WEBVTT - As Bad As a Lie 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:05.200 Family Secrets is a production of iHeartRadio. This episode contains 0:00:05.240 --> 0:00:09.719 discussion of sexual assault and drug abuse. Listener discretion is advised. 0:00:20.720 --> 0:00:23.200 Trying to follow a specific memory to any kind of 0:00:23.239 --> 0:00:27.240 conclusion is like driving toward a semi blinded by its headlights, 0:00:27.760 --> 0:00:31.960 compelled by survival instincts to swerve away. No amount of 0:00:32.000 --> 0:00:34.239 holding the steering wheel and place can keep you on 0:00:34.280 --> 0:00:34.640 the road. 0:00:35.159 --> 0:00:35.919 If part of you. 0:00:36.040 --> 0:00:40.000 However small, wants to survive. Thankfully, there's a lot of 0:00:40.040 --> 0:00:41.080 me that wants to survive. 0:00:44.280 --> 0:00:47.680 That's Brittany Means, writer and editor, an author of the 0:00:47.720 --> 0:00:52.000 recent memoir Hell If We Don't Change Our Ways. Britney's 0:00:52.120 --> 0:00:56.840 is a story of extraordinary resilience and ultimately the triumph 0:00:56.920 --> 0:01:01.960 of an indomitable spirit trapped an impossible circumstances. It's an 0:01:02.000 --> 0:01:04.800 object lesson in the idea that as long as we're 0:01:04.840 --> 0:01:23.040 alive and breathing, anything is possible. I'm Danny Shapiro, and 0:01:23.080 --> 0:01:26.240 this is family Secrets, the secrets that are kept from us, 0:01:26.480 --> 0:01:29.280 the secrets we keep from others, and the secrets we 0:01:29.360 --> 0:01:37.720 keep from ourselves. The place that I always begin, and 0:01:38.000 --> 0:01:43.240 in your case, it's particularly complicated and rich. I think 0:01:43.280 --> 0:01:46.040 to talk about is. Tell me about the landscape of 0:01:46.080 --> 0:01:49.440 your childhood and that could mean anything to you. Your 0:01:49.520 --> 0:01:50.960 childhood had a lot of landscapes. 0:01:51.800 --> 0:01:58.040 Yeah, well landscape I think of Cornfield literally. But for 0:01:58.080 --> 0:02:01.320 the most part, it was me and my mom. We 0:02:01.360 --> 0:02:04.720 lived in a car a lot of the time. We 0:02:04.720 --> 0:02:08.400 were always on the move, and we stayed if we 0:02:08.400 --> 0:02:12.799 weren't in the car, we were in shelters or with 0:02:12.880 --> 0:02:16.560 friends or with family. You know. We stayed all sorts 0:02:16.560 --> 0:02:20.640 of different places, like a biker community, we stayed on 0:02:20.680 --> 0:02:26.120 an ostrich farm, we stayed with distant family. In Mississippi, 0:02:26.360 --> 0:02:30.160 there's always something new and people. 0:02:29.840 --> 0:02:30.480 Who were new. 0:02:31.120 --> 0:02:33.240 Did it feel like an adventure or what was that 0:02:33.360 --> 0:02:33.720 like for you? 0:02:34.240 --> 0:02:36.959 It didn't feel strange to me that we were moving 0:02:37.000 --> 0:02:41.120 so much because that was what I knew. So I 0:02:41.120 --> 0:02:44.840 didn't really think to ask like when are we stopping 0:02:45.000 --> 0:02:48.280 or where are we going to stay? Because to me, 0:02:48.560 --> 0:02:50.800 like being in the car and always being somewhere new, 0:02:50.840 --> 0:02:53.880 it was just how things were, and the most important 0:02:53.880 --> 0:02:56.160 thing to me was just that I was with my mom, 0:02:56.280 --> 0:02:59.120 So I didn't I didn't really care too much about 0:02:59.160 --> 0:03:02.200 the instability because it didn't feel strange and she was there, 0:03:03.080 --> 0:03:06.040 My mom had me when she was nineteen, so she 0:03:06.200 --> 0:03:10.480 was fairly young when she started parenthood. And my conception 0:03:10.720 --> 0:03:14.359 was the result of a sexual assault. I think she 0:03:14.480 --> 0:03:19.359 was just a very traumatized person from her upbringing and 0:03:19.440 --> 0:03:22.280 from what had happened, and from being a single mother 0:03:22.360 --> 0:03:26.160 and then being in an abusive relationship. And I'm aware 0:03:26.200 --> 0:03:29.760 of all of those things now because I have a perspective. 0:03:29.800 --> 0:03:32.720 But when I was a kid, she was like the 0:03:32.760 --> 0:03:35.520 sun to me, and I loved her more than anything. 0:03:36.120 --> 0:03:40.640 She was like the source of all warmth and happiness 0:03:40.640 --> 0:03:45.960 and affirmation. You know. She could be very energetic and 0:03:46.080 --> 0:03:50.320 verbally loving, and we would like go on trips and 0:03:50.760 --> 0:03:53.720 go play laser tag and put putt and all these 0:03:53.720 --> 0:03:56.960 fun things. And then the next day, or maybe even 0:03:57.040 --> 0:04:01.440 later that same day, she would be like very emotionally 0:04:01.760 --> 0:04:05.040 just regulated. She would sleep for days, she would scream, 0:04:05.760 --> 0:04:09.440 she would have outbursts. So yeah, just in another way, 0:04:09.520 --> 0:04:10.600 not a lot of stability. 0:04:11.800 --> 0:04:16.200 How old were you when you knew that you were 0:04:16.640 --> 0:04:18.719 the result of your mother having been raped? 0:04:19.360 --> 0:04:22.880 I honestly don't really remember a time when I didn't 0:04:22.920 --> 0:04:25.799 know that. I wish I could remember the exact moment 0:04:25.839 --> 0:04:27.839 and how I felt about it, but it feels like 0:04:27.920 --> 0:04:31.880 something I just always knew. When I picture her, the 0:04:31.960 --> 0:04:34.279 first image is you know how I saw her When 0:04:34.320 --> 0:04:38.320 I was a kid. She had like brownish reddish, like 0:04:38.400 --> 0:04:41.760 rusty brown hair, and it was always a little frizzy, 0:04:42.000 --> 0:04:46.240 which is where I got it blue eyes. When I 0:04:46.279 --> 0:04:48.680 was a kid, she had like a gap between her 0:04:48.680 --> 0:04:51.840 two front teeth, and she ended up getting dentures later 0:04:51.880 --> 0:04:55.880 in life, and I remember my uncle actually crying because 0:04:55.960 --> 0:04:58.640 he was like, I loved the gap between her teeth. 0:04:58.640 --> 0:05:01.719 It gave her a personality like fit her very well, 0:05:02.160 --> 0:05:05.040 and she had a very pretty smile. She has like 0:05:05.160 --> 0:05:08.520 dimples and eyes that are really bright. 0:05:11.040 --> 0:05:13.279 One of the moves Brittany and her mom make is 0:05:13.279 --> 0:05:16.599 precipitated by Mark, her mom's ex boyfriend at the time, 0:05:17.240 --> 0:05:19.720 but now they're running away from him. They flee to 0:05:19.760 --> 0:05:23.839 Britney's grandparents' home just off Indiana State Road sixty seven. 0:05:24.480 --> 0:05:29.599 Britney's grandparents are Pentecostal, and life there is extremely different 0:05:29.800 --> 0:05:31.200 from the life Britney is used to. 0:05:33.080 --> 0:05:36.480 The main thing was the contrast. When we first got there, 0:05:37.000 --> 0:05:40.039 my mom and I used to love going to horror movies, 0:05:40.680 --> 0:05:44.520 we watched TV. We really loved like unsolved mysteries and 0:05:45.160 --> 0:05:48.960 watching like the Rose Red series. And then we also 0:05:49.040 --> 0:05:52.080 had no rules. We just kind of did whatever out 0:05:52.120 --> 0:05:55.080 on the road. And when we were with my grandparents, 0:05:55.480 --> 0:05:59.479 they were like, no TV because that's the sin. So 0:05:59.560 --> 0:06:03.640 suddenly this huge thing that we shared together was gone 0:06:03.800 --> 0:06:06.400 and I couldn't even really talk about it without. 0:06:06.120 --> 0:06:06.920 Getting a speech. 0:06:07.760 --> 0:06:10.760 And there were all these rules like about when we 0:06:10.800 --> 0:06:13.960 could come and go and the things that we could 0:06:13.960 --> 0:06:17.640 say and what we had to wear and cutting our hair. 0:06:18.279 --> 0:06:22.400 And it was really hard at first because I was 0:06:22.440 --> 0:06:27.599 so aware of the alternative to that, Like I knew 0:06:27.880 --> 0:06:32.000 there was a world out there with like beautiful, delicious television, 0:06:32.640 --> 0:06:35.840 and then there was this world where I only really 0:06:35.839 --> 0:06:37.839 got to listen to Bible stories. 0:06:38.520 --> 0:06:41.039 And the reason at that point that you were staying 0:06:41.080 --> 0:06:44.080 with your grandparents was because your mom had pretty much 0:06:44.120 --> 0:06:45.080 run out of gas. 0:06:45.720 --> 0:06:49.559 Yeah, we didn't have money, and my grandparents would send 0:06:49.600 --> 0:06:53.960 money sometimes, but I think it was the situation was 0:06:54.000 --> 0:06:55.920 that they were like, we're not sending any more money. 0:06:56.000 --> 0:06:58.440 You need to come here and figure things out, and 0:06:58.520 --> 0:07:02.839 so that's what we did. I think that was around 0:07:03.040 --> 0:07:07.320 like kindergarten age. I have a really hard time pinning 0:07:07.360 --> 0:07:12.280 down exact ages, just because we were moving so much, 0:07:12.640 --> 0:07:15.800 and we went back to some places a lot at 0:07:15.800 --> 0:07:19.720 different ages, and so sometimes if I'm comparing a story 0:07:19.720 --> 0:07:23.760 with someone, I'll talk about a memory and they'll be like, oh, yeah, 0:07:23.800 --> 0:07:25.680 you were like nine when that happened. And I'm so 0:07:25.840 --> 0:07:29.800 shocked because I remember being very little in the same place, 0:07:30.000 --> 0:07:34.400 and the memories that I think I remember happening at 0:07:34.400 --> 0:07:37.840 one age happened at another. But I'm pretty sure when 0:07:37.840 --> 0:07:40.560 we were living with my grandparents in the house by 0:07:40.560 --> 0:07:42.160 the highway, it was some time. 0:07:42.080 --> 0:07:43.320 Before I started school. 0:07:44.360 --> 0:07:50.960 My earliest memories of going to church include just feeling well, one, 0:07:51.080 --> 0:07:53.400 really aware of how my mom and I didn't fit in, 0:07:53.560 --> 0:07:56.800 because you know, all the women were in like very 0:07:56.840 --> 0:08:01.600 long jean skirts down to their ankles or like long dresses. 0:08:01.720 --> 0:08:05.640 They all had very long hair, either hanging down their 0:08:05.640 --> 0:08:09.240 back or piled up on their head, and the men 0:08:09.280 --> 0:08:13.960 were in suits, and everyone was very clean and buttoned 0:08:14.040 --> 0:08:16.920 up and smiling and calling each other brother and sister. 0:08:18.000 --> 0:08:23.200 And my mom was wearing blue jeans and like a 0:08:23.240 --> 0:08:26.080 T shirt and had makeup on, and her hair was 0:08:26.120 --> 0:08:28.680 cut pretty short, and I was wearing the dress and 0:08:28.720 --> 0:08:29.640 my grandma. 0:08:29.320 --> 0:08:32.199 Gave me, but I just felt really out of place. 0:08:32.400 --> 0:08:35.559 It felt like way too nice of a place for 0:08:35.679 --> 0:08:37.640 us to be dressed the way we were, and I 0:08:37.720 --> 0:08:41.320 was embarrassed, but I was also kind of irritated because 0:08:41.320 --> 0:08:43.800 I didn't want to be there and I didn't have 0:08:43.880 --> 0:08:46.120 this language then, but now I understand, like I just 0:08:46.200 --> 0:08:46.880 didn't want to be. 0:08:47.720 --> 0:08:52.839 Judged on terms that I didn't care about. And my grandma, I. 0:08:52.800 --> 0:08:56.040 Remember people asking her like is she adopted about me? 0:08:56.880 --> 0:09:00.720 And my grandma telling at least one of her friends like, no, 0:09:00.880 --> 0:09:03.880 she's a rape baby, and you know, people telling my 0:09:03.960 --> 0:09:05.720 mom like, I'm so glad you came back. 0:09:06.040 --> 0:09:08.240 But also I could see the way they. 0:09:08.120 --> 0:09:10.680 Were looking at her, and you know, her pants and 0:09:10.720 --> 0:09:13.400 her hair and the makeup, and yeah, it was it 0:09:13.440 --> 0:09:16.160 was just a lot to take in and try and 0:09:16.280 --> 0:09:18.920 understand at a young age. 0:09:19.240 --> 0:09:22.720 Yeah, do you have any memory of what it felt 0:09:22.760 --> 0:09:25.480 like to hear your grandmother describe you that way? 0:09:26.280 --> 0:09:29.800 I don't remember feeling any kind of emotion about it, 0:09:29.840 --> 0:09:33.679 because I already knew the circumstances, So to me, it 0:09:33.720 --> 0:09:34.960 was just a fact. 0:09:35.000 --> 0:09:36.160 I didn't really have. 0:09:36.040 --> 0:09:39.439 The concept that I should be insulted or embarrassed or 0:09:40.160 --> 0:09:43.920 anything like that. So when we first got there, I 0:09:43.960 --> 0:09:46.960 had this feeling like my mom and I were kind 0:09:46.960 --> 0:09:50.640 of in cahoots and that we were both like, yeah, 0:09:50.679 --> 0:09:53.559 this sucks, but we'll get through it. It didn't occur 0:09:53.640 --> 0:09:56.120 to me that everyone else there knew her as someone 0:09:56.120 --> 0:09:58.480 who used to be very involved in the church and 0:09:59.240 --> 0:10:03.360 seeing in the and very you know, like godly and innocent. 0:10:04.000 --> 0:10:06.040 I never met that version of her, so I didn't 0:10:06.080 --> 0:10:08.400 know that that was something she would go back to. 0:10:08.760 --> 0:10:10.439 And then she stood. 0:10:10.160 --> 0:10:14.760 Up to give testimony and basically said she wanted to 0:10:14.800 --> 0:10:17.280 come home, which to her meant like come back to 0:10:17.320 --> 0:10:20.600 the church and feel that community that used to make 0:10:20.640 --> 0:10:24.840 her feel safe and loved before so many things went wrong. 0:10:25.640 --> 0:10:28.080 I think she just wanted to get back to that 0:10:28.200 --> 0:10:32.280 and feel like all of the missteps that she had 0:10:32.320 --> 0:10:34.240 taken and all the things that had happened to her 0:10:34.320 --> 0:10:38.679 could be washed away. I imagine was an irresistible feeling. 0:10:39.240 --> 0:10:42.280 And to me it was a shock because I was like, 0:10:42.800 --> 0:10:44.880 what do you mean you're buying into this? I thought 0:10:44.920 --> 0:10:48.079 we were gonna leave, and yeah, I just felt really 0:10:48.120 --> 0:10:52.840 alone because I didn't have my partner in crime anymore, 0:10:53.360 --> 0:10:57.160 and I also like I didn't connect with this church setting. 0:10:57.160 --> 0:11:00.520 I didn't feel what it seemed like everyone else was feeling. 0:11:01.160 --> 0:11:03.320 So I also had a lot of guilt like why 0:11:03.320 --> 0:11:06.640 can't I go there with her? And again, just a 0:11:06.720 --> 0:11:09.760 lot to try and implement into my way of thinking 0:11:09.800 --> 0:11:12.560 as I was forming a sense of self well. 0:11:12.600 --> 0:11:15.840 And also the message that God sees everything and knows 0:11:15.840 --> 0:11:17.120 everything doesn't help. 0:11:16.960 --> 0:11:19.199 With the guilt, yeah, exactly. 0:11:22.320 --> 0:11:25.160 For a while, Brittany and her mother live with her grandparents. 0:11:25.679 --> 0:11:28.120 Her mom has been saved and is accepted back into 0:11:28.160 --> 0:11:31.600 the fold. It seems like life may continue to proceed 0:11:31.760 --> 0:11:36.120 this way, a new Pentecostal life. But Mark, the ex 0:11:36.200 --> 0:11:40.240 boyfriend they'd been running away from, he finds her. He 0:11:40.320 --> 0:11:43.080 shows up at the house on Indiana State Road sixty seven, 0:11:43.480 --> 0:11:44.920 and he takes her mother away. 0:11:47.160 --> 0:11:49.800 This is something I didn't actually know about for a 0:11:49.840 --> 0:11:53.439 long time. I learned when I was an adult and 0:11:53.480 --> 0:11:57.240 my mom told me this story. He had found us, 0:11:57.320 --> 0:12:00.120 and he showed up in the middle of the night 0:12:00.240 --> 0:12:03.600 and he had a gun and he threatened to shoot 0:12:03.600 --> 0:12:07.440 my mom if she didn't come with him. He basically 0:12:07.480 --> 0:12:10.240 forced her to come with him, and they didn't take me. 0:12:10.640 --> 0:12:13.440 I don't really know why, because I really wasn't aware 0:12:13.480 --> 0:12:15.800 that all of this was going on. I just knew 0:12:15.840 --> 0:12:19.000 that I woke up and my mom was gone, and 0:12:19.040 --> 0:12:21.280 I was alone in this place I didn't want to be, 0:12:21.400 --> 0:12:23.920 and didn't have the context for why any of that 0:12:23.960 --> 0:12:24.480 happened for. 0:12:24.440 --> 0:12:25.000 A long time. 0:12:25.679 --> 0:12:29.360 I mean, it strikes me that your mom probably was 0:12:29.360 --> 0:12:32.760 trying to be protective of you by not bringing you 0:12:32.800 --> 0:12:36.440 in a situation where she's basically being abducted. Yeah, but 0:12:36.720 --> 0:12:40.520 I imagine that to be a kid like so young 0:12:40.679 --> 0:12:43.320 and to just wake up and your mom's gone and 0:12:43.320 --> 0:12:46.960 you don't know why, and nobody's talking, nobody's really filling 0:12:47.000 --> 0:12:48.160 in the blanks for you. 0:12:48.880 --> 0:12:50.840 Yeah. 0:12:51.360 --> 0:12:53.960 Brittany is left with her grandparents for a few months 0:12:54.000 --> 0:12:57.040 before Mark and her mom come back for her. During 0:12:57.080 --> 0:13:00.320 these months, she and her grandparents move from the little 0:13:00.360 --> 0:13:02.559 house by the highway into a barn. 0:13:04.400 --> 0:13:08.439 So the barn was an old carriage house. There were 0:13:08.600 --> 0:13:12.600 horse stalls in it. It was an actual barn, had 0:13:13.080 --> 0:13:19.000 a black wood sighting and these two big silhouettes of 0:13:19.840 --> 0:13:23.800 rearing horses that were like bright white. So they stuck 0:13:23.840 --> 0:13:27.720 out against the barn and my grandpa converted it into 0:13:28.480 --> 0:13:31.679 He called it a mansion. It had thirteen bedrooms all together, 0:13:32.440 --> 0:13:35.160 and even put up a sign at the end of 0:13:35.200 --> 0:13:39.600 the driveway that was like, come see the thirteen bedroom mansion, 0:13:40.200 --> 0:13:43.080 and then people would show up and be super confused. 0:13:44.600 --> 0:13:47.600 It was like way out in the middle of the country, 0:13:48.559 --> 0:13:51.520 like surrounded by cornfields on one side and woods on 0:13:51.559 --> 0:13:51.920 the other. 0:13:52.120 --> 0:13:55.079 And then inside the barn itself. 0:13:55.000 --> 0:13:59.760 Like it had this really lush red carpet with all 0:13:59.840 --> 0:14:03.280 kinds of vines and flowers on it. There was like 0:14:03.360 --> 0:14:07.240 a giant chandelier when you came into the dining room 0:14:07.800 --> 0:14:11.120 in front of this huge window, and it had these 0:14:11.240 --> 0:14:12.480 octopus arms. 0:14:12.480 --> 0:14:13.839 That's how I always thought of it. 0:14:13.840 --> 0:14:17.079 It looked like a giant octopus like holding a bunch 0:14:17.080 --> 0:14:23.440 of little moons. And he put all kinds of furniture 0:14:23.600 --> 0:14:25.840 imported from I want to say. 0:14:25.680 --> 0:14:27.040 France, but yeah. 0:14:27.040 --> 0:14:31.280 It was like there was so much nice, expensive stuff 0:14:31.320 --> 0:14:35.720 in it. And then my grandpa really loved cutting corners, 0:14:35.760 --> 0:14:39.520 so then in between these really beautiful elements would be 0:14:40.000 --> 0:14:45.440 pretty cheap linoleum and Christmas trees from like big lots 0:14:45.680 --> 0:14:47.720 that were on sale or. 0:14:47.680 --> 0:14:49.400 Something, and missing arms. 0:14:50.040 --> 0:14:52.880 It was a bizarre place in part because of how 0:14:53.000 --> 0:14:56.320 beautiful and decadent, and the fact that it was converted 0:14:56.480 --> 0:14:59.840 from a barn, and also that my grandparents were hoarders. 0:15:00.120 --> 0:15:02.400 There was I mean, when we very first. 0:15:02.120 --> 0:15:06.400 Got there, I didn't really think that that was going 0:15:06.400 --> 0:15:09.520 on because everything was in boxes and it took forever 0:15:09.560 --> 0:15:13.280 to unpack. So I just assumed that that's what it 0:15:13.400 --> 0:15:16.640 was like when people moved. And then as I got older, 0:15:16.680 --> 0:15:21.320 stuff accrued and this long, beautiful hallway was just so 0:15:21.560 --> 0:15:24.320 full that you had to walk sideways to get through it. 0:15:25.160 --> 0:15:29.520 So your brother been three and a half years younger 0:15:29.680 --> 0:15:34.840 than you, Yeah, and was the product or relationship that 0:15:34.880 --> 0:15:39.120 your mom had with someone other than Mark? Was his 0:15:39.440 --> 0:15:42.480 father someone that you knew when your mother was with him? 0:15:42.600 --> 0:15:43.600 What was the background of that. 0:15:44.400 --> 0:15:47.760 It's basically my uncle's friend. 0:15:48.680 --> 0:15:51.480 So you was just hanging out with all of them 0:15:51.480 --> 0:15:54.480 all the time, and they were young, so they were 0:15:54.520 --> 0:15:58.640 like why not, and their condom broke and they got 0:15:58.680 --> 0:16:01.960 pregnant and the rest of Ben's history. 0:16:01.960 --> 0:16:05.040 Right, So it wasn't the result of a serious relationship. 0:16:05.280 --> 0:16:06.520 No, no, not at all. 0:16:11.600 --> 0:16:33.280 We'll be right back. Ben comes and goes during Brittany's childhood. 0:16:33.920 --> 0:16:36.480 He lives with his father some of the time and 0:16:36.640 --> 0:16:39.480 other times he spends with Brittany and her mother wherever 0:16:39.520 --> 0:16:43.240 they might be. Another on again, off again presence in 0:16:43.280 --> 0:16:48.040 Brittany's childhood is Mark. He and Britney's mom get back together, 0:16:48.480 --> 0:16:51.120 and Brittany even begins to think of him as her dad. 0:16:52.240 --> 0:16:55.280 But then their lives slide into a very dark place 0:16:55.760 --> 0:16:58.480 when Mark puts Brittany's mother to work as a stripper, 0:17:00.080 --> 0:17:03.480 and while Brittany's mom is out doing this, Mark begins 0:17:03.520 --> 0:17:08.040 to sexually abuse Brittany. In a grim parallel, Brittany and 0:17:08.080 --> 0:17:10.919 her mom are both doing things with their bodies that 0:17:10.960 --> 0:17:14.359 they don't want to be doing. It's a harrowing time, 0:17:14.880 --> 0:17:17.920 and at a certain point, someone reports the family to 0:17:18.040 --> 0:17:19.880 child protective Services. 0:17:21.119 --> 0:17:24.800 I believe it was a family friend, is what they 0:17:24.920 --> 0:17:27.000 guessed at the time, but I don't think we ever 0:17:27.040 --> 0:17:29.040 really got exact confirmation. 0:17:29.359 --> 0:17:30.680 You know, it could have been. 0:17:30.760 --> 0:17:33.920 Someone out of school, It could have been someone near 0:17:34.040 --> 0:17:36.560 one of the motels where we were staying. Really could 0:17:36.560 --> 0:17:38.840 have been anybody. 0:17:38.920 --> 0:17:41.600 So the thing that I was so struck by is 0:17:41.640 --> 0:17:46.960 that your mom and Mark essentially coach you in terms 0:17:47.040 --> 0:17:51.920 of what you should say to child protective services. So 0:17:52.000 --> 0:17:55.840 that certainly implies that your mom knew that there were 0:17:55.880 --> 0:17:58.680 things that you could say that would have you taken 0:17:58.720 --> 0:18:00.119 away from her. 0:18:00.760 --> 0:18:05.280 Yeah, Mark knew exactly what they were going to ask 0:18:05.680 --> 0:18:10.639 and anticipated how I could answer without sounding like I 0:18:10.680 --> 0:18:14.880 had been coached. And I remember going through that coaching 0:18:14.920 --> 0:18:17.280 and just being like, I don't. 0:18:17.160 --> 0:18:18.920 Want to do this. I'm bored. 0:18:19.320 --> 0:18:22.720 I want to watch TV because I you know, so 0:18:22.800 --> 0:18:26.879 many awful things had been normalized. I wasn't thinking like 0:18:27.520 --> 0:18:30.479 this is going to keep me from getting help. I 0:18:30.600 --> 0:18:33.440 was thinking like, I got to get the answers right 0:18:33.520 --> 0:18:36.040 so that we can stop doing this boring thing. 0:18:36.080 --> 0:18:37.520 And do something fun. 0:18:38.840 --> 0:18:40.920 And you are at this point around how old. 0:18:41.640 --> 0:18:45.680 I'm almost positive this is also before school. I might 0:18:45.720 --> 0:18:49.439 have started kindergarten, but I was homeschooled for some of kindergarten, 0:18:49.600 --> 0:18:52.679 so it's really hard to say. 0:18:52.760 --> 0:18:59.200 You also try to tell other people and really bravely 0:18:59.640 --> 0:19:03.359 try to talk to Mark's sister Dana, and she doesn't 0:19:03.400 --> 0:19:07.000 believe you. No, she did not, So there's there's no 0:19:07.119 --> 0:19:11.119 protection at that stage in your life. I mean, you try, 0:19:11.320 --> 0:19:13.719 and you I would imagine that would have felt like well, 0:19:13.760 --> 0:19:16.679 and there's just no point trying because no one believes me. 0:19:17.280 --> 0:19:22.200 Yeah, like I remember the conversation pretty vividly, and her 0:19:22.320 --> 0:19:26.280 telling me, like, you shouldn't make things up. And even 0:19:26.320 --> 0:19:30.399 though I knew I wasn't making anything up, and if 0:19:30.480 --> 0:19:32.399 people told me I was lying about something, when I 0:19:32.440 --> 0:19:34.440 was a kid, I would get mad. If I knew 0:19:34.480 --> 0:19:37.000 I wasn't lying about this thing, I wasn't mad. I 0:19:37.080 --> 0:19:40.680 just felt immediate shame, like I had done something wrong. 0:19:41.160 --> 0:19:44.199 And I didn't have this language then, But now I 0:19:44.240 --> 0:19:48.919 think it was that I understood that it wasn't so 0:19:49.040 --> 0:19:51.639 much that she thought I was lying, but that saying 0:19:51.680 --> 0:19:54.639 it out loud to someone was somehow as bad as 0:19:54.640 --> 0:19:55.000 a lie. 0:19:55.720 --> 0:19:59.639 Now I understand. I think she just couldn't or didn't 0:19:59.640 --> 0:20:00.679 want to believe it. 0:20:01.560 --> 0:20:04.680 And it was easier to assume that, like a kid, 0:20:04.800 --> 0:20:07.399 was making something up, because then you don't have to 0:20:07.440 --> 0:20:08.000 do anything. 0:20:08.080 --> 0:20:10.639 You can just scold the kid and walk away. 0:20:11.119 --> 0:20:14.480 Whereas if she had believed me, her whole life would 0:20:14.480 --> 0:20:17.240 have been upended and it would have led to a 0:20:17.280 --> 0:20:21.200 lot of hard conversations. And that's not totally understandable, no problem, 0:20:21.720 --> 0:20:24.760 just more that I can see how someone makes a 0:20:24.800 --> 0:20:28.600 really bad decision. I can understand all of the even 0:20:28.920 --> 0:20:31.680 subconscious things that are happening to lead to them doing 0:20:31.720 --> 0:20:36.520 something that creates ripples for the rest of someone's life. 0:20:40.400 --> 0:20:43.200 Along the way, there are people who reach out to help, 0:20:43.720 --> 0:20:48.280 who try to intervene and offer sanctuary, including Britney's mother's brother, 0:20:48.600 --> 0:20:53.200 her uncle John, but their situation is constantly too much 0:20:53.560 --> 0:20:57.440 for friends or relatives to handle. Britney's mom and Mark 0:20:57.480 --> 0:21:00.320 are on the outs again, so when Brittany is ten 0:21:00.720 --> 0:21:03.440 and Ben is six, they moved back to the barn 0:21:03.640 --> 0:21:07.399 with their grandparents. Brittany a door's Ben and Relish is 0:21:07.480 --> 0:21:10.399 the time they get to spend together, but this time 0:21:10.880 --> 0:21:14.359 there's nothing but fear and worry. 0:21:14.640 --> 0:21:17.000 My brother and I were staying with my grandma. I 0:21:17.000 --> 0:21:21.879 believe my mom was at a doctor's appointment, and he 0:21:21.960 --> 0:21:24.199 went out to play and I was playing on my 0:21:24.280 --> 0:21:28.160 game boy, and my grandma asked me to go check 0:21:28.200 --> 0:21:31.560 on him, and instead of going outside, I just looked 0:21:31.560 --> 0:21:34.800 out the window and I saw him playing. He really 0:21:34.880 --> 0:21:37.919 liked building forts out of stuff, and my grandpa had 0:21:37.960 --> 0:21:41.120 all kinds of materials from his business, so he was 0:21:41.320 --> 0:21:45.200 building a fort. He had like a little plywood roof 0:21:45.359 --> 0:21:49.040 on some saw horses, and then you know, I sat 0:21:49.080 --> 0:21:53.080 back down and I remember my grandma sighing because I 0:21:53.160 --> 0:21:55.720 was being lazy and she wanted me to go outside 0:21:55.720 --> 0:21:59.080 and ask. But rather than tell me, like hey, I 0:21:59.080 --> 0:22:01.879 wanted you to do, this was just. 0:22:01.119 --> 0:22:03.960 Sighing so I would feel bad, which I did. 0:22:04.760 --> 0:22:07.920 But then sometime later I had a friend who lived 0:22:08.400 --> 0:22:10.200 in a little house at the end of the driveway, 0:22:10.320 --> 0:22:13.200 and I went over to see her, and then when 0:22:13.200 --> 0:22:17.000 I came back, he was gone. I assumed that he 0:22:17.119 --> 0:22:19.159 was inside with my grandma, but when I got in, 0:22:20.080 --> 0:22:22.359 she was panicked and she couldn't find him. 0:22:22.440 --> 0:22:23.960 So we looked all over the barn. 0:22:24.400 --> 0:22:29.760 We looked in the backyard, and again there were cornfields 0:22:30.200 --> 0:22:33.359 on one side for miles and then woods on the 0:22:33.400 --> 0:22:38.080 other side for miles. It was just very quickly, like 0:22:38.160 --> 0:22:42.119 this horrifying thing, like did he get lost? Did someone 0:22:42.240 --> 0:22:45.879 take him? And honestly I didn't have any reason to 0:22:45.920 --> 0:22:48.000 think that he had been taken, but that's where my 0:22:48.080 --> 0:22:51.280 brain went because when we were kids, I think, just 0:22:51.359 --> 0:22:54.760 because things were so hectic, we were always hearing, you know, 0:22:54.840 --> 0:22:58.360 don't talk to strangers, don't get anyone's car, kids get 0:22:58.400 --> 0:23:01.000 taken all the time, don't walk for me in the store, 0:23:01.960 --> 0:23:05.760 And that always felt like someone taking you away. Whether 0:23:05.760 --> 0:23:09.119 it was CPS or a stranger or the boogeyman, it 0:23:09.240 --> 0:23:12.639 was like the worst thing that could happen, and so 0:23:12.840 --> 0:23:15.760 my mind went to the worst thing, and I just 0:23:16.680 --> 0:23:19.920 built this story in my head that someone had taken him, 0:23:20.040 --> 0:23:21.120 and that's what happened. 0:23:21.560 --> 0:23:24.040 And I eventually saw an. 0:23:23.920 --> 0:23:27.520 Ambulance down by the highway and ran to it, and 0:23:27.560 --> 0:23:30.480 he was in there, and the police took us to 0:23:30.520 --> 0:23:35.200 the hospital, and my mom showed up, and they did 0:23:35.240 --> 0:23:37.359 all kinds of tests on him, and he ended up 0:23:37.359 --> 0:23:39.240 going back with his dad that night, and I didn't 0:23:39.240 --> 0:23:39.720