1 00:00:03,680 --> 00:00:06,720 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the 2 00:00:06,800 --> 00:00:09,559 Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime. 3 00:00:09,800 --> 00:00:12,800 Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's 4 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:16,439 Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them. 5 00:00:16,480 --> 00:00:19,799 Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most 6 00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 1: compelling true crimes. 7 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:24,279 Speaker 2: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring 8 00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:26,040 Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries. 9 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:31,680 Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime 10 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:34,400 Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens. 11 00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:37,800 Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold. 12 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:39,839 Speaker 1: This is buried Bones. 13 00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:02,680 Speaker 2: Hi, Kate, how are you? 14 00:01:03,120 --> 00:01:05,960 Speaker 1: I'm doing well. I have wanted to ask you something 15 00:01:05,959 --> 00:01:09,160 Speaker 1: for a long time. You cheat on me with another show. 16 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:12,280 Speaker 2: That's one way to put it. 17 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:14,440 Speaker 1: He cheats on all of us. Although you guys listen, 18 00:01:14,480 --> 00:01:17,000 Speaker 1: I'm sure too. It's a small town Dick's great show. 19 00:01:17,319 --> 00:01:21,240 Speaker 1: One of your co hosts is very, very famous, you know, 20 00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:25,720 Speaker 1: Yardley Smith, who is Lisa Simpson and it does many 21 00:01:25,720 --> 00:01:28,400 Speaker 1: other things I know, but is best known for Lisa 22 00:01:28,440 --> 00:01:31,720 Speaker 1: Simpson on The Simpsons, and so I have not met 23 00:01:31,760 --> 00:01:34,480 Speaker 1: her in person yet, but I've sort of awestruck that 24 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:37,080 Speaker 1: you can even put together a sentence when you're doing 25 00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:40,560 Speaker 1: a crime show with Lisa Simpson. I mean, she is 26 00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:44,800 Speaker 1: just Yardly to you because you say you're not like 27 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:47,160 Speaker 1: some massive Simpsons fan like I am. 28 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:50,280 Speaker 2: No, you know, I watched a few episodes when it 29 00:01:50,320 --> 00:01:53,240 Speaker 2: first came out, and that may have even been I 30 00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:56,600 Speaker 2: think it was the Tracy Allman Show, you know. 31 00:01:56,720 --> 00:01:59,520 Speaker 1: Back when they looked funny. I think, right, yeah, you know. 32 00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:02,560 Speaker 2: So that is thirty plus years ago, and I never 33 00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:07,720 Speaker 2: really followed it since. And then I met Yardley out 34 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:12,440 Speaker 2: in d C for a true crime conference and Yardly 35 00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:16,000 Speaker 2: and then her now husband Dan and his twin brother 36 00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:19,520 Speaker 2: Dave were to interview me on stage, and then that's 37 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:21,800 Speaker 2: when I got to know him, and obviously we just clicked, 38 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:24,800 Speaker 2: you know, Dan, Dave and I being law enforcement, and Yardly, 39 00:02:25,040 --> 00:02:27,880 Speaker 2: even with her celebrity status, is just so down to 40 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:32,480 Speaker 2: earth and you know. And so that has been a 41 00:02:33,440 --> 00:02:36,320 Speaker 2: great part of my life to get to know them 42 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:40,239 Speaker 2: and eventually become part of the podcast Smalltown Dicks. 43 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:43,360 Speaker 1: And I think you all have like a very easy 44 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:47,120 Speaker 1: way of having a conversation but still being professional. Everybody's 45 00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:49,880 Speaker 1: professional there and being very serious. But I feel like 46 00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:52,079 Speaker 1: it seems like you're all very comfortable with each other, 47 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:53,720 Speaker 1: which is which is you know, how you and I 48 00:02:53,760 --> 00:02:54,160 Speaker 1: are too. 49 00:02:54,200 --> 00:02:56,400 Speaker 2: I think, oh, yeah, no, you know, and I think 50 00:02:56,440 --> 00:03:00,920 Speaker 2: that that really is what helps drive is success podcast 51 00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:03,959 Speaker 2: is you know, the co host being able to relate 52 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:07,320 Speaker 2: to each other just in a very natural, friendly way. 53 00:03:08,040 --> 00:03:11,200 Speaker 2: I am not a listener of podcasts, but I could 54 00:03:11,200 --> 00:03:14,200 Speaker 2: only imagine that if there's awkwardness between the co hosts, 55 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:17,360 Speaker 2: that that probably doesn't come off very well. And so, 56 00:03:17,480 --> 00:03:20,000 Speaker 2: of course, you know, our listeners hear you and I 57 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:22,760 Speaker 2: and the great relationship we have. But also a small 58 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:25,520 Speaker 2: town dicks, it's just a natural thing. You know. We 59 00:03:26,600 --> 00:03:30,119 Speaker 2: of course record the episodes, but even if we get 60 00:03:30,160 --> 00:03:33,480 Speaker 2: together and it's we're not recording, we're just, let's say, 61 00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:34,680 Speaker 2: hanging out in a hot tub. 62 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:40,200 Speaker 1: All right. That's good to know. Well, I am jealous, 63 00:03:40,320 --> 00:03:43,920 Speaker 1: very jealous, because I am a huge Simpsons fan and 64 00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:46,880 Speaker 1: I try to get my kiddos into the Simpsons also 65 00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:50,680 Speaker 1: they get looped into the Halloween specials, and so I 66 00:03:50,800 --> 00:03:55,560 Speaker 1: really admire her as an actress and as a voice actress, 67 00:03:55,560 --> 00:03:57,840 Speaker 1: and I just think it's great. I'm super happy, and 68 00:03:57,880 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 1: I hear she's a super fan, maybe not a super fan, 69 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:02,640 Speaker 1: and she's a fan fan of Buried Bones, so that's good. 70 00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:06,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, she listens to Buried Bones. I think she's a 71 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:08,720 Speaker 2: fan of yours. So you know, let's see if you've 72 00:04:08,760 --> 00:04:11,000 Speaker 2: got some sort of mutual thing going on there. 73 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:14,120 Speaker 1: Well, what a wonderful way to start an episode. I 74 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:17,520 Speaker 1: like to start on a you know, positive note here, 75 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:22,720 Speaker 1: because you know, we now are pivoting into a well, 76 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:27,880 Speaker 1: I think is a really complicated kidnapping case, and we've 77 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:30,599 Speaker 1: had those before. I mean, I just feel like the 78 00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:34,839 Speaker 1: more kidnapping episodes we cover, the nuttier these people get 79 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:38,360 Speaker 1: and the requests that they make it And I feel like, 80 00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:41,760 Speaker 1: you know, we've covered kidnappings from all all different sorts 81 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:44,240 Speaker 1: of decades and we're going to be in the nineteen 82 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:48,040 Speaker 1: seventies in England for this one. But the requests from 83 00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:51,560 Speaker 1: kidnappers just get stranger and stranger. So I always am 84 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:54,440 Speaker 1: fascinated about your reaction. You always have like a quizzical 85 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:56,839 Speaker 1: look on your face. I wish listeners could see it 86 00:04:56,920 --> 00:05:00,280 Speaker 1: every time we talk about some of these weird us 87 00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:02,080 Speaker 1: that the kidnappers make. So this will be a good 88 00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:02,520 Speaker 1: one for you. 89 00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:05,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know. And I can remember we had the 90 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:10,479 Speaker 2: one episode where the mail that was kidnapped and I 91 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:13,240 Speaker 2: was really suspicious of him, like he had staged his 92 00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:16,680 Speaker 2: own abduction and turned out to be very very wrong, 93 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:20,320 Speaker 2: you know. But I do remember some of the requests 94 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:23,400 Speaker 2: in that particular episode were so bizarre. I'm like, oh, 95 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:25,880 Speaker 2: this this just doesn't sound right. Well it turns out 96 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:28,120 Speaker 2: it was right, you know, And so I'm kind of 97 00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:31,599 Speaker 2: curious to see, you know, this case and what kind 98 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:33,520 Speaker 2: of requests the kidnappers are going to make. 99 00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:37,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, let's go ahead and set the scene. So 100 00:05:37,600 --> 00:05:41,440 Speaker 1: this is nineteen seventy five England, and this is a big, big, big, 101 00:05:41,520 --> 00:05:43,800 Speaker 1: big one. I mean, there's lots of evidence, I have 102 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:47,240 Speaker 1: good photos, there's lots to talk about. It's a double episode, 103 00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:50,719 Speaker 1: too big. Once I saw the prep document, I thought, man, 104 00:05:50,839 --> 00:05:53,159 Speaker 1: this is really big. So this will be a good 105 00:05:53,160 --> 00:05:56,400 Speaker 1: episode for us to really dig into. I think the 106 00:05:56,440 --> 00:05:59,040 Speaker 1: way that kidnappers work and what they're thinking when they 107 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:01,800 Speaker 1: do stuff like this, so we won't like, you know, 108 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:04,520 Speaker 1: dink around with this. As I say, my kids don't 109 00:06:04,520 --> 00:06:06,440 Speaker 1: think around like this. We're not going to dink around 110 00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:08,760 Speaker 1: this is let me tell you who the victim is, 111 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:12,839 Speaker 1: which just already sets me on edge. It is a 112 00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:15,400 Speaker 1: seventeen year old girl, which is already you know, my 113 00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:18,160 Speaker 1: kids are almost fifteen, so that's already I'm already kind 114 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:20,400 Speaker 1: of on edge to begin with with a story about 115 00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:24,600 Speaker 1: a teenager. She's very small, she's five foot tall, and 116 00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:26,960 Speaker 1: that kind of plays into this. I mean, what would 117 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:29,400 Speaker 1: you say, Paul, So she's if you have a kidnapping 118 00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:32,159 Speaker 1: victim who's small, five feet it's just like you're going 119 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:34,440 Speaker 1: to assume that this is somebody who's not going to 120 00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:35,520 Speaker 1: put up as much of a fight. 121 00:06:35,560 --> 00:06:38,440 Speaker 2: I guess, well, I wouldn't necessarily say that. I mean, 122 00:06:38,480 --> 00:06:41,880 Speaker 2: you could in terms of putting up a fight versus 123 00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:47,200 Speaker 2: being effective at the fight as probably how I differentiate that. Then, 124 00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:51,520 Speaker 2: of course, when you start dealing with evaluating the victim 125 00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:54,560 Speaker 2: who's five foot nothing, you know, sounds like a petite 126 00:06:54,560 --> 00:06:58,520 Speaker 2: seventeen year old girl. And let's say the kidnapper is 127 00:06:58,560 --> 00:07:03,240 Speaker 2: a more robust male. Obviously, the male has a size 128 00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:08,440 Speaker 2: and strength advantage, which gives that offender greater latitude in 129 00:07:08,520 --> 00:07:13,360 Speaker 2: terms of how to conduct the abduction versus you know, 130 00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:16,840 Speaker 2: is it an offender who's having to use charm and 131 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:20,200 Speaker 2: lowering the victim versus an offender who could literally pick 132 00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:22,720 Speaker 2: this girl up, sling her over his shoulder and walk 133 00:07:22,720 --> 00:07:25,200 Speaker 2: her out to a vehicle. You know. So that's going 134 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:27,400 Speaker 2: to be part of As I hear the details, I'm 135 00:07:27,400 --> 00:07:30,280 Speaker 2: going to be starting to assess, well, you know, how 136 00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 2: did the offender approach the victim and how was she abducted? 137 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:37,840 Speaker 2: Because that speaks volumes to certain attributes of the offender. 138 00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:41,440 Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, well here we go. This was a case 139 00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:45,560 Speaker 1: recommended by a listener. Thank you listener. This involves, as 140 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:48,080 Speaker 1: I said at petit seventeen year old girl. Her name 141 00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:53,640 Speaker 1: is Leslie Whittle and she lives in highly Shropshire hopefully 142 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:56,120 Speaker 1: I said that right, which is a village in the 143 00:07:56,160 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 1: West Midlands of England. She has a very comfortable life. 144 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:04,240 Speaker 1: We are talking upper class because her father is a businessman. 145 00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:07,840 Speaker 1: His name is George Whittell, and he runs a sizable 146 00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:11,440 Speaker 1: and successful bus company coach company in the United States, 147 00:08:11,480 --> 00:08:14,720 Speaker 1: we'd say bus company. When he died in seventy two, 148 00:08:15,120 --> 00:08:18,600 Speaker 1: he left behind a fortune of three hundred thousand British 149 00:08:18,640 --> 00:08:21,880 Speaker 1: pounds to his surviving family. This is I'm going to 150 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:24,840 Speaker 1: convert things to American dollars. This is like just south 151 00:08:24,880 --> 00:08:26,840 Speaker 1: of five million, I would say four and a half 152 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:30,840 Speaker 1: million maybe dollars today. This includes his wife, Dorothy, she's 153 00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:33,959 Speaker 1: in her fifties, and he has a son named Ron 154 00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:36,640 Speaker 1: who is in his early thirties. And then there's Leslie 155 00:08:36,679 --> 00:08:40,720 Speaker 1: who's seventeen. So she actually gets a portion that is 156 00:08:40,960 --> 00:08:44,720 Speaker 1: substantial eighty two thousand, which is you know, about a 157 00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:47,240 Speaker 1: million pounds now, which is you know, one and a 158 00:08:47,280 --> 00:08:49,880 Speaker 1: half million dollars. I would say, So she gets us 159 00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:53,960 Speaker 1: at seventeen. Here's the problem. It's widely reported that she 160 00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:57,679 Speaker 1: got this inheritance in local newspapers. I've never understood this, 161 00:08:58,000 --> 00:08:59,800 Speaker 1: you know, I mean, don't you think that would make 162 00:08:59,840 --> 00:09:01,880 Speaker 1: her a target? And I'm not, like I said, I'm 163 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:04,360 Speaker 1: not dinking around with this one. She's the target here. 164 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:07,040 Speaker 1: So a seventeen year old who has about a million 165 00:09:07,160 --> 00:09:11,040 Speaker 1: and a half dollars to day dollars in an inheritance. 166 00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:16,160 Speaker 2: Well, I think just the family wealth is driving any 167 00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:19,480 Speaker 2: of them to be a target her inheriting the money. 168 00:09:19,520 --> 00:09:22,960 Speaker 2: Of course, maybe an offender would be evaluating this as 169 00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:25,600 Speaker 2: a seventeen year old girl. Is there a way I 170 00:09:25,679 --> 00:09:29,640 Speaker 2: can steal from her, rob from her if in an 171 00:09:29,679 --> 00:09:33,920 Speaker 2: abduction situation, it's not unheard of her offenders will force 172 00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:37,520 Speaker 2: victims to withdraw from their bank right checks, you know, 173 00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:43,560 Speaker 2: so this is a direct robbery of the victim's financial assets. However, 174 00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:48,520 Speaker 2: in this scenario, there's greater assets with the other family members. 175 00:09:48,880 --> 00:09:53,760 Speaker 2: And so now is Leslie when she gets abducted. Is 176 00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:59,360 Speaker 2: the offender or offenders utilizing her safety as leverage to 177 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:02,200 Speaker 2: get access to the larger sums of money that the 178 00:10:02,240 --> 00:10:02,880 Speaker 2: family has. 179 00:10:06,160 --> 00:10:08,960 Speaker 1: Let's see what happens. This family's worth a lot of money. 180 00:10:09,160 --> 00:10:12,080 Speaker 1: And now the patriarch has gone, and there is a 181 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:15,160 Speaker 1: son who's in his thirties but not around. It doesn't 182 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:19,079 Speaker 1: sound like he lives somewhere else. And then Leslie. This 183 00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:22,560 Speaker 1: is January fourteenth, nineteen seventy five, and we are at 184 00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:26,320 Speaker 1: the Wittell home. Dorothy is wondering, so this is the mother. 185 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:29,520 Speaker 1: Dorothy wonders why Leslie hasn't come down for breakfast yet. 186 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:32,840 Speaker 1: That morning, she goes upstairs to look for Leslie, but 187 00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:35,560 Speaker 1: she's not in her bedroom and she doesn't seem to 188 00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:39,040 Speaker 1: be anywhere in the house. Dorothy is really nervous. She 189 00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:42,960 Speaker 1: calls to the adult son, Ron, who lives nearby, but 190 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:47,199 Speaker 1: her phone isn't working, so she rushes over to Ron's 191 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:50,360 Speaker 1: house and returns to her own house alongside him, and 192 00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:52,880 Speaker 1: together they start looking for Leslie, but they don't find her. 193 00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:57,400 Speaker 1: They do discover that what you probably have silently suspected 194 00:10:57,400 --> 00:10:59,640 Speaker 1: that someone cut the phone lines to the house. 195 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:00,280 Speaker 2: Okay. 196 00:11:00,480 --> 00:11:03,160 Speaker 1: They also find a box of candy that has been 197 00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:06,600 Speaker 1: left in front of the homes fireplace, which seems odd. 198 00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:09,400 Speaker 1: They look in this box of candy and there are 199 00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:15,160 Speaker 1: several messages created with a Dimo label maker, which is 200 00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:18,280 Speaker 1: a device that punches letters and numbers onto a plastic tape, 201 00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:20,240 Speaker 1: like you know, I mean, I have a label maker 202 00:11:20,280 --> 00:11:24,559 Speaker 1: at home. Yeah, so this is a message, right, and 203 00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:28,920 Speaker 1: the message demands a ransom of fifty thousand pounds for 204 00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:32,200 Speaker 1: Leslie's safe return, which is quite a lot of money today, 205 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:34,440 Speaker 1: about a million, maybe a little less than a million 206 00:11:34,480 --> 00:11:37,480 Speaker 1: American dollars. I have a photo of the house, and 207 00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:41,280 Speaker 1: I have a photo of this Dimo label maker message. 208 00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:43,120 Speaker 1: If you want to see those, or if you want 209 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:43,960 Speaker 1: to keep going. 210 00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:45,520 Speaker 2: No, I'll go ahead and take a look at this. 211 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:51,079 Speaker 1: Okay, So let's start with the house. You know, it's 212 00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:52,840 Speaker 1: a big house. It's as fancy as I thought it 213 00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:54,680 Speaker 1: could be. But still, I mean, you know, it's a 214 00:11:54,679 --> 00:11:55,880 Speaker 1: big house. What do you think. 215 00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:59,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, when you're telling me that Leslie is not 216 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:02,880 Speaker 2: inside the how and that it appears that the offender 217 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:05,599 Speaker 2: or offenders left this box of candy with the message, 218 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:08,080 Speaker 2: you know, the first thing I thought about is okay, 219 00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:13,440 Speaker 2: so even with Mom Dorothy inside the house, it sounds 220 00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:16,880 Speaker 2: like the offenders somehow gained entry into the house and 221 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:19,640 Speaker 2: took Leslie without Mom hearing a thing. So now I'm 222 00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:21,680 Speaker 2: looking at a photo of this house, and you know, 223 00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:24,080 Speaker 2: in the foreground it appears that there this is a 224 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:27,520 Speaker 2: photo taken during some sort of search. There are men, 225 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:32,720 Speaker 2: numerous men with dogs that are out. I'm assuming this 226 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:35,200 Speaker 2: is the front yard. It's you know, doesn't look like 227 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:40,560 Speaker 2: a traditional street. And directly behind the men with the 228 00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:45,280 Speaker 2: dogs is a fairly tall hedge, is how I describe it. 229 00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:48,840 Speaker 2: And then beyond that hedge is a two story house. 230 00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:52,360 Speaker 2: What strikes me about at least this side of the house, 231 00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:54,320 Speaker 2: and I can't tell if this is the front side 232 00:12:54,400 --> 00:13:00,320 Speaker 2: or not, but there's very large windows all across this 233 00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 2: side of the house. 234 00:13:01,679 --> 00:13:03,720 Speaker 1: I would bet Paul, this is the back because look 235 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:07,240 Speaker 1: that ugly antenna is right there, yeah, you know, sticking 236 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:09,280 Speaker 1: up above. I would bet this is the back. And 237 00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:12,320 Speaker 1: I also wonder if there's a building to the upper 238 00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:15,199 Speaker 1: left or if that's one of their buildings. 239 00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:17,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, the to the left of the house, 240 00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:22,520 Speaker 2: I'm guessing that's maybe a garage, maybe a detached garage. 241 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:25,960 Speaker 2: I think you're right, you know, this is likely the 242 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:28,720 Speaker 2: back of the house. I'm not seeing anything even that 243 00:13:28,920 --> 00:13:33,200 Speaker 2: suggests that there is a a an entrance, you know, 244 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:35,560 Speaker 2: that would be what would be considered a front entrance. 245 00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:38,800 Speaker 2: So the house looks like it has some size. It 246 00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:42,400 Speaker 2: does appear that it's a visibility into the house. Is 247 00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:47,479 Speaker 2: it's significant, you know, these large windows. I'm not seeing curtains. 248 00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:50,160 Speaker 2: It appears that at least with the windows that I 249 00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:54,679 Speaker 2: can see that there's plane view into the house, and 250 00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:57,680 Speaker 2: that would be a significant portion of the interior of 251 00:13:57,679 --> 00:14:01,319 Speaker 2: the house and an offender could see from the outside. 252 00:14:01,559 --> 00:14:03,920 Speaker 2: You know, this is a wealthier family. I'm assuming that 253 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:09,520 Speaker 2: this house is something that is fitting with their lifestyle. 254 00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:14,520 Speaker 2: So the size of the house definitely aids the offender. 255 00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:18,360 Speaker 2: If Leslie, let's say she was last seen going into 256 00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:21,520 Speaker 2: her bedroom or in her bedroom. And Mom's bedroom is, 257 00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:23,920 Speaker 2: you know, on the other side of the house. And yes, 258 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:26,680 Speaker 2: I could easily see an offender coming in and abducting 259 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:30,200 Speaker 2: a petit seventeen year old girl, keeping her quiet either 260 00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:33,760 Speaker 2: by force or fear, and getting her outside of the house. 261 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:36,880 Speaker 1: And it's just these two women. It's Dorothy and her daughter. 262 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:39,480 Speaker 1: So that's it in this house. You know you had 263 00:14:39,520 --> 00:14:41,320 Speaker 1: mentioned this hedge. This is what I would call a 264 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:44,320 Speaker 1: privacy hedge, and it is substantial. I mean it's tall 265 00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:47,320 Speaker 1: and taller than these men who are standing next to it. 266 00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:49,920 Speaker 1: I don't know if there's a wire above it or something. 267 00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:53,800 Speaker 1: It definitely looks like some kind of privacy like security. 268 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:56,720 Speaker 1: There's a gate there. But then you're right, I mean, 269 00:14:56,760 --> 00:15:00,360 Speaker 1: the upper floors are completely exposed right below the I 270 00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:03,400 Speaker 1: don't know if those are terracotta tiles. But let me 271 00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:07,000 Speaker 1: show you this message, so I don't know. You see 272 00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:08,680 Speaker 1: where the chimney is, which was on the left hand 273 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:11,240 Speaker 1: side of the house. I don't know if Leslie's room 274 00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:13,920 Speaker 1: is right above where the chimney is. And you know, 275 00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:17,320 Speaker 1: whoever took her went downstairs and just sort of dropped 276 00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:19,760 Speaker 1: this candy box on the ground, but this is what 277 00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:23,120 Speaker 1: was inside. So this is it says, well, why don't 278 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:24,520 Speaker 1: you read it? Tell me what you think. 279 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:28,680 Speaker 2: So this is a single strip of this dimo plastic 280 00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:32,920 Speaker 2: you know, and I remember utilizing these in you know, 281 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:35,440 Speaker 2: when I was much younger. You know, the offender is 282 00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:40,640 Speaker 2: having to rotate a wheel and then press on a 283 00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:46,640 Speaker 2: handle that causes like a crimping aspect where the plastic 284 00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:49,960 Speaker 2: where it gets crimped. Now it changes color in the 285 00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:54,600 Speaker 2: shape of the letter. So this is a dark background 286 00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:58,920 Speaker 2: with white letters, single strip, and it says only after 287 00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:03,920 Speaker 2: fifty thousand pounds has been cleared will victim be released. 288 00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:07,640 Speaker 2: So obviously this is an essence a ransom note in 289 00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:10,280 Speaker 2: a very unusual format. 290 00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:13,880 Speaker 1: I mean, obviously he doesn't want to do this with handwriting, 291 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:17,440 Speaker 1: because it's seventy five. Everybody knows that there's handwriting analysis. 292 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:20,080 Speaker 1: This is an odd choice, right, I mean, I've seen 293 00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:24,120 Speaker 1: kidnappers do everything from you know, newspaper clippings to make 294 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:28,160 Speaker 1: the letters, to obviously using a typewriter or computer. I 295 00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:30,680 Speaker 1: don't know if this choice is going to be significant 296 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:33,320 Speaker 1: using a label maker, but this is certainly what he did, 297 00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:35,720 Speaker 1: and there's obviously more lines than just this one that 298 00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:37,800 Speaker 1: they just wanted to just show an example here. 299 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:40,400 Speaker 2: Sure, well, you know, this is an offender who is 300 00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:44,160 Speaker 2: trying to think about physical evidence, and so in the 301 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:49,760 Speaker 2: offender's mind, by utilizing this DIMO device to craft the 302 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:55,080 Speaker 2: ransom note, he's avoiding leaving physical evidence. However, he's not 303 00:16:55,600 --> 00:17:00,200 Speaker 2: knowledgeable enough about how forensics can actually get a ton 304 00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:06,159 Speaker 2: of evidence from this type of material. You know, of 305 00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:11,800 Speaker 2: course we're seeing the investigator's hands, assuming it's investigators are 306 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:15,760 Speaker 2: some you know, authorities, hands with no gloves on. You know, 307 00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:20,160 Speaker 2: this plastic is a very good surface for latent prints. 308 00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:22,800 Speaker 2: It's so narrow that you'd only get partial prints. But 309 00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:26,359 Speaker 2: of course now we have some contamination from whoever bare 310 00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:29,240 Speaker 2: fingers are showing here to kind of hold on to 311 00:17:29,359 --> 00:17:33,320 Speaker 2: this strip, you know, But this this device, there may 312 00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:38,960 Speaker 2: be characteristics that, due to the wear of this device 313 00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:43,520 Speaker 2: previously being used, might be unique to this particular device. 314 00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:49,280 Speaker 2: The finding of the source material for this ransom you know, plastic, 315 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:51,760 Speaker 2: if you will, if it's with the device and the 316 00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:56,720 Speaker 2: fender's home, you know that significant fingerprints, of course could 317 00:17:56,720 --> 00:18:00,359 Speaker 2: be recovered from this material. And in this ana, it 318 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:02,959 Speaker 2: also would be a source of DNA, but you know, 319 00:18:03,280 --> 00:18:07,520 Speaker 2: it informs me that the offender is trying in his 320 00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:11,760 Speaker 2: mind to limit the amount of evidence that law enforcement 321 00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:16,760 Speaker 2: can use to identify him or her. 322 00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:21,520 Speaker 1: Okay, So these are messages that demand a ransom as 323 00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:24,440 Speaker 1: you had read, of fifty thousand pounds for Leslie's safe return, 324 00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:28,960 Speaker 1: and they instruct a member of the family to go 325 00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:33,200 Speaker 1: to a specific telephone box like the classic red payphones 326 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:36,080 Speaker 1: that you find, you know, in the United Kingdom, at 327 00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:39,840 Speaker 1: the Swan shopping center later that night. So this is 328 00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:42,280 Speaker 1: in a town, at a shopping center that's about ten 329 00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:46,520 Speaker 1: to fifteen miles away from where they are. Once at 330 00:18:46,520 --> 00:18:49,680 Speaker 1: the payphone, the family member has to wait for a 331 00:18:49,720 --> 00:18:54,000 Speaker 1: call from the kidnapper, who will then give further instructions 332 00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:57,320 Speaker 1: that will culminate in a ransom drop and Leslie's release. 333 00:18:57,560 --> 00:19:01,400 Speaker 1: So the kidnappers call will come so time between six 334 00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:05,199 Speaker 1: pm and one am on this night. You know that 335 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:08,840 Speaker 1: she's been kidnapped in January. There's another message printed on 336 00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:13,119 Speaker 1: dimo tape that the kidnapper says, you are on a 337 00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:18,399 Speaker 1: time limit if police or tricks death. What do you 338 00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:22,000 Speaker 1: think so far? Besides he doesn't want to type too anymore, 339 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:24,240 Speaker 1: and he's losing. He's leaving out a lot of words 340 00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:25,920 Speaker 1: in these messages. I guess that's what happens when you 341 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:28,560 Speaker 1: use a label maker as your ransom note generator. 342 00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:34,200 Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, I mean this is, right now, pretty prototypical language. 343 00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:40,119 Speaker 2: You know. It is leveraging Leslie's safety for money, the 344 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:42,760 Speaker 2: use of the dimo. You know. I remember having to, 345 00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:46,680 Speaker 2: you know, twist each letter for the word crimp it off, 346 00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:48,960 Speaker 2: go to the next letter. It is a kind of 347 00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:53,120 Speaker 2: a time consuming process to do, and that possibly contributes 348 00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:57,040 Speaker 2: to the curtness, if you will, of the message. But 349 00:19:57,119 --> 00:20:00,879 Speaker 2: the message is effective. It's not like it's leaving out 350 00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:04,960 Speaker 2: any clarity of what the intent is. And at least 351 00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:08,080 Speaker 2: with the previous strip, it looked like all the words 352 00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:12,119 Speaker 2: were spelled correctly, you know, so that might indicate something 353 00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:13,240 Speaker 2: about the offender too. 354 00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:16,399 Speaker 1: Okay, so we're thinking this one might be of the 355 00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:18,720 Speaker 1: range of offenders that we've had, this might be one 356 00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:20,399 Speaker 1: of the more intelligent ones. I guess we're going to 357 00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:22,560 Speaker 1: find out then, right, Well. 358 00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:25,159 Speaker 2: I want to go that far. At least it's not 359 00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:28,880 Speaker 2: so because we've had some you know, ransom letters in 360 00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:32,719 Speaker 2: which the grammar and the spelling of the words is 361 00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:37,240 Speaker 2: just so poor, and sometimes it's purposely done as a 362 00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:41,080 Speaker 2: form of staging, so the offender is making him look 363 00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:43,560 Speaker 2: like somebody else that he's not, or it's just that 364 00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:46,160 Speaker 2: the offender is just not very well educated. 365 00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:51,480 Speaker 1: So Ron and Dorothy, so the mother and the son 366 00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:56,400 Speaker 1: are prepared, they're ready to pay this ransom. But despite 367 00:20:56,560 --> 00:20:59,200 Speaker 1: the threat, they always call the police. You know, despite 368 00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:01,960 Speaker 1: the threat from the capers, Ron decides he's going to 369 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:04,919 Speaker 1: call the police. And I'm never quite sure what the 370 00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:09,720 Speaker 1: right answer is here, because we have never seen anything 371 00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:12,919 Speaker 1: good come from calling the police in any of our 372 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:16,520 Speaker 1: ransom stories. But you know, Ron calls the police and 373 00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:19,520 Speaker 1: they start quietly working with the police. So what do 374 00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:21,080 Speaker 1: you think about that it's always a good idea to 375 00:21:21,119 --> 00:21:24,200 Speaker 1: call investigators. I'm assuming I. 376 00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:27,520 Speaker 2: Think, yeah, you know, I think in most instances, you know, 377 00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:32,720 Speaker 2: to have the types of resources that authorities have in 378 00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:38,159 Speaker 2: order to be able to investigate and monitor, you know, 379 00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:44,600 Speaker 2: do surveillance. I think there's a greater ability with bringing 380 00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:48,080 Speaker 2: law enforcement in right off the bat of being able 381 00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:52,840 Speaker 2: to possibly catch the offenders prior to the loved one 382 00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:56,840 Speaker 2: suffering harm or more harm. You know, it would be 383 00:21:56,880 --> 00:21:59,200 Speaker 2: a tough one though. You know, if your your loved 384 00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:02,800 Speaker 2: one is abductive and now there's threat of that loved 385 00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:05,600 Speaker 2: one's life if you do notify authorities, you know, you 386 00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:08,520 Speaker 2: kind of are You've got to be second guessing. Well, 387 00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:11,399 Speaker 2: how are the offenders monitoring me? 388 00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:12,320 Speaker 1: You know? 389 00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:15,720 Speaker 2: Could I do something that inadvertently I have no idea 390 00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:18,359 Speaker 2: that the offenders would be able to find out, and 391 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:22,280 Speaker 2: now my loved one is hurt, so I can see 392 00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:25,640 Speaker 2: where the dilemma is. My position would be is, yeah, 393 00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:29,960 Speaker 2: I think it is more favorable to pull in law 394 00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:33,520 Speaker 2: enforcement up front than to try to handle this situation 395 00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:35,000 Speaker 2: just as a family. 396 00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:38,160 Speaker 1: Well that's what Ron wants to do. So they called 397 00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:41,880 Speaker 1: the police. They start working with the family. The officers 398 00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:44,800 Speaker 1: don't find very much physical evidence at all. They think 399 00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:48,080 Speaker 1: that Leslie was basically taken right from her bedroom, and 400 00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:51,399 Speaker 1: they said the only items that Dorothy say are missing 401 00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:55,160 Speaker 1: from the room were Leslie's blue robe and her pair 402 00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:58,600 Speaker 1: of slippers. It's the dead of winter, it's very very cold, 403 00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:00,800 Speaker 1: so they said she didn't even have a She is 404 00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:04,120 Speaker 1: not willingly leaving the house with a boyfriend or some 405 00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:07,359 Speaker 1: you know anything. She was taken. They really feel pretty 406 00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:11,800 Speaker 1: strongly about that. There's no substantial clothing taken along. So 407 00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:16,360 Speaker 1: once the police become involved, then the press becomes involved. 408 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:18,919 Speaker 1: And this is the big problem. And we've seen this 409 00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:22,200 Speaker 1: with other stories too. There is a leak somewhere. Somebody 410 00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:24,639 Speaker 1: is leaking in all of our stories. Somebody leaks to 411 00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:29,359 Speaker 1: the press just hours after she's discovered missing. Paul, listen 412 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:32,320 Speaker 1: to this. The BBC breaks in on the evening news 413 00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:38,040 Speaker 1: because she's an heiress, very wealthy, young teenage girl, an heiress, 414 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:41,560 Speaker 1: and she is missing, and the BBC breaks in and 415 00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:45,240 Speaker 1: the police freak out, as would anybody, and they say, 416 00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:48,080 Speaker 1: this obviously is going to spook the kidnapper, and they 417 00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:51,439 Speaker 1: call off the plan to have Ron wait at this 418 00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:55,480 Speaker 1: designated payphone with the ransom money. So you know, the 419 00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:58,360 Speaker 1: kidnappers had given him specific instructions, and the police say, 420 00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:00,720 Speaker 1: we're not going to do that. I'm not sure that's 421 00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:02,359 Speaker 1: a great idea, But what do you think. 422 00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:04,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm not sure why they would have him not 423 00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:08,679 Speaker 2: do it unless the media got a hold of the 424 00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:12,199 Speaker 2: information as to which telephone booth and that window of 425 00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:14,760 Speaker 2: time that he was supposed to receive a phone call. 426 00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:19,080 Speaker 2: I would imagine with the high profile nature of this 427 00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:24,520 Speaker 2: family that now you know what we've seen over there 428 00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:28,720 Speaker 2: in Britain with the paparazzi. You know, they're very, very aggressive. 429 00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:32,400 Speaker 2: So I imagine you possibly have media that's following we're 430 00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:34,879 Speaker 2: on around you now that they know about it, and 431 00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:37,280 Speaker 2: that maybe why law enforcement is saying, okay, hold on, 432 00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:40,600 Speaker 2: you know, we can't have this. This just isn't going 433 00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:42,560 Speaker 2: to work because the media is going to see what 434 00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:44,879 Speaker 2: telephone booth we're on is going to and that he 435 00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:47,679 Speaker 2: has I mean, the kidnappers said anywhere. I think he 436 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:51,000 Speaker 2: said like from six pm to one am, like some 437 00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:54,480 Speaker 2: huge window of time that they might be calling within 438 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:58,640 Speaker 2: that whole plan is shot. I'm now understanding why law 439 00:24:58,680 --> 00:24:59,960 Speaker 2: enforcement would call this off. 440 00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:03,080 Speaker 1: Okay, so now we kind of have to deviate into 441 00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:06,119 Speaker 1: a little bit of a different storyline that works with 442 00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:10,560 Speaker 1: the main storyline. So Ron does not call one am 443 00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:14,200 Speaker 1: passes A few hours after that, in the very early 444 00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:17,880 Speaker 1: hours of January fifteenth, there is a security guard named 445 00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:21,560 Speaker 1: Gerald Smith. He's on shift at a rail yard in Dudley, 446 00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:24,040 Speaker 1: which is about twenty five miles east of highly He's 447 00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:28,359 Speaker 1: forty four, and during his shift he sees a man 448 00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:32,240 Speaker 1: driving around the property and he approaches this guy. He 449 00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:35,359 Speaker 1: doesn't belong here. It's unclear if at this point the 450 00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:37,360 Speaker 1: man is in the vehicle or if he's outside of it, 451 00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:41,080 Speaker 1: but Gerald confronts him, says, you're not supposed to be here, 452 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:44,560 Speaker 1: it's late, and he is shot six times. The gunman 453 00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:47,800 Speaker 1: then flees on foot, leaving the car that he was 454 00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:50,160 Speaker 1: driving behind, and I have a picture of that car. 455 00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:54,600 Speaker 1: It is related to this case. Gerald survives, He makes 456 00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:58,879 Speaker 1: it back to his office and he calls for help, 457 00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:03,920 Speaker 1: and the newspaper reports say that what the gunman wanted 458 00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:08,159 Speaker 1: and why he acted with such ferocity when challenged is 459 00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:11,160 Speaker 1: puzzling to police. And then they start searching for this, 460 00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:15,400 Speaker 1: you know, countrywide hunt for this man. Of course, they're 461 00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:17,880 Speaker 1: not quite connecting it. I know they're connected, but they're 462 00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:21,200 Speaker 1: not quite connecting this yet. So we have had some 463 00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:24,240 Speaker 1: really dumb kidnappers, you know, where things have happened and 464 00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:26,680 Speaker 1: it's they've been sort of not accidental, but they're kind 465 00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:31,080 Speaker 1: of bumbling kidnappers. These are connected, and this is violent. 466 00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:33,479 Speaker 1: So this is somebody who is using a gun and 467 00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:34,480 Speaker 1: almost killed someone. 468 00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:38,119 Speaker 2: Well, I think it's you know, we're talking over there 469 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:41,840 Speaker 2: in Britain where there aren't a lot of guns. Right, 470 00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:44,119 Speaker 2: of course, I'm kind of curious if the security guard 471 00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:46,560 Speaker 2: got a description of the type of firearm, description of 472 00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:48,639 Speaker 2: the offender who shot him. You said, you have a 473 00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:52,800 Speaker 2: photograph of the car, you know, so this is in 474 00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:55,800 Speaker 2: many ways. Of course, you know, law enforcements treated it 475 00:26:55,880 --> 00:27:00,400 Speaker 2: as a standalone seeing a standalone case and know it's 476 00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:04,520 Speaker 2: related to Leslie's subduction, But there could be a lot 477 00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:09,280 Speaker 2: of evidence that could help solve who this offender was 478 00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:10,640 Speaker 2: in the security guard shooting. 479 00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:13,000 Speaker 1: I'll show you the car in a second, because I 480 00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:15,480 Speaker 1: have a second photo that goes with the car that 481 00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:19,159 Speaker 1: makes the connection for us between Leslie's kidnapping and this 482 00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:23,800 Speaker 1: shooting of this guard at this freightline yard. Okay, so 483 00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:28,760 Speaker 1: the kidnapper does not apparently know that the police are 484 00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:32,560 Speaker 1: working with this family, so he connects with the family. 485 00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:37,800 Speaker 1: So he kidnaps her on the fourteenth of January. Two 486 00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:40,399 Speaker 1: days later, he gets in touch with the family with 487 00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:43,120 Speaker 1: a phone call to her house. You know, he cut 488 00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:45,720 Speaker 1: their phone lines. We're assuming so I guess he thought 489 00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:48,879 Speaker 1: they were getting him fixed. He calls Dorothy's house and instead, 490 00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:52,520 Speaker 1: so listen to this instead of talking to the family. 491 00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:55,480 Speaker 1: He when they pick up, he plays a tape recording 492 00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:59,240 Speaker 1: of Leslie's voice, which must have just been terrifying. Sure, 493 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:01,479 Speaker 1: I'll tell you what she said, but you tell me 494 00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:02,280 Speaker 1: what you think first. 495 00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:07,600 Speaker 2: Well. I think using the victim's voice in part is 496 00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:11,720 Speaker 2: to try to convince the family that Leslie is still 497 00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:17,240 Speaker 2: alive and is still cognisant. However, by using a tape recording, 498 00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:20,359 Speaker 2: you know, that is something that could have been recorded 499 00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:25,280 Speaker 2: earlier and Leslie could have suffered harm where she is 500 00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:30,639 Speaker 2: no longer alive, you know, Yet the offender can utilize 501 00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:33,359 Speaker 2: that recording to convince the family to move forward with 502 00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:36,920 Speaker 2: the ransom aspect. Of course, you know, the offender is 503 00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:41,680 Speaker 2: also using Leslie's voice to pull out the heartstrings. You know. Okay, 504 00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:44,920 Speaker 2: there's my loved one is on the other end, and 505 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:47,560 Speaker 2: I have to double down and get the money out 506 00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:50,440 Speaker 2: so I can get Leslie back. Is probably part of 507 00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:53,840 Speaker 2: the reason to use her voice and the offender. By 508 00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:59,200 Speaker 2: recording Leslie as opposed to having Leslie just talk on 509 00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:02,880 Speaker 2: the phone, the defender has absolute control over what is 510 00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:07,200 Speaker 2: said over that phone call, versus Leslie blurting something out 511 00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:10,880 Speaker 2: that the offender doesn't want blurted out during let's say 512 00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:12,200 Speaker 2: a live phone call. 513 00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:17,640 Speaker 1: Well, this is terrifying, I'm sure to her mother. This 514 00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:22,280 Speaker 1: is what the taped message says in Leslie's voice, Mum, 515 00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:27,800 Speaker 1: you are to go to the Kidsgrove Post office telephone box. 516 00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:32,040 Speaker 1: That's another town. The instructions are inside behind the backboard. 517 00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:37,040 Speaker 1: I'm okay, but there's to be no police and no tricks. Okay. 518 00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:40,240 Speaker 1: And he plays it twice. So what do you think 519 00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:40,680 Speaker 1: about that? 520 00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:45,880 Speaker 2: It's completely in line with the first instructions that had 521 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:50,520 Speaker 2: been left that weren't followed through on. This appears to 522 00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:54,600 Speaker 2: be a process that the offender has got worked out 523 00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:57,600 Speaker 2: in his head that he's comfortable with. And I wonder, 524 00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:02,880 Speaker 2: you know, the these telephone booth they have a they're 525 00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:06,920 Speaker 2: somewhat spread out, right, you know, because they're they're standalone. 526 00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:09,520 Speaker 2: You don't have like a cluster of these where you 527 00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:11,600 Speaker 2: have a bunch of people, you know, like we'll see 528 00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:14,360 Speaker 2: like banks of payphones back in the day here in 529 00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:16,280 Speaker 2: the United States, and so you have people that are 530 00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:20,640 Speaker 2: just constantly flowing up to these payphones. These telephone booths 531 00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:26,200 Speaker 2: are stand alone, and I would imagine that he's selecting 532 00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:32,080 Speaker 2: telephone boosts that he can observe without being seen himself, 533 00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:37,320 Speaker 2: just to see is let's say Dorothy alone and if 534 00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:39,960 Speaker 2: it's not him, you know, do we have do we 535 00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:42,400 Speaker 2: have a group that's involved with this? Is is there 536 00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:44,280 Speaker 2: a member of the group that would be able to 537 00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:49,240 Speaker 2: observe this telephone booth from afar and see and evaluate 538 00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:52,360 Speaker 2: whether or not Dorothy's following instructions and doesn't appear that 539 00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:55,760 Speaker 2: there's any law enforcement or any any shenanigans going on 540 00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:56,920 Speaker 2: on Dorothy's. 541 00:30:56,440 --> 00:31:00,640 Speaker 1: Part, Well, let's continue on. They put a wae him, 542 00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:03,680 Speaker 1: which I'm not sure in seventy five, what do you 543 00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:05,920 Speaker 1: think that would have been, Like, what's a wire from 544 00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:08,680 Speaker 1: the police in seventy five, Well. 545 00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:12,080 Speaker 2: You know, it would be a microphone that would feed 546 00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:16,160 Speaker 2: into a recording device. And back in the seventies, likely 547 00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:19,840 Speaker 2: some sort of cassette tape. And I'm not sure if 548 00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:24,240 Speaker 2: this would have been you know, the standard size cassettes 549 00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:27,160 Speaker 2: that we used to buy our music on, or they 550 00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:30,720 Speaker 2: actually had microcassettes. You know that they could at least 551 00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:33,960 Speaker 2: have a smaller device on there, but I don't think 552 00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:37,320 Speaker 2: they had anything more sophisticated than that. In the mid seventies. 553 00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:40,280 Speaker 1: Well, Ron must be petrified. Also, they put a wire 554 00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:42,440 Speaker 1: on him and he has to drive to this payphone 555 00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:47,000 Speaker 1: in kids Grove as instructed and according to the Stoke 556 00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:50,320 Speaker 1: on Trent Live news website, this is sixty miles away. 557 00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:54,600 Speaker 1: Police discreetly, I mean discreetly. I have no idea if 558 00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:57,040 Speaker 1: they're really doing that. They discreetly follow him as he 559 00:31:57,080 --> 00:32:01,280 Speaker 1: goes along and Ron gets lost. He doesn't get there 560 00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:05,240 Speaker 1: until three am, and then it takes him another half 561 00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:08,840 Speaker 1: an hour to find the instructions behind this you know, 562 00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:13,400 Speaker 1: phones backboard. When he finds him, he's directed to another location. 563 00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:18,320 Speaker 1: It's a really pretty spot in Bathpool Park and the 564 00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:23,000 Speaker 1: kidnapper leaves this message for Ron. So he finds this message. 565 00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:26,200 Speaker 1: Go to the top of the lane and turn into 566 00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:31,000 Speaker 1: no entry, so I'm assuming the lane that says no intrigue. 567 00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:35,120 Speaker 1: Go to the wall and flashlights. Look for torch. Run 568 00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:40,080 Speaker 1: to torch. Further instructions on torch is a flashlight in 569 00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:43,160 Speaker 1: the UK. Ron is totally confused by this and I'll 570 00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:46,080 Speaker 1: just stop here. He does not know and it's not 571 00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:48,960 Speaker 1: just you. Ron is also confused by this message. 572 00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:52,959 Speaker 2: Yeah I'm not sure. So Ron is to drive basically 573 00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:56,480 Speaker 2: down this what we would say here in the United States, 574 00:32:56,560 --> 00:33:00,880 Speaker 2: you know, wrong way road, and then come to a 575 00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:06,160 Speaker 2: dead end and flash his headlights. If flashlights would be 576 00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:10,440 Speaker 2: signaling him back by being turned on and off, I mean, 577 00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:12,880 Speaker 2: that's kind of what I gathered, but then there would 578 00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:16,400 Speaker 2: be further instructions after those flashlights. 579 00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:19,920 Speaker 1: That's what Ron thinks. But nothing happens when he does 580 00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:22,400 Speaker 1: exactly what she just said. He doesn't see one. He's 581 00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:26,520 Speaker 1: very frustrated, and after about an hour of flashing his 582 00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:29,800 Speaker 1: lights and waiting for a signal, which I mean, I 583 00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:32,880 Speaker 1: know he's in a more isolated area, but flashing your 584 00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:34,440 Speaker 1: lights at three in the morning is going to get 585 00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:38,760 Speaker 1: somebody's attention. No response. He says that he gets out 586 00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:40,479 Speaker 1: of the car. The police watch him do this, and 587 00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:44,280 Speaker 1: he screams, this is Ron Whittle. Is anybody there? And 588 00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:48,960 Speaker 1: nobody responds smartly, He eventually leaves without dropping the ransom 589 00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:53,760 Speaker 1: money or obviously finding Leslie. So this has become a mess, 590 00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:58,000 Speaker 1: what the police involved and this kidnapper, These kidnappers who 591 00:33:58,040 --> 00:33:59,960 Speaker 1: don't know what they're doing obviously, I mean, they're making 592 00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:01,920 Speaker 1: it difficult for him to find the message in the 593 00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:04,440 Speaker 1: phone booth to begin with, and then they leave behind 594 00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:07,480 Speaker 1: a confusing message. It's like cloak and Dagger, but sort 595 00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:09,320 Speaker 1: of the stupid version. I guess. 596 00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:11,880 Speaker 2: Well, that's kind of what I'm debating in my head 597 00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:18,520 Speaker 2: is you know, how incompetent are these kidnappers? You know, 598 00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:22,200 Speaker 2: on one hand, you know, the way that they are 599 00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:25,960 Speaker 2: having Ron take these steps obviously is they're not getting 600 00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:28,640 Speaker 2: what they're after. The money isn't showing up because they're 601 00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:31,480 Speaker 2: making it too hard, and Ron getting lost on the 602 00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:35,239 Speaker 2: way to you know that one location with the telephone booth. Well, 603 00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:38,720 Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, you know, you think about before Google 604 00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:40,720 Speaker 2: Maps and if he had just as a paper map, 605 00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:42,640 Speaker 2: and you know the types of roads that are out 606 00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:45,239 Speaker 2: there in England. You know, I think it would be 607 00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:49,320 Speaker 2: expected that he would struggle to find the right location. However, 608 00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:54,520 Speaker 2: you know, something that I'm chewing on is this this 609 00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:57,839 Speaker 2: kind of this wrong way road that they have Ron 610 00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:03,760 Speaker 2: turned down. Was this a counter surveillance move that they're doing? 611 00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:07,600 Speaker 2: You know? Was the configuration of where Ron had to 612 00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:11,080 Speaker 2: drive to get to that road and then go onto 613 00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:14,920 Speaker 2: that road such that if there had been you know, 614 00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:20,040 Speaker 2: law enforcement somewhat tailing him from Afar, that it would 615 00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:23,879 Speaker 2: kind of expose that that tale was present, that there 616 00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:27,719 Speaker 2: was some active surveillance of Ron occurring by law enforcement, 617 00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:30,080 Speaker 2: you know. So that would tend to suggest that the 618 00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:33,759 Speaker 2: offenders are are thinking, Okay, hold on, we got we 619 00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:37,920 Speaker 2: got some issues with this whole kidnapping and the ransom demands. 620 00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:43,120 Speaker 2: What is going on with the family, Let's do something 621 00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:47,160 Speaker 2: to see if we can expose is law enforcement involved 622 00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:47,480 Speaker 2: or not? 623 00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:50,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, and this is turned into a nightmare. I feel 624 00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:53,920 Speaker 1: like the police are making questionable decisions. Let me tell 625 00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:55,480 Speaker 1: you what they do next, and you tell me what 626 00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:59,320 Speaker 1: you think. So they feel like this place, Bathpool Park, 627 00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:02,480 Speaker 1: where they were directed, is a hotspot. They feel like 628 00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:05,319 Speaker 1: Leslie could be here or there is a big clue here. 629 00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:08,640 Speaker 1: They were drawn here and the police have a discussion 630 00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:11,920 Speaker 1: with the family, and the police decide they're going to 631 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:16,600 Speaker 1: do a discrete sweep of Bathpool Park the next morning. 632 00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:19,880 Speaker 1: So this is probably four hours, seven maybe five hours 633 00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:23,880 Speaker 1: after the family goes home. They don't find anything useful. 634 00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:26,600 Speaker 1: So when we say discrete, we mean they are not 635 00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:29,279 Speaker 1: doing a full on search, you know, for this young 636 00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:32,919 Speaker 1: woman in the park. They are concerned that a big, 637 00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:36,880 Speaker 1: high profile operation like that would make the kidnapper aware 638 00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:39,839 Speaker 1: of their involvement. On the other hand, if she's there 639 00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:43,839 Speaker 1: and alive, wouldn't a full scale search maybe find her. 640 00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:46,840 Speaker 2: We would discover her, you know, I think, you know, 641 00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:51,680 Speaker 2: if it is a full scale search, the concern would 642 00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:55,600 Speaker 2: be they don't know where she's at. They make their 643 00:36:55,600 --> 00:37:00,879 Speaker 2: presence obvious. Now the offenders have the advantage going up 644 00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:04,640 Speaker 2: law enforcements here, and now you know, Leslie could be 645 00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:07,480 Speaker 2: killed and the offenders you know, run off. So I 646 00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:14,719 Speaker 2: can understand where using a more discrete option might be preferable, 647 00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:20,120 Speaker 2: though obviously you can't be as thorough in any location. 648 00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:23,400 Speaker 2: I just kind of question when they say discrete, you know, 649 00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:26,600 Speaker 2: I is this you know, where they just have a 650 00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:29,960 Speaker 2: few people that are milling about and kind of you know, 651 00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:35,120 Speaker 2: knocking on some doors. Are we talking about full blown 652 00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:38,440 Speaker 2: spy versus spy where now you have what appears to 653 00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:41,719 Speaker 2: be utility work going on with men in uniforms, and 654 00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:44,800 Speaker 2: they're having to notify all the neighbors, Hey, we're about 655 00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:48,240 Speaker 2: to shut down your electrical or your phone lines, whatever else. 656 00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:53,200 Speaker 2: And now they can actually be much more aggressive in 657 00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:57,239 Speaker 2: terms of thoroughness by contacting all these places because they're 658 00:37:57,320 --> 00:38:00,640 Speaker 2: using a full blown ruse that might throw off the 659 00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:03,600 Speaker 2: offenders from suspecting this is a law enforcement operation. 660 00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:08,399 Speaker 1: Let's go with option number one, okay, which is men 661 00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:11,920 Speaker 1: in playing clothes, probably with sticks, poking around at bushes. 662 00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:14,040 Speaker 1: I do not think that is the kind of operation 663 00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:19,279 Speaker 1: that this police force is unfortunately operating under, because you know, 664 00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:21,640 Speaker 1: they are trying to be discreete they're scared. They don't 665 00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:24,239 Speaker 1: know what they're doing. I don't know why. You know, 666 00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:28,000 Speaker 1: Scotland Yard or someone bigger is not involved. But let's 667 00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:32,640 Speaker 1: keep going. So Dorothy and Ron are really really, of 668 00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:35,279 Speaker 1: course upset, and they're getting desperate, so they turn to 669 00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:40,920 Speaker 1: the media, hoping to issue a plea to the kidnappers directly. Unfortunately, 670 00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:44,000 Speaker 1: what happens is, you know, they say, of course we've 671 00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:46,560 Speaker 1: got you know, we've got ransom money here for you. 672 00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:50,920 Speaker 1: What ends up happening is scammers and hoaxers and they 673 00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:53,440 Speaker 1: are derailed because of this situation. And I know you're 674 00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:55,879 Speaker 1: nodding your head. And that is the risk with going 675 00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:57,360 Speaker 1: to the media sometimes, isn't it. 676 00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:00,640 Speaker 2: No, Yeah, you know, And now this is where the 677 00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:05,600 Speaker 2: general population nut jobs who want to have some notoriety 678 00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:10,320 Speaker 2: because they inserted themselves into the investigation just can cause 679 00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:12,920 Speaker 2: this case to go off the complete rails, you know. 680 00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:15,920 Speaker 2: You know, the complexity in this case, of course, is 681 00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:20,200 Speaker 2: early on the media got a hold of this, and now, 682 00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:23,560 Speaker 2: you know, law enforcement is trying to work behind the 683 00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:26,839 Speaker 2: scenes without alerting the media of what their operations are 684 00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:31,319 Speaker 2: and work with the family, and then family gets frustrated 685 00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:34,799 Speaker 2: with however, how these things are turning out, and now 686 00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:37,920 Speaker 2: it's just like, okay, you know, poor Leslie. At this point, 687 00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:40,239 Speaker 2: I think the killers, you know, this is where they 688 00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:43,319 Speaker 2: should be cutting bait and running. You know, they just 689 00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:47,319 Speaker 2: either leave Leslie or probably kill her to eliminate her 690 00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:49,960 Speaker 2: as a witness and get the hell out of Dodge. 691 00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:54,520 Speaker 1: Basically, well, that's not what happens with these guys. So 692 00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:57,720 Speaker 1: let's move forward. We're going to go back to Gerald Smith, 693 00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:00,960 Speaker 1: poor Gerald who was shot. So no idea why this 694 00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:03,120 Speaker 1: is happening, I guess you know, they have not made 695 00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:07,160 Speaker 1: this connection yet between the man who shot Gerald Smith 696 00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:11,319 Speaker 1: the guard at the railroad yard. They have not made 697 00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:14,760 Speaker 1: that connection yet. They have not searched this stolen car 698 00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:18,319 Speaker 1: that had been abandoned. The man who shot Gerald had 699 00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:21,360 Speaker 1: a car there. They finally searched it eight days later, 700 00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:24,480 Speaker 1: and listened to what they found. There's a gun that 701 00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:27,600 Speaker 1: was used to shoot Gerald, There's a box of bullets, 702 00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:34,440 Speaker 1: a foam mattress, a flashlight, several unused Dimo labels, a 703 00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:39,880 Speaker 1: tape recorder with cassettes, and her parents confirmed Leslie's slippers. 704 00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:43,040 Speaker 1: So now they've made the connection eight days later, and 705 00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:46,640 Speaker 1: I have photos of the car and of the tape recorder. 706 00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:49,840 Speaker 2: Is this the same law enforcement jurisdiction handling both Leslie's 707 00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:51,880 Speaker 2: abduction as well as this shooting. 708 00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:53,479 Speaker 1: That's the impression I'm getting. 709 00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:58,560 Speaker 2: Yes, Okay, yeah, I'm surprised, you know, I mean, especially 710 00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:01,720 Speaker 2: in Britain, when you have a shooting of a security guard, 711 00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:04,480 Speaker 2: I would have thought that that would be a high 712 00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:09,759 Speaker 2: priority case. And they don't pursue the evidence, you know, 713 00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:14,880 Speaker 2: search the offender's car for eight days. It's like, Okay, 714 00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:19,319 Speaker 2: either they really drop the ball on that inexcusably, or 715 00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:22,400 Speaker 2: is so much law enforcement resources being tied up with 716 00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:26,160 Speaker 2: Leslie's abduction that they don't have the manpower to do 717 00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:29,759 Speaker 2: some of what should be timely and routine tasks in 718 00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:32,160 Speaker 2: the investigation of the security guard shooting. 719 00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:34,799 Speaker 1: And keep in mind, this is not London, I mean, 720 00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:37,760 Speaker 1: and this is not a major city. This is a 721 00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:41,719 Speaker 1: series of small towns with I don't know how experienced 722 00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:45,480 Speaker 1: these folks are. I'm not reading the description Scotland yard 723 00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:49,279 Speaker 1: anywhere on this document, so you know this is not 724 00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:52,239 Speaker 1: as sophisticated I think as we think it could be, 725 00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:53,560 Speaker 1: or we wish it could be. 726 00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:57,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's my guess. And I mean both types 727 00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:00,000 Speaker 2: of cases, the abduction of a seventeen year old girl 728 00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:03,960 Speaker 2: and a shooting, particularly a shooting in Britain, these are 729 00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:07,440 Speaker 2: cases that would be probably once in a career for 730 00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:13,839 Speaker 2: most of these investigators for this small department, So you know, 731 00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:16,520 Speaker 2: they may be just kind of fumbling around because they've 732 00:42:16,520 --> 00:42:20,439 Speaker 2: never experienced anything any one of these cases at a time, 733 00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:24,279 Speaker 2: let alone both of these types of cases. Kind of concurrently. 734 00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:27,360 Speaker 1: Let me show you the car. It's kind of a 735 00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:30,400 Speaker 1: cool little car. So there's the kidnappers car. It's stolen. 736 00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:32,160 Speaker 1: You know, he left it there, He shot the guard 737 00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:33,759 Speaker 1: and left it there. We don't know why he was 738 00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:36,839 Speaker 1: at this railway yard to begin with. We don't know. 739 00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:39,680 Speaker 2: Okay, well I'm you know right now, I'm just seeing 740 00:42:39,680 --> 00:42:42,759 Speaker 2: a picture of a looks like an old style four 741 00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:46,279 Speaker 2: doors at Anne that has the brand Morris on the 742 00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:49,799 Speaker 2: front grill. I just see the headlights, the bumper, the windshield, 743 00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:53,480 Speaker 2: The windows are rolled up. I was half expecting to 744 00:42:53,640 --> 00:42:57,680 Speaker 2: see some damage from bullets passing out of the vehicle 745 00:42:57,760 --> 00:43:01,320 Speaker 2: at the security guard. So maybe you know, a window 746 00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:04,200 Speaker 2: was down or the door was open. I don't know, 747 00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:06,560 Speaker 2: you know, but this is just its nondescript to me. 748 00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:09,440 Speaker 2: It just looks like a car that's just sitting, you know, 749 00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:10,360 Speaker 2: in a parking lot. 750 00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:14,359 Speaker 1: Yeah. So here down here is the tape recorder. You'll 751 00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:16,240 Speaker 1: probably recognize this type of tape recorder. 752 00:43:17,239 --> 00:43:20,799 Speaker 2: I had one pretty close to that, you know, when 753 00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:21,480 Speaker 2: I was younger. 754 00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:25,160 Speaker 1: This does date you, yes, So this is. 755 00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:30,720 Speaker 2: A photograph of a standard cassette player from from back 756 00:43:30,719 --> 00:43:32,600 Speaker 2: in the day. Yeah. I can't tell if there's a 757 00:43:32,600 --> 00:43:35,919 Speaker 2: cassette in there. Maybe there is a cassette. Yeah, in fact, 758 00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:38,440 Speaker 2: I think there is a cassette in that photograph, but 759 00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:42,640 Speaker 2: I'm not entirely sure, you know. So, this obviously would 760 00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:46,560 Speaker 2: be how they could record Leslie's voice to say that 761 00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:50,319 Speaker 2: message and then replay it several times during the phone call. Yep, 762 00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:55,080 Speaker 2: obviously they found, you know, evidence that's tying this car 763 00:43:56,040 --> 00:43:59,680 Speaker 2: to the abduction. But I mean in terms of the 764 00:43:59,719 --> 00:44:03,360 Speaker 2: evidents to identify the offender who's involved in the shooting, 765 00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:06,479 Speaker 2: you know, from Layton print processing on and inside the car, 766 00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:10,399 Speaker 2: Layton print processing on that cassette recorder. You know, there's 767 00:44:11,360 --> 00:44:15,120 Speaker 2: scores of evidence, you know that could be pursued, you know, 768 00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:19,759 Speaker 2: using the technologies of the mid nineteen seventies. And is 769 00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:24,360 Speaker 2: this car even registered to the person that's that abducted 770 00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:26,840 Speaker 2: Leslie or is it a stolen vehicle? 771 00:44:27,239 --> 00:44:29,799 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, this is really it gets so convoluted. 772 00:44:29,880 --> 00:44:32,239 Speaker 1: Now you know why this is a double episode. I 773 00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:35,640 Speaker 1: have a confusing thing piece of evidence here. Remember I 774 00:44:35,719 --> 00:44:38,040 Speaker 1: told you there are cassettes in this car, So they 775 00:44:38,280 --> 00:44:41,280 Speaker 1: did not discover anything inside this car until eight days 776 00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:44,960 Speaker 1: after Gerald was shot. They find the cassettes in the car. 777 00:44:45,520 --> 00:44:49,320 Speaker 1: The cassettes play more messages in Leslie's voice, which instruct 778 00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:52,320 Speaker 1: the family to head to a specific payphone in another 779 00:44:52,360 --> 00:44:56,920 Speaker 1: English town. One says this, please, Mum, go onto the 780 00:44:57,080 --> 00:45:00,880 Speaker 1: M six north to junction ten and onto the A 781 00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:06,120 Speaker 1: five four five towards Walsall instructions are taped under the 782 00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:09,120 Speaker 1: shelf of a telephone box. There's no need to worry, Mom, 783 00:45:09,160 --> 00:45:12,560 Speaker 1: I'm okay. I got a bit wet, but I'm quite 784 00:45:12,719 --> 00:45:16,759 Speaker 1: dry now. I'm being treated very well. Okay. So one, 785 00:45:16,840 --> 00:45:21,040 Speaker 1: I need your reaction to the reassurance he's obviously trying 786 00:45:21,080 --> 00:45:23,719 Speaker 1: to make her say to her mother. But number two, 787 00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:26,880 Speaker 1: I'm not quite sure what the point of these cassettes 788 00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:29,359 Speaker 1: are because they're laying. I know they were recorded, they're 789 00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:32,920 Speaker 1: laying in this car. They haven't been delivered. These are 790 00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:35,440 Speaker 1: undelivered instructions essentially. 791 00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:39,520 Speaker 2: Well, it sounds like the offenders had several different plans 792 00:45:39,560 --> 00:45:42,759 Speaker 2: depending on the circumstances that they were going to be 793 00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:47,120 Speaker 2: confronted with as the days went on. So they had 794 00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:52,760 Speaker 2: Leslie pre record Plan A, Plan B, Plan C, whatever 795 00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:57,759 Speaker 2: it was, and then implemented one of those plans with 796 00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:02,640 Speaker 2: the actual phone call with Leslie's voice telling Dorothy, this 797 00:46:02,680 --> 00:46:05,560 Speaker 2: is what I want you to do now right now. 798 00:46:05,560 --> 00:46:08,120 Speaker 2: Of course, we don't know why they chose that particular 799 00:46:08,280 --> 00:46:12,080 Speaker 2: plan over the others, but this gives me a little 800 00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:15,640 Speaker 2: bit of concern, you know, I know Leslie's voice is 801 00:46:15,640 --> 00:46:18,160 Speaker 2: saying that she's being treated well. That only she got 802 00:46:18,200 --> 00:46:21,520 Speaker 2: a little bit wet, which I'm assuming is during the abduction. 803 00:46:21,600 --> 00:46:24,440 Speaker 2: Maybe it was raining that night or something. No, it 804 00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:28,759 Speaker 2: was winter, Okay, yeah, January. But to record these plans, 805 00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:31,280 Speaker 2: all these plans ahead of time and right now, maybe 806 00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:34,680 Speaker 2: I'm exaggerating in terms of the number of plans that 807 00:46:34,680 --> 00:46:40,040 Speaker 2: they recorded, But are they capturing Leslie's voice because their 808 00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:42,799 Speaker 2: plan was that she was going to be dead very 809 00:46:42,840 --> 00:46:46,560 Speaker 2: shortly afterwards. You know, That's where I'm getting a little 810 00:46:46,600 --> 00:46:48,080 Speaker 2: bit concerned about that. 811 00:46:48,719 --> 00:46:52,080 Speaker 1: Well, there's even more to be concerned about. So there 812 00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:56,320 Speaker 1: are some fingerprints that they are able to match from 813 00:46:56,800 --> 00:47:01,040 Speaker 1: Jerald's crime scene where he has been shot, to a 814 00:47:01,080 --> 00:47:06,200 Speaker 1: series of violent robberies that include murders starting in nineteen 815 00:47:06,280 --> 00:47:10,200 Speaker 1: seventy four. These are all postal workers. These are all 816 00:47:10,280 --> 00:47:13,560 Speaker 1: murders that were connected, like I said, through fingerprints and 817 00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:19,160 Speaker 1: some ballistics. They said, so the last postal worker who 818 00:47:19,239 --> 00:47:22,359 Speaker 1: was murdered, robbed and murdered was killed in November of 819 00:47:22,440 --> 00:47:27,600 Speaker 1: seventy four, and that's just two months before Leslie was kidnapped. 820 00:47:27,960 --> 00:47:31,000 Speaker 1: So these are really, I mean, it sounds like just 821 00:47:31,040 --> 00:47:35,640 Speaker 1: like awful violent robberies. And because these have all been 822 00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:39,960 Speaker 1: nearly identical and there are at different locations across the country, 823 00:47:40,160 --> 00:47:43,120 Speaker 1: the investigators believe the perpetrator is the same man they're 824 00:47:43,160 --> 00:47:45,399 Speaker 1: just they all feel the same, and of course now 825 00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:49,440 Speaker 1: they have these fingerprints. He's eventually dubbed the Black Panther 826 00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:52,680 Speaker 1: by the press because of his knack for wearing all black, 827 00:47:52,880 --> 00:47:56,040 Speaker 1: including a you know, like a head covering that covers 828 00:47:56,160 --> 00:47:58,960 Speaker 1: you know, his entire head except from two eye holes, 829 00:47:59,080 --> 00:48:02,840 Speaker 1: and witnesses he says he moves very swiftly during the robberies. 830 00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:06,560 Speaker 1: You know, the press loves a good moniker. So the 831 00:48:06,600 --> 00:48:10,720 Speaker 1: bottom line is now the main suspect here, who's connected 832 00:48:10,760 --> 00:48:13,919 Speaker 1: to the car, who's connected to Gerald, who is still 833 00:48:13,920 --> 00:48:19,000 Speaker 1: in critical condition but awake, connected to the kidnapping of Leslie. 834 00:48:19,040 --> 00:48:21,560 Speaker 1: All of these surround this one man that they've dubbed 835 00:48:21,640 --> 00:48:22,680 Speaker 1: the Black Panther. 836 00:48:23,200 --> 00:48:27,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, so they're finding Layton's from these various robbery scenes 837 00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:33,920 Speaker 2: and homicide scenes of postal workers that they are able 838 00:48:33,960 --> 00:48:37,520 Speaker 2: to interconnect. They don't know who this man is, this 839 00:48:37,640 --> 00:48:42,320 Speaker 2: black Panther man. And then now with the security guard shooting, 840 00:48:42,440 --> 00:48:45,920 Speaker 2: they get latens I'm assuming either from the car or 841 00:48:45,960 --> 00:48:48,759 Speaker 2: from objects that they collect out of the car that 842 00:48:48,920 --> 00:48:52,400 Speaker 2: have that they're able to connect to these prior robberies 843 00:48:52,480 --> 00:48:56,280 Speaker 2: and homicides of the postal workers. So now black Panther 844 00:48:56,480 --> 00:48:59,640 Speaker 2: is suspect number one. They just don't know who black 845 00:48:59,680 --> 00:49:04,080 Speaker 2: panther there is. When you think about these robberies, you know, 846 00:49:04,440 --> 00:49:08,359 Speaker 2: robbery is typically a financially motivated crime, you know, And 847 00:49:08,400 --> 00:49:11,920 Speaker 2: why go after postal workers? Are you going after you know, 848 00:49:12,040 --> 00:49:15,080 Speaker 2: paychecks that are in the mail? Are you going after 849 00:49:15,320 --> 00:49:19,480 Speaker 2: other items of value that these postal workers would have 850 00:49:19,640 --> 00:49:21,440 Speaker 2: had in on their routes? 851 00:49:21,760 --> 00:49:22,000 Speaker 1: You know? 852 00:49:22,120 --> 00:49:25,000 Speaker 2: But typically it's a financially motivated crime, and of course 853 00:49:25,040 --> 00:49:28,759 Speaker 2: this kidnapping if Leslie, is a financially motivated crime, even 854 00:49:28,800 --> 00:49:32,040 Speaker 2: though it's a it's a very different type of financially 855 00:49:32,040 --> 00:49:35,799 Speaker 2: motivated crime, but the fundamental motive is there, you know. 856 00:49:35,880 --> 00:49:38,880 Speaker 2: And now you have you have fingerprints that are are 857 00:49:38,920 --> 00:49:39,960 Speaker 2: matching everything up. 858 00:49:40,239 --> 00:49:40,479 Speaker 1: Yep. 859 00:49:40,719 --> 00:49:42,840 Speaker 2: It's just who is it? Who is this black panther? 860 00:49:43,480 --> 00:49:45,840 Speaker 1: That's what we're going to have to find out next week, Paul, 861 00:49:46,239 --> 00:49:49,080 Speaker 1: Who is it? And where is Leslie? Where is she? 862 00:49:49,280 --> 00:49:52,960 Speaker 1: What happened? Does he ever make a connection with the family. Again, 863 00:49:53,200 --> 00:49:57,359 Speaker 1: Ron and Dorothy are just beside themselves. The police are 864 00:49:57,400 --> 00:50:00,560 Speaker 1: not doing a great job. It sounds like I things 865 00:50:00,640 --> 00:50:02,440 Speaker 1: are going to get better, but we're going to have 866 00:50:02,480 --> 00:50:03,520 Speaker 1: to find out next week. 867 00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:06,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, things are not looking good for Leslie because you 868 00:50:06,640 --> 00:50:09,080 Speaker 2: have the black panther who is willing to kill prior 869 00:50:10,160 --> 00:50:14,280 Speaker 2: is he willing to kill her? So I will wait 870 00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:16,800 Speaker 2: and hear the rest of the story. 871 00:50:17,400 --> 00:50:19,240 Speaker 1: Okay, I'll be back with you in a week. 872 00:50:19,800 --> 00:50:20,759 Speaker 2: Sounds good. 873 00:50:24,520 --> 00:50:27,840 Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production for our sources 874 00:50:27,840 --> 00:50:31,400 Speaker 1: and show notes go to exactlyrightmedia dot com slash Buried 875 00:50:31,400 --> 00:50:35,000 Speaker 1: Bones sources. Our senior producer is Alexis Emosi. 876 00:50:35,320 --> 00:50:39,520 Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin, and Kate Winkler Dawson. 877 00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:42,080 Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday. 878 00:50:42,360 --> 00:50:44,640 Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel. 879 00:50:44,920 --> 00:50:46,920 Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac. 880 00:50:47,200 --> 00:50:51,360 Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark, and Danielle Kramer. 881 00:50:51,600 --> 00:50:55,000 Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at 882 00:50:55,080 --> 00:50:56,240 Speaker 1: Barry Bones Pod. 883 00:50:56,680 --> 00:50:59,240 Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded 884 00:50:59,239 --> 00:51:01,960 Speaker 2: Age story of and the race to decote the criminal mind, 885 00:51:02,120 --> 00:51:03,040 Speaker 2: is available now 886 00:51:03,400 --> 00:51:07,680 Speaker 1: And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life Solving America's 887 00:51:07,680 --> 00:51:09,719 Speaker 1: Cold Cases is also available now