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Speaker 1: The case being discussed in the next couple of episodes

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Speaker 1: of Sworn was an emotional case. It was a horrific case.

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Speaker 1: It was a highly publicized and emotional case. But the

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Speaker 1: purpose of this podcast is not to relitigate guilt or innocence,

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Speaker 1: and nothing that I say should be interpreted as an

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Speaker 1: expression of my opinion about the guilt or innocence of anybody.

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Speaker 1: Neither I nor this podcast is intended to relitigate the

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Speaker 1: issues at trial. The jury has spoken. This is about

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Speaker 1: what the case looks like from the inside looking out.

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Speaker 1: The case was extensively litigated by very good lawyers on

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Speaker 1: both sides. A jury reached a verdict, and it's not

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Speaker 1: our place to relitigate those issues. But we do want

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Speaker 1: to bring you inside the case for an insider's look

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Speaker 1: at the case of the State of Georgia versus Justin

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Speaker 1: Ross Harris. Place your left hand on the bay Bible

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Speaker 1: and Andre's your right hand and repeat after me. I

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Speaker 1: solemnly swear the jury trying it defended, not scared and

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Speaker 1: a rob the country. It makes no sense if it

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Speaker 1: doesn't fit your must equipped judge. You are the last

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Speaker 1: line of reason in this case. Very one of those

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Speaker 1: to all the apothis and we're sworn to uphold of

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Speaker 1: the Constitution. From Tenderfoot TV in Atlanta. This is Sworn.

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Speaker 1: I'm your host, Philip Holloway. After releasing the first episode

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Speaker 1: of the Death of Cooper Harris, I received a very

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Speaker 1: interesting and unexpected phone call. It was from Leanna Taylor,

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Speaker 1: the ex wife of Ross Harris and mother to Cooper Harris.

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Speaker 1: As fate would have it, she was a listener of

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Speaker 1: Sworn herself, and she asked to speak with me for

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Speaker 1: the podcast. I am Leanna Taylor, and Cooper is my son,

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Speaker 1: and I'm the ex wife of Ross Hairs. When this

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Speaker 1: case first started, how were you made aware of your

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Speaker 1: son's death? I was told by a detectives that came

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Speaker 1: to Ross's workplace. I was not able to find my

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Speaker 1: son at daycare. He wasn't there, and I was frantically

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Speaker 1: trying to get in touch with Ross and was not

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Speaker 1: able to And eventually, after trying to find him at

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Speaker 1: work when his cell phone wouldn't connect, got a security

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Speaker 1: guard involved and a daycare worker from Cooper's staycare, and

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Speaker 1: we weren't able to locate him. We knew that he

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Speaker 1: had left work and that was That was it, but

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Speaker 1: we weren't able to locate exactly where he was, where

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Speaker 1: Ross was, And eventually I've a phone call from an

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Speaker 1: unknown number and when I answered it, it was the

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Speaker 1: detective of Cobb County basically telling me to stay where

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Speaker 1: I was, that they were going to come to me,

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Speaker 1: but they wouldn't tell me what was going on. They

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Speaker 1: wouldn't tell me, you know, if Cooper was okay or

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Speaker 1: if Ross was okay. I didn't know any details. I

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Speaker 1: didn't know what had happened. So they came to Ross's office,

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Speaker 1: which is where I was at the time, took me

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Speaker 1: into a room and basically told me what had happened.

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Speaker 1: What was that like? Can you describe what you felt

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Speaker 1: in that moment? It was awful. I mean I spent

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Speaker 1: about I spent about thirty minutes in this state of

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Speaker 1: mind of not knowing where Cooper was or what was

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Speaker 1: going on, and uh, I knew in my heart that

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Speaker 1: something had happened. I knew that something bad had happened,

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Speaker 1: and you're just kind of in the state of maybe

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Speaker 1: I'm overreacting, maybe I'm thinking the worst, but a part

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Speaker 1: of my brain was still working. It was still you know,

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Speaker 1: thinking of a Cooper should have been at daycare. Something's

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Speaker 1: really really wrong. And by the time they got there,

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Speaker 1: I had got myself. I was worked up on the inside,

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Speaker 1: but not on the outside. I was going through all

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Speaker 1: the scenarios in my head. I mean, I've seen video

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Speaker 1: of myself up here very calm, but only inside I was.

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Speaker 1: I was very distraught. When they got there, it was

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Speaker 1: it was kind of like a dream state. It was

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Speaker 1: very odd experience. I felt pretty much like I was floating.

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Speaker 1: It felt very much like you feel in a dream

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Speaker 1: when it feels extremely real but you know something really

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Speaker 1: really bad is off. It just felt very foreign, just

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Speaker 1: really odd. You're knowing that something that you're about to

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Speaker 1: get told some really bad news, and there's nothing you

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Speaker 1: can do about it. There's nothing you can do to

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Speaker 1: stop it, and there's nothing you can do to change it.

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Speaker 1: It's just happening. It's almost kind of like being swept

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Speaker 1: up in a in a wave and being pulled under.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you can't stop it. There's nothing you can do.

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Speaker 1: It's just happening. Well, obviously, we know this case was

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Speaker 1: a very high profile case and lots of things were

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Speaker 1: speculated about and lots was made about statements and conversations

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Speaker 1: that you had with your now ex husband, particularly in

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Speaker 1: the police holding cell. There was a conversation where you

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Speaker 1: were heard to ask him, did you say too much?

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Speaker 1: What did you mean by that? I want to be

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Speaker 1: very clear in the fact that I was legitimately out

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Speaker 1: of my mind. I I was so confused. I didn't

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Speaker 1: show any of that on the outside, and that tends

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Speaker 1: to be my personality anyway. I'm just I'm not a

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Speaker 1: very openly emotional person. I keep a lot of stuff internalized.

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Speaker 1: I had a lot of thoughts running through my head,

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Speaker 1: and I was very confused. I had just been told

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Speaker 1: that my son had died. I'd been told how he died,

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Speaker 1: and I couldn't make sense of anything, really, you know.

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Speaker 1: I had Ross sitting in front of me telling me

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Speaker 1: that he was going to be charged, and I couldn't

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Speaker 1: reconcile that either. And when you're sitting there in a

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Speaker 1: state of mind where you're really you're really not believing

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Speaker 1: what's happening, you're trying to, at least I was trying

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Speaker 1: to figure out, Okay, how what's going on, How is

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Speaker 1: this happening? How are they charging him? I didn't believe

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Speaker 1: that it was intentional. I believe that it was was

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Speaker 1: an accident. And that was kind of the mindset that

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Speaker 1: I had. And I knew Ross, and I knew the

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Speaker 1: kind of person that he was personality wise, and I

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Speaker 1: knew that he talked a lot, and I knew that

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Speaker 1: he would carry on a conversation, you know, longer than needed.

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Speaker 1: I guess she could say. The only thing that I

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Speaker 1: could think in my head is if they're charging him

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Speaker 1: with this, then he must have said something that made

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Speaker 1: him look guilty in a way. And I didn't because

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Speaker 1: I didn't understand the charges of the time. I wouldn't

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Speaker 1: have been able to understand it if they had clearly

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Speaker 1: explained it to me, which I'm sure they did. I

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Speaker 1: wasn't in a mental or emotional state to really understand

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Speaker 1: what was happening. And that's the only thing that I

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Speaker 1: could think. Ross said something to make him sounds guilty

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Speaker 1: in a way, and now they're charging him. And so

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Speaker 1: that's basically what came out of my mouth. Did you

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Speaker 1: say too much? And I didn't preface that statement with anything.

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Speaker 1: The thoughts in my head were going, and I just,

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Speaker 1: you know, just said, well, did you say too much,

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Speaker 1: and I can see where that could be seen as

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Speaker 1: a suspicious statement, you know, now looking back on it

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Speaker 1: and knowing the circumstances at the time, I mean I

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Speaker 1: was I was not thinking about a video camera in there.

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Speaker 1: I wasn't thinking about an audio recording. I was thinking

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Speaker 1: about my son being gone and my husband at the

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Speaker 1: time being arrested for his murder. And that's the only

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Speaker 1: thing that I was thinking about. I wasn't trying to

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Speaker 1: do anything that sounded suspicious or didn't sound suspicious. I

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Speaker 1: truly was just in that moment and trying to understand

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Speaker 1: what was happening in that situation. I was just trying

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Speaker 1: to understand what was happening in that situation. What would

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Speaker 1: you have to say to the people who watched this

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Speaker 1: case closely and who saw that recording of that conversation

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Speaker 1: in the holding cell and felt like your attention was

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Speaker 1: improperly focused more on your husband than on your late child.

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Speaker 1: What would you say to those people? I would say

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Speaker 1: that you have no idea how you're going to react

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Speaker 1: in any given situation until you're in that situation. If

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Speaker 1: I had been told a month before that this is

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Speaker 1: going to happen to you, I would have told them

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Speaker 1: that they would have had to put me in a

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Speaker 1: mental institution, that there's no way I would have been

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Speaker 1: able to survive it. But we have an ability, our

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Speaker 1: bodies and brains have an ability to overcome things in

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Speaker 1: our lives that we never would have thought was possible.

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Speaker 1: And in that situation, I'm very much a kind of

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Speaker 1: person that I'm trying to fix what's going on right

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Speaker 1: in front of me, and the only thing that was

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Speaker 1: in front of me it was Ross, and that was

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Speaker 1: the only thing that I knew to focus on. Was

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Speaker 1: you know, at that time, you've got to people have

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Speaker 1: got to understand it. At that time, I was a

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Speaker 1: I was a wife, and yes my husband was cheating

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Speaker 1: on me, but I didn't know that at the time.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure my reaction would have probably been different had

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Speaker 1: that been knowledge that I had at the time. I

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Speaker 1: didn't have any of that knowledge, and so for all

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Speaker 1: intentsive purposes, I was speaking to my husband that I

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Speaker 1: trusted and that I didn't feel had done this on purpose.

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Speaker 1: And I'm a nurturing type of person anyway, that was

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Speaker 1: just a default mode that I went into. Ross was

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Speaker 1: in front of me, and the there wasn't anything that

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Speaker 1: I could do for Cooper. And I don't mean that

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Speaker 1: the way it maybe sounds two people, but there was

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Speaker 1: nothing that I could do Cooper at that point. It

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Speaker 1: was too late. The only thing that I could do

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Speaker 1: was trying to help Ross at the time. I want

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Speaker 1: to fast forward just a minute to Cooper's funeral, and

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Speaker 1: at the funeral when you were giving, in essence a eulogy,

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Speaker 1: the media was there and it was everything was recorded,

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Speaker 1: and so that it was audio that was broadcast of

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Speaker 1: basically you saying words to the effect that you would

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Speaker 1: not bring Cooper back if you could, but that Ross

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Speaker 1: was a good father and you would you would have

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Speaker 1: another child with him. People found that to be an

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Speaker 1: unusual statement, and a lot of people found it to

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Speaker 1: be a suspicious statement. What would you say to those

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Speaker 1: people and what did you mean by that? I can

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Speaker 1: understand how that could be taken a couple of different ways.

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Speaker 1: I can playing it in the way that I am

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Speaker 1: a Christian and I'm very strong in my faith, and

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Speaker 1: we believe as Christians that when you die, especially children,

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Speaker 1: we believe that they go immediately to heaven, and heaven

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Speaker 1: is a place of paradise, it's the place of no

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Speaker 1: tears and no pain. And as a mother who is

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Speaker 1: burying her child, I was trying to be unselfish, and

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Speaker 1: I was still in a very strange mental state at

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Speaker 1: that point. I was I was not emotionally stainable. I

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Speaker 1: was not mentally stable in any way. And it's not

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Speaker 1: like I've said anything with the intention of people taking

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Speaker 1: it and picking it apart and trying to make something

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Speaker 1: that it wasn't. But as a parent, if your child

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Speaker 1: is experiencing something amazing like heaven, that's paradise, it would

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Speaker 1: be selfish for you to to pull them back from that.

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Speaker 1: But I don't want that to be confused with the

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Speaker 1: fact that if I could have prevented what happened to

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Speaker 1: Cooper opening the Cooper, I would have prevented it. I

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Speaker 1: would have prevented him that pain. I would have prevented

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Speaker 1: him that suffering. I would have never chosen that for

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Speaker 1: him in any way. I think that what I said

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Speaker 1: was just kind of taken out of the context that

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Speaker 1: I meant it in. I really don't know how to

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Speaker 1: explain it other than the fact that I believe that

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Speaker 1: Cooper's in heaven. I believe that he's there now, and

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Speaker 1: I believe that heaven is a much better place than

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Speaker 1: we live on earth, and that it would be selfish

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Speaker 1: of me to pull him back from that now as

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Speaker 1: a selfish human, because I am a selfish human. Do

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Speaker 1: I wish I had my son right now? Absolutely? I

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Speaker 1: mean I'm having to watch my friends who had children

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Speaker 1: around the same time I had Cooper send to their

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Speaker 1: children off to kindergarten this year. I'll never see him

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Speaker 1: do that. I'll never see him play ball, I'll never

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Speaker 1: see him graduate from high school. I'll never dance with

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Speaker 1: him at his wedding like I'll I'll never have those

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Speaker 1: experiences with him, and I want that. I wanted that

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Speaker 1: with him, and and I can't have that. So selfishly

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Speaker 1: I want those things and it hurts me every single day.

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Speaker 1: What was it like for you personally? What did it

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Speaker 1: feel like? What was your life like when you were

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Speaker 1: living under this cloud of suspicion that you ultimately were

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Speaker 1: cleared from but it took a while. What was that like? Well,

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Speaker 1: I do want to be clear about something before I

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Speaker 1: do elaborate on that, and and that's the fact that

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Speaker 1: I don't I don't view myself as a victim in

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Speaker 1: this case. I don't live my life with a victim mentality,

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Speaker 1: but there have been some tragic and terrible things happened

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Speaker 1: in my life that are just facts of my life.

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Speaker 1: And sometimes when I talk about those things, people get

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Speaker 1: the idea that I'm playing the victim card. That's not

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Speaker 1: the case, so I just wanted to kind of clarify

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Speaker 1: that before I did give details on this. It was

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Speaker 1: very difficult to be and I was simultaneously mourning the

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Speaker 1: loss of my child and dealing with the fact that

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Speaker 1: my husband was in jail. You know, when you have

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Speaker 1: bad things happen in your life, the world doesn't stop.

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Speaker 1: You think it should, but it doesn't stop, and you

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Speaker 1: still have responsibilities as an adult. And then finding out

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Speaker 1: that you know, not only am I having to deal

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Speaker 1: with the loss of my son in the absence of

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Speaker 1: my husband being in jail, now I'm a suspect, and

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Speaker 1: it was very difficult to deal with. I'm an only child,

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Speaker 1: my mother's only child, and I had to prepare her,

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Speaker 1: who had just buried her only grandchild. I had to

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Speaker 1: prepare her for me possibly getting arrested. It was a

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Speaker 1: legitimate concern. I was advised to get an attorney. I

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Speaker 1: got on an attorney. It was probably one of the

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Speaker 1: smartest things that I did in my situation. And then

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Speaker 1: I had to prepare my family for my possible arrest.

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Speaker 1: It was horrible because I was trying to keep it

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Speaker 1: together for multiple people in my life. I was trying

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Speaker 1: to be strong. I was trying to stay on my

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Speaker 1: feet and prepare them for this possible nick really horrible

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Speaker 1: thing to happen, and I didn't know for a while

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Speaker 1: if that was going to be a reality for me.

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Speaker 1: And sitting there knowing that I had absolutely nothing to

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Speaker 1: do with this other than the fact that Cooper was

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Speaker 1: my son, it was terrified. At the time, it was

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Speaker 1: an average thirty year old dietitian, just you know, mom,

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Speaker 1: just working and taking care of Cooper and being a wife,

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Speaker 1: and within a day everything changed. Where were you living

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Speaker 1: and what were you doing to get by? Ross was

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Speaker 1: the breadwinner of our household. I mean, he was the

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Speaker 1: full time worker. He was the one that the majority

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Speaker 1: of our income came from. He held our health insurance.

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Speaker 1: I was just an as needed employee at the time,

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Speaker 1: and I had family in Tescaloosa, and I had a

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Speaker 1: position come open with the company. That I was with

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Speaker 1: around that time. Actually the position was open before everything happened,

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Speaker 1: and when it happened, I made the decision and to

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Speaker 1: move back to the Tuscaloosa area and be close to

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Speaker 1: my family so that I would have that family support system,

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Speaker 1: but also so that I could have full time employment.

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Speaker 1: It was September of two thousand and fourteen that I

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Speaker 1: officially moved back to the Tuscaloosa area and I started

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Speaker 1: working full time towards the end of September. Like I said,

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Speaker 1: the world doesn't stop moving, and it was good for

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Speaker 1: me actually to get back into a routine of some kind,

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Speaker 1: something to keep me busy and and try to keep

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Speaker 1: my mind off of things. So I just I went

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Speaker 1: back to work about ninety days after everything happened, and

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Speaker 1: it was probably one of the good things that I

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Speaker 1: did for myself at that time was to get back

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Speaker 1: to work and just basically keep yourself busy because you can't.

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Speaker 1: There was nothing about the situation that I could change.

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Speaker 1: It was completely out of my control. I had zero power,

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Speaker 1: and my goal was basically at the time to put

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Speaker 1: one foot in front of the other and keep moving.

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Speaker 1: And that's what I did, and that's honestly, that's what

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Speaker 1: I do today. People always say that it gets better,

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Speaker 1: that time hills those kinds of wounds, but it's just

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Speaker 1: not true. It's it doesn't get better. You just learn

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Speaker 1: to live with it. You just learned to live with

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Speaker 1: the pain. That's what I did. I just learned to

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Speaker 1: keep going despite what was going on in my life.

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Speaker 1: Tell us about your son. I only got twenty two

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Speaker 1: months with him, but they were probably the best twenty

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Speaker 1: two months of my entire life. He had such a

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Speaker 1: adventurous personality. I guess he could say he um. He

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Speaker 1: was a happy child. He was very personable. He he

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Speaker 1: wasn't scared of strangers, he wasn't scared of new people.

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Speaker 1: He was just very loving towards just about anybody. We

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Speaker 1: used to joke with the daycare workers he had a

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Speaker 1: lot of incident reports written up on him, and they

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Speaker 1: do instant reports any time a child gets a boo

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Speaker 1: boo at the day care, and and he would. He

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Speaker 1: would have very frequent falls and stuff at daycare, and

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Speaker 1: we used to joke with them that he probably had

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Speaker 1: one of the largest incident report files in the daycare

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Speaker 1: because we would get a call several times a week

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Speaker 1: that Cooper climbed on the table and bumped his head

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Speaker 1: or I mean he was trying to climb on the

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Speaker 1: tables in daycare before he was walking. He was just fun.

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Speaker 1: I mean, he was a pretty laid back child. We

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Speaker 1: we took a trip when he was five months old,

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Speaker 1: a road trip from Atlanta, Georgia, down to Miami, Florida,

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Speaker 1: when he was only five months old, and he was

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Speaker 1: just he was just a joy. I mean, he would

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Speaker 1: get fuzzy, but it didn't last very long. I think

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Speaker 1: about now what he would be like, and that is

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Speaker 1: he would be five now. He would have turned five

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Speaker 1: on August two, and I think about all the time.

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Speaker 1: You know, what would he be like now, how tall

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Speaker 1: would he be? You know, what would his favorite things be?

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Speaker 1: What would he be enjoyed. It's hard to know that

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Speaker 1: I'll never know those things because I think that he

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Speaker 1: would have grown to a very lovable and loving child

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Speaker 1: and been into an adult. I think you would have

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Speaker 1: been a very loving, caring personal. One day, let's talk

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Speaker 1: about some things that you learned about your ex husband

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00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:27,280
Speaker 1: during the course of the investigation. Did you have any

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Speaker 1: idea prior to the days Cooper died that your husband

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Speaker 1: might be unfaithful. I had suspicions because of some of

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Speaker 1: the problems that we've had in our marriage prior to that.

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00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:45,959
Speaker 1: I didn't know that he had been unfaithful to me physically.

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Speaker 1: I knew that there were some issues with pornography, and

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Speaker 1: there was an occasion of some sexting that I had

342
00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:55,400
Speaker 1: discovered in two thousand and ten, But I didn't know

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Speaker 1: that he was actually having physical affairs with multiple women.

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Speaker 1: I didn't know that out based on those issues that

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00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:04,679
Speaker 1: you were aware of, had you sought counseling or any

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00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:10,359
Speaker 1: type of marital assistance to get past those things? We did.

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00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:14,360
Speaker 1: Neither one of us were really interested in divorce. It's

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00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:17,800
Speaker 1: strange to say, but we actually had a very good marriage.

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Speaker 1: We didn't fight, we didn't have problems, We co parented

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Speaker 1: very well, We got along very well. The only aspect

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Speaker 1: which was very clear from the trial was intimacy issues.

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Speaker 1: That Faily way I really know how to categorize it,

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Speaker 1: is that we had issues with intimacy, and that has

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Speaker 1: been going on for several years, and so when I

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00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:42,720
Speaker 1: had the most recent discovery of him using pornography, probably

356
00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:46,240
Speaker 1: in two thousand twelve or maybe two thousand thirteen. Honestly

357
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Speaker 1: can't remember. We did seek professional counseling from a license

358
00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:53,520
Speaker 1: sex therapist to try to kill some of the damage

359
00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:57,000
Speaker 1: that had occurred in our relationship because of the pornography addiction.

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00:20:57,720 --> 00:20:59,639
Speaker 1: I think we've been in counseling a little over each

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00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:05,480
Speaker 1: year when it happened. What was it like learning later

362
00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:10,080
Speaker 1: what you learned about, what really was another life that

363
00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:12,280
Speaker 1: you were not aware of that your husband was living.

364
00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:16,439
Speaker 1: I don't think of it in my head as another life,

365
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Speaker 1: but I can see how people can see it that way,

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Speaker 1: But I don't think about it that way in my head.

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00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:24,119
Speaker 1: The intimacy issues in our marriage that we had that

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00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:28,000
Speaker 1: were ultimately called by his infidelity to me, it was

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00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:30,760
Speaker 1: evidence of that betrayal. I just didn't know that that

370
00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:34,320
Speaker 1: betrayal was there, but there was evidence of it in

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Speaker 1: our lack of intimacy and relationship, and there were signs,

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Speaker 1: I guess you could say there were signs that there

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Speaker 1: was a problem. I just didn't exactly know what that

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00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:48,000
Speaker 1: problem was. Those little bits of evidence that there was

375
00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:52,280
Speaker 1: a problem they showed through I just didn't know exactly

376
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Speaker 1: what was causing those problems at the time. Now hindsight

377
00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:59,800
Speaker 1: is like they say, it's very easy to look back

378
00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:03,800
Speaker 1: on our relationship now and say, well, that's exactly why

379
00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:06,639
Speaker 1: we never could overcome the problems that we had because

380
00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:11,040
Speaker 1: he was he was engaging in multiple affairs with multiple women.

381
00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:15,440
Speaker 1: You learned, I guess from law enforcement or other sources

382
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Speaker 1: that your husband had in fact been sexting with multiple

383
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Speaker 1: women and engaging in sex acts with prostitutes. When did

384
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Speaker 1: you learn those things, and when you did, how did

385
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Speaker 1: you react to it? So the initial information that got

386
00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:38,360
Speaker 1: regarding his extramarital affairs was at the Problem of Cause Hearing. However,

387
00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:40,800
Speaker 1: there were some things said in the Problem Cause Hearing

388
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Speaker 1: that I knew were not true because they involved me,

389
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Speaker 1: And when that happened, I had a immediate distrust in

390
00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:52,520
Speaker 1: the law enforcement, and I didn't necessarily believe what they

391
00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:54,479
Speaker 1: were saying because I knew that they had said some

392
00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:56,560
Speaker 1: things about me that was was not true, and I

393
00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:59,080
Speaker 1: didn't know where they drew the line. So at that

394
00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:01,439
Speaker 1: time didn't know what was true, and I didn't know

395
00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:06,320
Speaker 1: what wasn't true, And there were no conversations between Ross's

396
00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:11,520
Speaker 1: attorney and myself about those things because of confidentiality, So

397
00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:16,000
Speaker 1: I did not find out until much later the truth

398
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Speaker 1: about some of those accusations at the time, and I

399
00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:23,760
Speaker 1: would say it was probably closer to the end of

400
00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:28,720
Speaker 1: two thousands, fifteens before I found out exactly how extensive

401
00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:33,200
Speaker 1: Ross's extramarital affairs were, and it was probably about six

402
00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:37,280
Speaker 1: months after that information was getting demeded. I thought the

403
00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:40,640
Speaker 1: divorce was that an easy thing to do, filing for divorce.

404
00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:43,600
Speaker 1: Many people might say that you should have done it

405
00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:48,200
Speaker 1: much sooner, right. I've seen different comments from different people

406
00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:51,119
Speaker 1: about that, about me doing it. They didn't like the

407
00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:53,720
Speaker 1: timing of it. My job in any of this was

408
00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:56,240
Speaker 1: not to please anybody. I did things on my own

409
00:23:56,280 --> 00:24:00,639
Speaker 1: time and what I could cope with. I was feeling

410
00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:04,000
Speaker 1: and reeling with the fact that my son was gone

411
00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:06,520
Speaker 1: and when I got there, you know, the rest of

412
00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:09,760
Speaker 1: the story and the rest of the information. So for

413
00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:12,960
Speaker 1: me personally, I had to work through that. I had to.

414
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Speaker 1: There was a lot of thinking and a lot of

415
00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:18,679
Speaker 1: contemplating about, you know, each thing that I was told.

416
00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:20,520
Speaker 1: It took me a while to come to terms with it.

417
00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:23,000
Speaker 1: I guess you could say I had to. I had

418
00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:25,719
Speaker 1: to come around to the fact that my husband had

419
00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:30,880
Speaker 1: been extremely unfaithful to me, and once I came two

420
00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:33,840
Speaker 1: terms with it all, it was an easy decision. It

421
00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:36,680
Speaker 1: wasn't a hard decision to make. Once I made that decision,

422
00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:39,520
Speaker 1: it was done. I did not waver, it wasn't questioned.

423
00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:41,880
Speaker 1: I mean, I can remember the day that I made

424
00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:44,879
Speaker 1: the decision. I went into counseling one day with my

425
00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:47,560
Speaker 1: therapist that I was seeing twice a month at that time,

426
00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:50,879
Speaker 1: and and I didn't go in there with the intention of,

427
00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:52,840
Speaker 1: you know, talking about getting a divorced, and I don't

428
00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:54,639
Speaker 1: even think we really talked about it that much. But

429
00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:57,679
Speaker 1: when I walked out, the decision was made and it

430
00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:00,400
Speaker 1: was done. It wasn't necessarily a hard decisi And it's

431
00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:03,320
Speaker 1: just I had to I had to come to terms

432
00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:05,560
Speaker 1: with everything that had happened in my life. I had

433
00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:08,679
Speaker 1: to come to terms with basically the fact that my

434
00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:12,040
Speaker 1: life blew up in my face and I lost everything.

435
00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:14,720
Speaker 1: I mean, I lost everything in one day, and I

436
00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:16,280
Speaker 1: had to come to terms with all of that. And

437
00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:19,120
Speaker 1: that's a difficult thing to come to terms with when

438
00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:22,320
Speaker 1: you're thirty and your your life has basically just started.

439
00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:25,400
Speaker 1: So the once I did, it wasn't a difficult decision

440
00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:28,920
Speaker 1: it was. It was hard only because when you've been

441
00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:31,200
Speaker 1: married to somebody for almost a decade, and we have

442
00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:33,680
Speaker 1: been dating since I was in my early twenties, and

443
00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:35,879
Speaker 1: probably I think you started dating when I was twenty

444
00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:37,960
Speaker 1: and I was thirty at the time. I mean, his

445
00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:42,399
Speaker 1: family had become my family and had been my second

446
00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:45,080
Speaker 1: family for a third of my life. And it was

447
00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:48,439
Speaker 1: a difficult decision to make because of those aspects that

448
00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:51,520
Speaker 1: when you looked at the facts of it, and I

449
00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:54,320
Speaker 1: just couldn't, regardless of what was going to happen in

450
00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:56,720
Speaker 1: the future with a trial, regardless of any of that,

451
00:25:57,040 --> 00:26:01,639
Speaker 1: I could not reconcile with being deceived that severely for

452
00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:05,439
Speaker 1: that long. What was it like, some two years or

453
00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:11,359
Speaker 1: so after the fact, to have to drive to Brunswick, Georgia,

454
00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:14,959
Speaker 1: to go into a courtroom full of people that you

455
00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:20,360
Speaker 1: don't know and relive this. I really don't know any

456
00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:23,520
Speaker 1: way to explain it other than absolutely horrible. I mean,

457
00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:27,520
Speaker 1: it was a torturous experience. When you go through something

458
00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:30,640
Speaker 1: like that in your life, that traumatic, and you get

459
00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:32,919
Speaker 1: to a point where you feel like you're able to

460
00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:36,439
Speaker 1: move forward, it's almost like starting your life over again.

461
00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:39,200
Speaker 1: I couldn't do that until the trial was over with.

462
00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:42,520
Speaker 1: I couldn't move forward in many ways until that was

463
00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:45,959
Speaker 1: behind me, because I knew that as soon as I

464
00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:48,840
Speaker 1: got up on that stand and had to start reliving

465
00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:52,760
Speaker 1: that day and that experience, that it would be a

466
00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:57,639
Speaker 1: secondary traumatic experience. Everything that I said was going to

467
00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:00,879
Speaker 1: be picked apart. It does not at or you know,

468
00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:05,320
Speaker 1: what my intentions have been in any of this process, situation,

469
00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:09,600
Speaker 1: of these experiencesiness that I've had every time I opened

470
00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:13,720
Speaker 1: my mouth, I say something that is is taken wrong

471
00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:16,959
Speaker 1: by somebody. It's not my job to please everybody. I

472
00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:20,080
Speaker 1: can't please everybody, And if somebody is going to think something,

473
00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:22,400
Speaker 1: then they're going to think it is. That's not my problem.

474
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:25,359
Speaker 1: I can't change that. For the most part, I didn't know,

475
00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:28,159
Speaker 1: you know, what was coming next. I didn't know, you know,

476
00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:29,639
Speaker 1: what they were gonna do. I didn't know if they

477
00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:32,280
Speaker 1: were going to try to show me pictures. I didn't

478
00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:33,919
Speaker 1: know if they were going to try to show me

479
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:36,639
Speaker 1: things that I was not going to physically be able

480
00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:40,800
Speaker 1: to be able to witness and see. It was scary

481
00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:43,679
Speaker 1: what happened when you walked out of the courtroom the

482
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:46,600
Speaker 1: first day, when I walked out of the courtroom, I

483
00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:49,760
Speaker 1: I basically just wrote down there was a result of

484
00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:54,400
Speaker 1: me trying to hold it together for an entire eight

485
00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:58,040
Speaker 1: hour period, and when I walked off, it just all

486
00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:01,119
Speaker 1: came out. I was in the company a few people

487
00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:04,000
Speaker 1: that are close to me, and one of them was

488
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:07,040
Speaker 1: my attorney, and he had never seen me like that.

489
00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:09,200
Speaker 1: He had never seen me in that kind of state.

490
00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:12,920
Speaker 1: I couldn't stop crying, I couldn't breathe. It was a

491
00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:16,720
Speaker 1: good thirty minutes of just of them just basically trying

492
00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:18,880
Speaker 1: to get me to start breathing again. It just all

493
00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:21,720
Speaker 1: came out. At one time. You reached out to me

494
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:27,840
Speaker 1: after you heard part one of this podcast. Why did

495
00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:31,560
Speaker 1: you do that? I think that the main thing that

496
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:35,040
Speaker 1: really struck me with something that Chuck Boring said in

497
00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:40,120
Speaker 1: the first episode about how a lot of times, especially

498
00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:43,080
Speaker 1: child victims, don't have anybody there for them at trial,

499
00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:46,480
Speaker 1: and they don't have anybody to speak for them. And

500
00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:51,560
Speaker 1: that was never my intentions with Cooper to not I

501
00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:54,960
Speaker 1: was there for him during the trial, and that was

502
00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:57,520
Speaker 1: never my intention in any of this for it to

503
00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:02,719
Speaker 1: appear as though I was supportive of my son throughout

504
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:07,120
Speaker 1: the trial. I believe you testified that Ross ruined your life.

505
00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:10,480
Speaker 1: Do you still feel that way? I mean, yeah, She's

506
00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:13,960
Speaker 1: the reason why I don't have my son anymore. And

507
00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:18,720
Speaker 1: the actions that he took during our marriage and being

508
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:23,640
Speaker 1: unfaithful to me, there's a reason that everything else happened.

509
00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:28,360
Speaker 1: If those extramarital affairs were what made him appear and

510
00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:31,640
Speaker 1: look like to be a very bad person, if it

511
00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:34,240
Speaker 1: had just been Cooper, if it had just been losing Cooper,

512
00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:36,080
Speaker 1: that would have been bad enough. I mean, that was

513
00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:38,640
Speaker 1: that would have been enough to have to deal with.

514
00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:42,200
Speaker 1: It just kept getting worse and worse and worse, and

515
00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:44,080
Speaker 1: most of that was because of the things that he

516
00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:47,560
Speaker 1: was doing outside of our marriage, and so I stand

517
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:50,360
Speaker 1: by that statement. He's a big part of why I

518
00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:53,000
Speaker 1: hurt the way that I did today. How did you

519
00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:57,120
Speaker 1: become a listener a Swan? I travel a lot for work.

520
00:29:57,120 --> 00:29:59,360
Speaker 1: I've spent about eight hours in my car every week

521
00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:02,840
Speaker 1: committing to work. And it was suggested by a friend

522
00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:05,560
Speaker 1: that I listened to have been vanished, and so I

523
00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:07,840
Speaker 1: started listening to that a couple of months ago, and

524
00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:12,280
Speaker 1: basically Binge listened to most of the episodes and eventually

525
00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:14,760
Speaker 1: caught up to real time and you know, didn't have

526
00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:17,600
Speaker 1: to wait for the episodes to come out. That's where

527
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:20,440
Speaker 1: I found out about Born And so when Thorne started up,

528
00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:23,520
Speaker 1: I migrated over to that podcast and I started listening

529
00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:26,320
Speaker 1: to it and listened to the first couple of episodes

530
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:29,720
Speaker 1: and never crossed my mind that you would have an

531
00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:33,000
Speaker 1: episode on Cooper. And then you know, I listened to

532
00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:36,680
Speaker 1: the trailer of the next episode and and realized what

533
00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:39,320
Speaker 1: it's going to be about. I actually didn't see the

534
00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:43,120
Speaker 1: trailer until the day that the episode dropped. The first episode,

535
00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:47,800
Speaker 1: so uh, Jerry cautiously listened to it. I had made

536
00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:49,640
Speaker 1: somebody listen to it with me, because I don't like

537
00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:54,520
Speaker 1: to over listen to things that it's been involved Cooper

538
00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:59,640
Speaker 1: and and our situation without support of some kinds. I

539
00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:01,880
Speaker 1: had to about you listen to it with me. I

540
00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:05,320
Speaker 1: was surprised at the impartiality of it. It seems with

541
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:09,280
Speaker 1: our situation, you either follow on one side or the other,

542
00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:12,800
Speaker 1: and the and the media to begin with was very

543
00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:15,680
Speaker 1: They didn't have any trouble following on one side or

544
00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:18,280
Speaker 1: the other, and they made no apologies for that. And

545
00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:21,880
Speaker 1: any time I hear anything about our our story that

546
00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:27,840
Speaker 1: is obviously trying very hard to be impartial and and

547
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:30,880
Speaker 1: look at those sides of it. I'm very respectful of that,

548
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:34,880
Speaker 1: and I appreciate that very much because it is very

549
00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:39,720
Speaker 1: difficult to be on the hate side of a mob.

550
00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:42,960
Speaker 1: That's basically what I've experienced for a lot of the

551
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:45,000
Speaker 1: past three years of my life is being on the

552
00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:49,400
Speaker 1: hate side of a mob, and not a physical mob,

553
00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:53,560
Speaker 1: but a social media mob. Do you see any parallels

554
00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:59,560
Speaker 1: in your stories and listening to have been vanished? Obviously

555
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:02,520
Speaker 1: I did listened to it in a way to you know,

556
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:05,520
Speaker 1: have something to listen to all the way to work,

557
00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:09,240
Speaker 1: and a lot of people see the true crime podcasts

558
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:12,200
Speaker 1: as a form of entertainment, and obviously that's how I

559
00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:16,080
Speaker 1: viewed up and Vanish. But I never I never forgot

560
00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:19,480
Speaker 1: the fact that these were real people, that Terror was

561
00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:23,400
Speaker 1: somebody's daughter, and that she was lost and they didn't

562
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:25,640
Speaker 1: know where she was for you know, ten plus years,

563
00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:29,320
Speaker 1: and and it's it's the pain that they experienced. I

564
00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:32,120
Speaker 1: can relate to that very much. But to think, the

565
00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:35,880
Speaker 1: thing that really really got me were the episodes on

566
00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:40,479
Speaker 1: Marcus Harper, and especially after they actually made an arrest

567
00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:43,320
Speaker 1: in the case, you know, after he was basically found

568
00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:47,840
Speaker 1: to not be involved in her disappearance. I remember, you know,

569
00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:50,240
Speaker 1: listening to those episodes and thinking, oh, my gosh, I

570
00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:52,880
Speaker 1: know how he feels. I know, I know what that

571
00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:56,560
Speaker 1: feels like. For people to think that you were complicit

572
00:32:56,600 --> 00:33:00,760
Speaker 1: in something horrible happening to somebody that you've loved. That's

573
00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:04,280
Speaker 1: a very difficult place to be in emotionally, to know

574
00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:08,880
Speaker 1: that people think that you're capable of something so horrible,

575
00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:15,000
Speaker 1: and that people legitimately believe it. They're not leaving that

576
00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:18,560
Speaker 1: train of thoughts, and I just thought, man, I know, unfortunately,

577
00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:21,400
Speaker 1: know how he feels. I know what that feels like.

578
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:25,120
Speaker 1: So what is your life like now? Three years later?

579
00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:30,760
Speaker 1: It's a pretty normal, boring her life. I work as

580
00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:33,080
Speaker 1: a dietician with the same company that I worked with

581
00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:36,360
Speaker 1: before I left the Atlanta area. I try to find

582
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:39,760
Speaker 1: small joys in my life, in the relationships that I

583
00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:43,240
Speaker 1: have with my family and my friends. My perspective of

584
00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:46,080
Speaker 1: things is completely different now than it was three years ago.

585
00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:50,400
Speaker 1: I don't worry about little things that I used to

586
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:54,560
Speaker 1: worry about. I don't take for granted the people in

587
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:57,040
Speaker 1: my life and the people that I love. I wouldn't

588
00:33:57,040 --> 00:33:59,880
Speaker 1: say I've necessarily turned into a spontaneous person. That's not

589
00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:03,800
Speaker 1: my personality. But I definitely appreciate the little things in

590
00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:07,240
Speaker 1: life and I'm not going to take for granted anything

591
00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:10,920
Speaker 1: ever again, probably because when you have your most your

592
00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:14,319
Speaker 1: most precious thing in your life taken from you, and

593
00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:18,200
Speaker 1: nothing else can compare to that. There's you know, little

594
00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:23,120
Speaker 1: arguments or work difficulties in the scheme of things. They're nothing.

595
00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:27,480
Speaker 1: They're not worth getting worked up over losing sleepover, because

596
00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:31,240
Speaker 1: there are way worse things that can happen in your life.

597
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:34,920
Speaker 1: I guess just overall, I'm probably a more compassionate person.

598
00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:38,520
Speaker 1: I look at things differently, especially news stories when I

599
00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:40,839
Speaker 1: see them come on the news or see them pop

600
00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:45,000
Speaker 1: up on social media or newspapers or whatever. I think

601
00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:47,560
Speaker 1: about things well differently. I think about everybody in the

602
00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:51,960
Speaker 1: scenarios and what they're having to go through emotionally because

603
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:54,920
Speaker 1: of of that situation in their life. And so I

604
00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:58,120
Speaker 1: think I'm overall what compassionate person and just a more

605
00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:01,840
Speaker 1: appreciative person of a little things in life. What do

606
00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:06,400
Speaker 1: you say to people now that it's been publicly declare

607
00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:09,560
Speaker 1: that there's no evidence to suggest that you were involved

608
00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:13,719
Speaker 1: in Cooper's death. What do you say to people who

609
00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:17,799
Speaker 1: did or do still think that you had something to

610
00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:22,440
Speaker 1: do with Cooper's death. That is something that I've essentially

611
00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:27,600
Speaker 1: had to relieve myself up and move on from because

612
00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:31,600
Speaker 1: I can't change somebody's opinion. I can't change their fault

613
00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:34,680
Speaker 1: understanding of what happened. There's nothing that I can do

614
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:40,000
Speaker 1: to change that. But I would just urge people to

615
00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:46,280
Speaker 1: withhold judgment because unless you have walked in that person's shoes,

616
00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:50,000
Speaker 1: unless you have experience of things that they have experienced,

617
00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:53,520
Speaker 1: you have no idea what they're going through. You have

618
00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:55,920
Speaker 1: no idea what they've been through, and you have no

619
00:35:56,080 --> 00:36:00,440
Speaker 1: idea the pain that can be caused to the person

620
00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:03,440
Speaker 1: because of the things that you say and things that

621
00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:07,600
Speaker 1: you do with just what Chinee did, its information that

622
00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:10,960
Speaker 1: you have about their life. I mean, it's not your life,

623
00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:14,280
Speaker 1: it's not your experiences. And a lot of these people

624
00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:17,400
Speaker 1: that get so obsessed with these cases, for number one,

625
00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:19,600
Speaker 1: may need to be thankful, but it's not their situation

626
00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:22,200
Speaker 1: and not their life. And number two, they honestly just

627
00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:26,719
Speaker 1: need to move on because nothing is happening because they

628
00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:31,000
Speaker 1: are lashing out at somebody who has has been accused

629
00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:34,000
Speaker 1: of something that they ultimately didn't do. And you just

630
00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:38,960
Speaker 1: don't understand the emotional and mental damage that you can

631
00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:43,000
Speaker 1: inflict on somebody with something as simple as you know,

632
00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:49,080
Speaker 1: sending a extremely hateful or even threatening Facebook message. It's

633
00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:53,160
Speaker 1: not helpful in any way. Did you receive threats? Yes?

634
00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:57,439
Speaker 1: I did. Do you receive threats of physical harm? I did?

635
00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:03,839
Speaker 1: Of physical violence? Yeah? H How frequent was that a few?

636
00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:06,560
Speaker 1: There weren't as many as as Honestly I would have

637
00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:08,879
Speaker 1: thought there would have been. As bad as things got,

638
00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:12,520
Speaker 1: I was not on social media at the peak of

639
00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:16,600
Speaker 1: everything we're talking, and probably two years out people were

640
00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:23,080
Speaker 1: still very, very angry and very accusing of me, basically

641
00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:25,880
Speaker 1: things like I hope you burn in hell, you know,

642
00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:29,040
Speaker 1: think things like that of that nature. But the most

643
00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:32,560
Speaker 1: hateful one was, you know, basically threatening violence on me.

644
00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:36,160
Speaker 1: That's scary. I mean, to just be an average person

645
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:41,480
Speaker 1: there is experienced this, and for whatever reason, it became

646
00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:45,120
Speaker 1: national news. And then to just have random people sending

647
00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:49,280
Speaker 1: hateful things, it's an odd thing to experience. I've never

648
00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:52,080
Speaker 1: responded to anybody that's been hateful to me, and I

649
00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:55,960
Speaker 1: won't because it's not productive and it's not going to

650
00:37:56,080 --> 00:38:00,360
Speaker 1: solve anything. If somebody has an opinion, they haven't a opinion,

651
00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:03,360
Speaker 1: and that that is fine. I would just caution people

652
00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:07,880
Speaker 1: about actually reaching out to this person that you don't

653
00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:11,280
Speaker 1: know and trying to inflict further pain on them because

654
00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:13,920
Speaker 1: you just don't know their situation. You don't know, I mean,

655
00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:16,640
Speaker 1: he could be wrong, the information you have could be wrong,

656
00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:20,719
Speaker 1: and and you're just causing further damage regardless of what

657
00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:23,520
Speaker 1: you read in this case and this situation and the

658
00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:27,240
Speaker 1: your knowledge of it going into this podcast, that Cooper

659
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:30,239
Speaker 1: was a wanted child. He was very much wanted, and

660
00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:35,760
Speaker 1: he was absolutely loved and adored and cherished and nothing

661
00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:39,839
Speaker 1: will ever replace him. I mean, he was irreplaceable and

662
00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:56,320
Speaker 1: you can't be undone. I think it was rather serendipitous.

663
00:38:56,480 --> 00:38:59,480
Speaker 1: Who have gotten that phone call from Leanna. I couldn't

664
00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:02,040
Speaker 1: have asked for a more complete ending to our story

665
00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:05,760
Speaker 1: on Cooper. Now we've all had the chance to actually

666
00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:08,520
Speaker 1: hear from a family member and just about the closest

667
00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:12,040
Speaker 1: person to this case besides Justin Ross Harris. I think

668
00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:15,560
Speaker 1: what Leanna said about learning to deal with the media

669
00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:19,040
Speaker 1: is true. You can't always please everyone, and in a

670
00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:21,960
Speaker 1: case like this, everyone is going to have an opinion.

671
00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:25,279
Speaker 1: After a tragic case like this is over, perhaps the

672
00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:27,759
Speaker 1: only thing you can do is try your best to

673
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:34,759
Speaker 1: move on with your life. As some of you may know,

674
00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:38,439
Speaker 1: there's another podcast out there that covers the Justin Ross

675
00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:41,879
Speaker 1: Harris case. It's called Breakdown, and it covered the case

676
00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:46,200
Speaker 1: extensively up to real time during the trial. Today I

677
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:49,560
Speaker 1: talked with Bill Rinkin, the host of Breakdown and also

678
00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:52,920
Speaker 1: a reporter for the Atlanta Journal and Constitution. Bill is

679
00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:55,800
Speaker 1: extremely well versed on the case, having covered it in

680
00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:58,760
Speaker 1: two different mediums. He's here to talk with us about

681
00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:01,520
Speaker 1: his experience during the trial, as well as being in

682
00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:05,720
Speaker 1: the True Crown podcast sphere in general. I'm Bill Rankin.

683
00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:09,080
Speaker 1: I'm the legal affairs reporter for the Atlanta Journal Constitution.

684
00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:13,000
Speaker 1: I covered the case for the newspaper, and I also

685
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:17,320
Speaker 1: hosted the Breakdown podcast, which focused on the Ross Harris

686
00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:20,960
Speaker 1: case in season two. I've covered courts now for more

687
00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:23,800
Speaker 1: than twenty five years, and I've loved it. I've covered

688
00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:27,320
Speaker 1: a lot of high profile cases. I covered the Michael

689
00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:30,960
Speaker 1: Vick case, the quarterback for the Falcons who was accused

690
00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:35,920
Speaker 1: of animal cruelty. There was a very high profile case

691
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:39,080
Speaker 1: involving the Gold Club in Atlanta with the wrecked hearing

692
00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:45,279
Speaker 1: case involving mobs alleged connection with the mob and prostitutes

693
00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:48,439
Speaker 1: who were having sex with professional athletes. But I think

694
00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:51,120
Speaker 1: the most high profile case I'd covered before this was

695
00:40:51,239 --> 00:40:55,239
Speaker 1: the Ray Lewis murder trial. He and two others were

696
00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:59,320
Speaker 1: accused of killing two people shortly after Super Bowl thirty

697
00:40:59,320 --> 00:41:02,400
Speaker 1: four in Atlanta, uh and the trial here in Atlanta

698
00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:07,600
Speaker 1: was followed nationwide on Court TV. And but I think

699
00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:11,920
Speaker 1: Ross Harris was in another realm because social media now

700
00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:17,040
Speaker 1: is so pervasive, and the attention on this case was

701
00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:20,920
Speaker 1: unlike any any other I've ever covered. I covered the

702
00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:24,960
Speaker 1: case with a very able colleague, Christian Boon, and we

703
00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:27,759
Speaker 1: took turns during the day that this was about a

704
00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:31,400
Speaker 1: five week trial, if I recall, and we wrote stories

705
00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:35,240
Speaker 1: for the our website throughout the day depending on whether

706
00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:37,839
Speaker 1: big news came from testimony, And there were a lot

707
00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:42,680
Speaker 1: of moments that demanded us to write updates for our

708
00:41:42,719 --> 00:41:46,960
Speaker 1: website at the same time I had to. I felt

709
00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:49,120
Speaker 1: like I was part of the radio and TV crew

710
00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:51,440
Speaker 1: because I was I had a recorder hooked up to

711
00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:54,520
Speaker 1: the sound that came out of the courtroom, and I

712
00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:58,560
Speaker 1: was having to monitor that too, make sure I could

713
00:41:58,680 --> 00:42:01,960
Speaker 1: mark the most importan in moments when I heard interesting

714
00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:04,799
Speaker 1: testimony and couldn'tess gracious. There was a lot of it.

715
00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:07,719
Speaker 1: When I heard somebody say something that I thought would

716
00:42:07,719 --> 00:42:10,560
Speaker 1: be great on a podcast, I would market so I

717
00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:13,359
Speaker 1: could go back at night after the trial was over,

718
00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:15,480
Speaker 1: and then I would go back through all that recorded

719
00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:18,680
Speaker 1: testimony and try to winnow down the best sound bite

720
00:42:18,719 --> 00:42:21,640
Speaker 1: that I knew I would use on the weekly podcast.

721
00:42:21,719 --> 00:42:24,880
Speaker 1: It was like nothing I've ever done before, and it

722
00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:27,160
Speaker 1: it took a lot of time. It was very long days,

723
00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:29,359
Speaker 1: but it was interesting. It was so new to me,

724
00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:32,400
Speaker 1: and it was fun, actually it was. It was a

725
00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:36,600
Speaker 1: fascinating trial. During the jury selections, some jurors did say

726
00:42:36,640 --> 00:42:39,840
Speaker 1: they had listened to breakdown, but I think it was

727
00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:44,680
Speaker 1: just the the total inundation of news coverage about the

728
00:42:44,719 --> 00:42:49,600
Speaker 1: case on all fronts TV, radio, newspapers, and social media.

729
00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:53,200
Speaker 1: At first, when Cooper was found dead in the car,

730
00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:56,719
Speaker 1: the case was already a national story, but after the

731
00:42:56,760 --> 00:43:01,240
Speaker 1: probable cause hearing and news of his sexty and infidelities,

732
00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:04,239
Speaker 1: came out, the case just went viral. You could see

733
00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:08,640
Speaker 1: sitting through jury selection and Cobb, especially before the case

734
00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:13,000
Speaker 1: was moved, how so many jurors not only had fixed

735
00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:16,600
Speaker 1: opinions about Harris's guild, they it was just so clear

736
00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:19,719
Speaker 1: that many of them just despised him. I don't know

737
00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:22,720
Speaker 1: if they could have gotten a fair and impartial jury

738
00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:26,239
Speaker 1: in Cobb. I was pretty surprised when they moved it.

739
00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:30,640
Speaker 1: But it was moved because of all the coverage, all

740
00:43:30,640 --> 00:43:35,120
Speaker 1: the news coverage, not just the podcast. That's for sure. Today,

741
00:43:35,560 --> 00:43:37,440
Speaker 1: you know, the defense may have had a better result.

742
00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:40,440
Speaker 1: That's easy to say, obviously, because they moved to Brunswick,

743
00:43:40,440 --> 00:43:43,759
Speaker 1: which is a very conservative area to be It's not

744
00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:47,400
Speaker 1: it's not a defense lawyer's preference to be trying a

745
00:43:47,480 --> 00:43:51,960
Speaker 1: case as a prosecutor's dream that area. So, you know, hindsight,

746
00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:55,160
Speaker 1: I think they did the right thing and trying to

747
00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:58,320
Speaker 1: move it because I remember one juror she said she

748
00:43:58,320 --> 00:43:59,920
Speaker 1: would give them that she wanted him to have the

749
00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:02,719
Speaker 1: eth penalty when she hadn't heard of single word of

750
00:44:02,760 --> 00:44:06,640
Speaker 1: testimony that kind of described how some people thought about him.

751
00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:10,080
Speaker 1: She was excused, of course, but the antipathy of him

752
00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:15,240
Speaker 1: in Cobb County was ferocious. Phil. I think she referenced

753
00:44:15,239 --> 00:44:18,520
Speaker 1: Breakdown in context with a lot of other news media

754
00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:21,960
Speaker 1: when she moved the trial and she referenced Breakdown, she

755
00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:26,520
Speaker 1: was using that as an example of how how closely

756
00:44:26,560 --> 00:44:29,600
Speaker 1: the case was being followed by the news media, and

757
00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:33,040
Speaker 1: she was right about that. I think it's very safe

758
00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:36,960
Speaker 1: to say that the true crime podcasts are becoming as

759
00:44:37,000 --> 00:44:39,480
Speaker 1: they become more and more popular, and they are very

760
00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:42,279
Speaker 1: popular because you know, some of these podcasts are having

761
00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:46,879
Speaker 1: millions and millions of downloads. I think they're becoming very influential.

762
00:44:46,920 --> 00:44:49,840
Speaker 1: And I think it's very safe to say that Ednn

763
00:44:49,840 --> 00:44:52,640
Speaker 1: Sayed's attempts for a new trial would never have received

764
00:44:52,680 --> 00:44:56,120
Speaker 1: such careful scrutiny by the courts in Maryland had it

765
00:44:56,160 --> 00:44:58,440
Speaker 1: not been for the attention on the case by serial

766
00:44:58,560 --> 00:45:03,319
Speaker 1: and undisclosed those podcast and the prosecution in the Tera

767
00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:08,520
Speaker 1: Grinstead case. And you know, tiny Ascilla initially ordered a

768
00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:12,239
Speaker 1: sweeping gag order of that I had never seen in

769
00:45:12,320 --> 00:45:15,520
Speaker 1: my life, not only telling people that not to talk

770
00:45:15,560 --> 00:45:19,160
Speaker 1: about the case, but having no access to documents, which

771
00:45:19,200 --> 00:45:21,920
Speaker 1: he since eased quite a bit. But it had to

772
00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:25,600
Speaker 1: be because of the popularity of the great popularity the

773
00:45:25,680 --> 00:45:30,120
Speaker 1: up and vanished podcast because you know, not many people

774
00:45:30,200 --> 00:45:33,040
Speaker 1: were really covering the case, and that's it paid such

775
00:45:33,120 --> 00:45:36,240
Speaker 1: close attention to it, and that's I think, especially people

776
00:45:36,239 --> 00:45:39,800
Speaker 1: in that small area we're listening so and the judge

777
00:45:39,840 --> 00:45:43,279
Speaker 1: knew that. And I guess I would hope also that

778
00:45:43,440 --> 00:45:46,480
Speaker 1: Breakdown's first season played a role in how Justin Chapman's

779
00:45:46,560 --> 00:45:49,439
Speaker 1: murder case was received by the courts and prosecution long

780
00:45:49,480 --> 00:45:52,600
Speaker 1: after he'd been sent to prison. You know, I did

781
00:45:52,640 --> 00:45:56,400
Speaker 1: that podcast on Justin Harris many years after he had

782
00:45:56,440 --> 00:46:00,319
Speaker 1: been convicted. The drive to court in Brunswick during rush

783
00:46:00,360 --> 00:46:03,160
Speaker 1: hour was a breeze. So but but I guess the

784
00:46:03,200 --> 00:46:05,920
Speaker 1: bad thing was spending so much time away from my

785
00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:09,320
Speaker 1: family and I think everybody involved in the case I

786
00:46:09,440 --> 00:46:12,600
Speaker 1: felt that. But I think as for making the podcast,

787
00:46:12,680 --> 00:46:16,040
Speaker 1: it presented a lot of challenges for me. I mean,

788
00:46:16,080 --> 00:46:19,319
Speaker 1: I had to most Breakdown podcast or made in a

789
00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:22,759
Speaker 1: studio we have here in Atlanta, but I didn't have

790
00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:26,080
Speaker 1: that down in Brunswick. So I I made a makeshift

791
00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:30,319
Speaker 1: studio in my condo bedroom closet, draped quilts over my

792
00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:33,360
Speaker 1: head and I hung close up and all around me.

793
00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:37,040
Speaker 1: So I recorded the podcast in a little cocoon setting

794
00:46:37,080 --> 00:46:39,879
Speaker 1: so I could try to have the best sound quality

795
00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:43,080
Speaker 1: as I could. You know, my dad worked for the

796
00:46:43,080 --> 00:46:46,120
Speaker 1: Atlantic Constitution. He died about ten years ago. He worked

797
00:46:46,120 --> 00:46:48,880
Speaker 1: for the Atlantic Constitution for twenty five years. I can'tnot

798
00:46:48,920 --> 00:46:51,839
Speaker 1: imagine what he would think, you know, if he'd known

799
00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:55,600
Speaker 1: I'd done that as a newspaper reporter. We also had

800
00:46:55,640 --> 00:46:59,799
Speaker 1: some very interesting developments while we were in Brunswick. We

801
00:46:59,840 --> 00:47:04,480
Speaker 1: had Hurricane Matthew rumble through and the governor ordered the

802
00:47:04,520 --> 00:47:08,360
Speaker 1: evacuation of the Georgia coast. I remember I left at

803
00:47:08,400 --> 00:47:11,280
Speaker 1: five o'clock in the morning on the day he declared

804
00:47:11,320 --> 00:47:13,920
Speaker 1: a state of emergency, and I guess by the end

805
00:47:13,920 --> 00:47:17,160
Speaker 1: of the day, lines of traffic going down I sixteen

806
00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:20,320
Speaker 1: West were bumper to bumper. I left early enough to

807
00:47:20,360 --> 00:47:24,440
Speaker 1: miss it, but that was crazy, you know. We also

808
00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:28,279
Speaker 1: had half a day because of the presidential election, and

809
00:47:29,160 --> 00:47:32,960
Speaker 1: I tell everybody during the trial, I saw Donald Trump

810
00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:35,720
Speaker 1: get elected in the Chicago Cubs win the World Series,

811
00:47:36,560 --> 00:47:39,399
Speaker 1: so it was all very interesting. Do you have any

812
00:47:39,440 --> 00:47:42,359
Speaker 1: predictions about how long the appeal might take in this

813
00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:45,279
Speaker 1: case or what it might look like. The first thing

814
00:47:45,320 --> 00:47:48,000
Speaker 1: that happened will be the motion for new trial hearing

815
00:47:48,239 --> 00:47:51,040
Speaker 1: that Justin Russ Harris is Lawri's have already filed, but

816
00:47:51,080 --> 00:47:54,680
Speaker 1: he has a a new quarter, pointed attorney, Mitch Durham,

817
00:47:55,600 --> 00:47:59,000
Speaker 1: but he can't proceed until the trial transcript is finished.

818
00:47:59,000 --> 00:48:02,400
Speaker 1: And from what I understand, and we're now nine months

819
00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:05,160
Speaker 1: later and the trial transcript is yet to be prepared,

820
00:48:05,880 --> 00:48:09,759
Speaker 1: it's not unusual for lengthy murder trials to for the

821
00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:13,200
Speaker 1: trial transcript to take a year or even longer. So

822
00:48:13,280 --> 00:48:16,160
Speaker 1: I would think once the transcript is prepared and the

823
00:48:16,200 --> 00:48:20,400
Speaker 1: motion for new trial is litigated, that could take a year,

824
00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:23,719
Speaker 1: I would think, and then you would appeal to the

825
00:48:23,719 --> 00:48:26,960
Speaker 1: Georgia Supreme Court. After that, again you have to prepare

826
00:48:26,960 --> 00:48:29,400
Speaker 1: the trial transcript on the hearings for the motion for

827
00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:31,279
Speaker 1: new trial. I don't know how long that will take,

828
00:48:31,360 --> 00:48:35,160
Speaker 1: but the Georgia Supreme Court will hear the arguments and

829
00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:37,680
Speaker 1: it takes two terms. It could take two terms of

830
00:48:37,760 --> 00:48:40,160
Speaker 1: its court to decide the case. That could be another

831
00:48:40,719 --> 00:48:43,640
Speaker 1: half year to nine months, So I think we're talking

832
00:48:44,239 --> 00:48:48,359
Speaker 1: three years. I don't think that's unreasonable. Justice doesn't move

833
00:48:48,400 --> 00:48:53,160
Speaker 1: that quickly sometimes. Well, I always tell people that you

834
00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:56,319
Speaker 1: certainly don't want to put all your eggs in the

835
00:48:56,320 --> 00:48:59,480
Speaker 1: appellate basket. Your best hope to win a case is

836
00:48:59,520 --> 00:49:02,520
Speaker 1: that the trial court level, because if you lose, then

837
00:49:02,880 --> 00:49:07,120
Speaker 1: the appeal could last a really really long time. And

838
00:49:07,160 --> 00:49:09,040
Speaker 1: if it's not a murder case and you have a

839
00:49:09,120 --> 00:49:13,080
Speaker 1: much shorter sentence, oftentimes you've served your sentence before the

840
00:49:13,120 --> 00:49:16,799
Speaker 1: appeal even begins. UH motion for a new trial is

841
00:49:16,840 --> 00:49:19,040
Speaker 1: heard by the judge who oversaw the trial. That would

842
00:49:19,040 --> 00:49:23,480
Speaker 1: be Judge Mary Stanley Clark, and it happens sometimes, but

843
00:49:23,600 --> 00:49:27,080
Speaker 1: I think it's extremely rare for a judge who oversaw

844
00:49:27,120 --> 00:49:31,120
Speaker 1: the trial him or herself to order a new trial.

845
00:49:31,480 --> 00:49:35,719
Speaker 1: I think they would affirm the conviction and he will

846
00:49:35,760 --> 00:49:38,840
Speaker 1: have an automatic appeal to the Georgia Supreme Court, and

847
00:49:38,880 --> 00:49:41,640
Speaker 1: I'm sure that's where the case will ultimately to be decided.

848
00:49:42,160 --> 00:49:44,440
Speaker 1: Is there anything that you think that you might want

849
00:49:44,440 --> 00:49:47,960
Speaker 1: to add that you think is important about the trial

850
00:49:48,280 --> 00:49:51,880
Speaker 1: from the inside looking out? I think Veronica covered it

851
00:49:51,920 --> 00:49:55,479
Speaker 1: pretty well. Who's the guy? Um, the TV guy who

852
00:49:55,600 --> 00:49:58,560
Speaker 1: you had that was Vinnie Politan Benny. I thought he

853
00:49:58,800 --> 00:50:01,040
Speaker 1: said it very well. I felt the same way. I

854
00:50:01,080 --> 00:50:05,799
Speaker 1: thought Harris needed to testify, even though I knew Chuck

855
00:50:05,840 --> 00:50:09,160
Speaker 1: Boring would have skinned him alive, but I think the

856
00:50:09,239 --> 00:50:12,839
Speaker 1: jury needed to hear what he had to say. From

857
00:50:12,840 --> 00:50:17,360
Speaker 1: what I would think Maddox and Carlos and Brian felt

858
00:50:17,400 --> 00:50:22,040
Speaker 1: like his videotaped interview, you know, the secretly recorded interview

859
00:50:22,360 --> 00:50:26,680
Speaker 1: at the police station, sufficed to that. But I personally,

860
00:50:27,120 --> 00:50:29,399
Speaker 1: I would have liked to have heard what he had

861
00:50:29,440 --> 00:50:31,799
Speaker 1: to say because, like I said at the podcast, there's

862
00:50:31,840 --> 00:50:35,239
Speaker 1: really only one person who knows whether he did it

863
00:50:35,320 --> 00:50:40,200
Speaker 1: or not, despite how strongly. Another thing about this case

864
00:50:40,320 --> 00:50:43,719
Speaker 1: is just how strongly and fervently the pros, both the

865
00:50:43,719 --> 00:50:47,440
Speaker 1: prosecution and the defense, believe they're right. You see that

866
00:50:47,520 --> 00:50:50,680
Speaker 1: in trials, you know, where the defense will say I

867
00:50:50,719 --> 00:50:53,520
Speaker 1: know my client sent us, and the prosecution will say, no,

868
00:50:53,680 --> 00:50:56,360
Speaker 1: he's guilty. But a lot of that is bluster. I

869
00:50:56,400 --> 00:50:59,400
Speaker 1: don't believe this was bluster at all. I think that

870
00:50:59,480 --> 00:51:03,840
Speaker 1: Maddox Ogre thought Justin Ross Harris was absolutely innocent. He

871
00:51:03,960 --> 00:51:06,280
Speaker 1: never meant to kill his son. I think Chuck Boring

872
00:51:06,880 --> 00:51:09,759
Speaker 1: believed in his heart of hearts that he did so,

873
00:51:10,480 --> 00:51:12,720
Speaker 1: and like I said, there's only one person who really

874
00:51:12,760 --> 00:51:15,680
Speaker 1: knows for sure, and that's Justin Ross Harris and the

875
00:51:15,760 --> 00:51:17,879
Speaker 1: jury didn't get to hear from him. And I can

876
00:51:17,960 --> 00:51:20,920
Speaker 1: understand why they didn't put him on the stand, but

877
00:51:21,160 --> 00:51:25,320
Speaker 1: I guess, like asking to move the jury to Brunswick

878
00:51:25,360 --> 00:51:29,399
Speaker 1: instead of keeping it in Cobb, hindsight, maybe it would

879
00:51:29,400 --> 00:51:32,280
Speaker 1: have been good for the jury to hear him explain

880
00:51:32,560 --> 00:51:35,239
Speaker 1: what happened that day. Well. You know, that's one of

881
00:51:35,320 --> 00:51:38,080
Speaker 1: the things that stood out to me from the very

882
00:51:38,120 --> 00:51:42,920
Speaker 1: beginning of this case is how each side was seemingly

883
00:51:43,360 --> 00:51:48,160
Speaker 1: two convinced that their side was the right side. I

884
00:51:48,200 --> 00:51:52,040
Speaker 1: believe you're right. I believe the defense in their hearts,

885
00:51:52,520 --> 00:51:56,520
Speaker 1: believes he's innocent, and I believe that the prosecutors in

886
00:51:56,560 --> 00:52:01,920
Speaker 1: their hearts believes that he's guilty of malice murder. And ultimately,

887
00:52:02,000 --> 00:52:03,319
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, it had to be

888
00:52:03,360 --> 00:52:06,359
Speaker 1: the jury to make up their mind. I would say,

889
00:52:06,360 --> 00:52:08,040
Speaker 1: I bet the jury would have loved to have heard

890
00:52:08,080 --> 00:52:10,840
Speaker 1: from him on the stand if any of them had

891
00:52:11,000 --> 00:52:16,040
Speaker 1: any doubts at all. You know, seeing his demeanor, heard

892
00:52:16,080 --> 00:52:20,320
Speaker 1: his explanation, see his sorrow in his grief, did it

893
00:52:20,440 --> 00:52:25,440
Speaker 1: seem as though the defense strategy was really too fiercely

894
00:52:25,520 --> 00:52:28,640
Speaker 1: defend the murder charges or the charges related to his

895
00:52:28,719 --> 00:52:34,359
Speaker 1: death and not really focus on the overwhelming evidence that

896
00:52:34,560 --> 00:52:39,120
Speaker 1: was presented regarding the sexting allegations. My impression was that

897
00:52:39,280 --> 00:52:44,279
Speaker 1: the defense basically completely admitted to all the sexting allegations,

898
00:52:44,320 --> 00:52:49,000
Speaker 1: and I think Maddox said in his opening statement, like

899
00:52:49,280 --> 00:52:52,239
Speaker 1: I believe he played in the last episode, he was

900
00:52:52,280 --> 00:52:57,200
Speaker 1: a moral and he admitted to everything. I think absolutely

901
00:52:57,280 --> 00:53:01,320
Speaker 1: the defense basically laid down on the sexting and child

902
00:53:01,320 --> 00:53:05,360
Speaker 1: porn charges. There was really no defense they had to

903
00:53:05,440 --> 00:53:08,680
Speaker 1: combat those charges. They had it all in texts and

904
00:53:08,719 --> 00:53:12,440
Speaker 1: on computers. There was no defense to it. Really. I

905
00:53:12,480 --> 00:53:15,040
Speaker 1: think their main focus was on the malice murder charge.

906
00:53:15,080 --> 00:53:19,920
Speaker 1: They absolutely didn't believe that he meant to kill his son. Secondly,

907
00:53:20,320 --> 00:53:24,480
Speaker 1: the criminal negligence charged, their argument was because he did

908
00:53:24,480 --> 00:53:27,479
Speaker 1: not know Cooper was in the car when he left

909
00:53:27,520 --> 00:53:30,480
Speaker 1: the car, he couldn't have been negligent. He would only

910
00:53:30,520 --> 00:53:32,600
Speaker 1: be negligent if he knew Cooper was in the car

911
00:53:32,640 --> 00:53:36,560
Speaker 1: when he left. Of course, the prosecution argued that he

912
00:53:36,680 --> 00:53:39,760
Speaker 1: absolutely knew he was in the car, but the defense

913
00:53:39,840 --> 00:53:43,319
Speaker 1: argued that this was just a tragic mistake, so he

914
00:53:43,320 --> 00:53:46,840
Speaker 1: could not be guilty of murder. That was their main focus.

915
00:53:46,880 --> 00:53:51,440
Speaker 1: Throughout the whole trial, described for us what the atmosphere

916
00:53:51,560 --> 00:53:54,840
Speaker 1: was like when we knew there was a verdict that

917
00:53:54,960 --> 00:53:57,640
Speaker 1: was about to be read, and what it was like

918
00:53:57,880 --> 00:54:01,960
Speaker 1: inside that courtroom. I was not surprised that the jury

919
00:54:02,000 --> 00:54:05,920
Speaker 1: found him guilty of malice, murder and criminal negligence, just

920
00:54:06,040 --> 00:54:10,279
Speaker 1: because you know, when cases go to trial prosecution, the

921
00:54:10,360 --> 00:54:14,720
Speaker 1: prosecutor usually wins. And I thought this was a pretty

922
00:54:14,760 --> 00:54:20,360
Speaker 1: conservative jury, and I thought that the sensationalism about the

923
00:54:20,440 --> 00:54:25,480
Speaker 1: sexting was tough to overcome from her defense perspective. But

924
00:54:26,360 --> 00:54:29,720
Speaker 1: when Judge Staley handed her clerk the piece of paper

925
00:54:29,800 --> 00:54:32,360
Speaker 1: and he stood up to read it, you know, you

926
00:54:32,400 --> 00:54:35,600
Speaker 1: could have heard a pen drop, and the anxiety and

927
00:54:35,640 --> 00:54:39,759
Speaker 1: the tension in that courtroom was palpable. There's nothing like

928
00:54:39,800 --> 00:54:43,640
Speaker 1: a verdict being read in court, especially after a strongly

929
00:54:44,160 --> 00:54:48,719
Speaker 1: litigated trial that's received national attention. So it's one of

930
00:54:48,719 --> 00:54:53,439
Speaker 1: those moments I'll never forget. Without question. Well, we heard

931
00:54:53,480 --> 00:54:57,160
Speaker 1: from the prosecution, we heard from the defense, we've heard

932
00:54:57,160 --> 00:54:59,920
Speaker 1: from journalists who covered this once in a lifetime trial,

933
00:55:00,600 --> 00:55:03,120
Speaker 1: and we've even heard from one of the two living

934
00:55:03,160 --> 00:55:08,120
Speaker 1: people most affected by this tragedy, Cooper's mom, Leanna Taylor.

935
00:55:08,760 --> 00:55:11,839
Speaker 1: Now it's time for me to share with you my

936
00:55:11,960 --> 00:55:16,040
Speaker 1: final thoughts. The truth is, I do have some thoughts,

937
00:55:16,239 --> 00:55:19,680
Speaker 1: but I'm not sure that their final thoughts. This case

938
00:55:20,000 --> 00:55:24,080
Speaker 1: and this trial literally consumed whatever part of my life

939
00:55:24,480 --> 00:55:28,279
Speaker 1: wasn't spent with my family or my law practice. I too,

940
00:55:28,440 --> 00:55:31,839
Speaker 1: was part of the media that was glued to every

941
00:55:31,880 --> 00:55:35,600
Speaker 1: single part of this case, from arrest to verdict. We

942
00:55:35,600 --> 00:55:39,799
Speaker 1: were there for it all, gavel to gavel, working sources,

943
00:55:40,480 --> 00:55:43,239
Speaker 1: planning how we were going to cover various aspects of

944
00:55:43,280 --> 00:55:46,080
Speaker 1: the proceedings. Where would be the best place to set

945
00:55:46,120 --> 00:55:49,560
Speaker 1: up a live shot for television. I guess I'll let

946
00:55:49,560 --> 00:55:52,000
Speaker 1: you in on something of a little secret. Something many

947
00:55:52,000 --> 00:55:54,640
Speaker 1: people don't know is that I was the first person

948
00:55:54,760 --> 00:55:57,560
Speaker 1: subpoenaed as a witness for the defense in the case

949
00:55:57,600 --> 00:56:00,279
Speaker 1: of the State of Georgia versus Justin Ross hare Us.

950
00:56:00,680 --> 00:56:03,759
Speaker 1: That's right, you see, the defense filed a pre trial

951
00:56:03,880 --> 00:56:07,880
Speaker 1: motion seeking for the courtroom to be closed during subsequent

952
00:56:07,960 --> 00:56:11,120
Speaker 1: pre trial hearings in order to protect their client from

953
00:56:11,120 --> 00:56:16,200
Speaker 1: pre trial publicity while evidentiary matters were discussed. The defense

954
00:56:16,239 --> 00:56:19,680
Speaker 1: felt like they needed a witness, a talking head like me,

955
00:56:20,120 --> 00:56:24,239
Speaker 1: to testify that there would be extensive media coverage of

956
00:56:24,480 --> 00:56:27,800
Speaker 1: all pre trial matters, and that people like me would

957
00:56:27,840 --> 00:56:32,480
Speaker 1: dissect every aspect of those proceedings and broadcast them to

958
00:56:32,600 --> 00:56:37,440
Speaker 1: the pool of potential jurors. Of course, media lawyers, as

959
00:56:37,480 --> 00:56:41,520
Speaker 1: they always do in situations like this, intervened, and ultimately

960
00:56:41,800 --> 00:56:44,600
Speaker 1: I was released from my subpoena, and that was a

961
00:56:44,600 --> 00:56:48,080
Speaker 1: good thing. I didn't mind being on the news, but

962
00:56:48,160 --> 00:56:51,560
Speaker 1: I certainly did not want to be the news. Now.

963
00:56:51,800 --> 00:56:54,440
Speaker 1: You won't find a stronger advocate for open courts than

964
00:56:54,480 --> 00:56:57,120
Speaker 1: I am. But I get why the defense did this.

965
00:56:57,560 --> 00:57:01,279
Speaker 1: They were trying to protect their client, Maddox Killgore and

966
00:57:01,280 --> 00:57:04,799
Speaker 1: his team. Well, they were doing their sworn duty, their

967
00:57:04,880 --> 00:57:09,760
Speaker 1: duty to be zealous advocates for their client. But Maddox

968
00:57:09,800 --> 00:57:12,359
Speaker 1: really didn't need me to tell the judge about pre

969
00:57:12,440 --> 00:57:15,360
Speaker 1: trial publicity. She could see that with her own eyes.

970
00:57:15,520 --> 00:57:18,760
Speaker 1: After all, the courtroom was packed with the reporters and

971
00:57:18,880 --> 00:57:22,240
Speaker 1: cameras and microphones everywhere, so she could see this with

972
00:57:22,320 --> 00:57:24,960
Speaker 1: her own eyes, and by the way, she did not

973
00:57:25,120 --> 00:57:29,440
Speaker 1: close the courtroom. But in all of this, the truth

974
00:57:29,600 --> 00:57:33,080
Speaker 1: is that I really still cannot get my head around

975
00:57:33,320 --> 00:57:37,360
Speaker 1: the idea that a father would intentionally murder his son

976
00:57:37,600 --> 00:57:41,400
Speaker 1: in such a horrible way. To this very day, when

977
00:57:41,440 --> 00:57:43,920
Speaker 1: I think about this case, I don't think so much

978
00:57:43,960 --> 00:57:47,000
Speaker 1: about the evidence. I don't think so much about the

979
00:57:47,080 --> 00:57:50,680
Speaker 1: probable cause hearing that caused so much controversy, and I

980
00:57:50,680 --> 00:57:54,320
Speaker 1: don't think about the trial or even the verdict. It

981
00:57:54,520 --> 00:57:58,040
Speaker 1: is true that the initial probable cause hearing against Mr

982
00:57:58,120 --> 00:58:02,120
Speaker 1: Harris made the state's case seemed quite strong, and it's

983
00:58:02,160 --> 00:58:05,680
Speaker 1: also true that the evidence at trial was very different

984
00:58:06,080 --> 00:58:08,560
Speaker 1: and the state's case didn't seem quite as strong by

985
00:58:08,560 --> 00:58:11,880
Speaker 1: that point. In fact, I've heard from people who watched

986
00:58:11,880 --> 00:58:15,680
Speaker 1: the entire trial who had not seen the probable cause hearing,

987
00:58:16,120 --> 00:58:19,600
Speaker 1: and these people mostly were stunned at the verdict at

988
00:58:19,680 --> 00:58:22,680
Speaker 1: least as to the murder convictions. To most of us

989
00:58:22,840 --> 00:58:25,959
Speaker 1: that followed this case closely, there was never any real

990
00:58:26,000 --> 00:58:29,360
Speaker 1: doubt that Ross Harris was headed to prison. The charges

991
00:58:29,480 --> 00:58:33,200
Speaker 1: against Mr Harris that were not related to murder, those

992
00:58:33,280 --> 00:58:38,200
Speaker 1: charges were factually basically indefensible. On top of that, justin

993
00:58:38,320 --> 00:58:41,240
Speaker 1: Ross Harris had a second indictment returned against him for

994
00:58:41,400 --> 00:58:46,880
Speaker 1: indecent images allegedly located later on his electronic devices. If

995
00:58:46,920 --> 00:58:50,520
Speaker 1: convicted of those charges in that second indictment, he was

996
00:58:50,520 --> 00:58:53,600
Speaker 1: facing a lot of prison time. But in the end,

997
00:58:53,640 --> 00:58:56,840
Speaker 1: when I think of this case, what I think of, well,

998
00:58:56,920 --> 00:59:01,000
Speaker 1: who I think of mostly is Cooper. The death of

999
00:59:01,000 --> 00:59:03,880
Speaker 1: a child is always terrible, but the way Cooper died

1000
00:59:04,000 --> 00:59:07,040
Speaker 1: is something I can't really fathom, not as a person

1001
00:59:07,480 --> 00:59:11,360
Speaker 1: and certainly not as a father myself. My hope is

1002
00:59:11,400 --> 00:59:15,320
Speaker 1: that Cooper's death was not in vain. At a minimum,

1003
00:59:15,360 --> 00:59:18,520
Speaker 1: I hope that his death raised awareness, awareness of the

1004
00:59:18,640 --> 00:59:21,920
Speaker 1: dangers of leaving kids in hot cars, and I hope

1005
00:59:21,960 --> 00:59:24,120
Speaker 1: that his death reminds the rest of us of the

1006
00:59:24,200 --> 00:59:28,600
Speaker 1: dangers of risky behavior and unhealthy addictions. I hope that

1007
00:59:28,680 --> 00:59:32,560
Speaker 1: Leanna and others who knew and loved Cooper can find

1008
00:59:32,680 --> 00:59:38,760
Speaker 1: some peace and hopefully eventually some closure. Finally, I hope

1009
00:59:38,800 --> 00:59:42,120
Speaker 1: that Cooper rests in peace. If you have kids, give

1010
00:59:42,160 --> 00:59:45,320
Speaker 1: them an extra hug today in memory of Cooper Harris.

1011
01:00:02,400 --> 01:00:15,760
Speaker 1: Yes Because You Sworn is produced by Tenderfoot TV in Atlanta.

1012
01:00:16,320 --> 01:00:21,280
Speaker 1: Story production and sound design by Payne Lindsay Executive producers

1013
01:00:21,400 --> 01:00:24,880
Speaker 1: Donald Albright and Payne Lindsay, and if you have it yet,

1014
01:00:24,920 --> 01:00:27,760
Speaker 1: please check out our sister podcast, Up and Vantaged that

1015
01:00:27,800 --> 01:00:31,360
Speaker 1: follows the investigation into the disappearance of Georgia High school

1016
01:00:31,400 --> 01:00:35,280
Speaker 1: teacher and beauty queen Tera Brinstead Up and Vantaged is

1017
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Speaker 1: available now on Apple Podcasts. The Sworn is mixed and

1018
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1019
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1020
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1021
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1022
01:00:53,880 --> 01:00:57,000
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1023
01:00:57,360 --> 01:01:01,440
Speaker 1: at sworn podcast dot com. Follow us on social media

1024
01:01:01,800 --> 01:01:05,480
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1025
01:01:05,520 --> 01:01:09,040
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