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Speaker 1: Body backs with Joseph Scott Morgan. One of the greatest

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Speaker 1: gifts any man can be given, as a beautiful wife, too,

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Speaker 1: adoring daughters, and a child he had unborn. For years now,

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Speaker 1: the case of Chris Watts has puzzled many of us,

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Speaker 1: wondering what his motivation was to literally go in and

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Speaker 1: destroy this beautiful gift he had been given. My name

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Speaker 1: is Joseph Scott Morgan and this his body backs. Joining

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Speaker 1: me right now is my good friend Jackie Howard, producer

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Speaker 1: of Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Jackie, what can you

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Speaker 1: tell us about this case? As you said Joe, Chris

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Speaker 1: Wats and his wife, Shanane had two daughters, four year

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Speaker 1: old Mella and three year old Celeste, and Chanane was

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Speaker 1: expecting a baby boy. Shanan had been out of town

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Speaker 1: and came home and that's where things go sideways. Chanan

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Speaker 1: misses a doctor's appointment and when a friend goes over

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Speaker 1: to check on them, NaN's car is still in the

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Speaker 1: driveway with the car seats in it, and Chris Watts

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Speaker 1: tells her that Chanane had taken the kids on a playdate.

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Speaker 1: At that point, the friend knew there was exactly a

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Speaker 1: problem because the car seats were still in the car

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Speaker 1: in the driveway. Police are called. We know now, Joe,

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Speaker 1: that Chris Wats strangled his wife in their bed after sex,

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Speaker 1: which leads us to wonder how was he able? Yes,

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Speaker 1: she was pregnant, but how was he able to so

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Speaker 1: easily overpower his wife. We know that she traveled, so

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Speaker 1: she was tired, she had just gotten home, she is pregnant,

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Speaker 1: and we also find out later on that over the

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Speaker 1: weeks before her murder had been dosing her with oxycodone.

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Speaker 1: Any of these things alone would have taken her strength away.

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Speaker 1: What happens when you've got all of these things going

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Speaker 1: on together, Jackie, I think the thing comes to mind

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Speaker 1: for me in regards to Shenan in this case is

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Speaker 1: a term that you hear many times, bone weary. Can

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Speaker 1: you imagine she is in the advanced months of pregnancy,

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Speaker 1: She's been carrying her and born son Nko for all

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Speaker 1: this time, and she's still on the road going to

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Speaker 1: sales meetings and this sort of thing, and that even

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Speaker 1: and she had in fact return from a sales meeting

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Speaker 1: her friend to drop her off. Can you imagine how

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Speaker 1: weary she was and then to come home into this

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Speaker 1: environment with a husband who she was troubled with. They

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Speaker 1: didn't have a solid marriage anymore. There were dark storm

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Speaker 1: clouds on the front. And then just think about this

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Speaker 1: for a second, because we really couldn't get real good

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Speaker 1: toxicology off of Snan's body. But if in fact he

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Speaker 1: had been dosing her with oxycon along the way, perhaps

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Speaker 1: maybe to induce a premature birth at some point in time,

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Speaker 1: but tonight plan was different. He was going to dose

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Speaker 1: her with this and then she was going to drift

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Speaker 1: off into a very very deep sleep. And you know

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Speaker 1: from the reports that we have heard, they may have

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Speaker 1: had intercourse just prior to this. And this goes to

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Speaker 1: this idea that he's kind of drawing her in the

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Speaker 1: entire time, trying to make her feel safe and secure,

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Speaker 1: maybe one last time. Maybe she thinks that everything's going

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Speaker 1: to be okay, but she's not going to have the

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Speaker 1: will or the physical ability to fight back. So when

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Speaker 1: he wrapped his hands around her throat, and there is

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Speaker 1: evidence that she was choked on the right side, there

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Speaker 1: was some hemorrhage of her neck, she couldn't fight a

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Speaker 1: matter of fact, it took so little pressure in order

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Speaker 1: to squeeze the life out of this pregnant mama. That

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Speaker 1: we didn't even see any evidence of particular hemorrhages in

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Speaker 1: her eyes, which normally come about within a fixial death.

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Speaker 1: You know, this increased pressure, so that gives you an

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Speaker 1: indication perhaps of how a little pressure it took to

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Speaker 1: subdue her and eventually in her life, Joe. We actually

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Speaker 1: do not know specifically whether or not Chris Watts dosed

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Speaker 1: his wife with oxycodon that day. It has been suspected

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Speaker 1: he told someone, a pimpal that he had been writing to,

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Speaker 1: that he had been trying to poison her. But with

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Speaker 1: the tissues that remained when Shenanne's body was found, but

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Speaker 1: they proved that our body was in such a stated

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Speaker 1: decomposition that it's actually an unprovable point. When you recovered

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Speaker 1: decomposed tissue, it's a real uphill battle to retrieve sufficient

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Speaker 1: sam one in order to conduct toxicology examination. Just think

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Speaker 1: about it. The more compromised the body is by natural

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Speaker 1: decay that's occurring out in the elements, and she was,

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Speaker 1: in fact in the elements buried in a very shallow grave.

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Speaker 1: Those elements that we would normally examine after death are

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Speaker 1: compromised to the point where you can't you can't really

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Speaker 1: appreciate if, in fact, there was a lethal level of

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Speaker 1: any kind of substance in her system. Now you might

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Speaker 1: be able to find out, and these are two terms

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Speaker 1: we use in forensics and forensic toxicology. You can you

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Speaker 1: might perhaps can qualify a substance in the body and say, yes,

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Speaker 1: we have an opiate in the system, okay, But because

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Speaker 1: a tissue is so compromised, you're not necessarily going to

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Speaker 1: be able to quantify that, and that means apply a

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Speaker 1: specific number to that agent in the body. Well, why

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Speaker 1: is that important? And it's important because there are what

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Speaker 1: are called therapeutic doses. That is, if you go to

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Speaker 1: the doctor and they give you medicine for a hurt

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Speaker 1: back or maybe a busted knee, there's a certain amount

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Speaker 1: that's acceptable to be taken into the body that is

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Speaker 1: not going to put you into a lethal range. But

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Speaker 1: you can't achieve that would decompose tissue. More than likely,

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Speaker 1: there is no blood left where you can draw it

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Speaker 1: up and examine it in its normal state post mortem,

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Speaker 1: that is a non decomposed status, and then the tissue

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Speaker 1: that's left behind you can't really examine it for it

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Speaker 1: at least to put a fine point on it. With

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Speaker 1: those numbers, Is it a lethal level, is at a

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Speaker 1: non therapeutical level, Those things that would give us an

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Speaker 1: indication that maybe this was an intentional overdose. When you're

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Speaker 1: looking at a body that has been buried in a

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Speaker 1: shallow grave versus six or eight feet deep. When we

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Speaker 1: think about how people are normally buried, although yes they're

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Speaker 1: normally in a coffin, but a body that's been buried

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Speaker 1: in a shallow grave versus someone that was much deeper,

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Speaker 1: what is the difference that you are going to be

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Speaker 1: able to see forensically? Is there going to be a

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Speaker 1: difference between a shallow grave and a deep grave? You know,

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Speaker 1: the fact that that Nan was buried in a shallow

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Speaker 1: grave brings all kinds of problems along with it, as

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Speaker 1: opposed to somebody digging down traditionally, which you think about,

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Speaker 1: you know, six feet deep, we've heard that term before.

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Speaker 1: When you get down into that kind of substrata what

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Speaker 1: they call substrata, you're just barely on the surface here there.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't afford a lot of protection for the body.

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Speaker 1: So any kind of insect life that's out there, the

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Speaker 1: body may as well be on top of the ground

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Speaker 1: because for a fly that's coming by, it's nothing for

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Speaker 1: the fly since this body buried under a very thin

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Speaker 1: layer of soil. So you're going to still have, for instance,

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Speaker 1: larval development that turns into to maggot. For instance, you're

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Speaker 1: going to have burrowing animals that might not be quite

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Speaker 1: as prone to get down to six feet would you know,

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Speaker 1: just a very shallow area, they can dig down very easily.

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Speaker 1: And then you know, out in this area you've got

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Speaker 1: things like coyotes and they've got this tremendous sense of smell,

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Speaker 1: so it's not really going to inhibit their ability to

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Speaker 1: sense this body. And with that comes the fact that

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Speaker 1: the body will be further compromised. It's just kind of logic,

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Speaker 1: you know that earth. The deeper in the earth that

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Speaker 1: you go, the body becomes more and more protected from

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Speaker 1: what's going out on the surface and what's happening. And

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Speaker 1: then you still have the environmental factors. If the body

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Speaker 1: is in a shallow grave, the body is not going

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Speaker 1: to be very well protected from heat either, maybe not

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Speaker 1: to the degree that you would appreciate if the body

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Speaker 1: was laying out on bare earth, but still heat is

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Speaker 1: going to impact the body and it's going to speed

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Speaker 1: up the process of decomposition. As you said earlier, joke,

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Speaker 1: there is cough and birth. Talk to me about what

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Speaker 1: that is, how that happens and this date's body when

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Speaker 1: she has discovered here's here's what this scene would have

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Speaker 1: looked like. And you know, I had an opportunity to

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Speaker 1: hear some of the comments were made by many of

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Speaker 1: the investigators that were out there and they're still to

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Speaker 1: this day. Jackie just troubled down to to their soul

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Speaker 1: over what they saw and we're just talking about Chanane's grave. Chanan,

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Speaker 1: according to them, was essentially buried in a very very

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Speaker 1: shallow grave. It wasn't There was not great effort that

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Speaker 1: was taken in this. And we can learn a lot

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Speaker 1: about an individual based upon this preparation, if you will.

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Speaker 1: They have described her body as essentially being dumped in

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Speaker 1: there like a pile of garbage. We do know that

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Speaker 1: she was wrapping a sheet in the line on one

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Speaker 1: side of her body. It's it's not you know, when

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Speaker 1: we think about burial in a modern context, we think

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Speaker 1: about people being on or don't we We think about people,

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Speaker 1: say perhaps being laid on their back, maybe their hands crossed,

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Speaker 1: not thrown away like rubbish. And according to the investigators,

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Speaker 1: that's what they saw. It was hurried, it was frenzied,

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Speaker 1: it was disordered. And as they began to kind of

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Speaker 1: peel away these levels of dirt. As they kind of

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Speaker 1: began to peel away these layers of dirt that have

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Speaker 1: been quickly placed over her body, and they began to

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Speaker 1: pull back the sheet that she was wrapped in, one

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Speaker 1: of the things they saw was the body of a

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Speaker 1: little nico that she had been pregnant with. And this

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Speaker 1: gives you an indication as to how decomposed her body was.

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Speaker 1: When humans are in a normal state, there's a certain

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Speaker 1: amount of muscle tension that's in the body, and just

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Speaker 1: thinking about that relative to a pregnancy, there's a certain

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Speaker 1: amount of elasticity in tension that is occurring, say for instance,

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Speaker 1: in the womb, in the uterus, that retains a child

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Speaker 1: in place. But as decomposition begins to set in, that

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Speaker 1: tension is released because the muscles they no longer have

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Speaker 1: the same continuity. And as they release, as the body

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Speaker 1: of the mother begins to decompose, this tension that endwells

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Speaker 1: a body naturally releases, the muscles are no longer as

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Speaker 1: resilient as they once were, and suddenly we have what

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Speaker 1: it's called a coffin birth. So the baby is literally

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Speaker 1: born in a post mortem state. That means that the

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Speaker 1: mother's decomposing body has the child's body issued forth from her.

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Speaker 1: It's no longer contained in And when the investigators pulled

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Speaker 1: back that sheet, they found little Nico laying there, and

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Speaker 1: they describe his body as being in a state of

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Speaker 1: decomposition as well, you know, no longer protected by his

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Speaker 1: mother's body. Now that little fetus, that little now born

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Speaker 1: child in death is exposed to the same elemental factors,

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Speaker 1: the same decompositional factors as his mother's body. And there

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Speaker 1: he lay in that dirt next to his mama's body,

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Speaker 1: knowing that nan had been dead probably about twelve hours

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Speaker 1: at this point, Nico would not have been born alive. Correct,

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Speaker 1: That's not possible for that baby to have been born alive.

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Speaker 1: This was something that occurred postmortal. Man, keep in mind,

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Speaker 1: and this really kind of drives drives a point home here,

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Speaker 1: and this is why this is just one of the

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Speaker 1: points along this that makes this so gut wretched, is

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Speaker 1: the fact that when Chris Watts wrapped his hands around

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Speaker 1: Channan Watts's throat and he called is that hemorrhage in

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Speaker 1: the muscles around her neck? As he squeezed the life

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Speaker 1: out of her, he was in effect squeezing the life

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Speaker 1: out of this unborn child. And it is a sad said,

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Speaker 1: ending to this life, Jackie. We've talked a little bit

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Speaker 1: about Chanan and little Nico. What do we know about

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Speaker 1: Celeste and Bella? Chris Watts took his children with him

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Speaker 1: in the vehicle on the way to bury Chanan Watts,

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Speaker 1: but what happened once they got to the oil field

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Speaker 1: is certainly disturbing. We know the girls, we're asking what

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Speaker 1: was wrong with their mother? And then he smothered his

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Speaker 1: girls one at a time. What is the difference job

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Speaker 1: between smothering a child and strangling an adult or is

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Speaker 1: there any difference? That's a good question, Jackie. And forensics

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Speaker 1: we actually refer to both of these kinds of deaths,

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Speaker 1: whether it's a strangulation or a suffocation as an asphyxial death.

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Speaker 1: And what that means is it's a deprivation of oxygen.

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Speaker 1: As we say in the South, things got cut off

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Speaker 1: you know, you're cutting off the air, the air supply,

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Speaker 1: and so that's what's actually happening here. So you're depriving

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Speaker 1: these little bodies, both Celeste and Bella, of their source

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Speaker 1: of oxygen. And you know they're they're believing, at least

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Speaker 1: the m is believing that this in fact was a smothering.

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Speaker 1: And you know it's floated around for years and years.

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Speaker 1: It's smothering is one of the most difficult things to detect.

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Speaker 1: And you'd be absolutely right because you know, you think about, well,

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Speaker 1: how would you go about smothering smothering these children. Well,

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Speaker 1: in the case of say, for instance, we've got Celeste,

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Speaker 1: who's tiny. You know, she's only three years old, you

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Speaker 1: could very simply if you're a grown man, particularly the

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Speaker 1: size of their daddy. Remember he worked out all the time.

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Speaker 1: He took a lot of pride in displaying how what

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Speaker 1: a fantastic physique he has. They would be no match

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Speaker 1: for this man. With Celeste, there was very little evidence

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Speaker 1: of trauma on her little body, so it would be

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Speaker 1: very simple for him to take, say, for instance, the

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Speaker 1: palm of his hand or even a pillow and place

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Speaker 1: it over her mouth. I think that probably in these

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Speaker 1: circumstances out there. Remember that the investigators believe these two

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Speaker 1: children were actually alive. In his vehicle as he is

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Speaker 1: transporting the body of his deceased wife out to her

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Speaker 1: burial spot. He could have easily placed his hand over

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Speaker 1: celesque face, over her nose, in her mouth and deprived

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Speaker 1: her of oxygen and she would have essentially just kind

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Speaker 1: of gone to sleep. And this is what's referred to

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Speaker 1: as an anoxic death, which means that you're literally depriving

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Speaker 1: the brain of oxygen. The brain requires oxygen in order

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Speaker 1: to do all of its functions and including keeping our

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Speaker 1: heart beating. Now, Bella is a completely different story, and

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Speaker 1: I'll tell you why. There's something that's very very significant

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Speaker 1: here from a forensic standpoint that gives us an indication

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Speaker 1: of what may have happened to her and what he

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Speaker 1: actually did to her. She had no evidence of BATIKUII,

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Speaker 1: and that is those little vessels that are bursting in

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Speaker 1: her eyes due to pressure. However, there is something significant,

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Speaker 1: and it has to do with her mouth. Investigator's report

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Speaker 1: and theme reports that she had some trauma to her tongue.

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Speaker 1: You know, how else would she get trauma to her tongue?

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Speaker 1: Unless she's probably resisting, and not only in her tongue,

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Speaker 1: but there's a little piece of tissue that attaches our

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Speaker 1: upper lip and our lower lip to the gums, respectively,

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Speaker 1: and that's referred to as frenulum, and it's a classic

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Speaker 1: thing that you look for in suffocation or smothering. Her

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00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:40,639
Speaker 1: upper frenulum was actually lacerated or torn. And if people

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Speaker 1: at home will just kind of take the tip of

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Speaker 1: your tongue, put it outside your gum and in between

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Speaker 1: your lip, and you can actually feel that little piece

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Speaker 1: of connective tissue if there is pressure directly applied to

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Speaker 1: the mouth with a hand, for instance, and you're fighting,

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Speaker 1: you're resisting, you're trying to save your own life, you're trying,

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Speaker 1: you're struggling to get a breath. That can actually tear.

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Speaker 1: And I find it very interesting that out of the

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Speaker 1: essentially four lives that he ended, little Bella fought the most.

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Speaker 1: She was only four years old. Just let that sink in.

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Speaker 1: We you know, we were all four years old at

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Speaker 1: one point in time. Maybe we have children or grandchildren

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Speaker 1: that are four. You can think about the size of

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Speaker 1: a child, a little girl like this, But she fought,

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Speaker 1: and you know what, the one thing that they found

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Speaker 1: on Chris Watts at night when they interviewed him, the

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Speaker 1: one bit of evidence when they talked to him the

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Speaker 1: next day. He had a small mark on his neck,

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Speaker 1: and I've often wondered if that was not Bella in

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Speaker 1: just a last gasp, a desperate gasp, but try to

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Speaker 1: reach up and fend her daddy off, her father, her father,

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Speaker 1: the man that was there to protect her and love

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Speaker 1: on her and watch after her as she grew up.

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Speaker 1: She's trying to fight him off, perhaps, and she scratched

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Speaker 1: him on his neck, and they have evidence of this.

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Speaker 1: They took pictures of that. They've never actually linked the two,

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Speaker 1: but I've often thought about that, because she did fight back.

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Speaker 1: She fought back to the point where this tissue in

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Speaker 1: her mouth was essentially lacerated and there were little areas

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Speaker 1: of hemorrhage, which means it happened in life. Joe, you

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Speaker 1: just confused me by saying that there was no particular

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Speaker 1: hemorrhage in her eyes. How is that possible? And you're

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Speaker 1: gonna have to explain that to me because you've repeatedly

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Speaker 1: said that when people are smothered, that's one of the

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Speaker 1: first things that forensic experts look for. So how was

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Speaker 1: it possible if she was smothered that there's not any

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Speaker 1: I'll tell you why, Jackie. I'm a simple guy and

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Speaker 1: I kind of like word pictures, and so the way

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Speaker 1: I always try to explain particular hemorrhaging is ill you

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Speaker 1: think about a water hose that's attached to your house,

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Speaker 1: and you've got a nozzle on one end, and it's closed,

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Speaker 1: and you turn up the water pressure on this faucet

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Speaker 1: outside of your house, and the hose might begin to expand,

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Speaker 1: but yet you turn it off and suddenly the water

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Speaker 1: that's trapped in there you can release it if you

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Speaker 1: if you squeeze the nozzle. There has to be sufficient

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Speaker 1: amount of time that goes by where this internal pressure

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Speaker 1: is placed on these tiny little vessels. These vessels are

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Speaker 1: actually located and what's referred to as our capillary beds,

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Speaker 1: which are these tiny, tiny little vessels. You've got what

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Speaker 1: are called arterials and you've got what are called venules.

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Speaker 1: And what happens is that most of the time with

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Speaker 1: particular hemorrhagy, if you put enough pressure on them, they're

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Speaker 1: going to literally burst and in the little areas of

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Speaker 1: tissue that surround these vessels, that blood seeps out, It

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Speaker 1: seeps out into what's called interstitial tissue, and it presents

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Speaker 1: You can't you can't make it go away. It's not

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Speaker 1: like a crime scene that you go back and you

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Speaker 1: try to clean it up. That doesn't happen. With these

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Speaker 1: little pen prick hemorrhages. It's going to be there forever

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Speaker 1: and ever. Amen. The trick here, though, is that in

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Speaker 1: all three of these cases where Chris Watts put his

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Speaker 1: hands on these two children, these two little precious baby

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Speaker 1: girls and his precious wife it's lading their sleep, is

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Speaker 1: that he didn't render enough pressure for long enough time,

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Speaker 1: for long enough time for these vessels to burst in

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Speaker 1: their eyes so that they could appreciate. You're not always

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Speaker 1: going to get these little focal areas of hemorrhage like that.

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00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:39,680
Speaker 1: It is not necessarily going to happen. So what you're

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Speaker 1: telling me, Joe, is that the difference in the two

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Speaker 1: is that it took less pressure and less time to

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Speaker 1: kill a child as opposed to an adult. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: you're absolutely right, Jackie. It did take less pressure and

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Speaker 1: less time because they're weaker and so it only takes

342
00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:03,840
Speaker 1: a smaller amount of time to compromise their airway, their

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00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:07,960
Speaker 1: ability to uptake oxygen so that their brain can still

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Speaker 1: function as opposed to someone that might be more robust,

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Speaker 1: like a full grown man, an adult, if you will.

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Speaker 1: And you know, Nan is not too far removed from

347
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Speaker 1: this category because we reflect back and think about what

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00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:25,359
Speaker 1: we think may have been her status. We know that

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00:22:25,359 --> 00:22:28,520
Speaker 1: she was tired, we know that she was advanced in

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Speaker 1: her month's relative to pregnancy, and also there's that specter

351
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Speaker 1: that she may have had some type of drug on

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Speaker 1: board that would cause her to be in a weakened state,

353
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Speaker 1: cause her to be I don't know, just probably barely

354
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Speaker 1: semi conscious. So yeah, it's not going to take too

355
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Speaker 1: much in their lives. It's such a tragedy when you

356
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Speaker 1: begin to think about these two little girls whose lives

357
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Speaker 1: were snuffed out by their daddy. But one of the

358
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Speaker 1: really puzzling and most horrific parts to this whole story

359
00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:21,920
Speaker 1: is what he did with the bodies afterwards. You're absolutely right, Joe.

360
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Speaker 1: Let's start at the beginning. We know that once the

361
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Speaker 1: little girls were dead, that he first stuffed at their

362
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Speaker 1: little bodies through an eight inch hatch into an oil tank.

363
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Speaker 1: Let's just start there. How do the bodies of two

364
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Speaker 1: little girls four and three years old fit through an

365
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Speaker 1: eight inch hole? Think about it. That's about the size

366
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Speaker 1: of a dinner plate. It's horrific, you know. And it

367
00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:58,480
Speaker 1: was the Anna Darco wall fields out there, and it's

368
00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:01,040
Speaker 1: a desolate area. I mean it is you talk about

369
00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:04,919
Speaker 1: being removed. It was removed from breast of civilization and

370
00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:07,080
Speaker 1: just kind of sits out there. It kind of rises

371
00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:10,240
Speaker 1: up out of this prairie out there. Why there, Well,

372
00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:12,199
Speaker 1: he knew that it would be isolated. This guy was

373
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Speaker 1: familiar with this area. He had a full awareness of

374
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Speaker 1: what went out there. And these tanks are essentially storage

375
00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:26,240
Speaker 1: tanks for raw petroleum. He takes these two children out there,

376
00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:29,080
Speaker 1: and he's got a problem. What am I going to

377
00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:31,280
Speaker 1: do with him? Well, he had already dug a very

378
00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:34,560
Speaker 1: shallow grave for his wife not too far away from

379
00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:38,240
Speaker 1: the base of these tanks, and quickly deposited her body

380
00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:41,040
Speaker 1: in that area. Now, what do you do with these

381
00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:44,399
Speaker 1: two children where there's two tanks. Now, these things are

382
00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:48,480
Speaker 1: made very specifically. They're kind of high. They're probably approximating

383
00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:51,919
Speaker 1: maybe twenty feet in height there, so and on top

384
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Speaker 1: they have these little hatches and they've got a very

385
00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:58,840
Speaker 1: interesting name. They're called thief hatches. And he popped the

386
00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:03,920
Speaker 1: latch on the thief hatch on each one of these tanks.

387
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Speaker 1: And with Bella in particular. She's four years old, so

388
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Speaker 1: her body is certainly larger and more robust than her

389
00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:17,880
Speaker 1: three year old sister Celeste. How do you get her

390
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Speaker 1: into this hole? Well, the only way I can really

391
00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:26,080
Speaker 1: describe it is the fact that she was actually jammed

392
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Speaker 1: down into that hole. And how do I know that?

393
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Speaker 1: You know, the investigators reported that one of the first

394
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Speaker 1: things that they noticed when they got out there to

395
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:37,760
Speaker 1: that site, and they had been given the information that

396
00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:41,040
Speaker 1: this is where these two little angels were, they looked

397
00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:45,160
Speaker 1: at the thief hatch where Bella's body had been deposited,

398
00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:48,720
Speaker 1: and a right along the rim there, some of her

399
00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:52,520
Speaker 1: hair was caught in that. And it wasn't just like

400
00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:54,840
Speaker 1: a strand I don't think it was like a clump

401
00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:59,399
Speaker 1: of hair. Now, how's that accomplished? Well, her body is

402
00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:02,239
Speaker 1: obviously you just think about how big eight inches is

403
00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:05,879
Speaker 1: that's the diameter on this thing. How in fact do

404
00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:09,280
Speaker 1: you drive the body of a four year old through

405
00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:13,520
Speaker 1: this tiny opening? Well, it was hard and The evidence

406
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:17,280
Speaker 1: of that is the fact that her hair was left

407
00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:20,560
Speaker 1: behind in the edge, which means that it was torn away.

408
00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:22,880
Speaker 1: It was ripped away as he's jamming her down through

409
00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:26,639
Speaker 1: this hole. And another thing this demonstrates when they finally

410
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:33,240
Speaker 1: do examine Bella's body, She's got scrapes where the edge,

411
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:37,080
Speaker 1: the metal edge of that thief hatch caught hold and

412
00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:40,119
Speaker 1: it left these marks on her body. There have been

413
00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:43,320
Speaker 1: broken bones. Joe, we think about what he would have

414
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:46,160
Speaker 1: had to have done to get Bella through that thief hatch.

415
00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:50,359
Speaker 1: Isn't that inappropriate appropriate term? Considering this guy stole the

416
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:54,639
Speaker 1: life of these two little, precious girls. He would have

417
00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:58,280
Speaker 1: had to have taken Bella probably would not have needed

418
00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:01,399
Speaker 1: to break bone, but he would have at her shoulders

419
00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:05,320
Speaker 1: kind of folded her in toward the center in order

420
00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:08,280
Speaker 1: to facilitate getting her down. She probably would have went

421
00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:12,560
Speaker 1: in head first. And as he's pressing her down through

422
00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:15,919
Speaker 1: this opening, through this thief hatch, the metal edges of

423
00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:19,679
Speaker 1: this thing called hold of the tissue the skin, and

424
00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:22,480
Speaker 1: it raked it away, and it left these scratches on

425
00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:25,320
Speaker 1: her body as she fell through this thing. Finally, I'm

426
00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:27,359
Speaker 1: sure that it took a tremendous amount of force on

427
00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:30,400
Speaker 1: his part to get her down there. And looking at

428
00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:33,360
Speaker 1: the drop from this thief hatch that you're talking about, Joe,

429
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:35,880
Speaker 1: as he stepped the bodies down, you said that most

430
00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:37,840
Speaker 1: likely he would not have had the broken bones to

431
00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:42,240
Speaker 1: get the children inside those catches. But what about the drop.

432
00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:45,280
Speaker 1: We don't necessarily know how far they fell if they

433
00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:49,800
Speaker 1: went right into the contents of the oil tank, so

434
00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:52,200
Speaker 1: would there have been broken bones from the drop itself.

435
00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:55,040
Speaker 1: I think that the fact that they're falling, though it

436
00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:58,640
Speaker 1: is a kind of a height. You know, we're looking

437
00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:01,240
Speaker 1: at maybe fifteen to eighteen feet and height that they're

438
00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:05,960
Speaker 1: falling from the opening of the seashatch. They're splashing down

439
00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:11,560
Speaker 1: into a fluid environment. So that's actually going to break

440
00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:14,160
Speaker 1: the fall to a certain degree, provided that they don't

441
00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:17,200
Speaker 1: strike the bottom of this tank, you know, the bare bottom,

442
00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:19,240
Speaker 1: you know. I think that there's enough of a layer

443
00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:22,560
Speaker 1: of fluid there that kind of cradle the bodies when

444
00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:25,280
Speaker 1: they hit. So you're not going to see any kind

445
00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:28,560
Speaker 1: of fracturing or impact injuries necessarily related to this. And

446
00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:31,040
Speaker 1: one other thing you have to keep in mind, there's

447
00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:33,520
Speaker 1: not going to be any hemorrhage related to the fall either,

448
00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:37,000
Speaker 1: you know, because this is a postmorn event, he had

449
00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:39,120
Speaker 1: killed these girls before he put them in there, So

450
00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:43,080
Speaker 1: I don't know that we would ever really know, and

451
00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:47,120
Speaker 1: you know, not to mention the bodies were greatly compromised,

452
00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:51,600
Speaker 1: Their status was greatly compromised when it came to the

453
00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:54,440
Speaker 1: medical examiner or the corner being able to examine these

454
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:56,840
Speaker 1: bodies once they got them back to the morgue. That

455
00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:59,080
Speaker 1: leads us to the next point in our discussion, Joe,

456
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:01,920
Speaker 1: is what happened to the bodies of those two little

457
00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:06,880
Speaker 1: girls once they were inside those oil tanks. How caustic

458
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:10,320
Speaker 1: is oil and what is it going to do to

459
00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:14,160
Speaker 1: human tissue that is left in there for any period

460
00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:18,040
Speaker 1: of time. The horrific part to this is that, first off,

461
00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:22,000
Speaker 1: when you go into this environment, and this is raw petroleum,

462
00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:23,520
Speaker 1: and there's a lot of stuff that comes off of

463
00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:27,080
Speaker 1: raw petroleum that we create in this world that we use.

464
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:30,840
Speaker 1: It's not just gasoline, and it's not just lubricantness all

465
00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:34,160
Speaker 1: kinds of stuff that it's used for. But something that's

466
00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:41,000
Speaker 1: naturally occurring is what's for two, is aromatic hydrocarbons, and

467
00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:45,720
Speaker 1: in this environment, in this environment, two substances stick out.

468
00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:49,720
Speaker 1: One's called taluween and another's called benzene. And if you've

469
00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:51,640
Speaker 1: ever heard of benzene, you know that it can be

470
00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:57,920
Speaker 1: used to polish things with. It is very lethal taluween

471
00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:02,320
Speaker 1: as well, and it causes things to break down very quickly.

472
00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:05,400
Speaker 1: It eats into tissue, not to the same degree as

473
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:08,959
Speaker 1: certain assets do, but it causes a tissue to become

474
00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:16,280
Speaker 1: greatly compromised. It softens things, it begins to promote this

475
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:19,520
Speaker 1: kind of coming apart, and then you marry that up

476
00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:24,240
Speaker 1: with natural decompositional process, and these bodies are going to

477
00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:27,000
Speaker 1: wind up and what's referred to as kind of a

478
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:30,560
Speaker 1: macerated state, which means that the decomposition has gotten to

479
00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:32,560
Speaker 1: the point, this chemical effect that has gotten to the

480
00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:37,840
Speaker 1: point where the structural integrity of the body, it's really hard.

481
00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:42,920
Speaker 1: The structural integrity of the body is so compromised that

482
00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:48,280
Speaker 1: assessing the body at the autopsy is going to be

483
00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:51,480
Speaker 1: quite the chore. So are you telling me, then, Joe,

484
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:56,160
Speaker 1: that their bones would have impliable. I don't know that

485
00:30:56,560 --> 00:31:00,360
Speaker 1: the bones would have necessarily been pliable in this I

486
00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:04,040
Speaker 1: know that the soft tissue surrounding them though, just imagine,

487
00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:07,760
Speaker 1: if you will, the worst sunburn that you've ever seen

488
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:10,920
Speaker 1: in your life, where tissue is beginning to peel away.

489
00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:14,320
Speaker 1: It's almost like a chemical burn that's taking taking place,

490
00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:16,360
Speaker 1: and you would have seen the layers and layers of

491
00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:20,760
Speaker 1: tissue that would have been coming off just by touching it. Now,

492
00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:24,360
Speaker 1: it's not going to necessarily appear that way initially, but

493
00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:28,280
Speaker 1: when you begin to move these bodies around, the bodies

494
00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:31,360
Speaker 1: are very fragile, so tissue will begin to fall off

495
00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:34,400
Speaker 1: of the bone, if you will. In certain cases deepended

496
00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:37,719
Speaker 1: upon the length of exposure, they have to these horrible

497
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:41,040
Speaker 1: chemicals there that they're found in. You know, they had

498
00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:45,240
Speaker 1: to drain both of these tanks when this occurred. They

499
00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:48,280
Speaker 1: had to call the EPA out because this is such

500
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:53,560
Speaker 1: a dangerous situation. So not only did this guy murder

501
00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:59,920
Speaker 1: his children and his wife, but where he placed Belle

502
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:05,640
Speaker 1: and Celeste is such a volatile environment that all of

503
00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:08,600
Speaker 1: the workers, all of the investigators, the people that work

504
00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:12,360
Speaker 1: out there that have control over these tanks, because they

505
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:15,400
Speaker 1: had to be drained, all these people were exposed to

506
00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:18,560
Speaker 1: these chemicals. And just think about that just for a second.

507
00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:21,880
Speaker 1: This is the ultimate in a selfish act, you know,

508
00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:25,360
Speaker 1: and nobody really talks about this. These investigators that are

509
00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:27,920
Speaker 1: out there and the workers that are out there are

510
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:31,320
Speaker 1: traumatized to the fact that they're having to extricate these

511
00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:33,480
Speaker 1: little girls out of these tanks, after they know they've

512
00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:36,360
Speaker 1: been sitting out there all night long, after the tanks

513
00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:38,480
Speaker 1: have been drained, and they got to go out in

514
00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:40,360
Speaker 1: there and do that. But they've got to put on

515
00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:44,560
Speaker 1: hazmat suits in order to facilitate this. It was a

516
00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:48,840
Speaker 1: monumental undertaking and I can tell you these investigators and workers,

517
00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:50,800
Speaker 1: they're going to be scarred by this for the rest

518
00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:53,400
Speaker 1: of their life. Joe, I've heard you talk about this

519
00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:56,280
Speaker 1: case before, and one of the things that always rings

520
00:32:56,280 --> 00:33:01,960
Speaker 1: out for me is the phrase, the term degloved. I've

521
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:06,280
Speaker 1: heard you reference that word in regards to these girls.

522
00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:10,080
Speaker 1: Explain that to me. We've got two layers of skin

523
00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:14,920
Speaker 1: we commonly think about. We think about the epidermist, which

524
00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:17,920
Speaker 1: means tops, the top layer. You know. It's like when

525
00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:20,280
Speaker 1: you get a blister on your hand. That's the top

526
00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:22,800
Speaker 1: layer of the skin that's rising ups, filled with fluid.

527
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:25,920
Speaker 1: And then you've got the dermist, which is that underlying surface.

528
00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:29,840
Speaker 1: Beneath the epidermist. It's a bit more robust, it's thicker

529
00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:33,080
Speaker 1: with deep clubbing. It can happen in a couple of ways.

530
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:35,560
Speaker 1: You find it a lot in water environments where you

531
00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:38,040
Speaker 1: have a body that's found out in a lake or

532
00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:41,160
Speaker 1: a river and maybe the ocean, and that skin begins

533
00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:44,720
Speaker 1: to come away, that dermist begins to come away from

534
00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:48,960
Speaker 1: the underlying connected tissue that you can actually peel a

535
00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:57,760
Speaker 1: an entire hands. You can actually peel the surface of

536
00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:01,680
Speaker 1: tissue off of a human hand, and that's where we

537
00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:03,760
Speaker 1: get this term de glove, and it's like you're peeling

538
00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:06,680
Speaker 1: a glove off of a hand. And this can happen

539
00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:10,640
Speaker 1: over the entire body. When you're talking about exposing them

540
00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:14,000
Speaker 1: to things like benzene and taluweene and this sort of thing.

541
00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:17,920
Speaker 1: The whole body can become degloves so that the tissue,

542
00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:22,680
Speaker 1: that outer lay of tissue becomes peeled away. And you

543
00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:27,239
Speaker 1: can actually appreciate this. It's almost like the skin it's

544
00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:30,960
Speaker 1: just being kind of rolled off, if you will. And

545
00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:33,600
Speaker 1: you know, I've seen this in environments when you bring

546
00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:37,680
Speaker 1: bodies into the mark that have been exposed to chemicals

547
00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:40,320
Speaker 1: like this, you have to be very very careful because

548
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:42,920
Speaker 1: it's all very fragile. It'll come off in an instant.

549
00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:45,640
Speaker 1: You can actually take your gloved hand you have a

550
00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:48,080
Speaker 1: rubber glove on in the morgue and touch it to

551
00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:50,960
Speaker 1: the surface of these bodies, and sometimes when you pull

552
00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:53,880
Speaker 1: your hand away or that tissue comes off on your

553
00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:58,440
Speaker 1: gloved hands and it's it really magnifies this in that

554
00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:02,320
Speaker 1: sense that and they got these bodies back to the morgue.

555
00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:05,200
Speaker 1: This is something that we're having to deal with. There's

556
00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:08,160
Speaker 1: a horrible smell that comes along with this. You would

557
00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:10,839
Speaker 1: probably have to wear some type of not just regular mask,

558
00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:14,560
Speaker 1: probably a respirator if you're going to do this examination.

559
00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:18,480
Speaker 1: And the evidence that you're talking about here is so fine, Jackie.

560
00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:20,359
Speaker 1: I mean we're talking about you know, we talked about

561
00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:24,040
Speaker 1: petiquii or the eyes even preserved well enough that tissue

562
00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:26,319
Speaker 1: around the eyes so that you can see if there

563
00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:30,439
Speaker 1: are any particular hemorrhages. Are you able to appreciate the

564
00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:33,440
Speaker 1: neck to the degree you need to see if there

565
00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:37,000
Speaker 1: was any kind of hemorrhage relative to manual strangulation in

566
00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:40,279
Speaker 1: of course, in Bella's case, they were able to see

567
00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:42,680
Speaker 1: this trauma to the tongue and that little piece of tissue,

568
00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:45,719
Speaker 1: the fregulum in her lip. They were able to appreciate that,

569
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:52,240
Speaker 1: but a lot of other evidence is gone. I'm Joseph

570
00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:56,000
Speaker 1: Scott Morgan and this is Body Backs