1
00:00:00,800 --> 00:00:04,160
Speaker 1: Hi. This is Laura Vanderkam. I'm a mother of four,

2
00:00:04,480 --> 00:00:08,319
Speaker 1: an author, journalist, and speaker. And this is Sarah Hart Hunger.

3
00:00:08,680 --> 00:00:11,680
Speaker 1: I'm a mother of three, practicing physician and blogger. On

4
00:00:11,720 --> 00:00:14,480
Speaker 1: the side, we are two working parents who love our

5
00:00:14,520 --> 00:00:17,760
Speaker 1: careers and our families. Welcome to best of both worlds.

6
00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:21,400
Speaker 1: Here we talk about how real women manage work, family,

7
00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:25,240
Speaker 1: and time for fun, from figuring out childcare to mapping

8
00:00:25,239 --> 00:00:28,120
Speaker 1: out long term career goals. We want you to get

9
00:00:28,120 --> 00:00:32,600
Speaker 1: the most out of life. Welcome to best of both worlds.

10
00:00:32,680 --> 00:00:35,320
Speaker 1: This is Laura. This is episode one hundred and thirty six,

11
00:00:35,360 --> 00:00:38,680
Speaker 1: which is airing in early to mid March. We're going

12
00:00:38,720 --> 00:00:42,640
Speaker 1: to be interviewing Stu Friedman, who is the author of

13
00:00:42,680 --> 00:00:46,680
Speaker 1: the new book Parents Who Lead. He's also a professor

14
00:00:46,680 --> 00:00:50,400
Speaker 1: emeritus at Wharton here in Philadelphia, so we've gotten to

15
00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:52,120
Speaker 1: meet in person a couple times, which has been great.

16
00:00:52,159 --> 00:00:53,920
Speaker 1: He's a wonderful person to talk to, so I'm really

17
00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:57,680
Speaker 1: looking forward to that. That's so cool. Too bad he

18
00:00:57,680 --> 00:01:00,000
Speaker 1: couldn't have joined you live. We probably could have worked

19
00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:03,520
Speaker 1: that out, but that would have required me to think ahead. Yeah,

20
00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:05,440
Speaker 1: and that would have been happened my brain's a little

21
00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:08,800
Speaker 1: bit moshe right now because still in the newborn phase,

22
00:01:08,880 --> 00:01:11,679
Speaker 1: you know, yes, well, plus then you'd be a little

23
00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:14,320
Speaker 1: farther from the baby, which makes things harder. And there

24
00:01:14,360 --> 00:01:17,520
Speaker 1: you go. Yeah, yeah, So you know, he wrote a

25
00:01:17,520 --> 00:01:19,640
Speaker 1: book and I know you enjoyed it. But I just

26
00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:21,640
Speaker 1: thought this would be a good time to update our

27
00:01:21,720 --> 00:01:25,119
Speaker 1: listeners about how our reading is going in this year.

28
00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:27,200
Speaker 1: Now that we're you know, about a sixth of the

29
00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:30,600
Speaker 1: way through as this is airing, did you end up

30
00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:33,440
Speaker 1: getting to read a lot while? I mean, I was

31
00:01:33,520 --> 00:01:35,600
Speaker 1: going to say on your maternity leave, But again, every

32
00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:37,360
Speaker 1: time I say that, I feel bad because you didn't.

33
00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:41,639
Speaker 1: You don't really get that kind of protected swaths of time. Yeah,

34
00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:46,160
Speaker 1: there's there's upsides and downsides, as we've discussed, and in general,

35
00:01:46,240 --> 00:01:49,760
Speaker 1: I like the upsides. So I'm just keeping that in

36
00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:53,360
Speaker 1: mind as I am doing all sorts of multitask work.

37
00:01:54,040 --> 00:01:56,880
Speaker 1: But I have been able to read because one of

38
00:01:56,960 --> 00:02:00,480
Speaker 1: the upsides of nursing is you have a ton of

39
00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:02,240
Speaker 1: time to read, Like you can't really do much else.

40
00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:03,800
Speaker 1: I mean, I do have to do other things. I'm

41
00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:06,920
Speaker 1: like walking around the house carrying a baby, but I

42
00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:10,000
Speaker 1: sit there and read on the kindle app on my phone.

43
00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:12,880
Speaker 1: I've gotten through a couple books I read Selene on

44
00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:16,280
Speaker 1: your recommendation. Did you like it? Yeah? I thought there

45
00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:18,520
Speaker 1: was you know, I liked a lot of it. I

46
00:02:18,520 --> 00:02:22,760
Speaker 1: think there was some strange like is he actually accusing

47
00:02:23,480 --> 00:02:27,480
Speaker 1: George Bush Senior of being part of the murder of

48
00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:33,360
Speaker 1: the Chilean finance minister? Unclear? Well he didn't, He's really

49
00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:37,800
Speaker 1: did he not specify who the person known to everyone

50
00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:40,600
Speaker 1: who's in the CIA and somebody else? Says the Vice President.

51
00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:43,399
Speaker 1: I'm like, that's so funny. See, I'm so much less

52
00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:45,919
Speaker 1: politically minded that I was like vague, like I did

53
00:02:45,919 --> 00:02:49,680
Speaker 1: not it was not I didn't. Yeah it was. I

54
00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:51,440
Speaker 1: guess it wasn't that vague, But it also was not

55
00:02:51,520 --> 00:02:54,560
Speaker 1: like a central point of that. But it just coming

56
00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:55,840
Speaker 1: back to that, I'm like, well, that is a pretty

57
00:02:55,840 --> 00:03:02,639
Speaker 1: studdying accusation. I didn't think that was, you know, jury thing.

58
00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:07,079
Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure because that, well, maybe if we ever

59
00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:08,400
Speaker 1: have him on our guests, we'll be like, did you

60
00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:10,240
Speaker 1: mean to make a political statement with that book or

61
00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:11,960
Speaker 1: was it just more of a character study? Which is

62
00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:14,280
Speaker 1: how I read it, And I felt like the Selene

63
00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:17,239
Speaker 1: character herself was what I really enjoyed about. Yeah. No,

64
00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:19,800
Speaker 1: she was quite the interesting private eye that I wish

65
00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:22,080
Speaker 1: her husband had been more developed too, as her just

66
00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:24,799
Speaker 1: sort of one of the least developed sidekick characters in

67
00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:29,120
Speaker 1: a and he was intriguing enough to be interesting. But

68
00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:30,600
Speaker 1: I agree, I would have liked to know more of

69
00:03:30,600 --> 00:03:34,840
Speaker 1: a backstory. And yeah so, but I mean, as you wrote,

70
00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:39,240
Speaker 1: the descriptions of Yellowstone and the area around Yellowstone, the

71
00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:43,160
Speaker 1: Montana parts of Yellowstone are just gorgeous, and I really

72
00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:46,280
Speaker 1: enjoyed reading that, especially having been there about two years

73
00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:49,360
Speaker 1: ago now, so you know, if he describes it well,

74
00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:52,160
Speaker 1: and that is kind of how that wild, wonderful area

75
00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:55,720
Speaker 1: of this country looks. So I really enjoyed that part

76
00:03:55,720 --> 00:03:57,840
Speaker 1: of it. You know, I've I've been reading a lot

77
00:03:57,840 --> 00:04:00,760
Speaker 1: of other stuff too. I've got a through some lists

78
00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:02,280
Speaker 1: and figure out what I want to read next, because

79
00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:05,480
Speaker 1: I just finished Selene and I finished a book called

80
00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:08,800
Speaker 1: A Time to Build, which is about the sort of

81
00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:13,560
Speaker 1: politically the decline of institutions and how we should probably

82
00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:20,000
Speaker 1: have stronger institutions in this country, between voluntary associations, churches, unions,

83
00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:22,240
Speaker 1: things like that that people join that they don't have

84
00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:26,360
Speaker 1: to right, and those are have gotten a lot weaker,

85
00:04:26,440 --> 00:04:28,800
Speaker 1: all of those things that on both sides of the

86
00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:32,800
Speaker 1: political spectrum. So interesting argument. Yeah, how about you? What

87
00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:35,479
Speaker 1: have you been reading? Yeah? So, I mean this year

88
00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:37,360
Speaker 1: was the first year I kind of tried to set

89
00:04:37,440 --> 00:04:40,200
Speaker 1: up reading lists ahead of time. Normally, I'm much more like, Okay,

90
00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:42,159
Speaker 1: I'm done, so what am I going to read next?

91
00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:44,839
Speaker 1: And this time I made a Q one list that

92
00:04:44,880 --> 00:04:46,680
Speaker 1: had about eight books in it, and Q one is

93
00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:49,080
Speaker 1: not over and the time it airs and I'm done

94
00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:52,400
Speaker 1: about five of the books, so we'll see. I do

95
00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:54,359
Speaker 1: enjoy kind of not having to think about my next

96
00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:56,960
Speaker 1: read and having it all selected for me, even though

97
00:04:57,000 --> 00:05:02,120
Speaker 1: I guess I'm the one still doing It's just past Sarah. Yeah,

98
00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:05,160
Speaker 1: it's past Sarah. But no, I find that sometimes if

99
00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:07,920
Speaker 1: I don't do that, I get stuck in this like

100
00:05:08,279 --> 00:05:10,960
Speaker 1: hinterland of Oh I need to pick something new, but

101
00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:12,800
Speaker 1: what should I pick? And then you know, I don't

102
00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:14,200
Speaker 1: have something from the library, and then I have to

103
00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:16,120
Speaker 1: put it on the whole list. But if you think ahead,

104
00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:20,120
Speaker 1: you can really game that library's holeless system. And I've

105
00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:24,000
Speaker 1: actually been really pleasantly surprised that some fairly popular titles

106
00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:26,159
Speaker 1: have come through for me faster than I thought, Like,

107
00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:28,640
Speaker 1: I just got The Dutch House by and Patchet from

108
00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:31,479
Speaker 1: our library, and I assume that would take weeks to months,

109
00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:34,080
Speaker 1: but it actually was much faster. I did just finish

110
00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:36,520
Speaker 1: The Snow Child, and I thought it was really another

111
00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:39,200
Speaker 1: one of those I don't know. It's not a perfect book,

112
00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:41,599
Speaker 1: but it's got great outdoor vistas as well. And I

113
00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:44,520
Speaker 1: think I'm craving wintry scenes because we don't have any

114
00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:48,000
Speaker 1: actions actually get me. So I had somebody on my

115
00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:51,119
Speaker 1: Instagram comment that they read that paired with The Grade Alone,

116
00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:52,880
Speaker 1: which is also set in Alaska, and I'm like, oh,

117
00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:56,400
Speaker 1: what a perfect little winter winter moment. Yeah, winter duo.

118
00:05:56,600 --> 00:05:58,320
Speaker 1: So maybe I should just go to Florida. I'm not

119
00:05:58,320 --> 00:06:01,560
Speaker 1: feeling like I need that. Well, I'm sure there's lots

120
00:06:01,560 --> 00:06:03,720
Speaker 1: of beachy tropical reads. Actually, I have a lot of

121
00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:06,159
Speaker 1: them on my Q two list. There's a couple from

122
00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:08,960
Speaker 1: some Miami author that is set in Cuba. So I'll

123
00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:13,240
Speaker 1: report back about those awesome. Well, we are looking forward

124
00:06:13,279 --> 00:06:16,600
Speaker 1: to this interview with Stu, so we'll get right to that. Well,

125
00:06:16,640 --> 00:06:20,039
Speaker 1: Sarah and I are excited to welcome Stuart Friedman to

126
00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:22,880
Speaker 1: the program. He is the co author, with Alyssa Westing,

127
00:06:22,960 --> 00:06:26,640
Speaker 1: of the new book Parents Who Lead. He is also

128
00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:30,960
Speaker 1: a professor emeritus now I Believe at Wharton, which is

129
00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:35,040
Speaker 1: at the University of Pennsylvania here in Philadelphia. He's hosted

130
00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:39,160
Speaker 1: a great show on Sirius XM radio on work and Life.

131
00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:41,040
Speaker 1: I've been able to be on that a few times,

132
00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:42,680
Speaker 1: which has been a lot of fun, and he is

133
00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:45,159
Speaker 1: just an all around great person. So we're excited to

134
00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:49,080
Speaker 1: have you here, Stu. How's everything going, Very exciting time

135
00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:53,159
Speaker 1: in my life. Thanks so much for having me. Laura, Sarah,

136
00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:55,479
Speaker 1: it's great to be here, no problem. So tell us

137
00:06:55,520 --> 00:06:59,239
Speaker 1: a little bit about your career journey and your family

138
00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:03,280
Speaker 1: as well. All right, well, it's a long story. I'm

139
00:07:03,279 --> 00:07:05,840
Speaker 1: going to be sixty eight this summer, so I'll try

140
00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:10,320
Speaker 1: to keep it brief. I have three kids, been married

141
00:07:11,360 --> 00:07:15,000
Speaker 1: since nineteen eighty, so that's going on forty years to

142
00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:18,680
Speaker 1: a woman who I met at a graduate school interview

143
00:07:19,760 --> 00:07:22,680
Speaker 1: and we ended up going to the same graduate school together.

144
00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:27,960
Speaker 1: She in clinical psychology and me in organizational psychology at

145
00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:32,560
Speaker 1: the University of Michigan, and our eldest is thirty two.

146
00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:36,640
Speaker 1: And we also have a twenty nine year old and

147
00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:40,080
Speaker 1: a twenty six year old's a boy boy girl. The

148
00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:46,520
Speaker 1: eldest Scott married last year and by adoption, I now

149
00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:52,320
Speaker 1: have a thirteen year old grandson. Wow. And next month

150
00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:59,000
Speaker 1: our first biologically created grandchild arrives. It all goes well,

151
00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:03,160
Speaker 1: so we're really looking forward to that. Yeah, new phase

152
00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:08,080
Speaker 1: of life. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And and and my father

153
00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:10,680
Speaker 1: died two weeks ago. Oh my goodness, I'm so sorry

154
00:08:11,080 --> 00:08:14,480
Speaker 1: ninety oh wow. Well, you know that was a profound

155
00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:18,720
Speaker 1: change as well. And so it's this magical cycle of

156
00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:22,240
Speaker 1: life that is I'm right in the thick of it.

157
00:08:22,320 --> 00:08:28,280
Speaker 1: And yeah, it's quite mysterious. So that's a brief on

158
00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:32,280
Speaker 1: sort of my family life. Shall I say more about

159
00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:35,760
Speaker 1: how that intersects with my sure your career, because I

160
00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:37,800
Speaker 1: know you had a corporate career and then you wound

161
00:08:37,880 --> 00:08:40,400
Speaker 1: up over at the University of Pennsylvania. Maybe can talk

162
00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:43,440
Speaker 1: a little bit about about that. Well. I started at

163
00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:48,560
Speaker 1: the University of Pennsylvania in nineteen eighty four in the

164
00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:53,319
Speaker 1: psychology era as an organizational psychologist and have been teaching

165
00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:58,120
Speaker 1: leadership and teams for for a long long time. When

166
00:08:58,160 --> 00:09:03,400
Speaker 1: my first was born, though, I had a kind of

167
00:09:03,440 --> 00:09:08,240
Speaker 1: epiphany when I realized that I now had to take

168
00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:11,480
Speaker 1: care of him, which is something that perhaps you've talked

169
00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:14,240
Speaker 1: about this on your show. I don't know if this

170
00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:16,520
Speaker 1: is more true of men than women, but I had

171
00:09:16,559 --> 00:09:21,840
Speaker 1: no clue what I was getting into. But I couldn't

172
00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:25,080
Speaker 1: stop thinking about what I needed to now do to

173
00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:28,040
Speaker 1: take care of him and to create a world in

174
00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:32,480
Speaker 1: which he was going to grow up safe. So I

175
00:09:33,400 --> 00:09:38,200
Speaker 1: brought this question to my students in the NBA classroom.

176
00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:43,120
Speaker 1: This is a course on basic management, Intro Management class,

177
00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:46,959
Speaker 1: and I set aside the class session for that day,

178
00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:51,240
Speaker 1: which was about motivation and reward systems, and I said,

179
00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:52,760
Speaker 1: you know, there's something else I need to talk with

180
00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:57,920
Speaker 1: you about. And I just started ranting. I hadn't completely unprepared,

181
00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:04,600
Speaker 1: but well, it was a memorable day because I asked

182
00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:08,480
Speaker 1: the students, what are you, as future business leaders, going

183
00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:13,280
Speaker 1: to do to ensure the healthy development of the next

184
00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:18,199
Speaker 1: generation not just of talent in your companies, but period.

185
00:10:19,760 --> 00:10:22,520
Speaker 1: And of course they were annoyed that I wasn't dealing

186
00:10:22,520 --> 00:10:25,559
Speaker 1: with the topic that they had prepared for. This was

187
00:10:25,640 --> 00:10:28,120
Speaker 1: back in the day when students used to prepare for class.

188
00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:34,520
Speaker 1: Let's not get into that. But further, you know, there

189
00:10:34,559 --> 00:10:39,079
Speaker 1: were people saying, you know, professor, nobody cares about your family,

190
00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:43,400
Speaker 1: and why are we talking about families and children here

191
00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:46,640
Speaker 1: when that's not really the agenda. We're in a business school.

192
00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:50,160
Speaker 1: Of course, other people in the room, men and women,

193
00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:56,559
Speaker 1: were quite interested in this question and really leaned into

194
00:10:56,640 --> 00:11:00,640
Speaker 1: the conversation. One of them in response to my question,

195
00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:04,240
Speaker 1: what are you going to do to cultivate the next

196
00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:07,760
Speaker 1: generation to make it a safe environment for them to

197
00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:10,000
Speaker 1: grow up? And one of them said, well, you're the professor,

198
00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:14,200
Speaker 1: you tell us. And of course I had no answers.

199
00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:17,560
Speaker 1: I only had the question. And that's what I made

200
00:11:17,559 --> 00:11:22,520
Speaker 1: a career of, is asking annoying, provocative questions. If you

201
00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:25,240
Speaker 1: want proof of that, just ask my daughter. She'll tell

202
00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:27,920
Speaker 1: you that I'm really good at asking annoying questions. But

203
00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:32,360
Speaker 1: putting that aside for a moment, it was an important

204
00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:36,360
Speaker 1: moment for me because I realized that with my training

205
00:11:36,559 --> 00:11:41,120
Speaker 1: and access, I could explore this question seriously, and I

206
00:11:41,160 --> 00:11:44,520
Speaker 1: did so. I founded the Wharton Work Life Integration Project

207
00:11:44,520 --> 00:11:47,560
Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety one, the same year that I was

208
00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:50,679
Speaker 1: asked to start the Leadership program. At the Wharton School.

209
00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:55,880
Speaker 1: So in parallel, I was pursuing new knowledge, practical knowledge

210
00:11:55,880 --> 00:11:59,520
Speaker 1: about how to cultivate leaders, which is what my dissertation

211
00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:03,160
Speaker 1: had been about the decade prior, and where I was

212
00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:08,440
Speaker 1: working on with companies on their talent management systems and

213
00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:11,240
Speaker 1: at the same time going into the field and also

214
00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:14,280
Speaker 1: doing survey research on what does it take for people

215
00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:16,319
Speaker 1: to integrate the different parts of their lives in a

216
00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:18,880
Speaker 1: way that works for all of them. So notice the

217
00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:23,079
Speaker 1: name of the project was the Work Life Integration Project.

218
00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:25,280
Speaker 1: It was not about the balance project. And I've been

219
00:12:25,360 --> 00:12:29,440
Speaker 1: railing for three decades plus now against that term that's

220
00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:33,840
Speaker 1: common in our vernacular. Well, let's I mean, why is

221
00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:36,400
Speaker 1: that why? Because you know, one of the reasons we

222
00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:38,240
Speaker 1: wind up using it a lot is that's what people

223
00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:43,240
Speaker 1: search for, because it's the word that people use. But

224
00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:46,600
Speaker 1: why do you like integration as opposed to balance? Well,

225
00:12:46,679 --> 00:12:52,800
Speaker 1: integration or harmony that are better terms than balance. Because

226
00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:56,520
Speaker 1: the balance metaphor you know, the scales and balance or

227
00:12:56,640 --> 00:13:01,120
Speaker 1: seesaw it connotes in your mind and to all those

228
00:13:01,760 --> 00:13:07,040
Speaker 1: a part of the conversation a win lose, right, one's up,

229
00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:12,200
Speaker 1: the others down, And that is that's limiting. It's of

230
00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:14,599
Speaker 1: course true that we have to make sacrifices and that

231
00:13:14,640 --> 00:13:18,199
Speaker 1: we can't have everything all at once. No one has balance.

232
00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:21,040
Speaker 1: And I've been studying this forever and I can tell

233
00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:24,160
Speaker 1: you no one has perfect balance, and no one has

234
00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:28,040
Speaker 1: it all at the same time. And the idea of

235
00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:34,440
Speaker 1: thinking about trade offs and sacrifice as the default in

236
00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:37,200
Speaker 1: your head and in your actions and the way you

237
00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:47,079
Speaker 1: see the world leaves you missing opportunities for taking action, intelligent, mindful, proactive,

238
00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:54,480
Speaker 1: conscious action that is intended instead to create wins or

239
00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:58,240
Speaker 1: success for it. Not just your work, not just your family,

240
00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:01,880
Speaker 1: not just your community, not just your self personally, mind, body,

241
00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:05,040
Speaker 1: and spirit. We're all but all four parts of your life.

242
00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:07,720
Speaker 1: And if you frame it that way, if you think about,

243
00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:10,280
Speaker 1: what can I do that's going to have a positive

244
00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:13,800
Speaker 1: impact on all the different parts, either directly or indirectly,

245
00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:16,360
Speaker 1: Like say, for example, by taking care of yourself, you

246
00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:23,160
Speaker 1: become a less annoying colleague and a better mother and friend.

247
00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:27,080
Speaker 1: If you think about, well, how can I take action

248
00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:29,280
Speaker 1: that's going to be good for all the different parts

249
00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:31,600
Speaker 1: my life and the people who matter most to me

250
00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:34,840
Speaker 1: in the different parts, well, then you are much likely

251
00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:40,920
Speaker 1: to pursue and find those wins instead of assuming trade off.

252
00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:45,280
Speaker 1: So that's one of the main reasons why the balance

253
00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:50,200
Speaker 1: metaphor is harmful and why it's much better to think

254
00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:53,240
Speaker 1: in terms of harmony. I like the metaphor of the

255
00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:57,320
Speaker 1: jazz quartet, which I wrote about in the Total Leadership

256
00:14:57,320 --> 00:15:00,280
Speaker 1: book a dozen years ago, where you think about these

257
00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:04,800
Speaker 1: different parts of your life as instruments or players, and

258
00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:07,520
Speaker 1: a jazz quartet, where the idea is to try to

259
00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:14,240
Speaker 1: create something beautiful together, where there's improvisation, constant change on

260
00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:18,320
Speaker 1: a motif that is being developed over time, not at

261
00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:23,000
Speaker 1: a single moment. And sometimes you just hear the trumpet

262
00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:29,280
Speaker 1: and the other instruments are musical term resting. Other times

263
00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:31,840
Speaker 1: you're hearing well the bass and the drums are playing.

264
00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:36,160
Speaker 1: The others are silent, but they're always listening to each

265
00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:38,760
Speaker 1: other and responsive to each other, and it's a whole

266
00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:42,400
Speaker 1: that you're looking at. It's a more dynamic and I

267
00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:45,680
Speaker 1: think realistic way to think about the relationship of work

268
00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:51,200
Speaker 1: and home and community and self. The last thing I'll

269
00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:53,400
Speaker 1: say about this, I think it's an important one, is

270
00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:55,800
Speaker 1: in the late nineties I was asked to join the

271
00:15:55,840 --> 00:15:58,240
Speaker 1: Ford motor company. So I took a leave from Wharton

272
00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:01,520
Speaker 1: after being a professor there for fifteen years, and left

273
00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:03,360
Speaker 1: for a few years to serve as the head of

274
00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:07,800
Speaker 1: leadership development for Ford Motor globally. So my wife and

275
00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:10,200
Speaker 1: I now we have three kids. They're twelve, nine, and

276
00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:12,920
Speaker 1: six at the time, and we moved back to ann

277
00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:16,280
Speaker 1: Arbor where we went to graduate school. Except now we're

278
00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:20,480
Speaker 1: not starving graduate students. I'm a fat cat senior executive

279
00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:23,160
Speaker 1: at a big company, and so our lifestyle was very,

280
00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:26,920
Speaker 1: very different. And you know, I got there having written

281
00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:29,760
Speaker 1: an article in the Harvard Business Review called Work and

282
00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:32,520
Speaker 1: Life the End of the Zero Sum Game, which was

283
00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:35,240
Speaker 1: one of the first pieces to really address this issue.

284
00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:39,960
Speaker 1: And I inherited a small team that eventually grew during

285
00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:43,600
Speaker 1: our time there, where total leadership was created. But when

286
00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:47,120
Speaker 1: I first arrived, the people who were in the leadership

287
00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:50,640
Speaker 1: development center said, hey, you're a mister work life. I

288
00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:55,720
Speaker 1: need Fridays off or you know, I need this, I

289
00:16:55,760 --> 00:17:00,360
Speaker 1: need that, And I said, whoa wait a minute. Working

290
00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:02,680
Speaker 1: for me, I now have a real boss for the

291
00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:06,719
Speaker 1: first time in my life, who's expecting a lot and

292
00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:11,680
Speaker 1: very very demanding. How are you going to help me

293
00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:16,080
Speaker 1: and us succeed. How by your being off on Friday?

294
00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:18,720
Speaker 1: Is that going to help us? So, yeah, you had

295
00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:21,560
Speaker 1: to look at the business case for things, which we're

296
00:17:21,560 --> 00:17:24,399
Speaker 1: going to take. Speaking of the business case, see, we

297
00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:26,920
Speaker 1: got to take it at ad break real quick. So

298
00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:41,440
Speaker 1: we'll be back in one second. So we are back

299
00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:44,080
Speaker 1: with Professor Stewart Friedman, who is the author of the

300
00:17:44,119 --> 00:17:47,880
Speaker 1: new book Parents Who Lead, And we've been talking about

301
00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:49,960
Speaker 1: why we want to think of work in life as

302
00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:53,640
Speaker 1: more of a jazz quartet as opposed to a balanced metaphor.

303
00:17:54,080 --> 00:17:56,560
Speaker 1: And when you do this right, there can be career

304
00:17:56,640 --> 00:17:59,560
Speaker 1: wins to thinking about family as well. You're mentioning that

305
00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:02,919
Speaker 1: you were looking at this corporate from the perspective of like,

306
00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:06,600
Speaker 1: how does friday off help me? Right? Like, how does

307
00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:09,280
Speaker 1: this help advance our bottom line as the boss? So

308
00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:11,800
Speaker 1: what did you find, I mean, what is sort of

309
00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:14,879
Speaker 1: the business case for this? Well, one of the reasons

310
00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:18,119
Speaker 1: why this total leadership approach works both for individuals and

311
00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:21,400
Speaker 1: now in the focus we've got for people who are

312
00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:24,200
Speaker 1: in parenting partnerships. That's how we refer to people raising

313
00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:27,960
Speaker 1: kids together because it comes in many different forms. Of course,

314
00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:32,000
Speaker 1: those partnerships One of the reasons why it seems to

315
00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:35,760
Speaker 1: work in different societies and different cultures around the world

316
00:18:35,800 --> 00:18:42,119
Speaker 1: because we've brought it to companies and individuals worldwide, is

317
00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:48,399
Speaker 1: that the method and the principles are customized to the

318
00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:53,960
Speaker 1: individual's situation. So there's no one best way to make

319
00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:58,040
Speaker 1: it work except that it has to work not just

320
00:18:58,119 --> 00:19:02,080
Speaker 1: for you and your kids, but for your career and

321
00:19:02,119 --> 00:19:04,280
Speaker 1: the people in your work environment as well as in

322
00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:07,200
Speaker 1: your community. And that's the leadership mindset that we train

323
00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:12,639
Speaker 1: people to adopt. So the key to success in this

324
00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:16,120
Speaker 1: is to think as a leader about how you can

325
00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:18,720
Speaker 1: make change happen in a way that's good for you

326
00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:22,439
Speaker 1: and for us. And so when people came to me

327
00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:26,879
Speaker 1: and said here's what I need, I said to them, great,

328
00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:29,080
Speaker 1: tell me how that's going to help us. And what

329
00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:32,320
Speaker 1: I found and this was sort of the magical question

330
00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:37,120
Speaker 1: in a way that really opened up possibilities for innovation.

331
00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:43,119
Speaker 1: You take responsibility for thinking through how what you want

332
00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:45,920
Speaker 1: it's good for you, is going to have some kind

333
00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:48,760
Speaker 1: of positive effect for what we're trying to do together.

334
00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:52,120
Speaker 1: And when you challenge people with that question, and I've

335
00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:55,600
Speaker 1: done this now tens of thousands of times, I've never

336
00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:57,560
Speaker 1: met anyone who couldn't come up with a really good

337
00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:00,560
Speaker 1: answer because what they're asking for us something that they

338
00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:05,000
Speaker 1: really care about, and they're going to get very creative

339
00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:07,880
Speaker 1: about how they can make change happen in a way

340
00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:12,280
Speaker 1: that's good for them and for you. So there's no

341
00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:16,760
Speaker 1: one magic solution other than to think of yourself as

342
00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:18,520
Speaker 1: a leader in the different parts of your life and

343
00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:23,920
Speaker 1: that you're charged and your ability really is to look

344
00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:27,120
Speaker 1: for opportunities to make things work for not just you,

345
00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:31,320
Speaker 1: and that makes it easier for everyone. So when people

346
00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:35,960
Speaker 1: come up with the idea of, say, shutting off their

347
00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:40,600
Speaker 1: online stream for say a chunk of four hours on

348
00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:44,760
Speaker 1: a Wednesday afternoon, and they realize that that's going to

349
00:20:44,760 --> 00:20:47,200
Speaker 1: be something that is going to be good for them

350
00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:50,480
Speaker 1: and for their productivity as well as for their kids

351
00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:53,800
Speaker 1: and their friends. You can fill in the blanks as

352
00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:57,359
Speaker 1: to how that would play out, right. They then pitch

353
00:20:57,400 --> 00:21:00,439
Speaker 1: it to their boss in the following way. I'd like

354
00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:02,919
Speaker 1: to try for the next month or so, an experiment

355
00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:08,040
Speaker 1: in which I'm offline for you know, for this chunk

356
00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:11,760
Speaker 1: of time for the next four weeks or so, and

357
00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:15,760
Speaker 1: I believe that that's going to improve my performance in

358
00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:19,399
Speaker 1: ways that you will benefit. Dear boss, would you be

359
00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:21,320
Speaker 1: willing to try that for a month and see if

360
00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:23,600
Speaker 1: it works and if it doesn't, will try something different

361
00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:26,520
Speaker 1: or go back to the way things were. Is that

362
00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:30,160
Speaker 1: something you'd be willing to try? And most most people

363
00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:33,000
Speaker 1: will say, sure, you're doing this for me, I get it,

364
00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:37,879
Speaker 1: let's try it, which is a very different scenario than Okay,

365
00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:41,520
Speaker 1: I need Wednesdays off. I need to be off Wednesdays

366
00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:44,360
Speaker 1: because I need to get to my kids, you know whatever,

367
00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:49,679
Speaker 1: the soccer game or you know, doctor appointment. And the

368
00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:52,080
Speaker 1: way that most managers respond to that kind of question

369
00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:57,480
Speaker 1: is no, why do you realize the pressures that I'm

370
00:21:57,560 --> 00:22:01,359
Speaker 1: under and you're asking me for more? Why why get out? No?

371
00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:06,560
Speaker 1: Or if I have to, here's another demand on me.

372
00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:09,719
Speaker 1: But if you instead think of it in terms of

373
00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:14,240
Speaker 1: how you're doing this, it's going to be beneficial to

374
00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:17,600
Speaker 1: your boss, and of course it can be and you

375
00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:19,880
Speaker 1: and you set it up as an experiment that's time

376
00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:24,720
Speaker 1: limited over which your manager has control and influence on

377
00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:27,359
Speaker 1: the outcome, and you would just if it's not working

378
00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:31,520
Speaker 1: with her, with your boss, well that's much more likely

379
00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:34,320
Speaker 1: to succeed. And it's going to overcome the resistance that

380
00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:39,040
Speaker 1: people have to trying something new. So does that answer

381
00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:44,560
Speaker 1: your question? It does, And I have lak and I

382
00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:50,000
Speaker 1: know I said go ahead, ran up following. So do

383
00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:52,720
Speaker 1: you find that men and women respond differently to some

384
00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:55,960
Speaker 1: of these concepts, because, as you're speaking, I'm like, personally

385
00:22:56,119 --> 00:23:00,520
Speaker 1: very excited and happy to hear a male person in

386
00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:05,680
Speaker 1: particular discuss this because most of the time, unfortunately that's

387
00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:08,639
Speaker 1: that's not the messaging I've heard from men of your generation,

388
00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:11,360
Speaker 1: to be completely honest, men that I work alongside. So

389
00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:14,639
Speaker 1: I love what you're saying, but I'm curious whether you

390
00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:20,119
Speaker 1: get different responses that are gender based. That's a great question, Sarah.

391
00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:22,680
Speaker 1: When I first started doing this work, you know, in

392
00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:26,200
Speaker 1: the early nineties, I was one of the very few

393
00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:30,760
Speaker 1: men talking about this stuff. So when we convened the

394
00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:34,920
Speaker 1: Wharton work Life Roundtable in the early nineties, which brought

395
00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:38,679
Speaker 1: together business leaders, you know, the early movers in the

396
00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:42,560
Speaker 1: work life movement, friends and colleagues of mine who were

397
00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:48,280
Speaker 1: policy advocates and early change agents, as well as government agencies,

398
00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:52,280
Speaker 1: and we held it at the Wharton School, there was

399
00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:56,760
Speaker 1: a flurry, really an explosion of interest, Like, what's a

400
00:23:56,800 --> 00:23:59,920
Speaker 1: man at the Wharton School of Business doing talking about children?

401
00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:06,280
Speaker 1: Huh what? So I was an odd messenger and got

402
00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:10,199
Speaker 1: a lot of attention simply because of that, because I

403
00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:13,639
Speaker 1: stood out and was talking about an issue that was

404
00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:18,399
Speaker 1: if you ask your mothers, they'll tell you because you

405
00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:21,840
Speaker 1: guys are a generation behind me. It was an emergent

406
00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:26,479
Speaker 1: issue that was the sole province of women practically, I mean,

407
00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:31,720
Speaker 1: there were a few other guys. And so one of

408
00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:35,520
Speaker 1: the things that I think made the Total Leadership initiative

409
00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:41,120
Speaker 1: successful and continues to grow is that I very consciously

410
00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:48,919
Speaker 1: and subversively used language that was going to resonate with

411
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:54,080
Speaker 1: men to get into the issues that were of great

412
00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:57,720
Speaker 1: concern to men and women of course, but that there

413
00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:01,840
Speaker 1: was a stigma associated with approaching as a man. So

414
00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:07,600
Speaker 1: Total Leadership was about improving performance and results at work

415
00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:14,840
Speaker 1: and at home and in the community and for yourself personally,

416
00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:18,240
Speaker 1: your physical health, mental health, spiritual growth and development. So

417
00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:23,240
Speaker 1: notice what the lead is there. Total leadership is about

418
00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:28,160
Speaker 1: improving performance and results at work. Okay, that sounds right.

419
00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:31,760
Speaker 1: I can talk about that. That's something I care about.

420
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:36,080
Speaker 1: So we very deliberately use language that men could get

421
00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:40,000
Speaker 1: into and that worked. That worked, and then of course

422
00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:43,760
Speaker 1: once you open up the conversation. So what we help

423
00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:46,080
Speaker 1: people to do is learn how to be real, to

424
00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:49,040
Speaker 1: be whole, to be innovative. Those are the three principles

425
00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:52,600
Speaker 1: we found are crucial to growing as a leader and

426
00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:54,920
Speaker 1: to finding harmony among the different parts of your life.

427
00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:57,159
Speaker 1: And it starts with your values and your vision. What

428
00:25:57,200 --> 00:25:59,520
Speaker 1: do you care about, where you're going, where if you

429
00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:01,439
Speaker 1: come from, and why does that drive to you to

430
00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:05,200
Speaker 1: where you want to go? Being real and writing about that,

431
00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:08,560
Speaker 1: talking about that, getting peer to peer feedback on that,

432
00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:12,439
Speaker 1: and of course that opens people up to who am I?

433
00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:16,280
Speaker 1: What's my purpose as a leader, not just here but everywhere?

434
00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:21,840
Speaker 1: Who are the most important people? Be whole meant to

435
00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:25,480
Speaker 1: identify the most important people to you at work, in

436
00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:28,920
Speaker 1: your career, as well as at home, however you define

437
00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:32,080
Speaker 1: homer family and in your community, however you define that,

438
00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:35,159
Speaker 1: And what do those people expect of you? And what

439
00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:38,000
Speaker 1: do you expect of them? And now talk to them

440
00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:42,000
Speaker 1: and here's how to do that. About what you actually

441
00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:44,439
Speaker 1: expect from each other, not what you think they expect,

442
00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:47,720
Speaker 1: but what you actually expect. So we train people to

443
00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:52,400
Speaker 1: do this is leadership basics. Build trust, gain support, see

444
00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:54,960
Speaker 1: the reality of what people actually expect of you, not

445
00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:58,400
Speaker 1: what you think they expect. And what most people discover

446
00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:02,680
Speaker 1: is that what other people expect of them is less

447
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:08,320
Speaker 1: than what they thought, especially ambitious, high potential men and women,

448
00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:11,960
Speaker 1: less than and a little bit different than what they thought.

449
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:15,080
Speaker 1: And if you don't believe me, try this at home

450
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:18,800
Speaker 1: because or wherever you are, because you'll find that. And

451
00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:22,159
Speaker 1: this is the great aha. People go into these conversations

452
00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:26,760
Speaker 1: fearful men as well as women. They're afraid. They're especially

453
00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:29,600
Speaker 1: afraid to talk to their mothers. That's the most critical

454
00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:33,840
Speaker 1: stakeholder in life. It seems most people are afraid of

455
00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:36,080
Speaker 1: what they're going to hear. They have a conversation like

456
00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:40,000
Speaker 1: this with their mothers, they find that they have more

457
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:42,879
Speaker 1: support and love in their lives than they had imagined.

458
00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:47,040
Speaker 1: Particularly at work, people want you to be successful and

459
00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:49,080
Speaker 1: they want to help you in a way that's good

460
00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:53,399
Speaker 1: for both of you. So then that leads to ideas

461
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:56,000
Speaker 1: for innovation. So the third principle we found that people

462
00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:58,200
Speaker 1: who are really good at this is that they're constantly innovating.

463
00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:01,840
Speaker 1: They're constantly experimenting with ways that are good again for

464
00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:04,080
Speaker 1: all the different parts what we call four way wins.

465
00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:09,160
Speaker 1: And you know, men once they're you know, given not

466
00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:12,720
Speaker 1: just license and permission to pursue these issues, but you know,

467
00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:16,520
Speaker 1: when this is done in companies, they're like required to

468
00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:19,880
Speaker 1: talk to your kids and your spouse and your friends

469
00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:22,240
Speaker 1: as well as your business colleagues about what you need

470
00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:25,080
Speaker 1: from each other and to get creative about how to

471
00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:28,480
Speaker 1: solve the puzzle of integrating the different parts. And when

472
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:31,760
Speaker 1: we first did this twenty years ago at Forward, with

473
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:34,600
Speaker 1: our mid career high potentials from all around the world,

474
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:38,280
Speaker 1: men and women, it was like a festival. They were

475
00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:44,360
Speaker 1: so happy that we were compelling them to address their

476
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:48,160
Speaker 1: whole lives, not just their business lies. So, Stu, I

477
00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:52,120
Speaker 1: want to pivot to this subject of your new book,

478
00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:54,920
Speaker 1: the Parents Who Lead, because you're taking this idea of

479
00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:58,080
Speaker 1: envisioning you know where you want to go and being

480
00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:03,680
Speaker 1: innovative and getting fees and applying it to parenting in particular.

481
00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:06,560
Speaker 1: And you've been telling us, of course that this is

482
00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:10,400
Speaker 1: part of the whole broader total leadership, but this book

483
00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:13,520
Speaker 1: in particular focuses on the parenting aspect of it. I

484
00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:16,240
Speaker 1: think most parents are not used to thinking of themselves

485
00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:18,920
Speaker 1: as leaders. But why do you think that's the right

486
00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:22,880
Speaker 1: metaphor for what parents are in their families. Well, what

487
00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:27,440
Speaker 1: is it that leaders do. Leaders see reality as best

488
00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:32,200
Speaker 1: they can, and then they try to take action to

489
00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:35,720
Speaker 1: bring others along with them to a better tomorrow. They

490
00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:39,160
Speaker 1: try to mobilize people towards a goal that matters. That's

491
00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:43,640
Speaker 1: what leaders do. And you can do that in an

492
00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:47,080
Speaker 1: organization that's hierarchical and you have people reporting to you,

493
00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:50,760
Speaker 1: but you can do that anywhere. So the conception of

494
00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:53,320
Speaker 1: leadership that we're talking about here is not so much

495
00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:57,400
Speaker 1: about executive authority in a hierarchy. It's about how you

496
00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:00,720
Speaker 1: get people to go along with you to what you

497
00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:02,800
Speaker 1: envision is a better tomorrow, one that's going to be

498
00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:07,760
Speaker 1: good for you and for them. And that's kind of

499
00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:12,840
Speaker 1: what we're doing as parents, isn't it. One hopes we're

500
00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:19,200
Speaker 1: trying to drive the children to something. But well, I

501
00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:23,520
Speaker 1: mean that, yes, it's hard. It's hard. I mean this

502
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:26,680
Speaker 1: is one of the lightmotives of our book, of course,

503
00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:30,280
Speaker 1: is that this stuff is difficult, as leadership is. But

504
00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:32,880
Speaker 1: what we find is that when we help people to

505
00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:37,200
Speaker 1: envision their roles as leaders and to use some of

506
00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:41,160
Speaker 1: the evidence based knowledge we have about what it takes

507
00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:44,800
Speaker 1: to lead well, like being able to articulate a compelling

508
00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:47,680
Speaker 1: image of an achievable future, a vision. We have some

509
00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:50,360
Speaker 1: tools for how to actually do that, and it's not

510
00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:54,600
Speaker 1: that complicated. Anyone can do it. It starts with identifying

511
00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:58,040
Speaker 1: your core values, which anyone can do and should do,

512
00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:03,040
Speaker 1: sharing those with your partner, and talking about what you

513
00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:07,040
Speaker 1: have in common what you don't, Articulating in a page

514
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:10,920
Speaker 1: or so your description of an ideal day fifteen years

515
00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:13,880
Speaker 1: from now, what happens on that day in the morning,

516
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:16,160
Speaker 1: in the afternoon, in the evening, Who are you with,

517
00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:19,240
Speaker 1: what are you doing, and most importantly why, what's the

518
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:23,640
Speaker 1: impact you're having? So writing that out, having your partner

519
00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:27,880
Speaker 1: do the same, your partner in parenting, comparing those and realizing,

520
00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:30,959
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, we have completely different futures. What are

521
00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:33,360
Speaker 1: we going to do about that? Or wow, there's a

522
00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:36,040
Speaker 1: lot of commonality or whatever it is. But to get

523
00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:39,520
Speaker 1: on the same page, and that's often a challenging conversation,

524
00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:44,240
Speaker 1: but a crucial one to have. It starts with that,

525
00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:49,000
Speaker 1: with being real and articulating you know you're with passion,

526
00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:50,760
Speaker 1: what it is that you're trying to do. And for

527
00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:53,120
Speaker 1: some people in our who've read our book and who've

528
00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:55,000
Speaker 1: been in our program that we've been doing for the

529
00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:58,120
Speaker 1: last few years, the research basis for this, for parents

530
00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:00,920
Speaker 1: who lead, they realize, you know, that's it. I don't

531
00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:03,160
Speaker 1: need to do anymore. We've got we're going to do

532
00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:06,280
Speaker 1: this now. This picture of fifteen years from now. There's

533
00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:08,680
Speaker 1: stuff that we could be doing now, and of course

534
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:11,640
Speaker 1: we try to help them hold on. Now take the

535
00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:14,520
Speaker 1: next step first, which is identify who matters most to

536
00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:16,680
Speaker 1: you in your life, what you think is important to them,

537
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:20,000
Speaker 1: and then talk to them and starting with your kids,

538
00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:22,600
Speaker 1: so they get on the same page as to what

539
00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:25,880
Speaker 1: they think their kids need from them as parents, separately

540
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:30,520
Speaker 1: and together, and we distill the essence of the literature

541
00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:33,920
Speaker 1: and child development in terms of what is it that

542
00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:38,120
Speaker 1: children need. We're not child psychologists, we're organizational psychologists, but

543
00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:42,760
Speaker 1: we sort of curated the wisdom of that field just

544
00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:46,680
Speaker 1: to help frame the conversation about what your children need

545
00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:50,640
Speaker 1: and how to talk to them at different ages. You know,

546
00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:52,600
Speaker 1: obviously you talk to a four year old differently than

547
00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:55,320
Speaker 1: a fourteen year old. But what we have found is

548
00:32:55,320 --> 00:33:00,160
Speaker 1: that people come up with, you know, creative ways to

549
00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:02,959
Speaker 1: talk to their kids, to develop more meaningful connections and

550
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:06,520
Speaker 1: to build trust with them by listening to them. Here's

551
00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:09,880
Speaker 1: what is important to us. What do you think about that?

552
00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:12,440
Speaker 1: How does that relate to how you're thinking about your

553
00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:16,960
Speaker 1: future for littler kids. What does a good mom do?

554
00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:21,960
Speaker 1: What do you want to do? What do you need

555
00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:27,080
Speaker 1: from us? And so by engaging your key stakeholders, very

556
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:32,320
Speaker 1: wart knee kind of term, you're leading by listening, building trust,

557
00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:35,400
Speaker 1: and then trying to create new ways of getting things

558
00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:37,160
Speaker 1: done that are good for them and for you. And

559
00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:39,000
Speaker 1: of course you're doing that in the context of doing

560
00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:42,760
Speaker 1: the same kinds of work with your business colleagues as

561
00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:47,320
Speaker 1: well as your childcare providers and teachers and friends and neighbors.

562
00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:49,880
Speaker 1: But it's not like you're saying, I need this from you,

563
00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:51,840
Speaker 1: I need this from you, I need this from you.

564
00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:57,200
Speaker 1: It's what's important to you. So you're taking that leadership

565
00:33:57,280 --> 00:34:01,160
Speaker 1: leap and seeing yourself through their eyes. And this is

566
00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:06,000
Speaker 1: why it's all about leadership, seeing the world as other

567
00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:10,400
Speaker 1: people do and then crafting solutions that make sense for

568
00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:13,960
Speaker 1: them and for you. In the context of this very

569
00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:18,480
Speaker 1: dynamic social system that you can indeed influence if you

570
00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:23,279
Speaker 1: see yourself as capable of having that influence, which most

571
00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:26,000
Speaker 1: people realize they have more freedom and control than they

572
00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:30,560
Speaker 1: otherwise thought when you don't step back and instead you're

573
00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:34,880
Speaker 1: reactively responding to the day to day grind of just

574
00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:37,399
Speaker 1: getting through the freaking day, which there is a lot

575
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:41,440
Speaker 1: of that. But I am so like, I'm listening to

576
00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:44,560
Speaker 1: this and I'm thinking, like about our current tiny, little,

577
00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:47,720
Speaker 1: you know, day to day struggles, and I'm thinking, instead

578
00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:50,040
Speaker 1: of an ideal day fifteen years from now, I need

579
00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:51,839
Speaker 1: to sit my children down and talk about what an

580
00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:55,080
Speaker 1: ideal morning could look like fifteen days from now, and

581
00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:58,000
Speaker 1: then get my stakeholders to weigh in on, you know,

582
00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:01,640
Speaker 1: what they feel might be good solutions, and maybe they

583
00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:03,719
Speaker 1: can come up with some experiments, just like you talked

584
00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:05,759
Speaker 1: about with the employees, of how that might benefit them

585
00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:08,640
Speaker 1: and benefit me. And I totally see how this can work.

586
00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:10,480
Speaker 1: And one of this that's a great idea, Sarah, I

587
00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:13,759
Speaker 1: hadn't thought of that. Yeah, with your permission, But one

588
00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:16,000
Speaker 1: of the things you know, Stu does talk about is

589
00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:19,520
Speaker 1: this idea of little experiments right that you know they're

590
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:23,239
Speaker 1: you're as a change agent, as a leader. You, I mean,

591
00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:25,440
Speaker 1: you are trying to direct toward this big future, but

592
00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:27,960
Speaker 1: you need to make little bets along the way and

593
00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:31,319
Speaker 1: see what works and see what doesn't. So you know,

594
00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:33,759
Speaker 1: what are some of those areas to try these little

595
00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:36,040
Speaker 1: experiments in. I mean, I know you've talked about generating

596
00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:39,080
Speaker 1: quality time, like coordinating logistics. I'm curious some of the

597
00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:43,240
Speaker 1: little experiments you've you've seen works. We're kind of getting

598
00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:47,600
Speaker 1: a little practical here. Well. One of the magical things

599
00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:53,560
Speaker 1: about this work with with parents parenting partnerships is once

600
00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:56,239
Speaker 1: they go through the process of stepping back, I mean,

601
00:35:56,239 --> 00:35:58,440
Speaker 1: this is the hard part is to find the space

602
00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:02,080
Speaker 1: and realize, okay, for me to grow as my family

603
00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:07,200
Speaker 1: as a leader, which doesn't mean being a micromanaging jerk

604
00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:09,239
Speaker 1: like the person you have to deal with every day

605
00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:12,560
Speaker 1: in the office. It's being the kind of inspiring leader

606
00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:16,120
Speaker 1: who you want to be. Right. That's where some people,

607
00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:18,680
Speaker 1: if I could just digress on this for a moment,

608
00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:21,840
Speaker 1: they resist the idea of thinking themselves as leaders because

609
00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:23,920
Speaker 1: it makes it seem like I'm not going to be

610
00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:27,120
Speaker 1: like that person at the office and be a demanding

611
00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:32,480
Speaker 1: command and control animal with my kids. That's totally inappropriate. Well,

612
00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:34,960
Speaker 1: of course, yeah, you don't want to be that person.

613
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:38,480
Speaker 1: You want to be an inspiring leader who actually teaches kids'

614
00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:41,360
Speaker 1: values and helps to liberate them to become the people

615
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:43,560
Speaker 1: they want to become, which is what good leaders do.

616
00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:46,920
Speaker 1: What do people come up with? Well, everyone comes up

617
00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:49,680
Speaker 1: with something that is unique and distinctive to their situation.

618
00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:53,400
Speaker 1: But we have found there are common kinds of experiments

619
00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:56,120
Speaker 1: that people do. And yes, experiment is a key idea

620
00:36:56,160 --> 00:37:00,399
Speaker 1: because small is big. Small steps is how you get there.

621
00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:03,640
Speaker 1: You can't just take the giant leap up the mountain.

622
00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:05,560
Speaker 1: You have to go one step at a time, right,

623
00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:09,240
Speaker 1: and you know, the smart way to create change small

624
00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:13,440
Speaker 1: steps that allow you to adjust, adjust, adjust, So when

625
00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:16,799
Speaker 1: people go through the process of thinking what's most important,

626
00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:19,200
Speaker 1: who's most important, what do they need? They come up

627
00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:22,399
Speaker 1: with all kinds of things that are designed to fit

628
00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:27,840
Speaker 1: their situation. But common are quality time, which is real

629
00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:30,400
Speaker 1: and it matters. And you know, we bring in some

630
00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:33,759
Speaker 1: of the research that shows how it's not about quantity

631
00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:38,280
Speaker 1: rather it really is about quality. So many people realize, oh,

632
00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:41,480
Speaker 1: we need to find a way to shut out the

633
00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:43,759
Speaker 1: digital stream for some period of time so that we

634
00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:47,200
Speaker 1: can connect as human beings without being mediated, you know,

635
00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:51,839
Speaker 1: through the internet, through digital tools. So let's find ways

636
00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:55,320
Speaker 1: of doing that and they will experience. I mean, everybody

637
00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:56,880
Speaker 1: comes up with a different way of doing it, but

638
00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:01,920
Speaker 1: they will. For example, one person who we write about

639
00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:08,240
Speaker 1: in the book, the father. This is a heterosexual married couple,

640
00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:12,680
Speaker 1: which is obviously not the only form of parenting partnership.

641
00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:16,279
Speaker 1: But he worked at the Bureau of Land Management and

642
00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:19,520
Speaker 1: one of his core values was caring for the earth,

643
00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:22,239
Speaker 1: and he wanted to teach his kids. He wanted to

644
00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:24,959
Speaker 1: make sure that these kids knew that all the time,

645
00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:27,000
Speaker 1: that that was something that they needed to focus on.

646
00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:29,719
Speaker 1: And so they came up with an experiment that was

647
00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:33,480
Speaker 1: designed to help to teach their kids, but also to

648
00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:36,360
Speaker 1: get out into the community and to express, you know,

649
00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:38,520
Speaker 1: the values that he represents at work and to help

650
00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:40,960
Speaker 1: them to see what he did and why it was important.

651
00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:44,440
Speaker 1: So they did a hike and pick experiment where they

652
00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:47,600
Speaker 1: each weekend, you know, for a month, they'd go out

653
00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:51,720
Speaker 1: to their community and they bring trash bags and gloves

654
00:38:51,719 --> 00:38:55,920
Speaker 1: and they cleaned up their neighborhood. Simple, but it had

655
00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:58,359
Speaker 1: all kinds of ripple effects for both him and his

656
00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:01,640
Speaker 1: partner in terms of how they thought about themselves a

657
00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:04,080
Speaker 1: lot about their kids and how that affected their work.

658
00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:08,760
Speaker 1: But then there were bigger pieces of work that people

659
00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:12,920
Speaker 1: undertook depending on their situation. One couple had a child

660
00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:20,040
Speaker 1: with a rare genetic disorder and the mom was and

661
00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:25,160
Speaker 1: their in laws lived with them. Her parents lived with

662
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:28,839
Speaker 1: them to help care for their child. But she was

663
00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:34,040
Speaker 1: always reluctant to talk about about this challenge that she has,

664
00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:35,880
Speaker 1: the special challenge that she has in her life with

665
00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:39,680
Speaker 1: her work colleagues. But she decided after doing this initial

666
00:39:39,719 --> 00:39:42,279
Speaker 1: work of thinking through what's important to me? What am

667
00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:44,960
Speaker 1: I trying to get done? What if people really expected me?

668
00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:48,520
Speaker 1: She realized that she could be more open about the

669
00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:52,080
Speaker 1: challenges that she faced and also to try to make

670
00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:55,520
Speaker 1: an impact on the research that was being done in

671
00:39:55,560 --> 00:40:00,200
Speaker 1: this rare disease arena. And so she and her has

672
00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:06,480
Speaker 1: been They began a fundraiser for this disease and reaching

673
00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:10,920
Speaker 1: out to all sectors of their network, and as a

674
00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:14,880
Speaker 1: result of that, she was actually concerned about whether she

675
00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:17,600
Speaker 1: was going to make the next level promotion, but her boss,

676
00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:22,799
Speaker 1: in seeing her taking the lead in doing this fundraising initiative,

677
00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:27,439
Speaker 1: realized that she had. She was demonstrating real leadership there,

678
00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:31,359
Speaker 1: and it changed his perception of her and made her

679
00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:34,800
Speaker 1: in his eyes, a more valued asset to their business.

680
00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:38,680
Speaker 1: That's one of my favorite examples in the book. But

681
00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:42,840
Speaker 1: you could see there's a wide range of things that

682
00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:47,960
Speaker 1: people do. Another common one is simply coordinating logistics, you know,

683
00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:53,359
Speaker 1: sharing calendars. Some people don't do that, surprisingly and when

684
00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:56,600
Speaker 1: they do, they realize it's so much easier if you

685
00:40:56,719 --> 00:41:01,880
Speaker 1: use basic you know, project management skills to coordinate who's

686
00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:04,400
Speaker 1: doing what when, et cetera. But that can be as

687
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:10,720
Speaker 1: simple as meeting over the weekend or at some point

688
00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:14,640
Speaker 1: on a regular basis to simply talk about what are

689
00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:16,880
Speaker 1: you doing this week that's going to be hard for

690
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:20,560
Speaker 1: you that you need some help with, and everyone around

691
00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:22,680
Speaker 1: the circle does that. So that that's another kind of

692
00:41:22,719 --> 00:41:27,160
Speaker 1: experiment that people have done, and that is a simple

693
00:41:27,239 --> 00:41:29,960
Speaker 1: but very powerful way to bring the family together to

694
00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:33,000
Speaker 1: demonstrate that, you know the value of we help each other,

695
00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:35,200
Speaker 1: We love each other. We're here to support each other

696
00:41:35,960 --> 00:41:39,120
Speaker 1: and to get real help and to know more about

697
00:41:39,160 --> 00:41:42,000
Speaker 1: the kinds of challenges that we're each facing. So those

698
00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:44,560
Speaker 1: are some examples. There's lots more, and again the fun

699
00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:47,680
Speaker 1: part is you come up with your own Yeah, exactly. Well,

700
00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:50,800
Speaker 1: so this is all great and great ideas. We always

701
00:41:50,840 --> 00:41:52,560
Speaker 1: like to end our interviews with what we call our

702
00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:56,440
Speaker 1: love of the week, which is something that is you know,

703
00:41:56,960 --> 00:41:59,759
Speaker 1: we see is really cool. It's been fun in our

704
00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:02,959
Speaker 1: lives lives this this week, and you know you've given

705
00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:04,680
Speaker 1: us a lot of deep fodder that this can be

706
00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:08,359
Speaker 1: light and fluffy if you want, we can go first

707
00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:11,359
Speaker 1: as well to let you take a minute to think

708
00:42:11,400 --> 00:42:16,720
Speaker 1: about it. So, Sarah, what have you been enjoying this week? Yeah, well,

709
00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:19,640
Speaker 1: you know, discussing logistics and division of labor. My husband

710
00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:21,719
Speaker 1: and I have a fairly hard line. I do the

711
00:42:21,719 --> 00:42:24,279
Speaker 1: birthday parties most of all of it, actually, but he

712
00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:26,520
Speaker 1: is in charge of the presence and he's agreed to this,

713
00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:28,520
Speaker 1: so I liked not having to worry about that at all.

714
00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:31,799
Speaker 1: He gave our six year old a lovely shiny skateboard

715
00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:34,040
Speaker 1: this morning. But my love of the week actually goes

716
00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:36,600
Speaker 1: to Whole Foods Catering because you can order it online

717
00:42:36,640 --> 00:42:38,960
Speaker 1: for parties. They do cakes as well, and it's like

718
00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:44,239
Speaker 1: the world's easiest thing. And yeah, Whole Foods Catering for

719
00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:48,239
Speaker 1: birthday parties we've been doing. I could do my love

720
00:42:48,239 --> 00:42:51,480
Speaker 1: of the week ice cream cake for birthdays, but we

721
00:42:51,520 --> 00:42:56,839
Speaker 1: actually had a fun combo family, multi generational thing about

722
00:42:56,880 --> 00:42:59,880
Speaker 1: a week ago that my parents have recently moved out

723
00:42:59,880 --> 00:43:02,760
Speaker 1: to the East Coast to be closer to my brothers

724
00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:06,399
Speaker 1: than me, and so my father and mother were able

725
00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:10,320
Speaker 1: to come for our daughter's school play, which was exciting,

726
00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:14,160
Speaker 1: and then we celebrated my dad's birthday afterwards with ice

727
00:43:14,200 --> 00:43:16,200
Speaker 1: cream cake. So ice cream cake is my love of

728
00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:18,080
Speaker 1: the week. It's just, you know, I don't know. Ice

729
00:43:18,160 --> 00:43:20,359
Speaker 1: cream is good and it's the good part of cake

730
00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:22,719
Speaker 1: and ice cream, but without the parts that I don't like.

731
00:43:22,840 --> 00:43:26,719
Speaker 1: So that's that's what I'd say, is my love of

732
00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:30,640
Speaker 1: the week. Stu. How about you? Oh my gosh, Well,

733
00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:33,720
Speaker 1: this is gonna seem strange to you, and it's totally

734
00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:36,840
Speaker 1: different because I'm in such a different, you know, stage

735
00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:45,600
Speaker 1: of life. But my father died two weeks ago and

736
00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:47,840
Speaker 1: I've just been thinking about him, you know, ever since,

737
00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:53,000
Speaker 1: of course, and the day of his funeral was he

738
00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:57,760
Speaker 1: was about to be ninety, was one of the greatest

739
00:43:57,840 --> 00:44:02,560
Speaker 1: days of my life, as and the days that followed,

740
00:44:02,640 --> 00:44:05,719
Speaker 1: you know, the shock of that loss, the void that

741
00:44:05,719 --> 00:44:09,920
Speaker 1: that creates. But when your heart is just wide open

742
00:44:10,040 --> 00:44:12,680
Speaker 1: and there's this big hole there and you start to

743
00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:17,040
Speaker 1: try to fill it with who he was and what

744
00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:21,080
Speaker 1: he meant and how he continues to, you know, inhabit

745
00:44:21,239 --> 00:44:23,719
Speaker 1: every fiber of my being and what does that mean

746
00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:25,920
Speaker 1: for me? And what does it mean for me in

747
00:44:26,040 --> 00:44:30,239
Speaker 1: terms of my role as a father. Being able to

748
00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:34,040
Speaker 1: dig really deep into that whole set of questions has

749
00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:40,719
Speaker 1: been I wouldn't say joyful, of course, quite the opposite,

750
00:44:41,120 --> 00:44:48,400
Speaker 1: but so rich in helping me to understand his life,

751
00:44:48,680 --> 00:44:53,160
Speaker 1: his legacy, and what that means for my life. It's

752
00:44:53,160 --> 00:44:56,640
Speaker 1: really changed how I think about myself and the world.

753
00:44:57,280 --> 00:45:04,719
Speaker 1: By focusing this concentrated attention, especially as reflected in the

754
00:45:04,760 --> 00:45:07,520
Speaker 1: social mirror around me, of you know, the people who

755
00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:11,719
Speaker 1: were there and continue to be, you know, telling me

756
00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:16,000
Speaker 1: about how he affected them, It's really changed how I

757
00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:20,120
Speaker 1: see things, and that has been a deep, deep love

758
00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:23,279
Speaker 1: for these last two weeks. That's wonderful. I mean, is

759
00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:27,000
Speaker 1: it's good to have a long life well lived and

760
00:45:27,040 --> 00:45:29,800
Speaker 1: then to have a chance to celebrate that, and obviously

761
00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:33,360
Speaker 1: there's the sadness involved in it, but just seeing what

762
00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:36,839
Speaker 1: he created over his long life and then how that

763
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:40,560
Speaker 1: can reflect on you. I'm sure that's incredibly profound. Well, Stuart,

764
00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:43,640
Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us. I hope everyone

765
00:45:43,640 --> 00:45:46,040
Speaker 1: will pick up their new book. Your new book with

766
00:45:46,080 --> 00:45:50,239
Speaker 1: alysso westering parents who lead lots of great exercises and

767
00:45:50,280 --> 00:45:53,319
Speaker 1: there are many practical ones, as Stu is mentioning that

768
00:45:53,360 --> 00:45:56,160
Speaker 1: you can do with your partner, with your children to

769
00:45:56,239 --> 00:45:58,600
Speaker 1: figure out how you have this shared vision and where

770
00:45:58,640 --> 00:46:00,799
Speaker 1: you want to go and the practice ways to get there.

771
00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:03,439
Speaker 1: So thank you so much for joining us. Thank you, Stu,

772
00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:07,120
Speaker 1: Thanks so much. It's been a real pleasure. Well, that

773
00:46:07,320 --> 00:46:10,319
Speaker 1: was exciting talking to Stu. Always great to speak with

774
00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:14,879
Speaker 1: him again. So our listener question this week is a

775
00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:20,080
Speaker 1: sticky situation that this one came into. Sarah. This listener

776
00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:22,759
Speaker 1: writes that they moved into their new district about a

777
00:46:22,880 --> 00:46:24,719
Speaker 1: year and a half ago. It's highly rated, a lot

778
00:46:24,760 --> 00:46:28,520
Speaker 1: of parental involvement. Been so happy with this community. But

779
00:46:28,640 --> 00:46:30,400
Speaker 1: the one sticking point for her is she has been

780
00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:33,680
Speaker 1: unable to become really involved with the PTA because all

781
00:46:33,719 --> 00:46:37,600
Speaker 1: their meetings, including the general ones, not just specialty committees

782
00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:40,360
Speaker 1: or things like that, take place midday on a weekday

783
00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:43,160
Speaker 1: morning She says, I find this really puzzling because although

784
00:46:43,160 --> 00:46:46,000
Speaker 1: we do have a decent population of stay at home parents,

785
00:46:46,040 --> 00:46:48,799
Speaker 1: of the couples that I've met, most do both work

786
00:46:48,840 --> 00:46:51,520
Speaker 1: outside the home. I've seen this issue brought up by

787
00:46:51,520 --> 00:46:53,840
Speaker 1: others on social media, and the board of the PTA,

788
00:46:54,239 --> 00:46:57,680
Speaker 1: which does consist one hundred percent of women who either

789
00:46:57,800 --> 00:47:00,000
Speaker 1: are stay at home parents or don't work traditional jobs,

790
00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:03,120
Speaker 1: are very sensitive about this. They say these meetings work

791
00:47:03,160 --> 00:47:05,759
Speaker 1: for them because then they don't need to arrange childcare.

792
00:47:06,440 --> 00:47:08,759
Speaker 1: She says, I don't know how receptive our school administration

793
00:47:08,800 --> 00:47:11,720
Speaker 1: would be to request for changing this, because the PTA

794
00:47:11,840 --> 00:47:15,680
Speaker 1: does a lot for the school, and she says she'd

795
00:47:15,719 --> 00:47:19,960
Speaker 1: like to start a maybe petition or something, but she

796
00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:23,080
Speaker 1: doesn't want to start some sort of mommy war controversy.

797
00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:26,080
Speaker 1: The reason this is particularly sticky for her, she says,

798
00:47:26,080 --> 00:47:27,920
Speaker 1: I've made the decision to stay in a career that

799
00:47:27,960 --> 00:47:29,919
Speaker 1: gives me a lot of flexibility just so I can

800
00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:32,880
Speaker 1: be involved with my kids during the elementary school years.

801
00:47:33,040 --> 00:47:35,160
Speaker 1: But I feel like I'm not getting that opportunity because

802
00:47:35,200 --> 00:47:38,759
Speaker 1: I can't make Thursdays at ten am work. So, Sarah,

803
00:47:38,800 --> 00:47:42,320
Speaker 1: what do you think, Well, it's funny my first reaction

804
00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:44,720
Speaker 1: to this was like, has this person been to a meeting,

805
00:47:44,960 --> 00:47:51,480
Speaker 1: because I've been to like one meeting, and to be fair,

806
00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:53,759
Speaker 1: I went to like the preschool PTA meeting, so maybe

807
00:47:53,760 --> 00:47:56,640
Speaker 1: it's different at the elementary school PTA, which also holds

808
00:47:56,640 --> 00:48:00,640
Speaker 1: its meetings midday, so I've never gone. But I mean,

809
00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:02,919
Speaker 1: you have to find out what actually happens at these

810
00:48:02,920 --> 00:48:05,160
Speaker 1: meetings and whether this is worth the fight or not.

811
00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:06,960
Speaker 1: Because the one meeting I went to, I felt like

812
00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:09,120
Speaker 1: it was more of an excuse for the women to

813
00:48:09,160 --> 00:48:11,600
Speaker 1: have something to do and get together. And I say

814
00:48:11,600 --> 00:48:13,560
Speaker 1: women because there were no men there. And then they

815
00:48:13,560 --> 00:48:16,040
Speaker 1: spent this whole time for severing and over planning one

816
00:48:16,040 --> 00:48:19,680
Speaker 1: event and really, like you know, me being there, I

817
00:48:19,680 --> 00:48:21,759
Speaker 1: don't know, I guess, And it's not fair because this

818
00:48:21,880 --> 00:48:24,280
Speaker 1: was just one experience and maybe all meetings are different,

819
00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:28,400
Speaker 1: but I guess there are other ways to get involved.

820
00:48:28,440 --> 00:48:31,080
Speaker 1: So you're going to have to decide how hard you

821
00:48:31,160 --> 00:48:33,719
Speaker 1: want to fight on this issue. Some practical things I

822
00:48:33,760 --> 00:48:36,359
Speaker 1: thought of were like, maybe you could ask that there

823
00:48:36,360 --> 00:48:39,000
Speaker 1: would be a digest or notes sent out after each meeting,

824
00:48:39,120 --> 00:48:41,600
Speaker 1: so you can find out exactly what was discussed, or

825
00:48:41,680 --> 00:48:44,840
Speaker 1: perhaps you can use that to volunteer first specific events

826
00:48:44,840 --> 00:48:47,080
Speaker 1: that interest you. For example, maybe you'd want to take

827
00:48:47,120 --> 00:48:49,520
Speaker 1: over a career day or one specific fundraiser, and it

828
00:48:49,520 --> 00:48:52,880
Speaker 1: wouldn't necessarily be needed for you to attend midday meetings

829
00:48:52,920 --> 00:48:55,960
Speaker 1: in order to really do that. On the other hand,

830
00:48:56,239 --> 00:48:58,400
Speaker 1: I felt like it also wouldn't be crazy they get

831
00:48:58,440 --> 00:49:01,680
Speaker 1: a group of working parents that would include bothers to

832
00:49:01,760 --> 00:49:05,360
Speaker 1: sign a group letter, perhaps asking for alternating meetings in

833
00:49:05,400 --> 00:49:08,120
Speaker 1: the evening or a non traditional worktime. And my third

834
00:49:08,160 --> 00:49:10,440
Speaker 1: option was maybe they could just arrange like a WebEx

835
00:49:10,520 --> 00:49:13,440
Speaker 1: or call in option and you could just call in

836
00:49:13,480 --> 00:49:17,120
Speaker 1: from work. Obviously, not every workplace is flexible enough to

837
00:49:17,160 --> 00:49:20,680
Speaker 1: allow that, but some are, and from a technological standpoint,

838
00:49:20,680 --> 00:49:23,720
Speaker 1: it shouldn't be that hard to arrange this day and age. Yeah,

839
00:49:23,719 --> 00:49:26,840
Speaker 1: definitely a call in or WebEx option could could be great.

840
00:49:27,440 --> 00:49:30,799
Speaker 1: I would also say there are probably volunteer opportunities that

841
00:49:30,960 --> 00:49:34,000
Speaker 1: don't involve going to those meetings. I mean, I found

842
00:49:34,200 --> 00:49:37,320
Speaker 1: that I could be a room parent at our elementary

843
00:49:37,320 --> 00:49:42,479
Speaker 1: school by committing to basically four days during the year

844
00:49:42,600 --> 00:49:44,799
Speaker 1: that I had some availability during the day. So if

845
00:49:44,840 --> 00:49:46,360
Speaker 1: I had a traditional job, I would have taken a

846
00:49:46,400 --> 00:49:49,520
Speaker 1: half day, so I could come in and run the parties,

847
00:49:49,560 --> 00:49:51,840
Speaker 1: which is basically what it required, and then some support

848
00:49:51,840 --> 00:49:54,600
Speaker 1: of the teacher behind the scenes. But that was more

849
00:49:54,600 --> 00:49:58,040
Speaker 1: flexible about when that happened, so that might be an option.

850
00:49:58,520 --> 00:50:02,200
Speaker 1: I would also say that you if you're going to

851
00:50:02,239 --> 00:50:05,840
Speaker 1: suggest moving the times, you could maybe split the difference.

852
00:50:06,520 --> 00:50:09,120
Speaker 1: So our elementary school starts at nine o'clock and you

853
00:50:09,120 --> 00:50:11,120
Speaker 1: can drop off at eight forty five. I don't know

854
00:50:11,120 --> 00:50:14,480
Speaker 1: what this listener's timing is, but if that was the

855
00:50:14,520 --> 00:50:17,279
Speaker 1: case for them, maybe you could start the meetings at

856
00:50:17,320 --> 00:50:19,319
Speaker 1: eight forty five, so the people who were lying on

857
00:50:19,360 --> 00:50:22,640
Speaker 1: the school for their childcare could start also at eight

858
00:50:22,719 --> 00:50:25,319
Speaker 1: forty five. And you know, this doesn't work if you

859
00:50:25,360 --> 00:50:27,640
Speaker 1: have to be absolutely in the office at eight am

860
00:50:27,680 --> 00:50:30,120
Speaker 1: every day, But if you are in a position where

861
00:50:30,160 --> 00:50:31,879
Speaker 1: you have some sort of flexibility where you could come

862
00:50:31,880 --> 00:50:33,759
Speaker 1: at eight forty five to nine forty five, go into

863
00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:35,719
Speaker 1: work a little bit later, and so then it's not

864
00:50:35,760 --> 00:50:37,920
Speaker 1: this sort of mid day thing where you'd have to

865
00:50:37,960 --> 00:50:39,799
Speaker 1: start the day and not or you have to take

866
00:50:39,840 --> 00:50:41,919
Speaker 1: a full you know, half day or the day off

867
00:50:41,920 --> 00:50:44,839
Speaker 1: in order to go. So that might be a way

868
00:50:44,880 --> 00:50:47,719
Speaker 1: to split the difference and have it be convenient for

869
00:50:48,080 --> 00:50:49,759
Speaker 1: the people who are doing it, which I totally get.

870
00:50:49,800 --> 00:50:52,160
Speaker 1: Like not having to arrange childcare is huge if you

871
00:50:52,200 --> 00:50:53,759
Speaker 1: are a stay at home parent, because you probably don't

872
00:50:53,840 --> 00:50:57,560
Speaker 1: have regular childcare that you can then you know, send

873
00:50:57,600 --> 00:51:01,080
Speaker 1: your kids to. But it would be help for the

874
00:51:01,080 --> 00:51:05,319
Speaker 1: people who wouldn't need to totally shift their work hours

875
00:51:05,320 --> 00:51:08,640
Speaker 1: in order to do this. So just an idea. All right, Well,

876
00:51:08,640 --> 00:51:10,920
Speaker 1: this has been best of both worlds. We've been talking

877
00:51:11,000 --> 00:51:13,840
Speaker 1: to Stuart Friedman about parents who lead, and we'll be

878
00:51:13,880 --> 00:51:15,959
Speaker 1: back next week with more on making work and life

879
00:51:16,040 --> 00:51:21,040
Speaker 1: fit together. Thanks for listening. You can find me Sarah

880
00:51:21,200 --> 00:51:25,000
Speaker 1: at the shoebox dot com or at the Underscore Shoebox

881
00:51:25,080 --> 00:51:28,839
Speaker 1: on Instagram, and you can find me Laura at Laura

882
00:51:28,960 --> 00:51:32,160
Speaker 1: vandercam dot com. This has been the best of both

883
00:51:32,200 --> 00:51:35,719
Speaker 1: worlds podcasts. Please join us next time for more on

884
00:51:35,840 --> 00:51:37,760
Speaker 1: making work and life work together.