600 like he's he's he's barely known in Japan. I mean 3:45:52.080 --> 3:45:54.680 there was a sort of like renaissance in how to 3:45:54.720 --> 3:45:57.480 shoeso scholarship when this one guy named John Krupp wrote 3:45:57.520 --> 3:46:00.360 this book called Hottes SHOESO How does Shoes? In Pure 3:46:00.400 --> 3:46:03.000 Anarchism and into Wards Japan, which is a mouthful of 3:46:03.040 --> 3:46:04.680 a title, But I'm just gonna keep plugging this because 3:46:04.720 --> 3:46:06.160 like this is the book that made me an anarchist. 3:46:06.840 --> 3:46:08.280 Like this is like I checked this book out from 3:46:08.280 --> 3:46:09.640 my library and I read it and I was like, 3:46:09.680 --> 3:46:16.240 oh my god, I'm an anarchist now. So yeah, he 3:46:16.480 --> 3:46:18.840 has he has like A because she has a wild story. 3:46:18.959 --> 3:46:22.039 Um he's born in He's born in Japan in December 3:46:22.920 --> 3:46:25.480 six and he sort of like bounces around like different 3:46:25.520 --> 3:46:28.640 manual labor jobs in Tokyo, and like at one point 3:46:29.160 --> 3:46:31.800 he wants to be like A. He tries to be 3:46:31.800 --> 3:46:33.920 like I don't know if it's long trou he wants 3:46:33.920 --> 3:46:36.120 to be like a sailor. So he gets on a 3:46:36.160 --> 3:46:37.600 boat and he's going to be a sailor and then 3:46:37.920 --> 3:46:41.440 he after like one sale ride to Taiwan, he immediately 3:46:41.480 --> 3:46:43.039 decides he doesn't want to be a sailor anymore. So 3:46:43.080 --> 3:46:44.520 he just gets off the boat and leaves and doesn't 3:46:44.560 --> 3:46:46.240 come back. I feel like that's what I would do 3:46:46.240 --> 3:46:50.520 if I decided, Oh yeah, like that job, especially like 3:46:50.560 --> 3:46:53.760 the nineteen like twenties, that jobs, he's awful. Yeah, You're like, 3:46:53.959 --> 3:46:56.119 I want adventure, and then you're like, oh, adventure means 3:46:56.120 --> 3:47:00.960 bad things happen. It's like maybe I I I guess 3:47:01.000 --> 3:47:03.120 I understand why all these people are anarchists, because like 3:47:03.680 --> 3:47:09.720 that is a terrible job. But yeah, so she's so 3:47:09.800 --> 3:47:12.520 winds up sort of just like wandering around Taiwan. And 3:47:12.760 --> 3:47:14.600 one of the things that happens when he's wanting aroun Taiwan, 3:47:14.640 --> 3:47:16.680 by the way, is a Japanese colony at this point, 3:47:16.840 --> 3:47:20.120 um okay. And while he's wandering around Taiwan, he becomes 3:47:20.120 --> 3:47:22.600 a Christian and he like goes to school, it's like 3:47:22.640 --> 3:47:25.000 a theologian, but he drops out, but then he somehow 3:47:25.200 --> 3:47:28.920 still becomes a pastor because I don't know, this guy's 3:47:28.959 --> 3:47:32.880 career is wild. No, she's always not like a noble pastor. 3:47:33.080 --> 3:47:36.040 He rapidly starts pissing off like everyone around him because 3:47:36.200 --> 3:47:39.080 he's like every All of his sermons are just him 3:47:39.120 --> 3:47:41.800 and taggetizing rich people and preaching this like very very 3:47:41.879 --> 3:47:46.119 left we rided in the Gospel. Read the Bible. Yeah, yeah, 3:47:46.760 --> 3:47:50.640 it's incredible that this is a great quote from Howdaeschizo 3:47:50.720 --> 3:47:53.000 and pierre anarchists into war Japan about this time as 3:47:53.000 --> 3:47:54.920 a pastor from like someone who was there, it was 3:47:55.800 --> 3:47:58.320 Pastor Howes. His sermons were superbs, so much so that 3:47:58.400 --> 3:48:00.480 I thought it was a shame that more people we're 3:48:00.520 --> 3:48:02.760 not there to hear them. It was like the Bible 3:48:02.879 --> 3:48:05.160 talking in the spirit of pure socialism. And one of 3:48:05.280 --> 3:48:07.720 my friends admired pastor hates so much to the assid 3:48:07.800 --> 3:48:14.480 to celebrate his marriage. Yeah, and you know this like 3:48:15.360 --> 3:48:18.120 this does not go around. Yeah yeah, he say, Well, 3:48:18.120 --> 3:48:20.400 it's funny because he starts like as a Christian, right, 3:48:20.440 --> 3:48:23.040 but like he just like progressively keeps getting more and 3:48:23.120 --> 3:48:26.320 more left wing and keeps realizing that like okay, so 3:48:26.400 --> 3:48:28.800 there's the Kingdom of God in heaven, right, but like 3:48:28.920 --> 3:48:32.800 what if we did that here? And like as he's 3:48:32.840 --> 3:48:34.800 getting like as he's pissing off more of the church, 3:48:35.560 --> 3:48:38.640 um and as like they're they're they're in fighting, gets bigger, 3:48:38.680 --> 3:48:40.680 he's becoming just more and more of an anarchist. And 3:48:40.760 --> 3:48:42.840 by the end he just like gets up, he gets 3:48:42.840 --> 3:48:44.960 booted out by his church and he's just like okay, 3:48:44.959 --> 3:48:47.480 I'm an anarchist propagandist now, and soo he just like 3:48:47.600 --> 3:48:51.440 leaves and he's like, well, I'm anarchist now. Um and 3:48:51.640 --> 3:48:54.680 Shizo becomes what's known as a pure anarchist. And this 3:48:54.840 --> 3:48:57.640 is something that is like entirely unique to Japan that 3:48:57.760 --> 3:49:00.360 like there there's nothing there's this doesn't exist anywhere else, um, 3:49:01.160 --> 3:49:03.960 and this is different than like like basically every other anarchist, 3:49:04.000 --> 3:49:06.480 theorist and movement in Japan util this point has been 3:49:06.560 --> 3:49:09.240 like something you can find parallels with other anarchist movements 3:49:09.240 --> 3:49:11.560 around the globe, Like there are nihilists and lots of 3:49:11.600 --> 3:49:14.720 countries as egoists everywhere, like their cynicalists literally in every 3:49:14.760 --> 3:49:18.360 country has ever existed, and they mostly sort of believe 3:49:18.400 --> 3:49:20.240 the same things. Um, you know, you get some like 3:49:21.320 --> 3:49:25.280 like oh us Kai is like combination of egoism and 3:49:25.320 --> 3:49:27.600 syndicalism is like it's cool, but like just I like 3:49:27.720 --> 3:49:30.080 that idea. Yeah, yeah, it's a good idea, but it's 3:49:30.200 --> 3:49:32.800 also not like it's like he's not's not like he's 3:49:32.840 --> 3:49:34.840 not the first person to ever do this right, And 3:49:35.000 --> 3:49:37.320 like the Japanese synicalist movement is built in the mold 3:49:37.600 --> 3:49:40.360 of like the French syndicalists in the CGT, which is 3:49:40.400 --> 3:49:43.200 this big union. Uh actually they're still around today there 3:49:44.320 --> 3:49:46.440 so in like the very early eighteen hundreds they were there, 3:49:46.520 --> 3:49:48.400 they were sort of Anarcoisy Nicolas Union and like like 3:49:48.640 --> 3:49:50.920 you know six they have this famous charter about like anarchists, 3:49:50.960 --> 3:49:53.280 but then they go reformist and they like they vote 3:49:53.280 --> 3:49:55.600 for World War were one and now they're famous for 3:49:56.400 --> 3:49:58.920 there's been like twelve things that probably could have been 3:49:58.920 --> 3:50:01.280 a revolution in France if the CGT had ever a 3:50:01.320 --> 3:50:03.160 single time went to the barricades. And they never do. 3:50:04.680 --> 3:50:07.120 Wh's never ever, that's like their whole thing, like like 3:50:07.520 --> 3:50:10.640 they set out by sixty eight, like that's the rest 3:50:10.680 --> 3:50:14.520 of Yeah, this is the union. Yeah yeah, and they 3:50:14.560 --> 3:50:17.000 set out by sixty eight. It's like it's incredible, but 3:50:17.120 --> 3:50:19.440 you know it's the But you know, in like ninety 3:50:19.480 --> 3:50:21.760 know six, right, the Japanese are looking at like cynical, 3:50:21.880 --> 3:50:23.520 looking at this like oh my god, this just this 3:50:23.880 --> 3:50:26.320 union has like millions of people in it, like it's enormous. 3:50:26.320 --> 3:50:30.800 It's a cynicals union. Yeah yeah, And like you know 3:50:31.000 --> 3:50:34.640 they they the Jeman's anarchists do is sort of their 3:50:34.680 --> 3:50:37.400 standard cynicalist things like that they're building up democratic unions. 3:50:37.480 --> 3:50:39.560 They're like working cords in general strike the season means 3:50:39.560 --> 3:50:42.000 their production. They're like fighting for a society or production 3:50:42.040 --> 3:50:45.280 is run by workers themselves. Blah blah blah blah, I 3:50:45.320 --> 3:50:47.480 shouldn't blah blah blah blah. That's actually it's it's cool, 3:50:47.560 --> 3:50:52.040 it's fine, but pure anarchism is not that I'm dying 3:50:52.120 --> 3:50:55.400 to know what pure anarchism is. This new anarchism just dropped. 3:50:55.400 --> 3:50:59.120 I'm excited. It's it's kind of a it's it's a 3:50:59.160 --> 3:51:03.200 version of whocomunism. But like what if you like really 3:51:03.400 --> 3:51:07.120 really rigorously applied in arco communism and and this is 3:51:07.360 --> 3:51:09.520 this is the thing. It doesn't exist anywhere else because everywhere, 3:51:09.640 --> 3:51:12.480 like in the West and in Latin America, like syndicalism 3:51:12.520 --> 3:51:15.600 and anarchist and anarcho communism just like fuse to the 3:51:15.640 --> 3:51:17.280 point where like they're not really they're like but there's 3:51:17.280 --> 3:51:19.280 not really they're not really separate tendency, like nobody's written 3:51:19.280 --> 3:51:21.960 in an arco communist theory, and like a hundred years 3:51:23.280 --> 3:51:26.600 like like they started, you know, they've basically ceased to 3:51:26.640 --> 3:51:31.320 be separate tendencies. But in Japan, the cyndicalists of the 3:51:31.360 --> 3:51:34.480 and comps like fighting it out to the death. And 3:51:34.680 --> 3:51:38.280 if this this produces pure anarchism and it rules can 3:51:38.440 --> 3:51:41.040 talk about what it is because it's both wonderful and 3:51:41.120 --> 3:51:45.240 incredibly silly at the same time. So okay, so to 3:51:45.560 --> 3:51:48.520 understand what they're arguing about, because this is this is 3:51:48.640 --> 3:51:51.880 this this causes like a huge fracture in the annex movements. Um, 3:51:52.480 --> 3:51:54.320 I think we need to sort of like go into 3:51:54.400 --> 3:51:57.960 like the vulgar bark disconception of class structure that's kind 3:51:58.040 --> 3:52:01.000 of shared by the syndicalists. Okay, So okay, okay, so 3:52:01.120 --> 3:52:04.360 you're you're okay. The important thing about this is that, 3:52:04.480 --> 3:52:06.600 like this doesn't work at Japan, like the the vulgar 3:52:06.680 --> 3:52:09.840 theory of like Marcus class structure, right, is that like, okay, 3:52:09.840 --> 3:52:12.640 so you're supposed to have the great industrial proletariat, Like 3:52:12.720 --> 3:52:14.440 it's that's supposed to become a majority of the population. 3:52:14.480 --> 3:52:16.440 It's supposed to be unified and organized by like the 3:52:16.480 --> 3:52:19.200 discipline of the factory system, and the entire world is 3:52:19.240 --> 3:52:22.080 supposed to reduce to two classes like the boors, the borgewisi, 3:52:22.120 --> 3:52:24.960 and the proletariat, like one class of people who have 3:52:25.040 --> 3:52:26.960 nothing to sell but their labor. One class of people 3:52:27.040 --> 3:52:32.240 who exist purely too like extract wealth from people because 3:52:32.280 --> 3:52:34.200 like you, who you entirely supportless on my owning things. 3:52:35.200 --> 3:52:37.040 And you know, eventually these are supposed to, like if 3:52:37.040 --> 3:52:39.160 you if you read your communist manifesto, Eventually these two 3:52:39.160 --> 3:52:41.120 classes are supposed to like meet themselves in like a 3:52:41.160 --> 3:52:47.640 final conflict or the proletariat defeats it's called yeah, yeah, yeah, 3:52:48.320 --> 3:52:50.480 and you know, the propitiy defeats them, and then they 3:52:50.640 --> 3:52:53.320 abolished the conditions of their own existence as a class 3:52:53.600 --> 3:52:56.000 and you get stateless class list butey in this society, 3:52:56.200 --> 3:52:58.120 it's like a free association of workers. And this is 3:52:58.160 --> 3:53:04.760 what communism is. And famously this never happened. Yeah, and 3:53:05.040 --> 3:53:09.720 about what about the immortal science. Yeah, you know the well, 3:53:09.720 --> 3:53:12.200 the w the wortal science. Yeah, this, this is the 3:53:12.400 --> 3:53:14.040 This is the problem with the immortal science is that one, 3:53:14.120 --> 3:53:17.000 instead of unifying the industrial politariat, capitalism like divides it 3:53:17.680 --> 3:53:20.200 and just sort of like like literally spatially like kicks 3:53:20.240 --> 3:53:22.000 them into suburbs. And you can get this sort of 3:53:22.120 --> 3:53:25.200 like the system where instead of like unifying everyone into 3:53:25.280 --> 3:53:28.360 one class, everyone is now just like completely alienated, like 3:53:28.400 --> 3:53:30.640 boomer living in a suburb, even if it's still work 3:53:30.680 --> 3:53:34.080 in a factory. And the other problem is that there's 3:53:34.120 --> 3:53:38.680 never just two classes. And this is the problem that like, yeah, 3:53:39.080 --> 3:53:42.000 all the other ones are our enemies. Yeah, this worried too, 3:53:42.360 --> 3:53:43.760 you know, but this is a real problem, right because 3:53:43.760 --> 3:53:45.720 like the Marxist running to this in Russia where it's 3:53:45.720 --> 3:53:48.640 like okay, so we we did our thing, we did 3:53:48.640 --> 3:53:51.040 our urban poultry revolution. But like there's all these peasants 3:53:51.720 --> 3:53:53.640 and they don't like us because we keep taking their 3:53:53.680 --> 3:53:57.320 granted gunpoint and but but you know that you have, 3:53:57.520 --> 3:54:01.880 you have this one problem and popular, yeah, it goes great, 3:54:02.000 --> 3:54:04.720 right if not nothing bad ever happens, they don't famously 3:54:04.760 --> 3:54:06.960 have to kill enormous members of these people. But then 3:54:07.080 --> 3:54:10.120 like you know, there's something weird happens, which is in China, 3:54:10.600 --> 3:54:14.360 u Stalin managed to get like the entire or like 3:54:14.400 --> 3:54:17.360 the entire urban Chinese working class like builitic working class killed, 3:54:17.720 --> 3:54:20.080 and so Mao has to like make a revolution with peasants, 3:54:21.360 --> 3:54:23.000 and so you know, peasants become the sort of like 3:54:24.320 --> 3:54:26.040 you know, this this sort of like this, this is 3:54:26.080 --> 3:54:28.480 what the actual refolution stutuct of communism wants up being, 3:54:28.600 --> 3:54:31.160 like from like China, Columbia. It's these peasants. But like 3:54:31.840 --> 3:54:34.000 you know, okay, so your your theory of the industrial 3:54:34.000 --> 3:54:36.080 politariats already down the toilet. And this is what Shuzo 3:54:36.240 --> 3:54:39.080 is reacting to. Like he looks at Japanese society and 3:54:39.240 --> 3:54:43.280 there's like five people who you wage labor. Mostly there's 3:54:43.360 --> 3:54:47.120 this enormous like fourteen million people who are tenant farmers 3:54:47.760 --> 3:54:49.400 who are like trying to support their families and these 3:54:49.440 --> 3:54:52.400 like tiny plots of rented land. But you know, and 3:54:52.600 --> 3:54:54.680 like in center Marxis theories, like well, okay, these people 3:54:54.680 --> 3:54:58.360 will inevitably be absorbed into capitalism, right, but they will 3:54:58.360 --> 3:55:01.200 be driven by competition or whatever to the market. But 3:55:01.240 --> 3:55:03.040 like they're not, it's not happening. They're just they're sitting 3:55:03.080 --> 3:55:05.360 there and they're still just really poor in paying their landlords. 3:55:05.760 --> 3:55:09.480 And yeah, yeah, well you just gotta wait for all 3:55:09.520 --> 3:55:14.920 of Japan to be like annihilated. Yeah yeah, yeah, it's 3:55:14.960 --> 3:55:16.520 it's it's it's going great. But and it's also like 3:55:16.520 --> 3:55:18.560 there's all these other like classes to you, Like there's 3:55:18.640 --> 3:55:21.600 there's these classes of like there's just like petty traders 3:55:21.680 --> 3:55:23.800 for example, or like the like low level like really 3:55:23.840 --> 3:55:27.000 low level government officials like like you know, you're like 3:55:27.240 --> 3:55:31.360 like a clerk for example, who just don't fit into 3:55:31.440 --> 3:55:33.600 this sort of class scheme at all, Like if it 3:55:33.720 --> 3:55:36.400 marks some things about like like small like I don't know, 3:55:36.520 --> 3:55:39.200 people who like cut wood and then go into a 3:55:39.280 --> 3:55:41.160 town and sell it, like they're like, well, there's these 3:55:41.160 --> 3:55:43.960 people are petit bourgeois like their reactionaries blah blah, And 3:55:44.000 --> 3:55:47.160 there's this whole history of like anarchists organizing people like 3:55:47.240 --> 3:55:48.960 this who marks just sort of like steer At, Like 3:55:49.200 --> 3:55:53.480 Bolivia has this where like anarchists organized these like these 3:55:53.520 --> 3:55:56.600 indigenous like like they're not really these indigenous artisans whose 3:55:56.600 --> 3:55:58.400 things like they go to market and they saw their craft. 3:55:58.480 --> 3:56:00.240 And the Marxists were just like a, why do we 3:56:00.280 --> 3:56:04.560 care about the people? Like why yeah, workers, And it 3:56:04.600 --> 3:56:06.400 always seems like the better I don't know, whenever I 3:56:06.520 --> 3:56:09.080 was presented with the basic analysis of like, okay, we've 3:56:09.120 --> 3:56:11.920 got the proletariat who have terrible lives and factories, and 3:56:12.000 --> 3:56:14.480 then you have the lump and proletariat who refuse that 3:56:14.560 --> 3:56:16.360 kind of work and are like beggars and thieves and 3:56:17.680 --> 3:56:21.080 people doing work outside of the traditional system or whatever. 3:56:21.480 --> 3:56:23.360 And then you have the petty bourgeoisie who are like 3:56:23.560 --> 3:56:26.240 you know, owned stores or artisans or whatever. And then 3:56:26.280 --> 3:56:28.680 you have the bourgeoisie over it. And it is always 3:56:28.720 --> 3:56:30.640 funny to me because I look at I'm like, well, clearly, 3:56:31.040 --> 3:56:32.800 the only ones that would be worth being would be 3:56:32.880 --> 3:56:36.080 lumping proletariat or pett like they're the only ones to 3:56:36.120 --> 3:56:39.320 get to have any fun Like, yeah, you know, and 3:56:39.640 --> 3:56:42.400 I think like like that this is a problem that 3:56:42.600 --> 3:56:46.080 that chooso sees. And I'm gonna read part of um 3:56:47.080 --> 3:56:49.400 Krupt's book about his solution to this because I think 3:56:49.400 --> 3:56:52.880 it's really interesting. Um. Given the failure of the available 3:56:52.960 --> 3:56:55.640 methods of class analysis to capture the subtleties of Japan's 3:56:55.680 --> 3:56:59.080 social structure, how To developed the notion of the propertyless 3:56:59.200 --> 3:57:02.200 masses as an alternative concept of the proletariat. That the 3:57:02.280 --> 3:57:06.360 propertyless masses was a wide ranching term which encompassed tenant farmers, 3:57:06.440 --> 3:57:10.240 small traders, petty officials, artisans, and even wage laborers when 3:57:10.280 --> 3:57:13.520 they are prepared to forsake their preoccupation with narrowly defending 3:57:13.600 --> 3:57:17.240 advantages that accompanied their urban lifestyle and we're ready to 3:57:17.360 --> 3:57:20.840 throw in their lot with the other oppressed strata. Yeah, 3:57:20.880 --> 3:57:23.320 that makes sense. That's just you know, it's the like 3:57:24.360 --> 3:57:26.160 or just the haves and have nots. It's like, okay, 3:57:26.280 --> 3:57:28.920 well it's it's kind of but but there's there's a 3:57:28.960 --> 3:57:33.440 crucial difference here, which is that like, okay, so the 3:57:34.040 --> 3:57:36.240 other like the really big thing about the pure anarchist 3:57:36.280 --> 3:57:40.040 that they don't believe in class struggle, Okay, and The 3:57:40.160 --> 3:57:42.640 reason why they don't believe in class struggle is that 3:57:42.720 --> 3:57:46.040 they think that, Okay, so they look at the history 3:57:46.040 --> 3:57:47.920 of the union movement, right, and it's like, okay, so 3:57:48.360 --> 3:57:50.960 has the union movement ended capitalism? It's like no, So 3:57:51.080 --> 3:57:52.920 like okay, what what does it actually do? And the 3:57:52.920 --> 3:57:55.360 answer is it gets people slightly more money under capitalism, 3:57:55.640 --> 3:57:58.400 which is nice too, Yeah, which which is nice. But 3:57:58.440 --> 3:58:00.760 it's also like choose a like adopted tub that there's 3:58:00.760 --> 3:58:02.880 no other Japanese anarchists who who has this beta for 3:58:03.240 --> 3:58:06.040 It's like he he compares it to like people fighting 3:58:06.080 --> 3:58:09.640 inside of like a bandit king, where it's like, okay, 3:58:09.760 --> 3:58:11.280 so if you have you have like fight, like the 3:58:11.480 --> 3:58:13.800 bosses of the bandit gang are obviously exploiting like the 3:58:14.120 --> 3:58:17.600 lower level people in the bandit gang. But you know, 3:58:17.760 --> 3:58:20.280 I even even if even if the lower level people 3:58:20.280 --> 3:58:22.160 in this bandit gang like take over, they're not actually 3:58:22.200 --> 3:58:24.240 gonna stop being a bandit gang, right, It's just that 3:58:24.360 --> 3:58:27.120 the the distribution of where the bandit gang wealth is 3:58:27.160 --> 3:58:30.200 going changes. And this is a big thing for for 3:58:30.440 --> 3:58:33.520 for the puranicist because the pior anarchists are you know, 3:58:33.560 --> 3:58:35.560 they're they're looking at the industrial working classes like this 3:58:35.680 --> 3:58:38.280 is tiny and they're they're all exploiting in the countryside 3:58:39.080 --> 3:58:42.400 m hm. And so because of that, like they they 3:58:42.480 --> 3:58:44.840 look at this, they look at the the union movement, 3:58:44.880 --> 3:58:47.240 and they look at it at like class struggle, like 3:58:47.280 --> 3:58:49.920 classical TM like class struggle, and they're like, well, this 3:58:49.960 --> 3:58:52.440 doesn't cause a revolution. All this does is just like 3:58:53.600 --> 3:58:57.080 sort of reorients like who's in power inside of Uh 3:58:57.640 --> 3:59:00.520 that's what the Bolsheviks did, right, Yeah, But but it's 3:59:00.520 --> 3:59:01.840 it's not just what the bulls so they paily this 3:59:01.880 --> 3:59:04.280 is the Bolsheviks. But like it's also like there's analysis 3:59:04.320 --> 3:59:05.880 of what a union is is that you're like class 3:59:05.880 --> 3:59:09.480 struggles just defending your position under capitalism, but you're also 3:59:09.560 --> 3:59:12.160 fighting very specifically narrowly for your class. Right, So if 3:59:12.200 --> 3:59:14.960 you're like a factory worker, right, you're fighting for you 3:59:15.240 --> 3:59:17.240 and the other factory workers. You're not fighting for like 3:59:17.520 --> 3:59:19.120 I don't know, like a tenant farmer. You're not you know, 3:59:19.200 --> 3:59:21.360 even fighting from like for like the guy down the 3:59:21.400 --> 3:59:24.560 tree to Bate's bread. It's like you're you know, the 3:59:24.800 --> 3:59:26.720 these these things that are like that are but they 3:59:26.760 --> 3:59:29.360 look like instruments of class struggles, like your workers council, 3:59:29.480 --> 3:59:33.120 your unions, your Soviets, Like they don't actually get rid 3:59:33.120 --> 3:59:36.240 of class. It's just now another class has power, and 3:59:36.320 --> 3:59:38.560 it doesn't matter if it's sort of like this is 3:59:38.600 --> 3:59:40.120 what they're arguing, is like, it doesn't matter if it's 3:59:40.160 --> 3:59:42.840 like democratic, It doesn't matter if it's like you know, 3:59:43.040 --> 3:59:45.440 like there there there's no difference in how the actual 3:59:45.720 --> 3:59:48.200 eventually the class and amics will play out. It doesn't 3:59:48.200 --> 3:59:50.920 matter if it's like you know, like Lenin making like 3:59:51.000 --> 3:59:53.400 Stalin making himself dictator, or you have a bunch of 3:59:53.440 --> 3:59:56.920 democratic like Soviets, because they're both so instruments class power. 3:59:56.920 --> 3:59:59.680 They're both sort of just going to reproduce this, this 3:59:59.760 --> 4:00:04.560 whole system. And yeah, and so they have this thing 4:00:04.600 --> 4:00:08.880 that they counterposed, which is like class struggle is just 4:00:08.960 --> 4:00:10.920 about what stuff is happening inside the system. But that's 4:00:10.920 --> 4:00:13.440 different revolution, which is like destroying this the system entirely. 4:00:13.520 --> 4:00:16.200 And this is where you get into his stuff about 4:00:16.200 --> 4:00:19.120 the division of labor, which is I think it's really 4:00:19.160 --> 4:00:23.240 interesting because it I think this this sphere of pure 4:00:23.240 --> 4:00:26.840 anarchism got to a bunch of critiques of stuff that 4:00:27.000 --> 4:00:28.640 people have gotten to now, but they got to it 4:00:28.760 --> 4:00:32.880 in where Okay, so she's always like one of his 4:00:32.960 --> 4:00:35.080 big things is that like the division of labor is 4:00:35.120 --> 4:00:38.720 inherently exploitative because it like it destroys sort of rural 4:00:38.760 --> 4:00:41.000 community living and it replaces it with the centralization of 4:00:41.040 --> 4:00:44.160 expertise and the central relation of power. And he also 4:00:44.240 --> 4:00:47.040 thinks that like science is like a capitalist engine that's 4:00:47.120 --> 4:00:50.120 used to like create the division of labor, and then 4:00:50.400 --> 4:00:53.040 it's used to create like mechanization, and it's used to 4:00:53.080 --> 4:00:56.360 create like labor exploitation. Yeah, that's that sounds like modern. 4:00:56.520 --> 4:01:00.520 A lot of like stuff that I read more modern. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 4:01:00.520 --> 4:01:02.560 except this is like they're doing this in like like 4:01:02.760 --> 4:01:07.560 nineteen twenties seven. Ye else is a capitalist engine of 4:01:07.680 --> 4:01:15.320 exploitation products and surfaces the podcast industrial complex. It's true, 4:01:16.920 --> 4:01:20.920 and we're back with more things that are exploitative and 4:01:21.320 --> 4:01:26.240 the theoretically theoretically yes, yes, but we we we we 4:01:26.440 --> 4:01:27.520 have we have to get through. We have to get 4:01:27.520 --> 4:01:29.320 through the last exploitative thing, which is the thing. I 4:01:29.400 --> 4:01:32.680 talked a bit about this earlier, but like the Puranicists 4:01:32.760 --> 4:01:36.320 argued that like cities inherently are this concentration of wealthy 4:01:36.360 --> 4:01:41.000 resources and power, and so like farmers and workers need 4:01:41.080 --> 4:01:44.120 to work together to destroy all forms of power, including cities. 4:01:45.320 --> 4:01:49.600 And this sounds a lot like primitive, is yeah, it does, 4:01:49.840 --> 4:01:53.000 although you know they wouldn't necessarily be like repping the farmers. 4:01:53.200 --> 4:01:55.480 And I think I think primitives might be the wrong term. 4:01:55.520 --> 4:01:57.880 But it's definitely a lot of like the anti tech stuff. 4:01:58.200 --> 4:02:01.240 And well it's it's interesting, okay, So they have they 4:02:01.280 --> 4:02:04.680 have like they threat this needle where so like there 4:02:04.760 --> 4:02:07.480 are people in this period who want to just go 4:02:07.640 --> 4:02:10.760 back to pure rural agrarianism and don't want their to technology, 4:02:11.880 --> 4:02:15.640 and the pure anarchists are like, no, we still want technology, 4:02:15.680 --> 4:02:18.880 but we don't want the division of labor. So they're like, 4:02:18.920 --> 4:02:21.080 we like our raping machines so we don't have to 4:02:21.160 --> 4:02:23.800 work as much when we're farming. We just don't want 4:02:23.840 --> 4:02:27.440 everyone to live in apartments. Yeah, I mean even the 4:02:27.520 --> 4:02:30.520 reaping machine. I don't know, Like it's kind of unclear 4:02:30.560 --> 4:02:34.080 to me how this is exactually supposed to work, because like, 4:02:34.880 --> 4:02:36.920 well we'll get into this. I guess we can just 4:02:36.960 --> 4:02:38.560 get into this now, which is it? Like, Okay, so 4:02:39.840 --> 4:02:41.680 they really don't like the division of labor because they 4:02:41.680 --> 4:02:45.560 think the division of labor like well, Okay, they have, 4:02:45.640 --> 4:02:47.360 they have like there's like three critiques of but one 4:02:47.480 --> 4:02:49.640 is that like when you have a division of labor, 4:02:49.760 --> 4:02:53.680 labor becomes like mechanized industrialized. And when that happens, um 4:02:54.360 --> 4:02:56.360 labor because like it gets reduced to just like a 4:02:56.480 --> 4:02:59.720 cog you put in a machine m hm. And they 4:02:59.760 --> 4:03:01.320 see this is like this is like an inherent like 4:03:01.520 --> 4:03:04.160 thing that happens with labor specializations. You just end up 4:03:04.240 --> 4:03:07.200 like being a person who makes more repetitive moving a 4:03:07.240 --> 4:03:09.680 factory over and over again, like you're not free because 4:03:09.680 --> 4:03:14.320 of this UM. And they also argue that like specialization 4:03:14.440 --> 4:03:16.880 means that people only care about like labor that they 4:03:16.920 --> 4:03:20.400 do and so this gives you like an identity that 4:03:20.520 --> 4:03:23.960 that divides workers from one sector. Like say if you're 4:03:24.000 --> 4:03:25.920 if you're you know, you're like a coal miner, right, 4:03:26.480 --> 4:03:29.760 your daily experience is so utterly different than a baker. 4:03:30.600 --> 4:03:32.080 And it's not just like your experience, it's like it's 4:03:32.080 --> 4:03:34.520 like your knowledge is different. The other person is not gonna, 4:03:34.640 --> 4:03:37.480 like the baker is not gonna understand what you're doing. Um. 4:03:39.240 --> 4:03:42.440 And you keep wanting to argue against this political position 4:03:42.520 --> 4:03:49.360 that no, no, that misunderstands the nature of specialization at all, 4:03:49.480 --> 4:03:51.520 you know. But then I'm like, all right, I can't 4:03:51.520 --> 4:03:55.400 go back and convince these people. Yeah, I think, like 4:03:55.640 --> 4:03:58.960 I think, okay, this is I'm gonna I'm gonna, I'm 4:03:58.960 --> 4:04:03.960 gonna put on my my my marks, my like weird 4:04:04.120 --> 4:04:08.560 left calm mars, noise and critique not a platform, which 4:04:08.640 --> 4:04:10.600 is not they they actually wanted as a platform, but like, 4:04:10.640 --> 4:04:12.640 I think it would have been a great critique and 4:04:12.680 --> 4:04:15.760 not a very good platform. Yeah, they're the platform. Yeah, 4:04:16.000 --> 4:04:17.600 I mean I think I think there's there's the interesting 4:04:17.640 --> 4:04:20.960 elements of it. Like they have this argument that like, okay, 4:04:21.000 --> 4:04:23.400 so if if you have your like your your syndicalists 4:04:24.160 --> 4:04:30.040 like society right where Okay, so you have a bunch 4:04:30.080 --> 4:04:32.240 of like, you have a bunch of like coal miners, 4:04:32.320 --> 4:04:34.640 you have a bunch of people who like make pots 4:04:34.680 --> 4:04:39.600 and pans. But you need to coordinate your labor because 4:04:39.800 --> 4:04:41.960 because you you have you have like specialization, you have 4:04:42.040 --> 4:04:45.040 branches of labor. And their argument is that, okay, so well, 4:04:45.360 --> 4:04:47.360 the cynicales why you do this. You have coordinating committees, 4:04:47.440 --> 4:04:50.120 right you You like, elect a person you like, send 4:04:50.160 --> 4:04:52.520 them to a coordinating council, and the coordinating council like 4:04:52.640 --> 4:04:55.360 coordinates stuff, and she was just like, well, that's just 4:04:55.400 --> 4:04:57.160 gonna choose those like things like that's just gonna turn 4:04:57.160 --> 4:04:58.680 into a state. Like you're just going to create a 4:04:58.720 --> 4:05:01.200 permanent class, even even if ap rotate people. You're you're 4:05:01.240 --> 4:05:04.280 you're creating an administrative body that's going to like rebuild 4:05:04.320 --> 4:05:10.120 the state again. And yeah, like okay, like I'm makin 4:05:10.240 --> 4:05:13.440 this like shrugging gesture that the audience cans like yeah, 4:05:13.520 --> 4:05:16.160 I got you know, Yeah, I I don't. Okay, So, 4:05:16.240 --> 4:05:18.640 like I don't think he's right about like most of this, 4:05:18.920 --> 4:05:22.960 Like I think he's sort of wrong about like almost 4:05:23.000 --> 4:05:25.280 all of it. The thing, the thing that stuck with 4:05:25.440 --> 4:05:29.000 me phil when I read this is like his specific 4:05:29.040 --> 4:05:32.800 critique of syndicalism, which is that it maintains like the 4:05:32.880 --> 4:05:36.640 structure of the old world. Because if you're a syndicalist 4:05:36.760 --> 4:05:39.800 and your your society is based on unions running their workplaces, 4:05:40.680 --> 4:05:43.320 then you've maintained the division of labor, but you've also 4:05:43.440 --> 4:05:48.720 maintained like the basic like geographic, physical, technological, and organizational 4:05:48.760 --> 4:05:52.640 structure of capitalism, like all of the like all of 4:05:52.680 --> 4:05:54.280 that stuff is still in the same place, and you're 4:05:54.320 --> 4:05:57.120 still sort of like going there to do your job, 4:05:57.240 --> 4:05:59.680 and I think there is an interesting sort of like 4:06:00.480 --> 4:06:02.800 like I think there was a genuinely interesting critique there 4:06:02.960 --> 4:06:06.600 of yeah, like how how do you make sure that 4:06:07.560 --> 4:06:14.360 you aren't just sort of reproducing that stuff? And like 4:06:14.520 --> 4:06:18.400 like I mean, I don't know, like the critique of 4:06:18.440 --> 4:06:21.160 why would you want to build a society like structured 4:06:21.200 --> 4:06:23.920 along the lines of production? Like why why do you 4:06:23.960 --> 4:06:26.520 want to structure your society around work? Like that's awful. 4:06:27.480 --> 4:06:29.440 I I like that about the pure anarchists, where they 4:06:29.480 --> 4:06:31.800 were kind of like let's let's let's throw away the 4:06:31.840 --> 4:06:33.920 Marxist ship for a minute and like just actually like 4:06:34.040 --> 4:06:36.480 figure out what we want, and like I I like 4:06:36.640 --> 4:06:40.840 that about it, But I I dislike the idea of like, 4:06:41.520 --> 4:06:44.840 well it's it's it would be my problem with syndicalism, 4:06:44.880 --> 4:06:47.280 and most of the syndicalists I met believe in syndicalism 4:06:47.360 --> 4:06:50.560 as a method and not an end result. Right, Um, 4:06:51.040 --> 4:06:53.800 it's a way of building workers power, not a way 4:06:53.880 --> 4:06:56.720 to create a society. But but if syndicalists were like 4:06:56.760 --> 4:06:59.040 everyone must wake up and go to their work job 4:06:59.160 --> 4:07:01.920 and then make eight widgets, but it's collectively determined which 4:07:01.920 --> 4:07:04.800 widgets that you make right like fun that, but also 4:07:04.960 --> 4:07:07.280 if it was like everyone goes and wakes up and 4:07:07.360 --> 4:07:09.680 goes to their collective farm and maybe we use raping 4:07:09.720 --> 4:07:12.480 machines and maybe we don't. And it's just like I 4:07:12.560 --> 4:07:16.480 get so unexcited by It's like one of the reasons 4:07:16.480 --> 4:07:18.080 that like a lot of the like nitpicky branches of 4:07:18.120 --> 4:07:21.320 anarchism don't they interest me, but I don't like subscribe 4:07:21.360 --> 4:07:24.320 to any of them is because I'm like, well, what 4:07:24.480 --> 4:07:27.240 if some people like this ship and some people like 4:07:27.400 --> 4:07:29.680 this ship like and you know, maybe they're could be 4:07:29.720 --> 4:07:32.320 fucking different. Imagine that we could have a plurality of 4:07:33.440 --> 4:07:37.920 economic models systems. But you know whatever, um I'm now 4:07:38.080 --> 4:07:42.120 arguing with that people who I probably would interesting like, well, 4:07:42.160 --> 4:07:45.320 I don't know, because these guys like they they have 4:07:45.560 --> 4:07:48.240 like the maoist thing going on where like they will 4:07:48.280 --> 4:07:51.640 like attack other leftist groups who like don't like follow 4:07:51.720 --> 4:07:54.840 their line. And so this is where this whole thing 4:07:54.960 --> 4:07:56.560 is wild, because it was one of the everything is 4:07:56.680 --> 4:08:02.000 like the the pure anarchists are like completely convinced that 4:08:02.040 --> 4:08:05.080 syndicalism is like a sort of like well they think 4:08:05.080 --> 4:08:07.480 it's it's just like it's not an anarchist thing. It's 4:08:07.520 --> 4:08:10.160 just like a tendency to labor movement. And they also 4:08:10.240 --> 4:08:12.360 think that like it's basically like a bastardised form of 4:08:12.440 --> 4:08:16.520 Marxism because they're not like entirely wrong about either of 4:08:16.640 --> 4:08:20.440 those things. But yeah, except in a different places and times. Yeah, 4:08:20.680 --> 4:08:22.080 but it's like the thing, the thing that they have 4:08:22.120 --> 4:08:25.280 about it, like because they're they're completely convinced that syndicalism 4:08:25.320 --> 4:08:29.400 will inevitably just like turn into like Soviet communism. It's 4:08:29.560 --> 4:08:36.760 like it's incredibly silly. Um, but like like this, you know, 4:08:36.800 --> 4:08:38.480 I like, on the one hand, like that they are 4:08:38.640 --> 4:08:40.760 kind of inventing a lot of the sort of like 4:08:41.160 --> 4:08:44.280 like they're they're inventing a lot of the sort of 4:08:44.400 --> 4:08:51.920 like some okay, some bad arguments about like specialization and 4:08:51.960 --> 4:08:54.280 stuff like like some anti work stuff too that like 4:08:54.480 --> 4:08:56.960 is going to be around later. They're also inventing a 4:08:57.000 --> 4:09:05.080 lot of stuff that's like and you know, initially this 4:09:05.240 --> 4:09:07.080 kind of like new theory doesn't have this doesn't have 4:09:07.120 --> 4:09:13.000 an enormous effect. Um. In six, the Federation of Black 4:09:13.120 --> 4:09:16.240 Youth or COCODA and has its first public meeting and 4:09:16.520 --> 4:09:19.640 they have a bunch of cool slogans, the slogans rolled 4:09:19.680 --> 4:09:22.920 they have. The emancipation of workers must be carried out 4:09:22.920 --> 4:09:27.360 by the workers themselves. We insist on libertarian federation, destroy 4:09:27.480 --> 4:09:31.760 the political movement, get rid of, reject the Poltarian party, 4:09:31.920 --> 4:09:36.920 get rid of professional activists with all oppressive laws and ordinances. 4:09:37.440 --> 4:09:42.840 That is an entirely based platform. Yeah, sweet, it's it's good. Yeah, 4:09:43.360 --> 4:09:44.960 And you know there were things despite the fact that 4:09:45.040 --> 4:09:46.800 it's called the Federation of Black Youth, this is like 4:09:46.960 --> 4:09:48.640 not a youth I mean, I mean there's like youth 4:09:48.720 --> 4:09:51.240 in it, but like it's it's this thing's backed by 4:09:51.280 --> 4:09:53.080 like remember those those printers unions that I was talking 4:09:53.080 --> 4:09:54.960 about last episode that as like, hi, you have like 4:09:55.000 --> 4:09:57.360 set up. So they're all heavily involved in this um 4:09:58.000 --> 4:09:59.720 and they do a bunch of cool labor stuff, Like 4:09:59.760 --> 4:10:03.080 they they get involved in like, uh, there's a bunch 4:10:03.120 --> 4:10:05.360 of tram worker strikes, they get involved in the there 4:10:05.440 --> 4:10:09.480 in this, uh, the Japanese Musical instrument company strike, which 4:10:09.560 --> 4:10:11.480 is like there's like over a thousand people on strike 4:10:11.560 --> 4:10:14.640 for like over a hundred days, and there's there's this 4:10:14.720 --> 4:10:16.920 great split where like so the leadership of the union 4:10:17.000 --> 4:10:19.640 is Bolshevik, but like a bunch of the like a 4:10:19.720 --> 4:10:22.280 bunch of the ordinary people in the union are anarchists, 4:10:22.320 --> 4:10:23.720 and so you have the there's there's like there's this 4:10:23.800 --> 4:10:26.160 fun tension going around there. They're they're they're they're doing 4:10:26.240 --> 4:10:32.440 the stuff. Um and then the anarchists form um Zengoku Gaterrand, 4:10:32.480 --> 4:10:35.840 which is the All Japanese Libertarian Federation of Labor Unions, 4:10:36.000 --> 4:10:38.840 which is a it's a federation of twenty unions. These 4:10:38.880 --> 4:10:40.720 are the pure anarchists that you're talking about that are 4:10:40.760 --> 4:10:43.440 doing all this. So sorry, at this point, they haven't 4:10:43.440 --> 4:10:45.760 split yet, okay, because it was like this sounds like 4:10:45.800 --> 4:10:47.440 all the stuff that they said that they don't want 4:10:47.480 --> 4:10:49.240 to do. Yeah, well, this is like the other the 4:10:49.280 --> 4:10:51.640 other wild thing about this is that like, okay, so 4:10:51.800 --> 4:10:54.720 the entirety of like of like pyrannicist theory, right, is 4:10:54.720 --> 4:10:58.800 about how like unions don't do revolutions and that class struggle, 4:10:58.800 --> 4:11:02.400 but like they still do strikes, like they still do 4:11:02.600 --> 4:11:05.200 all the normal stuff. It's kind of wild, Okay, I 4:11:05.320 --> 4:11:09.040 kind of like that, yeah, you know, and like and 4:11:09.200 --> 4:11:10.640 and this that that's sort of how they're able to 4:11:10.680 --> 4:11:13.920 get along in this early period and these unions like okay, 4:11:13.960 --> 4:11:15.320 so there's like a lot of printers unions in this 4:11:15.400 --> 4:11:17.600 because the prints unions are just really anarchists. But there's 4:11:17.600 --> 4:11:19.840 there's like there's a tenant farmers union. There's a loutch 4:11:19.880 --> 4:11:22.600 of like rubber unions, and it grows to like fifteen 4:11:22.960 --> 4:11:26.400 workers almost immediately, and yeah, they're they're doing a lot 4:11:26.440 --> 4:11:28.600 of cool stuff, like they have they have these huge 4:11:28.600 --> 4:11:32.520 demonstrations in support Saco and Vinzetti, uh to the US 4:11:32.760 --> 4:11:38.120 is killing for being anarchists, and also Italians just like yeah, 4:11:38.360 --> 4:11:45.000 the one time anti Italian racism was real and a 4:11:45.080 --> 4:11:47.280 hundred years ago ship was real different than it is 4:11:47.360 --> 4:11:52.920 now and it doesn't yeah yeah, yeah yeah. And for 4:11:53.080 --> 4:11:55.960 for for one year, this like this works great, you know, 4:11:56.040 --> 4:12:00.040 like the yeah that the unions up to like I 4:12:00.080 --> 4:12:03.640 think they get up to like thousand members, like it 4:12:03.680 --> 4:12:08.000 gets pretty big. But then intense conflict between the syndicalists 4:12:08.000 --> 4:12:10.520 and the anarchac and the pure anarchists breakout. And this 4:12:10.680 --> 4:12:14.040 gets so bad so fast that like the International working 4:12:14.080 --> 4:12:17.360 Man's Association, which is the like like the giant international 4:12:17.480 --> 4:12:20.760 like Federation of Cynicalist Movements like sends them a letter 4:12:21.080 --> 4:12:23.920 that are like, hey, cynicalist and Archer communists get along 4:12:24.040 --> 4:12:26.880 every literally everywhere else on earth. Their chilk. You guys 4:12:27.160 --> 4:12:33.360 like chill and the anarcha communists in Cocaduran. Uh, their 4:12:33.440 --> 4:12:37.640 response is, h we are fighting quote the betrayers, opportunists 4:12:37.720 --> 4:12:46.600 and union imperialists in Zengoku Juran's ranks can't have nice things. 4:12:47.200 --> 4:12:48.840 You know, it's great, it gets better, it gets better. 4:12:49.240 --> 4:12:56.960 So they lose. Yeah, okay, look in the conference so 4:12:57.320 --> 4:13:00.920 uh Enoka Juran which is the Union federation, like they 4:13:00.960 --> 4:13:02.760 have they have a conference, they have the yearly conference, 4:13:03.480 --> 4:13:05.600 and there's just like giant battle over like what the 4:13:05.720 --> 4:13:07.800 organizations platform is going to be a thing that doesn't 4:13:07.840 --> 4:13:11.920 matter at all, except it's a proxy ideological fight. And uh, 4:13:12.080 --> 4:13:14.240 both sides to start screaming at each other. And I'm 4:13:14.240 --> 4:13:17.960 gonna read this description from Ardashizo and Pyannicism into War Japan. 4:13:19.200 --> 4:13:23.000 Cocona and members barricaded the barrack to the anarchy. The 4:13:23.040 --> 4:13:27.880 anarchist syndicolist jeering and cat calling them, and the proceedings 4:13:27.920 --> 4:13:30.440 degenerated to the level where it was almost impossible to 4:13:30.520 --> 4:13:33.920 hear the speeches. Eventually, the anarcho Synicholas decided they had 4:13:33.960 --> 4:13:37.280 had enough unflirling their black flags, they walked out of 4:13:37.360 --> 4:13:40.720 the hall to a chorus of taunts such as believers, blind, 4:13:40.800 --> 4:13:45.840 believers in Central authority, Bolsheviks, and betrayers, Oh my god, 4:13:46.160 --> 4:13:52.400 got over yourself. Oh my no, okay, to be fair 4:13:52.480 --> 4:13:55.080 to the pure anarchists, one of so, okay, a bunch 4:13:55.120 --> 4:13:57.760 of the cynicals yount start leaving and all one of 4:13:57.840 --> 4:14:00.880 them does actually join the Bolsheviks, but like all the 4:14:00.960 --> 4:14:03.400 other ones don't because they're not and you get this 4:14:03.440 --> 4:14:05.680 period there's like they have like the cynical list and 4:14:05.720 --> 4:14:09.240 the periodicis of dueling magazines. Uh, there's won't call black flag. 4:14:09.360 --> 4:14:13.000 There won't called black battle. And like so Cokerran, which 4:14:13.000 --> 4:14:14.800 is like the youth mid thing, like the cynicalas and 4:14:14.800 --> 4:14:16.560 the anarchists are still in it together, and they like 4:14:16.840 --> 4:14:18.560 they start just like fighting each other in the street 4:14:18.560 --> 4:14:22.080 when they run into each other, because the the this 4:14:22.240 --> 4:14:25.480 is more oppressing than everyone getting murdered after the earthquake, 4:14:26.280 --> 4:14:31.280 not the anarchist killing part. Yeah well, I mean yeah, yeah, 4:14:31.480 --> 4:14:36.560 it's it's like it's incredible, you know, and like yeah, 4:14:36.720 --> 4:14:40.400 they what's interesting about this though, is that like the 4:14:40.480 --> 4:14:44.520 inarchal communists, like when the union splits, like almost all 4:14:44.600 --> 4:14:47.320 of the people stay with the communists, even though the 4:14:47.360 --> 4:14:50.160 inucer communist like explicitly saying we're not fighting for like 4:14:50.280 --> 4:14:54.880 wage increases, we're just fighting for revolution, and fine, I'm 4:14:54.880 --> 4:14:57.800 alright with that. Yeah. Well, but there's interesting stuff too worse, 4:14:57.880 --> 4:15:00.920 like like they're also so be be because they have 4:15:01.000 --> 4:15:02.920 this thing that's like, okay, so that the urban workers 4:15:02.960 --> 4:15:07.400 are like exploiting the well, okay, the line about it's 4:15:07.440 --> 4:15:09.640 complicated because it's like they think the urban workers are 4:15:09.640 --> 4:15:11.680 exploiting the countryside, but they also don't think that the 4:15:11.720 --> 4:15:13.560 solution to it is to just like turn it the 4:15:13.600 --> 4:15:15.440 other way around. They think that like the workers and 4:15:15.640 --> 4:15:18.680 the tenant farmers just worked together to like make the 4:15:18.760 --> 4:15:21.800 oppression go away, which is like a reasonable stance on it. Yeah, 4:15:22.040 --> 4:15:23.520 but it means that, you know, they're interested in, like 4:15:23.520 --> 4:15:25.560 they're interested in the royal movement in a way that 4:15:25.640 --> 4:15:31.000 like the other Japanese lefe stupments aren't. But unfortunately, you know, Okay, 4:15:31.360 --> 4:15:33.760 there's a big debate as to whether this split like 4:15:34.000 --> 4:15:38.080 actually like like how big a role this split had 4:15:38.120 --> 4:15:42.120 in the collapse of anarchism, because like bye bye by, 4:15:42.240 --> 4:15:45.240 like by like nineteen thirty one, Like the fascists have 4:15:45.320 --> 4:15:49.320 just straight up taken over Manchuria. Like I think things 4:15:49.400 --> 4:15:51.720 have gotten so fascist that it's like it's unclear whether 4:15:52.760 --> 4:15:57.240 the split matter at all. Yeah, um yeah, but you know, 4:15:57.320 --> 4:16:03.600 they run into this problem where like like coke and 4:16:05.240 --> 4:16:08.160 like the state really hates them, and they are a 4:16:08.200 --> 4:16:09.840 bunch of them get arrested and that they you know, 4:16:09.920 --> 4:16:12.080 they respond to being arrested by like getting more militant. 4:16:12.120 --> 4:16:13.880 But then that just you know, that fuels the cycle 4:16:13.920 --> 4:16:16.080 of them getting arrested for and people just leave because 4:16:16.120 --> 4:16:17.880 they're like, well, okay, if I'm in this organization, like 4:16:18.560 --> 4:16:20.640 we're all just gonna like get shot. I mean that's 4:16:20.680 --> 4:16:26.520 the spiral. Yeah yeah, And you know it's his real problem, 4:16:26.560 --> 4:16:28.880 and like how does Chesu himself becomes just like incredibly 4:16:28.920 --> 4:16:31.520 depressed by the depression of the movement. But actually thirty 4:16:31.560 --> 4:16:34.480 two he just leaves like he's just out. He like 4:16:34.520 --> 4:16:38.640 renounces his anarchism. He abuses his wife because this is 4:16:38.760 --> 4:16:41.520 the story of a bunch of guys who sucked and 4:16:41.680 --> 4:16:46.520 then he drink Yeah, well I guess okay, he he 4:16:46.720 --> 4:16:49.080 did it to him. Yeah, he drinks it. The death 4:16:49.160 --> 4:16:52.120 got it done. On his own. Yeah, and you know, 4:16:52.280 --> 4:16:55.040 so he he dies and he like kills himself. Well 4:16:55.640 --> 4:16:56.960 I don't think he was doing a purpose, but he 4:16:57.040 --> 4:17:00.840 just dies from drinking too much. Four and that year, 4:17:00.880 --> 4:17:03.720 actually the anarcho communists narcos niklas like get back together. 4:17:04.200 --> 4:17:07.760 But it doesn't matter because by this point the fascist 4:17:07.800 --> 4:17:11.760 such a start different power. And yeah, the anarchists they do, 4:17:11.840 --> 4:17:14.600 they do one last world uprising and they fight a 4:17:14.640 --> 4:17:16.440 lot of cops and then all of them get arrested 4:17:16.480 --> 4:17:18.120 and anarchism just sort of dies until the end of 4:17:18.160 --> 4:17:24.240 World War two. And yeah, it's you know, okay, anarchism 4:17:24.320 --> 4:17:27.080 does really emerge after the war, but that's like that, 4:17:27.240 --> 4:17:30.680 that's a whole another story and entirely. Uh what I 4:17:30.720 --> 4:17:33.560 will say about is if you see those those construction 4:17:33.600 --> 4:17:36.000 hats from the protests, and you see one that's just 4:17:36.120 --> 4:17:38.360 all black, it doesn't have like a name written on it, 4:17:38.440 --> 4:17:41.880 like those are the anarchists whistle around um and you know, 4:17:41.920 --> 4:17:45.240 and anarchism of Japan like survives to this day. There 4:17:45.320 --> 4:17:47.800 there there's a book called the Manual for a Worldwide 4:17:48.080 --> 4:17:50.800 for a worldwide manuk revolts that like one day, I 4:17:50.840 --> 4:17:52.760 swear to God, I'm actually gonna read. But he is 4:17:53.120 --> 4:17:55.160 really big in China. Well, okay, I said really big 4:17:55.240 --> 4:18:00.720 in China. It's very influential in a very small subcultural 4:18:01.000 --> 4:18:04.480 anarchist scene in China. But I'm talking about them because 4:18:04.640 --> 4:18:09.200 it heavily influenced Like the people who wrote the Lying 4:18:09.240 --> 4:18:13.160 Flat manifesto, Um, we're like, we're very heavily influenced by 4:18:13.200 --> 4:18:18.040 this stuff. Oh okay, okay, So we would just episode 4:18:18.040 --> 4:18:19.680 about this a while back, but Lying Flat was this 4:18:19.760 --> 4:18:21.680 thing in China, I guess still going on, but like 4:18:21.720 --> 4:18:24.200 people were just like it's kind of it was kind 4:18:24.200 --> 4:18:26.720 of the version of anti work or most people like 4:18:27.200 --> 4:18:29.600 discovered Diogenes and or like what if I just didn't work? 4:18:30.760 --> 4:18:33.440 What if I just like lived on, like I worked 4:18:33.480 --> 4:18:35.520 like one day a month and then lived on like 4:18:35.960 --> 4:18:37.600 nothing so I didn't have to work, Or if I 4:18:37.640 --> 4:18:40.280 just quit. What if I just like stop doing all 4:18:40.320 --> 4:18:42.160 of this capitalist stuff, and what if I like stop 4:18:42.320 --> 4:18:44.240 having to deal with this patriarchy. What if I just like, 4:18:45.440 --> 4:18:49.200 you know, yeah, and it takes kind of like yeah, yeah, 4:18:49.200 --> 4:18:52.800 they're they're great. They've loss of one Diogenes quotes, lots 4:18:52.880 --> 4:18:56.200 of like the the manifesto they released is like very 4:18:56.800 --> 4:19:00.280 it's like very anarchist and yeah, like that thing, and 4:19:00.360 --> 4:19:01.760 that was like like this, this is a big enough 4:19:01.880 --> 4:19:05.080 social movement that like like she jumping like mentioned it 4:19:05.120 --> 4:19:08.640 in a speech, okay, and so yeah, like Jeffrey's anachism. 4:19:08.720 --> 4:19:13.480 Still for them, they were had kind of concerned about 4:19:15.240 --> 4:19:18.000 like the same way a whole bunch of like oligarchs 4:19:18.040 --> 4:19:20.880 got concerned about the anti work stuff, and you saw 4:19:20.960 --> 4:19:23.640 like anti work hit pieces in the past like six months. 4:19:24.000 --> 4:19:26.720 It was it was like similar things, being like, well, 4:19:26.840 --> 4:19:30.040 this better not catch on more because that could really 4:19:30.120 --> 4:19:34.240 suck for us. That's as optimistic of a note as 4:19:34.280 --> 4:19:36.120 you could possibly get out of the story, which is 4:19:36.200 --> 4:19:38.960 that they're still around and they still influenced things that matter, 4:19:39.640 --> 4:19:44.160 so and hopefully they don't fight each other more than 4:19:44.240 --> 4:19:50.640 the state. Yeah, don't don't do that, Like I like, yes, 4:19:52.200 --> 4:19:55.160 I guess I will make my controversial Sometimes it's okay 4:19:55.160 --> 4:19:57.920 to stab an abuser under the throat stance. But also, 4:19:59.040 --> 4:20:03.800 don't urge all your syndicalists because on the accusation of 4:20:03.840 --> 4:20:08.880 Bullshevism hot take, don't purge all your classes. Yeah, yeah, 4:20:09.400 --> 4:20:12.440 don't systematize violence like that. You know, you're like this 4:20:12.600 --> 4:20:15.720 individual guy just did this thing, and I'm real upset 4:20:15.760 --> 4:20:17.160 that he just did it to me, And there's like 4:20:17.200 --> 4:20:20.080 a throat. I'm not actually making an actual advocacy. I'm 4:20:20.080 --> 4:20:22.280 talking about how sometimes when that has happened in history, 4:20:22.400 --> 4:20:26.760 that seemed kind of cool. But yeah, not the not 4:20:26.920 --> 4:20:31.640 the systemic kick out all the people who have this 4:20:31.840 --> 4:20:34.480 minor I mean, it's really funny to me because I'm like, 4:20:35.160 --> 4:20:37.680 I'm like huge anti infighting. Then people are like, don't 4:20:37.680 --> 4:20:39.640 you spend all your time fighting tankies on the internet, 4:20:39.640 --> 4:20:42.920 And I'm like, they want to make a state that's different. Yeah, 4:20:44.120 --> 4:20:46.800 they believe that they everyone should be thrown in jail. 4:20:47.200 --> 4:20:54.360 That is a different thing. Um. Also, I don't like 4:20:56.640 --> 4:20:59.960 you've got to manage to polycuele drauma, Like you've gotta manage. 4:21:00.120 --> 4:21:03.600 It's got to be kept under control. You cannot allow 4:21:03.680 --> 4:21:06.520 your retired you seem to be factionalized over rival policels 4:21:06.600 --> 4:21:16.960 and anarchists control your polychuel drama quotations and partisis impossible. See, 4:21:16.960 --> 4:21:19.160 that's why you just need more. Maybe it's not true, 4:21:19.160 --> 4:21:22.720 it's like you need more multi generational anarchists because I 4:21:22.800 --> 4:21:24.840 think people in their forties give less of a ship 4:21:24.920 --> 4:21:27.360 about a lot of the drama. But then I'm like, 4:21:28.400 --> 4:21:30.720 maybe that's not true. Maybe people on their forties it 4:21:30.840 --> 4:21:37.200 give just as much of a ship about all the drama. Anarchism, 4:21:37.480 --> 4:21:44.720 wonderful idea Yep, yeah, it's good. And speaking of wonderful ideas, 4:21:45.440 --> 4:21:50.160 it is time for us to do the plugs. Um. First, 4:21:50.440 --> 4:21:53.000 I just want to plug Jimmie Loftus is new Cools 4:21:53.080 --> 4:21:57.720 one media podcast Goes Church by Jimmie Loftus. Uh. By 4:21:57.800 --> 4:22:01.600 the time this drops, episode one will be out in 4:22:01.720 --> 4:22:06.160 Episode two will be dropping the next Monday, I believe, 4:22:06.400 --> 4:22:11.040 yes exactly. And we also have another podcast on Cools 4:22:11.080 --> 4:22:14.880 and Media with one Margaret Killjoy called Cool People Who 4:22:14.960 --> 4:22:17.560 Did Cool Stuff? Margaret, you wanted to tell us about that? Oh? 4:22:17.600 --> 4:22:19.200 Should should I start working on that. I'll get it 4:22:19.240 --> 4:22:23.040 done by monday. Okay? Cool? Um, I have a new 4:22:23.080 --> 4:22:25.720 podcast called Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff, which is 4:22:26.200 --> 4:22:31.880 as about cool people who did did cool stuff, and 4:22:32.480 --> 4:22:36.320 you might like it if you like stories about people who. Um, 4:22:37.120 --> 4:22:39.160 I can't say cool stuff again, I'll have to use 4:22:39.240 --> 4:22:41.080 come up with more synonyms. Really, it's just all a 4:22:41.160 --> 4:22:43.280 competition to see how many synonyms for cool I can 4:22:43.320 --> 4:22:45.320 come up with without using the word based, because I 4:22:45.360 --> 4:22:47.960 feel like I'm too old to use the word based 4:22:48.120 --> 4:22:51.200 without really, this is what you are here for. So 4:22:51.280 --> 4:22:53.760 I'm much more eloquent on my podcast, which you can 4:22:53.800 --> 4:22:57.360 catch every Monday and Wednesday wherever you get your podcasts, 4:22:57.400 --> 4:22:59.760 probably wherever you got this podcast is where you can 4:22:59.800 --> 4:23:02.200 find it. And the trailer is out now, so you 4:23:02.280 --> 4:23:04.800 can go and you can listen to the trailer where 4:23:04.840 --> 4:23:07.640 I talk about some anarchist bank robbers who broke out 4:23:07.720 --> 4:23:10.400 of prison, because why would you be in prison when 4:23:10.440 --> 4:23:13.640 you could be outside of prison, which is generally the 4:23:13.720 --> 4:23:17.240 preferable position to be in, with the exception of like 4:23:17.320 --> 4:23:19.480 every now and then, like people break up out of 4:23:19.560 --> 4:23:21.600 jail by like someone goes to jail on purpose, but 4:23:21.640 --> 4:23:23.520 they have like hacks all blades in their shoes and ship. 4:23:23.760 --> 4:23:27.880 That would be cool too. Um So more breaking your 4:23:27.920 --> 4:23:31.080 friends out of jail and less chasing them out of 4:23:31.120 --> 4:23:36.600 the room jeering at them is my general rule. I 4:23:36.680 --> 4:23:38.880 hate to make rules, but if I were to make one, 4:23:39.080 --> 4:23:41.440 it would be that. And you can hear me talk 4:23:41.480 --> 4:23:47.160 about those kinds of stories on the podcast. Well, thank thank, 4:23:47.280 --> 4:23:50.560 thank you so much for joining joining us today, for 4:23:51.040 --> 4:23:56.840 for Chris to talk about the wonderful, wonderful history of 4:23:57.440 --> 4:24:03.320 Japanese and the very the many deaths that are associated 4:24:03.960 --> 4:24:07.880 in those poor people and yeah, the like so basically 4:24:08.160 --> 4:24:13.920 like a like a mini Korean genocide. Yeah, yeah, intense. 4:24:15.520 --> 4:24:18.280 Well that's it for us today. You can find this 4:24:18.360 --> 4:24:21.600 on Instagram. It Happen to your pot in cool Zone Media. Uh, 4:24:21.840 --> 4:24:25.160 see you next week and go listen to podcasts. We 4:24:25.280 --> 4:24:32.600 have many of them. Hey, we'll be back Monday with 4:24:32.880 --> 4:24:35.680 more episodes every week from now until the heat Death 4:24:35.720 --> 4:24:38.280 of the Universe. It Could Happen Here is a production 4:24:38.320 --> 4:24:41.320 of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, 4:24:41.440 --> 4:24:43.920 visit our website cool zone media dot com or check 4:24:44.000 --> 4:24:46.240 us out on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 4:24:46.360 --> 4:24:49.320 or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources 4:24:49.360 --> 4:24:51.960 for It Could Happen Here, updated monthly at cool zone 4:24:51.960 --> 4:24:54.720 Media dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.