WEBVTT - Ep. 635: Working on Grizzly Bears 0:00:08.760 --> 0:00:13.320 If this is the Meat Eater Podcast coming at you shirtless, severely, 0:00:13.480 --> 0:00:15.720 bug bitten, and in my case, underwear. 0:00:15.360 --> 0:00:19.360 Listeningcast, you can't predict anything. 0:00:20.120 --> 0:00:22.800 The Meat Eater Podcast is brought to you by first Light. 0:00:23.000 --> 0:00:26.079 Whether you're checking trail cams, hanging deer stands, or scouting 0:00:26.120 --> 0:00:29.560 for el, First Light has performance apparel to support every 0:00:29.640 --> 0:00:32.400 hunter in every environment. Check it out at first light 0:00:32.520 --> 0:00:35.640 dot com. F I R S T l I t 0:00:35.800 --> 0:00:43.520 e dot com. Joined today by Dusty Lassiter, former Wyoming 0:00:43.640 --> 0:00:47.120 game and fish bear management specialists, the keyword there being former. 0:00:48.680 --> 0:00:49.760 Yeah. 0:00:49.880 --> 0:00:51.840 I love the agency guys. But the problem with having 0:00:51.880 --> 0:00:54.440 agency guys on to talk about wildlife management is they 0:00:54.480 --> 0:00:56.560 got to worry about them getting in trouble. Yeah. 0:00:56.600 --> 0:00:58.280 I don't have to worry about getting in trouble anymore. 0:00:58.520 --> 0:01:00.520 Real, there's no trouble. Nothing can do it to you. 0:01:01.560 --> 0:01:02.840 Let the air out of your tires. 0:01:03.280 --> 0:01:05.440 Yeah, write me a ticket. 0:01:05.480 --> 0:01:09.680 I guess no. Again, I have nothing, But you know, 0:01:10.000 --> 0:01:12.080 I have like a lot of respect and the admiration 0:01:12.200 --> 0:01:15.200 for agency biologists and game wardens Like you know, I 0:01:15.240 --> 0:01:18.680 love it. So many of them are driven by passion 0:01:18.840 --> 0:01:21.319 and a desire to do good. But when talking about 0:01:21.360 --> 0:01:25.080 policy just gets tricky for him because you know, they 0:01:25.880 --> 0:01:27.000 they get reprimanded. 0:01:27.080 --> 0:01:30.399 Yeah, you get muzzled a little bit, and you know 0:01:30.480 --> 0:01:33.679 you're trying to walk the party line a little bit, 0:01:33.760 --> 0:01:34.959 you know, the department line. 0:01:35.120 --> 0:01:39.600 Yeah. Uh, give everybody a run through of what you've 0:01:39.600 --> 0:01:42.120 done in your career around grizzly bears and wolves. 0:01:41.840 --> 0:01:46.280 And oh man, So I started in twenty ten and 0:01:47.640 --> 0:01:51.559 I was just supposed to be on for one fall. 0:01:51.600 --> 0:01:54.840 In one spring, I got hired on because one of 0:01:54.840 --> 0:01:59.440 my coworkers was going back to college. And that was 0:01:59.480 --> 0:02:02.480 the busiest year that we'd ever had. We caught sixty 0:02:02.480 --> 0:02:06.360 seven grizzly bears in Wyoming outside of Yellstowe National Park. 0:02:07.080 --> 0:02:11.920 And then in that year, so damn man. Yeah, yeah, it. 0:02:11.840 --> 0:02:13.320 Was all in barrel traps. 0:02:14.200 --> 0:02:16.640 Yeah. We we call them culvert traps, but they're really 0:02:16.880 --> 0:02:21.160 big square box traps. Now the Montana guys still use 0:02:21.240 --> 0:02:24.320 those culverts, but it's a pain in the butt to 0:02:24.400 --> 0:02:25.760 pull a bear in and out of them. 0:02:26.560 --> 0:02:29.919 Yeah remember that round, Remember that video Callahan climbing in there, 0:02:30.120 --> 0:02:32.880 climbing one of them tubes of that bearris basically like 0:02:32.960 --> 0:02:34.640 laid out on it. Yeah. 0:02:34.720 --> 0:02:37.240 Yeah, yeah, so we we I think we dealt with 0:02:37.360 --> 0:02:40.200 enough bears. We came up with a better trap design. Honestly, 0:02:40.760 --> 0:02:41.880 what do you what were you guys? 0:02:42.280 --> 0:02:44.480 Man? I got so many questions go on. I just 0:02:44.560 --> 0:02:46.360 remember that later. I want to ask you about what 0:02:46.480 --> 0:02:48.600 kind of how you like, what your favorite bait and 0:02:48.639 --> 0:02:50.800 stuff is. But keep going. Yeah, so you got on. 0:02:51.000 --> 0:02:52.880 You guys started just hammering bears. 0:02:53.200 --> 0:02:56.639 Yeah, it was just call after call. I would try 0:02:56.680 --> 0:02:58.120 to go home just to take a nap, and I 0:02:58.120 --> 0:03:01.160 would get flagged down on the road somebody being like, 0:03:01.919 --> 0:03:04.600 I got a I got a bear. Actually, one of 0:03:04.639 --> 0:03:08.040 those guys was Jim Zumbo. You know. He flagged me 0:03:08.080 --> 0:03:10.440 down on the road and he's like, yeah, I just 0:03:10.480 --> 0:03:13.600 got back from Alaska. I'd killed my twentieth black bear, 0:03:14.160 --> 0:03:17.239 and he was he was smoking some salmon and a 0:03:17.280 --> 0:03:20.720 grizzly bear came by and smashed his salmon smoker. 0:03:21.000 --> 0:03:22.120 Oh I got it, so. 0:03:23.840 --> 0:03:25.040 Yeah, so I started. 0:03:25.200 --> 0:03:29.920 Jim Zumbo, Yeah, came home from Alaska, was smoking salmon 0:03:29.919 --> 0:03:32.640 that he brought home from Alaska, and a grizzly showed 0:03:32.720 --> 0:03:34.520 up and smashed Jim zumbole smoker. 0:03:34.680 --> 0:03:39.640 Yeah exactly, yep, yep, so pretty legit kind of funny. 0:03:39.920 --> 0:03:40.160 Yeah. 0:03:40.280 --> 0:03:44.160 Yeah, and I wanted one up with my George Bush 0:03:44.200 --> 0:03:49.320 story h joke. 0:03:51.800 --> 0:03:53.840 Yeah. So that was just a really busy season and 0:03:54.160 --> 0:03:58.080 there was a need for more help, so they hired 0:03:58.080 --> 0:04:00.000 me on another season. 0:04:00.480 --> 0:04:04.680 And because you were a big game guide, yeah I was. 0:04:05.160 --> 0:04:08.480 You know, I went to the University Wyoming, got finance degree, 0:04:08.680 --> 0:04:12.800 came home and just loved where I lived. And when 0:04:12.800 --> 0:04:14.800 I came home, I was working on the thoroughfare as 0:04:14.840 --> 0:04:17.719 a guide, and you know, just doing construction, trying to 0:04:17.720 --> 0:04:18.560 make ends meet, and. 0:04:20.120 --> 0:04:21.880 Home as Cody, Home as Cody. 0:04:21.920 --> 0:04:25.840 That's where I grew up. And I was just wrong place, 0:04:25.920 --> 0:04:29.920 wrong time, honestly, because there weren't a lot of people 0:04:30.000 --> 0:04:33.040 that went to college and came back and I had 0:04:33.080 --> 0:04:35.760 a lot of knowledge and skill about horses in the 0:04:35.760 --> 0:04:38.440 back country, and you know, my life was immersed in 0:04:39.160 --> 0:04:42.400 wildlife and bears growing up, and my parents worked for 0:04:42.440 --> 0:04:45.640 outfitters and you know, they were stopping in at the 0:04:45.680 --> 0:04:49.520 house and telling crazy stories and I was just sucked in. 0:04:49.680 --> 0:04:54.240 So that's why I came home. And I wasn't intending 0:04:54.279 --> 0:04:58.119 to get into bear work, and I just fell into 0:04:58.160 --> 0:05:02.559 it and the timing was right, and yeah, they hired 0:05:02.600 --> 0:05:05.279 me on and you know, that first year I saw 0:05:05.320 --> 0:05:08.839 twenty five bears, and then that next season I was 0:05:08.880 --> 0:05:13.120 in on another twenty five Grizzly captures and had fifty 0:05:13.160 --> 0:05:18.320 under my belt and a pretty quick, you know amount 0:05:18.360 --> 0:05:18.720 of time. 0:05:18.920 --> 0:05:21.400 So were you doing all the were you doing all 0:05:21.440 --> 0:05:25.839 the relocations on those two? Like how many are euthanized 0:05:25.839 --> 0:05:26.960 and how many are relocated? 0:05:27.320 --> 0:05:30.120 So at the time, my boss was a guy named 0:05:30.160 --> 0:05:34.560 Mark Persino, and we were really still in the recovery 0:05:34.600 --> 0:05:38.719 phase with these bears, and we probably only euthanized one 0:05:38.760 --> 0:05:42.200 out of five when I started, and they were in 0:05:42.279 --> 0:05:49.000 really bad shape. You know, they'd been repeat offenders. Never 0:05:50.200 --> 0:05:53.599 it's never the three strikes and you're out. People say 0:05:53.640 --> 0:05:55.479 that all the time, and I get so sick of that. 0:05:55.480 --> 0:05:56.080 That's not true. 0:05:56.160 --> 0:05:59.839 No, that's not true. It's not California. So but yeah, 0:05:59.880 --> 0:06:02.160 there were some bears that, you know, I'd been in 0:06:02.360 --> 0:06:05.880 multiple livestock conflicts that were removing or I caught a 0:06:05.920 --> 0:06:09.560 female that year that her back leg was broke and 0:06:09.600 --> 0:06:12.640 it was six inches shorter than her other back leg, 0:06:13.040 --> 0:06:14.880 and I had the bone in my office and it's 0:06:14.920 --> 0:06:19.000 just a you know, melded piece of calcium. 0:06:19.240 --> 0:06:21.240 How do you think she broke her leg, No idea. 0:06:21.320 --> 0:06:22.240 I always wondered that. 0:06:23.080 --> 0:06:25.080 You know, on a bear like that, on a grizzy 0:06:25.160 --> 0:06:30.000 like that, it's in heart, it's in bad shape, it's desperate, 0:06:30.080 --> 0:06:33.800 and it's not gonna You're not gonna you know what 0:06:33.920 --> 0:06:35.840 the word to use. You're not going to rehabilitate it. 0:06:36.000 --> 0:06:39.279 No, it just wasn't going to be successful relocating that 0:06:39.360 --> 0:06:42.720 kind of bear. And she was emaciated, and she actually 0:06:42.760 --> 0:06:47.479 had a yearling that we didn't know about at the time. 0:06:47.880 --> 0:06:49.840 You know, she was she was trying to orphan a 0:06:50.720 --> 0:06:54.800 yearling bear because she was not even producing milk. She 0:06:54.880 --> 0:06:56.560 was in such poor physical shape. 0:06:56.760 --> 0:07:00.080 Got it. You say she was trying to orphan it. 0:07:00.839 --> 0:07:04.039 Yeah, I mean it was. It was following her around, 0:07:04.160 --> 0:07:08.839 but she's not providing for it at all. And we 0:07:08.960 --> 0:07:12.840 ended up catching that bear too, and and we relocated 0:07:12.880 --> 0:07:17.600 that bear, but she just wasn't a good candidate for relocation. 0:07:18.040 --> 0:07:21.040 Yeah. And when you relocate the grizzlies, how do you 0:07:21.360 --> 0:07:23.800 how do you figure out where to try because you 0:07:23.840 --> 0:07:27.760 got to put him so far away from you got 0:07:27.800 --> 0:07:31.880 to put them so far away, Yeah, to reduce the 0:07:31.920 --> 0:07:34.520 temptation you're going to get in trouble again. And that's 0:07:34.560 --> 0:07:36.880 and that's got to be like very time consuming. 0:07:37.600 --> 0:07:42.760 Yeah, it definitely takes some man power, but you're trying 0:07:42.800 --> 0:07:46.280 to take it as far away from the conflict as possible. 0:07:46.520 --> 0:07:50.760 And there's really about six relocation sites in Wyoming that 0:07:50.880 --> 0:07:54.880 we use, you know, And that kind of had changed 0:07:54.960 --> 0:07:57.440 over the time that I'd been at the department. We 0:07:57.840 --> 0:08:00.760 started doing some relocation that weren't as. 0:08:00.680 --> 0:08:04.000 Far and use helicopters to dump them off. 0:08:04.440 --> 0:08:07.200 We don't. We had one bear trap that you could 0:08:07.480 --> 0:08:11.760 take off the wheels and haul with the helicopter, But 0:08:12.680 --> 0:08:14.520 and the time that I was there, the eleven years 0:08:14.560 --> 0:08:15.600 I was there, we never did that. 0:08:16.120 --> 0:08:18.640 Yeah, now tell me how you catch one. 0:08:20.200 --> 0:08:23.080 So most of the time you're using a culvert trap, 0:08:23.120 --> 0:08:25.600 and you want to get that thing as low to 0:08:25.640 --> 0:08:27.800 the ground as possible. You want to set it as 0:08:27.840 --> 0:08:34.240 close to the conflict as possible, and you just put 0:08:34.240 --> 0:08:35.920 a piece of bait in the front of that thing, 0:08:36.080 --> 0:08:39.199 usually a road killed deer with a string that goes 0:08:39.920 --> 0:08:44.360 up up the front wall around the top, and then 0:08:44.480 --> 0:08:47.360 it's sitting on a pair of ice scripts and the 0:08:47.400 --> 0:08:51.080 door is sitting on those vice scripts. So bear comes 0:08:51.120 --> 0:08:54.079 in pulls that bait springs, the vice grip springs the 0:08:54.160 --> 0:08:57.120 vice script and the door shuts and there's a pin 0:08:57.240 --> 0:09:01.680 that shoots. Yeah, a lot of times we use beaver 0:09:01.800 --> 0:09:04.640 caster is always my favorite thing to use. A little lure, Yeah, 0:09:04.720 --> 0:09:07.360 a little bit of lure in there. If it's ket 0:09:07.440 --> 0:09:11.680 in on fruit, we'd use apples and watermelon things like that. 0:09:11.920 --> 0:09:13.160 Stick that back of the trap. 0:09:13.760 --> 0:09:16.800 Yeah, even like a trail into it a lot of times. 0:09:17.080 --> 0:09:19.080 A lot of times you make a drag and they'll 0:09:19.080 --> 0:09:20.199 follow a drag for a. 0:09:20.160 --> 0:09:24.280 Long long ways, like drag a road kill deer, right, yep? 0:09:25.800 --> 0:09:27.680 How far might you drag that deer to make a 0:09:27.720 --> 0:09:28.280 cent trail? 0:09:28.920 --> 0:09:32.360 I mean, my old boss had done it a couple 0:09:32.360 --> 0:09:36.000 of miles and cock bears running a couple miles on them. Yeah, 0:09:36.200 --> 0:09:38.560 and they're finding now with these GPS callers, that a 0:09:38.559 --> 0:09:42.480 bear can smell a carcass ten to fifteen miles away, 0:09:42.520 --> 0:09:45.359 and we'll just start blining it for a carcass. 0:09:45.600 --> 0:09:45.800 Yeah. 0:09:45.800 --> 0:09:48.480 I followed a grizzly bear track and the bob wants 0:09:48.600 --> 0:09:51.240 nine miles to a I don't know how far he started, 0:09:51.280 --> 0:09:53.360 but I followed the tracks for nine miles in front 0:09:53.400 --> 0:09:54.480 of me to a moose carcass. 0:09:54.600 --> 0:09:57.720 Yeah, that was impressive. Yeah, they got a pretty good sniffer. 0:09:57.880 --> 0:10:01.320 Yeah. I've told the story to anyone that'll listen to it. 0:10:01.640 --> 0:10:05.600 But we're one time camped up on the Arctic slope 0:10:05.800 --> 0:10:07.920 and you know of the off the north slope of 0:10:07.960 --> 0:10:10.080 the Brooks Range. Yeah, and we were camped where a 0:10:10.120 --> 0:10:13.280 creek came into a bigger river. And one morning we 0:10:13.320 --> 0:10:16.600 got up and walked three miles up that tributary and 0:10:16.679 --> 0:10:20.920 killed caribou okay, spent the day up there, carried it 0:10:20.960 --> 0:10:23.480 down that tributary to our camp. That night, we're sitting 0:10:23.480 --> 0:10:26.560 in our camp and here comes a grizzly down the 0:10:26.600 --> 0:10:29.600 gravel bar, digging roots. You see him move in, digging, 0:10:29.679 --> 0:10:33.000 move and digging. He gets to the mouth of that tributary. 0:10:33.040 --> 0:10:35.160 It's kind of like a slight little canyon. He gets 0:10:35.160 --> 0:10:37.240 in the mouth of that tributary and stands up like 0:10:37.320 --> 0:10:41.200 someone shocked him wow, waves his nose in the air, 0:10:41.240 --> 0:10:43.920 and took off at a full run. So I don't 0:10:43.960 --> 0:10:47.240 I can't tell you for sure, you know what I mean, 0:10:47.280 --> 0:10:49.640 But it was like there was no discussing it. It was 0:10:49.679 --> 0:10:52.200 like that sound of a bit smells that cariboo. 0:10:51.880 --> 0:10:53.880 Yeah, I'm sure that's exactly what happened. 0:10:54.040 --> 0:10:56.319 Yeah, coming down that coming down that creek, and that's 0:10:56.320 --> 0:10:57.880 only three miles and you're talking about. 0:10:57.640 --> 0:11:01.320 How far GPS colors are saying in ten to fifteen. 0:11:01.160 --> 0:11:02.960 What do you what do you see on a GPS 0:11:03.040 --> 0:11:05.600 collar that suggests to you that a grizzly is onto something? 0:11:05.840 --> 0:11:07.959 Oh, it's meandering and then all of a sudden it's 0:11:07.960 --> 0:11:08.800 a straight line. 0:11:09.400 --> 0:11:09.679 You know. 0:11:09.880 --> 0:11:14.199 It's like, just like you're talking about, there wasn't any 0:11:15.160 --> 0:11:16.920 second thoughts in that bear's mind. 0:11:16.800 --> 0:11:19.320 Got it? And then he's just going there, he's going. Yeah, 0:11:20.040 --> 0:11:21.719 there's a lot of there's a lot of bruh on 0:11:21.800 --> 0:11:23.720 the news right now. There's always been a bear, there's 0:11:23.720 --> 0:11:28.520 always been a very polarizing bear. Yeah, in the polarizing 0:11:28.559 --> 0:11:35.040 bear in the Yellowstone National Park area. Yeah, goes by 0:11:35.080 --> 0:11:37.680 the handle three nine nine, which I always like because 0:11:38.080 --> 0:11:39.520 I like it when they you know, when they give 0:11:39.559 --> 0:11:41.840 the animals like a name like pedals or something, then 0:11:41.880 --> 0:11:46.400 you know it's trouble. So if it has its research number. 0:11:46.280 --> 0:11:47.840 There's some clinical detachment there. 0:11:47.920 --> 0:11:51.920 Yeah. A research number allows the citizens at large to 0:11:53.200 --> 0:11:56.559 stay a little usually allows citizens at large to stay 0:11:56.559 --> 0:12:02.640 a little chilled out aboutelebrity animals. But three nine nine 0:12:02.840 --> 0:12:06.520 it was. It might as well have been named cookie, right. 0:12:06.559 --> 0:12:10.520 It just got really famous. And the American public, particularly 0:12:10.600 --> 0:12:15.280 those who are very unfamiliar with wildlife, will have this 0:12:15.440 --> 0:12:22.120 view that they look at an individual animal and they 0:12:22.160 --> 0:12:27.160 see it with like like crystalline clarity, that one, and 0:12:27.200 --> 0:12:30.400 they cease to view it as in context of its 0:12:30.440 --> 0:12:33.920 like species at large, meaning you could have eight hundred 0:12:33.920 --> 0:12:38.000 grizzlies in the area and it's kind of whatever, but 0:12:38.240 --> 0:12:42.800 that one, nothing better happened to, right, right, They're not 0:12:43.760 --> 0:12:45.599 it's not like it. They don't have an awareness of 0:12:45.640 --> 0:12:48.920 the population at large. They have an awareness of that one. 0:12:49.679 --> 0:12:52.640 I'm not lecturing you. I'm just trying to update listeners. Yeah, 0:12:53.280 --> 0:12:56.119 when making an analogy about it, I'll make the analogy 0:12:56.160 --> 0:13:01.120 of that someone like a hunter, some one in the concert, 0:13:01.240 --> 0:13:05.320 like someone in the wildlife hunter based wildlife conservation might 0:13:05.440 --> 0:13:12.240 view habitat as an apple tree. And if this apple 0:13:12.280 --> 0:13:15.000 tree is taken care of, it will continuously produce apples, 0:13:15.440 --> 0:13:18.240 and the apples are someone expendable, some get eaten, some 0:13:18.400 --> 0:13:21.760 dying rot take care of the tree in perpetuity, it'll 0:13:22.200 --> 0:13:31.079 put apples out animal rights people and preservation minded preservationist 0:13:31.120 --> 0:13:34.720 minded people aren't that interested in the apple tree. But 0:13:34.840 --> 0:13:39.040 now and then there's an apple that really catches their eye. Yeah, 0:13:39.080 --> 0:13:43.080 and they are very concerned about what happens to that apple. 0:13:43.880 --> 0:13:46.079 Yeah, it's a good analogy. 0:13:46.320 --> 0:13:51.960 I guess this bear became that apple. Yeah, bear three 0:13:52.080 --> 0:13:52.560 nine nine. 0:13:52.640 --> 0:13:57.240 It's usually an apple that photographs well and it's pretty dependable. 0:13:58.080 --> 0:14:00.400 It's an apple that shows up again and again. 0:14:01.120 --> 0:14:03.800 Yeah, you know, or it would be like a moose 0:14:04.120 --> 0:14:09.720 that's piebald. So because moose, you know, generally, people aren't 0:14:09.760 --> 0:14:11.640 able to distinguish one from the other. Then you get 0:14:11.640 --> 0:14:14.199 a moose in some neighborhood that as a white splotch 0:14:14.240 --> 0:14:18.040 on it, and then people are able to put individuality 0:14:18.080 --> 0:14:20.840 to it. And then someone gets that moose and it 0:14:20.880 --> 0:14:26.440 causes a whole shit show. Three ninety nine. The bear's 0:14:26.720 --> 0:14:28.560 had books written about it. It just got hit by 0:14:28.560 --> 0:14:31.840 a car. Yeah, And our little preamble chat I brought 0:14:31.920 --> 0:14:36.600 up to you that it's that bear now is getting 0:14:36.640 --> 0:14:41.760 its final it's being put to rest with much fanfare 0:14:41.800 --> 0:14:44.440 and consternation. Yeah. I mentioned it to you, and you 0:14:44.480 --> 0:14:48.440 had a comment about your view on on this particular bear. 0:14:48.520 --> 0:14:50.600 You didn't deal with it professionally. 0:14:50.000 --> 0:14:52.760 Correct, No, I know her type though. 0:14:52.960 --> 0:14:57.880 Yeah, tell me about that bear. What that like? You 0:14:57.960 --> 0:14:59.240 mentioned a thing about management. 0:14:59.560 --> 0:15:04.760 Yeah, yeah, I think that's poor wildlife management. And we 0:15:04.840 --> 0:15:07.400 learned this lesson early on with a bear named one 0:15:07.440 --> 0:15:09.760 oh four. So before three ninety nine, there was a 0:15:09.760 --> 0:15:11.400 bear named the number was. 0:15:11.400 --> 0:15:11.840 One O four. 0:15:11.960 --> 0:15:14.520 It was a celebrity bear, celebrity bear, another shiny apple, 0:15:15.000 --> 0:15:20.720 if you will. And my predecessors tried to relocate that 0:15:20.800 --> 0:15:28.520 bear mover she got so not trap shy, but trap savvy, 0:15:28.960 --> 0:15:33.080 not savvy like she enjoyed traps. You could you could 0:15:33.160 --> 0:15:35.880 drive down the road with the door open and she'd 0:15:35.920 --> 0:15:38.200 come running down the road and jump in the trap 0:15:38.240 --> 0:15:39.120 and you would catch her. 0:15:39.360 --> 0:15:41.560 You know. She was that kind of freaking like I 0:15:41.600 --> 0:15:43.359 was just associated it with food. 0:15:43.200 --> 0:15:46.200 Yeah, because there was so many positive experiences jumping in 0:15:46.280 --> 0:15:46.920 traps and. 0:15:47.040 --> 0:15:48.600 You eat the whole damn deer and then some guy 0:15:48.640 --> 0:15:52.400 that's yeat yeah exactly, and you walk back home. I 0:15:52.440 --> 0:15:53.480 get it, I get it. 0:15:53.960 --> 0:15:58.960 Yeah. So we just learned early on that those habituated 0:15:59.000 --> 0:16:02.560 bears aren't successful. And she also got hit by a 0:16:02.600 --> 0:16:06.440 vehicle one oh four and you know, I always thought 0:16:06.440 --> 0:16:08.440 that was gonna happen to three ninety nine. It took 0:16:08.480 --> 0:16:10.040 longer than I would have guessed. 0:16:10.200 --> 0:16:11.800 You pictured to getting struck by a car. 0:16:12.040 --> 0:16:14.120 Yeah, and one of her cubs got hit by a car, 0:16:15.640 --> 0:16:15.840 you know. 0:16:15.960 --> 0:16:17.240 And really. 0:16:19.040 --> 0:16:21.600 The park Service could talk about more. They probably know 0:16:21.680 --> 0:16:25.120 all the individual cubs that she had, but as far 0:16:25.160 --> 0:16:27.400 as I'm aware, there's only one of her cubs that's 0:16:27.400 --> 0:16:31.840 still alive in existing because they just get so habituated 0:16:31.880 --> 0:16:36.520 to people, they don't learn normal bear manners is what 0:16:36.560 --> 0:16:40.160 I call it. So, you know, one of her cubs 0:16:40.240 --> 0:16:43.400 got shot by a guy who he was he was 0:16:43.480 --> 0:16:45.680 hunting and he's in his camper and this bears walk 0:16:45.720 --> 0:16:48.720 and ride at him like it's coming to eat him, 0:16:48.920 --> 0:16:51.080 you know, but that bear's used to getting its picture 0:16:51.160 --> 0:16:55.200 taken and that guy's scared for his life because he 0:16:55.240 --> 0:16:57.440 thinks this bear is gonna hurt him. 0:16:57.560 --> 0:16:58.760 And you don't think it was. 0:17:00.600 --> 0:17:02.680 It was so used to people, it was smiling the 0:17:02.720 --> 0:17:05.080 whole way it was coming in. I'm sure, you know. 0:17:07.160 --> 0:17:10.640 So I just don't think it sets bears up for success. 0:17:10.720 --> 0:17:13.520 And three ninety nine was really polarizing. I mean, some 0:17:13.560 --> 0:17:17.320 people loved her. Some people hated her. I think people 0:17:17.359 --> 0:17:21.840 forget that she mauled a guy years ago, so I 0:17:21.840 --> 0:17:23.200 mean she was still a grizzly bear. 0:17:24.119 --> 0:17:26.720 And what do you say people hated that bear? Do 0:17:26.760 --> 0:17:28.399 you mean that they hated that bear because what it 0:17:28.400 --> 0:17:30.280 Because it was a symbol for something. 0:17:30.160 --> 0:17:33.040 I think. So I think I think people would make 0:17:33.119 --> 0:17:35.520 comments that I would see and it would really ruffle 0:17:35.520 --> 0:17:38.480 feathers where you know, if they would say things like 0:17:39.560 --> 0:17:42.360 if they dealist grizzly bears and I can hunt, I'm 0:17:42.359 --> 0:17:48.920 gonna shoot that bear, and that just that really affected 0:17:48.920 --> 0:17:49.800 people negatively. 0:17:50.160 --> 0:17:56.239 So well that Shane Shane who got scratched off by 0:17:56.240 --> 0:17:56.840 the bear. 0:17:57.680 --> 0:18:01.679 He said right in his chair, Yeah, and he had. 0:18:01.520 --> 0:18:03.560 Good reason to believe that it was three ninety nine. 0:18:05.480 --> 0:18:07.640 That's what he had said. Well they well, how would 0:18:07.600 --> 0:18:10.600 they not know for certain, sorry that he was scratched 0:18:10.640 --> 0:18:11.560 up by Yeah. 0:18:11.400 --> 0:18:13.240 That's that was one of the things that he said. 0:18:13.359 --> 0:18:15.080 And she was in the vicinity. 0:18:15.240 --> 0:18:18.040 She was in the vicinity. But it was like if 0:18:18.119 --> 0:18:20.639 three ninety nine was the one that did this to you, 0:18:20.720 --> 0:18:22.680 we don't want to know about it. Was that kind 0:18:22.680 --> 0:18:27.399 of a thing. So it's I mean, that was that 0:18:27.520 --> 0:18:29.080 was one of the things that he mentioned sort of 0:18:29.080 --> 0:18:31.480 off handedly, and he's like, if it was three ninety nine, 0:18:31.520 --> 0:18:34.199 I don't think anybody would come out and declare to 0:18:34.240 --> 0:18:35.879 the world that three ninety nine had done this and 0:18:35.960 --> 0:18:38.360 needs to get destroyed, because it would just cause such 0:18:38.359 --> 0:18:40.720 an uproar. So it was kind of like there were 0:18:42.040 --> 0:18:45.240 there's like a buffer zone built around this bear to 0:18:45.320 --> 0:18:49.640 protect it from the consequences of its bad behavior once 0:18:49.680 --> 0:18:52.399 people get so attached to it. Yeah, I got you, 0:18:53.400 --> 0:18:55.640 but he he post I think when three ninety nine 0:18:55.680 --> 0:18:58.800 died too. He posted something again to the effect of 0:18:58.840 --> 0:19:00.960 like there's a good chance that this was the bear 0:19:00.960 --> 0:19:01.359 that did it. 0:19:02.280 --> 0:19:05.200 Wow, let me ask you another one. 0:19:05.520 --> 0:19:07.560 Yeah, that was that was a hard question. I'm sure 0:19:07.640 --> 0:19:11.320 people are gonna cry over that. So three was just 0:19:12.000 --> 0:19:13.240 touched a lot of heart strings. 0:19:13.400 --> 0:19:14.280 Rip yep. 0:19:15.440 --> 0:19:19.080 Three nine was never going to die, you know, in 0:19:19.160 --> 0:19:24.920 a warm bed with a roaring fire, surrounded by loved ones, right, Like, yeah, 0:19:25.080 --> 0:19:27.919 I was sick. That's the the craziest part is like, 0:19:27.960 --> 0:19:31.239 getting whacked by cars not the worst way to go. 0:19:32.080 --> 0:19:34.480 Wild Animal Cal went out, Cal did there's a col 0:19:34.560 --> 0:19:36.600 in the field about this on YouTube type and Cal 0:19:36.640 --> 0:19:38.480 in the Field grizzly Barry, you'll see this one. But 0:19:39.440 --> 0:19:41.560 there's a col in the field where he goes out 0:19:41.560 --> 0:19:44.160 with some Idaho guys and they work and they they 0:19:44.240 --> 0:19:47.399 colvert trap a grizzly and work up the grizzly. So 0:19:47.480 --> 0:19:52.680 they colvert trap a grizzly and it's got a lip tattoo, 0:19:54.520 --> 0:19:57.439 so they like an identifying marker, right, they call in 0:19:57.480 --> 0:20:01.800 the lip tattoo and and they're like, oh, we know 0:20:01.880 --> 0:20:08.280 that bear. They had had a collared female grizzly in 0:20:08.320 --> 0:20:13.439 the park. She found a carcass. She found a buffalo 0:20:13.560 --> 0:20:18.280 carcass and was on it. And they get a mortality 0:20:18.320 --> 0:20:22.600 signal and they go there and there's their sow with 0:20:22.720 --> 0:20:26.960 the collar dead on top of the buffalo carcass, and 0:20:27.000 --> 0:20:29.199 standing on top of the both of them is this 0:20:30.119 --> 0:20:34.439 male bear. Yeah right, but man, you could explain that 0:20:34.560 --> 0:20:36.680 kind of stuff all day long, like that the number 0:20:36.720 --> 0:20:39.600 one cause of death of Yellowstone wolves as wolves. Like 0:20:39.680 --> 0:20:43.720 you could explain that stuff all day long, but it 0:20:43.800 --> 0:20:48.879 is never gonna It just doesn't resonate. You know. People 0:20:48.920 --> 0:20:53.000 will look at certain causes of death, like if three 0:20:53.119 --> 0:20:55.159 ninety nine had been killed by a male grizzly, I 0:20:55.200 --> 0:20:59.760 don't think people would be upset, you know what I mean? Yeah, people, 0:21:00.440 --> 0:21:02.920 it's it's that they're upset because it's human caused. 0:21:03.920 --> 0:21:07.399 Yeah, people put different values on different animals, and and 0:21:07.440 --> 0:21:11.080 they even yeah, even at the individual level, put values 0:21:11.080 --> 0:21:14.560 on animals. And yeah, people just really valued that bear. 0:21:15.560 --> 0:21:19.840 So let me hte you with another easier to answer one. 0:21:19.880 --> 0:21:22.840 But you'll get this will make other people mad. Good, 0:21:25.160 --> 0:21:28.399 Now you're gonna, Now you're gonna. We have we know, 0:21:28.560 --> 0:21:32.160 we have a full spectrum of listeners. Sure, we got 0:21:32.240 --> 0:21:34.040 we got the horseshoe, you got, we got, we got 0:21:35.400 --> 0:21:38.240 left we got righty's lefties, and then we got where 0:21:38.280 --> 0:21:41.680 the rights and the lefties meet, which is crazy redneck hippies. 0:21:41.960 --> 0:21:42.240 Sure. 0:21:42.480 --> 0:21:44.680 Yeah, So no matter what you say, your eyes and 0:21:44.800 --> 0:21:47.399 get someone that's gonna get mad. And this will be 0:21:47.400 --> 0:21:50.960 a thing where where the the the the right bottom 0:21:51.000 --> 0:21:53.560 of the horseshoe get will get very irritated no matter 0:21:53.560 --> 0:21:58.120 what you say, uh, bear spray or pistols like when 0:21:58.160 --> 0:22:00.840 you're out. Yeah, no one, what you know, having dealt 0:22:00.840 --> 0:22:03.159 with as many grizzlies as you we dealt with and 0:22:03.240 --> 0:22:05.760 been to as many conflict sights as you've been to, 0:22:06.240 --> 0:22:08.080 and touched as many of them as he touched to 0:22:08.720 --> 0:22:10.760 and talked to as many people has been messed up 0:22:10.760 --> 0:22:14.640 by grizzlies as you've talked to bear spray or pistol. 0:22:14.400 --> 0:22:18.159 Without a doubt bear spray really, yeah, and. 0:22:18.240 --> 0:22:26.520 Tell me more now I'm mad. You promise he's a 0:22:26.560 --> 0:22:30.240 gun grabber. The other day Yanni was talking about them 0:22:30.280 --> 0:22:33.280 needing to ban the Red Rider. I was like, now, 0:22:33.320 --> 0:22:36.160 you're a gun grabber trying to take away people's Red Rider. 0:22:36.240 --> 0:22:36.679 What was his? 0:22:36.840 --> 0:22:40.600 Uh, he's got some cockamami theory that cheating a kid 0:22:40.640 --> 0:22:42.520 to shoot on a Red Rider to get used to 0:22:42.560 --> 0:22:48.880 a heavy trigger pull. My little kids, Yeah, my little 0:22:48.920 --> 0:22:50.840 kids shooting Red Riders. I remember they used to shoo 0:22:50.880 --> 0:22:53.240 him with two fingers because you cannot get that go off. 0:22:53.680 --> 0:22:54.919 I thought it was going to be like he was 0:22:54.960 --> 0:22:56.320 anti BB gun fights. 0:22:57.280 --> 0:22:59.800 He's he thinks he thinks of Red Rider. He just 0:23:00.240 --> 0:23:03.720 form And I think that's a very Unamerican statement. You 0:23:03.720 --> 0:23:07.160 shoot your eye out Bear spray unequivocally. 0:23:08.160 --> 0:23:12.000 Yeah. I have one caveat to that. If you're really 0:23:12.040 --> 0:23:16.680 well experienced with with handguns, then by all means carry 0:23:16.680 --> 0:23:19.800 a handgun. But a lot of people just aren't and 0:23:19.880 --> 0:23:25.879 I investigated so many cases of self defense defensive life shootings, 0:23:25.920 --> 0:23:30.680 and people are just really bad shots with pistols and 0:23:31.000 --> 0:23:32.640 a lot of times they would even hit the bear, 0:23:33.000 --> 0:23:37.199 but they don't hit it lethally. And bear spray. The 0:23:37.240 --> 0:23:39.600 beauty of it is it makes a four foot cloud, 0:23:40.359 --> 0:23:41.760 so you don't have to be accurate. 0:23:43.440 --> 0:23:45.080 And how much do they hate that bear spray? 0:23:46.160 --> 0:23:47.480 I've never seen it not work. 0:23:47.960 --> 0:23:50.440 So do you know that? Red a statistic and I 0:23:50.440 --> 0:23:51.520 didn't really spend a lot of time. 0:23:51.680 --> 0:23:53.600 If you spray it on the ground, they'll come sniff 0:23:53.640 --> 0:23:56.040 it though. It becomes an attractant. 0:23:55.760 --> 0:23:58.880 Oh oh yeah, I got I'll tell you a good 0:23:58.920 --> 0:24:02.919 one about that. But I read a statistic and I 0:24:02.960 --> 0:24:04.959 never really spent much time on it, but it seemed 0:24:05.000 --> 0:24:09.040 like it seemed significant that twenty five percent of the 0:24:09.080 --> 0:24:13.439 time a pistol or sorry, twenty five percent of the 0:24:13.440 --> 0:24:16.680 time when a firearm is discharged in a bear attack, 0:24:16.960 --> 0:24:17.919 it hits a human. 0:24:18.720 --> 0:24:19.800 Yeah, that's the other reason. 0:24:20.240 --> 0:24:20.840 Have you heard that? 0:24:21.800 --> 0:24:24.360 No, I haven't heard that statistic. That seems high. There's 0:24:24.400 --> 0:24:26.480 a lot of not shoot not there. 0:24:26.720 --> 0:24:30.399 But listen, man, like I know, yeah, I know a 0:24:30.440 --> 0:24:32.600 bunch of cases where that's happened, and I haven't looked 0:24:32.640 --> 0:24:33.399 into it. I just read it. 0:24:34.200 --> 0:24:37.960 You know, there was a case on the Montana Idaho border. 0:24:38.000 --> 0:24:40.520 It ended up being in Montana where the guy was 0:24:40.560 --> 0:24:43.640 getting mauled and his buddy tried to shoot the bear 0:24:43.720 --> 0:24:45.160 off him and actually killed his friend. 0:24:45.280 --> 0:24:49.840 Yeah, they had shot that that bear. They were black 0:24:49.880 --> 0:24:53.000 bear hunting. They mistook it for a black bear, so 0:24:53.040 --> 0:24:56.359 they shot it and the bear runs into the into 0:24:56.400 --> 0:24:59.520 the brush. He thinks he hit a black bear, so 0:24:59.560 --> 0:25:03.119 he goes trailing in there after it and boom. 0:25:03.359 --> 0:25:05.359 I just remember it was so close on the border, 0:25:05.440 --> 0:25:10.160 they didn't know who had jurisdiction about it. So yeah, 0:25:10.200 --> 0:25:14.600 so that's that's why I carry bear spray. And you know, 0:25:15.000 --> 0:25:17.600 ultimately it's up to people. I know there's gun lovers 0:25:17.600 --> 0:25:19.800 they want to carry guns and that's fine, but a 0:25:19.840 --> 0:25:22.280 lot of people just don't practice shooting pistols enough. 0:25:22.480 --> 0:25:25.040 Yeah. Yeah, I think it does say a lot about 0:25:25.080 --> 0:25:28.920 your The choice might say more about your mind frame 0:25:29.040 --> 0:25:32.680 than it does your like your strat your sense of strategy. Right. 0:25:33.160 --> 0:25:36.520 I remember being like up at Sportsman's Warehouse and Anchorage 0:25:36.840 --> 0:25:39.840 and seeing people that just got off a plane and 0:25:40.359 --> 0:25:44.600 they're going to buy a pistol for their Alaska vacation 0:25:45.359 --> 0:25:47.560 and then you know, pawn it off or whatever at 0:25:47.560 --> 0:25:50.760 the end of the vacation. Like, I think there's like 0:25:50.800 --> 0:25:54.600 a there's an assumption that if you, if you believe 0:25:54.680 --> 0:25:57.199 in the handgun, like you just go get when you 0:25:57.240 --> 0:25:59.920 get a box ammo, and you keep it near you, 0:26:00.800 --> 0:26:03.639 and like that's just a recipe for disaster. But I 0:26:03.640 --> 0:26:07.760 think there's a lot of overconfident and I'm i myself, 0:26:07.800 --> 0:26:09.920 I have no confidence in my handgun shooting ability, and 0:26:09.960 --> 0:26:11.240 I shoot one pretty regularly. 0:26:11.320 --> 0:26:13.920 But I'll tell you, my little my I'll walk you 0:26:14.000 --> 0:26:18.720 through my irrational thoughts on it. If there's slight risk 0:26:19.000 --> 0:26:22.159 of First off, I I condemn and yell at and 0:26:22.200 --> 0:26:24.880 harrass and tease anyone that carries bear spray where there's 0:26:24.920 --> 0:26:29.000 no grizzlies, indefensible it works on lions. 0:26:29.080 --> 0:26:35.280 What if it's just on your by hardness teas worthy 0:26:35.320 --> 0:26:35.760 in her as. 0:26:36.160 --> 0:26:39.080 Bear spray is not nice to get shot with, and 0:26:39.119 --> 0:26:41.520 they and it like they go off. I've been in 0:26:41.520 --> 0:26:45.800 two I've been never mauled by a bear, been charged 0:26:45.800 --> 0:26:47.959 by them, but never mauled. But twice I've been hosed 0:26:47.960 --> 0:26:48.960 by people's bear spray. 0:26:50.640 --> 0:26:52.440 Mine doesn't come off that. 0:26:53.160 --> 0:27:00.000 They trust it every two years, Yes, trust me, it's 0:27:00.080 --> 0:27:03.600 like it happens. Those are not those The plastic nozzles 0:27:03.640 --> 0:27:08.560 on those cans are not invulnerable. One time, on just 0:27:08.600 --> 0:27:11.520 standing around a car unloading backpacks, someone stepped on the 0:27:11.520 --> 0:27:17.119 plastic nozzle everything. And one time I got pickpocketed in 0:27:17.119 --> 0:27:19.400 the thick in the like a willow choked hell hole. 0:27:20.080 --> 0:27:21.760 And also I was like, what is that noise going? 0:27:25.119 --> 0:27:28.160 All your ship's done, all your gear is gone, You 0:27:28.200 --> 0:27:29.160 cannot get it out. 0:27:29.600 --> 0:27:29.800 Wait? 0:27:29.920 --> 0:27:31.800 Is it bad to keep your bear spray. 0:27:32.160 --> 0:27:32.680 In your car? 0:27:33.280 --> 0:27:33.639 Yeah? 0:27:34.160 --> 0:27:37.280 Keep itature It'll total your car. 0:27:38.320 --> 0:27:40.680 Know, I know people whose car has been told your car. 0:27:40.840 --> 0:27:43.200 When that goes off your car, it will total your car. 0:27:44.040 --> 0:27:46.480 Temperatures are dropping. I had a friend who did that 0:27:46.560 --> 0:27:52.000 and he's still driving his vehicle giving yeah all the time. 0:27:52.240 --> 0:27:54.359 Put get a small amimal can. There's one right outside 0:27:54.359 --> 0:27:56.520 the door of the of the studio. Get a small 0:27:56.560 --> 0:27:59.720 animal can and put it in the ammal can. And 0:27:59.720 --> 0:28:01.840 then when you're using it, Carrie, when you're done using it, 0:28:01.840 --> 0:28:04.080 put in an animal can. I was gonna I'm gonna tell 0:28:04.080 --> 0:28:06.640 you my irrational logic. Let me tell my funny story. Yeah, 0:28:07.160 --> 0:28:10.680 we had the Ranella family. We had we went into 0:28:10.680 --> 0:28:13.399 the summer with two bear sprays, and we have like 0:28:13.400 --> 0:28:16.280 a little camping spot where there's grizzlies. So when we 0:28:16.320 --> 0:28:18.119 get there, before I get a sense of what's going on, 0:28:18.200 --> 0:28:20.000 I'll like tell my kids, like, take the spray if 0:28:20.000 --> 0:28:21.760 you're gonna go fish, or take the spray and bring 0:28:21.800 --> 0:28:25.000 the dog. And then once we kind of get a 0:28:25.040 --> 0:28:27.520 sense of what's up, everybody relaxes about it. But at 0:28:27.560 --> 0:28:30.159 first it's thick, you know, at first I'll take the 0:28:30.160 --> 0:28:32.679 bear spray. So the end of the summer we only have. 0:28:32.880 --> 0:28:36.000 Now there's one bear spray, and of course no one 0:28:36.040 --> 0:28:37.879 knows what happened to the other bear spray. Well, me 0:28:37.920 --> 0:28:40.840 and my wife are up shutting our little camping area down. 0:28:41.600 --> 0:28:47.120 And here right outside of our little composting outhouse toilet, Yeah, 0:28:47.200 --> 0:28:50.880 right outside the door is the can of bear spray, 0:28:51.480 --> 0:28:56.239 empty with four holes in it. It got at by 0:28:56.240 --> 0:28:56.520 a bear. 0:28:56.760 --> 0:28:59.520 Got yep, got eaten by a bear. Seen that before? 0:28:59.680 --> 0:29:04.080 Yeah, Uh, here's my irrational logic. Okay, slight risk of grizzlies, 0:29:04.120 --> 0:29:07.800 I use spray. High risk of grizzlies. I bring my 0:29:07.880 --> 0:29:12.400 ten milimeters pistol ultra high risk of grizzlies. I bring 0:29:12.440 --> 0:29:15.040 my sawd off pump twelve gage with slugs in it. 0:29:15.800 --> 0:29:20.200 Yeah, I've found this spray and pray. 0:29:22.520 --> 0:29:24.200 And I always look at it, and I always look 0:29:24.200 --> 0:29:26.160 at all three of them. I'm like, hey, man, like, 0:29:26.200 --> 0:29:27.080 what are you thinking here? 0:29:28.400 --> 0:29:33.920 That's a that's a myth I can dispel too. Is people, Uh, 0:29:34.040 --> 0:29:37.680 people take shotguns and they alternate buckshot and slugs. 0:29:37.800 --> 0:29:39.400 Oh yeah, because you know, I know that. No, I 0:29:39.400 --> 0:29:41.440 think it's supposed to. Brody told me you're supposed to 0:29:41.480 --> 0:29:46.600 run two bird shots. Yeah. Then you start going. Then 0:29:46.640 --> 0:29:50.120 you start going slug but shots, because it's like you 0:29:50.200 --> 0:29:54.320 warn it, boom, you warn it boom. Then like it's 0:29:54.360 --> 0:29:57.640 getting closer. Now you hit it with the slug boom. 0:29:58.040 --> 0:30:00.840 Then it's so close and everything's so chaotic. Then you 0:30:00.840 --> 0:30:01.880 start going buckshot. 0:30:02.280 --> 0:30:05.680 And most bears are aware of this choreography, this elaborate 0:30:05.760 --> 0:30:07.120 choreography before. 0:30:06.880 --> 0:30:10.480 They Yeah, all the time, there's. 0:30:09.600 --> 0:30:10.320 The warning shot. 0:30:10.400 --> 0:30:11.360 Yeah, there's warning. 0:30:12.280 --> 0:30:14.080 He tells his bite. Listen when you're coming in, he's 0:30:14.080 --> 0:30:16.400 gonna hit you two bird shots. Yeah, then you got 0:30:16.400 --> 0:30:18.480 to dodge the slug. Watch out for the buckshot. 0:30:18.600 --> 0:30:21.320 Yeah, a zig and then a zag. 0:30:22.000 --> 0:30:24.360 Here's my scenario that I find myself in all the time. 0:30:24.520 --> 0:30:26.880 As most hunters, we don't get to pick our weather, 0:30:27.000 --> 0:30:28.720 but we do get to pick which direction. 0:30:28.480 --> 0:30:29.600 We walk when we're out hunting. 0:30:29.640 --> 0:30:31.280 And most of the time the winds in my face, 0:30:32.240 --> 0:30:35.400 and a lot of times the winds honking. I don't 0:30:35.400 --> 0:30:36.920 trust bear spray when the wind's blowing. 0:30:37.880 --> 0:30:41.320 Okay, So I've had that question a bunch over the years. 0:30:41.360 --> 0:30:44.000 And I had a really good friend who was horn 0:30:44.080 --> 0:30:48.120 hunting in the spring. It was super windy out. A 0:30:48.240 --> 0:30:53.200 sow with cubs, real little cubs, charges him, and you know, 0:30:53.280 --> 0:30:56.080 the winds in his face. He spray's bear spray. Half 0:30:56.120 --> 0:30:57.920 of it goes in her face, half of it gets 0:30:57.960 --> 0:31:03.360 in his face. They both ran off trying so it. Yeah, 0:31:03.440 --> 0:31:05.880 the propellant still gets out there, but not as far 0:31:05.880 --> 0:31:06.880 as it normally would. 0:31:07.000 --> 0:31:09.320 I'd love to practice in the wind, but I don't. 0:31:09.160 --> 0:31:12.120 Want to get a case of those inert cans. 0:31:12.360 --> 0:31:13.720 Yeah, I think that'd be interesting. 0:31:15.120 --> 0:31:16.840 I should get a case of those inert cans. I 0:31:17.000 --> 0:31:19.960 just like shoot each other around, like laser tag around. 0:31:20.360 --> 0:31:21.000 That would be fun. 0:31:21.160 --> 0:31:25.400 I tried to shoot a sow and cubs with a 0:31:25.440 --> 0:31:28.080 can of bear spray out of a window. 0:31:28.880 --> 0:31:29.840 And the when I was. 0:31:29.840 --> 0:31:34.520 Working Yellowstone, they were coming in and tearing up our cat. 0:31:34.560 --> 0:31:36.080 When I was working up in Alaska, they'd come in 0:31:36.120 --> 0:31:38.400 and tear up stuff on the portrait and trying to 0:31:38.400 --> 0:31:40.480 give a bad and like they would come in, they'd 0:31:40.520 --> 0:31:42.320 get into the fish shack to get into the tool 0:31:42.360 --> 0:31:44.400 shed that eat rubber boots that do all this stuff. 0:31:44.440 --> 0:31:46.120 And like so I was, I stayed in the main 0:31:46.160 --> 0:31:49.400 lodge that they kept coming into and open the window 0:31:50.600 --> 0:31:52.920 and they were walking past, and I sprayed, and it 0:31:53.000 --> 0:31:56.400 might have been just outside of the range, but all 0:31:56.400 --> 0:32:00.040 that bear spray went along the building and they like 0:32:00.120 --> 0:32:04.120 went ten feet back and stood up and then kind 0:32:04.120 --> 0:32:05.719 of circled around and came right back in. 0:32:07.160 --> 0:32:11.640 Killed you shut the window real quick. And then actually 0:32:11.640 --> 0:32:13.360 we sat around. I was with this kid. 0:32:13.440 --> 0:32:16.400 We just like we were sitting in the cabin like 0:32:16.520 --> 0:32:18.760 later on, like forty five minutes later, and we were 0:32:18.800 --> 0:32:21.120 both kind of like does it smell weird? And then 0:32:21.120 --> 0:32:24.479 we started getting like you know, like licking your cheeks 0:32:24.560 --> 0:32:27.120 and like your lips and stuff, and and we'd gotten 0:32:27.160 --> 0:32:29.840 like a trace amount inside and it had been swirling 0:32:29.880 --> 0:32:31.640 and swirling, and we spent like the rest of the 0:32:31.720 --> 0:32:34.800 night just like kind of licking our lips and rubbing 0:32:34.800 --> 0:32:38.720 our noses and stuff. Yeah, that was my one experience 0:32:38.760 --> 0:32:40.239 actually discharging. 0:32:39.720 --> 0:32:42.280 A can can't tell you a story. 0:32:42.440 --> 0:32:46.080 Yep, please sory here. I'm jealousy. I was. I was 0:32:46.600 --> 0:32:50.160 impressed that Randall got to shoot at one with a spray, 0:32:50.200 --> 0:32:51.960 But go on to have video of it somewhere. 0:32:52.080 --> 0:32:54.640 I actually never did get at a spray a bear 0:32:54.680 --> 0:32:58.800 with one. But I was deer hunting one fall and 0:32:59.560 --> 0:33:02.200 I was going in some really heavy dark timber and 0:33:02.240 --> 0:33:05.120 my dad always taught me to load around in my gun. 0:33:05.840 --> 0:33:08.920 So I'm going through the timber and I walk under 0:33:08.960 --> 0:33:12.160 this tree and there's a magpie sitting in the tree 0:33:12.560 --> 0:33:14.880 and he's just staring at me. He's just looking right 0:33:14.920 --> 0:33:16.880 down at me, and I'm looking up at him, and 0:33:16.920 --> 0:33:20.040 I'm thinking, boy, that's weird that magpie. 0:33:20.360 --> 0:33:21.280 Why is he hanging out? 0:33:21.360 --> 0:33:23.160 Yeah? Why is he hang out? Or just staring at 0:33:23.160 --> 0:33:26.560 each other? And I go another i don't know, thirty 0:33:26.640 --> 0:33:30.640 yards and I hear something and I turn around and 0:33:30.680 --> 0:33:34.320 there's this bore coming down the hill at me. He's 0:33:34.680 --> 0:33:35.600 coming right at me and. 0:33:35.560 --> 0:33:36.360 How many yards way? 0:33:37.280 --> 0:33:40.840 Maybe twenty? Guy, I mean, he's coming for me. And 0:33:41.520 --> 0:33:45.160 I was thinking myself, I got one shot with this rifle, 0:33:45.520 --> 0:33:48.200 you know, I got one chance to kill this thing, 0:33:48.320 --> 0:33:50.880 and it's going to be on top of me. And 0:33:51.120 --> 0:33:53.280 I realized what my dad was trying to teach me 0:33:53.440 --> 0:33:56.040 was just to be prepared, you know, And I would 0:33:56.040 --> 0:33:58.400 have been way better off with a can of bear 0:33:58.480 --> 0:34:01.560 spray in my hand, just walking through the woods and 0:34:01.920 --> 0:34:04.120 as a guide. I do that sometimes, you know, if 0:34:04.120 --> 0:34:06.120 it's real tight quarters, I don't have a problem walking 0:34:06.120 --> 0:34:09.120 around with the cann of bear spray. Even if you 0:34:09.200 --> 0:34:12.040 spray yourself, you're gonna live to talk about it. 0:34:12.160 --> 0:34:13.280 So what happened? 0:34:14.040 --> 0:34:18.040 He Yeah, I sprayed him and he didn't care. 0:34:19.239 --> 0:34:20.719 Yeah. 0:34:20.800 --> 0:34:22.799 I started yelling at him and he was coming down 0:34:22.800 --> 0:34:24.279 the hill at me, and he just kind of did 0:34:24.280 --> 0:34:27.880 a quarter pass, which is like a classic bear move, 0:34:28.000 --> 0:34:31.960 you know. It was it was a bluff, but I 0:34:32.000 --> 0:34:35.040 thought it was the real deal. And I just remember thinking, like, 0:34:35.120 --> 0:34:37.719 I gotta wait until this thing is right on top 0:34:37.760 --> 0:34:40.040 of me before I shoot, because I only got one chance. 0:34:41.200 --> 0:34:43.759 So what is after all those bears you worked up, 0:34:46.680 --> 0:34:48.920 what is a big bear in the rockies. 0:34:49.920 --> 0:34:52.600 A big bear is five hundred pounds. The biggest bear 0:34:52.600 --> 0:34:56.040 ever caught was six twenty four in the spring, would 0:34:56.080 --> 0:34:58.760 have been a true seven hundred pound bear in the fall. 0:35:00.040 --> 0:35:00.839 When people come. 0:35:00.760 --> 0:35:03.600 Into big bear, that's a huge bear because every bear 0:35:03.719 --> 0:35:06.080 is like I just cut. 0:35:05.920 --> 0:35:09.120 People's number in half immediately, you know, whatever it is, 0:35:09.160 --> 0:35:09.960 I cut it in half. 0:35:10.760 --> 0:35:12.960 They tell you how big the bear was, Yeah, yep. 0:35:13.400 --> 0:35:16.120 And you know, all those bears I worked up. The 0:35:16.160 --> 0:35:20.759 sows are almost always right around three hundred pounds two 0:35:20.840 --> 0:35:25.000 seventy five, three twenty five. They stop growing when they're 0:35:25.040 --> 0:35:27.960 about seven to eight years old, where the males just 0:35:28.200 --> 0:35:32.120 keep putting on weight, keep getting bigger. So a five 0:35:32.200 --> 0:35:34.480 hundred pounds adult male is a huge bear in the 0:35:34.520 --> 0:35:35.520 alstone ecosystem. 0:35:35.600 --> 0:35:38.120 That's a huge bear. Yeah. And what's a more typical 0:35:38.200 --> 0:35:40.200 male like, like, what is like a four or five 0:35:40.280 --> 0:35:43.040 year old male two fifty? 0:35:43.600 --> 0:35:46.240 You know, I don't know, three hundred. 0:35:46.440 --> 0:35:49.160 God, they seem so much bigger, badder, Yeah, and they're bad, 0:35:49.200 --> 0:35:50.799 but they seem so much bigger. Yeah. 0:35:50.800 --> 0:35:55.080 And people overestimate wolves too, and really, you know, lions 0:35:55.120 --> 0:35:59.279 are way bigger than wolves. But people because of the hair, 0:35:59.520 --> 0:36:04.640 especially the fall bears, animolves, but bears especially they get 0:36:04.640 --> 0:36:07.680 that that winner code on and people just think they're 0:36:07.719 --> 0:36:11.200 way bigger than they are. You know, they're like, it's 0:36:11.200 --> 0:36:15.680 a sow with a two full drown cubs, and it's like, no, 0:36:15.760 --> 0:36:18.319 that thing weighs one hundred and fifty pounds, but it's 0:36:18.360 --> 0:36:20.920 got so much hair it looks like as big as her. 0:36:21.160 --> 0:36:21.359 Yeah. 0:36:22.520 --> 0:36:22.640 Uh. 0:36:23.320 --> 0:36:28.120 You were with the agency when the delisting looked like 0:36:28.120 --> 0:36:29.000 it was going to go through. 0:36:29.880 --> 0:36:31.319 Yeah, ok, it did go through. 0:36:33.440 --> 0:36:35.040 Well, sorry, when it looked like they were no, well 0:36:35.080 --> 0:36:40.640 it didn't an undid they were delisted yeah multiple times? Yeah, okay, 0:36:40.719 --> 0:36:43.400 So help me with the timeline here, just to give 0:36:43.440 --> 0:36:50.200 people rough sense what will happen is Well, first off, 0:36:50.200 --> 0:36:53.399 I'm me saying this is not surprise. This is surprisingly 0:36:53.480 --> 0:37:01.800 not a partisan like Democrat versus Republican issue generally grizzly bears. Well, 0:37:02.200 --> 0:37:03.800 hear me out, because because I'm going to top of 0:37:03.800 --> 0:37:07.200 all the dlistings. Okay, yeah, so you can, you can. 0:37:07.239 --> 0:37:09.320 You can give that because there's definitely a tendency and 0:37:09.360 --> 0:37:11.960 a tendency. But just I just think that people have 0:37:12.040 --> 0:37:15.920 the opinion, they have their erroneous idea that somehow like 0:37:15.960 --> 0:37:19.800 a governor or whatever can just declare right right that 0:37:20.200 --> 0:37:23.000 something would happen right, that you would that that it's 0:37:23.120 --> 0:37:25.480 that it's a simple that doing this is a simple process. 0:37:25.520 --> 0:37:28.759 It just takes the right political figure to do it. 0:37:28.760 --> 0:37:30.359 It's I'm going to explain how it's a little bit 0:37:30.400 --> 0:37:35.000 more complicated in that right. In seventy four seventy nineteen 0:37:35.040 --> 0:37:37.720 seventy four, nineteen seventy five, grizzly bears and the lower 0:37:37.800 --> 0:37:43.200 forty eight were listed as an endangered They're listed as 0:37:43.200 --> 0:37:46.239 a threatened species under the Endangered Species Act, so they're 0:37:46.280 --> 0:37:50.839 given Federal and Endangered Species Act Species Act protection under 0:37:50.840 --> 0:37:55.480 the EESA. And seventy four seventy five Richard Nixon, Dick Nixon. 0:37:57.560 --> 0:37:59.640 Don't remember him, heard of. 0:38:01.520 --> 0:38:10.480 Republican signed in the e s A signed Ina signed in. 0:38:12.640 --> 0:38:14.080 Then he established the EPA. 0:38:14.680 --> 0:38:19.040 That's that's the National Environmental Protection Act. 0:38:19.160 --> 0:38:21.319 Oh, I'm sorry, I thought you were talking about the 0:38:21.640 --> 0:38:23.319 native milk. 0:38:23.480 --> 0:38:23.560 No. 0:38:23.640 --> 0:38:29.160 Sorry, Oh yeah, Richard Nixon CRAS and Endangered Species Act. 0:38:29.200 --> 0:38:32.399 And one of the first like marquee species to get 0:38:32.440 --> 0:38:35.080 protection under that is grizzy bears and lower forty eight. 0:38:36.200 --> 0:38:41.160 All kinds of years go by and wildlife managers kind 0:38:41.160 --> 0:38:44.000 of look and say, well, the saying the lower forty 0:38:44.080 --> 0:38:46.560 eight is not a great way of looking at this. 0:38:47.440 --> 0:38:51.560 For instance, Golden Gate Park in San Francisco once upon 0:38:51.560 --> 0:38:54.560 a time had grizzly bears, and I don't we don't 0:38:54.719 --> 0:38:58.279 view that Golden Gate Park is going to recover that 0:38:58.360 --> 0:39:01.879 San Francisco is going to recover it's grizzly bear population, right, 0:39:02.400 --> 0:39:08.360 is never gonna work. So over time they establish they 0:39:08.440 --> 0:39:11.000 take a look and they go like, where really could 0:39:11.000 --> 0:39:15.520 we have grizzly bears? Like where is the right food resources, 0:39:16.120 --> 0:39:20.359 low enough human population, proper habitat where you could feasibly 0:39:20.440 --> 0:39:23.040 have a population of grizzly bears? And they come up 0:39:23.080 --> 0:39:28.040 with six. One is in the Northern Casque what they 0:39:28.080 --> 0:39:31.360 call the Northern Cascade ecosystem. So one is like basically 0:39:32.640 --> 0:39:35.279 the Northern Cascades in Washington where you're kind of rolling 0:39:35.320 --> 0:39:35.759 into BC. 0:39:36.680 --> 0:39:39.399 Zero bears, sometimes one, sometimes one. 0:39:40.280 --> 0:39:42.880 It depends on what side of the Yeah, it depends 0:39:42.920 --> 0:39:44.160 on what side of the border. 0:39:44.520 --> 0:39:47.280 If you're from Wyoming, it looks a lot like zero bears. 0:39:47.520 --> 0:39:51.760 Yeah, yeah, so yeah, they if they have it bears 0:39:51.760 --> 0:39:57.360 because one walked over there for a minute. Moving eastward, 0:39:57.719 --> 0:40:04.960 you have the bitter Root cell Kirk cell Way none. 0:40:06.080 --> 0:40:09.120 None, sell Kirks have bears, the bitter bitter Root does. 0:40:09.160 --> 0:40:11.920 The Bitterot side. That's one. Oh, I forgot. They gave 0:40:11.960 --> 0:40:13.440 a name to these things that already say the name 0:40:13.680 --> 0:40:17.879 they call the distinct distinct population segments. So they say, okay, 0:40:17.920 --> 0:40:20.080 we're gonna say that there's a grizzly bear population or 0:40:20.080 --> 0:40:23.080 the possibility of a grizzy bear population in the Lower Cascades. 0:40:25.480 --> 0:40:29.200 Uh, there's another one in Cabinet Yacks. 0:40:29.280 --> 0:40:33.880 That's right, Cabinet Yack has bears. Bitter Root sell Kirk, 0:40:34.200 --> 0:40:37.760 Bitter cell Way, Selway. Sorry, sell Kirks are in BC 0:40:38.280 --> 0:40:43.800 Bitterroot cell Way, Northern Continental Divide, which is Bob Marshall 0:40:44.320 --> 0:40:49.560 Glacier National Park, in some other areas up there, all 0:40:49.600 --> 0:40:54.319 the way out to the front Range. Uh. Then the 0:40:54.360 --> 0:40:56.120 g y E did I do them all? Am I 0:40:56.160 --> 0:40:56.680 missing any? 0:40:57.160 --> 0:40:57.640 I think that's it? 0:40:57.719 --> 0:41:02.000 Okay Uh, And they go like, so let's stop talking 0:41:02.000 --> 0:41:05.040 about the lower forty eight writ large and let's talk 0:41:05.080 --> 0:41:09.439 about let's get real okay right and talk about where 0:41:09.440 --> 0:41:11.120 could we actually have these bears. And then they looked 0:41:11.120 --> 0:41:13.319 at like Okay, So instead of saying that we're going 0:41:13.360 --> 0:41:16.120 to recover them across their range in the lower forty eight, 0:41:16.120 --> 0:41:22.680 which basically was the one hundredth meridian westward New Mexico, Arizona, 0:41:23.480 --> 0:41:28.360 Utah into northern Old Mexico coastal California. Right Like, let's 0:41:28.360 --> 0:41:31.040 just look at this. And so they say, let's say 0:41:31.960 --> 0:41:36.200 that we're going to try to recover and manage these 0:41:36.239 --> 0:41:39.040 as distinct population segments. And they look and say, if 0:41:39.040 --> 0:41:42.400 we're going to do that, there's two places, the Northern 0:41:42.440 --> 0:41:48.600 Continial Divide ecosystem in the Greater Yellowstone ecosystem, which is 0:41:48.719 --> 0:41:51.600 a chunk of ground about the size of Indiana. And 0:41:51.640 --> 0:41:54.879 they're like, those are recovered. The rest of the Lower 0:41:54.920 --> 0:41:58.160 forty eight not, but these areas I recovered, and so 0:41:58.560 --> 0:42:01.480 let's move those out of the e Let's move those 0:42:01.520 --> 0:42:05.200 out of endangered species at protection. The US Fish and 0:42:05.200 --> 0:42:08.960 Wildlife Service has management has management authority. The US Fish 0:42:08.960 --> 0:42:11.480 and Wildlife Service has to come forward and they do this. 0:42:12.840 --> 0:42:16.879 The US This has happened with Democrats in the White House. 0:42:16.960 --> 0:42:18.600 This has happened with the Republicans in the White House. 0:42:18.600 --> 0:42:21.360 They'll come forward and say the US Fish and Wildlife 0:42:21.360 --> 0:42:28.480 Service says, we propose that we propose that we delist 0:42:28.800 --> 0:42:33.919 the grizzly. Then you have preservations like three ninety nine 0:42:33.920 --> 0:42:38.400 type people. Preservations organizations will go like, well, Jesus, that 0:42:38.440 --> 0:42:41.080 could mean that three ninety nine could get hunted. So 0:42:41.239 --> 0:42:46.920 then they will sue in federal court to block the dlisting. 0:42:47.560 --> 0:42:50.120 So they'll delist, and then there's a lawsuit and they'll 0:42:50.239 --> 0:42:53.560 they'll never sue on basis they don't sue on how 0:42:53.600 --> 0:42:58.799 many bears there are. They sue on uh, well, we 0:42:58.840 --> 0:43:03.520 don't think the DPS thing was fair, Yeah, right, because 0:43:03.520 --> 0:43:06.239 you can't treat them as distinct because because a bear 0:43:06.239 --> 0:43:08.160 could move from one to the others. So we we're 0:43:08.200 --> 0:43:11.840 going to attack the logic of the of the DPS. 0:43:12.120 --> 0:43:17.560 Or you'll say, well, have you considered white bark pine 0:43:17.680 --> 0:43:21.920 blister rust and how there's a fungus that's killing white 0:43:21.920 --> 0:43:24.160 bark pines and grizzlies like the eat white bark pines, 0:43:24.360 --> 0:43:26.960 and since we don't know what will really happen in 0:43:27.000 --> 0:43:29.880 the long term to white bark pines, we're suing to 0:43:29.960 --> 0:43:34.240 block the listing. Or well, what if cutthroat trout don't 0:43:34.280 --> 0:43:36.840 do that? Well in the future, and ten percent of 0:43:36.920 --> 0:43:40.080 bears might eat a cutthroat trout at some point in 0:43:40.080 --> 0:43:42.239 their life. So we're going to sue to block the 0:43:42.320 --> 0:43:46.480 delisting because we don't really know how well cutthroats are doing. 0:43:46.360 --> 0:43:50.000 The risks because then the Fish and Wildlife Service is 0:43:50.080 --> 0:43:55.280 required as part of that review process to consider all factors, 0:43:55.920 --> 0:43:59.440 and they kind of have an impossible job, right, I mean, 0:43:59.480 --> 0:44:03.320 like there's they basically are saying, we did a comprehensive review, 0:44:03.360 --> 0:44:07.400 our conclusions are x, Y, and Z, and the litigators 0:44:07.400 --> 0:44:11.080 are saying, it's not that comprehensive. You missed this, you 0:44:11.120 --> 0:44:13.200 miss that, And they're kind of poking holes in the 0:44:13.239 --> 0:44:13.960 bigger picture. 0:44:14.040 --> 0:44:16.400 Yeah, and it will be It will come from anti 0:44:16.520 --> 0:44:22.000 hunting organizations like the Center for Biological Diversity, Humane Society, 0:44:22.120 --> 0:44:26.440 United States, Greater y Elson Coalition. Who else is a common 0:44:26.440 --> 0:44:34.000 player here? Center H And they'll they'll do these delistings 0:44:34.920 --> 0:44:37.000 or they'll they'll sue to block the delistings. 0:44:37.080 --> 0:44:40.160 Last one was the crow the Crow tribe tribe. 0:44:41.200 --> 0:44:43.840 What was the argument there, Uh. 0:44:44.840 --> 0:44:46.080 That we shouldn't be delisting. 0:44:46.640 --> 0:44:51.239 You know that's interesting. That was a long That was 0:44:51.239 --> 0:44:54.440 a long preamble to my question yeah, you were around 0:44:54.520 --> 0:44:57.640 for all this, yes, now, both of them. Okay, what 0:44:57.760 --> 0:45:01.640 I remember being really interesting about this is the three 0:45:01.920 --> 0:45:05.520 the three states that have chunks of ground and what 0:45:05.520 --> 0:45:08.520 we call the Greater Yellstone Ecosystem, a name that I 0:45:08.560 --> 0:45:10.959 resent because it call they should call it the Greater 0:45:11.040 --> 0:45:12.000 Cody ecosystem. 0:45:12.160 --> 0:45:13.360 They should call Wyoming bears. 0:45:13.440 --> 0:45:15.440 Yeah, they should call it the Greater Cody ecosystem. 0:45:15.480 --> 0:45:16.440 Most simmar in Wyoming. 0:45:16.520 --> 0:45:20.600 Yeah, the Wyoming ecosystem. Yeah, there's three states. The bulk 0:45:20.600 --> 0:45:22.759 of it's in Wyholming. But the three states take an 0:45:22.760 --> 0:45:25.520 attitude where they're like, uh, okay, if d listing goes 0:45:25.560 --> 0:45:28.080 through and we take what that means is the states 0:45:28.120 --> 0:45:31.560 now manage it as a wild as wildlife under their jurisdiction. 0:45:32.719 --> 0:45:35.400 Idaho says, this is twenty twenty. 0:45:35.560 --> 0:45:37.759 Is this when it's happened last seventeen? 0:45:37.880 --> 0:45:38.080 Yeah? 0:45:38.800 --> 0:45:39.200 Earlier? 0:45:39.320 --> 0:45:43.759 Yeah, Idaho says we're going to give out one grizzly tag. 0:45:44.000 --> 0:45:45.600 Yeah. 0:45:45.960 --> 0:45:50.600 Montana chicken shits out right and they say, not going 0:45:50.640 --> 0:45:52.840 to play this game. We're not doing any grizzly tags. 0:45:52.880 --> 0:45:55.680 Montana actually had to give part of their quota to 0:45:55.719 --> 0:45:58.399 Idaho so the Ida Idaho could have one. 0:45:58.560 --> 0:46:02.759 Oh is that right? Yeah, Wyoming just lays all on 0:46:02.840 --> 0:46:07.359 the table. Yeah, and they're gonna give out twenty four tags, right. Yeah. 0:46:09.520 --> 0:46:13.160 Guys like me who really want who really think that 0:46:13.160 --> 0:46:16.040 the grizzies should be delisted, and I think that state 0:46:16.120 --> 0:46:20.239 management and I'm very open and enthusiastic about a very 0:46:20.280 --> 0:46:23.480 limited grizzly bear hunting season. Guys like me. As part 0:46:23.520 --> 0:46:27.319 of our rhetoric, if we were being unscrupulous, we would 0:46:27.360 --> 0:46:30.160 say that by opening up a hunting season, it'll reduce 0:46:30.320 --> 0:46:33.240 conflict because bears will learn to be scared of people. 0:46:34.480 --> 0:46:35.560 Not true. 0:46:36.880 --> 0:46:40.080 That's why I stopped saying it, because it was intellectually dishonest. Yeah, 0:46:40.280 --> 0:46:42.960 talk about that. I just spent like an hour setting 0:46:43.040 --> 0:46:45.960 up the question. But give me your feelings on all 0:46:46.040 --> 0:46:49.320 of this, all of this whole deal, all of this hunt, 0:46:49.400 --> 0:46:52.880 don't hunt, the bears need to learn to be scared 0:46:52.920 --> 0:46:55.200 and respect humans, and blah blah blah. 0:46:55.320 --> 0:46:57.440 Yeah, I don't know where you can start. He opened 0:46:57.480 --> 0:47:01.200 up so many holes there I beight shops. 0:47:03.440 --> 0:47:05.480 Do you think grizzlies would be nervous of people if 0:47:05.480 --> 0:47:06.600 we started hunting them again? 0:47:07.440 --> 0:47:09.760 I got one? 0:47:10.040 --> 0:47:11.080 If I got one? 0:47:11.200 --> 0:47:14.840 Did you hear about bear four twenty two. 0:47:15.160 --> 0:47:18.040 I mean maybe at some level. I don't know personally 0:47:18.120 --> 0:47:20.400 because I haven't been there, but they talk about bears 0:47:20.400 --> 0:47:23.560 on Kodiak Island being like really weary of human scent 0:47:24.400 --> 0:47:27.360 because they're heavily hunted and always have been and always 0:47:27.400 --> 0:47:32.000 have been, and same with Sweden. So maybe at some level, 0:47:32.120 --> 0:47:35.279 But the reality is, you know, you have black bear 0:47:35.400 --> 0:47:39.799 populations all over America that are hunted and there's still 0:47:39.800 --> 0:47:43.280 black bear conflicts, so you're still gonna have conflicts with bears. 0:47:45.160 --> 0:47:48.600 Bears do learn on experience with humans. If they have 0:47:48.640 --> 0:47:52.799 a negative encounter, then they're more likely to run away 0:47:52.800 --> 0:47:55.799 from a human. But I just don't think you'll hunt 0:47:55.800 --> 0:47:59.680 them at a level that would be that would change 0:47:59.719 --> 0:48:00.400 their being behavior. 0:48:00.840 --> 0:48:01.240 Yeah. 0:48:01.480 --> 0:48:05.520 So you know, they delisted in two thousand and seven, 0:48:06.600 --> 0:48:08.759 and that delisting went from two thousand and seven to 0:48:08.800 --> 0:48:11.120 two thousand and nine when a judge put him back 0:48:11.160 --> 0:48:11.720 on the list. 0:48:11.920 --> 0:48:14.680 Because it's always the same judge in Missoula. 0:48:14.760 --> 0:48:17.000 Wow, this was a different judge. I was, Oh, yeah, 0:48:17.040 --> 0:48:20.359 there was Molloy and then Dana Christiansen, and we knew 0:48:20.400 --> 0:48:23.000 we were in trouble when when Dana Christiansen had said 0:48:23.480 --> 0:48:27.600 My spirit animal is the wolverine. You know any judge with. 0:48:27.560 --> 0:48:29.480 That, that's cultural appropriation anyways. 0:48:29.719 --> 0:48:32.160 Yeah, I don't know any judge with a spirit animal. 0:48:32.239 --> 0:48:35.280 Yeah, they should have gotten him. They should have attacked 0:48:35.360 --> 0:48:38.320 him from the woke spectrum and said that that's cultural 0:48:38.320 --> 0:48:42.400 appropriation and you should be fired. That was before wokens. 0:48:42.480 --> 0:48:47.560 I believe man be freaking out. Man, I just don't coffee. 0:48:47.560 --> 0:48:48.200 It just died. 0:48:48.680 --> 0:48:49.759 Get some more coffee on that. 0:48:50.520 --> 0:48:55.760 For anyone listening. Steve spilled a large cup of coffee 0:48:55.760 --> 0:48:59.399 on his computer moments before we began recording Field. 0:48:59.400 --> 0:49:02.000 Do you have the tech capabilities to plug that clip in? 0:49:03.120 --> 0:49:04.959 Which clip? Well, because I was kind of talking about 0:49:05.080 --> 0:49:07.319 I was talking to Oh, absolutely, yeah, we can do it. 0:49:08.239 --> 0:49:10.440 Cut out me saying that bad stuff about that actor 0:49:10.480 --> 0:49:20.399 though it doesn't really inspire. Oh shit, one of those 0:49:20.440 --> 0:49:27.319 dudes that doesn't really inspire, like it, guys. I was 0:49:27.320 --> 0:49:30.040 observing that there's an actor that's in a lot of movies, 0:49:30.040 --> 0:49:31.520 but no one cares about him, and I don't want 0:49:31.600 --> 0:49:33.319 that to get out. I feel like that's that's the 0:49:33.360 --> 0:49:36.200 definition of a great character actor. No one cares about him, 0:49:36.239 --> 0:49:38.440 but you're you're happy to see him right, Yeah, I 0:49:38.480 --> 0:49:38.839 don't know. 0:49:39.000 --> 0:49:40.319 He always brings it. Yeah. 0:49:41.000 --> 0:49:43.839 Uh so so yeah, so back back to this and 0:49:43.840 --> 0:49:45.759 and and pardon me for not know what I'm talking about. 0:49:45.760 --> 0:49:47.240 I thought it was the same judge both times. 0:49:47.239 --> 0:49:50.240 But anyways, No, you're right that they do go judge shopping. 0:49:50.480 --> 0:49:54.399 That that's part of this whole thing. But yeah, two 0:49:54.400 --> 0:49:56.560 thousand and seven, two thousand and nine, Wyoming didn't have 0:49:56.560 --> 0:49:59.800 a hunting season even though the population was recovered. We 0:49:59.800 --> 0:50:03.600 could to use hunting as management tool, and when they 0:50:03.640 --> 0:50:07.440 got relisted, I think the state's opinion was, the next 0:50:07.480 --> 0:50:10.040 time they get delisted, we're gonna hunt these things, and 0:50:10.080 --> 0:50:13.440 we're it's not to control the population, it's to create 0:50:13.480 --> 0:50:15.960 a social pattern of hunting. 0:50:16.480 --> 0:50:19.920 That's what see, that's that's a good way of putting it. Yeah, 0:50:19.960 --> 0:50:22.919 that's what I want the states to do it because 0:50:22.920 --> 0:50:26.600 I want them to quickly exercise the management authority. 0:50:26.320 --> 0:50:31.399 And Montana checking out chickening out was a bad move 0:50:31.400 --> 0:50:34.160 in my opinion, because you're setting a precedent that that 0:50:34.239 --> 0:50:35.120 you're not hunting them. 0:50:35.200 --> 0:50:37.120 Yeah, and I remember they were going to chicken out 0:50:37.120 --> 0:50:38.640 for five years or something like that. 0:50:39.000 --> 0:50:42.040 Yeah, I think that's true this time around too. They've 0:50:42.040 --> 0:50:45.160 said that recently in recent history. 0:50:45.320 --> 0:50:47.959 Yeah, I don't know that they would make that choice now, 0:50:48.719 --> 0:50:50.520 but at the time they were they had a plan 0:50:50.600 --> 0:50:52.760 to like formally chicken out for five years. 0:50:52.920 --> 0:50:53.200 Yeah. 0:50:53.960 --> 0:50:56.560 Uh. You know what's interesting about that when I say, 0:50:56.600 --> 0:50:59.480 like even the Idaho play, as weird as it was 0:50:59.520 --> 0:51:02.360 to do one on the Idaho play of the social 0:51:02.400 --> 0:51:05.440 maneuver of doing the hunt. I remember I was talking 0:51:05.480 --> 0:51:07.560 to these guys that were really involved in the elk 0:51:07.600 --> 0:51:14.359 reintroduction in Kentucky and they were nervous about this. So 0:51:15.040 --> 0:51:18.000 they ever since when when they started working on the 0:51:18.000 --> 0:51:22.120 elk reintroduction, which was state agency Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, 0:51:22.760 --> 0:51:26.320 it was like, because of hunting, and will hunt them, 0:51:26.560 --> 0:51:28.960 and we'll hunt them, even though those years in the future, 0:51:30.120 --> 0:51:34.880 they baked it into every conversation to not then down 0:51:34.920 --> 0:51:38.719 the road go like, oh, hey, now that we got 0:51:38.760 --> 0:51:41.480 all these elk, how about we have a hunting season. 0:51:41.520 --> 0:51:44.320 It was like they were they were deliberate about setting 0:51:44.320 --> 0:51:49.080 an expectation that that's where this would go. And you 0:51:49.160 --> 0:51:51.239 see when you see signs around any anyway you go 0:51:51.280 --> 0:51:54.120 around in this area, you'll see signs delisting means hunting 0:51:54.640 --> 0:51:58.719 and it's it's meant to be delisting means hunting, and 0:51:58.760 --> 0:52:01.560 it's meant to be like an anti delisting. They're coming 0:52:01.640 --> 0:52:04.360 right out and saying, we're not gonna we're not looking 0:52:04.360 --> 0:52:06.040 to argue about how many bears they are, because no 0:52:06.040 --> 0:52:09.040 one's gonna argue that bears are stable. They're looking to 0:52:09.080 --> 0:52:13.560 be like they're using the ESA, they're using any Endangered 0:52:13.600 --> 0:52:17.680 Species Act not as a management tool. They're using it 0:52:17.719 --> 0:52:20.960 as a way that they can prevent something from happening 0:52:21.040 --> 0:52:24.400 that they don't want to happen. It's like, it's my 0:52:24.560 --> 0:52:28.080 favorite Animal Protection Act. It is not the Endangered Species Act, 0:52:28.280 --> 0:52:30.520 and they even know it, and their rhetoric mirrors it. 0:52:30.560 --> 0:52:32.920 But when I look and I see that sign delisting 0:52:33.080 --> 0:52:35.520 means hunting, I always think, I sure hope they're right. 0:52:36.239 --> 0:52:39.719 Yeah, you're rooting for that. 0:52:41.280 --> 0:52:43.839 And they'll always show a sow with cubs, the one 0:52:43.840 --> 0:52:46.080 they use around here. Sure, they show a saw with 0:52:46.160 --> 0:52:50.040 cubs with a crosshair. Yeah. I'm like, but you can't 0:52:50.040 --> 0:52:53.759 shoot cells with cubs. Yeah, so that's a poacher. They 0:52:53.800 --> 0:52:54.880 should arrest that person. 0:52:57.000 --> 0:53:00.920 We actually had, like I remember having five heights talking 0:53:00.960 --> 0:53:03.680 about how many bears we were going to harvest and 0:53:04.160 --> 0:53:06.920 a game warden in a district that has a lot 0:53:06.960 --> 0:53:09.800 of bears thought that twenty four was like not nearly 0:53:09.960 --> 0:53:12.880 enough and and was upset about it. And it's like, 0:53:12.920 --> 0:53:17.160 we're not trying to manage the population totally through hunting. 0:53:17.640 --> 0:53:21.759 We're trying to create a social standard for hunting. You know, 0:53:25.320 --> 0:53:27.279 I say we, But that was past. 0:53:27.840 --> 0:53:30.919 Years when we first started this podcast, million years ago 0:53:31.880 --> 0:53:34.560 in an office where me and my wife, Me and 0:53:34.560 --> 0:53:37.720 my wife had dinner not a great one either, across 0:53:37.719 --> 0:53:42.040 the road from our original old office last night on 0:53:42.080 --> 0:53:46.000 our little date night. Anyways, in that office upstairs, we 0:53:46.200 --> 0:53:49.000 and one of our early early podcasts we first launched 0:53:49.040 --> 0:53:52.440 a podcast. We had a guy from the USGS, Frank 0:53:52.760 --> 0:53:56.279 mcmahonan man. What is his name, Van Man? We had 0:53:56.360 --> 0:53:59.919 him on talk about He yeah, he does demographics on Grizzy. 0:54:00.480 --> 0:54:00.719 Sure. 0:54:01.000 --> 0:54:05.080 So the USGS is a it's a federal organization, and 0:54:05.120 --> 0:54:10.200 the USGS doesn't do policy. The USGS doesn't manage land, Okay, 0:54:10.320 --> 0:54:13.600 like the US Forest Service, the Usdaight manages land, US 0:54:13.640 --> 0:54:17.400 Fish and Wildlife Service manages refuges, the National Park Service 0:54:17.480 --> 0:54:21.320 manages parks. You have a bunch of land management federal agencies. 0:54:21.360 --> 0:54:24.680 The USGS doesn't do land management, they don't do policy. 0:54:24.760 --> 0:54:29.680 Their mandate is information. Sure, they provide information. So this 0:54:29.680 --> 0:54:32.080 this guest we had, it's a great podcast. We want 0:54:32.080 --> 0:54:34.000 to go back and listen. Love it's still relevant today. 0:54:34.600 --> 0:54:38.760 This guest we had explained we got to talk about demographics, 0:54:39.480 --> 0:54:43.879 grizzy bear demographics. And there's the number. At that time, 0:54:43.920 --> 0:54:45.279 I don't know what the number is now. The number 0:54:45.280 --> 0:54:47.000 at that time was something like it was like fixed. 0:54:47.000 --> 0:54:52.040 It was like carved in stone, seven hundred okay, yeah, 0:54:52.280 --> 0:54:53.640 and it will And he explained that. I was like, 0:54:53.640 --> 0:54:56.719 where does that number come from? What they had looked 0:54:56.719 --> 0:54:59.600 at is at a time they looked at, Okay, in 0:54:59.680 --> 0:55:07.439 this ecosystem, how much space does a breeding age female use? 0:55:07.760 --> 0:55:10.239 Thirty square kilometers was the estimate. 0:55:10.120 --> 0:55:13.239 That okayep And they would draw what's that little shape 0:55:13.280 --> 0:55:16.560 you draw on them at an octagon or polygon? 0:55:16.840 --> 0:55:22.400 Yeah, it was actually a grid. Okay, but yeah, and 0:55:22.440 --> 0:55:24.120 that was called the chow To model. 0:55:24.239 --> 0:55:26.919 Yeah. Explain, yeah, okay, so you know about the shit, Yeah, 0:55:27.520 --> 0:55:30.600 explain how the number was arrived at. And then and 0:55:30.640 --> 0:55:32.759 then I'm going to share with you something he told 0:55:32.760 --> 0:55:35.359 me about the number that I was like we spent 0:55:35.440 --> 0:55:38.520 an hour talking about yeah, because he would say at 0:55:38.640 --> 0:55:43.160 least I'd go, how many at least seven forty? Well, 0:55:43.160 --> 0:55:46.040 how many at least seven forty? Yeah, well how many 0:55:46.239 --> 0:55:47.440 at least seven forty? 0:55:49.160 --> 0:55:51.719 Yeah, So that model has been updated twice since then. 0:55:51.760 --> 0:55:54.319 Okay, but explain how it's like, it's really fascinating how 0:55:54.320 --> 0:55:55.359 you make a model like this. 0:55:55.480 --> 0:55:57.799 Okay, So bears are really hard to count because they're 0:55:57.960 --> 0:56:03.239 solitary nature. They're not territory. Their home ranges overlap, so just. 0:56:03.160 --> 0:56:06.279 Say solitary but not territorial, right. 0:56:06.880 --> 0:56:10.680 They like to be in visialistic, but they don't have territories, 0:56:11.160 --> 0:56:14.520 not like a mountain lion. Solitary nature has a territory. 0:56:14.560 --> 0:56:17.239 It's keeping other cats out of there. So if there's 0:56:17.239 --> 0:56:19.520 food availability, their home ranges overlap. 0:56:20.239 --> 0:56:22.080 Oh, I've never even thought about that term. That's a 0:56:22.080 --> 0:56:24.600 great term. Solitary but not territorial. 0:56:24.320 --> 0:56:27.120 Right, And that's what happened with the model. That's what 0:56:27.160 --> 0:56:31.440 makes them really difficult to count. So the early research 0:56:31.520 --> 0:56:36.920 showed that a grizzly bear sal's home range was thirty 0:56:36.920 --> 0:56:42.600 square kilometers, so when they were counting, if you're counting 0:56:42.640 --> 0:56:46.160 bears and there's you break the system, the ecosystem up 0:56:46.200 --> 0:56:48.960 into a grid, and there's a sow with cubs in 0:56:48.960 --> 0:56:52.440 one of those squares. You cross off that grid because 0:56:52.480 --> 0:56:57.040 you don't want to you want to lean conservative, you 0:56:57.080 --> 0:57:00.960 don't want to overestimate the population. One with that model 0:57:01.080 --> 0:57:05.160 is as the population gets higher in density, your model 0:57:05.200 --> 0:57:09.480 gets more and more biased because of those home ranges overlapping. 0:57:10.000 --> 0:57:10.280 Yep. 0:57:11.120 --> 0:57:16.360 So that model maxed out at seven forty, Like I 0:57:16.400 --> 0:57:20.560 can't remember seven fifty. Maybe you couldn't get it. You 0:57:20.600 --> 0:57:23.640 couldn't shove any more grizzly bears into the ecosystem in 0:57:23.680 --> 0:57:26.600 that model. They went back and they looked at color 0:57:26.680 --> 0:57:29.520 data and they found out that SAO's home range was 0:57:29.560 --> 0:57:31.760 more like fourteen square kilometers. 0:57:32.480 --> 0:57:35.240 You know, I gotta this is great, but I want 0:57:35.240 --> 0:57:37.760 to add in a thing here. Yeah. That he'd explained 0:57:37.840 --> 0:57:42.280 is be that when they make the model, you're just 0:57:42.600 --> 0:57:46.400 you count you're trying to count breeding age females, and 0:57:46.400 --> 0:57:46.960 then you look. 0:57:46.840 --> 0:57:49.040 At what with cubs of the year, okay, and then to. 0:57:49.000 --> 0:57:51.840 Look at what you know about the demographics, meaning that 0:57:51.960 --> 0:57:53.640 you could go into a let's say you could go 0:57:53.640 --> 0:58:00.520 into a country perhaps and count how many how many 0:58:00.840 --> 0:58:04.920 females with children are in this country, and then probably 0:58:04.960 --> 0:58:07.800 go like, okay, so we know human males and human 0:58:07.880 --> 0:58:11.760 females are born at a one to one ratio. We 0:58:11.880 --> 0:58:18.600 know that like a female is most active reproductively between 0:58:19.040 --> 0:58:22.280 twenty four and thirty eight, and that they have on 0:58:22.480 --> 0:58:26.760 average two point two kids, and so we can just 0:58:26.800 --> 0:58:29.560 look at how many moms there are and make a 0:58:29.600 --> 0:58:31.960 guess at what the human population is in that country. 0:58:32.560 --> 0:58:34.320 That's kind of what you're doing with grizzies, right, You're like, 0:58:34.880 --> 0:58:38.320 we know that that you got males, you got cubs, 0:58:38.400 --> 0:58:41.800 but if we can know this one number, we can 0:58:41.840 --> 0:58:45.400 extrapolate outward to get a sense of how many are there, 0:58:46.080 --> 0:58:47.760 rather than mechanically counting them. 0:58:47.920 --> 0:58:50.520 Yeah, you have. You know that they're the driver of 0:58:50.520 --> 0:58:54.000 the population. But what you're describing is actually more like 0:58:54.040 --> 0:58:57.280 a census, and that's closer to what the model is now. 0:58:57.600 --> 0:59:02.840 It's an integrated population model. But you know, yeah, the 0:59:03.240 --> 0:59:09.080 ratio of bears in the ecosystem you have, however many 0:59:09.120 --> 0:59:13.120 adult males you have, however many subadult bears and females 0:59:13.120 --> 0:59:17.800 with cubs are driving your population. So it's just a 0:59:17.920 --> 0:59:25.120 multiplier understood essentially, so it got changed to fourteen square 0:59:25.160 --> 0:59:30.120 kilometers and that made the estimate more like twelve hundred bears. 0:59:30.920 --> 0:59:33.840 And then what you just described is now what they're 0:59:33.880 --> 0:59:38.880 doing is an integrated population model, and it's more of 0:59:38.920 --> 0:59:42.840 a census and you can plug in other factors. 0:59:43.200 --> 0:59:43.720 I got it. 0:59:43.760 --> 0:59:47.439 So what's the number now, ten oneenty thirty. 0:59:48.280 --> 0:59:49.520 How good you think that number is? 0:59:51.880 --> 0:59:55.600 I think that's pretty accurate. I think there's definitely parts 0:59:55.640 --> 0:59:58.360 of the ecosystem where there's higher densities than other parts. 0:59:58.960 --> 1:00:02.320 And growing up in Cody, I just assumed everywhere had 1:00:02.400 --> 1:00:05.080 really high densities, and you go to other parts and 1:00:05.120 --> 1:00:08.880 they're just not. And this new modeling system is going 1:00:08.880 --> 1:00:11.800 to incorporate some of that and show you where where 1:00:11.840 --> 1:00:17.240 there's more density of bears. And that's only in the 1:00:17.280 --> 1:00:21.440 demographic monitoring monitoring area. So there's bears that live outside 1:00:22.120 --> 1:00:25.520 where they're even looking for bears. So that is a 1:00:25.600 --> 1:00:30.040 minimum because they're not counting bears that aren't in suitable habitat. 1:00:30.600 --> 1:00:32.840 Oh really, yeah, they might be living years. 1:00:32.880 --> 1:00:34.720 They're not counting bears that don't count. 1:00:35.200 --> 1:00:35.480 Yeah. 1:00:35.560 --> 1:00:38.720 Yeah, So if a bear moves out into like if 1:00:38.760 --> 1:00:41.520 a bear moves out of and moves out into like 1:00:41.640 --> 1:00:44.160 Fort Benton, out of out of the Shouldo area and 1:00:44.240 --> 1:00:47.800 just keeps going east. He leaves the counting. 1:00:47.440 --> 1:00:50.160 Area if he's there year round, if he's outside of 1:00:50.200 --> 1:00:53.560 their their demographic monitoring area. And I don't know about 1:00:53.560 --> 1:00:55.920 the NCDE, but that's how they did it with the 1:00:55.960 --> 1:00:58.760 g ye got it. Yeah, you got to be in 1:00:58.800 --> 1:01:01.680 a bear place to be a bear. Yeah, stract don't 1:01:01.680 --> 1:01:02.800 count outliers. 1:01:03.000 --> 1:01:06.680 So there's about So tell me the number again, you think, oney? Thirty? 1:01:06.800 --> 1:01:09.600 Yeah, and it was as high as twelve hundred was 1:01:09.760 --> 1:01:11.880 estimate a couple of years ago before they changed to 1:01:11.920 --> 1:01:15.920 this other model. But it has a lot more factors. 1:01:15.960 --> 1:01:18.400 It's a lot more accurate. God, it's my understanding. 1:01:18.760 --> 1:01:19.160 That's good. 1:01:19.240 --> 1:01:21.360 No, I still thought it was that old seven. 1:01:22.080 --> 1:01:24.160 Yeah. I didn't know that anyone moved beyond that number. 1:01:24.240 --> 1:01:27.640 That was laughable. People in my hometown never believe that. 1:01:28.960 --> 1:01:36.840 Why do they Why do they seem to congregate in 1:01:36.880 --> 1:01:39.720 these little micro areas so much. There's just some like 1:01:39.800 --> 1:01:42.160 valleys that are like such hot spots, and you go 1:01:42.200 --> 1:01:44.160 to another valley and you could go to another value 1:01:44.200 --> 1:01:46.440 and hang out there over the years, ten ten years 1:01:46.880 --> 1:01:48.960 and never lay eyes on one. But then there's like, 1:01:49.520 --> 1:01:51.360 you can't it just doesn't. You can't really tell the 1:01:51.360 --> 1:01:52.720 difference from looking at them. 1:01:52.960 --> 1:01:56.400 It's just food availability, food sources, and some of it's 1:01:56.480 --> 1:02:00.320 learned behavior. And my part of the woods, we have 1:02:00.360 --> 1:02:03.240 what are called moth sites, and there's these bears on 1:02:03.280 --> 1:02:06.840 moth sites, and you know, I've done flights where I've 1:02:06.840 --> 1:02:09.440 counted forty bears on moss sites. So there's a high 1:02:09.480 --> 1:02:12.480 concentration of food, and that's one of the highest caloric 1:02:12.600 --> 1:02:14.080 value foods in the ecosystem. 1:02:14.160 --> 1:02:15.160 He explain what that means. 1:02:15.880 --> 1:02:16.640 Cloric value? 1:02:16.760 --> 1:02:19.400 No, what a moth? I know about it? Oh, yeah, 1:02:19.640 --> 1:02:21.440 I know a little bit, but just tell people what 1:02:21.480 --> 1:02:21.840 that is. 1:02:22.000 --> 1:02:25.640 So there's these army cutworm moths that migrate from the 1:02:25.680 --> 1:02:29.080 Midwest and they come up in the mountains at night 1:02:29.240 --> 1:02:32.240 pollinate flowers, and then in the daytime they get in 1:02:32.320 --> 1:02:37.480 these talus slopes and they use that as a heat refugia, 1:02:38.200 --> 1:02:41.320 and bears come along and they flip over those rocks 1:02:41.320 --> 1:02:44.280 and eat those bugs. And they're probably eating twenty to 1:02:44.360 --> 1:02:45.240 forty thousand of. 1:02:45.200 --> 1:02:48.080 Those moths a day, licking them up. 1:02:47.960 --> 1:02:53.400 Licking them up, yep. And it's just a really rich 1:02:53.480 --> 1:02:56.280 food source for bears in ecosystem. But what I was 1:02:56.320 --> 1:02:59.160 going to say is there's places in the ecosystem where 1:02:59.200 --> 1:03:02.640 there's moss sites and there's not bears utilizing them, So 1:03:02.920 --> 1:03:05.840 they think it's a learned behavior, like. 1:03:05.960 --> 1:03:12.480 They know about it, right yep. Huh, Like if you 1:03:12.520 --> 1:03:14.840 took all the bears out and put new ones back in, 1:03:14.880 --> 1:03:16.040 they might not find those. 1:03:15.880 --> 1:03:19.280 Moths maybe not for a while, or they use different ones, 1:03:20.160 --> 1:03:21.200 or they could use different ones. 1:03:21.280 --> 1:03:24.880 Yeah, yeah, huh. What are some of the other main foods, 1:03:24.880 --> 1:03:27.000 Like everybody likes to think of them just you know, 1:03:27.120 --> 1:03:29.920 eating elk calves, But when you had a list like 1:03:29.960 --> 1:03:32.120 their main grub sources, what do you think it is? 1:03:33.360 --> 1:03:37.160 Uh, vegetation. You know, bears eat a lot of different 1:03:37.280 --> 1:03:40.439 roots and tubers and corns, and that's a big one. 1:03:40.440 --> 1:03:44.360 In the spring, elk calves is a big food source. 1:03:44.480 --> 1:03:49.320 I mean, that's kind of undeniable. These moths sites. There 1:03:49.360 --> 1:03:52.840 are a few places in the ecosystem where they eat 1:03:52.920 --> 1:03:58.800 those cutthroat trout that are spawning white bark pine. But 1:03:59.160 --> 1:04:02.520 they did a food synthesis analysis on bears and found 1:04:02.600 --> 1:04:04.880 that they eat over two hundred and sixty different plants 1:04:04.880 --> 1:04:09.400 and animals so kid. Yeah, in the Yellstone ecosystem, they 1:04:09.400 --> 1:04:12.680 have the most diverse diet. 1:04:11.880 --> 1:04:13.800 Two hundred and sixty species. Yep. 1:04:14.320 --> 1:04:16.280 That bear that I caught there was six twenty four. 1:04:17.200 --> 1:04:20.200 I figured that he was probably eating meat year round. 1:04:20.640 --> 1:04:23.920 You know, that bear was going from winter kill carcasses 1:04:24.840 --> 1:04:30.960 to elk calves, to moths, to killing cattle in the 1:04:31.000 --> 1:04:35.360 fall because we'd caught him before killing cattle, to eating 1:04:35.400 --> 1:04:38.440 gut piles. You know, he was eating probably nothing but meat. 1:04:38.760 --> 1:04:39.680 How old was that bear? 1:04:40.480 --> 1:04:40.760 Mmm? 1:04:42.000 --> 1:04:46.160 I don't remember. I caught another bear that was five 1:04:46.280 --> 1:04:49.960 hundred and twenty pounds in the spring, same exact location, 1:04:50.960 --> 1:04:54.440 and I caught him eight years later and he was 1:04:54.480 --> 1:04:55.479 twenty eight years old. 1:04:55.960 --> 1:04:57.880 Wow, Holy cow man. 1:04:58.480 --> 1:05:02.040 So that other bear could be thirty I think. I think, well, 1:05:02.120 --> 1:05:04.200 when he was twenty eight, that bear was past his prime. 1:05:04.600 --> 1:05:07.480 Maybe when other bear was probably between fifteen and twenty. 1:05:07.560 --> 1:05:11.000 Gotcha, Yeah, man, it's twenty eight. 1:05:12.040 --> 1:05:14.520 Zach Turnbull caught one that was thirty two in the 1:05:14.600 --> 1:05:15.440 Upper Green. 1:05:16.960 --> 1:05:18.480 And that's got to be getting close to mass. 1:05:18.520 --> 1:05:22.000 That's the oldest bear they've caught in the ecosystem. 1:05:22.160 --> 1:05:28.680 Yeah, yeah, yeah. In your mind, what is the what 1:05:28.840 --> 1:05:32.720 is the most common sort of way things play out 1:05:32.760 --> 1:05:34.720 when people get scratched up by a bear. 1:05:36.200 --> 1:05:39.360 Hmmm, what do you mean, like, how. 1:05:39.680 --> 1:05:41.560 If you were if you were no, no, no, no, I'm sorry, 1:05:41.640 --> 1:05:44.480 if you were going to look at from all the 1:05:44.520 --> 1:05:46.760 things you've heard and seen, when someone gets mauled by 1:05:46.760 --> 1:05:48.480 a bear, what is the normal. 1:05:48.160 --> 1:05:50.040 Scenario surprise encounter? 1:05:50.720 --> 1:05:53.720 Probably like you're spooking it. 1:05:53.960 --> 1:05:57.840 Yeah, and probably sounds with cubs more than anything else. 1:05:58.720 --> 1:06:01.240 You know, I see a big adult mail track, I'm 1:06:01.280 --> 1:06:03.880 not nervous. I see a little tiny cub track, and 1:06:03.880 --> 1:06:06.240 I'm like really looking around. 1:06:06.520 --> 1:06:11.560 Yeah, so it's that you like jump it at close range. 1:06:12.120 --> 1:06:15.480 Yeah, that's the majority of them. You know, there's a 1:06:15.520 --> 1:06:18.520 lot of cases every year where guys get elk down 1:06:18.640 --> 1:06:22.920 and and there's bears coming into those dead elk or 1:06:22.960 --> 1:06:26.200 they're going back to retrieve a bear or excuse me 1:06:26.280 --> 1:06:29.439 an elk carcass and and they jump a bear. That's 1:06:29.440 --> 1:06:33.320 pretty common too. I mean it's it's food, cubs and 1:06:33.800 --> 1:06:38.040 personal space, And a lot of times you're getting cubs 1:06:38.080 --> 1:06:39.760 and personal space at the same time. 1:06:40.080 --> 1:06:43.880 Got it, that's trouble. Yeah, do you believe you know, 1:06:43.920 --> 1:06:45.600 there's like a thing I don't know if it's a 1:06:45.880 --> 1:06:48.480 if it's a what's the opposite of an urban legend, 1:06:49.080 --> 1:06:49.840 rural legend? 1:06:51.560 --> 1:06:52.160 Rural myth? 1:06:52.600 --> 1:06:58.040 Okay, like my brother redneck talk my brother Danny, he 1:06:58.160 --> 1:07:03.280 now and then goes in, uh hunts kodyac but after 1:07:03.360 --> 1:07:05.800 you know, he hunts in the winter for black tail deer. Right, 1:07:06.280 --> 1:07:10.720 and he'll swear when the bears are down, he'll swear 1:07:10.760 --> 1:07:14.320 to red fox. No, a gunshot. There's a lot of 1:07:14.320 --> 1:07:17.040 red fox there. He's like, you shoot a deer and 1:07:17.080 --> 1:07:20.840 they're just there. Yeah, and he's like, you know, they're 1:07:20.840 --> 1:07:23.320 smelling it whatever. But it's so fast you can't help. 1:07:23.320 --> 1:07:27.320 But wonder like, are they're like, oh, they're like and they're. 1:07:27.120 --> 1:07:29.080 Like, ooh yeah, go that way. 1:07:29.120 --> 1:07:31.120 You hear people say this about grizzlies. 1:07:30.840 --> 1:07:31.640 Yeah, all the time. 1:07:31.760 --> 1:07:32.560 Do you think that's true? 1:07:32.600 --> 1:07:33.240 No, not at all. 1:07:33.320 --> 1:07:34.600 You don't think they can't do a gunshot. 1:07:34.640 --> 1:07:37.560 No. I'll tell you why, because I have friends that 1:07:37.640 --> 1:07:41.320 are really poor shots, have guided hunters. They're really poor shots. 1:07:41.920 --> 1:07:43.960 And you sit there for fifteen twenty minutes and no 1:07:44.040 --> 1:07:46.560 bears show shows up. We have a shooting range outside 1:07:46.560 --> 1:07:47.000 of Cody. 1:07:47.040 --> 1:07:47.760 It's not full bears. 1:07:47.800 --> 1:07:52.760 It's not full of bears, even though I've caught bears 1:07:52.760 --> 1:07:54.919 adjacent to it, but they're not running to that thing, 1:07:55.600 --> 1:08:00.600 you know, got it. So it's really when you get 1:08:00.640 --> 1:08:04.280 an animal down that blood, that room and smell that guts. 1:08:04.520 --> 1:08:07.200 As soon as that hits the air, you gotta clock 1:08:07.240 --> 1:08:10.200 on you. And what I like to do as a 1:08:10.240 --> 1:08:13.320 guide is start a fire, you know, as long as 1:08:13.360 --> 1:08:15.520 there's not a fireband if I'm in a good location, 1:08:16.840 --> 1:08:20.160 you know, and started upwind because that kind of masks 1:08:20.200 --> 1:08:24.799 that scent and fire. The real reason is it calms 1:08:24.800 --> 1:08:27.719 your hunter down because as soon as they kill something, 1:08:27.760 --> 1:08:29.120 they're like super bear scared. 1:08:29.439 --> 1:08:32.280 Yeah, we do that fire thing caughtting up moose in 1:08:32.320 --> 1:08:36.240 alask especially when it's real thick, I'll get a fire gone. 1:08:36.360 --> 1:08:38.320 I don't know if it's like my owne I just have. 1:08:38.520 --> 1:08:41.559 I don't know. I like to have the idea that 1:08:41.600 --> 1:08:45.680 it somehow broadcasts the human presence more might be total horseshit. 1:08:45.360 --> 1:08:47.200 Yeah, I think so. I don't think bears want to 1:08:47.200 --> 1:08:50.840 come into a fire. So that's just something I've learned 1:08:51.160 --> 1:08:52.559 since after the game and fish. 1:08:52.640 --> 1:08:56.679 You know, have you handled bears that had killed people? 1:08:58.240 --> 1:09:02.479 Hmmm, No, I've handled there's that have mall people. Yeah, 1:09:03.080 --> 1:09:05.639 after the mall and yeah. 1:09:05.479 --> 1:09:07.639 Didn't you tell me that story about how. 1:09:08.560 --> 1:09:12.720 Yeah, so the first yeah, one of my yeah, one 1:09:12.720 --> 1:09:16.519 of my first conflicts that I came on. I wasn't 1:09:16.560 --> 1:09:20.240 even hired on full time yet. I came in the office. 1:09:20.280 --> 1:09:23.240 I was just volunteering on my days off. And my 1:09:23.320 --> 1:09:26.080 boss was on the phone and he said, I remember 1:09:26.160 --> 1:09:28.960 him saying, three maybe four people mauled. I'm on the 1:09:28.960 --> 1:09:31.200 way to the hospital. And he got off the phone 1:09:31.200 --> 1:09:32.680 and he said, hey, can you help us for a 1:09:32.720 --> 1:09:37.160 couple of days, And I said yeah. And there was 1:09:37.160 --> 1:09:40.880 a mauling at by cook City, a campground called Soda Butte. 1:09:42.560 --> 1:09:46.840 There was a human fatality there. And ran up there 1:09:46.880 --> 1:09:50.040 with the trap and you know that was obviously in Montana, 1:09:50.200 --> 1:09:53.719 but we assisted Montana and trying to catch those bears 1:09:53.760 --> 1:09:58.200 and they set the traps. They caught those bears, I 1:09:58.880 --> 1:10:02.240 you know, set but we didn't catch anything. And then 1:10:02.280 --> 1:10:07.439 I was shuttling samples to our vet lab and layer 1:10:07.600 --> 1:10:12.160 me what kind of samples, well, tissue samples from the 1:10:12.200 --> 1:10:15.000 bear to make sure that it was a match. Okay, 1:10:16.479 --> 1:10:19.799 but she had mauled three people and the first tint 1:10:20.560 --> 1:10:22.960 was a young kid and his girlfriend and a dog, 1:10:23.160 --> 1:10:25.479 and she tried to Sorry, she didn't maul, but she 1:10:25.479 --> 1:10:28.400 she tried to attack three different people. She tried to 1:10:28.439 --> 1:10:32.040 come into that tent and the dog started barking, and 1:10:32.840 --> 1:10:35.800 she left it, and that kid got so afraid. I 1:10:35.800 --> 1:10:38.680 call him a kid. He's probably like eighteen nineteen. He 1:10:38.760 --> 1:10:42.679 packed up all his stuff and left, and that Soo 1:10:43.160 --> 1:10:46.920 went further down the campground and there was a couple 1:10:46.960 --> 1:10:52.680 who slept in separate tents because the husband snored and 1:10:54.080 --> 1:10:57.679 maybe maybe they're in a fight, and that Soo ripped 1:10:57.680 --> 1:11:00.640 into a tent and tried to grab that and she 1:11:00.720 --> 1:11:04.519 fought it off, and it actually broke a tooth out 1:11:04.680 --> 1:11:07.519 of the bear's head in her arm. 1:11:08.280 --> 1:11:11.040 Wow. Yeah, it's weird, like all the shit he bit 1:11:11.560 --> 1:11:13.679 in his life that that would break his tooth off. 1:11:13.720 --> 1:11:15.120 It was It was a sow, but she was so 1:11:15.160 --> 1:11:19.519 malnourished that she was desperate, and that was Those are 1:11:19.560 --> 1:11:24.960 predatory attacks, obviously, which is different than your defensive aggressive attacks. 1:11:25.360 --> 1:11:27.960 So then she, yeah, she went further down the campground 1:11:28.000 --> 1:11:30.360 and she got in another tent and she killed and 1:11:30.720 --> 1:11:35.040 ate a guy, and there was three other yearling bears 1:11:35.080 --> 1:11:40.559 with her through those attacks. So I didn't work up 1:11:40.560 --> 1:11:43.920 that bear personally, but yeah, I've worked up other bears 1:11:43.920 --> 1:11:44.639 of mald people. 1:11:46.160 --> 1:11:47.479 Does that give you a creepy feeling? 1:11:48.280 --> 1:11:48.519 Mmm? 1:11:49.200 --> 1:11:52.360 Yeah, I mean I will never forget the look in 1:11:52.400 --> 1:11:54.880 that bear's eyes. It's so to bete. I mean, she 1:11:55.040 --> 1:11:59.640 was so demoralized, and yeah, I'll just never forget the 1:11:59.720 --> 1:12:02.960 way she had her head on her paws and just 1:12:03.000 --> 1:12:04.480 look completely demoralized. 1:12:05.160 --> 1:12:08.280 Like what do you mean demoralized? M just. 1:12:10.080 --> 1:12:11.760 There was like a sadness in her eyes. I don't 1:12:11.800 --> 1:12:12.519 know how else is that? 1:12:12.680 --> 1:12:12.880 Right? 1:12:14.160 --> 1:12:15.880 And you catch a lot of bears and see a 1:12:15.920 --> 1:12:18.280 lot of bears and traps and they avoid eye contact. 1:12:18.840 --> 1:12:22.400 That's really normal, but there was just like a feeling 1:12:22.439 --> 1:12:24.320 about it. I don't know how else to describe it. 1:12:25.120 --> 1:12:29.280 Hum, when they're avoiding eye contact, what do you think. 1:12:29.160 --> 1:12:33.160 That is in the bear world? You know, that's aggressive posturing. 1:12:34.120 --> 1:12:36.160 When I was teaching, eye contact is aggressive. 1:12:36.280 --> 1:12:38.559 Yeah, when I was teaching kids, i'd say, you know, 1:12:38.680 --> 1:12:41.360 especially middle school girls, you know, when you see somebody 1:12:41.400 --> 1:12:43.400 in the hallways and you kind of stare them down, 1:12:44.479 --> 1:12:49.080 that's aggressive posturing. You know you're being mean, right, And 1:12:49.120 --> 1:12:51.639 they all understand that and that's the same with bears, 1:12:52.400 --> 1:12:55.320 is they pretty much avoid eye contact until they're raid 1:12:55.400 --> 1:12:57.479 to rumble the rate to fight. 1:12:58.360 --> 1:13:00.679 M so they'll look away from one another. 1:13:01.240 --> 1:13:04.080 Yeah, yep, those big adult males, when you see them fight, 1:13:04.120 --> 1:13:06.720 they'll circle each other and they'll be avoiding eye contact, 1:13:06.720 --> 1:13:09.599 and when they finally get the nerve to lock eyes, 1:13:09.720 --> 1:13:13.519 that's when they're you know, trying to fight each other. 1:13:14.360 --> 1:13:16.640 Do you think there's a tell if a bear is 1:13:16.640 --> 1:13:19.120 gonna falls charge or charge charge? Do you think there's 1:13:19.160 --> 1:13:20.280 a physical tell? Ye? 1:13:20.880 --> 1:13:24.800 Head posture, Okay, if they're really intent on hurting you, 1:13:24.880 --> 1:13:27.320 their head is as low to the ground as possible. 1:13:27.400 --> 1:13:29.920 They're trying to get there. And you see that with 1:13:29.960 --> 1:13:34.559 self defense shootings. A lot of times guys aim center mass. 1:13:34.760 --> 1:13:38.120 Center mass is the hump, you know, and it doesn't 1:13:38.200 --> 1:13:42.439 kill them. When they're shooting bears. If it's a bluff charge, 1:13:42.479 --> 1:13:44.760 a lot of times their head is high. You know, 1:13:44.800 --> 1:13:47.360 they're kind of high on their front legs and they're 1:13:47.400 --> 1:13:55.000 not coming as fast as they could head down, head down, Yep, 1:13:55.320 --> 1:13:57.920 aim low. 1:13:56.840 --> 1:14:03.640 With your spray, yeah, shot, yeah, with your yeah at 1:14:03.640 --> 1:14:06.559 what let's say, once coming you got prayer spray at 1:14:06.560 --> 1:14:07.240 what distance? 1:14:07.479 --> 1:14:10.080 For you personally, Like, at what distance are you touching 1:14:10.080 --> 1:14:10.760 that spray off? 1:14:10.840 --> 1:14:11.799 Oh, thirty yards? 1:14:12.400 --> 1:14:14.519 Yeah, and you're just letting it rip. Let it rip, 1:14:14.920 --> 1:14:16.960 don't be like trying to don't try to conserve. 1:14:17.600 --> 1:14:21.160 I would, I'd hold it down for a second and spray, 1:14:21.240 --> 1:14:23.960 and you know, if it kept coming, I'm going to 1:14:24.040 --> 1:14:27.719 keep spraying. But yeah, about a second's all it takes. 1:14:29.120 --> 1:14:31.919 What do you think about the wolverine situation, the wolverine 1:14:31.920 --> 1:14:36.640 delisting m or sorry, the wolverine listing? Do you think 1:14:36.680 --> 1:14:38.320 the wolverine listing is warranted? 1:14:41.840 --> 1:14:43.920 I think we're living in a time and age where 1:14:44.400 --> 1:14:49.000 a lot wildlife habitats just getting chopped up, and wolverines 1:14:49.080 --> 1:14:54.320 need a really big home range. And there were links 1:14:54.360 --> 1:14:56.280 in Wyoming and they just kind of blinked out and 1:14:56.320 --> 1:15:02.120 nobody ever noticed. So I don't know a ton about wolverines, 1:15:02.160 --> 1:15:06.400 but I think you probably gotta do everything you can 1:15:06.479 --> 1:15:09.639 to protect their habitat at this point, you think, so, yeah, 1:15:09.680 --> 1:15:13.479 and I you know, they just have such a huge 1:15:13.520 --> 1:15:19.719 home range and this was probably for the south extent 1:15:19.760 --> 1:15:25.120 of their habitat anyways, Yeah, right well down into Colorado. Yeah, 1:15:25.240 --> 1:15:27.120 historically they're probably so far down. 1:15:27.840 --> 1:15:29.639 Yeah, I think that they're using two they use two 1:15:29.680 --> 1:15:30.479 hundred and fifty. 1:15:30.280 --> 1:15:34.639 Square miles five hundred five hundred square that's wild, it's more. 1:15:37.840 --> 1:15:39.800 But same thing with links, you know. They they went 1:15:39.880 --> 1:15:41.640 really far south. And I had a friend that was 1:15:41.680 --> 1:15:44.400 a trapper and he'd always say, it's not like the 1:15:44.479 --> 1:15:50.200 Canadians are excited every time a bobcat crosses into Canada. 1:15:50.600 --> 1:15:51.479 You know, a good point. 1:15:52.080 --> 1:15:54.920 It's just we have a different mentality because they're coming south. 1:15:55.680 --> 1:15:57.000 Yeah, that's a good point. 1:15:57.600 --> 1:15:58.880 What do you think about wolverines? 1:15:59.360 --> 1:16:07.400 Man? Uh, I think that they I think that we 1:16:07.520 --> 1:16:14.559 lack any kind of historic reference. So when someone goes 1:16:14.600 --> 1:16:16.760 and looks and they think that there's a low number 1:16:16.800 --> 1:16:21.360 of wolverines that no one's ever looked at it in 1:16:21.360 --> 1:16:24.840 a sophisticated sense before. One way you could look at 1:16:24.880 --> 1:16:27.719 the research they did is you'd say, man, there's wolvernes 1:16:27.720 --> 1:16:31.080 all over the place, right because they go out and 1:16:31.120 --> 1:16:33.120 do the they hang the carcasses and do the trail 1:16:33.120 --> 1:16:34.360 camp stuff and catch hairs. 1:16:34.439 --> 1:16:36.240 Yeah I actually did that one, did you? 1:16:36.640 --> 1:16:39.640 And so you'd look and be like wow. Like one interpretation, 1:16:39.720 --> 1:16:41.360 you'd be like, huh, that's cool. There's a lot of 1:16:41.360 --> 1:16:45.559 wolverines out there because no one knew. But instead you 1:16:45.640 --> 1:16:50.720 take that you you realize there aren't many, but you 1:16:50.800 --> 1:16:56.559 don't know how many there ever were, right, and then 1:16:56.600 --> 1:16:59.160 you point to an area, you know, you point to 1:16:59.160 --> 1:17:02.040 an area and cannon they had seen a decline, but 1:17:02.080 --> 1:17:04.760 it's not the same kind of area. You're on the 1:17:04.800 --> 1:17:07.200 southern edge, and you just go like, there aren't many, 1:17:07.240 --> 1:17:09.920 therefore they must be endangered. I feel like, without being 1:17:09.960 --> 1:17:14.599 able to have it, demons like a demonstrated decline over time. 1:17:17.960 --> 1:17:20.000 I'm a little suspect, and I also I'm a little 1:17:20.000 --> 1:17:22.760 suspect because I think that they are a I think 1:17:22.800 --> 1:17:27.040 that it's a little bit of a red herring. I 1:17:27.080 --> 1:17:31.120 think that they're being used, that they're being used as 1:17:31.200 --> 1:17:33.760 a tool to get at something that, to get at 1:17:33.760 --> 1:17:34.400 something different. 1:17:35.800 --> 1:17:38.479 Sure that's probably saving habitat. 1:17:38.280 --> 1:17:41.240 Yeah, yeah. And it's like it's like, we want to 1:17:41.280 --> 1:17:45.919 save habitat, which I totally understand. We want to save habitat, 1:17:46.040 --> 1:17:49.000 we want to slow certain development. The way to do 1:17:49.080 --> 1:17:53.120 that is to do the wolverine and get the wolverine listed. 1:17:53.439 --> 1:17:56.000 But then the wolverine will get listed and it'll wind 1:17:56.080 --> 1:17:58.559 up being that you'll see that you can't go and 1:17:58.600 --> 1:18:01.760 snow and beyond certain areas, and you can't trap in 1:18:01.800 --> 1:18:05.120 certain areas. And you'd be like, but but running a 1:18:05.120 --> 1:18:07.799 snowmobil and trapping aren't have it. Don't do habitat destruction. 1:18:08.200 --> 1:18:10.080 If this is all about habitat destruction, why do we 1:18:10.720 --> 1:18:14.320 do it this way? Well, this is very personal. 1:18:15.200 --> 1:18:18.880 Yeah, Steve still collecting his thoughts on this subject. 1:18:19.360 --> 1:18:21.280 You know, back to the point I made earlier about 1:18:21.320 --> 1:18:27.320 links linking out in Wyoming, there's a chance that part 1:18:27.360 --> 1:18:29.880 of that was because of snowmobiles and and what that 1:18:30.000 --> 1:18:33.120 does is creates a path for coyotes to go kill 1:18:33.160 --> 1:18:38.000 snowshoe hairs, which obviously links are dependent on. Got it, 1:18:38.160 --> 1:18:41.639 And so you know, it doesn't seem like snowmobiling has 1:18:41.640 --> 1:18:43.200 an impact, but it. 1:18:43.280 --> 1:18:47.839 May, you know, one of the weirdest ones of those God. 1:18:47.680 --> 1:18:50.240 I don't want to be like a making make me 1:18:50.479 --> 1:18:52.679 sound very green here. That's great. 1:18:53.160 --> 1:18:56.320 Listen that that's that's that's great for me. I mean, uh, 1:18:57.320 --> 1:18:59.400 you know, I like it's a it's good things to 1:18:59.680 --> 1:19:04.360 beerious about. Yeah, uh, think about this. One time we 1:19:04.400 --> 1:19:06.479 spent a lot of time years ago on when there 1:19:06.560 --> 1:19:10.799 was still some caribou that were living in the Idaho Panhandle. Yeah, 1:19:10.840 --> 1:19:13.040 and the efforts to try to save those caribou in 1:19:13.080 --> 1:19:15.200 the in the Selkirk Range, and they would come into 1:19:15.400 --> 1:19:18.479 Idaho Panhandle. Sure, right now there's no caribou in the 1:19:18.520 --> 1:19:19.280 lower forty. 1:19:19.000 --> 1:19:22.760 Eight Yeah, super sad. 1:19:23.320 --> 1:19:26.320 When they looked at that. An interesting thing was that 1:19:27.439 --> 1:19:31.280 they were seeing so much wolf predation on caribou, and 1:19:31.280 --> 1:19:34.559 it was like, why wasn't there, Like, that's nothing new. 1:19:35.080 --> 1:19:39.760 You've had wolves on the landscape right in BC. The 1:19:39.760 --> 1:19:42.679 caribou there, why wasn't it. It was like white tailed 1:19:42.680 --> 1:19:49.280 deer numbers, like like certain certain timber harvest practices created 1:19:49.280 --> 1:19:53.440 a lot of white tailed deer and elk and moose habitat. 1:19:54.680 --> 1:19:59.960 As you brought up that number of ungulates this is 1:20:00.120 --> 1:20:03.440 theory obviously, as you brought up that number of ungulates 1:20:04.479 --> 1:20:08.640 at the edge of caribou habitat, it created an incentive 1:20:09.200 --> 1:20:14.040 for wolves to hunt in the area. And once wolves 1:20:14.160 --> 1:20:15.800 had taken the habit of hunting in that area, because 1:20:15.800 --> 1:20:20.280 they're killing deerd or killing moose, they're getting some caribou. Historically, 1:20:20.360 --> 1:20:24.440 there hadn't been enough like bio mass on the landscape 1:20:24.600 --> 1:20:27.680 to warrant them hunting the area and they would just 1:20:27.680 --> 1:20:31.559 be elsewhere. It's a theory, but it's interesting and you 1:20:31.680 --> 1:20:35.240 think of like like you do this and kylet's now 1:20:35.479 --> 1:20:37.439 push up on snowbill trails and hunt and they got 1:20:37.439 --> 1:20:39.640 a way to get from spot to spot and it 1:20:40.600 --> 1:20:44.000 right right, it's a human cause. It's a human cause, 1:20:44.280 --> 1:20:48.000 very like step by step, kind of hard to track. 1:20:49.479 --> 1:20:52.479 Yeah, I think the corequence of events, the correlations probably 1:20:52.520 --> 1:20:56.599 when snowmobiles got souped up. I'd be curious if that 1:20:56.760 --> 1:21:02.360 was like the years when when those animal's behavior started 1:21:02.360 --> 1:21:02.840 to change. 1:21:03.160 --> 1:21:05.080 Got it when high marking became a thing. 1:21:05.240 --> 1:21:08.280 Yeah, because when I was growing up, you know, you 1:21:08.360 --> 1:21:10.599 were about a foot off the ground and that thing 1:21:10.640 --> 1:21:14.120 didn't go very fast. Yeah, but now you can, you 1:21:14.120 --> 1:21:15.640 can go anywhere with a snowmobile. 1:21:15.880 --> 1:21:19.439 Yeah. I picked up a wolverine on a trail camera 1:21:20.640 --> 1:21:21.200 last year. 1:21:21.479 --> 1:21:23.160 Yeah, and that's cool. 1:21:23.640 --> 1:21:26.880 I felt like I was I felt like I was 1:21:26.880 --> 1:21:28.439 real excited. I sent it to everybody. 1:21:28.520 --> 1:21:34.519 It was like trapping, Yeah, yeah, it was like trapping 1:21:34.560 --> 1:21:35.040 to get one. 1:21:35.600 --> 1:21:36.519 Yeah on a camera. 1:21:36.880 --> 1:21:40.080 No, We've had some game fish guys get some on cameras, 1:21:40.080 --> 1:21:42.680 but it's really rare. And when they were doing that 1:21:42.720 --> 1:21:46.639 population estimate, you know, it was I want to say, 1:21:46.640 --> 1:21:48.840 not more than five in the whole state, And they 1:21:48.840 --> 1:21:53.720 put a lot of effort into trying to identify wolverines. 1:21:54.400 --> 1:21:57.080 Something that was really cool, though, is they had a 1:21:57.080 --> 1:22:00.160 wolverine that had a white arm with a black spot, 1:22:00.680 --> 1:22:04.880 so really unique. And she'd actually been caught in the 1:22:04.920 --> 1:22:07.920 northern part of Yellowstone and had a had a number 1:22:07.960 --> 1:22:10.479 and I think for a while had a transmitter in 1:22:10.520 --> 1:22:12.760 her I'm not sure if that's true, but she was 1:22:12.840 --> 1:22:15.519 fourteen years old. I want to say, wow, r really yep, 1:22:15.720 --> 1:22:17.919 because they're so identifiable. 1:22:17.240 --> 1:22:19.120 They knew about how many and Wyoming. 1:22:20.200 --> 1:22:23.800 Well through all the you know, I think the population 1:22:23.920 --> 1:22:26.679 estenate is probably twenty Is it that low? 1:22:26.760 --> 1:22:28.479 Is that low? Yeah? 1:22:29.560 --> 1:22:32.640 She's really God I might be miss speaking twenty to 1:22:32.680 --> 1:22:43.880 fifty one hundred, No more than. 1:22:39.800 --> 1:22:42.519 We got a lot better to tabitat though. Here. Yeah, 1:22:43.400 --> 1:22:44.759 in the northwest part of the states. 1:22:44.840 --> 1:22:48.400 So how far away was she she said she was 1:22:48.439 --> 1:22:50.240 She had been caught in the northern part of Elstone. 1:22:50.280 --> 1:22:52.680 Do you know where she was then reidentified? 1:22:52.680 --> 1:22:53.320 How far away? 1:22:53.920 --> 1:23:00.519 Fish hawks? Probably eighty miles away? Wow, twenty one and 1:23:00.600 --> 1:23:01.080 twenty two. 1:23:01.640 --> 1:23:06.479 Wyoming game and fish set approximately twenty four wolverinesh. 1:23:05.560 --> 1:23:06.240 Look at this guy. 1:23:06.760 --> 1:23:08.280 It's been a while since I thought about that. 1:23:09.360 --> 1:23:11.679 Man. It makes my cameras things seem even cooler. 1:23:11.840 --> 1:23:15.280 You know who you know who? Osborne Russell is sure man. 1:23:15.600 --> 1:23:16.759 He calls them common. 1:23:17.120 --> 1:23:19.880 Yeah, and he talks about him in by Salt Lake, 1:23:21.120 --> 1:23:21.840 So yeah. 1:23:21.720 --> 1:23:23.599 There's a lot of he calls them common. 1:23:23.800 --> 1:23:28.280 There's a lot of carkajew references in the Mountain Man journals. 1:23:28.640 --> 1:23:31.479 Ye know that oral history stuff does because I would 1:23:31.479 --> 1:23:32.840 not call them common. 1:23:32.880 --> 1:23:36.120 Right, So there's gotta be more than there is now. 1:23:36.520 --> 1:23:39.600 Yeah, Osborne Russell, we covered this very We're working on 1:23:39.680 --> 1:23:42.080 a thing called the Mountain Men. Yeah, sure, part of 1:23:42.120 --> 1:23:46.960 our American History series. And the other thing that you 1:23:47.000 --> 1:23:51.120 just wouldn't believe is, uh, the number of big horns. 1:23:51.800 --> 1:23:53.800 Oh yeah in the early eighteen hundreds. 1:23:53.960 --> 1:23:56.240 Yeah, like not elk, right. 1:23:57.040 --> 1:24:00.599 Big horns. Hundreds, like hundreds of big horns. 1:24:01.160 --> 1:24:06.160 I've talked horns, yeah, big horns and deer. I've talked 1:24:06.160 --> 1:24:10.160 to Larry Todd about this, and there's only two Indian 1:24:10.240 --> 1:24:14.240 camps in Wyoming that have elk parts in them. So 1:24:15.880 --> 1:24:18.040 what I don't understand is there's a really big elk 1:24:18.080 --> 1:24:22.439 migration that comes from Yellowstone and it goes to south 1:24:22.479 --> 1:24:25.479 of Kody, and you know, I imagine it's been going on 1:24:25.520 --> 1:24:29.479 for thousands of years. But you think maybe there weren't 1:24:29.520 --> 1:24:32.559 that many elk back then, or you know, it's more 1:24:32.560 --> 1:24:33.599 buffalo than elk. 1:24:33.640 --> 1:24:37.559 And yeah, Osborne Russell would run into people who were 1:24:38.880 --> 1:24:40.759 like sheep specialists. 1:24:40.439 --> 1:24:45.839 Sheep eaters, sheep. Yeah, we have a bunch of artifacts 1:24:45.880 --> 1:24:49.000 around us that were sheep eater artifacts. They're they're part 1:24:49.000 --> 1:24:53.160 of the Shoshown tribe. But we just learned. 1:24:53.200 --> 1:24:54.240 That's why I scratched it. 1:24:54.880 --> 1:24:57.000 I asked, I actually asked as a person. 1:24:57.200 --> 1:25:02.240 Yea, well I've never known, only preferred. Yeah, that's the 1:25:02.360 --> 1:25:03.479 river that flows through Cody. 1:25:04.520 --> 1:25:10.240 That's yeah, that's that's what got Yeah, you're sitting in Okay. 1:25:10.360 --> 1:25:14.559 Well he would know the rivers and the places go 1:25:14.640 --> 1:25:17.559 by Shoshone, but the people go by Shoshone is sort. 1:25:17.360 --> 1:25:20.760 Of what he was. He was a rapp a hole. Yeah, 1:25:20.840 --> 1:25:23.760 but he lives with Yeah, lives. Yeah, that's true. 1:25:24.080 --> 1:25:26.439 The conclusion we collectively arrived at. 1:25:28.160 --> 1:25:30.479 Have you ever seen the bows that those sheep eaters make? 1:25:30.680 --> 1:25:33.280 No? But I read Osborne Russell's description of the bows. 1:25:34.680 --> 1:25:37.320 Yeah, they're pretty cool. There's a guy named Bob Lucas 1:25:37.479 --> 1:25:40.360 that there's a video of him making one. But they 1:25:40.760 --> 1:25:43.519 take a big horn, sheep horn, and they reverse the 1:25:43.600 --> 1:25:46.880 curl and then they glue it and tie it together 1:25:46.960 --> 1:25:48.639 and it's basically a recurved bow. 1:25:49.080 --> 1:25:50.840 They steam it, reverse it right yep. 1:25:52.680 --> 1:25:52.800 Uh. 1:25:53.240 --> 1:25:57.720 Osborne Russell figures very heavily into our into the thing 1:25:57.760 --> 1:26:00.439 we're working on because he did such. 1:26:00.280 --> 1:26:02.200 A good job of documenting stuff. 1:26:02.400 --> 1:26:08.520 Yeah, such a phenomenal job of making a journal. Uh. 1:26:08.920 --> 1:26:10.800 Tell me about your guide in business? Who do you 1:26:10.840 --> 1:26:11.280 guide for? 1:26:12.600 --> 1:26:16.160 I've guided for a bunch of different outfitters, to be honest, 1:26:16.240 --> 1:26:19.840 and I took this season pretty much off because I 1:26:19.920 --> 1:26:25.360 just had a kid. But I've worked for Yellowstone Country Outfitters, 1:26:25.520 --> 1:26:31.160 three oh seven Outfitters, ran Crick Outfitters, Livingstone Outfitters. So 1:26:31.360 --> 1:26:33.080 I've got to see a lot of country. 1:26:32.880 --> 1:26:34.679 And your specialty these horseback trips. 1:26:35.120 --> 1:26:42.640 Yeah, everything's horseback, horseback and mule sawbucks or deckers sawbuck guy. Yeah, 1:26:42.840 --> 1:26:46.080 I've never understood that though. Montana guys. Yeah, I can't 1:26:46.080 --> 1:26:48.639 take a toothbrush if they don't man yet. 1:26:49.080 --> 1:26:49.320 You know. 1:26:50.680 --> 1:26:52.519 Yeah, I've always thought the same thing. 1:26:53.439 --> 1:26:56.960 Yeah, we always laugh at Sawbucks. Yeah, you'll have to 1:26:57.000 --> 1:27:00.000 teach me, so all right, Yeah, trade seems pretty easy. 1:27:01.600 --> 1:27:04.360 So there's two style of pack saddles. One is what 1:27:04.439 --> 1:27:10.439 you call sawbook, which is seems self explanatory. You hang 1:27:10.560 --> 1:27:12.599 paniards and then you have a lash rope where you 1:27:12.640 --> 1:27:17.520 tie a hitch so keep everything pinned down. And Montana 1:27:17.560 --> 1:27:23.200 guys run what's called decker pack saddles, and they have 1:27:23.360 --> 1:27:27.200 ropes hanging off the bars on their packs and then 1:27:27.560 --> 1:27:32.120 they tie a hitch, usually with something that's man eat up, 1:27:32.360 --> 1:27:38.320 so they pack all their camping stuff in a in 1:27:38.400 --> 1:27:45.639 a canvas manny and fold it up real nice, like yeah, manny, 1:27:45.640 --> 1:27:50.519 petty sort, you're tracking, you're tracking? Help me out here. 1:27:50.960 --> 1:27:52.040 Yeah, no, that's accurate. 1:27:52.120 --> 1:27:53.040 I don't know what you don't know. 1:27:53.160 --> 1:27:56.760 My theory is decker like when you lash down at 1:27:57.240 --> 1:28:01.200 decker saddle, say with a YETI cool, And then you 1:28:01.240 --> 1:28:03.320 can crow's foot it to really lash it down. You 1:28:03.320 --> 1:28:05.479 can bump into a lot more trees and have it 1:28:05.520 --> 1:28:09.479 stays stay set. Compared to Sawbucks, addles might move around 1:28:09.479 --> 1:28:11.599 a little bit more or get loose. 1:28:12.320 --> 1:28:12.800 I don't know. 1:28:13.520 --> 1:28:16.160 I've never some pretty steep country. 1:28:15.960 --> 1:28:18.720 Well steep maybe how thick is it? 1:28:18.720 --> 1:28:21.920 It's pretty thick. Well, it sounds like. 1:28:24.360 --> 1:28:26.599 I guess whatever style floats your boat. 1:28:26.800 --> 1:28:29.639 I know that you can pack real awkward loads with deckers. 1:28:29.680 --> 1:28:30.839 They're a lot more versatile. 1:28:31.000 --> 1:28:34.519 Yeah, we would pack raft frames sixteen foot raft rames 1:28:35.040 --> 1:28:37.040 them on the uphill side. 1:28:37.280 --> 1:28:40.880 Okay, yeah, we just don't take that stuff. So yeah, 1:28:41.120 --> 1:28:41.679 very awkward? 1:28:42.280 --> 1:28:43.880 Are you mostly deer? Mostly elk? 1:28:44.400 --> 1:28:50.080 I've done it all sheep, mountain goat deer elk, not 1:28:50.160 --> 1:28:54.800 grizzly bear, but everything else. Uh no, never have a 1:28:54.800 --> 1:28:56.800 guated black bears. Actually kind of got burned out on 1:28:56.840 --> 1:28:57.719 the bear thing, so. 1:28:57.800 --> 1:28:59.960 Oh, messing with bears like a person gets a job 1:29:00.040 --> 1:29:01.160 to ice cream shop, then. 1:29:01.040 --> 1:29:05.320 I don't like ice cream no more, exactly exactly the 1:29:05.400 --> 1:29:07.080 same reason I don't eat Mexican FID. 1:29:07.880 --> 1:29:10.839 And you're and you're looking for your ear between careers. 1:29:10.840 --> 1:29:14.639 Now you know I'm doing construction, but I'm definitely open 1:29:14.760 --> 1:29:18.800 to doing something that benefits wildlife. I don't want the 1:29:18.840 --> 1:29:21.839 best thing that I've done for wildlife to be catching 1:29:21.880 --> 1:29:23.040 and killing bears. 1:29:23.280 --> 1:29:26.599 So what drove you to do? You mind saying why 1:29:26.600 --> 1:29:29.679 did you leave the state agency in Wyoming fishing game. 1:29:30.080 --> 1:29:32.840 I was just really personally conflicted with some of the 1:29:32.960 --> 1:29:36.599 management decisions that were being made. You know, So there 1:29:36.640 --> 1:29:39.719 were a lot of reasons I was. I was super burnout. 1:29:40.040 --> 1:29:42.280 If I had to give one more bear safety talk, 1:29:42.360 --> 1:29:47.280 I was gonna suck start a forty four? God what 1:29:47.400 --> 1:29:48.040 or bear spray? 1:29:48.160 --> 1:29:51.040 What would be at what would be an area of management? Like, 1:29:51.080 --> 1:29:53.320 what would be like an area of management that you 1:29:53.360 --> 1:29:55.360 would find conflict. You don't need to tell me the 1:29:55.400 --> 1:29:57.559 exact conflict, but when you say that, what do you mean? 1:29:58.880 --> 1:29:59.360 What do you mean? 1:29:59.400 --> 1:30:00.240 What do you mean? Like? 1:30:00.320 --> 1:30:04.600 Do you mean the way they sat harvest objectives? 1:30:05.280 --> 1:30:05.400 Oh? 1:30:05.960 --> 1:30:08.360 The way they where I had conflict? Or was it 1:30:08.439 --> 1:30:10.439 like administrative issues? You know? 1:30:11.920 --> 1:30:14.639 Yeah, it was leadership and it I just didn't feel 1:30:14.720 --> 1:30:20.040 like relocation and removal decisions were really consistent. 1:30:20.240 --> 1:30:22.600 So god, oh on the bear question, yeah, it's like 1:30:22.640 --> 1:30:24.360 how you're handling individual bears. 1:30:24.640 --> 1:30:28.280 Yeah, yeah, you know, I'd had a certain standard with 1:30:28.400 --> 1:30:32.479 my old boss, and I just felt like it wasn't 1:30:32.520 --> 1:30:32.880 the same. 1:30:35.520 --> 1:30:37.800 Do you is my last question for you? Do you 1:30:38.479 --> 1:30:40.840 give me your personal take? I like, like came in 1:30:40.880 --> 1:30:43.120 so hot and heavy on delisting. What's your personal take? 1:30:43.160 --> 1:30:43.799 On delisting. 1:30:45.120 --> 1:30:49.960 Hmmm. I think it's the best thing to keep states 1:30:50.000 --> 1:30:53.280 into managing bears, which is probably the best thing for 1:30:53.479 --> 1:30:56.960 the people on the landscape. And I also think hunting 1:30:57.120 --> 1:31:02.200 is a positive because it creates its advocates for wildlife, 1:31:02.280 --> 1:31:06.840 creates advocates for bears. People right now say there's too 1:31:06.880 --> 1:31:09.400 many bears on the landscape, but as soon as you 1:31:09.439 --> 1:31:11.559 start hunting them, they'll be like, I don't know where 1:31:11.560 --> 1:31:16.400 all the big bears have gone. These guys are hunting 1:31:16.439 --> 1:31:19.520 too many. It's a non residence. 1:31:19.760 --> 1:31:22.120 Yeah, it'll just be some other boogeyman. 1:31:22.400 --> 1:31:23.679 Yeah, yeah, that's a good point. 1:31:23.720 --> 1:31:29.000 Man. So, but they continue to expand. And a big 1:31:29.040 --> 1:31:34.679 issue that the court see is that genetic connectivity between 1:31:34.800 --> 1:31:39.280 the GYE and the NCDE, and right now they're only 1:31:39.320 --> 1:31:43.439 thirty six miles apart. And I think that whether you 1:31:43.560 --> 1:31:47.559 delist or not, I think they eventually make that connectivity. 1:31:48.520 --> 1:31:50.479 But there was a bear that showed up in the 1:31:50.479 --> 1:31:56.120 Big Horns two years ago actually, and you know that 1:31:56.160 --> 1:32:00.599 bear was removed ethanized right away. And I think they're 1:32:00.640 --> 1:32:03.960 going to continue to expand whether you try to contain 1:32:04.000 --> 1:32:04.479 them or not. 1:32:04.760 --> 1:32:06.400 Oh, was that a containment decision? 1:32:08.880 --> 1:32:13.360 Social acceptance, you know, but we've caught and killed a 1:32:13.400 --> 1:32:16.679 lot of bears over the years, and you're just trying 1:32:16.720 --> 1:32:19.760 to contain them into the absorcos. This year, they'll hit 1:32:19.840 --> 1:32:25.879 seventy bears have died in the Elstone ecosystem, and probably 1:32:25.920 --> 1:32:30.040 forty of those will be management removals. And you got 1:32:30.080 --> 1:32:36.800 everything from bears getting killed in irrigation canals, there were 1:32:37.000 --> 1:32:41.519 bears electrocuted. There's bears that get hit by vehicles, like 1:32:41.560 --> 1:32:44.240 three ninety nine obviously, so. 1:32:46.080 --> 1:32:47.439 Seventy to one calendar year. 1:32:47.720 --> 1:32:49.400 Yeah, I think it'll be a record year this year. 1:32:49.640 --> 1:32:52.360 Montana's at twenty eight right now. 1:32:54.160 --> 1:32:57.280 I don't think it's over yet. There's still bears out. 1:33:00.439 --> 1:33:03.200 One of the uh one of the arguments I heard 1:33:03.240 --> 1:33:06.320 from when I talked about I was joking and I 1:33:06.439 --> 1:33:08.920 half joking about Montana chickening out on the bear hunt. 1:33:08.920 --> 1:33:10.519 But one of the things they brought up is they 1:33:10.560 --> 1:33:18.920 had no They felt that their quota would get hit 1:33:19.000 --> 1:33:24.120 by non hunting purposes and if they did a hunt. 1:33:24.600 --> 1:33:27.800 This is kind of like the logic, right, Yeah. 1:33:27.360 --> 1:33:29.799 If they did a hunt and killed a couple bears, 1:33:31.200 --> 1:33:34.479 they would burn up their quota and then they wouldn't 1:33:34.479 --> 1:33:36.840 be able to do bear management on problem bears because 1:33:36.840 --> 1:33:39.160 they would have already hit their human Cause quota. 1:33:41.640 --> 1:33:42.840 Doesn't sound unreasonable. 1:33:43.040 --> 1:33:45.880 Fee feels more across that bridge when you come to it. 1:33:46.400 --> 1:33:50.639 Yeah, I think again, it's what you what the number 1:33:50.680 --> 1:33:53.960 you believe is in the ecosystem. And the reason Wyoming 1:33:54.080 --> 1:33:57.720 was going to be so high is because twelve of 1:33:57.760 --> 1:34:01.120 those bears were going to be outside the demographic monitoring area, 1:34:01.200 --> 1:34:03.400 so they weren't even counted towards the population. 1:34:03.600 --> 1:34:06.160 Got it, got. 1:34:05.960 --> 1:34:09.719 It, you know. And the DMA is about twenty thousand 1:34:09.800 --> 1:34:13.799 square miles and bear distribution right now is about fifty 1:34:13.880 --> 1:34:14.920 thousand square miles. 1:34:15.800 --> 1:34:21.720 Oh, it's a grizzly coming to a neighborhood near you. 1:34:22.520 --> 1:34:26.000 Yeah. So everywhere I would go, people go, there's kids 1:34:26.000 --> 1:34:28.040 in the neighborhood. You got to get this bear out 1:34:28.040 --> 1:34:30.040 of here, you know. And then one lady called me 1:34:30.080 --> 1:34:32.960 and she goes, there's old people in this neighborhood. You 1:34:33.040 --> 1:34:35.320 got to get this bear out of here. I'm like, Oh, 1:34:35.360 --> 1:34:38.519 there's no appropriate age to live with a bear. 1:34:38.920 --> 1:34:40.880 There's two things that are going to happen. I like 1:34:40.880 --> 1:34:44.640 to joke about golfers and Montana is uniquely created a 1:34:44.640 --> 1:34:50.680 golfer Gophers. No, I believe that someday Montana will have 1:34:50.720 --> 1:34:54.720 a golfer get mall about golfing, oh in Whitefish. 1:34:55.320 --> 1:34:58.280 Yeah, probably at Meadow Lake Resort, Columbia Fall the big 1:34:58.280 --> 1:34:58.880 scot they. 1:34:58.800 --> 1:35:00.559 Called one on a golf course down the bitter. 1:35:00.880 --> 1:35:03.240 Yeah, we will have. It'll be like it'll be I 1:35:03.240 --> 1:35:05.680 hope he doesn't get it bad. If he gets a 1:35:05.760 --> 1:35:10.439 bad I'll feel bad. But I I uh, it'll be 1:35:10.479 --> 1:35:12.439 an interesting day when we have a golfer get malb 1:35:13.160 --> 1:35:14.280 digging through the rough looking. 1:35:16.960 --> 1:35:18.880 It's probably not gonna be a good golfer because he's 1:35:18.880 --> 1:35:20.519 gonna be sticking to the fairways. 1:35:20.520 --> 1:35:22.240 And yeah, he's gonna be down to the dick. He's 1:35:22.240 --> 1:35:23.800 gonna be down to the creek bottom looking for his 1:35:23.840 --> 1:35:24.320 golf ball. 1:35:24.320 --> 1:35:25.920 Another good reason to work on your backswing. 1:35:26.320 --> 1:35:28.519 We're gonna have a golfer, get Mall, and that's going 1:35:28.600 --> 1:35:32.200 to change public opinion. And then for whatever reason, like 1:35:32.240 --> 1:35:32.879 we have a little. 1:35:32.720 --> 1:35:36.479 Mountain range right here in town Bridgers, Uh, you know, 1:35:36.560 --> 1:35:37.160 not right here. 1:35:37.160 --> 1:35:39.559 I mean it's way bigger than that. But it toes 1:35:39.600 --> 1:35:43.880 off like this, you know, toes off into town and man, 1:35:43.880 --> 1:35:44.680 there's grizzlies right. 1:35:44.640 --> 1:35:47.720 Across the highway, I know, thirty six miles. 1:35:47.560 --> 1:35:50.320 And it's like, at some point in time, this is 1:35:50.320 --> 1:35:52.960 we have this real popular hiking trail called the m Yeah, 1:35:53.000 --> 1:35:57.840 it's not out of the it's not out of it's 1:35:57.840 --> 1:36:00.360 like a reasonable thing that someone's gonna get scratch on 1:36:00.439 --> 1:36:03.839 the m Hill. I feel like that'll impact public opinion 1:36:04.560 --> 1:36:06.800 when a golf forgets it. Yeah. 1:36:06.800 --> 1:36:10.479 I mean there is in Missoula the Rattlesnake Wilderness right there. 1:36:11.040 --> 1:36:12.720 You know, you can take a city bus to it, 1:36:12.880 --> 1:36:14.760 and they had a sow and cubs that set up 1:36:14.800 --> 1:36:16.600 in one of the first gulches there. That's like a 1:36:16.600 --> 1:36:20.040 really popular mountain biking area. But I remember going to 1:36:20.080 --> 1:36:23.519 an event and there's a bear biologist there talking about 1:36:23.640 --> 1:36:27.720 grizzlies coming into the Missoula area, and he's like, you know, 1:36:27.760 --> 1:36:30.280 they're in Gold Creek, they're down on the golf courses 1:36:30.320 --> 1:36:33.840 in the bitter Root, they're in the Rattlesnake. And he said, 1:36:34.920 --> 1:36:37.400 I would be surprised if in five years there aren't 1:36:37.760 --> 1:36:45.080 sort of resident known bear families, you know, population groups 1:36:45.160 --> 1:36:48.120 here and there in the city around the city. 1:36:48.160 --> 1:36:50.280 I should say, I don't want people to think I'm 1:36:50.280 --> 1:36:52.800 bringing that up like a golfer getting scratched. I'm not 1:36:52.840 --> 1:36:54.679 bringing this up as a thing that I'm worried about, 1:36:56.880 --> 1:36:58.800 and I don't think it's a negative. I mean, I'm 1:36:58.800 --> 1:37:01.400 not the golfer get scratched. I'm not saying I want, 1:37:01.439 --> 1:37:03.320 I don't want. I think I'd love it if we 1:37:03.360 --> 1:37:05.679 had bears. I'd like if there's grizzlies all over town, 1:37:08.200 --> 1:37:12.400 like go to Anchorage. Yeah for sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 1:37:12.680 --> 1:37:17.000 I like them. Yeah, I'm not an anti bear guy whatsoever. Right, 1:37:17.040 --> 1:37:19.559 I love the bears. I like seeing them. I get 1:37:19.560 --> 1:37:21.439 excited I see him anyway. You never I never meet 1:37:21.439 --> 1:37:24.639 anybody who's bummed out that they saw a grizzly. Yeah, 1:37:25.040 --> 1:37:25.719 I love them. 1:37:25.840 --> 1:37:28.599 As soon as you get mauled, people's attitude sure changes. 1:37:28.720 --> 1:37:30.519 I love them. I just want it to go. I 1:37:30.560 --> 1:37:32.600 want to be that there's a bunch of bears, and 1:37:32.600 --> 1:37:35.000 I want it to be that there's there's a state 1:37:35.080 --> 1:37:37.160 managed and there's a tag draw. That's what I want. 1:37:37.680 --> 1:37:42.000 Yeah, everybody thinks about their self interest, right, especially me. Yeah, 1:37:43.080 --> 1:37:46.080 I think it's the story that you that you portray 1:37:46.120 --> 1:37:50.960 into the future. Here how people paint bears. So three 1:37:51.080 --> 1:37:53.120 ninety nine is a great example, Like you could paint 1:37:53.160 --> 1:37:56.439 her as a bear that mould people, or you could 1:37:56.439 --> 1:37:59.880 paint her as the biggest advocate for bears in the 1:38:00.120 --> 1:38:03.880 mm hmm in the world. So yeah, future bears is 1:38:04.360 --> 1:38:05.080 up to the public. 1:38:05.160 --> 1:38:08.960 Really. Yeah, and my you know, you mentioned like everybody 1:38:09.000 --> 1:38:12.679 wants what their own self interest is. I should clarify that. Uh, 1:38:13.000 --> 1:38:15.479 I'm not gonna draw a Grizzly bear tag. I live 1:38:15.520 --> 1:38:19.360 in a state that one had they done, I don't 1:38:19.400 --> 1:38:21.320 know that. I orn't even put in for the tag. Yeah, 1:38:22.520 --> 1:38:26.320 uh we didn't do it. If we did one, you're 1:38:26.320 --> 1:38:27.679 not gonna draw it. I mean, what are the odds 1:38:27.680 --> 1:38:29.880 you're gonna draw it? You know. It's like I've been 1:38:29.960 --> 1:38:33.240 applying for big horn sheep tag for decades, haven't drawn 1:38:33.280 --> 1:38:33.679 one yet. 1:38:33.720 --> 1:38:36.120 I a lot. 1:38:36.560 --> 1:38:39.400 No, not not like, yeah, you get you're not gonna draw, 1:38:39.520 --> 1:38:41.360 Like the draws are gonna be slim. So it's not 1:38:41.400 --> 1:38:44.920 like it's not like I feel that this is my pathway. Yeah, 1:38:45.040 --> 1:38:47.080 I mean I hunt the last every year. This isn't 1:38:47.120 --> 1:38:49.479 my like, I'm not pursuing this as because it's my 1:38:49.560 --> 1:38:52.040 personal pathway to getting a Grizzly. It's like it's not 1:38:52.080 --> 1:38:55.080 gonna happen. I'm not going to get a grizzly in Montana. 1:38:55.080 --> 1:38:56.640 I'm not gonna get a grizzy in Idahol. I'm not 1:38:56.640 --> 1:38:59.439 gonna get a grizzy in Wyoming. This isn't all me, 1:39:00.320 --> 1:39:03.920 you know, with some like Machiavellian plan by which I'll 1:39:03.960 --> 1:39:06.960 be able to hunt grizzlies in my neighborhood. It's like, 1:39:07.120 --> 1:39:11.040 just as an advocate four hunters, and as an advocate 1:39:11.120 --> 1:39:14.880 for state management, and as an advocate for responsible use 1:39:14.920 --> 1:39:19.720 of renewable resources, here's an animal that that people, that 1:39:19.840 --> 1:39:24.040 has was historically a game animal that has people that 1:39:24.160 --> 1:39:26.640 there's people that hunt them in other places, there's a 1:39:26.720 --> 1:39:31.720 desire to hunt them. Hunting them is not incompatible with 1:39:32.000 --> 1:39:35.719 having a stable population, as we've demonstrated with mountain lions, 1:39:35.840 --> 1:39:39.080 black bears, white tailed deer, mule deer, elk moose, big 1:39:39.120 --> 1:39:41.160 orange sheep, mountain goats. I could go on and on. 1:39:41.920 --> 1:39:44.560 It's not incompatible. I don't know why there should be 1:39:44.600 --> 1:39:45.080 any different. 1:39:45.920 --> 1:39:46.800 This guy's put in. 1:39:50.040 --> 1:39:51.640 You know what I'll do right now? You know what 1:39:51.640 --> 1:39:55.000 I'm gonna do right now now, I'm gonna tell you something. 1:39:55.080 --> 1:39:57.479 Right now, I'm gonna tell you something right now, just 1:39:57.520 --> 1:40:00.479 because you said that, I promise I won't put in. Okay, 1:40:00.640 --> 1:40:04.320 for how long ever, I won't. 1:40:04.120 --> 1:40:04.400 Put it in. 1:40:05.080 --> 1:40:05.760 I won't put in. 1:40:06.000 --> 1:40:07.000 It's a true advocate. 1:40:07.479 --> 1:40:09.200 And you go scroll the records and see if you 1:40:09.280 --> 1:40:10.680 ever see me put in, I won't put in. 1:40:11.320 --> 1:40:12.599 I got friends I'll call. 1:40:13.120 --> 1:40:16.960 I'm not going to put it. I said one time before, 1:40:17.080 --> 1:40:20.360 like to talk about in drilling an ant war. Yeah, 1:40:20.400 --> 1:40:21.880 And people are like, oh yeah, just because you hunt 1:40:21.920 --> 1:40:23.760 up there all the time. I'm like, okay, if I 1:40:23.760 --> 1:40:25.920 could sign a contract that said they won't drill an 1:40:26.040 --> 1:40:28.799 war but I can't ever go there, I would sign. 1:40:28.640 --> 1:40:32.360 The contract right me too, I'm not going there. 1:40:32.439 --> 1:40:34.240 Yeah, it's like okay, fine, I need to go there, 1:40:34.320 --> 1:40:37.720 just whatever. That's fine. And if I had to sign 1:40:37.760 --> 1:40:41.280 a contract, we'll dlist and turn over to State management 1:40:41.280 --> 1:40:43.160 and create a hunting season tomorrow, but you have to 1:40:43.200 --> 1:40:45.639 agree that you'll never apply for a tag. I'd be like, okay, cool, 1:40:47.960 --> 1:40:48.960 that's not what it is for me. 1:40:49.680 --> 1:40:52.760 I think the real question here is can you get 1:40:53.080 --> 1:40:57.960 bears off the list? Can you have state management without 1:40:58.160 --> 1:41:02.200 people continuing to sue and and tear down the ESA, 1:41:02.400 --> 1:41:05.439 or do you have to change the ESA in order 1:41:05.560 --> 1:41:08.400 to get animals delisted, and I think that would be 1:41:08.439 --> 1:41:12.320 horrible if if you don't get bears off the list. 1:41:12.840 --> 1:41:16.360 You know, That's why my advice to people who support 1:41:16.360 --> 1:41:19.880 the ESA is to stop effing around with the essay, 1:41:20.280 --> 1:41:23.800 what weaponizing it, because you're gonna, you're gonna, you're gonna 1:41:23.800 --> 1:41:26.559 do You're gonna do to the essay what they did 1:41:26.600 --> 1:41:30.479 to the spot at owl. Like the spot at Owl 1:41:30.600 --> 1:41:33.960 used to be an owl, yeah, and then it became 1:41:34.040 --> 1:41:39.280 a symbol of overreach. Right, you're gonna now create You're 1:41:39.320 --> 1:41:42.160 gonna be like you have here. You sit like let's 1:41:42.160 --> 1:41:45.720 say you were like Joey ESA, Right, you're like the 1:41:45.920 --> 1:41:50.200 diehard defender of the ESA. My advice to you stop 1:41:50.280 --> 1:41:54.320 weaponizing the ESA. Then delist that bear which is a 1:41:54.400 --> 1:42:00.840 hit recovery, which which hit recovery objectives twenty five years ago. Yeah, 1:42:00.840 --> 1:42:02.840 but and move on to what's next. 1:42:03.120 --> 1:42:04.760 The reason I brought up that bear in the Big 1:42:04.800 --> 1:42:07.960 Horns is that's in the DPS and that's unoccupied habitat. 1:42:08.600 --> 1:42:13.479 So you know, in theory, the ESA calls for bears 1:42:14.000 --> 1:42:16.479 moving into that suitable habitat. 1:42:16.120 --> 1:42:18.200 But they mapped out when they listed them. They mapped 1:42:18.240 --> 1:42:20.840 out recovery objectives and they hit recovery objectives twenty some 1:42:20.960 --> 1:42:21.360 years ago. 1:42:22.200 --> 1:42:23.520 Yeah that's true. 1:42:23.680 --> 1:42:29.919 Yeah, Okay, So why bother, why bother having an Endangered 1:42:29.920 --> 1:42:36.000 Species Act? Why bother making recovery objectives if it's just bullshit? Yeah, 1:42:36.040 --> 1:42:36.840 if you don't mean it. 1:42:37.360 --> 1:42:41.720 Yeah, it erodes public trust, no doubt about it. 1:42:42.240 --> 1:42:44.160 Two percent of the things that go on the ESA 1:42:44.280 --> 1:42:49.040 come off because of recovery. Okay, things will come off 1:42:49.040 --> 1:42:51.240 because they realize it wasn't warranted. Things will come off 1:42:51.240 --> 1:42:53.559 because they'll go extinct. Two percent of the things that 1:42:53.600 --> 1:42:55.840 go on the ESA come off because recovery. Here, you 1:42:55.880 --> 1:42:58.600 have a recovered thing. Why is it not celebrated? 1:43:00.160 --> 1:43:00.360 Right? 1:43:00.439 --> 1:43:04.000 They didn't bitch Like eagles came off, no problem, peregrine fault. 1:43:06.000 --> 1:43:07.920 But this one they just got to hold it tight 1:43:07.960 --> 1:43:11.040 to their chest, yep. Because it's not about the ESSA. 1:43:11.120 --> 1:43:12.840 It's a money maker, that's what it is. 1:43:13.640 --> 1:43:16.960 Yeah. So forget me saying I'm coming at it from 1:43:16.960 --> 1:43:18.680 a perspective of one hundred. I'm coming at it from 1:43:18.720 --> 1:43:20.720 a perspective of someone that wants to get on with 1:43:20.920 --> 1:43:24.920 UH to like salvage the ESA and not make it 1:43:24.960 --> 1:43:26.679 that it just is a thing of derision. 1:43:27.360 --> 1:43:28.799 Glad I bolstered your argument. 1:43:28.960 --> 1:43:31.920 No, thank you cut all that out, feel so I 1:43:31.960 --> 1:43:35.960 can just start saying that like I thought of it. 1:43:36.880 --> 1:43:38.559 Well man, thanks for coming on the show. 1:43:38.520 --> 1:43:40.479 Thanks for having me appreciate it. It's good to meet 1:43:40.520 --> 1:43:40.880 you guys. 1:43:40.960 --> 1:43:42.400 Is there anything that I that you wish you got 1:43:42.439 --> 1:43:43.679 to talk about that I asked about. 1:43:43.840 --> 1:43:45.639 I meant to talk about snaring bears. 1:43:46.000 --> 1:43:47.760 That's something I didn't talk tell me about that. 1:43:48.439 --> 1:43:51.000 So another way we catch them is with foot snares, 1:43:51.560 --> 1:43:56.240 and you use what's called an aldrewe spring, and you 1:43:57.880 --> 1:43:59.960 put the spring and a snare loop and you dig 1:44:00.080 --> 1:44:04.240 a hole and then you recreate the surfaces though it's 1:44:04.320 --> 1:44:07.840 just ground, and you try to get a bear to 1:44:07.880 --> 1:44:10.240 step in that. And that's a fun part of trapping. 1:44:10.600 --> 1:44:12.760 So how do you get him step in there? Hanging 1:44:12.800 --> 1:44:13.120 a bait? 1:44:14.120 --> 1:44:15.680 A lot of times you have a cubby set and 1:44:15.720 --> 1:44:21.280 you're trying to direct them into your set, but you're 1:44:21.320 --> 1:44:24.080 putting sticks, and bears don't like to step on sticks 1:44:24.120 --> 1:44:26.960 and hurt their feet, so you can kind of control 1:44:27.000 --> 1:44:29.080 their foot movement with those. 1:44:32.960 --> 1:44:35.400 When you're doing that, so he actually thinks he's putting 1:44:35.439 --> 1:44:36.960 his foot on the ground and his foot breaks through 1:44:37.000 --> 1:44:37.320 the ground. 1:44:37.520 --> 1:44:40.160 Yeah, and it hits this Yeah, it's a pit trap, 1:44:40.160 --> 1:44:43.840 but it hits this trigger and that trigger flings a 1:44:43.920 --> 1:44:47.679 spring and that pulls that snare cable tight. And the 1:44:47.680 --> 1:44:50.040 snare cable just has a little bracket that only slides 1:44:50.040 --> 1:44:52.799 one way, you know. And you caught a bear. 1:44:53.000 --> 1:44:55.240 And can you is he too messed up? Or can 1:44:55.240 --> 1:44:56.240 you release him? Oh? 1:44:56.280 --> 1:44:58.160 Yeah, no, you you release those bears. 1:44:58.240 --> 1:44:59.240 He's gotta be pissed. 1:44:59.360 --> 1:45:00.920 Do you get him on video when you do that? 1:45:01.560 --> 1:45:04.000 I got some sounds like a fun visual mm hmm. 1:45:04.080 --> 1:45:07.560 Got some pictures somewhere, I think. But he's pissed a 1:45:07.640 --> 1:45:10.160 lot of times they're trying to run off and they 1:45:10.240 --> 1:45:12.240 hit the end of that snare cable and they roll over. 1:45:12.400 --> 1:45:15.400 And sometimes they are pissed and they try to charge you. 1:45:15.840 --> 1:45:17.200 Yep, in regular trap. 1:45:17.200 --> 1:45:19.439 And you call that blocking, Yeah, exactly. 1:45:19.760 --> 1:45:23.719 Yeah. A bobcat trapper was explaining one time that people 1:45:23.720 --> 1:45:26.400 would use blocking for bobcats, but they don't realize this. 1:45:26.520 --> 1:45:30.080 Bobcats want to stand on little things, so they'd put 1:45:30.120 --> 1:45:33.679 little rocks to block, or put a log to block, 1:45:33.800 --> 1:45:36.280 But he wants to be on that. Yeah, so this guy, 1:45:36.439 --> 1:45:38.519 you know, you know to sycamore, you know, a sycamore ball. 1:45:38.560 --> 1:45:40.080 They don't live around here, but it's like that little 1:45:40.120 --> 1:45:43.960 poky little it's like a poky little seed pod. There's 1:45:44.000 --> 1:45:46.519 this trapper to he doesn't even live in that area, 1:45:46.520 --> 1:45:49.800 but he gets big things of those sycamore things because 1:45:49.800 --> 1:45:52.360 it's real spiky, and the cat don't want to put 1:45:52.360 --> 1:45:55.000 his foot on it. So then you can actually control 1:45:55.040 --> 1:45:57.240 his foot placement. But you put a stick there and 1:45:57.240 --> 1:46:01.960 that cat's like, oh sweet things. And missus the pants 1:46:01.960 --> 1:46:04.040 you're standing on, your blocking you know, the stuff that's 1:46:04.040 --> 1:46:05.760 supposed to keep them from wanting to do it. Yeah, 1:46:05.840 --> 1:46:09.760 so you want stuff that looks like uncomfortable for his foot. Interesting, 1:46:10.600 --> 1:46:13.960 keep that in mind. I might just go trap bears 1:46:13.960 --> 1:46:16.880 on my own, just for fun. Bear trapping. 1:46:17.000 --> 1:46:19.519 Yeah, whose ear tag is this? 1:46:21.680 --> 1:46:23.920 Well, dude, thanks thanks for coming out, man, I appreciate it. 1:46:24.000 --> 1:46:25.720 Yeah, thanks for having me, and good luck on your 1:46:25.840 --> 1:46:28.280 job hunt. Thanks appreciate that name. 1:46:28.400 --> 1:46:30.000 Name what line of work you want, because maybe someoneill 1:46:30.040 --> 1:46:30.880 call you and give you a job. 1:46:31.280 --> 1:46:33.680 Land conservation I think could be up my alley. I 1:46:33.680 --> 1:46:36.760 think that would be beneficial to wildlife. So should I 1:46:36.800 --> 1:46:38.160 throw out my email. Can I do that? 1:46:39.160 --> 1:46:41.800 They you can throw out your email if you want 1:46:41.800 --> 1:46:44.800 a bajillion people messaging you, or they can email loss 1:46:44.880 --> 1:46:45.679 Yeah yeah that's. 1:46:45.560 --> 1:46:47.280 Mine Wor they can also take through. 1:46:47.200 --> 1:46:47.720 His own job. 1:46:48.600 --> 1:46:49.479 Yep, that's true. 1:46:50.720 --> 1:46:53.639 My email is just Dusty dot Lassiter L A S 1:46:53.640 --> 1:46:57.280 S E T E R ten at Gmail. Looking for work, 1:46:57.479 --> 1:46:59.320 looking for work. I got a great job. I have 1:46:59.360 --> 1:47:02.559 a great boss, but I still want to do something 1:47:02.600 --> 1:47:03.639 that benefits wildlife. 1:47:04.760 --> 1:47:06.840 I got a construction project I might lay out in 1:47:06.880 --> 1:47:07.280 front of you. 1:47:07.320 --> 1:47:09.080 To I can handle it. 1:47:09.080 --> 1:47:11.600 It's in grizzly country. 1:47:10.479 --> 1:47:13.720 Yeah, I'm a mediocre carpenter. 1:47:13.280 --> 1:47:15.519 But that's what that's kind. I'm looking for. 1:47:18.040 --> 1:47:18.719 More of a painter. 1:47:20.920 --> 1:47:22.559 All right, man, thanks so much than. 1:47:23.960 --> 1:47:28.960 The fingers are told so cold that they burn. Were 1:47:29.160 --> 1:47:33.000 standing in the creek in our Burney. 1:47:34.479 --> 1:47:40.760 Just for me in a warm bomb. And then back to. 1:47:40.400 --> 1:48:06.719 The pros chasing cotton tail High. I was just ten, 1:48:06.920 --> 1:48:14.559 but High got to join his Carol protested Grandpa's firm. 1:48:15.560 --> 1:48:20.720 I've had him shooting since he was me. High. He 1:48:20.880 --> 1:48:23.320 sees tayd him. 1:48:25.400 --> 1:48:29.759 Then an apro close with the ball on the wind 1:48:30.960 --> 1:48:36.479 hot home tray and bring it in her round moved 1:48:36.600 --> 1:48:42.679 up ahead, just into the lane where case colored Steve 1:48:43.000 --> 1:48:49.080 has put two on the ground. Morning turn high and 1:48:49.400 --> 1:48:54.120 he was singing, came about to spill as a shot 1:48:54.280 --> 1:48:59.679 shell off Lou at its ord home, and I couldn't 1:48:59.840 --> 1:49:04.639 have off. We're in in fingers on the ema, lips 1:49:04.760 --> 1:49:05.960 turning blue. 1:49:07.000 --> 1:49:09.920 Ever, at the end. 1:49:10.000 --> 1:49:18.080 Of Novegeber, the memories all showver me, bitter sleep, goness, 1:49:18.439 --> 1:49:30.080 early morn, cotton tail hunting, afternoon targets, esteemed dinner feeds, 1:49:30.160 --> 1:49:35.240 forty hot people with cousins, and of those who have 1:49:35.680 --> 1:49:42.120 half forgotten, and all all harried, rarely so happy. 1:49:43.000 --> 1:49:46.559 House spoke first in me in the. 1:49:46.600 --> 1:49:58.879 Bond that was away back in my you. I watched 1:49:58.920 --> 1:50:04.920 it all changed through the heat. It's time we roll 1:50:05.640 --> 1:50:07.439 both bedrock. 1:50:06.960 --> 1:50:12.120 And bone and old age wilts. Even the most pierced. 1:50:13.800 --> 1:50:20.240 Grandpa we lost in the cold of Dember Carol. Few 1:50:20.600 --> 1:50:29.920 turns before, how bout farm when they couldn't remember. Nothing's 1:50:30.080 --> 1:50:35.400 the same anymore, Born God. 1:50:35.439 --> 1:50:38.120 Leave the old home lost. 1:50:37.840 --> 1:50:42.040 It shee You can hear the wind a whistle at too. 1:50:44.400 --> 1:50:49.600 She creaks, and she bones and all over chrown. But 1:50:49.760 --> 1:50:52.960 we'll get her looking brand new. 1:50:54.960 --> 1:50:57.920 Here at the end. 1:50:58.000 --> 1:51:05.360 Of November, memories all show over me bitter sweet, go 1:51:05.760 --> 1:51:18.080 his early morn cotton sail, hunting after new targets and skins, feeds, 1:51:18.160 --> 1:51:24.800 forty hot people, dozins, and of those who have half forgotten, 1:51:25.760 --> 1:51:32.680 brand all harriet, rarely so happy. Their housefold burst in 1:51:33.120 --> 1:51:37.799 and fed in the pond, swear ris up. 1:51:37.800 --> 1:51:43.640 A few kids on my own, maybe one day grandson to. 1:51:45.960 --> 1:51:49.840 How want the same hells with the hand on each 1:51:49.960 --> 1:51:53.240 shoulder open maybe week kick. 1:51:53.240 --> 1:51:59.440 Up, few ran over. They feel this place. 1:52:01.840 --> 1:52:08.840 Every at the end of November. Memory and all show 1:52:08.840 --> 1:52:12.200 over media, bitter sweet. 1:52:12.160 --> 1:52:18.519 As early morn, cant and tale afternoons. 1:52:18.560 --> 1:52:28.720 Targets speak, two feeds, forty hot people, cousins and of 1:52:29.000 --> 1:52:37.440 coles who have half forgotten, and all harried, rarely so happy. 1:52:37.840 --> 1:52:41.719 House foolhursted and made in the part