1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:02,680 Speaker 1: Hey everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let 2 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:06,359 Speaker 1: you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode 3 00:00:06,480 --> 00:00:09,600 Speaker 1: of the week that just happened is here in one 4 00:00:09,680 --> 00:00:13,440 Speaker 1: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 5 00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:15,960 Speaker 1: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 6 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:17,919 Speaker 1: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 7 00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:20,079 Speaker 1: there's gotta be nothing new here for you, but you 8 00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:27,920 Speaker 1: can make your own decisions. Hey, everybody, this is it 9 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:30,360 Speaker 1: could happen here. I am Robert Evans. This is a 10 00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:32,720 Speaker 1: podcast about things falling apart and sometimes how to put 11 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:36,040 Speaker 1: them back together. Today this is another episode about the 12 00:00:36,080 --> 00:00:40,120 Speaker 1: war in Ukraine. UM. It's going to be eventually an 13 00:00:40,159 --> 00:00:43,600 Speaker 1: interview with a Ukrainian anarchist militant who is fighting on 14 00:00:43,720 --> 00:00:49,080 Speaker 1: behalf of of of Ukrainian people UM in that conflict. 15 00:00:49,240 --> 00:00:54,080 Speaker 1: But here's a little introduction first. So anarchists are all 16 00:00:54,080 --> 00:00:56,720 Speaker 1: about the elimination of hierarchy, and since the state tends 17 00:00:56,760 --> 00:00:59,960 Speaker 1: to be the hierarchy ist thing around, most anarchist act 18 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:02,320 Speaker 1: this tend to either seek the destruction of the state 19 00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:05,600 Speaker 1: or at least snatches of a life lived beyond its bounds. 20 00:01:06,080 --> 00:01:09,360 Speaker 1: The most joyful moments, and anarchist organized protests tend to 21 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:13,240 Speaker 1: be those brief liberatory windows where anything seems possible, and 22 00:01:13,319 --> 00:01:16,480 Speaker 1: even say middle class suburban moms might feel briefly like 23 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:18,920 Speaker 1: they could tear down the walls of a federal courthouse. 24 00:01:19,560 --> 00:01:22,240 Speaker 1: So the idea of anarchists joining and fighting in a 25 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:25,840 Speaker 1: national military, commanding and being commanded in the hierarchy of 26 00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:30,200 Speaker 1: the state's defense forces feels like a pretty big contradiction. Yet, 27 00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:33,800 Speaker 1: when the Russian Federation launched a massively expanded invasion of 28 00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:39,160 Speaker 1: Ukraine in February two, many Ukrainian anarchists announced their intention 29 00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:42,640 Speaker 1: to fight on the side of their government. Organizations like 30 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:46,440 Speaker 1: rev DIA formed militias which have been integrated into Ukrainian 31 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:50,120 Speaker 1: territorial defense forces. In one statement I found on the 32 00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:54,160 Speaker 1: website enough is Enough, a militant representing rev DEA explained 33 00:01:54,200 --> 00:01:58,280 Speaker 1: their feelings this way, Ukrainian anarchists are at war with 34 00:01:58,360 --> 00:02:02,200 Speaker 1: Russian expansionism, fascists, and the government. They have created their 35 00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:04,920 Speaker 1: own arm and call on us to join them. Every 36 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:08,800 Speaker 1: anarchist collective and organization that understands the revolutionary task and 37 00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:12,919 Speaker 1: the internationalists struggle must transform its general anti war position 38 00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:16,959 Speaker 1: into a position of engagement by participating in or strengthening 39 00:02:16,960 --> 00:02:20,799 Speaker 1: the anarchist Ukrainian guerilla struggle without suspensions and by attacking 40 00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:24,320 Speaker 1: the Russian economic and political power. Victory in arms for 41 00:02:24,360 --> 00:02:28,040 Speaker 1: the anarchists in Ukraine who stand against Russian imperialism, fascist 42 00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:32,680 Speaker 1: paramilitary groups and the democratic government in Kiev. Solidarity with 43 00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:35,240 Speaker 1: the Russian and Belarusian anarchists who are crawling in the 44 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:38,720 Speaker 1: democratic dungeons trying to stop the war. Let us give 45 00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:41,400 Speaker 1: space to the people and not to the imperialist dreams 46 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:44,160 Speaker 1: that divide the planet into plots. We are forever with 47 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:46,360 Speaker 1: the invisible people of the world who are fighting for 48 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:52,280 Speaker 1: an inclusive, self organized and anti hierarchical world. So anarchists 49 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:55,480 Speaker 1: with Reveda and other Ukrainian organizations are very much acting 50 00:02:55,480 --> 00:02:58,120 Speaker 1: in line with more than a century of anarchist tradition 51 00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:02,600 Speaker 1: in Ukraine. During the Russian Revolution, famed Ukrainian anarchist war 52 00:03:02,639 --> 00:03:05,720 Speaker 1: lord Nestor Makno was forced to make a tough decision. 53 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:10,040 Speaker 1: Ukrainian nationalists threatened the central government that had arisen after 54 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:12,840 Speaker 1: the fall of the Czar, and Makno and his comrades 55 00:03:12,919 --> 00:03:17,080 Speaker 1: decided to defend the democratic socialist government against the nationalists 56 00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:21,760 Speaker 1: from the book Anarchy's Cossack quote. That decision faced the 57 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:24,280 Speaker 1: local anarchists with a problem, for it had them support 58 00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:27,280 Speaker 1: governmental forces here, which, even if they were of the left, 59 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:31,560 Speaker 1: were nonetheless potential enemies of the masses. Autonomy Makno reckoned 60 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:34,840 Speaker 1: at the time that as anarchists, we must, paradox or 61 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:37,640 Speaker 1: no paradox, make up our minds to form a united 62 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:41,360 Speaker 1: front with the governmental forces, keeping faith with anarchist principles. 63 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:44,200 Speaker 1: We will find a way to rise above these contradictions, 64 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:47,360 Speaker 1: and once the dark forces of reaction have been smashed, 65 00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:50,120 Speaker 1: we will broaden and deepen the course of the revolution 66 00:03:50,200 --> 00:03:54,720 Speaker 1: for the greater good of an enslaved humanity. Roughly one 67 00:03:54,760 --> 00:03:57,440 Speaker 1: month into the expanded Russian invasion, I had the chance 68 00:03:57,480 --> 00:03:59,960 Speaker 1: to sit down and interview an anarchist in Ukraine who 69 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:04,440 Speaker 1: was participating in the resistance to Putin's regime. We conducted 70 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:06,640 Speaker 1: our interview over the course of several days as his 71 00:04:06,720 --> 00:04:10,000 Speaker 1: fighting schedule allowed, and we did so over voice messages 72 00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 1: in signal. His audio quality was thankfully quite good. I 73 00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:16,920 Speaker 1: have condensed some bits of the interview, particularly my questions, 74 00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:19,440 Speaker 1: to make things easier to understand, and I moved some 75 00:04:19,480 --> 00:04:22,080 Speaker 1: stuff around a little bit. I hope this is still 76 00:04:22,120 --> 00:04:26,200 Speaker 1: pretty clear. Now here's our source introducing himself. What I 77 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:30,000 Speaker 1: would start you to tell about my story is um, 78 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:34,839 Speaker 1: let's call me Iliah. I am an anarchist from some 79 00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:40,320 Speaker 1: neighboring country, but live in Ukraine for civilary several years. 80 00:04:41,120 --> 00:04:44,320 Speaker 1: I had to leave my homeland because of the political 81 00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:49,880 Speaker 1: repressions against anarchists there ah and for me participation in 82 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:58,159 Speaker 1: this conflict. It has several dimensions, uh once like the 83 00:04:58,160 --> 00:05:03,120 Speaker 1: the first and simplest thing is that Ukraine, even though 84 00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:08,839 Speaker 1: it's like highly imperfect state like with clear new liberal 85 00:05:08,880 --> 00:05:15,000 Speaker 1: stuff and some nationalists and var right influences in the politicum, 86 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:19,840 Speaker 1: but still is more like gray zone and more like 87 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:24,279 Speaker 1: um how to say, pluralistic and free space. The state 88 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:27,760 Speaker 1: here has much less control than in Russia and Belarus, 89 00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:30,680 Speaker 1: for example. I wanted to start by asking them about 90 00:05:30,720 --> 00:05:33,400 Speaker 1: the elephant in any room where people are discussing left 91 00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:37,279 Speaker 1: wing resistance in Ukraine, the neo Nazi as Off battalion. 92 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:40,880 Speaker 1: I've think it's important for people to like just talk 93 00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:45,280 Speaker 1: about as Off and and and whatnot, and not whitewash 94 00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:48,479 Speaker 1: what's going on. There, But it strikes me that they 95 00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:52,360 Speaker 1: have a really effective social media campaign and they're they're 96 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:54,720 Speaker 1: sneaking a lot of videos and a lot of combat 97 00:05:54,720 --> 00:05:58,799 Speaker 1: footage and whatnot out into kind of Western mainstream media 98 00:05:58,880 --> 00:06:03,239 Speaker 1: without people realizing Nazis Well. To be honest, of course, uh, 99 00:06:03,480 --> 00:06:07,279 Speaker 1: far right movement is much more massive in Ukraine than 100 00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:12,600 Speaker 1: any libertarian leftist movements at the moment. This I think 101 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:17,080 Speaker 1: is obvious for you. But at the same time, sometimes 102 00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:22,479 Speaker 1: conscious or unconscious pro Russian propagandists try to portray the 103 00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:26,600 Speaker 1: situation as if it is Nazi state or something like 104 00:06:26,640 --> 00:06:30,120 Speaker 1: all the resistance is far right or something, but actually 105 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:34,560 Speaker 1: general part of the state. And also, which is more important, 106 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:39,880 Speaker 1: of the grassroots popular resistance is just a political in 107 00:06:40,040 --> 00:06:43,400 Speaker 1: sense that like most of the army, are not in 108 00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:46,599 Speaker 1: the politics, even though of course we aware that army 109 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:51,760 Speaker 1: is political institution itself, uh, and especially all those people 110 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:55,320 Speaker 1: in the villages who are now taking up arms to 111 00:06:55,520 --> 00:06:59,840 Speaker 1: guard their lands against the occupiers, they are also not 112 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:05,279 Speaker 1: politicularly affiliated. Somehow, Ilia and many of his comrades see 113 00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:08,919 Speaker 1: anarchist participation in the struggle against Russia as necessary for 114 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:11,960 Speaker 1: two reasons. The most basic is that Putin's regime is 115 00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:15,040 Speaker 1: a threat to their life and freedom to the secondary 116 00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:17,200 Speaker 1: reason is that if they don't fight, they will have 117 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:20,160 Speaker 1: no ability to influence what happens in their country after 118 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:25,240 Speaker 1: the war. Today. This invasion, it really constructs the threat 119 00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:30,280 Speaker 1: for the whole existence of this society, more society than 120 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:34,440 Speaker 1: to the states itself, because this is a kind of 121 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:40,360 Speaker 1: attempt to export this totalitarian hell which are constructed in 122 00:07:40,600 --> 00:07:44,920 Speaker 1: Russia more or less. And to confront this just not 123 00:07:45,160 --> 00:07:49,720 Speaker 1: let it happen is already a task I think. But 124 00:07:49,840 --> 00:07:54,840 Speaker 1: of course to come to to defend some land against 125 00:07:56,080 --> 00:08:01,200 Speaker 1: some occupation, for me is too simplistic for the anarchist 126 00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:08,360 Speaker 1: and revolutionary approach. So there come like more detailed reason reasons. 127 00:08:08,400 --> 00:08:12,160 Speaker 1: I would say, first of all, I really believe that 128 00:08:12,320 --> 00:08:18,360 Speaker 1: if Putting will be confronted intensively and successfully here, then 129 00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:23,760 Speaker 1: it's very possible that it will break the spine of 130 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:28,440 Speaker 1: this regime in Russia, which may lead to revolutionary changes 131 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:33,920 Speaker 1: both in Russia and Belarus, because Belarusian dictatorship exists, like 132 00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:41,440 Speaker 1: realize very much on put In support and so on. Uh. 133 00:08:41,559 --> 00:08:46,280 Speaker 1: And another dimension is that any force which wants to 134 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:52,360 Speaker 1: be like really politically meaningful in Ukrainian society should take 135 00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:57,040 Speaker 1: sides in this conflict. All people who say some dogmatic 136 00:08:57,520 --> 00:09:00,760 Speaker 1: things like we are against all states again or worse, 137 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:03,400 Speaker 1: this is not enough. Now, this is not a position 138 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:06,920 Speaker 1: now uh. And now this is really popular resistance. Like 139 00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:11,520 Speaker 1: if you do not, if you do not join it 140 00:09:11,640 --> 00:09:17,240 Speaker 1: for whatever reasons, then you exclude yourself from actual political 141 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:22,000 Speaker 1: process because the main questions will be like where are 142 00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:24,520 Speaker 1: you and where were you in these events? And of 143 00:09:24,559 --> 00:09:29,240 Speaker 1: course the right side is to confront this imperialist occupation. Uh. 144 00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:35,360 Speaker 1: This can really give an opportunity to like for future 145 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:38,520 Speaker 1: and not not for future, actually already today for organizing 146 00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:45,560 Speaker 1: and mobilization of revolutionary libertarian forces UM and constructing ourselves 147 00:09:45,640 --> 00:09:51,839 Speaker 1: as some considerable significant movement. Like for example, now there 148 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:56,800 Speaker 1: is this unit of territorial self defense which enarchies participate 149 00:09:56,920 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 1: in actively. UM. This is now already around fifty people. Well, 150 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:10,160 Speaker 1: it was unlike unimaginable the recent years and months to 151 00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:15,640 Speaker 1: have some gathering of fifty enarchy antifascialists and so on 152 00:10:16,559 --> 00:10:19,280 Speaker 1: as some joint unit. But now this is the reality, 153 00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:24,600 Speaker 1: and this mobilization is made because of this invasion. Actually, 154 00:10:25,520 --> 00:10:28,800 Speaker 1: so this is something that makes sense. Ut my opinion, 155 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:34,559 Speaker 1: and another interesting thing I think in context of comparing 156 00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:41,120 Speaker 1: for example UH far left and far right participating in 157 00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:45,520 Speaker 1: Ukrainian political life and the current events, that of course 158 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:49,760 Speaker 1: for us any collaboration with the state is much more 159 00:10:49,840 --> 00:10:55,040 Speaker 1: problematic than for the Nazis, because even they're like UM 160 00:10:55,720 --> 00:10:59,280 Speaker 1: ideology and mindset, as far as they can evaluate, it 161 00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:05,280 Speaker 1: pretty allows them both any relations with the state structures 162 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:08,760 Speaker 1: and also any dirty schemes both with the state, with 163 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:15,760 Speaker 1: the business and with criminal sphere. Like UM UH, our 164 00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:22,560 Speaker 1: approaches are much more puristic, which is partly good of course, 165 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:27,800 Speaker 1: but also have some consequences for us to be much 166 00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:31,520 Speaker 1: less adoptable as the movement to the real social, political, 167 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:38,079 Speaker 1: economical realities. And for example, now currently this is still 168 00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:42,079 Speaker 1: a question for anarchists should we join, for example, the 169 00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:47,960 Speaker 1: Territorial Defense UH forces, which is even though somehow militia 170 00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:53,559 Speaker 1: like localized institution, but still of course like state affiliated 171 00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:59,280 Speaker 1: force orchestrated and arranged by the state and subordinated to 172 00:11:59,679 --> 00:12:05,640 Speaker 1: state army hierarchical system UM. But we still believe that 173 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:13,120 Speaker 1: in current events UM this participation like it UH less 174 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:17,840 Speaker 1: compromise us, but more give us the tools to organize 175 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:22,559 Speaker 1: to get experience and to get subjectivity, if we can 176 00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:26,400 Speaker 1: say so in English, like to to to become really 177 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:30,680 Speaker 1: an actor. UM. And still this, within this frame is 178 00:12:30,679 --> 00:12:37,320 Speaker 1: still possible to maintain UM political independence and even some 179 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:41,920 Speaker 1: sort of structural independence. So this is not just people 180 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:44,440 Speaker 1: are going and joining the army and that's it. They 181 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:48,600 Speaker 1: are now just units UM at least up to the moment. 182 00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:53,360 Speaker 1: This is not our story and this is something at 183 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:58,280 Speaker 1: least me personally reflecting on a lot. First, I would 184 00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:01,760 Speaker 1: like you mentioned you came to Ukraine from a neighboring 185 00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:05,600 Speaker 1: country where repression of anarchists was more severe. I am 186 00:13:05,679 --> 00:13:09,559 Speaker 1: interested prior to, you know, this stage of the invasion. 187 00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:14,079 Speaker 1: Obviously the first invasion happened, but prior to this escalation, 188 00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:19,840 Speaker 1: how would you describe state repression against anarchists in Ukraine, 189 00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:23,640 Speaker 1: the degree to which anarchist organizing was opposed by the state, 190 00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:27,480 Speaker 1: by the police in Ukraine. UM. And then the follow 191 00:13:27,559 --> 00:13:30,120 Speaker 1: up question to that would be, as you guys saw 192 00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:34,800 Speaker 1: this war building, could you elaborate on some of the 193 00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:37,720 Speaker 1: discussions that happened about what to do, about whether or 194 00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:39,960 Speaker 1: not to form militious whether or not or to what 195 00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:45,760 Speaker 1: extent to fight alongside the government. UM. So about state 196 00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:50,840 Speaker 1: repressions against the anarchists in Ukraine in recent years, I 197 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:55,600 Speaker 1: would say that they were, of course UM much less 198 00:13:55,640 --> 00:14:01,000 Speaker 1: hard than for example, in Belarus and Russia. UH. Also 199 00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:06,200 Speaker 1: because like for different reasons, because of in general of 200 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:11,920 Speaker 1: course more pluralist political culture and political situation in Ukraine, 201 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:18,360 Speaker 1: but also partly because the anarchist movement in after my 202 00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:21,880 Speaker 1: Dan period was not that organized and not that combative 203 00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:28,000 Speaker 1: to really draw drive attention of the state to itself. 204 00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:33,840 Speaker 1: And also what I need to say that in maybe 205 00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:42,920 Speaker 1: two thousand nineteen and twenty, this attention grew dramatically after 206 00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:47,480 Speaker 1: several direct actions were taken by anarchists, for example, some 207 00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:52,840 Speaker 1: sabotage against UH cell phone towers of some Turkish affiliated 208 00:14:52,880 --> 00:14:58,480 Speaker 1: company when Turkey invaded Rojava in UH the late autumn 209 00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:02,760 Speaker 1: of two thousand nineteen and often and also several actions 210 00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:09,120 Speaker 1: against some police stations UH. Some of these statements were 211 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:15,440 Speaker 1: placed in anarchist fighter website and telegram channel UH, and 212 00:15:15,560 --> 00:15:21,040 Speaker 1: so police and secret services got, how to say, very 213 00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:25,840 Speaker 1: energetic in their attempts to find the people who did this, 214 00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:31,120 Speaker 1: even though they didn't succeed. Actually, so several house rates 215 00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:37,880 Speaker 1: taking place. They also tried to depart one anarchist from Belarus, 216 00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:43,600 Speaker 1: Alexey Brenkov, who UH stayed in Ukraine for several years 217 00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:52,200 Speaker 1: while decided to move out from Lukashenko regime and so UH. 218 00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:55,320 Speaker 1: But they didn't depart actually, and also their house rates 219 00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:57,800 Speaker 1: were not successful, so they didn't succeed in the in 220 00:15:57,840 --> 00:16:01,600 Speaker 1: their repressions. So in the last couple of this picture, 221 00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:06,760 Speaker 1: UH would say vegetarian picture of zero attention of the 222 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:11,400 Speaker 1: state to anarchist movement. It changed, so it started to 223 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:15,040 Speaker 1: be like a different way before it actually also was 224 00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:20,880 Speaker 1: some direct actions believed to be related with revolutionary action 225 00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:25,960 Speaker 1: anarchist group. It was if I am not mistaken around 226 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:30,560 Speaker 1: to Southern seventeen and so on. UH. And this also 227 00:16:31,560 --> 00:16:39,040 Speaker 1: verse somehow UM prosecuted by by Ukrainian secret services. Also 228 00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:45,320 Speaker 1: about organized participation of different anarchist faction UH in the 229 00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:51,120 Speaker 1: current resistance against the Putting East imperialist aggression. Like about 230 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:55,160 Speaker 1: the most organized initiative you all in most numbered you 231 00:16:55,240 --> 00:17:01,200 Speaker 1: already know, but there are several others, smaller groups like 232 00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:07,080 Speaker 1: more like affinity groups or several friends participating in different units. 233 00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:10,600 Speaker 1: We even cannot count it because we even don't know 234 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:14,399 Speaker 1: about everyone who participate. At this point, he started talking 235 00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:17,560 Speaker 1: about an anarchist militant named Igor wala Chow, who had 236 00:17:17,600 --> 00:17:20,639 Speaker 1: been killed by a rocket in Kharkiv a few days earlier. 237 00:17:21,080 --> 00:17:23,600 Speaker 1: Before the war. Wala Chow had expressed a desire to 238 00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:26,679 Speaker 1: organize a network of co ops across Ukraine. He had 239 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:30,080 Speaker 1: also been active in providing support for anarchists jailed in Russia. 240 00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:34,399 Speaker 1: Ilia referred to him as having been martyred. He was participating, 241 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:37,919 Speaker 1: I don't know, either individually or with some of his 242 00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:41,320 Speaker 1: friends from Karkiv, but for example, I knew nothing about 243 00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:46,280 Speaker 1: their group and their participations. There is also Black Flag, 244 00:17:46,840 --> 00:17:51,199 Speaker 1: anarchist group from Reliev which now as far as I know, 245 00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:56,200 Speaker 1: participating in territorial self defense of Kiev. At least they 246 00:17:56,240 --> 00:18:00,800 Speaker 1: released several photos and some short statement. This is something 247 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:04,199 Speaker 1: organized which I know about, and apart from that, I know, 248 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:10,600 Speaker 1: just as I already Telt told you, several affinity groups, 249 00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:13,840 Speaker 1: groups of friends. The overall picture he painted of anarchist 250 00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:17,159 Speaker 1: resistance in Ukraine was extremely atomized, due in part to 251 00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:20,240 Speaker 1: pre war concerns about avoiding state repression and the myriad 252 00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:24,800 Speaker 1: doctrinal differences between different kinds of anarchists. The war seems 253 00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:27,639 Speaker 1: to have had a catalyzing effect which has made larger 254 00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:31,680 Speaker 1: militant anarchist organizing possible for the first time in recent memory. 255 00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:35,399 Speaker 1: Eliah was cautiously optimistic about this, but he and his 256 00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:39,480 Speaker 1: comrades also recognized a danger here. We are trying to 257 00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:44,880 Speaker 1: avoid attention from the state services, from secret services, even 258 00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:49,879 Speaker 1: though we still have to collaborate UH somehow with the 259 00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:54,439 Speaker 1: military hierarchy and so on in this situation. But of 260 00:18:54,440 --> 00:19:00,560 Speaker 1: course we understand that if we will attract undesirable attention, 261 00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:05,159 Speaker 1: than probably some forces would try to destroy us or 262 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:11,320 Speaker 1: somehow assimilate subjugate us. None of these scenarios are good 263 00:19:11,359 --> 00:19:14,920 Speaker 1: for us, and we aware of it. So we try 264 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:18,800 Speaker 1: to have some publicity and at the same time to 265 00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:24,000 Speaker 1: act ourselves in the way which will not drive repressive 266 00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:29,160 Speaker 1: attention to us. Like immediately. So up to now, within 267 00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:34,400 Speaker 1: this frame of territorial defense UH and UH like some 268 00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:39,320 Speaker 1: civil volunteer activities and some other quite conventional activities of 269 00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:45,320 Speaker 1: participating in this conflict against the putting east Side, we 270 00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:52,120 Speaker 1: believe that we can take the ground for the new 271 00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:57,040 Speaker 1: conceptions and programs of lack of libertarian cause and also 272 00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:03,600 Speaker 1: some organizational developments, some organized structure which are of course 273 00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:07,560 Speaker 1: not necessarily should be illegal from from the very first steps, 274 00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:14,639 Speaker 1: but to establish some organizational basis and maybe hopefully ideological 275 00:20:14,680 --> 00:20:21,000 Speaker 1: basis which will help us to act more actively both 276 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:24,040 Speaker 1: during the war and after war. Could you go into 277 00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:26,480 Speaker 1: a little more detail about the ways in which you 278 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:29,960 Speaker 1: all do your units do kind of interface with the state. 279 00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:32,960 Speaker 1: I went on to ask how they organized their combat 280 00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:35,800 Speaker 1: units and whether or not this reflected their broader beliefs 281 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:39,680 Speaker 1: about horizontal organizing. His basic answer was that the militias 282 00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:43,040 Speaker 1: have to operate within a military command structure and thus 283 00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:45,880 Speaker 1: have to be broadly organized in the same way conventional 284 00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:49,960 Speaker 1: military units are. However, being a regular their life outside 285 00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:53,560 Speaker 1: of battle was much less regimented than what regular soldiers experience. 286 00:20:54,640 --> 00:21:01,160 Speaker 1: So about military hierarchy in general, of course, territory defense 287 00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:06,159 Speaker 1: forces are set by the state and they are included 288 00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:11,240 Speaker 1: into the general structure of a military hierarchy of regular army. 289 00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:15,840 Speaker 1: In this sense, we are of course generally not autonomous, 290 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:22,560 Speaker 1: and what is what's been issued by superior command we 291 00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:29,240 Speaker 1: should implement in life and should um fulfill these orders. However, 292 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:33,960 Speaker 1: now territorial defense forces I would not speak about all 293 00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:37,280 Speaker 1: of them because I limited since the very start of 294 00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:46,480 Speaker 1: war within my own experience with this unit. These forces 295 00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:51,760 Speaker 1: have like a lot of time for constructing itself, like 296 00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:57,800 Speaker 1: our internal life not that much regulated by the higher command. 297 00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:03,840 Speaker 1: And also there is a sort of space of communication 298 00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:07,600 Speaker 1: with some commanders which are a little bit higher than us. 299 00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:13,760 Speaker 1: So we have like good people who our comrades, who 300 00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:17,320 Speaker 1: set this opportunity for us to get organized within this 301 00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:20,840 Speaker 1: frame of territorial defense. This was just our old friends 302 00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:28,760 Speaker 1: who decided to join some territorial defense structure as officers 303 00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:33,920 Speaker 1: already before uh this situation started to happen. Um So, 304 00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:38,920 Speaker 1: I think these people do really good job, and they 305 00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:46,240 Speaker 1: provide for us options to feel ourselves like comparatively free. 306 00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:50,680 Speaker 1: Of course, not in operational sense, because uh, like operational 307 00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:54,840 Speaker 1: frame is being set by the higher command and like 308 00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:59,439 Speaker 1: as one picture, one scheme, and in this aspect we 309 00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:03,800 Speaker 1: of course just the one of the elements of the 310 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:08,000 Speaker 1: general plan of the fighting. Uh they put in regime 311 00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:14,000 Speaker 1: invasion here. Um so, I mean, yes, as a unit 312 00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:18,840 Speaker 1: we are governed by the military command, but this is 313 00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:24,880 Speaker 1: really rarely that we see anyone apart anyone of some 314 00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:29,840 Speaker 1: officers or I don't know, generals or somebody else from 315 00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:36,240 Speaker 1: above the military hierarchy. We here now occupied with the training, 316 00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:42,320 Speaker 1: with the organizational constructing and with like improving our internal life, 317 00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:57,000 Speaker 1: not being like really orchestrated by any military military hierarchy. People. Um, 318 00:23:57,040 --> 00:24:00,840 Speaker 1: so what about internal structure. It is still supposed to 319 00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:07,400 Speaker 1: be organized on the traditional army scheme, So every section 320 00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:12,320 Speaker 1: has a commander, unit in general has a commander. And 321 00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:14,919 Speaker 1: this is not an elected people. This is not like 322 00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:21,480 Speaker 1: really controlled from from below people. Um. Maybe unfortunately or 323 00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:24,000 Speaker 1: maybe this is necessary in the current situation. This is 324 00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:28,240 Speaker 1: really hard to estimate to evaluate at the moment. Uh. 325 00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:32,120 Speaker 1: In this manner, our internal structure in sense of like 326 00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:36,840 Speaker 1: military structure is more or less traditional for the territorial defense. 327 00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:41,359 Speaker 1: At the same time, of course, we have more democratic 328 00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:47,639 Speaker 1: internal culture. In general territorial defenses people mostly organized on 329 00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:52,760 Speaker 1: local basis and also out of volunteers. So people who 330 00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:56,560 Speaker 1: came here are on their good will and not on 331 00:24:56,720 --> 00:25:00,919 Speaker 1: some constrict conscription or some contract which gives you a 332 00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:05,640 Speaker 1: certain money or privileges. So because of this, you already 333 00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:10,240 Speaker 1: supposed to be somehow more free, uh and more up 334 00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:14,040 Speaker 1: to express your opinions UM and so on. And of 335 00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:22,000 Speaker 1: course we as somehow UM leftist affiliated anarchist unit. Of 336 00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:28,760 Speaker 1: course we encourage the internal discussion. Everyone including all the 337 00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:35,760 Speaker 1: commanders inside our regiment are subjects to critics and discussion UM, 338 00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:42,040 Speaker 1: even though maybe final words in the operational questions are 339 00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:45,760 Speaker 1: up to these people UH. And also it's important that 340 00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:50,200 Speaker 1: we maintain a total political autonomy, in sense that all 341 00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:54,440 Speaker 1: the groups and individuals who constructs, who construct the unit 342 00:25:55,480 --> 00:26:00,520 Speaker 1: we are part of, they like absolutely free to express 343 00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:08,640 Speaker 1: their analysis, political analysis, and conceptual conceptualization of both these 344 00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:14,400 Speaker 1: events and our participation in them, according to their like analysis, 345 00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:18,639 Speaker 1: their attitude, and so on. I also asked what it 346 00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:21,320 Speaker 1: was like to fight ostensibly on the same side as 347 00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:24,600 Speaker 1: neo Nazi elements like ASOF. While Iliah and his unit 348 00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:27,000 Speaker 1: are not anywhere close to the as OFF battalion, I 349 00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:28,919 Speaker 1: wanted to know how he and his comrades dealt with 350 00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:31,480 Speaker 1: the weird reality of being in the same broadside as 351 00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:34,119 Speaker 1: people they might have battled in the street. At one point, 352 00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:37,800 Speaker 1: I would say that before war, of course, there was 353 00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:43,760 Speaker 1: a lot of tensions between UH fascists and US, not 354 00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:47,320 Speaker 1: directly with us OFF, because as OF is um like 355 00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:50,160 Speaker 1: military unit. Like this is not the guys you meet 356 00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:53,239 Speaker 1: and fight in the streets, but of course there is 357 00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:57,520 Speaker 1: like they tried to set like their own how to say, mafia, 358 00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:02,320 Speaker 1: political empire I would call it, or mafia like they 359 00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:08,400 Speaker 1: had some businesses, some criminal stuff, some patronage from the 360 00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:15,240 Speaker 1: Interior Ministry uh and also very different how to say, 361 00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:19,160 Speaker 1: far right groups which the leaders of so called as 362 00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:24,560 Speaker 1: of movement, which is much broader than as of Battalion itself, 363 00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:30,760 Speaker 1: they tried to utilized and instrumentalized to reach their own goals. 364 00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:34,520 Speaker 1: And with some of these groups, so of course we 365 00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:39,480 Speaker 1: had like just street fights for example, the elements closed 366 00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:42,600 Speaker 1: to this as of movement, they try to influence a 367 00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:47,840 Speaker 1: lot the Belarusian diaspora, like a position of diaspora in Kiev. 368 00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:54,639 Speaker 1: For example, in the one year anniversary of the protests 369 00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:59,640 Speaker 1: of twenty twenty in Belarus, there were there was fight 370 00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:04,359 Speaker 1: in Kiev between anarchists who came to participate in demonstrations 371 00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:10,000 Speaker 1: in this demonstration and the Nazis who attacked them in 372 00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:15,560 Speaker 1: like aiming to somehow push them out from the Belarusian 373 00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:20,560 Speaker 1: movement to influence it in their own way. Like also 374 00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:25,680 Speaker 1: just usual street confrontation also took place. All this time 375 00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:30,639 Speaker 1: there is quite visible and active Antifa movement in Kiev 376 00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:37,080 Speaker 1: which confronted Nazis on the streets UH and blocked sometimes 377 00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:42,440 Speaker 1: uh UM several of their like initiatives and so on. 378 00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:48,680 Speaker 1: And also of course informational and propaganda struggle was held 379 00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:52,920 Speaker 1: by us by us UH during all this time, since 380 00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:56,120 Speaker 1: my then and of course before as well. About the 381 00:28:56,200 --> 00:29:01,600 Speaker 1: current military situation, like, of course we are now actually 382 00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:05,000 Speaker 1: part of one army with the right sector as of 383 00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:08,280 Speaker 1: and so on. People, we are under the same military 384 00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:13,120 Speaker 1: command UH, and if we will be tasked to fight 385 00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:16,080 Speaker 1: in the same place the same enemy, we will be 386 00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:22,360 Speaker 1: actually like the same UM like part of the barricade. 387 00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:28,160 Speaker 1: But this situation we need to deal with. Like there 388 00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:33,400 Speaker 1: are different opinions amongst our comrades, and here about as 389 00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:37,600 Speaker 1: off and all the parietists, they differs from that they 390 00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:41,520 Speaker 1: are actually our enemies like both now and also in 391 00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:45,840 Speaker 1: any future Ukraine, in any future scenario. Because these people 392 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:51,000 Speaker 1: promote like quite obviously absolutely opposite political and social goals, 393 00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:57,440 Speaker 1: then we UM other people say that another like other 394 00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:02,520 Speaker 1: people say that now there how to say, general deadly 395 00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:07,239 Speaker 1: threat we are facing and we should fight regardless of 396 00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:10,440 Speaker 1: left and right and something like this to fight the 397 00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:14,880 Speaker 1: imperialist invasion. But I personally me I do not support 398 00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:19,840 Speaker 1: this second assumption and position. I see this quite not 399 00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:24,600 Speaker 1: really politically smart at my opinion. But what we here 400 00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:27,760 Speaker 1: can agree on is that if we want to confront 401 00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:33,720 Speaker 1: uh Nazis UH and far right parts of the Ukrainian 402 00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:37,880 Speaker 1: political and also military spectrum, then we need to develop 403 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:44,240 Speaker 1: our own strong structure, our own strong actor UH. And 404 00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:47,960 Speaker 1: also this um somehow connected with the question about p 405 00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:50,959 Speaker 1: R you mentioned that like we need our own pr, 406 00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:55,440 Speaker 1: our own publicity and media work, and also our first 407 00:30:55,480 --> 00:31:00,200 Speaker 1: of all, our own conceptions and ideological blueprints which we 408 00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:07,160 Speaker 1: can um suggest to Ukrainian society and present both inside 409 00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:11,280 Speaker 1: Ukraine and abroad. And this is the work, this is 410 00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:15,920 Speaker 1: the challenge and duty which we need to fulfill and 411 00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:21,040 Speaker 1: hopefully like not hopefully, but actually we are working on 412 00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:26,000 Speaker 1: this already now. So if you want to combat us 413 00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:31,360 Speaker 1: off now is UH not the time maybe to accuse 414 00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:34,920 Speaker 1: them UH in some public statements, but this is time 415 00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:40,000 Speaker 1: to develop alternative structure which will be able to really 416 00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:59,800 Speaker 1: confront this reactionary currence. What it could happen here a podcast. 417 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:04,480 Speaker 1: Have heard me introduce like probably wow, probably like seventy 418 00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:08,680 Speaker 1: or eighty times by now. But yeah, you you have 419 00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:11,200 Speaker 1: heard me introduce this podcast enough times. You probably know 420 00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:13,400 Speaker 1: what it's about. If you don't, it's about things following 421 00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:16,600 Speaker 1: apart and then putting it back together again. And today 422 00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:19,560 Speaker 1: we are doing a historical things trying to go back 423 00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:23,400 Speaker 1: together and then fell apart again episodes And with me, 424 00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:27,600 Speaker 1: I'm your host Christopher Wong, and with me is Nicholas Scott, 425 00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:30,160 Speaker 1: who is a PhD candidate in Latin American history at 426 00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:33,200 Speaker 1: u v A. Nicholas, Welcome to the show. Thank you 427 00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:35,440 Speaker 1: so much for having me. It's a pleasure to be here. Yeah, 428 00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:38,640 Speaker 1: I'm excited. I'm excited to have you. And today we're 429 00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:42,600 Speaker 1: gonna be talking about something that we've we've mentioned before 430 00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:45,480 Speaker 1: on a few other episodes that that we've done about 431 00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:48,600 Speaker 1: Chile and about the all end a period. But I 432 00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:51,040 Speaker 1: think like, well, we definitely have not given enough attention 433 00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:55,040 Speaker 1: and I think gets less attention in the sort of 434 00:32:56,080 --> 00:33:00,040 Speaker 1: mainstream like left analysis of what happened to Allende and 435 00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:01,720 Speaker 1: what was going on in that period, which is the 436 00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:05,840 Speaker 1: cordonas and Nick has written about this a lot and 437 00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:10,800 Speaker 1: is also writing more about this and is doing research. Actually, 438 00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:12,360 Speaker 1: do do you do you care? Do you mind if 439 00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:15,680 Speaker 1: I mentioned that you're in chi leading research right now? No, totally. Um, 440 00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:18,040 Speaker 1: you know that's where I am. I'm here two years 441 00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:20,280 Speaker 1: after the pandemic took me away. I found being able 442 00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:24,800 Speaker 1: to come back and resume my research. Yeah. And so, Nicholas, 443 00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:26,479 Speaker 1: I think in your work. The thing that I think 444 00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:29,760 Speaker 1: is is different about it than a lot of the 445 00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:34,600 Speaker 1: the stuff that you'll read about I end in about 446 00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:38,880 Speaker 1: the Cordonats is the sort of historicization of it. And 447 00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:41,160 Speaker 1: so I won I was wondering if if we can 448 00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:44,960 Speaker 1: start back, I guess in the sixties and talk a 449 00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:47,840 Speaker 1: bit about the sort of political situation that gets you 450 00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:52,440 Speaker 1: to this sort of revolutionary moment. Yeah, that's great. I mean, 451 00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:55,000 Speaker 1: I think that it's important that we start at an 452 00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:59,600 Speaker 1: earlier moment to really understand how the Cordonas emerge as 453 00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:04,240 Speaker 1: a speci cific um culture, a specific urban space across 454 00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:07,520 Speaker 1: the city of Santiago. Uh. You know, the English translation 455 00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:11,120 Speaker 1: of the Cordons industrialist would essentially just be industrial belts. 456 00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:13,360 Speaker 1: So you can think of these as sort of sectors 457 00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:16,240 Speaker 1: of the city where the majority of sort of heavy 458 00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:20,080 Speaker 1: industry had been based UM, and then these specters themselves 459 00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:23,840 Speaker 1: were sort of roomnants of the nineteenth century UH, specifically 460 00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:27,279 Speaker 1: the railroad lines that would UH sort of the main 461 00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:31,680 Speaker 1: thoroughfares into the city of Santiago from the countryside. UM. 462 00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:33,800 Speaker 1: You know, over the course of the early twentieth century, 463 00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:37,520 Speaker 1: as you have the development of industry in in Chile 464 00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:40,440 Speaker 1: and in Santiago specifically, these are the same areas then 465 00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:43,239 Speaker 1: where these factories are are being developed because you have 466 00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:46,360 Speaker 1: pre existing sort of transportation networks that they're able to 467 00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:49,360 Speaker 1: take advantage of. UM. The problem is is that you know, 468 00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:53,680 Speaker 1: industrialization happens sort of in fits and starts in the 469 00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:57,440 Speaker 1: history of Chile UH. And the other sort of problem 470 00:34:57,560 --> 00:35:01,040 Speaker 1: is the problem of transportation itself. So, for example, in 471 00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:04,720 Speaker 1: the nineteen thirties, there's an urban plan that gets developed 472 00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:09,840 Speaker 1: for Santiago Centro or the central part of Santiago, and 473 00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:12,920 Speaker 1: they bring in an Austrian urban planner, Carl Bruner, to 474 00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:17,000 Speaker 1: help with this UH. And while Carl Bruner essentially tries 475 00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:21,839 Speaker 1: to do for Santiago UM what Hausman did for France, right, 476 00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:27,360 Speaker 1: widen boulevards make the city more accessible to new forms 477 00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:31,720 Speaker 1: of transportation, right, ideally the car buses, things of that nature. 478 00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:35,640 Speaker 1: The problem is is that he limited his work and 479 00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:38,640 Speaker 1: his studies, as I said, just to the center of 480 00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:42,320 Speaker 1: Santiago itself. Uh. The other problem is that once Brunner 481 00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:46,319 Speaker 1: leaves Santiago, the plan that's actually put into effect um 482 00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:48,920 Speaker 1: isn't necessarily all of his plan. It was sort of 483 00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:52,480 Speaker 1: a patchwork that legislators um sort of pick and choose 484 00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:55,719 Speaker 1: from when they put this plan into effect. And so 485 00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:59,040 Speaker 1: in between the thirties and the nineteen sixties, you know, 486 00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:02,239 Speaker 1: a lot has had Uh. Primarily you have the sort 487 00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:07,320 Speaker 1: of twin processes of industrialization, sort of rapid industrialization that's 488 00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:09,799 Speaker 1: taking place, which you also have this other process, which 489 00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:13,200 Speaker 1: is rural migration, sort of internal migration. And this isn't 490 00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:16,200 Speaker 1: a process that's limited to just Chile, right, this is 491 00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:20,320 Speaker 1: a region wide process that's happening all across Latin America. 492 00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:23,560 Speaker 1: And you're having sort of two factors that play in 493 00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:27,719 Speaker 1: this viggration. Right. You're having the push factor from the countryside, right, 494 00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:31,520 Speaker 1: the lack of opportunity, lack of jobs, lack of secure 495 00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:35,120 Speaker 1: employments um from the countryside. And then you're also having 496 00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:38,160 Speaker 1: the poll factor, which is you know, these industries that 497 00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:40,960 Speaker 1: are springing up in the city, as well as the 498 00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:44,560 Speaker 1: sort of infrastructure that a city would afford relative to 499 00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:48,160 Speaker 1: the countryside. UH. And these two processes sort of come 500 00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:51,560 Speaker 1: to a head in the nineteen fifties UM in Chile, 501 00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:54,080 Speaker 1: and by the end of the nineteen fifties UH, it's 502 00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:58,799 Speaker 1: clear to a growing set of people UM, including jan Paiochia, 503 00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:02,640 Speaker 1: who is an architect, UM, that something needs to be done. 504 00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:05,480 Speaker 1: There needs to be a new urban plan for the 505 00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:09,440 Speaker 1: city of Santiago UH. And this urban plan what they 506 00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:11,520 Speaker 1: try to do is it's the first time that there's 507 00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:15,080 Speaker 1: a sort of intercommunal which communal in this sense would 508 00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:18,560 Speaker 1: be a rough translation to municipality UM in English. So 509 00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:21,680 Speaker 1: it's really the first sort of inter municipal urban plan 510 00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:25,200 Speaker 1: that tries to link networks together. And this is actually 511 00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:30,360 Speaker 1: the first time that this word corbone industrial appears in 512 00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:34,200 Speaker 1: like an official government document. Right. That's the first time UM, 513 00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:38,680 Speaker 1: that urban planners themselves are thinking about zones of the 514 00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:42,320 Speaker 1: city that are going to be specifically for industry. And 515 00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:45,160 Speaker 1: so the idea is that they want to move a 516 00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:47,160 Speaker 1: lot of the industry that has sprung up in those 517 00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:51,040 Speaker 1: intervening years from the early twentieth century that was located 518 00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:52,960 Speaker 1: more in the center of the city. They want to 519 00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:54,759 Speaker 1: move it out of the center of the city, you know, 520 00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:58,719 Speaker 1: largely for things of pollution, safety, all of the things 521 00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:01,319 Speaker 1: that go along with heavy indust street. They want it 522 00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:04,319 Speaker 1: further on the periphery. Uh. And so that's part of 523 00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:09,160 Speaker 1: this urban plan that essentially tries to zone basically zone 524 00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:13,719 Speaker 1: um these uh, these sectors. And so that's really where 525 00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:16,440 Speaker 1: my disportation starts. That's where my research really sort of starts. 526 00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:20,880 Speaker 1: The stories and um, the late nineteen fifties, early nineteen sixties, 527 00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:23,520 Speaker 1: when these urban plans are taking effect. And so what 528 00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:26,719 Speaker 1: I'm interested in then is, you know, how did the 529 00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:31,360 Speaker 1: creation of these specific sectors of the city as industrial zones, 530 00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:34,480 Speaker 1: how did they then give rise to an urban culture 531 00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:38,839 Speaker 1: that will then manifest itself in a very revolutionary moment 532 00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:41,920 Speaker 1: once end comes to power. Yeah, And I think that 533 00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:45,959 Speaker 1: that's an interesting way to look at it because I think, 534 00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:50,440 Speaker 1: you know, because the process of sort of industry moving 535 00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:53,040 Speaker 1: from the center of the urban core outwards is something 536 00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:57,720 Speaker 1: that happens it really across the world, but mostly after 537 00:38:57,760 --> 00:38:59,759 Speaker 1: that period, and that that was one of the one 538 00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:01,840 Speaker 1: of the things that struck me about it. That's interesting. 539 00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:04,239 Speaker 1: I want to ask you about which is so to 540 00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:07,520 Speaker 1: what extent is this Is this a different process than 541 00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:11,560 Speaker 1: the kind of like, you know, the kind of suburbanization 542 00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:14,160 Speaker 1: that you see of of industry in the US, for example, 543 00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:18,160 Speaker 1: in like the nineteen eighties, or is it closer to well, 544 00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:19,680 Speaker 1: you know, I've talked I've talked about this, I guess 545 00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:21,759 Speaker 1: on the show in the Chinese context to where you 546 00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:26,359 Speaker 1: have i mean mostly pollution stuff has seen like some 547 00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:29,320 Speaker 1: industry sort of like I mean just literally getting pushed 548 00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:33,080 Speaker 1: into into rural areas. Is it is it like is 549 00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:35,880 Speaker 1: it like those same kind of impulses or is there 550 00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:40,560 Speaker 1: a different kind of um like relation, I mean, like 551 00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:42,720 Speaker 1: how far out of the city, Like is this stuff 552 00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:45,880 Speaker 1: like getting pushed to That's a great question, It's a 553 00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:49,400 Speaker 1: wonderful question. Um. And you know it is actually important. 554 00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:51,560 Speaker 1: This is important to remember that at this time the 555 00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:54,399 Speaker 1: city of Santiago, um, you know, just outside the city 556 00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:57,560 Speaker 1: of Santiago is is still largely rural. Right where where 557 00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:00,320 Speaker 1: the first cordon will emerge on the southwestern side of 558 00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:05,480 Speaker 1: the city is still a largely rural part of the 559 00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:08,440 Speaker 1: city itself. Uh. And so it is very similar to 560 00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:10,880 Speaker 1: the dynamics that you're describing, and that it is pushing 561 00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:14,759 Speaker 1: you know, away from where people are living, right, two 562 00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:18,719 Speaker 1: more rural places where there is more land both to build, right, 563 00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:21,399 Speaker 1: So there is the availability of space, but there's also 564 00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:25,759 Speaker 1: less people living in that space. So from the planner's perspective, 565 00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:29,600 Speaker 1: it's considered better because the sort of you know, chemical 566 00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:32,040 Speaker 1: and heavy metal runoffs from a lot of the metal 567 00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:37,520 Speaker 1: working factories, all of these things and the pollution from smokestacks, etcetera, um, 568 00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:42,000 Speaker 1: you know, are less harmful. The problem then becomes, however, Um, 569 00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:45,239 Speaker 1: the as I mentioned the rural migration and people that 570 00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:48,400 Speaker 1: are migrating to the city. You know, there's not space 571 00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:52,040 Speaker 1: in the center of the city for these people to live, right, 572 00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:55,960 Speaker 1: so they're moving into the same areas. So in some senses, 573 00:40:56,160 --> 00:40:59,920 Speaker 1: the sort of historical dynamics of the region are undercut 574 00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:02,720 Speaker 1: the sort of success of the planners when it comes 575 00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:07,879 Speaker 1: to making these zones away from the city itself. Um. 576 00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:09,600 Speaker 1: And I guess I guess that that would be something 577 00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:12,320 Speaker 1: also that that's interesting about this, which is that I 578 00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:14,920 Speaker 1: think because like you know, the sort of like decentralization 579 00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:17,840 Speaker 1: of industry and that the push into rural areas, I 580 00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:20,560 Speaker 1: think largely did not produce a kind of like radical 581 00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:23,080 Speaker 1: working class culture. But but but it seems like you 582 00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:25,560 Speaker 1: have this kind of veiling factor here, which is that 583 00:41:26,719 --> 00:41:29,759 Speaker 1: you have a bunch of people who are like who 584 00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:32,279 Speaker 1: are who are coming into industrial work for the first 585 00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:34,759 Speaker 1: time out of the countryside, which tends to be a 586 00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:37,759 Speaker 1: very radical faction. Like is that one of the things 587 00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:40,000 Speaker 1: that gives you this sort of radical culture instead of 588 00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:42,719 Speaker 1: the kind of like total disintecreation of the class that 589 00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:46,400 Speaker 1: you see in the sort of later versions of this. 590 00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:48,520 Speaker 1: This is such a beautiful question, and this this question 591 00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:51,960 Speaker 1: really lays the heart of my research. So if we 592 00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:53,840 Speaker 1: scope out just for a bit and think about this 593 00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:58,480 Speaker 1: historiographically in Chile, there is a vein of historiography that 594 00:41:58,560 --> 00:42:01,960 Speaker 1: is very concerned with these rural migrants, which once they 595 00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:04,920 Speaker 1: arrive in the city are referred to as pobladores right 596 00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:07,640 Speaker 1: which we can roughly translate this sort of urban poor, 597 00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:12,360 Speaker 1: right um. And they're considered a sort of capital s 598 00:42:12,520 --> 00:42:16,120 Speaker 1: social subject that is distinct from a worker or from 599 00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:19,680 Speaker 1: a working class um, from a sociological point of view, 600 00:42:20,120 --> 00:42:24,719 Speaker 1: right um. And the reason this is because a lot 601 00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:27,920 Speaker 1: of them. Um. While they are workers, you know, they 602 00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:31,440 Speaker 1: are part of the working class. Functionally, they're sort of 603 00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:34,480 Speaker 1: social concern and the social movement that is bound up 604 00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:37,239 Speaker 1: or known as the sort of peblad or movement, is 605 00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:40,399 Speaker 1: a movement for housing right. Because they are arriving at 606 00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:44,320 Speaker 1: these sort of vacant parts of the city. Um, the 607 00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:46,640 Speaker 1: they bring with them the sort of as you mentioned, 608 00:42:46,640 --> 00:42:50,880 Speaker 1: their own histories of struggle from the countryside, of which 609 00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:55,040 Speaker 1: the sort of main tactic is the toma or seizure right. 610 00:42:55,080 --> 00:42:56,920 Speaker 1: And so what they will do when they arrive in 611 00:42:57,000 --> 00:42:59,839 Speaker 1: these places of land is that they will seize these 612 00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:04,279 Speaker 1: lots and they will erect a structure on it. In 613 00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:06,560 Speaker 1: doing so, then they would use that to stake a 614 00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:10,120 Speaker 1: claim to as a claim of property rights right, as 615 00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:12,840 Speaker 1: a claim for their own proper home and everything that 616 00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:20,279 Speaker 1: would go with it within um, within a city, infrastructure right, utilities, sewage, etcetera. Um, 617 00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:22,359 Speaker 1: that's what they would leverage them as a claim for that. 618 00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:26,560 Speaker 1: And so my project is essentially trying to break down 619 00:43:26,960 --> 00:43:30,360 Speaker 1: this analytic barrier that has separated the popelador from the 620 00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:34,600 Speaker 1: worker in the historiography, specifically in the historiography of things 621 00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:38,319 Speaker 1: like the Cortonas and the popular Unity years during all 622 00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:41,239 Speaker 1: end because as I mentioned, many of these people once 623 00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:44,279 Speaker 1: they're moving to the cities and you know, moving into 624 00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:48,879 Speaker 1: what would be referred to as either complimentos or potionists. Uh, 625 00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:51,120 Speaker 1: you know, they're looking for work, and they're finding work 626 00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:54,239 Speaker 1: at a lot of these factories that are nearby where 627 00:43:54,239 --> 00:43:57,960 Speaker 1: they're moving. Now. In doing so, however, they're coming into 628 00:43:58,200 --> 00:44:02,200 Speaker 1: contact they're sort of mixing. Wi if the older generation 629 00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:06,359 Speaker 1: of migrants that migrated from the north of Chile, right 630 00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:09,240 Speaker 1: from the mining sector in the north of Chile following 631 00:44:09,239 --> 00:44:12,000 Speaker 1: the Great Depression, which is the sort of historical birth 632 00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:16,480 Speaker 1: of the labor movement in Chile, the nitrates sector um 633 00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:19,239 Speaker 1: in the far north of cher Chile, which, following the 634 00:44:19,239 --> 00:44:23,200 Speaker 1: development of sort of synthetic forms of explosives, nitrates are 635 00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:27,320 Speaker 1: not saltpeter specifically, is not as high in demand anymore 636 00:44:27,680 --> 00:44:30,000 Speaker 1: since you have a lot of people migrating to the 637 00:44:30,040 --> 00:44:32,880 Speaker 1: city to begin working in the industries there, right. So 638 00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:36,319 Speaker 1: those sort of older working class who also have their 639 00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:40,320 Speaker 1: own sort of history of struggle, history of tactics, etcetera, 640 00:44:40,840 --> 00:44:45,720 Speaker 1: and this newer form of worker there right are mixing 641 00:44:45,800 --> 00:44:48,880 Speaker 1: and they're sort of mixing in these areas in specific 642 00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:52,320 Speaker 1: and that, uh, to me, is why it's so important 643 00:44:52,360 --> 00:44:55,160 Speaker 1: to think about the Cordons is more than just an 644 00:44:55,239 --> 00:44:59,160 Speaker 1: organization that emerges in the early nineteen seventies and really 645 00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:02,040 Speaker 1: think about him a a space, as a geographic space 646 00:45:02,560 --> 00:45:07,440 Speaker 1: that developed their own unique forms of local culture informed 647 00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:12,600 Speaker 1: by these larger, more macro historical processes. Yeah. That that 648 00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:16,360 Speaker 1: that that seems like a much more I don't know 649 00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:18,200 Speaker 1: if I don't know if productive is the right word, 650 00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:21,000 Speaker 1: though it is, but I think, yeah, I think that 651 00:45:21,120 --> 00:45:25,400 Speaker 1: is a better way of thinking about it than what 652 00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:29,080 Speaker 1: you usually see, because yeah, that that kind of the 653 00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:32,000 Speaker 1: fact that, Yeah, the fact that you have multiple different 654 00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:36,239 Speaker 1: essentially like you have you have multiple difference is like 655 00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:39,600 Speaker 1: sociological classes mixing. You have, you have their tactics sort 656 00:45:39,640 --> 00:45:44,120 Speaker 1: of fusing, and that developing its own culture. That's that's distinct, 657 00:45:44,239 --> 00:45:48,800 Speaker 1: I think from a lot of the you know, because 658 00:45:49,000 --> 00:45:50,520 Speaker 1: this this this is a business a period of time 659 00:45:50,560 --> 00:45:52,920 Speaker 1: like the late nineteen sixies, early seventies is like the 660 00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:56,319 Speaker 1: golden age of the factory occupation. And I think, you know, 661 00:45:56,320 --> 00:45:59,720 Speaker 1: I think you can draw similarities between that in between 662 00:45:59,719 --> 00:46:03,759 Speaker 1: the don'tice, but I think, I don't know. I mean, 663 00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:06,360 Speaker 1: it'll is a version of this that that that I 664 00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:08,680 Speaker 1: know the best, and that one, I guess sort of 665 00:46:08,719 --> 00:46:10,640 Speaker 1: also has a simpilar gynamic of you get you get 666 00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:13,000 Speaker 1: a bunch of that, you have this mixing of of 667 00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:15,640 Speaker 1: sort of the old urban working class, but that you 668 00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:18,240 Speaker 1: have a bunch of um you have this huge labor 669 00:46:18,239 --> 00:46:20,799 Speaker 1: migration from from the south, from the rural areas, that 670 00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:22,880 Speaker 1: that mixes in there. And I'm wondering, I guess, like 671 00:46:24,640 --> 00:46:26,920 Speaker 1: when when you talk about sort of the culture of this, 672 00:46:27,200 --> 00:46:30,320 Speaker 1: how how much of that is something that you think 673 00:46:31,280 --> 00:46:36,840 Speaker 1: is like a distinct product of like this exact configuration 674 00:46:37,080 --> 00:46:40,080 Speaker 1: of of so social class is hitting each other, and 675 00:46:40,080 --> 00:46:44,480 Speaker 1: to what extent it's kind of like a process that 676 00:46:44,520 --> 00:46:47,400 Speaker 1: we've that you find in other places where you have 677 00:46:49,160 --> 00:46:52,480 Speaker 1: you have these sort of market worker like first generation 678 00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:57,640 Speaker 1: market worker basis hitting these sort of older industrial working classes. Yeah. No, 679 00:46:57,719 --> 00:46:59,320 Speaker 1: I think that your spot on, right. I think that 680 00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:03,400 Speaker 1: this is um a larger global history. Right, this is 681 00:47:03,400 --> 00:47:05,400 Speaker 1: a moment in which you are having a lot of 682 00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:10,000 Speaker 1: migration from countryside into the city worldwide. Right, you have 683 00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:12,720 Speaker 1: a lot of French intellectuals at this moment thinking about 684 00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:14,640 Speaker 1: sort of what does it mean that the city is 685 00:47:14,719 --> 00:47:18,840 Speaker 1: perhaps becoming the new focus, the sort of new locusts 686 00:47:18,880 --> 00:47:21,480 Speaker 1: of social movements and social actions. You know, what does 687 00:47:21,520 --> 00:47:26,080 Speaker 1: it mean that the city is dominant over the countryside? Um? 688 00:47:26,160 --> 00:47:28,440 Speaker 1: And things like that. But I think it is different, 689 00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:33,160 Speaker 1: or not necessarily different, but perhaps unique in the Chilean case, um, 690 00:47:33,400 --> 00:47:38,000 Speaker 1: is that this is a you know, you have a 691 00:47:38,120 --> 00:47:42,399 Speaker 1: culture in Chile that is known world over for its 692 00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:45,840 Speaker 1: political culture. Right, everyone at this moment was thinking and 693 00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:50,040 Speaker 1: talking politically, uh, and talking about big you know, grand 694 00:47:50,120 --> 00:47:54,400 Speaker 1: ideas of politics, not just you know, sort of everyday politics, 695 00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:57,719 Speaker 1: but how did everyday politics inform these larger sort of 696 00:47:57,760 --> 00:48:01,080 Speaker 1: social struggles. Right. This is still a moment when socialism 697 00:48:01,080 --> 00:48:04,399 Speaker 1: is on the table, right, Um. And so you have 698 00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:06,880 Speaker 1: you know, not that this is different than other places 699 00:48:06,960 --> 00:48:09,440 Speaker 1: in the world. Clearly, as you mentioned, in Italy, socialism 700 00:48:09,480 --> 00:48:11,839 Speaker 1: is very much still on the table. Communism is very 701 00:48:11,880 --> 00:48:14,960 Speaker 1: much still on the table there as well, um. But 702 00:48:15,080 --> 00:48:18,879 Speaker 1: in Chile, what is different is that there is this 703 00:48:18,920 --> 00:48:23,640 Speaker 1: idea that one could perhaps legislate socialism, right, or that 704 00:48:23,680 --> 00:48:27,520 Speaker 1: one could use the means of democracy to achieve socialism. Right. 705 00:48:27,560 --> 00:48:30,640 Speaker 1: That's what's going to make the Illende government so unique 706 00:48:31,080 --> 00:48:34,520 Speaker 1: in this moment um. But what also makes the courtons 707 00:48:34,640 --> 00:48:38,759 Speaker 1: unique is this sort of relationship between social space and 708 00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:42,120 Speaker 1: physical space in the city. So, for example, the very 709 00:48:42,160 --> 00:48:45,520 Speaker 1: first court zone that emerges in nineteen two Studios Mai 710 00:48:45,560 --> 00:48:48,400 Speaker 1: Poo as I mentioned earlier on the southwest of the city, 711 00:48:48,440 --> 00:48:51,200 Speaker 1: that one, as I mentioned, because it had such close 712 00:48:51,239 --> 00:48:55,400 Speaker 1: contact with the rural sector on that edge, had a 713 00:48:55,480 --> 00:49:00,439 Speaker 1: lot more solidarity between rural laborers and factory laborers, such 714 00:49:00,480 --> 00:49:03,959 Speaker 1: that by nineteen seventy three you have factory labors going 715 00:49:04,040 --> 00:49:08,719 Speaker 1: out of their factory and helping world labors sees their 716 00:49:08,719 --> 00:49:13,560 Speaker 1: properties and hold their properties um away from the landowners 717 00:49:13,640 --> 00:49:17,440 Speaker 1: essentially right and claiming sort of a redistributive um you 718 00:49:17,480 --> 00:49:19,960 Speaker 1: know land for those who work at type of strategy. 719 00:49:20,360 --> 00:49:23,920 Speaker 1: This is say, different from the cordon that my dissertation 720 00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:27,360 Speaker 1: is focused on Facuna Mcana, which, as as I mentioned, 721 00:49:27,360 --> 00:49:32,239 Speaker 1: a much larger segment of popolodors living nearby it, right uh. 722 00:49:32,280 --> 00:49:35,040 Speaker 1: And so you have a much larger solidarity between the 723 00:49:35,080 --> 00:49:38,680 Speaker 1: popolodors and between factory workers. And what makes that even 724 00:49:38,719 --> 00:49:40,920 Speaker 1: more unique in this case is the role of the 725 00:49:40,960 --> 00:49:43,640 Speaker 1: Catholic Church, and this is really one of the sort 726 00:49:43,680 --> 00:49:46,239 Speaker 1: of new things that my dissertation is trying to do 727 00:49:47,239 --> 00:49:50,759 Speaker 1: is what is the role of the Catholic Church here. So, 728 00:49:50,880 --> 00:49:54,560 Speaker 1: for example, of the Catholic Church historically within the and 729 00:49:54,680 --> 00:49:58,160 Speaker 1: within the historiography as well, UM has always been associated 730 00:49:58,160 --> 00:50:01,160 Speaker 1: with the popelodoor movement, right because of this sort of 731 00:50:01,239 --> 00:50:04,680 Speaker 1: connection to the countryside, because of the churches sort of 732 00:50:05,840 --> 00:50:09,480 Speaker 1: you know, missionary kind of work and going out into 733 00:50:09,520 --> 00:50:13,480 Speaker 1: the population, you know, poorer populations, especially following Vatican to 734 00:50:14,400 --> 00:50:16,960 Speaker 1: UM that in which they begin to sort of have 735 00:50:17,040 --> 00:50:21,399 Speaker 1: more outreach into the poor sectors. UM. But it's never 736 00:50:21,480 --> 00:50:25,920 Speaker 1: really seen or rather very few scholars have thought about 737 00:50:26,160 --> 00:50:29,319 Speaker 1: or looked at what does this mean then for those 738 00:50:29,360 --> 00:50:32,120 Speaker 1: individuals who may have lived in a position but who 739 00:50:32,160 --> 00:50:34,680 Speaker 1: worked in a factory. In other words, what was the 740 00:50:34,760 --> 00:50:39,080 Speaker 1: relationship between the sort of social pastoral message of the 741 00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:43,719 Speaker 1: church and the sort of socialism of a factory worker. Uh. 742 00:50:43,719 --> 00:50:45,799 Speaker 1: And in the case of the Aquamacina, there's actually very 743 00:50:45,800 --> 00:50:50,040 Speaker 1: strong links here. So specifically, the San Kayatano parish, which 744 00:50:50,080 --> 00:50:53,600 Speaker 1: is located just to the west of the Corvillone proper Um, 745 00:50:54,040 --> 00:50:58,640 Speaker 1: was was fundamental in helping some of the workers established 746 00:50:58,680 --> 00:51:01,680 Speaker 1: unions h and in the cordon. So, for example, the 747 00:51:01,719 --> 00:51:05,880 Speaker 1: Sumar Textile factory, which was functionally a city unto itself. 748 00:51:05,920 --> 00:51:10,600 Speaker 1: This this textile company had a series of different factories 749 00:51:10,640 --> 00:51:14,120 Speaker 1: within its property, so it had a cotton plant, had 750 00:51:14,160 --> 00:51:18,120 Speaker 1: a nylon plant, a silk plant that had a polyester plant, 751 00:51:18,480 --> 00:51:21,000 Speaker 1: and each of these different plants than each had their 752 00:51:21,040 --> 00:51:25,719 Speaker 1: own um unions. And in Chile, in the labor code 753 00:51:25,719 --> 00:51:28,440 Speaker 1: in Chile from the nineteen thirties, there were two different 754 00:51:28,440 --> 00:51:32,440 Speaker 1: types of unions per factory or per plant. You had 755 00:51:32,440 --> 00:51:34,640 Speaker 1: the industrial union, which we could think of as the 756 00:51:34,719 --> 00:51:39,120 Speaker 1: blue collar worker union, and then you had in platos union, 757 00:51:39,160 --> 00:51:42,760 Speaker 1: which we can think of as a more white collar union. 758 00:51:42,760 --> 00:51:44,920 Speaker 1: These would be the sort of professionals in the factory, 759 00:51:44,960 --> 00:51:48,759 Speaker 1: the sort of technicians, uh, the engineers, right, not so 760 00:51:48,840 --> 00:51:51,200 Speaker 1: much the manual labors, but everyone else in the factory 761 00:51:51,800 --> 00:51:54,200 Speaker 1: and in the case of sum A specifically the cotton 762 00:51:54,280 --> 00:51:57,919 Speaker 1: plant itself. Um in the late nineteen sixties, when they're 763 00:51:57,920 --> 00:52:00,759 Speaker 1: trying to found their union for the first time, they 764 00:52:00,760 --> 00:52:03,319 Speaker 1: don't have anywhere to go to find it, to to 765 00:52:03,440 --> 00:52:05,759 Speaker 1: found it, right, because they can't do it in the 766 00:52:05,760 --> 00:52:08,840 Speaker 1: factory itself, because management, the bosses will crack down on it. 767 00:52:09,400 --> 00:52:11,640 Speaker 1: They don't have their own local yet because they haven't 768 00:52:11,640 --> 00:52:14,319 Speaker 1: founded a union, and so what they ultimately do is 769 00:52:14,360 --> 00:52:17,239 Speaker 1: they reach out to the parish priest in San Kayatano, 770 00:52:18,120 --> 00:52:20,840 Speaker 1: who is you know, who offers them help and in 771 00:52:20,960 --> 00:52:23,560 Speaker 1: doing so offers them a space to hold their first 772 00:52:23,680 --> 00:52:26,560 Speaker 1: union vote. Uh. And that's actually how the Union of 773 00:52:26,600 --> 00:52:30,040 Speaker 1: Sumar gets founded. Sumar will go on to play a 774 00:52:30,080 --> 00:52:32,680 Speaker 1: major role both in the cordonus and then after the 775 00:52:32,680 --> 00:52:36,279 Speaker 1: Cordonus during the dictatorship. It's a it's a very um, 776 00:52:36,520 --> 00:52:40,680 Speaker 1: very important factory uh in this history. Um. But it's 777 00:52:40,719 --> 00:52:44,359 Speaker 1: often overlooked that, you know, the church played a very 778 00:52:44,400 --> 00:52:47,960 Speaker 1: fundamental role in the sort of larger history of the 779 00:52:47,960 --> 00:52:51,480 Speaker 1: working class formation of the Sumar workers. I mean, it 780 00:52:51,520 --> 00:52:52,920 Speaker 1: brings us to one of the things about this period 781 00:52:52,960 --> 00:52:56,400 Speaker 1: that's I guess becoming to be better understood. But I 782 00:52:56,400 --> 00:52:59,280 Speaker 1: think if you're a person who has not spent time 783 00:53:00,160 --> 00:53:02,799 Speaker 1: looking at this might look kind of weird, which is that, Yeah, 784 00:53:03,280 --> 00:53:05,640 Speaker 1: it's just that the Catholic Church in this period in 785 00:53:05,160 --> 00:53:09,560 Speaker 1: a in a lot of Latin America like takes especially 786 00:53:09,560 --> 00:53:12,399 Speaker 1: Adican Tubia like it. It takes this like very hard 787 00:53:12,520 --> 00:53:16,319 Speaker 1: left turn that yeah, I mean has all of these 788 00:53:16,360 --> 00:53:20,239 Speaker 1: causes that like you know, like you get like the 789 00:53:20,239 --> 00:53:21,880 Speaker 1: the Italian version of it, is like you get a 790 00:53:21,880 --> 00:53:24,840 Speaker 1: bunch of priests who are just like like like clergyman 791 00:53:24,920 --> 00:53:31,200 Speaker 1: literally doing kidnappings of like random government officials. And I think, yeah, 792 00:53:31,200 --> 00:53:42,279 Speaker 1: I guess in in in in this context, what what's 793 00:53:42,280 --> 00:53:44,880 Speaker 1: interesting to me, I guess is yeah, like how how much? Okay, So, 794 00:53:44,960 --> 00:53:48,879 Speaker 1: like what is the you're you're talking You're talking about 795 00:53:48,920 --> 00:53:53,719 Speaker 1: the sort of like the sort of pastoralism of this 796 00:53:53,960 --> 00:53:58,000 Speaker 1: the sort of like social gospel message. Is there is 797 00:53:58,040 --> 00:54:00,479 Speaker 1: there like a divide between the way the just working 798 00:54:00,480 --> 00:54:02,320 Speaker 1: in the city and the ways working in the countryside 799 00:54:02,360 --> 00:54:06,520 Speaker 1: or is it just sort of like it's all shifting 800 00:54:06,719 --> 00:54:11,160 Speaker 1: left but they're more the influence of the church is 801 00:54:11,280 --> 00:54:15,319 Speaker 1: larger in among sort of royal and natural people. That's 802 00:54:15,320 --> 00:54:17,719 Speaker 1: actually really good question. And this is actually where I'm 803 00:54:17,800 --> 00:54:21,319 Speaker 1: in the midst of sort of trying to figure this out. Specifically, UM. 804 00:54:21,600 --> 00:54:23,319 Speaker 1: For the past three weeks, I've actually been working in 805 00:54:23,360 --> 00:54:26,359 Speaker 1: the church archives here in Santiago, UM and so that's 806 00:54:26,400 --> 00:54:29,800 Speaker 1: actually the documents that I'm sort of sifting through as 807 00:54:29,840 --> 00:54:32,120 Speaker 1: as we speak. UM. And so one thing I can 808 00:54:32,120 --> 00:54:34,439 Speaker 1: say for certain as of now, what I've been able 809 00:54:34,480 --> 00:54:37,600 Speaker 1: to sort of uncover is that, you know, the Church 810 00:54:37,719 --> 00:54:41,160 Speaker 1: was not homogeneous, and it certainly wasn't monolithic, not in 811 00:54:41,280 --> 00:54:44,880 Speaker 1: Latin America and definitely not in Santiago. Uh, you know, 812 00:54:44,960 --> 00:54:48,319 Speaker 1: in the region itself. Following Vatican to you have the 813 00:54:48,360 --> 00:54:52,200 Speaker 1: Episcopal Conference of Latin America's second conference that takes place 814 00:54:52,239 --> 00:54:55,560 Speaker 1: in the nineteen sixties in Medallian and that's where the 815 00:54:55,600 --> 00:54:59,399 Speaker 1: sort of the idea of liberation theology is born. Right 816 00:54:59,520 --> 00:55:04,800 Speaker 1: falling Median then in Chile, the the Episcopal Conference of 817 00:55:04,880 --> 00:55:09,759 Speaker 1: Chile then is basically tasked with determining a way to 818 00:55:10,120 --> 00:55:13,359 Speaker 1: fit its own pastoralism, its own sort of pastoral plan 819 00:55:13,960 --> 00:55:17,680 Speaker 1: within these new structures that they are a party too, 820 00:55:17,719 --> 00:55:21,720 Speaker 1: because they are part of this larger conference in Latin 821 00:55:21,760 --> 00:55:24,799 Speaker 1: America itself. And so, you know, one thing that I 822 00:55:24,840 --> 00:55:27,120 Speaker 1: have uncovered in the documents is that this is very 823 00:55:27,200 --> 00:55:31,120 Speaker 1: much you begin to see a divide amongst the bishops, 824 00:55:31,160 --> 00:55:36,040 Speaker 1: amongst the church hierarchy here that um are very you know, 825 00:55:36,680 --> 00:55:40,120 Speaker 1: interested in following this new plan of action, but they're 826 00:55:40,120 --> 00:55:43,200 Speaker 1: also wary of some of the discourse that is surrounding this. 827 00:55:43,640 --> 00:55:45,839 Speaker 1: So one example that comes to mind here is the 828 00:55:45,880 --> 00:55:50,600 Speaker 1: idea of liberation itself. Right, we often talk about liberation theology, 829 00:55:50,760 --> 00:55:52,320 Speaker 1: and we often talk about it is that it was 830 00:55:52,400 --> 00:55:57,200 Speaker 1: just sort of accepted wholesale by the church in Latin America. Well, 831 00:55:57,239 --> 00:56:00,120 Speaker 1: a lot of the documents that I'm encountering here are 832 00:56:00,160 --> 00:56:04,080 Speaker 1: there's a great debate over the use of liberations, specifically 833 00:56:04,120 --> 00:56:09,320 Speaker 1: because the idea of liberation is so tied up with Marxism, right, 834 00:56:09,480 --> 00:56:12,960 Speaker 1: and that is, you know, at this time, the Catholic 835 00:56:13,000 --> 00:56:16,920 Speaker 1: Church as a global institution and Marxism as a global 836 00:56:16,960 --> 00:56:21,920 Speaker 1: ideology are scene its antithetical. And here the idea that 837 00:56:22,040 --> 00:56:25,120 Speaker 1: in the Church's view, at least from these documents, the 838 00:56:25,280 --> 00:56:27,640 Speaker 1: idea of Marxism that it's talking about when it's using 839 00:56:27,680 --> 00:56:31,160 Speaker 1: Marxism is very much the Soviet Union, Right, It's very 840 00:56:31,239 --> 00:56:35,040 Speaker 1: much the sort of atheistic approach to the church to 841 00:56:35,200 --> 00:56:38,480 Speaker 1: religion that comes out of the early form of Marxism 842 00:56:38,560 --> 00:56:42,719 Speaker 1: Leninism from early twentieth century. And so there's a great 843 00:56:42,719 --> 00:56:46,000 Speaker 1: debate on whether or not to use liberation. And ultimately, 844 00:56:46,040 --> 00:56:50,040 Speaker 1: you know, those supporting this discourse went out um and 845 00:56:50,040 --> 00:56:53,480 Speaker 1: and it is decided that liberation will be the words 846 00:56:53,760 --> 00:56:57,480 Speaker 1: and the sort of discourse that the parish priests UM 847 00:56:57,760 --> 00:57:00,440 Speaker 1: will use. But the other big thing that comes out 848 00:57:00,480 --> 00:57:03,000 Speaker 1: of this in addition to this sort of discourse of liberation, 849 00:57:03,520 --> 00:57:08,839 Speaker 1: is this new idea of UM Catholic based communities. Right, 850 00:57:09,120 --> 00:57:13,720 Speaker 1: is this whole new framework for UM sort of understanding 851 00:57:14,120 --> 00:57:17,520 Speaker 1: a Christian community. Right. Prior to this innovation of the 852 00:57:17,560 --> 00:57:21,400 Speaker 1: base community, you know, a Christian community was defined by 853 00:57:21,440 --> 00:57:23,720 Speaker 1: the hierarchy of the church. Right, you have the sort 854 00:57:23,720 --> 00:57:27,080 Speaker 1: of congregation, you have your parishes, you have the different 855 00:57:27,400 --> 00:57:32,959 Speaker 1: UM sort of structural and bureaucratic UH designations that sort 856 00:57:32,960 --> 00:57:36,280 Speaker 1: of link from a parish upward UM to the sort 857 00:57:36,280 --> 00:57:40,400 Speaker 1: of church hierarchy itself. But the based community essentially is 858 00:57:40,440 --> 00:57:44,360 Speaker 1: saying that, you know, wherever a few people gather and 859 00:57:44,400 --> 00:57:48,000 Speaker 1: are studying the Word of God or reading scripture or 860 00:57:48,200 --> 00:57:51,720 Speaker 1: having theological debates, that that should be considered, you know, 861 00:57:52,080 --> 00:57:55,280 Speaker 1: part of the church UM should be considered that part 862 00:57:55,280 --> 00:57:57,800 Speaker 1: of the church. And so in that sense we can 863 00:57:57,800 --> 00:58:00,880 Speaker 1: look at sasan Kayatano parish and the work that it's 864 00:58:00,960 --> 00:58:03,880 Speaker 1: doing with workers and a sum Our factory and sort 865 00:58:03,920 --> 00:58:05,560 Speaker 1: of this has me thinking about, you know, what does 866 00:58:05,560 --> 00:58:08,600 Speaker 1: it mean you know, what do these based communities look 867 00:58:08,640 --> 00:58:11,520 Speaker 1: like in practice? Is it possible for us to conceive 868 00:58:12,240 --> 00:58:15,960 Speaker 1: of workers who are reaching out to their local priest 869 00:58:16,360 --> 00:58:21,200 Speaker 1: for assistance as perhaps their own Christian based community or furthermore, 870 00:58:21,200 --> 00:58:23,680 Speaker 1: you know, at this time in Chile, in addition to 871 00:58:23,720 --> 00:58:27,360 Speaker 1: the leftist political parties the socialist and the communist, which 872 00:58:27,480 --> 00:58:30,720 Speaker 1: is you know, a majority of workers, the Christian Democrats 873 00:58:30,760 --> 00:58:34,280 Speaker 1: are also a large force. Right in nineteen sixty four, 874 00:58:34,520 --> 00:58:38,200 Speaker 1: President at What Pray is elected as a Christian Democrat 875 00:58:38,520 --> 00:58:42,520 Speaker 1: and he's the sort of what will initiate a process 876 00:58:42,520 --> 00:58:47,040 Speaker 1: that will culminate with Allende's election in nineteen seventy UM, 877 00:58:47,080 --> 00:58:50,000 Speaker 1: and by that I mean he initiates what he refers 878 00:58:50,000 --> 00:58:53,120 Speaker 1: as to a revolution in liberty UM, which is sort 879 00:58:53,160 --> 00:58:57,800 Speaker 1: of a communitarian reformism that is essentially seen as perhaps 880 00:58:57,880 --> 00:59:02,880 Speaker 1: forestalling Marxist revolution, Socialist revolution from taking place, but it's 881 00:59:02,920 --> 00:59:07,600 Speaker 1: incredibly popular amongst working class and workers UM. And the 882 00:59:07,680 --> 00:59:11,840 Speaker 1: Christian Democrat party itself was a very wide ranging party 883 00:59:11,920 --> 00:59:15,720 Speaker 1: that encompassed right wing elements but also left wing elements. 884 00:59:16,160 --> 00:59:17,600 Speaker 1: Can we can we talk a bit a bit more 885 00:59:17,640 --> 00:59:20,280 Speaker 1: about like what the Christian Christian Democrats are because this 886 00:59:20,320 --> 00:59:23,880 Speaker 1: is a thing that like doesn't really exist anymore, but 887 00:59:24,440 --> 00:59:28,520 Speaker 1: was I think like a very important player. Like I mean, 888 00:59:28,560 --> 00:59:31,120 Speaker 1: there's there's there's very powerful topocratic parties and you're upre's 889 00:59:31,160 --> 00:59:34,240 Speaker 1: very powerful Chusian depocratic parties like across Latin America. Yeah, 890 00:59:34,240 --> 00:59:35,760 Speaker 1: can we can we talk a bit about like what 891 00:59:35,960 --> 00:59:39,200 Speaker 1: that is and how that's different from like, you know, 892 00:59:39,240 --> 00:59:42,280 Speaker 1: how it's different from just like your your generic your 893 00:59:42,280 --> 00:59:45,479 Speaker 1: generic sort of socialist party, and how it's different even 894 00:59:45,520 --> 00:59:47,520 Speaker 1: from your sort of like I don't know, you're like 895 00:59:47,600 --> 00:59:50,720 Speaker 1: labor party social democrats. Yeah, no, I mean this is 896 00:59:50,880 --> 00:59:52,680 Speaker 1: this is a great question, and you're right, this isn't 897 00:59:52,720 --> 00:59:55,200 Speaker 1: something that is sort of exists in the present moment. 898 00:59:55,240 --> 00:59:58,440 Speaker 1: So it does seem very foreign to us. Um. But 899 00:59:58,520 --> 01:00:00,800 Speaker 1: really with the sort of way or that the Christian 900 01:00:00,800 --> 01:00:05,360 Speaker 1: Democrats make is that you know, in theory, they agree 901 01:00:05,600 --> 01:00:09,800 Speaker 1: for the need for structural change, right in theory, the 902 01:00:09,880 --> 01:00:16,040 Speaker 1: alleviation of poverty, a more a more just distribution of wealth, right, 903 01:00:16,240 --> 01:00:19,000 Speaker 1: But their ideas of justice and things, and this is 904 01:00:19,000 --> 01:00:21,760 Speaker 1: where the Christianity part of the Christian Democrat comes in, right, 905 01:00:21,880 --> 01:00:25,840 Speaker 1: is that it is justice as understood in a Christian 906 01:00:25,920 --> 01:00:29,560 Speaker 1: sense of justice, right, not in a sort of more 907 01:00:29,720 --> 01:00:33,640 Speaker 1: radical egalitarian sense of justice. That's stay a socialist or 908 01:00:33,680 --> 01:00:36,600 Speaker 1: a communist would believe in, you know. So, for a 909 01:00:36,600 --> 01:00:39,440 Speaker 1: socialist or a communist, the sort of motor of history 910 01:00:39,520 --> 01:00:42,600 Speaker 1: is class struggle. Right. For a Christian democrat, the motor 911 01:00:42,680 --> 01:00:46,520 Speaker 1: of history is God and his son Jesus Christ. Right, 912 01:00:46,560 --> 01:00:49,160 Speaker 1: And that is the sort of would be I guess 913 01:00:49,200 --> 01:00:51,400 Speaker 1: you could think of as the main difference. And then 914 01:00:51,440 --> 01:00:55,440 Speaker 1: how that plays out in practical terms would be in 915 01:00:55,480 --> 01:00:58,160 Speaker 1: a for a communist, for a socialist, right, you want 916 01:00:58,240 --> 01:01:02,120 Speaker 1: a sort of radical communist some dictatorship of the proletariat. 917 01:01:02,640 --> 01:01:07,000 Speaker 1: These types of forms are very stagist movement through history. 918 01:01:07,040 --> 01:01:09,640 Speaker 1: For a Christian democrat, however, it's much more of a 919 01:01:09,640 --> 01:01:14,840 Speaker 1: communitarian ethic. Right, It's much more of a harmonization between say, 920 01:01:14,880 --> 01:01:19,520 Speaker 1: the bourgeoisie and the proletariat, rather than an overthrowing and 921 01:01:19,560 --> 01:01:23,600 Speaker 1: an eradication of the bourgeoisie by the proletariat, as it 922 01:01:23,640 --> 01:01:27,000 Speaker 1: would be for say a socialist or a communist. Yeah, 923 01:01:27,000 --> 01:01:29,360 Speaker 1: and I guess that that's something I want to like. 924 01:01:29,600 --> 01:01:32,480 Speaker 1: I want to move a bit talking about all end 925 01:01:32,560 --> 01:01:36,200 Speaker 1: a briefly, because I think that's an interesting one of 926 01:01:36,200 --> 01:01:38,360 Speaker 1: the things you're talking about earlier is ill End talking 927 01:01:38,360 --> 01:01:40,800 Speaker 1: about Okay, well we can have a democratic path of socialism. 928 01:01:40,840 --> 01:01:44,760 Speaker 1: And what's what's very interesting to me about both Allende 929 01:01:45,000 --> 01:01:47,440 Speaker 1: and what's happening in the Cordonas is that like, okay, 930 01:01:47,440 --> 01:01:49,720 Speaker 1: so like that that that is a that idea has 931 01:01:49,720 --> 01:01:51,560 Speaker 1: been around for a very long time, and like there 932 01:01:51,560 --> 01:01:55,400 Speaker 1: are a lot of people who take power who are like, okay, 933 01:01:55,440 --> 01:01:58,320 Speaker 1: we're taking an amocratic path of socialism. And then you know, 934 01:01:58,400 --> 01:02:01,120 Speaker 1: like what a lot of whim are Like Germany right 935 01:02:01,200 --> 01:02:04,440 Speaker 1: is ruled by by the German Social Democratic Party, and 936 01:02:04,440 --> 01:02:06,760 Speaker 1: it's like, well you look at what they do and 937 01:02:07,120 --> 01:02:10,320 Speaker 1: they're not really like socialist NG they're most I mean, 938 01:02:10,400 --> 01:02:12,280 Speaker 1: you know, they're they're they're they're doing they're doing things 939 01:02:12,360 --> 01:02:15,920 Speaker 1: like they're doing things like welfare reform. But that's a 940 01:02:16,120 --> 01:02:18,520 Speaker 1: very different thing. Well, and you know, and you can 941 01:02:18,520 --> 01:02:20,560 Speaker 1: see like the Labor Party in in in the UK, 942 01:02:20,680 --> 01:02:23,760 Speaker 1: for example, well like okay, well the nationalized industries, right, 943 01:02:23,800 --> 01:02:27,920 Speaker 1: but you you don't see the kind of movements against 944 01:02:28,040 --> 01:02:31,440 Speaker 1: like the the you don't see the kind of movement 945 01:02:31,440 --> 01:02:33,640 Speaker 1: against property and that the movement against sort of like 946 01:02:35,680 --> 01:02:38,680 Speaker 1: like you don't see an actual attempt to like eliminate 947 01:02:38,760 --> 01:02:41,000 Speaker 1: which was he as a class in the same way 948 01:02:41,040 --> 01:02:42,560 Speaker 1: that you do about Chile. And so I was wondering, like, 949 01:02:42,640 --> 01:02:46,480 Speaker 1: what what makes like, what was it about this moment 950 01:02:46,680 --> 01:02:51,840 Speaker 1: that someone who claim that actually comes into power and 951 01:02:52,240 --> 01:02:54,320 Speaker 1: starts doing it, and starts doing in a way that's 952 01:02:54,840 --> 01:03:00,680 Speaker 1: not just the sort of like you know when most 953 01:03:01,960 --> 01:03:04,760 Speaker 1: of the time when someone nationalizes something, right, it's okay. 954 01:03:04,800 --> 01:03:08,240 Speaker 1: So instead of instead of having a boss, that is, 955 01:03:09,920 --> 01:03:11,640 Speaker 1: instead of having a boss whose job it is to 956 01:03:11,840 --> 01:03:14,080 Speaker 1: like make money for the stock market, you have a 957 01:03:14,120 --> 01:03:15,720 Speaker 1: boss who works for the state, and there there there's 958 01:03:15,720 --> 01:03:18,680 Speaker 1: there's there's very little sort of like structural change in 959 01:03:18,800 --> 01:03:21,240 Speaker 1: how and how the bureaucracy has run. There's no change. 960 01:03:21,240 --> 01:03:25,520 Speaker 1: And like your your individual relation to your boss does 961 01:03:25,560 --> 01:03:31,160 Speaker 1: not change. He's still your boss, and that isn't what 962 01:03:31,240 --> 01:03:35,200 Speaker 1: happens in Chile, in in in the in the same way. Yeah, 963 01:03:35,200 --> 01:03:41,320 Speaker 1: I'm interested, why why why? Why this looks different here? 964 01:03:41,560 --> 01:03:44,240 Speaker 1: I guess Yeah, No, I think this is a great question, 965 01:03:44,360 --> 01:03:46,720 Speaker 1: you know. And and so to to get to end 966 01:03:46,760 --> 01:03:50,400 Speaker 1: a it is imperative that we start with Fray in 967 01:03:50,520 --> 01:03:52,880 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty four, and in some senses we can start 968 01:03:52,920 --> 01:03:56,680 Speaker 1: even in ninety seven, which was End's first attempt at 969 01:03:56,760 --> 01:04:00,360 Speaker 1: running for president. At this time i End is running 970 01:04:00,520 --> 01:04:03,920 Speaker 1: UM as essentially the last gasp, you could say, of 971 01:04:04,000 --> 01:04:06,720 Speaker 1: the Popular Front which emerged in the nineteen thirties and 972 01:04:06,880 --> 01:04:10,520 Speaker 1: into the nineteen forties and had successfully united a large 973 01:04:10,520 --> 01:04:14,080 Speaker 1: swath of the political parties in Chile. And this is 974 01:04:14,120 --> 01:04:18,040 Speaker 1: what led to that earlier moment of industrialization, largely through 975 01:04:18,200 --> 01:04:22,120 Speaker 1: the sort of policy known as imports substitution industrialization, when 976 01:04:22,120 --> 01:04:25,840 Speaker 1: which you know, the national industries would be built, they 977 01:04:25,840 --> 01:04:29,960 Speaker 1: would be protected via tariffs, price controls, and others that 978 01:04:29,960 --> 01:04:33,080 Speaker 1: would stimulate local growth to produce products that would have 979 01:04:33,120 --> 01:04:38,360 Speaker 1: otherwise been imported. However, by the late nineteen fifties, things 980 01:04:38,360 --> 01:04:41,600 Speaker 1: have begun to bottleneck right, largely in the Chilean case, 981 01:04:41,600 --> 01:04:44,480 Speaker 1: because a lot of the countryside is still under control 982 01:04:44,560 --> 01:04:47,720 Speaker 1: of the Latin Fundo of Grand Estate, right, and which 983 01:04:47,760 --> 01:04:51,160 Speaker 1: means that productivity isn't necessarily where it should be UM. 984 01:04:51,240 --> 01:04:54,640 Speaker 1: But it also means that the labor force that's sort 985 01:04:54,640 --> 01:04:57,880 Speaker 1: of stuck on the land as well isn't available then 986 01:04:58,040 --> 01:05:01,560 Speaker 1: for the development of capital as in industry right, and 987 01:05:01,600 --> 01:05:04,040 Speaker 1: the capital goods are what you need to really jump 988 01:05:04,160 --> 01:05:08,200 Speaker 1: start industry whole sale. What Chila does really well is 989 01:05:08,560 --> 01:05:12,680 Speaker 1: that sort of in a mediary phase of making goods 990 01:05:12,720 --> 01:05:16,920 Speaker 1: for individual consumption, right, things of things of that nature. Uh. 991 01:05:16,960 --> 01:05:20,440 Speaker 1: And so what End does in seven is essentially trying 992 01:05:20,440 --> 01:05:25,960 Speaker 1: to first run on a platform of industrialization and to 993 01:05:26,120 --> 01:05:30,000 Speaker 1: fix inflation, right Uh. And he narrowly loses. He just 994 01:05:30,040 --> 01:05:34,000 Speaker 1: barely loses the election. In nineteen fifty seven, Hill who 995 01:05:34,000 --> 01:05:37,840 Speaker 1: wins is Alessandri wins. Uh. And he will essentially adopt 996 01:05:37,840 --> 01:05:43,840 Speaker 1: a very classical liberal approach, free market reforms, repression of 997 01:05:43,920 --> 01:05:47,440 Speaker 1: labor in some senses, freezing of any sort of gains 998 01:05:47,440 --> 01:05:51,720 Speaker 1: of the labor movement, et cetera. This ultimately does not work. Right. 999 01:05:51,920 --> 01:05:54,880 Speaker 1: And so in nineteen sixty four, you know, Shaker, you 1000 01:05:55,000 --> 01:05:58,680 Speaker 1: have calls then for a more revolutionary approach. Well. Also, 1001 01:05:58,720 --> 01:06:01,800 Speaker 1: what's happening in en sixty or right as we're now 1002 01:06:01,880 --> 01:06:04,640 Speaker 1: in the wake of the Cuban Revolution which has taken place, 1003 01:06:04,960 --> 01:06:11,080 Speaker 1: which has put the America's as a hemispheric designation unnoticed 1004 01:06:11,160 --> 01:06:14,440 Speaker 1: that now it is possible to have uh, sort of 1005 01:06:14,600 --> 01:06:20,600 Speaker 1: a revolution via insurrection via guerilla warfare be successful, right, 1006 01:06:20,640 --> 01:06:23,680 Speaker 1: and not only be successful, but be successful in defeating 1007 01:06:24,080 --> 01:06:27,920 Speaker 1: the hedgemon of the hemisphere, the United States. And so 1008 01:06:28,000 --> 01:06:29,920 Speaker 1: what the United States will then do is launched the 1009 01:06:29,960 --> 01:06:33,280 Speaker 1: Alliance through Progress, which is essentially a way of funneling 1010 01:06:33,360 --> 01:06:37,560 Speaker 1: money into reformist minded governments as a way to appease 1011 01:06:37,880 --> 01:06:41,720 Speaker 1: these calls for revolution m but prevent a sort of 1012 01:06:41,760 --> 01:06:44,959 Speaker 1: Marxist revolution from taking place. So in the case of Chile, 1013 01:06:45,120 --> 01:06:50,040 Speaker 1: the Alliance through Progress will funnel many, many amounts of 1014 01:06:50,080 --> 01:06:55,040 Speaker 1: dollars into the Fray administration. UM and Frey wins the 1015 01:06:56,080 --> 01:06:59,120 Speaker 1: election handily. Now there's a great debate to be had 1016 01:06:59,120 --> 01:07:01,720 Speaker 1: on whether or not the UH or whether the involvement 1017 01:07:01,720 --> 01:07:03,640 Speaker 1: of the c i A and a sort of scare 1018 01:07:03,680 --> 01:07:07,280 Speaker 1: tactic and fearmongering campaign went on in the nineteen sixty 1019 01:07:07,280 --> 01:07:10,439 Speaker 1: four campaign. Unfortunately, we just don't have the documents yet 1020 01:07:11,000 --> 01:07:13,840 Speaker 1: UM for this period, like we do for the nineteen seventies, 1021 01:07:13,880 --> 01:07:16,800 Speaker 1: then the lead up to the coup in the nineteen seventies. UM. 1022 01:07:16,840 --> 01:07:19,000 Speaker 1: You know, hopefully one day we'll have a better sense 1023 01:07:19,040 --> 01:07:23,040 Speaker 1: of really what went on that explains such a lopsided 1024 01:07:23,120 --> 01:07:27,120 Speaker 1: defeat of Agenda in nineteen sixty four. UM, So Frey 1025 01:07:27,160 --> 01:07:29,360 Speaker 1: will come to power in nineteen sixty four, and actually 1026 01:07:29,400 --> 01:07:32,960 Speaker 1: the agrarian reform in Chile will begin under the Christian 1027 01:07:32,960 --> 01:07:37,200 Speaker 1: Democrats under phrase administration financed in large part by the 1028 01:07:37,200 --> 01:07:41,800 Speaker 1: Alliance Progress UM. Also the nationalization of copper, which will 1029 01:07:41,840 --> 01:07:45,080 Speaker 1: be fully nationalized under all End in the nineteen seventies, 1030 01:07:45,400 --> 01:07:48,000 Speaker 1: but it actually exists in a state of so called 1031 01:07:48,040 --> 01:07:52,280 Speaker 1: negotiated nationalization under Frey, or what Frey would refer to 1032 01:07:52,320 --> 01:07:56,360 Speaker 1: as the Chileanization of copper, in which Chile would take 1033 01:07:56,400 --> 01:08:01,120 Speaker 1: a very small right fifty one, you know, percent controlling 1034 01:08:01,520 --> 01:08:05,440 Speaker 1: in the copper companies UM, but would still have large 1035 01:08:05,800 --> 01:08:10,360 Speaker 1: the American copper companies Anaconda and Kennicott specifically, would still 1036 01:08:10,440 --> 01:08:14,200 Speaker 1: be the ones responsible for running the operations themselves. That's 1037 01:08:14,240 --> 01:08:20,719 Speaker 1: that's an interesting I I guess weird historical thing because 1038 01:08:20,720 --> 01:08:22,840 Speaker 1: I know, okay, so like this, there have been a 1039 01:08:22,840 --> 01:08:25,040 Speaker 1: lot of times where the CIA has supported lander form, 1040 01:08:25,080 --> 01:08:26,720 Speaker 1: which is very weird, like that they do it in 1041 01:08:27,120 --> 01:08:30,360 Speaker 1: Japan for example, and you know it's seen as seen 1042 01:08:30,400 --> 01:08:31,640 Speaker 1: as one of these things. It's like, okay, well we 1043 01:08:31,680 --> 01:08:33,960 Speaker 1: have to do lander form in order to like stop 1044 01:08:33,960 --> 01:08:35,920 Speaker 1: and stop an actual revolution for happening. So we'll do 1045 01:08:35,960 --> 01:08:38,200 Speaker 1: a sort of capitalist version of it. It's interesting to 1046 01:08:38,240 --> 01:08:40,599 Speaker 1: me that Chile does it because I feel like that 1047 01:08:40,600 --> 01:08:44,080 Speaker 1: that's not something that happens in most of the other 1048 01:08:44,280 --> 01:08:47,679 Speaker 1: Latin American states with the CIA gets involved. Um yeah, 1049 01:08:47,720 --> 01:08:49,760 Speaker 1: well it's also I mean, the Alliance for Progress is 1050 01:08:49,840 --> 01:08:53,160 Speaker 1: official government policy. Um. You know, it will be the 1051 01:08:53,160 --> 01:08:56,080 Speaker 1: one that starts the alliance and then it will continue 1052 01:08:56,120 --> 01:09:00,800 Speaker 1: into the LBJ administration following Kennedy's assassination. Um. And so 1053 01:09:00,920 --> 01:09:04,680 Speaker 1: that is um. And you're right that regionally, the Appliance 1054 01:09:04,760 --> 01:09:07,720 Speaker 1: for Progress is largely a failure. There are, however, a 1055 01:09:07,720 --> 01:09:11,040 Speaker 1: few successes, and Chile was at the time held up 1056 01:09:11,080 --> 01:09:13,559 Speaker 1: as one of the successes and has somewhat been born 1057 01:09:13,640 --> 01:09:17,080 Speaker 1: out as one of the successes insofar as it is 1058 01:09:17,080 --> 01:09:21,759 Speaker 1: what initiates Thegarian reform in Chile. So so I guess 1059 01:09:23,200 --> 01:09:27,960 Speaker 1: so okay, So what you're saying is that there are 1060 01:09:28,160 --> 01:09:31,000 Speaker 1: there there's there's there's a specific group of parties at 1061 01:09:31,000 --> 01:09:33,040 Speaker 1: the US backs at this period who are trying to 1062 01:09:33,160 --> 01:09:35,439 Speaker 1: do this sort of who are trying to do some 1063 01:09:35,520 --> 01:09:39,400 Speaker 1: kind of reform, um like, who are trying to do 1064 01:09:39,400 --> 01:09:41,760 Speaker 1: this sort of like the class collaboration reform to save 1065 01:09:41,760 --> 01:09:45,479 Speaker 1: off revolution thing. And then I guess the like later 1066 01:09:45,560 --> 01:09:49,680 Speaker 1: policy becomes just do the do kind of insurgency on 1067 01:09:49,680 --> 01:09:53,600 Speaker 1: behalf of the landowners. Yeah, I mean the way the 1068 01:09:53,800 --> 01:09:57,479 Speaker 1: phrase you know, as the phrase administration continues, it becomes 1069 01:09:57,479 --> 01:10:03,280 Speaker 1: clear that his sort of reformist approaches is simply not working. Um. 1070 01:10:03,479 --> 01:10:06,280 Speaker 1: One is just not working on a macro economic level. Right. 1071 01:10:06,360 --> 01:10:09,000 Speaker 1: Inflation is still happening, which has sort of been the 1072 01:10:09,680 --> 01:10:12,640 Speaker 1: you know, enemy number one of the Chilean economy for 1073 01:10:12,760 --> 01:10:14,960 Speaker 1: most of the twentieth century. Right, most of the twentieth 1074 01:10:14,960 --> 01:10:20,519 Speaker 1: century in Chile is presidential administrations and economic economists, economic 1075 01:10:20,560 --> 01:10:25,560 Speaker 1: advisors are all struggling to understand how to control inflation. Um. 1076 01:10:25,600 --> 01:10:28,080 Speaker 1: And you know, Frey thinks that they can figure it 1077 01:10:28,120 --> 01:10:31,679 Speaker 1: out via these sort of reforms, via the gray in reform. 1078 01:10:32,200 --> 01:10:35,040 Speaker 1: Be it the sort of chileanization of the great minding 1079 01:10:35,080 --> 01:10:38,760 Speaker 1: wealth of the country. Uh, in terms of factory or 1080 01:10:38,840 --> 01:10:42,400 Speaker 1: industry level. They essentially proposed this idea of sort of 1081 01:10:42,439 --> 01:10:46,200 Speaker 1: workers enterprises that is somewhat modeled off the Yugoslavian model, 1082 01:10:46,760 --> 01:10:51,200 Speaker 1: which is a much more communitarian um approach. Right, as 1083 01:10:51,200 --> 01:10:54,439 Speaker 1: you were saying earlier, you know, the boss is still there. 1084 01:10:54,920 --> 01:10:58,360 Speaker 1: Workers do have a stake in control of the enterprise. UM, 1085 01:10:58,400 --> 01:11:01,240 Speaker 1: but private properties still exists, so I guess still the 1086 01:11:01,280 --> 01:11:04,600 Speaker 1: boss like with that, Like how to what extent is it? 1087 01:11:04,760 --> 01:11:08,479 Speaker 1: Like if you have this on a scale of like 1088 01:11:08,840 --> 01:11:10,960 Speaker 1: on the one hand, on like the the extreme end 1089 01:11:11,040 --> 01:11:13,960 Speaker 1: you have there's like nothing or maybe workers can own 1090 01:11:13,960 --> 01:11:15,639 Speaker 1: a share of a company. And on the other end 1091 01:11:15,840 --> 01:11:18,400 Speaker 1: is like I don't know, like like in nineteen thirties, 1092 01:11:18,800 --> 01:11:23,479 Speaker 1: like like seven like anarchist commune in Spain, Like how 1093 01:11:24,120 --> 01:11:26,280 Speaker 1: how how much control do they actually like I don't know, 1094 01:11:26,280 --> 01:11:28,360 Speaker 1: like is this closer to something like the sort of 1095 01:11:28,400 --> 01:11:31,680 Speaker 1: like German code code determination system, Like how close to 1096 01:11:31,680 --> 01:11:33,760 Speaker 1: like Yugoslavia? Is this? Sorry, I'm trying to get a 1097 01:11:33,760 --> 01:11:37,280 Speaker 1: sense of like yeah, this is a lot of this. No, 1098 01:11:37,320 --> 01:11:39,200 Speaker 1: this is fascinating. In fact, one of my sort of 1099 01:11:39,280 --> 01:11:42,760 Speaker 1: dream projects or sort of dream archives to get into 1100 01:11:42,800 --> 01:11:46,919 Speaker 1: an ultimately be the Yugoslavian archives or former Yugoslavian archives, 1101 01:11:47,080 --> 01:11:49,719 Speaker 1: because there is a lot of collaboration picking place between 1102 01:11:49,760 --> 01:11:54,360 Speaker 1: the Yugoslavian Left and Chileans at this time. UM. The 1103 01:11:54,400 --> 01:11:56,599 Speaker 1: problem is that a lot of this never really gets 1104 01:11:56,600 --> 01:11:59,280 Speaker 1: off the ground in practice. It is a lot of 1105 01:11:59,479 --> 01:12:02,480 Speaker 1: sort of things that exist on paper, reforms that are proposed, 1106 01:12:02,800 --> 01:12:05,880 Speaker 1: but reforms that never really get implemented, which then has 1107 01:12:05,920 --> 01:12:10,759 Speaker 1: the effect of heightening expectations but not delivering on the goods, 1108 01:12:11,120 --> 01:12:14,719 Speaker 1: which pushes people further to the left right and pushes 1109 01:12:14,760 --> 01:12:18,120 Speaker 1: them to demand a more radical solution, which they find 1110 01:12:18,200 --> 01:12:21,920 Speaker 1: in the nineteen seventy campaign of Salva end Right. And 1111 01:12:21,960 --> 01:12:25,320 Speaker 1: this is what really gets us to the to Ayends victory, 1112 01:12:25,360 --> 01:12:28,920 Speaker 1: which is the sort of failures of the Free administration 1113 01:12:29,040 --> 01:12:34,679 Speaker 1: to achieve the sort of revolution in liberty that he promises. Also, 1114 01:12:34,760 --> 01:12:38,280 Speaker 1: the near the end of the Free administration, there's a 1115 01:12:38,360 --> 01:12:40,920 Speaker 1: massacre that takes place in the south of Chile in 1116 01:12:41,000 --> 01:12:46,120 Speaker 1: part the month UM that really UM solidifies or if 1117 01:12:46,120 --> 01:12:49,960 Speaker 1: you will, sort of the final push um or loss 1118 01:12:50,000 --> 01:12:53,040 Speaker 1: of legitimacy for the Fray administration, as well as a 1119 01:12:53,400 --> 01:12:58,320 Speaker 1: pushing the sort of more popular classes to um be 1120 01:12:58,400 --> 01:13:01,040 Speaker 1: opposed to the Frame administration via hosts the sort of 1121 01:13:00,680 --> 01:13:05,960 Speaker 1: the Christian democratic message of reformantism and decides to sort 1122 01:13:05,960 --> 01:13:09,479 Speaker 1: of give revolution a chance. Uh. And it's into that 1123 01:13:09,640 --> 01:13:15,400 Speaker 1: moment that Salvador Allende reforms UM. The coalition that you know, 1124 01:13:15,479 --> 01:13:18,400 Speaker 1: the original coalition that he runs on was was referred 1125 01:13:18,400 --> 01:13:21,080 Speaker 1: to as the frapp Um. He forms a sort of 1126 01:13:21,160 --> 01:13:24,439 Speaker 1: new coalition in the lead up to the nineteen seventy election, 1127 01:13:24,479 --> 01:13:27,400 Speaker 1: which would be the Popular Unity Coalition UH. And it's 1128 01:13:27,400 --> 01:13:31,360 Speaker 1: a coalition of leftist parties, primarily the Socialists of which 1129 01:13:31,360 --> 01:13:34,800 Speaker 1: I end is a member, and the Communists. And here 1130 01:13:34,840 --> 01:13:37,800 Speaker 1: it's important to remember in the Chilean case that the 1131 01:13:37,880 --> 01:13:41,800 Speaker 1: Socialists are actually to the left of the communists. Um. 1132 01:13:42,000 --> 01:13:47,600 Speaker 1: The Communists are a much more um reserved approach to revolution, 1133 01:13:47,840 --> 01:13:51,960 Speaker 1: and by which I mean they're very much um going 1134 01:13:52,000 --> 01:13:54,200 Speaker 1: to sort of have the you know, they're they're holding 1135 01:13:54,200 --> 01:13:57,200 Speaker 1: the party line right there behold into the common tern right. 1136 01:13:57,240 --> 01:13:59,320 Speaker 1: But they are also very much in line with the 1137 01:13:59,600 --> 01:14:04,400 Speaker 1: I in days, with the day's view of legislating socialism. 1138 01:14:04,520 --> 01:14:06,880 Speaker 1: That's I guess. Another interesting aspect of this is, like 1139 01:14:07,040 --> 01:14:09,240 Speaker 1: that's something I think also doesn't get discussed very much, 1140 01:14:09,240 --> 01:14:12,880 Speaker 1: which is this period where like a lot of the 1141 01:14:13,400 --> 01:14:16,080 Speaker 1: like that that was the party discipline being opposed from 1142 01:14:16,080 --> 01:14:19,120 Speaker 1: Moscow for like a lot of this period like is 1143 01:14:19,160 --> 01:14:21,800 Speaker 1: explicitly telling them not to like explicitly saying don't do 1144 01:14:21,840 --> 01:14:27,120 Speaker 1: a revolution, like hold and stabilize the situation. Um. Is 1145 01:14:27,120 --> 01:14:31,200 Speaker 1: that the case like so I because I I okay, 1146 01:14:31,240 --> 01:14:33,400 Speaker 1: this is this is again going back to me knowing Italy, 1147 01:14:33,439 --> 01:14:38,200 Speaker 1: but I know Chile. That is that something like how 1148 01:14:38,320 --> 01:14:40,600 Speaker 1: how long has that been policy? Frow is? Is Is that 1149 01:14:40,640 --> 01:14:43,920 Speaker 1: like an old is that old popular front like stuff 1150 01:14:43,960 --> 01:14:46,880 Speaker 1: from them? Or is this is has it like because 1151 01:14:46,880 --> 01:14:48,479 Speaker 1: I know like like the U S policity Like so 1152 01:14:48,520 --> 01:14:51,120 Speaker 1: it's just like the Moscow line flips back and forth 1153 01:14:51,400 --> 01:14:56,360 Speaker 1: somewhat randomly depending on like what it's going, don't flips 1154 01:14:56,360 --> 01:14:58,840 Speaker 1: a lot, especially in that that nine three period. And 1155 01:14:58,840 --> 01:15:01,000 Speaker 1: and you know, once they established the idea of the 1156 01:15:01,000 --> 01:15:04,040 Speaker 1: Popular Front, that sort of does become the line. The 1157 01:15:04,240 --> 01:15:08,880 Speaker 1: big change takes place in UM. There is a meeting 1158 01:15:08,920 --> 01:15:11,400 Speaker 1: of the Common Turn in nineteen fifty seven, and that's 1159 01:15:11,400 --> 01:15:16,360 Speaker 1: when the idea of individual national roads to socialism becomes 1160 01:15:16,400 --> 01:15:19,640 Speaker 1: the official party line of the Common Tern And that 1161 01:15:19,800 --> 01:15:23,439 Speaker 1: is what then authorizes communist parties across the world to 1162 01:15:23,640 --> 01:15:26,479 Speaker 1: seek their own routes to socialism. Right, so it no 1163 01:15:26,520 --> 01:15:30,439 Speaker 1: longer has to be a Leninist insurrectional model, It no 1164 01:15:30,520 --> 01:15:34,280 Speaker 1: longer has to be a Cuban revolutionary model. UM. It 1165 01:15:34,280 --> 01:15:36,960 Speaker 1: can be its own. So that when allend A proposes 1166 01:15:37,560 --> 01:15:42,360 Speaker 1: this pluralist way of reaching socialism. That's what the communists 1167 01:15:42,360 --> 01:15:46,320 Speaker 1: will link to UM and and really that's what they'll 1168 01:15:46,400 --> 01:15:49,320 Speaker 1: hitch their wagon too, and will will tow that line 1169 01:15:50,000 --> 01:15:53,160 Speaker 1: throughout the three years, throughout the thousand days of the 1170 01:15:53,160 --> 01:15:56,719 Speaker 1: Allenda government, which will then ultimately put them into conflict 1171 01:15:56,760 --> 01:16:00,040 Speaker 1: with the left wing of the Socialist Party, which is 1172 01:16:00,040 --> 01:16:03,400 Speaker 1: pushing for a much more radical um a radical ship. 1173 01:16:03,479 --> 01:16:05,719 Speaker 1: And that's really the sort of context that the cordonate 1174 01:16:05,760 --> 01:16:08,600 Speaker 1: is emerge out of in nineteen seventy two, is the 1175 01:16:08,640 --> 01:16:14,599 Speaker 1: sort of growing factionalism, growing secretary sectarianism within the ruling 1176 01:16:14,600 --> 01:16:20,519 Speaker 1: coalition of the Popular Unity. Yeah, and I guess this 1177 01:16:20,520 --> 01:16:22,640 Speaker 1: this is already going a lot of some of the 1178 01:16:22,640 --> 01:16:27,639 Speaker 1: way to explaining why this looks different than a lot 1179 01:16:27,680 --> 01:16:30,559 Speaker 1: of the other sort of like a lot of the 1180 01:16:30,560 --> 01:16:34,320 Speaker 1: other sort of socialist coalition governments you see around the world. 1181 01:16:34,320 --> 01:16:36,200 Speaker 1: I mean, I mean, yeah, I mean partially just yeah, 1182 01:16:36,200 --> 01:16:39,680 Speaker 1: the influence of Yugoslavia is fascinating to me, because I 1183 01:16:39,680 --> 01:16:42,280 Speaker 1: mean that explained, That explains so much, right, Like that, 1184 01:16:42,280 --> 01:16:44,760 Speaker 1: that explains why there's a sort of democratic component to it, 1185 01:16:45,040 --> 01:16:48,160 Speaker 1: even in even in the sort of reformist periods and 1186 01:16:48,200 --> 01:16:50,920 Speaker 1: it explains why the expectation is that and not the 1187 01:16:50,960 --> 01:16:53,080 Speaker 1: sort of like even not even like like Soviet style 1188 01:16:53,160 --> 01:16:55,760 Speaker 1: nationalization absolutely does not look like that. Yeah, so you're 1189 01:16:55,760 --> 01:17:00,519 Speaker 1: you're right that you know, these these multifaceted, multi layer 1190 01:17:00,600 --> 01:17:04,599 Speaker 1: influences globally as well as locally within Chile as well 1191 01:17:04,600 --> 01:17:08,920 Speaker 1: as regionally, UM produce something that is the first time 1192 01:17:09,560 --> 01:17:14,519 Speaker 1: that UM so, for example, in victory, is the first 1193 01:17:14,560 --> 01:17:19,200 Speaker 1: time that an openly Marxist candidate will be elected president 1194 01:17:19,280 --> 01:17:23,880 Speaker 1: of a nation, elected democratically in a free and fair 1195 01:17:23,920 --> 01:17:28,719 Speaker 1: election that is not contested UM or anything like that. 1196 01:17:28,840 --> 01:17:31,679 Speaker 1: Now that said, he wins by plurality, he only wins 1197 01:17:31,720 --> 01:17:35,760 Speaker 1: by about in the thirty percent range UM. Now, historically 1198 01:17:35,760 --> 01:17:39,320 Speaker 1: in Chile, a plurality victory is not a problem because 1199 01:17:39,439 --> 01:17:43,160 Speaker 1: you demanded to the Congress, and the Congress typically will 1200 01:17:43,240 --> 01:17:47,680 Speaker 1: just rubber stamp the victory I end. However, you know, 1201 01:17:47,680 --> 01:17:51,600 Speaker 1: there's a lot of apprehension about what he means for 1202 01:17:51,760 --> 01:17:55,080 Speaker 1: the country, what he means for the sort of landed deletes, 1203 01:17:55,160 --> 01:17:57,799 Speaker 1: what he means for the sort of oligarchs that control 1204 01:17:57,920 --> 01:18:01,439 Speaker 1: the grand monopolies and she they uh, and so there 1205 01:18:01,520 --> 01:18:03,840 Speaker 1: is a lot of tension. Well, this is also then 1206 01:18:03,920 --> 01:18:09,200 Speaker 1: where the actions the CIA backfire. UM. So the work 1207 01:18:09,240 --> 01:18:12,360 Speaker 1: of the National Security Archive has done great work for 1208 01:18:12,600 --> 01:18:15,720 Speaker 1: uncovering the sort of two track plan that Nixon and 1209 01:18:15,760 --> 01:18:19,640 Speaker 1: Kissinger have for subverting the election of Allende and then 1210 01:18:19,720 --> 01:18:23,360 Speaker 1: ultimately preventing him from assuming power. And part of those 1211 01:18:23,400 --> 01:18:28,080 Speaker 1: tracks was to sort of foment some sort of crisis. UH. 1212 01:18:28,120 --> 01:18:31,560 Speaker 1: And so the crisis that they attempt to foment involves 1213 01:18:31,640 --> 01:18:36,479 Speaker 1: General Renee Schneider, and it is the attempt is that 1214 01:18:36,520 --> 01:18:40,200 Speaker 1: they're going to kidnap him and hold him hostage UM 1215 01:18:40,240 --> 01:18:42,639 Speaker 1: and use that as a way to prevent Allende from 1216 01:18:42,680 --> 01:18:46,280 Speaker 1: coming to power. Well, the problem is that goes horribly wrong. 1217 01:18:46,760 --> 01:18:50,080 Speaker 1: The people that are carrying out to kidnapping are clearly 1218 01:18:50,280 --> 01:18:54,200 Speaker 1: unprepared for what happens. UM. Things can go haywire and 1219 01:18:54,320 --> 01:18:59,160 Speaker 1: Schneider is assassinated, He's shot UM accidentally and layer it 1220 01:18:59,240 --> 01:19:02,960 Speaker 1: dies UH. And the problem then becomes, you know, the 1221 01:19:03,040 --> 01:19:05,920 Speaker 1: nation is horrified, The Chilean nation is horrified at this 1222 01:19:06,479 --> 01:19:11,160 Speaker 1: UM took place. And as a result, then UM ranks 1223 01:19:11,200 --> 01:19:13,880 Speaker 1: are closed around by Ende and it has decided that 1224 01:19:13,960 --> 01:19:17,880 Speaker 1: they will approve his UM candidacy, his election and that 1225 01:19:17,960 --> 01:19:21,680 Speaker 1: he will be affirmed as the president. Um. And you know, 1226 01:19:21,760 --> 01:19:24,680 Speaker 1: also what's happening in the background during the election and 1227 01:19:24,760 --> 01:19:26,680 Speaker 1: during the lead up to that vote is that the 1228 01:19:26,680 --> 01:19:29,840 Speaker 1: Popular Unity coalition has its program. You know, what we 1229 01:19:29,880 --> 01:19:33,800 Speaker 1: would think of as a campaign um sort of platform um. 1230 01:19:33,880 --> 01:19:37,280 Speaker 1: But part of the platform in the Populunities case was 1231 01:19:37,439 --> 01:19:39,400 Speaker 1: what they referred to as the sort of basic agreement 1232 01:19:39,760 --> 01:19:42,960 Speaker 1: between the coalition and the both the people of Chile 1233 01:19:43,040 --> 01:19:45,879 Speaker 1: but also the political system, which in this basic agreement 1234 01:19:45,960 --> 01:19:48,000 Speaker 1: is sort of what we've been discussing this whole time, 1235 01:19:48,040 --> 01:19:54,040 Speaker 1: which is that end would not change fundamentally the political system. Right, 1236 01:19:54,479 --> 01:19:59,400 Speaker 1: any sort of nationalizations, any sort of economic restructuring that 1237 01:19:59,439 --> 01:20:02,320 Speaker 1: they would at she for that they would try to 1238 01:20:02,360 --> 01:20:06,559 Speaker 1: achieve in Chile would be taken, would take place, would 1239 01:20:06,560 --> 01:20:09,840 Speaker 1: be used or one through the halls of concress. Right, 1240 01:20:09,960 --> 01:20:14,759 Speaker 1: everything would be legislated. Everything would still be from main um, 1241 01:20:14,800 --> 01:20:18,400 Speaker 1: the sort of Chilean government as normal. Right. This is 1242 01:20:18,400 --> 01:20:21,680 Speaker 1: where you get ends famous phrase that the revolution is 1243 01:20:21,720 --> 01:20:23,960 Speaker 1: going to be with infant us and be tinto right 1244 01:20:24,040 --> 01:20:27,880 Speaker 1: with meat pies and red wine, um, which means, you know, 1245 01:20:27,920 --> 01:20:31,800 Speaker 1: it's essentially not going to be a revolution of deprivation right, 1246 01:20:32,120 --> 01:20:35,760 Speaker 1: it's not going to be a revolution that fundamentally changes 1247 01:20:36,160 --> 01:20:41,080 Speaker 1: the structures of everyday life in Chile. This has when 1248 01:20:41,160 --> 01:20:43,720 Speaker 1: they could happen here. Join us tomorrow for part two 1249 01:20:43,760 --> 01:20:46,880 Speaker 1: of this interview, where we walk through the Chilean Revolution, 1250 01:20:46,960 --> 01:20:50,640 Speaker 1: the Cordons, and their lasting impact in society. If you 1251 01:20:50,680 --> 01:20:52,400 Speaker 1: want to find more of Nicholas's work, he has an 1252 01:20:52,479 --> 01:20:54,120 Speaker 1: article coming out in the next week or so and 1253 01:20:54,160 --> 01:20:56,839 Speaker 1: then made by History section of the Washington Post connecting 1254 01:20:56,840 --> 01:20:59,960 Speaker 1: the revolutionary period and the broader struggle for a dignity 1255 01:21:00,040 --> 01:21:02,840 Speaker 1: find Life to the modern inclusion of social rights in 1256 01:21:02,880 --> 01:21:06,519 Speaker 1: the proposed new post uprising Leighan Constitution. You can find 1257 01:21:06,520 --> 01:21:08,840 Speaker 1: more of us that happened here, pond on Twitter, Instagram, 1258 01:21:08,960 --> 01:21:11,920 Speaker 1: And we have two new podcasts coming out. The first 1259 01:21:12,000 --> 01:21:15,000 Speaker 1: is Ghost Church, hosted by the inimitable Jamie Loftus. It's 1260 01:21:15,040 --> 01:21:17,799 Speaker 1: a it's a deep look at the historical contemporary practice 1261 01:21:17,800 --> 01:21:22,120 Speaker 1: of spiritualism and mediums who talked to ghosts. It is wonderful. 1262 01:21:22,240 --> 01:21:24,080 Speaker 1: Jamie is one of the best podcasters ever do it 1263 01:21:24,120 --> 01:21:26,639 Speaker 1: and the first episode is out right now. You can 1264 01:21:26,680 --> 01:21:30,240 Speaker 1: find Ghost Church wherever find podcasts are distributed. Second on 1265 01:21:30,360 --> 01:21:32,759 Speaker 1: May Day, which is which is this Sunday, May one, 1266 01:21:32,800 --> 01:21:35,400 Speaker 1: the first episode of the Great Margaret Killjoy's new podcast 1267 01:21:35,479 --> 01:21:38,280 Speaker 1: Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff is dropping. It's about 1268 01:21:38,479 --> 01:21:41,760 Speaker 1: well what the title says, that's the coolest revolutionaries, desperadoes 1269 01:21:41,760 --> 01:21:43,840 Speaker 1: and ordinary people in the right place and the right 1270 01:21:43,920 --> 01:21:47,559 Speaker 1: time doing extremely cool stuff. And it's happening every Monday 1271 01:21:47,600 --> 01:21:49,920 Speaker 1: and Wednesday from here on out. So go give it. 1272 01:21:49,960 --> 01:21:51,439 Speaker 1: Listen when the traps on May Day. It is going 1273 01:21:51,479 --> 01:21:53,400 Speaker 1: to be great, and yeah, it is, it is. It 1274 01:21:53,479 --> 01:21:56,200 Speaker 1: is a great time to be podcasting. There are there 1275 01:21:56,200 --> 01:21:59,479 Speaker 1: are many podcasts, so go listen to them now after 1276 01:21:59,520 --> 01:22:17,519 Speaker 1: you're done with this one. Welcome to it Happen here 1277 01:22:18,080 --> 01:22:21,519 Speaker 1: a show that is once again today about the Chilean Revolution. Um, 1278 01:22:21,560 --> 01:22:26,519 Speaker 1: here's part two of my interview with Nicholas Scott. Yeah, 1279 01:22:26,520 --> 01:22:28,040 Speaker 1: I guess, I guess the next thing you should look 1280 01:22:28,040 --> 01:22:34,840 Speaker 1: at is like how how Yeah, it's exactly you know. 1281 01:22:35,520 --> 01:22:38,360 Speaker 1: The Essentially, by the end of Allende's first year, things 1282 01:22:38,479 --> 01:22:42,360 Speaker 1: are looking very promising. So a few victories, more than 1283 01:22:42,400 --> 01:22:44,599 Speaker 1: a few victories, but a few key victories take place 1284 01:22:44,640 --> 01:22:48,479 Speaker 1: in his first year in office. In one he submits 1285 01:22:48,479 --> 01:22:51,760 Speaker 1: his plan for the nationalization of the nation's mineral wealth, 1286 01:22:52,040 --> 01:22:58,040 Speaker 1: which is voted unanimously in Congress, which speaks to the 1287 01:22:58,200 --> 01:23:03,160 Speaker 1: level of broad support for Chile having its own national 1288 01:23:03,200 --> 01:23:06,519 Speaker 1: sovereignty over its own resources. Right. And this also then 1289 01:23:06,560 --> 01:23:09,000 Speaker 1: connects with sort of the theme that we've been developing 1290 01:23:09,000 --> 01:23:11,280 Speaker 1: this whole time, which is the sort of trends in 1291 01:23:11,360 --> 01:23:16,120 Speaker 1: regional and global similarities between Chile and elsewhere. Right. A 1292 01:23:16,200 --> 01:23:18,799 Speaker 1: lot of the Third World movement, a lot of countries 1293 01:23:18,840 --> 01:23:21,160 Speaker 1: in the so called Third World at that time are 1294 01:23:21,240 --> 01:23:26,479 Speaker 1: looking to nationalization as the way to extricate themselves from 1295 01:23:26,479 --> 01:23:29,520 Speaker 1: what they viewed as being in a relationship of dependency 1296 01:23:30,000 --> 01:23:33,120 Speaker 1: to circuits of global capitalism. Right. You have this whole 1297 01:23:33,160 --> 01:23:37,160 Speaker 1: idea of dependency theory that comes out of Latin America 1298 01:23:37,600 --> 01:23:42,680 Speaker 1: in specific UM. And the solution then is seen to 1299 01:23:43,280 --> 01:23:46,960 Speaker 1: be able to control one's own natural resources uh and 1300 01:23:46,960 --> 01:23:50,840 Speaker 1: and use that wealth to develop its own national industry. Right. 1301 01:23:50,880 --> 01:23:53,799 Speaker 1: This would overcome the sort of bottlenext in the imports 1302 01:23:53,840 --> 01:23:58,160 Speaker 1: institution model UM as well as allowing for more redistributive 1303 01:23:58,640 --> 01:24:03,479 Speaker 1: UMM structure of wealth and or land within the individual 1304 01:24:03,479 --> 01:24:08,000 Speaker 1: countries themselves. So he gets his mineral wealth UM nationalization past. 1305 01:24:08,640 --> 01:24:11,840 Speaker 1: The Popular Unity Coalition also wins a series of off 1306 01:24:11,840 --> 01:24:15,360 Speaker 1: fear or by elections at the local level, Um and 1307 01:24:15,400 --> 01:24:21,800 Speaker 1: wins them so successfully that they will eschew a alliance 1308 01:24:21,920 --> 01:24:26,200 Speaker 1: with the Christian Democrats, who are not part of the coalition, 1309 01:24:26,240 --> 01:24:28,479 Speaker 1: the popular unew coalition, but they are also at this 1310 01:24:28,560 --> 01:24:31,920 Speaker 1: time not part of the opposition, which is largely controlled 1311 01:24:31,960 --> 01:24:35,360 Speaker 1: by the Nationalist Party. They're sort of somewhere in the middle, 1312 01:24:35,720 --> 01:24:37,479 Speaker 1: but they're also in the point in the middle in 1313 01:24:37,479 --> 01:24:40,920 Speaker 1: which they control a large share of the Congress as 1314 01:24:40,920 --> 01:24:44,880 Speaker 1: well as the courts themselves, so they will not So 1315 01:24:44,920 --> 01:24:47,040 Speaker 1: the Popularly Unique Coalition is sort of buoyed by that. 1316 01:24:47,120 --> 01:24:49,799 Speaker 1: What it sees is the success at the ballot box, 1317 01:24:50,160 --> 01:24:52,879 Speaker 1: and it sees its success is getting its plans passed, 1318 01:24:53,560 --> 01:24:56,120 Speaker 1: and so they will issue an alliance with the Christian Democrats. 1319 01:24:56,240 --> 01:24:58,559 Speaker 1: And then the sort of other main thing that takes 1320 01:24:58,600 --> 01:25:01,040 Speaker 1: place in the ninety one is the ad is able 1321 01:25:01,120 --> 01:25:06,599 Speaker 1: to affect using macroeconomic policies that were functionally Canesianism right, 1322 01:25:07,000 --> 01:25:13,120 Speaker 1: Um in his economic Minister Pedro Guskovic Um will essentially 1323 01:25:13,160 --> 01:25:17,719 Speaker 1: allow for a redistribution of wealth in which workers received 1324 01:25:17,800 --> 01:25:22,200 Speaker 1: sort of um what they could what we can consider bonuses, right, 1325 01:25:22,240 --> 01:25:25,800 Speaker 1: but sort of automatic increases um that we're affected from 1326 01:25:25,800 --> 01:25:29,360 Speaker 1: the top down in wages across UH. And the historian 1327 01:25:29,360 --> 01:25:33,479 Speaker 1: Peter Wynn who published the sort of landmark study UM 1328 01:25:33,680 --> 01:25:37,000 Speaker 1: that really dominated the field of the history and the 1329 01:25:37,080 --> 01:25:39,720 Speaker 1: historiography of the Popular Unity years. He published a book 1330 01:25:39,720 --> 01:25:43,400 Speaker 1: called The Leaverse of Revolution that looks at the Yor 1331 01:25:43,479 --> 01:25:45,720 Speaker 1: Textile Mill, which was the first mill that I in 1332 01:25:45,840 --> 01:25:51,920 Speaker 1: a nationalizes UM in N And what when found during 1333 01:25:52,000 --> 01:25:54,479 Speaker 1: his research is that, you know, IDAs policies in n 1334 01:25:55,760 --> 01:25:59,280 Speaker 1: allowed a majority of Chileans to purchase bedsheets for the 1335 01:25:59,320 --> 01:26:02,400 Speaker 1: first time in many of their lives. That sheets were 1336 01:26:02,439 --> 01:26:05,680 Speaker 1: not something that the majority of Chileans used, despite the 1337 01:26:05,720 --> 01:26:08,560 Speaker 1: fact that a majority of Chileans worked in the textile 1338 01:26:08,680 --> 01:26:11,519 Speaker 1: industry right the textile industry was one of the most 1339 01:26:11,520 --> 01:26:15,760 Speaker 1: developed industries in Chile at this moment. And so all 1340 01:26:15,760 --> 01:26:18,360 Speaker 1: of these things sort of come together and by the 1341 01:26:18,439 --> 01:26:22,639 Speaker 1: end of the nineteen seventy one signs are looking good. However, 1342 01:26:23,000 --> 01:26:26,200 Speaker 1: by the time sort of nineteen seventy two dawns and 1343 01:26:26,200 --> 01:26:29,040 Speaker 1: as we're getting into the nineteen seventy two cracks are 1344 01:26:29,040 --> 01:26:33,040 Speaker 1: beginning to appear. There's another series of by elections in 1345 01:26:33,080 --> 01:26:36,080 Speaker 1: which the Popular Unity Coalition does not win. The Christian 1346 01:26:36,120 --> 01:26:39,479 Speaker 1: Democrats win UH. The election for the Rector of the 1347 01:26:39,560 --> 01:26:43,200 Speaker 1: University of Chile is a shock defeat for the Popular 1348 01:26:43,240 --> 01:26:47,000 Speaker 1: Unity Coalition and the Christian Democrat wins that UM. As well. 1349 01:26:47,080 --> 01:26:49,639 Speaker 1: As in nineteen seventy two, there is for the first 1350 01:26:49,680 --> 01:26:56,040 Speaker 1: time in the nation's history, the Central Workers Federation of Labor, 1351 01:26:56,080 --> 01:26:58,960 Speaker 1: the COOT has for the first time its own UM 1352 01:26:59,240 --> 01:27:01,519 Speaker 1: open elections for its leadership. It was the first time 1353 01:27:01,520 --> 01:27:05,200 Speaker 1: the rank and file could elect the leadership of the 1354 01:27:05,280 --> 01:27:09,800 Speaker 1: National Labor Confederation, and the Communist win the largest majority 1355 01:27:09,880 --> 01:27:13,640 Speaker 1: and the Socialists come in second, but just below the Socialists, 1356 01:27:13,680 --> 01:27:16,000 Speaker 1: and at the percentage level it was functionally the same 1357 01:27:16,120 --> 01:27:20,000 Speaker 1: where the Christian Democrats, so much so that basically a 1358 01:27:20,160 --> 01:27:23,080 Speaker 1: court that the Popular Unique Coalition sees that a quarter 1359 01:27:23,360 --> 01:27:30,120 Speaker 1: of the working class of Chile identifies as a Christian Democrat. Meanwhile, economically, 1360 01:27:30,360 --> 01:27:34,559 Speaker 1: things are beginning to stall out. Inflation is beginning to 1361 01:27:34,600 --> 01:27:39,040 Speaker 1: creep back up. UM production is not necessarily at the 1362 01:27:39,120 --> 01:27:44,040 Speaker 1: levels that UM the government would want it to be at. Right, 1363 01:27:44,080 --> 01:27:46,879 Speaker 1: so the idea of winning the battle of production begins 1364 01:27:47,360 --> 01:27:50,559 Speaker 1: becomes the sort of watchword or rallying cry in nineteen 1365 01:27:50,600 --> 01:27:55,120 Speaker 1: seventy two. Uh, And if the successes of nineteen one 1366 01:27:55,200 --> 01:27:58,479 Speaker 1: had somewhat papered over the sectarian differences that we were 1367 01:27:58,479 --> 01:28:02,200 Speaker 1: discussing earlier between say, the minists and socialists, by nineteen 1368 01:28:02,200 --> 01:28:06,439 Speaker 1: seventy two, those secretary differences are really spilling out into 1369 01:28:06,479 --> 01:28:13,559 Speaker 1: public view. So in mid nineteen you have the Communist Party, 1370 01:28:13,920 --> 01:28:16,599 Speaker 1: um member of the Communist Party is also a member 1371 01:28:16,640 --> 01:28:19,840 Speaker 1: of the allen A government, or Orlando MEAs Pens and 1372 01:28:20,040 --> 01:28:24,960 Speaker 1: editorial in which he essentially calls for the party, for 1373 01:28:25,040 --> 01:28:30,120 Speaker 1: the coalition to sort of close ranks, to consolidate its games, 1374 01:28:30,280 --> 01:28:32,640 Speaker 1: to reach out to the Christian Democrats, to make an 1375 01:28:32,640 --> 01:28:36,360 Speaker 1: alliance and use that sort of consolidated alliance as the 1376 01:28:36,400 --> 01:28:41,479 Speaker 1: way to move forward on in the revolutionary path. The Socialists, however, 1377 01:28:41,600 --> 01:28:44,680 Speaker 1: specifically the left wing of the Socialist Party, which was 1378 01:28:44,760 --> 01:28:48,080 Speaker 1: sort of identified with Carlo Carlos Ultimarano at the time, 1379 01:28:49,200 --> 01:28:52,680 Speaker 1: takes the opposite approach and says that, no, the solution 1380 01:28:52,760 --> 01:28:57,280 Speaker 1: isn't to consolidate to advance. Uh. The solution is to 1381 01:28:57,320 --> 01:29:01,120 Speaker 1: advance and consolidate by advancing. In other words, we shouldn't 1382 01:29:01,120 --> 01:29:03,599 Speaker 1: try to make an alliance with the Christian Democrats, because 1383 01:29:03,640 --> 01:29:06,800 Speaker 1: in their view, the Christian Democrats were just bourgeois right, 1384 01:29:07,320 --> 01:29:10,879 Speaker 1: that we should essentially align ourselves with the popular classes, 1385 01:29:10,960 --> 01:29:14,600 Speaker 1: with the world laborers that are meeting charge of the 1386 01:29:14,600 --> 01:29:17,880 Speaker 1: agrarian reform that's picking up speed rapidly in the countryside 1387 01:29:17,880 --> 01:29:21,040 Speaker 1: at this time right see, land seizures are taking place 1388 01:29:21,240 --> 01:29:25,080 Speaker 1: much more rapidly. Now, we should also place our alliances 1389 01:29:25,160 --> 01:29:29,120 Speaker 1: with the popular working classes, which at that moment, at 1390 01:29:29,120 --> 01:29:31,880 Speaker 1: the moment that this polemic is playing out in the 1391 01:29:31,920 --> 01:29:34,880 Speaker 1: press of Chile, is the very same moment do you 1392 01:29:34,880 --> 01:29:40,760 Speaker 1: have the first cordoon industrial emerged in citys Maipo uh. 1393 01:29:40,800 --> 01:29:43,600 Speaker 1: And it's into that sort of fractured moment that you 1394 01:29:43,640 --> 01:29:47,280 Speaker 1: have workers from a couple of plants that just happened 1395 01:29:47,360 --> 01:29:50,679 Speaker 1: to meet serendipitous lee on the steps of the Labor 1396 01:29:50,720 --> 01:29:55,080 Speaker 1: Ministry one day in Um about May of nineteen seventy two. 1397 01:29:55,880 --> 01:29:58,880 Speaker 1: They had both been on strike and had both been 1398 01:29:58,960 --> 01:30:02,400 Speaker 1: demanding their incorporation into what was referred to as the 1399 01:30:02,439 --> 01:30:06,280 Speaker 1: Social Property Area, which this was a Day's vision for 1400 01:30:06,439 --> 01:30:09,080 Speaker 1: creating a socialist economy, and this was a plan that 1401 01:30:09,120 --> 01:30:11,880 Speaker 1: he had submitted to the Congress to restructure the Chilean 1402 01:30:11,920 --> 01:30:15,320 Speaker 1: economy into three parts. There would have a social property 1403 01:30:15,320 --> 01:30:17,439 Speaker 1: area that would be owned and operated by the state, 1404 01:30:18,040 --> 01:30:20,360 Speaker 1: You'd have a mixed property area that would be a 1405 01:30:20,400 --> 01:30:24,519 Speaker 1: sort of mixture between the state and private indistry. And 1406 01:30:24,520 --> 01:30:26,600 Speaker 1: you'd have a private property area which would just be 1407 01:30:26,720 --> 01:30:32,400 Speaker 1: business as usual private enterprise. Um. Ultimately, that plan had 1408 01:30:32,439 --> 01:30:36,080 Speaker 1: been stalled out because of opposition from the Christian Democrats 1409 01:30:36,800 --> 01:30:40,880 Speaker 1: that vetoed it and submitted their own alternative strategy, which 1410 01:30:40,920 --> 01:30:44,840 Speaker 1: then I end a vetoed became a constitutional crisis that 1411 01:30:44,880 --> 01:30:48,320 Speaker 1: got remanded to the Constitutional Tribunal in Chile, which ultimately 1412 01:30:48,560 --> 01:30:52,240 Speaker 1: languished there through the end of the Enda government through 1413 01:30:52,360 --> 01:30:57,160 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy three during the coup, has never really resolved. Nevertheless, 1414 01:30:57,760 --> 01:31:01,680 Speaker 1: workers saw the ability to be in put into the 1415 01:31:01,720 --> 01:31:05,439 Speaker 1: social property area as the solution to what they perceived 1416 01:31:05,520 --> 01:31:10,559 Speaker 1: as a revolutionary socialism, right to be in a socialized economy. 1417 01:31:10,640 --> 01:31:13,200 Speaker 1: And I mentioned earlier Peter Win's work on the Order 1418 01:31:13,360 --> 01:31:16,080 Speaker 1: Textile mill. That's exactly what the workers at Yard or 1419 01:31:16,320 --> 01:31:19,560 Speaker 1: did they decided to do. Now that is in opposition 1420 01:31:19,640 --> 01:31:22,240 Speaker 1: to all End and the Popular Unity's plan, which was 1421 01:31:22,600 --> 01:31:26,439 Speaker 1: to put these sort of grand monopolies in the social 1422 01:31:26,439 --> 01:31:31,559 Speaker 1: property area, not necessarily smaller industries such as such as 1423 01:31:31,600 --> 01:31:35,040 Speaker 1: the yard or textile mill in particular UM. There were 1424 01:31:35,080 --> 01:31:38,960 Speaker 1: other perhaps textile companies that have inslated for incorporation. But 1425 01:31:39,040 --> 01:31:42,479 Speaker 1: the problem is that the workers successfully petitioned UM and 1426 01:31:42,640 --> 01:31:47,320 Speaker 1: pressured Allende and one there incorporation, and that unleashed what 1427 01:31:47,400 --> 01:31:50,400 Speaker 1: Win would refer to as a revolution from below. And 1428 01:31:50,479 --> 01:31:53,400 Speaker 1: that's what allowed the workers who sees the Labor Ministry 1429 01:31:53,439 --> 01:31:58,320 Speaker 1: that day in nineteen to demand their incorporation into the 1430 01:31:58,320 --> 01:32:00,960 Speaker 1: social property area, because there was a a law on 1431 01:32:01,040 --> 01:32:04,000 Speaker 1: the books in Chile that stated that if there was 1432 01:32:04,000 --> 01:32:07,120 Speaker 1: an unresolved labor conflict of the factory, that the state 1433 01:32:07,160 --> 01:32:11,799 Speaker 1: could intervene and essentially make state control of that factory, 1434 01:32:11,800 --> 01:32:14,400 Speaker 1: which would be the first step to them being incorporated 1435 01:32:14,680 --> 01:32:18,479 Speaker 1: into the social property area. And so it's out of 1436 01:32:18,479 --> 01:32:21,920 Speaker 1: that happenstance meeting on the doors to the Labor Ministry 1437 01:32:21,920 --> 01:32:24,920 Speaker 1: when they seize it and take it over, shut it down. UM. 1438 01:32:24,960 --> 01:32:28,160 Speaker 1: That then the workers of this industrial sector on the 1439 01:32:28,160 --> 01:32:32,280 Speaker 1: west of Santiago begin meeting, and they begin collaborating, and 1440 01:32:32,320 --> 01:32:35,920 Speaker 1: they begin organizing themselves territorially. And I guess this is 1441 01:32:35,960 --> 01:32:38,559 Speaker 1: a good moment to apologize to our listeners that never 1442 01:32:38,600 --> 01:32:40,800 Speaker 1: really gave a good definition as to what a court 1443 01:32:40,840 --> 01:32:45,360 Speaker 1: owned industryal was in practice. Essentially, the sort of wager 1444 01:32:45,520 --> 01:32:49,800 Speaker 1: of this organization was that you could organize yourself territorially 1445 01:32:50,200 --> 01:32:53,200 Speaker 1: rather than by trade or industry right, which would be 1446 01:32:53,200 --> 01:32:57,160 Speaker 1: the traditional way that a union would be structured. Um, 1447 01:32:57,280 --> 01:33:01,320 Speaker 1: metal workers organized with metal workers, class workers organized with 1448 01:33:01,360 --> 01:33:04,479 Speaker 1: the class workers, textile etcetera, etcetera. Um, and never the 1449 01:33:04,560 --> 01:33:09,200 Speaker 1: twain shall meet in practice right, It's all through bureaucratic structures, 1450 01:33:09,680 --> 01:33:12,599 Speaker 1: labor leaders, etcetera. As I mentioned, it wasn't until nineteen 1451 01:33:12,640 --> 01:33:15,960 Speaker 1: seventy two that the rank and file is ever able 1452 01:33:16,000 --> 01:33:20,679 Speaker 1: to vote themselves for their own national leadership. And so 1453 01:33:20,960 --> 01:33:23,080 Speaker 1: the idea of these workers is that they're going to 1454 01:33:23,200 --> 01:33:26,960 Speaker 1: create their sort of new form of organization, and after 1455 01:33:27,800 --> 01:33:30,360 Speaker 1: you know, deciding to do it, they seize the territory 1456 01:33:30,520 --> 01:33:34,679 Speaker 1: of so Smaipoo. They shut down traffic, and this road 1457 01:33:34,880 --> 01:33:37,120 Speaker 1: that they seize is one of the main roads into 1458 01:33:37,160 --> 01:33:40,160 Speaker 1: the city of Santiago from the west, which means that 1459 01:33:40,200 --> 01:33:44,160 Speaker 1: the government had to respond immediately. As one worker, uh 1460 01:33:44,400 --> 01:33:46,880 Speaker 1: not worker one government official put it at the time, 1461 01:33:47,080 --> 01:33:50,960 Speaker 1: the workers were in the streets. We had to respond, right, 1462 01:33:51,040 --> 01:33:53,840 Speaker 1: you're you're a government that it claims to represent the 1463 01:33:53,840 --> 01:33:56,400 Speaker 1: working class. You're a government that it claims to be 1464 01:33:56,439 --> 01:33:58,920 Speaker 1: putting yourself on the road to socialism. And the workers 1465 01:33:58,920 --> 01:34:01,760 Speaker 1: have now cut off trans rotation into the city UM 1466 01:34:01,800 --> 01:34:05,479 Speaker 1: and demanding sort of you to fulfill your promise, and 1467 01:34:05,560 --> 01:34:09,519 Speaker 1: so they had to respond UM. Ultimately, some of the 1468 01:34:09,520 --> 01:34:11,840 Speaker 1: workers that were striking at the time, specifically from the 1469 01:34:11,880 --> 01:34:15,479 Speaker 1: Perlack company, which was canning company UH, they did win 1470 01:34:15,960 --> 01:34:20,439 Speaker 1: the incorporation into the Social Property Area UM. And however, 1471 01:34:20,720 --> 01:34:24,240 Speaker 1: other workers UM from other factories in the area did 1472 01:34:24,280 --> 01:34:28,840 Speaker 1: not win their incorporation, which then produced a march into 1473 01:34:28,880 --> 01:34:31,519 Speaker 1: the city of Santiago in late June, and it also 1474 01:34:31,640 --> 01:34:34,479 Speaker 1: produced a platform of struggle by what was referred to 1475 01:34:34,479 --> 01:34:38,040 Speaker 1: as the Workers Command of criosm PROU And that's really 1476 01:34:38,080 --> 01:34:41,559 Speaker 1: the first document we have UM that shows that there 1477 01:34:41,640 --> 01:34:45,599 Speaker 1: is this new structure that is demanding that the government 1478 01:34:45,640 --> 01:34:49,640 Speaker 1: fulfill its promise, live up to its basic program UM. 1479 01:34:49,680 --> 01:34:52,240 Speaker 1: Now following that moment, however, there's sort of a period 1480 01:34:52,240 --> 01:34:55,679 Speaker 1: of demobilization that takes place in sort of mid ninet 1481 01:34:56,960 --> 01:35:00,160 Speaker 1: and it's really not until October nineteen seventy two, that 1482 01:35:00,240 --> 01:35:03,280 Speaker 1: you have the flourishing of this new form of organization 1483 01:35:03,320 --> 01:35:07,840 Speaker 1: of the Cortona industrial across the city of Santiago. And 1484 01:35:07,880 --> 01:35:10,880 Speaker 1: the reason that it takes place in October two is 1485 01:35:10,880 --> 01:35:14,679 Speaker 1: because that's the moment that the opposition launches its first 1486 01:35:15,200 --> 01:35:19,200 Speaker 1: concerted effort to try and topple the Illenda government. That's 1487 01:35:19,240 --> 01:35:21,879 Speaker 1: what's referred to as the Boss of Strike. And essentially 1488 01:35:21,920 --> 01:35:25,120 Speaker 1: what happens is there's a localized strike of truckers in 1489 01:35:25,160 --> 01:35:29,040 Speaker 1: the far South of Chile and the sort of business 1490 01:35:29,120 --> 01:35:33,720 Speaker 1: elites of the country are successful in transforming what is 1491 01:35:33,720 --> 01:35:37,080 Speaker 1: a very localized strike in the far South into a 1492 01:35:37,160 --> 01:35:40,479 Speaker 1: global lockout on the part of business owners. Right, so 1493 01:35:40,520 --> 01:35:44,960 Speaker 1: they'll shutter factories, they'll shutter distribution centers of food stuffs, 1494 01:35:45,080 --> 01:35:48,280 Speaker 1: they'll completely shut down transportation networks in the city of 1495 01:35:48,320 --> 01:35:51,200 Speaker 1: Santiago and other cities across the country. UM. So you 1496 01:35:51,200 --> 01:35:54,480 Speaker 1: can understand why they would call it the Boss of strike. Um. 1497 01:35:54,520 --> 01:35:56,879 Speaker 1: And this is the moment then that you have workers 1498 01:35:56,920 --> 01:35:59,840 Speaker 1: in these industrial zones that we start began our conversation 1499 01:35:59,880 --> 01:36:03,240 Speaker 1: with using this model that emerged in the southwest of 1500 01:36:03,560 --> 01:36:08,160 Speaker 1: Santiago as this new model to seize their factories that 1501 01:36:08,200 --> 01:36:11,720 Speaker 1: they've been locked out of, to reorganize the production of 1502 01:36:11,800 --> 01:36:17,000 Speaker 1: their factories and to ensure distribution, uh you know, takes 1503 01:36:17,000 --> 01:36:20,680 Speaker 1: place of basic goods and services for local residents in 1504 01:36:20,720 --> 01:36:24,240 Speaker 1: their community. It's really what allows the end a government 1505 01:36:24,240 --> 01:36:28,000 Speaker 1: to whether the storm of the October strike and the 1506 01:36:28,040 --> 01:36:31,880 Speaker 1: October crisis as it will also be known um ultimately 1507 01:36:32,120 --> 01:36:34,720 Speaker 1: you know, that will reach a truce in November that 1508 01:36:34,760 --> 01:36:38,920 Speaker 1: includes a cabinet shake up, also includes integrating the military 1509 01:36:39,040 --> 01:36:42,360 Speaker 1: into the cabinet um as well as Ada was able 1510 01:36:42,400 --> 01:36:44,599 Speaker 1: to deploy the military to sort of keep the peace 1511 01:36:45,000 --> 01:36:47,720 Speaker 1: in some senses. So there is a historiographical debate to 1512 01:36:47,720 --> 01:36:50,040 Speaker 1: be had between you know, how much of it was 1513 01:36:50,160 --> 01:36:53,479 Speaker 1: the workers and the cordonis saving the country and saving 1514 01:36:53,600 --> 01:36:55,720 Speaker 1: the government, and how much of it was the military 1515 01:36:56,160 --> 01:36:58,320 Speaker 1: remaining loyal to the government that allows them to sort 1516 01:36:58,320 --> 01:37:00,799 Speaker 1: of reach was referred to as the truth of November. 1517 01:37:01,920 --> 01:37:04,519 Speaker 1: So I guess I want to back up for a 1518 01:37:04,600 --> 01:37:08,680 Speaker 1: second and talk about what is the intern organization of 1519 01:37:08,720 --> 01:37:11,480 Speaker 1: the criticize actually look like, Like are we talking about counsels? 1520 01:37:11,600 --> 01:37:14,280 Speaker 1: Is this mass assemblies? Um? How how how does this 1521 01:37:14,320 --> 01:37:15,960 Speaker 1: actually work on a sort of like day to day 1522 01:37:16,000 --> 01:37:19,000 Speaker 1: basis the great question, and this is actually the question 1523 01:37:19,080 --> 01:37:22,480 Speaker 1: that has sort of dominated a lot of the scholarship 1524 01:37:22,520 --> 01:37:25,800 Speaker 1: on the Cordonists. Um Frank going to shoot, who is 1525 01:37:25,840 --> 01:37:30,759 Speaker 1: sort of the leading scholar of the Cordonists essentially used 1526 01:37:31,080 --> 01:37:34,120 Speaker 1: Marx's distinction of a class in itself and a class 1527 01:37:34,120 --> 01:37:37,240 Speaker 1: for itself to sort of unraveled this question. So, for 1528 01:37:37,840 --> 01:37:40,920 Speaker 1: we're going to shoot. The Cordona in itself is the 1529 01:37:40,960 --> 01:37:44,040 Speaker 1: sort of territory, right that we began our conversation with. 1530 01:37:44,280 --> 01:37:47,360 Speaker 1: And then the Cordona for itself is essentially the workers Council, 1531 01:37:48,000 --> 01:37:51,080 Speaker 1: that is the governing body of the Cordona itself, which 1532 01:37:51,120 --> 01:37:56,080 Speaker 1: was composed of already unionized workers, right, so it already 1533 01:37:56,160 --> 01:37:59,639 Speaker 1: is a tier of working class above say just your 1534 01:37:59,680 --> 01:38:02,120 Speaker 1: general a worker that worked on the factory floor. So 1535 01:38:02,160 --> 01:38:05,600 Speaker 1: it's already a unionized worker. And some of that occupies 1536 01:38:05,640 --> 01:38:09,000 Speaker 1: a power or a position of authority within the union, 1537 01:38:09,040 --> 01:38:12,679 Speaker 1: i e. Already a or on the directorate or president, 1538 01:38:12,760 --> 01:38:17,040 Speaker 1: vice president, treasurer, or secretary, so that main councils are 1539 01:38:17,080 --> 01:38:19,800 Speaker 1: elected within the sort of general assembly of the court 1540 01:38:19,880 --> 01:38:23,840 Speaker 1: on itself. Below you have then different commissions, right, you 1541 01:38:23,880 --> 01:38:26,320 Speaker 1: have a sort of propaganda press commission. You have a 1542 01:38:26,360 --> 01:38:30,799 Speaker 1: Cultural commission, you have a sports commission, you have a 1543 01:38:30,840 --> 01:38:33,400 Speaker 1: security commission, right because at this time you had far 1544 01:38:33,520 --> 01:38:37,479 Speaker 1: right shock troops that would spark street battles and that 1545 01:38:37,520 --> 01:38:40,800 Speaker 1: would harass workers, that would also attack factories that had 1546 01:38:40,800 --> 01:38:44,759 Speaker 1: been seized, so that they had um Security Commission, frontline 1547 01:38:44,760 --> 01:38:48,720 Speaker 1: Defense Commission. You also had distribution commissions, uh, and then 1548 01:38:48,760 --> 01:38:52,720 Speaker 1: you had other commissions that would essentially seek to coordinate 1549 01:38:52,800 --> 01:38:55,160 Speaker 1: all of this um that exists. So you had a 1550 01:38:55,200 --> 01:38:58,400 Speaker 1: sort of coordinating board just below the sort of general council. 1551 01:38:58,760 --> 01:39:01,479 Speaker 1: And then that's what was the mediation point between that 1552 01:39:01,520 --> 01:39:04,599 Speaker 1: sort of governing council and your different commissions. How how 1553 01:39:04,600 --> 01:39:06,200 Speaker 1: are the people who are like who are on these 1554 01:39:06,200 --> 01:39:09,240 Speaker 1: commissions selected? Are they like, are they elected or is 1555 01:39:09,280 --> 01:39:12,000 Speaker 1: they just like whoever wants to be on this thing? 1556 01:39:13,360 --> 01:39:15,400 Speaker 1: So it's a mix of both, right, So you you're 1557 01:39:15,479 --> 01:39:19,599 Speaker 1: sort of main council itself is elected via general assembly. Um. 1558 01:39:19,640 --> 01:39:22,960 Speaker 1: In terms of the commissions, the smaller commissions, we sadly 1559 01:39:23,000 --> 01:39:26,800 Speaker 1: don't have great documentary evidence that you know, lays out 1560 01:39:26,840 --> 01:39:29,559 Speaker 1: the process for that. So our best guests are our 1561 01:39:29,600 --> 01:39:33,120 Speaker 1: best understanding would be a mix of sort of volunteerism, 1562 01:39:33,160 --> 01:39:36,679 Speaker 1: as well as some sort of UM within the commission itself, 1563 01:39:36,880 --> 01:39:40,679 Speaker 1: some form of election excuse me, that would take place 1564 01:39:40,760 --> 01:39:43,560 Speaker 1: to sort of a point ahead of that commission that 1565 01:39:43,600 --> 01:39:48,559 Speaker 1: would then coordinate with the General Council itself. UM. You know, 1566 01:39:48,640 --> 01:39:50,880 Speaker 1: really what this you know what this sort of cuts 1567 01:39:51,000 --> 01:39:52,960 Speaker 1: the heart of UM is that the history of the 1568 01:39:52,960 --> 01:39:56,960 Speaker 1: Cordinates is a very evervescent history. UM. It's really easy 1569 01:39:57,000 --> 01:39:59,840 Speaker 1: to see the Cordinates in action, right when they're doing 1570 01:40:00,000 --> 01:40:03,800 Speaker 1: things like seizing control of their territory and erecting barricades. 1571 01:40:04,320 --> 01:40:07,240 Speaker 1: But on that day to day level, it's a relatively 1572 01:40:07,280 --> 01:40:11,120 Speaker 1: opaque sort of structure. It's really hard for us as 1573 01:40:11,200 --> 01:40:14,200 Speaker 1: historians to get a view into that. You know. One 1574 01:40:14,240 --> 01:40:19,000 Speaker 1: reason the Good Shoot is able to you know, unpack 1575 01:40:19,040 --> 01:40:20,960 Speaker 1: as much as he has and uncover as much as 1576 01:40:20,960 --> 01:40:23,639 Speaker 1: he has is because he conducted a series of oral 1577 01:40:23,720 --> 01:40:28,960 Speaker 1: history interviews, UM with many of the surviving workers. UM. 1578 01:40:28,960 --> 01:40:32,000 Speaker 1: And that's really one of the foundational source spaces we have. 1579 01:40:32,520 --> 01:40:34,840 Speaker 1: He published this in a book in which he published 1580 01:40:34,880 --> 01:40:37,439 Speaker 1: the full transcript of his interviews, so we don't it's 1581 01:40:37,439 --> 01:40:41,240 Speaker 1: not just like an interpretive essay, it's the full transcript UM. 1582 01:40:41,280 --> 01:40:44,160 Speaker 1: And so that's that, in combination with some of these 1583 01:40:44,520 --> 01:40:50,160 Speaker 1: coordinates had local presses that we have existing UM documentary 1584 01:40:50,200 --> 01:40:53,160 Speaker 1: evidence from that sort of would give you know, your 1585 01:40:53,200 --> 01:40:58,600 Speaker 1: standard diagram of council commission, commission, commission lines connecting them 1586 01:40:58,640 --> 01:41:01,439 Speaker 1: and things like that. UM. But one of the other 1587 01:41:01,680 --> 01:41:04,439 Speaker 1: few documents that we have surviving documents we have is 1588 01:41:04,479 --> 01:41:07,679 Speaker 1: what's referred to as the Manifesto of Cordona Folcuna Macana. 1589 01:41:08,200 --> 01:41:11,160 Speaker 1: And this is the document that my research really is 1590 01:41:11,160 --> 01:41:14,760 Speaker 1: at the heart of my research UM because while the 1591 01:41:14,920 --> 01:41:17,160 Speaker 1: Unamacana is recognized as sort of one of the most 1592 01:41:17,200 --> 01:41:21,920 Speaker 1: dynamic and strongest of the cordonas behind the original and studios, 1593 01:41:21,960 --> 01:41:25,280 Speaker 1: my poo, we really don't have a lot. We don't 1594 01:41:25,280 --> 01:41:27,400 Speaker 1: know a lot about what was going on in there. 1595 01:41:27,439 --> 01:41:30,200 Speaker 1: In fact, my research was born out of a conversation 1596 01:41:30,600 --> 01:41:33,280 Speaker 1: the first time I was in Chile conducting research for 1597 01:41:33,400 --> 01:41:37,280 Speaker 1: my master's at toughs UM with good to Shoot himself 1598 01:41:37,280 --> 01:41:39,240 Speaker 1: who told me that, like, we really don't know a 1599 01:41:39,280 --> 01:41:41,479 Speaker 1: lot about what was going on day to day in 1600 01:41:41,479 --> 01:41:44,400 Speaker 1: Folcuna Macana, would be really great if we could somehow 1601 01:41:44,520 --> 01:41:46,800 Speaker 1: find a way to do that. Uh, And you know 1602 01:41:46,800 --> 01:41:48,320 Speaker 1: that kind of stuck with me, that really wasn't my 1603 01:41:48,360 --> 01:41:50,600 Speaker 1: concern at the time. I concerned at the time was 1604 01:41:50,960 --> 01:41:54,639 Speaker 1: trying to understand how the cordonas had shifted from their 1605 01:41:54,640 --> 01:41:58,360 Speaker 1: emergence to the coup itself, because what I was seeing 1606 01:41:58,439 --> 01:42:01,080 Speaker 1: a lot of the literature was that people were using 1607 01:42:01,800 --> 01:42:04,720 Speaker 1: sources from late nineteen seventy three, once the Coralines are 1608 01:42:04,840 --> 01:42:07,720 Speaker 1: established and really showing up and press right, they're showing 1609 01:42:07,760 --> 01:42:09,840 Speaker 1: up in the archive a lot more by nineteen seventy three, 1610 01:42:10,479 --> 01:42:13,200 Speaker 1: and they're using documents from nineteen seventy three to describe 1611 01:42:13,640 --> 01:42:16,120 Speaker 1: they're sort of founding in nineteen seventy two, and the 1612 01:42:16,160 --> 01:42:19,160 Speaker 1: historian and me was kind of like, m hm, you know, yeah, 1613 01:42:19,320 --> 01:42:24,040 Speaker 1: that's things change, right, and things change both over time 1614 01:42:24,120 --> 01:42:26,800 Speaker 1: and space. And so my original concern was, you know, 1615 01:42:26,880 --> 01:42:30,160 Speaker 1: what made the sort of changes from the western side 1616 01:42:30,160 --> 01:42:32,000 Speaker 1: of the Sydney to the eastern side of the city. 1617 01:42:33,080 --> 01:42:34,680 Speaker 1: But then when I got to u v A and 1618 01:42:34,720 --> 01:42:38,240 Speaker 1: began my doctoral work, I really wanted to zero in 1619 01:42:38,400 --> 01:42:41,519 Speaker 1: on Facundamkina, And really I was, you know that that 1620 01:42:41,600 --> 01:42:45,280 Speaker 1: conversation with Frank was really ringing in my head, and 1621 01:42:45,320 --> 01:42:47,960 Speaker 1: so you know, I kinda at u v A had 1622 01:42:47,960 --> 01:42:50,320 Speaker 1: to do another master's essay as part of the program. 1623 01:42:50,320 --> 01:42:53,639 Speaker 1: They there, despite having already done a master's thesis when 1624 01:42:53,640 --> 01:43:00,960 Speaker 1: I was a tough exactly exactly the thesis. But you 1625 01:43:01,000 --> 01:43:03,280 Speaker 1: know what it did, what it allowed me to do, 1626 01:43:03,479 --> 01:43:06,720 Speaker 1: was to uh, you know, kind of play with the 1627 01:43:06,760 --> 01:43:09,479 Speaker 1: sources in ways that I may not have had the 1628 01:43:09,520 --> 01:43:12,679 Speaker 1: ability to do otherwise. Right, And so I really sat 1629 01:43:12,760 --> 01:43:15,679 Speaker 1: with this manifesto for a long period time and really 1630 01:43:15,720 --> 01:43:19,400 Speaker 1: did a close reading of this document, which you know, 1631 01:43:19,439 --> 01:43:21,320 Speaker 1: a lot of times this document has shown up in 1632 01:43:21,320 --> 01:43:24,160 Speaker 1: previous studies. It's shown up as a this is a 1633 01:43:24,240 --> 01:43:27,559 Speaker 1: document that emerges during the October Crisis. It's the document 1634 01:43:27,640 --> 01:43:31,760 Speaker 1: we know we have from this one corzone here, it is, right, 1635 01:43:32,320 --> 01:43:34,880 Speaker 1: But what I uncovered was that the document itself, the 1636 01:43:34,920 --> 01:43:38,120 Speaker 1: document that is headed as the Manifesto, is actually a 1637 01:43:38,200 --> 01:43:42,040 Speaker 1: reworked version of a document that had circulated previously during 1638 01:43:42,040 --> 01:43:47,000 Speaker 1: the October Crisis, that was produced by the Revolutionary Left movement, 1639 01:43:47,080 --> 01:43:53,160 Speaker 1: the Mirror, the Far Left Party and the aren't they rists? 1640 01:43:53,880 --> 01:43:57,080 Speaker 1: They are? They very much are. This is the very 1641 01:43:57,120 --> 01:44:00,559 Speaker 1: far left UM party that has calling for a more 1642 01:44:00,600 --> 01:44:06,559 Speaker 1: insurrectionary model UM. It's also calling for worker peasant alliance. Right, So, 1643 01:44:06,600 --> 01:44:11,960 Speaker 1: it is this very much more traditional um socialist revolutionary 1644 01:44:12,360 --> 01:44:16,200 Speaker 1: in that sense, compared to the sort of aendeist vision 1645 01:44:16,400 --> 01:44:20,360 Speaker 1: of socialism that is being handed down from above. Right. 1646 01:44:20,400 --> 01:44:23,519 Speaker 1: And so during the October crisis, there's this document that 1647 01:44:23,600 --> 01:44:27,640 Speaker 1: circulates by the opposition that's running the crisis that is 1648 01:44:27,720 --> 01:44:33,200 Speaker 1: essentially the petition the plago in Spanish should be the word, 1649 01:44:33,240 --> 01:44:38,240 Speaker 1: but essentially the petition of of Chile um and the 1650 01:44:38,479 --> 01:44:41,960 Speaker 1: mirror takes issue with the fact that the bosses issued 1651 01:44:42,040 --> 01:44:46,240 Speaker 1: a petition in the name of Chile, and so they 1652 01:44:46,240 --> 01:44:51,320 Speaker 1: issue a counter document that is the people's petition, the 1653 01:44:51,320 --> 01:44:54,960 Speaker 1: Pliego del Pueblo. And it's a very long document, it's 1654 01:44:55,000 --> 01:44:59,240 Speaker 1: a very um It reads as a essentially a manifesto 1655 01:44:59,400 --> 01:45:02,519 Speaker 1: for a new revolution to take place, right, like how 1656 01:45:02,560 --> 01:45:07,360 Speaker 1: to transform the present crisis into a revolutionary and breakthrough 1657 01:45:07,840 --> 01:45:11,920 Speaker 1: And as you're saying, a core various model. In the 1658 01:45:11,960 --> 01:45:17,000 Speaker 1: tail end of the October crisis, as Cordonacamacana is consolidating 1659 01:45:17,000 --> 01:45:21,240 Speaker 1: itself right, itself forms after a factory seizure at elec 1660 01:45:21,320 --> 01:45:25,200 Speaker 1: metal Um, which then unites these sort of two nodes 1661 01:45:25,240 --> 01:45:27,240 Speaker 1: that existed in the territory at the north end and 1662 01:45:27,280 --> 01:45:30,640 Speaker 1: the south end into one sort of communication and solidarity 1663 01:45:30,680 --> 01:45:34,680 Speaker 1: network that will then become known as the Cordon that 1664 01:45:34,920 --> 01:45:37,960 Speaker 1: has its first general assembly in which it takes this 1665 01:45:38,040 --> 01:45:41,840 Speaker 1: document from the Mirror and begins to rework it. And 1666 01:45:42,040 --> 01:45:46,720 Speaker 1: that's then what becomes the Manifesto of Cordoncuonamacana. And so 1667 01:45:46,800 --> 01:45:50,080 Speaker 1: in my research and in my master's essay at the 1668 01:45:50,160 --> 01:45:52,519 Speaker 1: University of Virginia, what I did was, you know, I 1669 01:45:52,560 --> 01:45:56,080 Speaker 1: really compared these two documents and looked for where the differences. 1670 01:45:56,520 --> 01:46:00,160 Speaker 1: You know, what's showing up here that's not showing up 1671 01:46:00,160 --> 01:46:04,040 Speaker 1: in the mirors document. In other words, what glimpses can 1672 01:46:04,040 --> 01:46:08,680 Speaker 1: we get of the local culture of Acunamacina itself. Um. 1673 01:46:08,720 --> 01:46:12,240 Speaker 1: And one of the key differences that I find is 1674 01:46:12,280 --> 01:46:16,880 Speaker 1: there's an entire section that begins the manifesto that was 1675 01:46:16,920 --> 01:46:19,400 Speaker 1: the crime of the bosses, the crimes of the bosses, 1676 01:46:19,800 --> 01:46:22,720 Speaker 1: and that exists in the Meryor's document as well. But 1677 01:46:22,840 --> 01:46:28,080 Speaker 1: the crimes that are articulated are far slight differences. But 1678 01:46:28,240 --> 01:46:32,520 Speaker 1: the in the manifesto itself, the final crime that's articulated 1679 01:46:33,080 --> 01:46:36,080 Speaker 1: is that the manifesto reads that it's a crime that 1680 01:46:36,280 --> 01:46:40,720 Speaker 1: the basic few elite in Chile continue to use the 1681 01:46:40,760 --> 01:46:45,840 Speaker 1: country's wealth to support their privileges without giving a dignified 1682 01:46:45,920 --> 01:46:49,400 Speaker 1: life to a majority of joyance. And this doesn't appear 1683 01:46:49,400 --> 01:46:53,559 Speaker 1: anywhere in the Mirrors document. And it was something about 1684 01:46:53,600 --> 01:46:56,200 Speaker 1: this phrase of a dignified life that really just like 1685 01:46:56,439 --> 01:47:00,599 Speaker 1: cued my analytical census that sort of raised the flags 1686 01:47:00,640 --> 01:47:03,360 Speaker 1: for me. And this is what then led me down 1687 01:47:03,439 --> 01:47:06,320 Speaker 1: the road that I'm on now, which is the road 1688 01:47:06,400 --> 01:47:08,720 Speaker 1: of looking at things like the church and the Pope 1689 01:47:08,760 --> 01:47:12,360 Speaker 1: La Door movement, because the idea of dignity and the 1690 01:47:12,400 --> 01:47:16,200 Speaker 1: idea of a dignified life is a key discoorse that's 1691 01:47:16,240 --> 01:47:20,280 Speaker 1: circulating in the church's pastoralism right coming out As we 1692 01:47:20,280 --> 01:47:23,120 Speaker 1: were speaking about earlier, the discourse of dignity is really 1693 01:47:24,200 --> 01:47:28,240 Speaker 1: present in the church's outreach efforts, but it's also present 1694 01:47:28,560 --> 01:47:31,599 Speaker 1: in this Pope La Door movement for housing. The idea 1695 01:47:31,640 --> 01:47:34,320 Speaker 1: of a dignified house as the end goal of their 1696 01:47:34,360 --> 01:47:38,559 Speaker 1: struggle is something that is, you know, rings out in 1697 01:47:38,640 --> 01:47:40,960 Speaker 1: the documents that we have access to and in the 1698 01:47:41,080 --> 01:47:44,200 Speaker 1: oral histories that we have, and so that really, you know, 1699 01:47:44,320 --> 01:47:47,200 Speaker 1: made me think, like, what is it then about the 1700 01:47:47,400 --> 01:47:52,640 Speaker 1: kunamakaina that is allowing gifts to appear here? And you know, 1701 01:47:52,680 --> 01:47:56,880 Speaker 1: what can we then learn using this as our you know, 1702 01:47:57,040 --> 01:48:00,080 Speaker 1: starting point and going out where and so that's on. 1703 01:48:00,320 --> 01:48:02,920 Speaker 1: I decided to sort of take the story back all 1704 01:48:02,920 --> 01:48:05,639 Speaker 1: the way in nineteen fifty seven and look at things 1705 01:48:05,680 --> 01:48:07,599 Speaker 1: like the church, look at things like the Pope leot 1706 01:48:07,600 --> 01:48:12,559 Speaker 1: Door movement, but then also extend the story past the 1707 01:48:12,640 --> 01:48:15,960 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy three period, which is when the coup takes place, 1708 01:48:16,000 --> 01:48:18,280 Speaker 1: which is, you know, in the historiography seen as this 1709 01:48:18,920 --> 01:48:22,400 Speaker 1: hard line in this this break in in Cholyan history, 1710 01:48:22,400 --> 01:48:26,120 Speaker 1: that there's a before September eleventh, nineteen seventy three, and 1711 01:48:26,160 --> 01:48:29,960 Speaker 1: there's an after September eleventh, nineteen seventy three, and very 1712 01:48:30,000 --> 01:48:33,280 Speaker 1: few studies crossed that line, especially studies with regards to 1713 01:48:33,320 --> 01:48:38,040 Speaker 1: the labor movement, the specifically the dignity thing is is 1714 01:48:38,520 --> 01:48:41,559 Speaker 1: really really interesting to me too, because so I didn't 1715 01:48:41,600 --> 01:48:47,760 Speaker 1: interview like, oh God, like a month the go sort 1716 01:48:47,760 --> 01:48:50,160 Speaker 1: of have lost track of time, but I didn't interview 1717 01:48:50,200 --> 01:48:53,600 Speaker 1: with within with an Amazon organizer. And one of the 1718 01:48:53,680 --> 01:48:54,760 Speaker 1: things that that was one of the things that was 1719 01:48:54,760 --> 01:48:56,040 Speaker 1: like one of the things that he brought up is 1720 01:48:56,080 --> 01:48:57,920 Speaker 1: that one of the things that like we are fighting 1721 01:48:57,920 --> 01:48:59,960 Speaker 1: for his dignity, and yeah, that that does some things. 1722 01:49:00,080 --> 01:49:03,240 Speaker 1: Typically I've been thinking about more because like I think 1723 01:49:03,360 --> 01:49:05,599 Speaker 1: we talked about this a bit in the interview itself, 1724 01:49:05,640 --> 01:49:09,720 Speaker 1: but like, like dignity as a demand is a thing 1725 01:49:09,800 --> 01:49:13,280 Speaker 1: that you that you see all of the time in 1726 01:49:14,640 --> 01:49:17,720 Speaker 1: like in in in you know if if if if 1727 01:49:17,720 --> 01:49:20,800 Speaker 1: you are talking to a bunch of people, like on 1728 01:49:20,920 --> 01:49:22,920 Speaker 1: the streets in the middle of a movement, you will 1729 01:49:22,920 --> 01:49:24,760 Speaker 1: hear people talk about dignity. I mean, I think, if 1730 01:49:24,800 --> 01:49:27,200 Speaker 1: if I'm remembering this correctly, this is this is one 1731 01:49:27,240 --> 01:49:28,559 Speaker 1: of the this is one of the big things. This 1732 01:49:28,640 --> 01:49:31,080 Speaker 1: is one of the big demands. And like the modern 1733 01:49:31,400 --> 01:49:33,920 Speaker 1: Chilean protest movements, like that was one of their huge 1734 01:49:33,920 --> 01:49:36,840 Speaker 1: sort of focus. But it's but it's also something like 1735 01:49:36,960 --> 01:49:39,479 Speaker 1: I have never like at any I don't think I've 1736 01:49:39,479 --> 01:49:43,400 Speaker 1: ever seen like a communist party say the word dignity, 1737 01:49:43,800 --> 01:49:48,080 Speaker 1: like like I think it happens. I don't know if 1738 01:49:48,120 --> 01:49:50,880 Speaker 1: every once in a while, like maybe you see it 1739 01:49:50,920 --> 01:49:53,200 Speaker 1: if you get a document that's that's not produced by 1740 01:49:53,240 --> 01:49:56,280 Speaker 1: the sort of ideological engines, but it's produced by like 1741 01:49:56,800 --> 01:50:00,439 Speaker 1: just a bunch of workers in a factory. But yeah, yeah, 1742 01:50:00,479 --> 01:50:02,680 Speaker 1: that that's fascinating to me because like, yeah, because that 1743 01:50:03,880 --> 01:50:07,679 Speaker 1: I don't know, it's it's it seems like the structive 1744 01:50:07,760 --> 01:50:11,800 Speaker 1: for dignity both yeah, like has this thing as like 1745 01:50:11,840 --> 01:50:15,719 Speaker 1: a very specific discourse from the church, but it's also 1746 01:50:15,800 --> 01:50:19,080 Speaker 1: something that shows up in a lot of movements where 1747 01:50:20,720 --> 01:50:24,520 Speaker 1: you're not dealing with the kind of like ideological rigidity 1748 01:50:24,560 --> 01:50:28,040 Speaker 1: that you get from you know, like the mirror not 1749 01:50:28,120 --> 01:50:30,080 Speaker 1: the mirror is a like that that you know, like 1750 01:50:30,120 --> 01:50:32,599 Speaker 1: that that's that's a very like like this is a party, 1751 01:50:32,640 --> 01:50:34,519 Speaker 1: it has a line, it has a very sort of 1752 01:50:34,560 --> 01:50:40,680 Speaker 1: like yeah, yeah, And it's fascinating to me that that yeah, 1753 01:50:40,720 --> 01:50:42,840 Speaker 1: that that you you can see these differences where even 1754 01:50:42,880 --> 01:50:49,599 Speaker 1: when they have influenced the thing that gets acted as dignity, Yeah, 1755 01:50:49,640 --> 01:50:51,559 Speaker 1: I mean there is you know, I think that perhaps 1756 01:50:51,640 --> 01:50:58,719 Speaker 1: what has um pushed studies of leftism, socialism, and labor 1757 01:50:58,760 --> 01:51:02,680 Speaker 1: movement away from the idea of dignity as an analytic 1758 01:51:02,880 --> 01:51:06,479 Speaker 1: object is there is tension here. Right, Dignity is a 1759 01:51:06,560 --> 01:51:13,599 Speaker 1: highly individualized concept, but the solution for a dignified life 1760 01:51:13,760 --> 01:51:18,960 Speaker 1: for all Chileans, as per this document were collective structural changes, 1761 01:51:19,240 --> 01:51:23,439 Speaker 1: and so there's this tension between a collective solution and 1762 01:51:23,640 --> 01:51:27,160 Speaker 1: an individual gain right. And so I think that that 1763 01:51:27,560 --> 01:51:31,200 Speaker 1: both um explains why this hasn't necessarily been a focus 1764 01:51:31,280 --> 01:51:34,439 Speaker 1: of a lot of studies um before. But it also, 1765 01:51:34,479 --> 01:51:38,000 Speaker 1: you know, it gets to the historiography itself, which was 1766 01:51:38,439 --> 01:51:41,000 Speaker 1: you know, a large product of the history here, and 1767 01:51:41,040 --> 01:51:43,640 Speaker 1: so things like the Christian Democrats and things like the 1768 01:51:43,720 --> 01:51:46,799 Speaker 1: Church were seen as the enemy of the popular Unity 1769 01:51:46,840 --> 01:51:50,160 Speaker 1: coalition given the way that the you know, the coup 1770 01:51:50,200 --> 01:51:54,000 Speaker 1: takes place and things like that, and so anything that 1771 01:51:54,120 --> 01:51:57,840 Speaker 1: maybe had a whiff of Christian democracy or Christianity or 1772 01:51:57,840 --> 01:52:02,080 Speaker 1: things like that was seen as as antithetical or incompatible 1773 01:52:02,160 --> 01:52:06,160 Speaker 1: with the study of the left. It also gets to 1774 01:52:06,280 --> 01:52:09,240 Speaker 1: the tension that you were doing a really great job 1775 01:52:09,280 --> 01:52:11,880 Speaker 1: of sort of unpacking, which is this tension between the 1776 01:52:11,960 --> 01:52:15,320 Speaker 1: national leadership of these parties and the national union leadership 1777 01:52:15,720 --> 01:52:19,600 Speaker 1: and then everyday workers on the ground, right. And you know, 1778 01:52:19,680 --> 01:52:21,840 Speaker 1: that's I think really where the strength. And this was 1779 01:52:21,880 --> 01:52:24,400 Speaker 1: really the argument that I advanced in my master's thesis 1780 01:52:24,520 --> 01:52:28,880 Speaker 1: the UVA is that one of the central contradictions of 1781 01:52:29,400 --> 01:52:33,640 Speaker 1: the all end A period is they were competing ideas 1782 01:52:33,680 --> 01:52:37,240 Speaker 1: of socialism. So from the top down and from my 1783 01:52:37,400 --> 01:52:42,040 Speaker 1: end Day's view, socialism was the traditional Soviet union esque 1784 01:52:42,240 --> 01:52:45,160 Speaker 1: approach and so far as it was national economic planning, 1785 01:52:46,000 --> 01:52:49,960 Speaker 1: party hierarchies, things of that nature, right, discipline at the 1786 01:52:50,000 --> 01:52:54,160 Speaker 1: base and upward and upward planning from the top down. 1787 01:52:54,800 --> 01:52:56,920 Speaker 1: But what I think the manifesto and the history of 1788 01:52:56,920 --> 01:53:01,160 Speaker 1: the Quinmacina helps us understand is that for every day individuals, 1789 01:53:01,160 --> 01:53:04,240 Speaker 1: that their idea of socialism didn't have anything to do 1790 01:53:04,320 --> 01:53:06,880 Speaker 1: with state economic planning. It didn't have anything to do 1791 01:53:06,920 --> 01:53:11,320 Speaker 1: with expertise and technocrats and things of that nature. It 1792 01:53:11,400 --> 01:53:14,280 Speaker 1: had to do with the idea that like I need 1793 01:53:15,000 --> 01:53:18,240 Speaker 1: sheets from my bed, I need food for my child. 1794 01:53:18,760 --> 01:53:22,639 Speaker 1: I need the ability to you know, have enough sleep 1795 01:53:22,720 --> 01:53:23,840 Speaker 1: to be able to get up and go to the 1796 01:53:23,880 --> 01:53:26,000 Speaker 1: factory the next day. Right, I need to be able 1797 01:53:26,040 --> 01:53:29,360 Speaker 1: to live a dignified life, to be able to then 1798 01:53:29,880 --> 01:53:32,680 Speaker 1: you know, carry out my work, my obligation as a 1799 01:53:32,760 --> 01:53:37,000 Speaker 1: worker in the historical movement of socialism, and so I 1800 01:53:37,040 --> 01:53:40,519 Speaker 1: think that this is really what um This tension is 1801 01:53:40,520 --> 01:53:45,360 Speaker 1: then what allows for the sort of destabilization to take 1802 01:53:45,360 --> 01:53:49,920 Speaker 1: place um as the opposition consolidates and ultimately destabilizes the 1803 01:53:49,920 --> 01:53:53,760 Speaker 1: identic government in nine Yeah, I think this is a 1804 01:53:53,840 --> 01:53:57,479 Speaker 1: tension that like, I mean, I think there's there's different 1805 01:53:57,600 --> 01:54:01,320 Speaker 1: versions of it too that you see sort of across 1806 01:54:01,320 --> 01:54:03,160 Speaker 1: the story. Like one of the ways that it manifests 1807 01:54:03,439 --> 01:54:07,439 Speaker 1: is this battle between the people who think socialism is 1808 01:54:07,479 --> 01:54:11,280 Speaker 1: about like is national like state national incorporation, that people 1809 01:54:11,320 --> 01:54:13,840 Speaker 1: who think socialism is about like direct control at the 1810 01:54:13,880 --> 01:54:15,800 Speaker 1: point of production by the people who are doing the work. 1811 01:54:16,960 --> 01:54:20,160 Speaker 1: But but I think also, yeah, the question of dignity 1812 01:54:20,280 --> 01:54:23,120 Speaker 1: is it's like it's this, it's like, dignity is this 1813 01:54:23,160 --> 01:54:28,360 Speaker 1: expression that's like maximally bad for um, like if you're 1814 01:54:28,520 --> 01:54:30,640 Speaker 1: like you know, if you're like a you're you're you're 1815 01:54:30,680 --> 01:54:33,680 Speaker 1: a material you're like you know, you're a historical materialist theoretician. Right, 1816 01:54:33,680 --> 01:54:36,760 Speaker 1: It's it's it's the worst possible slogan because on the 1817 01:54:36,760 --> 01:54:38,680 Speaker 1: one hand, it's like it's not materialist, right, like what 1818 01:54:38,760 --> 01:54:41,120 Speaker 1: is dignity? There's no dignity has no class relation, like 1819 01:54:41,160 --> 01:54:43,400 Speaker 1: what is that? You know, And it's it's it's simultaneously 1820 01:54:43,440 --> 01:54:46,760 Speaker 1: like it's not with jerious enough. It's too reformist because like, oh, well, 1821 01:54:46,800 --> 01:54:49,560 Speaker 1: you can give people dignity by just buying them off 1822 01:54:49,600 --> 01:54:52,000 Speaker 1: for like increasing wages, or you could have a class compromise, 1823 01:54:52,000 --> 01:54:54,400 Speaker 1: and that can give you dignity, but then simultaneously it's 1824 01:54:54,440 --> 01:54:56,520 Speaker 1: the thing that's too radical because the problem with dignity 1825 01:54:56,560 --> 01:54:58,720 Speaker 1: also is it like, yeah, I don't know, like there's 1826 01:54:58,760 --> 01:55:01,120 Speaker 1: there's no guarantee that you're going to get dignity if 1827 01:55:01,320 --> 01:55:04,640 Speaker 1: like your factory is controlled by the state, like exactly, 1828 01:55:04,680 --> 01:55:06,720 Speaker 1: and yeah, and this is why, like you see almost 1829 01:55:06,720 --> 01:55:10,960 Speaker 1: identically the state, different name, yeah, and and yeah, it's 1830 01:55:10,960 --> 01:55:14,280 Speaker 1: like it's why you see like the uprisings that happen um, 1831 01:55:14,320 --> 01:55:17,560 Speaker 1: I mean really starting in Hungary. But yeah, this is why, 1832 01:55:17,600 --> 01:55:20,160 Speaker 1: like that they're uprising in Czechoslovakia looks almost identical to 1833 01:55:20,280 --> 01:55:22,879 Speaker 1: like the uprising that happens in France. It's because they're 1834 01:55:22,960 --> 01:55:28,280 Speaker 1: both like there there's you know, you're you're like you 1835 01:55:28,440 --> 01:55:31,280 Speaker 1: the factory worker in a factory in Czechoslovakia and you, 1836 01:55:31,360 --> 01:55:33,880 Speaker 1: the factory worker in the factory in France are dealing 1837 01:55:33,920 --> 01:55:35,960 Speaker 1: with essentially the same thing. And so it's it's this 1838 01:55:36,080 --> 01:55:38,520 Speaker 1: kind of like I don't know, it's it seems like 1839 01:55:38,600 --> 01:55:42,400 Speaker 1: it's it's it's this perfect sort of like cipher for 1840 01:55:43,440 --> 01:55:46,720 Speaker 1: all of these kind of political differences that that that 1841 01:55:46,720 --> 01:55:51,640 Speaker 1: that manifests this this this really old tension in what 1842 01:55:51,680 --> 01:55:53,480 Speaker 1: the worker's movement is going to be that's been being 1843 01:55:53,520 --> 01:56:01,280 Speaker 1: fought out since eighteen thirties and that. Yeah, but I 1844 01:56:01,320 --> 01:56:03,720 Speaker 1: think that like if we as scholars and if we 1845 01:56:03,800 --> 01:56:06,720 Speaker 1: use intellectuals, are really serious about when we say that 1846 01:56:06,760 --> 01:56:09,760 Speaker 1: we're going to study things from below, then I think 1847 01:56:09,840 --> 01:56:14,240 Speaker 1: that we have to take the workers at their word, right, 1848 01:56:14,360 --> 01:56:16,760 Speaker 1: And so like, for example, I presented a version of 1849 01:56:16,760 --> 01:56:20,240 Speaker 1: my of my master's thesis at a I studied was 1850 01:56:20,280 --> 01:56:22,920 Speaker 1: it a program in Bologna for a summer um And 1851 01:56:22,920 --> 01:56:25,720 Speaker 1: so I was presenting this and to the you know, 1852 01:56:25,880 --> 01:56:29,400 Speaker 1: and the Italian leftists in the room, um really came 1853 01:56:29,760 --> 01:56:33,120 Speaker 1: you know, came down on this question of it sounds 1854 01:56:33,160 --> 01:56:36,400 Speaker 1: like what they're describing isn't socialism because they're much more 1855 01:56:36,440 --> 01:56:40,360 Speaker 1: interested in distribution and not interested in the point of production, 1856 01:56:40,720 --> 01:56:43,760 Speaker 1: which isn't socialist. And you know, and all I could say, 1857 01:56:43,800 --> 01:56:46,040 Speaker 1: and all I could respond to this is like, that's 1858 01:56:46,080 --> 01:56:50,000 Speaker 1: what my subjects are using in the archive. And for me, 1859 01:56:50,200 --> 01:56:55,080 Speaker 1: it's far more productive to look for those slippages and 1860 01:56:55,120 --> 01:56:57,680 Speaker 1: look for those spaces and the archive when they are 1861 01:56:57,720 --> 01:57:00,000 Speaker 1: saying something that may be different than what we under 1862 01:57:00,160 --> 01:57:03,040 Speaker 1: stand it to be and that's a lot more productive 1863 01:57:03,080 --> 01:57:06,200 Speaker 1: avenue for analysis, and that, to me is really how 1864 01:57:06,240 --> 01:57:09,600 Speaker 1: we fulfill this obligation to study things from below, because 1865 01:57:09,680 --> 01:57:12,600 Speaker 1: we have to actually take them at their word and 1866 01:57:12,800 --> 01:57:17,720 Speaker 1: understand and try to understand what that actually meant for them, right, 1867 01:57:17,920 --> 01:57:21,480 Speaker 1: and what that meant on an everyday basis. And I 1868 01:57:21,480 --> 01:57:23,480 Speaker 1: think that there's a there's a sort of like practical 1869 01:57:24,480 --> 01:57:28,400 Speaker 1: like organizational like like you know, if if if you 1870 01:57:28,480 --> 01:57:31,560 Speaker 1: today want to do something like this, like I think 1871 01:57:31,560 --> 01:57:33,640 Speaker 1: I think there's there's an imperative there too, which is 1872 01:57:33,680 --> 01:57:39,080 Speaker 1: that like you actually do have to take seriously what 1873 01:57:39,240 --> 01:57:43,400 Speaker 1: people think and how that's different from the way that 1874 01:57:43,440 --> 01:57:46,040 Speaker 1: like you the organizer are thinking about this, because those 1875 01:57:46,040 --> 01:57:48,360 Speaker 1: are things that don't overlap and a lot of times, 1876 01:57:49,240 --> 01:57:51,040 Speaker 1: like you know, and it's it is not enough to 1877 01:57:51,160 --> 01:57:54,200 Speaker 1: just be like, well, these people want diggity. What they 1878 01:57:54,200 --> 01:57:57,440 Speaker 1: actually want is socialism or like what they actually want 1879 01:57:57,440 --> 01:57:59,000 Speaker 1: is the abolition of the classes. It's like you have 1880 01:57:59,040 --> 01:58:03,200 Speaker 1: to like believe them when they say that they want something, 1881 01:58:04,240 --> 01:58:07,400 Speaker 1: and you know, and and when you don't do that, 1882 01:58:07,480 --> 01:58:10,640 Speaker 1: and when you get these sort of disjuncts between like 1883 01:58:10,640 --> 01:58:13,160 Speaker 1: when you get these disjuncts between the sort of the 1884 01:58:13,200 --> 01:58:15,680 Speaker 1: sort of party bureaucracy on the top and what like 1885 01:58:15,880 --> 01:58:18,800 Speaker 1: people in the streets who are season factories want like, yeah, 1886 01:58:18,840 --> 01:58:22,360 Speaker 1: I think like things start to sort of come apart, exactly. 1887 01:58:22,520 --> 01:58:25,360 Speaker 1: And I know I think that, um that if we don't, 1888 01:58:26,240 --> 01:58:29,320 Speaker 1: you know, depart from the perspective of staying true to 1889 01:58:29,440 --> 01:58:33,000 Speaker 1: what the archive gives us, then there's only a risk 1890 01:58:33,080 --> 01:58:36,320 Speaker 1: that we're you know, every historian, every scholar is going 1891 01:58:36,360 --> 01:58:40,520 Speaker 1: to inject their own interpretation onto a document, right, But 1892 01:58:40,640 --> 01:58:43,160 Speaker 1: the best way to sort of safeguard that is to, 1893 01:58:43,840 --> 01:58:45,560 Speaker 1: you know, stay true to what it's saying, and that 1894 01:58:45,680 --> 01:58:48,320 Speaker 1: you know, the same goes for an activist and an 1895 01:58:48,400 --> 01:58:51,600 Speaker 1: organizer as for an intellectual, right, Like, if you don't 1896 01:58:51,680 --> 01:58:55,720 Speaker 1: depart from the perspective of what your constituents or what 1897 01:58:56,160 --> 01:58:59,360 Speaker 1: your group is saying, you know, what they're really saying, 1898 01:58:59,400 --> 01:59:02,960 Speaker 1: the word that they're using to describe what they're demanding, 1899 01:59:03,520 --> 01:59:06,040 Speaker 1: then you're only ever going to just be trying to 1900 01:59:06,120 --> 01:59:09,760 Speaker 1: sort of fit the you know, the square peg in 1901 01:59:09,800 --> 01:59:12,800 Speaker 1: the round hole. Yeah, and and that can go really 1902 01:59:12,960 --> 01:59:19,280 Speaker 1: really really spectacularly broad. Yeah, exactly, And you know, and 1903 01:59:19,320 --> 01:59:21,920 Speaker 1: that is you know what then leads to know in 1904 01:59:21,960 --> 01:59:23,880 Speaker 1: the case of the cordonus that will then lead to 1905 01:59:24,000 --> 01:59:27,000 Speaker 1: tensions that will really break out into the open in 1906 01:59:27,080 --> 01:59:30,720 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy three, in early nineteen seventy three, when the 1907 01:59:31,640 --> 01:59:35,120 Speaker 1: um Orlando MEAs the same person that starts that polemic 1908 01:59:35,520 --> 01:59:38,240 Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy two. By this point it becomes Finance 1909 01:59:38,320 --> 01:59:43,000 Speaker 1: Minister Um in the end administration and presents a plan 1910 01:59:43,160 --> 01:59:45,680 Speaker 1: to sort of devolve some of the factories that have 1911 01:59:45,800 --> 01:59:49,320 Speaker 1: been seized during the October crisis right back to their 1912 01:59:49,360 --> 01:59:53,040 Speaker 1: original owners. Uh. And then this creates a huge problem, 1913 01:59:53,680 --> 01:59:57,000 Speaker 1: huge tension between the base between workers and these factories 1914 01:59:57,000 --> 02:00:00,320 Speaker 1: that had sort of sacrificed everything and put their lives 1915 02:00:00,440 --> 02:00:02,960 Speaker 1: literally put their lives on the line to seize the 1916 02:00:02,960 --> 02:00:05,880 Speaker 1: factories in the first place. Um. And so then you 1917 02:00:05,920 --> 02:00:09,080 Speaker 1: have another sort of moment of mobilization of the corzonies 1918 02:00:09,200 --> 02:00:14,240 Speaker 1: across the city of Santiago in early vent three. That's 1919 02:00:14,320 --> 02:00:16,880 Speaker 1: very much an opposition to the government. Now, can I 1920 02:00:16,960 --> 02:00:20,160 Speaker 1: can I ask a brief sort of framing question about this, 1921 02:00:20,200 --> 02:00:23,000 Speaker 1: which is that, like, okay, so we talked about this 1922 02:00:23,040 --> 02:00:26,080 Speaker 1: in in in the interview we did with some modern 1923 02:00:26,120 --> 02:00:29,760 Speaker 1: Chalian activists, but like, what what is the population of 1924 02:00:29,800 --> 02:00:32,400 Speaker 1: Santiago relative to like the population of the entirety of 1925 02:00:32,480 --> 02:00:36,720 Speaker 1: Chile at this point, Like, how is it? Yeah, that 1926 02:00:36,840 --> 02:00:38,960 Speaker 1: is a great question that I don't actually have statistics 1927 02:00:39,000 --> 02:00:42,200 Speaker 1: like that. I can rattle no worries in my head. Um, 1928 02:00:42,240 --> 02:00:46,240 Speaker 1: but you know, I mean there's there is Uh, it 1929 02:00:46,360 --> 02:00:49,959 Speaker 1: is a great you know, Santia always the most populous 1930 02:00:50,000 --> 02:00:52,680 Speaker 1: region for sure, all right, and so rather the most 1931 02:00:52,680 --> 02:00:56,960 Speaker 1: populous city and then sort of metropolitan region itself is 1932 02:00:57,080 --> 02:00:59,560 Speaker 1: very densely popular. And is it still like like a 1933 02:00:59,600 --> 02:01:02,440 Speaker 1: pretest nificant like population of the entire country or is 1934 02:01:02,440 --> 02:01:07,760 Speaker 1: it less It is a significant population of the whole 1935 02:01:07,760 --> 02:01:10,920 Speaker 1: country for sure. Um, but there is tension in this. 1936 02:01:11,000 --> 02:01:12,280 Speaker 1: And then this is kind of the reason why I 1937 02:01:12,320 --> 02:01:15,800 Speaker 1: always try to steer somewhat away from these types of questions, 1938 02:01:15,800 --> 02:01:18,600 Speaker 1: because I'm sure this came up in your conversation with 1939 02:01:18,640 --> 02:01:20,680 Speaker 1: Chilean activists, is that you know, there is the phrase 1940 02:01:20,720 --> 02:01:23,720 Speaker 1: that Santiago is not Chile, and so there is a 1941 02:01:24,000 --> 02:01:28,839 Speaker 1: there is a tendency to rely on statistics of Santiago's population, 1942 02:01:28,880 --> 02:01:32,120 Speaker 1: of the metropolitan region's population to say like, oh, this 1943 02:01:32,160 --> 02:01:34,760 Speaker 1: is where the majority of people live. So if it 1944 02:01:34,920 --> 02:01:37,920 Speaker 1: happened in Santiago, then that must be true for all 1945 02:01:38,000 --> 02:01:41,080 Speaker 1: of Chile. Um, and that just isn't the case, right, 1946 02:01:41,160 --> 02:01:44,320 Speaker 1: Chile is a huge country. It may be very narrow, 1947 02:01:44,800 --> 02:01:48,000 Speaker 1: this is very long north to south, uh and you know, 1948 02:01:48,040 --> 02:01:51,840 Speaker 1: it is very distinct across the many regions of Chile. 1949 02:01:52,400 --> 02:01:54,880 Speaker 1: And so I have very much on the side of 1950 02:01:54,960 --> 02:01:59,400 Speaker 1: those that argue that Santiago is not Chile. Unfortunately, in 1951 02:01:59,440 --> 02:02:01,520 Speaker 1: the case of the cordonis, the majority of them do 1952 02:02:01,560 --> 02:02:06,560 Speaker 1: exist in Santiago. That said, in Concepcion. Um. You know, 1953 02:02:06,640 --> 02:02:09,880 Speaker 1: another Chile further to the south of Santiago, there is 1954 02:02:09,920 --> 02:02:12,200 Speaker 1: one of the other cities that we know for sure 1955 02:02:12,680 --> 02:02:16,680 Speaker 1: actually did have cordonias that were moderately successful as well. 1956 02:02:16,720 --> 02:02:21,840 Speaker 1: In fact, there is and now I'm completely forgetting her name, um, 1957 02:02:21,880 --> 02:02:24,000 Speaker 1: but there is a historian that has published a book 1958 02:02:24,040 --> 02:02:27,320 Speaker 1: about the cordonis in Concepcion. This is one of the 1959 02:02:27,880 --> 02:02:30,600 Speaker 1: few studies that sort of tries to look at cordona 1960 02:02:30,720 --> 02:02:34,840 Speaker 1: Is beyond Santiago itself, you know, And a very well 1961 02:02:34,840 --> 02:02:37,840 Speaker 1: taken point um on on my part here that like 1962 02:02:38,120 --> 02:02:40,040 Speaker 1: you know, a lot of our discussion today has been 1963 02:02:40,080 --> 02:02:43,760 Speaker 1: about Santiago, and so it's very much limited to Yeah, 1964 02:02:43,880 --> 02:02:45,640 Speaker 1: this is a this is a problem that you get 1965 02:02:45,640 --> 02:02:50,280 Speaker 1: a lot with like large urban movements, like I mean, 1966 02:02:50,320 --> 02:02:52,680 Speaker 1: so I run into Tianamen all the time, where it's like, 1967 02:02:53,440 --> 02:02:56,160 Speaker 1: you know, okay, so Tianeman, there's there's there's the big 1968 02:02:56,200 --> 02:02:58,400 Speaker 1: thing in Tianament. But this happens like cities all over 1969 02:02:58,480 --> 02:03:01,400 Speaker 1: China and there's just nothing. There's like almost nothing that 1970 02:03:01,440 --> 02:03:05,080 Speaker 1: has ever sort of like been written or has gotten 1971 02:03:05,080 --> 02:03:07,520 Speaker 1: out of what happened to everywhere else in the country. 1972 02:03:07,600 --> 02:03:09,520 Speaker 1: And so you get this, you get this very myopic 1973 02:03:09,600 --> 02:03:14,120 Speaker 1: view of like what was happening that I think loses 1974 02:03:14,560 --> 02:03:17,360 Speaker 1: a lot of the sort of like I mean, a 1975 02:03:17,400 --> 02:03:19,360 Speaker 1: lot of the diversity and a lot of the sort 1976 02:03:19,400 --> 02:03:26,040 Speaker 1: of you get a reality that is shaped by the 1977 02:03:26,080 --> 02:03:28,520 Speaker 1: specific experience of one place, which is not the safic 1978 02:03:28,560 --> 02:03:32,240 Speaker 1: experience of every other place, right exactly So like in 1979 02:03:32,280 --> 02:03:35,440 Speaker 1: the case of like Santiago and Cordona's right, like the 1980 02:03:35,560 --> 02:03:39,720 Speaker 1: labor working class that's making up this is factory labor, 1981 02:03:39,800 --> 02:03:42,120 Speaker 1: as we were saying, at the sort of level of 1982 02:03:42,560 --> 02:03:46,680 Speaker 1: consumer products. Right, Let's say, if you've had a cordon 1983 02:03:46,920 --> 02:03:49,720 Speaker 1: and say about Crazo, uh, the sort of coastal city 1984 02:03:49,720 --> 02:03:52,000 Speaker 1: of the ports city, um where you have a much 1985 02:03:52,640 --> 02:03:56,400 Speaker 1: different labor force, right with doc workers things like that, 1986 02:03:56,760 --> 02:04:00,080 Speaker 1: You're going to have a much different formation that's going 1987 02:04:00,160 --> 02:04:02,560 Speaker 1: to take place. And so as much as like my 1988 02:04:02,680 --> 02:04:06,040 Speaker 1: initial sort of attempt to understand the differences within the 1989 02:04:06,040 --> 02:04:10,200 Speaker 1: geography of Santiago, um, you know, I think was important, 1990 02:04:10,520 --> 02:04:12,680 Speaker 1: I always have to remind myself that, like, it's still 1991 02:04:12,800 --> 02:04:17,280 Speaker 1: just this one city, which is very different from the 1992 02:04:17,360 --> 02:04:21,080 Speaker 1: experience of a vast majority of chill lands. I mean, 1993 02:04:21,120 --> 02:04:23,960 Speaker 1: it's definitely a moment in which you know, there is 1994 02:04:24,000 --> 02:04:30,280 Speaker 1: still a very large rural population for sure, And I 1995 02:04:30,280 --> 02:04:33,560 Speaker 1: guess like that that brings me to so like, yeah, 1996 02:04:33,760 --> 02:04:38,600 Speaker 1: in in terms of sort of okay, I guess there's 1997 02:04:38,640 --> 02:04:43,840 Speaker 1: two directions here. One I guess is about what is 1998 02:04:43,880 --> 02:04:48,240 Speaker 1: the like, what is the rural population doing like while 1999 02:04:48,320 --> 02:04:51,880 Speaker 1: this is going on. And the second one, well, I 2000 02:04:51,880 --> 02:04:54,600 Speaker 1: guess I guess we could start there. Yeah. I mean, 2001 02:04:54,640 --> 02:04:56,680 Speaker 1: as we sort of mentioned earlier, there isn't a growing 2002 02:04:56,680 --> 02:04:59,840 Speaker 1: reform that is happening, right, and you are having a 2003 02:05:00,080 --> 02:05:04,120 Speaker 1: labor movement that is picking up rapid steam in the countryside, right, 2004 02:05:04,120 --> 02:05:06,600 Speaker 1: and you are having land seizures that's that are taking 2005 02:05:06,640 --> 02:05:09,600 Speaker 1: place and picking up steam. Um, and so that's a 2006 02:05:09,640 --> 02:05:11,920 Speaker 1: lot of what's going on in the countryside is UH 2007 02:05:12,440 --> 02:05:16,240 Speaker 1: both UH an increase in land seizures UH and increasingly 2008 02:05:16,280 --> 02:05:19,360 Speaker 1: militant land seizures. Is that, But you're also having UM 2009 02:05:19,400 --> 02:05:23,600 Speaker 1: an increased unionization. Right. So the labor code in Chile 2010 02:05:24,040 --> 02:05:29,120 Speaker 1: had a different set of regulations for rural labor than 2011 02:05:29,160 --> 02:05:32,720 Speaker 1: it did for urban or factory labor. Right. And so 2012 02:05:33,040 --> 02:05:35,520 Speaker 1: one of the things that on the end a period 2013 02:05:35,760 --> 02:05:39,320 Speaker 1: that we see is a sort of flourishing of organized 2014 02:05:39,400 --> 02:05:42,200 Speaker 1: labor in the countryside. So you are having a lot 2015 02:05:42,280 --> 02:05:45,200 Speaker 1: of party militants going out into the countryside as well 2016 02:05:45,240 --> 02:05:48,880 Speaker 1: as UH labor leaders locally in the countryside that are 2017 02:05:49,040 --> 02:05:53,440 Speaker 1: organizing rural laborers. UM. So you are having mass um 2018 02:05:53,600 --> 02:05:56,680 Speaker 1: union drives unfortunately, and I will be the first admit 2019 02:05:56,760 --> 02:05:58,800 Speaker 1: that I am largely you know, and this is again 2020 02:05:58,880 --> 02:06:01,880 Speaker 1: a consequence of like being an urban historian, I am 2021 02:06:02,000 --> 02:06:06,720 Speaker 1: largely ignorance of the inner dynamics what is happening on 2022 02:06:06,920 --> 02:06:11,680 Speaker 1: in the countryside. UM. Scholars like Florencia Malon or Heidi 2023 02:06:11,600 --> 02:06:16,520 Speaker 1: Tinsman have both produced outstanding works on this question. UM 2024 02:06:16,560 --> 02:06:20,960 Speaker 1: in terms of the relationship between land seizures and gender 2025 02:06:21,280 --> 02:06:24,920 Speaker 1: and indigenosity UM that is taking place on the countryside. 2026 02:06:26,240 --> 02:06:28,480 Speaker 1: So I guess, yeah, so you know, okay, so we yeah, 2027 02:06:28,520 --> 02:06:29,960 Speaker 1: we can't get it too much detail on this, but 2028 02:06:30,040 --> 02:06:33,280 Speaker 1: I would would it be broadly like accurate to say 2029 02:06:33,280 --> 02:06:35,600 Speaker 1: that it's not true that you're dealing with a situation 2030 02:06:35,640 --> 02:06:38,520 Speaker 1: where there's a huge sort of divide in the level 2031 02:06:38,600 --> 02:06:43,480 Speaker 1: of mobilization organization between the city and rural regions like that. 2032 02:06:43,600 --> 02:06:45,640 Speaker 1: This this isn't like a sort of like like you're 2033 02:06:45,640 --> 02:06:48,360 Speaker 1: not dealing with like like a vonde peasant situation where 2034 02:06:48,400 --> 02:06:50,800 Speaker 1: you have this enormous sort of reactionary base in the 2035 02:06:50,800 --> 02:06:52,680 Speaker 1: country side. Right, Yeah, you know, you definitely don't. Yeah, 2036 02:06:52,720 --> 02:06:54,880 Speaker 1: it's definitely not that UM. And you know there are 2037 02:06:54,960 --> 02:06:58,120 Speaker 1: attempts over the course of the illenda years, you know, 2038 02:06:58,200 --> 02:07:00,520 Speaker 1: the mirrors one of the sort of fronts that this 2039 02:07:00,640 --> 02:07:03,560 Speaker 1: is playing out in. But even the cordonates themselves, right, So, 2040 02:07:03,600 --> 02:07:07,200 Speaker 1: like one of the initial UM rallies and sort of 2041 02:07:07,240 --> 02:07:12,280 Speaker 1: mobilizations of the studios Maipu cordone is for UM the 2042 02:07:12,480 --> 02:07:16,600 Speaker 1: jailing and imprisonment of a series of rural militants and 2043 02:07:16,680 --> 02:07:23,680 Speaker 1: rural labors that in the area of Malipia. UM there 2044 02:07:23,720 --> 02:07:27,480 Speaker 1: are some activists and workers that are jailed UH and 2045 02:07:27,640 --> 02:07:31,240 Speaker 1: those the cordon actually marches into the city of Santiago, 2046 02:07:31,320 --> 02:07:34,760 Speaker 1: into the downtown part of Santiago to demand their release. Um. 2047 02:07:34,800 --> 02:07:37,760 Speaker 1: And this is like a disparate geography here that we're 2048 02:07:37,760 --> 02:07:41,240 Speaker 1: talking about, and so UM it is you know, this 2049 02:07:41,320 --> 02:07:43,280 Speaker 1: is an instance in which he's trying to see these 2050 02:07:43,320 --> 02:07:49,160 Speaker 1: sort of links be both be made and strengthened between 2051 02:07:50,000 --> 02:07:53,840 Speaker 1: UH factory labor in cities and world labor in the countryside. 2052 02:07:56,160 --> 02:07:58,120 Speaker 1: And I guess it brings me to the second point, 2053 02:07:58,160 --> 02:08:00,840 Speaker 1: which is like, Okay, so there is a right in 2054 02:08:00,960 --> 02:08:05,680 Speaker 1: Chile and it is not happy, um very much. Yeah. Yeah, 2055 02:08:05,720 --> 02:08:07,800 Speaker 1: And I guess one of the things I guess I 2056 02:08:07,840 --> 02:08:11,800 Speaker 1: wanted to talk about was so my my impression about 2057 02:08:11,800 --> 02:08:15,640 Speaker 1: a lot of what is happening in nine seventy three 2058 02:08:15,760 --> 02:08:18,960 Speaker 1: has to do with the fact that Chile's like trucker's 2059 02:08:19,040 --> 02:08:23,440 Speaker 1: movement is really right wing and that that has well, 2060 02:08:23,920 --> 02:08:25,480 Speaker 1: so part of that. Part of that is the CIA. 2061 02:08:25,680 --> 02:08:30,040 Speaker 1: Part of that is just this like a like part 2062 02:08:30,080 --> 02:08:34,000 Speaker 1: of it is the CIA's ability to keep striking truckers 2063 02:08:34,040 --> 02:08:37,920 Speaker 1: afloat and they're not working on. Part of it also 2064 02:08:38,000 --> 02:08:41,680 Speaker 1: is a consequence from this moment in October, right, in 2065 02:08:41,720 --> 02:08:46,280 Speaker 1: which the national business elite and national economic elite in 2066 02:08:46,400 --> 02:08:51,120 Speaker 1: Chile transform that trucker strike into the boss's strike. Right, 2067 02:08:51,160 --> 02:08:54,120 Speaker 1: So you do have this alliance being formed and strengthened 2068 02:08:54,440 --> 02:08:57,200 Speaker 1: at that moment as well, which will, as you're referring 2069 02:08:57,240 --> 02:09:00,600 Speaker 1: to invent three, there is another truck or strike that 2070 02:09:00,680 --> 02:09:05,040 Speaker 1: takes place that has even been more crippling in some 2071 02:09:05,160 --> 02:09:08,440 Speaker 1: senses than the initial one. Yeah. And then also also 2072 02:09:08,520 --> 02:09:11,640 Speaker 1: as I will mention literally every time, even though I 2073 02:09:11,840 --> 02:09:13,000 Speaker 1: I don't know if I can say that on air, 2074 02:09:13,040 --> 02:09:16,240 Speaker 1: but the part that I can say on air is um, 2075 02:09:16,760 --> 02:09:20,800 Speaker 1: yeah to their eternal, ignominious non glory. The a f 2076 02:09:20,920 --> 02:09:22,920 Speaker 1: l c I O is also heavily involved in that 2077 02:09:23,920 --> 02:09:28,360 Speaker 1: which is fun and good and uh yeah, a f 2078 02:09:28,480 --> 02:09:34,440 Speaker 1: l c I Oh, please stop overthrowing governments, helping deference. 2079 02:09:35,440 --> 02:09:38,480 Speaker 1: It's a very it's a very afi c IO history 2080 02:09:38,920 --> 02:09:41,960 Speaker 1: in relationship is actually very fascinating because during the dictatorship 2081 02:09:42,000 --> 02:09:44,800 Speaker 1: they will actually be on the other side and actually 2082 02:09:45,160 --> 02:09:48,360 Speaker 1: helping labor get back on its feet. Um and as 2083 02:09:48,400 --> 02:09:50,840 Speaker 1: a key point of resistance. So they're um in the 2084 02:09:50,920 --> 02:09:54,640 Speaker 1: late nineties of these organizing a boycott of Chilant products, 2085 02:09:54,640 --> 02:09:57,200 Speaker 1: which actually is a key point of pressure on the 2086 02:09:57,240 --> 02:10:01,760 Speaker 1: dictatorship to begin allowing for new um for a sort 2087 02:10:01,760 --> 02:10:05,120 Speaker 1: of new labor movement to begin emerging. Yeah, which that 2088 02:10:05,200 --> 02:10:08,520 Speaker 1: I at some point like I don't I don't think 2089 02:10:08,520 --> 02:10:12,360 Speaker 1: it can happen here, but I just did the podcast name, 2090 02:10:12,960 --> 02:10:14,560 Speaker 1: but yeah, I don't don't think. I don't think it 2091 02:10:14,560 --> 02:10:16,320 Speaker 1: can be this time. But like, yeahs at some point 2092 02:10:16,360 --> 02:10:17,920 Speaker 1: I do want to take a deeper dive into sort 2093 02:10:17,920 --> 02:10:19,360 Speaker 1: of like what the a f l C I O 2094 02:10:19,480 --> 02:10:21,840 Speaker 1: is doing through this period because they are like they're 2095 02:10:21,880 --> 02:10:25,840 Speaker 1: all over like yeah, there's a fascinating history. Yeah, Like 2096 02:10:25,880 --> 02:10:27,800 Speaker 1: I mean like you know, like my my, my, my 2097 02:10:28,000 --> 02:10:30,040 Speaker 1: last a fl C what are you doing things for 2098 02:10:30,040 --> 02:10:33,600 Speaker 1: this episode? Is so the fl C has the policy 2099 02:10:33,600 --> 02:10:37,160 Speaker 1: where like they don't like they don't associate with like 2100 02:10:37,160 --> 02:10:40,360 Speaker 1: like state union federations and they make one exception for it, 2101 02:10:40,440 --> 02:10:42,879 Speaker 1: and it's State Union Federation of the military died katorship 2102 02:10:42,880 --> 02:10:46,800 Speaker 1: in South Korea, which is like it like a good job, guys, 2103 02:10:46,920 --> 02:10:53,480 Speaker 1: like doing great here, this is going great. Yeah, but yeah, 2104 02:10:53,480 --> 02:10:54,880 Speaker 1: I guess can we can we get into sort of 2105 02:10:54,880 --> 02:11:00,120 Speaker 1: the the crisis is that like are the crisis that 2106 02:11:00,200 --> 02:11:04,400 Speaker 1: like precipitate the end of all end A totally yeah. 2107 02:11:04,440 --> 02:11:06,760 Speaker 1: So by this point, you know, as I mentioned by 2108 02:11:09,040 --> 02:11:14,560 Speaker 1: the opposition is largely um disarticulated. You have the National Party, 2109 02:11:14,840 --> 02:11:18,000 Speaker 1: you have the sort of far right organization UM that 2110 02:11:18,040 --> 02:11:21,760 Speaker 1: would be translated as Fatherland and Freedom pot three. I 2111 02:11:21,760 --> 02:11:24,800 Speaker 1: delivered that, or I translated as father land and freedom 2112 02:11:24,840 --> 02:11:28,200 Speaker 1: because I think it has a better, it conjures it better. 2113 02:11:28,480 --> 02:11:31,920 Speaker 1: Others will translated as father land and liberty. UM. But 2114 02:11:32,200 --> 02:11:36,480 Speaker 1: I'm a sucker for a literative forms, and so that's 2115 02:11:36,720 --> 02:11:38,920 Speaker 1: the translation that I use. I also think it conjures 2116 02:11:38,960 --> 02:11:41,640 Speaker 1: more the sort of fascistic elements, which this very much 2117 02:11:41,760 --> 02:11:48,000 Speaker 1: was a fascist organization. UM. Yes, No, I mean a 2118 02:11:48,000 --> 02:11:51,680 Speaker 1: lot of you know low Chicago boys will have ties 2119 02:11:51,840 --> 02:11:55,680 Speaker 1: to Pot three Oliver to that um. And so there 2120 02:11:55,880 --> 02:12:00,800 Speaker 1: have you know, rightest shock troops that are fomenting conflicts 2121 02:12:00,840 --> 02:12:04,200 Speaker 1: in the streets, um, that are also setting off bombs 2122 02:12:04,240 --> 02:12:08,360 Speaker 1: that are crippling the power grid, especially much later in 2123 02:12:08,440 --> 02:12:12,200 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy three. UM. But following that moment in nineteen 2124 02:12:12,280 --> 02:12:16,160 Speaker 1: seventy one, when the Popular Unity government is choose the 2125 02:12:16,160 --> 02:12:19,720 Speaker 1: alliance with the Christian Democrats, the Christian that pushes the 2126 02:12:19,760 --> 02:12:23,800 Speaker 1: Christian Democrats to begin forming an alliance with the National Party. 2127 02:12:24,000 --> 02:12:26,920 Speaker 1: And what happens then is that the left wing of 2128 02:12:26,960 --> 02:12:30,320 Speaker 1: the Christian Democrats splits from that party to form its 2129 02:12:30,320 --> 02:12:34,440 Speaker 1: own party of Left Christians. But then the consequence of 2130 02:12:34,480 --> 02:12:37,280 Speaker 1: that is that that means that the more rightest elements 2131 02:12:37,320 --> 02:12:40,520 Speaker 1: of the Christian Democrat party can consolidate their power and 2132 02:12:40,600 --> 02:12:43,760 Speaker 1: stream their ties with the national power. So that by 2133 02:12:43,960 --> 02:12:46,920 Speaker 1: you know, late nineteen seventy two, and very much by 2134 02:12:46,920 --> 02:12:50,120 Speaker 1: the March nineteen seventy three elections, which were sort of 2135 02:12:50,160 --> 02:12:54,720 Speaker 1: the key electoral moment that everyone was looking to. UM. 2136 02:12:54,760 --> 02:12:57,600 Speaker 1: At this moment, um, you have a you have a 2137 02:12:57,800 --> 02:13:02,680 Speaker 1: solid alliance of the right. UM. Now the end a 2138 02:13:02,800 --> 02:13:09,360 Speaker 1: coalition will win the March elections. UM. And that is 2139 02:13:09,400 --> 02:13:14,560 Speaker 1: really the moment that scholars agree that the switches sort 2140 02:13:14,560 --> 02:13:17,640 Speaker 1: of flipped for an opposition and they realize that they 2141 02:13:17,640 --> 02:13:20,920 Speaker 1: can no longer defeat the popular unique coalition at the 2142 02:13:20,920 --> 02:13:23,600 Speaker 1: ballot box, and that they now need to use extra 2143 02:13:23,640 --> 02:13:28,320 Speaker 1: constitutional means right, and so they begin developing sort of 2144 02:13:28,360 --> 02:13:32,360 Speaker 1: deploying the full force of those means. UM. And here 2145 02:13:32,440 --> 02:13:34,920 Speaker 1: is a point where the role of gender is very 2146 02:13:34,960 --> 02:13:37,800 Speaker 1: important because a lot of what the Right will do 2147 02:13:38,080 --> 02:13:41,440 Speaker 1: will be to mobilize the power of the power and 2148 02:13:41,600 --> 02:13:46,640 Speaker 1: symbol of women protesting um as a way to delegitimate 2149 02:13:47,000 --> 02:13:50,240 Speaker 1: the end a government and to de legitimate key figures 2150 02:13:50,760 --> 02:13:54,440 Speaker 1: uh in the end administration. So earlier there is a 2151 02:13:54,520 --> 02:13:57,800 Speaker 1: key protest that happens, which is the march of angry 2152 02:13:57,840 --> 02:14:01,200 Speaker 1: pots um and this is a a very traditional form 2153 02:14:01,240 --> 02:14:04,640 Speaker 1: of protests in Latin America which the Castle Lazo right 2154 02:14:04,720 --> 02:14:08,160 Speaker 1: the sort of banging of pots and pans in protest um, 2155 02:14:08,640 --> 02:14:11,400 Speaker 1: but the Right organizes it to be largely carried out 2156 02:14:11,400 --> 02:14:14,640 Speaker 1: by women as a way to protest what is seen 2157 02:14:14,800 --> 02:14:19,120 Speaker 1: as a you know, a lack of supply of basic 2158 02:14:19,680 --> 02:14:24,400 Speaker 1: food necessities for um families in Chile, which you know, 2159 02:14:24,480 --> 02:14:27,320 Speaker 1: we now know is a result of black market speculation 2160 02:14:27,400 --> 02:14:29,440 Speaker 1: in hoarding on a lot of the part of the 2161 02:14:29,440 --> 02:14:34,200 Speaker 1: sort of distribution centers controlled by the Right. Nevertheless, they 2162 02:14:34,360 --> 02:14:39,879 Speaker 1: essentially use this symbol of women heads of households marching 2163 02:14:40,720 --> 02:14:43,120 Speaker 1: in the streets in opposition to end. So that's one 2164 02:14:43,120 --> 02:14:46,480 Speaker 1: thing that happens later in nineteen three they will sort 2165 02:14:46,520 --> 02:14:50,400 Speaker 1: of reuse this tactic and deploy women to protest in 2166 02:14:50,440 --> 02:14:55,000 Speaker 1: front of UM the houses of key military figures UM 2167 02:14:55,160 --> 02:14:59,200 Speaker 1: that are in the Cabinet of End at this point UH. 2168 02:14:59,440 --> 02:15:02,680 Speaker 1: This will then forced the resignation of some of these 2169 02:15:02,720 --> 02:15:06,200 Speaker 1: figures from the allend cabinet. And then one of the 2170 02:15:06,280 --> 02:15:09,640 Speaker 1: key figures that has then replaced in the cabinet is 2171 02:15:09,680 --> 02:15:12,240 Speaker 1: none other than a cost Opine Chat. It will be 2172 02:15:12,240 --> 02:15:15,400 Speaker 1: welcomed into the cabinet and specifically will be welcoming into 2173 02:15:15,440 --> 02:15:19,080 Speaker 1: the cabinet because he's seen as a strict constitutionalist in 2174 02:15:19,320 --> 02:15:23,000 Speaker 1: the Chilean military UH and is not seen as any 2175 02:15:23,040 --> 02:15:27,160 Speaker 1: sort of threat to what is going on. Meanwhile, in 2176 02:15:27,600 --> 02:15:30,560 Speaker 1: late June of nineteen seventy three, there is an attempted 2177 02:15:30,680 --> 02:15:33,320 Speaker 1: coup that takes place in which you have a rogue 2178 02:15:33,360 --> 02:15:38,480 Speaker 1: regiment of the Chilean Army UM deploying tanks in front 2179 02:15:38,560 --> 02:15:42,800 Speaker 1: of Lamlada, the presidential palace in Santiago. UH. That is 2180 02:15:42,880 --> 02:15:45,800 Speaker 1: large that is put down. It's also one of the 2181 02:15:45,920 --> 02:15:49,440 Speaker 1: last moments that the cord donates themselves will mobilize and 2182 02:15:49,520 --> 02:15:52,960 Speaker 1: that all the Coresonists in Santiago will seize their territories, 2183 02:15:53,960 --> 02:15:57,560 Speaker 1: erect barricade. It's cut off transportation to prevent any sort 2184 02:15:57,560 --> 02:16:00,880 Speaker 1: of large scale coup from taking play essentially to try 2185 02:16:00,880 --> 02:16:04,600 Speaker 1: and isolate that regiment just within front of LaMeta, to 2186 02:16:04,880 --> 02:16:09,280 Speaker 1: allow for the wings of the armed forces that are 2187 02:16:09,280 --> 02:16:11,680 Speaker 1: still loyal to the president at this point to put 2188 02:16:11,760 --> 02:16:15,400 Speaker 1: that down. So that has put down, and then in 2189 02:16:15,480 --> 02:16:20,080 Speaker 1: between late in June nineteen seventy three and September ninety 2190 02:16:20,160 --> 02:16:23,920 Speaker 1: three is what scholars, specifically Peter Winn for two, is 2191 02:16:23,960 --> 02:16:27,760 Speaker 1: a creeping coup begins to take place. And the creeping 2192 02:16:27,840 --> 02:16:30,800 Speaker 1: coup has, you know, a multi fascist strategy. As I 2193 02:16:30,840 --> 02:16:33,560 Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, there is the bombing of electrical grids, so 2194 02:16:33,720 --> 02:16:38,360 Speaker 1: you have you know, increasing blackouts, instability, things of that nature, right, 2195 02:16:38,440 --> 02:16:43,840 Speaker 1: fearmongering in very real sense, palpable senses. UM, you also 2196 02:16:43,879 --> 02:16:47,680 Speaker 1: have a shake up amongst different members of different branches 2197 02:16:47,680 --> 02:16:51,920 Speaker 1: of the armed forces, which those that are loyal to 2198 02:16:52,560 --> 02:16:56,879 Speaker 1: the constitution, that are the constitutionalists, are pushed out, and 2199 02:16:57,040 --> 02:17:00,120 Speaker 1: as a result, then you have the coup plotters that 2200 02:17:00,160 --> 02:17:05,920 Speaker 1: are ready to essentially overthrow the government. UM achieve positions 2201 02:17:05,920 --> 02:17:08,320 Speaker 1: of authority in which that they can give orders. And 2202 02:17:08,400 --> 02:17:10,480 Speaker 1: this is a key factor. This may seem like a 2203 02:17:10,520 --> 02:17:15,039 Speaker 1: small factor, but the Chilean military had historically been trained 2204 02:17:15,080 --> 02:17:18,000 Speaker 1: in the Prussian model of military training. Right, So it 2205 02:17:18,040 --> 02:17:23,800 Speaker 1: was a very strict regimented hierarchical structure in which historically 2206 02:17:23,800 --> 02:17:26,959 Speaker 1: had been very loyal within that hierarchy. So it was 2207 02:17:27,000 --> 02:17:31,120 Speaker 1: important that the coup plotters would achieve positions of higher 2208 02:17:31,520 --> 02:17:35,120 Speaker 1: authority to be able to actually effectuate a coup, especially 2209 02:17:35,160 --> 02:17:40,080 Speaker 1: after the attempted coup fails in June. So on the 2210 02:17:40,120 --> 02:17:44,879 Speaker 1: morning of September eleventh, UM, you have Hawker hunter jets 2211 02:17:44,920 --> 02:17:48,680 Speaker 1: that again bombing the presidential palace UH, and you have 2212 02:17:48,959 --> 02:17:53,879 Speaker 1: a deployment of UM military forces throughout the city to 2213 02:17:54,440 --> 02:17:57,080 Speaker 1: put down any sort of armed force or any sort 2214 02:17:57,080 --> 02:18:00,240 Speaker 1: of resistance. Right leading up to this moment, you had 2215 02:18:00,280 --> 02:18:05,039 Speaker 1: deployments of both the Chilean militarized police, the Kada brows, 2216 02:18:05,200 --> 02:18:08,720 Speaker 1: which are actually functionally militaries. They're part of the armed 2217 02:18:08,720 --> 02:18:10,959 Speaker 1: forces in Chile, it's not just militarized in the sense 2218 02:18:10,959 --> 02:18:14,760 Speaker 1: of tactics and weaponry, to raid factories in the search 2219 02:18:14,800 --> 02:18:18,040 Speaker 1: of arms, right, things of that nature. So you already 2220 02:18:18,040 --> 02:18:22,080 Speaker 1: had UM this sort of daily occurrence taking place. In 2221 02:18:22,240 --> 02:18:24,640 Speaker 1: a consequence of that, right, is that then these forces 2222 02:18:24,760 --> 02:18:28,200 Speaker 1: know the weak spots in these factories, they know the 2223 02:18:28,200 --> 02:18:32,199 Speaker 1: capabilities of these factories and things like that. Uh Cordlon 2224 02:18:32,320 --> 02:18:35,119 Speaker 1: Vacuna McCane will actually be the place that will witness 2225 02:18:35,360 --> 02:18:38,600 Speaker 1: some of the fiercest fighting of what would be referred 2226 02:18:38,640 --> 02:18:41,040 Speaker 1: to as the Battle of Santiago. You know, often when 2227 02:18:41,040 --> 02:18:43,880 Speaker 1: we talk about the Chilean coup, we talked about strictly 2228 02:18:43,879 --> 02:18:47,439 Speaker 1: a September eleventh, ninety three. UM. The Battle of Santiago 2229 02:18:47,480 --> 02:18:51,400 Speaker 1: actually rages for a few days after September eleven. It's 2230 02:18:51,440 --> 02:18:54,840 Speaker 1: not just a quick UM you know, in and out 2231 02:18:54,920 --> 02:18:57,720 Speaker 1: mission there is there is, there are forms of resistance 2232 02:18:57,760 --> 02:19:01,480 Speaker 1: that take place UM, and the Namacana is one of 2233 02:19:01,600 --> 02:19:04,840 Speaker 1: the places that this takes place. There are two Chilean historians, 2234 02:19:04,920 --> 02:19:10,440 Speaker 1: Mario Garces and Sebastian Laba, that published a masterful, wonderful 2235 02:19:10,440 --> 02:19:13,480 Speaker 1: book UM that is all about as UM called the 2236 02:19:13,520 --> 02:19:16,920 Speaker 1: kun La Legua and Lagua was a historic Pope Lacion 2237 02:19:17,120 --> 02:19:19,920 Speaker 1: that was just to the west of the Pacuna Macana 2238 02:19:20,120 --> 02:19:24,119 Speaker 1: factory and the workers of factories in Pocuna Macana, specifically 2239 02:19:24,160 --> 02:19:27,760 Speaker 1: the Sumar textile mill that we mentioned earlier. UM will 2240 02:19:27,840 --> 02:19:32,760 Speaker 1: essentially lead UM a march gathering other workers, saving those 2241 02:19:32,760 --> 02:19:35,960 Speaker 1: that they can and essentially holding their ground for as 2242 02:19:36,040 --> 02:19:39,320 Speaker 1: long as they can in the Poplacion of La Lagua uh. 2243 02:19:39,360 --> 02:19:42,480 Speaker 1: In fact, I have some testimonies of workers and documents 2244 02:19:42,520 --> 02:19:46,680 Speaker 1: that I've uncovered. UM. One worker in particular described the 2245 02:19:47,080 --> 02:19:51,040 Speaker 1: battle that raged there is as being like hell on earth. UM. 2246 02:19:51,120 --> 02:19:54,360 Speaker 1: That they had helicopters firing from the sky, they had 2247 02:19:54,400 --> 02:19:58,520 Speaker 1: tanks surrounding them. UM. So they were under fire from 2248 02:19:58,560 --> 02:20:03,439 Speaker 1: both the land up in the air, and so ultimately 2249 02:20:03,480 --> 02:20:07,760 Speaker 1: then the government is overthrown, right UM. I end. It's 2250 02:20:07,840 --> 02:20:10,840 Speaker 1: unclear to this day if I end a committed suicide, 2251 02:20:10,920 --> 02:20:13,680 Speaker 1: if he was killed, we just we don't know. We 2252 02:20:13,800 --> 02:20:16,720 Speaker 1: do know that he refused to leave the presidential palace. 2253 02:20:16,840 --> 02:20:20,080 Speaker 1: We do know that he delivers one final address, very 2254 02:20:20,160 --> 02:20:25,600 Speaker 1: famous address UM over the radio of Chile. UM. And 2255 02:20:25,640 --> 02:20:28,400 Speaker 1: then after that week we know that that his corpse 2256 02:20:29,000 --> 02:20:32,320 Speaker 1: UM appears and a lot of the materials that the 2257 02:20:32,360 --> 02:20:36,160 Speaker 1: military will put out. Military takes control of communication networks. 2258 02:20:36,920 --> 02:20:39,520 Speaker 1: Many of the communication networks and press networks were already 2259 02:20:39,560 --> 02:20:42,840 Speaker 1: controlled by the right UM, so it's very easy for 2260 02:20:42,879 --> 02:20:47,440 Speaker 1: them to gain access to these methods UM to sort 2261 02:20:47,440 --> 02:20:51,039 Speaker 1: of spread their message. UM. And this is where things, 2262 02:20:51,120 --> 02:20:55,360 Speaker 1: you know, historically speaking, get very interesting. In the difference 2263 02:20:55,400 --> 02:20:59,120 Speaker 1: between our sort of um conventional wisdom and what actually 2264 02:20:59,480 --> 02:21:02,800 Speaker 1: took place it or takes place. Right, The original structure 2265 02:21:02,959 --> 02:21:08,000 Speaker 1: of the military junta that takes command was designed as 2266 02:21:08,000 --> 02:21:12,480 Speaker 1: a tripartite structure that would rotate amongst different branches of 2267 02:21:12,560 --> 02:21:17,040 Speaker 1: the armed forces to prevent precisely what happens with the 2268 02:21:17,280 --> 02:21:21,160 Speaker 1: figure of Gusto Pinochet taking power himself, to prevent such 2269 02:21:21,160 --> 02:21:24,680 Speaker 1: a thing from happening. Right. Uh. Ultimately, though, over the 2270 02:21:24,720 --> 02:21:29,320 Speaker 1: course of the nineteen seventies, you have Pino Chick consolidating power. Uh. 2271 02:21:29,360 --> 02:21:31,800 Speaker 1: In fact, if you've ever seen the image of him 2272 02:21:31,800 --> 02:21:35,520 Speaker 1: that's sitting cross arm with the sunglasses on, it's like 2273 02:21:35,560 --> 02:21:38,199 Speaker 1: one of the most recognizable photos of him from this time. 2274 02:21:39,280 --> 02:21:42,160 Speaker 1: That photo is actually the actual original version of the photo. 2275 02:21:42,440 --> 02:21:45,000 Speaker 1: You have the full junta behind him taking a picture. 2276 02:21:45,400 --> 02:21:49,560 Speaker 1: But yeah, yeah, and it's not so much even he 2277 02:21:49,879 --> 02:21:52,640 Speaker 1: did it, but it's that that photo just over time 2278 02:21:52,680 --> 02:21:55,920 Speaker 1: became so associated with him because it's such a starring 2279 02:21:55,959 --> 02:21:59,240 Speaker 1: image of him sitting there. Um that it it's sort 2280 02:21:59,280 --> 02:22:03,600 Speaker 1: of functionally recreated the sort of purging that heat takes 2281 02:22:04,080 --> 02:22:07,480 Speaker 1: that he'll carry out essentially. You know, also what they 2282 02:22:07,480 --> 02:22:11,480 Speaker 1: will do immediately is that they will close the Congress, 2283 02:22:12,000 --> 02:22:14,920 Speaker 1: they will dissolve the COOT, the National Labor Federation that 2284 02:22:14,959 --> 02:22:19,280 Speaker 1: we discussed earlier, UH, and they will essentially dissolve the 2285 02:22:20,160 --> 02:22:24,600 Speaker 1: UM conciliation councils that oversawing sort of collective bargaining. They 2286 02:22:24,600 --> 02:22:29,080 Speaker 1: will freeze any sort of petitions pleegos from factory labors, 2287 02:22:30,280 --> 02:22:34,800 Speaker 1: and they will begin to purge labor leaders across both 2288 02:22:35,440 --> 02:22:38,600 Speaker 1: the national spectrum of labor leadership as well as you know, 2289 02:22:39,240 --> 02:22:43,480 Speaker 1: through the course of and well into will be begin 2290 02:22:43,560 --> 02:22:50,519 Speaker 1: purging factory level leaderships. UM. They will institutionalized torture, UM, 2291 02:22:50,560 --> 02:22:55,199 Speaker 1: they will institutionalized forced disappearance, and all of these things 2292 02:22:55,760 --> 02:22:59,959 Speaker 1: UM constitute how they're essentially able to hold onto path 2293 02:23:00,000 --> 02:23:02,440 Speaker 1: hour In those early days, there's a state of siege 2294 02:23:02,600 --> 02:23:06,360 Speaker 1: that has declared, which means that all civil liberties UM 2295 02:23:06,680 --> 02:23:09,920 Speaker 1: have essentially been suspended. And all of this is in 2296 02:23:09,959 --> 02:23:14,720 Speaker 1: the name of national security. And that's really the key thing, UM. 2297 02:23:14,800 --> 02:23:19,440 Speaker 1: And so everything from the labor movement is shut down UM, 2298 02:23:19,520 --> 02:23:21,400 Speaker 1: and then it will begin to re emerge. And that's 2299 02:23:21,440 --> 02:23:25,240 Speaker 1: really like where I think my research and my dissertation 2300 02:23:25,600 --> 02:23:27,640 Speaker 1: and of a key intervention that that I'm trying to 2301 02:23:27,680 --> 02:23:30,760 Speaker 1: make is that you know, seventy three wasn't the end 2302 02:23:30,760 --> 02:23:32,680 Speaker 1: of the story, Like, yes, it was the end of 2303 02:23:32,680 --> 02:23:35,080 Speaker 1: the Cordons induced to gothers with a capital C and 2304 02:23:35,080 --> 02:23:38,560 Speaker 1: a capital I. But the idea of a territorial labor 2305 02:23:38,640 --> 02:23:42,080 Speaker 1: organization will re emerge in the late nineteen seventies and 2306 02:23:42,120 --> 02:23:45,760 Speaker 1: in the nineteen eighties when protests against the dictatorship began 2307 02:23:45,800 --> 02:23:48,480 Speaker 1: to flourish. And this is something that I mean, I 2308 02:23:48,480 --> 02:23:50,320 Speaker 1: guess this is the projecting into the future, but this 2309 02:23:50,360 --> 02:23:52,560 Speaker 1: is something that I was I don't know that thinking about, 2310 02:23:53,240 --> 02:23:57,080 Speaker 1: I don't quite know how to think about. Which is 2311 02:23:57,120 --> 02:24:02,560 Speaker 1: the connection between like can we draw online between the Cardonis, 2312 02:24:02,600 --> 02:24:06,000 Speaker 1: the sort of the pro democracy movement that eventually, like 2313 02:24:06,240 --> 02:24:11,920 Speaker 1: through Pinochet's incompetence and their skill, like brings down the 2314 02:24:11,920 --> 02:24:16,600 Speaker 1: dictatorship and the sort of the really vibrant like me 2315 02:24:16,760 --> 02:24:19,600 Speaker 1: really for the last like twenty years, like incredibly vibrant 2316 02:24:19,640 --> 02:24:24,080 Speaker 1: sort of like student protests, but I mean just just 2317 02:24:24,120 --> 02:24:28,119 Speaker 1: sort of like like leftist street movements in Chile, because 2318 02:24:28,120 --> 02:24:30,760 Speaker 1: I mean, like, I don't know, like I guess the 2319 02:24:31,160 --> 02:24:36,080 Speaker 1: impression that I got when I was talking to like 2320 02:24:36,160 --> 02:24:42,640 Speaker 1: the Chilean organizers was that like organized labor wasn't playing 2321 02:24:42,720 --> 02:24:46,600 Speaker 1: much of a role in this, and so yeah, I 2322 02:24:46,640 --> 02:24:48,360 Speaker 1: guess I was just wondering, like, how, how how do 2323 02:24:48,400 --> 02:24:51,360 Speaker 1: we think about sort of this trajectory? And I know 2324 02:24:51,440 --> 02:24:54,360 Speaker 1: this is like fifty years but no, I mean, I 2325 02:24:54,360 --> 02:24:57,520 Speaker 1: mean my dissertation is trying to the sort of branch 2326 02:24:57,640 --> 02:25:01,320 Speaker 1: this full trajectory. And it's the beautiful, wonderful question. Um. 2327 02:25:01,360 --> 02:25:03,160 Speaker 1: And you're right, you know, the the activists that you 2328 02:25:03,200 --> 02:25:08,000 Speaker 1: spoke to. Um, that is a very common, um, commonly 2329 02:25:08,040 --> 02:25:10,520 Speaker 1: held view. And it's a commonly held view for a 2330 02:25:10,560 --> 02:25:13,760 Speaker 1: couple of reasons. One is that one of the what 2331 02:25:13,959 --> 02:25:17,480 Speaker 1: is seen as one of the main protagonists in the 2332 02:25:17,480 --> 02:25:20,240 Speaker 1: pro democracy movements that take place in the nineteen eighties 2333 02:25:20,640 --> 02:25:23,280 Speaker 1: are precisely those figures we talked about at the very 2334 02:25:23,280 --> 02:25:26,800 Speaker 1: beginning of our conversation. The Popolodorus the Publodorus are seen 2335 02:25:26,959 --> 02:25:31,760 Speaker 1: as the protagonists that protests the dictatorship, largely because they 2336 02:25:31,760 --> 02:25:33,920 Speaker 1: are right. This is I'm not trying to say that 2337 02:25:33,959 --> 02:25:37,039 Speaker 1: they were not by any means, They clearly were. Um. 2338 02:25:37,080 --> 02:25:40,800 Speaker 1: We have great studies of this. Kathy Schneider's book Shantytown 2339 02:25:40,840 --> 02:25:43,959 Speaker 1: Protests and p H Chile is just a wonderful study 2340 02:25:43,959 --> 02:25:49,400 Speaker 1: of this um. They were protagonists and the geographic space, 2341 02:25:49,480 --> 02:25:51,920 Speaker 1: the site of the Pope lacon Is, is where a 2342 02:25:51,959 --> 02:25:57,720 Speaker 1: lot of the protests are going down. UM. But labor 2343 02:25:57,800 --> 02:26:02,360 Speaker 1: did play a part, and labor did play a key part. 2344 02:26:02,959 --> 02:26:04,800 Speaker 1: And this is part of my argument is that not 2345 02:26:04,959 --> 02:26:08,119 Speaker 1: only does labor play a part, labor plays a key 2346 02:26:08,240 --> 02:26:13,360 Speaker 1: part in initiating the protests that begin in the early 2347 02:26:13,440 --> 02:26:17,600 Speaker 1: nineteen eighties. Now by the late nineteen eighties, the there 2348 02:26:17,600 --> 02:26:20,880 Speaker 1: people are certainly right that labor is no longer anything 2349 02:26:20,920 --> 02:26:23,959 Speaker 1: close to the power it was pre nineteen seventy three 2350 02:26:24,120 --> 02:26:27,440 Speaker 1: or even earlier in that decade by any means. But 2351 02:26:28,080 --> 02:26:30,600 Speaker 1: in the late nineteen seventies and the early nineteen eighties, 2352 02:26:30,959 --> 02:26:34,840 Speaker 1: specifically in the space of a kunamakina and workers that 2353 02:26:34,879 --> 02:26:40,680 Speaker 1: are coming out of that tradition play incredibly instrumental and 2354 02:26:40,760 --> 02:26:44,760 Speaker 1: key roles. So, for example, there's a gentleman Manuel boost Dos. 2355 02:26:44,760 --> 02:26:47,360 Speaker 1: It's a member of the Christian Democratic Party. He's a 2356 02:26:47,360 --> 02:26:51,080 Speaker 1: worker at the Sumar Textile mill in the cotton plants. Specifically, 2357 02:26:51,760 --> 02:26:56,480 Speaker 1: he will at the time become president of Sumars Cottons Union. 2358 02:26:57,120 --> 02:26:59,959 Speaker 1: He will then go on to along with other labor 2359 02:27:00,120 --> 02:27:04,200 Speaker 1: leaders found the National Union Coordinator where the c n S. 2360 02:27:05,560 --> 02:27:08,039 Speaker 1: You will become president of that and he will become 2361 02:27:08,080 --> 02:27:11,959 Speaker 1: one of the key figures along with other labor leaders 2362 02:27:11,959 --> 02:27:16,680 Speaker 1: that will initiate and lead to the pro democracy protests 2363 02:27:16,760 --> 02:27:20,120 Speaker 1: that begin in the early nineteen eighties. So much so 2364 02:27:20,600 --> 02:27:24,600 Speaker 1: that he is UM at one point relegated, which this 2365 02:27:24,680 --> 02:27:27,240 Speaker 1: is a way one of the tactics the military used, 2366 02:27:27,800 --> 02:27:33,520 Speaker 1: UM would be to relegate uh perceived agitators or provocateurs 2367 02:27:33,879 --> 02:27:36,879 Speaker 1: two different parts of the country right out of Stay 2368 02:27:36,920 --> 02:27:39,760 Speaker 1: Santiago in the case of Bustos, so at one point 2369 02:27:39,800 --> 02:27:41,800 Speaker 1: he is relegated to the far north of the country. 2370 02:27:42,240 --> 02:27:45,680 Speaker 1: He's also exiled at a certain point. He's also jailed 2371 02:27:45,879 --> 02:27:48,960 Speaker 1: at a certain point. UM. So even if we you know, 2372 02:27:49,280 --> 02:27:51,760 Speaker 1: even if we don't look at the archival record in 2373 02:27:51,840 --> 02:27:54,440 Speaker 1: terms of what Bustos is saying, what Bustos is doing, 2374 02:27:54,760 --> 02:27:57,120 Speaker 1: if we just look at what the military is doing 2375 02:27:57,320 --> 02:28:01,240 Speaker 1: to Bustos and to his colleagues in n S, then 2376 02:28:01,280 --> 02:28:04,960 Speaker 1: we that should tell us that they perceived them as 2377 02:28:04,959 --> 02:28:09,280 Speaker 1: a legitimate threat, and that they perceive labor as a 2378 02:28:09,360 --> 02:28:13,480 Speaker 1: legitimate threat. And this really, you know, explains why you 2379 02:28:13,560 --> 02:28:18,160 Speaker 1: have a shift in UM. The dictatorship's policies with regard 2380 02:28:18,200 --> 02:28:21,879 Speaker 1: to labor between the early nineteen seventies the late nineteen 2381 02:28:21,879 --> 02:28:24,720 Speaker 1: seventies and eighties. So here I'm drawing a lot on 2382 02:28:24,760 --> 02:28:28,560 Speaker 1: the work of Rodrigo Araya, who is a scholar here 2383 02:28:28,600 --> 02:28:31,080 Speaker 1: in Chile who has done a great deal in showing 2384 02:28:31,120 --> 02:28:35,200 Speaker 1: that early in the dictatorship you had a series of 2385 02:28:35,440 --> 02:28:38,840 Speaker 1: labor leaders who were opposed to Allende, who were still 2386 02:28:38,920 --> 02:28:43,880 Speaker 1: labor right, still pro labor, but anti Laftist and anti Allende, 2387 02:28:43,959 --> 02:28:47,400 Speaker 1: who take control of some of the key labor federations, 2388 02:28:47,560 --> 02:28:53,400 Speaker 1: namely the Copper Federation, and begin to sort of designate 2389 02:28:53,480 --> 02:28:57,920 Speaker 1: themselves as the key figures of labor UM. And there's 2390 02:28:57,920 --> 02:29:01,320 Speaker 1: an attempt then by the dictatorship, who essentially make a 2391 02:29:01,360 --> 02:29:06,200 Speaker 1: corporateist model of labor and integrate them and control them 2392 02:29:06,240 --> 02:29:10,879 Speaker 1: from the top down. UM. Ultimately that backfires because in 2393 02:29:11,040 --> 02:29:14,680 Speaker 1: doing so, they the military refuses to recognize some of 2394 02:29:14,760 --> 02:29:18,520 Speaker 1: these individuals and instill their own um sort of puppets, 2395 02:29:18,520 --> 02:29:22,000 Speaker 1: if you will, their own labor leaders, which then causes resentment, 2396 02:29:22,120 --> 02:29:27,000 Speaker 1: which then pushes that group to an oppositional stance UM, 2397 02:29:27,040 --> 02:29:31,400 Speaker 1: which then allows for more connectives to shoot more connections 2398 02:29:31,440 --> 02:29:34,320 Speaker 1: to be made between that group, which would be loosely 2399 02:29:34,360 --> 02:29:37,000 Speaker 1: referred to as the Group of ten UH and individuals 2400 02:29:37,000 --> 02:29:39,880 Speaker 1: such as Bustos and others that are forming this National 2401 02:29:39,959 --> 02:29:44,040 Speaker 1: Union Coordinator. Those two groups will ultimately in the early 2402 02:29:44,120 --> 02:29:48,440 Speaker 1: nineteen eighties form a new group, which is the National 2403 02:29:48,440 --> 02:29:52,600 Speaker 1: Workers Command UM. And this actually group is formed at 2404 02:29:52,640 --> 02:29:56,000 Speaker 1: a point in which Bustos himself has been exiled out 2405 02:29:56,000 --> 02:29:59,280 Speaker 1: of the country. UM. So, you know, there's a debate 2406 02:29:59,320 --> 02:30:01,800 Speaker 1: to be had with not the formation of the Command 2407 02:30:01,840 --> 02:30:06,440 Speaker 1: was an attempt to consolidate control away from the Union 2408 02:30:06,480 --> 02:30:09,720 Speaker 1: Coordinator and Bustos, which was much more open to working 2409 02:30:09,760 --> 02:30:12,320 Speaker 1: with members of the left and the communists at the time, 2410 02:30:12,720 --> 02:30:15,320 Speaker 1: compared to the say of the Group of Ten, who 2411 02:30:15,400 --> 02:30:19,680 Speaker 1: you know, we're much more opposed to working with leftists. UM. 2412 02:30:19,840 --> 02:30:23,240 Speaker 1: So that's really you know, one of the big differences 2413 02:30:23,280 --> 02:30:26,160 Speaker 1: between labor and a pre nineteen seventy three period and 2414 02:30:26,200 --> 02:30:30,280 Speaker 1: a post nineteen seventi three period is there's still a 2415 02:30:31,200 --> 02:30:35,360 Speaker 1: struggle for labor rights, protection of workers in unionism, right 2416 02:30:35,400 --> 02:30:38,680 Speaker 1: to strike, right to collectively bargain. But what's missing in 2417 02:30:38,680 --> 02:30:41,400 Speaker 1: that post nineteen seventy three period, or rather what has 2418 02:30:41,480 --> 02:30:47,080 Speaker 1: been murdered disappeared, tortured, executed by the dictatorship. Is a 2419 02:30:47,160 --> 02:30:52,320 Speaker 1: theory of power for unions, right, the sort of leftist influence, 2420 02:30:53,080 --> 02:30:55,760 Speaker 1: you know, you could call it Marxism, Leinism, you can 2421 02:30:55,800 --> 02:30:59,240 Speaker 1: call it sort of a social democracy, but some theory 2422 02:30:59,360 --> 02:31:03,480 Speaker 1: of power that animated unionism and animated the labor movement 2423 02:31:03,480 --> 02:31:07,080 Speaker 1: in the pre nineteen seventy three period, that is is 2424 02:31:07,600 --> 02:31:11,400 Speaker 1: essentially being purged over that course of the nineteen seventies 2425 02:31:11,440 --> 02:31:15,080 Speaker 1: into the nineteen eighties. UM. But in addition to these 2426 02:31:15,080 --> 02:31:17,959 Speaker 1: sort of national level developments, which you know, for me, 2427 02:31:18,120 --> 02:31:21,440 Speaker 1: Boostos is the straight line that connects the territory of 2428 02:31:21,560 --> 02:31:26,440 Speaker 1: Kunamacina to this national level. Within Vucunumacina itself, you have 2429 02:31:26,680 --> 02:31:29,400 Speaker 1: two groups that begin to emerge in the late nineteen 2430 02:31:29,440 --> 02:31:33,800 Speaker 1: seventies nineteen eighties. The first would be the Solidarity Group 2431 02:31:34,760 --> 02:31:38,480 Speaker 1: UH and then the second would be Union Unity. And 2432 02:31:38,720 --> 02:31:42,400 Speaker 1: both of these new organizations emerging of Acunamericana and emerged 2433 02:31:42,600 --> 02:31:48,560 Speaker 1: specifically as territorial organizations of labor. So they are in 2434 02:31:48,640 --> 02:31:52,640 Speaker 1: opposition too what BOOSTOS and others are trying to do, 2435 02:31:52,680 --> 02:31:57,400 Speaker 1: which is reform the sort of national labor hierarchy, hierarchy 2436 02:31:57,400 --> 02:32:01,840 Speaker 1: bureaucratic or you know, the bureaucratic excuse me approach to labor. 2437 02:32:02,600 --> 02:32:05,160 Speaker 1: They're specifically opposed to that and are arguing that labor 2438 02:32:05,360 --> 02:32:10,400 Speaker 1: should be organized territorially because it allows a greater flexibility 2439 02:32:10,480 --> 02:32:14,360 Speaker 1: for the workers to respond to the new realities of 2440 02:32:14,400 --> 02:32:19,040 Speaker 1: a dictatorship, and specifically to the new realities of the 2441 02:32:19,200 --> 02:32:23,280 Speaker 1: new constitution that the dictatorship puts in place in as 2442 02:32:23,280 --> 02:32:25,840 Speaker 1: well as the new labor plan that they put in 2443 02:32:25,879 --> 02:32:28,640 Speaker 1: place through a series of laws in the late nineteen 2444 02:32:28,680 --> 02:32:34,120 Speaker 1: seventies in early nineties that severely curtail labor's ability to 2445 02:32:34,440 --> 02:32:39,279 Speaker 1: both organize. So, for example, the closed shop is essentially 2446 02:32:39,280 --> 02:32:44,280 Speaker 1: done away with. UH. They also, UM will limit the 2447 02:32:44,320 --> 02:32:48,760 Speaker 1: ability to strike. You could you can strike, However, after 2448 02:32:48,879 --> 02:32:55,959 Speaker 1: thirty days UM the management can begin hiring scab labors 2449 02:32:56,080 --> 02:32:59,120 Speaker 1: essentially to break the strike. And if a strike lasted 2450 02:32:59,160 --> 02:33:03,040 Speaker 1: past sixty days, that the management was allowed to fire 2451 02:33:03,200 --> 02:33:05,680 Speaker 1: all of striking workers because after sixty days they were 2452 02:33:05,680 --> 02:33:08,240 Speaker 1: considered to have walked off the job and we're no 2453 02:33:08,280 --> 02:33:12,680 Speaker 1: longer considered employees. Also, one of the key you know 2454 02:33:12,800 --> 02:33:17,280 Speaker 1: innovations that the sort of technocratic advisors to the dictatorship 2455 02:33:17,320 --> 02:33:21,160 Speaker 1: as um implements in the new labor Code is the 2456 02:33:21,280 --> 02:33:26,720 Speaker 1: individual labor contract, right, which means that workers now are 2457 02:33:26,760 --> 02:33:30,920 Speaker 1: contracted individually, which also then prevents any sort of national 2458 02:33:31,040 --> 02:33:35,160 Speaker 1: level union from bargaining on behalf of a sector wide 2459 02:33:35,280 --> 02:33:38,760 Speaker 1: or an industry wide contract. That is no longer allowed. 2460 02:33:39,200 --> 02:33:41,360 Speaker 1: And so it's for all of those reasons that you 2461 02:33:41,400 --> 02:33:44,280 Speaker 1: have these two groups begin to emerge and saying no, 2462 02:33:44,440 --> 02:33:46,920 Speaker 1: we need to focus our efforts on the base, we 2463 02:33:46,959 --> 02:33:50,600 Speaker 1: need to focus them territorially. And for me, that is 2464 02:33:50,640 --> 02:33:54,160 Speaker 1: a straight line between the legacy of the cordonis and 2465 02:33:54,160 --> 02:33:56,360 Speaker 1: what we're seeing in the nineties, and then the other 2466 02:33:56,520 --> 02:33:59,439 Speaker 1: sort of discursive straight line, like if that's the material 2467 02:33:59,760 --> 02:34:04,520 Speaker 1: kind action, the discursive straightliness of these organizations are using 2468 02:34:04,560 --> 02:34:07,720 Speaker 1: the discourse of dignity and a dignified life in the 2469 02:34:07,800 --> 02:34:10,440 Speaker 1: ex source material that we have. That makes sense, and 2470 02:34:10,640 --> 02:34:13,560 Speaker 1: I think that also, But that also, I guess partly 2471 02:34:13,600 --> 02:34:19,680 Speaker 1: explains why, like why organized labor like ceases after that point, 2472 02:34:19,800 --> 02:34:22,560 Speaker 1: because I guess it is just sort of like the 2473 02:34:23,280 --> 02:34:26,520 Speaker 1: it's the sort of the the anilable shifts in what's 2474 02:34:26,560 --> 02:34:30,720 Speaker 1: happening in terms of the actual law. And then actually, 2475 02:34:30,760 --> 02:34:32,520 Speaker 1: I don't know, I guess I just should ask about this, 2476 02:34:32,560 --> 02:34:35,200 Speaker 1: like is there also a sort of like like you 2477 02:34:35,240 --> 02:34:41,000 Speaker 1: also get a sort of like like another sort of 2478 02:34:41,040 --> 02:34:46,200 Speaker 1: geographic shift in in how factories are distributed, like through 2479 02:34:46,200 --> 02:34:50,200 Speaker 1: the use Totally you have essentially a d industrialization, a 2480 02:34:50,280 --> 02:34:53,000 Speaker 1: policy of the industrialization, and you have a total reversion 2481 02:34:53,160 --> 02:34:56,040 Speaker 1: to what we can think of as a nineteenth century 2482 02:34:56,600 --> 02:35:00,440 Speaker 1: economic export economy UM for Chile. Right, so you have 2483 02:35:01,200 --> 02:35:06,640 Speaker 1: much more focus and investment into commodity exports, be it UM, 2484 02:35:06,680 --> 02:35:10,680 Speaker 1: the fishing sector, the agricultural sector, things like that. Right. So, like, 2485 02:35:10,800 --> 02:35:13,480 Speaker 1: for example, if you go into your grocery store, uh 2486 02:35:13,520 --> 02:35:16,680 Speaker 1: and look at some of the fruits, specifically, say grapes, 2487 02:35:17,360 --> 02:35:18,960 Speaker 1: more often than not they're going to come from Chile, 2488 02:35:19,920 --> 02:35:23,160 Speaker 1: especially in off seasons. Right. The benefit of Chile being 2489 02:35:23,160 --> 02:35:25,720 Speaker 1: in the southern hemisphere, for say, consumers in the United 2490 02:35:25,760 --> 02:35:28,280 Speaker 1: States is that then you have access to things that 2491 02:35:28,360 --> 02:35:31,360 Speaker 1: you wouldn't have access to otherwise. Uh. And so the 2492 02:35:31,400 --> 02:35:36,720 Speaker 1: dictatorship will prioritize this UM over the idea of industry. 2493 02:35:36,720 --> 02:35:42,840 Speaker 1: So you have a total reversion to UM, importing goods 2494 02:35:42,840 --> 02:35:48,080 Speaker 1: and services that would have been produced nationally or locally UM. 2495 02:35:48,160 --> 02:35:50,280 Speaker 1: And so what this means then for a lot of 2496 02:35:50,360 --> 02:35:53,920 Speaker 1: the labor that happens in these zones right as you 2497 02:35:53,920 --> 02:35:58,959 Speaker 1: have massive layoffs. That's another innovation UM that the dictatorship 2498 02:35:59,040 --> 02:36:01,840 Speaker 1: and the Chicago Boys will introduce as the ability for 2499 02:36:02,240 --> 02:36:06,520 Speaker 1: management to fire UM at a mass level and have 2500 02:36:06,640 --> 02:36:10,280 Speaker 1: that be legal UM. And so you have high you 2501 02:36:10,320 --> 02:36:17,360 Speaker 1: have skyrocketing unemployment amongst factory label labor, such that like yes, 2502 02:36:17,440 --> 02:36:20,600 Speaker 1: by the nineteen eighties have a refounding of a national 2503 02:36:20,680 --> 02:36:26,199 Speaker 1: labor confederation also the acronym being the COOT. The difference, however, 2504 02:36:26,280 --> 02:36:29,879 Speaker 1: is that it's under such a much different labor framework. 2505 02:36:30,320 --> 02:36:32,920 Speaker 1: It's also in a situation in which industrial labor is 2506 02:36:32,959 --> 02:36:36,560 Speaker 1: just not the main sector of labor UH and in 2507 02:36:36,640 --> 02:36:40,320 Speaker 1: its founding statutes, if the Coup pre nineteen seventy three 2508 02:36:40,360 --> 02:36:45,000 Speaker 1: was identified as the only national labor confederation, the statutes 2509 02:36:45,200 --> 02:36:49,680 Speaker 1: poste and in the late eighties when it's reformed, allows 2510 02:36:49,720 --> 02:36:53,480 Speaker 1: for there to be other national confederations UM. And actually, 2511 02:36:53,560 --> 02:36:55,879 Speaker 1: this is one of the great debates that takes place 2512 02:36:56,240 --> 02:37:01,720 Speaker 1: between those organizations at the base Infocuamkina and these national 2513 02:37:01,800 --> 02:37:04,400 Speaker 1: level organizations is whether or not there should be one 2514 02:37:05,160 --> 02:37:07,760 Speaker 1: labor confederation or whether or not there should be many 2515 02:37:07,800 --> 02:37:12,440 Speaker 1: different labor confederations organized all ideological lines, which is essentially 2516 02:37:12,480 --> 02:37:16,600 Speaker 1: a code word for anti communism. Right. That the idea 2517 02:37:16,600 --> 02:37:21,039 Speaker 1: of the ideological labor central was a way to exclude 2518 02:37:21,160 --> 02:37:24,720 Speaker 1: the left from gaining control in organized labor like it 2519 02:37:24,760 --> 02:37:28,040 Speaker 1: had in the pre nineteen period. And so by the 2520 02:37:28,160 --> 02:37:32,359 Speaker 1: dawn of nineteen nineties, when democracy, or rather when democratic 2521 02:37:32,400 --> 02:37:37,000 Speaker 1: elections returned to Chile, you have labor in a much 2522 02:37:37,160 --> 02:37:40,960 Speaker 1: different position. Uh. And that's why you have this very 2523 02:37:41,000 --> 02:37:47,160 Speaker 1: weakening UM series or period under the Concert government, the 2524 02:37:47,240 --> 02:37:51,640 Speaker 1: ruling coalition, the governing coalition that takes power in Patricia 2525 02:37:51,680 --> 02:37:55,800 Speaker 1: Apo and winning the presidency. Um, it's just much different. 2526 02:37:56,480 --> 02:37:59,080 Speaker 1: And it's it's a strait jacket illegally because the ninete 2527 02:37:59,360 --> 02:38:01,640 Speaker 1: Constitution is still in place, right, it's still in place 2528 02:38:01,680 --> 02:38:06,280 Speaker 1: to this day. Uh. And that's actually been it's the 2529 02:38:06,600 --> 02:38:09,480 Speaker 1: period of Concert test that is the period where you 2530 02:38:09,640 --> 02:38:14,200 Speaker 1: really have the most weakening of UM labor. It's also 2531 02:38:14,240 --> 02:38:17,760 Speaker 1: the period we have the most privatizations that are taking place, 2532 02:38:17,959 --> 02:38:21,240 Speaker 1: just former state owned companies. It's we could say that 2533 02:38:21,320 --> 02:38:25,199 Speaker 1: it's the period that is the most neoliberal period UH 2534 02:38:25,240 --> 02:38:29,520 Speaker 1: in Chile relative to the civilian The period of civilian 2535 02:38:29,520 --> 02:38:36,680 Speaker 1: military dictatorship. Yeah, and I guess that's sort of like 2536 02:38:36,760 --> 02:38:41,480 Speaker 1: that that that's the thing that it just gets you to, Well, 2537 02:38:41,520 --> 02:38:44,920 Speaker 1: the last sort of twenty years of like of student 2538 02:38:45,000 --> 02:38:47,800 Speaker 1: led protests and of sort of ecological protests I make 2539 02:38:47,879 --> 02:38:51,320 Speaker 1: I guess you like Thempucha have always been like fighting, 2540 02:38:51,600 --> 02:38:56,520 Speaker 1: but the way that from from Spanish clone the only 2541 02:38:56,959 --> 02:39:00,520 Speaker 1: indigenous group that was never conquered by the Spanish, but 2542 02:39:00,680 --> 02:39:03,480 Speaker 1: a gain. But I guess like like the axis on 2543 02:39:03,560 --> 02:39:07,520 Speaker 1: which the left is sort of like built on like 2544 02:39:07,920 --> 02:39:10,920 Speaker 1: through that period just shifts and that's I guess where 2545 02:39:10,959 --> 02:39:14,000 Speaker 1: you get the modern like that the sort of modern 2546 02:39:14,360 --> 02:39:16,880 Speaker 1: like configuration of the left that's been in the streets 2547 02:39:16,879 --> 02:39:19,480 Speaker 1: and last sort of like you do. And this is 2548 02:39:19,480 --> 02:39:22,440 Speaker 1: a this is the reason why I sort of draw 2549 02:39:22,920 --> 02:39:27,000 Speaker 1: a hard line ending my study in for two reasons. 2550 02:39:27,040 --> 02:39:30,560 Speaker 1: One is that it's the is The first is the 2551 02:39:30,600 --> 02:39:35,760 Speaker 1: election of Pineta to the president city, Sebastian Pinietta as 2552 02:39:35,840 --> 02:39:38,760 Speaker 1: his first term in and so it's the first moment 2553 02:39:38,800 --> 02:39:42,480 Speaker 1: that someone from the concertson is not elected as the 2554 02:39:42,480 --> 02:39:48,760 Speaker 1: president they had governed sent from. So um that's really 2555 02:39:48,800 --> 02:39:51,760 Speaker 1: the what Peter Win and other scholars have referred to 2556 02:39:51,800 --> 02:39:54,640 Speaker 1: as the putch check period which extends all the way 2557 02:39:54,760 --> 02:39:58,840 Speaker 1: from three to that moment, is inclusive of the Concert 2558 02:39:59,320 --> 02:40:05,959 Speaker 1: government because of fair um adherence to the neoliberal economic model. UM. 2559 02:40:06,040 --> 02:40:09,800 Speaker 1: That's when that period ends. Also a year later in 2560 02:40:10,240 --> 02:40:13,440 Speaker 1: eleven is when the student protests, and that's when you 2561 02:40:13,520 --> 02:40:18,400 Speaker 1: have a new cycle in Chilean social movements led by 2562 02:40:18,440 --> 02:40:22,480 Speaker 1: the students. Right prior, you know posted the return of 2563 02:40:22,520 --> 02:40:26,280 Speaker 1: democracy again, the return of democratic elections in nineteen ninety. 2564 02:40:26,320 --> 02:40:28,960 Speaker 1: I think this is a very important distinction between a 2565 02:40:29,040 --> 02:40:32,120 Speaker 1: return to democracy and a return of democratic elections, which 2566 02:40:32,280 --> 02:40:34,560 Speaker 1: seems to be a confusion between not a confusion but 2567 02:40:34,640 --> 02:40:39,000 Speaker 1: a splippage between the form of democracy, a free and 2568 02:40:39,040 --> 02:40:44,160 Speaker 1: fair elections, and the content of democracy UM. And so 2569 02:40:44,200 --> 02:40:46,040 Speaker 1: a lot of people will referred to nineteen nineties to 2570 02:40:46,080 --> 02:40:48,880 Speaker 1: return to democracy. But I think that the past thirty 2571 02:40:48,959 --> 02:40:53,920 Speaker 1: years of governments in Chile shows us, especially the past 2572 02:40:53,920 --> 02:40:58,440 Speaker 1: two years of uprising and resistance against that model, show 2573 02:40:58,520 --> 02:41:02,680 Speaker 1: us that democracy has yet to fully return UM. But 2574 02:41:02,800 --> 02:41:06,000 Speaker 1: in that period, you know, in the nine nineties, on 2575 02:41:06,640 --> 02:41:12,600 Speaker 1: street protests were not seeing as an affected effective measure 2576 02:41:13,480 --> 02:41:16,720 Speaker 1: UM as a as as the way to protest. Right, 2577 02:41:16,760 --> 02:41:21,960 Speaker 1: they obviously were effective in the period of dictatorship UM. 2578 02:41:22,000 --> 02:41:25,520 Speaker 1: But after that there's no there there's a nut not 2579 02:41:25,600 --> 02:41:30,000 Speaker 1: necessarily discrediting of sorts, right, but there's not the emphasis 2580 02:41:30,040 --> 02:41:33,400 Speaker 1: on them that there was during the dictatorship, and certainly 2581 02:41:33,400 --> 02:41:36,000 Speaker 1: not that there was in the pre nineteen three period. 2582 02:41:36,360 --> 02:41:39,160 Speaker 1: It's not until the students take to the streets in 2583 02:41:39,600 --> 02:41:43,359 Speaker 1: eleven that you have this revival of the street protest 2584 02:41:43,560 --> 02:41:47,480 Speaker 1: as a as a viable form um of resistance and 2585 02:41:47,520 --> 02:41:50,200 Speaker 1: protests in Chile. And you know, it's no surprise then 2586 02:41:50,280 --> 02:41:54,400 Speaker 1: that in October twenty nineteen, when the the s e 2587 02:41:54,440 --> 02:41:58,199 Speaker 1: though the uprising takes place, that it's students that were 2588 02:41:58,360 --> 02:42:02,280 Speaker 1: once again the vanguard of this UM. And you know 2589 02:42:02,320 --> 02:42:06,600 Speaker 1: when they're jumping turnstiles in the subways too, in protest 2590 02:42:06,800 --> 02:42:10,600 Speaker 1: of proposed transportation hike. UM I was. I was actually 2591 02:42:10,680 --> 02:42:15,080 Speaker 1: luckily enough to be living here in early pandemic UM, 2592 02:42:15,120 --> 02:42:17,879 Speaker 1: and a lot of people that I spoke to UM 2593 02:42:17,920 --> 02:42:21,039 Speaker 1: at protests and things like that, were very quick to 2594 02:42:21,160 --> 02:42:24,960 Speaker 1: tell me that it was not thirty pos it's thirty 2595 02:42:25,040 --> 02:42:28,840 Speaker 1: years that they were protesting. Yeah, And you know, and 2596 02:42:28,879 --> 02:42:32,640 Speaker 1: I guess that also like the left wing forces that 2597 02:42:32,680 --> 02:42:35,400 Speaker 1: took over the state like it's it's it's the reason 2598 02:42:35,480 --> 02:42:38,440 Speaker 1: why a lot of that wounds up sort of being 2599 02:42:38,440 --> 02:42:42,080 Speaker 1: about the constitution, because yeah, you know you still have this, 2600 02:42:42,720 --> 02:42:50,040 Speaker 1: you still have Pinochet's like constition remains in fact. Yeah, yeah, 2601 02:42:50,160 --> 02:42:52,600 Speaker 1: And how I used to know the name of this 2602 02:42:52,600 --> 02:42:54,000 Speaker 1: is and one of the episodes, I think, I think 2603 02:42:54,040 --> 02:42:56,520 Speaker 1: like the guy who wrote it like it was like 2604 02:42:56,560 --> 02:42:59,400 Speaker 1: an enormous hyak fanboy and called it like the Constitution 2605 02:42:59,440 --> 02:43:02,720 Speaker 1: of Liberty or something. Yeah, it was. It was a 2606 02:43:02,760 --> 02:43:06,200 Speaker 1: hand it was a hand selected team of very few 2607 02:43:06,200 --> 02:43:11,160 Speaker 1: individuals that was handpicked by the dictatorship to write the constitution. Um. 2608 02:43:11,200 --> 02:43:13,879 Speaker 1: You know, there was the there was a veneer of 2609 02:43:14,640 --> 02:43:19,920 Speaker 1: democratic support insofar as the dictatorship in nineteen eighty holds 2610 02:43:20,040 --> 02:43:24,000 Speaker 1: a referendum on whether or not to vote up, down, yes, 2611 02:43:24,120 --> 02:43:28,959 Speaker 1: or no for the new constitution. Right, um, the yes 2612 02:43:29,200 --> 02:43:34,600 Speaker 1: vote one. However, there is many sources at the time 2613 02:43:34,840 --> 02:43:38,320 Speaker 1: as well as scholars that have claimed that that victory 2614 02:43:38,440 --> 02:43:44,560 Speaker 1: was not a valid victory um by any means. Um. 2615 02:43:44,600 --> 02:43:50,520 Speaker 1: But you know, right now, in the post twenty nineteen period, um, 2616 02:43:50,840 --> 02:43:54,160 Speaker 1: a sort of effect of the uprising that took places, 2617 02:43:54,160 --> 02:43:57,120 Speaker 1: there is a constitutional convention that's taking place as we 2618 02:43:57,200 --> 02:44:01,600 Speaker 1: speak here in Santiago, UM that's headquartered in the former 2619 02:44:01,680 --> 02:44:07,000 Speaker 1: National Congress. During the dictatorship, the h Congress has moved 2620 02:44:07,160 --> 02:44:09,960 Speaker 1: to the ports city of the Appraiso away from Santiago, 2621 02:44:10,640 --> 02:44:12,760 Speaker 1: but in the old National Congress building is where the 2622 02:44:12,760 --> 02:44:15,800 Speaker 1: new Constitution provision has taken place. And actually two nights 2623 02:44:15,800 --> 02:44:20,280 Speaker 1: ago there was a marathon voting session in which a 2624 02:44:20,320 --> 02:44:24,360 Speaker 1: series of social rights were adopted into the cost into 2625 02:44:24,400 --> 02:44:27,560 Speaker 1: the text of the new Constitution. And these social rights included, 2626 02:44:27,600 --> 02:44:31,600 Speaker 1: among other things, the right to unionization, the right to strike, 2627 02:44:32,360 --> 02:44:36,840 Speaker 1: the right to collectively bargain, the right for workers via unions, 2628 02:44:37,000 --> 02:44:41,480 Speaker 1: to have a say in the direction and business of 2629 02:44:41,560 --> 02:44:45,800 Speaker 1: an enterprise of a business itself, to participate in management essentially. 2630 02:44:46,640 --> 02:44:48,720 Speaker 1: But it also included things such as a right to 2631 02:44:48,840 --> 02:44:53,040 Speaker 1: healthcare publicly funded healthcare system, the right to social security 2632 02:44:53,440 --> 02:44:58,840 Speaker 1: publicly funded and it included a right to housing, which 2633 02:44:59,000 --> 02:45:02,600 Speaker 1: specifically include the phrase of a right to a dignified, 2634 02:45:02,959 --> 02:45:06,279 Speaker 1: adequate home, as well as a right to the city 2635 02:45:06,360 --> 02:45:09,439 Speaker 1: that included the phrase that the right to the city 2636 02:45:09,640 --> 02:45:13,360 Speaker 1: is for the development of a dignified life. Uh. And 2637 02:45:13,440 --> 02:45:16,879 Speaker 1: so really that is kind of the epilogue UM to 2638 02:45:16,879 --> 02:45:19,360 Speaker 1: to the story that we've been talking about this whole time. Now, 2639 02:45:19,560 --> 02:45:22,280 Speaker 1: you know, we don't know if the constitution itself will 2640 02:45:22,280 --> 02:45:24,959 Speaker 1: be adopted. Um. There's going to be an exit vote 2641 02:45:25,040 --> 02:45:28,840 Speaker 1: on September four of this year in which Chileans, under 2642 02:45:29,440 --> 02:45:32,039 Speaker 1: it's a mandatory vote, will vote up or down on 2643 02:45:32,040 --> 02:45:34,680 Speaker 1: whether or not to adopt the new constitution. So we 2644 02:45:34,680 --> 02:45:38,000 Speaker 1: can't say for certain if these rights will actually become 2645 02:45:38,120 --> 02:45:42,680 Speaker 1: rights of citizenship in Chile, but as of now, those 2646 02:45:42,800 --> 02:45:45,520 Speaker 1: rights are included in the text that will be voted 2647 02:45:45,520 --> 02:45:49,000 Speaker 1: on in September. Yeah, and I think I think that's 2648 02:45:49,000 --> 02:45:50,600 Speaker 1: a pretty good place to end it, unless you have 2649 02:45:50,680 --> 02:45:52,360 Speaker 1: anything else that you want to know. I think that 2650 02:45:52,400 --> 02:45:55,360 Speaker 1: that's a really you know, there's a really nice symmetry there. Um. 2651 02:45:55,600 --> 02:45:57,160 Speaker 1: And you know, I stayed up are too late the 2652 02:45:57,200 --> 02:45:59,440 Speaker 1: other night watching that vote. I think it went to 2653 02:45:59,480 --> 02:46:02,680 Speaker 1: like two in the morning. Um, but it was you know, 2654 02:46:02,720 --> 02:46:05,640 Speaker 1: it was an exciting thing to see. Um. And you know, 2655 02:46:05,680 --> 02:46:08,920 Speaker 1: it is an exciting moment to be here in Chile, 2656 02:46:10,040 --> 02:46:12,360 Speaker 1: especially after having to be away for two years during 2657 02:46:12,440 --> 02:46:16,560 Speaker 1: during the pandemic. Yeah. Um, yeah, well, thank thank you 2658 02:46:16,640 --> 02:46:20,200 Speaker 1: so much for thank you so much for talking with us. Oh, 2659 02:46:20,200 --> 02:46:21,959 Speaker 1: thank you thank you so much for having me. It's 2660 02:46:21,959 --> 02:46:24,000 Speaker 1: been a it's been a real pleasure, you know. And 2661 02:46:24,040 --> 02:46:27,680 Speaker 1: I hope that um my ramblings are are sensible to 2662 02:46:27,720 --> 02:46:31,200 Speaker 1: your listeners, um and um, that they're able to take 2663 02:46:31,240 --> 02:46:34,320 Speaker 1: something from it, because I do think there's an importance 2664 02:46:34,840 --> 02:46:36,959 Speaker 1: in this history especially you know, this year is the 2665 02:46:36,959 --> 02:46:41,240 Speaker 1: fifty year anniversary of the Cordonos emergence, and so it's 2666 02:46:41,240 --> 02:46:43,360 Speaker 1: a great time to to sort of spread knowledge of 2667 02:46:43,360 --> 02:46:47,120 Speaker 1: this this moment in tril in history. Yeah, and I 2668 02:46:47,120 --> 02:46:50,199 Speaker 1: guess do you have anything like that you want to plug? 2669 02:46:52,400 --> 02:46:55,560 Speaker 1: Uh No, I don't have anything specifically, Um. Yeah, no, 2670 02:46:55,720 --> 02:46:59,480 Speaker 1: still cranking away in the archives and working on my dissertation. 2671 02:46:59,680 --> 02:47:02,200 Speaker 1: So sadly I don't have a book to plug or 2672 02:47:02,200 --> 02:47:03,800 Speaker 1: anything like that. But you know, give me a couple 2673 02:47:03,840 --> 02:47:07,879 Speaker 1: of years. Uh, and I a book back on when 2674 02:47:07,920 --> 02:47:14,640 Speaker 1: it comes out. Yeah. Yeah. Well, in the meantime, you 2675 02:47:14,879 --> 02:47:20,200 Speaker 1: two can form a large section of industrial democracy in 2676 02:47:20,200 --> 02:47:24,240 Speaker 1: your workplace. Involves taking it over. Oh yeah, go go 2677 02:47:24,320 --> 02:47:27,320 Speaker 1: do that. This this has been they could happen here. 2678 02:47:27,400 --> 02:47:29,280 Speaker 1: You can find us on Twitter and Instagram. It happen 2679 02:47:29,320 --> 02:47:32,480 Speaker 1: here pod. Actually, by the time this is dropping, we 2680 02:47:32,520 --> 02:47:35,320 Speaker 1: will be a few days away from Merket. Killdoy's new 2681 02:47:35,360 --> 02:47:38,520 Speaker 1: series Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff, which is rad. 2682 02:47:38,800 --> 02:47:41,760 Speaker 1: You're gonna hear a lot of cool people doing cool things. 2683 02:47:41,760 --> 02:47:44,400 Speaker 1: That is dropping on May Day on May one, and 2684 02:47:45,240 --> 02:47:47,760 Speaker 1: after that we have we we we have another show dropping, 2685 02:47:47,840 --> 02:47:50,440 Speaker 1: which is which is which is a Ghost Church about 2686 02:47:51,040 --> 02:47:53,920 Speaker 1: ghost church eat things. It's It's gonna be good. It's 2687 02:47:53,920 --> 02:47:56,360 Speaker 1: it's Jamie Loftus. It's Jamie loft Is doing Jamie Loftus 2688 02:47:56,400 --> 02:47:58,680 Speaker 1: things about a bunch of a bunch of the sort 2689 02:47:58,680 --> 02:48:02,680 Speaker 1: of like American ghost churches and people who talk to ghosts. 2690 02:48:02,720 --> 02:48:22,360 Speaker 1: So yeah, go listen to that. Have fun by everyone, Hello, 2691 02:48:22,400 --> 02:48:25,280 Speaker 1: welcome to it could happen here the podcast that is 2692 02:48:25,320 --> 02:48:28,879 Speaker 1: my podcast Now. I'm your host, Margaret Killjoy and with 2693 02:48:28,920 --> 02:48:32,960 Speaker 1: me is the Webby Award winning Sophie Lichterman as our producer, 2694 02:48:33,640 --> 02:48:37,480 Speaker 1: as well as the actual hosts of the show, who 2695 02:48:38,280 --> 02:48:41,320 Speaker 1: go without mentioning because I don't see any reason to 2696 02:48:41,360 --> 02:48:46,840 Speaker 1: include them. Can that just be the intro to every 2697 02:48:46,840 --> 02:48:51,320 Speaker 1: episode from now? This is better than our all of 2698 02:48:51,360 --> 02:48:58,000 Speaker 1: our regular intros. Oh I loved that. Um yeah, so 2699 02:48:58,640 --> 02:49:01,400 Speaker 1: what are we talking about today? Also on podcast, Garrison 2700 02:49:01,480 --> 02:49:05,840 Speaker 1: Davis and Christopher Wong Lou. Yes. So, so today we 2701 02:49:05,879 --> 02:49:09,879 Speaker 1: are we are talking about the sort of long and 2702 02:49:09,920 --> 02:49:14,560 Speaker 1: incredibly tragic history of Japanese anarchism. Well, okay, actually Japanese 2703 02:49:14,600 --> 02:49:17,360 Speaker 1: anarchism before World War Two, because after World War Two 2704 02:49:17,360 --> 02:49:20,320 Speaker 1: was an entirely different story. And as much as I 2705 02:49:20,360 --> 02:49:22,600 Speaker 1: love people in construction helmets just like beating the ship 2706 02:49:22,640 --> 02:49:26,040 Speaker 1: out of cops with large sticks, uh, that story is 2707 02:49:26,080 --> 02:49:29,320 Speaker 1: extremely complicated. If you want to hear it, talk more 2708 02:49:29,360 --> 02:49:32,039 Speaker 1: about that story a little bit. Uh. The third part 2709 02:49:32,040 --> 02:49:34,800 Speaker 1: of my Nobasi Kikishi episode has a lot of people 2710 02:49:34,879 --> 02:49:38,280 Speaker 1: in construction help us with sticks. But you know this 2711 02:49:38,360 --> 02:49:43,120 Speaker 1: is you know, okay, So the history of anarchism generally 2712 02:49:43,320 --> 02:49:47,160 Speaker 1: is the history of tragedy, but even by by anarchist standards, 2713 02:49:47,200 --> 02:49:49,720 Speaker 1: the the history of Japanese anarchism is just an absolute 2714 02:49:49,720 --> 02:49:52,840 Speaker 1: welter of heartbreak and loss. Um. Out of all of 2715 02:49:52,879 --> 02:49:55,359 Speaker 1: the people that we're going to talk about today, exactly 2716 02:49:55,440 --> 02:49:57,560 Speaker 1: one of the non Russian anarchist is going to live 2717 02:49:57,600 --> 02:49:59,120 Speaker 1: to see world the end of World War two, and 2718 02:49:59,160 --> 02:50:02,640 Speaker 1: he's Korean. Every single other person is either going to 2719 02:50:02,760 --> 02:50:05,560 Speaker 1: be executed by the state, assassinated, kill themselves, drink themselves 2720 02:50:05,560 --> 02:50:09,920 Speaker 1: to death, so this is uh, this is this is 2721 02:50:09,920 --> 02:50:12,600 Speaker 1: an extreme bleak story in a lot of ways. Good 2722 02:50:12,640 --> 02:50:14,800 Speaker 1: to have one of those optimistic episodes every once in 2723 02:50:14,840 --> 02:50:18,160 Speaker 1: a while. Yeah, you know, I mean I think the 2724 02:50:19,600 --> 02:50:24,880 Speaker 1: gets thrown down a well. Uh, well, okay, it's it's 2725 02:50:24,959 --> 02:50:28,280 Speaker 1: unclear whether anyone got thrown down away. I'm sorry, I'm 2726 02:50:28,320 --> 02:50:32,240 Speaker 1: skipping ahead and I don't actually know. Well, we will, 2727 02:50:32,280 --> 02:50:35,880 Speaker 1: we will get to the wells uh yeah. I also okay, 2728 02:50:35,879 --> 02:50:38,480 Speaker 1: so there's a lot of Japanese anarchists and we don't 2729 02:50:38,480 --> 02:50:41,480 Speaker 1: have that much time. So if you're like in a 2730 02:50:41,600 --> 02:50:47,080 Speaker 1: sawa u sakataro, stand um, I'm sorry, we can't cover 2731 02:50:47,160 --> 02:50:50,240 Speaker 1: all of them. Do you ever think about the history 2732 02:50:50,240 --> 02:50:53,920 Speaker 1: of anarchists in Japan? That is weird is that the 2733 02:50:53,959 --> 02:50:57,440 Speaker 1: beginning of the story pre dates they're actually being anarchists 2734 02:50:57,440 --> 02:51:01,080 Speaker 1: in Japan, or specifically, they're being up in the anarchists. Um. 2735 02:51:01,680 --> 02:51:05,040 Speaker 1: There's this huge degree of sort of like cultural exchange 2736 02:51:05,040 --> 02:51:09,640 Speaker 1: and influence running between Japan and Russia by riche of 2737 02:51:09,720 --> 02:51:12,600 Speaker 1: the fact that they are, you know, next to each other, um, 2738 02:51:14,040 --> 02:51:17,240 Speaker 1: and especially in the seventies and eighties. This is one 2739 02:51:17,280 --> 02:51:21,160 Speaker 1: of the sort of this is important again because Russia 2740 02:51:21,400 --> 02:51:23,360 Speaker 1: in this period is like this is like the hotbed 2741 02:51:23,400 --> 02:51:25,680 Speaker 1: of anarchism, right, like they're they're killing, they're killing those 2742 02:51:25,720 --> 02:51:28,320 Speaker 1: are they're they're they're doing all the things. They're going 2743 02:51:28,360 --> 02:51:31,280 Speaker 1: to the countryside there. The Russian anarchists are short of 2744 02:51:31,320 --> 02:51:33,800 Speaker 1: on the move, and a lot of things the Russian 2745 02:51:33,840 --> 02:51:36,959 Speaker 1: anarchists wind up like in Japan, baccoon In is there 2746 02:51:37,000 --> 02:51:41,040 Speaker 1: for like he like he has some extremely complicated arrangement 2747 02:51:41,080 --> 02:51:43,560 Speaker 1: who like he like sneaks on a boat and he 2748 02:51:43,640 --> 02:51:45,560 Speaker 1: like gets out and he beats one of the sort 2749 02:51:45,560 --> 02:51:49,840 Speaker 1: of like samurai like Beiji Restoration revolutionaries and they chat 2750 02:51:49,840 --> 02:51:53,600 Speaker 1: for a bit and then he leaves. So he he 2751 02:51:53,720 --> 02:51:56,040 Speaker 1: you know, but you's not. This is when he was 2752 02:51:56,160 --> 02:52:00,720 Speaker 1: escaping Siberia. Yeah, well I think, yeah, he's get my Siberia. 2753 02:52:00,760 --> 02:52:04,520 Speaker 1: And then he somehow convinces like the American embassy or 2754 02:52:04,600 --> 02:52:06,600 Speaker 1: something to like let him on a boat to Japan. 2755 02:52:07,160 --> 02:52:10,119 Speaker 1: It's it's a very weird story. It's like all things 2756 02:52:10,680 --> 02:52:14,280 Speaker 1: bakun In are. But the most problem in anarchists to 2757 02:52:14,280 --> 02:52:18,920 Speaker 1: spend time in Japan is uh Lev Meshnikov. Um Mashnikov 2758 02:52:19,040 --> 02:52:21,600 Speaker 1: is like he's like a pretty big deal in Russian 2759 02:52:21,600 --> 02:52:25,440 Speaker 1: Revolutionary circles like he's he's considered like okay, so the 2760 02:52:26,040 --> 02:52:29,160 Speaker 1: big sort of like anarchists left wing moving to Japan 2761 02:52:29,200 --> 02:52:32,200 Speaker 1: is the populist right. It's called the road nicks Um 2762 02:52:33,720 --> 02:52:36,480 Speaker 1: and there there's two big figures in it. There's uh 2763 02:52:36,720 --> 02:52:42,800 Speaker 1: Nikolai Turnachevski and uh this guy, uh Lev Menshikov, and 2764 02:52:43,879 --> 02:52:46,960 Speaker 1: you know, he's Manikov like he knows everyone he knows, 2765 02:52:47,000 --> 02:52:50,560 Speaker 1: like he's friends, was just like every single person and 2766 02:52:50,640 --> 02:52:53,160 Speaker 1: we will get too more of his friends later. But 2767 02:52:53,240 --> 02:52:55,160 Speaker 1: like he's a kind of part of bakun in Um. 2768 02:52:55,480 --> 02:52:57,120 Speaker 1: He he has. He has a very similar career to 2769 02:52:57,160 --> 02:52:58,520 Speaker 1: Beacun in a lot of ways, where he just sort 2770 02:52:58,520 --> 02:53:01,680 Speaker 1: of like runs a especially like Eastern Europe. He's like 2771 02:53:01,760 --> 02:53:05,600 Speaker 1: runs around the world being in revolutions um, which is 2772 02:53:05,640 --> 02:53:07,720 Speaker 1: good work if you can get it. Yeah, yeah, it's 2773 02:53:07,720 --> 02:53:09,520 Speaker 1: it's pretty exciting. And he doesn't die, which is sort 2774 02:53:09,520 --> 02:53:13,760 Speaker 1: of incredible. Well, I love that for him, So he's 2775 02:53:13,760 --> 02:53:21,400 Speaker 1: still around. Yes, this is very sad, you know, I 2776 02:53:21,440 --> 02:53:23,720 Speaker 1: mean he look, look, this is this is the goal 2777 02:53:23,720 --> 02:53:26,680 Speaker 1: of Russian cosmism. No is it actually cosmism? I have 2778 02:53:26,800 --> 02:53:31,560 Speaker 1: no idea. Yeah, the cosmonaut people, yeah, yeah, yeah, they 2779 02:53:31,600 --> 02:53:34,520 Speaker 1: would bring back all the dead people. Oh no, I 2780 02:53:34,560 --> 02:53:36,240 Speaker 1: don't know about this. I only know a weird thing 2781 02:53:36,240 --> 02:53:40,959 Speaker 1: where there was like anarchist cosmonauts in like nineteen twenties Russia. Yeah. Yeah, 2782 02:53:41,000 --> 02:53:44,879 Speaker 1: so the their their whole thing was like, Okay, so 2783 02:53:45,560 --> 02:53:48,000 Speaker 1: they thought that the anarchists had like been defeated in 2784 02:53:48,040 --> 02:53:50,560 Speaker 1: the revolution because they were insufficiently committed to bringing the 2785 02:53:50,600 --> 02:53:52,879 Speaker 1: dead back to life, and that that that, you know, 2786 02:53:52,879 --> 02:53:55,360 Speaker 1: the whole thing was like they like they're there's some 2787 02:53:55,400 --> 02:53:57,760 Speaker 1: the people who were involved in the Soviet like rocket programs, 2788 02:53:57,800 --> 02:53:59,680 Speaker 1: and they're doing this because they want to colonize the 2789 02:53:59,680 --> 02:54:01,440 Speaker 1: Moon and Mars so they can fit all of the 2790 02:54:01,440 --> 02:54:04,080 Speaker 1: dead poleteria they're gonna bring back to life. Wait, are 2791 02:54:04,080 --> 02:54:07,640 Speaker 1: you telling the truth to me? This is true? This 2792 02:54:07,680 --> 02:54:13,879 Speaker 1: is this is I've been trying to fight for the 2793 02:54:13,920 --> 02:54:17,760 Speaker 1: Anarchist Necromancer League for so long, which our slogan is 2794 02:54:17,920 --> 02:54:20,480 Speaker 1: um raised the dead to fight like hell for the living. 2795 02:54:22,840 --> 02:54:28,680 Speaker 1: That's that's It's incredible. But yeah, no, like the Russian cosmism, 2796 02:54:28,680 --> 02:54:31,400 Speaker 1: it's a weird one cosmism. It's like a weird mix 2797 02:54:31,480 --> 02:54:35,480 Speaker 1: of like like natural philosophy quote unquote, which is just 2798 02:54:35,480 --> 02:54:37,600 Speaker 1: like different films or like folk magic or whatever, and 2799 02:54:37,640 --> 02:54:40,160 Speaker 1: like religion and spiritual stuff. But also it's like a 2800 02:54:40,200 --> 02:54:44,240 Speaker 1: predecessor to like the modern transhumanism. Um, it's an it's 2801 02:54:44,280 --> 02:54:48,119 Speaker 1: an interesting little collection of ideas that was popular at 2802 02:54:48,280 --> 02:54:51,119 Speaker 1: the very beginning of the twentieth century. It's it's part 2803 02:54:51,120 --> 02:54:53,800 Speaker 1: of my thesis that no one normal has ever been 2804 02:54:53,840 --> 02:54:56,760 Speaker 1: involved in the production of a rocket like I mean 2805 02:54:58,760 --> 02:55:01,000 Speaker 1: yeast like on the so made in and then there's 2806 02:55:01,000 --> 02:55:04,400 Speaker 1: just like the Nazis and it's like, oh, zero normal people. 2807 02:55:06,840 --> 02:55:09,600 Speaker 1: I have no counterargument there was that because there was 2808 02:55:09,640 --> 02:55:12,320 Speaker 1: the guy who did all the multi stage rocketry, the 2809 02:55:12,440 --> 02:55:15,560 Speaker 1: nihilist who killed the czar, who built the bomb that 2810 02:55:15,680 --> 02:55:19,200 Speaker 1: killed the Tzar. He like when I talked about this 2811 02:55:19,240 --> 02:55:22,240 Speaker 1: in my podcast, probably already listened to this. You have 2812 02:55:22,280 --> 02:55:25,280 Speaker 1: a podcast? WHOA, yeah, I really just I'm here. I'm 2813 02:55:25,280 --> 02:55:29,600 Speaker 1: gonna plug this every like five minutes. On this episode, um, 2814 02:55:30,800 --> 02:55:33,120 Speaker 1: you can learn about the bomb maker who killed the 2815 02:55:33,120 --> 02:55:36,280 Speaker 1: czar and his what he brought to the world in 2816 02:55:36,360 --> 02:55:43,440 Speaker 1: terms of rocketry and manned rocket travel. Anyway, please continue 2817 02:55:43,560 --> 02:55:46,920 Speaker 1: on what show Margaret? Well, okay, is this podcast that 2818 02:55:46,920 --> 02:55:49,120 Speaker 1: I'm recording on right now? When does it come out. 2819 02:55:49,360 --> 02:55:51,879 Speaker 1: When are you listening to it, dear readers. Okay, well, 2820 02:55:51,920 --> 02:55:54,960 Speaker 1: then next Monday you can listen to cool people who 2821 02:55:55,000 --> 02:55:59,520 Speaker 1: did cool stuff, which is my podcast. Yeah, I'm so 2822 02:55:59,520 --> 02:56:02,080 Speaker 1: good at my up. Anyway, my job is to interrupt 2823 02:56:02,120 --> 02:56:04,920 Speaker 1: you with please tell me more about the cosmos and 2824 02:56:04,959 --> 02:56:07,440 Speaker 1: how they relate to Japan. The Cols was actually nothing 2825 02:56:07,480 --> 02:56:14,360 Speaker 1: to do with this, unfortunately, but yeah, but lev uh 2826 02:56:14,840 --> 02:56:18,560 Speaker 1: lev Meshnikov like he also he like fights with Garibaldi 2827 02:56:18,600 --> 02:56:21,360 Speaker 1: to reunify Italy. He's just like all over the place. 2828 02:56:21,920 --> 02:56:25,440 Speaker 1: But he's an interesting guy because okay, so there's like 2829 02:56:25,480 --> 02:56:29,240 Speaker 1: a lot of foreigners who go to Japan, but he 2830 02:56:29,760 --> 02:56:34,680 Speaker 1: like makes Japanese friends and like learns Japanese before he 2831 02:56:34,720 --> 02:56:38,200 Speaker 1: goes there, which makes him like utterly different than like 2832 02:56:39,240 --> 02:56:41,200 Speaker 1: the people who are writing like Westerners who are writing 2833 02:56:41,240 --> 02:56:43,240 Speaker 1: but Japan in this period, who like don't speak very 2834 02:56:43,280 --> 02:56:47,400 Speaker 1: good Japanese and never leave their houses. So nothing has changed. 2835 02:56:48,200 --> 02:56:51,560 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, well like except weirdly this one guy is 2836 02:56:51,600 --> 02:56:54,039 Speaker 1: doing better. Oh no, I mean nothing has changed from 2837 02:56:54,080 --> 02:56:58,600 Speaker 1: now no where. No Westerners actually they just pretend to 2838 02:56:58,640 --> 02:57:01,720 Speaker 1: care about Japan. Okay, yeah, it's a it's it's time. 2839 02:57:02,160 --> 02:57:04,119 Speaker 1: There's actually That's one of the brunning themes of these 2840 02:57:04,120 --> 02:57:07,959 Speaker 1: two episodes is like there's a lot of stuff about this, 2841 02:57:08,200 --> 02:57:12,440 Speaker 1: about anarchism and about Japan just like don't change. But 2842 02:57:12,840 --> 02:57:15,400 Speaker 1: you know, so one of the things that winds up 2843 02:57:15,400 --> 02:57:17,600 Speaker 1: doing is he winds up spending two years teaching at 2844 02:57:17,600 --> 02:57:20,480 Speaker 1: this thing called the Tokyo School of Foreign Languages. And 2845 02:57:20,560 --> 02:57:22,520 Speaker 1: this this is a bunch of major impacts, one of 2846 02:57:22,560 --> 02:57:27,520 Speaker 1: which is on Masnikov himself, who he becomes heavily influenced 2847 02:57:27,560 --> 02:57:31,119 Speaker 1: by by the Major Restoration, which he thinks of as 2848 02:57:31,160 --> 02:57:34,120 Speaker 1: like this like but he looks at it, this is 2849 02:57:34,160 --> 02:57:36,359 Speaker 1: like as a revolution, like this is an anti feudal revolution. 2850 02:57:36,480 --> 02:57:40,200 Speaker 1: This is the most successful social revolution of the century. 2851 02:57:40,240 --> 02:57:42,280 Speaker 1: It's like he thinks that it's like destroyed the sort 2852 02:57:42,280 --> 02:57:46,119 Speaker 1: of stratified class system and creates this like possibility of 2853 02:57:46,160 --> 02:57:50,920 Speaker 1: like mass social mobility for commoners. And Okay, so this 2854 02:57:51,000 --> 02:57:54,800 Speaker 1: is like not the best interpretation of what's going on 2855 02:57:55,640 --> 02:57:58,000 Speaker 1: with with the Major Restoration. Where I mean, so the 2856 02:57:58,040 --> 02:58:02,760 Speaker 1: Major Restoration sort of the field system in Japan, it 2857 02:58:02,760 --> 02:58:04,720 Speaker 1: does a lot of other bad things. What is it? 2858 02:58:05,040 --> 02:58:07,760 Speaker 1: Like I don't know that much about this, yea, So 2859 02:58:07,800 --> 02:58:10,600 Speaker 1: maybe the audience doesn't either okay, so the major restoration 2860 02:58:10,959 --> 02:58:13,160 Speaker 1: is a thing that happens where so so Japan has 2861 02:58:13,160 --> 02:58:15,720 Speaker 1: been ruled by a shogun for like a long time, 2862 02:58:16,440 --> 02:58:19,400 Speaker 1: and the shogun runs the Fueld system. It's very elaborate. 2863 02:58:19,440 --> 02:58:22,920 Speaker 1: Everyone has at least sort of minute hard prodcasts. But 2864 02:58:22,959 --> 02:58:30,800 Speaker 1: eventually there's this kind of um like that, there's there's 2865 02:58:30,840 --> 02:58:36,680 Speaker 1: this sort of it's complicated. It's this kind of nationalist 2866 02:58:36,720 --> 02:58:39,800 Speaker 1: movements by a bunch of um like a bunch of 2867 02:58:39,800 --> 02:58:42,960 Speaker 1: the samurai clans. Who this is? This is happening in 2868 02:58:42,959 --> 02:58:47,120 Speaker 1: the six season, they mobilized to overthrow like the shogunate 2869 02:58:47,200 --> 02:58:49,720 Speaker 1: and basically like restore the emperor to power. The emperor 2870 02:58:49,720 --> 02:58:52,520 Speaker 1: has been like a puppet head like figurehead guy for 2871 02:58:52,520 --> 02:58:55,280 Speaker 1: like two years and they bring it back to power. 2872 02:58:56,640 --> 02:58:58,320 Speaker 1: Because I'm a hack of a fraud and a fraud. 2873 02:58:58,320 --> 02:59:00,760 Speaker 1: I'm forgetting their exact slogan. It's some it's something like 2874 02:59:03,080 --> 02:59:05,959 Speaker 1: it's Revere the Emperor, and I can't remember what the 2875 02:59:05,959 --> 02:59:08,959 Speaker 1: other part of the slogan is. It's very similar to 2876 02:59:09,000 --> 02:59:10,840 Speaker 1: that to the Box rebellions. Looking it's it's this sort 2877 02:59:10,840 --> 02:59:12,880 Speaker 1: of I mean, there's a lot of things going on here. 2878 02:59:12,920 --> 02:59:15,440 Speaker 1: It's kind of a reaction to so in the in 2879 02:59:15,520 --> 02:59:19,400 Speaker 1: the sixties, like Japan is sort of forcibly opened to 2880 02:59:19,680 --> 02:59:23,160 Speaker 1: the world by like Comma our Paris showing up with 2881 02:59:23,160 --> 02:59:27,839 Speaker 1: a bunch of like the largest gunboats anyone has ever seen. Um. 2882 02:59:27,879 --> 02:59:30,000 Speaker 1: And this like this forces Japan to sort of like 2883 02:59:30,040 --> 02:59:34,640 Speaker 1: abandon its isolation dispositions. And yeah, and you know, and 2884 02:59:34,720 --> 02:59:36,959 Speaker 1: you get this sort of classic intellectuals you're looking at 2885 02:59:37,000 --> 02:59:39,400 Speaker 1: this and they're going like, Okay, if we don't do something, 2886 02:59:39,720 --> 02:59:43,080 Speaker 1: like we're gonna get colonized. And so they do. And 2887 02:59:43,080 --> 02:59:44,280 Speaker 1: the thing that they do is that they do this 2888 02:59:44,360 --> 02:59:48,000 Speaker 1: revolution and they overthrow um, they overthrow the shogunate. There's 2889 02:59:48,000 --> 02:59:50,280 Speaker 1: all this like there's there's like a trillion anime set 2890 02:59:50,280 --> 02:59:52,480 Speaker 1: in this period because there's like that, There's there's like 2891 02:59:52,480 --> 02:59:55,040 Speaker 1: like there there are there are squads of samurai swordsmen 2892 02:59:55,080 --> 02:59:57,360 Speaker 1: like running around like stabbing each other in Tokyo with 2893 02:59:57,400 --> 03:00:00,720 Speaker 1: like kyoto and like it's it's wild, it is it 2894 03:00:00,840 --> 03:00:03,760 Speaker 1: is a it is a time and and this sort 2895 03:00:03,760 --> 03:00:08,000 Speaker 1: of this is what sort of consolidates the modern Japanese 2896 03:00:08,080 --> 03:00:11,560 Speaker 1: nation state. Um. You know, I've talked about this in 2897 03:00:11,600 --> 03:00:13,720 Speaker 1: my Kishi episodes, but like it sets off this wave 2898 03:00:13,760 --> 03:00:18,720 Speaker 1: of colonialism. They like they conquer Okaido, they conquer the islands, 2899 03:00:18,800 --> 03:00:23,959 Speaker 1: they do all this horrible colonialism stuff. But there's there's 2900 03:00:23,760 --> 03:00:27,120 Speaker 1: it's really unclear what the revolution is actually going to 2901 03:00:27,200 --> 03:00:29,520 Speaker 1: mean because like there has been a revolution, right, like 2902 03:00:29,520 --> 03:00:32,320 Speaker 1: the sort of like feutal like class system has been 2903 03:00:32,320 --> 03:00:34,640 Speaker 1: swept away. There's all of this sort of there's all 2904 03:00:34,680 --> 03:00:37,160 Speaker 1: this this energy and the masses. There's like one of 2905 03:00:37,200 --> 03:00:40,800 Speaker 1: one of the things that Meshakov finds is like he 2906 03:00:40,920 --> 03:00:44,200 Speaker 1: so he gets to Japan in like the in the 2907 03:00:44,280 --> 03:00:49,119 Speaker 1: eighteenth seventies um, and he's seeing like the first size 2908 03:00:49,160 --> 03:00:54,280 Speaker 1: of discontentment with with the sort of the major restoration um, 2909 03:00:54,320 --> 03:00:58,240 Speaker 1: which is the restoration of the emperor um. Because there's 2910 03:00:58,240 --> 03:01:00,000 Speaker 1: a lot of people who look at this and they're like, oh, hey, 2911 03:01:00,000 --> 03:01:02,240 Speaker 1: we're gonna we finally like defeated the sort of olig 2912 03:01:02,280 --> 03:01:04,800 Speaker 1: Art class that like rules all of us. And then 2913 03:01:05,200 --> 03:01:07,120 Speaker 1: there's all do olig Art class and they're like wait, 2914 03:01:07,280 --> 03:01:09,320 Speaker 1: hold on. And so there's there's like there's a series 2915 03:01:09,360 --> 03:01:12,200 Speaker 1: of like ex samurai rebellions. There's this whole sort of 2916 03:01:12,240 --> 03:01:15,720 Speaker 1: like like he he like Mashakov literally like gets there 2917 03:01:15,720 --> 03:01:17,959 Speaker 1: in the middle of an uprising, and he's just like 2918 03:01:17,959 --> 03:01:19,840 Speaker 1: in this rereaes he has nobody what's going on because 2919 03:01:19,920 --> 03:01:21,800 Speaker 1: the guy he'd been talking to winds up being in 2920 03:01:21,840 --> 03:01:25,000 Speaker 1: the uprising, and you know, so he gets there and 2921 03:01:25,080 --> 03:01:27,800 Speaker 1: but what what what he sees also is he sees upheople. 2922 03:01:28,040 --> 03:01:30,880 Speaker 1: But he sees that this enormous network of like cooperative movements. 2923 03:01:31,400 --> 03:01:33,480 Speaker 1: I mean, he's a bunch of mutual aid groups. He 2924 03:01:33,600 --> 03:01:36,879 Speaker 1: sees like villages who are like pooling all of the 2925 03:01:36,959 --> 03:01:39,800 Speaker 1: resources they can send kids to like school in the cities. 2926 03:01:39,920 --> 03:01:43,200 Speaker 1: He sees like he sees the government failing to provide 2927 03:01:43,200 --> 03:01:44,960 Speaker 1: services for people because there's an uprising going on, and 2928 03:01:45,000 --> 03:01:47,240 Speaker 1: also the governments and so people are sort of people 2929 03:01:47,360 --> 03:01:50,920 Speaker 1: taking care of each other. And this has an enormous 2930 03:01:50,959 --> 03:01:55,200 Speaker 1: influence on him. Um and he starts to you know, 2931 03:01:55,280 --> 03:01:57,320 Speaker 1: like the way he thinks about anarchism changes, and he sees, 2932 03:01:57,480 --> 03:01:59,920 Speaker 1: like he starts to think about sort of like anarchism 2933 03:02:00,040 --> 03:02:04,160 Speaker 1: is cooperation, Like mutual cooperation between people who like mutual 2934 03:02:04,200 --> 03:02:09,720 Speaker 1: aid enters the sort of lexicon. And Okay, so there's 2935 03:02:09,720 --> 03:02:15,160 Speaker 1: a there's a modern historian named show Kota She who 2936 03:02:15,160 --> 03:02:19,440 Speaker 1: writes this book called Anarchist madernity, anarchist magernity cooperatism. Wait, 2937 03:02:19,480 --> 03:02:24,720 Speaker 1: hold on, yeah, anarchist magernity cooperatism and Japanese Russian intellectual 2938 03:02:24,760 --> 03:02:29,920 Speaker 1: relationship modern Japan. And he makes the argument basics, yeah, 2939 03:02:30,360 --> 03:02:33,320 Speaker 1: there's there's two there there there, it's a it's a 2940 03:02:33,320 --> 03:02:35,960 Speaker 1: better title than I'm reading it, because there's there's two. 2941 03:02:36,000 --> 03:02:39,080 Speaker 1: There's like a heading and like a subheading straight because 2942 03:02:39,080 --> 03:02:43,280 Speaker 1: I'm flound But she's making the argument that this this 2943 03:02:43,360 --> 03:02:45,119 Speaker 1: is like this is actually like something that's very important 2944 03:02:45,160 --> 03:02:48,959 Speaker 1: to development of Marco communism because this guy he knows everyone, 2945 03:02:49,040 --> 03:02:52,280 Speaker 1: like did the anarchist geographer, like at least Rick LuSE. 2946 03:02:52,879 --> 03:02:56,080 Speaker 1: I can't pronounce his name. I think it's lu Yeah, 2947 03:02:56,120 --> 03:02:58,400 Speaker 1: I think so, but I can't not with a gun 2948 03:02:58,440 --> 03:03:01,160 Speaker 1: to my head, I'm not sure. Yeah. Yeah, Like their 2949 03:03:01,240 --> 03:03:03,920 Speaker 1: roommates like they're like they're like they lived together for 2950 03:03:03,959 --> 03:03:05,879 Speaker 1: like a while, and like he he he writes the 2951 03:03:05,959 --> 03:03:09,680 Speaker 1: Japan entry and like the encyclopedia, he's friends with Kropotkin. 2952 03:03:10,680 --> 03:03:13,880 Speaker 1: And after after his his sort of like thoughts starts 2953 03:03:13,879 --> 03:03:15,960 Speaker 1: to change about mutual aid, you start to see a 2954 03:03:15,959 --> 03:03:18,440 Speaker 1: lot of the same stuff, like you know, like this 2955 03:03:18,520 --> 03:03:20,920 Speaker 1: is like he's he's there before Karpokin writes mutual Aid, 2956 03:03:21,240 --> 03:03:22,480 Speaker 1: and then you see you see all the sort of 2957 03:03:22,520 --> 03:03:24,720 Speaker 1: mutual aid stuff popping up Kropotkin, And you know, I 2958 03:03:25,080 --> 03:03:27,240 Speaker 1: don't know how seriously to take the argument that like 2959 03:03:28,320 --> 03:03:30,879 Speaker 1: you're sort of seeing like that that a lot of 2960 03:03:30,920 --> 03:03:32,959 Speaker 1: this theory is sort of a rebound of reflection of 2961 03:03:32,959 --> 03:03:36,160 Speaker 1: what they were seeing in Japanese society. But it's interesting, 2962 03:03:36,160 --> 03:03:39,320 Speaker 1: and I think I should mention it because I don't know, 2963 03:03:39,760 --> 03:03:43,600 Speaker 1: like there's there's this whole sort of intellectual sphere of 2964 03:03:43,680 --> 03:03:46,360 Speaker 1: people who were like associated with anarchistic the ever thing 2965 03:03:46,360 --> 03:03:49,480 Speaker 1: that happens in this period is that like, um, so 2966 03:03:49,600 --> 03:03:52,840 Speaker 1: there's a bunch of like Mashnikov like has a bunch 2967 03:03:52,840 --> 03:03:55,040 Speaker 1: of friends in Russia who all got arrested because they 2968 03:03:55,080 --> 03:03:59,760 Speaker 1: were in like terrorist groups, and he's able to get 2969 03:03:59,800 --> 03:04:02,920 Speaker 1: like a whole bunch of these people too, Like he's 2970 03:04:02,959 --> 03:04:06,520 Speaker 1: able to get them like exiled, and their exile is 2971 03:04:06,560 --> 03:04:08,920 Speaker 1: they go to Japan, they teach with him, and so 2972 03:04:08,959 --> 03:04:13,120 Speaker 1: suddenly there's like there's like a bunch of people who 2973 03:04:13,120 --> 03:04:15,800 Speaker 1: are now like these people, these populists are like writing 2974 03:04:15,959 --> 03:04:18,160 Speaker 1: stories about like the stuff they were doing, and like 2975 03:04:18,160 --> 03:04:20,000 Speaker 1: all the people who are still fighting in Russia. So 2976 03:04:20,040 --> 03:04:23,080 Speaker 1: there's suddenly there's all these people who are like reading 2977 03:04:23,120 --> 03:04:27,800 Speaker 1: about the Russian populists uh in Japan and and you know, 2978 03:04:28,160 --> 03:04:30,800 Speaker 1: and this is there's there's this kind of like anarchist 2979 03:04:30,840 --> 03:04:34,640 Speaker 1: cultural sphere that exists in Japan, like before there's anarchists, 2980 03:04:35,640 --> 03:04:40,160 Speaker 1: um like EXAs yeah, yeah for Japan as anarchist, they'll 2981 03:04:40,160 --> 03:04:43,400 Speaker 1: be like one like yeah, there's like a couple of 2982 03:04:43,480 --> 03:04:47,920 Speaker 1: Russian anarchists and like yeah, but like Mashikov leaves at 2983 03:04:47,920 --> 03:04:50,400 Speaker 1: one of the other big thing with this is Tolstoy, 2984 03:04:50,680 --> 03:04:55,480 Speaker 1: who is like Tolstoy in like nineties like early nights, 2985 03:04:55,480 --> 03:04:57,879 Speaker 1: He's like he's the like he I think he's like 2986 03:04:57,920 --> 03:05:02,920 Speaker 1: the most translated author like on Earth in Japan. And 2987 03:05:03,120 --> 03:05:05,920 Speaker 1: it's they're not just reading his literary work, they're reading 2988 03:05:06,000 --> 03:05:08,480 Speaker 1: his like theology is political work, which is important because 2989 03:05:08,480 --> 03:05:12,200 Speaker 1: Tolstoy is like a Christian and reco pacifist right, and 2990 03:05:12,200 --> 03:05:16,160 Speaker 1: and this influences this. There's this kind of like there's 2991 03:05:16,200 --> 03:05:18,000 Speaker 1: there's a lot of sort of like left wing anti 2992 03:05:18,040 --> 03:05:21,200 Speaker 1: imperial strains of Christianity that pop up in Japan. And 2993 03:05:21,280 --> 03:05:23,000 Speaker 1: this is one of the reasons for US because everyone's 2994 03:05:23,000 --> 03:05:26,720 Speaker 1: reading Tolstoy, and so you get the seeds of this 2995 03:05:26,800 --> 03:05:32,800 Speaker 1: anarchist movements that eventually sprout into a man named god. 2996 03:05:33,040 --> 03:05:38,840 Speaker 1: This guy's name is actually hard Cotu ku SHOOSI. I'm 2997 03:05:38,840 --> 03:05:40,879 Speaker 1: butchering the last part of it. I'm sorry. My Japanese 2998 03:05:40,920 --> 03:05:43,440 Speaker 1: does not extend to this many years and eyes in 2999 03:05:43,480 --> 03:05:50,920 Speaker 1: a row. But kotakudak he's an interesting god because so 3000 03:05:51,000 --> 03:05:54,240 Speaker 1: he hasn't so he has like a whole career before 3001 03:05:54,240 --> 03:05:55,880 Speaker 1: it becomes an anarchist. He's he's like he's a very 3002 03:05:55,920 --> 03:05:59,120 Speaker 1: prep mint journalist, intellectual, Like he writes a newspaper. It's 3003 03:05:59,200 --> 03:06:02,199 Speaker 1: very famous. Everyone reads it, and he's the heir apparent 3004 03:06:02,280 --> 03:06:05,199 Speaker 1: to this other like very famous sort of liberal journalist 3005 03:06:05,320 --> 03:06:09,360 Speaker 1: who again, because Lev Meshnikov knows literally everyone was like 3006 03:06:09,400 --> 03:06:14,080 Speaker 1: a friend of Left Meshnikov. I don't. He knows every 3007 03:06:14,080 --> 03:06:18,600 Speaker 1: single person on earth. It's incredible, you know that rules 3008 03:06:18,720 --> 03:06:21,879 Speaker 1: you know, unless he ever turned if you ever snitched 3009 03:06:21,879 --> 03:06:27,320 Speaker 1: to be terrible apparently never did so yeah, yeah, I 3010 03:06:27,320 --> 03:06:30,600 Speaker 1: mean it's still around, so I mean he still could snitch. 3011 03:06:31,080 --> 03:06:33,360 Speaker 1: He's still around. The last the chance, Oh, I guess 3012 03:06:33,360 --> 03:06:37,200 Speaker 1: everyone he was snitched on his dead so um makes 3013 03:06:37,200 --> 03:06:41,680 Speaker 1: it harder the epic Skipilaria area. Yeah. So Kodaku is 3014 03:06:41,760 --> 03:06:44,640 Speaker 1: like he's kind of like a standard liberal, but he 3015 03:06:44,680 --> 03:06:47,439 Speaker 1: gets involved with with the anti war movements. Um, specifically 3016 03:06:47,440 --> 03:06:50,760 Speaker 1: this this is the the anti uh well is it 3017 03:06:50,840 --> 03:06:52,840 Speaker 1: does anti a lot of wars because the jet Japan 3018 03:06:52,879 --> 03:06:54,840 Speaker 1: is fighting an enormous series of wars and like the 3019 03:06:54,879 --> 03:06:57,560 Speaker 1: early nine hundreds, Um, yeah, they kicked Russia's as at 3020 03:06:57,600 --> 03:07:03,480 Speaker 1: that point. Yeah, yeah, fight uh Japan, They fight Japans. Sorry, 3021 03:07:03,480 --> 03:07:06,480 Speaker 1: they fight China. Yeah, and do you do you know 3022 03:07:06,560 --> 03:07:10,560 Speaker 1: who else is fighting China? I don't know. I'm afraid 3023 03:07:10,600 --> 03:07:14,640 Speaker 1: to know. The products and service assist the show. Are 3024 03:07:14,640 --> 03:07:21,439 Speaker 1: we supported by American nationalism? Apparently? Yes? Question mark, And 3025 03:07:21,480 --> 03:07:27,080 Speaker 1: we're back with the first rush with the first actual 3026 03:07:27,160 --> 03:07:32,120 Speaker 1: Japanese anarchist. So in the neteen hundred Cutko writes this 3027 03:07:32,160 --> 03:07:35,840 Speaker 1: book called Imperialism Monster of the twentieth Century, which is 3028 03:07:35,840 --> 03:07:41,440 Speaker 1: like good yeah, yeah, and this certificate for a number 3029 03:07:41,440 --> 03:07:42,959 Speaker 1: of reasons, one of which is it like this is 3030 03:07:43,000 --> 03:07:46,760 Speaker 1: one of the first major like books about imperialism. Like 3031 03:07:47,440 --> 03:07:50,000 Speaker 1: there there are some other Western writers who stuff like 3032 03:07:50,000 --> 03:07:52,040 Speaker 1: predates this, but like this is not hter. This is 3033 03:07:52,080 --> 03:07:55,520 Speaker 1: before Lenin has written about imperialism. This is before like Hobson, 3034 03:07:55,600 --> 03:07:58,720 Speaker 1: this is before Luxembourg, and I'm just gonna read it 3035 03:07:58,800 --> 03:08:01,879 Speaker 1: a little bit from it because it rules. So this 3036 03:08:02,040 --> 03:08:04,760 Speaker 1: is from the first section. It's called imperialism a wildfire 3037 03:08:04,840 --> 03:08:09,720 Speaker 1: in an open field. Imperialism spreads like a wildfire in 3038 03:08:09,720 --> 03:08:13,400 Speaker 1: an open field. All nations bow down to worship this 3039 03:08:13,480 --> 03:08:16,240 Speaker 1: new god, sing hymns to praise it, and have created 3040 03:08:16,280 --> 03:08:19,480 Speaker 1: a cult to pay to pay it adoration. Look at 3041 03:08:19,520 --> 03:08:23,240 Speaker 1: the world that surrounds us. In England's both governments and 3042 03:08:23,320 --> 03:08:26,600 Speaker 1: citizens have become fervent acolytes of imperialism. In Germany, the 3043 03:08:26,600 --> 03:08:29,520 Speaker 1: war loving emperor never loses a chance to extol its virtues. 3044 03:08:29,879 --> 03:08:32,200 Speaker 1: As for Russia, the regime has long practiced to policy 3045 03:08:32,240 --> 03:08:35,560 Speaker 1: of imperialism. France, Austria, and Italy are all delighted to 3046 03:08:35,640 --> 03:08:37,960 Speaker 1: join the fray. Even a young country like the United 3047 03:08:38,000 --> 03:08:40,680 Speaker 1: States has recently shown its eagerness to master this new skill. 3048 03:08:41,160 --> 03:08:44,640 Speaker 1: And finally, this trend has reached Japan. Ever since our 3049 03:08:44,640 --> 03:08:47,600 Speaker 1: great victory in the Cio Japanese War, Japanese of all 3050 03:08:47,680 --> 03:08:50,279 Speaker 1: classes burned with fervor to join the race for an empire. 3051 03:08:50,400 --> 03:08:55,320 Speaker 1: Like a wild horse freed from its harness. So you know, 3052 03:08:55,400 --> 03:08:57,480 Speaker 1: the one thing that he got incorrect, as as I 3053 03:08:57,560 --> 03:08:59,720 Speaker 1: understand by spending a lot of time on Twitter, is 3054 03:08:59,760 --> 03:09:02,760 Speaker 1: that actually only the United States is imperialist and any 3055 03:09:02,840 --> 03:09:05,720 Speaker 1: actions especially by Russia. I was very confused that he 3056 03:09:05,720 --> 03:09:08,440 Speaker 1: included Russia as the I can't finish the sentence of 3057 03:09:08,480 --> 03:09:13,880 Speaker 1: the straight face, Um what Russia? Also, how could it 3058 03:09:13,879 --> 03:09:17,240 Speaker 1: be imperialism if Lenin hadn't yet defined the term for us? 3059 03:09:17,280 --> 03:09:19,480 Speaker 1: This is okay, this is the whole thing. Okay. So 3060 03:09:19,480 --> 03:09:22,120 Speaker 1: so Kutko gets like a lot of ship from this 3061 03:09:22,160 --> 03:09:24,320 Speaker 1: book because for like from later on, having his leftis 3062 03:09:24,320 --> 03:09:26,680 Speaker 1: because like he's insufficiently materialist. It's like, yeah, he is 3063 03:09:26,720 --> 03:09:28,480 Speaker 1: mostly just talking, like the books, mostly about like how 3064 03:09:28,520 --> 03:09:31,960 Speaker 1: patriotism and nationalism like create this stuff. It doesn't look 3065 03:09:31,959 --> 03:09:36,080 Speaker 1: at economics much. But like, okay, there's a whole problem here, 3066 03:09:36,080 --> 03:09:38,119 Speaker 1: which is that if you try to apply Lenin's definition 3067 03:09:38,160 --> 03:09:41,800 Speaker 1: of imperialism to Japan, it doesn't work because like, like 3068 03:09:41,840 --> 03:09:44,160 Speaker 1: what would Japan is invading China? They have like I 3069 03:09:44,200 --> 03:09:47,560 Speaker 1: think it's like fifty total factories. Yeah, like that the 3070 03:09:48,160 --> 03:09:53,400 Speaker 1: everything is completely backwards, Like it's like yeah, and like 3071 03:09:53,480 --> 03:09:56,440 Speaker 1: you know, it's like like like Lennon's imperialism is supposed 3072 03:09:56,440 --> 03:09:58,600 Speaker 1: to be like the highest stage of capitalism, but then 3073 03:09:58,800 --> 03:10:02,199 Speaker 1: you go to Japan, Japan's like barely started the position 3074 03:10:02,280 --> 03:10:05,600 Speaker 1: to capitalism, like if Lettin's imperialism is supposed to be 3075 03:10:05,600 --> 03:10:08,040 Speaker 1: about like debt exports, right, but Japan is just conquering 3076 03:10:08,040 --> 03:10:11,880 Speaker 1: countries while they're just literally like borrowing massively from whether 3077 03:10:11,879 --> 03:10:14,800 Speaker 1: states of funder industrialzations. Everything does nothing, None of it works, 3078 03:10:15,520 --> 03:10:18,280 Speaker 1: and Kodaku gets like again he has he has like 3079 03:10:18,320 --> 03:10:19,760 Speaker 1: a lot of ship for this, but it's like no, 3080 03:10:19,920 --> 03:10:24,280 Speaker 1: she's right, like letting is letting is wrong. Lettings analysis, 3081 03:10:24,280 --> 03:10:26,160 Speaker 1: if you try to apply in Japan, does not work, 3082 03:10:26,680 --> 03:10:34,560 Speaker 1: and Kodas does so yeah, and you know, Kudako, I 3083 03:10:34,560 --> 03:10:38,120 Speaker 1: think like he's keyed into things that the Marxists aren't, 3084 03:10:39,120 --> 03:10:42,680 Speaker 1: but like specifically about like about the power of nationalism, 3085 03:10:42,760 --> 03:10:45,280 Speaker 1: because you know, I mean like obviously if you if 3086 03:10:45,320 --> 03:10:47,080 Speaker 1: you go a bit later, it's like, well, all of 3087 03:10:47,080 --> 03:10:49,600 Speaker 1: these people who are like, oh, imperialism is the highest 3088 03:10:49,640 --> 03:10:51,600 Speaker 1: age of capitalism, and then all of their parties vote 3089 03:10:51,640 --> 03:10:53,160 Speaker 1: to go to war with each other in War one, 3090 03:10:54,240 --> 03:10:57,120 Speaker 1: like you know, okay, Cutico I think like gets this 3091 03:10:57,200 --> 03:11:00,560 Speaker 1: because his relationship with socialists an NTI imperialism are like 3092 03:11:00,680 --> 03:11:03,080 Speaker 1: backward from the Marxist right where the Marxists arrived at 3093 03:11:03,120 --> 03:11:07,880 Speaker 1: engine imperialism, like from their Marxism. But Kutko like becomes 3094 03:11:07,879 --> 03:11:09,440 Speaker 1: a socialist because he sees it as a way to 3095 03:11:09,480 --> 03:11:12,080 Speaker 1: stop wars. Like that's like his big thing is he's 3096 03:11:12,120 --> 03:11:13,760 Speaker 1: in the antiwar move when he want he's wars to stop. 3097 03:11:14,959 --> 03:11:17,440 Speaker 1: And that's the right direction to do. Ship. You should 3098 03:11:17,480 --> 03:11:21,920 Speaker 1: do ship because like you don't pick the label because 3099 03:11:21,959 --> 03:11:24,560 Speaker 1: what's cool. You pick You figure out what you believe, 3100 03:11:24,640 --> 03:11:26,560 Speaker 1: and then you pick the label that fits what you believe, 3101 03:11:26,600 --> 03:11:28,880 Speaker 1: and so of the other way around. You know, yeah, 3102 03:11:29,080 --> 03:11:31,000 Speaker 1: and and you know it means that he's less sort 3103 03:11:31,040 --> 03:11:37,760 Speaker 1: of like he's less dogmatic than like his successors, because 3104 03:11:38,840 --> 03:11:42,000 Speaker 1: you know, I mean because because he's he's working off 3105 03:11:42,000 --> 03:11:44,720 Speaker 1: of his actual principles versus sort of like this like 3106 03:11:44,760 --> 03:11:47,160 Speaker 1: dictation stuff, and I mean he's he's he in the 3107 03:11:47,280 --> 03:11:49,160 Speaker 1: you know, three, he publishes the Ess of Socialism, which 3108 03:11:49,160 --> 03:11:52,320 Speaker 1: is like this is like the first like socialist like 3109 03:11:52,680 --> 03:11:54,680 Speaker 1: book written by Japanese person. It's like one of the 3110 03:11:54,720 --> 03:11:56,119 Speaker 1: I think there's maybe like one or two other ones 3111 03:11:56,160 --> 03:11:57,520 Speaker 1: that are before this is this is like the first 3112 03:11:57,560 --> 03:12:01,039 Speaker 1: big one and he he he's also like he's involved 3113 03:12:01,040 --> 03:12:04,400 Speaker 1: in founding the Japanese Socialist Party and then he gets 3114 03:12:04,400 --> 03:12:08,600 Speaker 1: like arrested and sent to the US and something happens 3115 03:12:08,600 --> 03:12:10,400 Speaker 1: when he's into you. I don't know, there's I've seen 3116 03:12:10,440 --> 03:12:12,880 Speaker 1: like sis conflicting accounts, like I've seen accounts to say 3117 03:12:12,920 --> 03:12:15,480 Speaker 1: he joins he joins the i w W. I I 3118 03:12:15,560 --> 03:12:17,280 Speaker 1: don't know. I've seen other people said he lived, he 3119 03:12:17,320 --> 03:12:19,600 Speaker 1: lived in a commune, like he definitely read gropocket, he 3120 03:12:19,680 --> 03:12:22,879 Speaker 1: becomes an anarchist, let's deciety, he did all of these things. Yeah, 3121 03:12:23,080 --> 03:12:25,440 Speaker 1: lived in a commune and tried to organize the communy 3122 03:12:25,480 --> 03:12:28,720 Speaker 1: with the i w W. But you know, I mean 3123 03:12:28,760 --> 03:12:31,640 Speaker 1: he this guy is enormously influential in history of Japanese left. 3124 03:12:31,640 --> 03:12:33,520 Speaker 1: Like he's the guy with when he comes back and 3125 03:12:33,520 --> 03:12:35,360 Speaker 1: act you know six, He's the guy who introduced the 3126 03:12:35,360 --> 03:12:39,040 Speaker 1: concept of the general strike Japan. Like he's the first 3127 03:12:39,080 --> 03:12:41,680 Speaker 1: guy to write about it. He's very cool. He he 3128 03:12:41,800 --> 03:12:44,600 Speaker 1: also like, yeah, you know, he starts pushing this and 3129 03:12:44,600 --> 03:12:47,080 Speaker 1: started this. He starts pushing anarchism in direct action as 3130 03:12:47,600 --> 03:12:49,840 Speaker 1: like instead of like doing proliamentary stuff, and he translates 3131 03:12:49,920 --> 03:12:53,240 Speaker 1: like Corpocket's work in the Japanese. He translates the like 3132 03:12:53,360 --> 03:12:56,000 Speaker 1: the comedy's manifesto. He's his labor organizing. He's sort of 3133 03:12:56,040 --> 03:12:59,080 Speaker 1: like all over the place, and you know, like labor 3134 03:12:59,360 --> 03:13:01,440 Speaker 1: and the ant one movement are like two of the 3135 03:13:01,959 --> 03:13:05,000 Speaker 1: big currents are proucing anarchists. But the the other like 3136 03:13:05,120 --> 03:13:10,760 Speaker 1: big current that's making anarchists this period is feminism. Because okay, 3137 03:13:10,800 --> 03:13:14,439 Speaker 1: so I stop me if this isn't any way surprising, 3138 03:13:14,480 --> 03:13:16,720 Speaker 1: but the late eighteen hunters and early neteen hunters are 3139 03:13:16,760 --> 03:13:21,440 Speaker 1: not a time to be a woman in Japan. Really. Yeah, 3140 03:13:21,640 --> 03:13:24,360 Speaker 1: it's not a good time like anywhere, but it's not 3141 03:13:24,360 --> 03:13:27,480 Speaker 1: not even now. It's not the best. Yeah, I mean 3142 03:13:27,520 --> 03:13:30,480 Speaker 1: I will be improved. I will say it's it's it's 3143 03:13:30,520 --> 03:13:36,760 Speaker 1: better than this. This is like sure, like the major 3144 03:13:36,800 --> 03:13:38,680 Speaker 1: regime is sort of like consultating self is as just 3145 03:13:38,760 --> 03:13:43,400 Speaker 1: consultating itself. It gets like progressively more like patriarchal, misogynist. 3146 03:13:44,040 --> 03:13:46,520 Speaker 1: I'm gonna I'm gonna read from the book Reflections on 3147 03:13:46,560 --> 03:13:48,440 Speaker 1: the Way to the Gallows, which is this It's a 3148 03:13:48,440 --> 03:13:51,680 Speaker 1: great book. It's it's an awesome collection of yeah, well 3149 03:13:51,680 --> 03:13:58,000 Speaker 1: so that that's uh God, I forget one of the 3150 03:13:58,040 --> 03:14:00,879 Speaker 1: Japanese anarchists whose about to die, Like that's the title 3151 03:14:00,920 --> 03:14:04,760 Speaker 1: of like a piece that she wrote. Um, and they 3152 03:14:05,280 --> 03:14:08,400 Speaker 1: this book is like a collection of of Japanese feminist writings, 3153 03:14:08,400 --> 03:14:10,320 Speaker 1: mostly from people who get killed by the state, because 3154 03:14:10,360 --> 03:14:12,840 Speaker 1: that's what happens when your feminist Japan in this period. Um. 3155 03:14:13,560 --> 03:14:16,800 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it's bad. Okay, So I'm gonna read a 3156 03:14:16,840 --> 03:14:19,880 Speaker 1: quote from this. In eight two, the government forbid women 3157 03:14:19,920 --> 03:14:23,240 Speaker 1: to make political speeches, and in eighteen ninety made it 3158 03:14:23,240 --> 03:14:27,360 Speaker 1: illegal for women to participate in political activities whatsoever. Women 3159 03:14:27,400 --> 03:14:30,720 Speaker 1: were forbidden to even listen to political speeches. The Police 3160 03:14:30,720 --> 03:14:35,320 Speaker 1: Security Regulations of reinforced these strictures. Article five of the 3161 03:14:35,360 --> 03:14:41,959 Speaker 1: regulations prohibited women from forming any political organization whatsoever. Jesus. Yeah, 3162 03:14:41,959 --> 03:14:43,840 Speaker 1: it's like that's like a level of restriction that like 3163 03:14:45,480 --> 03:14:49,760 Speaker 1: I'm not sure I've ever seen like that explicit level 3164 03:14:49,879 --> 03:14:54,240 Speaker 1: of no, you can't do this. Yeah, I feel like 3165 03:14:54,240 --> 03:14:56,720 Speaker 1: it's usually implicit in a lot of Western rays. And 3166 03:14:56,720 --> 03:14:59,080 Speaker 1: then also like one of the things that really strikes 3167 03:14:59,360 --> 03:15:00,840 Speaker 1: sticks out to my about that is that I'm so 3168 03:15:00,959 --> 03:15:03,360 Speaker 1: used to thinking about I think people tend to think 3169 03:15:03,400 --> 03:15:06,320 Speaker 1: about like this like linear progress model, where like you 3170 03:15:06,320 --> 03:15:09,160 Speaker 1: go back really far, like all women and all other 3171 03:15:09,280 --> 03:15:11,520 Speaker 1: oppressed categories had it terrible and then it just slowly 3172 03:15:11,560 --> 03:15:14,280 Speaker 1: gets better or whatever. But if they're passing these laws 3173 03:15:14,280 --> 03:15:17,120 Speaker 1: in nine hundred, there's an implicit it was a little 3174 03:15:17,120 --> 03:15:22,439 Speaker 1: better before. Yeah, yeah, it's very specifically gets worse on them. 3175 03:15:22,560 --> 03:15:25,400 Speaker 1: Like so one of the things with the eighteen nine 3176 03:15:25,680 --> 03:15:28,680 Speaker 1: legal coaches that didn't like it literally just legally enshrines 3177 03:15:28,760 --> 03:15:31,720 Speaker 1: like patriarch control the households and this this is this 3178 03:15:31,800 --> 03:15:34,680 Speaker 1: is a massive reactionary shift in in serve of jeoparye 3179 03:15:34,720 --> 03:15:38,520 Speaker 1: like domestic and political culture like this, like that that 3180 03:15:38,600 --> 03:15:40,720 Speaker 1: kind of patriarchal control the household was like a thing 3181 03:15:40,800 --> 03:15:43,200 Speaker 1: in some Samurai families, but like it wasn't a thing 3182 03:15:43,440 --> 03:15:46,040 Speaker 1: for there's a huge number of popular classes like just 3183 03:15:46,120 --> 03:15:48,920 Speaker 1: that didn't exist and they just legislated into existence. And 3184 03:15:48,959 --> 03:15:52,800 Speaker 1: like you know, I mean like the things that the 3185 03:15:52,800 --> 03:15:55,400 Speaker 1: things that they're applying here, like women need consent of 3186 03:15:55,440 --> 03:15:58,600 Speaker 1: their father to marry. Um is for another quote for 3187 03:15:58,640 --> 03:16:01,000 Speaker 1: the book what are the provision has held that quote 3188 03:16:01,000 --> 03:16:04,880 Speaker 1: cripples and disabled persons and wives cannot undertake any legal action. 3189 03:16:06,240 --> 03:16:08,879 Speaker 1: Fucking he huh. Yeah. So this is this is this 3190 03:16:08,920 --> 03:16:11,200 Speaker 1: is an incredibly reactionary state. And there's also like there's 3191 03:16:11,240 --> 03:16:14,480 Speaker 1: a lot of sex trafficking going on, like like actual 3192 03:16:14,560 --> 03:16:16,440 Speaker 1: like there's a lot of people just being grabbed off 3193 03:16:16,440 --> 03:16:20,720 Speaker 1: the street. Um, it's a it's a it is a disaster, 3194 03:16:21,000 --> 03:16:24,800 Speaker 1: and it is into this patriarchal mess that like several 3195 03:16:24,840 --> 03:16:28,560 Speaker 1: generations of Japanese and ARCA feminists step into. Um. The 3196 03:16:28,560 --> 03:16:32,920 Speaker 1: most famous of the first round is Kano Sugako, who's 3197 03:16:32,959 --> 03:16:38,600 Speaker 1: she she's a socialist author who conversed to She originally 3198 03:16:38,600 --> 03:16:40,440 Speaker 1: social listen. She conversed anarchism, which is like a thing 3199 03:16:40,440 --> 03:16:42,360 Speaker 1: that happens a lot in this period. And she she's 3200 03:16:42,360 --> 03:16:46,080 Speaker 1: working as a journalist and you know she she's she's 3201 03:16:46,120 --> 03:16:48,000 Speaker 1: like she's a very sort of controversial figure in the 3202 03:16:48,000 --> 03:16:51,520 Speaker 1: government like hates her. So she meets Kotuku and they 3203 03:16:51,520 --> 03:16:53,840 Speaker 1: have an affair. And this is like one of the 3204 03:16:53,840 --> 03:16:55,720 Speaker 1: other things that keeps happening here is there's a lot 3205 03:16:55,760 --> 03:16:58,160 Speaker 1: of like free love stuff going around the Japanese anarchist 3206 03:16:58,240 --> 03:17:01,400 Speaker 1: circle at this time. And this this has two conseq 3207 03:17:01,440 --> 03:17:02,880 Speaker 1: which is one is a lot of men use it 3208 03:17:02,920 --> 03:17:06,280 Speaker 1: to be really shitty and means there was like there 3209 03:17:06,360 --> 03:17:07,959 Speaker 1: is a again, this is this is this is this 3210 03:17:08,000 --> 03:17:09,440 Speaker 1: is the big like nothing has ever changed in the 3211 03:17:09,440 --> 03:17:13,680 Speaker 1: anchist movement. There are so many relationship drama things nothing. 3212 03:17:14,480 --> 03:17:18,120 Speaker 1: There are so many times this last circle like like 3213 03:17:18,400 --> 03:17:22,440 Speaker 1: they are two different times when the most famous Japanese 3214 03:17:22,480 --> 03:17:24,760 Speaker 1: anchist man and the most famous Japanese ancists women wind 3215 03:17:24,840 --> 03:17:27,080 Speaker 1: up in a relationship. Uh it ends with it with 3216 03:17:27,120 --> 03:17:29,440 Speaker 1: them explaining the movement and then both dying in prison. 3217 03:17:29,600 --> 03:17:35,440 Speaker 1: Like this happens twice. Exact sequence happens twice. It's nuts, 3218 03:17:38,080 --> 03:17:43,120 Speaker 1: like they're they're just they're just doing polyquel ship Like it's, oh, 3219 03:17:44,720 --> 03:17:49,240 Speaker 1: they just need better mediators. Yeah, well, and I mean 3220 03:17:49,480 --> 03:17:51,520 Speaker 1: this is this is the thing with like the Japanese 3221 03:17:51,560 --> 03:17:54,720 Speaker 1: like the Japanese anchist movement like has a huge feminist wing, 3222 03:17:54,720 --> 03:17:58,320 Speaker 1: but like the men still suck, like you just keep 3223 03:17:58,480 --> 03:18:01,960 Speaker 1: being bad and so you know what. The over thing 3224 03:18:02,000 --> 03:18:06,480 Speaker 1: about this is that Kono Sugako is like enormously more 3225 03:18:06,520 --> 03:18:09,560 Speaker 1: militant than like almost every other any other anarchists that's 3226 03:18:09,560 --> 03:18:12,000 Speaker 1: alive in Japan at this point. And so in the 3227 03:18:12,040 --> 03:18:14,160 Speaker 1: nineteen ten she gets involved with the plan to assassinate 3228 03:18:14,240 --> 03:18:17,600 Speaker 1: the emperor Um and this becomes known as the high 3229 03:18:17,600 --> 03:18:20,960 Speaker 1: Treason incidents, and the state like gets wind of this. 3230 03:18:21,160 --> 03:18:26,400 Speaker 1: They arrest her, they arrest uh Go Taku, and they 3231 03:18:26,440 --> 03:18:32,360 Speaker 1: arrest like twenty two other two yeah, twenty two other anarchists. Um. 3232 03:18:32,720 --> 03:18:37,000 Speaker 1: Now like five of these people are like even tangentially 3233 03:18:37,040 --> 03:18:43,320 Speaker 1: involved in this plot, um, but they this is okay, 3234 03:18:43,320 --> 03:18:46,959 Speaker 1: So I can't say that that the Japanese government only 3235 03:18:46,959 --> 03:18:48,920 Speaker 1: does this to anarchist because they do this a fascist 3236 03:18:49,040 --> 03:18:53,039 Speaker 1: like once. But like they do this thing where okay, 3237 03:18:53,080 --> 03:18:54,440 Speaker 1: So they have a bunch of people that they want 3238 03:18:54,440 --> 03:18:57,360 Speaker 1: to execute, right, So they find one person who's like 3239 03:18:57,400 --> 03:19:00,120 Speaker 1: an ideological figure and they're like, okay, you're now in 3240 03:19:00,200 --> 03:19:02,960 Speaker 1: the middle of this and you're the link between like 3241 03:19:03,080 --> 03:19:04,560 Speaker 1: this group and this other group want to kill. This 3242 03:19:04,600 --> 03:19:05,920 Speaker 1: other group want to kill this other group want to 3243 03:19:06,000 --> 03:19:14,560 Speaker 1: kill And so they convict uh like jo Um and 3244 03:19:14,800 --> 03:19:16,959 Speaker 1: uh Ku like they they all get convicted and they 3245 03:19:17,000 --> 03:19:19,800 Speaker 1: all get executed. Yeah, And so this case is also 3246 03:19:19,800 --> 03:19:22,280 Speaker 1: interesting because there's a bunch of people who the state 3247 03:19:22,360 --> 03:19:25,640 Speaker 1: like wanted to kill but they couldn't because they'd already arrested. 3248 03:19:25,640 --> 03:19:28,119 Speaker 1: They'd already they like, this is like two years after 3249 03:19:28,200 --> 03:19:30,560 Speaker 1: like a mass arrest of like half of the Japanese 3250 03:19:30,640 --> 03:19:32,840 Speaker 1: nargist movement. And so they have all these people who 3251 03:19:32,879 --> 03:19:35,520 Speaker 1: are in prison, and it's like even by like the 3252 03:19:35,520 --> 03:19:38,800 Speaker 1: standards of the Japanese state, it's like, Okay, how are 3253 03:19:38,800 --> 03:19:40,680 Speaker 1: we going to convict all of these people who have 3254 03:19:40,720 --> 03:19:43,320 Speaker 1: been in prison for two years of trying to of 3255 03:19:43,360 --> 03:19:45,080 Speaker 1: like being a part of this plot to kill the 3256 03:19:45,080 --> 03:19:48,080 Speaker 1: emperor that was like organized outside of the jail. And 3257 03:19:48,200 --> 03:19:51,280 Speaker 1: so this this is the thing that saves like a 3258 03:19:51,360 --> 03:19:54,200 Speaker 1: huge portion of the Japanese anarchist movements, that saves it 3259 03:19:54,240 --> 03:19:58,120 Speaker 1: from literally so like this the Hydragenon incident kills like 3260 03:19:58,320 --> 03:20:00,480 Speaker 1: most of the famous anarchist of Japan, but it leaves 3261 03:20:00,560 --> 03:20:03,360 Speaker 1: like like a couple alive. And that's why they're alive 3262 03:20:03,440 --> 03:20:06,200 Speaker 1: because they were all in prison. God, wait, how are 3263 03:20:06,200 --> 03:20:10,360 Speaker 1: they going to kill the emperor? The plant didn't get 3264 03:20:10,480 --> 03:20:13,000 Speaker 1: very far. I think they were trying to use a bomb, 3265 03:20:13,480 --> 03:20:16,560 Speaker 1: but the police got wind of it very very early, 3266 03:20:16,920 --> 03:20:19,120 Speaker 1: not classes so that they never really got much like 3267 03:20:19,240 --> 03:20:24,440 Speaker 1: past the planning stage. Um, this is a shame. Yeah yeah, 3268 03:20:24,560 --> 03:20:27,560 Speaker 1: And do you know what else never gets very far 3269 03:20:27,720 --> 03:20:31,600 Speaker 1: plass past the planning stage when they're trying to assassinate 3270 03:20:31,600 --> 03:20:35,920 Speaker 1: the emperor of Japan. Is it the ads because they 3271 03:20:36,600 --> 03:20:40,000 Speaker 1: don't know how to do direct action because they're too 3272 03:20:40,000 --> 03:20:44,800 Speaker 1: in mestion in capitalism? That is, that is actually exactly 3273 03:20:44,840 --> 03:20:47,000 Speaker 1: what we were talking about. Margaret, thank you so much, 3274 03:20:48,080 --> 03:20:50,920 Speaker 1: and we're back. I was genuinely trying to see if 3275 03:20:50,920 --> 03:20:53,000 Speaker 1: I could like think of a of a company that 3276 03:20:53,080 --> 03:20:54,720 Speaker 1: had like tried to kill the Japanese emperor, and I 3277 03:20:54,720 --> 03:20:57,440 Speaker 1: couldn't think of one. And I was like, hmmm, this 3278 03:20:57,520 --> 03:21:00,840 Speaker 1: says something about society. This does. This is a real, 3279 03:21:01,040 --> 03:21:03,800 Speaker 1: real solid critique we have here. I really hope that 3280 03:21:04,720 --> 03:21:08,160 Speaker 1: ten years from now this all seems very dated. You're like, 3281 03:21:08,600 --> 03:21:12,600 Speaker 1: of course someone's major company has tried to never mind, 3282 03:21:14,240 --> 03:21:21,080 Speaker 1: one can dream so kinda. Sugaku is dead, Kotaku is 3283 03:21:21,160 --> 03:21:23,720 Speaker 1: also dead, and this this means that it's time for 3284 03:21:23,760 --> 03:21:26,680 Speaker 1: sort of like another generation of of anarchists to try 3285 03:21:26,720 --> 03:21:29,600 Speaker 1: to fill in the gaps. So they're executed. Yeah, yeah, 3286 03:21:29,600 --> 03:21:32,000 Speaker 1: they're dead, Like they just die and they kill, they kill, 3287 03:21:32,200 --> 03:21:35,440 Speaker 1: they kill like twenty two of the anarchists or something. 3288 03:21:36,280 --> 03:21:38,240 Speaker 1: And I mean this is a this is a huge purge. Mean, 3289 03:21:38,280 --> 03:21:41,240 Speaker 1: they don't wind up executing just like there's just like 3290 03:21:41,760 --> 03:21:46,400 Speaker 1: a like a sympathetic like Buddhist priest. It's executed. Um, 3291 03:21:47,240 --> 03:21:52,400 Speaker 1: I when is this? This is nice and eleven sorry, yeah, 3292 03:21:52,560 --> 03:21:55,680 Speaker 1: this is nice un eleven um and actually there's nothing 3293 03:21:55,800 --> 03:21:58,840 Speaker 1: to think about this kind of Sku becomes the first 3294 03:21:58,879 --> 03:22:01,360 Speaker 1: woman ever executed by the happening state. She will not 3295 03:22:01,440 --> 03:22:07,920 Speaker 1: be the last, like oh boy, um feminist, yeah, I 3296 03:22:07,959 --> 03:22:17,360 Speaker 1: mean equal rights, equal fights. There's another like very influential 3297 03:22:17,400 --> 03:22:22,360 Speaker 1: market feminist who's emergence slightly after, like just like in 3298 03:22:22,560 --> 03:22:27,440 Speaker 1: like nineteen four nine is each on no way. She's 3299 03:22:27,440 --> 03:22:32,080 Speaker 1: an egoist anarchist who eventually last, finally, finally we bring 3300 03:22:32,120 --> 03:22:36,720 Speaker 1: it up. That's all I have to say about. That's 3301 03:22:36,720 --> 03:22:38,600 Speaker 1: like almost all I had to She she she takes 3302 03:22:38,600 --> 03:22:42,200 Speaker 1: over the editorial position of this, uh, this magazine called 3303 03:22:42,200 --> 03:22:44,400 Speaker 1: Blue Stocking Magazine, which is like Japan's and I think 3304 03:22:44,400 --> 03:22:46,320 Speaker 1: it's it's like this is like the most important feminist 3305 03:22:46,320 --> 03:22:49,320 Speaker 1: magazine in Japan, and she takes over the editorial staff 3306 03:22:49,320 --> 03:22:52,400 Speaker 1: about it. And her work is really interesting in a 3307 03:22:52,400 --> 03:22:56,520 Speaker 1: lot of ways because it just it just straight up 3308 03:22:57,000 --> 03:22:59,879 Speaker 1: is contemporary feminism in a way that like a lot 3309 03:22:59,879 --> 03:23:02,160 Speaker 1: of the stuff in this period isn't like if if 3310 03:23:02,400 --> 03:23:04,680 Speaker 1: you go and read the arguments she's having, she's arguing 3311 03:23:04,720 --> 03:23:06,360 Speaker 1: that sex works should be legal and that everyone should 3312 03:23:06,360 --> 03:23:08,280 Speaker 1: be should be able to get abortions because women should 3313 03:23:08,280 --> 03:23:17,160 Speaker 1: have autonomy over their bodies. Yeah, it's like, yeah, this 3314 03:23:16,440 --> 03:23:18,480 Speaker 1: is this is not going to end well for her, 3315 03:23:20,120 --> 03:23:22,920 Speaker 1: but you know what, it doesn't end well for any 3316 03:23:23,000 --> 03:23:25,640 Speaker 1: of us in a long enough timeline. You know, like 3317 03:23:25,800 --> 03:23:27,680 Speaker 1: all that matters is the time of what we do. 3318 03:23:27,840 --> 03:23:33,360 Speaker 1: At this time, we are gularly bad. Okay, fine, yeah, 3319 03:23:33,680 --> 03:23:35,320 Speaker 1: so yeah, I think so she's able to do this 3320 03:23:35,320 --> 03:23:37,760 Speaker 1: for like a year, and the Japanese state looks at this, 3321 03:23:37,800 --> 03:23:43,080 Speaker 1: it is like absolutely not and shust the magazine down. Um, 3322 03:23:43,320 --> 03:23:45,000 Speaker 1: so she she gets forced to move on to other things. 3323 03:23:45,040 --> 03:23:46,879 Speaker 1: And the other thing she moved on she moves on 3324 03:23:46,920 --> 03:23:49,560 Speaker 1: to is being extremely heavily involved in the free love 3325 03:23:49,640 --> 03:23:53,480 Speaker 1: movement of course. Yeah yeah, and and but also, and 3326 03:23:53,720 --> 03:23:56,000 Speaker 1: this is the thing that's that's interesting about the sort 3327 03:23:56,000 --> 03:23:59,320 Speaker 1: of periodge of Japanese anarchism is that like the egoists 3328 03:23:59,360 --> 03:24:04,000 Speaker 1: are all also Nicholas yeah yeah, yeah, yeah yeah yeah. 3329 03:24:04,040 --> 03:24:06,920 Speaker 1: And she's so she she's like heavily involved in labor organizing, 3330 03:24:06,959 --> 03:24:09,440 Speaker 1: and this is how she comes into contact with her partner, 3331 03:24:09,720 --> 03:24:14,879 Speaker 1: who she's like cheating on her imprisoned husband, who will 3332 03:24:14,959 --> 03:24:19,400 Speaker 1: later form the Japanese Communist Party. That's a lot of 3333 03:24:19,440 --> 03:24:22,280 Speaker 1: stuff happening. There's there, there's so much, there's so much beef. 3334 03:24:24,920 --> 03:24:29,039 Speaker 1: It's incredible. There's there's this like we haven't even gotten 3335 03:24:29,080 --> 03:24:31,480 Speaker 1: to the wild part of this relationship yet, okay, which 3336 03:24:31,480 --> 03:24:33,320 Speaker 1: is so so okay. So she she comes in contact 3337 03:24:33,360 --> 03:24:35,680 Speaker 1: with her partner or person who would become her partner, 3338 03:24:36,480 --> 03:24:40,440 Speaker 1: Osaki Sakai, who is like dating another very famous Japanese 3339 03:24:40,520 --> 03:24:43,080 Speaker 1: arca feminist, who she stabs him in the neck over 3340 03:24:43,240 --> 03:24:45,680 Speaker 1: the fact that she's in multiple relationships at once. So 3341 03:24:45,760 --> 03:24:50,520 Speaker 1: this isn't really a free from her point, Yeah, this 3342 03:24:50,600 --> 03:24:52,200 Speaker 1: is this is the thing that keeps happening with free 3343 03:24:52,240 --> 03:24:54,240 Speaker 1: love of this period. It's like you gotta like, you 3344 03:24:54,240 --> 03:24:57,680 Speaker 1: gotta lay down, you gotta make sure everyone's okay with everything. 3345 03:24:57,920 --> 03:25:01,960 Speaker 1: They should have seemed to in theory, but in practice 3346 03:25:02,000 --> 03:25:06,400 Speaker 1: they sure, yeah, sure do fall apart? Huh yeah? And 3347 03:25:06,600 --> 03:25:09,280 Speaker 1: this two divides the Japanese anity. But does she win, 3348 03:25:09,360 --> 03:25:11,440 Speaker 1: did she succeed, did she kill him or did he survive? 3349 03:25:11,520 --> 03:25:16,160 Speaker 1: That Okay, yeah, I'm just I have there's a special 3350 03:25:16,160 --> 03:25:22,640 Speaker 1: place in my heart for split slit throats of patriarchal man. Anyway, 3351 03:25:22,959 --> 03:25:28,279 Speaker 1: So most like Kai is also very heavily evolving labor organizing, 3352 03:25:28,320 --> 03:25:32,039 Speaker 1: and he he's one of the guys who like turns 3353 03:25:32,040 --> 03:25:35,240 Speaker 1: anarchists labor into like a serious political force, which is 3354 03:25:35,440 --> 03:25:39,760 Speaker 1: maybe it's good that they survived. Yeah, like it's probably 3355 03:25:39,879 --> 03:25:45,199 Speaker 1: net good. But all of the guys in this story 3356 03:25:45,400 --> 03:25:51,360 Speaker 1: like suck except do I haven't except here? What about 3357 03:25:51,360 --> 03:25:55,280 Speaker 1: the Korean guy? Who? Um oh yeah, we get to him. Yeah, 3358 03:25:55,400 --> 03:25:58,880 Speaker 1: he's he's kind of like I think he's actually fine. Yeah, 3359 03:25:59,160 --> 03:26:01,680 Speaker 1: I think maybe the end this story gets weird. Yeah 3360 03:26:01,959 --> 03:26:04,400 Speaker 1: we'll we'll we'll get to them in a second. Um. 3361 03:26:04,440 --> 03:26:07,280 Speaker 1: But yeah, So Saya Sakai has like he has he 3362 03:26:07,320 --> 03:26:09,720 Speaker 1: has this like fusion of like egoism and syndicalism, where 3363 03:26:09,720 --> 03:26:12,320 Speaker 1: like the individual ego will be liberated through collective action, 3364 03:26:12,400 --> 03:26:13,800 Speaker 1: but the goal of the workers movement is not to 3365 03:26:13,879 --> 03:26:17,040 Speaker 1: just like end poverty, it's to like liberate the individual 3366 03:26:17,120 --> 03:26:20,599 Speaker 1: and give themselves developments. And he's also this like incredibly 3367 03:26:20,800 --> 03:26:24,000 Speaker 1: fierce like like one of his big thing is that 3368 03:26:24,040 --> 03:26:26,360 Speaker 1: like he does not want intellectuals anywhere you're the workers 3369 03:26:26,400 --> 03:26:32,760 Speaker 1: movement does absolutely not. Yeah, and this is because like 3370 03:26:32,760 --> 03:26:34,560 Speaker 1: again he's been around for ages, Like he becomes an 3371 03:26:34,560 --> 03:26:38,240 Speaker 1: anarchist around the time when Um Kotaku doesn't like that's 3372 03:26:38,240 --> 03:26:40,200 Speaker 1: no six, So he's been like arounded. He's one of 3373 03:26:40,240 --> 03:26:41,760 Speaker 1: the guys who survives the high Trees in the incident 3374 03:26:41,800 --> 03:26:45,400 Speaker 1: because he was already in prison. Okay, all right, and 3375 03:26:45,440 --> 03:26:47,800 Speaker 1: so he like he's one of the people who like 3376 03:26:47,879 --> 03:26:50,120 Speaker 1: keeps the sort of flame of anarchism alive after like 3377 03:26:50,200 --> 03:26:53,200 Speaker 1: their fashion nineteen eleven. But unfortunately for him Um and 3378 03:26:53,280 --> 03:26:54,880 Speaker 1: for eacho, no way, they get caught up in the 3379 03:26:55,200 --> 03:27:00,200 Speaker 1: Canto earthquake, of which is this like this earthquake between 3380 03:27:00,720 --> 03:27:06,200 Speaker 1: Yokohama and Tokyo alone kills two hundred thousand people. It 3381 03:27:06,320 --> 03:27:07,720 Speaker 1: is like it is like it is one of the 3382 03:27:07,760 --> 03:27:13,040 Speaker 1: worst like natural disasters. It's it's really bad and in 3383 03:27:13,080 --> 03:27:16,439 Speaker 1: immediately gets worse. The state wouldn't use a natural disaster 3384 03:27:16,640 --> 03:27:20,879 Speaker 1: to try and further its aims through extra legal means. Yeah, 3385 03:27:20,920 --> 03:27:25,359 Speaker 1: So okay, I'm gonna start with one of the ways 3386 03:27:25,400 --> 03:27:29,039 Speaker 1: that the genocide of Korean people in Japan at this 3387 03:27:29,120 --> 03:27:33,000 Speaker 1: time starts is so there's a bunch of Korean workers 3388 03:27:33,000 --> 03:27:35,080 Speaker 1: in a long turre union that's been organized by this 3389 03:27:35,080 --> 03:27:37,680 Speaker 1: builit in like left his union guy named Yamaguchi Saka 3390 03:27:37,800 --> 03:27:40,960 Speaker 1: and okay, so like they're in this long shore union. 3391 03:27:41,040 --> 03:27:43,119 Speaker 1: There's this disaster. They start doing mul a. They start 3392 03:27:43,120 --> 03:27:44,600 Speaker 1: going out. They started taking care of so if I 3393 03:27:44,840 --> 03:27:47,760 Speaker 1: started giving people food. But you know, they're they're like 3394 03:27:47,800 --> 03:27:50,520 Speaker 1: waving red flags and stuff, and the Japanese police lose 3395 03:27:50,600 --> 03:27:53,000 Speaker 1: their minds and are like, oh my god, there the 3396 03:27:53,080 --> 03:27:56,920 Speaker 1: jet the Koreans are doing socialism and they just start 3397 03:27:56,959 --> 03:28:02,000 Speaker 1: killing them and they there's this whole thing about like 3398 03:28:02,000 --> 03:28:04,959 Speaker 1: there's these rumors started like Koreans are raping Japanese women 3399 03:28:04,959 --> 03:28:06,840 Speaker 1: and it turns into this thing about like looting, and 3400 03:28:06,840 --> 03:28:10,000 Speaker 1: then like Korean malcontents are supposed to be like overrunning 3401 03:28:10,000 --> 03:28:14,920 Speaker 1: police stations and the lynch mobs. The lists are mostly 3402 03:28:14,920 --> 03:28:17,039 Speaker 1: targeting Koreans, but they're also tart, like if you're Chinese, 3403 03:28:17,120 --> 03:28:20,480 Speaker 1: if you're from Baku Islands, like they're killing you. Two um, 3404 03:28:20,520 --> 03:28:23,200 Speaker 1: they kill two thousand Koreans in Tokyo and another two 3405 03:28:23,280 --> 03:28:28,120 Speaker 1: thousand in Yokohama, and like two thousand Koreans in Yokohama, 3406 03:28:28,160 --> 03:28:31,600 Speaker 1: that is half the Korean population of the city. And 3407 03:28:31,680 --> 03:28:35,720 Speaker 1: these people die like horribly, like because it's not like 3408 03:28:35,720 --> 03:28:38,520 Speaker 1: so that the polices are actively hunting them down. Like 3409 03:28:38,680 --> 03:28:43,080 Speaker 1: the entirety of Japanese society like remembers that they really 3410 03:28:43,120 --> 03:28:45,840 Speaker 1: like killing people and they really like fighting, and like 3411 03:28:46,160 --> 03:28:49,879 Speaker 1: you have people like taking their like ceremonial swords from 3412 03:28:49,920 --> 03:28:52,160 Speaker 1: like their ancestors who are in the major revolution, Like 3413 03:28:52,160 --> 03:28:54,600 Speaker 1: they're taking their katanas going industry and murdering people with them, 3414 03:28:54,640 --> 03:28:57,320 Speaker 1: like people just like have fish hooks and they're just 3415 03:28:57,440 --> 03:28:59,640 Speaker 1: murdering people in the street. And this goes on for 3416 03:28:59,760 --> 03:29:01,640 Speaker 1: like this is on for days, and one of the 3417 03:29:01,640 --> 03:29:05,400 Speaker 1: things that happens in this is um, well, okay, so 3418 03:29:05,480 --> 03:29:08,600 Speaker 1: the one of the other things happens in this period 3419 03:29:08,640 --> 03:29:11,320 Speaker 1: that the Javits government just starts like arresting random left 3420 03:29:11,320 --> 03:29:15,920 Speaker 1: iss and executing them. Yeah, and that's what was supposed 3421 03:29:15,959 --> 03:29:19,160 Speaker 1: to happen to know to Echo no A and Osaka Sakai. 3422 03:29:19,720 --> 03:29:22,600 Speaker 1: But they get arrested by squad and military police led 3423 03:29:22,640 --> 03:29:30,440 Speaker 1: by mashachikom Akasu who just she just murders them. Um. 3424 03:29:30,480 --> 03:29:33,760 Speaker 1: There's like conflicting stories of how this happened. I there's 3425 03:29:33,800 --> 03:29:36,680 Speaker 1: there's one version of it where like he kills them 3426 03:29:36,959 --> 03:29:39,120 Speaker 1: and like their six year old nephew and throws their 3427 03:29:39,120 --> 03:29:41,440 Speaker 1: bodies out a well. There's another version of it where 3428 03:29:41,440 --> 03:29:43,560 Speaker 1: they get strangled and that he strangles have been prison 3429 03:29:44,520 --> 03:29:46,560 Speaker 1: and this is like a huge outrage, but it's not 3430 03:29:46,680 --> 03:29:48,160 Speaker 1: huge at range because he murdered them as a huge 3431 03:29:48,160 --> 03:29:50,800 Speaker 1: outrage because he's supposed to wait for the trial. H 3432 03:29:51,440 --> 03:29:57,080 Speaker 1: I mean, and yeah, And this is one of the 3433 03:29:57,080 --> 03:29:58,440 Speaker 1: things that like this is this is part of how 3434 03:29:58,560 --> 03:30:01,400 Speaker 1: like fascism comes to Japan, is that like he becomes 3435 03:30:01,400 --> 03:30:02,840 Speaker 1: a hero for the fascist right, Like he goes to 3436 03:30:02,920 --> 03:30:05,240 Speaker 1: prison for ten years supposedly, but he only serves three 3437 03:30:05,760 --> 03:30:07,879 Speaker 1: and then he gets out. He becomes a hero, and 3438 03:30:07,879 --> 03:30:11,400 Speaker 1: then he becomes basically the head of like the sort 3439 03:30:11,400 --> 03:30:14,119 Speaker 1: of fascist secret police in the like Maenturian puppet state. 3440 03:30:15,200 --> 03:30:17,440 Speaker 1: But on the upside, he when would Japan loses to war, 3441 03:30:17,520 --> 03:30:22,960 Speaker 1: he kills himself. So when I with the story I 3442 03:30:22,959 --> 03:30:25,400 Speaker 1: had heard was that the Throne in the Well story, 3443 03:30:25,520 --> 03:30:27,400 Speaker 1: and I remember it. It's stuck with me so much 3444 03:30:27,400 --> 03:30:32,080 Speaker 1: because the first time I met anarchists from Japan, they 3445 03:30:32,160 --> 03:30:35,160 Speaker 1: gave me a zine and it was like Japanese anarchist martyrs, 3446 03:30:35,400 --> 03:30:37,199 Speaker 1: you know, like the martyrs of our movement or whatever. 3447 03:30:37,640 --> 03:30:39,200 Speaker 1: And I was like looking through it and we're all 3448 03:30:39,280 --> 03:30:43,760 Speaker 1: of these children, and it just like really emotionally affected 3449 03:30:43,800 --> 03:30:47,840 Speaker 1: me that I was like, oh, y'all's martyrs include all 3450 03:30:47,840 --> 03:30:51,680 Speaker 1: of these like literally not like like literal like like 3451 03:30:51,720 --> 03:30:54,880 Speaker 1: six year olds and stuff, because you know they came 3452 03:30:54,920 --> 03:30:57,840 Speaker 1: and killed not just the grown up anarchists, but the 3453 03:30:57,879 --> 03:31:01,959 Speaker 1: baby anarchists or whatever as well. Um, I know that 3454 03:31:02,000 --> 03:31:03,960 Speaker 1: this has happened lots of places, but it just it 3455 03:31:04,040 --> 03:31:06,720 Speaker 1: really stuck with me. So whether it's true or not, 3456 03:31:06,800 --> 03:31:08,760 Speaker 1: the story I heard was this story about the well, 3457 03:31:08,840 --> 03:31:12,120 Speaker 1: and then it's stuck with me. Yeah, I mean, like 3458 03:31:12,200 --> 03:31:21,120 Speaker 1: the level of repression in Japan, like it's it's unlike 3459 03:31:21,120 --> 03:31:23,280 Speaker 1: anything I've ever seen that's not in a country that's 3460 03:31:23,280 --> 03:31:26,560 Speaker 1: literally in the middle of the civil war, like they 3461 03:31:26,840 --> 03:31:32,440 Speaker 1: just they just like murder people like constantly. Yeah. And 3462 03:31:32,560 --> 03:31:33,720 Speaker 1: then this is one of the other things, like one 3463 03:31:33,720 --> 03:31:35,600 Speaker 1: of the things that starts the right wing like turn 3464 03:31:35,640 --> 03:31:38,280 Speaker 1: in Japanese society is when is when the earth work 3465 03:31:38,320 --> 03:31:41,280 Speaker 1: happens and the government is like like they're like the 3466 03:31:41,280 --> 03:31:43,320 Speaker 1: police are being like, it's the Koreans. You need to 3467 03:31:43,320 --> 03:31:46,520 Speaker 1: go fight the Koreans, and so they do and like 3468 03:31:46,560 --> 03:31:49,520 Speaker 1: I mean yeah, like wait, they like blame the earthquake 3469 03:31:49,560 --> 03:31:51,959 Speaker 1: on the Koreans. Yeah, well, so everything is there's this fire, 3470 03:31:52,080 --> 03:31:56,440 Speaker 1: the fire kills like sixty people, like it it consumes 3471 03:31:56,840 --> 03:32:00,760 Speaker 1: they're like they're they're the urban core of uh, what's 3472 03:32:00,760 --> 03:32:05,240 Speaker 1: the name of that city, h the urban core of 3473 03:32:05,320 --> 03:32:07,960 Speaker 1: Yokohama just goes up in flames, like six people burned 3474 03:32:07,959 --> 03:32:11,400 Speaker 1: to death, and that's the government needs some explanation for. Yeah, 3475 03:32:11,480 --> 03:32:13,400 Speaker 1: it's horrible, but like the governments are explation for it. 3476 03:32:13,400 --> 03:32:16,040 Speaker 1: They're like, oh, we'll blame the Koreans. And then suddenly 3477 03:32:16,360 --> 03:32:20,360 Speaker 1: all of these people are just like like the whole 3478 03:32:20,400 --> 03:32:23,320 Speaker 1: of Japanese society just goes into this total mobilization like 3479 03:32:23,480 --> 03:32:26,680 Speaker 1: kill mode thing and they just murder enormous numbers of 3480 03:32:26,720 --> 03:32:29,279 Speaker 1: people and this and like that this has this enormous 3481 03:32:29,280 --> 03:32:31,360 Speaker 1: sort of like like cultural affection, shifting people back to 3482 03:32:31,400 --> 03:32:33,920 Speaker 1: the right and shifting people back towards militarism because now 3483 03:32:33,959 --> 03:32:36,640 Speaker 1: they've like you know, like they've they've tasted blood, they've 3484 03:32:36,680 --> 03:32:39,640 Speaker 1: like they've gotten this sort of sense of it yeah, 3485 03:32:39,680 --> 03:32:43,400 Speaker 1: it is brutal um and before we go, we're gonna 3486 03:32:43,440 --> 03:32:47,400 Speaker 1: kill off one more anarchist the team. Can we kill 3487 03:32:47,440 --> 03:32:51,200 Speaker 1: off the other team instead? Unfortunately, no, none of them 3488 03:32:51,240 --> 03:32:52,920 Speaker 1: die in this story. It's the worst. All of the 3489 03:32:52,920 --> 03:32:58,920 Speaker 1: assassination attempts fail. It's so sad. Yeah, I'm sorry sight 3490 03:33:00,000 --> 03:33:02,640 Speaker 1: me what I happened. I forgot how depressing this because 3491 03:33:03,080 --> 03:33:04,880 Speaker 1: I was I was remembering part two of this, which 3492 03:33:04,920 --> 03:33:08,600 Speaker 1: is just like absolutely hilarious, kind of pointless like ideological 3493 03:33:08,640 --> 03:33:11,000 Speaker 1: battle over like things that are kind of dumb, and 3494 03:33:11,000 --> 03:33:12,440 Speaker 1: then I forgot about the first part of the story, 3495 03:33:12,440 --> 03:33:16,480 Speaker 1: which is everyone gets executed. So the last person who 3496 03:33:16,480 --> 03:33:19,199 Speaker 1: we're talking about he gets executed is is Fumiko Konako. 3497 03:33:19,879 --> 03:33:24,360 Speaker 1: Who is Fumokko? So she she she's a nihilist anarchist, 3498 03:33:24,400 --> 03:33:26,440 Speaker 1: but she's different from like everyone else we've talked about 3499 03:33:26,560 --> 03:33:29,600 Speaker 1: today so far because when she's a kid, she gets 3500 03:33:29,600 --> 03:33:33,680 Speaker 1: sent to live in Japanese occupied Korea, and so she 3501 03:33:33,720 --> 03:33:36,360 Speaker 1: goes there and she gets like horribly abused by her family, 3502 03:33:36,640 --> 03:33:39,040 Speaker 1: which leads to become like leaves of her becoming a nihilist, 3503 03:33:39,080 --> 03:33:41,800 Speaker 1: but it means to like, okay, so like like a 3504 03:33:41,800 --> 03:33:44,800 Speaker 1: lot of the anarchists like in Japan talk a big 3505 03:33:44,840 --> 03:33:47,440 Speaker 1: game again about anti like imperialism, right, and like they 3506 03:33:47,480 --> 03:33:49,520 Speaker 1: will do things like yeah, like they will go fight 3507 03:33:49,520 --> 03:33:51,080 Speaker 1: police to try to stop a war for happening, but 3508 03:33:51,080 --> 03:33:55,760 Speaker 1: they don't really talk to people in Korea very much. 3509 03:33:57,080 --> 03:33:59,760 Speaker 1: And Fumio Kanico was like the exception to that because 3510 03:33:59,760 --> 03:34:03,160 Speaker 1: you know, she lived there for a long time. Um 3511 03:34:03,240 --> 03:34:06,480 Speaker 1: and she she winds up marrying pack Yol, who is 3512 03:34:06,560 --> 03:34:08,959 Speaker 1: a very influential Korean anarchist, and they they do a 3513 03:34:08,959 --> 03:34:11,960 Speaker 1: bunch of organizing the specifically like that their their thing is. 3514 03:34:11,959 --> 03:34:13,840 Speaker 1: They're trying to like get there, trying to enter the 3515 03:34:14,320 --> 03:34:19,560 Speaker 1: Japanese occupation, and you know they're they're doing great work. 3516 03:34:19,600 --> 03:34:22,920 Speaker 1: And then unfortunately, after the earthquake, Uh, she and pak 3517 03:34:23,000 --> 03:34:25,280 Speaker 1: Yo are and uh, stop me if you've heard this 3518 03:34:25,280 --> 03:34:27,680 Speaker 1: one before, they are sentenced to death for a supposed 3519 03:34:27,720 --> 03:34:30,640 Speaker 1: plot to kill the emperor. Wait wait now, yeah, we 3520 03:34:30,640 --> 03:34:33,560 Speaker 1: already did this part. You're just repeating, Yeah, yeah, they 3521 03:34:33,600 --> 03:34:36,560 Speaker 1: do it again. This is the second time. Like they 3522 03:34:36,600 --> 03:34:39,640 Speaker 1: just keep doing this and this one it's unclear if 3523 03:34:39,640 --> 03:34:42,440 Speaker 1: there was actually a plot, and if there was a plot, 3524 03:34:42,440 --> 03:34:44,800 Speaker 1: it's unclear to what extent form can code was like 3525 03:34:44,840 --> 03:34:47,080 Speaker 1: involved with it. But while she's gonna get arrogated, she's like, 3526 03:34:47,120 --> 03:34:49,640 Speaker 1: oh yeah, no, Like I hate the Emperor. I was 3527 03:34:49,680 --> 03:34:51,560 Speaker 1: absolutely involved in a plot to kill him, Like I 3528 03:34:51,600 --> 03:34:54,560 Speaker 1: was making a bomb to kill him. Uh. Also, I'm 3529 03:34:54,560 --> 03:34:57,120 Speaker 1: an anarchist. And here's like an incredibly detailed sketch of 3530 03:34:57,200 --> 03:34:59,520 Speaker 1: like all of the oppression in Japanese society. But I'm 3531 03:34:59,520 --> 03:35:01,840 Speaker 1: just gonna tell you, like the person she's like the 3532 03:35:01,840 --> 03:35:05,840 Speaker 1: court examiner, who's like and and you know, there's there's 3533 03:35:05,959 --> 03:35:08,800 Speaker 1: anything that happens where she and Pacuole are like are 3534 03:35:08,800 --> 03:35:11,160 Speaker 1: handed pardons as like the sort of like mercy of 3535 03:35:11,200 --> 03:35:15,360 Speaker 1: the Emperor thing, and paciol like takes it but go 3536 03:35:15,440 --> 03:35:17,160 Speaker 1: kind of co like they hander the paper and she 3537 03:35:17,240 --> 03:35:20,080 Speaker 1: chears it to shreds in front of them. And it's 3538 03:35:20,120 --> 03:35:23,280 Speaker 1: so embarrassing that like the record of what happened is 3539 03:35:23,320 --> 03:35:27,120 Speaker 1: like sealed until after World War Two because it was 3540 03:35:27,120 --> 03:35:30,480 Speaker 1: a big like, um, it was like a big media scandal, 3541 03:35:30,680 --> 03:35:32,640 Speaker 1: all of the stuff with them being arrested, right, And 3542 03:35:32,760 --> 03:35:35,840 Speaker 1: I'm basically I don't actually know more, but I watched 3543 03:35:35,879 --> 03:35:38,160 Speaker 1: a movie once. There's a great movie about this called 3544 03:35:38,200 --> 03:35:42,080 Speaker 1: Anarchists from Colony. This part of it. Yeah yeah, and 3545 03:35:42,080 --> 03:35:44,640 Speaker 1: she yeah, and like yeah, it's just the whole thing, 3546 03:35:44,640 --> 03:35:46,440 Speaker 1: and like that. The government also kind of doesn't want 3547 03:35:46,480 --> 03:35:49,920 Speaker 1: to assassinate them because it looks really bad that. I mean, 3548 03:35:50,240 --> 03:35:53,160 Speaker 1: they've they've they've picked, they've they've arrested to random people 3549 03:35:53,280 --> 03:35:55,880 Speaker 1: who like have done nothing, and they're just gonna kill them. 3550 03:35:56,040 --> 03:35:58,640 Speaker 1: But for mechanicals like no, like, I believe in the 3551 03:35:58,680 --> 03:36:01,720 Speaker 1: things that I believe in, and I will literally like 3552 03:36:01,879 --> 03:36:04,640 Speaker 1: tear up this parted and die for it. And so 3553 03:36:04,840 --> 03:36:07,640 Speaker 1: she tears out the pardon and so she goes to prison, 3554 03:36:07,680 --> 03:36:10,279 Speaker 1: and she lives long enough to write like the greatest 3555 03:36:10,400 --> 03:36:13,160 Speaker 1: entry in the in the genre of an archi feminist 3556 03:36:13,520 --> 03:36:17,240 Speaker 1: a Japanese narchi feminist prison memoirs, which is an entire genre. 3557 03:36:17,400 --> 03:36:21,520 Speaker 1: There's like multiple books because it keeps happening and these 3558 03:36:21,520 --> 03:36:23,959 Speaker 1: people get arrested and set the prison. It's called the 3559 03:36:23,959 --> 03:36:27,360 Speaker 1: Prison Memoirs of a Japanese Woman. It's great, everyone should 3560 03:36:27,360 --> 03:36:30,400 Speaker 1: go read it. It's it's also extremely depressing because her 3561 03:36:30,440 --> 03:36:36,400 Speaker 1: life sucks, but yeah, it's it's it's good. Um. Yeah. 3562 03:36:36,440 --> 03:36:39,760 Speaker 1: And so now having killed off the leading intellectuals of 3563 03:36:39,879 --> 03:36:43,959 Speaker 1: anarchism again for the second time in a generation. You 3564 03:36:43,959 --> 03:36:46,120 Speaker 1: would think that this would this would kill the movement, 3565 03:36:46,160 --> 03:36:50,320 Speaker 1: like I think, I think like movements like if if 3566 03:36:50,320 --> 03:36:54,160 Speaker 1: you kill they're leading intellectuals, like all of them, like 3567 03:36:54,560 --> 03:37:00,480 Speaker 1: twice in like twelve years, like the movement collapses. Yeah. That, 3568 03:37:01,640 --> 03:37:04,080 Speaker 1: but at the very beginning there was the guy who 3569 03:37:04,120 --> 03:37:07,400 Speaker 1: said keep the intellectuals away from the labor organizing. Maybe 3570 03:37:07,440 --> 03:37:10,240 Speaker 1: he is right, well, but this, this is this. Yeah. 3571 03:37:10,280 --> 03:37:11,760 Speaker 1: The incredible thing about this is no, it doesn't it 3572 03:37:11,760 --> 03:37:15,160 Speaker 1: doesn't kill them. They keep going like and they have 3573 03:37:15,240 --> 03:37:19,080 Speaker 1: they have one last glorious, glorious and absolutely baffling hurrah. 3574 03:37:19,640 --> 03:37:24,800 Speaker 1: Okay of like in fighting, extremely weird and funny in fighting. 3575 03:37:25,640 --> 03:37:27,880 Speaker 1: So yeah, that that's what we're gonna be talking about 3576 03:37:28,080 --> 03:37:33,879 Speaker 1: next episode. All right, Yeah, is it time for the 3577 03:37:33,879 --> 03:37:38,160 Speaker 1: plug of the plug? Yes? Oh oh, Margaret you who 3578 03:37:38,200 --> 03:37:42,039 Speaker 1: have a new podcast about that? It's on this very network, 3579 03:37:42,080 --> 03:37:44,480 Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media, on this very network. I have my 3580 03:37:44,560 --> 03:37:47,760 Speaker 1: own podcast. Is it called cool People Who Did Cool 3581 03:37:47,800 --> 03:37:51,360 Speaker 1: Stuff and Doesn't Believe? So? Does it come out on 3582 03:37:51,600 --> 03:37:54,360 Speaker 1: May second? And is it produced by the webby Award 3583 03:37:54,440 --> 03:38:00,720 Speaker 1: winning Sophie lie German? Uh? Perhaps? And do episodes drop 3584 03:38:00,800 --> 03:38:05,080 Speaker 1: every Monday and Wednesday? I think they do. Uh, that 3585 03:38:05,240 --> 03:38:09,600 Speaker 1: is super, super exciting. And you can find that wherever 3586 03:38:09,879 --> 03:38:14,960 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts, remember quickly anywhere you get them, 3587 03:38:14,959 --> 03:38:17,440 Speaker 1: Like if there's a peddler on the corner who sells 3588 03:38:17,440 --> 03:38:22,840 Speaker 1: you podcasts, your pain, get your podcast, get your podcast. 3589 03:38:23,080 --> 03:38:29,600 Speaker 1: It's half off today to two for one exactly. And 3590 03:38:29,640 --> 03:38:33,920 Speaker 1: where and where can people follow you on the interwebs? Uh? Well, 3591 03:38:34,000 --> 03:38:36,440 Speaker 1: for now, you can follow me on Twitter before the 3592 03:38:36,480 --> 03:38:41,200 Speaker 1: mass exodus h at Magpie killed Roy. And you can 3593 03:38:41,200 --> 03:38:43,959 Speaker 1: follow me on Instagram, which we've all known for a 3594 03:38:44,040 --> 03:38:48,280 Speaker 1: very long time is owned by evil people, and that 3595 03:38:48,440 --> 03:38:51,560 Speaker 1: is Magpie. No, Margaret killed Roy because I wasn't clever 3596 03:38:51,680 --> 03:38:54,080 Speaker 1: enough to get my own name in both places. I 3597 03:38:54,160 --> 03:38:57,520 Speaker 1: don't know why I'm explaining this to you, but you 3598 03:38:57,560 --> 03:39:00,200 Speaker 1: can follow me on social media and that's where I am, 3599 03:39:00,200 --> 03:39:02,440 Speaker 1: and I post pictures of my dog that keeps barking 3600 03:39:02,480 --> 03:39:04,640 Speaker 1: in the background while I'm trying to record this episode. 3601 03:39:05,720 --> 03:39:08,360 Speaker 1: But but if you, if you follow Margaret, you'll see 3602 03:39:08,360 --> 03:39:10,520 Speaker 1: her dog and you'll understand that it is worth it 3603 03:39:10,600 --> 03:39:16,959 Speaker 1: because he is handsome, very nice and agrees. Well, I'm 3604 03:39:17,080 --> 03:39:20,600 Speaker 1: very excited to start listening to cp w DC as 3605 03:39:20,840 --> 03:39:50,240 Speaker 1: just the best. Uh is that the episode episode? I 3606 03:39:50,240 --> 03:39:53,600 Speaker 1: guess I'm starting this one. Hi, welcome to take it 3607 03:39:53,640 --> 03:39:57,760 Speaker 1: happened here. It's a show. If you're listening to this episode, 3608 03:39:57,800 --> 03:40:00,520 Speaker 1: you probably listen to the last one. You know what 3609 03:40:00,560 --> 03:40:03,000 Speaker 1: it's about. Yeah, please do don't start. I mean, I 3610 03:40:03,040 --> 03:40:05,440 Speaker 1: guess you could start with this one because this one 3611 03:40:05,520 --> 03:40:07,440 Speaker 1: is sort of wildly different than the last one. But 3612 03:40:08,800 --> 03:40:13,360 Speaker 1: this one we're rewriting it so they all survive. Yeah, 3613 03:40:13,440 --> 03:40:16,800 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't. No one gets executed this episode. Yes, 3614 03:40:17,200 --> 03:40:20,119 Speaker 1: that is that is a win. And the cosmists come, 3615 03:40:20,200 --> 03:40:26,080 Speaker 1: the Russian Cosmist come, and they resurrect at least Canikofumico um, 3616 03:40:26,240 --> 03:40:29,480 Speaker 1: the rest, give or take whatever. Maybe the children could 3617 03:40:29,520 --> 03:40:33,720 Speaker 1: be resurrected. That's how I would prioritize it in that order. 3618 03:40:34,879 --> 03:40:39,520 Speaker 1: That makes sense. Yeah. Um. And that voice you're hearing 3619 03:40:39,680 --> 03:40:44,519 Speaker 1: is Margaret Killjoy, host of Cool, host of cpw DCS 3620 03:40:44,959 --> 03:40:47,640 Speaker 1: Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff Cool Medio podcast that 3621 03:40:47,840 --> 03:40:51,199 Speaker 1: is launching its first episode on May second, and episodes 3622 03:40:51,240 --> 03:40:54,520 Speaker 1: are every Monday and Wednesday. I did it? Okay? Who? 3623 03:40:55,600 --> 03:40:58,440 Speaker 1: That's true? All the things are true, except the cosmos 3624 03:40:58,520 --> 03:41:02,480 Speaker 1: part that the cosmists I don't know. Maybe maybe maybe 3625 03:41:02,480 --> 03:41:06,760 Speaker 1: they'll still pull it off as as if yet, so 3626 03:41:06,840 --> 03:41:10,760 Speaker 1: we're gonna go back a little bit. Um. We ended 3627 03:41:10,840 --> 03:41:16,440 Speaker 1: last episode with everyone sort of dead. Um. But the 3628 03:41:16,680 --> 03:41:19,360 Speaker 1: reason that also didn't wipe out the the anarchist movement 3629 03:41:19,400 --> 03:41:20,960 Speaker 1: was that there's that does another sort of wing of it, 3630 03:41:21,000 --> 03:41:25,560 Speaker 1: and the other wing of it is in in nineteen eighteen, 3631 03:41:25,840 --> 03:41:28,240 Speaker 1: labor movement in Japan re emerges, and it re emerges 3632 03:41:28,320 --> 03:41:31,039 Speaker 1: because there's the war, like Japan fights to over one, 3633 03:41:31,760 --> 03:41:35,040 Speaker 1: and there's just like mass inflation and deprivation, and so 3634 03:41:35,080 --> 03:41:38,280 Speaker 1: even though striking is like unbelievably illegal, people do it 3635 03:41:38,280 --> 03:41:41,680 Speaker 1: anyways because the underdative is just starving to death. And 3636 03:41:41,760 --> 03:41:46,240 Speaker 1: so there's this reformist trade union that eventually becomes Japanese 3637 03:41:46,240 --> 03:41:49,360 Speaker 1: Confederation of Labor that swells and numbers to about thirty 3638 03:41:49,360 --> 03:41:51,800 Speaker 1: thousand people, and actually much like thirty thousand people is 3639 03:41:51,879 --> 03:41:55,560 Speaker 1: like it doesn't sound like that big for a union. 3640 03:41:56,040 --> 03:41:57,960 Speaker 1: I think this is the biggest any union is going 3641 03:41:58,000 --> 03:42:00,560 Speaker 1: to get in this period. I think this might get 3642 03:42:00,600 --> 03:42:03,840 Speaker 1: slightly bigger than that, but like, yeah, most of the 3643 03:42:03,920 --> 03:42:08,640 Speaker 1: unions don't crack twenty k because the size of the 3644 03:42:08,760 --> 03:42:11,680 Speaker 1: Japanese industrial working class isn't that big, and also the 3645 03:42:11,720 --> 03:42:15,000 Speaker 1: amount of oppression is unbelievable. But you know, having having 3646 03:42:15,040 --> 03:42:18,920 Speaker 1: thirty people in your union means that your union is 3647 03:42:18,959 --> 03:42:23,280 Speaker 1: now the site of Japanese intra left conflict, which is wonderful. 3648 03:42:26,240 --> 03:42:29,879 Speaker 1: People there is actually like people up, Yeah, it's great. 3649 03:42:30,640 --> 03:42:33,240 Speaker 1: There's like, you know, there's a period where everyone kind 3650 03:42:33,240 --> 03:42:35,560 Speaker 1: of gets along, like like all of there was like 3651 03:42:35,560 --> 03:42:37,640 Speaker 1: everyone of the Japanese Left knows each other, like all 3652 03:42:37,640 --> 03:42:39,840 Speaker 1: they're all dating each other, like if this is true, 3653 03:42:39,879 --> 03:42:41,400 Speaker 1: Like you know, we've been talking about all the interest 3654 03:42:41,480 --> 03:42:42,879 Speaker 1: dating each other, but the Antics and the Communists are 3655 03:42:42,879 --> 03:42:45,240 Speaker 1: all dating each other, like the Reformists are also dating 3656 03:42:45,280 --> 03:42:48,920 Speaker 1: each other. Like they're all sort of like everyone knows 3657 03:42:48,920 --> 03:42:51,360 Speaker 1: each other, and for like a bit they're sort of 3658 03:42:51,360 --> 03:42:56,520 Speaker 1: able to get along all right. But with with with 3659 03:42:56,640 --> 03:43:01,080 Speaker 1: the the Japanese Confederation of Labor. This last for like 3660 03:43:01,240 --> 03:43:05,080 Speaker 1: one year, and the anarchists and the Bolsheviks has split 3661 03:43:05,120 --> 03:43:08,360 Speaker 1: over the question of the USSR. After the Anarchists published 3662 03:43:08,400 --> 03:43:11,320 Speaker 1: like Emma Goldman writing about how it's bad actually, and 3663 03:43:11,360 --> 03:43:14,760 Speaker 1: suddenly these two factions are like, yeah, these actutions are 3664 03:43:14,760 --> 03:43:16,680 Speaker 1: like fighting tooth and nail for control of like the 3665 03:43:16,879 --> 03:43:19,760 Speaker 1: entire left, because like these these groups are like the anarchists, 3666 03:43:19,800 --> 03:43:23,360 Speaker 1: the communists are in every social movement, like they're they're 3667 03:43:23,360 --> 03:43:25,280 Speaker 1: in there in labor, they're in the feminist movements, they're 3668 03:43:25,320 --> 03:43:26,960 Speaker 1: in this movement. They're like we haven't really talked about, 3669 03:43:26,959 --> 03:43:29,080 Speaker 1: but it is going on the background of all of this, 3670 03:43:29,120 --> 03:43:32,920 Speaker 1: which is the burak Kuman liberation movement on the burk 3671 03:43:32,959 --> 03:43:35,640 Speaker 1: Kuman or this like this like hereditary class. I'm pronouncing 3672 03:43:35,640 --> 03:43:39,279 Speaker 1: that extremely badly and I apologize um, but the hereditary 3673 03:43:39,280 --> 03:43:41,200 Speaker 1: class and like the old fuel system, which is like 3674 03:43:41,240 --> 03:43:44,880 Speaker 1: technically abolished in the Lady two hundreds, but like discrimination 3675 03:43:44,879 --> 03:43:48,400 Speaker 1: against them continues. It's it's very similar to like like 3676 03:43:48,440 --> 03:43:52,320 Speaker 1: the untouchable like touchables in India. And so they have 3677 03:43:52,360 --> 03:43:54,560 Speaker 1: this sort of movements and the anarchists back it, and 3678 03:43:54,600 --> 03:43:59,160 Speaker 1: the communists like waffle on it because the Bolsheviks it 3679 03:43:59,200 --> 03:44:01,680 Speaker 1: tastes like a while before they're like no, no, no, 3680 03:44:02,720 --> 03:44:05,440 Speaker 1: We're we're fully backing this now. And so yeah, I 3681 03:44:05,440 --> 03:44:08,080 Speaker 1: mean that gets wrapped up in this this giant battle 3682 03:44:08,160 --> 03:44:10,680 Speaker 1: for the control of the left, and the battle for 3683 03:44:10,680 --> 03:44:12,520 Speaker 1: the control of the left leads to like one of 3684 03:44:12,640 --> 03:44:16,439 Speaker 1: history's most common alliances, which is Bolsheviks allying with reformists 3685 03:44:16,440 --> 03:44:19,640 Speaker 1: who like also favor like centralized control to fight the 3686 03:44:19,680 --> 03:44:24,560 Speaker 1: anarchists who don't want centralized control. Yeah, there there are 3687 03:44:24,600 --> 03:44:30,520 Speaker 1: many new things, yea, in the labor movement. This this 3688 03:44:30,560 --> 03:44:33,600 Speaker 1: plays out in this battle over like where power is 3689 03:44:33,640 --> 03:44:36,080 Speaker 1: supposed to be in a union confederation. So you know, 3690 03:44:36,160 --> 03:44:37,680 Speaker 1: the question basically is it supposed to be in the 3691 03:44:37,720 --> 03:44:40,000 Speaker 1: federation bureaucracy like the people are like the sort of 3692 03:44:40,080 --> 03:44:42,200 Speaker 1: high level of the bureacracy itself, or is it supposed 3693 03:44:42,200 --> 03:44:43,880 Speaker 1: to be in the unions who are like the part 3694 03:44:43,879 --> 03:44:46,640 Speaker 1: of this federation. And and this has real consequences, you know, 3695 03:44:46,760 --> 03:44:49,279 Speaker 1: like it a lot of sort of centralized union federations, 3696 03:44:49,280 --> 03:44:51,160 Speaker 1: like the central union bureacracy that the people who decide 3697 03:44:51,200 --> 03:44:54,560 Speaker 1: if you can strike or not mhm. And you know, 3698 03:44:55,480 --> 03:44:58,200 Speaker 1: this is extremely useful to both reformings bureaucrats who want 3699 03:44:58,200 --> 03:45:00,240 Speaker 1: to make sure nobody goes on strike because have their 3700 03:45:00,240 --> 03:45:02,800 Speaker 1: deal with the capitalists and they don't want to refolution happen. 3701 03:45:02,800 --> 03:45:05,400 Speaker 1: And it's also very useful for the Bolsheviks who want 3702 03:45:05,440 --> 03:45:07,000 Speaker 1: to make sure they can purge anyone who they don't 3703 03:45:07,040 --> 03:45:09,119 Speaker 1: like and also want to make sure. The Union movement 3704 03:45:09,160 --> 03:45:12,000 Speaker 1: is just like an extension of their politics. And so 3705 03:45:12,080 --> 03:45:14,800 Speaker 1: there's this huge battle and it ends with basically like 3706 03:45:15,240 --> 03:45:19,400 Speaker 1: both the Bolsheviks and the reformists pull out of the Union. Whoa, 3707 03:45:19,440 --> 03:45:23,880 Speaker 1: so the anarchists win. Oh yes, sort of, well they victory. 3708 03:45:23,959 --> 03:45:26,879 Speaker 1: There's nothing. Yeah, well it's not. There's nothing. So like 3709 03:45:26,920 --> 03:45:30,400 Speaker 1: twenty thou members go with the reformists, like twelve thousand 3710 03:45:30,480 --> 03:45:32,760 Speaker 1: go with the Bolsheviks, about eight thousand go with the anarchists. 3711 03:45:34,879 --> 03:45:38,600 Speaker 1: So it's not the best, but they rebuild and and 3712 03:45:38,840 --> 03:45:44,080 Speaker 1: into this phrase steps arguably Japan's greatest anarchist theorists of 3713 03:45:44,360 --> 03:45:48,800 Speaker 1: this period, Hottest Shoes. Oh and this guy is a character, 3714 03:45:49,000 --> 03:45:51,600 Speaker 1: like he's he's he's barely known in Japan. I mean 3715 03:45:52,080 --> 03:45:54,680 Speaker 1: there was a sort of like renaissance in how to 3716 03:45:54,720 --> 03:45:57,480 Speaker 1: shoeso scholarship when this one guy named John Krupp wrote 3717 03:45:57,520 --> 03:46:00,360 Speaker 1: this book called Hottes SHOESO How does Shoes? In Pure 3718 03:46:00,400 --> 03:46:03,000 Speaker 1: Anarchism and into Wards Japan, which is a mouthful of 3719 03:46:03,040 --> 03:46:04,680 Speaker 1: a title, But I'm just gonna keep plugging this because 3720 03:46:04,720 --> 03:46:06,160 Speaker 1: like this is the book that made me an anarchist. 3721 03:46:06,840 --> 03:46:08,280 Speaker 1: Like this is like I checked this book out from 3722 03:46:08,280 --> 03:46:09,640 Speaker 1: my library and I read it and I was like, 3723 03:46:09,680 --> 03:46:16,240 Speaker 1: oh my god, I'm an anarchist now. So yeah, he 3724 03:46:16,480 --> 03:46:18,840 Speaker 1: has he has like A because she has a wild story. 3725 03:46:18,959 --> 03:46:22,039 Speaker 1: Um he's born in He's born in Japan in December 3726 03:46:22,920 --> 03:46:25,480 Speaker 1: six and he sort of like bounces around like different 3727 03:46:25,520 --> 03:46:28,640 Speaker 1: manual labor jobs in Tokyo, and like at one point 3728 03:46:29,160 --> 03:46:31,800 Speaker 1: he wants to be like A. He tries to be 3729 03:46:31,800 --> 03:46:33,920 Speaker 1: like I don't know if it's long trou he wants 3730 03:46:33,920 --> 03:46:36,120 Speaker 1: to be like a sailor. So he gets on a 3731 03:46:36,160 --> 03:46:37,600 Speaker 1: boat and he's going to be a sailor and then 3732 03:46:37,920 --> 03:46:41,440 Speaker 1: he after like one sale ride to Taiwan, he immediately 3733 03:46:41,480 --> 03:46:43,039 Speaker 1: decides he doesn't want to be a sailor anymore. So 3734 03:46:43,080 --> 03:46:44,520 Speaker 1: he just gets off the boat and leaves and doesn't 3735 03:46:44,560 --> 03:46:46,240 Speaker 1: come back. I feel like that's what I would do 3736 03:46:46,240 --> 03:46:50,520 Speaker 1: if I decided, Oh yeah, like that job, especially like 3737 03:46:50,560 --> 03:46:53,760 Speaker 1: the nineteen like twenties, that jobs, he's awful. Yeah, You're like, 3738 03:46:53,959 --> 03:46:56,119 Speaker 1: I want adventure, and then you're like, oh, adventure means 3739 03:46:56,120 --> 03:47:00,960 Speaker 1: bad things happen. It's like maybe I I I guess 3740 03:47:01,000 --> 03:47:03,120 Speaker 1: I understand why all these people are anarchists, because like 3741 03:47:03,680 --> 03:47:09,720 Speaker 1: that is a terrible job. But yeah, so she's so 3742 03:47:09,800 --> 03:47:12,520 Speaker 1: winds up sort of just like wandering around Taiwan. And 3743 03:47:12,760 --> 03:47:14,600 Speaker 1: one of the things that happens when he's wanting aroun Taiwan, 3744 03:47:14,640 --> 03:47:16,680 Speaker 1: by the way, is a Japanese colony at this point, 3745 03:47:16,840 --> 03:47:20,120 Speaker 1: um okay. And while he's wandering around Taiwan, he becomes 3746 03:47:20,120 --> 03:47:22,600 Speaker 1: a Christian and he like goes to school, it's like 3747 03:47:22,640 --> 03:47:25,000 Speaker 1: a theologian, but he drops out, but then he somehow 3748 03:47:25,200 --> 03:47:28,920 Speaker 1: still becomes a pastor because I don't know, this guy's 3749 03:47:28,959 --> 03:47:32,880 Speaker 1: career is wild. No, she's always not like a noble pastor. 3750 03:47:33,080 --> 03:47:36,040 Speaker 1: He rapidly starts pissing off like everyone around him because 3751 03:47:36,200 --> 03:47:39,080 Speaker 1: he's like every All of his sermons are just him 3752 03:47:39,120 --> 03:47:41,800 Speaker 1: and taggetizing rich people and preaching this like very very 3753 03:47:41,879 --> 03:47:46,119 Speaker 1: left we rided in the Gospel. Read the Bible. Yeah, yeah, 3754 03:47:46,760 --> 03:47:50,640 Speaker 1: it's incredible that this is a great quote from Howdaeschizo 3755 03:47:50,720 --> 03:47:53,000 Speaker 1: and pierre anarchists into war Japan about this time as 3756 03:47:53,000 --> 03:47:54,920 Speaker 1: a pastor from like someone who was there, it was 3757 03:47:55,800 --> 03:47:58,320 Speaker 1: Pastor Howes. His sermons were superbs, so much so that 3758 03:47:58,400 --> 03:48:00,480 Speaker 1: I thought it was a shame that more people we're 3759 03:48:00,520 --> 03:48:02,760 Speaker 1: not there to hear them. It was like the Bible 3760 03:48:02,879 --> 03:48:05,160 Speaker 1: talking in the spirit of pure socialism. And one of 3761 03:48:05,280 --> 03:48:07,720 Speaker 1: my friends admired pastor hates so much to the assid 3762 03:48:07,800 --> 03:48:14,480 Speaker 1: to celebrate his marriage. Yeah, and you know this like 3763 03:48:15,360 --> 03:48:18,120 Speaker 1: this does not go around. Yeah yeah, he say, Well, 3764 03:48:18,120 --> 03:48:20,400 Speaker 1: it's funny because he starts like as a Christian, right, 3765 03:48:20,440 --> 03:48:23,040 Speaker 1: but like he just like progressively keeps getting more and 3766 03:48:23,120 --> 03:48:26,320 Speaker 1: more left wing and keeps realizing that like okay, so 3767 03:48:26,400 --> 03:48:28,800 Speaker 1: there's the Kingdom of God in heaven, right, but like 3768 03:48:28,920 --> 03:48:32,800 Speaker 1: what if we did that here? And like as he's 3769 03:48:32,840 --> 03:48:34,800 Speaker 1: getting like as he's pissing off more of the church, 3770 03:48:35,560 --> 03:48:38,640 Speaker 1: um and as like they're they're they're in fighting, gets bigger, 3771 03:48:38,680 --> 03:48:40,680 Speaker 1: he's becoming just more and more of an anarchist. And 3772 03:48:40,760 --> 03:48:42,840 Speaker 1: by the end he just like gets up, he gets 3773 03:48:42,840 --> 03:48:44,960 Speaker 1: booted out by his church and he's just like okay, 3774 03:48:44,959 --> 03:48:47,480 Speaker 1: I'm an anarchist propagandist now, and soo he just like 3775 03:48:47,600 --> 03:48:51,440 Speaker 1: leaves and he's like, well, I'm anarchist now. Um and 3776 03:48:51,640 --> 03:48:54,680 Speaker 1: Shizo becomes what's known as a pure anarchist. And this 3777 03:48:54,840 --> 03:48:57,640 Speaker 1: is something that is like entirely unique to Japan that 3778 03:48:57,760 --> 03:49:00,360 Speaker 1: like there there's nothing there's this doesn't exist anywhere else, um, 3779 03:49:01,160 --> 03:49:03,960 Speaker 1: and this is different than like like basically every other anarchist, 3780 03:49:04,000 --> 03:49:06,480 Speaker 1: theorist and movement in Japan util this point has been 3781 03:49:06,560 --> 03:49:09,240 Speaker 1: like something you can find parallels with other anarchist movements 3782 03:49:09,240 --> 03:49:11,560 Speaker 1: around the globe, Like there are nihilists and lots of 3783 03:49:11,600 --> 03:49:14,720 Speaker 1: countries as egoists everywhere, like their cynicalists literally in every 3784 03:49:14,760 --> 03:49:18,360 Speaker 1: country has ever existed, and they mostly sort of believe 3785 03:49:18,400 --> 03:49:20,240 Speaker 1: the same things. Um, you know, you get some like 3786 03:49:21,320 --> 03:49:25,280 Speaker 1: like oh us Kai is like combination of egoism and 3787 03:49:25,320 --> 03:49:27,600 Speaker 1: syndicalism is like it's cool, but like just I like 3788 03:49:27,720 --> 03:49:30,080 Speaker 1: that idea. Yeah, yeah, it's a good idea, but it's 3789 03:49:30,200 --> 03:49:32,800 Speaker 1: also not like it's like he's not's not like he's 3790 03:49:32,840 --> 03:49:34,840 Speaker 1: not the first person to ever do this right, And 3791 03:49:35,000 --> 03:49:37,320 Speaker 1: like the Japanese synicalist movement is built in the mold 3792 03:49:37,600 --> 03:49:40,360 Speaker 1: of like the French syndicalists in the CGT, which is 3793 03:49:40,400 --> 03:49:43,200 Speaker 1: this big union. Uh actually they're still around today there 3794 03:49:44,320 --> 03:49:46,440 Speaker 1: so in like the very early eighteen hundreds they were there, 3795 03:49:46,520 --> 03:49:48,400 Speaker 1: they were sort of Anarcoisy Nicolas Union and like like 3796 03:49:48,640 --> 03:49:50,920 Speaker 1: you know six they have this famous charter about like anarchists, 3797 03:49:50,960 --> 03:49:53,280 Speaker 1: but then they go reformist and they like they vote 3798 03:49:53,280 --> 03:49:55,600 Speaker 1: for World War were one and now they're famous for 3799 03:49:56,400 --> 03:49:58,920 Speaker 1: there's been like twelve things that probably could have been 3800 03:49:58,920 --> 03:50:01,280 Speaker 1: a revolution in France if the CGT had ever a 3801 03:50:01,320 --> 03:50:03,160 Speaker 1: single time went to the barricades. And they never do. 3802 03:50:04,680 --> 03:50:07,120 Speaker 1: Wh's never ever, that's like their whole thing, like like 3803 03:50:07,520 --> 03:50:10,640 Speaker 1: they set out by sixty eight, like that's the rest 3804 03:50:10,680 --> 03:50:14,520 Speaker 1: of Yeah, this is the union. Yeah yeah, and they 3805 03:50:14,560 --> 03:50:17,000 Speaker 1: set out by sixty eight. It's like it's incredible, but 3806 03:50:17,120 --> 03:50:19,440 Speaker 1: you know it's the But you know, in like ninety 3807 03:50:19,480 --> 03:50:21,760 Speaker 1: know six, right, the Japanese are looking at like cynical, 3808 03:50:21,880 --> 03:50:23,520 Speaker 1: looking at this like oh my god, this just this 3809 03:50:23,880 --> 03:50:26,320 Speaker 1: union has like millions of people in it, like it's enormous. 3810 03:50:26,320 --> 03:50:30,800 Speaker 1: It's a cynicals union. Yeah yeah, And like you know 3811 03:50:31,000 --> 03:50:34,640 Speaker 1: they they the Jeman's anarchists do is sort of their 3812 03:50:34,680 --> 03:50:37,400 Speaker 1: standard cynicalist things like that they're building up democratic unions. 3813 03:50:37,480 --> 03:50:39,560 Speaker 1: They're like working cords in general strike the season means 3814 03:50:39,560 --> 03:50:42,000 Speaker 1: their production. They're like fighting for a society or production 3815 03:50:42,040 --> 03:50:45,280 Speaker 1: is run by workers themselves. Blah blah blah blah, I 3816 03:50:45,320 --> 03:50:47,480 Speaker 1: shouldn't blah blah blah blah. That's actually it's it's cool, 3817 03:50:47,560 --> 03:50:52,040 Speaker 1: it's fine, but pure anarchism is not that I'm dying 3818 03:50:52,120 --> 03:50:55,400 Speaker 1: to know what pure anarchism is. This new anarchism just dropped. 3819 03:50:55,400 --> 03:50:59,120 Speaker 1: I'm excited. It's it's kind of a it's it's a 3820 03:50:59,160 --> 03:51:03,200 Speaker 1: version of whocomunism. But like what if you like really 3821 03:51:03,400 --> 03:51:07,120 Speaker 1: really rigorously applied in arco communism and and this is 3822 03:51:07,360 --> 03:51:09,520 Speaker 1: this is the thing. It doesn't exist anywhere else because everywhere, 3823 03:51:09,640 --> 03:51:12,480 Speaker 1: like in the West and in Latin America, like syndicalism 3824 03:51:12,520 --> 03:51:15,600 Speaker 1: and anarchist and anarcho communism just like fuse to the 3825 03:51:15,640 --> 03:51:17,280 Speaker 1: point where like they're not really they're like but there's 3826 03:51:17,280 --> 03:51:19,280 Speaker 1: not really they're not really separate tendency, like nobody's written 3827 03:51:19,280 --> 03:51:21,960 Speaker 1: in an arco communist theory, and like a hundred years 3828 03:51:23,280 --> 03:51:26,600 Speaker 1: like like they started, you know, they've basically ceased to 3829 03:51:26,640 --> 03:51:31,320 Speaker 1: be separate tendencies. But in Japan, the cyndicalists of the 3830 03:51:31,360 --> 03:51:34,480 Speaker 1: and comps like fighting it out to the death. And 3831 03:51:34,680 --> 03:51:38,280 Speaker 1: if this this produces pure anarchism and it rules can 3832 03:51:38,440 --> 03:51:41,040 Speaker 1: talk about what it is because it's both wonderful and 3833 03:51:41,120 --> 03:51:45,240 Speaker 1: incredibly silly at the same time. So okay, so to 3834 03:51:45,560 --> 03:51:48,520 Speaker 1: understand what they're arguing about, because this is this is 3835 03:51:48,640 --> 03:51:51,880 Speaker 1: this this causes like a huge fracture in the annex movements. Um, 3836 03:51:52,480 --> 03:51:54,320 Speaker 1: I think we need to sort of like go into 3837 03:51:54,400 --> 03:51:57,960 Speaker 1: like the vulgar bark disconception of class structure that's kind 3838 03:51:58,040 --> 03:52:01,000 Speaker 1: of shared by the syndicalists. Okay, So okay, okay, so 3839 03:52:01,120 --> 03:52:04,360 Speaker 1: you're you're okay. The important thing about this is that, 3840 03:52:04,480 --> 03:52:06,600 Speaker 1: like this doesn't work at Japan, like the the vulgar 3841 03:52:06,680 --> 03:52:09,840 Speaker 1: theory of like Marcus class structure, right, is that like, okay, 3842 03:52:09,840 --> 03:52:12,640 Speaker 1: so you're supposed to have the great industrial proletariat, Like 3843 03:52:12,720 --> 03:52:14,440 Speaker 1: it's that's supposed to become a majority of the population. 3844 03:52:14,480 --> 03:52:16,440 Speaker 1: It's supposed to be unified and organized by like the 3845 03:52:16,480 --> 03:52:19,200 Speaker 1: discipline of the factory system, and the entire world is 3846 03:52:19,240 --> 03:52:22,080 Speaker 1: supposed to reduce to two classes like the boors, the borgewisi, 3847 03:52:22,120 --> 03:52:24,960 Speaker 1: and the proletariat, like one class of people who have 3848 03:52:25,040 --> 03:52:26,960 Speaker 1: nothing to sell but their labor. One class of people 3849 03:52:27,040 --> 03:52:32,240 Speaker 1: who exist purely too like extract wealth from people because 3850 03:52:32,280 --> 03:52:34,200 Speaker 1: like you, who you entirely supportless on my owning things. 3851 03:52:35,200 --> 03:52:37,040 Speaker 1: And you know, eventually these are supposed to, like if 3852 03:52:37,040 --> 03:52:39,160 Speaker 1: you if you read your communist manifesto, Eventually these two 3853 03:52:39,160 --> 03:52:41,120 Speaker 1: classes are supposed to like meet themselves in like a 3854 03:52:41,160 --> 03:52:47,640 Speaker 1: final conflict or the proletariat defeats it's called yeah, yeah, yeah, 3855 03:52:48,320 --> 03:52:50,480 Speaker 1: and you know, the propitiy defeats them, and then they 3856 03:52:50,640 --> 03:52:53,320 Speaker 1: abolished the conditions of their own existence as a class 3857 03:52:53,600 --> 03:52:56,000 Speaker 1: and you get stateless class list butey in this society, 3858 03:52:56,200 --> 03:52:58,120 Speaker 1: it's like a free association of workers. And this is 3859 03:52:58,160 --> 03:53:04,760 Speaker 1: what communism is. And famously this never happened. Yeah, and 3860 03:53:05,040 --> 03:53:09,720 Speaker 1: about what about the immortal science. Yeah, you know the well, 3861 03:53:09,720 --> 03:53:12,200 Speaker 1: the w the wortal science. Yeah, this, this is the 3862 03:53:12,400 --> 03:53:14,040 Speaker 1: This is the problem with the immortal science is that one, 3863 03:53:14,120 --> 03:53:17,000 Speaker 1: instead of unifying the industrial politariat, capitalism like divides it 3864 03:53:17,680 --> 03:53:20,200 Speaker 1: and just sort of like like literally spatially like kicks 3865 03:53:20,240 --> 03:53:22,000 Speaker 1: them into suburbs. And you can get this sort of 3866 03:53:22,120 --> 03:53:25,200 Speaker 1: like the system where instead of like unifying everyone into 3867 03:53:25,280 --> 03:53:28,360 Speaker 1: one class, everyone is now just like completely alienated, like 3868 03:53:28,400 --> 03:53:30,640 Speaker 1: boomer living in a suburb, even if it's still work 3869 03:53:30,680 --> 03:53:34,080 Speaker 1: in a factory. And the other problem is that there's 3870 03:53:34,120 --> 03:53:38,680 Speaker 1: never just two classes. And this is the problem that like, yeah, 3871 03:53:39,080 --> 03:53:42,000 Speaker 1: all the other ones are our enemies. Yeah, this worried too, 3872 03:53:42,360 --> 03:53:43,760 Speaker 1: you know, but this is a real problem, right because 3873 03:53:43,760 --> 03:53:45,720 Speaker 1: like the Marxist running to this in Russia where it's 3874 03:53:45,720 --> 03:53:48,640 Speaker 1: like okay, so we we did our thing, we did 3875 03:53:48,640 --> 03:53:51,040 Speaker 1: our urban poultry revolution. But like there's all these peasants 3876 03:53:51,720 --> 03:53:53,640 Speaker 1: and they don't like us because we keep taking their 3877 03:53:53,680 --> 03:53:57,320 Speaker 1: granted gunpoint and but but you know that you have, 3878 03:53:57,520 --> 03:54:01,880 Speaker 1: you have this one problem and popular, yeah, it goes great, 3879 03:54:02,000 --> 03:54:04,720 Speaker 1: right if not nothing bad ever happens, they don't famously 3880 03:54:04,760 --> 03:54:06,960 Speaker 1: have to kill enormous members of these people. But then 3881 03:54:07,080 --> 03:54:10,120 Speaker 1: like you know, there's something weird happens, which is in China, 3882 03:54:10,600 --> 03:54:14,360 Speaker 1: u Stalin managed to get like the entire or like 3883 03:54:14,400 --> 03:54:17,360 Speaker 1: the entire urban Chinese working class like builitic working class killed, 3884 03:54:17,720 --> 03:54:20,080 Speaker 1: and so Mao has to like make a revolution with peasants, 3885 03:54:21,360 --> 03:54:23,000 Speaker 1: and so you know, peasants become the sort of like 3886 03:54:24,320 --> 03:54:26,040 Speaker 1: you know, this this sort of like this, this is 3887 03:54:26,080 --> 03:54:28,480 Speaker 1: what the actual refolution stutuct of communism wants up being, 3888 03:54:28,600 --> 03:54:31,160 Speaker 1: like from like China, Columbia. It's these peasants. But like 3889 03:54:31,840 --> 03:54:34,000 Speaker 1: you know, okay, so your your theory of the industrial 3890 03:54:34,000 --> 03:54:36,080 Speaker 1: politariats already down the toilet. And this is what Shuzo 3891 03:54:36,240 --> 03:54:39,080 Speaker 1: is reacting to. Like he looks at Japanese society and 3892 03:54:39,240 --> 03:54:43,280 Speaker 1: there's like five people who you wage labor. Mostly there's 3893 03:54:43,360 --> 03:54:47,120 Speaker 1: this enormous like fourteen million people who are tenant farmers 3894 03:54:47,760 --> 03:54:49,400 Speaker 1: who are like trying to support their families and these 3895 03:54:49,440 --> 03:54:52,400 Speaker 1: like tiny plots of rented land. But you know, and 3896 03:54:52,600 --> 03:54:54,680 Speaker 1: like in center Marxis theories, like well, okay, these people 3897 03:54:54,680 --> 03:54:58,360 Speaker 1: will inevitably be absorbed into capitalism, right, but they will 3898 03:54:58,360 --> 03:55:01,200 Speaker 1: be driven by competition or whatever to the market. But 3899 03:55:01,240 --> 03:55:03,040 Speaker 1: like they're not, it's not happening. They're just they're sitting 3900 03:55:03,080 --> 03:55:05,360 Speaker 1: there and they're still just really poor in paying their landlords. 3901 03:55:05,760 --> 03:55:09,480 Speaker 1: And yeah, yeah, well you just gotta wait for all 3902 03:55:09,520 --> 03:55:14,920 Speaker 1: of Japan to be like annihilated. Yeah yeah, yeah, it's 3903 03:55:14,960 --> 03:55:16,520 Speaker 1: it's it's it's going great. But and it's also like 3904 03:55:16,520 --> 03:55:18,560 Speaker 1: there's all these other like classes to you, Like there's 3905 03:55:18,640 --> 03:55:21,600 Speaker 1: there's these classes of like there's just like petty traders 3906 03:55:21,680 --> 03:55:23,800 Speaker 1: for example, or like the like low level like really 3907 03:55:23,840 --> 03:55:27,000 Speaker 1: low level government officials like like you know, you're like 3908 03:55:27,240 --> 03:55:31,360 Speaker 1: like a clerk for example, who just don't fit into 3909 03:55:31,440 --> 03:55:33,600 Speaker 1: this sort of class scheme at all, Like if it 3910 03:55:33,720 --> 03:55:36,400 Speaker 1: marks some things about like like small like I don't know, 3911 03:55:36,520 --> 03:55:39,200 Speaker 1: people who like cut wood and then go into a 3912 03:55:39,280 --> 03:55:41,160 Speaker 1: town and sell it, like they're like, well, there's these 3913 03:55:41,160 --> 03:55:43,960 Speaker 1: people are petit bourgeois like their reactionaries blah blah, And 3914 03:55:44,000 --> 03:55:47,160 Speaker 1: there's this whole history of like anarchists organizing people like 3915 03:55:47,240 --> 03:55:48,960 Speaker 1: this who marks just sort of like steer At, Like 3916 03:55:49,200 --> 03:55:53,480 Speaker 1: Bolivia has this where like anarchists organized these like these 3917 03:55:53,520 --> 03:55:56,600 Speaker 1: indigenous like like they're not really these indigenous artisans whose 3918 03:55:56,600 --> 03:55:58,400 Speaker 1: things like they go to market and they saw their craft. 3919 03:55:58,480 --> 03:56:00,240 Speaker 1: And the Marxists were just like a, why do we 3920 03:56:00,280 --> 03:56:04,560 Speaker 1: care about the people? Like why yeah, workers, And it 3921 03:56:04,600 --> 03:56:06,400 Speaker 1: always seems like the better I don't know, whenever I 3922 03:56:06,520 --> 03:56:09,080 Speaker 1: was presented with the basic analysis of like, okay, we've 3923 03:56:09,120 --> 03:56:11,920 Speaker 1: got the proletariat who have terrible lives and factories, and 3924 03:56:12,000 --> 03:56:14,480 Speaker 1: then you have the lump and proletariat who refuse that 3925 03:56:14,560 --> 03:56:16,360 Speaker 1: kind of work and are like beggars and thieves and 3926 03:56:17,680 --> 03:56:21,080 Speaker 1: people doing work outside of the traditional system or whatever. 3927 03:56:21,480 --> 03:56:23,360 Speaker 1: And then you have the petty bourgeoisie who are like 3928 03:56:23,560 --> 03:56:26,240 Speaker 1: you know, owned stores or artisans or whatever. And then 3929 03:56:26,280 --> 03:56:28,680 Speaker 1: you have the bourgeoisie over it. And it is always 3930 03:56:28,720 --> 03:56:30,640 Speaker 1: funny to me because I look at I'm like, well, clearly, 3931 03:56:31,040 --> 03:56:32,800 Speaker 1: the only ones that would be worth being would be 3932 03:56:32,880 --> 03:56:36,080 Speaker 1: lumping proletariat or pett like they're the only ones to 3933 03:56:36,120 --> 03:56:39,320 Speaker 1: get to have any fun Like, yeah, you know, and 3934 03:56:39,640 --> 03:56:42,400 Speaker 1: I think like like that this is a problem that 3935 03:56:42,600 --> 03:56:46,080 Speaker 1: that chooso sees. And I'm gonna read part of um 3936 03:56:47,080 --> 03:56:49,400 Speaker 1: Krupt's book about his solution to this because I think 3937 03:56:49,400 --> 03:56:52,880 Speaker 1: it's really interesting. Um. Given the failure of the available 3938 03:56:52,960 --> 03:56:55,640 Speaker 1: methods of class analysis to capture the subtleties of Japan's 3939 03:56:55,680 --> 03:56:59,080 Speaker 1: social structure, how To developed the notion of the propertyless 3940 03:56:59,200 --> 03:57:02,200 Speaker 1: masses as an alternative concept of the proletariat. That the 3941 03:57:02,280 --> 03:57:06,360 Speaker 1: propertyless masses was a wide ranching term which encompassed tenant farmers, 3942 03:57:06,440 --> 03:57:10,240 Speaker 1: small traders, petty officials, artisans, and even wage laborers when 3943 03:57:10,280 --> 03:57:13,520 Speaker 1: they are prepared to forsake their preoccupation with narrowly defending 3944 03:57:13,600 --> 03:57:17,240 Speaker 1: advantages that accompanied their urban lifestyle and we're ready to 3945 03:57:17,360 --> 03:57:20,840 Speaker 1: throw in their lot with the other oppressed strata. Yeah, 3946 03:57:20,880 --> 03:57:23,320 Speaker 1: that makes sense. That's just you know, it's the like 3947 03:57:24,360 --> 03:57:26,160 Speaker 1: or just the haves and have nots. It's like, okay, 3948 03:57:26,280 --> 03:57:28,920 Speaker 1: well it's it's kind of but but there's there's a 3949 03:57:28,960 --> 03:57:33,440 Speaker 1: crucial difference here, which is that like, okay, so the 3950 03:57:34,040 --> 03:57:36,240 Speaker 1: other like the really big thing about the pure anarchist 3951 03:57:36,280 --> 03:57:40,040 Speaker 1: that they don't believe in class struggle, Okay, and The 3952 03:57:40,160 --> 03:57:42,640 Speaker 1: reason why they don't believe in class struggle is that 3953 03:57:42,720 --> 03:57:46,040 Speaker 1: they think that, Okay, so they look at the history 3954 03:57:46,040 --> 03:57:47,920 Speaker 1: of the union movement, right, and it's like, okay, so 3955 03:57:48,360 --> 03:57:50,960 Speaker 1: has the union movement ended capitalism? It's like no, So 3956 03:57:51,080 --> 03:57:52,920 Speaker 1: like okay, what what does it actually do? And the 3957 03:57:52,920 --> 03:57:55,360 Speaker 1: answer is it gets people slightly more money under capitalism, 3958 03:57:55,640 --> 03:57:58,400 Speaker 1: which is nice too, Yeah, which which is nice. But 3959 03:57:58,440 --> 03:58:00,760 Speaker 1: it's also like choose a like adopted tub that there's 3960 03:58:00,760 --> 03:58:02,880 Speaker 1: no other Japanese anarchists who who has this beta for 3961 03:58:03,240 --> 03:58:06,040 Speaker 1: It's like he he compares it to like people fighting 3962 03:58:06,080 --> 03:58:09,640 Speaker 1: inside of like a bandit king, where it's like, okay, 3963 03:58:09,760 --> 03:58:11,280 Speaker 1: so if you have you have like fight, like the 3964 03:58:11,480 --> 03:58:13,800 Speaker 1: bosses of the bandit gang are obviously exploiting like the 3965 03:58:14,120 --> 03:58:17,600 Speaker 1: lower level people in the bandit gang. But you know, 3966 03:58:17,760 --> 03:58:20,280 Speaker 1: I even even if even if the lower level people 3967 03:58:20,280 --> 03:58:22,160 Speaker 1: in this bandit gang like take over, they're not actually 3968 03:58:22,200 --> 03:58:24,240 Speaker 1: gonna stop being a bandit gang, right, It's just that 3969 03:58:24,360 --> 03:58:27,120 Speaker 1: the the distribution of where the bandit gang wealth is 3970 03:58:27,160 --> 03:58:30,200 Speaker 1: going changes. And this is a big thing for for 3971 03:58:30,440 --> 03:58:33,520 Speaker 1: for the puranicist because the pior anarchists are you know, 3972 03:58:33,560 --> 03:58:35,560 Speaker 1: they're they're looking at the industrial working classes like this 3973 03:58:35,680 --> 03:58:38,280 Speaker 1: is tiny and they're they're all exploiting in the countryside 3974 03:58:39,080 --> 03:58:42,400 Speaker 1: m hm. And so because of that, like they they 3975 03:58:42,480 --> 03:58:44,840 Speaker 1: look at this, they look at the the union movement, 3976 03:58:44,880 --> 03:58:47,240 Speaker 1: and they look at it at like class struggle, like 3977 03:58:47,280 --> 03:58:49,920 Speaker 1: classical TM like class struggle, and they're like, well, this 3978 03:58:49,960 --> 03:58:52,440 Speaker 1: doesn't cause a revolution. All this does is just like 3979 03:58:53,600 --> 03:58:57,080 Speaker 1: sort of reorients like who's in power inside of Uh 3980 03:58:57,640 --> 03:59:00,520 Speaker 1: that's what the Bolsheviks did, right, Yeah, But but it's 3981 03:59:00,520 --> 03:59:01,840 Speaker 1: it's not just what the bulls so they paily this 3982 03:59:01,880 --> 03:59:04,280 Speaker 1: is the Bolsheviks. But like it's also like there's analysis 3983 03:59:04,320 --> 03:59:05,880 Speaker 1: of what a union is is that you're like class 3984 03:59:05,880 --> 03:59:09,480 Speaker 1: struggles just defending your position under capitalism, but you're also 3985 03:59:09,560 --> 03:59:12,160 Speaker 1: fighting very specifically narrowly for your class. Right, So if 3986 03:59:12,200 --> 03:59:14,960 Speaker 1: you're like a factory worker, right, you're fighting for you 3987 03:59:15,240 --> 03:59:17,240 Speaker 1: and the other factory workers. You're not fighting for like 3988 03:59:17,520 --> 03:59:19,120 Speaker 1: I don't know, like a tenant farmer. You're not you know, 3989 03:59:19,200 --> 03:59:21,360 Speaker 1: even fighting from like for like the guy down the 3990 03:59:21,400 --> 03:59:24,560 Speaker 1: tree to Bate's bread. It's like you're you know, the 3991 03:59:24,800 --> 03:59:26,720 Speaker 1: these these things that are like that are but they 3992 03:59:26,760 --> 03:59:29,360 Speaker 1: look like instruments of class struggles, like your workers council, 3993 03:59:29,480 --> 03:59:33,120 Speaker 1: your unions, your Soviets, Like they don't actually get rid 3994 03:59:33,120 --> 03:59:36,240 Speaker 1: of class. It's just now another class has power, and 3995 03:59:36,320 --> 03:59:38,560 Speaker 1: it doesn't matter if it's sort of like this is 3996 03:59:38,600 --> 03:59:40,120 Speaker 1: what they're arguing, is like, it doesn't matter if it's 3997 03:59:40,160 --> 03:59:42,840 Speaker 1: like democratic, It doesn't matter if it's like you know, 3998 03:59:43,040 --> 03:59:45,440 Speaker 1: like there there there's no difference in how the actual 3999 03:59:45,720 --> 03:59:48,200 Speaker 1: eventually the class and amics will play out. It doesn't 4000 03:59:48,200 --> 03:59:50,920 Speaker 1: matter if it's like you know, like Lenin making like 4001 03:59:51,000 --> 03:59:53,400 Speaker 1: Stalin making himself dictator, or you have a bunch of 4002 03:59:53,440 --> 03:59:56,920 Speaker 1: democratic like Soviets, because they're both so instruments class power. 4003 03:59:56,920 --> 03:59:59,680 Speaker 1: They're both sort of just going to reproduce this, this 4004 03:59:59,760 --> 04:00:04,560 Speaker 1: whole system. And yeah, and so they have this thing 4005 04:00:04,600 --> 04:00:08,880 Speaker 1: that they counterposed, which is like class struggle is just 4006 04:00:08,960 --> 04:00:10,920 Speaker 1: about what stuff is happening inside the system. But that's 4007 04:00:10,920 --> 04:00:13,440 Speaker 1: different revolution, which is like destroying this the system entirely. 4008 04:00:13,520 --> 04:00:16,200 Speaker 1: And this is where you get into his stuff about 4009 04:00:16,200 --> 04:00:19,120 Speaker 1: the division of labor, which is I think it's really 4010 04:00:19,160 --> 04:00:23,240 Speaker 1: interesting because it I think this this sphere of pure 4011 04:00:23,240 --> 04:00:26,840 Speaker 1: anarchism got to a bunch of critiques of stuff that 4012 04:00:27,000 --> 04:00:28,640 Speaker 1: people have gotten to now, but they got to it 4013 04:00:28,760 --> 04:00:32,880 Speaker 1: in where Okay, so she's always like one of his 4014 04:00:32,960 --> 04:00:35,080 Speaker 1: big things is that like the division of labor is 4015 04:00:35,120 --> 04:00:38,720 Speaker 1: inherently exploitative because it like it destroys sort of rural 4016 04:00:38,760 --> 04:00:41,000 Speaker 1: community living and it replaces it with the centralization of 4017 04:00:41,040 --> 04:00:44,160 Speaker 1: expertise and the central relation of power. And he also 4018 04:00:44,240 --> 04:00:47,040 Speaker 1: thinks that like science is like a capitalist engine that's 4019 04:00:47,120 --> 04:00:50,120 Speaker 1: used to like create the division of labor, and then 4020 04:00:50,400 --> 04:00:53,040 Speaker 1: it's used to create like mechanization, and it's used to 4021 04:00:53,080 --> 04:00:56,360 Speaker 1: create like labor exploitation. Yeah, that's that sounds like modern. 4022 04:00:56,520 --> 04:01:00,520 Speaker 1: A lot of like stuff that I read more modern. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 4023 04:01:00,520 --> 04:01:02,560 Speaker 1: except this is like they're doing this in like like 4024 04:01:02,760 --> 04:01:07,560 Speaker 1: nineteen twenties seven. Ye else is a capitalist engine of 4025 04:01:07,680 --> 04:01:15,320 Speaker 1: exploitation products and surfaces the podcast industrial complex. It's true, 4026 04:01:16,920 --> 04:01:20,920 Speaker 1: and we're back with more things that are exploitative and 4027 04:01:21,320 --> 04:01:26,240 Speaker 1: the theoretically theoretically yes, yes, but we we we we 4028 04:01:26,440 --> 04:01:27,520 Speaker 1: have we have to get through. We have to get 4029 04:01:27,520 --> 04:01:29,320 Speaker 1: through the last exploitative thing, which is the thing. I 4030 04:01:29,400 --> 04:01:32,680 Speaker 1: talked a bit about this earlier, but like the Puranicists 4031 04:01:32,760 --> 04:01:36,320 Speaker 1: argued that like cities inherently are this concentration of wealthy 4032 04:01:36,360 --> 04:01:41,000 Speaker 1: resources and power, and so like farmers and workers need 4033 04:01:41,080 --> 04:01:44,120 Speaker 1: to work together to destroy all forms of power, including cities. 4034 04:01:45,320 --> 04:01:49,600 Speaker 1: And this sounds a lot like primitive, is yeah, it does, 4035 04:01:49,840 --> 04:01:53,000 Speaker 1: although you know they wouldn't necessarily be like repping the farmers. 4036 04:01:53,200 --> 04:01:55,480 Speaker 1: And I think I think primitives might be the wrong term. 4037 04:01:55,520 --> 04:01:57,880 Speaker 1: But it's definitely a lot of like the anti tech stuff. 4038 04:01:58,200 --> 04:02:01,240 Speaker 1: And well it's it's interesting, okay, So they have they 4039 04:02:01,280 --> 04:02:04,680 Speaker 1: have like they threat this needle where so like there 4040 04:02:04,760 --> 04:02:07,480 Speaker 1: are people in this period who want to just go 4041 04:02:07,640 --> 04:02:10,760 Speaker 1: back to pure rural agrarianism and don't want their to technology, 4042 04:02:11,880 --> 04:02:15,640 Speaker 1: and the pure anarchists are like, no, we still want technology, 4043 04:02:15,680 --> 04:02:18,880 Speaker 1: but we don't want the division of labor. So they're like, 4044 04:02:18,920 --> 04:02:21,080 Speaker 1: we like our raping machines so we don't have to 4045 04:02:21,160 --> 04:02:23,800 Speaker 1: work as much when we're farming. We just don't want 4046 04:02:23,840 --> 04:02:27,440 Speaker 1: everyone to live in apartments. Yeah, I mean even the 4047 04:02:27,520 --> 04:02:30,520 Speaker 1: reaping machine. I don't know, Like it's kind of unclear 4048 04:02:30,560 --> 04:02:34,080 Speaker 1: to me how this is exactually supposed to work, because like, 4049 04:02:34,880 --> 04:02:36,920 Speaker 1: well we'll get into this. I guess we can just 4050 04:02:36,960 --> 04:02:38,560 Speaker 1: get into this now, which is it? Like, Okay, so 4051 04:02:39,840 --> 04:02:41,680 Speaker 1: they really don't like the division of labor because they 4052 04:02:41,680 --> 04:02:45,560 Speaker 1: think the division of labor like well, Okay, they have, 4053 04:02:45,640 --> 04:02:47,360 Speaker 1: they have like there's like three critiques of but one 4054 04:02:47,480 --> 04:02:49,640 Speaker 1: is that like when you have a division of labor, 4055 04:02:49,760 --> 04:02:53,680 Speaker 1: labor becomes like mechanized industrialized. And when that happens, um 4056 04:02:54,360 --> 04:02:56,360 Speaker 1: labor because like it gets reduced to just like a 4057 04:02:56,480 --> 04:02:59,720 Speaker 1: cog you put in a machine m hm. And they 4058 04:02:59,760 --> 04:03:01,320 Speaker 1: see this is like this is like an inherent like 4059 04:03:01,520 --> 04:03:04,160 Speaker 1: thing that happens with labor specializations. You just end up 4060 04:03:04,240 --> 04:03:07,200 Speaker 1: like being a person who makes more repetitive moving a 4061 04:03:07,240 --> 04:03:09,680 Speaker 1: factory over and over again, like you're not free because 4062 04:03:09,680 --> 04:03:14,320 Speaker 1: of this UM. And they also argue that like specialization 4063 04:03:14,440 --> 04:03:16,880 Speaker 1: means that people only care about like labor that they 4064 04:03:16,920 --> 04:03:20,400 Speaker 1: do and so this gives you like an identity that 4065 04:03:20,520 --> 04:03:23,960 Speaker 1: that divides workers from one sector. Like say if you're 4066 04:03:24,000 --> 04:03:25,920 Speaker 1: if you're you know, you're like a coal miner, right, 4067 04:03:26,480 --> 04:03:29,760 Speaker 1: your daily experience is so utterly different than a baker. 4068 04:03:30,600 --> 04:03:32,080 Speaker 1: And it's not just like your experience, it's like it's 4069 04:03:32,080 --> 04:03:34,520 Speaker 1: like your knowledge is different. The other person is not gonna, 4070 04:03:34,640 --> 04:03:37,480 Speaker 1: like the baker is not gonna understand what you're doing. Um. 4071 04:03:39,240 --> 04:03:42,440 Speaker 1: And you keep wanting to argue against this political position 4072 04:03:42,520 --> 04:03:49,360 Speaker 1: that no, no, that misunderstands the nature of specialization at all, 4073 04:03:49,480 --> 04:03:51,520 Speaker 1: you know. But then I'm like, all right, I can't 4074 04:03:51,520 --> 04:03:55,400 Speaker 1: go back and convince these people. Yeah, I think, like 4075 04:03:55,640 --> 04:03:58,960 Speaker 1: I think, okay, this is I'm gonna I'm gonna, I'm 4076 04:03:58,960 --> 04:04:03,960 Speaker 1: gonna put on my my my marks, my like weird 4077 04:04:04,120 --> 04:04:08,560 Speaker 1: left calm mars, noise and critique not a platform, which 4078 04:04:08,640 --> 04:04:10,600 Speaker 1: is not they they actually wanted as a platform, but like, 4079 04:04:10,640 --> 04:04:12,640 Speaker 1: I think it would have been a great critique and 4080 04:04:12,680 --> 04:04:15,760 Speaker 1: not a very good platform. Yeah, they're the platform. Yeah, 4081 04:04:16,000 --> 04:04:17,600 Speaker 1: I mean I think I think there's there's the interesting 4082 04:04:17,640 --> 04:04:20,960 Speaker 1: elements of it. Like they have this argument that like, okay, 4083 04:04:21,000 --> 04:04:23,400 Speaker 1: so if if you have your like your your syndicalists 4084 04:04:24,160 --> 04:04:30,040 Speaker 1: like society right where Okay, so you have a bunch 4085 04:04:30,080 --> 04:04:32,240 Speaker 1: of like, you have a bunch of like coal miners, 4086 04:04:32,320 --> 04:04:34,640 Speaker 1: you have a bunch of people who like make pots 4087 04:04:34,680 --> 04:04:39,600 Speaker 1: and pans. But you need to coordinate your labor because 4088 04:04:39,800 --> 04:04:41,960 Speaker 1: because you you have you have like specialization, you have 4089 04:04:42,040 --> 04:04:45,040 Speaker 1: branches of labor. And their argument is that, okay, so well, 4090 04:04:45,360 --> 04:04:47,360 Speaker 1: the cynicales why you do this. You have coordinating committees, 4091 04:04:47,440 --> 04:04:50,120 Speaker 1: right you You like, elect a person you like, send 4092 04:04:50,160 --> 04:04:52,520 Speaker 1: them to a coordinating council, and the coordinating council like 4093 04:04:52,640 --> 04:04:55,360 Speaker 1: coordinates stuff, and she was just like, well, that's just 4094 04:04:55,400 --> 04:04:57,160 Speaker 1: gonna choose those like things like that's just gonna turn 4095 04:04:57,160 --> 04:04:58,680 Speaker 1: into a state. Like you're just going to create a 4096 04:04:58,720 --> 04:05:01,200 Speaker 1: permanent class, even even if ap rotate people. You're you're 4097 04:05:01,240 --> 04:05:04,280 Speaker 1: you're creating an administrative body that's going to like rebuild 4098 04:05:04,320 --> 04:05:10,120 Speaker 1: the state again. And yeah, like okay, like I'm makin 4099 04:05:10,240 --> 04:05:13,440 Speaker 1: this like shrugging gesture that the audience cans like yeah, 4100 04:05:13,520 --> 04:05:16,160 Speaker 1: I got you know, Yeah, I I don't. Okay, So, 4101 04:05:16,240 --> 04:05:18,640 Speaker 1: like I don't think he's right about like most of this, 4102 04:05:18,920 --> 04:05:22,960 Speaker 1: Like I think he's sort of wrong about like almost 4103 04:05:23,000 --> 04:05:25,280 Speaker 1: all of it. The thing, the thing that stuck with 4104 04:05:25,440 --> 04:05:29,000 Speaker 1: me phil when I read this is like his specific 4105 04:05:29,040 --> 04:05:32,800 Speaker 1: critique of syndicalism, which is that it maintains like the 4106 04:05:32,880 --> 04:05:36,640 Speaker 1: structure of the old world. Because if you're a syndicalist 4107 04:05:36,760 --> 04:05:39,800 Speaker 1: and your your society is based on unions running their workplaces, 4108 04:05:40,680 --> 04:05:43,320 Speaker 1: then you've maintained the division of labor, but you've also 4109 04:05:43,440 --> 04:05:48,720 Speaker 1: maintained like the basic like geographic, physical, technological, and organizational 4110 04:05:48,760 --> 04:05:52,640 Speaker 1: structure of capitalism, like all of the like all of 4111 04:05:52,680 --> 04:05:54,280 Speaker 1: that stuff is still in the same place, and you're 4112 04:05:54,320 --> 04:05:57,120 Speaker 1: still sort of like going there to do your job, 4113 04:05:57,240 --> 04:05:59,680 Speaker 1: and I think there is an interesting sort of like 4114 04:06:00,480 --> 04:06:02,800 Speaker 1: like I think there was a genuinely interesting critique there 4115 04:06:02,960 --> 04:06:06,600 Speaker 1: of yeah, like how how do you make sure that 4116 04:06:07,560 --> 04:06:14,360 Speaker 1: you aren't just sort of reproducing that stuff? And like 4117 04:06:14,520 --> 04:06:18,400 Speaker 1: like I mean, I don't know, like the critique of 4118 04:06:18,440 --> 04:06:21,160 Speaker 1: why would you want to build a society like structured 4119 04:06:21,200 --> 04:06:23,920 Speaker 1: along the lines of production? Like why why do you 4120 04:06:23,960 --> 04:06:26,520 Speaker 1: want to structure your society around work? Like that's awful. 4121 04:06:27,480 --> 04:06:29,440 Speaker 1: I I like that about the pure anarchists, where they 4122 04:06:29,480 --> 04:06:31,800 Speaker 1: were kind of like let's let's let's throw away the 4123 04:06:31,840 --> 04:06:33,920 Speaker 1: Marxist ship for a minute and like just actually like 4124 04:06:34,040 --> 04:06:36,480 Speaker 1: figure out what we want, and like I I like 4125 04:06:36,640 --> 04:06:40,840 Speaker 1: that about it, But I I dislike the idea of like, 4126 04:06:41,520 --> 04:06:44,840 Speaker 1: well it's it's it would be my problem with syndicalism, 4127 04:06:44,880 --> 04:06:47,280 Speaker 1: and most of the syndicalists I met believe in syndicalism 4128 04:06:47,360 --> 04:06:50,560 Speaker 1: as a method and not an end result. Right, Um, 4129 04:06:51,040 --> 04:06:53,800 Speaker 1: it's a way of building workers power, not a way 4130 04:06:53,880 --> 04:06:56,720 Speaker 1: to create a society. But but if syndicalists were like 4131 04:06:56,760 --> 04:06:59,040 Speaker 1: everyone must wake up and go to their work job 4132 04:06:59,160 --> 04:07:01,920 Speaker 1: and then make eight widgets, but it's collectively determined which 4133 04:07:01,920 --> 04:07:04,800 Speaker 1: widgets that you make right like fun that, but also 4134 04:07:04,960 --> 04:07:07,280 Speaker 1: if it was like everyone goes and wakes up and 4135 04:07:07,360 --> 04:07:09,680 Speaker 1: goes to their collective farm and maybe we use raping 4136 04:07:09,720 --> 04:07:12,480 Speaker 1: machines and maybe we don't. And it's just like I 4137 04:07:12,560 --> 04:07:16,480 Speaker 1: get so unexcited by It's like one of the reasons 4138 04:07:16,480 --> 04:07:18,080 Speaker 1: that like a lot of the like nitpicky branches of 4139 04:07:18,120 --> 04:07:21,320 Speaker 1: anarchism don't they interest me, but I don't like subscribe 4140 04:07:21,360 --> 04:07:24,320 Speaker 1: to any of them is because I'm like, well, what 4141 04:07:24,480 --> 04:07:27,240 Speaker 1: if some people like this ship and some people like 4142 04:07:27,400 --> 04:07:29,680 Speaker 1: this ship like and you know, maybe they're could be 4143 04:07:29,720 --> 04:07:32,320 Speaker 1: fucking different. Imagine that we could have a plurality of 4144 04:07:33,440 --> 04:07:37,920 Speaker 1: economic models systems. But you know whatever, um I'm now 4145 04:07:38,080 --> 04:07:42,120 Speaker 1: arguing with that people who I probably would interesting like, well, 4146 04:07:42,160 --> 04:07:45,320 Speaker 1: I don't know, because these guys like they they have 4147 04:07:45,560 --> 04:07:48,240 Speaker 1: like the maoist thing going on where like they will 4148 04:07:48,280 --> 04:07:51,640 Speaker 1: like attack other leftist groups who like don't like follow 4149 04:07:51,720 --> 04:07:54,840 Speaker 1: their line. And so this is where this whole thing 4150 04:07:54,960 --> 04:07:56,560 Speaker 1: is wild, because it was one of the everything is 4151 04:07:56,680 --> 04:08:02,000 Speaker 1: like the the pure anarchists are like completely convinced that 4152 04:08:02,040 --> 04:08:05,080 Speaker 1: syndicalism is like a sort of like well they think 4153 04:08:05,080 --> 04:08:07,480 Speaker 1: it's it's just like it's not an anarchist thing. It's 4154 04:08:07,520 --> 04:08:10,160 Speaker 1: just like a tendency to labor movement. And they also 4155 04:08:10,240 --> 04:08:12,360 Speaker 1: think that like it's basically like a bastardised form of 4156 04:08:12,440 --> 04:08:16,520 Speaker 1: Marxism because they're not like entirely wrong about either of 4157 04:08:16,640 --> 04:08:20,440 Speaker 1: those things. But yeah, except in a different places and times. Yeah, 4158 04:08:20,680 --> 04:08:22,080 Speaker 1: but it's like the thing, the thing that they have 4159 04:08:22,120 --> 04:08:25,280 Speaker 1: about it, like because they're they're completely convinced that syndicalism 4160 04:08:25,320 --> 04:08:29,400 Speaker 1: will inevitably just like turn into like Soviet communism. It's 4161 04:08:29,560 --> 04:08:36,760 Speaker 1: like it's incredibly silly. Um, but like like this, you know, 4162 04:08:36,800 --> 04:08:38,480 Speaker 1: I like, on the one hand, like that they are 4163 04:08:38,640 --> 04:08:40,760 Speaker 1: kind of inventing a lot of the sort of like 4164 04:08:41,160 --> 04:08:44,280 Speaker 1: like they're they're inventing a lot of the sort of 4165 04:08:44,400 --> 04:08:51,920 Speaker 1: like some okay, some bad arguments about like specialization and 4166 04:08:51,960 --> 04:08:54,280 Speaker 1: stuff like like some anti work stuff too that like 4167 04:08:54,480 --> 04:08:56,960 Speaker 1: is going to be around later. They're also inventing a 4168 04:08:57,000 --> 04:09:05,080 Speaker 1: lot of stuff that's like and you know, initially this 4169 04:09:05,240 --> 04:09:07,080 Speaker 1: kind of like new theory doesn't have this doesn't have 4170 04:09:07,120 --> 04:09:13,000 Speaker 1: an enormous effect. Um. In six, the Federation of Black 4171 04:09:13,120 --> 04:09:16,240 Speaker 1: Youth or COCODA and has its first public meeting and 4172 04:09:16,520 --> 04:09:19,640 Speaker 1: they have a bunch of cool slogans, the slogans rolled 4173 04:09:19,680 --> 04:09:22,920 Speaker 1: they have. The emancipation of workers must be carried out 4174 04:09:22,920 --> 04:09:27,360 Speaker 1: by the workers themselves. We insist on libertarian federation, destroy 4175 04:09:27,480 --> 04:09:31,760 Speaker 1: the political movement, get rid of, reject the Poltarian party, 4176 04:09:31,920 --> 04:09:36,920 Speaker 1: get rid of professional activists with all oppressive laws and ordinances. 4177 04:09:37,440 --> 04:09:42,840 Speaker 1: That is an entirely based platform. Yeah, sweet, it's it's good. Yeah, 4178 04:09:43,360 --> 04:09:44,960 Speaker 1: And you know there were things despite the fact that 4179 04:09:45,040 --> 04:09:46,800 Speaker 1: it's called the Federation of Black Youth, this is like 4180 04:09:46,960 --> 04:09:48,640 Speaker 1: not a youth I mean, I mean there's like youth 4181 04:09:48,720 --> 04:09:51,240 Speaker 1: in it, but like it's it's this thing's backed by 4182 04:09:51,280 --> 04:09:53,080 Speaker 1: like remember those those printers unions that I was talking 4183 04:09:53,080 --> 04:09:54,960 Speaker 1: about last episode that as like, hi, you have like 4184 04:09:55,000 --> 04:09:57,360 Speaker 1: set up. So they're all heavily involved in this um 4185 04:09:58,000 --> 04:09:59,720 Speaker 1: and they do a bunch of cool labor stuff, Like 4186 04:09:59,760 --> 04:10:03,080 Speaker 1: they they get involved in like, uh, there's a bunch 4187 04:10:03,120 --> 04:10:05,360 Speaker 1: of tram worker strikes, they get involved in the there 4188 04:10:05,440 --> 04:10:09,480 Speaker 1: in this, uh, the Japanese Musical instrument company strike, which 4189 04:10:09,560 --> 04:10:11,480 Speaker 1: is like there's like over a thousand people on strike 4190 04:10:11,560 --> 04:10:14,640 Speaker 1: for like over a hundred days, and there's there's this 4191 04:10:14,720 --> 04:10:16,920 Speaker 1: great split where like so the leadership of the union 4192 04:10:17,000 --> 04:10:19,640 Speaker 1: is Bolshevik, but like a bunch of the like a 4193 04:10:19,720 --> 04:10:22,280 Speaker 1: bunch of the ordinary people in the union are anarchists, 4194 04:10:22,320 --> 04:10:23,720 Speaker 1: and so you have the there's there's like there's this 4195 04:10:23,800 --> 04:10:26,160 Speaker 1: fun tension going around there. They're they're they're they're doing 4196 04:10:26,240 --> 04:10:32,440 Speaker 1: the stuff. Um and then the anarchists form um Zengoku Gaterrand, 4197 04:10:32,480 --> 04:10:35,840 Speaker 1: which is the All Japanese Libertarian Federation of Labor Unions, 4198 04:10:36,000 --> 04:10:38,840 Speaker 1: which is a it's a federation of twenty unions. These 4199 04:10:38,880 --> 04:10:40,720 Speaker 1: are the pure anarchists that you're talking about that are 4200 04:10:40,760 --> 04:10:43,440 Speaker 1: doing all this. So sorry, at this point, they haven't 4201 04:10:43,440 --> 04:10:45,760 Speaker 1: split yet, okay, because it was like this sounds like 4202 04:10:45,800 --> 04:10:47,440 Speaker 1: all the stuff that they said that they don't want 4203 04:10:47,480 --> 04:10:49,240 Speaker 1: to do. Yeah, well, this is like the other the 4204 04:10:49,280 --> 04:10:51,640 Speaker 1: other wild thing about this is that like, okay, so 4205 04:10:51,800 --> 04:10:54,720 Speaker 1: the entirety of like of like pyrannicist theory, right, is 4206 04:10:54,720 --> 04:10:58,800 Speaker 1: about how like unions don't do revolutions and that class struggle, 4207 04:10:58,800 --> 04:11:02,400 Speaker 1: but like they still do strikes, like they still do 4208 04:11:02,600 --> 04:11:05,200 Speaker 1: all the normal stuff. It's kind of wild, Okay, I 4209 04:11:05,320 --> 04:11:09,040 Speaker 1: kind of like that, yeah, you know, and like and 4210 04:11:09,200 --> 04:11:10,640 Speaker 1: and this that that's sort of how they're able to 4211 04:11:10,680 --> 04:11:13,920 Speaker 1: get along in this early period and these unions like okay, 4212 04:11:13,960 --> 04:11:15,320 Speaker 1: so there's like a lot of printers unions in this 4213 04:11:15,400 --> 04:11:17,600 Speaker 1: because the prints unions are just really anarchists. But there's 4214 04:11:17,600 --> 04:11:19,840 Speaker 1: there's like there's a tenant farmers union. There's a loutch 4215 04:11:19,880 --> 04:11:22,600 Speaker 1: of like rubber unions, and it grows to like fifteen 4216 04:11:22,960 --> 04:11:26,400 Speaker 1: workers almost immediately, and yeah, they're they're doing a lot 4217 04:11:26,440 --> 04:11:28,600 Speaker 1: of cool stuff, like they have they have these huge 4218 04:11:28,600 --> 04:11:32,520 Speaker 1: demonstrations in support Saco and Vinzetti, uh to the US 4219 04:11:32,760 --> 04:11:38,120 Speaker 1: is killing for being anarchists, and also Italians just like yeah, 4220 04:11:38,360 --> 04:11:45,000 Speaker 1: the one time anti Italian racism was real and a 4221 04:11:45,080 --> 04:11:47,280 Speaker 1: hundred years ago ship was real different than it is 4222 04:11:47,360 --> 04:11:52,920 Speaker 1: now and it doesn't yeah yeah, yeah yeah. And for 4223 04:11:53,080 --> 04:11:55,960 Speaker 1: for for one year, this like this works great, you know, 4224 04:11:56,040 --> 04:12:00,040 Speaker 1: like the yeah that the unions up to like I 4225 04:12:00,080 --> 04:12:03,640 Speaker 1: think they get up to like thousand members, like it 4226 04:12:03,680 --> 04:12:08,000 Speaker 1: gets pretty big. But then intense conflict between the syndicalists 4227 04:12:08,000 --> 04:12:10,520 Speaker 1: and the anarchac and the pure anarchists breakout. And this 4228 04:12:10,680 --> 04:12:14,040 Speaker 1: gets so bad so fast that like the International working 4229 04:12:14,080 --> 04:12:17,360 Speaker 1: Man's Association, which is the like like the giant international 4230 04:12:17,480 --> 04:12:20,760 Speaker 1: like Federation of Cynicalist Movements like sends them a letter 4231 04:12:21,080 --> 04:12:23,920 Speaker 1: that are like, hey, cynicalist and Archer communists get along 4232 04:12:24,040 --> 04:12:26,880 Speaker 1: every literally everywhere else on earth. Their chilk. You guys 4233 04:12:27,160 --> 04:12:33,360 Speaker 1: like chill and the anarcha communists in Cocaduran. Uh, their 4234 04:12:33,440 --> 04:12:37,640 Speaker 1: response is, h we are fighting quote the betrayers, opportunists 4235 04:12:37,720 --> 04:12:46,600 Speaker 1: and union imperialists in Zengoku Juran's ranks can't have nice things. 4236 04:12:47,200 --> 04:12:48,840 Speaker 1: You know, it's great, it gets better, it gets better. 4237 04:12:49,240 --> 04:12:56,960 Speaker 1: So they lose. Yeah, okay, look in the conference so 4238 04:12:57,320 --> 04:13:00,920 Speaker 1: uh Enoka Juran which is the Union federation, like they 4239 04:13:00,960 --> 04:13:02,760 Speaker 1: have they have a conference, they have the yearly conference, 4240 04:13:03,480 --> 04:13:05,600 Speaker 1: and there's just like giant battle over like what the 4241 04:13:05,720 --> 04:13:07,800 Speaker 1: organizations platform is going to be a thing that doesn't 4242 04:13:07,840 --> 04:13:11,920 Speaker 1: matter at all, except it's a proxy ideological fight. And uh, 4243 04:13:12,080 --> 04:13:14,240 Speaker 1: both sides to start screaming at each other. And I'm 4244 04:13:14,240 --> 04:13:17,960 Speaker 1: gonna read this description from Ardashizo and Pyannicism into War Japan. 4245 04:13:19,200 --> 04:13:23,000 Speaker 1: Cocona and members barricaded the barrack to the anarchy. The 4246 04:13:23,040 --> 04:13:27,880 Speaker 1: anarchist syndicolist jeering and cat calling them, and the proceedings 4247 04:13:27,920 --> 04:13:30,440 Speaker 1: degenerated to the level where it was almost impossible to 4248 04:13:30,520 --> 04:13:33,920 Speaker 1: hear the speeches. Eventually, the anarcho Synicholas decided they had 4249 04:13:33,960 --> 04:13:37,280 Speaker 1: had enough unflirling their black flags, they walked out of 4250 04:13:37,360 --> 04:13:40,720 Speaker 1: the hall to a chorus of taunts such as believers, blind, 4251 04:13:40,800 --> 04:13:45,840 Speaker 1: believers in Central authority, Bolsheviks, and betrayers, Oh my god, 4252 04:13:46,160 --> 04:13:52,400 Speaker 1: got over yourself. Oh my no, okay, to be fair 4253 04:13:52,480 --> 04:13:55,080 Speaker 1: to the pure anarchists, one of so, okay, a bunch 4254 04:13:55,120 --> 04:13:57,760 Speaker 1: of the cynicals yount start leaving and all one of 4255 04:13:57,840 --> 04:14:00,880 Speaker 1: them does actually join the Bolsheviks, but like all the 4256 04:14:00,960 --> 04:14:03,400 Speaker 1: other ones don't because they're not and you get this 4257 04:14:03,440 --> 04:14:05,680 Speaker 1: period there's like they have like the cynical list and 4258 04:14:05,720 --> 04:14:09,240 Speaker 1: the periodicis of dueling magazines. Uh, there's won't call black flag. 4259 04:14:09,360 --> 04:14:13,000 Speaker 1: There won't called black battle. And like so Cokerran, which 4260 04:14:13,000 --> 04:14:14,800 Speaker 1: is like the youth mid thing, like the cynicalas and 4261 04:14:14,800 --> 04:14:16,560 Speaker 1: the anarchists are still in it together, and they like 4262 04:14:16,840 --> 04:14:18,560 Speaker 1: they start just like fighting each other in the street 4263 04:14:18,560 --> 04:14:22,080 Speaker 1: when they run into each other, because the the this 4264 04:14:22,240 --> 04:14:25,480 Speaker 1: is more oppressing than everyone getting murdered after the earthquake, 4265 04:14:26,280 --> 04:14:31,280 Speaker 1: not the anarchist killing part. Yeah well, I mean yeah, yeah, 4266 04:14:31,480 --> 04:14:36,560 Speaker 1: it's it's like it's incredible, you know, and like yeah, 4267 04:14:36,720 --> 04:14:40,400 Speaker 1: they what's interesting about this though, is that like the 4268 04:14:40,480 --> 04:14:44,520 Speaker 1: inarchal communists, like when the union splits, like almost all 4269 04:14:44,600 --> 04:14:47,320 Speaker 1: of the people stay with the communists, even though the 4270 04:14:47,360 --> 04:14:50,160 Speaker 1: inucer communist like explicitly saying we're not fighting for like 4271 04:14:50,280 --> 04:14:54,880 Speaker 1: wage increases, we're just fighting for revolution, and fine, I'm 4272 04:14:54,880 --> 04:14:57,800 Speaker 1: alright with that. Yeah. Well, but there's interesting stuff too worse, 4273 04:14:57,880 --> 04:15:00,920 Speaker 1: like like they're also so be be because they have 4274 04:15:01,000 --> 04:15:02,920 Speaker 1: this thing that's like, okay, so that the urban workers 4275 04:15:02,960 --> 04:15:07,400 Speaker 1: are like exploiting the well, okay, the line about it's 4276 04:15:07,440 --> 04:15:09,640 Speaker 1: complicated because it's like they think the urban workers are 4277 04:15:09,640 --> 04:15:11,680 Speaker 1: exploiting the countryside, but they also don't think that the 4278 04:15:11,720 --> 04:15:13,560 Speaker 1: solution to it is to just like turn it the 4279 04:15:13,600 --> 04:15:15,440 Speaker 1: other way around. They think that like the workers and 4280 04:15:15,640 --> 04:15:18,680 Speaker 1: the tenant farmers just worked together to like make the 4281 04:15:18,760 --> 04:15:21,800 Speaker 1: oppression go away, which is like a reasonable stance on it. Yeah, 4282 04:15:22,040 --> 04:15:23,520 Speaker 1: but it means that, you know, they're interested in, like 4283 04:15:23,520 --> 04:15:25,560 Speaker 1: they're interested in the royal movement in a way that 4284 04:15:25,640 --> 04:15:31,000 Speaker 1: like the other Japanese lefe stupments aren't. But unfortunately, you know, Okay, 4285 04:15:31,360 --> 04:15:33,760 Speaker 1: there's a big debate as to whether this split like 4286 04:15:34,000 --> 04:15:38,080 Speaker 1: actually like like how big a role this split had 4287 04:15:38,120 --> 04:15:42,120 Speaker 1: in the collapse of anarchism, because like bye bye by, 4288 04:15:42,240 --> 04:15:45,240 Speaker 1: like by like nineteen thirty one, Like the fascists have 4289 04:15:45,320 --> 04:15:49,320 Speaker 1: just straight up taken over Manchuria. Like I think things 4290 04:15:49,400 --> 04:15:51,720 Speaker 1: have gotten so fascist that it's like it's unclear whether 4291 04:15:52,760 --> 04:15:57,240 Speaker 1: the split matter at all. Yeah, um yeah, but you know, 4292 04:15:57,320 --> 04:16:03,600 Speaker 1: they run into this problem where like like coke and 4293 04:16:05,240 --> 04:16:08,160 Speaker 1: like the state really hates them, and they are a 4294 04:16:08,200 --> 04:16:09,840 Speaker 1: bunch of them get arrested and that they you know, 4295 04:16:09,920 --> 04:16:12,080 Speaker 1: they respond to being arrested by like getting more militant. 4296 04:16:12,120 --> 04:16:13,880 Speaker 1: But then that just you know, that fuels the cycle 4297 04:16:13,920 --> 04:16:16,080 Speaker 1: of them getting arrested for and people just leave because 4298 04:16:16,120 --> 04:16:17,880 Speaker 1: they're like, well, okay, if I'm in this organization, like 4299 04:16:18,560 --> 04:16:20,640 Speaker 1: we're all just gonna like get shot. I mean that's 4300 04:16:20,680 --> 04:16:26,520 Speaker 1: the spiral. Yeah yeah, And you know it's his real problem, 4301 04:16:26,560 --> 04:16:28,880 Speaker 1: and like how does Chesu himself becomes just like incredibly 4302 04:16:28,920 --> 04:16:31,520 Speaker 1: depressed by the depression of the movement. But actually thirty 4303 04:16:31,560 --> 04:16:34,480 Speaker 1: two he just leaves like he's just out. He like 4304 04:16:34,520 --> 04:16:38,640 Speaker 1: renounces his anarchism. He abuses his wife because this is 4305 04:16:38,760 --> 04:16:41,520 Speaker 1: the story of a bunch of guys who sucked and 4306 04:16:41,680 --> 04:16:46,520 Speaker 1: then he drink Yeah, well I guess okay, he he 4307 04:16:46,720 --> 04:16:49,080 Speaker 1: did it to him. Yeah, he drinks it. The death 4308 04:16:49,160 --> 04:16:52,120 Speaker 1: got it done. On his own. Yeah, and you know, 4309 04:16:52,280 --> 04:16:55,040 Speaker 1: so he he dies and he like kills himself. Well 4310 04:16:55,640 --> 04:16:56,960 Speaker 1: I don't think he was doing a purpose, but he 4311 04:16:57,040 --> 04:17:00,840 Speaker 1: just dies from drinking too much. Four and that year, 4312 04:17:00,880 --> 04:17:03,720 Speaker 1: actually the anarcho communists narcos niklas like get back together. 4313 04:17:04,200 --> 04:17:07,760 Speaker 1: But it doesn't matter because by this point the fascist 4314 04:17:07,800 --> 04:17:11,760 Speaker 1: such a start different power. And yeah, the anarchists they do, 4315 04:17:11,840 --> 04:17:14,600 Speaker 1: they do one last world uprising and they fight a 4316 04:17:14,640 --> 04:17:16,440 Speaker 1: lot of cops and then all of them get arrested 4317 04:17:16,480 --> 04:17:18,120 Speaker 1: and anarchism just sort of dies until the end of 4318 04:17:18,160 --> 04:17:24,240 Speaker 1: World War two. And yeah, it's you know, okay, anarchism 4319 04:17:24,320 --> 04:17:27,080 Speaker 1: does really emerge after the war, but that's like that, 4320 04:17:27,240 --> 04:17:30,680 Speaker 1: that's a whole another story and entirely. Uh what I 4321 04:17:30,720 --> 04:17:33,560 Speaker 1: will say about is if you see those those construction 4322 04:17:33,600 --> 04:17:36,000 Speaker 1: hats from the protests, and you see one that's just 4323 04:17:36,120 --> 04:17:38,360 Speaker 1: all black, it doesn't have like a name written on it, 4324 04:17:38,440 --> 04:17:41,880 Speaker 1: like those are the anarchists whistle around um and you know, 4325 04:17:41,920 --> 04:17:45,240 Speaker 1: and anarchism of Japan like survives to this day. There 4326 04:17:45,320 --> 04:17:47,800 Speaker 1: there there's a book called the Manual for a Worldwide 4327 04:17:48,080 --> 04:17:50,800 Speaker 1: for a worldwide manuk revolts that like one day, I 4328 04:17:50,840 --> 04:17:52,760 Speaker 1: swear to God, I'm actually gonna read. But he is 4329 04:17:53,120 --> 04:17:55,160 Speaker 1: really big in China. Well, okay, I said really big 4330 04:17:55,240 --> 04:18:00,720 Speaker 1: in China. It's very influential in a very small subcultural 4331 04:18:01,000 --> 04:18:04,480 Speaker 1: anarchist scene in China. But I'm talking about them because 4332 04:18:04,640 --> 04:18:09,200 Speaker 1: it heavily influenced Like the people who wrote the Lying 4333 04:18:09,240 --> 04:18:13,160 Speaker 1: Flat manifesto, Um, we're like, we're very heavily influenced by 4334 04:18:13,200 --> 04:18:18,040 Speaker 1: this stuff. Oh okay, okay, So we would just episode 4335 04:18:18,040 --> 04:18:19,680 Speaker 1: about this a while back, but Lying Flat was this 4336 04:18:19,760 --> 04:18:21,680 Speaker 1: thing in China, I guess still going on, but like 4337 04:18:21,720 --> 04:18:24,200 Speaker 1: people were just like it's kind of it was kind 4338 04:18:24,200 --> 04:18:26,720 Speaker 1: of the version of anti work or most people like 4339 04:18:27,200 --> 04:18:29,600 Speaker 1: discovered Diogenes and or like what if I just didn't work? 4340 04:18:30,760 --> 04:18:33,440 Speaker 1: What if I just like lived on, like I worked 4341 04:18:33,480 --> 04:18:35,520 Speaker 1: like one day a month and then lived on like 4342 04:18:35,960 --> 04:18:37,600 Speaker 1: nothing so I didn't have to work, Or if I 4343 04:18:37,640 --> 04:18:40,280 Speaker 1: just quit. What if I just like stop doing all 4344 04:18:40,320 --> 04:18:42,160 Speaker 1: of this capitalist stuff, and what if I like stop 4345 04:18:42,320 --> 04:18:44,240 Speaker 1: having to deal with this patriarchy. What if I just like, 4346 04:18:45,440 --> 04:18:49,200 Speaker 1: you know, yeah, and it takes kind of like yeah, yeah, 4347 04:18:49,200 --> 04:18:52,800 Speaker 1: they're they're great. They've loss of one Diogenes quotes, lots 4348 04:18:52,880 --> 04:18:56,200 Speaker 1: of like the the manifesto they released is like very 4349 04:18:56,800 --> 04:19:00,280 Speaker 1: it's like very anarchist and yeah, like that thing, and 4350 04:19:00,360 --> 04:19:01,760 Speaker 1: that was like like this, this is a big enough 4351 04:19:01,880 --> 04:19:05,080 Speaker 1: social movement that like like she jumping like mentioned it 4352 04:19:05,120 --> 04:19:08,640 Speaker 1: in a speech, okay, and so yeah, like Jeffrey's anachism. 4353 04:19:08,720 --> 04:19:13,480 Speaker 1: Still for them, they were had kind of concerned about 4354 04:19:15,240 --> 04:19:18,000 Speaker 1: like the same way a whole bunch of like oligarchs 4355 04:19:18,040 --> 04:19:20,880 Speaker 1: got concerned about the anti work stuff, and you saw 4356 04:19:20,960 --> 04:19:23,640 Speaker 1: like anti work hit pieces in the past like six months. 4357 04:19:24,000 --> 04:19:26,720 Speaker 1: It was it was like similar things, being like, well, 4358 04:19:26,840 --> 04:19:30,040 Speaker 1: this better not catch on more because that could really 4359 04:19:30,120 --> 04:19:34,240 Speaker 1: suck for us. That's as optimistic of a note as 4360 04:19:34,280 --> 04:19:36,120 Speaker 1: you could possibly get out of the story, which is 4361 04:19:36,200 --> 04:19:38,960 Speaker 1: that they're still around and they still influenced things that matter, 4362 04:19:39,640 --> 04:19:44,160 Speaker 1: so and hopefully they don't fight each other more than 4363 04:19:44,240 --> 04:19:50,640 Speaker 1: the state. Yeah, don't don't do that, Like I like, yes, 4364 04:19:52,200 --> 04:19:55,160 Speaker 1: I guess I will make my controversial Sometimes it's okay 4365 04:19:55,160 --> 04:19:57,920 Speaker 1: to stab an abuser under the throat stance. But also, 4366 04:19:59,040 --> 04:20:03,800 Speaker 1: don't urge all your syndicalists because on the accusation of 4367 04:20:03,840 --> 04:20:08,880 Speaker 1: Bullshevism hot take, don't purge all your classes. Yeah, yeah, 4368 04:20:09,400 --> 04:20:12,440 Speaker 1: don't systematize violence like that. You know, you're like this 4369 04:20:12,600 --> 04:20:15,720 Speaker 1: individual guy just did this thing, and I'm real upset 4370 04:20:15,760 --> 04:20:17,160 Speaker 1: that he just did it to me, And there's like 4371 04:20:17,200 --> 04:20:20,080 Speaker 1: a throat. I'm not actually making an actual advocacy. I'm 4372 04:20:20,080 --> 04:20:22,280 Speaker 1: talking about how sometimes when that has happened in history, 4373 04:20:22,400 --> 04:20:26,760 Speaker 1: that seemed kind of cool. But yeah, not the not 4374 04:20:26,920 --> 04:20:31,640 Speaker 1: the systemic kick out all the people who have this 4375 04:20:31,840 --> 04:20:34,480 Speaker 1: minor I mean, it's really funny to me because I'm like, 4376 04:20:35,160 --> 04:20:37,680 Speaker 1: I'm like huge anti infighting. Then people are like, don't 4377 04:20:37,680 --> 04:20:39,640 Speaker 1: you spend all your time fighting tankies on the internet, 4378 04:20:39,640 --> 04:20:42,920 Speaker 1: And I'm like, they want to make a state that's different. Yeah, 4379 04:20:44,120 --> 04:20:46,800 Speaker 1: they believe that they everyone should be thrown in jail. 4380 04:20:47,200 --> 04:20:54,360 Speaker 1: That is a different thing. Um. Also, I don't like 4381 04:20:56,640 --> 04:20:59,960 Speaker 1: you've got to manage to polycuele drauma, Like you've gotta manage. 4382 04:21:00,120 --> 04:21:03,600 Speaker 1: It's got to be kept under control. You cannot allow 4383 04:21:03,680 --> 04:21:06,520 Speaker 1: your retired you seem to be factionalized over rival policels 4384 04:21:06,600 --> 04:21:16,960 Speaker 1: and anarchists control your polychuel drama quotations and partisis impossible. See, 4385 04:21:16,960 --> 04:21:19,160 Speaker 1: that's why you just need more. Maybe it's not true, 4386 04:21:19,160 --> 04:21:22,720 Speaker 1: it's like you need more multi generational anarchists because I 4387 04:21:22,800 --> 04:21:24,840 Speaker 1: think people in their forties give less of a ship 4388 04:21:24,920 --> 04:21:27,360 Speaker 1: about a lot of the drama. But then I'm like, 4389 04:21:28,400 --> 04:21:30,720 Speaker 1: maybe that's not true. Maybe people on their forties it 4390 04:21:30,840 --> 04:21:37,200 Speaker 1: give just as much of a ship about all the drama. Anarchism, 4391 04:21:37,480 --> 04:21:44,720 Speaker 1: wonderful idea Yep, yeah, it's good. And speaking of wonderful ideas, 4392 04:21:45,440 --> 04:21:50,160 Speaker 1: it is time for us to do the plugs. Um. First, 4393 04:21:50,440 --> 04:21:53,000 Speaker 1: I just want to plug Jimmie Loftus is new Cools 4394 04:21:53,080 --> 04:21:57,720 Speaker 1: one media podcast Goes Church by Jimmie Loftus. Uh. By 4395 04:21:57,800 --> 04:22:01,600 Speaker 1: the time this drops, episode one will be out in 4396 04:22:01,720 --> 04:22:06,160 Speaker 1: Episode two will be dropping the next Monday, I believe, 4397 04:22:06,400 --> 04:22:11,040 Speaker 1: yes exactly. And we also have another podcast on Cools 4398 04:22:11,080 --> 04:22:14,880 Speaker 1: and Media with one Margaret Killjoy called Cool People Who 4399 04:22:14,960 --> 04:22:17,560 Speaker 1: Did Cool Stuff? Margaret, you wanted to tell us about that? Oh? 4400 04:22:17,600 --> 04:22:19,200 Speaker 1: Should should I start working on that. I'll get it 4401 04:22:19,240 --> 04:22:23,040 Speaker 1: done by monday. Okay? Cool? Um, I have a new 4402 04:22:23,080 --> 04:22:25,720 Speaker 1: podcast called Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff, which is 4403 04:22:26,200 --> 04:22:31,880 Speaker 1: as about cool people who did did cool stuff, and 4404 04:22:32,480 --> 04:22:36,320 Speaker 1: you might like it if you like stories about people who. Um, 4405 04:22:37,120 --> 04:22:39,160 Speaker 1: I can't say cool stuff again, I'll have to use 4406 04:22:39,240 --> 04:22:41,080 Speaker 1: come up with more synonyms. Really, it's just all a 4407 04:22:41,160 --> 04:22:43,280 Speaker 1: competition to see how many synonyms for cool I can 4408 04:22:43,320 --> 04:22:45,320 Speaker 1: come up with without using the word based, because I 4409 04:22:45,360 --> 04:22:47,960 Speaker 1: feel like I'm too old to use the word based 4410 04:22:48,120 --> 04:22:51,200 Speaker 1: without really, this is what you are here for. So 4411 04:22:51,280 --> 04:22:53,760 Speaker 1: I'm much more eloquent on my podcast, which you can 4412 04:22:53,800 --> 04:22:57,360 Speaker 1: catch every Monday and Wednesday wherever you get your podcasts, 4413 04:22:57,400 --> 04:22:59,760 Speaker 1: probably wherever you got this podcast is where you can 4414 04:22:59,800 --> 04:23:02,200 Speaker 1: find it. And the trailer is out now, so you 4415 04:23:02,280 --> 04:23:04,800 Speaker 1: can go and you can listen to the trailer where 4416 04:23:04,840 --> 04:23:07,640 Speaker 1: I talk about some anarchist bank robbers who broke out 4417 04:23:07,720 --> 04:23:10,400 Speaker 1: of prison, because why would you be in prison when 4418 04:23:10,440 --> 04:23:13,640 Speaker 1: you could be outside of prison, which is generally the 4419 04:23:13,720 --> 04:23:17,240 Speaker 1: preferable position to be in, with the exception of like 4420 04:23:17,320 --> 04:23:19,480 Speaker 1: every now and then, like people break up out of 4421 04:23:19,560 --> 04:23:21,600 Speaker 1: jail by like someone goes to jail on purpose, but 4422 04:23:21,640 --> 04:23:23,520 Speaker 1: they have like hacks all blades in their shoes and ship. 4423 04:23:23,760 --> 04:23:27,880 Speaker 1: That would be cool too. Um So more breaking your 4424 04:23:27,920 --> 04:23:31,080 Speaker 1: friends out of jail and less chasing them out of 4425 04:23:31,120 --> 04:23:36,600 Speaker 1: the room jeering at them is my general rule. I 4426 04:23:36,680 --> 04:23:38,880 Speaker 1: hate to make rules, but if I were to make one, 4427 04:23:39,080 --> 04:23:41,440 Speaker 1: it would be that. And you can hear me talk 4428 04:23:41,480 --> 04:23:47,160 Speaker 1: about those kinds of stories on the podcast. Well, thank thank, 4429 04:23:47,280 --> 04:23:50,560 Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining joining us today, for 4430 04:23:51,040 --> 04:23:56,840 Speaker 1: for Chris to talk about the wonderful, wonderful history of 4431 04:23:57,440 --> 04:24:03,320 Speaker 1: Japanese and the very the many deaths that are associated 4432 04:24:03,960 --> 04:24:07,880 Speaker 1: in those poor people and yeah, the like so basically 4433 04:24:08,160 --> 04:24:13,920 Speaker 1: like a like a mini Korean genocide. Yeah, yeah, intense. 4434 04:24:15,520 --> 04:24:18,280 Speaker 1: Well that's it for us today. You can find this 4435 04:24:18,360 --> 04:24:21,600 Speaker 1: on Instagram. It Happen to your pot in cool Zone Media. Uh, 4436 04:24:21,840 --> 04:24:25,160 Speaker 1: see you next week and go listen to podcasts. We 4437 04:24:25,280 --> 04:24:32,600 Speaker 1: have many of them. Hey, we'll be back Monday with 4438 04:24:32,880 --> 04:24:35,680 Speaker 1: more episodes every week from now until the heat Death 4439 04:24:35,720 --> 04:24:38,280 Speaker 1: of the Universe. It Could Happen Here is a production 4440 04:24:38,320 --> 04:24:41,320 Speaker 1: of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, 4441 04:24:41,440 --> 04:24:43,920 Speaker 1: visit our website cool zone media dot com or check 4442 04:24:44,000 --> 04:24:46,240 Speaker 1: us out on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 4443 04:24:46,360 --> 04:24:49,320 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources 4444 04:24:49,360 --> 04:24:51,960 Speaker 1: for It Could Happen Here, updated monthly at cool zone 4445 04:24:51,960 --> 04:24:54,720 Speaker 1: Media dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.