Speaker 1: Kushkin.
Speaker 2: Most people think to feel more loved, I need to
Speaker 2: change myself. I need to make myself more lovable, or
Speaker 2: I need to change the other person. I need to
Speaker 2: convince them to love me more. But it's actually not
Speaker 2: the right approach.
Speaker 1: Most of us wouldn't mind feeling a bit more loved
Speaker 1: and at least one of our relationships. Psychology professor Sonya
Speaker 1: Lubermirski is here to help. Drawing on decades of research,
Speaker 1: her new book puts the pieces together on how best
Speaker 1: to do this.
Speaker 2: You don't have to change yourself, you don't have to
Speaker 2: change the other person. You just have to change the conversation.
Speaker 1: On today's show by feeling more loved may be easier
Speaker 1: than you think. I'm Maya Shunker, a scientist who studies
Speaker 1: human behavior, and this is a slight change of plans,
Speaker 1: a show about who we are and who we become
Speaker 1: in the face of a big change. Sonya is a
Speaker 1: happiness scientist at UC Riverside. Her latest book, How to
Speaker 1: Feel Loved, is co written with relationship scientist Harry Reese.
Speaker 1: They define feeling loved as the experience of being truly
Speaker 1: seen and validated for who you are, which can come
Speaker 1: from any relationship, not just romantic ones. Sonya and I
Speaker 1: talked about how even small shifts in the way two
Speaker 1: people approach a conversation can have a transformative impact on
Speaker 1: how loved they each feel over time. Whether you want
Speaker 1: to feel more loved in your life, or you want
Speaker 1: to make someone else feel more loved, this episode is
Speaker 1: for you. I began by asking Sonia how she got
Speaker 1: interested in this work in the first place.
Speaker 2: I've been happiness scientists for thirty six and a half
Speaker 2: years now, and for most of those years, my lab
Speaker 2: and I have been doing what are called happiness interventions,
Speaker 2: which are basically clinical trials, but instead of testing a
Speaker 2: new vaccine, we're testing a happiness practice.
Speaker 3: So we randomly assign people.
Speaker 2: To write gratitude letters, or to count their blessings, or
Speaker 2: to do acts of kindness for others. And then, a
Speaker 2: number of years ago I realized that almost all of
Speaker 2: the interventions that work to make us happier, the reason
Speaker 2: they work is they make us feel more connected to
Speaker 2: and loved by others.
Speaker 3: Almost all of them.
Speaker 2: You can imagine, like, I don't know, if you're meditating
Speaker 2: or running on the beach, maybe it's not about feeling
Speaker 2: loved by others, although even those things often have to
Speaker 2: do with connection. But when I write a gratitude letter
Speaker 2: to my mom, it makes me feel more loved by her.
Speaker 2: When I do an act of kindness for my best friend,
Speaker 2: it makes me feel more loved or connected or close, sir.
Speaker 2: So that's why, after all these years, my latest book
Speaker 2: is called How to Feel Loved, because feeling loved is
Speaker 2: really the key to happiness, which I know sounds like
Speaker 2: a cliche, but when you think about it, almost all
Speaker 2: big ideas when you distill them, sound like cliches.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I mean it feels so intuitively true to
Speaker 1: me to hear that. How did it feel like when you,
Speaker 1: sonia feel very loved by someone? How does it make
Speaker 1: you feel in your body? How would you describe that?
Speaker 2: We all have kind of a go to negative emotion, right,
Speaker 2: whether it's anger or anxiety or sadness. For me is anxiety.
Speaker 2: That's sort of my most common negative emotions. And when
Speaker 2: I feel really loved, I think that anxiety really goes
Speaker 2: down or is really like gone. It's like sort of
Speaker 2: this feeling of safety, of warmth. They're just kind of
Speaker 2: like just full of just something wonderful. It's like a
Speaker 2: cup of love.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Oh, I love that.
Speaker 1: You make a distinction early on in the book that
Speaker 1: I found super helpful as a reader, which is a
Speaker 1: distinction between being loved and feeling loved. Tell me more
Speaker 1: about the difference between those two.
Speaker 2: It was kind of a very important part of our book.
Speaker 2: An important starting point is that a lot of people
Speaker 2: are loved, but they don't feel loved. And Harry and
Speaker 2: I actually did a survey expressly for our book where
Speaker 2: we found that seventy percent reported wanting to feel more
Speaker 2: loved and at least one relationship in their lives, and
Speaker 2: forty percent said they wish they were they felt more
Speaker 2: loved by their romantic partner. I actually think those numbers
Speaker 2: are an understatement. I think most of us could identify
Speaker 2: at least one relationship or at least one point in
Speaker 2: time where we would like to feel more loved.
Speaker 1: And interestingly, those moments weren't always when we lacked people
Speaker 1: who've loved us. They might have had much more to
Speaker 1: do with our internal state.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so you can be loved, but for some reason,
Speaker 2: I think there's many reasons that it's somehow not getting internalized.
Speaker 2: Kind of like we all know people who are beautiful,
Speaker 2: but they don't feel beautiful. We know people who are smart,
Speaker 2: but they don't think they're smart. Right, So you can
Speaker 2: be loved and not feel loved.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I interviewed the former Surgeon General Vivig Morphy, who I
Speaker 1: know you also reference in your book about loneliness, and
Speaker 1: he also draws a similar distinction. Right, loneliness is a
Speaker 1: state of mind. You can be an isolation and not
Speaker 1: feel lonely at all. Likewise, you can be surrounded by
Speaker 1: your friends and still feel acute loneliness.
Speaker 2: Right, Absolutely, and we actually make I think moments of
Speaker 2: not feeling loved and moments of feeling lonely are very
Speaker 2: tightly linked. They're not exactly the same thing, but I
Speaker 2: think they're very very linked. When you don't feel loved,
Speaker 2: you feel lonely, or you feel like you don't belong.
Speaker 2: You can be surrounded by people and friends and family
Speaker 2: and still not feel loved.
Speaker 1: You know. I think we all intuitively understand why feeling
Speaker 1: loved is important, and that's because it just feels so
Speaker 1: damn good to feel loved, and it feels pretty bad
Speaker 1: to lack that love. From a biological perspective, though, what
Speaker 1: happens when we don't feel What are the consequences? There
Speaker 1: are so many challenges in the world right now that
Speaker 1: we could be focusing our energy on, and it's easy
Speaker 1: to overlook this feeling of being loved. It's easy to think, oh,
Speaker 1: that's a nice to have, that's a you know, cherry
Speaker 1: on top. It can't possibly be my priority. And I
Speaker 1: think you would argue that's not true.
Speaker 2: It feels like a luxury, right, a luxury luxury exactly,
Speaker 2: it's absolutely not a luxury because there's just so many
Speaker 2: kind of ripple effects that might happen if you don't
Speaker 2: feel loved. So I'm not a neuroscientist, but the brains
Speaker 2: that people who don't feel loved look differently from the
Speaker 2: brains who do. There's all kinds of adverse health effects
Speaker 2: if you don't feel loved. It's very similar actually to
Speaker 2: the research on un loneliness.
Speaker 1: What about the benefits of feeling loved? What well being
Speaker 1: outcomes do we tend to see for those folks.
Speaker 2: My colleagues and I have written papers on what happens
Speaker 2: when you're happier, and like, basically people who feel loved,
Speaker 2: who are happier, they're more successful in life. Right, They're healthier,
Speaker 2: their relationships are stronger, even like, they're even more successful
Speaker 2: in their careers. So it leads again to lots and
Speaker 2: lots of verbal effects because you know, as I said that,
Speaker 2: the reason I wrote this book is because I realized
Speaker 2: that feeling loved is the key to happiness, and happiness
Speaker 2: is related to all kinds of good things.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: Happier people are more creative, they're more productive at work,
Speaker 2: they have stronger friendships, They're more likely to find someone
Speaker 2: who wants to marry them, they have less pain, they
Speaker 2: their immune systems are stronger, they recover faster from surgery.
Speaker 2: So all kinds of sort of benefits a crew to
Speaker 2: people who feel loved and who are happier as a result.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and one finding I thought was so relevant for
Speaker 1: the slight change of Plans audience is that feeling love
Speaker 1: can make you more resilient by reducing stress and helping
Speaker 1: you cope better with challenges.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, It's like, yeah, you can think of it as
Speaker 3: a resource.
Speaker 2: Right, It's like, when your cup of love is full,
Speaker 2: you're able to take on challenges when there's conflict, right,
Speaker 2: Like you're able to sort of handle it better.
Speaker 3: So yeah.
Speaker 1: But one of the findings that resonated a lot with
Speaker 1: me but might be somewhat surprising, is that many experiences
Speaker 1: of feeling loved occurred not in response to grand gestures,
Speaker 1: but two smaller, more everyday moments. What do you think
Speaker 1: is at play there? Why do you think we respond
Speaker 1: more to those every day smaller like oh, here's your
Speaker 1: favorite cup of coffee or right.
Speaker 2: What we found is that when you feel like someone
Speaker 2: really gets you, they realize you want that cup of
Speaker 2: coffee before you even asked for it, or before maybe
Speaker 2: you even realize you need it. It's very special. It's
Speaker 2: that those are the moments that you feel really loved.
Speaker 2: And it's interesting there's a parallel with happiness research, right,
Speaker 2: because happiness is also the biggest contributors to happiness.
Speaker 3: Aren't those big moments like.
Speaker 2: Yes, it's great to graduate from college or to get married,
Speaker 2: you know, to have or like suddenly you know, win
Speaker 2: the lottery, right, But it's really it's really the everyday
Speaker 2: moments that add up that aggregate to make you a
Speaker 2: happier person. And it's interesting that that there's that parallel
Speaker 2: with feeling loved as well as those like everyday moments
Speaker 2: where you feel understood, you feel valued, you feel cared for,
Speaker 2: you feel loved.
Speaker 1: I've heard you challenge the popular refrain that we must
Speaker 1: learn to love ourselves first before we can feel loved
Speaker 1: by others. So I know so many people who will
Speaker 1: say things like, well, I don't even want to start
Speaker 1: dating until I fully figured myself out right, until I
Speaker 1: feel one hundred percent comfortable with who I am. But
Speaker 1: you say, no, it's actually there's a bi directional relationship
Speaker 1: between feeling love for oneself and then feeling love by others,
Speaker 1: and they can lead to this virtuous cycle if you're
Speaker 1: engaging in these pursuits in parallel. So tell me a
Speaker 1: bit more about that.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, I think that's such an important point, and
Speaker 2: I think I actually heard it first. I have to
Speaker 2: give credit from Esther Perell. I think she's actually I
Speaker 2: remember hearing she's one of my role models. In an interview,
Speaker 2: she was like, no, of course, it goes in both directions, Like, yes,
Speaker 2: when I love myself more, I think there is a
Speaker 2: lot that can happen that will make it easier for
Speaker 2: me to feel loved by others. But on the other hand,
Speaker 2: we learn to love ourselves in the context of relationships,
Speaker 2: you know. So, so it's also being in relationships that
Speaker 2: help us grow and love ourselves more so, it's it's
Speaker 2: a yeah, it's a biasing you said, it's a bi
Speaker 2: directional relationship. On the other hand, we actually spend quite
Speaker 2: a bit of time in our book talking about self
Speaker 2: love and self compassion and the importance of that, because
Speaker 2: if you don't love yourself, it is going to be
Speaker 2: a little bit hard. For example, if I don't truly
Speaker 2: love myself and you may are showing love to me,
Speaker 2: maybe I won't. I won't trust it, you know, maybe
Speaker 2: like I'll yeah, I'll be suspicious of it, you know,
Speaker 2: I won't find its genuine. So if I love myself,
Speaker 2: it's going to be easier for me to receive love
Speaker 2: from others. So of course there's truth to that, yes,
Speaker 2: but it doesn't only go in that one direction.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think this is so important to emphasize
Speaker 1: because one, it's elusive to ever feel like you've checked
Speaker 1: the box on self love. And so I don't want
Speaker 1: people waiting on implementing some of your advice until they
Speaker 1: get to that elusive north star. We are inherently social creatures,
Speaker 1: we're of course going to take signals about how lovable
Speaker 1: we actually are and how worthy we are from other
Speaker 1: humans and their love for us. And I think that's
Speaker 1: a very reasonable thing to do. We shouldn't be critical
Speaker 1: of that exactly.
Speaker 2: And also I don't even know what it means to
Speaker 2: check the box on self will right, Like, Okay, now
Speaker 2: I'm done.
Speaker 3: Yeah exactly.
Speaker 1: We're all involved there, Yeah.
Speaker 2: Exactly, We're all evolving and growing and developing all the time. Wonderful,
Speaker 2: we should keep doing that.
Speaker 1: Yeah. What do you think are some of the biggest
Speaker 1: mistakes people make when it comes to their need to
Speaker 1: feel loved, their desire desperation to feel loved.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's interesting.
Speaker 2: So when we don't feel loved, I think we often think, well,
Speaker 2: I need to make myself more lovable, right, Like I
Speaker 2: need to change myself in some way.
Speaker 3: Maybe I need to make more money or become you know.
Speaker 2: The extrinsic goals the psychologists study that actually are not
Speaker 2: related to happiness or like money, fame, beauty, power, status,
Speaker 2: Those are the things that we think, like, if we
Speaker 2: had more of those than maybe I'll feel more loved.
Speaker 2: And then and then we think we need to again
Speaker 2: we need to sort of convince the other person that
Speaker 2: I'm wonderful, broadcast these positive qualities I have, and maybe
Speaker 2: hide my weaknesses and shortcomings because that person I want
Speaker 2: to feel more loved by. Let's say it's my child
Speaker 2: or my mom, or my best friend or my romantic partner,
Speaker 2: maybe they won't love us as much if they knew
Speaker 2: some of our weaknesses and sort of faults. It turns
Speaker 2: out that actually that's not the right way to approach it.
Speaker 2: You know, it's interesting when we meet someone, we tend
Speaker 2: to we want to impress them, right like, so like maya,
Speaker 2: like you know this is we know we don't know
Speaker 2: each other very well, right, so like I'm talking to you,
Speaker 2: and I want to impress you, right like, I want
Speaker 2: you to think that I'm interesting and smart and funny
Speaker 2: and cool and good, a good person and that. And
Speaker 2: I might succeed in impressing you by kind of showing
Speaker 2: these positive sides of me. But it's not going to
Speaker 2: forge a connection, right, It's not going to make you
Speaker 2: or me feel loved by each other.
Speaker 3: It's actually showing more of ourselves.
Speaker 2: Like being a little bit more vulnerable doesn't have to
Speaker 2: be sort of sharing our deepest secrets or traumas. But
Speaker 2: it's when we show more of ourselves that we feel
Speaker 2: we actually feel more loved, because if we don't, we'll
Speaker 2: always wonder like, would he or she love me if
Speaker 2: they knew the full meal? Me?
Speaker 3: Yeah, ye, me, Like we'll always wonder that.
Speaker 1: I mean, it feels so obvious to say, but you
Speaker 1: know it is striking. Like when you listen to wedding vows.
Speaker 1: When you listen to people pronounce their love for other people,
Speaker 1: they never say I love you because you appreciate all
Speaker 1: the wonderful qualities about me, my humor and my smile.
Speaker 1: They say, I love you and I love this relationship
Speaker 1: because you appreciate me despite my flaws, despite my quirks,
Speaker 1: despite all the annoying things about me that I've revealed
Speaker 1: to you over time. Right, that is where that connection exists.
Speaker 3: It's a great example.
Speaker 2: Someone told me a screenwriter or give them advice about writing,
Speaker 2: and they said, if you want to write a character
Speaker 2: who no one connects with, make them perfect. So if
Speaker 2: you want to create a character that no one connects with,
Speaker 2: make them perfect. Right, Because we don't connect with people
Speaker 2: who are like we only see their positive qualities if
Speaker 2: I were to summarize our book in kind of one sentence,
Speaker 2: one of them would be to feel loved, you need
Speaker 2: to be known and to truly know the other And
Speaker 2: so a lot of our recommendations are about how to
Speaker 2: do that. Most people think to feel more loved, I
Speaker 2: need to change myself. I need to make myself more lovable,
Speaker 2: or I need to change the other person. I need
Speaker 2: to convince them to love me more. But it's actually
Speaker 2: not the right approach. You don't have to change yourself,
Speaker 2: you don't have to change the other person. You just
Speaker 2: have to change the conversation. And when you think about it,
Speaker 2: a relationship is basically a series of conversations. You just
Speaker 2: start with the first conversation, and then you go to
Speaker 2: the second conversation. That seems much more under your control,
Speaker 2: right than trying to get the other person to love you.
Speaker 1: We'll be back in a moment with a slight change
Speaker 1: of plans. To start feeling more loved in our relationships,
Speaker 1: Sonia says we need to change the way we connect
Speaker 1: with others. She's come up with five strategies we can
Speaker 1: use to approach our conversations differently. The first is what
Speaker 1: she calls a sharing mindset.
Speaker 2: If the key to feeling loved is to be known,
Speaker 2: then sharing is really important. So when you ask me,
Speaker 2: how are you, sonya, instead of saying fine, which is
Speaker 2: what I probably do for ninety five percent of the time,
Speaker 2: I might say, oh, you know, I had a kind
Speaker 2: of a rough morning this morning. But it doesn't assuven
Speaker 2: negative even I mean, sharing could be I'm sharing my
Speaker 2: sort of true opinion about something and I'm not even
Speaker 2: sure you share that opinion, right, but I'm willing to
Speaker 2: put it out there. It also means asking the right
Speaker 2: questions because it's not just about me sharing and about
Speaker 2: the other person sharing as well.
Speaker 3: Just yesterday actually a friend was.
Speaker 2: Reading my book and she's like, well, what are the
Speaker 2: questions that I could ask to get people to share?
Speaker 3: And I think we all have our own, you know,
Speaker 3: we can come up with.
Speaker 2: But one of them, one of my favorites is, you know,
Speaker 2: what's been on your mind a lot lately? You know,
Speaker 2: what are you thinking a lot? You know, when you're
Speaker 2: going to sleep, when you wake up in the morning,
Speaker 2: what is on your mind? Because people can choose how
Speaker 2: to answer that, right. You can go really deep, or
Speaker 2: you can go you know, medium.
Speaker 1: Yeah, when you embrace a sharing mindset and you open
Speaker 1: yourself up to this transparency and emotional intimacy, you also
Speaker 1: say that it can actually help, whether it can help
Speaker 1: you as a unit, whether it's a friendship or a
Speaker 1: parent child dynamic, or a romantic relationship, whether conflict and
Speaker 1: change and turmoil. When there is that kind of sharing
Speaker 1: and transparency, it helps people understand, oh, look, I don't
Speaker 1: actually have to be perfect to be worthy of love
Speaker 1: in this relationship. And so it lets people's guards down.
Speaker 1: They don't need to be as prideful as stubborn. Maybe
Speaker 1: in their point of view, they're more willing to concede
Speaker 1: right and say, yeah, actually I did kind of err
Speaker 1: in this way, but that's not going to threaten the
Speaker 1: foundation of this relationship.
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, exactly.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So when you're when you're sharing with each other
Speaker 2: and you you you see that both of you, right
Speaker 2: have strength and weaknesses, and then you don't feel like,
Speaker 2: oh my god, like this the relationship is going to end,
Speaker 2: you know, because the person is going to see that
Speaker 2: I'm weak or that I have this fault. And then
Speaker 2: what that means is it gives you sort of a
Speaker 2: sense of self confidence. Right, So when there's a when
Speaker 2: there's a conflict, then you're you're more ready and willing
Speaker 2: to sort of admit say that you've made a mistake.
Speaker 1: Right. Yeah. And it's not just the feeling of oh,
Speaker 1: I'm not going to be weak, it's the love in
Speaker 1: this relationship is not fully un threat. I can reveal
Speaker 1: that I'm aired in some way and the person will
Speaker 1: still love me. I'll still feel loved by them. So capable,
Speaker 1: in fact, maybe more because I revealed this weakness. The
Speaker 1: second mindset shift that you encourage us to embrace is
Speaker 1: a listening to learn mindset. So you say, look, oftentimes
Speaker 1: in conversation, we're not really listening. We're preparing our next
Speaker 1: answer or our next question. Right, So tell me more
Speaker 1: about exactly what it looks like when you listen to learn.
Speaker 3: It's so interesting. So most of us are not very
Speaker 3: good listeners.
Speaker 2: Actually, I was just reading some surveys that showed that
Speaker 2: most most people think they're good listeners, but they think
Speaker 2: other people are bad listeners.
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, that's fun.
Speaker 2: And also another survey that found that our minds are
Speaker 2: wandering at least twenty five percent of the time when
Speaker 2: we're listening, right, So that's a quarter of the time,
Speaker 2: and I think that's maybe it's even more. I mean,
Speaker 2: maybe that's what the survey found.
Speaker 1: Sorry, so I'm just kidding, dad joke.
Speaker 2: So most of us are not very good listeners, myself included,
Speaker 2: because and actually my theory is our whole life, our
Speaker 2: whole schooling, right, we're taught to like listen to respond,
Speaker 2: you know, like like the teachers say something and they
Speaker 2: might call on us at any moment, or the professor
Speaker 2: in college or our parents, and we need to have
Speaker 2: sort of an answer ready.
Speaker 3: And so that's actually like the.
Speaker 2: Sort of epiphany I had recently that maybe that's why
Speaker 2: we're usually listening to respond instead of what we call
Speaker 2: listening to learn, which is really like ideally.
Speaker 3: Should be our goal.
Speaker 2: So instead of mentally rehearsing our answer or the next
Speaker 2: thing we want to say or this is our story,
Speaker 2: we are just truly listening to learn. And the best example,
Speaker 2: i mean, the best kind of like metaphor that someone
Speaker 2: gave me recently was treat the other person talking as
Speaker 2: though you're watching a film. So when you're watching a movie,
Speaker 2: you're not like formulating a response, right, You're just like
Speaker 2: taking it in, So, Maya, when you're talking, if I
Speaker 2: just think of it as like I'm watching a film,
Speaker 2: I'm just taking it in that I'm just listening to learn,
Speaker 2: and I'm just like learning from you.
Speaker 1: So and with the movie, I mean, you have a
Speaker 1: lot to gain from paying attention. You're trying to figure out, oh,
Speaker 1: what's this part of the plot and is their clue
Speaker 1: sitting in the scene right exactly.
Speaker 2: I mean, of course your mind can wander during a movie,
Speaker 2: but you know, yeah, so I like that. I really
Speaker 2: like that because it's very intuitive. Like just imagine it's
Speaker 2: a film, and so you're sort of listening to learn.
Speaker 2: But then what's really important also is to show that
Speaker 2: you're listening to learn, and not just by nodding and
Speaker 2: making eye contact. I mean, that's good, but often people
Speaker 2: can fake that. Yeah, but by asking questions and by
Speaker 2: asking the kinds of questions that show that you were
Speaker 2: really listening. Right, So when you ask me a question
Speaker 2: that like is insightful, like I clearly, yeah, I know
Speaker 2: that you're understanding, and maybe you're even taking what I
Speaker 2: said to a new level. You know, my best friend
Speaker 2: lives in Barcelona, and so she and I are always
Speaker 2: leaving voice memos for each other, and so she'll listen
Speaker 2: to what I said, she'll take and I'll do the
Speaker 2: same thing.
Speaker 3: She'll take notes and.
Speaker 2: Then she'll like have insights or questions that take it
Speaker 2: to even to another level, so I know she's truly listening.
Speaker 1: Right, And to connect the dots to feeling loved is
Speaker 1: the idea that when you listen to learn and you
Speaker 1: have that mindset, you are helping to build the foundation
Speaker 1: for the kind of vulnerability and openness that is so
Speaker 1: crucial for feeling loved.
Speaker 3: That's right.
Speaker 2: The idea is that when you're sharing, when you're telling
Speaker 2: your story, I'm getting to know you so that I
Speaker 2: help you feel loved by getting to know you better.
Speaker 2: And then when you're sharing your story, by truly listening
Speaker 2: to you, listening to learn, I help you kind of
Speaker 2: feel loved and I help you open up even more.
Speaker 2: Curiosity is so important but also so rare, right, Like
Speaker 2: when was the last time you remember that someone was
Speaker 2: so curious about you?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 2: Like, maybe you're telling a story and they just and
Speaker 2: they're leaning in and they're like eyes are bright and
Speaker 2: they just couldn't wait.
Speaker 3: For you to share your story. It's kind of priceless.
Speaker 2: When it happens right, it really makes you feel no
Speaker 2: and loved. And so we actually start by with radical curiosity,
Speaker 2: kind of backing up.
Speaker 3: If you don't feel loved.
Speaker 2: Our recommendation is that you make the other person feel
Speaker 2: loved first. And sometimes it seems a little bit unfair,
Speaker 2: but that's that's how we think it should go. So
Speaker 2: if I want to feel more loved by my romantic partner,
Speaker 2: I need to go first. So we develop this idea
Speaker 2: of the relationship seesaw. We spell it C like sea
Speaker 2: like under the C because we imagine a seesaw that's
Speaker 2: partially submerged underwater. And let's say let's say me and
Speaker 2: my romantic partner are sitting on both sides of the seesaw.
Speaker 2: And the thing is we're most of us are submerged
Speaker 2: under the water. And what that means is we're hiding,
Speaker 2: really are most of ourselves. You know, there's only sort
Speaker 2: of the tip that is sort of visible, and I
Speaker 2: think that's true for a lot of people. Another way
Speaker 2: to think about it is that we all have walls
Speaker 2: around us, and you know, these walls are there to
Speaker 2: protect ourselves, but they also prevent other people from really
Speaker 2: seeing you and letting people in. So again, so I'm
Speaker 2: sitting across from my romantic partner sort of submerge underwater.
Speaker 2: And so if I want to feel more love, I
Speaker 2: need to make him feel more loved first, And the
Speaker 2: way I do that is by lifting him a little
Speaker 2: bit up out of the water, sort of helping him
Speaker 2: to reveal more of his true self or his well,
Speaker 2: there's no such thing really as a true self, but
Speaker 2: more of his full self.
Speaker 3: And so how do I do that?
Speaker 2: You first show curiosity in them. I actually have an
Speaker 2: example from my twelve year old daughter told me that
Speaker 2: she has this classmate and she was really excited about
Speaker 2: some sport I don't even remember what it is, like
Speaker 2: some obscure sport and she's like, no one else like
Speaker 2: cares or knows about it. And so she was telling
Speaker 2: my daughter about the sport and she's and my daughter said, mom,
Speaker 2: like a month later, she's like, I remembered that she's
Speaker 2: really into the sport, and so I asked her about it,
Speaker 2: and the girl just like went crazy.
Speaker 3: She was so excited, went.
Speaker 2: On or on or not right, because she was asking
Speaker 2: her about this thing that she really cared about. So anyway,
Speaker 2: that's like this idea that you feel so like seen
Speaker 2: when people are really curious about you. So yeah, you
Speaker 2: show curiosity, the other person hopefully will respond by sharing,
Speaker 2: and then you respond by listening to learn.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I've definitely had the experience where after some long day,
Speaker 1: I'll call one of my best friends or I'll talk
Speaker 1: to my husband about my day, and there are moments
Speaker 1: where I just say, thank you so much for caring
Speaker 1: about the boring minutia of my life, Like how rare
Speaker 1: is it to find someone who wants to hear the
Speaker 1: play by play of how my meeting went with my
Speaker 1: boss or how this other event happened. And it is
Speaker 1: one of the most rewarding things in life to feel
Speaker 1: like people truly care.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, actually, I thank you for that example because
Speaker 2: I actually often use the example of, like we all
Speaker 2: know people who kind of go on and on about
Speaker 2: sort of the boring details of their life. You know,
Speaker 2: even when the other person's not interested, right, they'll be like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 2: I went to run this errand and like I didn't
Speaker 2: have enough change for the parking meter, and then they're
Speaker 2: going into all these details, and you know, it's boring
Speaker 2: to listen to, but you realize, like we crave to
Speaker 2: be known, even like the messy, boring things about us.
Speaker 1: Yes, okay, So just to summarize at this point, we
Speaker 1: approach the conversation with radical curiosity, right. We try to
Speaker 1: be genuinely interested in what they're saying, they share, and
Speaker 1: then we adopt a listening to learn mindset, So rather
Speaker 1: than just focusing our next response, we actually absorb what
Speaker 1: they're saying. We let it affect us, we let it sit,
Speaker 1: and then the hope is there is reciprocity, and so
Speaker 1: they do those same things, and then over time we
Speaker 1: build this lovely dynamic where each of us are actually
Speaker 1: feeling more loved.
Speaker 3: Exactly.
Speaker 1: There's two other mindset shifts, and I wonder if you
Speaker 1: could just quickly go over which is the open hearted
Speaker 1: mindset and the multiplicity mindset.
Speaker 2: Right, And those actually go really very nicely along with
Speaker 2: the other three mindset So again, imagine we're having this conversation.
Speaker 2: I'm curious, you're sharing, I'm listening. So the open heart
Speaker 2: mindset is actually the one that characterizes most relationships already.
Speaker 2: So open heart is basically having warmth for the other person.
Speaker 2: Warmth compassion, believe it in them, believing in their dreams.
Speaker 2: And so when you're opening up, I show that I
Speaker 2: really care.
Speaker 3: Right, So I'm not just.
Speaker 2: Listening because I'm intellectually curious.
Speaker 3: I actually really care.
Speaker 2: I want you to be happy. I kind of like it,
Speaker 2: like open heart is basically, I want you to be happy.
Speaker 2: I want you to be well. I'm kind to you,
Speaker 2: I believe in you. And then the last mindset is
Speaker 2: actually one of maybe my favorite, actually lift mine too, Yeah, yeah, absolutely,
Speaker 2: It's called the multiplicity mindset.
Speaker 1: People contain multitudes?
Speaker 3: Is that funny? Exactly?
Speaker 2: We all contain multitudes. We're all a quilt of many,
Speaker 2: many things, of both positive and negative qualities. Right, So
Speaker 2: sometimes I'm kind and sometimes I'm selfish, Right, sometimes I'm loyal,
Speaker 2: and sometimes I'm a little narcissistic. And we're all like that, right,
Speaker 2: we kind of know that, but to really accept that
Speaker 2: in ourselves and in others, right, this idea that we're
Speaker 2: all many things, that one trait, one bad behavior, or
Speaker 2: one negative trait does not define us. And sort of
Speaker 2: when you're sharing, so my, when you're sharing your story
Speaker 2: about yourself and you share maybe you share some part
Speaker 2: of you that's sort of not positive, right, or that
Speaker 2: makes me a little uncomfortable.
Speaker 3: If I use a multiplicity.
Speaker 2: Lens, then I sort of accept you, and I understand
Speaker 2: that that's part of being human. And by the way,
Speaker 2: like I'm not saying that we should sort of accept everything. Yeah,
Speaker 2: using them multiplicity lens doesn't mean that we justify or
Speaker 2: condone or excuse other people's behavior. It's just that we
Speaker 2: sort of see them in all of their complexity. I
Speaker 2: think as the older I get that I feel like
Speaker 2: I have more compassion for others sort of faults, fault
Speaker 2: of forthcomings.
Speaker 1: You devote an entire chapter at the end of your
Speaker 1: book to how there are individual differences in people, right
Speaker 1: when it comes to how they both give and receive love. So,
Speaker 1: for example, someone's personality, or their cultural background, or their
Speaker 1: mental health status. Can you speak to some of these
Speaker 1: factors and how we should incorporate them into our adoption
Speaker 1: of these different mindsets.
Speaker 2: Yeah, really important question because we have a chapter on yeah,
Speaker 2: individual differences, but also a chapter on different relationships and
Speaker 2: how these mindsets might play out in different relationships, like
Speaker 2: with your kids versus with your colleagues. I think the
Speaker 2: one that stands out for me are cultural differences right there.
Speaker 2: We know their cultures where people like share everything, like
Speaker 2: share a lot, and others where people share a lot
Speaker 2: less or people or people are just kind of quiet
Speaker 2: or they make you feel understood by sort of in
Speaker 2: the quieter moments. It doesn't have to be sort of
Speaker 2: a lot of questions, and so I think it almost
Speaker 2: doesn't matter what those differences are, But what matters is
Speaker 2: sort of to recognize that not everyone is going to
Speaker 2: be embracing these mindsets in the same way. One thought
Speaker 2: I had is actually about gender differences. There's this great
Speaker 2: quote that women's friendships are face to face and men's
Speaker 2: friendships are side by side, And I think it's kind
Speaker 2: of a beautiful idea that the way that women share
Speaker 2: and listen to each other's a little bit different from
Speaker 2: the way that I think men maybe are more likely
Speaker 2: to share when they're doing an activity together, so they're
Speaker 2: sort of playing golf for their I don't know, like
Speaker 2: doing something together and then they're kind of having that
Speaker 2: chat as opposed to sitting across from each other at
Speaker 2: a coffee shop.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's some of the differences.
Speaker 1: The idea that we have control over how love we
Speaker 1: feel is going to be so empowering for so many
Speaker 1: people who can let out a sigh of relief and think, Okay,
Speaker 1: I don't have to overhaul my whole life or the
Speaker 1: structure of my relationships. There are things that are more
Speaker 1: within my control. I'm curious, since you've released the book
Speaker 1: and you've heard from readers and listeners, is there a
Speaker 1: story of someone who has taken the advice in your
Speaker 1: book and applied it to their lives to good effect.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: One person wrote to me and they said that they
Speaker 2: were going to a dinner that night and they had
Speaker 2: just read the Listening to Learn chapter and so they
Speaker 2: were using the listening techniques at the dinner, and so
Speaker 2: that was beautiful. A lot more people are sharing. I mean,
Speaker 2: my friends and the people I hang out with tend
Speaker 2: to be sharers already, but just sharing a little more, right,
Speaker 2: Like just share five percent more than you usually do.
Speaker 2: And so I encourage everyone to experiment sort of in
Speaker 2: their own way. All of the five mindsets are going
Speaker 2: to look a little bit different practiced by every different person.
Speaker 2: So yeah, experiment, like what works for you and your relationship.
Speaker 2: The end goal is to be known and to fully
Speaker 2: known the other person.
Speaker 1: Hey, thanks so much for listening. We'll include a link
Speaker 1: to the book How to Feel Loved in the show notes.
Speaker 1: And if you're enjoying A Slight Change of Plans, we'd
Speaker 1: be so grateful if you could follow the show wherever
Speaker 1: you listen to podcasts. We'll be back in a week
Speaker 1: with another episode. I'll see you then. A Slight Change
Speaker 1: of Plans is created, written, and executive produced by me
Speaker 1: Maya Schunker. The Slight Change Family includes our showrunner Alexandra Garatin,
Speaker 1: our editor Daphne Chen, our lead producer Megan Lubin, our
Speaker 1: associate producer Sonya Gerwit, and our sound engineer Erica Huang.
Speaker 1: Louis Scara wrote our delightful theme song and Ginger Smith
Speaker 1: helped arrange the vocals. A Slight Change of Plans is
Speaker 1: a production of Pushkin Industries, So big thanks to everyone there,
Speaker 1: and of course, of very special thanks to Jimmy Lee
Speaker 2: Do